February 10, 2025 • 47 mins
Are you buying into the myth that love should just magically work? Forget fairy tales—real, lasting love takes effort, communication, and intention. In this episode, Charles and Dan break down the final chapter of The Man’s Guide to Women and uncover the science-backed secrets to making relationships last.
We dive into:
✅ The essential ingredient for a strong relationship: Trust
✅ Why conflict avoidance is ruining your connection
✅ The biggest myths about love (and how they set you up for failure)
✅ Small, daily habits to affair-proof your relationship
✅ The six-second kiss—does it really work?
🚀 Plus, we explore how relationship science can help men build better, more fulfilling partnerships. Whether you're in a relationship or looking for one, this episode is packed with practical, research-backed strategies to improve intimacy, communication, and connection.
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
📖 The Man’s Guide to Women by John Gottman, Julie Gottman, Doug Abrams, & Rachel Carlton Abrams
📖 Dating Essentials for Men by Robert Glover (our next book review!)
📖 Tiny Habits by BJ Fogg | Atomic Habits by James Clear
🔗 More episodes & resources: MindfullyMasculine.com
Connect With Us!
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📩 Get exclusive insights: Join our newsletter
📲 Follow us on Instagram: @MindfullyMasculine
If you loved this episode, leave us a 5-star review and share it with a friend! 🙌
#Relationships #Love #Dating #MensPersonalGrowth #MindfullyMasculine
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Charles (00:00):
If you're not communicating what your needs
are, you have no right to be madat anybody else.
I mean, yes, you've been withthis person perhaps for years
and years and years, and youfeel like maybe they should know
you and they should justunderstand what your needs are.
But that's still a tall order.
Even after many years, we can'tread minds.
Just yet, that feature in AIhasn't come out yet.
Dan (00:22):
Welcome back to the Mindfully Masculine Podcast.
This is Charles.
Okay, this is our last episodediscussing the man's guide to
women, and in this final episode, we will discuss trust and
communication in relationships,managing emotional expression,
expectations versus reality inrelationships, maintaining
connection in long-termrelationships and understanding
(00:45):
and supporting your partner, aswell as some other topics.
Please check out our website,mindfullymasculinecom, where you
can find our full audioepisodes, video episodes and any
other news or info that we wantto share.
Thanks and enjoy.
Good morning, charles.
How are you?
Hey, dan, I'm good.
Thanks, how are you.
I am doing.
Well, this is our second take oftrying to get this episode
(01:10):
recorded.
Today.
We had a little bit oftechnical challenges and then my
internet died, and now all ofthat really interesting weather
talk that we started out with islost forever.
I don't think we should eventry to reproduce that it's.
It would be.
That would be folly.
Um, okay, so let's dive intothe final chapter of our book,
(01:33):
the man's guide to women.
Um, this is chapter 15, Ibelieve it's called.
Uh, loving a woman for alifetime.
Uh, let's see yep stayingtogether loving a woman for a
lifetime.
Let's see Yep Staying together,loving a woman for a lifetime.
So we start out this chapterwith a really cool story about
Albert Einstein, who was up tosome pretty interesting things
(01:54):
outside of the nuclear weaponsdevelopment.
Charles (02:00):
Yeah Well, sounds like he liked setting off bombs in
his own life.
He really does.
Dan (02:04):
Yeah well, sounds like he liked setting off bombs in his
own life Based on.
He really does.
So the chat starts with thiscute little quote from him when
you trip over love, it is easyto get up, but when you fall in
love it is impossible to standagain.
Oh, he must have been a reallyromantic guy, huh, mm guy, huh.
(02:31):
Then it comes out that, uh,toward the end of his marriage.
Uh, his wife's name was maleva,m-i-l-e-v-a.
Maleva, I'm not sure how youpronounce that, I've not heard
it before.
Um, he, uh, toward the end ofthe marriage.
As things, I guess, werealready falling apart, he gave
her a list that she needed tofollow if she wanted to stick
with him oh wait, was this acrossroads?
Charles (02:46):
what was it?
What was made nicely?
Dan (02:48):
yeah, uh.
You'll make sure that myclothes and laundry are kept in
good order, that I received mythree meals a day regularly in
my room, that the bedroom andstudy are kept neat and that my
desk is left for my use only.
You will renounce all personalrelations with me insofar as
they are not completelynecessary for social reasons.
(03:09):
You will forgo me sitting athome with you or going out and
traveling with you.
So I'm not going to stick athome with you and I'm not going
to go out with you.
You'll not expect any intimacyfrom me, nor will you reproach
me in any way.
You'll stop talking to me if Irequest it and you'll leave my
bedroom or study immediatelywithout protest if I request it.
(03:33):
You will undertake not tobelittle me in front of our
children through words orbehavior.
That's the same list I give myhousekeeper.
I don't see the problem here.
You tell your housekeeper thatshe shouldn't expect any
intimacy with you.
Charles (03:46):
Exactly, I try, you know.
I said I make sure everybody'son the same page, you know, make
sure everything's crystal clear.
Dan (03:53):
Yeah, so she obviously leaves him in a matter of months
after he gives her that list.
And you know, I'm just I'mtired of of deifying these
intellectuals and you know,because he has a lot of cool
little quotes about love andrelationships and the nature of
genius and all this stuff andit's like, okay, yeah, but
(04:13):
you're also a crazy person whohas no idea what it takes to
salvage or maintain arelationship, and we should not
forget that there's a differencebetween living in reality and
you know this is basicallypoetry or prose that's never
been actually executed by himand in the real world.
Charles (04:32):
clearly, mains.
Dan (04:46):
And and then, you know, try to try to watch elon musk dance
or neil degrasse tyson tell ajoke, and it's like, oh, that's
right, you can just be reallygood at one thing and not at
other things.
Yeah, so so he, uh the gotmans,used that story to bring us into
the?
Uh, the idea of what it takesto make a relationship last a
(05:08):
lifetime, and what you have todo and what you should avoid
doing if, uh, if, you wantthings to be successful and not
just fall apart.
And the first thing that, uh,they remind us of in this
chapter is something that goesall the way back to the
beginning of the book, which ishow necessary it is for people
(05:29):
to trust each other if they'regoing to be in a relationship
together.
When you talk to unhappycouples, what is it that they
usually say is the problem withthe relationship?
(05:50):
Well, it's one or both of themthat say you know, I just don't,
I just can't count on the otherperson to be there for me when
I'm going to need them the most.
I don't know that they're goingto show up the way that I need
them to when the poop hits thefan.
Charles (06:04):
You can't have any kind of relationship in that
situation.
You can't have an employee bossrelationship, you can't have a
friendship relationship,nevermind a romantic
relationship, I think.
Dan (06:15):
Yeah, no, absolutely yeah, we've.
I mean, we've been doing thepodcast for three years now and
you know, if either of us werelike, well, it's Wednesday
morning, I wonder if Charles isgoing to jump on or if he's just
going to blow it off.
And I mean, and you've, you'vebeen, you've been in a business
partnership since what?
2005 or so, with, uh, with ourfriend Dick, and yeah, if, if
(06:37):
you couldn't just count on himto do the stuff he says he's
going to do when he's going todo it, then you know how can you
entrust your, your present andyour future to somebody you
can't right right, and then Imean that's the thing is.
Charles (06:48):
Then you can't focus on things you need to focus on.
If you're worried about, youknow, managing and doing the
basics for somebody else, yeah,and so how, how can you, uh, or
how does that trust break down?
Dan (07:05):
Um, but one of the ways, one of the biggest ways that it
breaks down is when one or bothpeople basically adopt conflict
avoidance as their primarystrategy in the relationship.
Meaning, I'm going to, you know, avoid rocking the boat at all
costs and try to live my life insuch a way that we never fight
(07:26):
or never have disagreements.
And, yeah, if you, if you adoptthat as your, as your
relationship strategy, thenyou're going to turn into an
untrustworthy person.
Charles (07:40):
Yeah, yeah, and I think that what that really kind of
thing?
I think that stems from peopletrying to avoid other people's
emotions, and I mean, a lot ofus have not, most of us have not
been taught how to manage ourown emotions, nevermind our own,
plus somebody else's who aren'texactly happy emotions.
(08:03):
So a lot of times it's, it'smuch easier to just not, you
know, to avoid the conflict and,you know, create your teeth and
hope for the best, and I thinka lot of us operate that way,
unfortunately.
Dan (08:18):
And yeah, and especially, I mean I, I see this in myself,
or at least I see this, thisimpulse in myself, and I think I
see this in myself, or at leastI see this impulse in myself
and I think other men canprobably relate to this as well
where, if you adopt this mindsetor this goal for yourself of I
am completely emotion-free, I amjust, I'm rational, I'm driven
(08:38):
by logic, and you try to treatyourself that way and you try to
show up in your relationshipsthat way, then all these
emotions that you're not lettingout, they're going to boil over
at some point.
And then you know it's reallyhard to argue that you're
completely logic andrationality-based when you're
(09:01):
punching holes in drywallbecause you're so frustrated
with your life and all thethings that you're refusing to
acknowledge.
Yep, so sure.
Um, yeah, that is.
That is definitely something toavoid, and so, as a result, you
have to be honest and bewilling to be honest with the
people in your life to say, hey,this, uh, what fill in the
(09:23):
blank, whatever it is, is aproblem for me.
I'm not feeling good about it,and I think we need to talk
about it and then give peoplethe chance and the opportunity
to meet your needs or to tellyou they're not going to meet
your needs, and either of thoseis an improvement over you just
keeping your needs to yourselfand building up resentment and
(09:46):
anger and jealousy and fill inthe blank over over time that we
all know is eventually going toboil over either either you
having some sort of an emotionaloutburst or you looking outside
of the relationship to haveyour needs met.
Charles (10:00):
Yeah, yeah.
And if you want to throw somelogic in here, then you really
should only be mad at yourself,because if you're not
communicating what your needsare, you have no right to be mad
at anybody else.
I mean, yes, you've been withthis person perhaps for years
and years and years, and youfeel like maybe they should know
you and they should justunderstand what your needs are.
But that's still a tall order,even after many years.
(10:21):
You know we can't read mindsjust yet, that you know that
feature in ai hasn't come outyet.
So, um, yeah, I think you know.
I think, really, if we're goingto put some, like I said, some
logic on this, you really needto turn, you know, the the
finger at yourself and say, hey,you know you're the one to
blame here.
You have no one to be mad atother than be frustrated with
(10:42):
yourself that you didn'tcommunicate when you should have
communicated.
Dan (10:47):
Yeah.
And the thing is, if you arespending your time, I mean, you
lose on it in two ways.
Number one, by not being honestabout what you need, you're not
giving your partner theopportunity to meet those needs.
And number two, you're also notrevealing who you really are to
(11:07):
your partner, so they're notgoing to feel as connected to
you.
And you know we all have thatneed, those needs for connection
, whether it's physicalconnection, being being in
proximity to other people, oremotional connection, sexual
connection.
We, we all want to feel thosethings in our relationships.
And if, if we don't get themafter long enough periods of
(11:30):
time, then we find a way to getthose needs met, whether that is
with emotional or or physicalaffairs with other people.
And so you know, I think, Ithink part of the trap we can
fall into is this idea, thissort of narrative that we've
been sold by.
You know, whether it's Disney,fairy tales or romantic comedies
(11:52):
, that you know, when you findthe right person, you're not
going to have to tell them whatyou need, what you need, they'll
just know.
And that is certainly not trueand it doesn't work that way.
It doesn't work that way, andthat feeling of well, if I have
to tell you what I need and youdo it, then you're only meeting
my needs because I told you.
(12:13):
It's like, yeah, exactly, andthat's okay, I'm still.
You know, if you have a partnerthat's willing to meet your
needs because you told them whatyour needs are, that's still
loving you and that's stillsomething that you should feel
good about.
But you know, if you've gotproblems in your own issues from
history of other relationshipsor because of what you think
(12:35):
love and romance is supposed tolook like, based on culture,
then yeah, you're gonna feellike, oh, but that's not enough.
It's not enough for me to tellmy partner what I need and then
they meet the need, but but yeah, that's how slowly the work.
Charles (12:47):
I got a question for you.
I'd love to hear your feedbackon this.
One time a friend of a girlthat I was dating at the time it
was one of her close friends Ihad basically put special
anniversaries and dates andthings that related to our
relationship on my calendar andI'd get a reminder.
When she told her friend aboutit, she thought that was
(13:10):
horrible, it was not romanticthat.
You know, I have thesereminders and I should just, I
guess, just memorize all thedates of all the different
things and and because I hadthese calendar reminders, and
(13:31):
because I had these calendarreminders, basically it took
away from I guess how specialanything was when we would
celebrate them.
Dan (13:34):
Curious to hear what you have to say about that.
I think you know what I have tosay about that.
That's ridiculous.
Charles (13:38):
I mean, that's a very childlike view of the world and
of relationships, and I meanreally's it's silly, but, but I
think it plays into that wholeromanticized fantasy land that
we are inundated with with, youknow, romantic comedies and, and
you know, disney, princessesand this, this magical,
(14:00):
unbelievable standard for, forthis pretty charming I guess, I
don't know.
I would love to hear somefeedback from some ladies to
hear hey, it's, you know, isthis, is this a common point of
view or was this a one-off?
Dan (14:15):
yeah, well, ask your girlfriend, I'll ask mine and
we'll see what they say.
Yeah, uh, yeah, it is.
It is quite ridiculous to Imean, listen, I, I wouldn't even
know what the date was oftoday's.
I wouldn't know today's date ifI didn't look on a calendar, so
much less know that today isalso, you know, the anniversary
(14:35):
of our first date.
Like, yeah, if it's not for forthe calendar telling me that
today is wednesday, january 22nd, I would have no idea it is.
And then to go a second stepand know, oh, not only is it the
22nd, but it's the fourth monthanniversary of our first date.
That's, that's ridiculous.
Charles (14:53):
Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure if it was supposed to be
that granular, so to to nottotally blow this person out of
the water Not to straw, man them.
Yeah, I would say there wasprobably like more significant
dates, like a year anniversary,what that day was, because we do
remember like importantpeople's birthdays in our lives
usually.
So you know, that being said, Ithink it was more, not a, you
(15:18):
know, three and a half weekanniversary, that it was a
little bit more significantdates, I mean, and I had like,
above and beyond there, you know, some more granular dates, but
everything was on the calendar.
Dan (15:33):
Okay, so I'm going to let me let me jump on the other side
of the argument for a second.
And yeah, there's, there's abit that Jimmy Kimmel does on
his show where he'll go out onthe street and meet, like a
tourist who's visiting Hollywood, who's there with their son or
their daughter, and then they'llask the dad questions that I
believe they should definitelyknow the answer to and they
(15:54):
don't.
So it's like, yeah, if if youneed a Google reminder on your
calendar to tell you that it'syour son or daughter's birthday,
then yeah, or even yourpartner's birthday, then okay.
Yes, I would say to your pointthere there's a line between
what you should know and whatyou should not know.
And you know, I would say, yourpartner's birthday, and you
(16:17):
know.
However, obviously, if it's yourwedding anniversary, you should
know that.
If it's still the anniversary,if you're not married, and it's
the anniversary of your firstdate, then yeah, I'd say you
probably should know that too,and your kids' birthdays.
But beyond that, I think it isa little ridiculous.
I think you should know.
(16:38):
I agree with that.
Define the big ones, I guess,is what's up for debate, and I
would limit it to weddinganniversary, anniversary of
either your first date or thefirst time you define yourselves
as a couple, and then kids'birthdays and that's pretty much
it.
Charles (16:56):
So here's a question I'm going to throw it out here.
Do you know your girlfriend'sphone number?
Dan (17:04):
Have you memorized?
Charles (17:06):
No, certainly not, friend's phone number have you
memorized?
Uh, no, sir, I have not, I'mgonna.
I'm gonna say I and I have notfor mine so I barely I don't
know.
Dan (17:12):
I mean, yeah, your phone number, rob's phone number,
renata's phone number?
I don't know any of them offthe top.
I don't know.
Yeah, no, I have to look themup in my phone.
Yeah, that's, that's a littlecrazy these days.
Whose numbers do you know?
Charles (17:25):
So the ones where they've been around for so many
years.
It was before we wereconstantly had the matter of
fingertips.
So, like I know, I stillremember my phone numbers as a
kid.
For the house line, yeah, I doneed a sister's cell phone
number, but, you know, I know mydad's home number, but I don't
(17:46):
know his cell phone number.
So, yeah, yeah, I thinkhonestly, and I know my number.
Dan (17:57):
Yeah, I know my own numbers too, but that's pretty much.
That's pretty much it as far asphone numbers go, I you know
it's not like it was beforewhere, even if you just had a
number stored in your cell phone, well, if that phone didn't
boot up one day and it turnedinto a paperweight, then all
your numbers were just gone.
So for that reason it madesense to keep an address book as
(18:19):
well.
But we're moving past thosedays.
If one cell phone dies, thenit's all you know in iCloud, so
it doesn't much matter.
But, right, yeah, I, and Ireally think you know again,
except for those reallyimportant dates, the more stuff
that you can outsource from yourbrain onto other places to keep
(18:43):
track of data, the more, themore memory you got in your
brain for other stuff.
So, um, I'm in favor of that,but yeah, I guess, I guess it
really comes down to each coupledeciding okay, here are the
things that are important andhere are the things that you
know it's okay to not havememorized.
But yeah, when I, when I hearstories of dads who don't know
(19:05):
their kids' birthdays, who don'tknow what grade their kids are
in, um, stuff like that, I Ithink that's a little ridiculous
, like if you're outsourcingthat much to, oh, my wife will
just keep it in her brain, so Idon't need to.
Yeah, I could see that as beinga source of, uh, resentment and
I would probably feel the sameway.
All right, so we get a nicelittle list of how to affair
(19:29):
proof your relationship and somethings that you can integrate
into your schedule and as wellas your relationship practice
that will make it a little lesslikely that your partner's needs
are going unmet for so longthat they start looking to other
sources.
The first one is the six secondkiss.
(19:51):
Is that something that you'recurrently practicing?
It is.
Is it really?
Is it the Gottman's, or becausethat's just what you do?
No, because of this book,because of his book.
Charles (19:59):
It's not like, yeah, I didn't write this book.
I did clothes on my own.
Yeah, I steal stuff.
No, yeah, absolutely, and itworks, and I feel I'll be more
connected when I do it.
Okay, how long have you beendoing it?
Probably since the first time Iheard that that was actually.
You recommended this book to mea while ago.
(20:20):
I remember I went through it.
Yeah, probably almost a yearago.
Dan (20:28):
So, um, as soon as I heard that I, I was like that's a
great idea and yeah, so I meanthey, they say it works as long
as it's you're already, as longas I don't have to yeah yeah.
Charles (20:40):
Yeah, it works as long as I'm not a bad breath, or.
What's interesting is, guys,here's something to think about.
I'm just bringing this upbecause I was feeling a little
insecure about it, because I waslike she doesn't want to kiss
me and I'm like I just put amint in my mouth.
I know I've got good breath.
I'm like now my brain isspinning and thinking, oh, maybe
there's something wrong.
No, no, no, no.
(21:01):
She thought she had bad breath.
She did.
Oh good, she thought she did.
So it was less than the sixseconds that I was going for.
So just keep in mind, it's notall about you.
There could be other thingsgoing on, right?
Dan (21:16):
Yeah, and another thing that I think might be a good
idea is, if you're not all thatphysically affectionate outside
of the bedroom, you need to makeit clear that, uh, you're not
trying to initiate sex justbecause you're giving the six
(21:36):
second kiss, hello or goodbye.
Charles (21:38):
well, that's a good point uh, because absolutely
yeah, if that's not part of yourstandard routine.
Dan (21:46):
Right, Sure Now.
Do you generally do open mouthor closed mouth?
Charles (21:54):
Oh, I do it all, baby.
Dan (21:57):
Because I'm just thinking, you know if you're saying good,
you know if you guys have met upat a restaurant after work
where you've met in the parkinglot, you know, maybe an open
mouth kiss in the parking lot isnot the way to go.
Charles (22:06):
Well, the thing is it's I don't know, I I feel weird.
Me personally feel I feel weirdif it's a closed mouth kiss for
more than like I honestly, youknow, with a girlfriend it's
it's not going to ever be aclosed mouth kiss, unless it's
like a kiss on the cheek orsomething, I't know.
Okay, fair enough, I just yeah,I don't know, open mouth it'd
be so awkward for me to standthere for six seconds with a
(22:29):
closed mouth how about thisquestion then full tongue or no
tongue?
it gets involved.
It gets involved when necessary.
Dan (22:38):
I read the room it's just, you're the only one of us doing.
You're the only one of us doingthis right now.
Charles (22:42):
I say the expert yeah, listen, it's not something where
somebody's gonna walk by and gooh my god, you two get a room.
Dan (22:48):
It's not like, it's not over the top, like that well,
I'm not currently doing this,but I will, uh, I will.
I will try to add it to my, uh,my repertoire and see, uh, um,
I'm, yeah, my girlfriend likeskissing, so I'm sure she'll,
she'll be down, yeah, definitely, um, okay.
Second one is date her.
Just because you now, uh, livetogether or spend a lot of time
(23:10):
together, um, you're not off thehook for going on dates and, uh
, I, I am a fan of a schedule ofyou know, one date night a week
, one night away from home amonth and one vacation a year at
a minimum.
If, uh, if you can't afford it,I get it, but try to figure out
(23:31):
ways to to afford it.
You know, go on, go onPriceline, get a, get a cheap
hotel room, even just the nexttown over, and try to try to get
away once a month from, youknow, the, the housework and the
kids that spend some time awayand it feels, it feels more,
more, more romantic when you're,when you're getting away from
uh, from home.
Oh absolutely yeah.
Charles (23:51):
The excitement of seeing new things definitely
triggers different hormonalreleases in our brain.
I think so Dopamine, I'm sureit's released as well, and and
some sort of adrenaline, and youknow that that level of
excitement, you know, raises our, our energy levels, in our
state, and and that definitelyum can be a foundation of of a
(24:20):
romantic connection at thatpoint too.
Dan (24:20):
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, okay, he does.
Uh, the Gottmans have a bookcalled uh 10 dates conversations
that lead to a lifetime of love, which was written by the same
four people that wrote the Man'sGuide to Women.
So if you'd like to we're notgoing to be discussing that book
next but if you'd like to keepyour Gottman education going,
that might be a good way to dothat I may go ahead and get it
(24:40):
from.
I was telling you the other dayI've got just a crap ton of
audible credits that I've notgone through, so that might be a
good one to add to my own queueas well.
Charles (24:50):
Yeah, I didn't realize that if you've got a Spotify
premium membership, it includesa lot of Audible books or audio
books.
I shouldn't say Audible books,but audio books.
Okay, I don't know if any ofthe Gottman stuff is on there,
but just wanted to mention thatin case anybody's listening and
didn't realize stuff is on there.
But just wanted to mention thatin case anybody's listening
then didn't realize, cause Ionly listened to Spotify for the
music and somebody was like ohyou know, you can get it for you
know this book for free, youknow on versus paying for an
(25:12):
audible subscription.
Dan (25:13):
So yeah, I wish, I wish YouTube music had, uh, had
something like that, Cause I'vebeen paying for YouTube premium
for years and, uh, you know, sofar what I get is no commercials
on my YouTube videos and a lotof mockery from people younger
than me that I have YouTubemusic instead of Spotify.
But that's OK, I don't mind.
(25:35):
I don't mind mockery when, whenI'm getting what I need and I
watch so many YouTube videosthat if I, if I, had to sit
through commercials, I wouldkill myself.
It's the worst.
Yeah, ok.
So the next, next point get toknow her um and uh, he reminds
(25:56):
us.
You know how, when we got intoour relationship, we would
always have, uh, you know, theselong conversations with our
partner and how much we probablyenjoyed those long
conversations.
And you know, in anyrelationship when, when you get
used to someone and you get usedto your situation, it can be
easy to just go on cruisecontrol and and stop, because,
(26:16):
look when, when those hormoneswear off, it's very easy to not
do the same things you did backwhen you were high on high on
drugs and when there, you know,was when the novelty was high
and everything felt new, it waseasy to do things that may not
feel as new and exciting whenyou're six months or six years
(26:37):
or six decades into arelationship.
So he recommends doing thingslike asking open-ended questions
.
Um, there are plenty of reallycool couples games, either
available on your phone oravailable as card games, where
you can sort of get into it withyour partner of hey, let's ask
some thought-provoking questionsof each other to get to know
each other even better than wealready do, and I certainly
(26:59):
recommend doing that.
Having those interestingconversations about what
people's values and hopes anddreams are will definitely help
you feel closer.
Feel closer to somebody.
Um, appreciate her, complimenther, thank her, admire her, use
your words and your actions toshow her how much you know, you
love and value her.
That's a certainly great adviceand uh, we'll, we'll help build
(27:23):
that uh bank of positivefeelings so that when, when
trouble comes, you know, knowyou're not just wanting to cut
and run.
Neither of you are wanting tocut and run because, oh, life's
hard now and I didn't sign upfor that.
Uh, honor her dreams, you know.
Figure out what she's into,what she sees as being a good
future and a good life together.
(27:44):
Uh, is there, you know?
Is it?
Marriage, family, kids is it acareer?
Is it traveling to a place?
I mean, just find out like, hey, if, if time, money and effort
were infinite, how would you bespending your days?
And then you know, try torecreate some of that in her
life, and hopefully she'slooking to recreate that in
(28:05):
yours as well.
Charles (28:06):
Yeah, that's great.
Dan (28:09):
Another reminder that the two complaints that most women
have about men are he's neverthere for me and there isn't
enough intimacy and connection.
And on the other side, thecomplaints that men had about
relationships and about theirpartners was we don't have sex
(28:30):
enough and we fight too much.
And so just be aware that tokeep those from getting out of
control, you got to put work in,and you know we we talk about
that on this show all the timethat you know it's not
complicated to be in good shapeor rich or have a good
relationship with your partner.
It's fairly simple, but thatdoesn't make it easy, and so you
(28:52):
know you can.
You can either rely on yourday-to-day motivation for
getting those things done or youcan try to put in systems where
it happens almost automatically, because you're just used to
living your life that way and Iwould say yeah, yeah, when it
comes to your relationship.
Take some of these things likeum, appreciating her, dating her
(29:15):
, giving her that six secondkiss when you say hello or
goodbye, and figure out a way tosystematize it so that it it's
easy and it happensautomatically because, again, if
you, if you only do the rightthing when you feel like doing
the right thing.
You're going to have a wholelife of not doing the right
thing.
Charles (29:31):
Yeah, um, the the way to systematize it is to just
keep practicing it.
That's it, just doing it, andeventually it just gets easier
and easier and easier andbecomes part of who you are, and
then that's just how youinteract and how you maintain
yourself when you are in arelationship.
Same way, you have a certainway of doing things and thinking
and working in a job.
(29:53):
Right, it's just because you'vedone the same thing typically
for over and over and over again.
And so be aware of the actionsthat you're going to take and
the interactions you're going tohave and how you're going to
handle a romantic relationship.
You're showing up the way youwant to show up and practice
those things.
And, yeah, sometimes coming upwith questions, open-ended
(30:18):
questions, might not besomething you normally do and it
sounds like, oh my God, it's apain.
Where am I going to get thisinformation?
I'm going to schedule time todo this.
I don't have any time.
When are we going to do this?
Doesn't sound like that muchfun, but you got to push past
that a little bit.
Do it a few times and you'llsurprise yourself and look for
going in, go into it, lookingfor ways to enjoy it, and then
(30:40):
the next time you do it it'sgoing to be a little bit easier
because you've already done itand you you know that you're
going to enjoy it in certainways and obviously keep an eye
and make sure that your partnerenjoys it too.
But the more you do it, theeasier it's going to be and the
more enjoyment you'll get out ofit.
Dan (30:58):
And less work is great, and it can be something as easy as
hey.
Before we start the next episodeof this TV show we're watching,
let me pull up this app on myphone.
That's gonna, you know, ask usboth a question that we can
answer for each other.
And you know, yeah, if you wantto, uh, I agree with you that
you know the way you get betterat stuff like this is by
(31:20):
practicing it and doing it allthe time, and fortunately, there
are things available like appsthat can help remind you to do
stuff like this, and there'salso books like Tiny Habits and
Atomic Habits, where it's likeokay, here's how I can tie this
thing that I want to start doingwith this other thing that I
(31:41):
already do.
Just make it easy on yourself,because, yeah, no, very few
people, you know, start wake uptomorrow and say I want to be a
marathon runner, so I'm going togo out and put in my 26 miles,
starting tomorrow, and it justchange doesn't happen that way.
(32:02):
It happens with, you know,doing what's what's something I
could start doing tomorrow thatI didn't do today.
That is going to both bemanageable and make me feel like
I'm moving in the rightdirection, and so go back to our
series on tiny habits, andwe'll share all those with you.
Charles (32:20):
Yeah, string along those little green checkboxes
and those wins so that you feelgood about doing it.
Feel good about doing it andmake it so easy that you need to
struggle to do them, but justkeep them consistently, keep
racking them up, because that'sgoing to build up your those
good feelings and it's going tomotivate you to do more.
So don't and again, you know,this time of year everybody's
kind of quitting their newyear's resolutions, I feel at
(32:42):
this point.
So a lot of people I'm seeingare going so hard right out of
the gate because they ate or oryou know, we're negligent for
like the last month of of 2024,and they feel guilty and they
feel like, oh, my God, I got it,I need to make up for lost time
.
And they just go too hard witheverything, whatever.
That is too extreme and that'snot sustainable.
(33:02):
And then you're going to feelbad about yourself when you fail
, but you're setting yourself upfor failure because you're
going from negative five to ahundred instead of negative five
to two or three.
So, just kind of, and it's hardbecause, listen, I'm guilty of
that too, absolutely, with somany things and there's so many
times where I'm I'm never going.
Oh, I need to make this harder,right, I'm always like.
(33:25):
I'm always like.
You know.
I when, when I'm I'm doingsomething, it's like a lot of
times like you know what.
I really should be making thiseasier so I get this done and I
can continue to do this in aconsistent way, but my brain
immediately goes to it's notenough.
Dan (33:40):
Yeah, and it's interesting, one of our favorite fitness
guys that we listen to onYouTube is Mike Isretel.
That Dr Mike Isretel and, uh,he did Dr Mike Isretel, please
Sorry, dr Mike is.
Yeah, he didn't spend all thattime in medical school for
people to just call him Mike, Isuppose.
Um, he did bring up in one ofhis videos the challenge of
(34:01):
trying to go too slowly, which Iwas like this is interesting, I
can't hold anybody.
I can't believe anybody doesthat.
Where he was like yeah, if you,if you're trying to lose weight
and you decide I'm going to tryto lose five pounds a week,
yeah, you're going to crash andburn because you can't do that
sustainably.
Um, you know, unless you're,unless you have a ton to lose,
but eventually you're going toget to the point where I can't
lose five pounds a week anymoreand and I would say only that's
(34:31):
only a healthy thing if you arelike three or more times the
weight you should be is, islosing five pounds a week a good
idea.
But he also said if you go downto I'm gonna try to lose a
quarter pound a week, that's notgoing to be sustainable either,
because after a few weeks of aquarter pound.
You're going to look at thescale and the calendar and feel
like I'm not doing anything,this isn't working, and but it
was just so.
It was so novel to me becauseit's like I would never do that.
(34:54):
That would never be my problem.
I would never.
Charles (34:55):
I would never come up with a plan to go too slowly,
yeah, and I don't think manypeople would, though I'll be
honest with you.
Dan (34:59):
I think you know everybody wants yesterday, right, but I
could see if you've tried andfailed too many times that go
big or go home, you might swingto that other extreme.
Yeah, okay, and then, and thenjust figure out a new way to
lose it.
Charles (35:13):
You're at meeting your goals.
Yeah, I can't say I've everdone that, or well, maybe I have
and I just it was so shortlythat I forgot about it.
But I think, yeah, it'sdemotivating because you're not
seeing any progress.
And so you define that healthybalance of where you feel like
you're making progress andthat's where you kind of need to
(35:34):
look at, even if it's lessweight than you want a week.
But you have to look at hey,I'm consistent.
You need to also get some sortof motivation and gratification
out of the hey, I've beenconsistent, I've been doing this
program and been and been ableto check off the these wins for
(35:54):
six weeks now.
Right, and I've did it.
I've done it every week for sixweeks and that's right.
I feel good about that.
And for me, that was actuallypart of like that 75 heart piece
of that was just the length oftime.
I had never stuck to oneprogram or doing one.
I mean, I dabble in all thesedifferent little productivity
tools and morning routines andhabits and stuff like that, but
(36:14):
they've always changed afterlike two or three weeks.
Dan (36:17):
I've never focused on needing to do it for such a long
time and saying, okay, that'spart of my win is being able to
do that for every single day for75 days yeah, it's funny we we
had that conversation before youstarted, where I I remember
telling you, like dan, I thinkthe hardest part for you is
(36:39):
going to be picking a diet forthe next 75 days and not finding
a better diet three weeks inthat you like better.
Charles (36:48):
And part of it, but it wasn't even just that, but also
reading 10 pages.
I mean, I enjoy that whenever,but again I would let it go.
I'd be like, oh, I you know,I'm busy today, or I missed my
window in the morning when Inormally do it, so it was just
easy to just go.
Nah, I'll just do tomorrow, butthere's something to be said
for that.
But you're forcing yourself todo that.
Dan (37:10):
I forget.
And so, taking this back toyour relationship, it's like,
yeah, don't try to do all thesethings at once.
Where you're like I'm going tofix every single one of these
issues, I'm going to start thesix second kiss.
I'm going to start the weeklydate night, I'm going to start
the you know, let's have theseopen-ended question
conversations.
I mean, yeah, some of these arenot that big, so it's, it's not
(37:33):
going to be hard to do two ofthem maybe.
But yeah, if you, if you try to,if you hit the realization of,
okay, my relationship has a lotof problems, so, starting
tomorrow, I'm going to fix allthose problems, that's, that's
not going to be sustainable.
And your partner you'reprobably in a different place
(37:56):
with trying to open up the hoodand fix some of these things
than your partner is and youkind of need some level of
buy-in from your partner on thisstuff too, where you can't just
decide, hey, I'm going to fixour troubled relationship
tomorrow and she better be onboard, or else, well, that's,
that's just another trouble thatyou're introducing into the
relationship in this case, whatyou're talking about is
absolutely true.
Charles (38:14):
You have a much bigger role in terms of the other
person.
Have is a much bigger role interms of any of the, these new
routines, these new things thatyou're trying to do, whereas the
stuff that we're talking about,you know, diet, diet or reading
or whatever that's that'smostly on you, and I mean so, I
think, also communicating whatyou're trying to do, because you
(38:35):
know, if you're not used togiving a six second kiss, you
might need to communicate thatit might come across a little
bit weird to the, to yourpartner, or you know some of the
, some of these other thingsthat you're doing or kind of
bringing up, especially ifyou're kind of ingrained in
routines for many years andcertain you know, certain things
are just that's just notsomething that you do.
(38:56):
It could raise some sort ofsuspicion or whatever.
So don't be afraid tocommunicate what you're trying
to do here.
Dan (39:02):
You know, no, I think you definitely should have that
communication and say, hey, Iread this book.
It's got some recommendationsand we can all start the six
second kiss tomorrow or today.
And uh, yeah, just give yourpartner a heads up Like, hey,
this really smart guy who has apodcast, no, this really smart
guy who wrote a book says thatyou know the.
(39:24):
The evidence is there that thisis a good thing that we should
do, and I'd like to start doingit right now.
So go ahead and do that then,yeah, and uh, yeah, I'm going to
.
I'm going to tell my girlfriend, um, next time I see her that
we're we're going to kiss forsix seconds at hello and goodbye
and we'll uh, we'll try toremember to do that.
Charles (39:51):
Do you ever forget?
Oh, sure, all the time, okay, ohyeah, I mean, I'm not, I'm, I'm
definitely not doing, you know,but when I remember, I, you
know, I, I try, and there's, youknow, like I said, there's
other times where, like in themorning, you know, when we're
both of us even like have abrush or teeth or whatever it's,
it's a different kind of kiss,right, it's like.
And then, uh, yeah, so the otherthing to kind of keep in mind
here is, if you were to bringthis up to your partner, I could
(40:13):
see certain situations wherethey think everything is good
and they're happy and like, well, why are you reading this book?
Like, is there something wrong,you know, with our relationship
?
And that could be a little bitof an, you know, an awkward
conversation, and if I was inthat position, I would say
something like, uh, no, thingsare good, but they could always
be better, and I don't want tous to lose the fire that we have
(40:35):
between us.
And and, uh, you know, I wantto, I want to do as much as I
can to support us and therelationship.
And and so, you know this, thisbook really had some really
cool ideas and you know, know I.
Dan (40:48):
I want to try some of them and invite her to read it too
yeah, I think that, uh, mostwomen are open, more open to the
idea of.
You know, hey, I I read thisbook by this smart guy and I
just I'm just down to makethings even better than they are
.
Oh, that's a win right there.
I think guys may feel a littlebit more challenged and a little
(41:09):
bit more defensive in the faceof that conversation than most
women in my experience.
I agree, yep, but yeah, I thinkyou know the because you know,
men don't seem to be veryincentivized to think about or
talk about relationships as muchas women are.
In our culture, which that's aninteresting point that Robert
Glover brings up, you know wehave this sort of expectation
(41:33):
that women are better atrelationships than men.
But what it really is is womenare just more encouraged to
think about and talk aboutrelationships than men, and so
it seems like, because theythink about it and talk about it
more, they may or may not bebetter at it.
Because they think about it andtalk about it more, they may or
may not be better at it, butgenerally speaking, when you
find yourself in a relationshipwith someone, they're going to
(41:55):
have usually a similar level ofrelationship skill and
competence that you do.
They're not going to be waybetter or way worse at
relationships, because if theywere, they wouldn't be in a
relationship with you, I think.
People on the same level ofrelationship skills and mental
health or mental illness, theyseem to find each other.
And so, um, yeah, your, yourpartner, may talk about
(42:21):
relationships more.
She may read aboutrelationships more.
She may, you know, have havemore experience with
relationship terminology.
But the actual skills of beinggood at a relationship, they may
or may not be there and theymay or may not be higher or
lower than yours.
So, um, but the good news is,as men going to women to say,
hey, I want to, I want to makethings even better, it's a
(42:43):
little easier for us to bring upthat conversation than it
usually is for women to bring upthat conversation.
Charles (42:48):
Yeah, that's a good point.
Dan (42:49):
That's a good point.
If my partner brought up youknow, hey, I read this book
about relationships and I thinkwe should change some things I
would definitely have adefensive Whoa, wait a second,
what are you?
What are you trying to tell mehere?
Yeah, there, I think.
I think women are less likelyto have that reaction.
Charles (43:05):
That's a fair point.
Dan (43:08):
So, all right, that is going to be the end of our time
on the Man's Guide to Women bythe Gottmans.
For our next trick, we are goingto visit another one of the
books that I put on my MountRushmore of relationship books
for men, which is DatingEssentials for men by Robert
(43:30):
Glover, and, uh, we are onlygoing to do part one of that
book, where part one reallyfocuses more on a man's
relationship to himself and theideas that he has about himself,
about the world, about women,about dating, and we're going to
do the first half.
(43:51):
Then we're going to take a breakand do another book and then,
at some point in the future,we're going to come back and
talk about the second half ofthat book and get into a little
bit more of the sort of theaction steps, the tactics of
being a good dater, the tacticsof, uh, being a good dater, and
(44:12):
so hopefully, uh, our audiencewill find value in that, because
we, we enjoy, we enjoy DrGlover's work and, uh, again,
it's, it's not perfect, it's notwise no one, why has nobody
told me this before by Dr Julie,but it's good, and so we'll, uh
, we'll mention the points wherewe diverge with Dr Glover.
But there's not many of them indating essentials for men,
particularly not in the firsthalf yo, I'm excited for it.
(44:35):
He's got a lot of good insightyou got any final thoughts on,
uh, the man's guide to women?
I, I can't.
I can't think of a man I knowthat wouldn't benefit from
reading this book um, no, I mean, yes, I do.
Charles (44:49):
I guess, uh, I was really impressed with the, the
level of details most of thetime that they went into with
with most of the chapters.
I know there's a couple where wewere like, yeah, you're kind of
getting lazy here, but uh, the,you know, it's definitely made
me interested to read more ofsome of the gotman's work and
(45:11):
just knowing that they spent somuch time and energy and
research in terms ofrelationships where they were
able to observe so many couples,like thousands and thousands of
couples, in their, in theirlove lab right where they
basically monitored them, youknow, right, and you know, in
enclosed in, you know, in their,in their, uh, in their captive
(45:35):
environment or in their, intheir houses or their apartments
and we're able to see theirbody interactions and their
conversations and just havingthat amount of insight to what
everybody and so many people andhow they behave and react.
I think a lot of great insightscome out of that, and so I'm
(45:55):
excited to read more of whatthey've written based on that
research, what they've pulledout of that, just to better
understand people myself, othersand the relationships, and
every time I've done that andI've gleaned something that has
made my life easier or happier.
So, yeah, I really I like theirstuff.
Dan (46:16):
Yeah, their, their evidence-based approach really
does appeal to me, where they,you know, they analyze people,
they talk to people, they dosurveys, they, they collect data
and then they report on it,which, you know, feels a lot
better than just hey.
You know, during my career as acounselor, I sat in the office
and I kind of noticed blah, blah, blah.
It's like no, it's more like wecan predict with a 96% level of
(46:41):
certainty which couples aregoing to last and which ones
aren't.
That's the kind of stuff thatreally appeals to me.
So I'm definitely open to doinganother one of their books in
the future, for sure, cool, allright, thanks, dan.
We will stop there for today,and next time we'll be back with
dating essentials for men by drrobert glover.
Sounds good, sir.
All right, take care bye-bye.
(47:02):
Thank you so much for choosingto listen to our entire episode
from start to finish, dan, and Icertainly it.
You can check us out onmindfullymasculinecom, our
website, where you'll find fullvideo episodes, audio episodes
and any other information orresources we decide are worth
sharing.
Thanks.
If you're not communicating what your needs
are, you have no right to be madat anybody else.
I mean, yes, you've been withthis person perhaps for years
and years and years, and youfeel like maybe they should know
you and they should justunderstand what your needs are.
But that's still a tall order.
Even after many years, we can'tread minds.
Just yet, that feature in AIhasn't come out yet.
Dan (00:22):
Welcome back to the Mindfully Masculine Podcast.
This is Charles.
Okay, this is our last episodediscussing the man's guide to
women, and in this final episode, we will discuss trust and
communication in relationships,managing emotional expression,
expectations versus reality inrelationships, maintaining
connection in long-termrelationships and understanding
(00:45):
and supporting your partner, aswell as some other topics.
Please check out our website,mindfullymasculinecom, where you
can find our full audioepisodes, video episodes and any
other news or info that we wantto share.
Thanks and enjoy.
Good morning, charles.
How are you?
Hey, dan, I'm good.
Thanks, how are you.
I am doing.
Well, this is our second take oftrying to get this episode
(01:10):
recorded.
Today.
We had a little bit oftechnical challenges and then my
internet died, and now all ofthat really interesting weather
talk that we started out with islost forever.
I don't think we should eventry to reproduce that it's.
It would be.
That would be folly.
Um, okay, so let's dive intothe final chapter of our book,
(01:33):
the man's guide to women.
Um, this is chapter 15, Ibelieve it's called.
Uh, loving a woman for alifetime.
Uh, let's see yep stayingtogether loving a woman for a
lifetime.
Let's see Yep Staying together,loving a woman for a lifetime.
So we start out this chapterwith a really cool story about
Albert Einstein, who was up tosome pretty interesting things
(01:54):
outside of the nuclear weaponsdevelopment.
Charles (02:00):
Yeah Well, sounds like he liked setting off bombs in
his own life.
He really does.
Dan (02:04):
Yeah well, sounds like he liked setting off bombs in his
own life Based on.
He really does.
So the chat starts with thiscute little quote from him when
you trip over love, it is easyto get up, but when you fall in
love it is impossible to standagain.
Oh, he must have been a reallyromantic guy, huh, mm guy, huh.
(02:31):
Then it comes out that, uh,toward the end of his marriage.
Uh, his wife's name was maleva,m-i-l-e-v-a.
Maleva, I'm not sure how youpronounce that, I've not heard
it before.
Um, he, uh, toward the end ofthe marriage.
As things, I guess, werealready falling apart, he gave
her a list that she needed tofollow if she wanted to stick
with him oh wait, was this acrossroads?
Charles (02:46):
what was it?
What was made nicely?
Dan (02:48):
yeah, uh.
You'll make sure that myclothes and laundry are kept in
good order, that I received mythree meals a day regularly in
my room, that the bedroom andstudy are kept neat and that my
desk is left for my use only.
You will renounce all personalrelations with me insofar as
they are not completelynecessary for social reasons.
(03:09):
You will forgo me sitting athome with you or going out and
traveling with you.
So I'm not going to stick athome with you and I'm not going
to go out with you.
You'll not expect any intimacyfrom me, nor will you reproach
me in any way.
You'll stop talking to me if Irequest it and you'll leave my
bedroom or study immediatelywithout protest if I request it.
(03:33):
You will undertake not tobelittle me in front of our
children through words orbehavior.
That's the same list I give myhousekeeper.
I don't see the problem here.
You tell your housekeeper thatshe shouldn't expect any
intimacy with you.
Charles (03:46):
Exactly, I try, you know.
I said I make sure everybody'son the same page, you know, make
sure everything's crystal clear.
Dan (03:53):
Yeah, so she obviously leaves him in a matter of months
after he gives her that list.
And you know, I'm just I'mtired of of deifying these
intellectuals and you know,because he has a lot of cool
little quotes about love andrelationships and the nature of
genius and all this stuff andit's like, okay, yeah, but
(04:13):
you're also a crazy person whohas no idea what it takes to
salvage or maintain arelationship, and we should not
forget that there's a differencebetween living in reality and
you know this is basicallypoetry or prose that's never
been actually executed by himand in the real world.
Charles (04:32):
clearly, mains.
Dan (04:46):
And and then, you know, try to try to watch elon musk dance
or neil degrasse tyson tell ajoke, and it's like, oh, that's
right, you can just be reallygood at one thing and not at
other things.
Yeah, so so he, uh the gotmans,used that story to bring us into
the?
Uh, the idea of what it takesto make a relationship last a
(05:08):
lifetime, and what you have todo and what you should avoid
doing if, uh, if, you wantthings to be successful and not
just fall apart.
And the first thing that, uh,they remind us of in this
chapter is something that goesall the way back to the
beginning of the book, which ishow necessary it is for people
(05:29):
to trust each other if they'regoing to be in a relationship
together.
When you talk to unhappycouples, what is it that they
usually say is the problem withthe relationship?
(05:50):
Well, it's one or both of themthat say you know, I just don't,
I just can't count on the otherperson to be there for me when
I'm going to need them the most.
I don't know that they're goingto show up the way that I need
them to when the poop hits thefan.
Charles (06:04):
You can't have any kind of relationship in that
situation.
You can't have an employee bossrelationship, you can't have a
friendship relationship,nevermind a romantic
relationship, I think.
Dan (06:15):
Yeah, no, absolutely yeah, we've.
I mean, we've been doing thepodcast for three years now and
you know, if either of us werelike, well, it's Wednesday
morning, I wonder if Charles isgoing to jump on or if he's just
going to blow it off.
And I mean, and you've, you'vebeen, you've been in a business
partnership since what?
2005 or so, with, uh, with ourfriend Dick, and yeah, if, if
(06:37):
you couldn't just count on himto do the stuff he says he's
going to do when he's going todo it, then you know how can you
entrust your, your present andyour future to somebody you
can't right right, and then Imean that's the thing is.
Charles (06:48):
Then you can't focus on things you need to focus on.
If you're worried about, youknow, managing and doing the
basics for somebody else, yeah,and so how, how can you, uh, or
how does that trust break down?
Dan (07:05):
Um, but one of the ways, one of the biggest ways that it
breaks down is when one or bothpeople basically adopt conflict
avoidance as their primarystrategy in the relationship.
Meaning, I'm going to, you know, avoid rocking the boat at all
costs and try to live my life insuch a way that we never fight
(07:26):
or never have disagreements.
And, yeah, if you, if you adoptthat as your, as your
relationship strategy, thenyou're going to turn into an
untrustworthy person.
Charles (07:40):
Yeah, yeah, and I think that what that really kind of
thing?
I think that stems from peopletrying to avoid other people's
emotions, and I mean, a lot ofus have not, most of us have not
been taught how to manage ourown emotions, nevermind our own,
plus somebody else's who aren'texactly happy emotions.
(08:03):
So a lot of times it's, it'smuch easier to just not, you
know, to avoid the conflict and,you know, create your teeth and
hope for the best, and I thinka lot of us operate that way,
unfortunately.
Dan (08:18):
And yeah, and especially, I mean I, I see this in myself,
or at least I see this, thisimpulse in myself, and I think I
see this in myself, or at leastI see this impulse in myself
and I think other men canprobably relate to this as well
where, if you adopt this mindsetor this goal for yourself of I
am completely emotion-free, I amjust, I'm rational, I'm driven
(08:38):
by logic, and you try to treatyourself that way and you try to
show up in your relationshipsthat way, then all these
emotions that you're not lettingout, they're going to boil over
at some point.
And then you know it's reallyhard to argue that you're
completely logic andrationality-based when you're
(09:01):
punching holes in drywallbecause you're so frustrated
with your life and all thethings that you're refusing to
acknowledge.
Yep, so sure.
Um, yeah, that is.
That is definitely something toavoid, and so, as a result, you
have to be honest and bewilling to be honest with the
people in your life to say, hey,this, uh, what fill in the
(09:23):
blank, whatever it is, is aproblem for me.
I'm not feeling good about it,and I think we need to talk
about it and then give peoplethe chance and the opportunity
to meet your needs or to tellyou they're not going to meet
your needs, and either of thoseis an improvement over you just
keeping your needs to yourselfand building up resentment and
(09:46):
anger and jealousy and fill inthe blank over over time that we
all know is eventually going toboil over either either you
having some sort of an emotionaloutburst or you looking outside
of the relationship to haveyour needs met.
Charles (10:00):
Yeah, yeah.
And if you want to throw somelogic in here, then you really
should only be mad at yourself,because if you're not
communicating what your needsare, you have no right to be mad
at anybody else.
I mean, yes, you've been withthis person perhaps for years
and years and years, and youfeel like maybe they should know
you and they should justunderstand what your needs are.
But that's still a tall order,even after many years.
(10:21):
You know we can't read mindsjust yet, that you know that
feature in ai hasn't come outyet.
So, um, yeah, I think you know.
I think, really, if we're goingto put some, like I said, some
logic on this, you really needto turn, you know, the the
finger at yourself and say, hey,you know you're the one to
blame here.
You have no one to be mad atother than be frustrated with
(10:42):
yourself that you didn'tcommunicate when you should have
communicated.
Dan (10:47):
Yeah.
And the thing is, if you arespending your time, I mean, you
lose on it in two ways.
Number one, by not being honestabout what you need, you're not
giving your partner theopportunity to meet those needs.
And number two, you're also notrevealing who you really are to
(11:07):
your partner, so they're notgoing to feel as connected to
you.
And you know we all have thatneed, those needs for connection
, whether it's physicalconnection, being being in
proximity to other people, oremotional connection, sexual
connection.
We, we all want to feel thosethings in our relationships.
And if, if we don't get themafter long enough periods of
(11:30):
time, then we find a way to getthose needs met, whether that is
with emotional or or physicalaffairs with other people.
And so you know, I think, Ithink part of the trap we can
fall into is this idea, thissort of narrative that we've
been sold by.
You know, whether it's Disney,fairy tales or romantic comedies
(11:52):
, that you know, when you findthe right person, you're not
going to have to tell them whatyou need, what you need, they'll
just know.
And that is certainly not trueand it doesn't work that way.
It doesn't work that way, andthat feeling of well, if I have
to tell you what I need and youdo it, then you're only meeting
my needs because I told you.
(12:13):
It's like, yeah, exactly, andthat's okay, I'm still.
You know, if you have a partnerthat's willing to meet your
needs because you told them whatyour needs are, that's still
loving you and that's stillsomething that you should feel
good about.
But you know, if you've gotproblems in your own issues from
history of other relationshipsor because of what you think
(12:35):
love and romance is supposed tolook like, based on culture,
then yeah, you're gonna feellike, oh, but that's not enough.
It's not enough for me to tellmy partner what I need and then
they meet the need, but but yeah, that's how slowly the work.
Charles (12:47):
I got a question for you.
I'd love to hear your feedbackon this.
One time a friend of a girlthat I was dating at the time it
was one of her close friends Ihad basically put special
anniversaries and dates andthings that related to our
relationship on my calendar andI'd get a reminder.
When she told her friend aboutit, she thought that was
(13:10):
horrible, it was not romanticthat.
You know, I have thesereminders and I should just, I
guess, just memorize all thedates of all the different
things and and because I hadthese calendar reminders, and
(13:31):
because I had these calendarreminders, basically it took
away from I guess how specialanything was when we would
celebrate them.
Dan (13:34):
Curious to hear what you have to say about that.
I think you know what I have tosay about that.
That's ridiculous.
Charles (13:38):
I mean, that's a very childlike view of the world and
of relationships, and I meanreally's it's silly, but, but I
think it plays into that wholeromanticized fantasy land that
we are inundated with with, youknow, romantic comedies and, and
you know, disney, princessesand this, this magical,
(14:00):
unbelievable standard for, forthis pretty charming I guess, I
don't know.
I would love to hear somefeedback from some ladies to
hear hey, it's, you know, isthis, is this a common point of
view or was this a one-off?
Dan (14:15):
yeah, well, ask your girlfriend, I'll ask mine and
we'll see what they say.
Yeah, uh, yeah, it is.
It is quite ridiculous to Imean, listen, I, I wouldn't even
know what the date was oftoday's.
I wouldn't know today's date ifI didn't look on a calendar, so
much less know that today isalso, you know, the anniversary
(14:35):
of our first date.
Like, yeah, if it's not for forthe calendar telling me that
today is wednesday, january 22nd, I would have no idea it is.
And then to go a second stepand know, oh, not only is it the
22nd, but it's the fourth monthanniversary of our first date.
That's, that's ridiculous.
Charles (14:53):
Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure if it was supposed to be
that granular, so to to nottotally blow this person out of
the water Not to straw, man them.
Yeah, I would say there wasprobably like more significant
dates, like a year anniversary,what that day was, because we do
remember like importantpeople's birthdays in our lives
usually.
So you know, that being said, Ithink it was more, not a, you
(15:18):
know, three and a half weekanniversary, that it was a
little bit more significantdates, I mean, and I had like,
above and beyond there, you know, some more granular dates, but
everything was on the calendar.
Dan (15:33):
Okay, so I'm going to let me let me jump on the other side
of the argument for a second.
And yeah, there's, there's abit that Jimmy Kimmel does on
his show where he'll go out onthe street and meet, like a
tourist who's visiting Hollywood, who's there with their son or
their daughter, and then they'llask the dad questions that I
believe they should definitelyknow the answer to and they
(15:54):
don't.
So it's like, yeah, if if youneed a Google reminder on your
calendar to tell you that it'syour son or daughter's birthday,
then yeah, or even yourpartner's birthday, then okay.
Yes, I would say to your pointthere there's a line between
what you should know and whatyou should not know.
And you know, I would say, yourpartner's birthday, and you
(16:17):
know.
However, obviously, if it's yourwedding anniversary, you should
know that.
If it's still the anniversary,if you're not married, and it's
the anniversary of your firstdate, then yeah, I'd say you
probably should know that too,and your kids' birthdays.
But beyond that, I think it isa little ridiculous.
I think you should know.
(16:38):
I agree with that.
Define the big ones, I guess,is what's up for debate, and I
would limit it to weddinganniversary, anniversary of
either your first date or thefirst time you define yourselves
as a couple, and then kids'birthdays and that's pretty much
it.
Charles (16:56):
So here's a question I'm going to throw it out here.
Do you know your girlfriend'sphone number?
Dan (17:04):
Have you memorized?
Charles (17:06):
No, certainly not, friend's phone number have you
memorized?
Uh, no, sir, I have not, I'mgonna.
I'm gonna say I and I have notfor mine so I barely I don't
know.
Dan (17:12):
I mean, yeah, your phone number, rob's phone number,
renata's phone number?
I don't know any of them offthe top.
I don't know.
Yeah, no, I have to look themup in my phone.
Yeah, that's, that's a littlecrazy these days.
Whose numbers do you know?
Charles (17:25):
So the ones where they've been around for so many
years.
It was before we wereconstantly had the matter of
fingertips.
So, like I know, I stillremember my phone numbers as a
kid.
For the house line, yeah, I doneed a sister's cell phone
number, but, you know, I know mydad's home number, but I don't
(17:46):
know his cell phone number.
So, yeah, yeah, I thinkhonestly, and I know my number.
Dan (17:57):
Yeah, I know my own numbers too, but that's pretty much.
That's pretty much it as far asphone numbers go, I you know
it's not like it was beforewhere, even if you just had a
number stored in your cell phone, well, if that phone didn't
boot up one day and it turnedinto a paperweight, then all
your numbers were just gone.
So for that reason it madesense to keep an address book as
(18:19):
well.
But we're moving past thosedays.
If one cell phone dies, thenit's all you know in iCloud, so
it doesn't much matter.
But, right, yeah, I, and Ireally think you know again,
except for those reallyimportant dates, the more stuff
that you can outsource from yourbrain onto other places to keep
(18:43):
track of data, the more, themore memory you got in your
brain for other stuff.
So, um, I'm in favor of that,but yeah, I guess, I guess it
really comes down to each coupledeciding okay, here are the
things that are important andhere are the things that you
know it's okay to not havememorized.
But yeah, when I, when I hearstories of dads who don't know
(19:05):
their kids' birthdays, who don'tknow what grade their kids are
in, um, stuff like that, I Ithink that's a little ridiculous
, like if you're outsourcingthat much to, oh, my wife will
just keep it in her brain, so Idon't need to.
Yeah, I could see that as beinga source of, uh, resentment and
I would probably feel the sameway.
All right, so we get a nicelittle list of how to affair
(19:29):
proof your relationship and somethings that you can integrate
into your schedule and as wellas your relationship practice
that will make it a little lesslikely that your partner's needs
are going unmet for so longthat they start looking to other
sources.
The first one is the six secondkiss.
(19:51):
Is that something that you'recurrently practicing?
It is.
Is it really?
Is it the Gottman's, or becausethat's just what you do?
No, because of this book,because of his book.
Charles (19:59):
It's not like, yeah, I didn't write this book.
I did clothes on my own.
Yeah, I steal stuff.
No, yeah, absolutely, and itworks, and I feel I'll be more
connected when I do it.
Okay, how long have you beendoing it?
Probably since the first time Iheard that that was actually.
You recommended this book to mea while ago.
(20:20):
I remember I went through it.
Yeah, probably almost a yearago.
Dan (20:28):
So, um, as soon as I heard that I, I was like that's a
great idea and yeah, so I meanthey, they say it works as long
as it's you're already, as longas I don't have to yeah yeah.
Charles (20:40):
Yeah, it works as long as I'm not a bad breath, or.
What's interesting is, guys,here's something to think about.
I'm just bringing this upbecause I was feeling a little
insecure about it, because I waslike she doesn't want to kiss
me and I'm like I just put amint in my mouth.
I know I've got good breath.
I'm like now my brain isspinning and thinking, oh, maybe
there's something wrong.
No, no, no, no.
(21:01):
She thought she had bad breath.
She did.
Oh good, she thought she did.
So it was less than the sixseconds that I was going for.
So just keep in mind, it's notall about you.
There could be other thingsgoing on, right?
Dan (21:16):
Yeah, and another thing that I think might be a good
idea is, if you're not all thatphysically affectionate outside
of the bedroom, you need to makeit clear that, uh, you're not
trying to initiate sex justbecause you're giving the six
(21:36):
second kiss, hello or goodbye.
Charles (21:38):
well, that's a good point uh, because absolutely
yeah, if that's not part of yourstandard routine.
Dan (21:46):
Right, Sure Now.
Do you generally do open mouthor closed mouth?
Charles (21:54):
Oh, I do it all, baby.
Dan (21:57):
Because I'm just thinking, you know if you're saying good,
you know if you guys have met upat a restaurant after work
where you've met in the parkinglot, you know, maybe an open
mouth kiss in the parking lot isnot the way to go.
Charles (22:06):
Well, the thing is it's I don't know, I I feel weird.
Me personally feel I feel weirdif it's a closed mouth kiss for
more than like I honestly, youknow, with a girlfriend it's
it's not going to ever be aclosed mouth kiss, unless it's
like a kiss on the cheek orsomething, I't know.
Okay, fair enough, I just yeah,I don't know, open mouth it'd
be so awkward for me to standthere for six seconds with a
(22:29):
closed mouth how about thisquestion then full tongue or no
tongue?
it gets involved.
It gets involved when necessary.
Dan (22:38):
I read the room it's just, you're the only one of us doing.
You're the only one of us doingthis right now.
Charles (22:42):
I say the expert yeah, listen, it's not something where
somebody's gonna walk by and gooh my god, you two get a room.
Dan (22:48):
It's not like, it's not over the top, like that well,
I'm not currently doing this,but I will, uh, I will.
I will try to add it to my, uh,my repertoire and see, uh, um,
I'm, yeah, my girlfriend likeskissing, so I'm sure she'll,
she'll be down, yeah, definitely, um, okay.
Second one is date her.
Just because you now, uh, livetogether or spend a lot of time
(23:10):
together, um, you're not off thehook for going on dates and, uh
, I, I am a fan of a schedule ofyou know, one date night a week
, one night away from home amonth and one vacation a year at
a minimum.
If, uh, if you can't afford it,I get it, but try to figure out
(23:31):
ways to to afford it.
You know, go on, go onPriceline, get a, get a cheap
hotel room, even just the nexttown over, and try to try to get
away once a month from, youknow, the, the housework and the
kids that spend some time awayand it feels, it feels more,
more, more romantic when you're,when you're getting away from
uh, from home.
Oh absolutely yeah.
Charles (23:51):
The excitement of seeing new things definitely
triggers different hormonalreleases in our brain.
I think so Dopamine, I'm sureit's released as well, and and
some sort of adrenaline, and youknow that that level of
excitement, you know, raises our, our energy levels, in our
state, and and that definitelyum can be a foundation of of a
(24:20):
romantic connection at thatpoint too.
Dan (24:20):
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, okay, he does.
Uh, the Gottmans have a bookcalled uh 10 dates conversations
that lead to a lifetime of love, which was written by the same
four people that wrote the Man'sGuide to Women.
So if you'd like to we're notgoing to be discussing that book
next but if you'd like to keepyour Gottman education going,
that might be a good way to dothat I may go ahead and get it
(24:40):
from.
I was telling you the other dayI've got just a crap ton of
audible credits that I've notgone through, so that might be a
good one to add to my own queueas well.
Charles (24:50):
Yeah, I didn't realize that if you've got a Spotify
premium membership, it includesa lot of Audible books or audio
books.
I shouldn't say Audible books,but audio books.
Okay, I don't know if any ofthe Gottman stuff is on there,
but just wanted to mention thatin case anybody's listening and
didn't realize stuff is on there.
But just wanted to mention thatin case anybody's listening
then didn't realize, cause Ionly listened to Spotify for the
music and somebody was like ohyou know, you can get it for you
know this book for free, youknow on versus paying for an
(25:12):
audible subscription.
Dan (25:13):
So yeah, I wish, I wish YouTube music had, uh, had
something like that, Cause I'vebeen paying for YouTube premium
for years and, uh, you know, sofar what I get is no commercials
on my YouTube videos and a lotof mockery from people younger
than me that I have YouTubemusic instead of Spotify.
But that's OK, I don't mind.
(25:35):
I don't mind mockery when, whenI'm getting what I need and I
watch so many YouTube videosthat if I, if I, had to sit
through commercials, I wouldkill myself.
It's the worst.
Yeah, ok.
So the next, next point get toknow her um and uh, he reminds
(25:56):
us.
You know how, when we got intoour relationship, we would
always have, uh, you know, theselong conversations with our
partner and how much we probablyenjoyed those long
conversations.
And you know, in anyrelationship when, when you get
used to someone and you get usedto your situation, it can be
easy to just go on cruisecontrol and and stop, because,
(26:16):
look when, when those hormoneswear off, it's very easy to not
do the same things you did backwhen you were high on high on
drugs and when there, you know,was when the novelty was high
and everything felt new, it waseasy to do things that may not
feel as new and exciting whenyou're six months or six years
(26:37):
or six decades into arelationship.
So he recommends doing thingslike asking open-ended questions
.
Um, there are plenty of reallycool couples games, either
available on your phone oravailable as card games, where
you can sort of get into it withyour partner of hey, let's ask
some thought-provoking questionsof each other to get to know
each other even better than wealready do, and I certainly
(26:59):
recommend doing that.
Having those interestingconversations about what
people's values and hopes anddreams are will definitely help
you feel closer.
Feel closer to somebody.
Um, appreciate her, complimenther, thank her, admire her, use
your words and your actions toshow her how much you know, you
love and value her.
That's a certainly great adviceand uh, we'll, we'll help build
(27:23):
that uh bank of positivefeelings so that when, when
trouble comes, you know, knowyou're not just wanting to cut
and run.
Neither of you are wanting tocut and run because, oh, life's
hard now and I didn't sign upfor that.
Uh, honor her dreams, you know.
Figure out what she's into,what she sees as being a good
future and a good life together.
(27:44):
Uh, is there, you know?
Is it?
Marriage, family, kids is it acareer?
Is it traveling to a place?
I mean, just find out like, hey, if, if time, money and effort
were infinite, how would you bespending your days?
And then you know, try torecreate some of that in her
life, and hopefully she'slooking to recreate that in
(28:05):
yours as well.
Charles (28:06):
Yeah, that's great.
Dan (28:09):
Another reminder that the two complaints that most women
have about men are he's neverthere for me and there isn't
enough intimacy and connection.
And on the other side, thecomplaints that men had about
relationships and about theirpartners was we don't have sex
(28:30):
enough and we fight too much.
And so just be aware that tokeep those from getting out of
control, you got to put work in,and you know we we talk about
that on this show all the timethat you know it's not
complicated to be in good shapeor rich or have a good
relationship with your partner.
It's fairly simple, but thatdoesn't make it easy, and so you
(28:52):
know you can.
You can either rely on yourday-to-day motivation for
getting those things done or youcan try to put in systems where
it happens almost automatically, because you're just used to
living your life that way and Iwould say yeah, yeah, when it
comes to your relationship.
Take some of these things likeum, appreciating her, dating her
(29:15):
, giving her that six secondkiss when you say hello or
goodbye, and figure out a way tosystematize it so that it it's
easy and it happensautomatically because, again, if
you, if you only do the rightthing when you feel like doing
the right thing.
You're going to have a wholelife of not doing the right
thing.
Charles (29:31):
Yeah, um, the the way to systematize it is to just
keep practicing it.
That's it, just doing it, andeventually it just gets easier
and easier and easier andbecomes part of who you are, and
then that's just how youinteract and how you maintain
yourself when you are in arelationship.
Same way, you have a certainway of doing things and thinking
and working in a job.
(29:53):
Right, it's just because you'vedone the same thing typically
for over and over and over again.
And so be aware of the actionsthat you're going to take and
the interactions you're going tohave and how you're going to
handle a romantic relationship.
You're showing up the way youwant to show up and practice
those things.
And, yeah, sometimes coming upwith questions, open-ended
(30:18):
questions, might not besomething you normally do and it
sounds like, oh my God, it's apain.
Where am I going to get thisinformation?
I'm going to schedule time todo this.
I don't have any time.
When are we going to do this?
Doesn't sound like that muchfun, but you got to push past
that a little bit.
Do it a few times and you'llsurprise yourself and look for
going in, go into it, lookingfor ways to enjoy it, and then
(30:40):
the next time you do it it'sgoing to be a little bit easier
because you've already done itand you you know that you're
going to enjoy it in certainways and obviously keep an eye
and make sure that your partnerenjoys it too.
But the more you do it, theeasier it's going to be and the
more enjoyment you'll get out ofit.
Dan (30:58):
And less work is great, and it can be something as easy as
hey.
Before we start the next episodeof this TV show we're watching,
let me pull up this app on myphone.
That's gonna, you know, ask usboth a question that we can
answer for each other.
And you know, yeah, if you wantto, uh, I agree with you that
you know the way you get betterat stuff like this is by
(31:20):
practicing it and doing it allthe time, and fortunately, there
are things available like appsthat can help remind you to do
stuff like this, and there'salso books like Tiny Habits and
Atomic Habits, where it's likeokay, here's how I can tie this
thing that I want to start doingwith this other thing that I
(31:41):
already do.
Just make it easy on yourself,because, yeah, no, very few
people, you know, start wake uptomorrow and say I want to be a
marathon runner, so I'm going togo out and put in my 26 miles,
starting tomorrow, and it justchange doesn't happen that way.
(32:02):
It happens with, you know,doing what's what's something I
could start doing tomorrow thatI didn't do today.
That is going to both bemanageable and make me feel like
I'm moving in the rightdirection, and so go back to our
series on tiny habits, andwe'll share all those with you.
Charles (32:20):
Yeah, string along those little green checkboxes
and those wins so that you feelgood about doing it.
Feel good about doing it andmake it so easy that you need to
struggle to do them, but justkeep them consistently, keep
racking them up, because that'sgoing to build up your those
good feelings and it's going tomotivate you to do more.
So don't and again, you know,this time of year everybody's
kind of quitting their newyear's resolutions, I feel at
(32:42):
this point.
So a lot of people I'm seeingare going so hard right out of
the gate because they ate or oryou know, we're negligent for
like the last month of of 2024,and they feel guilty and they
feel like, oh, my God, I got it,I need to make up for lost time
.
And they just go too hard witheverything, whatever.
That is too extreme and that'snot sustainable.
(33:02):
And then you're going to feelbad about yourself when you fail
, but you're setting yourself upfor failure because you're
going from negative five to ahundred instead of negative five
to two or three.
So, just kind of, and it's hardbecause, listen, I'm guilty of
that too, absolutely, with somany things and there's so many
times where I'm I'm never going.
Oh, I need to make this harder,right, I'm always like.
(33:25):
I'm always like.
You know.
I when, when I'm I'm doingsomething, it's like a lot of
times like you know what.
I really should be making thiseasier so I get this done and I
can continue to do this in aconsistent way, but my brain
immediately goes to it's notenough.
Dan (33:40):
Yeah, and it's interesting, one of our favorite fitness
guys that we listen to onYouTube is Mike Isretel.
That Dr Mike Isretel and, uh,he did Dr Mike Isretel, please
Sorry, dr Mike is.
Yeah, he didn't spend all thattime in medical school for
people to just call him Mike, Isuppose.
Um, he did bring up in one ofhis videos the challenge of
(34:01):
trying to go too slowly, which Iwas like this is interesting, I
can't hold anybody.
I can't believe anybody doesthat.
Where he was like yeah, if you,if you're trying to lose weight
and you decide I'm going to tryto lose five pounds a week,
yeah, you're going to crash andburn because you can't do that
sustainably.
Um, you know, unless you're,unless you have a ton to lose,
but eventually you're going toget to the point where I can't
lose five pounds a week anymoreand and I would say only that's
(34:31):
only a healthy thing if you arelike three or more times the
weight you should be is, islosing five pounds a week a good
idea.
But he also said if you go downto I'm gonna try to lose a
quarter pound a week, that's notgoing to be sustainable either,
because after a few weeks of aquarter pound.
You're going to look at thescale and the calendar and feel
like I'm not doing anything,this isn't working, and but it
was just so.
It was so novel to me becauseit's like I would never do that.
(34:54):
That would never be my problem.
I would never.
Charles (34:55):
I would never come up with a plan to go too slowly,
yeah, and I don't think manypeople would, though I'll be
honest with you.
Dan (34:59):
I think you know everybody wants yesterday, right, but I
could see if you've tried andfailed too many times that go
big or go home, you might swingto that other extreme.
Yeah, okay, and then, and thenjust figure out a new way to
lose it.
Charles (35:13):
You're at meeting your goals.
Yeah, I can't say I've everdone that, or well, maybe I have
and I just it was so shortlythat I forgot about it.
But I think, yeah, it'sdemotivating because you're not
seeing any progress.
And so you define that healthybalance of where you feel like
you're making progress andthat's where you kind of need to
(35:34):
look at, even if it's lessweight than you want a week.
But you have to look at hey,I'm consistent.
You need to also get some sortof motivation and gratification
out of the hey, I've beenconsistent, I've been doing this
program and been and been ableto check off the these wins for
(35:54):
six weeks now.
Right, and I've did it.
I've done it every week for sixweeks and that's right.
I feel good about that.
And for me, that was actuallypart of like that 75 heart piece
of that was just the length oftime.
I had never stuck to oneprogram or doing one.
I mean, I dabble in all thesedifferent little productivity
tools and morning routines andhabits and stuff like that, but
(36:14):
they've always changed afterlike two or three weeks.
Dan (36:17):
I've never focused on needing to do it for such a long
time and saying, okay, that'spart of my win is being able to
do that for every single day for75 days yeah, it's funny we we
had that conversation before youstarted, where I I remember
telling you, like dan, I thinkthe hardest part for you is
(36:39):
going to be picking a diet forthe next 75 days and not finding
a better diet three weeks inthat you like better.
Charles (36:48):
And part of it, but it wasn't even just that, but also
reading 10 pages.
I mean, I enjoy that whenever,but again I would let it go.
I'd be like, oh, I you know,I'm busy today, or I missed my
window in the morning when Inormally do it, so it was just
easy to just go.
Nah, I'll just do tomorrow, butthere's something to be said
for that.
But you're forcing yourself todo that.
Dan (37:10):
I forget.
And so, taking this back toyour relationship, it's like,
yeah, don't try to do all thesethings at once.
Where you're like I'm going tofix every single one of these
issues, I'm going to start thesix second kiss.
I'm going to start the weeklydate night, I'm going to start
the you know, let's have theseopen-ended question
conversations.
I mean, yeah, some of these arenot that big, so it's, it's not
(37:33):
going to be hard to do two ofthem maybe.
But yeah, if you, if you try to,if you hit the realization of,
okay, my relationship has a lotof problems, so, starting
tomorrow, I'm going to fix allthose problems, that's, that's
not going to be sustainable.
And your partner you'reprobably in a different place
(37:56):
with trying to open up the hoodand fix some of these things
than your partner is and youkind of need some level of
buy-in from your partner on thisstuff too, where you can't just
decide, hey, I'm going to fixour troubled relationship
tomorrow and she better be onboard, or else, well, that's,
that's just another trouble thatyou're introducing into the
relationship in this case, whatyou're talking about is
absolutely true.
Charles (38:14):
You have a much bigger role in terms of the other
person.
Have is a much bigger role interms of any of the, these new
routines, these new things thatyou're trying to do, whereas the
stuff that we're talking about,you know, diet, diet or reading
or whatever that's that'smostly on you, and I mean so, I
think, also communicating whatyou're trying to do, because you
(38:35):
know, if you're not used togiving a six second kiss, you
might need to communicate thatit might come across a little
bit weird to the, to yourpartner, or you know some of the
, some of these other thingsthat you're doing or kind of
bringing up, especially ifyou're kind of ingrained in
routines for many years andcertain you know, certain things
are just that's just notsomething that you do.
(38:56):
It could raise some sort ofsuspicion or whatever.
So don't be afraid tocommunicate what you're trying
to do here.
Dan (39:02):
You know, no, I think you definitely should have that
communication and say, hey, Iread this book.
It's got some recommendationsand we can all start the six
second kiss tomorrow or today.
And uh, yeah, just give yourpartner a heads up Like, hey,
this really smart guy who has apodcast, no, this really smart
guy who wrote a book says thatyou know the.
(39:24):
The evidence is there that thisis a good thing that we should
do, and I'd like to start doingit right now.
So go ahead and do that then,yeah, and uh, yeah, I'm going to
.
I'm going to tell my girlfriend, um, next time I see her that
we're we're going to kiss forsix seconds at hello and goodbye
and we'll uh, we'll try toremember to do that.
Charles (39:51):
Do you ever forget?
Oh, sure, all the time, okay, ohyeah, I mean, I'm not, I'm, I'm
definitely not doing, you know,but when I remember, I, you
know, I, I try, and there's, youknow, like I said, there's
other times where, like in themorning, you know, when we're
both of us even like have abrush or teeth or whatever it's,
it's a different kind of kiss,right, it's like.
And then, uh, yeah, so the otherthing to kind of keep in mind
here is, if you were to bringthis up to your partner, I could
(40:13):
see certain situations wherethey think everything is good
and they're happy and like, well, why are you reading this book?
Like, is there something wrong,you know, with our relationship
?
And that could be a little bitof an, you know, an awkward
conversation, and if I was inthat position, I would say
something like, uh, no, thingsare good, but they could always
be better, and I don't want tous to lose the fire that we have
(40:35):
between us.
And and, uh, you know, I wantto, I want to do as much as I
can to support us and therelationship.
And and so, you know this, thisbook really had some really
cool ideas and you know, know I.
Dan (40:48):
I want to try some of them and invite her to read it too
yeah, I think that, uh, mostwomen are open, more open to the
idea of.
You know, hey, I I read thisbook by this smart guy and I
just I'm just down to makethings even better than they are
.
Oh, that's a win right there.
I think guys may feel a littlebit more challenged and a little
(41:09):
bit more defensive in the faceof that conversation than most
women in my experience.
I agree, yep, but yeah, I thinkyou know the because you know,
men don't seem to be veryincentivized to think about or
talk about relationships as muchas women are.
In our culture, which that's aninteresting point that Robert
Glover brings up, you know wehave this sort of expectation
(41:33):
that women are better atrelationships than men.
But what it really is is womenare just more encouraged to
think about and talk aboutrelationships than men, and so
it seems like, because theythink about it and talk about it
more, they may or may not bebetter at it.
Because they think about it andtalk about it more, they may or
may not be better at it, butgenerally speaking, when you
find yourself in a relationshipwith someone, they're going to
(41:55):
have usually a similar level ofrelationship skill and
competence that you do.
They're not going to be waybetter or way worse at
relationships, because if theywere, they wouldn't be in a
relationship with you, I think.
People on the same level ofrelationship skills and mental
health or mental illness, theyseem to find each other.
And so, um, yeah, your, yourpartner, may talk about
(42:21):
relationships more.
She may read aboutrelationships more.
She may, you know, have havemore experience with
relationship terminology.
But the actual skills of beinggood at a relationship, they may
or may not be there and theymay or may not be higher or
lower than yours.
So, um, but the good news is,as men going to women to say,
hey, I want to, I want to makethings even better, it's a
(42:43):
little easier for us to bring upthat conversation than it
usually is for women to bring upthat conversation.
Charles (42:48):
Yeah, that's a good point.
Dan (42:49):
That's a good point.
If my partner brought up youknow, hey, I read this book
about relationships and I thinkwe should change some things I
would definitely have adefensive Whoa, wait a second,
what are you?
What are you trying to tell mehere?
Yeah, there, I think.
I think women are less likelyto have that reaction.
Charles (43:05):
That's a fair point.
Dan (43:08):
So, all right, that is going to be the end of our time
on the Man's Guide to Women bythe Gottmans.
For our next trick, we are goingto visit another one of the
books that I put on my MountRushmore of relationship books
for men, which is DatingEssentials for men by Robert
(43:30):
Glover, and, uh, we are onlygoing to do part one of that
book, where part one reallyfocuses more on a man's
relationship to himself and theideas that he has about himself,
about the world, about women,about dating, and we're going to
do the first half.
(43:51):
Then we're going to take a breakand do another book and then,
at some point in the future,we're going to come back and
talk about the second half ofthat book and get into a little
bit more of the sort of theaction steps, the tactics of
being a good dater, the tacticsof, uh, being a good dater, and
(44:12):
so hopefully, uh, our audiencewill find value in that, because
we, we enjoy, we enjoy DrGlover's work and, uh, again,
it's, it's not perfect, it's notwise no one, why has nobody
told me this before by Dr Julie,but it's good, and so we'll, uh
, we'll mention the points wherewe diverge with Dr Glover.
But there's not many of them indating essentials for men,
particularly not in the firsthalf yo, I'm excited for it.
(44:35):
He's got a lot of good insightyou got any final thoughts on,
uh, the man's guide to women?
I, I can't.
I can't think of a man I knowthat wouldn't benefit from
reading this book um, no, I mean, yes, I do.
Charles (44:49):
I guess, uh, I was really impressed with the, the
level of details most of thetime that they went into with
with most of the chapters.
I know there's a couple where wewere like, yeah, you're kind of
getting lazy here, but uh, the,you know, it's definitely made
me interested to read more ofsome of the gotman's work and
(45:11):
just knowing that they spent somuch time and energy and
research in terms ofrelationships where they were
able to observe so many couples,like thousands and thousands of
couples, in their, in theirlove lab right where they
basically monitored them, youknow, right, and you know, in
enclosed in, you know, in their,in their, uh, in their captive
(45:35):
environment or in their, intheir houses or their apartments
and we're able to see theirbody interactions and their
conversations and just havingthat amount of insight to what
everybody and so many people andhow they behave and react.
I think a lot of great insightscome out of that, and so I'm
(45:55):
excited to read more of whatthey've written based on that
research, what they've pulledout of that, just to better
understand people myself, othersand the relationships, and
every time I've done that andI've gleaned something that has
made my life easier or happier.
So, yeah, I really I like theirstuff.
Dan (46:16):
Yeah, their, their evidence-based approach really
does appeal to me, where they,you know, they analyze people,
they talk to people, they dosurveys, they, they collect data
and then they report on it,which, you know, feels a lot
better than just hey.
You know, during my career as acounselor, I sat in the office
and I kind of noticed blah, blah, blah.
It's like no, it's more like wecan predict with a 96% level of
(46:41):
certainty which couples aregoing to last and which ones
aren't.
That's the kind of stuff thatreally appeals to me.
So I'm definitely open to doinganother one of their books in
the future, for sure, cool, allright, thanks, dan.
We will stop there for today,and next time we'll be back with
dating essentials for men by drrobert glover.
Sounds good, sir.
All right, take care bye-bye.
(47:02):
Thank you so much for choosingto listen to our entire episode
from start to finish, dan, and Icertainly it.
You can check us out onmindfullymasculinecom, our
website, where you'll find fullvideo episodes, audio episodes
and any other information orresources we decide are worth
sharing.
Thanks.
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