October 6, 2025 • 42 mins
In this week’s episode of The Mindfully Masculine Podcast, Charles and Dan dive into Steven Bartlett’s most-viewed Diary of a CEO interview — his conversation with Robert Greene, author of The 48 Laws of Power.
What starts as a look at Greene’s ideas on seduction, confidence, and power turns into a bigger exploration of what really drives human behavior. Charles and Dan unpack the tension between authenticity and performance, confidence and insecurity, attraction and manipulation. They discuss the fine line between influence and deceit — and why the word seduction can mean either self-mastery or self-deception, depending on the intent behind it.
The conversation also moves beyond power dynamics into addiction, codependence, and vulnerability — including how chasing validation can become its own form of addiction, and why genuine confidence has to be built, not performed.
Topics include:
- Why “seduction” can feel manipulative — and how Greene tries to reframe it
- The difference between cultivating attraction and playing games
- Power as self-control vs. control over others
- The role of confidence, competence, and comfort in your own skin
- Masks, roles, and authenticity in modern life
- How addiction and codependence mirror our search for control
- What real strength looks like in relationships and leadership
If you’ve ever wondered where healthy confidence ends and manipulation begins, this episode offers a nuanced take on the psychology of power, presence, and connection.
Listen, follow, and share The Mindfully Masculine Podcast wherever you get your podcasts, and visit mindfullymasculine.com for more.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Charles (00:00):
I don't know if it's just because of my familiarity
with the work of Robert Gloveror my familiarity with the
Manosphere or my familiaritywith you know people who fancy
themselves as pickup artists.
The word seduction gives me thecreeps every time I hear it.
Dan (00:17):
Yeah.
Charles (00:17):
Because for me it's when I hear seduction, it's like
it's framed as far as getting.
Not it's not being, it'sgetting.
It's like not who can I be,it's what can I get.
Dan (00:33):
To me, my first thought is manipulation.
Charles (00:35):
Yeah, same.
That that that occurs to me aswell.
Welcome to the MindfullyMasculine Podcast.
This is Charles.
In today's episode, Dan and Idive into the most viewed
episode of the Diary of a CEOpodcast, Stephen Bartlett's
conversation with Robert Green,the author of The 48 Laws of
Power.
We unpack Green's ideas onseduction, confidence, and
(00:56):
authenticity, and explore howthey intersect with the themes
we return to often on this showself-mastery, vulnerability, and
what it really means to embodystrength in the modern world.
If you'd like to learn more orcatch past episodes, visit
mindfullymasculine.com.
Thanks and enjoy.
Good morning, Charles.
Good morning, Dan.
How are you?
I am well.
How are you?
I'm well, thank you.
(01:17):
Happy Friday to you.
Happy Friday to you.
We've changed our recording dayfrom Thursday to Friday because
of some new flexibility in myschedule.
So I'm happy to uh to do thisback on Friday like we used to.
And I appreciate youaccommodating my my restricted
schedule.
No, not at all.
It's very it was a very easychange to make.
We were we were doing it onThursday just because when we
(01:38):
switched it to Thursday, I wasdriving all the way from Wesley
Chapel.
And so Thursday worked muchbetter for me because uh I would
come over for my men's group onWednesday night and then just
crash here, and then we'd get upand do it on Thursday.
But now that I am in WinterGarden and it appears I'll be
doing in Winter Garden for thenext year, I'm gonna be staying
(01:59):
at the campground that I like somuch over there.
I'm excited about that.
And uh yeah, today is Friday,October 3rd.
Mm-hmm.
The day that Taylor Swift's newalbum's been released.
Dan (02:11):
Yeah, I have not had it on my calendar at any point, ever.
Charles (02:14):
I've been looking forward to it for a while.
Okay, so we are going tocontinue uh talking about
episodes from the great TheDiary of a CEO podcast that you
and I both enjoy.
And for this week we decided togo with um his biggest episodes
in terms of most views, whichwas when he interviewed Robert
(02:38):
Green, the author of The 48Rules of Power and some other
books.
And uh I thought, sure, let'sgo to his most popular episode.
That that will be good, thatwill be compelling.
And it was good, it wascompelling, but not as much as
ones that we have picked morebased on, oh, we find this
person interesting.
Dan (02:58):
Yeah.
Charles (02:59):
I so when you look at Robert Green, you f your first
thought might be, okay, what isthis guy based on how he looks,
what's he gonna have to tell meabout power, seduction,
confidence, etc.
(03:20):
And then you hear him talk, andyou're like, no, really, what
does this guy have to tell meabout seduction?
Well, because he is I I lookedat him in this, and and no
offense to the guy.
I mean, I I see the value innot judging a book by his cover,
but then I open up the book andI'm like, ugh so this guy is
(03:42):
like he looks like a thenon-charismatic version of Elton
John.
Yeah.
Dan (03:48):
Well, I think it goes to speak to the the the skills of
diarrhea of a CEO team who havea great hook.
The opening of that of thatvideo is And the way they titled
it too.
Right, is is you know, crazyseducers aren't necessarily
attractive.
And you have a picture ofRobert Green, right, who, you
know, needed to could haveeasily improved his appearance
(04:13):
for the show, but I feel likebetween that line and the way
he's looking on that show,people are like, oh my god, what
there's gotta be some amazingsecret here that I need to
discover.
And that's the first thing thatwent through my mind, and I'm
like, I gotta see what this guyhas to say.
Charles (04:28):
But were you and that were you blown away with what he
had to say?
And I was disappointed.
I was too.
And I I think I mean, numberone, you know, they they choose
what keywords to use and what toput in the title based on
what's gonna get him views,what's gonna get him clicks.
I get that.
16 million views this one.
Yes.
I don't know if it's justbecause of my familiarity with
(04:52):
the work of Robert Glover or myfamiliarity with the Manosphere
or my familiarity with you know,people who fancy themselves as
pickup artists.
The word seduction gives me thecreeps every time I hear it.
Dan (05:05):
Yeah.
Charles (05:06):
Because for me, it's when I hear seduction, it's like
it's framed as far as getting.
Not it's not being, it'sgetting.
It's like not who can I be,it's what can I get.
Dan (05:22):
To me, my first thought is manipulation.
Charles (05:24):
Yeah, same.
That that that occurs to me aswell.
And then people will be drawnto it, and you don't have to
work at it.
Now, here's the thing though,when Green starts getting into
defining seduction, he's makingit sound more like attraction.
(05:45):
Yeah.
But I feel like him and theteam at the Diary of CEO are
leaning on the word seductionbecause it's kind of what
unsophisticated people thinkthey need to do to get what they
want out of life.
Yeah.
It's kind of disappointing inthat way.
Dan (06:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh again, it w to me, it wasjust a a trigger word to make
you want to open and watch thevideo.
Charles (06:08):
Right.
Where based on what you and Ihave learned and talked about,
if if anything, it would be atrigger word for me to not watch
it.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Where when I when I hearsomebody like, oh, I'm gonna
tell you the secrets ofseduction, you're like, I got, I
got, I don't have enough timeto waste on on hearing some guy
telling me about what it takesto seduce people.
(06:30):
So I would rather spend my timeon something else than hearing
stories of how you seducepeople.
Yeah.
Dan (06:37):
I think I've gotten to the point of where for me it's not
just hearing your take on thesetechniques.
It's a little bit about howyou're defining seduction.
So everybody has a littledifferent, like you just said,
everybody has a little bit of adifferent flavor of how they
define it.
So for me, that's part of myintrigue and why I was
interested to watch that video.
Charles (06:57):
Yeah, he um he does kind of reframe seduction as I
mean, he he does try to bring inauthenticity, vulnerability,
and and I felt like the thecontent of at least the the
introduction to the episode wasa bit more valuable and
higher-minded than the word Ohfor sure, yeah.
(07:21):
And and he he's talking about alot of the same things of you
know be being what you what yourespect and what you desire,
yeah, and then when you becomethose things, then other people
will be drawn to you.
Yeah, it's like yeah, that thatis how it's supposed to work.
And and I I did like he hadthese this this language was a
(07:42):
little sloppy.
I I like the idea, but itanti-seduction traits, where
it's like, oh, if you are thesethings, you'll be turning people
away from you.
And but I I found like justhaving to package it as
anti-seduction, it felt like Iwas being marketed to, not like
I was being mentored.
And I I I love feeling like I'mbeing mentored, and I hate
(08:04):
feeling like I'm being marketedto.
A lot of that we we talkedabout with Mel Robin's book, and
you know, the way that she kindof framed things and the let
them theory was like, yeah,okay, I feel like I'm being
marketed to, I don't feel likeI'm being mentored.
Yeah, yeah.
Dan (08:19):
That's an interesting point.
Charles (08:21):
That's interesting, yeah.
Do you agree?
I mean, do you um I never feltlike frame it that way to
yourself in the moment?
Dan (08:26):
No, I I don't feel like I'm being marketed to because
there's nothing for me to buy.
So I I mean, in terms of aproduct, maybe, maybe it's a buy
in his philosophy or hisbeliefs or whatever it is.
Charles (08:38):
I mean, I think the goal is when when somebody's
really good though, I mean,yeah, when we when we did the uh
Orion Taraban episode, uh I myreaction to the way he came
across in that interview was Iwant to buy every book this
guy's written and I want to readthem.
And I think that that's gottabe some of the reason that that
uh Robert Green shows up anddoes these interviews.
(08:58):
He's gotta be thinking, yeah,okay, well, if I come across the
way, if I can seduce thelistener, yeah, then they'll go
out and buy all my books.
Dan (09:06):
Right.
Charles (09:06):
And, you know, I I read 48 Rules of Power or whatever
years and years ago, and Iwasn't blown away by it then,
because I my reaction to it wassimilar to my reaction to what a
lot of what he had to say.
That like I've heard thesethings before from other people
who are better at saying them.
And so even if Robert Green wasthe first one to come up with
some of these ideas, some of thepeople who've taken that ball
(09:29):
and run with it since then havefigured out a way to run with
the ball in a way that appealsway more to me.
Yeah.
And I don't feel like I have togo back to his original
material ever again.
Dan (09:38):
Ironically, that's one of his pinnacles of being a seducer
is making sure people feelattracted to you or figuring out
what is going to make peoplefeel comfortable.
So he you talked about ErrolFlynn and how he numerically
had, you know, was the greatestseducer of all time, apparently.
By the time he was 50, like3,000 women he claimed like he
(10:01):
he seduced.
But when they interviewed oneof the actresses that worked
with him, she had said, Well, hejust makes me feel so
comfortable, like I've alreadyhad a couple of drinks.
And so the point that I thinkRobert Green was trying to make
was focus on the feelings thatyou're creating with that other
person and how you're makingthem feel.
And that is a very attractiveseductive technique.
(10:22):
And ironically, he was notmaking you feel the way he wants
you to feel in order topurchase his his stuff.
Charles (10:30):
Right.
And let's talk about the ErrolFlint example.
Yeah, he he died in his 50s andhe allegedly slept with 3,000
women plus.
Yeah.
Dan (10:41):
Well, he was exhausted.
That's why he died early.
I mean, clearly.
Charles (10:43):
That sounds to me that sounds to me like a really sad
life.
I mean, I know he was famous,he probably was very rich.
I mean, he was an actor in somevery big movies, but the time
and dedication that it wouldtake to bed that many women in
that short of a life, it it itdoesn't feel fun to me.
(11:05):
It doesn't it doesn't feel likehe could have possibly that
that is what you do when you'recompelled to do something, not
when you enjoy something.
Dan (11:13):
Humans are wired to have addictions, and maybe that was
his.
Charles (11:17):
Yeah, and I mean speaking of addiction, uh, I'm
I'm gonna do a a short bookreview and release it on our
feed and and in our social mediachannels of All the Way to the
River by Elizabeth Gilbert, anduh which was an amazing book on
addiction and codependence andloss, and it just it blew me
away.
I really I really got a lot outof it.
(11:37):
But people that are in in anaddiction are not happy.
And I I can't imagine thatErrol Flynn has a I disagree.
Dan (11:48):
Oh I disagree the people who are in addiction.
You can't say it for alladdictions because people who
are Yes, I can.
Charles (11:55):
I I don't I don't think so.
If it is an addiction, thatmeans that you are continually
engaging in behavior that youcannot stop in the face of
escalating consequences.
Dan (12:05):
Okay, but that's that's you said that they're not happy.
I think they're very happy.
I think people who are who arestrung out on drugs, they're
happy.
That's why they keep doing it.
It makes them feel good.
It's not that it's productive,not that it's a good thing, not
that it's healthy.
But I feel like if it wasn'tfeeling good for them, if they
weren't happy doing that, whywould they keep doing it?
Charles (12:24):
That's that's why I'm because when you get so far into
an addiction, yeah, you have tomaintain it.
Otherwise, you feel like you'redying.
Okay.
Dan (12:32):
Uh yeah.
Charles (12:34):
I I mean I can understand that, but I still
don't think like the 8,000th hitof heroin does not feel good.
It feels like I need whatever8,000 one or I'm going to die in
agony.
Dan (12:44):
Uh I don't know.
I I mean, I I I I think I Idon't agree with that.
I think the it's not uh uhthat's not a the conscious
thought that somebody has is Ineed to take this, otherwise I'm
gonna die in agony.
I don't think that's thedecision where they're like,
okay, I'm gonna take thisbecause I'm afraid I'm gonna die
(13:05):
in agony.
I feel like more I it's just myopinion.
I just feel like that it wouldbe a little bit more like this
makes me feel good.
I'm not thinking about theseother consequences of not taking
it.
I'm not thinking of these otherthings.
It's just I know what makes mefeel good, and I'm driven to do
those things, and that's what'smaking me happy.
So I I I can understand whatyou're saying.
(13:26):
I I just think the reasonpeople struggle with addictions
is because it's always makingthem feel good, and they're not
they're not really thinkingabout those those consequences.
Charles (13:35):
Yeah, see, my my experience of dealing with
people who are in activeaddiction is not that they're
not doing it because it's fun.
They're doing it because theyfeel like they have to.
Okay.
Like there's a huge or elsehanging out over their head that
they're trying to, you know,and we've talked about, you
know, running toward pleasure,running away from pain.
Yeah.
Every addict I've known, andand when I've been in the middle
(13:59):
of addictive behavior myself,it's never been about, oh, I'm
doing this because it's the bestlife.
I'm doing this.
Dan (14:06):
Well, right.
So I'm not saying they'rethey're they're thinking this is
they're making an amazing life.
Don't get me wrong.
I'm not saying that they'rethinking it's but I think you
know it's that quick dopaminefix in the moment, it's gonna
make me feel good.
I don't think they have any Idon't think they're deluding
themselves into thinking this isan amazing life.
Charles (14:22):
Right.
But yeah, I and I would say I Ithink I think most of us would
say that I'm continuing to useeven though it's ruining my
life, because I'm just trying toget back up to baseline, where
my my time that I stop using isso low that I've got to cut that
(14:43):
even when I want to stop, Icome back to using just to feel
normal again.
Dan (14:46):
Okay, okay.
Charles (14:47):
Yeah, God, that is that is a that is a rough ride to be
on where you're like, you know,I have whether it's alcohol,
drugs, people, relationships,whatever it is, like I have to
continue using this just so thatI can feel normal again.
Yeah.
And again, I feel like ErrolFlynn with his 3,000 ladies,
man.
I mean, when you're dedicatingso much of your time and your
(15:09):
effort in a day to sleeping withnew women, I I again, you know,
maybe when you're in the doubledigits or the triple digits, it
still feels amazing.
But when you're in thequadruple digits, that's where
you draw the line and just saythey don't Four Zeros?
I don't I don't see how I Idon't see how it could be good.
Yeah.
(15:29):
And and how and how it couldfeel good, where you're like,
you know, yes, there are thereare other connections or other
relationships or other goals orother dreams I have, but I have
to maintain, I have to keepputting those on the back burner
because I got to get my numberhigher and higher.
And no matter what it is, Imean, even if it's sales, like I
(15:50):
can't imagine a life like thatwhere it's like not feeling like
you're on a treadmill that youdon't have the controls to.
Like you just have to keeprunning, running, running, and
you can't turn it off, nobodyelse is gonna turn it off for
you.
You're just compelled to keeprunning, or or pushing, you
know, rolling the boulder up thehill, whatever it is.
Like it just yeah, I know onthe surface, you know, when you
(16:11):
hear about a Wilt Chamberlainand Errol Flynn, uh Russell
Brand, whoever's you know, gotthese huge body counts, it's
like, oh, that what an amazinglife that must be like to have
that kind of sexual variety.
And it's like, ooh, I I don'tknow, man.
I think it I think it doesn'tfeel that way.
But you know, like like wetalked about last time, about
(16:33):
the quality of your life isdefined by the quality of your
relationships.
I can't imagine that is a lifethat feels high quality.
Not the quantity of yourrelationships.
Yes, that's not what EstherPerel said.
Dan (16:44):
Well, that would be Yeah, it's so hard with her French
accent.
Charles (16:47):
Real power is not how much you can dominate other
people, it's about being able tocontrol yourself and influence
your environment.
And I would say influence yourenvironment in positive ways,
but I suppose power is neitherpositive or negative.
It's simply it simply is.
But um I I would say that in amy position would be that in a
(17:11):
healthy society, the mostpowerful people are the people
who have the most power overthemselves, but we don't live in
that society.
No we live in a society wheresome very powerful people
seemingly have no control overthemselves whatsoever, and
that's kinda that's roughbecause that trickles down or
rolls downhill, as as you mightsay.
(17:33):
Yeah.
Dan (17:34):
And um But that's the thing, is just because you have
power doesn't mean you haverespect.
Charles (17:41):
Yeah, or I mean you could there there are some
people that you could look atand say, well, he's powerful and
he's respected by a lot ofpeople, if not all people.
Um but he's still I mean, I Ithink of particular political
leaders.
Yeah.
And I'm like I do too.
Dan (17:59):
Yeah.
Charles (18:00):
I would not trade he he he could be the most powerful
man in the world, he could beone of the richest people in the
world.
I would not trade my life withhis tomorrow for anything.
I did like that uh they spent afair amount of time on
confidence in body language,which I appreciated.
And uh I I felt like Green,he's got confidence dead right,
which is confidence can't reallybe fake, not reliably and not
(18:23):
for a long time, because youonly feel confident when you
feel competent, which is youknow something you and I have
been saying on the show for manyyears now.
Today's our fourth hundred our200th episode, by the way.
Oh, congratulations to you aswell.
Thank you.
We've uh we've been at it for awhile.
Um, and I was thinking aboutthis, you know, if if I I've
never participated in any kindof a challenge where it's like,
(18:45):
hey guys, let's go out to thebars and clubs and everybody
should try to get 10 phonenumbers tonight.
Like, pfft, I'm not doing that.
Screw you.
Dan (18:52):
Yeah.
Charles (18:52):
But if I were to do that, I would not be good at it
because I wouldn't feelconfident at it.
Dan (18:58):
Because you haven't practiced that.
Charles (19:00):
Correct.
Yeah.
But when I think about thethings that I am good at and
that I I have practiced at, um,I like public speaking, I like
stand-up comedy, I like sittingin a in a room explaining to
people why the software thatthey spend all this money on
isn't gonna do the thing thatthey want it to do and why they
(19:21):
shouldn't want it to do that,they should want it to do this
instead.
When I'm in those scenarios, Ifeel very confident and I'm
probably oh, uh when I'm atgeneral knowledge, trivia, where
I feel like, okay, if I'm ifI'm alone playing against teams
of people, I'm gonna finish inthe money in the top three.
If I'm with a group of friendswith a couple other smart
(19:41):
cookies, then I'm going to winthis thing.
I'm gonna get first place.
It's just it's just a given.
And I would wager that Iprobably come across as my most
attractive when I'm in thosescenarios because I feel
confident, like, yeah, hey, I'mhere because I belong here and
I'm gonna, I'm gonna excel atthis.
Dan (19:58):
Yeah.
I mean, it it speaks to theprevious video that he talked
about where uh uh Steven wastalking about him and his
girlfriend, and he was reallyattracted to his girlfriend when
he's he saw her in her element.
Exactly when she was teachingthe breathwork classes.
And that is exactly what you'retalking about here in terms of
your confidence.
You are, you you know whatyou're doing, you're competent,
you've done it many times.
(20:20):
And yeah, that really it doesspeak to what Green is talking
about.
And they also made a point toget out and do things so that
you get that competence.
Charles (20:30):
Yes, absolutely.
And that's when when we talkabout relationship or dating
advice, particularly for youngmen on this podcast, the thing I
always say is find something,whatever it is, that you give a
shit enough about to do it oftenenough and intensely enough
that you get really good at it.
And then once you have thatthing in your life that you care
(20:52):
about enough to get really goodat it, then while you are in
your element doing that thing,people will be drawn to you.
So the only challenge is try tomake it something that not only
other dudes just like you areinto.
Because if you choose somethingthat only dudes just like you
are into, you know, unlessyou're attracted to other dudes
(21:13):
just like you, you're not you'renot going to be able to
translate that into a a healthydating life or exciting dating
life.
Dan (21:19):
What what you can do though is practice taking those
feelings of confidence when youare doing those things, whether
it's talking about quantummechanics or or you know,
pickleball, whatever that is.
Right.
And and try to bring some ofthose feelings to those new
situations that you're trying tobecome competent at.
(21:39):
And that will kind of help youget over that hump of resistance
to going out and doing andtrying those new things.
And I've done that in the pastand it's it's worked out pretty
well.
The other thing that'sinteresting about this section
was he was talking about how wecan kind of fake our body
language for confidence, but wecan't fake our voices.
And that's nothing I I've neverheard that before.
(22:00):
He said even trained actors,when they're nervous, tend to
speak a little bit more quickly,they shake their voice a little
bit.
That's something that can't befake, whereas body language can
be a little bit more.
Charles (22:11):
Yeah, you can learn the right body language, but yeah,
that's true.
Dan (22:15):
I never heard that before.
You, I mean, you do a lot ofvoice work.
Uh have you have you heardanything of that before?
Or is it just more like uh thisis the way you want to come
across and you've been trainedto be clear and slow and
confident and the thing I wouldsay is that you you know, like
any, I mean, auditions areessentially interviews, and
(22:35):
interviews are essentiallyauditions.
Charles (22:37):
And if you walk into an interview with the attitude of
this this job or even a date,this is my last hope.
If this doesn't work out forme, I'm done.
There's no way to hide that.
It's gonna come through yourbody language, your voice, just
the vibe you give off, all theyou know, micro expressions.
If if you're walking into asituation with the feeling of
(22:58):
this could be my last chance, ifthis doesn't work out for me,
I'm done.
Yeah, then you're going to putoff a uh this is a this is a
human in crisis, not a human inleadership vibe that's gonna
turn people off and make thempick somebody else over you.
And so, and the only way thatyou can walk into those rooms
for auditions or dates orinterviews, feeling confidence,
(23:20):
feeling real confidence is bybelieving, hey, I I'd like this,
but if it doesn't work out,I'll be okay and I'll I'll
figure out something else.
Um, somebody gave me thisopportunity, I'll get another
opportunity.
Dan (23:31):
Yeah, and I think the other piece of this is realizing
that's closer for the most part,99% of the time, to what
reality is, is you will be okay.
This isn't your last shot.
And where I feel a lot of usjust end up blowing it and
sabotaging ourselves is when weare imagining situations that
(23:53):
are further from reality thanthey actually are.
Charles (23:56):
Yeah.
I mean, if you walk if you walkinto a job interview and your
nervous system is telling youyou're a the squid game, then
yeah, you're going to act likesomebody who's in the squid
game, not somebody who's justinterested in finding out if
this might be a good match foryou.
If this might be a place whereyou can, you know, blossom
professionally.
Right.
And that's the vibe that hiringmanagers want.
(24:18):
They want you coming in theresaying, like, hmm, I wonder if
this would be a good match, ifwe'd be able to work well
together, if I'd be the kind ofemployee they're looking for, if
they'd be the kind of boss thatI'm looking for.
But yeah, if if your nervoussystem is telling you this is
life or death, then you're gonnaact like you're in a life or
death situation.
And the other people who are alittle closer to reality who
realize this isn't life ordeath, they're gonna be put off
(24:40):
by you.
And it's gonna be like, oh,what's it?
Dan (24:41):
I can't trust right.
I can't trust.
Yeah, I can't I can't put mytrust in them that they're gonna
be on the same page with mewhen they can't even recognize
reality for reality.
Charles (24:49):
Yeah.
You know, so that's yeah, andsame with a date when you're
when you're meeting, you know,that gal for the first time for
a coffee or a drink that you meton some dating app, if you walk
into it with the vibe of, oh mygosh, she's so pretty, I'll
never have another chance totalk to a pretty girl like this,
then you're not gonna be fun tobe around and you're not gonna
inspire the feelings in her thatshe's hoping to experience when
(25:12):
she agrees to go out on a datewith you.
Dan (25:13):
Yeah.
Charles (25:14):
I mean, when a girl says yes to going on, she
expects she wants to go have agood time.
And if she's sitting next to aball of neuroticism, she's not
gonna be able to feel goodbecause she it's gonna be clear
that you're not feeling good.
Dan (25:26):
Mm-hmm.
Charles (25:27):
So, unless you're both unhealthy in the same way, and
then maybe she'll enjoy that,but you're not gonna have a
great relationship.
So, um yeah, I liked what hehad to say about that.
Uh, he gets a little bit intoyou know the the value in
recognizing your dark side andseeing the things in you that uh
may not be the most healthy,like narcissism, envy,
(25:50):
aggression, irrationality.
And he makes a good case tosay, listen, if you and this is
something we were talking theother night about uh some of the
patterns of codependent people,and one of the one of the ways
that codependent people try tocontrol the world and the people
around them is by seeingthemselves as only virtuous.
Like I only have goodqualities, I have no bad
(26:12):
qualities, and that gives yousort of sort of gives you the
moral authority that it takes tosay, okay, all these other
people that I, you know, thathave all their problems that I
love or live with or associatewith, they need me to swoop it
and take care of them becausethey can't take care of
themselves.
So there is uh sort of ahaughtiness to codependence that
(26:34):
you don't usually associatewith it.
When you hear aboutcodependence, yeah, it's oh,
it's the poor wife living withthe drug abusive husband.
Right.
But there is a portion of thatof I have to take care of him.
He can't take care of himself,so I have to sweep it and take
care of him for him.
Dan (26:46):
And I think you mentioned it, it is a form of narcissism.
Yeah.
And and he mentions it in thevideo too, was that everybody
has a little bit of narcissismin them.
Charles (26:54):
Yes.
Dan (26:55):
And where a lot of us run into issues is when you don't
recognize that we have that.
Exactly.
Charles (27:00):
When you deny those darker aspects of yourself,
yeah, yeah.
Dan (27:03):
And uh that was enlightening for me because he
went into the way he framed it,yeah, it made sense to me, but
I'd never heard it that waybefore.
And I'm like, oh, I sort oflook at myself, I'm a little bit
like, okay, I can see where itis here and where it is there
and stuff.
And I I felt I felt a littlebit better being aware of it
now.
Charles (27:19):
Yeah, I I did I did too.
And and I did like the way thathe said where you know, when
when you're a kid and you don'tget your need met in the moment,
um then that sort of trainsyou.
And so then you take that intoadulthood.
And when you're an adult andyou don't get a need met from,
you know, a boss, a partner, ora friend, whatever, the way it's
(27:42):
supposed to work is you're ayou're supposed to be able to
retreat into yourself a littlebit and say, okay, well, they
didn't meet my needs, but I havethe ability to meet my own
needs.
It's the self-soothing type ofsituation, okay.
Where the clinical narcissist,the person with n narcissistic
personality disorder, there isnothing inside for them to
retreat into to soothethemselves.
There's just nothing therebecause their parents didn't
(28:04):
fill that tank for them whenthey were very little, sometimes
like less than a year old.
They were neglected, abandoned,not treated that way.
And so that internal tank ofbeing able to soothe yourself
and meet your own needs, it justisn't there.
So what do they do?
Well, they decide, okay, howcan I lash out in anger,
manipulation, gaslighting, uh,stonewalling?
(28:28):
What are the tools that I I gotno tools inside.
So what are the tools I can useto get what I need from the
people around me outside in?
And uh, yeah, that was it wasinteresting how he how he framed
that.
But it is better for us to say,okay, no, I I do have a
tendency where I can getselfish, I can get aggressive
when when people refuse to meetmy needs.
(28:50):
I I don't go about meeting myown needs in the perfect, most
healthy way.
So what are the darkertendencies that I might have so
I can be on the lookout for themand I can kind of keep them in
check and not just, you know,hand steering wheel to him and
say, all right, bad Charles bebad Charles.
He's gonna get what he needsfrom people no matter what.
Dan (29:12):
Did he touch on ways to remedy that as an adult?
And I'm because I'm goingthrough my mind now thinking
about it, and I don't think hedid, but I thought though, he
did touch on trying to beproductive and putting yourself
out there so you can buildcompetence in a lot of areas,
(29:32):
which will bring you in someconfidence.
But um now that I'm thinkingabout it, that might not be
enough in those situations to bereally confident in other areas
to provide value.
So you can kind of rely backon, oh, hey, I am uh, you know,
a a good person.
I've got val inherent value.
(29:54):
But now that I'm thinking aboutit, it's just like, well, then
but your value is kind of tiedto doing these things, and
that's I don't know if that'sreally the same thing.
What are your thoughts aboutthat?
Charles (30:02):
Yeah, I think uh as far as I know, the the only cure
that I have seen for um any anyissues that are um sort of
presenting themselves as aconsequence of a lack of
self-esteem is you've got ityou've got to do hard things for
(30:23):
yourself.
Okay, you can teach yourselfthe lesson that you're worth
doing hard things for.
And whether that is gettinginto therapy, getting into a
recovery group, getting yourfitness under control, getting
your diet under control, gettingyour career under control,
you've got to come up with aplan to do some of those things
that are difficult.
Yeah.
So that when you see yourselfdoing your doing those things
(30:46):
for yourself, you'll get themessage, whether you want to or
not, of I'm worth doingdifficult things for.
Yeah.
Okay.
And that's the only way to doit from inside.
Okay.
Because what uh the uh theopposite that happens when you
decide to just, you know, livewith your codependence and you
make other people the source foryour self-esteem, uh, them
(31:07):
esteem as I call it.
Interesting.
It's going to be, well, thisother person is willing to
sacrifice and do all thesethings for me.
Instead of say, oh, well, thatmust mean I'm a worthy person.
Instead of that, what you dois, no, they there must be
something wrong with them.
And they're willing to investall this time and effort in me,
then they've got a problem.
(31:28):
I'm I'm still worthless, andI'm not going to be convinced
that I'm not worthless.
So therefore, I gotta take themdown off their pedestal and
decide if they're willing tosacrifice for me, if they're
willing to invest in me, theremust be something wrong with
them.
Oh that's rough.
Yeah.
And and that's that is the theroute that most people
struggling with codependencetake.
It is I'm gonna find somebodyelse to make me feel valuable.
(31:50):
Yeah.
And then when you find them andthey are willing to invest in
you to make you feel valuable,your reaction to that is there
must be something wrong withthem.
Because there is no shortcutfor the doing hard things for
yourself version of it, whichseems to be the only thing that
works.
So yeah, it's it is it is quitethe it's quite the unpleasant
carousel to find yourself stuckon.
(32:10):
Oh man.
Hell.
Um, all right.
He does talk about um masks,roles, and authenticity.
And you know, there there issomething to be said for we are
all we all are going to play arole, and we all are going to at
least at some level act the waywe think we need to act in
(32:32):
situations.
And that's not necessarily abad thing.
Yeah.
I mean, you're gonna show upfor your job and act like what
you think a good enough employeeto not get fired has to act
like, at the very least.
Now, ideally, you're in a jobthat you feel passionate about,
and what you produce in that jobis something you can feel good
about, and and that can be itsown reward, as well as the money
(32:52):
that they pay you.
But sometimes, you know, when,especially when you're younger
and you're just having to do thejobs you have to do because you
have to do them, it's gonna bea little bit of, okay, I I need
to show up and act like somebodywho cares about this job more
than they actually do, becausethat's what's expected of me,
and I need this job.
And that's okay.
I don't think that's somethingthat you need to feel unethical
(33:13):
or guilty over.
Dan (33:15):
Yeah, he made a great point that it was a little bit more
common to have that externalpublic-facing role when you're
outside the house and when youcome home to your family, you
have a different type of rolethat you play.
Yeah.
And I agree with them in termsof we as a society are trying to
kind of be that same person athome and in the public, and just
(33:38):
feeling like, hey, I need to bemyself at all times, and are
less willing to take on adifferent type of role or
identity at work, at church, athome, whatever that might be,
and be unokay with it.
Like I feel like we've gottento the point of where we're
like, no, we we need to beourselves all the time.
And then we end up strugglingbecause those it's we're trying
(34:03):
to, you know, fit a square peginto a round hole sometimes,
right?
You can't and and or you feellike you're there's something
wrong with either the job orwith yourself because you're
trying to maintain this thissame self throughout all of
these different situations, andthat might not suit you the
best, and might not suit thatsituation the best either.
(34:26):
And I like that he said it'sokay to have those different
types of identity, and there'snothing there's nothing wrong
with it's uh it's I mean to me,you know, it is a little tough
to swallow at the same timebecause it's like, all right,
are you faking it?
And and but are you reallyhurting anybody if you are
faking that you enjoy that jobto get that job and fulfill
(34:48):
those obligations?
I I you know, I I don't thinkso.
Charles (34:52):
Yeah, I I agree.
I think that uh it's justexpected that as humans we have
to wear different hats and thosehats are going to look
different from each other.
I think that's okay.
Um the key is to just maintainhonesty while you do it and not
(35:12):
not put out a fake identity,just be like, hey, listen, when
I when I show up to work, I'msomebody who does the job that's
expected of them, right?
And I'm gonna do it to the bestof my ability, and I'm not
gonna grumble about it.
And you'll probably come acrosslooking like a pretty good
employee if if you do that.
Yeah.
Um the part where you actuallyenjoy it and you're happy about
it and fulfilled by it, thatusually happens later in your
(35:34):
career.
And sometimes, you know, inmany careers, it kind of peaks
when you're at a certain age,and then after that, you're kind
of just maybe not getting asmuch out of it anymore, but you
still find yourself doing it.
And that's why a lot of people,when they get to their 40s or
50s, decide, I think it's readyto do something I'm ready to do
something new, try somethingelse.
Dan (35:54):
Yeah.
I actually was listening toElizabeth Gilbert's Big Magic.
Uh, once what do you think?
Really good.
It's good.
Really good.
And it's not as woo-woo as youwere making it, or or other
people have made it sound to me.
Yeah.
Not at all.
Not at all.
And a lot of really like goodpractical advice.
And one of them was you can doyour creative love and not
(36:17):
necessarily make that your job.
Like you can do that on theside, and you don't have to make
that your career that you makemoney from.
And she said a lot of peoplethat she knew that made that
creative idea generate money,required to generate money to
replace their job, ruin thatcreativity and ruin that
experience in that because ofall the pressure of having to
(36:40):
make money.
And so now you start limitingthings and changing things
instead of just being open toenjoying that creative pursuit.
So that was enlightening for mewith you know, all the things
that I've been sure, you know,struggling with whatever.
And it's just like, okay, yeah,you can have something that
makes money, and then you canhave something that that
fulfills you.
And it kind of goes to whatwe've been talking about with
(37:01):
having a partner, too, is youcan have multiple people in your
life, or ideally, you havemultiple people in your life who
fulfill different needs, andyou don't put all of those
responsibilities on your yoursignificant other.
Yeah.
Which which has has ruinedrelationships for me in the
past.
Charles (37:17):
Yeah.
And uh speaking ofrelationships, I do want to just
touch briefly on what he saidabout dating.
And uh, I wasn't completelyclear on on his message.
I I did feel like he talked alittle bit about um investing in
dating.
And I think one of the exampleswas, you know, don't show up to
a date with a coupon trying topay a little bit of money at the
restaurant.
(37:37):
Oh my gosh.
But uh yeah, when I waslistened to it, I thought, okay,
this could be misinterpretedas, you know, don't be a cheap
date, be be willing to spendmoney on your dates, but it
really is you don't have tospend much money to have a good
date with somebody, whether it'sa first date or an ongoing date
with your partner.
You just have to invest inmaking it an experience that is
(38:01):
going to be worth remembering.
And and I had the thought onthe driveover today.
We went out to uh dinner onlast Friday, went to that sushi
place.
That was great.
Um, what was it, sushisomething?
What was it?
Sushi Saint.
Dan (38:14):
Yes.
Charles (38:14):
Memory.
It was in an interesting area,and the presentation was very
interesting.
I I liked it.
I thought it was a goodrestaurant.
And I did the whole dinner withmy phone in the car.
Which uh thank you.
Thank you for reminding meabout it.
Yeah.
I sat down with my phone.
I forgot that.
Dan (38:29):
It didn't look like you struggled at all.
Charles (38:31):
I didn't.
Yeah.
No, it wasn't.
I mean, you're welcome.
Dan (38:33):
I was just at entertaining.
Charles (38:34):
You were great, you were great company.
And our waitress was nice too.
But uh yeah, most I was mostlytalking to you, not her.
The um were you the thing thatoccurred to me though was you
know, I've I've taken partnerson at some pretty fancy dates to
some pretty fancy places, andif I were to pick up the phone
(38:59):
and call all of them to do asurvey Don't worry, ladies, if
you're listening, I'm not goingto.
If I were to, I would bet everysingle one of them.
If it was a choice of I'm goingto make some sandwiches and
we're going to put a blanketdown and just eat some dinner at
a park, and I'm going to leavemy phone in the car, or I'm
(39:22):
going to take you to Cadence orVictorian Albert's.
But every time I get anotification, I'm going to pull
my phone out of my pocket andsee if it's something important.
I am quite sure that everysingle one of them would say, I
would rather have the picnic inthe park with your phone in the
car than the fancy meal at thefancy restaurant where every
time your phone vibrates, you'repopping it out to see what it's
(39:44):
about.
Dan (39:44):
Mm-hmm.
Charles (39:44):
Yeah.
And it is a little embarrassingto come to that conclusion at
47 years old.
It's it's frankly ridiculousthat I'm even having to struggle
with that at this age.
At least it feels that way.
But, you know, I mean, part ofwhat I I learned from that uh um
that book, All the Way of theRiver, by Elizabeth Gilbert was
(40:06):
her ability to look at her lifeand the life of her partner and
be able to look back and say,listen, we we behaved exactly
the way that we had to behavebased on the tools we had and
the circumstances we were in.
And so there's no use ingetting mad at old you or the
old version of your partnerbecause everybody is just doing
their best with what they haveavailable to them.
(40:27):
And if you wound back the clockof the universe where every
neuron in your brain and everyatom was back in the same place,
you couldn't have done anythingdifferent.
Yeah.
You would have had everythingwould have gone the same way
that it went because that's theway that it had to go.
Yeah.
And the grace that she'swilling to give, willing and
able to give herself and her nowdeceased partner to be able to
(40:48):
look back and say, look, we wedid what we could do based on
just like the thing aboutknowledge and hindsight is you
don't get to apply today'sknowledge to what happened 20
years ago.
It just doesn't work that way.
Correct.
Yeah, you only have today'sknowledge today because of the
stuff you went through 20 yearsago.
Dan (41:03):
So what I've recently discovered is you can still use
those that that those thoughtsand those feelings of upset or
being disappointed with yourpast self to impact your future.
Charles (41:14):
To impact your present and your future.
Right.
Dan (41:16):
To help you get over that hump of discomfort from leaving
the phone in the car.
Charles (41:20):
Right.
I'm not going to, yeah.
I'm I am not I am never goingto spend another meal with
somebody I care about distractedby what's going on on Twitter
or Instagram or Facebook orCNN.com or any of that stuff.
It's just too, you know, I amthere there are fewer years
ahead than there are behind atthis point.
And spending dates or dinnerswith friends with glued to my
(41:46):
phone, I I don't have I don'thave enough time left to do
that.
Yeah.
So that's great.
What's the thing about it too?
Please remind me.
Yeah.
Because I'm going to do my bestto remember to leave it in the
car.
I may even put a post-it in mycar that says Okay.
Yep.
If you're about to see, ifyou're going to see somebody you
care about, leave the phonehere.
Yeah.
So that I remember to do it.
But yeah, definitely remind me.
You and I have a uh reservationin a couple weeks that I'm
(42:08):
really excited about, and uh Iam not going to ruin it by
bringing my phone too.
Dan (42:13):
I'll bring an extra one for you at the table.
Charles (42:16):
Just bring a pacifier that's been painted to look like
an iPhone, and I'll just put itinto my mouth and suck on it
whenever I feel like I need touh get my phone out of my
pocket.
All right, thanks very much,Dan.
We'll do another one of thesenext week, and hopefully it'll
be one we both find a little bitmore compelling.
Sounds good.
All right, bye.
That's gonna do it for thisepisode of the Mindfully
Masculine Podcast.
If this conversation sparkssomething for you, share the
episode with a friend who wouldappreciate it.
(42:37):
New episodes drop just aboutevery single week, so make sure
you're following MindfullyMasculine wherever you get your
podcasts.
As always, you can find fullaudio and video episodes at
mindfullymasculine.com.
Thanks for listening to thewhole episode.
We appreciate it, and we'll beback next time.
I don't know if it's just because of my familiarity
with the work of Robert Gloveror my familiarity with the
Manosphere or my familiaritywith you know people who fancy
themselves as pickup artists.
The word seduction gives me thecreeps every time I hear it.
Dan (00:17):
Yeah.
Charles (00:17):
Because for me it's when I hear seduction, it's like
it's framed as far as getting.
Not it's not being, it'sgetting.
It's like not who can I be,it's what can I get.
Dan (00:33):
To me, my first thought is manipulation.
Charles (00:35):
Yeah, same.
That that that occurs to me aswell.
Welcome to the MindfullyMasculine Podcast.
This is Charles.
In today's episode, Dan and Idive into the most viewed
episode of the Diary of a CEOpodcast, Stephen Bartlett's
conversation with Robert Green,the author of The 48 Laws of
Power.
We unpack Green's ideas onseduction, confidence, and
(00:56):
authenticity, and explore howthey intersect with the themes
we return to often on this showself-mastery, vulnerability, and
what it really means to embodystrength in the modern world.
If you'd like to learn more orcatch past episodes, visit
mindfullymasculine.com.
Thanks and enjoy.
Good morning, Charles.
Good morning, Dan.
How are you?
I am well.
How are you?
I'm well, thank you.
(01:17):
Happy Friday to you.
Happy Friday to you.
We've changed our recording dayfrom Thursday to Friday because
of some new flexibility in myschedule.
So I'm happy to uh to do thisback on Friday like we used to.
And I appreciate youaccommodating my my restricted
schedule.
No, not at all.
It's very it was a very easychange to make.
We were we were doing it onThursday just because when we
(01:38):
switched it to Thursday, I wasdriving all the way from Wesley
Chapel.
And so Thursday worked muchbetter for me because uh I would
come over for my men's group onWednesday night and then just
crash here, and then we'd get upand do it on Thursday.
But now that I am in WinterGarden and it appears I'll be
doing in Winter Garden for thenext year, I'm gonna be staying
(01:59):
at the campground that I like somuch over there.
I'm excited about that.
And uh yeah, today is Friday,October 3rd.
Mm-hmm.
The day that Taylor Swift's newalbum's been released.
Dan (02:11):
Yeah, I have not had it on my calendar at any point, ever.
Charles (02:14):
I've been looking forward to it for a while.
Okay, so we are going tocontinue uh talking about
episodes from the great TheDiary of a CEO podcast that you
and I both enjoy.
And for this week we decided togo with um his biggest episodes
in terms of most views, whichwas when he interviewed Robert
(02:38):
Green, the author of The 48Rules of Power and some other
books.
And uh I thought, sure, let'sgo to his most popular episode.
That that will be good, thatwill be compelling.
And it was good, it wascompelling, but not as much as
ones that we have picked morebased on, oh, we find this
person interesting.
Dan (02:58):
Yeah.
Charles (02:59):
I so when you look at Robert Green, you f your first
thought might be, okay, what isthis guy based on how he looks,
what's he gonna have to tell meabout power, seduction,
confidence, etc.
(03:20):
And then you hear him talk, andyou're like, no, really, what
does this guy have to tell meabout seduction?
Well, because he is I I lookedat him in this, and and no
offense to the guy.
I mean, I I see the value innot judging a book by his cover,
but then I open up the book andI'm like, ugh so this guy is
(03:42):
like he looks like a thenon-charismatic version of Elton
John.
Yeah.
Dan (03:48):
Well, I think it goes to speak to the the the skills of
diarrhea of a CEO team who havea great hook.
The opening of that of thatvideo is And the way they titled
it too.
Right, is is you know, crazyseducers aren't necessarily
attractive.
And you have a picture ofRobert Green, right, who, you
know, needed to could haveeasily improved his appearance
(04:13):
for the show, but I feel likebetween that line and the way
he's looking on that show,people are like, oh my god, what
there's gotta be some amazingsecret here that I need to
discover.
And that's the first thing thatwent through my mind, and I'm
like, I gotta see what this guyhas to say.
Charles (04:28):
But were you and that were you blown away with what he
had to say?
And I was disappointed.
I was too.
And I I think I mean, numberone, you know, they they choose
what keywords to use and what toput in the title based on
what's gonna get him views,what's gonna get him clicks.
I get that.
16 million views this one.
Yes.
I don't know if it's justbecause of my familiarity with
(04:52):
the work of Robert Glover or myfamiliarity with the Manosphere
or my familiarity with you know,people who fancy themselves as
pickup artists.
The word seduction gives me thecreeps every time I hear it.
Dan (05:05):
Yeah.
Charles (05:06):
Because for me, it's when I hear seduction, it's like
it's framed as far as getting.
Not it's not being, it'sgetting.
It's like not who can I be,it's what can I get.
Dan (05:22):
To me, my first thought is manipulation.
Charles (05:24):
Yeah, same.
That that that occurs to me aswell.
And then people will be drawnto it, and you don't have to
work at it.
Now, here's the thing though,when Green starts getting into
defining seduction, he's makingit sound more like attraction.
(05:45):
Yeah.
But I feel like him and theteam at the Diary of CEO are
leaning on the word seductionbecause it's kind of what
unsophisticated people thinkthey need to do to get what they
want out of life.
Yeah.
It's kind of disappointing inthat way.
Dan (06:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh again, it w to me, it wasjust a a trigger word to make
you want to open and watch thevideo.
Charles (06:08):
Right.
Where based on what you and Ihave learned and talked about,
if if anything, it would be atrigger word for me to not watch
it.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Where when I when I hearsomebody like, oh, I'm gonna
tell you the secrets ofseduction, you're like, I got, I
got, I don't have enough timeto waste on on hearing some guy
telling me about what it takesto seduce people.
(06:30):
So I would rather spend my timeon something else than hearing
stories of how you seducepeople.
Yeah.
Dan (06:37):
I think I've gotten to the point of where for me it's not
just hearing your take on thesetechniques.
It's a little bit about howyou're defining seduction.
So everybody has a littledifferent, like you just said,
everybody has a little bit of adifferent flavor of how they
define it.
So for me, that's part of myintrigue and why I was
interested to watch that video.
Charles (06:57):
Yeah, he um he does kind of reframe seduction as I
mean, he he does try to bring inauthenticity, vulnerability,
and and I felt like the thecontent of at least the the
introduction to the episode wasa bit more valuable and
higher-minded than the word Ohfor sure, yeah.
(07:21):
And and he he's talking about alot of the same things of you
know be being what you what yourespect and what you desire,
yeah, and then when you becomethose things, then other people
will be drawn to you.
Yeah, it's like yeah, that thatis how it's supposed to work.
And and I I did like he hadthese this this language was a
(07:42):
little sloppy.
I I like the idea, but itanti-seduction traits, where
it's like, oh, if you are thesethings, you'll be turning people
away from you.
And but I I found like justhaving to package it as
anti-seduction, it felt like Iwas being marketed to, not like
I was being mentored.
And I I I love feeling like I'mbeing mentored, and I hate
(08:04):
feeling like I'm being marketedto.
A lot of that we we talkedabout with Mel Robin's book, and
you know, the way that she kindof framed things and the let
them theory was like, yeah,okay, I feel like I'm being
marketed to, I don't feel likeI'm being mentored.
Yeah, yeah.
Dan (08:19):
That's an interesting point.
Charles (08:21):
That's interesting, yeah.
Do you agree?
I mean, do you um I never feltlike frame it that way to
yourself in the moment?
Dan (08:26):
No, I I don't feel like I'm being marketed to because
there's nothing for me to buy.
So I I mean, in terms of aproduct, maybe, maybe it's a buy
in his philosophy or hisbeliefs or whatever it is.
Charles (08:38):
I mean, I think the goal is when when somebody's
really good though, I mean,yeah, when we when we did the uh
Orion Taraban episode, uh I myreaction to the way he came
across in that interview was Iwant to buy every book this
guy's written and I want to readthem.
And I think that that's gottabe some of the reason that that
uh Robert Green shows up anddoes these interviews.
(08:58):
He's gotta be thinking, yeah,okay, well, if I come across the
way, if I can seduce thelistener, yeah, then they'll go
out and buy all my books.
Dan (09:06):
Right.
Charles (09:06):
And, you know, I I read 48 Rules of Power or whatever
years and years ago, and Iwasn't blown away by it then,
because I my reaction to it wassimilar to my reaction to what a
lot of what he had to say.
That like I've heard thesethings before from other people
who are better at saying them.
And so even if Robert Green wasthe first one to come up with
some of these ideas, some of thepeople who've taken that ball
(09:29):
and run with it since then havefigured out a way to run with
the ball in a way that appealsway more to me.
Yeah.
And I don't feel like I have togo back to his original
material ever again.
Dan (09:38):
Ironically, that's one of his pinnacles of being a seducer
is making sure people feelattracted to you or figuring out
what is going to make peoplefeel comfortable.
So he you talked about ErrolFlynn and how he numerically
had, you know, was the greatestseducer of all time, apparently.
By the time he was 50, like3,000 women he claimed like he
(10:01):
he seduced.
But when they interviewed oneof the actresses that worked
with him, she had said, Well, hejust makes me feel so
comfortable, like I've alreadyhad a couple of drinks.
And so the point that I thinkRobert Green was trying to make
was focus on the feelings thatyou're creating with that other
person and how you're makingthem feel.
And that is a very attractiveseductive technique.
(10:22):
And ironically, he was notmaking you feel the way he wants
you to feel in order topurchase his his stuff.
Charles (10:30):
Right.
And let's talk about the ErrolFlint example.
Yeah, he he died in his 50s andhe allegedly slept with 3,000
women plus.
Yeah.
Dan (10:41):
Well, he was exhausted.
That's why he died early.
I mean, clearly.
Charles (10:43):
That sounds to me that sounds to me like a really sad
life.
I mean, I know he was famous,he probably was very rich.
I mean, he was an actor in somevery big movies, but the time
and dedication that it wouldtake to bed that many women in
that short of a life, it it itdoesn't feel fun to me.
(11:05):
It doesn't it doesn't feel likehe could have possibly that
that is what you do when you'recompelled to do something, not
when you enjoy something.
Dan (11:13):
Humans are wired to have addictions, and maybe that was
his.
Charles (11:17):
Yeah, and I mean speaking of addiction, uh, I'm
I'm gonna do a a short bookreview and release it on our
feed and and in our social mediachannels of All the Way to the
River by Elizabeth Gilbert, anduh which was an amazing book on
addiction and codependence andloss, and it just it blew me
away.
I really I really got a lot outof it.
(11:37):
But people that are in in anaddiction are not happy.
And I I can't imagine thatErrol Flynn has a I disagree.
Dan (11:48):
Oh I disagree the people who are in addiction.
You can't say it for alladdictions because people who
are Yes, I can.
Charles (11:55):
I I don't I don't think so.
If it is an addiction, thatmeans that you are continually
engaging in behavior that youcannot stop in the face of
escalating consequences.
Dan (12:05):
Okay, but that's that's you said that they're not happy.
I think they're very happy.
I think people who are who arestrung out on drugs, they're
happy.
That's why they keep doing it.
It makes them feel good.
It's not that it's productive,not that it's a good thing, not
that it's healthy.
But I feel like if it wasn'tfeeling good for them, if they
weren't happy doing that, whywould they keep doing it?
Charles (12:24):
That's that's why I'm because when you get so far into
an addiction, yeah, you have tomaintain it.
Otherwise, you feel like you'redying.
Okay.
Dan (12:32):
Uh yeah.
Charles (12:34):
I I mean I can understand that, but I still
don't think like the 8,000th hitof heroin does not feel good.
It feels like I need whatever8,000 one or I'm going to die in
agony.
Dan (12:44):
Uh I don't know.
I I mean, I I I I think I Idon't agree with that.
I think the it's not uh uhthat's not a the conscious
thought that somebody has is Ineed to take this, otherwise I'm
gonna die in agony.
I don't think that's thedecision where they're like,
okay, I'm gonna take thisbecause I'm afraid I'm gonna die
(13:05):
in agony.
I feel like more I it's just myopinion.
I just feel like that it wouldbe a little bit more like this
makes me feel good.
I'm not thinking about theseother consequences of not taking
it.
I'm not thinking of these otherthings.
It's just I know what makes mefeel good, and I'm driven to do
those things, and that's what'smaking me happy.
So I I I can understand whatyou're saying.
(13:26):
I I just think the reasonpeople struggle with addictions
is because it's always makingthem feel good, and they're not
they're not really thinkingabout those those consequences.
Charles (13:35):
Yeah, see, my my experience of dealing with
people who are in activeaddiction is not that they're
not doing it because it's fun.
They're doing it because theyfeel like they have to.
Okay.
Like there's a huge or elsehanging out over their head that
they're trying to, you know,and we've talked about, you
know, running toward pleasure,running away from pain.
Yeah.
Every addict I've known, andand when I've been in the middle
(13:59):
of addictive behavior myself,it's never been about, oh, I'm
doing this because it's the bestlife.
I'm doing this.
Dan (14:06):
Well, right.
So I'm not saying they'rethey're they're thinking this is
they're making an amazing life.
Don't get me wrong.
I'm not saying that they'rethinking it's but I think you
know it's that quick dopaminefix in the moment, it's gonna
make me feel good.
I don't think they have any Idon't think they're deluding
themselves into thinking this isan amazing life.
Charles (14:22):
Right.
But yeah, I and I would say I Ithink I think most of us would
say that I'm continuing to useeven though it's ruining my
life, because I'm just trying toget back up to baseline, where
my my time that I stop using isso low that I've got to cut that
(14:43):
even when I want to stop, Icome back to using just to feel
normal again.
Dan (14:46):
Okay, okay.
Charles (14:47):
Yeah, God, that is that is a that is a rough ride to be
on where you're like, you know,I have whether it's alcohol,
drugs, people, relationships,whatever it is, like I have to
continue using this just so thatI can feel normal again.
Yeah.
And again, I feel like ErrolFlynn with his 3,000 ladies,
man.
I mean, when you're dedicatingso much of your time and your
(15:09):
effort in a day to sleeping withnew women, I I again, you know,
maybe when you're in the doubledigits or the triple digits, it
still feels amazing.
But when you're in thequadruple digits, that's where
you draw the line and just saythey don't Four Zeros?
I don't I don't see how I Idon't see how it could be good.
Yeah.
(15:29):
And and how and how it couldfeel good, where you're like,
you know, yes, there are thereare other connections or other
relationships or other goals orother dreams I have, but I have
to maintain, I have to keepputting those on the back burner
because I got to get my numberhigher and higher.
And no matter what it is, Imean, even if it's sales, like I
(15:50):
can't imagine a life like thatwhere it's like not feeling like
you're on a treadmill that youdon't have the controls to.
Like you just have to keeprunning, running, running, and
you can't turn it off, nobodyelse is gonna turn it off for
you.
You're just compelled to keeprunning, or or pushing, you
know, rolling the boulder up thehill, whatever it is.
Like it just yeah, I know onthe surface, you know, when you
(16:11):
hear about a Wilt Chamberlainand Errol Flynn, uh Russell
Brand, whoever's you know, gotthese huge body counts, it's
like, oh, that what an amazinglife that must be like to have
that kind of sexual variety.
And it's like, ooh, I I don'tknow, man.
I think it I think it doesn'tfeel that way.
But you know, like like wetalked about last time, about
(16:33):
the quality of your life isdefined by the quality of your
relationships.
I can't imagine that is a lifethat feels high quality.
Not the quantity of yourrelationships.
Yes, that's not what EstherPerel said.
Dan (16:44):
Well, that would be Yeah, it's so hard with her French
accent.
Charles (16:47):
Real power is not how much you can dominate other
people, it's about being able tocontrol yourself and influence
your environment.
And I would say influence yourenvironment in positive ways,
but I suppose power is neitherpositive or negative.
It's simply it simply is.
But um I I would say that in amy position would be that in a
(17:11):
healthy society, the mostpowerful people are the people
who have the most power overthemselves, but we don't live in
that society.
No we live in a society wheresome very powerful people
seemingly have no control overthemselves whatsoever, and
that's kinda that's roughbecause that trickles down or
rolls downhill, as as you mightsay.
(17:33):
Yeah.
Dan (17:34):
And um But that's the thing, is just because you have
power doesn't mean you haverespect.
Charles (17:41):
Yeah, or I mean you could there there are some
people that you could look atand say, well, he's powerful and
he's respected by a lot ofpeople, if not all people.
Um but he's still I mean, I Ithink of particular political
leaders.
Yeah.
And I'm like I do too.
Dan (17:59):
Yeah.
Charles (18:00):
I would not trade he he he could be the most powerful
man in the world, he could beone of the richest people in the
world.
I would not trade my life withhis tomorrow for anything.
I did like that uh they spent afair amount of time on
confidence in body language,which I appreciated.
And uh I I felt like Green,he's got confidence dead right,
which is confidence can't reallybe fake, not reliably and not
(18:23):
for a long time, because youonly feel confident when you
feel competent, which is youknow something you and I have
been saying on the show for manyyears now.
Today's our fourth hundred our200th episode, by the way.
Oh, congratulations to you aswell.
Thank you.
We've uh we've been at it for awhile.
Um, and I was thinking aboutthis, you know, if if I I've
never participated in any kindof a challenge where it's like,
(18:45):
hey guys, let's go out to thebars and clubs and everybody
should try to get 10 phonenumbers tonight.
Like, pfft, I'm not doing that.
Screw you.
Dan (18:52):
Yeah.
Charles (18:52):
But if I were to do that, I would not be good at it
because I wouldn't feelconfident at it.
Dan (18:58):
Because you haven't practiced that.
Charles (19:00):
Correct.
Yeah.
But when I think about thethings that I am good at and
that I I have practiced at, um,I like public speaking, I like
stand-up comedy, I like sittingin a in a room explaining to
people why the software thatthey spend all this money on
isn't gonna do the thing thatthey want it to do and why they
(19:21):
shouldn't want it to do that,they should want it to do this
instead.
When I'm in those scenarios, Ifeel very confident and I'm
probably oh, uh when I'm atgeneral knowledge, trivia, where
I feel like, okay, if I'm ifI'm alone playing against teams
of people, I'm gonna finish inthe money in the top three.
If I'm with a group of friendswith a couple other smart
(19:41):
cookies, then I'm going to winthis thing.
I'm gonna get first place.
It's just it's just a given.
And I would wager that Iprobably come across as my most
attractive when I'm in thosescenarios because I feel
confident, like, yeah, hey, I'mhere because I belong here and
I'm gonna, I'm gonna excel atthis.
Dan (19:58):
Yeah.
I mean, it it speaks to theprevious video that he talked
about where uh uh Steven wastalking about him and his
girlfriend, and he was reallyattracted to his girlfriend when
he's he saw her in her element.
Exactly when she was teachingthe breathwork classes.
And that is exactly what you'retalking about here in terms of
your confidence.
You are, you you know whatyou're doing, you're competent,
you've done it many times.
(20:20):
And yeah, that really it doesspeak to what Green is talking
about.
And they also made a point toget out and do things so that
you get that competence.
Charles (20:30):
Yes, absolutely.
And that's when when we talkabout relationship or dating
advice, particularly for youngmen on this podcast, the thing I
always say is find something,whatever it is, that you give a
shit enough about to do it oftenenough and intensely enough
that you get really good at it.
And then once you have thatthing in your life that you care
(20:52):
about enough to get really goodat it, then while you are in
your element doing that thing,people will be drawn to you.
So the only challenge is try tomake it something that not only
other dudes just like you areinto.
Because if you choose somethingthat only dudes just like you
are into, you know, unlessyou're attracted to other dudes
(21:13):
just like you, you're not you'renot going to be able to
translate that into a a healthydating life or exciting dating
life.
Dan (21:19):
What what you can do though is practice taking those
feelings of confidence when youare doing those things, whether
it's talking about quantummechanics or or you know,
pickleball, whatever that is.
Right.
And and try to bring some ofthose feelings to those new
situations that you're trying tobecome competent at.
(21:39):
And that will kind of help youget over that hump of resistance
to going out and doing andtrying those new things.
And I've done that in the pastand it's it's worked out pretty
well.
The other thing that'sinteresting about this section
was he was talking about how wecan kind of fake our body
language for confidence, but wecan't fake our voices.
And that's nothing I I've neverheard that before.
(22:00):
He said even trained actors,when they're nervous, tend to
speak a little bit more quickly,they shake their voice a little
bit.
That's something that can't befake, whereas body language can
be a little bit more.
Charles (22:11):
Yeah, you can learn the right body language, but yeah,
that's true.
Dan (22:15):
I never heard that before.
You, I mean, you do a lot ofvoice work.
Uh have you have you heardanything of that before?
Or is it just more like uh thisis the way you want to come
across and you've been trainedto be clear and slow and
confident and the thing I wouldsay is that you you know, like
any, I mean, auditions areessentially interviews, and
(22:35):
interviews are essentiallyauditions.
Charles (22:37):
And if you walk into an interview with the attitude of
this this job or even a date,this is my last hope.
If this doesn't work out forme, I'm done.
There's no way to hide that.
It's gonna come through yourbody language, your voice, just
the vibe you give off, all theyou know, micro expressions.
If if you're walking into asituation with the feeling of
(22:58):
this could be my last chance, ifthis doesn't work out for me,
I'm done.
Yeah, then you're going to putoff a uh this is a this is a
human in crisis, not a human inleadership vibe that's gonna
turn people off and make thempick somebody else over you.
And so, and the only way thatyou can walk into those rooms
for auditions or dates orinterviews, feeling confidence,
(23:20):
feeling real confidence is bybelieving, hey, I I'd like this,
but if it doesn't work out,I'll be okay and I'll I'll
figure out something else.
Um, somebody gave me thisopportunity, I'll get another
opportunity.
Dan (23:31):
Yeah, and I think the other piece of this is realizing
that's closer for the most part,99% of the time, to what
reality is, is you will be okay.
This isn't your last shot.
And where I feel a lot of usjust end up blowing it and
sabotaging ourselves is when weare imagining situations that
(23:53):
are further from reality thanthey actually are.
Charles (23:56):
Yeah.
I mean, if you walk if you walkinto a job interview and your
nervous system is telling youyou're a the squid game, then
yeah, you're going to act likesomebody who's in the squid
game, not somebody who's justinterested in finding out if
this might be a good match foryou.
If this might be a place whereyou can, you know, blossom
professionally.
Right.
And that's the vibe that hiringmanagers want.
(24:18):
They want you coming in theresaying, like, hmm, I wonder if
this would be a good match, ifwe'd be able to work well
together, if I'd be the kind ofemployee they're looking for, if
they'd be the kind of boss thatI'm looking for.
But yeah, if if your nervoussystem is telling you this is
life or death, then you're gonnaact like you're in a life or
death situation.
And the other people who are alittle closer to reality who
realize this isn't life ordeath, they're gonna be put off
(24:40):
by you.
And it's gonna be like, oh,what's it?
Dan (24:41):
I can't trust right.
I can't trust.
Yeah, I can't I can't put mytrust in them that they're gonna
be on the same page with mewhen they can't even recognize
reality for reality.
Charles (24:49):
Yeah.
You know, so that's yeah, andsame with a date when you're
when you're meeting, you know,that gal for the first time for
a coffee or a drink that you meton some dating app, if you walk
into it with the vibe of, oh mygosh, she's so pretty, I'll
never have another chance totalk to a pretty girl like this,
then you're not gonna be fun tobe around and you're not gonna
inspire the feelings in her thatshe's hoping to experience when
(25:12):
she agrees to go out on a datewith you.
Dan (25:13):
Yeah.
Charles (25:14):
I mean, when a girl says yes to going on, she
expects she wants to go have agood time.
And if she's sitting next to aball of neuroticism, she's not
gonna be able to feel goodbecause she it's gonna be clear
that you're not feeling good.
Dan (25:26):
Mm-hmm.
Charles (25:27):
So, unless you're both unhealthy in the same way, and
then maybe she'll enjoy that,but you're not gonna have a
great relationship.
So, um yeah, I liked what hehad to say about that.
Uh, he gets a little bit intoyou know the the value in
recognizing your dark side andseeing the things in you that uh
may not be the most healthy,like narcissism, envy,
(25:50):
aggression, irrationality.
And he makes a good case tosay, listen, if you and this is
something we were talking theother night about uh some of the
patterns of codependent people,and one of the one of the ways
that codependent people try tocontrol the world and the people
around them is by seeingthemselves as only virtuous.
Like I only have goodqualities, I have no bad
(26:12):
qualities, and that gives yousort of sort of gives you the
moral authority that it takes tosay, okay, all these other
people that I, you know, thathave all their problems that I
love or live with or associatewith, they need me to swoop it
and take care of them becausethey can't take care of
themselves.
So there is uh sort of ahaughtiness to codependence that
(26:34):
you don't usually associatewith it.
When you hear aboutcodependence, yeah, it's oh,
it's the poor wife living withthe drug abusive husband.
Right.
But there is a portion of thatof I have to take care of him.
He can't take care of himself,so I have to sweep it and take
care of him for him.
Dan (26:46):
And I think you mentioned it, it is a form of narcissism.
Yeah.
And and he mentions it in thevideo too, was that everybody
has a little bit of narcissismin them.
Charles (26:54):
Yes.
Dan (26:55):
And where a lot of us run into issues is when you don't
recognize that we have that.
Exactly.
Charles (27:00):
When you deny those darker aspects of yourself,
yeah, yeah.
Dan (27:03):
And uh that was enlightening for me because he
went into the way he framed it,yeah, it made sense to me, but
I'd never heard it that waybefore.
And I'm like, oh, I sort oflook at myself, I'm a little bit
like, okay, I can see where itis here and where it is there
and stuff.
And I I felt I felt a littlebit better being aware of it
now.
Charles (27:19):
Yeah, I I did I did too.
And and I did like the way thathe said where you know, when
when you're a kid and you don'tget your need met in the moment,
um then that sort of trainsyou.
And so then you take that intoadulthood.
And when you're an adult andyou don't get a need met from,
you know, a boss, a partner, ora friend, whatever, the way it's
(27:42):
supposed to work is you're ayou're supposed to be able to
retreat into yourself a littlebit and say, okay, well, they
didn't meet my needs, but I havethe ability to meet my own
needs.
It's the self-soothing type ofsituation, okay.
Where the clinical narcissist,the person with n narcissistic
personality disorder, there isnothing inside for them to
retreat into to soothethemselves.
There's just nothing therebecause their parents didn't
(28:04):
fill that tank for them whenthey were very little, sometimes
like less than a year old.
They were neglected, abandoned,not treated that way.
And so that internal tank ofbeing able to soothe yourself
and meet your own needs, it justisn't there.
So what do they do?
Well, they decide, okay, howcan I lash out in anger,
manipulation, gaslighting, uh,stonewalling?
(28:28):
What are the tools that I I gotno tools inside.
So what are the tools I can useto get what I need from the
people around me outside in?
And uh, yeah, that was it wasinteresting how he how he framed
that.
But it is better for us to say,okay, no, I I do have a
tendency where I can getselfish, I can get aggressive
when when people refuse to meetmy needs.
(28:50):
I I don't go about meeting myown needs in the perfect, most
healthy way.
So what are the darkertendencies that I might have so
I can be on the lookout for themand I can kind of keep them in
check and not just, you know,hand steering wheel to him and
say, all right, bad Charles bebad Charles.
He's gonna get what he needsfrom people no matter what.
Dan (29:12):
Did he touch on ways to remedy that as an adult?
And I'm because I'm goingthrough my mind now thinking
about it, and I don't think hedid, but I thought though, he
did touch on trying to beproductive and putting yourself
out there so you can buildcompetence in a lot of areas,
(29:32):
which will bring you in someconfidence.
But um now that I'm thinkingabout it, that might not be
enough in those situations to bereally confident in other areas
to provide value.
So you can kind of rely backon, oh, hey, I am uh, you know,
a a good person.
I've got val inherent value.
(29:54):
But now that I'm thinking aboutit, it's just like, well, then
but your value is kind of tiedto doing these things, and
that's I don't know if that'sreally the same thing.
What are your thoughts aboutthat?
Charles (30:02):
Yeah, I think uh as far as I know, the the only cure
that I have seen for um any anyissues that are um sort of
presenting themselves as aconsequence of a lack of
self-esteem is you've got ityou've got to do hard things for
(30:23):
yourself.
Okay, you can teach yourselfthe lesson that you're worth
doing hard things for.
And whether that is gettinginto therapy, getting into a
recovery group, getting yourfitness under control, getting
your diet under control, gettingyour career under control,
you've got to come up with aplan to do some of those things
that are difficult.
Yeah.
So that when you see yourselfdoing your doing those things
(30:46):
for yourself, you'll get themessage, whether you want to or
not, of I'm worth doingdifficult things for.
Yeah.
Okay.
And that's the only way to doit from inside.
Okay.
Because what uh the uh theopposite that happens when you
decide to just, you know, livewith your codependence and you
make other people the source foryour self-esteem, uh, them
(31:07):
esteem as I call it.
Interesting.
It's going to be, well, thisother person is willing to
sacrifice and do all thesethings for me.
Instead of say, oh, well, thatmust mean I'm a worthy person.
Instead of that, what you dois, no, they there must be
something wrong with them.
And they're willing to investall this time and effort in me,
then they've got a problem.
(31:28):
I'm I'm still worthless, andI'm not going to be convinced
that I'm not worthless.
So therefore, I gotta take themdown off their pedestal and
decide if they're willing tosacrifice for me, if they're
willing to invest in me, theremust be something wrong with
them.
Oh that's rough.
Yeah.
And and that's that is the theroute that most people
struggling with codependencetake.
It is I'm gonna find somebodyelse to make me feel valuable.
(31:50):
Yeah.
And then when you find them andthey are willing to invest in
you to make you feel valuable,your reaction to that is there
must be something wrong withthem.
Because there is no shortcutfor the doing hard things for
yourself version of it, whichseems to be the only thing that
works.
So yeah, it's it is it is quitethe it's quite the unpleasant
carousel to find yourself stuckon.
(32:10):
Oh man.
Hell.
Um, all right.
He does talk about um masks,roles, and authenticity.
And you know, there there issomething to be said for we are
all we all are going to play arole, and we all are going to at
least at some level act the waywe think we need to act in
(32:32):
situations.
And that's not necessarily abad thing.
Yeah.
I mean, you're gonna show upfor your job and act like what
you think a good enough employeeto not get fired has to act
like, at the very least.
Now, ideally, you're in a jobthat you feel passionate about,
and what you produce in that jobis something you can feel good
about, and and that can be itsown reward, as well as the money
(32:52):
that they pay you.
But sometimes, you know, when,especially when you're younger
and you're just having to do thejobs you have to do because you
have to do them, it's gonna bea little bit of, okay, I I need
to show up and act like somebodywho cares about this job more
than they actually do, becausethat's what's expected of me,
and I need this job.
And that's okay.
I don't think that's somethingthat you need to feel unethical
(33:13):
or guilty over.
Dan (33:15):
Yeah, he made a great point that it was a little bit more
common to have that externalpublic-facing role when you're
outside the house and when youcome home to your family, you
have a different type of rolethat you play.
Yeah.
And I agree with them in termsof we as a society are trying to
kind of be that same person athome and in the public, and just
(33:38):
feeling like, hey, I need to bemyself at all times, and are
less willing to take on adifferent type of role or
identity at work, at church, athome, whatever that might be,
and be unokay with it.
Like I feel like we've gottento the point of where we're
like, no, we we need to beourselves all the time.
And then we end up strugglingbecause those it's we're trying
(34:03):
to, you know, fit a square peginto a round hole sometimes,
right?
You can't and and or you feellike you're there's something
wrong with either the job orwith yourself because you're
trying to maintain this thissame self throughout all of
these different situations, andthat might not suit you the
best, and might not suit thatsituation the best either.
(34:26):
And I like that he said it'sokay to have those different
types of identity, and there'snothing there's nothing wrong
with it's uh it's I mean to me,you know, it is a little tough
to swallow at the same timebecause it's like, all right,
are you faking it?
And and but are you reallyhurting anybody if you are
faking that you enjoy that jobto get that job and fulfill
(34:48):
those obligations?
I I you know, I I don't thinkso.
Charles (34:52):
Yeah, I I agree.
I think that uh it's justexpected that as humans we have
to wear different hats and thosehats are going to look
different from each other.
I think that's okay.
Um the key is to just maintainhonesty while you do it and not
(35:12):
not put out a fake identity,just be like, hey, listen, when
I when I show up to work, I'msomebody who does the job that's
expected of them, right?
And I'm gonna do it to the bestof my ability, and I'm not
gonna grumble about it.
And you'll probably come acrosslooking like a pretty good
employee if if you do that.
Yeah.
Um the part where you actuallyenjoy it and you're happy about
it and fulfilled by it, thatusually happens later in your
(35:34):
career.
And sometimes, you know, inmany careers, it kind of peaks
when you're at a certain age,and then after that, you're kind
of just maybe not getting asmuch out of it anymore, but you
still find yourself doing it.
And that's why a lot of people,when they get to their 40s or
50s, decide, I think it's readyto do something I'm ready to do
something new, try somethingelse.
Dan (35:54):
Yeah.
I actually was listening toElizabeth Gilbert's Big Magic.
Uh, once what do you think?
Really good.
It's good.
Really good.
And it's not as woo-woo as youwere making it, or or other
people have made it sound to me.
Yeah.
Not at all.
Not at all.
And a lot of really like goodpractical advice.
And one of them was you can doyour creative love and not
(36:17):
necessarily make that your job.
Like you can do that on theside, and you don't have to make
that your career that you makemoney from.
And she said a lot of peoplethat she knew that made that
creative idea generate money,required to generate money to
replace their job, ruin thatcreativity and ruin that
experience in that because ofall the pressure of having to
(36:40):
make money.
And so now you start limitingthings and changing things
instead of just being open toenjoying that creative pursuit.
So that was enlightening for mewith you know, all the things
that I've been sure, you know,struggling with whatever.
And it's just like, okay, yeah,you can have something that
makes money, and then you canhave something that that
fulfills you.
And it kind of goes to whatwe've been talking about with
(37:01):
having a partner, too, is youcan have multiple people in your
life, or ideally, you havemultiple people in your life who
fulfill different needs, andyou don't put all of those
responsibilities on your yoursignificant other.
Yeah.
Which which has has ruinedrelationships for me in the
past.
Charles (37:17):
Yeah.
And uh speaking ofrelationships, I do want to just
touch briefly on what he saidabout dating.
And uh, I wasn't completelyclear on on his message.
I I did feel like he talked alittle bit about um investing in
dating.
And I think one of the exampleswas, you know, don't show up to
a date with a coupon trying topay a little bit of money at the
restaurant.
(37:37):
Oh my gosh.
But uh yeah, when I waslistened to it, I thought, okay,
this could be misinterpretedas, you know, don't be a cheap
date, be be willing to spendmoney on your dates, but it
really is you don't have tospend much money to have a good
date with somebody, whether it'sa first date or an ongoing date
with your partner.
You just have to invest inmaking it an experience that is
(38:01):
going to be worth remembering.
And and I had the thought onthe driveover today.
We went out to uh dinner onlast Friday, went to that sushi
place.
That was great.
Um, what was it, sushisomething?
What was it?
Sushi Saint.
Dan (38:14):
Yes.
Charles (38:14):
Memory.
It was in an interesting area,and the presentation was very
interesting.
I I liked it.
I thought it was a goodrestaurant.
And I did the whole dinner withmy phone in the car.
Which uh thank you.
Thank you for reminding meabout it.
Yeah.
I sat down with my phone.
I forgot that.
Dan (38:29):
It didn't look like you struggled at all.
Charles (38:31):
I didn't.
Yeah.
No, it wasn't.
I mean, you're welcome.
Dan (38:33):
I was just at entertaining.
Charles (38:34):
You were great, you were great company.
And our waitress was nice too.
But uh yeah, most I was mostlytalking to you, not her.
The um were you the thing thatoccurred to me though was you
know, I've I've taken partnerson at some pretty fancy dates to
some pretty fancy places, andif I were to pick up the phone
(38:59):
and call all of them to do asurvey Don't worry, ladies, if
you're listening, I'm not goingto.
If I were to, I would bet everysingle one of them.
If it was a choice of I'm goingto make some sandwiches and
we're going to put a blanketdown and just eat some dinner at
a park, and I'm going to leavemy phone in the car, or I'm
(39:22):
going to take you to Cadence orVictorian Albert's.
But every time I get anotification, I'm going to pull
my phone out of my pocket andsee if it's something important.
I am quite sure that everysingle one of them would say, I
would rather have the picnic inthe park with your phone in the
car than the fancy meal at thefancy restaurant where every
time your phone vibrates, you'repopping it out to see what it's
(39:44):
about.
Dan (39:44):
Mm-hmm.
Charles (39:44):
Yeah.
And it is a little embarrassingto come to that conclusion at
47 years old.
It's it's frankly ridiculousthat I'm even having to struggle
with that at this age.
At least it feels that way.
But, you know, I mean, part ofwhat I I learned from that uh um
that book, All the Way of theRiver, by Elizabeth Gilbert was
(40:06):
her ability to look at her lifeand the life of her partner and
be able to look back and say,listen, we we behaved exactly
the way that we had to behavebased on the tools we had and
the circumstances we were in.
And so there's no use ingetting mad at old you or the
old version of your partnerbecause everybody is just doing
their best with what they haveavailable to them.
(40:27):
And if you wound back the clockof the universe where every
neuron in your brain and everyatom was back in the same place,
you couldn't have done anythingdifferent.
Yeah.
You would have had everythingwould have gone the same way
that it went because that's theway that it had to go.
Yeah.
And the grace that she'swilling to give, willing and
able to give herself and her nowdeceased partner to be able to
(40:48):
look back and say, look, we wedid what we could do based on
just like the thing aboutknowledge and hindsight is you
don't get to apply today'sknowledge to what happened 20
years ago.
It just doesn't work that way.
Correct.
Yeah, you only have today'sknowledge today because of the
stuff you went through 20 yearsago.
Dan (41:03):
So what I've recently discovered is you can still use
those that that those thoughtsand those feelings of upset or
being disappointed with yourpast self to impact your future.
Charles (41:14):
To impact your present and your future.
Right.
Dan (41:16):
To help you get over that hump of discomfort from leaving
the phone in the car.
Charles (41:20):
Right.
I'm not going to, yeah.
I'm I am not I am never goingto spend another meal with
somebody I care about distractedby what's going on on Twitter
or Instagram or Facebook orCNN.com or any of that stuff.
It's just too, you know, I amthere there are fewer years
ahead than there are behind atthis point.
And spending dates or dinnerswith friends with glued to my
(41:46):
phone, I I don't have I don'thave enough time left to do
that.
Yeah.
So that's great.
What's the thing about it too?
Please remind me.
Yeah.
Because I'm going to do my bestto remember to leave it in the
car.
I may even put a post-it in mycar that says Okay.
Yep.
If you're about to see, ifyou're going to see somebody you
care about, leave the phonehere.
Yeah.
So that I remember to do it.
But yeah, definitely remind me.
You and I have a uh reservationin a couple weeks that I'm
(42:08):
really excited about, and uh Iam not going to ruin it by
bringing my phone too.
Dan (42:13):
I'll bring an extra one for you at the table.
Charles (42:16):
Just bring a pacifier that's been painted to look like
an iPhone, and I'll just put itinto my mouth and suck on it
whenever I feel like I need touh get my phone out of my
pocket.
All right, thanks very much,Dan.
We'll do another one of thesenext week, and hopefully it'll
be one we both find a little bitmore compelling.
Sounds good.
All right, bye.
That's gonna do it for thisepisode of the Mindfully
Masculine Podcast.
If this conversation sparkssomething for you, share the
episode with a friend who wouldappreciate it.
(42:37):
New episodes drop just aboutevery single week, so make sure
you're following MindfullyMasculine wherever you get your
podcasts.
As always, you can find fullaudio and video episodes at
mindfullymasculine.com.
Thanks for listening to thewhole episode.
We appreciate it, and we'll beback next time.
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