July 21, 2025 • 32 mins
In this episode, we break down Chapters 5 and 6 of The Let Them Theory—and the exhausting pressure to manage what other people think. From family dynamics to workplace image, we dig into codependence, covert contracts, people-pleasing, and the false belief that being lovable means being perfect.
We talk resentment, approval addiction, emotional manipulation disguised as virtue, and why trying to control others’ perceptions will wreck your relationships—and your sanity.
Also in this episode: monkey brains, emotional math, romantic breakups, and what happens when you stop performing and start showing up as yourself.
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Episode Transcript
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Dan (00:00):
And something that resonated with me was she's like
how many times can you controlyour own thoughts?
A lot of times you've got likerandom thoughts that pop in your
head out of nowhere that aren'tgood.
So for you to expect thateverybody's going to like you
all the time or never havenegative thoughts about you,
that's ludicrous.
You can't even control your ownthoughts.
Charles (00:18):
You can try and control somebody else's.
Welcome back to the MindfullyMasculine Podcast.
This is Charles All right Today.
Welcome back to the MindfullyMasculine Podcast.
This is Charles Alright.
Today, dan and I are diving intochapters 5 and 6 of the Let
them Theory by Mel Robbins.
These chapters ask a simple butbrutal question what if people
are going to judge you no matterwhat you do?
What if loving you and beingannoyed by you aren't mutually
(00:39):
exclusive?
We get into the tribal roots ofpeople-pleasing, the trap of
codependent control and theweird relief that comes when you
finally stop trying to manageeveryone's opinion of you.
Let's get into it.
And some good stuff in here,some stuff that I do.
I am struck by her what feelsto me to be her occasional tone
deafness when it comes talkingabout this theory and how people
(01:02):
work in her own life and thingslike that, where I mean, let's
talk about the need for approvalthat we all experience when it
comes to we choose our actionsbased on, in large part, what
other people will think of us.
Have you ever seen the movie myDinner with Andre?
No, neither have I, but I saw aclip about it this week on
(01:27):
Instagram, facebook, one of theplatforms where this guy was
talking about it and apparentlyit's a fairly it's an old movie,
I think it's like 40 years oldbut and it mainly takes place in
a restaurant where these twoguys who are maybe casual
friends or acquaintances they Ithink one of them just like
(01:48):
returned from, just like kind ofdisappearing, going off on like
a trip or something, and hecomes back and it's basically
them just having a conversationat dinner.
Okay, and the one guy I thinkit's andre.
His position is I basicallywent off and explored the world
all on my own and learned aboutdifferent people, different
(02:09):
cultures.
And I come back to modern lifehere and I think it was New York
City, and it occurs to me thatall anybody ever does is spend
their time satisfying socialconventions, like all we do are
the things that society expectsus to do, where you know these
people outside of modern societyand more these more remote
(02:31):
countries and villages that Ivisited, like they have a more
meaningful life because they'renot so concerned about image and
reputation and things.
And again, this is all based ona clip I saw about the movie.
Yeah, guys often commentary onit.
The other character is like no,the choices we make are just as
meaningful.
We just have a different kindof social network than they do.
(02:55):
And so when she gets into thischapter about the importance of
doing what you want to do andnot being so concerned with
other, what other people aregoing to think about you?
It's like and she evenacknowledges that's easy to say
it you want to do and not beingso concerned with other, what
other people are going to thinkabout you?
It's like and she evenacknowledges that's easy to say
it's hard to do, right, it'shard to do because if the tribe
doesn't accept you, you'll die.
Dan (03:16):
Yeah.
Charles (03:16):
And that's the hardware that we're all still running
off of.
So it's like, yes, we shouldall, we should all sort of
inject a little bit more of thatI'm going to do what's right
for me attitude into the choiceswe make.
But we also need to keep inmind we are social primates that
are running on that kind ofhardware that says if the group
(03:38):
isn't actively invested in yourwellbeing, then you're going to
die alone.
Dan (03:44):
Yeah, in your wellbeing, then you're going to die alone.
Yeah, I think my takeaway wasthat and if you remember, in the
book she talks about a lot oftimes when she's talking to
somebody and they're scared todo something.
She'll ask them questions likewhy are you scared to do this?
Well, I'm scared of what myfriends will think.
And then she starts to kind ofbring it back and ask the hard
(04:09):
not hard questions, but realityquestions.
Well, which friends do youthink are going to judge you?
Or I'm going to look stupid.
And she's like look stupid towho, right?
And so a lot of these are justher asking the next level
question of these assumptionsthat we all tend to make on a
surface level, because we havethat built in genetic
predisposition predisposition toworry about what the tribe is
(04:31):
going to think for our ownsurvival.
So I my takeaway from thischapter was just a lot of how
we're operating is onassumptions and worries that are
not based in reality.
Yes, that's true.
Yeah and yes, that's a, whereaslike these he's like remote,
like in that dinner from Andre.
You're talking about dinnerwith Andre.
The people that he was talkingabout might be.
(04:53):
It might be more meaningfulbecause the feedback that you're
able to get in a smaller groupis reality right and they're.
Charles (05:03):
They're close.
They're closer to theirconsequences than we are.
Dan (05:06):
That too.
So in that case, yeah, it'smore meaningful because it's
more based in reality, whereas alot of the way we're operating
now isn't as meaningful becauseit's not really based in reality
.
It's based on.
Charles (05:19):
That's true.
I mean, yes, we do need to.
We do need to make the kinds ofchoices that get a certain
level of approval from thepeople in our lives, so that
they stay in our lives and wecan continue to rely on their
support.
The problem comes in when youstart making decisions based on
(05:40):
what you think people willapprove or disapprove of, when
it's not even accurate.
Dan (05:43):
Yeah.
Charles (05:44):
And that's the thing, that that's the takeaway I'm
trying to focus on from thesechapters, where what she's
saying is don't say to yourselfI'm just not going to care what
people think anymore.
It's don't tell yourselfinaccurate stories about what
people are going to think or notthink.
Dan (05:59):
Yeah, I appreciated that because she was like of course
we're going to care what peoplethink, right.
And we should Absolutely Ahundred percent, but it's just
how much power or weight are wegiving them?
I the other thing that I likedwhen she said just assume people
are going to have negativethoughts about you.
Charles (06:17):
I like that too, yeah.
Dan (06:18):
And she said a lot of times , perfect example, like her big
hairy dog jumps on her lap andshe gets annoyed and says he
needs to basically controlhimself and be better behaved,
but doesn't take away from thelove that she has for the dog.
And what helped me also waswhen she said two things can be
true at the same time.
You can be really annoyed bysomebody in your family or
(06:41):
friend group or whatever, butstill love them and that doesn't
take away from the love.
So just assume that people aregoing to have negative thoughts
about you when you are doinganything that perhaps makes you
feel a little bit nervous byputting yourself out in public,
and I absolutely need to takethat advice as well.
Charles (07:00):
Yeah, I think one of the interesting points that was
made in chapter five is thatsacrificing what you want in
order to please other people isnot a sign of virtue.
Like sometimes I have to remindmyself that people like adults
(07:29):
have members of their family oforigin in their lives in a way
where they're like talking orcatching up or conversing on
like a daily basis, and so I'vehad to make do with finding my
own family in other ways.
But yeah, like it's, it must betough where it's like I love
you and I want to be around you,but you're making it hard.
It's like if it's only theyou're making it hard, the easy
(07:51):
decision.
Dan (07:51):
Yeah, fix that Right.
Charles (07:53):
No problem yeah.
Dan (07:54):
Yeah, yeah.
Charles (07:55):
So I do understand some level of people pleasing and
saying yes to things that youdon't want to say yes to.
Dan (08:02):
I just don't understand it on that level with mommy, daddy,
grandma, grandpa I mean youcould basically, I think you
swap out a friendship you'vebuilt for years, right when
there's been years of valuebetween the two of you, where
you're just like oh, I'm notgoing to throw this away because
this certainly went right, socertainly had that.
Charles (08:21):
I've had it in romantic relationships as well, where
it's like, okay, this is notgoing well, but I don't want to,
I don't want to 86 it, becausethere's a lot of good stuff here
too.
I get that, yeah, yeah, I.
Just when people tell me theirstory about how hard it is to
relate to their mom and dad oraunts or uncles or grandmas or
grandpas, I'm like, yeah, what,it's not hard, just hang out
when you want to and when youdon't, you don't Right, like
(08:44):
what's the problem?
Yeah, it seems cut and dry.
Dan (08:46):
Yeah, and that's where she tries to get you to almost, I
feel, with the letter.
Almost.
Yeah, it's kind of like a letgo of that obligation and
attachment that you have.
Charles (08:56):
Yeah, On some level I've been doing that with
certain people in my life for along time, before I ever heard
of this book.
Right, yeah, it's just like.
Yeah, at some point you do themath and I think all of us who
have initiated breakups ordivorces or just had to give up
on friendships maybe a lot ofpeople don't have my experience
where you've had to do it withyour family of origin but most
(09:18):
of us have gotten to the pointwhere we're like, okay, look,
I've had to do the math on thisrelationship equation and it's
been a negative number for solong.
Dan (09:28):
It's time to just say enough's enough.
And I think it's so much easierto do that based on the amount
of value that you've gotten outof that relationship.
So if you've been getting atremendous amount of value, I
feel you might have a tremendousamount of guilt when you try to
lay down the law with yourselfand force your own boundaries.
But if you haven't been gettingmuch out of it, it's kind of
like a well, it's like I'm not.
(09:49):
I'm also, and I think it kindof shows itself in the form of
feeling guilty about enforcingyour boundaries, because now
you're almost scared to losethat value.
If you do, you've got somethingto lose, you've got something
to risk by putting up those andenforcing those boundaries.
Charles (10:07):
Yeah.
Dan (10:07):
So but you know, when I've done that in my own for my own
family and friends and I've donea form of let me and just kind
of let them do what they want todo, it's more of a let them
kind of thing Right, and then atthat point the relationship
usually got better because itlike let me, let go of my
(10:27):
expectations and the stories andthe things I wanted those other
people to do or be or behavelike, and once I did that, like
it brought my stress level downand that show and she talks
about this I showed up ashappier and more open and
friendlier to those people andit definitely made things better
(10:51):
.
Charles (10:51):
Yeah, and I had to learn myself over a couple of
years of studying codependencyand how it made an invest in
myself that you know peoplepleasing and giving people what
you think they want.
It's a another mechanism ofcontrol and, in many cases,
manipulation, whereas it's likeyou don't think about it like
that.
Dan (11:09):
You're like oh, I'm the good person because I'm doing.
I'm doing what you want me todo.
I think she mentions that inone of these chapters where it's
just like no, you're actuallybeing very manipulative, yeah,
and that's something.
By trying to get them to likeyou, no matter what.
Charles (11:23):
Yeah, people who struggled codependency don't.
Really it's difficult to acceptthat realization and own it,
that just because you're willingto sacrifice for other people
and do the things that you thinkwill fill their needs, it's
like it's still in many cases away to just kind of craft this
life where you're theindisposable person that they
(11:45):
rely on and they get theirfulfillment on, because you're
always willing to do what youthink they need to have done for
them.
Dan (11:52):
And when you don't get that expectation back, you don't get
your expectation met of whatyou think you should be getting
back from doing all this, itturns to resentment on a dime.
Well, instantly, yeah.
Charles (12:05):
Like you with my, I had this unspoken expectation of
what your gratitude would looklike for this thing.
You didn't ask me to do it, youdidn't give it to me, so you're
a piece of shit.
Yeah, and it does.
It can turn into that sometimes.
Dan (12:18):
And the funny thing is I think a lot of us don't realize
that, yeah, sometimes it willturn into like a, like a
resentment, and it will be avery obvious like blow up.
But until that happens, it's aslow burn and it starts to eat
out in other ways of yourbehaving and your communication
and your language and yourstress level.
And yeah, you're, you'remessing yourself up, but you're
(12:46):
also messing up thatrelationship without it's like.
It's like boiling the frogright, like you're turning it up
slowly and you're just doingmore and more damage and not
even realizing what you're doingI think a lot of that.
I'm guilty of that for sure.
Charles (12:52):
Yeah, no, yeah, me too.
It wears on you because, yeah,you've.
I mean, it goes back to whatwe've been talking about for two
almost I guess, three years now, with with so many of the
issues that men struggle with.
It's these covert contracts,and this book is a lot,
especially when it comes torelating to other people.
It's yeah, you have thisexpectation.
(13:14):
If I do this, then people willtreat me this way, even though
you're not telling anybody that.
You're just working on thisassumption that if I do the
right things by the right people, then I'll have this easy,
comfortable life where everybodyloves me.
Yeah, and what's in?
Dan (13:31):
It's manipulative.
Yeah, you know what'sinteresting is humans, we've
evolved a lot based on the toolsthat we've created over the
millennia, and so in thoserespects, we've kind of
conditioned ourselves to say wedo X, this is what happens, the
Y happens.
Right, we use a tool and thisis the result we get, and I
(13:51):
think we're we end up applyingthat to our behaviors and our
communication with other people.
So we do, this is what shouldbe happening, this is what
should come out of it, right,and that is, we're not able to
control that.
And so now we're trying tocontrol the uncontrollable.
And something that resonatedwith me was she's like how many
times can you control your ownthoughts?
A lot of times you've got likerandom thoughts that pop in your
(14:14):
head out of nowhere that aren'tgood.
So for you to expect thateverybody's going to like you
all the time or never havenegative thoughts about you,
that's ludicrous.
You can't even control your ownthoughts.
You can try and controlsomebody else's.
So for me, I was able torelease my thoughts about it, or
my predispositions about this,when she's like hey, let them
(14:36):
have negative thoughts about you, Expect that they're going to
have negative thoughts about youRight, I was like huh, all
right.
Charles (14:42):
And that's hard because , especially if you lean on the
controlling, codependent side ofthings, where you know you're
codependentent but you also wantto control things and you have
those control patterns it's likeit's hard for me to accept deep
down in my core that someonecan occasionally think bad
(15:02):
things about me and still loveme and still want to stick
around yeah it's like no.
This experience has to be 100positive and perfect all the
time otherwise you're going toleave Love or hate Right.
Like one of the right.
Yeah, it's a simple way tothink about it.
I mean, if I mean, if you'reessentially a monkey, that when
you flip the switch up you getfood, and then when you slip it
on a down to zone, then, yeah,you're going to be conditioned
(15:23):
to think that way.
Dan (15:26):
Start a fire, you right, or ?
Charles (15:29):
yeah, it is.
We'll get you from point a topoint b.
Dan (15:31):
It's like tempting to look at people as tools sometimes
that's the model, that's thekind of the brain that we're
working with this chapter wasgood.
Charles (15:40):
Like I said, there were some things where it's just
hard to take these kinds ofthoughts and simplify them down
to the point where you can fitthem in a book and and that was
one of the things I thought of,like when she's talking about
how you do what you want to doand don't care, you know, what
other people think.
It's like okay, you say that,but even in the process of
(16:00):
writing and marketing this book,you're not doing that.
It's like you care very muchabout all these words that
you're reading to me in thisaudio book or putting down a
paper.
They're very curated, verycurated.
Sure, as a part of yourfunction to sell books, like you
, you want me to respond to youin a certain way so that I buy
your product, and you need me tobuy your product because you
(16:21):
want these ideas to be out thereand you want to be, if not
wealthy, certainly financiallyindependent.
So, yeah, I feel like shedoesn't caveat the complexity of
some of the things she talksabout quite enough to say, yeah,
we are all going to always beconvinced or concerned with what
other people think of us.
Dan (16:39):
Yeah, that's a deep Born to when we die.
Yeah, that's a lot of.
There's a lot of work just towork on that.
Like a lot of, yeah, but.
Charles (16:56):
Things that need to be done in order to get through
that or get over that type of ornot let it paralyze you, I
think for me, for me it's.
It ends up making meprocrastinate or paralyze, and I
don't let it.
And especially the mostimportant version of this, at
least to me feels like don't beparalyzed by your false ideas
about what people will think ofyou.
And that's the thing is see,it's not the gotta.
Remember, if you areobjectively concerned with, okay
, if I have a job that requiresa suit and I just don't feel
(17:19):
like wearing a suit into workone day, there could be some
very real consequences to thatdecision.
Like I, it's clear that when Ishow up on my job at wall street
, I'm supposed to wear a suitand tie.
I don't feel like it and I I'mnot going to do it to please
other people, so I'm just goingto walk in there in shorts and a
t-shirt.
I was like, okay, you can dothat if you want to do that, but
(17:39):
to think to yourself, well, I'dlike to wear shorts and a
t-shirt to work today, but I'mnot going to do that because of
what other people might think ofme.
Like, good you, you should inthat exact scenario.
Dan (17:56):
you should be concerned.
What other people will think ofyou?
And I think that's where thework begins, because then you
have to say is well, what willhappen?
What kinds of things willpeople think about?
And then what will happen?
You got to keep going step bystep.
So then what would happen?
Well, I might lose respectaround the office.
Okay, what does that mean?
Well, I might not be eligiblebehaving outside of norms.
(18:18):
Behaving outside of, radicallyoutside of norms with no good
reason for it.
Yeah, so there is and are thosethings important to you?
If they're not, then yeah, goahead and wear those shorts.
But yeah, I think what happensis under the cover, is where we
do that processing and thatthinking of those steps ahead,
and that's where we can kind ofgo wrong, because it's Because
it's we're now, I think, keepingit all in our brain, where
(18:42):
we've got the logical, rationalpart of our brain but we also
have the emotional arching overparanoid, it's primitive part of
our brain kind of mixing allthe stuff together.
And I think we can kind of undothat if we like write it out.
I mean, again, it takes timeand effort and energy to do that
and to say, hey, I'm going towrite and list this, all these
(19:04):
scenarios out.
So a lot of us don't do thatbecause it takes extra energy.
We don't want to do that, so,but we end up getting a
distorted sense of realitybecause it's all getting mixed
in here.
We're not putting it out intothe world reality-wise.
Charles (19:17):
Yeah, I think the problem we all get into where
the people pleasing and thecodependence will creep in.
I mean, one one indication ofthat and one way you can try to
get a handle on it is stop andask yourself how often am I
having thoughts like if I dothis, then they'll think that,
if I do this, then they'll saythat, and so when you are
(19:39):
starting to apply that level ofstrategizing to your personal
relationships, then that's agood indicator that you're
struggling with a lack ofconfidence, or just you're
struggling with lack you.
You feel like the world is aplace of scarcity where I might
not get my needs met.
Dan (19:57):
Yeah.
Charles (19:58):
And so I need to figure out ways to game the system so
that I can get what I want orwhat I need, because just
approaching it or asking for itwith directness isn't going to
work, because why would thatwork for me?
So I'm going to start coming upwith tactics and strategies to
get what I need out of peoplewithout them knowing that's what
I'm doing.
And then, yeah, that's whenit's clear that you're you're
(20:20):
trying to get access to thingsthat you want or need, that you
don't think you have a right to,that you don't think you've
earned, that you don't think youdeserve, and that's a very
precarious place to approach theworld from.
Dan (20:32):
Yeah.
Charles (20:33):
Because then when your machinations don't work out,
then you're going to end up withunmet needs and all the
resentment and fear and angerthat comes along with that.
Yeah, yeah.
So let's talk about let themjudge you.
No matter what you do, peoplewill find a way to have a
negative opinion on you.
I mean, there's a billion waysthat any decision you make to
(20:57):
slightly even just change youraesthetic for what you were to
work could have, could givepeople a reason to judge you and
think harshly about you I meanI think we kind of gloss over
the old wisdom of you can'tplease all the people all the
time.
Dan (21:11):
Right, it's almost so simple that we're just kind of
like, yeah, it's almost likelost its meaning, we don't
really think it through, buthere it applies.
I mean, it applies all the time.
Charles (21:18):
Yeah, there's a lot, you yourself all the time, right
, yeah, so there are a lot ofways that you will think to
yourself okay, what's the safeplay here?
And the result of that safe play, whether it's in the content
you choose for your podcast orthe way you audition for a role
in a TV show, the safe play isnever the one that gets you what
(21:42):
you're after, because you'retoo concerned, you're too in
your head about pleasingeveryone Instead of I'm just
going to show up for this date,for this job interview, for this
whatever as me, I'm going totry to be as me as I can be, and
then, whenever people say yesor no, whether they accept me or
reject me, they're accepting orrejecting exactly what I would
(22:02):
bring to the table, and sothat's a win.
And it's hard to look at thingsthat way.
It requires a level ofconfidence, and life is so
compartmentalized.
I've never had a problembringing that level of
confidence to a first date or toa job interview.
I can just show up that way andI'm just going to be me.
I'm going to make jokes aboutthings that I think are funny,
(22:23):
I'm going to make cracks, I'mgoing to ask questions, I'm
going to push back or challenge,because that's If you hire me
To be your boyfriend or to beyour employee.
That's what you're going to get.
How?
Dan (22:33):
much do you charge for the boyfriend?
Charles (22:37):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Dan (22:38):
A lot of decimal points.
Charles (22:39):
Yes, a lot of dots.
I'm going to show up.
I'm going to show up that way,a lot of decimal points, all the
decimal points.
Yeah, so I am going to show upthat way to a first date or job
interview, no problem, yeah,because I'm not looking to, I
don't people, please, people.
I just met.
That's ridiculous.
Who would do that?
No-transcript, and meanwhile,six months of that down the road
(23:32):
, it's like I'm bored ormiserable all the time and have
turned into a terrible partner.
And now you're also gettingtired of my bullshit too.
So you know that's what itcould turn into.
Uh, but yeah, not, it doesn'talways have to go that way, and
you can figure out ways to shortcircuit that.
By spending time in books, likewhat we're talking about and
(23:54):
the therapy and the supportgroups and all that stuff that
are available, you can let go ofsome of those tendencies to
default to uh, I gotta be thething that this scenario, this
situation requires, otherwiseI'll lose it all yeah, I think
that's.
Dan (24:09):
I could see it being tough going through the mental
exercise of acknowledging that Ican't control what other people
think.
I can't control what they do,so it's futile.
So why bother?
Worrying about what they'rethinking or doing are gonna say,
okay, so now that I'm notspending my time worrying about
(24:30):
what other people are thinkingand doing, I've got a lot of
time on my hands.
There's a vacuum like what am Igoing to do with this, with
these, with this mental energy?
What am I going to spend mytime?
My monkey mind wants to thinkabout something and chew on
something.
Oh, you just took dinner awayfrom me.
I can't chew on this anymore.
What's left now?
And that's kind of a scaryproposition at times too, I mean
(24:52):
your brain, you're so busy.
Charles (24:53):
I mean, yeah, and if you're an anxious person and
you've cut out of your sourcesof anxiety, your brain will find
new sources of anxiety.
And yeah, what it comes down tois I mean, that's the same
thing that people do dealingwith substance abuse can.
If you're a cigarette smokerand you just stop cigarettes,
then you're going to look forsomething else.
(25:13):
If you're an alcoholic and youstop drinking alcohol, how are
you soothing that anxiety Cause?
Dan (25:18):
that's what you're doing.
Charles (25:19):
Yeah, there's a root cause, or whatever you're trying
to medicate.
And then, if you take themedication away, your brain's
going to say I need to find anew form of medication, cause I
can't just live, yeah, without.
Dan (25:32):
It's a lot easier to swap a negative habit for a bad, a
good habit for a bad habit, butyou need to have something there
Most of the time to make thatan easier transition versus just
taking it away, Because againand even then, yeah, you're
avoiding what the root cause is,and even by maybe swapping out
the good habit for it.
Right, Like, all right, I'mfeeling anxious.
(25:53):
Instead of smoking, I'm goingto go for a walk every time.
Well, how come you're?
Why do you feel like you've gotto go for three or four walks a
day, Like?
Charles (26:00):
or you know what's causing that.
Yeah, and then some people oh,the walking's not enough.
I got to start running, andrunning an hour a day is not
enough.
I got to run for two hours.
I got to run for four hours.
I mean, that's not a problem, Ihave, obviously, but yeah.
I mean it can.
Yeah, I think that'stechnically called exercise
bulim.
Is that appalled to?
Dan (26:16):
there's a couple of people in my gym that used to be like
oh my God, you need to be in ahospital bed, not on the stair,
master, because you're so thin,like that's hard to see, yeah,
yeah.
Charles (26:27):
And eating disorders, I mean, yeah, the survivability
of those is, it's like, as badas some aggressive forms of
cancer.
Dan (26:37):
That's the thing to think about.
Well, cause, what are we doingother than we don't do anything
more than eating, other than,like, maybe, breathing every day
or drinking something?
Yeah, it's one of the mostcommon things we do every day,
all day long, for our entirelives.
So that's why people, I think,struggle with eating and stuff.
It's just our habits aroundthat are just so strong.
Charles (26:57):
Yeah, I was talking to some friends about that, how the
treatment for substance abuseis so different from some of the
other psychological disorders.
Because you can just not drinkalcohol anymore, you can just
stop using heroin.
But when it comes to loveaddiction, sex addiction, food
addiction, it's like abstinenceis just not an option for those.
For most of us at least, thiscould stop eating food, and none
(27:21):
of us can stop caring aboutbeing loved, and most of us
can't just give up sex for therest of our lives to, you know,
to become abstinent forever.
And so I'm not saying thatthose are harder, but they're
differently.
They're complex in ways thatsubstance drinking, alcohol or
smoking cigarettes is notcomplex.
Yeah, because you can't juststop doing those things and
you're not going to die.
You can't just stop eating foodor you will eventually die.
Dan (27:44):
Mm-hmm.
Charles (27:45):
Mm-hmm.
So, um, yeah, but those aresome of the ways that, uh, you
know you can.
You can trade one unhealthycoping mechanism for another one
, and sometimes you get yourselfin worse shape than you were
with the original problem yeah,than you were with the original
problem.
Dan (28:00):
Yeah.
Charles (28:00):
Yeah, yeah.
So let people, like you saidand it ties back to the to
chapter five assume that peopleare going to be thinking
negative things about you andlearn how to accept that and be
okay with it, and then you'renot going to find yourself doing
all these somersaults andbackflips to try to avoid
anything that might lead tojudgment or negative feelings or
(28:21):
negative thoughts.
Yeah, flips to try to avoidanything that might lead to
judgment or negative feelings ornegative thoughts.
Yeah, because, yeah, it's.
Nobody has ever crafted a lifefree of criticism from other
people.
If you do anything, if peopleknow you people, if you show up
for anything, it's possiblesomebody is going to have an
issue with the way that you'veshown up, no matter how hard you
work at trying to make all thepeople happy, all the time yeah,
(28:43):
what's interesting is, in fact,you'll turn yourself into a try
hard, and then people like mewill complain about you.
Dan (28:49):
Oh, that guy and I don't think she I don't know if she
addressed it in this, thesechapters, or if he does in the
book, or if it's a differentform, but I'm just wondering
okay, so now that you'reassuming that everybody on the
planet has will have some sortof negative thoughts about you,
or what do you do with thatinformation now?
Like, how do you come to termswith that?
(29:12):
And I guess I'm answering myown question here is you look at
what reality is and you look atokay, people are still pretty
kind to me, or pretty nice, orthey're not people.
I still have people in my life.
So, yeah, maybe theconsequences of them thinking
negative thoughts and makingnegative posts and stuff like
that isn't as bad as I thoughtit was.
Charles (29:31):
Right, I mean, yeah, if you think about the best, most
romantic day you've ever hadwith your partner, sometime that
day they thought something lessthan ideal about you and you
still had an amazing day withthem and the better day you had
at work.
One of your co-workers stillhad a negative thought that if,
(29:52):
if your co-workers all hadactual thought bubbles around
their head where you could seewhat they were thinking all the
time, you would see some thingsthat would hurt your feeling.
Even on the best professionalday you've had of your life,
even if you were delivering yourdissertation to get your PhD
and it went really great andstill point, somebody still
probably had a thought that ifyou knew that they thought that
thing exactly, you'd be like,ooh, that hurts a little bit.
Dan (30:12):
I think the other piece of that is also realizing that you
aren't the only contributingfactor to them having a negative
thought, right so?
Charles (30:18):
sometimes, so you're going to fall.
Dan (30:24):
It's a negative thought, right?
So sometimes, so you get afalse even about you, aren't
about you, right?
They could have had a horriblenight's sleep the night before,
they could have missed a meal,and I mean they even do that.
I'm sure you've heard of thatstudy.
I think they did a bunch of.
They interviewed a bunch ofjudges in Israel, whatever,
basically, and they basicallywho they treated people before
lunch versus after lunch.
Yeah For whether they're comingup for parole, whether they
voted yes or no.
And it was radically moredenials before lunch when they
(30:44):
were hungry.
Right, it was enough of a swingto not be right and it was just
right and so that's like theultimate negative thought right
denial of your parole.
So, yeah, that's about as badas it gets, the worst scenario I
mean think about it like wedon't make our best decisions
when our physical needs are noton par peak performance.
Charles (31:01):
So, knowing that it also waters down the amount of
influence or attribution to thatnegative thought that you
should place on the thing thatyou just did, and what you think
you might need to do about itor what you expect somebody else
to do about it too, cause I, Imean, yeah, mean, yeah, I, it's
very easy.
If it's very easy.
(31:23):
If your partner, for example,is in a bad mood, if you take
that on and say, okay, she's ina bad mood, it must be because
of something I've done.
Yeah, if that's true, thentherefore, well, if she's in a
bad mood because of something Idid and I'm a hundred percent
the cause of her bad mood, thenI've also got all the control to
fix it.
Yeah, and so if it's all myfault, then it's also all in my
(31:47):
control.
If I'm uncomfortable with thefact that she's feeling a little
down today and I take a hundredpercent responsibility for her
current state, then it's also ahundred percent of my
responsibility to fix it.
So now it's time to let me takeaway your individuality and
your autonomy and start diggingin to fix it.
So now it's time to let me takeaway your individuality and
your autonomy and start diggingin to fix your problem for you.
And that's even worse to do tosomebody when they're already in
(32:10):
a bad mood no, it's yeah Ispeak from experience.
All right, dan, let's stop itthere today I'll try to remember
what the introduction to thenext section was, but I don't,
do you recall?
I do not.
Let me see real quick Focus onlong-term vision and dynamics of
friendship, particularly in thecontext of adult relationships.
Acceptance and understandingand friendships recognizing
(32:33):
connections may evolve or fadeover time due to various factors
.
Sounds good, all right.
Thanks, we'll pick it up therenext week.
Thanks, all right.
Thanks so much for listening tothe entire episode.
We'll be back next week withthe next couple of chapters.
Please follow our website,mindfullymasculinecom, for audio
episodes, video episodes andanything else we feel like
sharing.
Thanks, see you next time.
And something that resonated with me was she's like
how many times can you controlyour own thoughts?
A lot of times you've got likerandom thoughts that pop in your
head out of nowhere that aren'tgood.
So for you to expect thateverybody's going to like you
all the time or never havenegative thoughts about you,
that's ludicrous.
You can't even control your ownthoughts.
Charles (00:18):
You can try and control somebody else's.
Welcome back to the MindfullyMasculine Podcast.
This is Charles All right Today.
Welcome back to the MindfullyMasculine Podcast.
This is Charles Alright.
Today, dan and I are diving intochapters 5 and 6 of the Let
them Theory by Mel Robbins.
These chapters ask a simple butbrutal question what if people
are going to judge you no matterwhat you do?
What if loving you and beingannoyed by you aren't mutually
(00:39):
exclusive?
We get into the tribal roots ofpeople-pleasing, the trap of
codependent control and theweird relief that comes when you
finally stop trying to manageeveryone's opinion of you.
Let's get into it.
And some good stuff in here,some stuff that I do.
I am struck by her what feelsto me to be her occasional tone
deafness when it comes talkingabout this theory and how people
(01:02):
work in her own life and thingslike that, where I mean, let's
talk about the need for approvalthat we all experience when it
comes to we choose our actionsbased on, in large part, what
other people will think of us.
Have you ever seen the movie myDinner with Andre?
No, neither have I, but I saw aclip about it this week on
(01:27):
Instagram, facebook, one of theplatforms where this guy was
talking about it and apparentlyit's a fairly it's an old movie,
I think it's like 40 years oldbut and it mainly takes place in
a restaurant where these twoguys who are maybe casual
friends or acquaintances they Ithink one of them just like
(01:48):
returned from, just like kind ofdisappearing, going off on like
a trip or something, and hecomes back and it's basically
them just having a conversationat dinner.
Okay, and the one guy I thinkit's andre.
His position is I basicallywent off and explored the world
all on my own and learned aboutdifferent people, different
(02:09):
cultures.
And I come back to modern lifehere and I think it was New York
City, and it occurs to me thatall anybody ever does is spend
their time satisfying socialconventions, like all we do are
the things that society expectsus to do, where you know these
people outside of modern societyand more these more remote
(02:31):
countries and villages that Ivisited, like they have a more
meaningful life because they'renot so concerned about image and
reputation and things.
And again, this is all based ona clip I saw about the movie.
Yeah, guys often commentary onit.
The other character is like no,the choices we make are just as
meaningful.
We just have a different kindof social network than they do.
(02:55):
And so when she gets into thischapter about the importance of
doing what you want to do andnot being so concerned with
other, what other people aregoing to think about you?
It's like and she evenacknowledges that's easy to say
it you want to do and not beingso concerned with other, what
other people are going to thinkabout you?
It's like and she evenacknowledges that's easy to say
it's hard to do, right, it'shard to do because if the tribe
doesn't accept you, you'll die.
Dan (03:16):
Yeah.
Charles (03:16):
And that's the hardware that we're all still running
off of.
So it's like, yes, we shouldall, we should all sort of
inject a little bit more of thatI'm going to do what's right
for me attitude into the choiceswe make.
But we also need to keep inmind we are social primates that
are running on that kind ofhardware that says if the group
(03:38):
isn't actively invested in yourwellbeing, then you're going to
die alone.
Dan (03:44):
Yeah, in your wellbeing, then you're going to die alone.
Yeah, I think my takeaway wasthat and if you remember, in the
book she talks about a lot oftimes when she's talking to
somebody and they're scared todo something.
She'll ask them questions likewhy are you scared to do this?
Well, I'm scared of what myfriends will think.
And then she starts to kind ofbring it back and ask the hard
(04:09):
not hard questions, but realityquestions.
Well, which friends do youthink are going to judge you?
Or I'm going to look stupid.
And she's like look stupid towho, right?
And so a lot of these are justher asking the next level
question of these assumptionsthat we all tend to make on a
surface level, because we havethat built in genetic
predisposition predisposition toworry about what the tribe is
(04:31):
going to think for our ownsurvival.
So I my takeaway from thischapter was just a lot of how
we're operating is onassumptions and worries that are
not based in reality.
Yes, that's true.
Yeah and yes, that's a, whereaslike these he's like remote,
like in that dinner from Andre.
You're talking about dinnerwith Andre.
The people that he was talkingabout might be.
(04:53):
It might be more meaningfulbecause the feedback that you're
able to get in a smaller groupis reality right and they're.
Charles (05:03):
They're close.
They're closer to theirconsequences than we are.
Dan (05:06):
That too.
So in that case, yeah, it'smore meaningful because it's
more based in reality, whereas alot of the way we're operating
now isn't as meaningful becauseit's not really based in reality
.
It's based on.
Charles (05:19):
That's true.
I mean, yes, we do need to.
We do need to make the kinds ofchoices that get a certain
level of approval from thepeople in our lives, so that
they stay in our lives and wecan continue to rely on their
support.
The problem comes in when youstart making decisions based on
(05:40):
what you think people willapprove or disapprove of, when
it's not even accurate.
Dan (05:43):
Yeah.
Charles (05:44):
And that's the thing, that that's the takeaway I'm
trying to focus on from thesechapters, where what she's
saying is don't say to yourselfI'm just not going to care what
people think anymore.
It's don't tell yourselfinaccurate stories about what
people are going to think or notthink.
Dan (05:59):
Yeah, I appreciated that because she was like of course
we're going to care what peoplethink, right.
And we should Absolutely Ahundred percent, but it's just
how much power or weight are wegiving them?
I the other thing that I likedwhen she said just assume people
are going to have negativethoughts about you.
Charles (06:17):
I like that too, yeah.
Dan (06:18):
And she said a lot of times , perfect example, like her big
hairy dog jumps on her lap andshe gets annoyed and says he
needs to basically controlhimself and be better behaved,
but doesn't take away from thelove that she has for the dog.
And what helped me also waswhen she said two things can be
true at the same time.
You can be really annoyed bysomebody in your family or
(06:41):
friend group or whatever, butstill love them and that doesn't
take away from the love.
So just assume that people aregoing to have negative thoughts
about you when you are doinganything that perhaps makes you
feel a little bit nervous byputting yourself out in public,
and I absolutely need to takethat advice as well.
Charles (07:00):
Yeah, I think one of the interesting points that was
made in chapter five is thatsacrificing what you want in
order to please other people isnot a sign of virtue.
Like sometimes I have to remindmyself that people like adults
(07:29):
have members of their family oforigin in their lives in a way
where they're like talking orcatching up or conversing on
like a daily basis, and so I'vehad to make do with finding my
own family in other ways.
But yeah, like it's, it must betough where it's like I love
you and I want to be around you,but you're making it hard.
It's like if it's only theyou're making it hard, the easy
(07:51):
decision.
Dan (07:51):
Yeah, fix that Right.
Charles (07:53):
No problem yeah.
Dan (07:54):
Yeah, yeah.
Charles (07:55):
So I do understand some level of people pleasing and
saying yes to things that youdon't want to say yes to.
Dan (08:02):
I just don't understand it on that level with mommy, daddy,
grandma, grandpa I mean youcould basically, I think you
swap out a friendship you'vebuilt for years, right when
there's been years of valuebetween the two of you, where
you're just like oh, I'm notgoing to throw this away because
this certainly went right, socertainly had that.
Charles (08:21):
I've had it in romantic relationships as well, where
it's like, okay, this is notgoing well, but I don't want to,
I don't want to 86 it, becausethere's a lot of good stuff here
too.
I get that, yeah, yeah, I.
Just when people tell me theirstory about how hard it is to
relate to their mom and dad oraunts or uncles or grandmas or
grandpas, I'm like, yeah, what,it's not hard, just hang out
when you want to and when youdon't, you don't Right, like
(08:44):
what's the problem?
Yeah, it seems cut and dry.
Dan (08:46):
Yeah, and that's where she tries to get you to almost, I
feel, with the letter.
Almost.
Yeah, it's kind of like a letgo of that obligation and
attachment that you have.
Charles (08:56):
Yeah, On some level I've been doing that with
certain people in my life for along time, before I ever heard
of this book.
Right, yeah, it's just like.
Yeah, at some point you do themath and I think all of us who
have initiated breakups ordivorces or just had to give up
on friendships maybe a lot ofpeople don't have my experience
where you've had to do it withyour family of origin but most
(09:18):
of us have gotten to the pointwhere we're like, okay, look,
I've had to do the math on thisrelationship equation and it's
been a negative number for solong.
Dan (09:28):
It's time to just say enough's enough.
And I think it's so much easierto do that based on the amount
of value that you've gotten outof that relationship.
So if you've been getting atremendous amount of value, I
feel you might have a tremendousamount of guilt when you try to
lay down the law with yourselfand force your own boundaries.
But if you haven't been gettingmuch out of it, it's kind of
like a well, it's like I'm not.
(09:49):
I'm also, and I think it kindof shows itself in the form of
feeling guilty about enforcingyour boundaries, because now
you're almost scared to losethat value.
If you do, you've got somethingto lose, you've got something
to risk by putting up those andenforcing those boundaries.
Charles (10:07):
Yeah.
Dan (10:07):
So but you know, when I've done that in my own for my own
family and friends and I've donea form of let me and just kind
of let them do what they want todo, it's more of a let them
kind of thing Right, and then atthat point the relationship
usually got better because itlike let me, let go of my
(10:27):
expectations and the stories andthe things I wanted those other
people to do or be or behavelike, and once I did that, like
it brought my stress level downand that show and she talks
about this I showed up ashappier and more open and
friendlier to those people andit definitely made things better
(10:51):
.
Charles (10:51):
Yeah, and I had to learn myself over a couple of
years of studying codependencyand how it made an invest in
myself that you know peoplepleasing and giving people what
you think they want.
It's a another mechanism ofcontrol and, in many cases,
manipulation, whereas it's likeyou don't think about it like
that.
Dan (11:09):
You're like oh, I'm the good person because I'm doing.
I'm doing what you want me todo.
I think she mentions that inone of these chapters where it's
just like no, you're actuallybeing very manipulative, yeah,
and that's something.
By trying to get them to likeyou, no matter what.
Charles (11:23):
Yeah, people who struggled codependency don't.
Really it's difficult to acceptthat realization and own it,
that just because you're willingto sacrifice for other people
and do the things that you thinkwill fill their needs, it's
like it's still in many cases away to just kind of craft this
life where you're theindisposable person that they
(11:45):
rely on and they get theirfulfillment on, because you're
always willing to do what youthink they need to have done for
them.
Dan (11:52):
And when you don't get that expectation back, you don't get
your expectation met of whatyou think you should be getting
back from doing all this, itturns to resentment on a dime.
Well, instantly, yeah.
Charles (12:05):
Like you with my, I had this unspoken expectation of
what your gratitude would looklike for this thing.
You didn't ask me to do it, youdidn't give it to me, so you're
a piece of shit.
Yeah, and it does.
It can turn into that sometimes.
Dan (12:18):
And the funny thing is I think a lot of us don't realize
that, yeah, sometimes it willturn into like a, like a
resentment, and it will be avery obvious like blow up.
But until that happens, it's aslow burn and it starts to eat
out in other ways of yourbehaving and your communication
and your language and yourstress level.
And yeah, you're, you'remessing yourself up, but you're
(12:46):
also messing up thatrelationship without it's like.
It's like boiling the frogright, like you're turning it up
slowly and you're just doingmore and more damage and not
even realizing what you're doingI think a lot of that.
I'm guilty of that for sure.
Charles (12:52):
Yeah, no, yeah, me too.
It wears on you because, yeah,you've.
I mean, it goes back to whatwe've been talking about for two
almost I guess, three years now, with with so many of the
issues that men struggle with.
It's these covert contracts,and this book is a lot,
especially when it comes torelating to other people.
It's yeah, you have thisexpectation.
(13:14):
If I do this, then people willtreat me this way, even though
you're not telling anybody that.
You're just working on thisassumption that if I do the
right things by the right people, then I'll have this easy,
comfortable life where everybodyloves me.
Yeah, and what's in?
Dan (13:31):
It's manipulative.
Yeah, you know what'sinteresting is humans, we've
evolved a lot based on the toolsthat we've created over the
millennia, and so in thoserespects, we've kind of
conditioned ourselves to say wedo X, this is what happens, the
Y happens.
Right, we use a tool and thisis the result we get, and I
(13:51):
think we're we end up applyingthat to our behaviors and our
communication with other people.
So we do, this is what shouldbe happening, this is what
should come out of it, right,and that is, we're not able to
control that.
And so now we're trying tocontrol the uncontrollable.
And something that resonatedwith me was she's like how many
times can you control your ownthoughts?
A lot of times you've got likerandom thoughts that pop in your
(14:14):
head out of nowhere that aren'tgood.
So for you to expect thateverybody's going to like you
all the time or never havenegative thoughts about you,
that's ludicrous.
You can't even control your ownthoughts.
You can try and controlsomebody else's.
So for me, I was able torelease my thoughts about it, or
my predispositions about this,when she's like hey, let them
(14:36):
have negative thoughts about you, Expect that they're going to
have negative thoughts about youRight, I was like huh, all
right.
Charles (14:42):
And that's hard because , especially if you lean on the
controlling, codependent side ofthings, where you know you're
codependentent but you also wantto control things and you have
those control patterns it's likeit's hard for me to accept deep
down in my core that someonecan occasionally think bad
(15:02):
things about me and still loveme and still want to stick
around yeah it's like no.
This experience has to be 100positive and perfect all the
time otherwise you're going toleave Love or hate Right.
Like one of the right.
Yeah, it's a simple way tothink about it.
I mean, if I mean, if you'reessentially a monkey, that when
you flip the switch up you getfood, and then when you slip it
on a down to zone, then, yeah,you're going to be conditioned
(15:23):
to think that way.
Dan (15:26):
Start a fire, you right, or ?
Charles (15:29):
yeah, it is.
We'll get you from point a topoint b.
Dan (15:31):
It's like tempting to look at people as tools sometimes
that's the model, that's thekind of the brain that we're
working with this chapter wasgood.
Charles (15:40):
Like I said, there were some things where it's just
hard to take these kinds ofthoughts and simplify them down
to the point where you can fitthem in a book and and that was
one of the things I thought of,like when she's talking about
how you do what you want to doand don't care, you know, what
other people think.
It's like okay, you say that,but even in the process of
(16:00):
writing and marketing this book,you're not doing that.
It's like you care very muchabout all these words that
you're reading to me in thisaudio book or putting down a
paper.
They're very curated, verycurated.
Sure, as a part of yourfunction to sell books, like you
, you want me to respond to youin a certain way so that I buy
your product, and you need me tobuy your product because you
(16:21):
want these ideas to be out thereand you want to be, if not
wealthy, certainly financiallyindependent.
So, yeah, I feel like shedoesn't caveat the complexity of
some of the things she talksabout quite enough to say, yeah,
we are all going to always beconvinced or concerned with what
other people think of us.
Dan (16:39):
Yeah, that's a deep Born to when we die.
Yeah, that's a lot of.
There's a lot of work just towork on that.
Like a lot of, yeah, but.
Charles (16:56):
Things that need to be done in order to get through
that or get over that type of ornot let it paralyze you, I
think for me, for me it's.
It ends up making meprocrastinate or paralyze, and I
don't let it.
And especially the mostimportant version of this, at
least to me feels like don't beparalyzed by your false ideas
about what people will think ofyou.
And that's the thing is see,it's not the gotta.
Remember, if you areobjectively concerned with, okay
, if I have a job that requiresa suit and I just don't feel
(17:19):
like wearing a suit into workone day, there could be some
very real consequences to thatdecision.
Like I, it's clear that when Ishow up on my job at wall street
, I'm supposed to wear a suitand tie.
I don't feel like it and I I'mnot going to do it to please
other people, so I'm just goingto walk in there in shorts and a
t-shirt.
I was like, okay, you can dothat if you want to do that, but
(17:39):
to think to yourself, well, I'dlike to wear shorts and a
t-shirt to work today, but I'mnot going to do that because of
what other people might think ofme.
Like, good you, you should inthat exact scenario.
Dan (17:56):
you should be concerned.
What other people will think ofyou?
And I think that's where thework begins, because then you
have to say is well, what willhappen?
What kinds of things willpeople think about?
And then what will happen?
You got to keep going step bystep.
So then what would happen?
Well, I might lose respectaround the office.
Okay, what does that mean?
Well, I might not be eligiblebehaving outside of norms.
(18:18):
Behaving outside of, radicallyoutside of norms with no good
reason for it.
Yeah, so there is and are thosethings important to you?
If they're not, then yeah, goahead and wear those shorts.
But yeah, I think what happensis under the cover, is where we
do that processing and thatthinking of those steps ahead,
and that's where we can kind ofgo wrong, because it's Because
it's we're now, I think, keepingit all in our brain, where
(18:42):
we've got the logical, rationalpart of our brain but we also
have the emotional arching overparanoid, it's primitive part of
our brain kind of mixing allthe stuff together.
And I think we can kind of undothat if we like write it out.
I mean, again, it takes timeand effort and energy to do that
and to say, hey, I'm going towrite and list this, all these
(19:04):
scenarios out.
So a lot of us don't do thatbecause it takes extra energy.
We don't want to do that, so,but we end up getting a
distorted sense of realitybecause it's all getting mixed
in here.
We're not putting it out intothe world reality-wise.
Charles (19:17):
Yeah, I think the problem we all get into where
the people pleasing and thecodependence will creep in.
I mean, one one indication ofthat and one way you can try to
get a handle on it is stop andask yourself how often am I
having thoughts like if I dothis, then they'll think that,
if I do this, then they'll saythat, and so when you are
(19:39):
starting to apply that level ofstrategizing to your personal
relationships, then that's agood indicator that you're
struggling with a lack ofconfidence, or just you're
struggling with lack you.
You feel like the world is aplace of scarcity where I might
not get my needs met.
Dan (19:57):
Yeah.
Charles (19:58):
And so I need to figure out ways to game the system so
that I can get what I want orwhat I need, because just
approaching it or asking for itwith directness isn't going to
work, because why would thatwork for me?
So I'm going to start coming upwith tactics and strategies to
get what I need out of peoplewithout them knowing that's what
I'm doing.
And then, yeah, that's whenit's clear that you're you're
(20:20):
trying to get access to thingsthat you want or need, that you
don't think you have a right to,that you don't think you've
earned, that you don't think youdeserve, and that's a very
precarious place to approach theworld from.
Dan (20:32):
Yeah.
Charles (20:33):
Because then when your machinations don't work out,
then you're going to end up withunmet needs and all the
resentment and fear and angerthat comes along with that.
Yeah, yeah.
So let's talk about let themjudge you.
No matter what you do, peoplewill find a way to have a
negative opinion on you.
I mean, there's a billion waysthat any decision you make to
(20:57):
slightly even just change youraesthetic for what you were to
work could have, could givepeople a reason to judge you and
think harshly about you I meanI think we kind of gloss over
the old wisdom of you can'tplease all the people all the
time.
Dan (21:11):
Right, it's almost so simple that we're just kind of
like, yeah, it's almost likelost its meaning, we don't
really think it through, buthere it applies.
I mean, it applies all the time.
Charles (21:18):
Yeah, there's a lot, you yourself all the time, right
, yeah, so there are a lot ofways that you will think to
yourself okay, what's the safeplay here?
And the result of that safe play, whether it's in the content
you choose for your podcast orthe way you audition for a role
in a TV show, the safe play isnever the one that gets you what
(21:42):
you're after, because you'retoo concerned, you're too in
your head about pleasingeveryone Instead of I'm just
going to show up for this date,for this job interview, for this
whatever as me, I'm going totry to be as me as I can be, and
then, whenever people say yesor no, whether they accept me or
reject me, they're accepting orrejecting exactly what I would
(22:02):
bring to the table, and sothat's a win.
And it's hard to look at thingsthat way.
It requires a level ofconfidence, and life is so
compartmentalized.
I've never had a problembringing that level of
confidence to a first date or toa job interview.
I can just show up that way andI'm just going to be me.
I'm going to make jokes aboutthings that I think are funny,
(22:23):
I'm going to make cracks, I'mgoing to ask questions, I'm
going to push back or challenge,because that's If you hire me
To be your boyfriend or to beyour employee.
That's what you're going to get.
How?
Dan (22:33):
much do you charge for the boyfriend?
Charles (22:37):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Dan (22:38):
A lot of decimal points.
Charles (22:39):
Yes, a lot of dots.
I'm going to show up.
I'm going to show up that way,a lot of decimal points, all the
decimal points.
Yeah, so I am going to show upthat way to a first date or job
interview, no problem, yeah,because I'm not looking to, I
don't people, please, people.
I just met.
That's ridiculous.
Who would do that?
No-transcript, and meanwhile,six months of that down the road
(23:32):
, it's like I'm bored ormiserable all the time and have
turned into a terrible partner.
And now you're also gettingtired of my bullshit too.
So you know that's what itcould turn into.
Uh, but yeah, not, it doesn'talways have to go that way, and
you can figure out ways to shortcircuit that.
By spending time in books, likewhat we're talking about and
(23:54):
the therapy and the supportgroups and all that stuff that
are available, you can let go ofsome of those tendencies to
default to uh, I gotta be thething that this scenario, this
situation requires, otherwiseI'll lose it all yeah, I think
that's.
Dan (24:09):
I could see it being tough going through the mental
exercise of acknowledging that Ican't control what other people
think.
I can't control what they do,so it's futile.
So why bother?
Worrying about what they'rethinking or doing are gonna say,
okay, so now that I'm notspending my time worrying about
(24:30):
what other people are thinkingand doing, I've got a lot of
time on my hands.
There's a vacuum like what am Igoing to do with this, with
these, with this mental energy?
What am I going to spend mytime?
My monkey mind wants to thinkabout something and chew on
something.
Oh, you just took dinner awayfrom me.
I can't chew on this anymore.
What's left now?
And that's kind of a scaryproposition at times too, I mean
(24:52):
your brain, you're so busy.
Charles (24:53):
I mean, yeah, and if you're an anxious person and
you've cut out of your sourcesof anxiety, your brain will find
new sources of anxiety.
And yeah, what it comes down tois I mean, that's the same
thing that people do dealingwith substance abuse can.
If you're a cigarette smokerand you just stop cigarettes,
then you're going to look forsomething else.
(25:13):
If you're an alcoholic and youstop drinking alcohol, how are
you soothing that anxiety Cause?
Dan (25:18):
that's what you're doing.
Charles (25:19):
Yeah, there's a root cause, or whatever you're trying
to medicate.
And then, if you take themedication away, your brain's
going to say I need to find anew form of medication, cause I
can't just live, yeah, without.
Dan (25:32):
It's a lot easier to swap a negative habit for a bad, a
good habit for a bad habit, butyou need to have something there
Most of the time to make thatan easier transition versus just
taking it away, Because againand even then, yeah, you're
avoiding what the root cause is,and even by maybe swapping out
the good habit for it.
Right, Like, all right, I'mfeeling anxious.
(25:53):
Instead of smoking, I'm goingto go for a walk every time.
Well, how come you're?
Why do you feel like you've gotto go for three or four walks a
day, Like?
Charles (26:00):
or you know what's causing that.
Yeah, and then some people oh,the walking's not enough.
I got to start running, andrunning an hour a day is not
enough.
I got to run for two hours.
I got to run for four hours.
I mean, that's not a problem, Ihave, obviously, but yeah.
I mean it can.
Yeah, I think that'stechnically called exercise
bulim.
Is that appalled to?
Dan (26:16):
there's a couple of people in my gym that used to be like
oh my God, you need to be in ahospital bed, not on the stair,
master, because you're so thin,like that's hard to see, yeah,
yeah.
Charles (26:27):
And eating disorders, I mean, yeah, the survivability
of those is, it's like, as badas some aggressive forms of
cancer.
Dan (26:37):
That's the thing to think about.
Well, cause, what are we doingother than we don't do anything
more than eating, other than,like, maybe, breathing every day
or drinking something?
Yeah, it's one of the mostcommon things we do every day,
all day long, for our entirelives.
So that's why people, I think,struggle with eating and stuff.
It's just our habits aroundthat are just so strong.
Charles (26:57):
Yeah, I was talking to some friends about that, how the
treatment for substance abuseis so different from some of the
other psychological disorders.
Because you can just not drinkalcohol anymore, you can just
stop using heroin.
But when it comes to loveaddiction, sex addiction, food
addiction, it's like abstinenceis just not an option for those.
For most of us at least, thiscould stop eating food, and none
(27:21):
of us can stop caring aboutbeing loved, and most of us
can't just give up sex for therest of our lives to, you know,
to become abstinent forever.
And so I'm not saying thatthose are harder, but they're
differently.
They're complex in ways thatsubstance drinking, alcohol or
smoking cigarettes is notcomplex.
Yeah, because you can't juststop doing those things and
you're not going to die.
You can't just stop eating foodor you will eventually die.
Dan (27:44):
Mm-hmm.
Charles (27:45):
Mm-hmm.
So, um, yeah, but those aresome of the ways that, uh, you
know you can.
You can trade one unhealthycoping mechanism for another one
, and sometimes you get yourselfin worse shape than you were
with the original problem yeah,than you were with the original
problem.
Dan (28:00):
Yeah.
Charles (28:00):
Yeah, yeah.
So let people, like you saidand it ties back to the to
chapter five assume that peopleare going to be thinking
negative things about you andlearn how to accept that and be
okay with it, and then you'renot going to find yourself doing
all these somersaults andbackflips to try to avoid
anything that might lead tojudgment or negative feelings or
(28:21):
negative thoughts.
Yeah, flips to try to avoidanything that might lead to
judgment or negative feelings ornegative thoughts.
Yeah, because, yeah, it's.
Nobody has ever crafted a lifefree of criticism from other
people.
If you do anything, if peopleknow you people, if you show up
for anything, it's possiblesomebody is going to have an
issue with the way that you'veshown up, no matter how hard you
work at trying to make all thepeople happy, all the time yeah,
(28:43):
what's interesting is, in fact,you'll turn yourself into a try
hard, and then people like mewill complain about you.
Dan (28:49):
Oh, that guy and I don't think she I don't know if she
addressed it in this, thesechapters, or if he does in the
book, or if it's a differentform, but I'm just wondering
okay, so now that you'reassuming that everybody on the
planet has will have some sortof negative thoughts about you,
or what do you do with thatinformation now?
Like, how do you come to termswith that?
(29:12):
And I guess I'm answering myown question here is you look at
what reality is and you look atokay, people are still pretty
kind to me, or pretty nice, orthey're not people.
I still have people in my life.
So, yeah, maybe theconsequences of them thinking
negative thoughts and makingnegative posts and stuff like
that isn't as bad as I thoughtit was.
Charles (29:31):
Right, I mean, yeah, if you think about the best, most
romantic day you've ever hadwith your partner, sometime that
day they thought something lessthan ideal about you and you
still had an amazing day withthem and the better day you had
at work.
One of your co-workers stillhad a negative thought that if,
(29:52):
if your co-workers all hadactual thought bubbles around
their head where you could seewhat they were thinking all the
time, you would see some thingsthat would hurt your feeling.
Even on the best professionalday you've had of your life,
even if you were delivering yourdissertation to get your PhD
and it went really great andstill point, somebody still
probably had a thought that ifyou knew that they thought that
thing exactly, you'd be like,ooh, that hurts a little bit.
Dan (30:12):
I think the other piece of that is also realizing that you
aren't the only contributingfactor to them having a negative
thought, right so?
Charles (30:18):
sometimes, so you're going to fall.
Dan (30:24):
It's a negative thought, right?
So sometimes, so you get afalse even about you, aren't
about you, right?
They could have had a horriblenight's sleep the night before,
they could have missed a meal,and I mean they even do that.
I'm sure you've heard of thatstudy.
I think they did a bunch of.
They interviewed a bunch ofjudges in Israel, whatever,
basically, and they basicallywho they treated people before
lunch versus after lunch.
Yeah For whether they're comingup for parole, whether they
voted yes or no.
And it was radically moredenials before lunch when they
(30:44):
were hungry.
Right, it was enough of a swingto not be right and it was just
right and so that's like theultimate negative thought right
denial of your parole.
So, yeah, that's about as badas it gets, the worst scenario I
mean think about it like wedon't make our best decisions
when our physical needs are noton par peak performance.
Charles (31:01):
So, knowing that it also waters down the amount of
influence or attribution to thatnegative thought that you
should place on the thing thatyou just did, and what you think
you might need to do about itor what you expect somebody else
to do about it too, cause I, Imean, yeah, mean, yeah, I, it's
very easy.
If it's very easy.
(31:23):
If your partner, for example,is in a bad mood, if you take
that on and say, okay, she's ina bad mood, it must be because
of something I've done.
Yeah, if that's true, thentherefore, well, if she's in a
bad mood because of something Idid and I'm a hundred percent
the cause of her bad mood, thenI've also got all the control to
fix it.
Yeah, and so if it's all myfault, then it's also all in my
(31:47):
control.
If I'm uncomfortable with thefact that she's feeling a little
down today and I take a hundredpercent responsibility for her
current state, then it's also ahundred percent of my
responsibility to fix it.
So now it's time to let me takeaway your individuality and
your autonomy and start diggingin to fix it.
So now it's time to let me takeaway your individuality and
your autonomy and start diggingin to fix your problem for you.
And that's even worse to do tosomebody when they're already in
(32:10):
a bad mood no, it's yeah Ispeak from experience.
All right, dan, let's stop itthere today I'll try to remember
what the introduction to thenext section was, but I don't,
do you recall?
I do not.
Let me see real quick Focus onlong-term vision and dynamics of
friendship, particularly in thecontext of adult relationships.
Acceptance and understandingand friendships recognizing
(32:33):
connections may evolve or fadeover time due to various factors
.
Sounds good, all right.
Thanks, we'll pick it up therenext week.
Thanks, all right.
Thanks so much for listening tothe entire episode.
We'll be back next week withthe next couple of chapters.
Please follow our website,mindfullymasculinecom, for audio
episodes, video episodes andanything else we feel like
sharing.
Thanks, see you next time.
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