April 14, 2025 • 41 mins
In this thoughtful and engaging episode, Charles and Dan explore Chapter 8 of Dating Essentials for Men by Dr. Robert Glover, which takes aim at the common male fantasy of dating a "hot woman." Together, they unpack the psychological traps of prioritizing physical appearance over true compatibility and emotional connection.
The conversation dives into:
- What "hot" really means in Glover's context—and why it often translates to "vain"
- The danger of pedestalizing someone based on looks alone
- Real-life stories about relationships with high-status partners and what actually makes a relationship fulfilling
- How insecurity and over-investment can sabotage connection
- The difference between approach and attraction
- Why building a life you genuinely enjoy is the best way to attract the right partner
Charles and Dan also share personal stories about car shopping đźš—, confidence shifts post-divorce, and the power of living a fun, fulfilling life to naturally attract the right people.
Key Takeaways:
- Status-based dating can lead to imbalance and insecurity
- Authentic attraction is built on mutual interest, not cold approaches
- Shared values and emotional connection matter more than surface-level traits
- A life you love is more magnetic than one designed to impress
Next Episode:
Tune in next week as Charles and Dan continue their review of Dating Essentials for Men with Chapter 9: Create a Lifestyle That Attracts Women Naturally. They'll explore what it means to build a life that aligns with your values and passions—and how that naturally draws others to you.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Charles (00:00):
If your criteria for meeting a long-term partner
especially is just howattractive they are, okay, well
then, how good of a partner willeither going to decide, okay,
well, she's beautiful, but she'snot right for these other
(00:27):
reasons, and then you're goingto have to break up and that's
going to be rough on both of you.
It's better to really figureout what it is that you want,
how long you want it for, andmake decisions that line up with
those goals.
Welcome to the MindfullyMasculine Podcast.
This is Charles.
In this episode, Dan and I willcontinue discussing Part 1 of
Dating Essentials for Men by DrRobert Glover.
(00:48):
We're going to hit Chapter 8,where Dr Glover gives reasons
not to date hot women, as hedefines them.
So we will talk aboutunderstanding the hot woman myth
, the trap of status-drivendating, self-worth and
relationship power dynamics,attraction versus approach, the
Trap of Status-Driven Dating,self-worth and Relationship
Power Dynamics, attraction vsApproach, and we'll talk about
(01:08):
building an attractive life, notjust a pickup strategy.
Check out our website,mindfullymasculinecom, where you
can find full audio and videoepisodes, as well as any other
info we find worth sharing.
Enjoy the show.
Dan (01:22):
Good morning Charles.
How are you, man, I'm doing allright.
Charles (01:24):
How are you man?
I'm doing all right.
How are you?
Dan (01:26):
I'm doing well.
I like that artwork behind youthere.
I think that's the first timeI've seen that?
Charles (01:33):
Yeah, I can't remember if I've done an episode from my
camper since I hung that up.
It's a nice little.
Is that a collage?
No, it's a maybe it's a collage.
I don't know a collage.
No, it's a.
Maybe it's a collage.
I don't know.
It's not a mosaic, but it'syeah.
Six, six pieces of cutouts byHenri Matisse, who's one of my
favorite artists.
Oh nice, not originals, justprints.
Dan (01:54):
Oh, they're not the originals.
You didn't shrink down six ofthem and put them in there.
Oh, that's good.
It's good to know you destroy apart of history, yeah.
Charles (02:03):
I didn't.
I didn't buy the originals andthen wet them and then put them
in the dryer to shrink them andthen put them on my wall in my,
in my RV.
Dan (02:12):
Oh, you just do that in my clothes.
Charles (02:13):
Exactly so.
It's been been a week I had toget rid of my my, my lovely
little Z3 convertible that Ienjoyed so much for a year and a
half, turned out needed somethings to get fixed and I had to
do the math to decide whetherit was worth fixing them or not,
(02:35):
and it was not not even close.
Dan (02:37):
So you just sent them up to a farm in New York.
Charles (02:40):
I thought about that.
I thought about that exactly.
Upstate, new York, yes, as Igot rid of it.
Yeah, where where parents telltheir kids that the that the
family dog had to go.
Yeah, I really did think aboutthat exact word, imagery as I
was getting rid of it, likegotta, gotta send it upstate.
So you didn't tell me how thatall went down, so you took it to
(03:01):
CarMax or what'd you do get acarmax and the one of the issues
I had with it was a coolantleak and it was smoking like a
cheech and chong movie as Ipulled up the carmax.
So I was like this, this isn't,this isn't going to be good for
the, for the price that theyoffer me.
But here I am, the last yeah.
And so, yeah, I got I.
(03:23):
I got.
It was in the hundreds what Igot for it, not in the thousands
.
But you know it's a 27 year oldcar, 200,000 miles and
essentially on fire, so I washappy to take whatever they were
willing to give me for it.
Dan (03:38):
Yeah.
And so then I mean I know, yeah, you had the rental car, and
then how did you make it over tothe dealership, like what you
know went down to that.
Charles (03:48):
Before I drove to, I told you there's a.
I found a dealership.
I decided what kind of car Iwanted.
I was looking for a VolkswagenEos, a hard top convertible and
I'd found a dealership over inthe Largo area, which is near
Clearwater here by Tampa, andthey specialize in those.
And I thought, okay, well, I'mgoing to drive all the way over
(04:08):
to Largo, find whatever theyhave at this place and take the
best option that they haveavailable and then figure out
how to get the rental car backto Orlando's airport and then
get a bus, train,horse-drawnrawn carriage,
whatever I had to do to get backto the tampa area.
(04:29):
But you didn't take yourhelicopter.
No range, yeah, maybe I should.
Maybe I should get into thoselittle individual helicopters
like like bond used inthunderball uh, the probably
cheaper to to run than 27 yearold cars.
But but anyway, before I lefttown, I was like you know what,
let me open up Facebookmarketplace and see if there may
(04:50):
be something in Orlando thatthat fits the bill before I
engage in this insane crossstate travel.
And yeah, I found one rightclose to the airport.
So I was like, oh, that's good,if it works out, I could just
buy it there, then drive therental car back to the airport
and Uber to pick up my car andthen drive it back to your place
, and that's exactly whathappened I that's awesome found
(05:12):
a pretty good deal needed car,got a couple little things.
I mean any.
Any car I buy, as old as I liketo buy, is going to need a new
radio.
It's going to need little bellsand whistles and yeah, but the
the guys willing to negotiate Imade a list of all the things
that was going to take to get itroad ready or not really road
ready.
It was already road ready toget it to my level of comfort
(05:34):
that I require.
And I said, all right, I I'mgoing to have to spend a
thousand dollars on this, soI'll give you a thousand less
than you're asking.
And he was like, okay, and thenwe did it Nice.
Dan (05:46):
Any idea how long you had for sale for?
Charles (05:49):
13 days.
Oh, wow, okay All right, sothat's great that he was so so
flexible, so quickly.
Yeah, while he was selling ithis, his wife was getting to
drive it back and forth to work.
So she I don't know how happyshe was that it was selling, but
that's a problem, not mine.
You mean that's his problem?
Yeah, that's their problem, notmy problem.
(06:11):
Exactly, exactly.
Well, that's great.
New radio got delivered lastnight by Amazon.
I'm still waiting on a coupleof the accessories and then the
plan is tonight after work, whenI get home, I'm going to pop
out the old factory radio andput in the new Apple CarPlay
7-inch screen situation.
Because that's, I mean, that'sthe first thing I do.
(06:33):
Whenever I get a new used car,the first thing I do is put in a
decent radio.
Yeah, very nice.
Going to do that tonight.
And drove with the top downquite a bit yesterday.
Stopped, I decided to treatmyself to a shake shack lunch on
the way out of orlando.
Haven't been there in monthsand months and so I stopped and
got a burger and, yeah, it's,it's fun having.
(06:56):
Uh, I I had an issue with myold car for a while where one of
the power window on thepassenger side wouldn't go down
and so I would not ride with thetop down with a window stuck up
.
That looks insane so I wasn'twilling to do that.
But no such problem anymorewith the new one.
So I'm driving with the topdown quite a bit, I mean.
(07:16):
The other thing I really likeis the sound system in my z3 was
never really capable of makingthe podcast or the music I was
listening to loud enough where Icould actually hear and enjoy
it while the top was down.
But this new one's got it's gotspeakers all over the place and
they're pretty loud, so I can Ican ride at the top down and
listen to music.
Dan (07:36):
Yeah, it's a big difference .
Charles (07:38):
Yeah, definitely so.
Anyway, Great Congratulations.
Thanks, I got some.
I got a lot of travel coming upin the month of March.
We're recording this onFebruary 27th and I've got at
least one road trip up to theAtlanta area and I'll enjoy
making that with the new wheels.
It's also nice to.
I've got a car that's 11 yearsnewer and 105,000 miles newer,
(08:03):
so I can drive with much moreconfidence than than the last
one.
Yeah, but I would say so Istill.
I still am pretty addicted tothis idea of buying fun, cheap
cars for cash, not having tohave a monthly payment and then
driving it for a few years, andthen, when it gives up the ghost
, then I have.
I have a stressful three daysevery couple of years to find a
(08:25):
new car, but the rest of thetime is great.
I don't have to worry abouthigh insurance or car payments
or debt on a car or anythinglike that, and I get to drive
something that's fun.
Dan (08:35):
Hey, most of us have stressful few days every week,
so every couple of years?
No, no problem, sign me up.
Charles (08:45):
There you go.
Yeah, I'll, I'll take that planas long as I can.
All right, so let's get intochapter eight in dating
essentials for men.
Here's where Dr Glover listsout the many, many reasons why
we should not pursue what hedefines as hot women, and I
think we alluded to this at theend of the last episode, where
and I think we alluded to thisat the end of the last episode
(09:06):
where the word hot has a lot ofa lot of baggage, a lot of
connotation, you say you sitdown 10 guys and say tell me
what makes a hot woman.
You'll get 10 different answers, basically, so that that's
included with what Dr Glover iscalling a hot woman.
I think I mentioned last weekthat I thought when he says hot,
what he really means is vain.
Dan (09:29):
Yeah.
Charles (09:29):
But really, I mean, I think what he's really talking
about is a woman whose physicalbeauty or physical appearance
makes her an outlier in a waythat she feels the need to treat
her own appearance quitedifferently than most women, and
the men she encounters alsofind it necessary to treat her
(09:50):
differently than they wouldtreat most women.
Dan (09:53):
And she allows that to happen.
That's, I think, the key heretoo, like what you said her
being vain, because you canstill be really care about your
appearance, but then have a lotof other wonderful qualities
that are still going on and thatyou focus on, and it's not like
you don't let the looks takethe driver's seat here in terms
(10:15):
of your day-to-day life and yourinteraction.
Charles (10:18):
So I think what you had said is very accurate here in
terms of somebody who's vain ontop of having an outlier of of
looks, so to speak yeah, I think, I think, really what he's,
what he's alluding to, issomeone who is, yeah, really
investing time, effort, money inremaining at this very high
(10:45):
level of physical appearancebecause of what they feel that
it brings them.
And so if, if, if they're really, if they're really investing
heavily in maintaining I've,I've got to be a top 10%, top 5%
woman when it comes to physicalappearance.
That that is a choice and thatis a life that, you know, many
(11:08):
attractive women do choose forthemselves, but I can't imagine
that being around it is is a lotof fun.
I I've never dated a woman that, when he goes down the list of
what makes these women the waythat they are, I, yeah, I'm glad
to say I've never dated one ofthem who was it was that that
into cultivating her appearanceall the time and then had some
(11:33):
of the negative baggage thatwe're going to get into as a
result of that.
Dan (11:36):
Yeah, I, I, I can say the same that I've been.
I've been fairly lucky withwith that.
I mean I I've been fairly luckywith with that, I mean I I've
gotten, I've dated some peoplewho are close to that but not
entirely would would check off.
All of these was a 20 differentcriteria of why dating a hot
woman is not a good idea.
Charles (11:55):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
One weird thing where he's likeat the beginning of the chapter
, he's like when all the booksthat I've read on pickup and
seduction, no guy has everreally come across and said what
, what's the advantage of datingsuch a, such an attractive
(12:15):
woman?
And it's like okay, well, inyour whole chapter on
diaphragmic breathing you never,never, laid out why do people,
why do people need to breatheanyway?
It doesn't.
Nobody ever explained to me why.
Why do people need to breatheanyway?
Nobody ever explained to me whydo people want to breathe.
It's like okay, well, yeah, Imean I feel like the elephant in
the room is men often want todate the most attractive women
(12:39):
because of the status that itbrings them.
I mean, we learned way backwhen we, when we read 12 rules
for life by Jordan Peterson andhe talked about the lobsters and
how lobsters have a serotoninsystem very similar to humans,
where, as humans we are, we areconstantly checking our status,
subconsciously really, againstother people to try to figure
(13:01):
out, okay, where do we fit inthe pecking order, where are we
in the hierarchy?
And the same women.
The same reason that guys wantto date very attractive women is
the same reason they want todrive nice cars, they want to
have nice houses, they want tohave prestigious jobs.
They want to wear a Rolex or auh uh Omar Pegay on their wrist.
I mean, yeah it.
(13:21):
You feel better about yourselfwhen you think I've got
something other people want.
Dan (13:25):
they can't get it, but I did, and I think a lot of that
is what drives men to have theattitude of I want to date this
really insane outlier beauty,because I because of how people
will think about me if I do- Ithink the key to think about,
though, is if, if that's whyyou're you want to date somebody
at that level, it's difficultthen to expect other qualities
(13:51):
to necessarily be there Right,also make you feel, yeah, like
loved and appreciated and and bebe a good companion, like it's.
(14:13):
It's kind of it's notmulti-dimensional, right, and
it's it's a very transactionaltype of relationship at that
point, when you were reallyisolating it down to that just
one, that one aspect right.
So that's where I think you cankind of get in trouble is if
you're expecting more out of,out of the relationship that
you're building based on thatthat one, that one aspect.
Charles (14:36):
Yeah, I, I certainly agree with that, and yeah,
there's there's no guaranteethat.
I would say quite, quite theopposite is probably true, that
the if your criteria for meetinga long-term partner, especially
is just how attractive they are, okay, well then, how?
How good of a partner will theybe?
(14:58):
How good of a mother will theybe?
If you're willing to say, well,I'm going to ignore all those
things just to get this highlyattractive woman, then, okay,
well, at some point you'reeither going to decide, okay,
well, she's beautiful, but she'snot right for these other
reasons, and then you're goingto have to break up, and that's
going to be rough on both of you.
(15:19):
It's better to really figureout what it is that you want,
how long you want it for, andmake decisions that that line up
with those goals.
I mean, if, if you just want tohave the prettiest girl on your
arm for a party or somethinglike that, then okay, maybe,
maybe, that's fine.
It's not a decision I would make, though, because I being being
(15:41):
stuck next to somebody who'sreally good looking but we can't
have a fun conversation for thewhole night, that's, that's.
That's not a, that's not math.
That works for me.
Yeah, he brings us up, and Ithink the reason he wants to
talk us off of the ledge of oh,I've got a date, the most
(16:02):
attractive woman I can possiblyfind Part of it is because the
second half of that equation isand if I can't, then I just
won't date.
And he says a lot of sociallyanxious men, a lot of bad daters
, make that decision.
Like, if I can't date a womanwho is so beautiful that she
(16:24):
just knocks everybody's socksoff wherever she goes, and I
just won't date anybody at all,I'm not going to put any effort
into into preparing myself forthe dating marketplace, unless I
can.
I can get a 10 out of 10 everytime, and so it's.
It gives you that, that pass orthat excuse to say, well, it's
easier to just check out than itis to accept anything less than
(16:46):
perfection.
Dan (16:47):
Yeah, and it's real easy then to kind of blame the world
at that point instead of lookingat yourself to make the changes
that are uncomfortable.
Charles (16:54):
Yeah, and so, toward the bottom of this page that I'm
on right now, he he does go ina little bit detail, a little
bit more detail on hisdefinition.
He says my definition of a hotwoman is a woman who needs to be
noticed and validated for herphysical appearance.
This is not the same as havingnatural attractiveness or
wanting to look nice.
So, yeah, based on thatdefinition, I think he and I are
mostly aligned with what he'stalking about.
(17:16):
A woman needs to be noticed andvalidated for her physical
appearance.
Um, it it is.
It is a fact that you shoulddate people, that you are
attracted to both men and women.
But just be aware that ifyou're going for somebody who is
well outside of your age rangeand even well outside of your
(17:37):
own level of physicalattractiveness, um, whether it's
because you feel like you haveto or not, you're, you're going
to invest more work in keepingthat relationship than should be
necessary.
If you've picked a compatiblepartner you know what I mean,
sure.
And if you find yourselfover-investing effort into a
(18:00):
relationship just because youthink, oh, she's so pretty to
keep her around, I've got to doall these things to please her
and keep her happy, that is thatis?
That is behavior that will turnoff a woman Putting all that
effort in to try to keep herpleased and happy so that she
(18:21):
won't leave you.
It just reeks of desperationand it's like oof, this is not.
This is not what I signed upfor.
Dan (18:27):
Yeah, it's like oof this is not what I signed up for, Right
?
Yeah, I mean.
And then at that point you'vebasically just devalued yourself
and there's a lot less in itfor her at that point Correct.
Charles (18:40):
You've revealed yourself to be not by your own
behavior.
You revealed yourself to be notas valuable as she is in this
relationship equation valuableas she is in this relationship
equation, and everybody wants tofeel like their partner is as
valuable, or?
Dan (18:56):
more valuable than they are , or valuable in different ways,
right Like so.
They might bring a differentaspect of your life, of life, to
the table that you're not thebest at, right, and and so I?
I don't.
I don't look at it as somebodywho's more valuable than another
For me.
It's what's valuable for me andto bring at what I'm looking
for in my life, and a lot ofthose things are things that I'm
(19:18):
not, I may not be good at, orthings I want to cultivate, and
that's kind of what I look forin a partner, and I'm hoping
that the partner that I'm withalso looks at and says, hey,
listen, I'm, I'm, I'm good inthese things, but I'm not
necessarily as valuable.
Or as competent in these otherthings, and this is what Dan
brings to, to me.
Charles (19:40):
Yeah, maybe valuable is too big of a term to use in
this context.
I, I'm, I'm okay with that.
I would say I don't feel likeattractive is is the right word
either.
But but basically like, yeah,if you're communicating through
mostly your actions, not yourwords, something along the lines
of you're the prize and I'mlucky to have you and I'm I'm
(20:04):
going to work and do whatever Ihave to to please you so that
you'll stick around.
If, if that's picked up, thenthe other person is going to be
like, well, wait a second,they're, they're treating me
like I'm better than them.
What if I'm actually betterthan them?
I don't, I don't want to be inthat relationship where this
person's tree and healthy thanmy Butler to keep me happy.
Dan (20:22):
Right, like yeah, I think.
I think when you you startthrowing around words like value
and and better or whatever,it's kind of a blanket term and
it's kind of like, uh, it's,it's, uh, I don't think one
human is necessarily morevaluable or or better than
another.
Right, it's.
What kind of fit are they forme?
that's the way I look at itanyway, is is hey, are they in
(20:46):
terms of the things that I'veidentified that are important to
me and identified that areimportant to her?
How do we enhance or make theother person's life better in
that respect?
Charles (21:00):
Yes, but I mean I'm I can't.
Dan (21:03):
To me.
You're going oh, this person'svaluable, so it's like to me.
That would be saying, likesomebody in Hollywood is just
like because, because they'vebeen successful, they've been on
tv and movies and that'ssomething that's really I I hold
in high esteem, and they've gota lot of money and they've got
a lot of power, like that theyare a better person than I am.
Where they're more valuable tome, it doesn't like it doesn't
(21:27):
mean that they're more valuablethan me, like I don't look at it
that way, that's.
It's just they are better at atthe things that they are doing
and excelling at than I am, byfor sure.
But to say that they're justmore valuable, such a like a
generalization, I like I don't,I don't like that.
Charles (21:44):
Yeah, I, I see what you're saying, and this is
getting a bit convoluted, somost of it's going to get cut
out, all right.
Well, let's move on.
The point I want to make,though, is, even if you were
dating, let's say you're datinga woman, you have a partner, a
girlfriend, and she makes moremoney than you.
(22:05):
She's in better shape than you.
She is the most physicallyattractive woman you've ever
dated.
She's got a ton of charisma.
People like being around her,but when she interacts with you,
she's giving you the message ofDan, you're too good for me and
I'm going to sacrifice all ofmy values, all of my wants and
desires, just to keep you aroundand keep you happy.
(22:26):
Then, even though she checksoff all these other boxes,
you're going to look at her andbe like this this is not.
This is not as appealing as Iagree with that.
Dan (22:34):
Absolutely no.
I, I.
If that was the situation, Iwas in a hundred percent agree
with you.
Charles (22:39):
Yes, yeah, that's.
That's what I'm talking about.
Dan (22:41):
I guess, okay, so I guess maybe we should say it's like
how they interpret what they arebringing to the relationship.
So, yeah, so if, even if, likeyou, have the opinion that
they've got all these wonderfulthings about them, but their
mental, their mental approach ortheir state is that they don't
(23:02):
feel like they are and theydon't have, they don't have a
lot of like that sense ofself-worth and it's, it's
probably a little bit off ofwhat reality is, I agree, that
can absolutely.
Yeah, you don't want somebodywho really doesn't love
themselves.
I mean, that's the way I lookat it.
It's almost or doesn'trecognize or is so far off base
(23:26):
of what reality is in terms ofwho they are and the values that
they have and how good they are.
Yeah, that that can wear who,because, because it's like you
can't convince somebody tobelieve something about
themselves, right, right, likeyou can't force them to say, hey
, look, oh, you, you are awonderful person, you are
beautiful, and things like that.
If they don't believe it, it'svery difficult to, yeah, to get
(23:49):
them to get to see that by justtelling them or right, that's
that's, yeah, yeah, so I, I seethat so let's, let's turn it the
other way.
Charles (23:56):
Where, say it's?
It's the man that feels thatway about himself, and so he's
chasing this very attractivewoman.
He gets her in a relationship,but then, whenever she needs any
time space to herself she hasto travel for work or to see
family then you're gettinganxious, you're getting jealous,
you're getting suspicious.
Whenever she needs any timespace to herself, she has to
travel for work or to see family, Then you're getting anxious,
you're getting jealous, you'regetting suspicious.
You feel like I don't deserveto be in this relationship
anyway because I had to work sohard to get this.
(24:19):
This 10 out of 10 woman livingher life or dressing up for work
or whatever it is all thesethings become opportunities for
you to feel not good enough andjealous and anxious and all this
stuff.
So this, this is just I'msaying another reason why this
(24:40):
pursuit of this woman thatyou've put up on this pedestal
is going to destroy therelationship.
Because you're going to I mean,yeah, if you, if you get her by
acting like you're her biggestfan, you're the president of her
fan club, then you're going toalways be in that role for the
(25:00):
rest of your life.
And then you're going torealize oh, she's got other fans
too, and what if?
What if he's a bigger fan ofher than I am?
Or what if he acts like he is?
And then all all this anxietyjust wells up to the surface.
Dan (25:12):
Yeah, I mean, I think at a base level, that is a level of
you're violating somebody'strust in you and there I think
you're, you're shaking thesecurity because they are
operating from this state ofmind, of reality, of what
reality is this?
Who I am as a person, this isthe values that I have.
And then if you were behavingso far differently, either above
(25:35):
that or below that, at thatpoint then I know if I was in,
if I was in the other is, if shewas on the other foot and I was
in a situation, I would be likewhat, what are you seeing here?
Like where, what?
What world are you living in?
Like this is, this is my like,this is what I think of myself
and this is and I can understandthat there being a little bit
(25:55):
of a difference from what Ibelieve about myself and
somebody else.
But if it is so radicallydifferent where you become
insanely jealous over thingsthat you don't need to be
insanely jealous of, or youyou're completely ignoring
things that you know bad, reallyreally bad drug habit, it's not
that bad, whatever it is Right,I think, at that point then you
really kind of it's.
(26:16):
It's one of those things whereyou are being or behaving as if
you are somebody different thanwhat their impression of
themselves are, and if it's sofar off, I think that can cause
some tension in terms of this isthe reality I'm living in, this
is the reality you're living in, and it's not matching up and I
don't know how to.
How do you, how do you bridgethat gap?
Charles (26:36):
Yeah, I don't think that you, I don't think that you
can expect to bridge itrealistically.
So he goes in the whole list ofhey, here are the 20 plus
reasons why you shouldn't pursuehot women.
You can read that if you wantto.
He also goes into the analogyof treating women like they're
essentially celebrities or moviestars because of how they look
is going to, it's going toaffect the way that you behave
(27:00):
around them, because you'retrying to get something out of
your interactions more than justa fun, happy, healthy
relationship Like if you're, ifyou're around her.
Or he gives a example of georgeclooney, lebron james if you're
jay-z, if you're hanging outwith them because you want the
excitement and the status ofbeing around them, then you're
(27:20):
probably not going to be a verygood friend and you're not
actually going to get the, thestatus that you, that you were
hoping for, just because you'rein their orbit.
So yeah, yeah, yeah.
He does a pretty good job of ofmaking that case here.
And then he, he goes down thelist of and now here are the
things that are a little bitmore important and that you
should find more valuable,especially if you're looking for
(27:42):
a long-term relationship.
Is she happy, generous,affectionate, smart, fun,
playful, disciplined, passionate, honest?
Does she have a good sense ofhumor?
Does she get along with people?
Does she communicate well?
Does she take care of herself?
Does she have a fun, healthyattitude about sex?
Does she work through herproblems?
And these are all things thatyou can't tell about a person by
(28:04):
just looking at them.
And then he gets into thedifference between approach
versus attraction, which is oneof the most valuable pieces I
got out of this book, which theidea of cold approaching women.
Is you going up to a girl,giving her some line to open the
conversation and eventuallywanting to get her information
(28:27):
or a date with her based solelyon what you know, which is how
she looks?
Dan (28:34):
Yeah, yeah, and he mentioned that.
Yeah, like that's the worstreason to walk across the room
to talk to somebody.
Right, it's just purely based onon attraction and when he, when
he said it that way, it wasjust like and it really it
opened up a little bit of moreunderstanding of of where he was
coming from for me anyway andreally kind of help put things
(28:56):
in perspective where, yeah, thatmakes no sense whatsoever.
Right, like, why would you dothat?
There are other people who areprobably attracted to you and
just you got to kind of open upyour eyes and see, see what's
kind of he says, like in yourorbit, right in your, in your
immediate area, there areprobably women that are that are
(29:18):
putting themselves closer toyou, even physically, or
speaking to you, that you maybehave considered just as being
friendly to you, and maybethere's actually some more there
, but that you've got more incommon with right and those.
Those are the things that youshould be exploring and looking
into and not not chasingsomething, but rather looking at
(29:41):
what is in front of you and andlooking at those open doors
that he talks about.
Charles (29:47):
Yeah, and I mean cause.
There's a dynamic there andpower dynamics factor into
really every relationship wehave where there are you're.
You're in relationships withpeople because you hopefully
want to bring value to them andthey have value that you want as
well, and ideally, whether it'sprofessional or personal
(30:07):
relationships, you're bothbringing things to the table
that will benefit each other andyou're not looking to only get
or only give, but to have somesort of an equal part with the
other person, where just walkingup and introducing yourself and
trying to get to know somebodyjust based on their physical
(30:29):
appearance which a lot of thatis completely out of their
control it's just based on youknow what their parents happen
to pass down to them, that doesgive somebody.
There's a power imbalance there.
What you say I mean just beinglike I'm going to take my time
and my effort and put it intothis person based solely on the
(30:49):
way they look.
Yeah, it feels like just thattaking that action on you in and
of itself, you're putting themon a pedestal.
You're walking into anunbalanced equation just because
you've started it.
You've started the interactiononly based on how they look.
Dan (31:04):
Yeah, and I think a lot of people do that who aren't real
social, right, and so, like Ithink he, one of the nice things
is he's really advocating forpeople to build your own life
and being more social.
So if you are out there and outand about, you're going to have
a lot more opportunities forother people to signal to you
and approach you, and it's goingto be less of a more of like a
(31:27):
military strike where you'renever going to leave in the
house and so when you do, youhave to like, engage and chase
somebody, because if you don't,you're never going to end up
meeting anybody, because younever put yourself out there,
you never put yourself out andyou're never being social,
you're not out, you're notchanging your route and all
(31:48):
these other things that he talksabout, right, so I think that
really goes to show it.
So it's, it's a long, it's it'sa slower process, right, and
but it's most likely going to bemuch more rewarding and it's
going to work out much moreoften than you just going and
striking and trying to chasesomeone down just based on the
way they look, because you onlyleave the house, like a couple
(32:09):
times a week.
Charles (32:11):
Yeah, and imagine, I mean, there's no other area of
your life where you would thinkit was a good idea to say, okay,
I'm never going to practicethis skill, except when the
stakes are yeah, are yeah, thestakes are super, duper high,
like, right, I'm going to.
I mean, imagine you, you getinto one of those, you win one
of those contests where it'slike, oh, if you make this shot
(32:32):
from half court, you, you win ahundred thousand dollars.
And you're like, I feel like,if I, if I practice for it, then
I won't really be ready to stepup when the pressure's on.
So I'm just not going topractice any half court shots
until the night.
I'm on the floor of thebasketball Great analogy, yeah,
and so I'll just, I'll just takemy shot at that point because I
(32:53):
don't want to, I don't want todeprive myself of that high
pressure situation that I willsurely rise to.
It's like, no, you probablywon't.
So spend your time practicingsocial interactions in
situations where it's not sohigh pressure.
We've talked about that in thelast few weeks quite a bit.
Make eye contact with people atthe mall, say hello to people,
(33:14):
say good morning if you're outon a walk and just get used to
doing that, and so when you doencounter a woman who is
actually giving you indicationsthat she might be interested in
having a conversation with youby the way she's looking, her
body language then it will bemuch easier for you to start
that conversation with someonewho's already shown some
interest than just going incompletely cold from scratch
(33:37):
doing something that you'venever done before.
Dan (33:39):
Yeah.
Charles (33:40):
Yep.
So the the analogy he alwaysuses is don't don't start
banging on doors that may or maynot be deadbolted.
You don't really know whenthere are other plenty of doors
out there.
If you know, if you know whatto look for, that are they've
already been swung open for you.
All you have to do is walkthrough them.
And that's where he makes thedistinction of attraction versus
(34:04):
approach.
Let go of the idea that youhave to cold approach people and
just learn to recognize thesigns that someone's already
attracted to you, and then gostart a nice conversation with
somebody who's alreadycommunicated to you that they'd
like you to come up to them andstart talking and and in the
meantime, while you're waitingfor that attraction to develop
and happen, go do something likewhatever it is.
Dan (34:26):
distract yourself by going to a coffee shop or looking for
some new clothes or somethingelse, going to a bookstore,
reading some books, things likethat, to build yourself up.
So it's like a win-winsituation.
At that point, right, you'reworking on yourself and you're
distracting yourself from justsitting around waiting for
something to happen, right?
Charles (34:48):
Yeah, and we'll get into this more in the next
chapter.
But something else he talksabout is build an attractive
lifestyle for yourself, and whenyou do that, then it won't be
surprising that people areattracted to you and that
they're giving off signals thatthey may be interested in
getting to know you.
(35:08):
But if you are not buildingthat attractive lifestyle we'll
talk about exactly what thatmeans.
If you're not doing that, thenyou yourself won't believe that
people have a reason to beattracted to you and you will
part of that paradigm effect,that confirmation bias.
Even when women are looking atyou and smiling or holding eye
(35:32):
contact, laughing at your jokes,looking your way, standing
close to you, when they're doingall these things that are
typically signs of attraction,you won't believe that that
could possibly be going on, soyou'll just miss it constantly
and not act on it.
Dan (35:46):
Yep, yep.
Charles (35:49):
All right, let's see.
Yeah, his his point is also thatin in his own experience, he's
found that when he focused onbuilding up his own lifestyle to
be more attractive, he startedto have more younger, attractive
(36:09):
women putting themselves in hisorbit so that he had the
opportunity to startconversations with them, and
they were often very excited toget to know him and, in some
cases, be intimate with him.
So that's that's Dr Glover'sexperience as he shares it
personally, and and I would saythe same thing when I got
(36:32):
divorced quite a few years agoand started focusing on living
the kind of life that I wantedand doing the things that I
found fun working out more,going for lots of hikes, going
on trips by solo travel Istarted getting more attention
(36:52):
for women than I ever did beforeI got married, when I just
didn't know what I was doing,didn't know what I wanted out of
life, didn't know really how tohave fun other than sit around
and play video games and BS withmy friends.
When I started doing more funthings that I found more
meaningful and more fulfillingin my life, then I started
getting more attention fromeither the women I already knew
(37:15):
or even women that I was justgetting to know through social
circles or dating apps orwhatever.
Dan (37:21):
Yeah, I believe it.
A lot of it just comes, itfeeds back into you.
If you're feeling morefulfilled, you're going to carry
yourself differently, you'regoing to speak differently and
people will pick up on that.
That level of happiness,fulfillment, confidence, and
that's you're going to beattracted to, that.
Charles (37:40):
Yeah, because I mean building a life that you enjoy
is I mean, it should be theultimate goal for for everybody,
and men in particular, asthat's who this book's audience
is.
You don't want to try to createsome sort of a cookie cutter
life just because you want otherpeople to be attracted to it,
(38:01):
like, ooh, what, what are 26year old women into now?
Let me, let me build a lifearound the things that I think
they'll like, and then thenthey'll, they'll come running.
It's like that's that will onlywork on the most uninteresting,
shallow people that you canfind, where building a life that
you legitimately enjoy and thatyou can get meaning out of is
(38:24):
going to be the thing thatattracts other people with
similar interests.
And if you have similarinterests and similar values,
then there's a potential forlong-term relationship that
brings value to both of you.
But if you're, if you're justtrying to do, oh, I hear women
like Taylor Swift, for example,so I'm going to pretend like I
like Taylor Swift, we Swifties,we, we can find out, we can, we
(38:47):
can nose out the fakers quickenough.
So sniff out those Absolutely,yeah, so don't even try.
Don't have those Swifties.
Sniff out the fake Swifties,yeah, so don't even try that,
because the real ones, we, we,we know, I mean when yeah, you
guys do have a certain stink,that's for sure.
That's right, it's.
(39:13):
It's bath and body works, soaps, deodorants, yeah.
So I'm just saying don't, don'ttry to manipulate people into
being attracted to your life bybuilding a fake life that you
think people will be attractedto.
Dan (39:25):
Yeah, it's only going to last so long.
You're going to attract peoplewho are really into that thing,
and then they're going to, likeyou said, they'll smell your out
and you're going to bemiserable the whole time
pretending to see it.
Charles (39:35):
The stuff you're not into, yeah, if you're not really
in, not really in sucks, yeah,don't, don't do that.
So, all right, we'll stop therefor today and then the next
chapter is going to be create alifestyle that attracts women.
Naturally, we'll talk aboutwhat you can bring to the table
and make a great life thatchallenges your self-limiting
(39:58):
beliefs.
And, yeah, let's you have justa fun, exciting life that will
attract all kinds of people toit Friends, dating, partners.
He'll again mention how hiscareer takes off when he starts
focusing on himself.
Such a brat I'm kidding, notcompletely.
(40:20):
I mean there are some partswhere where he gets in his story
where it's like, okay, there'sone section where he's like in
this, in this chapter we coveredtoday, it's like don't chase
young hot women.
But just so you know, I getyoung, I get young hot women all
the time.
I mean there's, there's alittle bit of that in his, in
(40:43):
his.
It is in his chapter like, okay, no, good, good for you.
And then, yeah, so all right,we'll talk to you next time, dan
.
Thanks very much.
Yep, see you bye.
Thank you so much for stickingto the end and listening to the
entire episode, dan, and Icertainly appreciate it again,
check our website,mindfullymasculinecom, where you
(41:03):
can find full audio and videoepisodes, as well as anything
else we decide to share.
Thanks, talk to you next time.
If your criteria for meeting a long-term partner
especially is just howattractive they are, okay, well
then, how good of a partner willeither going to decide, okay,
well, she's beautiful, but she'snot right for these other
(00:27):
reasons, and then you're goingto have to break up and that's
going to be rough on both of you.
It's better to really figureout what it is that you want,
how long you want it for, andmake decisions that line up with
those goals.
Welcome to the MindfullyMasculine Podcast.
This is Charles.
In this episode, Dan and I willcontinue discussing Part 1 of
Dating Essentials for Men by DrRobert Glover.
(00:48):
We're going to hit Chapter 8,where Dr Glover gives reasons
not to date hot women, as hedefines them.
So we will talk aboutunderstanding the hot woman myth
, the trap of status-drivendating, self-worth and
relationship power dynamics,attraction versus approach, the
Trap of Status-Driven Dating,self-worth and Relationship
Power Dynamics, attraction vsApproach, and we'll talk about
(01:08):
building an attractive life, notjust a pickup strategy.
Check out our website,mindfullymasculinecom, where you
can find full audio and videoepisodes, as well as any other
info we find worth sharing.
Enjoy the show.
Dan (01:22):
Good morning Charles.
How are you, man, I'm doing allright.
Charles (01:24):
How are you man?
I'm doing all right.
How are you?
Dan (01:26):
I'm doing well.
I like that artwork behind youthere.
I think that's the first timeI've seen that?
Charles (01:33):
Yeah, I can't remember if I've done an episode from my
camper since I hung that up.
It's a nice little.
Is that a collage?
No, it's a maybe it's a collage.
I don't know a collage.
No, it's a.
Maybe it's a collage.
I don't know.
It's not a mosaic, but it'syeah.
Six, six pieces of cutouts byHenri Matisse, who's one of my
favorite artists.
Oh nice, not originals, justprints.
Dan (01:54):
Oh, they're not the originals.
You didn't shrink down six ofthem and put them in there.
Oh, that's good.
It's good to know you destroy apart of history, yeah.
Charles (02:03):
I didn't.
I didn't buy the originals andthen wet them and then put them
in the dryer to shrink them andthen put them on my wall in my,
in my RV.
Dan (02:12):
Oh, you just do that in my clothes.
Charles (02:13):
Exactly so.
It's been been a week I had toget rid of my my, my lovely
little Z3 convertible that Ienjoyed so much for a year and a
half, turned out needed somethings to get fixed and I had to
do the math to decide whetherit was worth fixing them or not,
(02:35):
and it was not not even close.
Dan (02:37):
So you just sent them up to a farm in New York.
Charles (02:40):
I thought about that.
I thought about that exactly.
Upstate, new York, yes, as Igot rid of it.
Yeah, where where parents telltheir kids that the that the
family dog had to go.
Yeah, I really did think aboutthat exact word, imagery as I
was getting rid of it, likegotta, gotta send it upstate.
So you didn't tell me how thatall went down, so you took it to
(03:01):
CarMax or what'd you do get acarmax and the one of the issues
I had with it was a coolantleak and it was smoking like a
cheech and chong movie as Ipulled up the carmax.
So I was like this, this isn't,this isn't going to be good for
the, for the price that theyoffer me.
But here I am, the last yeah.
And so, yeah, I got I.
(03:23):
I got.
It was in the hundreds what Igot for it, not in the thousands
.
But you know it's a 27 year oldcar, 200,000 miles and
essentially on fire, so I washappy to take whatever they were
willing to give me for it.
Dan (03:38):
Yeah.
And so then I mean I know, yeah, you had the rental car, and
then how did you make it over tothe dealership, like what you
know went down to that.
Charles (03:48):
Before I drove to, I told you there's a.
I found a dealership.
I decided what kind of car Iwanted.
I was looking for a VolkswagenEos, a hard top convertible and
I'd found a dealership over inthe Largo area, which is near
Clearwater here by Tampa, andthey specialize in those.
And I thought, okay, well, I'mgoing to drive all the way over
(04:08):
to Largo, find whatever theyhave at this place and take the
best option that they haveavailable and then figure out
how to get the rental car backto Orlando's airport and then
get a bus, train,horse-drawnrawn carriage,
whatever I had to do to get backto the tampa area.
(04:29):
But you didn't take yourhelicopter.
No range, yeah, maybe I should.
Maybe I should get into thoselittle individual helicopters
like like bond used inthunderball uh, the probably
cheaper to to run than 27 yearold cars.
But but anyway, before I lefttown, I was like you know what,
let me open up Facebookmarketplace and see if there may
(04:50):
be something in Orlando thatthat fits the bill before I
engage in this insane crossstate travel.
And yeah, I found one rightclose to the airport.
So I was like, oh, that's good,if it works out, I could just
buy it there, then drive therental car back to the airport
and Uber to pick up my car andthen drive it back to your place
, and that's exactly whathappened I that's awesome found
(05:12):
a pretty good deal needed car,got a couple little things.
I mean any.
Any car I buy, as old as I liketo buy, is going to need a new
radio.
It's going to need little bellsand whistles and yeah, but the
the guys willing to negotiate Imade a list of all the things
that was going to take to get itroad ready or not really road
ready.
It was already road ready toget it to my level of comfort
(05:34):
that I require.
And I said, all right, I I'mgoing to have to spend a
thousand dollars on this, soI'll give you a thousand less
than you're asking.
And he was like, okay, and thenwe did it Nice.
Dan (05:46):
Any idea how long you had for sale for?
Charles (05:49):
13 days.
Oh, wow, okay All right, sothat's great that he was so so
flexible, so quickly.
Yeah, while he was selling ithis, his wife was getting to
drive it back and forth to work.
So she I don't know how happyshe was that it was selling, but
that's a problem, not mine.
You mean that's his problem?
Yeah, that's their problem, notmy problem.
(06:11):
Exactly, exactly.
Well, that's great.
New radio got delivered lastnight by Amazon.
I'm still waiting on a coupleof the accessories and then the
plan is tonight after work, whenI get home, I'm going to pop
out the old factory radio andput in the new Apple CarPlay
7-inch screen situation.
Because that's, I mean, that'sthe first thing I do.
(06:33):
Whenever I get a new used car,the first thing I do is put in a
decent radio.
Yeah, very nice.
Going to do that tonight.
And drove with the top downquite a bit yesterday.
Stopped, I decided to treatmyself to a shake shack lunch on
the way out of orlando.
Haven't been there in monthsand months and so I stopped and
got a burger and, yeah, it's,it's fun having.
(06:56):
Uh, I I had an issue with myold car for a while where one of
the power window on thepassenger side wouldn't go down
and so I would not ride with thetop down with a window stuck up
.
That looks insane so I wasn'twilling to do that.
But no such problem anymorewith the new one.
So I'm driving with the topdown quite a bit, I mean.
(07:16):
The other thing I really likeis the sound system in my z3 was
never really capable of makingthe podcast or the music I was
listening to loud enough where Icould actually hear and enjoy
it while the top was down.
But this new one's got it's gotspeakers all over the place and
they're pretty loud, so I can Ican ride at the top down and
listen to music.
Dan (07:36):
Yeah, it's a big difference .
Charles (07:38):
Yeah, definitely so.
Anyway, Great Congratulations.
Thanks, I got some.
I got a lot of travel coming upin the month of March.
We're recording this onFebruary 27th and I've got at
least one road trip up to theAtlanta area and I'll enjoy
making that with the new wheels.
It's also nice to.
I've got a car that's 11 yearsnewer and 105,000 miles newer,
(08:03):
so I can drive with much moreconfidence than than the last
one.
Yeah, but I would say so Istill.
I still am pretty addicted tothis idea of buying fun, cheap
cars for cash, not having tohave a monthly payment and then
driving it for a few years, andthen, when it gives up the ghost
, then I have.
I have a stressful three daysevery couple of years to find a
(08:25):
new car, but the rest of thetime is great.
I don't have to worry abouthigh insurance or car payments
or debt on a car or anythinglike that, and I get to drive
something that's fun.
Dan (08:35):
Hey, most of us have stressful few days every week,
so every couple of years?
No, no problem, sign me up.
Charles (08:45):
There you go.
Yeah, I'll, I'll take that planas long as I can.
All right, so let's get intochapter eight in dating
essentials for men.
Here's where Dr Glover listsout the many, many reasons why
we should not pursue what hedefines as hot women, and I
think we alluded to this at theend of the last episode, where
and I think we alluded to thisat the end of the last episode
(09:06):
where the word hot has a lot ofa lot of baggage, a lot of
connotation, you say you sitdown 10 guys and say tell me
what makes a hot woman.
You'll get 10 different answers, basically, so that that's
included with what Dr Glover iscalling a hot woman.
I think I mentioned last weekthat I thought when he says hot,
what he really means is vain.
Dan (09:29):
Yeah.
Charles (09:29):
But really, I mean, I think what he's really talking
about is a woman whose physicalbeauty or physical appearance
makes her an outlier in a waythat she feels the need to treat
her own appearance quitedifferently than most women, and
the men she encounters alsofind it necessary to treat her
(09:50):
differently than they wouldtreat most women.
Dan (09:53):
And she allows that to happen.
That's, I think, the key heretoo, like what you said her
being vain, because you canstill be really care about your
appearance, but then have a lotof other wonderful qualities
that are still going on and thatyou focus on, and it's not like
you don't let the looks takethe driver's seat here in terms
(10:15):
of your day-to-day life and yourinteraction.
Charles (10:18):
So I think what you had said is very accurate here in
terms of somebody who's vain ontop of having an outlier of of
looks, so to speak yeah, I think, I think, really what he's,
what he's alluding to, issomeone who is, yeah, really
investing time, effort, money inremaining at this very high
(10:45):
level of physical appearancebecause of what they feel that
it brings them.
And so if, if, if they're really, if they're really investing
heavily in maintaining I've,I've got to be a top 10%, top 5%
woman when it comes to physicalappearance.
That that is a choice and thatis a life that, you know, many
(11:08):
attractive women do choose forthemselves, but I can't imagine
that being around it is is a lotof fun.
I I've never dated a woman that, when he goes down the list of
what makes these women the waythat they are, I, yeah, I'm glad
to say I've never dated one ofthem who was it was that that
into cultivating her appearanceall the time and then had some
(11:33):
of the negative baggage thatwe're going to get into as a
result of that.
Dan (11:36):
Yeah, I, I, I can say the same that I've been.
I've been fairly lucky withwith that.
I mean I I've been fairly luckywith with that, I mean I I've
gotten, I've dated some peoplewho are close to that but not
entirely would would check off.
All of these was a 20 differentcriteria of why dating a hot
woman is not a good idea.
Charles (11:55):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
One weird thing where he's likeat the beginning of the chapter
, he's like when all the booksthat I've read on pickup and
seduction, no guy has everreally come across and said what
, what's the advantage of datingsuch a, such an attractive
(12:15):
woman?
And it's like okay, well, inyour whole chapter on
diaphragmic breathing you never,never, laid out why do people,
why do people need to breatheanyway?
It doesn't.
Nobody ever explained to me why.
Why do people need to breatheanyway?
Nobody ever explained to me whydo people want to breathe.
It's like okay, well, yeah, Imean I feel like the elephant in
the room is men often want todate the most attractive women
(12:39):
because of the status that itbrings them.
I mean, we learned way backwhen we, when we read 12 rules
for life by Jordan Peterson andhe talked about the lobsters and
how lobsters have a serotoninsystem very similar to humans,
where, as humans we are, we areconstantly checking our status,
subconsciously really, againstother people to try to figure
(13:01):
out, okay, where do we fit inthe pecking order, where are we
in the hierarchy?
And the same women.
The same reason that guys wantto date very attractive women is
the same reason they want todrive nice cars, they want to
have nice houses, they want tohave prestigious jobs.
They want to wear a Rolex or auh uh Omar Pegay on their wrist.
I mean, yeah it.
(13:21):
You feel better about yourselfwhen you think I've got
something other people want.
Dan (13:25):
they can't get it, but I did, and I think a lot of that
is what drives men to have theattitude of I want to date this
really insane outlier beauty,because I because of how people
will think about me if I do- Ithink the key to think about,
though, is if, if that's whyyou're you want to date somebody
at that level, it's difficultthen to expect other qualities
(13:51):
to necessarily be there Right,also make you feel, yeah, like
loved and appreciated and and bebe a good companion, like it's.
(14:13):
It's kind of it's notmulti-dimensional, right, and
it's it's a very transactionaltype of relationship at that
point, when you were reallyisolating it down to that just
one, that one aspect right.
So that's where I think you cankind of get in trouble is if
you're expecting more out of,out of the relationship that
you're building based on thatthat one, that one aspect.
Charles (14:36):
Yeah, I, I certainly agree with that, and yeah,
there's there's no guaranteethat.
I would say quite, quite theopposite is probably true, that
the if your criteria for meetinga long-term partner, especially
is just how attractive they are, okay, well then, how?
How good of a partner will theybe?
(14:58):
How good of a mother will theybe?
If you're willing to say, well,I'm going to ignore all those
things just to get this highlyattractive woman, then, okay,
well, at some point you'reeither going to decide, okay,
well, she's beautiful, but she'snot right for these other
reasons, and then you're goingto have to break up, and that's
going to be rough on both of you.
(15:19):
It's better to really figureout what it is that you want,
how long you want it for, andmake decisions that that line up
with those goals.
I mean, if, if you just want tohave the prettiest girl on your
arm for a party or somethinglike that, then okay, maybe,
maybe, that's fine.
It's not a decision I would make, though, because I being being
(15:41):
stuck next to somebody who'sreally good looking but we can't
have a fun conversation for thewhole night, that's, that's.
That's not a, that's not math.
That works for me.
Yeah, he brings us up, and Ithink the reason he wants to
talk us off of the ledge of oh,I've got a date, the most
(16:02):
attractive woman I can possiblyfind Part of it is because the
second half of that equation isand if I can't, then I just
won't date.
And he says a lot of sociallyanxious men, a lot of bad daters
, make that decision.
Like, if I can't date a womanwho is so beautiful that she
(16:24):
just knocks everybody's socksoff wherever she goes, and I
just won't date anybody at all,I'm not going to put any effort
into into preparing myself forthe dating marketplace, unless I
can.
I can get a 10 out of 10 everytime, and so it's.
It gives you that, that pass orthat excuse to say, well, it's
easier to just check out than itis to accept anything less than
(16:46):
perfection.
Dan (16:47):
Yeah, and it's real easy then to kind of blame the world
at that point instead of lookingat yourself to make the changes
that are uncomfortable.
Charles (16:54):
Yeah, and so, toward the bottom of this page that I'm
on right now, he he does go ina little bit detail, a little
bit more detail on hisdefinition.
He says my definition of a hotwoman is a woman who needs to be
noticed and validated for herphysical appearance.
This is not the same as havingnatural attractiveness or
wanting to look nice.
So, yeah, based on thatdefinition, I think he and I are
mostly aligned with what he'stalking about.
(17:16):
A woman needs to be noticed andvalidated for her physical
appearance.
Um, it it is.
It is a fact that you shoulddate people, that you are
attracted to both men and women.
But just be aware that ifyou're going for somebody who is
well outside of your age rangeand even well outside of your
(17:37):
own level of physicalattractiveness, um, whether it's
because you feel like you haveto or not, you're, you're going
to invest more work in keepingthat relationship than should be
necessary.
If you've picked a compatiblepartner you know what I mean,
sure.
And if you find yourselfover-investing effort into a
(18:00):
relationship just because youthink, oh, she's so pretty to
keep her around, I've got to doall these things to please her
and keep her happy, that is thatis?
That is behavior that will turnoff a woman Putting all that
effort in to try to keep herpleased and happy so that she
(18:21):
won't leave you.
It just reeks of desperationand it's like oof, this is not.
This is not what I signed upfor.
Dan (18:27):
Yeah, it's like oof this is not what I signed up for, Right
?
Yeah, I mean.
And then at that point you'vebasically just devalued yourself
and there's a lot less in itfor her at that point Correct.
Charles (18:40):
You've revealed yourself to be not by your own
behavior.
You revealed yourself to be notas valuable as she is in this
relationship equation valuableas she is in this relationship
equation, and everybody wants tofeel like their partner is as
valuable, or?
Dan (18:56):
more valuable than they are , or valuable in different ways,
right Like so.
They might bring a differentaspect of your life, of life, to
the table that you're not thebest at, right, and and so I?
I don't.
I don't look at it as somebodywho's more valuable than another
For me.
It's what's valuable for me andto bring at what I'm looking
for in my life, and a lot ofthose things are things that I'm
(19:18):
not, I may not be good at, orthings I want to cultivate, and
that's kind of what I look forin a partner, and I'm hoping
that the partner that I'm withalso looks at and says, hey,
listen, I'm, I'm, I'm good inthese things, but I'm not
necessarily as valuable.
Or as competent in these otherthings, and this is what Dan
brings to, to me.
Charles (19:40):
Yeah, maybe valuable is too big of a term to use in
this context.
I, I'm, I'm okay with that.
I would say I don't feel likeattractive is is the right word
either.
But but basically like, yeah,if you're communicating through
mostly your actions, not yourwords, something along the lines
of you're the prize and I'mlucky to have you and I'm I'm
(20:04):
going to work and do whatever Ihave to to please you so that
you'll stick around.
If, if that's picked up, thenthe other person is going to be
like, well, wait a second,they're, they're treating me
like I'm better than them.
What if I'm actually betterthan them?
I don't, I don't want to be inthat relationship where this
person's tree and healthy thanmy Butler to keep me happy.
Dan (20:22):
Right, like yeah, I think.
I think when you you startthrowing around words like value
and and better or whatever,it's kind of a blanket term and
it's kind of like, uh, it's,it's, uh, I don't think one
human is necessarily morevaluable or or better than
another.
Right, it's.
What kind of fit are they forme?
that's the way I look at itanyway, is is hey, are they in
(20:46):
terms of the things that I'veidentified that are important to
me and identified that areimportant to her?
How do we enhance or make theother person's life better in
that respect?
Charles (21:00):
Yes, but I mean I'm I can't.
Dan (21:03):
To me.
You're going oh, this person'svaluable, so it's like to me.
That would be saying, likesomebody in Hollywood is just
like because, because they'vebeen successful, they've been on
tv and movies and that'ssomething that's really I I hold
in high esteem, and they've gota lot of money and they've got
a lot of power, like that theyare a better person than I am.
Where they're more valuable tome, it doesn't like it doesn't
(21:27):
mean that they're more valuablethan me, like I don't look at it
that way, that's.
It's just they are better at atthe things that they are doing
and excelling at than I am, byfor sure.
But to say that they're justmore valuable, such a like a
generalization, I like I don't,I don't like that.
Charles (21:44):
Yeah, I, I see what you're saying, and this is
getting a bit convoluted, somost of it's going to get cut
out, all right.
Well, let's move on.
The point I want to make,though, is, even if you were
dating, let's say you're datinga woman, you have a partner, a
girlfriend, and she makes moremoney than you.
(22:05):
She's in better shape than you.
She is the most physicallyattractive woman you've ever
dated.
She's got a ton of charisma.
People like being around her,but when she interacts with you,
she's giving you the message ofDan, you're too good for me and
I'm going to sacrifice all ofmy values, all of my wants and
desires, just to keep you aroundand keep you happy.
(22:26):
Then, even though she checksoff all these other boxes,
you're going to look at her andbe like this this is not.
This is not as appealing as Iagree with that.
Dan (22:34):
Absolutely no.
I, I.
If that was the situation, Iwas in a hundred percent agree
with you.
Charles (22:39):
Yes, yeah, that's.
That's what I'm talking about.
Dan (22:41):
I guess, okay, so I guess maybe we should say it's like
how they interpret what they arebringing to the relationship.
So, yeah, so if, even if, likeyou, have the opinion that
they've got all these wonderfulthings about them, but their
mental, their mental approach ortheir state is that they don't
(23:02):
feel like they are and theydon't have, they don't have a
lot of like that sense ofself-worth and it's, it's
probably a little bit off ofwhat reality is, I agree, that
can absolutely.
Yeah, you don't want somebodywho really doesn't love
themselves.
I mean, that's the way I lookat it.
It's almost or doesn'trecognize or is so far off base
(23:26):
of what reality is in terms ofwho they are and the values that
they have and how good they are.
Yeah, that that can wear who,because, because it's like you
can't convince somebody tobelieve something about
themselves, right, right, likeyou can't force them to say, hey
, look, oh, you, you are awonderful person, you are
beautiful, and things like that.
If they don't believe it, it'svery difficult to, yeah, to get
(23:49):
them to get to see that by justtelling them or right, that's
that's, yeah, yeah, so I, I seethat so let's, let's turn it the
other way.
Charles (23:56):
Where, say it's?
It's the man that feels thatway about himself, and so he's
chasing this very attractivewoman.
He gets her in a relationship,but then, whenever she needs any
time space to herself she hasto travel for work or to see
family then you're gettinganxious, you're getting jealous,
you're getting suspicious.
Whenever she needs any timespace to herself, she has to
travel for work or to see family, Then you're getting anxious,
you're getting jealous, you'regetting suspicious.
You feel like I don't deserveto be in this relationship
anyway because I had to work sohard to get this.
(24:19):
This 10 out of 10 woman livingher life or dressing up for work
or whatever it is all thesethings become opportunities for
you to feel not good enough andjealous and anxious and all this
stuff.
So this, this is just I'msaying another reason why this
(24:40):
pursuit of this woman thatyou've put up on this pedestal
is going to destroy therelationship.
Because you're going to I mean,yeah, if you, if you get her by
acting like you're her biggestfan, you're the president of her
fan club, then you're going toalways be in that role for the
(25:00):
rest of your life.
And then you're going torealize oh, she's got other fans
too, and what if?
What if he's a bigger fan ofher than I am?
Or what if he acts like he is?
And then all all this anxietyjust wells up to the surface.
Dan (25:12):
Yeah, I mean, I think at a base level, that is a level of
you're violating somebody'strust in you and there I think
you're, you're shaking thesecurity because they are
operating from this state ofmind, of reality, of what
reality is this?
Who I am as a person, this isthe values that I have.
And then if you were behavingso far differently, either above
(25:35):
that or below that, at thatpoint then I know if I was in,
if I was in the other is, if shewas on the other foot and I was
in a situation, I would be likewhat, what are you seeing here?
Like where, what?
What world are you living in?
Like this is, this is my like,this is what I think of myself
and this is and I can understandthat there being a little bit
(25:55):
of a difference from what Ibelieve about myself and
somebody else.
But if it is so radicallydifferent where you become
insanely jealous over thingsthat you don't need to be
insanely jealous of, or youyou're completely ignoring
things that you know bad, reallyreally bad drug habit, it's not
that bad, whatever it is Right,I think, at that point then you
really kind of it's.
(26:16):
It's one of those things whereyou are being or behaving as if
you are somebody different thanwhat their impression of
themselves are, and if it's sofar off, I think that can cause
some tension in terms of this isthe reality I'm living in, this
is the reality you're living in, and it's not matching up and I
don't know how to.
How do you, how do you bridgethat gap?
Charles (26:36):
Yeah, I don't think that you, I don't think that you
can expect to bridge itrealistically.
So he goes in the whole list ofhey, here are the 20 plus
reasons why you shouldn't pursuehot women.
You can read that if you wantto.
He also goes into the analogyof treating women like they're
essentially celebrities or moviestars because of how they look
is going to, it's going toaffect the way that you behave
(27:00):
around them, because you'retrying to get something out of
your interactions more than justa fun, happy, healthy
relationship Like if you're, ifyou're around her.
Or he gives a example of georgeclooney, lebron james if you're
jay-z, if you're hanging outwith them because you want the
excitement and the status ofbeing around them, then you're
(27:20):
probably not going to be a verygood friend and you're not
actually going to get the, thestatus that you, that you were
hoping for, just because you'rein their orbit.
So yeah, yeah, yeah.
He does a pretty good job of ofmaking that case here.
And then he, he goes down thelist of and now here are the
things that are a little bitmore important and that you
should find more valuable,especially if you're looking for
(27:42):
a long-term relationship.
Is she happy, generous,affectionate, smart, fun,
playful, disciplined, passionate, honest?
Does she have a good sense ofhumor?
Does she get along with people?
Does she communicate well?
Does she take care of herself?
Does she have a fun, healthyattitude about sex?
Does she work through herproblems?
And these are all things thatyou can't tell about a person by
(28:04):
just looking at them.
And then he gets into thedifference between approach
versus attraction, which is oneof the most valuable pieces I
got out of this book, which theidea of cold approaching women.
Is you going up to a girl,giving her some line to open the
conversation and eventuallywanting to get her information
(28:27):
or a date with her based solelyon what you know, which is how
she looks?
Dan (28:34):
Yeah, yeah, and he mentioned that.
Yeah, like that's the worstreason to walk across the room
to talk to somebody.
Right, it's just purely based onon attraction and when he, when
he said it that way, it wasjust like and it really it
opened up a little bit of moreunderstanding of of where he was
coming from for me anyway andreally kind of help put things
(28:56):
in perspective where, yeah, thatmakes no sense whatsoever.
Right, like, why would you dothat?
There are other people who areprobably attracted to you and
just you got to kind of open upyour eyes and see, see what's
kind of he says, like in yourorbit, right in your, in your
immediate area, there areprobably women that are that are
(29:18):
putting themselves closer toyou, even physically, or
speaking to you, that you maybehave considered just as being
friendly to you, and maybethere's actually some more there
, but that you've got more incommon with right and those.
Those are the things that youshould be exploring and looking
into and not not chasingsomething, but rather looking at
(29:41):
what is in front of you and andlooking at those open doors
that he talks about.
Charles (29:47):
Yeah, and I mean cause.
There's a dynamic there andpower dynamics factor into
really every relationship wehave where there are you're.
You're in relationships withpeople because you hopefully
want to bring value to them andthey have value that you want as
well, and ideally, whether it'sprofessional or personal
(30:07):
relationships, you're bothbringing things to the table
that will benefit each other andyou're not looking to only get
or only give, but to have somesort of an equal part with the
other person, where just walkingup and introducing yourself and
trying to get to know somebodyjust based on their physical
(30:29):
appearance which a lot of thatis completely out of their
control it's just based on youknow what their parents happen
to pass down to them, that doesgive somebody.
There's a power imbalance there.
What you say I mean just beinglike I'm going to take my time
and my effort and put it intothis person based solely on the
(30:49):
way they look.
Yeah, it feels like just thattaking that action on you in and
of itself, you're putting themon a pedestal.
You're walking into anunbalanced equation just because
you've started it.
You've started the interactiononly based on how they look.
Dan (31:04):
Yeah, and I think a lot of people do that who aren't real
social, right, and so, like Ithink he, one of the nice things
is he's really advocating forpeople to build your own life
and being more social.
So if you are out there and outand about, you're going to have
a lot more opportunities forother people to signal to you
and approach you, and it's goingto be less of a more of like a
(31:27):
military strike where you'renever going to leave in the
house and so when you do, youhave to like, engage and chase
somebody, because if you don't,you're never going to end up
meeting anybody, because younever put yourself out there,
you never put yourself out andyou're never being social,
you're not out, you're notchanging your route and all
(31:48):
these other things that he talksabout, right, so I think that
really goes to show it.
So it's, it's a long, it's it'sa slower process, right, and
but it's most likely going to bemuch more rewarding and it's
going to work out much moreoften than you just going and
striking and trying to chasesomeone down just based on the
way they look, because you onlyleave the house, like a couple
(32:09):
times a week.
Charles (32:11):
Yeah, and imagine, I mean, there's no other area of
your life where you would thinkit was a good idea to say, okay,
I'm never going to practicethis skill, except when the
stakes are yeah, are yeah, thestakes are super, duper high,
like, right, I'm going to.
I mean, imagine you, you getinto one of those, you win one
of those contests where it'slike, oh, if you make this shot
(32:32):
from half court, you, you win ahundred thousand dollars.
And you're like, I feel like,if I, if I practice for it, then
I won't really be ready to stepup when the pressure's on.
So I'm just not going topractice any half court shots
until the night.
I'm on the floor of thebasketball Great analogy, yeah,
and so I'll just, I'll just takemy shot at that point because I
(32:53):
don't want to, I don't want todeprive myself of that high
pressure situation that I willsurely rise to.
It's like, no, you probablywon't.
So spend your time practicingsocial interactions in
situations where it's not sohigh pressure.
We've talked about that in thelast few weeks quite a bit.
Make eye contact with people atthe mall, say hello to people,
(33:14):
say good morning if you're outon a walk and just get used to
doing that, and so when you doencounter a woman who is
actually giving you indicationsthat she might be interested in
having a conversation with youby the way she's looking, her
body language then it will bemuch easier for you to start
that conversation with someonewho's already shown some
interest than just going incompletely cold from scratch
(33:37):
doing something that you'venever done before.
Dan (33:39):
Yeah.
Charles (33:40):
Yep.
So the the analogy he alwaysuses is don't don't start
banging on doors that may or maynot be deadbolted.
You don't really know whenthere are other plenty of doors
out there.
If you know, if you know whatto look for, that are they've
already been swung open for you.
All you have to do is walkthrough them.
And that's where he makes thedistinction of attraction versus
(34:04):
approach.
Let go of the idea that youhave to cold approach people and
just learn to recognize thesigns that someone's already
attracted to you, and then gostart a nice conversation with
somebody who's alreadycommunicated to you that they'd
like you to come up to them andstart talking and and in the
meantime, while you're waitingfor that attraction to develop
and happen, go do something likewhatever it is.
Dan (34:26):
distract yourself by going to a coffee shop or looking for
some new clothes or somethingelse, going to a bookstore,
reading some books, things likethat, to build yourself up.
So it's like a win-winsituation.
At that point, right, you'reworking on yourself and you're
distracting yourself from justsitting around waiting for
something to happen, right?
Charles (34:48):
Yeah, and we'll get into this more in the next
chapter.
But something else he talksabout is build an attractive
lifestyle for yourself, and whenyou do that, then it won't be
surprising that people areattracted to you and that
they're giving off signals thatthey may be interested in
getting to know you.
(35:08):
But if you are not buildingthat attractive lifestyle we'll
talk about exactly what thatmeans.
If you're not doing that, thenyou yourself won't believe that
people have a reason to beattracted to you and you will
part of that paradigm effect,that confirmation bias.
Even when women are looking atyou and smiling or holding eye
(35:32):
contact, laughing at your jokes,looking your way, standing
close to you, when they're doingall these things that are
typically signs of attraction,you won't believe that that
could possibly be going on, soyou'll just miss it constantly
and not act on it.
Dan (35:46):
Yep, yep.
Charles (35:49):
All right, let's see.
Yeah, his his point is also thatin in his own experience, he's
found that when he focused onbuilding up his own lifestyle to
be more attractive, he startedto have more younger, attractive
(36:09):
women putting themselves in hisorbit so that he had the
opportunity to startconversations with them, and
they were often very excited toget to know him and, in some
cases, be intimate with him.
So that's that's Dr Glover'sexperience as he shares it
personally, and and I would saythe same thing when I got
(36:32):
divorced quite a few years agoand started focusing on living
the kind of life that I wantedand doing the things that I
found fun working out more,going for lots of hikes, going
on trips by solo travel Istarted getting more attention
(36:52):
for women than I ever did beforeI got married, when I just
didn't know what I was doing,didn't know what I wanted out of
life, didn't know really how tohave fun other than sit around
and play video games and BS withmy friends.
When I started doing more funthings that I found more
meaningful and more fulfillingin my life, then I started
getting more attention fromeither the women I already knew
(37:15):
or even women that I was justgetting to know through social
circles or dating apps orwhatever.
Dan (37:21):
Yeah, I believe it.
A lot of it just comes, itfeeds back into you.
If you're feeling morefulfilled, you're going to carry
yourself differently, you'regoing to speak differently and
people will pick up on that.
That level of happiness,fulfillment, confidence, and
that's you're going to beattracted to, that.
Charles (37:40):
Yeah, because I mean building a life that you enjoy
is I mean, it should be theultimate goal for for everybody,
and men in particular, asthat's who this book's audience
is.
You don't want to try to createsome sort of a cookie cutter
life just because you want otherpeople to be attracted to it,
(38:01):
like, ooh, what, what are 26year old women into now?
Let me, let me build a lifearound the things that I think
they'll like, and then thenthey'll, they'll come running.
It's like that's that will onlywork on the most uninteresting,
shallow people that you canfind, where building a life that
you legitimately enjoy and thatyou can get meaning out of is
(38:24):
going to be the thing thatattracts other people with
similar interests.
And if you have similarinterests and similar values,
then there's a potential forlong-term relationship that
brings value to both of you.
But if you're, if you're justtrying to do, oh, I hear women
like Taylor Swift, for example,so I'm going to pretend like I
like Taylor Swift, we Swifties,we, we can find out, we can, we
(38:47):
can nose out the fakers quickenough.
So sniff out those Absolutely,yeah, so don't even try.
Don't have those Swifties.
Sniff out the fake Swifties,yeah, so don't even try that,
because the real ones, we, we,we know, I mean when yeah, you
guys do have a certain stink,that's for sure.
That's right, it's.
(39:13):
It's bath and body works, soaps, deodorants, yeah.
So I'm just saying don't, don'ttry to manipulate people into
being attracted to your life bybuilding a fake life that you
think people will be attractedto.
Dan (39:25):
Yeah, it's only going to last so long.
You're going to attract peoplewho are really into that thing,
and then they're going to, likeyou said, they'll smell your out
and you're going to bemiserable the whole time
pretending to see it.
Charles (39:35):
The stuff you're not into, yeah, if you're not really
in, not really in sucks, yeah,don't, don't do that.
So, all right, we'll stop therefor today and then the next
chapter is going to be create alifestyle that attracts women.
Naturally, we'll talk aboutwhat you can bring to the table
and make a great life thatchallenges your self-limiting
(39:58):
beliefs.
And, yeah, let's you have justa fun, exciting life that will
attract all kinds of people toit Friends, dating, partners.
He'll again mention how hiscareer takes off when he starts
focusing on himself.
Such a brat I'm kidding, notcompletely.
(40:20):
I mean there are some partswhere where he gets in his story
where it's like, okay, there'sone section where he's like in
this, in this chapter we coveredtoday, it's like don't chase
young hot women.
But just so you know, I getyoung, I get young hot women all
the time.
I mean there's, there's alittle bit of that in his, in
(40:43):
his.
It is in his chapter like, okay, no, good, good for you.
And then, yeah, so all right,we'll talk to you next time, dan
.
Thanks very much.
Yep, see you bye.
Thank you so much for stickingto the end and listening to the
entire episode, dan, and Icertainly appreciate it again,
check our website,mindfullymasculinecom, where you
(41:03):
can find full audio and videoepisodes, as well as anything
else we decide to share.
Thanks, talk to you next time.
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