May 12, 2025 • 49 mins
Forget paradise—these men brought their baggage. Charles and Dan break down Timothy Ratliff’s fast-unraveling world, where wealth might not shield him from family fallout (or federal charges). Saxon proves being nakedly honest can just mean being nakedly weird, while Lockie navigates spirituality, sexuality, and sibling sabotage—awkwardly. Rick tries meditation, but mostly finds more reasons to be cynical, especially toward the woman who loves him. Meanwhile, Guy’s romantic pitch skips way too many steps, showing exactly why nice guys finish lunch alone.
Join Charles and Dan as they unpack masculinity’s most uncomfortable luggage: failed fathers, misguided sons, and the friction when money can't buy emotional IQ. Sunscreen won't protect these characters from facing themselves—especially when their biggest problems lie beneath their linen shirts and luxury facades.
Pull up a pool chair and listen at your own emotional risk.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dan (00:00):
nothing comes from nothing, right.
And then there's like almostlike a standoff, like where like
he's just like set in his waysand you shoot.
You see the the two extremes ofpessimism and optimism optimism
from her pessimism.
Charles (00:13):
And then the scene closes out where they're just
staring at each other andthey're not saying anything yeah
, not, and not just I mean not,not just pessimism, right to the
point I'd say nihilism, wherethis guy and it's like you
wonder, you wonder what his lifeoutside of the resort must look
like.
I mean, when you feel that wayabout yourself and you feel that
way about the world.
Hey everyone, Charles, here inthis episode of the mindfully
(00:37):
masculine podcast, Dan and Iding into season three, episode
two of the white Lotus andepisode we're calling bad Dads
and Broken Sons.
We're talking about whathappens when masculine identity
is built on money, status orcontrol and what it looks like
when those things start to fall.
Apart From Timothy Ratliff'sunraveling self-image, to Rick's
(01:00):
brooding nihilism in a Thaimeditation hut, to a lot of
weird energy between brotherswho maybe need better boundaries
we, to a lot of weird energybetween brothers who maybe need
better boundaries We've got alot to unpack.
If you're watching the WhiteLotus and wondering what it's
really saying about men,masculinity and modern identity,
you're in the right place.
And if you want full audio andvideo episodes plus bonus
content, anything else we feellike putting out into the world
(01:21):
head over tomindfullymasculinecom, let's get
into it out into the world headover to mindfullymasculinecom.
Dan (01:25):
Let's get into it.
Good morning.
Charles (01:26):
How are you, charles?
I'm well, dan, thank you.
I'm a little chilly, hence theouterwear this morning.
It is a little chilly thismorning.
I fear it's probably our worstcool spell that we're going to
have.
If I say worst, I mean last,our last cool spell before
Florida summer kicks in and I'mmiserable and complaining for
months and months.
Florida summer kicks in and I'mmiserable and complaining for
months and months.
Dan (01:46):
I don't know.
This week it looked like it'sgonna be.
It's still gonna be pretty,pretty mild that'd be nice.
Charles (01:51):
A nice cool easter time of year would be would be
lovely, but I I've been trainedto not expect it, so we'll see.
So we're going to talk aboutepisode two of season three of
white lotus, which dan and Iboth re-watched very recently.
We're recording this onthursday, april the 10th.
The finale happened on sunday,which I have seen.
(02:13):
Dan has not yet seen.
So I will work hard not to I'mnot gonna spoil anything past
episode two.
You better not to the best ofmy ability.
I'm gonna be upset, but thefinale was extremely well done,
I found like good art.
It made me feel a lot of thingsOkay, and so I really
appreciate the way I was sayingin our last episode I don't know
(02:34):
how he's going to tie all thisstuff together.
I was going to say ISO, that's achallenge.
Pulled it off though.
Well done.
I really appreciated the workthat he did.
I'd be referring to mike white,the series creator.
He did.
Yeah, it was.
It was phenomenal.
Definitely there were things Iliked, things I didn't like, but
it was still well done.
It wasn't like I don't like thisbecause he didn't do it good.
(02:56):
It was like I don't like thisbecause of what he's doing to
like either the good things he'sdoing to characters I don't
like or the bad things he'sdoing to characters I do like he
definitely was pulling on thestrings and okay, phenomenal,
really, really enjoyed it.
Can't, can't wait to discuss itwith you, both on the show and
off the show, once you've had achance to watch it.
But that guy is a he's anamazing filmmaker.
(03:18):
I really I like the way andwe'll talk about in this episode
but the way he he just sets upthese archetypes where it's like
, okay, I know who that guy is,I know what that guy is and I
know what to expect from him.
Yeah, and you get that.
But then he also is able to putin little things that you
weren't expecting in a way thatdoes not feel inauthentic to to
(03:42):
who he's established thecharacter to be okay and so so
it's a natural progression ortransition but with but still
with surprises.
Yeah, or it's like timothyratliff is who.
I thought timothy ratliff wasthe whole time, but then okay so
it's not like a sharp veer tothe left or whatever, which is
what I feel.
Come on, I am like hate whenshows did you?
Dan (04:04):
yeah, like we're hiding up everybody has an epiphany right,
exactly.
And and now they're transformedright where.
Charles (04:10):
Yeah, it doesn't really happen that way on this show.
All right, I I reallyappreciate.
So let's talk about, we'll gowith the ratliff family first.
So timothy, the dad in episodetwo, what we see from him, and
again we're going to spoil,we're going to say what happens
in this episode.
So if you haven't seen it yet,stop listening, watch episode
two and then come back.
We go a little bit deeper intowhat seems to be unspooling as
(04:38):
far as his life, hisprofessional life, goes.
He talks to his office, findsout that there's another
reporter from another majornewspaper trying to talk to him,
which is never, never good.
I mean, that doesn't usuallyhappen for good reasons.
That happens for not greatreasons.
And then he finally is able tomake contact with his previous
(04:59):
business partner.
The two, him and this other guy, went in on this, either
created a fund or somethingtogether Kenny, kenny, yeah, and
kenny was voiced by, uh, shortround from temple of doom, oh my
god, who we also know fromeverything, everywhere all at
once yeah, yeah, wasn't hegoonies?
he was at goonies as well yeahwhat's?
What's his name?
Dan (05:20):
I need to look it up data, wasn't he data and goonies?
Charles (05:22):
I have have not seen Goonies since.
Dan (05:25):
Okay.
Charles (05:26):
Yeah, it's like it came out, I think he was yeah, I
think he was known as data.
Let me see.
So I don't remember much aboutit.
Dan (05:33):
Oh my God, I'm definitely not remembering.
Maybe I'm mixing him up withStar Trek, but I'm pretty sure
his name, or his name, his nameor his nickname.
Now we'll.
We'll clean this up in post yes, it was.
Charles (05:51):
It was data.
Oh, my god, look at that oncein a while my memory works.
He hi, he hi.
Kwan is the actor's name.
Dan (05:54):
Yeah, so he, I did not know that was okay yeah, it's
interesting what they but don'tsay too much about, because they
haven't shown him yet.
For the ones that I've seen,they haven't shown him at all.
Charles (06:02):
They never show him, and him and professor scott
gallay, who we talk aboutfrequently, have only been voice
actors on season three of WhiteLotus.
Okay, in fact, in this episodeI mean that's not really much of
a spoiler Timothy is on thephone trying to get a lawyer on
the phone.
Like I need a lawyer right now.
Dan (06:22):
Yeah.
Charles (06:30):
The lawyer he ends up talking to is voiced by
professor scott galloway from.
He's got a few podcasts that Ilike listen to.
He speaks a lot aboutmasculinity and the crisis of
young men and all this stuff.
And, yeah, he's.
I'm often sharing some of hisclips on our social media for
the podcast.
And, yeah, he plays.
He's one of the voice actorsthat's just on the other side of
the phone that you never see.
And so is Kehoe Kwan, he, yeah.
So, anyway, him and Ratliffpartnered together to, I believe
(06:51):
, start some sort of a fund, andthen Ratliff mentions a couple
things about it.
It was apparently involved inbribery and money laundering
which you know is not good, andalso only made him 10 million
dollars.
That really put things inperspective.
I can't believe I got myselfinto this trouble for only 10
(07:12):
million dollars so you saidthey're doing well.
Dan (07:14):
But then when he drops that bomb, you're like oh okay, now
I really understand how perhapsisolated or like that they, that
family, is reality?
Charles (07:25):
Do they mention where they live, like what part of the
U S?
They live in North Carolina.
They live in North Carolina.
I know they went to schoolthere, but I didn't know.
Dan (07:34):
I think they still live.
Charles (07:35):
Okay, yeah, so it's possible, it's a whole thing.
They could be worth a billiondollars.
I mean when, when you talk thatway about $10 million, like he
could be like one of thesebillion-dollar fund managers
that you know fastest growinggrass in America right now is
the billionaire class, oh my God, yeah.
Then year to year, from prettymuch every year, from COVID,
(07:55):
like the number of billionairesin our country is just kind of
hockey stick growth, as theylike to say.
Dan (08:01):
Interesting.
Charles (08:02):
Yeah, I'd like to know what industries those are from I
think I, I suspect it's mostlyfinancial management, people who
, people who are in the financeindustry, I don't, I don't know
that it's manufacturingentrepreneurs or yeah, or you
tech, it might be tech, but I, Isuspect it's wealth management.
Okay, but we'll, yeah, I can, Ican check, yeah, I'm curious.
(08:23):
So they, they could be worththat, that family could, he
could be writing them to beworth that much.
But certainly I'm trying tothink how much money I'd have to
say, I'd have to have to say Ionly made 10 million off this.
Yeah, at least 500 million, Iwould think, probably.
I think I'd have to be worthhalf a billion to scoff at 10
million.
Dan (08:43):
now that's the thing too is like all right, how much you're
worth versus what you'rebringing in every year.
That probably would be a biggerindicator for me, not
necessarily what you got stockedaway, but like what you're
bringing in.
And anyway, regardless, it's alot of money for him to go get
upset.
Charles (09:00):
Like this was not worth it.
Yeah, I wasted my time and so,yeah, he's acting like the noose
is starting to tighten andyou're seeing him behave that
way with both the staff and hisfamily.
His family he's kind of just.
He's not getting as sharp withhis family.
He's more like a littledisconnected, preoccupied.
That seems to be ramping up,but when it comes to his
(09:22):
interactions with the staff,he's willing to get short and
rude with them yeah, especiallythe.
Dan (09:27):
I remember the assistant's name, or basically she comes
around for the phone.
Charles (09:31):
So I was timing exactly , yeah and yeah, something like
you'd be a lot less stressedyeah, if you gave me your phone
I'd be less stressed.
You stopped, that's good, yeah,and you can tell it's.
It's really yeah, starting to.
And then he's complaining aboutthe, the time change and how
he's on day is night, night isdown, exactly, yeah, yeah, so so
I mean listen, I, I heard along you knew.
Dan (09:54):
You knew this going in, you're going to freaking the
other side of the world.
It shouldn't be.
Uh, it normally wouldn't bethat big of a deal, but
considering the stress that he'sunder right, that's where
you're kind of like oh my god,the time zone's driving me nuts
like really and in in classicmaladaptive behavior.
Charles (10:09):
When he starts feeling the pressure on it, he's willing
to, in very passive ways, startblaming his daughter for it,
like this is your fault.
We're here because of yourthesis and your your.
This inconvenience is yourfault, like not the fact that I
engaged in dishonest, illegalbusiness practices X number of
years ago Five years ago, Ithink it was.
(10:31):
No, that's the problem here isthat I can't get people on the
phone.
Dan (10:36):
Well, okay, so from that episode it wasn't clear to me
whether it was in the past orstill was occurring, because it
sounded like it was still kindof happening along fund might be
open.
Charles (10:46):
That's true.
He claimed he hadn't talked tothis kenny guy in four or five
years right, but I think thatwas a fucking lie.
It might have been yeah, itmight have been a lie.
Or that may have been when theythe fund was, the fund's
inception might have been fiveyears ago.
And then look, I mean, if you,if you start a fund and the
basis is bribery and moneylaundering, that's the, the
underlying structure of the, youmay not want to have a lot of
(11:09):
interaction with the guy thatyou started it with.
Yeah, so I maybe I got theimpression that this was
something they did a while agookay, but you're right, I also
did.
Dan (11:18):
Yeah, it does feel like, so I didn't believe probably an
ongoing thing right when thenewspaper from the new york
times was asking about kenny,he's like oh, I haven't talked
to him in so many years.
I know he's in brunei.
It just sounded.
He came across as lying to me,like so that's.
Initially I was just like, andthen for him to like get right
on the phone with kenny.
It took some time to get him onthe phone right but but at the
(11:38):
same time it seemed like therewas a familiarity there based on
the conversation, where itsounded like they talk they
hadn't been four years sincethey had a last conversation.
Charles (11:46):
Yeah, you might be right about I don't know, but
they, they left the kind ofthey've been, I think, for
people to figure it out.
And kenny's not doing.
Well, kenny's, I mean thistimothy's threatening him like
if you sell me out, I'm gonnakill you, and kenny's like I'm
gonna kill myself, and then the.
And then he's like you do itlike he's to kiss himself.
He's like yeah, you better, kindof thing which is not all the
(12:09):
mentally healthy people I knoware not encouraging others to
kill themselves, so that'sobviously maladaptive,
maladjusted behavior as well.
When life throws you problems,encouraging other people to kill
themselves is not usually thebest way to solve those problems
, but it is a way to show howfalling apart this guy is and
(12:33):
and, frankly, how not resilienthe is.
I I think it's not the factthat he might go to prison that,
I think, is freaking timothyratliff out.
I think it's the number ofsteps down his life would take
if he ended up there.
You know what I'm saying andalso he's so his.
Dan (12:52):
He clearly cares more about his occupation and his job than
, I think, his family and otherthings of life.
So that's his world and he, ifhe gets convicted, there's never
.
He's not going back, he's notgoing to be able to be back and
and do what he's doing thefinance space anymore.
Charles (13:06):
Yeah either exactly.
And, yeah, his world is hisidentity, his status.
I think his family is some ofthat, but I think most of it is
is his wealth, his success, hisbusiness, and so, yeah, I think
he's feeling like okay, this andthe impression, his reputation,
his wife, like, talked about it.
Dan (13:23):
It's just like you did it, like you, you made all the money
, you've got an awesome family,you've accomplished everything
kind of thing and so like.
Charles (13:32):
And I I hear all the time from people what a good man
you are, and so all that likeyeah, is going to be completely
shattered yeah, it really doescome down to identity and who
you think you are and, uh, andthat seems to be the challenge,
the stumbling point for a lot ofthe guys on this show let's
talk about Saxon Saxon'scontinuing to act weird in this
(13:55):
episode in different ways.
I mean number one if you'rebunking with your little brother
, are you sleeping completelynaked?
Dan (14:02):
No, I'm not no.
Charles (14:05):
I mean, you and I have shared multiple hotel rooms and
neither one of us has strippedall the way down and just, oh, I
just sleep.
I just sleep naked.
This is just what I do.
Dan (14:10):
So now this is your problem too yeah, I kept my socks on,
so you know, yeah, exactly and Inever took off the fedora.
Charles (14:17):
Yeah, no, that that's freak, that's very, that's very.
You're sharing a room with yourbrother and sleep in a in a
warm tropical environment,especially where toss it and
turn it and throw in the sheetsoff yourself in your sleep is
highly likely.
So that's again weird stuffabout nudity and sexuality with
(14:37):
this family.
And yeah, it just.
He has an older sibling.
Don't sleep completely nakedwith your as a younger sibling
don't sleep, it just gives meweird vibes.
Yeah, yeah.
And then let's see what elsedid he do?
That was weird.
There was something else thatwe saw oh, joking about not
getting a happy ending for hismassage.
(14:59):
Well, that joke in front of hiswhole family.
Yeah, and mom has been fit likelike a little too much.
Let it be a function of herbeing on drugs so that that
could be a factor.
Her being a lorazepam addict,right, might be prompting those
weird, or her weird, herweirdness around sexuality and
(15:21):
possible previous trauma couldbe what?
Right, like her lorazepamaddiction could be like chicken
or the egg.
We don't.
Dan (15:26):
Yeah, it's kind of like it's almost like she'd never
heard that joke before, right,everybody.
I mean massage and happy endingstuff, and it was just like
yeah, maybe the part of maybethat's to kind of reflect how
weird she is about sex ingeneral, like that's kind of new
to her.
Charles (15:42):
Let that, that oh, you should be like a happy ending or
or still so fresh, not new tome but I'm gonna have this
exaggerated reaction to it toact like it is what?
this is crazy like, yeah, it wasdefinitely weird.
So, um, so, that was weird.
Weird.
But him joking about the happyending, weird sleeping naked.
And then also the.
I like how he kind of looksdown on drug use.
(16:05):
Meanwhile the little sisterpoints out that he's popping at
her all constantly and he's likethat's not drug use, right I do
to get shit done right.
Yeah, it's, it's.
It is interesting how I meanboth loraz caffeine.
Dan (16:17):
Caffeine can be considered a drug too.
I mean, it's all.
Charles (16:19):
It all does change your state yeah, but but yeah, when
it comes to pharmaceuticals inparticular, it is interesting
how I mean lorazepam issomething she gets from her
doctor, adderall something hegets from a doctor?
Almost certainly yeah, and wedo kind of look at uppers and
downers a little bit differentlyin our society, where at least
(16:41):
maybe that's the people who useuppers look down on the people
who use downers, and I'll betthe people who use downers look
I don't think you can generalizelike that, but Well, he was
using uppers and he wasdefinitely looking.
He was speaking against his momusing lorazepam.
Okay, and I mean I think we all, I think people do.
(17:02):
I think you can generalize thatwhen people land on a drug of
choice, if they're going to lookdown at all, they're not going
to look down on their own drugof choice, they're going to look
down on the people that use theother stuff.
And I was getting that from.
Dan (17:16):
Saxon for sure.
Identity of somebody who workshard, gets stuff done, is active
.
Meanwhile he sees his mombasically fall asleep at the
table right, and so I thinkthere could be some judgment
related to the end result of thedrug that you're taking as well
, and then just saying, oh, I'mnot a drug user and maybe he's
(17:38):
thinking drugs are only stuffthat inhibits you and brings you
down.
Yeah right, so it's still.
Charles (17:44):
Yeah, you know it's I.
I look down on people who copewith life using a method other
than the method that I use,because the method that I use
that's just smart, that's a lifehack, that's the right way to
do to do life where the waythese other people do it is not
where I mean I and I do a littlebit of this myself too.
(18:04):
Whenever I've noticed recently,whenever I visit sort of bigger
cities and you walk around indowntown areas and what I've
been experiencing lately, it'slike everybody reeks of weed
everywhere I go in downtown bigcity areas and I kind of do like
, oh man, you can't, can't makeit through the day without
(18:25):
lighting up and smoking yourweed because you can't deal with
life.
Meanwhile, the people who arejust popping oxys they don't
smell like anything, so I haveno idea that they're up to the
same, essentially the same,behavior.
Or the people who are poppingAdderall.
Or the people who are usingalcohol at levels where they're
not like a homeless wino that'sstumbling around the place.
It's like everybody's doingsomething to cope with life and
(18:48):
it's like, well, the uh.
It's easy for me to look downon the people that do it in a
way where it's like oh, I canclearly tell you're doing this,
so therefore, me right, who areyou?
Dan (18:57):
I mean, but that's, that's human, that's human nature.
Yeah, yeah, part of you're partof my tribe, or you're not
right?
Charles (19:02):
yeah, it's kind of, but it's still.
Dan (19:04):
What kinds of things make me think that you're part of my
tribe?
Understand?
Are you like me or you?
Charles (19:07):
know you like yeah, are you like me, do you do the
things I do?
Or trying to say are yousomeone who's not like me and
does other things?
And so I try to.
When I have those thoughts, Itry to remind myself like okay,
you don't.
You don't know what their dealis, so chill out.
Dan (19:20):
I mean and you don't know what life would be like if they
didn't do those things Right.
How would things be Like?
Maybe this is actuallybenefiting them in some way.
Charles (19:28):
Right, Exactly I mean I .
Dan (19:30):
An alternative wouldn't be much worse.
Charles (19:31):
Yeah, they could just be a recreational weed user
without a lot of motivation andthey just like chilling all the
time and that might be theirdeal.
Or it's like oh, I'm actuallyon chemo, so I use this to stop
myself from being nauseous andbeing able to actually eat.
Dan (19:45):
Or like Rick.
It's not my business, but Right, or like Rick, it basically was
at a stress level of 80, toldthe meditation teacher and
that's when he was like, hey, Ineed some, but weed helps, right
.
So that makes him a little bitof a nicer person, yeah.
Charles (19:59):
Let's, let's jump into it, you know.
So I really his his interactionwith the meditation teacher,
which that was good, that firststep there's very, very like yes
, there's a lot going on there,and it felt a little bit like a
first therapy session too insome ways, mostly because of
what he was willing to disclose,which is interesting.
But the first thing that came tomind was her asking him how are
(20:22):
you feeling?
And his answer is I don't know.
Yeah, which is pretty commonfor people, for trauma survivors
.
They, they have difficultylabeling what they're feeling,
labeling their emotions, beingable to say this is what I'm
experiencing now, in the moment.
It's only it's only later, orif maybe not at all, that
(20:43):
they're able to actually put aname on what they were
experiencing.
So I found that was reallyinteresting.
Rick lacks the ability, at leastin this context, to say what
he's feeling and to label it,which is common for people that
survive trauma.
And he gets into specificallywhat trauma.
(21:03):
His mother was a drug addictand I guess she OD'd when, when
he was 10 and his father diedbefore he was born.
Yeah, murdered, oh.
Did he say murdered?
Yes, okay, so yeah, and there's.
It seems like there's usually acouple of ways.
People who have that backgroundcan go one of two ways.
(21:23):
In my experience either my lifeis garbage because of what I
missed out on, or essentiallywriting it off like everybody
has their thing.
This is mine, everything's fine, it's fine, it's not affecting
me, it's fine, yeah.
And he seems to be going downthe other road of yeah, I missed
out on some important stuff Ishould not have missed out on,
(21:46):
and, as a result, I mean hetalks about not having an
identity, yes, having nothinginside of him, right?
And so it's almost like Iempathize, admire and respect
someone who's willing to say myneeds were not met and, as
result, I'm in rough shape likeI.
(22:07):
I can appreciate that and I canrespect that, but it doesn't
seem like he has gone the nextstep of and, while that sucks,
now I have a responsibility todo something about it.
I, it doesn't feel like right,right, or he certainly, yeah,
and he's.
He's in Thailand on somebusiness that we don't know
(22:30):
exactly what it's about at thispoint, but it does seem like he.
He wants to figure out a way tosoothe this feeling, but we
don't know what that is.
And and he certainly, whateverhe's there to do, is
preoccupying him from puttinganything good into his
(22:51):
relationship with his girlfriend, because they are, I mean, she
really loves this guy and he'snot really giving her much to
work with at all.
Dan (23:02):
And she tries to get him constantly.
She's trying to get him out ofhis shell, get him to enjoy
something, and he's justmiserable the whole time.
And she's like oh, I met ChloeRight, the other woman there,
and we've got dinner plans withher, her boyfriend.
And he's like no, no, no, no,no, no, no.
And she goes yeah, we have somuch in common.
(23:24):
Like I'm young and fun, likeshe is, and and you're old and
and he's old and and he's bald,and you're going bald.
He's like I'm not going bald andshe's like okay, yeah, yeah but
that was right after, not rightafter, but I think was it this
episode of the episode beforethat they were talking about
lbh's losers, where basicallyold white guys, old bald white
(23:45):
guys, they considered lbh'slosers back home, and so was
that.
That was this early this seasonyeah, yeah, yeah and right and
and so it might have.
I thought it was in thatepisode.
It might may not have been mythe next one I thought it was
and the.
The ironic thing too was likeright after that scene they were
showing piper in the yoga classand, if you remember, there was
(24:09):
a guy that was standing infront of her like doing his
stretches.
He was an old, bald white guyand he kept like looking back at
her, like with these creepylooks, like every time he did a
move he'd like crane his neck tokind of give her the eye or
whatever, like way too much andit was just just this perpetual
message of creepy old walls,white guys throughout this, this
(24:30):
whole thing, and I felt likewhen chloe was not chloe,
chelsea was, chelsea is thatchelsea, are we right?
chelsea no, no, it is chelsearick's girlfriend.
Yeah, she was trying to get himto, I guess.
I felt like he was kind of likeat a fork in the road where,
like he wasn't quite bald yet,so it's like where, where you
have a choice now, because thatwas also right before he went to
(24:51):
see the meditation instructorand she was trying to get him to
go, and so she was like hey, Ithink this would be good for you
.
And basically it was like hey,you're about to go bald.
So you, you have a.
You have it's kind of almostlike a metaphorical fork in the
road.
You go down this path and becomethis creepy, old, bald white
guy, or you could kind of changeyour ways and maybe save your
hairline and your life a littlebit right yeah, and then I think
(25:14):
after that, that's when youwent to the meditation
instructor and what was reallyinteresting to me was that she
would say, hey, he basically,like she asked him, you know
something about his identity?
And he's like I don't have anidentity.
And she goes well.
Sometimes that can be, that canjust be a figment, basically,
of your imagination as well.
And he goes well if, if youdon't put any gas in the tank,
(25:37):
nothing's gonna start, car's notgonna start, nothing comes from
nothing, right?
And then there's like almostlike a standoff, like where,
like he's just like set in hisways and you shoot.
You see the, the two extremesof pessimism and optimism
optimism from her pessimism.
Charles (25:53):
And then the scene closes out where they're just
staring at each other andthey're not saying anything yeah
, not, and not just, I mean noteven, not just pessimism, right
to the point I'd say nihilism,where this guy and it's like you
wonder, you wonder what hislife outside of the resort must
look like.
I mean, when you feel that wayabout yourself and you feel that
way about the world, like what?
(26:14):
And?
And he alludes to this with thedinner with gary, where it's
like he I think he alludes insome way to gary's wealth and
the nice houses like so what?
What do you do?
He's like I'm retired, retiredfrom what?
All this and that?
And it's like what about you?
He's like yeah, this is that alot of a lot of people, a lot of
people around here who do thisand this and that yeah oh yeah,
(26:36):
you get the.
It's like these are two shadyguys.
It's almost like two predatorsrecognizing each other.
Like we're both.
Yep, we're both.
Not, that's exactly right, noton the up and up here we're both
, we're both, not that's exactlyright, Not on the up and up
here, where we're both not thekind of people you screw around
with and and it's interesting,where I mean Gary's the only
character, or Greg, as he was inprevious previous seasons he's
(26:58):
it's.
It's interesting that he's theonly like thread that's run
through the whole series.
Dan (27:02):
Well, the massage therapist too.
Oh yeah, that's fair, well.
Well, actually she didn't, shewasn't in the last one, that's
right.
Charles (27:07):
We didn't see her in italy.
Yeah, we saw her in one and wesaw her now but they kind of
brought her back, yeah, but yeah, gary greg, yeah, he's, he's
definitely bad news and herecognizes that rick is bad news
too and they it's like theythey're the only two people that
really see each other like thatget, okay, I, I know what's
(27:29):
going on here.
That was an interesting dynamicto me.
We we breezed over lachlan, butthere wasn't really much to
lachlan in this episode.
He's he's basically anopen-minded kid who's trying to
figure out who he is.
Dan (27:40):
I would say right, well, do you remember the scene?
This is this.
This is in this episode.
He's in the water with hissister.
Charles (27:47):
Oh, where he brings up Saxon's remark.
Dan (27:49):
And he's like, yeah, so he's.
So he went, he did a sensorydeprivation right.
And so she's like, oh, hey, howwas it?
Did you meditate?
He's like no, but I prayed.
And she's like oh.
And he's like, well, I don'treally feel anything.
And she's like, well, Idefinitely feel something.
And then he questions her andhe goes do you feel something
like an external presence?
(28:09):
Because you want to feelsomething, or is it really?
It's real?
And she just like cut him off.
So she was yeah, and then hekind of pokes back and he felt a
little attacked by that.
But what, right?
And then, but.
And then he, though, retaliatesalmost because she, that's true
, and what do you?
Charles (28:29):
think he was aggressive , wasn't he?
Oh, absolutely, he didn't pitchthat.
Dan (28:32):
He goes right and he goes Saxon doesn't think you've had
sex.
And she's like what the fuck?
And she's like why is he evenasking whatever?
And he goes well, well,whatever, he goes well, well.
And then, and so then lock, hekind of backs up because he sees
you really upset his sister andhe's like, oh well, he said it
because you were hot and likelike like trying to make it a
better was make it worse.
And she's like what the fuck?
(28:53):
Why is he talking?
Yeah, yeah and so.
And then they have a little bitmore conversation and then
saxon is so cool, I'm not saxon,lock, he's so clueless.
He goes, she's clearly upsetabout this.
They say something else, andthen we'll have you, we'll have
you.
And then she's like, oh my god.
And then she swims away, right,and I was just like that was,
and he's.
And then he's like, oh, fuck.
He's like, yeah, oh, I fuckedup.
(29:14):
Yeah, it's definitely he'sreally trying to figure himself
out and like how to have no thatsocial interaction that is
worth a packing.
Charles (29:20):
So yes, he, basically he, he went at her belief system
in a way that most people wouldfeel a little attacked about.
So that's a lack of socialawareness and intelligence on
his part, I would say.
And then his efforts to try tomake it better.
It wasn't just you would hopeat your best if you, if you
(29:41):
brought it up in that way andyou could tell you sort of
bristled somebody with, withwhat you were.
I didn't mean to get me tooffend you, didn't mean to
attach you my mistake, but he,it didn't seem like he had the
either the skills or wasn't ableto pick up on that's what
happened and just apologize andback off a little bit.
It's like let it change thesubject to something else.
Dan (30:01):
That's more pleasant, or so I don't know about that.
I'm thinking maybe he got upsetbecause he he didn't know how
to handle her being upset at him, and so he's just like.
He's like oh, she yelled at mebecause she made me feel stupid,
because it's real, now I'mgonna, now I'm gonna and I, and
now I'm gonna stick the knife ina little bit right.
(30:21):
Interesting because it's likewell saxon said, you haven't had
sex yet right, that'sinteresting.
Charles (30:26):
Yeah, we both definitely seen to try to get
back.
Dan (30:29):
We saw that differently and I think you're probably more
correct on it than I am, butyeah, that's that is interesting
, that, yeah, he, he probablyfelt a little shamed that I
didn't handle this interactionright, so now I've got to defend
myself by bringing her down tomy let's make her uncomfortable
too or or or more, I think mywhere my opinion is is he feels
(30:50):
then, less than her, like dumberthan her, because she's like,
of course it's real, like liketalking to him almost like a
child and so him feeling okay,well, I need to somehow raise my
status or bring her down,because I see that she's above
me when she said it's real andso maybe it's like I want to
(31:11):
bring her down a little bit.
Well, saxon says you haven'teven had sex yet, and then he
realized he overreached a littlebit and then it just like
snowballs badly from there.
I think that would be the way Iinterpret it.
Charles (31:23):
No, I think you're onto something there.
There's definitely definitelyand again, plus, the way this
family handles sexuality seemsto be a bit weird anyway, and so
, yeah, that seems like adangerous, dangerous area to
poke somebody when they'rethere's energy in that family
around sexuality and it seems tobe weird energy.
(31:43):
So, yeah, very like walkingover ground with with landmines
in it.
Like, how do you, how do youapproach this?
How do you bring it up in a waythat isn't going to set people
off?
And, yeah, I think I think lockI mean lock you may there may
be some trauma in his background, some in in his sister's, some
(32:04):
in his brother's, it's, it's alljust very, it strikes me as
this is off.
This isn't how normal, healthypeople in a family interact in
this area.
Dan (32:12):
And clearly he has.
He respects his older brotherquite a bit and kind of looks up
to him.
So I think maybe that'ssomething, maybe his older
brother might say something likethat bold and that, hey, you
haven't had sex Right.
So he was almost pretendinghe's almost trying to play him.
Yeah, yeah, which is a mistake.
Charles (32:31):
Clearly, yes, definitely, yeah, all right,
let's.
Let's go to a guy talking andand what we learned about him in
this episode so he what he asksmook to have lunch with them.
And I liked the way he did it,where he asked her what her
plans were and she said and hedidn't really.
(32:52):
I usually go with the girls,right, I usually go with the
girls.
And he didn't really ask.
He said have lunch with meinstead, yeah, which is good.
That's.
A good way to ask a girl outfor a date is to not ask but say
, but to tell, still doing it ina way where they have the
ability to say no, thank you, ifthey don't want to do it, but
(33:12):
it's well, she said why, andhe's like well, I want to talk
to you but he didn't say that Ididn't love.
okay, the, the idea of.
I mean anyhow, anything in thein the range of we need to talk
later is not.
That can be anxiety-inducing or, at the very least, put
expectations on someone likeokay, what's this going to be
(33:35):
about?
Right?
Not always in a positive way,yeah, and so I would not say I
need to talk to you as part of alunch invitation to somebody.
I think that's probably not thebest way to go.
I mean something along thelines of because I want to spend
some time with you or because Iwant to hang out with you, it
would be fun.
(33:55):
All strike me as better options.
I want to talk to you.
You know what I mean, yeah.
Dan (34:00):
Yeah.
Charles (34:02):
And so when they do have the lunch, he, yeah, he
gives her, he gives her a salespitch and he, he, and it's a
sales pitch that focuses on thefeatures, not the benefits as
well, where he basically istrying to talk her into going
straight to hey, we should betogether, yeah.
Dan (34:27):
Uh, because your brother's like me and what from the same
town or something right, yourfamilies know each other, or
something like that, right yeah?
Charles (34:31):
and the.
These are all legitimatereasons to be in a relationship
with someone, but when thatsomeone, when that girl
especially, is when she'sattracted to you and when she's
interested in you, she's goingto be telling herself these
reasons.
She doesn't need to hear itfrom you and it just I found it
(34:51):
cringy.
I found it cringy andineffective, based on my own
experiences.
What, what were your thoughtswhen he was giving her the pitch
?
Dan (34:58):
Oh, absolutely it was.
It was again.
It was putting the cart beforethe horse.
Charles (35:05):
I felt like, right, like you just said, basically
like there needs to be theattraction there, and then it's
like, okay, if we're gonna standa chance of moving forward and
building something meaningfultogether, right, those other
things then come into play atthat point correct, because he
he's one of the things we talkabout on this show constantly is
being over invested in a girlthat you're not in a
(35:26):
relationship with yet and actinglike you're over invested is is
a killer to attraction, romance, intrigue, all that stuff.
He's basically saying I haven'tbeen on a date with you, but
I'm already thinking we shoulddiscuss having a life together
and and her reaction is wehaven't even been on a date yet.
(35:47):
So the fact that he's evenconsidering her having this role
in his life without everactually going on a date with
her, it screams scarcity, itscreams overinvestment, it
screams inexperience.
Dan (36:04):
And fantasizing about this life together that hasn't
happened yet, great.
Or that she like, because he'salready on a different level,
he's thinking they're ready forthat.
And then what?
She laughs at him.
She basically is just likedon't be stupid idiot, don't be,
don't be stupid, just eat yourfood.
And he's, and he's, he's likeslowly, he wasn't even eating
(36:25):
the whole time.
That's what.
All, that's what it brought.
She even called him out on.
Yes, she's like why aren't youeating your food?
And because she was so nervousto talk to her about the whole
thing, so the whole thing thatthe whole interaction was was
not something attractive for forher.
And then that's when she's justlike all right, look, you just
put yourself in the friend zoneat this point, like don't be
(36:46):
stupid, let's just just eat,finish your lunch, and then
we'll go on from there therobbers.
Charles (36:53):
She is concerned for him and she talks about him
being brave and she's worriedabout him and stuff like that,
but which I think he immediatelyuses that concern for him to
(37:15):
erase the fact that she haswhether you want to call it
rejected him or justcommunicated a lack of romantic
interest.
He pretends like that all justgoes away because she's worried
about him after he gets bonksbonked in the head.
Yeah, like a girl can like you,like spending time with you,
care about you and not want youto have a concussion.
And that doesn't mean she wantsto be your girlfriend, right,
(37:38):
right, and it seems like that,really just kind of that was
lost on him, like I don't knowif it's because he's a little
bit of a, you know.
So how should he have acted?
Well, I mean number one it'snot our job to tell other people
, even fictional characters, howthey should behave, but if your
goal is to have the possibilityof a romantic relationship with
(38:02):
this girl, you should only askfor the next level of
interaction.
You shouldn't try to skiplevels.
And he was trying to skiplevels.
He was, he was trying to sellher on.
Here's why we should be acouple, when they hadn't even
gone on a date together.
So if the goal is if you thinkthe goal is to be in a couple
(38:22):
with this girl, then what youneed to do is offer her the next
step in your relationship,which is let's go on a date.
The next step in yourrelationship, which is let's go
on a date.
Don't ask her to be yourgirlfriend when you've never
been on a date before.
Ask her to go out with you on adate and then go on the date
with her and evaluate her as apossible fit for the kind of
(38:43):
person you would like to go on asecond date with.
But when you're I've seen thememe before people it's a person
like on a staircase wherethey're trying to go from step
one to step five, and they'relike taking a big, uncomfortable
step to step five.
And that's what he was doingwith his relationship with her.
He's trying to skip over stepstwo, three and four and just go
(39:05):
straight from one to five.
And it does look uncomfortableand awkward when you try to do
that.
Yeah, and it does lookuncomfortable and awkward when
you try to do that.
And so if that's the goal, ifthat's the end goal, if you
think she'd be a good match forthat, all the more reason to not
try to skip there, because it'sgoing to turn her off.
If you want her to get on boardwith thinking, hmm, step five
might be a place I want to bewith this guy, show her how good
(39:26):
of a time step two is and thatif step two goes well in a way
that both of you agree that itgoes well, then go to step three
and see how step three goes.
But yeah, he, he tried to skipto step five, which makes the
expectation and the pressure andthe likelihood of a fun,
exciting step two decreased byat least some measure yeah so
(39:47):
well said yeah.
And then he also made themistake of any pretty girl that
I'm attracted to.
If she's nice to me for anyreason, oh, it's because she,
she's interested in meromantically.
And that's another mistake thatinexperienced guys will make.
Like girls, girls can be niceto you and and like you and not
(40:08):
want you to have head trauma forreasons other than he's so
attractive, he's so sexy.
I wish, I wish I was in arelationship with him, but I
could.
The actor did a good job ofportraying okay, she's.
She's being nice to me after,yeah, this experience I had
where I got hit in the head, Igot pistol whipped.
Now she's being nice to me.
You, you're saying there's achance?
(40:29):
Yep, yeah.
And that's a mistake on hispart.
Mm-hmm.
Dan (40:33):
Yeah, but she does.
So that's the thing, though shedoesn't ever like when she
shows up and she's like, how areyou doing?
And he's like, well, I'm betternow.
She doesn't say anything toreaffirm the lack of interest
Correct, and most women won't,and and right, and, and she,
(40:58):
that would be mean right, right,correct, right.
So I think, like you said, isoh, I still have a chance now,
right, because he didn't.
She's not being consistent withthe message hey, we're just
friends, back off buddy type ofthing, right, and that's what
got in that.
And when, when I and listen,I've been there, I was younger
and unless you hear it's oh, Istill have a chance, right.
Charles (41:13):
But that's.
I find I feel that I'm the guyto understand and be able to
100%, 100%.
Dude, If your standard is, I'mgoing to keep pushing until I
make her have to be rude to me.
That's a problem.
That's when girls start sayingyou're a creep, right If you.
(41:34):
When girls start saying you'rea creep, right if you can't,
when you're not reading the room, right, you're not.
You're not looking things fromfrom their perspective.
You can't pick up on thenon-verbals and the yeah.
If you can't pick up on that,then you're basically saying
every girl I'm attracted to hasto like me back, or I'm going to
push her to the point whereshe's really rude to me and then
I'll probably complain abouther being a bitch or being mean
or being a tease and it's likedude, don't, whatever you have
to do to not be that guy, don'tbe that guy.
(41:55):
And yeah, I mean I don't knowthat he has it in him to be that
guy because he seems they'rewriting this character as being
very nice and very polite andvery passive and I mean all
those things.
It's okay to be those things,but yeah, you're just gonna set,
you're gonna to get things tothe point where she feels like
okay, I have to be, I have to berude if you're going to keep
(42:19):
refusing to get it, or or I justhave to be very kind of passive
with yes, I'll, I'll accept you.
You get to be my friend who hasa crush on me.
But every time you try to getout of that space, I'm gonna
shut it down.
Yeah, which is where the moreattractive thing to do for him
is to be like hey look, this is,this is the nature of the
relationship I want with you.
(42:40):
If, if you're not willing tohave that relationship with me,
then we just won't have arelationship and I'll be able to
move on to other prospects, andthat's that's okay, and that's
that's a strong and loving thingto do.
When, when somebody's notwilling to meet your needs, then
you have to be willing to sayfor yourself okay, well, I need
to be in relationships where myneeds are met and you're not
(43:01):
willing to provide that, so thiscrushy friendship I have with
you is going to get in the wayof me finding that with someone
else, so I have to leave itbehind.
Yeah, it's not easy to do, it'snot, but no, I mean, what's?
What's the other option?
You look up 10 years later andyou're still in a close
friendship with a girl thatyou're crushing on.
Dan (43:23):
Who doesn't want right and it's probably inhibited you from
doing a lot of other things andfinding a lot of other
connections right and it'sprobably not inhibiting her.
Charles (43:33):
It's, she's, she's going out there and dating the
kinds of guys she wants to bewith, and then you get to hear
the stories about it right, soshe's, she's getting her having
her cake and eating it too.
Dan (43:42):
Right, she gets she gets that friendship and that
connection from.
You.
Charles (43:46):
Which in a lot of cases , that's in a lot of cases
that's fine, that's.
She's not doing anything wrongby that.
If she's, if she'scommunicating her lack of
interest in a way that you'rejust refusing to accept it, yeah
and she keeps you around.
Dan (43:58):
That's on you, that's not on her and it's not to say that
you can't separate and then comeback as friends after you've
kind of established yourselfwith connecting with other
people and you can actually lookat the other person as just a
friend.
And I I have done that in thepast, where it's just like I was
.
I was crushing on somebody andshe's like well, I just look at
(44:21):
you as a friend and I'm like,well, I can't be just friends
with you right now.
I stopped talking to her forlike a couple of years.
It was hard because we're inyour classes and like she didn't
make it easy because she Iheard from the grapevine that
she's so upset that I wasn't afriend anymore.
Every once in a while I wasjust like, okay, so, but in and
in the end it was the best thingI ever did, because we come
(44:42):
back and we weren't ever asclose as we were at the
beginning and that wasintentional and that was a good
thing.
But you know, now it's it, it'sa pure platonic type of thing.
Charles (44:51):
It's interesting.
It's like I understand you'redisappointed that we can't be
close friends anymore, but don'tworry, the same skills that I'm
building to not get to be yourboyfriend, you get to build
those skills by not being myfriend.
It's like we'll both live withthe.
We'll both develop someresilience from not getting
exactly what we want out of thisrelationship exactly on our own
(45:12):
terms.
Yeah, so it's like yeah, I, Iappreciate that you've enjoyed
being my friend.
Maybe, maybe the guy in thescenario does have a little bit
of responsibility.
Well, I, I should have comeclean sooner and then we could
have saved us both a little bitof this discomfort yeah but I
didn't.
So here's where we are.
You want to be my closeplatonic friend.
I want to be your boyfriend.
(45:32):
Neither of us are going to getwhat we want, and hopefully that
will make us better at the nextrelationship we find ourselves
in.
Dan (45:39):
Yeah, yeah.
If only it had been.
You'd been around when I was injunior high to tell me that.
Charles (45:44):
Oh, I would have been in grade school so I wouldn't
have had I would have only hadthree quarters of this waste of
BX.
How dare you?
I knew what resilience.
Dan (45:51):
No, I didn't know what it was.
Charles (45:52):
I'd be like I would have defined what is this Our
word?
Appreciate that, or I wouldhave given you a different R
word.
All right, let's stop there fortoday, dan will.
We'll hit episode three nextwith the aftermath of the oh.
One thing I also thought was Iwant to say about Rick and
chelsea she felt like she was inreal danger during that robbery
, as any person who, the firsttime you've had a gun pointed at
(46:16):
you, you're going to feel likeI could have died.
And he was just like no, youdidn't.
I mean, on several occasionsshe's like I could have been
killed or I was almost killed orwhatever.
No, you weren't just dismissingit completely out of hand.
And then, yeah, he's a the partwhere he's a prick to her the
whole episode.
But at the very end, when hestarted feeling horny, he was
(46:37):
very happy to use her to comforthimself through some, some sex,
yeah, which, and she seemed tobe up for letting him do that.
Dan (46:46):
I mean, it was well, she came to him it was like protect
me, right and so, and then shehops on top of him.
So I feel like that was moreabout Right and so, and then she
hops on top of him.
So I feel like that was moreabout her.
You didn't really have to twisthis arm.
Charles (46:55):
Clearly he was into it Correct, yeah, but the the fact
that he, he downplayed herexperience until her experience
was.
Now.
I want physical intimacy, tofeel better about what I went
through.
Oh, okay, I can do that.
Yeah, I can't.
I can't throw a.
Yeah, that sounds really scary.
I'm sorry you went through that.
That's too much right.
Having you on my lap and turnand initiate sex with you,
(47:17):
that's easy, I can handle that.
So, yeah, I thought I thoughtthat spoke to just his, his
drives as a man, but also hisimmaturity, inability to address
things in any other way otherthan I'm gonna get mad or I'm
going to get horny.
That seems to be what he'scapable of at this point in the
show.
Dan (47:40):
Oh, I also wanted to mention at the end of this
episode.
There's a little foreshadowingthere, where dad walks away
basically to take the phone calland he's getting off the phone
trying to get that lawyer andafter he gets off the phone or
was it was the lawyer and he'sgetting off the phone trying to
get that lawyer and after hegets off the phone, or was it
was the lawyer, was he talkingto kenny?
I don't remember it might havebeen the lawyer.
Yeah, because kenny told himget a lawyer yesterday.
(48:00):
So he sees his family walkingback to the lodge or to to the
cabin and you hear loki lokitalking about when there was a
tsunami in kent.
Charles (48:13):
Yes, and the little girl was basically saying she
just studied so she knew it wascoming.
Dan (48:18):
But nobody believed her or whatever, and and and then it
like it kind of fades off and ohand so the dad, and then they,
they walk into the house andthen you see just like this look
of terror in Timothy his face,where he's just like, yeah, I
think he sees a tsunami comingand his family does yeah, that's
, that's a good point.
So I thought it was low, Ithought that was really well
(48:41):
done.
I was like Holy cow, that's,that's great, yeah.
Charles (48:43):
Yeah, man, I feel it again.
The, what we've seen so far, isthe only guy who seems to be
just acting normal, is themassage therapist that poland is
there to work with, like that'sthe only guy that's not done
anything weird yet, right?
I remember at this point thisepisode in the next episode.
I'm like man, I hope this guydoesn't get weird.
I hope they just keep him.
Yeah, so one guy who just knowshow to deal with people, knows
(49:06):
how to talk to people, doesn'tdo anything strange or show his
mental illness.
Wear it on the sleeve yeah andso far, so good yeah all right,
thanks, dan.
We'll talk to you next time,for episode three sounds good.
Thanks for listening all theway through, dan, and I
appreciate you being here.
We've got more white lotusmasculinity breakdowns coming,
so make sure to join us for thenext episode.
In the meantime, you can findfull audio and video episodes
(49:30):
and whatever else we're up toover at mindfully masculinecom.
See you next time.
nothing comes from nothing, right.
And then there's like almostlike a standoff, like where like
he's just like set in his waysand you shoot.
You see the the two extremes ofpessimism and optimism optimism
from her pessimism.
Charles (00:13):
And then the scene closes out where they're just
staring at each other andthey're not saying anything yeah
, not, and not just I mean not,not just pessimism, right to the
point I'd say nihilism, wherethis guy and it's like you
wonder, you wonder what his lifeoutside of the resort must look
like.
I mean, when you feel that wayabout yourself and you feel that
way about the world.
Hey everyone, Charles, here inthis episode of the mindfully
(00:37):
masculine podcast, Dan and Iding into season three, episode
two of the white Lotus andepisode we're calling bad Dads
and Broken Sons.
We're talking about whathappens when masculine identity
is built on money, status orcontrol and what it looks like
when those things start to fall.
Apart From Timothy Ratliff'sunraveling self-image, to Rick's
(01:00):
brooding nihilism in a Thaimeditation hut, to a lot of
weird energy between brotherswho maybe need better boundaries
we, to a lot of weird energybetween brothers who maybe need
better boundaries We've got alot to unpack.
If you're watching the WhiteLotus and wondering what it's
really saying about men,masculinity and modern identity,
you're in the right place.
And if you want full audio andvideo episodes plus bonus
content, anything else we feellike putting out into the world
(01:21):
head over tomindfullymasculinecom, let's get
into it out into the world headover to mindfullymasculinecom.
Dan (01:25):
Let's get into it.
Good morning.
Charles (01:26):
How are you, charles?
I'm well, dan, thank you.
I'm a little chilly, hence theouterwear this morning.
It is a little chilly thismorning.
I fear it's probably our worstcool spell that we're going to
have.
If I say worst, I mean last,our last cool spell before
Florida summer kicks in and I'mmiserable and complaining for
months and months.
Florida summer kicks in and I'mmiserable and complaining for
months and months.
Dan (01:46):
I don't know.
This week it looked like it'sgonna be.
It's still gonna be pretty,pretty mild that'd be nice.
Charles (01:51):
A nice cool easter time of year would be would be
lovely, but I I've been trainedto not expect it, so we'll see.
So we're going to talk aboutepisode two of season three of
white lotus, which dan and Iboth re-watched very recently.
We're recording this onthursday, april the 10th.
The finale happened on sunday,which I have seen.
(02:13):
Dan has not yet seen.
So I will work hard not to I'mnot gonna spoil anything past
episode two.
You better not to the best ofmy ability.
I'm gonna be upset, but thefinale was extremely well done,
I found like good art.
It made me feel a lot of thingsOkay, and so I really
appreciate the way I was sayingin our last episode I don't know
(02:34):
how he's going to tie all thisstuff together.
I was going to say ISO, that's achallenge.
Pulled it off though.
Well done.
I really appreciated the workthat he did.
I'd be referring to mike white,the series creator.
He did.
Yeah, it was.
It was phenomenal.
Definitely there were things Iliked, things I didn't like, but
it was still well done.
It wasn't like I don't like thisbecause he didn't do it good.
(02:56):
It was like I don't like thisbecause of what he's doing to
like either the good things he'sdoing to characters I don't
like or the bad things he'sdoing to characters I do like he
definitely was pulling on thestrings and okay, phenomenal,
really, really enjoyed it.
Can't, can't wait to discuss itwith you, both on the show and
off the show, once you've had achance to watch it.
But that guy is a he's anamazing filmmaker.
(03:18):
I really I like the way andwe'll talk about in this episode
but the way he he just sets upthese archetypes where it's like
, okay, I know who that guy is,I know what that guy is and I
know what to expect from him.
Yeah, and you get that.
But then he also is able to putin little things that you
weren't expecting in a way thatdoes not feel inauthentic to to
(03:42):
who he's established thecharacter to be okay and so so
it's a natural progression ortransition but with but still
with surprises.
Yeah, or it's like timothyratliff is who.
I thought timothy ratliff wasthe whole time, but then okay so
it's not like a sharp veer tothe left or whatever, which is
what I feel.
Come on, I am like hate whenshows did you?
Dan (04:04):
yeah, like we're hiding up everybody has an epiphany right,
exactly.
And and now they're transformedright where.
Charles (04:10):
Yeah, it doesn't really happen that way on this show.
All right, I I reallyappreciate.
So let's talk about, we'll gowith the ratliff family first.
So timothy, the dad in episodetwo, what we see from him, and
again we're going to spoil,we're going to say what happens
in this episode.
So if you haven't seen it yet,stop listening, watch episode
two and then come back.
We go a little bit deeper intowhat seems to be unspooling as
(04:38):
far as his life, hisprofessional life, goes.
He talks to his office, findsout that there's another
reporter from another majornewspaper trying to talk to him,
which is never, never good.
I mean, that doesn't usuallyhappen for good reasons.
That happens for not greatreasons.
And then he finally is able tomake contact with his previous
(04:59):
business partner.
The two, him and this other guy, went in on this, either
created a fund or somethingtogether Kenny, kenny, yeah, and
kenny was voiced by, uh, shortround from temple of doom, oh my
god, who we also know fromeverything, everywhere all at
once yeah, yeah, wasn't hegoonies?
he was at goonies as well yeahwhat's?
What's his name?
Dan (05:20):
I need to look it up data, wasn't he data and goonies?
Charles (05:22):
I have have not seen Goonies since.
Dan (05:25):
Okay.
Charles (05:26):
Yeah, it's like it came out, I think he was yeah, I
think he was known as data.
Let me see.
So I don't remember much aboutit.
Dan (05:33):
Oh my God, I'm definitely not remembering.
Maybe I'm mixing him up withStar Trek, but I'm pretty sure
his name, or his name, his nameor his nickname.
Now we'll.
We'll clean this up in post yes, it was.
Charles (05:51):
It was data.
Oh, my god, look at that oncein a while my memory works.
He hi, he hi.
Kwan is the actor's name.
Dan (05:54):
Yeah, so he, I did not know that was okay yeah, it's
interesting what they but don'tsay too much about, because they
haven't shown him yet.
For the ones that I've seen,they haven't shown him at all.
Charles (06:02):
They never show him, and him and professor scott
gallay, who we talk aboutfrequently, have only been voice
actors on season three of WhiteLotus.
Okay, in fact, in this episodeI mean that's not really much of
a spoiler Timothy is on thephone trying to get a lawyer on
the phone.
Like I need a lawyer right now.
Dan (06:22):
Yeah.
Charles (06:30):
The lawyer he ends up talking to is voiced by
professor scott galloway from.
He's got a few podcasts that Ilike listen to.
He speaks a lot aboutmasculinity and the crisis of
young men and all this stuff.
And, yeah, he's.
I'm often sharing some of hisclips on our social media for
the podcast.
And, yeah, he plays.
He's one of the voice actorsthat's just on the other side of
the phone that you never see.
And so is Kehoe Kwan, he, yeah.
So, anyway, him and Ratliffpartnered together to, I believe
(06:51):
, start some sort of a fund, andthen Ratliff mentions a couple
things about it.
It was apparently involved inbribery and money laundering
which you know is not good, andalso only made him 10 million
dollars.
That really put things inperspective.
I can't believe I got myselfinto this trouble for only 10
(07:12):
million dollars so you saidthey're doing well.
Dan (07:14):
But then when he drops that bomb, you're like oh okay, now
I really understand how perhapsisolated or like that they, that
family, is reality?
Charles (07:25):
Do they mention where they live, like what part of the
U S?
They live in North Carolina.
They live in North Carolina.
I know they went to schoolthere, but I didn't know.
Dan (07:34):
I think they still live.
Charles (07:35):
Okay, yeah, so it's possible, it's a whole thing.
They could be worth a billiondollars.
I mean when, when you talk thatway about $10 million, like he
could be like one of thesebillion-dollar fund managers
that you know fastest growinggrass in America right now is
the billionaire class, oh my God, yeah.
Then year to year, from prettymuch every year, from COVID,
(07:55):
like the number of billionairesin our country is just kind of
hockey stick growth, as theylike to say.
Dan (08:01):
Interesting.
Charles (08:02):
Yeah, I'd like to know what industries those are from I
think I, I suspect it's mostlyfinancial management, people who
, people who are in the financeindustry, I don't, I don't know
that it's manufacturingentrepreneurs or yeah, or you
tech, it might be tech, but I, Isuspect it's wealth management.
Okay, but we'll, yeah, I can, Ican check, yeah, I'm curious.
(08:23):
So they, they could be worththat, that family could, he
could be writing them to beworth that much.
But certainly I'm trying tothink how much money I'd have to
say, I'd have to have to say Ionly made 10 million off this.
Yeah, at least 500 million, Iwould think, probably.
I think I'd have to be worthhalf a billion to scoff at 10
million.
Dan (08:43):
now that's the thing too is like all right, how much you're
worth versus what you'rebringing in every year.
That probably would be a biggerindicator for me, not
necessarily what you got stockedaway, but like what you're
bringing in.
And anyway, regardless, it's alot of money for him to go get
upset.
Charles (09:00):
Like this was not worth it.
Yeah, I wasted my time and so,yeah, he's acting like the noose
is starting to tighten andyou're seeing him behave that
way with both the staff and hisfamily.
His family he's kind of just.
He's not getting as sharp withhis family.
He's more like a littledisconnected, preoccupied.
That seems to be ramping up,but when it comes to his
(09:22):
interactions with the staff,he's willing to get short and
rude with them yeah, especiallythe.
Dan (09:27):
I remember the assistant's name, or basically she comes
around for the phone.
Charles (09:31):
So I was timing exactly , yeah and yeah, something like
you'd be a lot less stressedyeah, if you gave me your phone
I'd be less stressed.
You stopped, that's good, yeah,and you can tell it's.
It's really yeah, starting to.
And then he's complaining aboutthe, the time change and how
he's on day is night, night isdown, exactly, yeah, yeah, so so
I mean listen, I, I heard along you knew.
Dan (09:54):
You knew this going in, you're going to freaking the
other side of the world.
It shouldn't be.
Uh, it normally wouldn't bethat big of a deal, but
considering the stress that he'sunder right, that's where
you're kind of like oh my god,the time zone's driving me nuts
like really and in in classicmaladaptive behavior.
Charles (10:09):
When he starts feeling the pressure on it, he's willing
to, in very passive ways, startblaming his daughter for it,
like this is your fault.
We're here because of yourthesis and your your.
This inconvenience is yourfault, like not the fact that I
engaged in dishonest, illegalbusiness practices X number of
years ago Five years ago, Ithink it was.
(10:31):
No, that's the problem here isthat I can't get people on the
phone.
Dan (10:36):
Well, okay, so from that episode it wasn't clear to me
whether it was in the past orstill was occurring, because it
sounded like it was still kindof happening along fund might be
open.
Charles (10:46):
That's true.
He claimed he hadn't talked tothis kenny guy in four or five
years right, but I think thatwas a fucking lie.
It might have been yeah, itmight have been a lie.
Or that may have been when theythe fund was, the fund's
inception might have been fiveyears ago.
And then look, I mean, if you,if you start a fund and the
basis is bribery and moneylaundering, that's the, the
underlying structure of the, youmay not want to have a lot of
(11:09):
interaction with the guy thatyou started it with.
Yeah, so I maybe I got theimpression that this was
something they did a while agookay, but you're right, I also
did.
Dan (11:18):
Yeah, it does feel like, so I didn't believe probably an
ongoing thing right when thenewspaper from the new york
times was asking about kenny,he's like oh, I haven't talked
to him in so many years.
I know he's in brunei.
It just sounded.
He came across as lying to me,like so that's.
Initially I was just like, andthen for him to like get right
on the phone with kenny.
It took some time to get him onthe phone right but but at the
(11:38):
same time it seemed like therewas a familiarity there based on
the conversation, where itsounded like they talk they
hadn't been four years sincethey had a last conversation.
Charles (11:46):
Yeah, you might be right about I don't know, but
they, they left the kind ofthey've been, I think, for
people to figure it out.
And kenny's not doing.
Well, kenny's, I mean thistimothy's threatening him like
if you sell me out, I'm gonnakill you, and kenny's like I'm
gonna kill myself, and then the.
And then he's like you do itlike he's to kiss himself.
He's like yeah, you better, kindof thing which is not all the
(12:09):
mentally healthy people I knoware not encouraging others to
kill themselves, so that'sobviously maladaptive,
maladjusted behavior as well.
When life throws you problems,encouraging other people to kill
themselves is not usually thebest way to solve those problems
, but it is a way to show howfalling apart this guy is and
(12:33):
and, frankly, how not resilienthe is.
I I think it's not the factthat he might go to prison that,
I think, is freaking timothyratliff out.
I think it's the number ofsteps down his life would take
if he ended up there.
You know what I'm saying andalso he's so his.
Dan (12:52):
He clearly cares more about his occupation and his job than
, I think, his family and otherthings of life.
So that's his world and he, ifhe gets convicted, there's never
.
He's not going back, he's notgoing to be able to be back and
and do what he's doing thefinance space anymore.
Charles (13:06):
Yeah either exactly.
And, yeah, his world is hisidentity, his status.
I think his family is some ofthat, but I think most of it is
is his wealth, his success, hisbusiness, and so, yeah, I think
he's feeling like okay, this andthe impression, his reputation,
his wife, like, talked about it.
Dan (13:23):
It's just like you did it, like you, you made all the money
, you've got an awesome family,you've accomplished everything
kind of thing and so like.
Charles (13:32):
And I I hear all the time from people what a good man
you are, and so all that likeyeah, is going to be completely
shattered yeah, it really doescome down to identity and who
you think you are and, uh, andthat seems to be the challenge,
the stumbling point for a lot ofthe guys on this show let's
talk about Saxon Saxon'scontinuing to act weird in this
(13:55):
episode in different ways.
I mean number one if you'rebunking with your little brother
, are you sleeping completelynaked?
Dan (14:02):
No, I'm not no.
Charles (14:05):
I mean, you and I have shared multiple hotel rooms and
neither one of us has strippedall the way down and just, oh, I
just sleep.
I just sleep naked.
This is just what I do.
Dan (14:10):
So now this is your problem too yeah, I kept my socks on,
so you know, yeah, exactly and Inever took off the fedora.
Charles (14:17):
Yeah, no, that that's freak, that's very, that's very.
You're sharing a room with yourbrother and sleep in a in a
warm tropical environment,especially where toss it and
turn it and throw in the sheetsoff yourself in your sleep is
highly likely.
So that's again weird stuffabout nudity and sexuality with
(14:37):
this family.
And yeah, it just.
He has an older sibling.
Don't sleep completely nakedwith your as a younger sibling
don't sleep, it just gives meweird vibes.
Yeah, yeah.
And then let's see what elsedid he do?
That was weird.
There was something else thatwe saw oh, joking about not
getting a happy ending for hismassage.
(14:59):
Well, that joke in front of hiswhole family.
Yeah, and mom has been fit likelike a little too much.
Let it be a function of herbeing on drugs so that that
could be a factor.
Her being a lorazepam addict,right, might be prompting those
weird, or her weird, herweirdness around sexuality and
(15:21):
possible previous trauma couldbe what?
Right, like her lorazepamaddiction could be like chicken
or the egg.
We don't.
Dan (15:26):
Yeah, it's kind of like it's almost like she'd never
heard that joke before, right,everybody.
I mean massage and happy endingstuff, and it was just like
yeah, maybe the part of maybethat's to kind of reflect how
weird she is about sex ingeneral, like that's kind of new
to her.
Charles (15:42):
Let that, that oh, you should be like a happy ending or
or still so fresh, not new tome but I'm gonna have this
exaggerated reaction to it toact like it is what?
this is crazy like, yeah, it wasdefinitely weird.
So, um, so, that was weird.
Weird.
But him joking about the happyending, weird sleeping naked.
And then also the.
I like how he kind of looksdown on drug use.
(16:05):
Meanwhile the little sisterpoints out that he's popping at
her all constantly and he's likethat's not drug use, right I do
to get shit done right.
Yeah, it's, it's.
It is interesting how I meanboth loraz caffeine.
Dan (16:17):
Caffeine can be considered a drug too.
I mean, it's all.
Charles (16:19):
It all does change your state yeah, but but yeah, when
it comes to pharmaceuticals inparticular, it is interesting
how I mean lorazepam issomething she gets from her
doctor, adderall something hegets from a doctor?
Almost certainly yeah, and wedo kind of look at uppers and
downers a little bit differentlyin our society, where at least
(16:41):
maybe that's the people who useuppers look down on the people
who use downers, and I'll betthe people who use downers look
I don't think you can generalizelike that, but Well, he was
using uppers and he wasdefinitely looking.
He was speaking against his momusing lorazepam.
Okay, and I mean I think we all, I think people do.
(17:02):
I think you can generalize thatwhen people land on a drug of
choice, if they're going to lookdown at all, they're not going
to look down on their own drugof choice, they're going to look
down on the people that use theother stuff.
And I was getting that from.
Dan (17:16):
Saxon for sure.
Identity of somebody who workshard, gets stuff done, is active
.
Meanwhile he sees his mombasically fall asleep at the
table right, and so I thinkthere could be some judgment
related to the end result of thedrug that you're taking as well
, and then just saying, oh, I'mnot a drug user and maybe he's
(17:38):
thinking drugs are only stuffthat inhibits you and brings you
down.
Yeah right, so it's still.
Charles (17:44):
Yeah, you know it's I.
I look down on people who copewith life using a method other
than the method that I use,because the method that I use
that's just smart, that's a lifehack, that's the right way to
do to do life where the waythese other people do it is not
where I mean I and I do a littlebit of this myself too.
(18:04):
Whenever I've noticed recently,whenever I visit sort of bigger
cities and you walk around indowntown areas and what I've
been experiencing lately, it'slike everybody reeks of weed
everywhere I go in downtown bigcity areas and I kind of do like
, oh man, you can't, can't makeit through the day without
(18:25):
lighting up and smoking yourweed because you can't deal with
life.
Meanwhile, the people who arejust popping oxys they don't
smell like anything, so I haveno idea that they're up to the
same, essentially the same,behavior.
Or the people who are poppingAdderall.
Or the people who are usingalcohol at levels where they're
not like a homeless wino that'sstumbling around the place.
It's like everybody's doingsomething to cope with life and
(18:48):
it's like, well, the uh.
It's easy for me to look downon the people that do it in a
way where it's like oh, I canclearly tell you're doing this,
so therefore, me right, who areyou?
Dan (18:57):
I mean, but that's, that's human, that's human nature.
Yeah, yeah, part of you're partof my tribe, or you're not
right?
Charles (19:02):
yeah, it's kind of, but it's still.
Dan (19:04):
What kinds of things make me think that you're part of my
tribe?
Understand?
Are you like me or you?
Charles (19:07):
know you like yeah, are you like me, do you do the
things I do?
Or trying to say are yousomeone who's not like me and
does other things?
And so I try to.
When I have those thoughts, Itry to remind myself like okay,
you don't.
You don't know what their dealis, so chill out.
Dan (19:20):
I mean and you don't know what life would be like if they
didn't do those things Right.
How would things be Like?
Maybe this is actuallybenefiting them in some way.
Charles (19:28):
Right, Exactly I mean I .
Dan (19:30):
An alternative wouldn't be much worse.
Charles (19:31):
Yeah, they could just be a recreational weed user
without a lot of motivation andthey just like chilling all the
time and that might be theirdeal.
Or it's like oh, I'm actuallyon chemo, so I use this to stop
myself from being nauseous andbeing able to actually eat.
Dan (19:45):
Or like Rick.
It's not my business, but Right, or like Rick, it basically was
at a stress level of 80, toldthe meditation teacher and
that's when he was like, hey, Ineed some, but weed helps, right
.
So that makes him a little bitof a nicer person, yeah.
Charles (19:59):
Let's, let's jump into it, you know.
So I really his his interactionwith the meditation teacher,
which that was good, that firststep there's very, very like yes
, there's a lot going on there,and it felt a little bit like a
first therapy session too insome ways, mostly because of
what he was willing to disclose,which is interesting.
But the first thing that came tomind was her asking him how are
(20:22):
you feeling?
And his answer is I don't know.
Yeah, which is pretty commonfor people, for trauma survivors
.
They, they have difficultylabeling what they're feeling,
labeling their emotions, beingable to say this is what I'm
experiencing now, in the moment.
It's only it's only later, orif maybe not at all, that
(20:43):
they're able to actually put aname on what they were
experiencing.
So I found that was reallyinteresting.
Rick lacks the ability, at leastin this context, to say what
he's feeling and to label it,which is common for people that
survive trauma.
And he gets into specificallywhat trauma.
(21:03):
His mother was a drug addictand I guess she OD'd when, when
he was 10 and his father diedbefore he was born.
Yeah, murdered, oh.
Did he say murdered?
Yes, okay, so yeah, and there's.
It seems like there's usually acouple of ways.
People who have that backgroundcan go one of two ways.
(21:23):
In my experience either my lifeis garbage because of what I
missed out on, or essentiallywriting it off like everybody
has their thing.
This is mine, everything's fine, it's fine, it's not affecting
me, it's fine, yeah.
And he seems to be going downthe other road of yeah, I missed
out on some important stuff Ishould not have missed out on,
(21:46):
and, as a result, I mean hetalks about not having an
identity, yes, having nothinginside of him, right?
And so it's almost like Iempathize, admire and respect
someone who's willing to say myneeds were not met and, as
result, I'm in rough shape likeI.
(22:07):
I can appreciate that and I canrespect that, but it doesn't
seem like he has gone the nextstep of and, while that sucks,
now I have a responsibility todo something about it.
I, it doesn't feel like right,right, or he certainly, yeah,
and he's.
He's in Thailand on somebusiness that we don't know
(22:30):
exactly what it's about at thispoint, but it does seem like he.
He wants to figure out a way tosoothe this feeling, but we
don't know what that is.
And and he certainly, whateverhe's there to do, is
preoccupying him from puttinganything good into his
(22:51):
relationship with his girlfriend, because they are, I mean, she
really loves this guy and he'snot really giving her much to
work with at all.
Dan (23:02):
And she tries to get him constantly.
She's trying to get him out ofhis shell, get him to enjoy
something, and he's justmiserable the whole time.
And she's like oh, I met ChloeRight, the other woman there,
and we've got dinner plans withher, her boyfriend.
And he's like no, no, no, no,no, no, no.
And she goes yeah, we have somuch in common.
(23:24):
Like I'm young and fun, likeshe is, and and you're old and
and he's old and and he's bald,and you're going bald.
He's like I'm not going bald andshe's like okay, yeah, yeah but
that was right after, not rightafter, but I think was it this
episode of the episode beforethat they were talking about
lbh's losers, where basicallyold white guys, old bald white
(23:45):
guys, they considered lbh'slosers back home, and so was
that.
That was this early this seasonyeah, yeah, yeah and right and
and so it might have.
I thought it was in thatepisode.
It might may not have been mythe next one I thought it was
and the.
The ironic thing too was likeright after that scene they were
showing piper in the yoga classand, if you remember, there was
(24:09):
a guy that was standing infront of her like doing his
stretches.
He was an old, bald white guyand he kept like looking back at
her, like with these creepylooks, like every time he did a
move he'd like crane his neck tokind of give her the eye or
whatever, like way too much andit was just just this perpetual
message of creepy old walls,white guys throughout this, this
(24:30):
whole thing, and I felt likewhen chloe was not chloe,
chelsea was, chelsea is thatchelsea, are we right?
chelsea no, no, it is chelsearick's girlfriend.
Yeah, she was trying to get himto, I guess.
I felt like he was kind of likeat a fork in the road where,
like he wasn't quite bald yet,so it's like where, where you
have a choice now, because thatwas also right before he went to
(24:51):
see the meditation instructorand she was trying to get him to
go, and so she was like hey, Ithink this would be good for you
.
And basically it was like hey,you're about to go bald.
So you, you have a.
You have it's kind of almostlike a metaphorical fork in the
road.
You go down this path and becomethis creepy, old, bald white
guy, or you could kind of changeyour ways and maybe save your
hairline and your life a littlebit right yeah, and then I think
(25:14):
after that, that's when youwent to the meditation
instructor and what was reallyinteresting to me was that she
would say, hey, he basically,like she asked him, you know
something about his identity?
And he's like I don't have anidentity.
And she goes well.
Sometimes that can be, that canjust be a figment, basically,
of your imagination as well.
And he goes well if, if youdon't put any gas in the tank,
(25:37):
nothing's gonna start, car's notgonna start, nothing comes from
nothing, right?
And then there's like almostlike a standoff, like where,
like he's just like set in hisways and you shoot.
You see the, the two extremesof pessimism and optimism
optimism from her pessimism.
Charles (25:53):
And then the scene closes out where they're just
staring at each other andthey're not saying anything yeah
, not, and not just, I mean noteven, not just pessimism, right
to the point I'd say nihilism,where this guy and it's like you
wonder, you wonder what hislife outside of the resort must
look like.
I mean, when you feel that wayabout yourself and you feel that
way about the world, like what?
(26:14):
And?
And he alludes to this with thedinner with gary, where it's
like he I think he alludes insome way to gary's wealth and
the nice houses like so what?
What do you do?
He's like I'm retired, retiredfrom what?
All this and that?
And it's like what about you?
He's like yeah, this is that alot of a lot of people, a lot of
people around here who do thisand this and that yeah oh yeah,
(26:36):
you get the.
It's like these are two shadyguys.
It's almost like two predatorsrecognizing each other.
Like we're both.
Yep, we're both.
Not, that's exactly right, noton the up and up here we're both
, we're both, not that's exactlyright, Not on the up and up
here, where we're both not thekind of people you screw around
with and and it's interesting,where I mean Gary's the only
character, or Greg, as he was inprevious previous seasons he's
(26:58):
it's.
It's interesting that he's theonly like thread that's run
through the whole series.
Dan (27:02):
Well, the massage therapist too.
Oh yeah, that's fair, well.
Well, actually she didn't, shewasn't in the last one, that's
right.
Charles (27:07):
We didn't see her in italy.
Yeah, we saw her in one and wesaw her now but they kind of
brought her back, yeah, but yeah, gary greg, yeah, he's, he's
definitely bad news and herecognizes that rick is bad news
too and they it's like theythey're the only two people that
really see each other like thatget, okay, I, I know what's
(27:29):
going on here.
That was an interesting dynamicto me.
We we breezed over lachlan, butthere wasn't really much to
lachlan in this episode.
He's he's basically anopen-minded kid who's trying to
figure out who he is.
Dan (27:40):
I would say right, well, do you remember the scene?
This is this.
This is in this episode.
He's in the water with hissister.
Charles (27:47):
Oh, where he brings up Saxon's remark.
Dan (27:49):
And he's like, yeah, so he's.
So he went, he did a sensorydeprivation right.
And so she's like, oh, hey, howwas it?
Did you meditate?
He's like no, but I prayed.
And she's like oh.
And he's like, well, I don'treally feel anything.
And she's like, well, Idefinitely feel something.
And then he questions her andhe goes do you feel something
like an external presence?
(28:09):
Because you want to feelsomething, or is it really?
It's real?
And she just like cut him off.
So she was yeah, and then hekind of pokes back and he felt a
little attacked by that.
But what, right?
And then, but.
And then he, though, retaliatesalmost because she, that's true
, and what do you?
Charles (28:29):
think he was aggressive , wasn't he?
Oh, absolutely, he didn't pitchthat.
Dan (28:32):
He goes right and he goes Saxon doesn't think you've had
sex.
And she's like what the fuck?
And she's like why is he evenasking whatever?
And he goes well, well,whatever, he goes well, well.
And then, and so then lock, hekind of backs up because he sees
you really upset his sister andhe's like, oh well, he said it
because you were hot and likelike like trying to make it a
better was make it worse.
And she's like what the fuck?
(28:53):
Why is he talking?
Yeah, yeah and so.
And then they have a little bitmore conversation and then
saxon is so cool, I'm not saxon,lock, he's so clueless.
He goes, she's clearly upsetabout this.
They say something else, andthen we'll have you, we'll have
you.
And then she's like, oh my god.
And then she swims away, right,and I was just like that was,
and he's.
And then he's like, oh, fuck.
He's like, yeah, oh, I fuckedup.
(29:14):
Yeah, it's definitely he'sreally trying to figure himself
out and like how to have no thatsocial interaction that is
worth a packing.
Charles (29:20):
So yes, he, basically he, he went at her belief system
in a way that most people wouldfeel a little attacked about.
So that's a lack of socialawareness and intelligence on
his part, I would say.
And then his efforts to try tomake it better.
It wasn't just you would hopeat your best if you, if you
(29:41):
brought it up in that way andyou could tell you sort of
bristled somebody with, withwhat you were.
I didn't mean to get me tooffend you, didn't mean to
attach you my mistake, but he,it didn't seem like he had the
either the skills or wasn't ableto pick up on that's what
happened and just apologize andback off a little bit.
It's like let it change thesubject to something else.
Dan (30:01):
That's more pleasant, or so I don't know about that.
I'm thinking maybe he got upsetbecause he he didn't know how
to handle her being upset at him, and so he's just like.
He's like oh, she yelled at mebecause she made me feel stupid,
because it's real, now I'mgonna, now I'm gonna and I, and
now I'm gonna stick the knife ina little bit right.
(30:21):
Interesting because it's likewell saxon said, you haven't had
sex yet right, that'sinteresting.
Charles (30:26):
Yeah, we both definitely seen to try to get
back.
Dan (30:29):
We saw that differently and I think you're probably more
correct on it than I am, butyeah, that's that is interesting
, that, yeah, he, he probablyfelt a little shamed that I
didn't handle this interactionright, so now I've got to defend
myself by bringing her down tomy let's make her uncomfortable
too or or or more, I think mywhere my opinion is is he feels
(30:50):
then, less than her, like dumberthan her, because she's like,
of course it's real, like liketalking to him almost like a
child and so him feeling okay,well, I need to somehow raise my
status or bring her down,because I see that she's above
me when she said it's real andso maybe it's like I want to
(31:11):
bring her down a little bit.
Well, saxon says you haven'teven had sex yet, and then he
realized he overreached a littlebit and then it just like
snowballs badly from there.
I think that would be the way Iinterpret it.
Charles (31:23):
No, I think you're onto something there.
There's definitely definitelyand again, plus, the way this
family handles sexuality seemsto be a bit weird anyway, and so
, yeah, that seems like adangerous, dangerous area to
poke somebody when they'rethere's energy in that family
around sexuality and it seems tobe weird energy.
(31:43):
So, yeah, very like walkingover ground with with landmines
in it.
Like, how do you, how do youapproach this?
How do you bring it up in a waythat isn't going to set people
off?
And, yeah, I think I think lockI mean lock you may there may
be some trauma in his background, some in in his sister's, some
(32:04):
in his brother's, it's, it's alljust very, it strikes me as
this is off.
This isn't how normal, healthypeople in a family interact in
this area.
Dan (32:12):
And clearly he has.
He respects his older brotherquite a bit and kind of looks up
to him.
So I think maybe that'ssomething, maybe his older
brother might say something likethat bold and that, hey, you
haven't had sex Right.
So he was almost pretendinghe's almost trying to play him.
Yeah, yeah, which is a mistake.
Charles (32:31):
Clearly, yes, definitely, yeah, all right,
let's.
Let's go to a guy talking andand what we learned about him in
this episode so he what he asksmook to have lunch with them.
And I liked the way he did it,where he asked her what her
plans were and she said and hedidn't really.
(32:52):
I usually go with the girls,right, I usually go with the
girls.
And he didn't really ask.
He said have lunch with meinstead, yeah, which is good.
That's.
A good way to ask a girl outfor a date is to not ask but say
, but to tell, still doing it ina way where they have the
ability to say no, thank you, ifthey don't want to do it, but
(33:12):
it's well, she said why, andhe's like well, I want to talk
to you but he didn't say that Ididn't love.
okay, the, the idea of.
I mean anyhow, anything in thein the range of we need to talk
later is not.
That can be anxiety-inducing or, at the very least, put
expectations on someone likeokay, what's this going to be
(33:35):
about?
Right?
Not always in a positive way,yeah, and so I would not say I
need to talk to you as part of alunch invitation to somebody.
I think that's probably not thebest way to go.
I mean something along thelines of because I want to spend
some time with you or because Iwant to hang out with you, it
would be fun.
(33:55):
All strike me as better options.
I want to talk to you.
You know what I mean, yeah.
Dan (34:00):
Yeah.
Charles (34:02):
And so when they do have the lunch, he, yeah, he
gives her, he gives her a salespitch and he, he, and it's a
sales pitch that focuses on thefeatures, not the benefits as
well, where he basically istrying to talk her into going
straight to hey, we should betogether, yeah.
Dan (34:27):
Uh, because your brother's like me and what from the same
town or something right, yourfamilies know each other, or
something like that, right yeah?
Charles (34:31):
and the.
These are all legitimatereasons to be in a relationship
with someone, but when thatsomeone, when that girl
especially, is when she'sattracted to you and when she's
interested in you, she's goingto be telling herself these
reasons.
She doesn't need to hear itfrom you and it just I found it
(34:51):
cringy.
I found it cringy andineffective, based on my own
experiences.
What, what were your thoughtswhen he was giving her the pitch
?
Dan (34:58):
Oh, absolutely it was.
It was again.
It was putting the cart beforethe horse.
Charles (35:05):
I felt like, right, like you just said, basically
like there needs to be theattraction there, and then it's
like, okay, if we're gonna standa chance of moving forward and
building something meaningfultogether, right, those other
things then come into play atthat point correct, because he
he's one of the things we talkabout on this show constantly is
being over invested in a girlthat you're not in a
(35:26):
relationship with yet and actinglike you're over invested is is
a killer to attraction, romance, intrigue, all that stuff.
He's basically saying I haven'tbeen on a date with you, but
I'm already thinking we shoulddiscuss having a life together
and and her reaction is wehaven't even been on a date yet.
(35:47):
So the fact that he's evenconsidering her having this role
in his life without everactually going on a date with
her, it screams scarcity, itscreams overinvestment, it
screams inexperience.
Dan (36:04):
And fantasizing about this life together that hasn't
happened yet, great.
Or that she like, because he'salready on a different level,
he's thinking they're ready forthat.
And then what?
She laughs at him.
She basically is just likedon't be stupid idiot, don't be,
don't be stupid, just eat yourfood.
And he's, and he's, he's likeslowly, he wasn't even eating
(36:25):
the whole time.
That's what.
All, that's what it brought.
She even called him out on.
Yes, she's like why aren't youeating your food?
And because she was so nervousto talk to her about the whole
thing, so the whole thing thatthe whole interaction was was
not something attractive for forher.
And then that's when she's justlike all right, look, you just
put yourself in the friend zoneat this point, like don't be
(36:46):
stupid, let's just just eat,finish your lunch, and then
we'll go on from there therobbers.
Charles (36:53):
She is concerned for him and she talks about him
being brave and she's worriedabout him and stuff like that,
but which I think he immediatelyuses that concern for him to
(37:15):
erase the fact that she haswhether you want to call it
rejected him or justcommunicated a lack of romantic
interest.
He pretends like that all justgoes away because she's worried
about him after he gets bonksbonked in the head.
Yeah, like a girl can like you,like spending time with you,
care about you and not want youto have a concussion.
And that doesn't mean she wantsto be your girlfriend, right,
(37:38):
right, and it seems like that,really just kind of that was
lost on him, like I don't knowif it's because he's a little
bit of a, you know.
So how should he have acted?
Well, I mean number one it'snot our job to tell other people
, even fictional characters, howthey should behave, but if your
goal is to have the possibilityof a romantic relationship with
(38:02):
this girl, you should only askfor the next level of
interaction.
You shouldn't try to skiplevels.
And he was trying to skiplevels.
He was, he was trying to sellher on.
Here's why we should be acouple, when they hadn't even
gone on a date together.
So if the goal is if you thinkthe goal is to be in a couple
(38:22):
with this girl, then what youneed to do is offer her the next
step in your relationship,which is let's go on a date.
The next step in yourrelationship, which is let's go
on a date.
Don't ask her to be yourgirlfriend when you've never
been on a date before.
Ask her to go out with you on adate and then go on the date
with her and evaluate her as apossible fit for the kind of
(38:43):
person you would like to go on asecond date with.
But when you're I've seen thememe before people it's a person
like on a staircase wherethey're trying to go from step
one to step five, and they'relike taking a big, uncomfortable
step to step five.
And that's what he was doingwith his relationship with her.
He's trying to skip over stepstwo, three and four and just go
(39:05):
straight from one to five.
And it does look uncomfortableand awkward when you try to do
that.
Yeah, and it does lookuncomfortable and awkward when
you try to do that.
And so if that's the goal, ifthat's the end goal, if you
think she'd be a good match forthat, all the more reason to not
try to skip there, because it'sgoing to turn her off.
If you want her to get on boardwith thinking, hmm, step five
might be a place I want to bewith this guy, show her how good
(39:26):
of a time step two is and thatif step two goes well in a way
that both of you agree that itgoes well, then go to step three
and see how step three goes.
But yeah, he, he tried to skipto step five, which makes the
expectation and the pressure andthe likelihood of a fun,
exciting step two decreased byat least some measure yeah so
(39:47):
well said yeah.
And then he also made themistake of any pretty girl that
I'm attracted to.
If she's nice to me for anyreason, oh, it's because she,
she's interested in meromantically.
And that's another mistake thatinexperienced guys will make.
Like girls, girls can be niceto you and and like you and not
(40:08):
want you to have head trauma forreasons other than he's so
attractive, he's so sexy.
I wish, I wish I was in arelationship with him, but I
could.
The actor did a good job ofportraying okay, she's.
She's being nice to me after,yeah, this experience I had
where I got hit in the head, Igot pistol whipped.
Now she's being nice to me.
You, you're saying there's achance?
(40:29):
Yep, yeah.
And that's a mistake on hispart.
Mm-hmm.
Dan (40:33):
Yeah, but she does.
So that's the thing, though shedoesn't ever like when she
shows up and she's like, how areyou doing?
And he's like, well, I'm betternow.
She doesn't say anything toreaffirm the lack of interest
Correct, and most women won't,and and right, and, and she,
(40:58):
that would be mean right, right,correct, right.
So I think, like you said, isoh, I still have a chance now,
right, because he didn't.
She's not being consistent withthe message hey, we're just
friends, back off buddy type ofthing, right, and that's what
got in that.
And when, when I and listen,I've been there, I was younger
and unless you hear it's oh, Istill have a chance, right.
Charles (41:13):
But that's.
I find I feel that I'm the guyto understand and be able to
100%, 100%.
Dude, If your standard is, I'mgoing to keep pushing until I
make her have to be rude to me.
That's a problem.
That's when girls start sayingyou're a creep, right If you.
(41:34):
When girls start saying you'rea creep, right if you can't,
when you're not reading the room, right, you're not.
You're not looking things fromfrom their perspective.
You can't pick up on thenon-verbals and the yeah.
If you can't pick up on that,then you're basically saying
every girl I'm attracted to hasto like me back, or I'm going to
push her to the point whereshe's really rude to me and then
I'll probably complain abouther being a bitch or being mean
or being a tease and it's likedude, don't, whatever you have
to do to not be that guy, don'tbe that guy.
(41:55):
And yeah, I mean I don't knowthat he has it in him to be that
guy because he seems they'rewriting this character as being
very nice and very polite andvery passive and I mean all
those things.
It's okay to be those things,but yeah, you're just gonna set,
you're gonna to get things tothe point where she feels like
okay, I have to be, I have to berude if you're going to keep
(42:19):
refusing to get it, or or I justhave to be very kind of passive
with yes, I'll, I'll accept you.
You get to be my friend who hasa crush on me.
But every time you try to getout of that space, I'm gonna
shut it down.
Yeah, which is where the moreattractive thing to do for him
is to be like hey look, this is,this is the nature of the
relationship I want with you.
(42:40):
If, if you're not willing tohave that relationship with me,
then we just won't have arelationship and I'll be able to
move on to other prospects, andthat's that's okay, and that's
that's a strong and loving thingto do.
When, when somebody's notwilling to meet your needs, then
you have to be willing to sayfor yourself okay, well, I need
to be in relationships where myneeds are met and you're not
(43:01):
willing to provide that, so thiscrushy friendship I have with
you is going to get in the wayof me finding that with someone
else, so I have to leave itbehind.
Yeah, it's not easy to do, it'snot, but no, I mean, what's?
What's the other option?
You look up 10 years later andyou're still in a close
friendship with a girl thatyou're crushing on.
Dan (43:23):
Who doesn't want right and it's probably inhibited you from
doing a lot of other things andfinding a lot of other
connections right and it'sprobably not inhibiting her.
Charles (43:33):
It's, she's, she's going out there and dating the
kinds of guys she wants to bewith, and then you get to hear
the stories about it right, soshe's, she's getting her having
her cake and eating it too.
Dan (43:42):
Right, she gets she gets that friendship and that
connection from.
You.
Charles (43:46):
Which in a lot of cases , that's in a lot of cases
that's fine, that's.
She's not doing anything wrongby that.
If she's, if she'scommunicating her lack of
interest in a way that you'rejust refusing to accept it, yeah
and she keeps you around.
Dan (43:58):
That's on you, that's not on her and it's not to say that
you can't separate and then comeback as friends after you've
kind of established yourselfwith connecting with other
people and you can actually lookat the other person as just a
friend.
And I I have done that in thepast, where it's just like I was
.
I was crushing on somebody andshe's like well, I just look at
(44:21):
you as a friend and I'm like,well, I can't be just friends
with you right now.
I stopped talking to her forlike a couple of years.
It was hard because we're inyour classes and like she didn't
make it easy because she Iheard from the grapevine that
she's so upset that I wasn't afriend anymore.
Every once in a while I wasjust like, okay, so, but in and
in the end it was the best thingI ever did, because we come
(44:42):
back and we weren't ever asclose as we were at the
beginning and that wasintentional and that was a good
thing.
But you know, now it's it, it'sa pure platonic type of thing.
Charles (44:51):
It's interesting.
It's like I understand you'redisappointed that we can't be
close friends anymore, but don'tworry, the same skills that I'm
building to not get to be yourboyfriend, you get to build
those skills by not being myfriend.
It's like we'll both live withthe.
We'll both develop someresilience from not getting
exactly what we want out of thisrelationship exactly on our own
(45:12):
terms.
Yeah, so it's like yeah, I, Iappreciate that you've enjoyed
being my friend.
Maybe, maybe the guy in thescenario does have a little bit
of responsibility.
Well, I, I should have comeclean sooner and then we could
have saved us both a little bitof this discomfort yeah but I
didn't.
So here's where we are.
You want to be my closeplatonic friend.
I want to be your boyfriend.
(45:32):
Neither of us are going to getwhat we want, and hopefully that
will make us better at the nextrelationship we find ourselves
in.
Dan (45:39):
Yeah, yeah.
If only it had been.
You'd been around when I was injunior high to tell me that.
Charles (45:44):
Oh, I would have been in grade school so I wouldn't
have had I would have only hadthree quarters of this waste of
BX.
How dare you?
I knew what resilience.
Dan (45:51):
No, I didn't know what it was.
Charles (45:52):
I'd be like I would have defined what is this Our
word?
Appreciate that, or I wouldhave given you a different R
word.
All right, let's stop there fortoday, dan will.
We'll hit episode three nextwith the aftermath of the oh.
One thing I also thought was Iwant to say about Rick and
chelsea she felt like she was inreal danger during that robbery
, as any person who, the firsttime you've had a gun pointed at
(46:16):
you, you're going to feel likeI could have died.
And he was just like no, youdidn't.
I mean, on several occasionsshe's like I could have been
killed or I was almost killed orwhatever.
No, you weren't just dismissingit completely out of hand.
And then, yeah, he's a the partwhere he's a prick to her the
whole episode.
But at the very end, when hestarted feeling horny, he was
(46:37):
very happy to use her to comforthimself through some, some sex,
yeah, which, and she seemed tobe up for letting him do that.
Dan (46:46):
I mean, it was well, she came to him it was like protect
me, right and so, and then shehops on top of him.
So I feel like that was moreabout Right and so, and then she
hops on top of him.
So I feel like that was moreabout her.
You didn't really have to twisthis arm.
Charles (46:55):
Clearly he was into it Correct, yeah, but the the fact
that he, he downplayed herexperience until her experience
was.
Now.
I want physical intimacy, tofeel better about what I went
through.
Oh, okay, I can do that.
Yeah, I can't.
I can't throw a.
Yeah, that sounds really scary.
I'm sorry you went through that.
That's too much right.
Having you on my lap and turnand initiate sex with you,
(47:17):
that's easy, I can handle that.
So, yeah, I thought I thoughtthat spoke to just his, his
drives as a man, but also hisimmaturity, inability to address
things in any other way otherthan I'm gonna get mad or I'm
going to get horny.
That seems to be what he'scapable of at this point in the
show.
Dan (47:40):
Oh, I also wanted to mention at the end of this
episode.
There's a little foreshadowingthere, where dad walks away
basically to take the phone calland he's getting off the phone
trying to get that lawyer andafter he gets off the phone or
was it was the lawyer and he'sgetting off the phone trying to
get that lawyer and after hegets off the phone, or was it
was the lawyer, was he talkingto kenny?
I don't remember it might havebeen the lawyer.
Yeah, because kenny told himget a lawyer yesterday.
(48:00):
So he sees his family walkingback to the lodge or to to the
cabin and you hear loki lokitalking about when there was a
tsunami in kent.
Charles (48:13):
Yes, and the little girl was basically saying she
just studied so she knew it wascoming.
Dan (48:18):
But nobody believed her or whatever, and and and then it
like it kind of fades off and ohand so the dad, and then they,
they walk into the house andthen you see just like this look
of terror in Timothy his face,where he's just like, yeah, I
think he sees a tsunami comingand his family does yeah, that's
, that's a good point.
So I thought it was low, Ithought that was really well
(48:41):
done.
I was like Holy cow, that's,that's great, yeah.
Charles (48:43):
Yeah, man, I feel it again.
The, what we've seen so far, isthe only guy who seems to be
just acting normal, is themassage therapist that poland is
there to work with, like that'sthe only guy that's not done
anything weird yet, right?
I remember at this point thisepisode in the next episode.
I'm like man, I hope this guydoesn't get weird.
I hope they just keep him.
Yeah, so one guy who just knowshow to deal with people, knows
(49:06):
how to talk to people, doesn'tdo anything strange or show his
mental illness.
Wear it on the sleeve yeah andso far, so good yeah all right,
thanks, dan.
We'll talk to you next time,for episode three sounds good.
Thanks for listening all theway through, dan, and I
appreciate you being here.
We've got more white lotusmasculinity breakdowns coming,
so make sure to join us for thenext episode.
In the meantime, you can findfull audio and video episodes
(49:30):
and whatever else we're up toover at mindfully masculinecom.
See you next time.
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