June 4, 2025 • 43 mins
Secrets spill. Gun safety's optional. And emotional honesty? Forget about it. Welcome to Episode 4 of The White Lotus Season 3, where the Thai sun heats up the already simmering pot of fragile masculinity.
Charles and Dan break down:
- Timothy's Total Meltdown: How a patriarch's financial panic fuels gaslighting, substance abuse, and a desperate struggle to maintain a perfect facade.
- Rick's Risky Revenge: Why his deep-seated desire for vengeance is leading him down a dangerous, emotionally unhinged path.
- The Problem with Pushing Feelings Away: How characters like Saxon shut down emotional displays in others, and the real-world impact of this common male coping mechanism.
- Greg's Growing Menace: Unpacking the aloof and potentially dangerous vibes from Chloe's beau, and what his actions might mean for others at the resort.
Also on the table:
- Why "Chekhov's Gun" is a blinking neon sign in this episode.
- The connection between perfectionism and shame in the male psyche.
- Dating apps: The surprising truth about what attracts women (and why physical strength isn't the whole story).
- How generational "BS" impacts current male behavior.
Smart, honest, and sometimes brutal—just like the episode.
🚨 Spoilers for Episodes 1–4 of White Lotus Season 3 🎧 Watch and listen at mindfullymasculine.com 🌀 Next week: Episode 5. The true chaos begins.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Charles (00:00):
One of the hallmarks of the version of masculinity in
this show is that when someonedisplays any kind of an emotion
that men are uncomfortable with,they tell them.
They basically tell the peopleto knock it off.
We saw it with Chelsea crying.
We saw it with Lachlan wasacting sad that his sister's
going to, wants to move away fora year, and Saxon's like no,
(00:24):
don't't, don't act that way.
Welcome to the mindfullymasculine podcast.
This is charles.
In this episode, dan and I willcontinue our exploration of the
white lotus season three,focusing on the profound impact
of generational pressure andchallenging ways men cope with
emotional discomfort.
We'll delve into how charactersattempt to suppress feelings,
(00:47):
leading to everything fromsubstance abuse to damaging
family dynamics.
Tune in as we discuss episodefour and its powerful lessons on
authenticity and the cost ofmaintaining a false front.
Dan (01:01):
Sweaty Crabbe.
Charles (01:02):
Charles, how are you?
I have never I've neverunderstood what they were saying
or how to say it correctly.
Dan (01:07):
So neither vice.
That's why I looked it up.
Charles (01:11):
Oh, and I still probably got it wrong but be
very conscientious not not me,but I did like that.
Rick said.
What did he say?
Dan (01:17):
swatting never, as he was leaving the conversation with
those guys well, well, saxon Idon't know if you picked up on
this on the cruise, when hegrabs lock real quick.
Charles (01:27):
Let me interrupt.
Hey, everybody, we're stilltalking about white lotus,
season threes.
This is episode four, so if youhaven't seen it yet, watch it.
And then watch the listen to us, because we're gonna drop
spoilers for episodes onethrough four.
Dan (01:39):
Go ahead, dan so after, when they're on the boat, he
grabs locky to go go talk to theladies.
He's like walking over thereand he says swastika.
And like I wouldn't have pickedup on it if I hadn't listened,
if I don't watch it, if I didn'twatch the episode with without
subtitles and it was, it wasliterally.
It was spelled out exactly theway it's spelled.
(02:01):
That's hilarious, it was sofunny.
Charles (02:03):
Yeah.
Dan (02:04):
Especially coming from somebody with's spelled.
Charles (02:05):
That's hilarious, and it was so funny, yeah,
especially coming from somebodywith Austrian descent.
That's true, yeah, senegar,yeah, yeah, wow, that is, that
is very funny.
Yeah, I didn't kiss that one, Icaught.
I caught what Rick said.
Dan (02:16):
Yeah, that was the right.
It was about halfway through,it was, oh my God, I, I died.
Charles (02:21):
Yep, that's very funny.
I'm sorry I missed that.
That's good.
So this, this was a goodepisode.
I felt like the last episodenot a whole lot of stuff
happened, it was really kind ofjust buildup, and this one's
kind of buildup too, but a bitmore intense than the last one,
I would say.
Dan (02:37):
Oh, for sure.
Charles (02:38):
Yeah.
Dan (02:46):
So you think we should start with the rat lifts or with
rick?
I think probably with the ratlifts, based on, like, the
chronological order of the, Ithink, of the episode.
Right, they were.
Yeah, they really started tocrumble.
I guess is the best.
Charles (02:55):
Yeah, so we did anyway yeah, we'll start with timothy
the father, so we got to see hispenis.
That was something.
Something that was so funny.
Dan (03:05):
My sister was super excited about it.
She hadn't seen any of theepisodes yet but she was like
the first thing she said was Iwas like, oh, it's a really good
show.
And she's like, oh, yeah, Iguess you get.
You get to see whatever theactor's name is.
Yeah, you're going to see hispenis.
And I was like his name isJason Isaac, jason Isaacs.
Yeah, she's super excited aboutthat because she's a Harry
Potter freak.
Charles (03:27):
Yeah, it looked.
I wasn't 100% sure that it wasreal, that it may not have been
a computer generated, because Ilook really close.
I mean I really got in there totake a long hard look at it, so
to speak, and I don't know,maybe it was just with the
lighting, but something lookedup there.
I don't know.
They may have just may, justCGI that in.
Dan (03:46):
So, like the last time you were hooking up with Jason, like
it wasn't that big, is that?
Is that what you're basicallysaying?
Charles (03:51):
Yeah, they left.
They left the birthmark off,which I thought was weird, and
the foreskin.
Dan (03:56):
It's the magic of CGI right .
Charles (03:57):
Yeah, no, but I I mean I felt like they did it for a
reason.
They're they're basicallyshowing that this guy is.
It was not gratuitous by anymeans, it was definitely a way
he's kind of like out of it.
Yeah, exactly Like you.
Between the he's drinkingheavily.
In this episode he's hittinghis wife's lorazepam hard enough
that she's missing the, the,the quantity of the pills and
(04:20):
blaming it on jet lag.
But what really going on it ashe's taken a bunch of
psychoactive medications thathe's he's out of it.
Dan (04:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah for sure.
And as the episode goes on, hejust gets more and more fucked
up or high.
As he's going along, he justkeeps popping lorazepam and he's
drinking throughout the entireepisode.
Charles (04:43):
Yeah, and he's drinking throughout the entire episode,
yeah, and which is?
I mean, it's kind ofinteresting from a from an
evolutionary perspective, how,when we're at our highest levels
of stress, we seek out comfortor buffers that impede our
ability to handle the difficultsituation that we're in the
middle of.
(05:03):
When we're in the middle of it,it's like I'm going through
this thing.
It's so hard, I need to have mywits about me and I need to
have access to all of my mentalresources, but I'm in so much
emotional pain that instead ofinstead of doing that, I'm going
to do whatever I can to dullthe pain, which also is going to
kill my ability to react anddeal with things.
Dan (05:26):
It could be one of those things where you don't trust
yourself to be able to continueto deal with things based on
your assumption of the emotional, physical feelings that you're
having at the time.
So I would say is I know, whenI felt that way, I felt like I
didn't have the ability, with mycurrent state of being, to
handle that situation, and so Ineeded to change my state of
(05:49):
being.
Unfortunately, and yeah, you'reright, it's it's never.
It's never really for thebetter.
Charles (05:56):
No, if I've said before that if, if your solution to
problems is to get drunk, thenyou just go from being a guy
with problems to being a drunkguy with problems, yeah, yeah,
and the problems don't go away.
But I do understand the impulseto be like I just don't.
I just don't want to feel thisright now.
And it's funny when he wastoward the end of the episode,
when he's talking to his lawyer,again voiced by a podcaster and
(06:18):
author, professor ScottGalloway.
We, we share a fair amount ofhis content on our Instagram
because he has some interestingthings to say about politics,
masculinity, things like that.
And he was the voice of thelawyer.
He was setting up a rat liftwith some.
I mean, like you'll just goaway to a minimum security
(06:41):
federal prison for a few months,a minimum security federal
prison for a few months.
I mean that's a pretty gooddeal for embezzling money and
starting up a fake investmentfund and whatever else him and
kenny did together.
It's like I I think it's.
It's really the, the socialimpact that is freaking him out
and is causing him to want totry to figure out, I guess, when
he gets back to america.
(07:02):
Try to figure out, I guess whenhe gets back to America.
Try to figure out a way out ofthis.
But it's like dude, your yourlawyer's telling you he can make
a deal where all you gets acouple of months away from your
family.
Dan (07:14):
And his reaction is I'd rather die, yeah.
And then, and then he goes whatam I supposed to tell my family
?
Am I supposed to tell my familythat we're fucking poor?
And then, and then he gets offthe phone after yelling at him,
berating him, tell him to figuresomething else out.
He pukes and then he looks upand that's when he sees the
empty guard booth.
Charles (07:33):
Yes, and and did do.
Do we see what he does with theempty guard booth, or is it
just into that?
Dan (07:39):
He just so, he just you just see his head, like look up,
and he sees that the booth isempty and then it cuts to the
next scene, right?
Charles (07:47):
there Right Guy Talk comes back and his gun is
missing.
Dan (07:51):
So Guy Talk now is not doing his job again by walking
Mook, because he's flirting withher.
She had gotten dressed up forthe performance, so she's
looking all sexy and he?
I'm guessing that's not part ofhis job, right, is he's like oh
, I'll walk you, I'll walk youto like the main building from
the guardhouse, cause that'swhere they were talking.
So he leaves his post andapparently well, so you know the
(08:16):
, the gun is in the in thedrawer there.
But when he comes back he seesthat the box is like on the on
the table and it's empty, right,yeah.
He comes back, he sees that thebox is like on the on the table
and it's empty, right, yeah,yeah and a couple notes on gun
safety.
Charles (08:30):
Here you don't leave your gun out and not secured and
looked like it was a cigar box.
Dan (08:36):
It looked like it was a cigar box.
Charles (08:38):
It was hysterical the other thing that you know cast
some doubts to me on the qualityof the security infrastructure
at that resort is taking someguy to a shooting range so that
he might be able to develop somelevel of target accuracy, is
not training someone to use agun to prevent crimes.
(09:01):
That is not the same thing Likejust yeah, if you and I go to
the gun range every weekend fortwo years and we get really good
at putting little holes in thebullseye, that does not mean
that if a crime breaks out,we're going to effectively be
able to choose our targets, beaware of what's going on behind
the person that we're going toshoot to try to prevent, you
(09:21):
know, crime or death or injuryLike there's.
There's a whole lot of stuffgoing on there.
Dan (09:28):
That's like.
I feel like there's a littlebit of strategy that needs to
come in before you even pull thegun out, right?
You know what I'm saying Interms of that's got almost
nothing to do with the gun, thatthat there needs to be some
sort of training on that frontas well, right?
Which?
Charles (09:38):
is, which is what police stations and militaries
hammer into the people that joinup with them.
It's like this is not yes,being able to put the hole where
you want to put the hole isimportant, but there's a whole
lot of other stuff that you needto understand before.
Yeah, you get, you're given aprotection job that has a gun as
a tool, and so that's.
(09:59):
That's all I mean.
The gun is is obviously ablinking neon sign of
foreshadowing, like, hey, we're,we wouldn't put this in this
episode if it's not going tocome back later in this episode,
later in the series.
Blah, check off his gun, right,you don't enter, introduce a
gun and then not do anythingwith it.
Dan (10:14):
So okay, hold on, explain.
Check off guns for everybodywho's not a tracky it has
nothing to do with star trek.
Charles (10:20):
It's the author.
Dan (10:22):
Check off I thought that was like a known, like a special
episode from Star Trek thatlike was like famous for like I
don't know, some sort ofphilosophical lesson to learn.
Charles (10:33):
Now I got it.
Now I got to look at.
Dan (10:36):
Oh, that's a Star Trek Chekhov.
Are you proud?
Are you proud of me that Iremember that name from Star
Trek?
Charles (10:40):
No, absolutely Well done, chekhov's gun comes from
the Russian playwright AntonChekhov, who famously stated if
in the first act you have hung apistol on the wall, then in the
following one it should befired, otherwise don't put it
there.
Okay, yeah, so minimalist, yeah, exactly.
And so I'm sure Mike White isaware of Chekhov's work and yeah
(11:03):
, he, he would not introduce agun if, if he didn't plan on it.
Dan (11:11):
I mean the show is great because if you go back and you
listen to it, there'll besimilar type of music.
That's kind of this eerietinkling of the keys or whatever
that is in the background.
Every time you hear or you seesomething that's going to be
significant and that rears itshead again later in the show,
something that really you got tosee a little bit more of the
character of the dad in terms ofhis background.
(11:32):
One thing I really enjoyed washearing him share when he got
into that drunken state.
A lot of us get sentimental, alot of us start it's like truth,
serum, right, we start spillingout all these stories.
And he's on the boat, he'stalking to some random couple
from australia and the guy'sbeing really nice.
He's trying to engage him withconversation and he's saying, oh
(11:54):
, hey, what do you do?
He's like go on finance.
He's like, oh, that must be fun.
And I mean it's like over thetop because like yeah, really.
And he goes, yep, I'm a pillarof the community.
And he's like are you now?
And he goes, yep, I'm a pillarof the community.
And he's like are you now?
And he goes, yep, my dad was agovernor in North Carolina and
thank God he's dead.
Charles (12:10):
Grandfather oh his grandfather, okay, Dad was, a
very father was a verysuccessful businessman.
Dan (12:15):
Very, very, very successful businessman.
Charles (12:18):
he says yes that's right and thank God they're dead
.
Dan (12:22):
And he does a cheers to the heavens with his glass.
As for for these like thank God, my parents are dead, and it
goes to show like the pressurethat he's under from external
areas, but that he's obviouslyinternalized that himself too.
Charles (12:37):
Yeah, yeah, it was.
Yeah, he's.
He's definitely having someproblems and the pressure again,
I really do feel like it's thesocial pressure that is really
getting to him, more than theidea of Even the money.
I mean, I don't.
I obviously the money isimportant to him and the house
is important to him, but itreally does feel like the, the
(12:58):
reputation and his family goingfrom rich to poor because of his
actions is the thing that'ssparking this attitude of I'd
rather die than go through thison the couch next to his wife
and his wife's like what's upwith you?
Dan (13:16):
you're acting all different , obviously he's like stoned out
of his mind and drunk and he'slike no, I'm not.
And she she storms off, goes toget her bottle of lorazepam out
of her hidden purse, where onlyher and her husband knew where
it was right.
She goes in there and now it'sgone, like the entire bottle is
gone because he swiped it.
And she comes back and she goessomebody took my bottle of
lorazepam.
She's all pissed off and hegaslights her and he's like you
(13:40):
sure you didn't lose it?
You're losing stuff all thetime, right, and it just shows
like how much of a wall, afacade this guy is building up
in front of his family just toprotect what his, his own shit
that's crumbling behind thescenes yeah, and and meanwhile
he knows he it's gonna come outeventually.
Charles (13:58):
He's just kicking the can down the road a little bit.
It's not.
It's not like anything he doesis going to prevent the tidal
wave, the tsunami, from coming.
He's just like let me just pushit off for a couple of days and
, yeah, do it do it even moreharm.
Dan (14:13):
Obviously, by by trying to do that, yeah, I mean you can
mean you can see there's holesin his dam, because then his
daughter, piper, sits down nextto him and then he starts crying
and he's just like I love youso much and you can see that
he's thinking about him going tojail or going away and not
seeing her again.
Charles (14:32):
Right Meanwhile.
Again, you got to assume thatwhat the lawyer is suggesting
over the phone is probablypretty accurate, like if he's
saying, I can get you a couplemonths, he probably knows I can
get you a couple of months andit's like, yeah, I'm sure, I'm
sure that seems huge, but youknow, he's going to assuming
that he gets home and he dealswith the situation.
(14:55):
He's going to assuming that hegets home and he deals with the
situation.
He's going to get arrested andthen he's going to get either
he's probably going to getbailed out and have to release
his pass, give up his passport,and then he's going to have a
while before his trial and thenafter his trial, or or I guess,
if they make the deal, he's notgoing to go to trial but there's
going to be some period of timewhere he's not in jail and then
, once he gets sentenced,they're going to send him to a
(15:16):
minimum security, white collarfederal prison.
That I mean we learned fromoffice space that they can still
be kind of rough, but not thatrough.
I mean, yeah, so yeah it's.
I mean I don't know when, when I, when I hear about the white
collar crime, minimum securityprison stuff, my immediate
(15:41):
reaction is always like what isthe big deal?
You're like, sign me up Well, Imean listen for a couple of
months.
I mean you don't get to haveyour phone, you don't get to
have the unsupervised access tothe internet, probably.
But there's books in prison,there's gyms in prison, there's
free food in prison, and again,when it's seldom security and
you're not, you're not beingthrown into the middle of a gang
war or something, then yeah,again I'm kind of like what's
(16:04):
the big deal?
a gang where the counselors, thelawyers, yeah, exactly, yeah,
yeah, it's like you got.
You're in here now you got tochoose a side.
Are you gonna be?
Are you gonna be the I wasgonna say the the former biden
staffers or the former trumpstaffers, but they all get
pardoned, so they don't.
None of them end up in prisonanyway, but yeah, so it's.
(16:27):
It's been interesting, yeah,seeing him.
First he was gaslighting hisson last week about his career
right, buttering him up andtrying to manipulate him
emotionally, and then, yeah,seeing him do the same thing to
his wife.
It's like, yeah, he's pullingout all these these little
coping mechanisms and defensestrategies and they are.
It's terrible to watch what'sgoing on with his kids in this
(16:49):
episode.
So saxon and lachlan areLachlan's got some magic tricks.
At least that's kind of fun towatch.
Dan (16:56):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Charles (16:58):
Saxon is continuing to be himself and be kind of crass
and annoying and performativeand doing saying the things he
thinks he needs to say and doingthe things he thinks he needs
to do.
It was interesting what one ofthe hallmarks of the version of
masculinity in this show is thatwhen someone displays any kind
(17:23):
of an emotion that men areuncomfortable with, they tell
them.
They basically tell the peopleto knock it off.
We saw it with chelsea crying.
We saw it with lachlan wasacting sad that his sister's
going to, wants to move away fora year, and Saxon's like no,
don't, don't act that way.
I forget exactly what he said.
Dan (17:41):
Don't, don't hang out with, like Debbie Downer.
Basically, yeah, the sour pussover there, yeah.
Charles (17:47):
Yeah, instead of, instead of like, hey, what's
going on, let's talk aboutwhat's bothering you.
It's, it's no, stop.
Don't do that.
Ignore it.
Your feelings are making meuncomfortable, so you need to
stop it.
Dan (17:57):
Don't, don't start making me feel something.
Charles (17:59):
Yeah, look, I mean I've I've been there, I've I've I've
reacted that way to feelingsbefore and yeah, it is.
It's not helpful, it's noteffective, it's not a loving way
to be, but it does.
It can absolutely feel likethat impulse you have in the
moment when you see somebodyhaving having an experience that
you know either you don't wantto feel responsible for or
(18:19):
you're not comfortable with andyou don't know what it might
mean for you.
So therefore, you got to stopthat.
You're making me uncomfortable.
Dan (18:26):
Yeah yeah, yeah.
Charles (18:27):
So yeah, I mean saxon's clearly there to party, have a
good time and and get laid yeah,but I mean I get the impression
that he's everywhere for that,like that's, that's that's where
good point, they were inthailand or at the office, but
it's like what?
Yeah, it's his mode and that'sthat's what he cares about.
Let's see, what else did we seeabout the brothers?
It it does.
(18:50):
Yeah, I mean lachlan isdefinitely stuck with this, this
example who's just a few yearsolder, and I, I did not have an
this example who's just a fewyears older.
I did not have an older brotherwho's just a couple years older
than me.
But I imagine the pressure'sgot to be huge, especially if
they're even a moderateperformer in sports, in
scholastics, in their career,whatever it is.
(19:12):
There's got to be, I meanbrother to brother, sister to
sister.
There's got to be, I meanbrother to brother, sister to
sister.
There's got to be a lot ofpressure there, like okay, I've
got to, I've got to perform at a, at a level or above my sibling
, my older sibling, or else yeah, and also saxon is a almost a
spitting image of of their dadand the dad it's got you know
again.
Dan (19:32):
He's got all this pressure, he's got all this reputation.
Of course, saxon lockheedprobablyed probably know the
history of their family as welland the expectations that both
the mother and the father haveof them.
He's at least visualizing andhas that high level or that
(19:57):
standard that he's got in hismind.
And so, yeah, he, he wants toget there.
I think, or at least some partof him does.
And when Piper basically says,tells him the truth, that why
they're there it was for her tospend a year away, he gets upset
.
He's like, well, what about me?
She's like, well, you'll be incollege.
And at that point he feels likehis older sister kind of
abandoned him a little bit.
So that's when he walks away,she's like, don't walk away.
(20:19):
And he walks away and goes overto Saxon.
At that point he goes to theother older sibling and so you
can see there he's just kind oflike, all right, well, you don't
got my back.
So even though Saxon may not bewhere I want to be, At least I
feel like he cares and he's he'sgonna be there.
Charles (20:37):
Yeah, and he definitely took it hard the cause.
I think he identifies with hissister in in some ways more than
with his, with his brother.
Dan (20:45):
Yeah, I agree.
Charles (20:46):
Yeah, Because at least the, yeah, the, the version of
her that she is wanting to beand wanting to put out there,
definitely seems to be morelined up with who Lachlan
authentically is.
And so, yeah, the uh.
There was something else thatSaxon said.
It was either about the, oh, itwas when, when he was making
(21:09):
the protein shakes, and whenPiper was saying girls, girls
aren't into Chisuku's jackedguys, he's like how would you
know what girls are into?
Basically, and yeah, I thoughtthat was interesting.
And listen, I mean Piper doeshave a bit of a point in that.
In my own experience, girlsreally want strong men, but it's
(21:35):
emotionally strong.
That is what they're lookingfor, and a shortcut, quick way
of making that determination, atleast at some level, is okay.
Well, if he's physically strong, he's probably emotionally
strong too, because it's hard toget physically strong.
We do that shortcut in our mindwhere it's like okay, well, I
(21:58):
can't spend weeks or monthsgetting to know everybody, so
what are some easy ways that Ican look at somebody and try to
gauge what's going on insidethem?
And one of the things is like,yeah, if you have the discipline
and you have to put in enoughwork to have a strong body, then
there's probably a strong mindbehind that.
Dan (22:11):
Yeah, there's the potential then to apply that discipline
in other areas of life.
Charles (22:16):
Right yeah, potential.
Dan (22:20):
And sometimes that's all.
That's all it is.
Charles (22:22):
And that that is an interesting.
It's an interesting discussionto have and an interesting thing
to think about.
Where now it's so easy to towalk in and get a gym membership
just about anywhere, and it'salso easy to get exogenous
testosterone for your body,having a really good physique,
400 years ago, a thousand yearsago, met oh okay, this guy.
(22:46):
This guy works very hard withhis body all the time and that's
the reason that it looks thatway.
Where now the, the hardware,still says that that's the way
things work, but the softwareisn't necessarily that way
anymore.
Where it's there there areshortcuts.
I mean, still, if it was supereasy, everybody would do it.
So it's not super easy, butit's certainly not the a, a big
(23:09):
built body, is not the same.
It doesn't mean the same thingnow that it meant a thousand
years ago.
Dan (23:15):
Yeah, and I think, as men, from what I've learned and
understood, is that physicalappearance is definitely
important to women, but notnearly as it is to men, and so
even that I think we might begiving too much weight to men's
physical appearance in terms ofthe the level of attraction it
(23:39):
brings for women.
I think that's why I think alot of women are a lot slower to
get into longer termrelationships and into bed with
men, because because they theyknow that it's there's sometimes
it's more than just thephysical attributes of a man
that they need time to figureout what's under the surface, a
(24:00):
little bit more, probablybecause of what you just said.
Charles (24:04):
It depends on I mean, part of it depends on how, what
women are looking for and whatmethod they're using.
If you look at the stats ondating apps, it's like no, the
the 10% most attractive men arethe only ones that are getting
matches on most of the datingapps, and everybody all the
other guys are getting few tonone and that's and.
(24:27):
And so what are we usually?
What are they usually going off?
They're going off pictures,which is how symmetrical is the
face and how, what kind of shapeis the body and is is what
they're using.
When you're talking about thesubset of women that are looking
for men, not every woman is ondating apps, obviously, but for
the ones that are and noteveryone is that is, on, dating
(24:47):
apps are prioritizing physicalappearance, but most of the
women who are on dating apps areusing that as their as their
quick swipe left, swipe rightjudgment.
Dan (24:58):
Right.
So I think and I I can see thatlike as an initial pool to say
hey, listen, of this pool ofattractive men, at least maybe
part of them, some of them, asmall percentage of them, might
have other attributes and otherqualities.
So why not pull from the mostattractive men and look for
(25:19):
those other qualities, ratherthan the not so attractive men?
And why am I pulling from there, especially considering, from
what I understand, is theexperience of a woman on a
dating app, where they basicallyliterally have a pool of, like
a swimming pool, full of ofoptions, whereas men typically
have a lot less to choose from.
Why not pick a swimming poolthat's more, at least,
(25:41):
attractive?
Charles (25:42):
and another swimming.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
If.
If you're like, yeah, if yourattitude is, I really want a guy
with a great sense of humor,then pick among all the
good-looking guys and then seewhich of them have a good sense
of humor, the the best sense ofhumor might belong to some guy
that you consider to be reallyunattractive.
And if he's so unattractive youwouldn't want to date him or
hook up with him or hang outwith him anyway.
(26:03):
Then then why put him in yourmaybe pile with a right swipe,
when you might just, yeah, and Iget it.
And I, I think guys who on thatand and want to think they want
to get angry about it, theywant to think that it's unfair
in some way.
It's like, no, everybody's just, everybody's just doing what
they feel like they need to doto find what they need to find.
Dan (26:28):
Second of all.
Second of all, you areliterally putting yourself in
the arena for competition Likeyou were.
It's not like you're likewalking around your your normal
day and your job is you sell icecream or whatever, and you're
in and you're, you realconcentrated pool of people
where the sole thing is tocompete for attention.
(26:48):
Right, so you're not.
Yeah you can't guys should shutup about that.
Charles (27:05):
I I can do agree.
Yeah, Well, if, if, if you findthe dating app situation to be
demoralizing or a downer in someway, then don't use it and
don't put yourself into thatkind of a competition.
Dan (27:19):
And just know what you're getting into right, but then
optimize for it If you knowyou're getting in there right.
Yeah, like work on the thingsthat you feel like you want to
work on.
That will make you morecompetitive in that area.
Otherwise don't complain.
Charles (27:32):
Yeah, exactly, okay, let's talk about Rick.
So we get we finally get someinsight on what's going on with
Rick here.
In the fourth episode, he wantsto meet the guy that he
believes killed his father, whois a some kind of a hero, who
was in Thailand trying to helppoor people, and then this big
hotel owner, real developerbusiness, tycoon whatever this
(27:55):
guy is, killed him and that'swhat his mom revealed to him on
her deathbed yep and and chelseabasically has a demand that out
of him.
Dan (28:05):
He was resistant to saying anything to her and he finally
gives in and is a little bitvulnerable with her.
And it was sweet and a littleunexpected that she at the end
comes and she she hugs him after.
He says that, but it soundslike he's a vindictive, I don't
know.
Piece of work.
Charles (28:23):
Yeah, yeah, but I think she can see how, how much pain.
And I mean he he accepted herhug and he looked like a little
bit like he was comforted by it,which was nice to see.
Yeah, but yeah it, I mean again, it's kind of more
foreshadowing, like the gun.
It's like you can't, you can'ttell the audience, hey, there's
going to be a confrontationbetween this guy and this other
(28:45):
guy who he thinks killed hisfather.
It's like, yeah, this is goingto be, this is going to be a
mess.
Obviously this is going to be.
And like not having a plan ofI'm not sure if I'm going to
kill him out of revenge or not,that doesn't sound like a great
idea, right.
Dan (29:01):
She flat out asks him you know, she's like is this, is
this one of these?
You killed my father preparedto die situations.
Charles (29:08):
Right and he's like I don't know.
Yeah Like, holy cow, yeah Like.
Dan (29:14):
You're just going to be like at the whim of your
emotions when you actually seethis guy, most likely be
overwhelmed, and then perhaps dosomething stupid.
Charles (29:23):
Yeah, another session, meditation session with what's
her name the meditation lady toto work some of this stuff out,
to sort of come up with a whatis it that you want to feel?
What is it you want to do?
So we know, we know his storynow, we know what he's after and
he's got to.
He's got to fly to bangkok toto confront this guy, and so
(29:48):
we'll we'll see more about thatin episode five but if you're
sorry to cut you off, if youremember, though, the meditation
teacher did say before he wentto Bangkok.
Dan (29:58):
She grabbed him and she's like you touched my heart, I'd
love to have another sessionwith you.
And basically kind of like ahey, I'm trying to save you here
, a little bit almost, and he'slike nah, I'm going to Bangkok.
Charles (30:09):
Yeah, it's sad that they weren't able to get
together and I don't know if shewould have helped or changed
his mind or anything, but itwould have been nice to see.
But yeah, it really it'sinteresting to see how he builds
this whole identity of at somepoint he was a powerless kid,
that stuff happened to that hecouldn't control it.
(30:31):
At some point he was apowerless kid, that stuff
happened to that he couldn'tcontrol it.
And now you see him exerting amix of control and detachment
with his girlfriend and I meanyou can see he's really trying
to his relationship with her.
He's he's basically manhandlingit and strangling it so that it
gives him exactly what he needsand he doesn't have to put
anything into it that he doesn'twant to.
(30:52):
Yeah, and she has to push andprod for anything from him and
it's just, it's a, it's a methodfor a guy who feels out of
control to be a little bit incontrol of something.
Yeah.
Dan (31:04):
Yeah, and and I think you're right with his identity
that's why he didn't want tomeet with that meditation
instructor, because I think hewas afraid she was going to
change his mind and he needed he.
He like he came all that way.
He absolutely needs to see thisto completion, so he absolutely
had to go to Bangkok and, yeah,I think he just didn't want to
(31:25):
change his identity, or hewasn't even open to changing at
that point.
Charles (31:29):
Yeah, yeah it's.
It's sad to watch all these,all these guys who just they
feel I mean it's a.
It speaks to a lack ofresilience.
When you see guys working thishard to put on such a mask of
what's going on with them, likethey're all kind of in denial of
(31:49):
.
I can't handle the world as itreally is or me as I really am.
So time to put on the put onthe makeup and get on the stage
so that people can see.
You know what, what I'mpretending to be.
Yeah, yeah.
Dan (32:05):
To go back to the dad.
I just remember him sitting atdinner with Piper and the mom
and she's like, yeah, that was,that was a crazy experience on
the boat, right, it was likethis luxury cruise and she had
to talk to a couple of strangersand she couldn't handle it
because she didn't have herlittle Razzapam.
She says she almost had a grandmal seizure having to deal with
those people, right, and she'slike they could have been.
(32:27):
They could have been criminalsand they could have been.
They could have been tax cheats.
And then piper's like, yeah,y'all probably cheat on your
taxes.
And she's like, right, well,not enough to leave the country.
And then they shoot the, thecamera over to the dad's face.
He's like, oh, that's like okay, and and she's like you should
be so lucky, piper, that yourdad's an actual boy scout.
And the dad is getting more andmore uncomfortable knowing what
(32:50):
a facade he's he's putting on.
And that's when he gets up fromthe table and he that's when he
grabs the phone from pam andthen calling a lawyer who's like
, yeah, yeah, the, the guy kennyis gonna kenny win, is turning
over and he's talking to thefeds and he's gonna say
everything and that's right andthat that led him to getting the
gun.
And I just I love the way theybasically will throw lines that
(33:16):
are innocent.
But then the dad hears it andit's just like, oh, it applies
to him, right.
So when, after he steals thegun, he's walking back and to
the bungalow and Pam stops himand she goes I think you've got
something, are you ready to giveit back?
Right, and everybody's thinking, oh, it's the gun.
And then she's like your phone.
(33:36):
And he's like, oh yeah, she'slike, hopefully you won't be
needing this anymore and he'slike I won't.
And so when I, when I saw thatagain, I'm like, oh, he's
probably thinking he's going tokill himself.
Charles (33:53):
That's why he won't need his phone anymore.
Exactly, yeah, and it's.
It's so tough, I mean, for bothhim and Rick, and probably I
was thinking with with hislittle speech about my
grandfather was a governor ofNorth Carolina.
My father was a very, very,very successful business.
It's like you could very easilysee a scenario where 10, 15, 20
years Saxon's given that samespeech.
My great grandfather wasgovernor of North Carolina.
My grandfather was a verysuccessful, very, very
successful businessman.
(34:13):
My father we don't talk abouthim, but yeah, it's it really
that that generational BS reallydoes sort of roll downhill.
And yeah, and the thing withwith Timothy in particular, it's
like when you build up thiskind of pseudo stoic facade of
(34:34):
I'm the patriarch, I'm theprovider, it's like at some
point, that mask that you'vebeen carrying along with you for
so long it becomes.
It becomes a friend that youdon't want to say goodbye to.
It becomes it becomes a friendthat you don't want to say
(34:54):
goodbye to.
And this situation with hislegal situation, it's like, okay
, it's good.
If you want to make it throughthis with the best possible
result, based on the choices youmade 15 years ago or whatever
it is, you've got to be honestabout not being the person that
you've claimed to be, and that'swhen, that that's what sparks
reactions like oh, I'd ratherdie.
Dan (35:14):
Yeah.
So question for you you thinkalso there's a little some some
perfectionist tendencies inthere.
I picked that up when the mom'slike, oh, you're so lucky that
your dad's an actual boy scout,which to me kind of shows this,
this facade of of, yeah, he'sperfect, he does nothing wrong,
right, when I hear Boy Scout,that's what I'm thinking of and
so maybe maybe that's part ofhis facade as well, as he's
(35:36):
basically perfect.
And even I think even in thatearlier episodes the wife is
like you've got it all, you'vegot money and success and a
great family, and da, da, da, da, da.
And like basically this quoteunquote perfect life
quote-unquote perfect life?
Charles (35:55):
well, yes, and, and as as I've learned from the
brilliant work of bernie brown,perfectionism and shame are just
opposite sides of the same coin.
You don't have one without theother.
So I think, yeah, his shame isnot just about like, yeah, 15
years ago I did this illegalthing to make a couple extra
million, 10 million millionextra bucks, I think it's.
Also I never measured up to theexample of my grandfather or my
(36:18):
dad, and I've been strugglingto measure up to it and I never
did so.
I've never been good enough.
So that prompt that thatmotivated him to take some
shortcuts he shouldn't havetaken and also motivates him to
not really be somebody that hiswife or his kids could actually
know.
Dan (36:33):
Yeah, yeah.
Charles (36:34):
And and I wonder, I wonder how much of that, that
distance and that pseudo selfhe's created is.
I wonder how much of the wife'sVictoria, is that her name?
Dan (36:46):
Yeah.
Charles (36:47):
Yeah, how?
How much of of his just livingwith him being the way that he
is is causing her to look forthings to soothe her unmet needs
, like a crap ton of lorazepamevery day.
Dan (37:00):
And and and can't handle a cruise with some strangers.
She's like I almost had aseizure, having to deal with
that without her lorazepam.
So clearly she's saying shecan't handle anything slightly
uncomfortable either.
Charles (37:13):
Right, and I'm not saying that any everybody's
mental illness is the result ofthe people close to them not
treating them right.
But I think she she has gottenherself into a marriage and a
family situation where the guyseems completely checked out on
everything except keeping hisbusiness and his reputation
going and so that does grind onpeople after a time.
(37:36):
That doesn't.
That doesn't make himresponsible for her, her anxiety
disorder she has one, but italso it's not helping.
Dan (37:42):
Yeah, yeah, she one of the things that she mentions at
dinner is like, oh, these peopleare not like.
The people at the oh piper islike, hey, you're fine, you're
fine at the club with otherpeople.
And she's like, yeah, butthey're, they're good people,
they come from good families.
And then shoot, the cameramoves in the dad and the dad is
like scratching his head, like,oh my God, the club, thinking
about all the people he knows atthe club.
(38:04):
So you're totally right.
Yeah, it's just, he just thinkof all the social, outside
social pressures and thereputation he's got.
Charles (38:20):
Yeah it's, yeah it's, it's.
It's so interesting to watchthese, these rich fancy people
in this rich fancy setting, butjust having to deal with the
same kinds of pressures, just atdifferent levels and in
different ways, as all of usnormies have to deal with too.
Dan (38:30):
Yeah.
Charles (38:30):
Yeah, all right.
So Greg slash Gary not not awhole lot have to deal with too.
Yeah, yeah, all right.
So Greg slash Gary not not awhole lot of interesting stuff
with him.
I mean he, he really is thequintessential supporting
character.
I mean stuff just kind ofunfolds around him and he's kind
of mysterious, kind ofinteresting.
But we we don't, we never gotoo deep on Greg slash Gary and
what's really going on with him.
(38:51):
But it is interesting to seethings, see how other people
react to him and see how thingsunfold around him.
But yeah, he's.
Yeah, belinda is starting tofigure out a little bit more
about what's going on with himand so that's plugging in a
little bit more mystery anddrama into the show.
But yeah, he's kind of a blankslate or a mirror that you just
see other people in the contextof how they deal with him.
Dan (39:14):
Yeah, I remember one of the scenes that really kind of
underscores what you just saidabout his character was when
Saxon first comes on board hehugs Chloe because she's the one
who invited them, right, andthen he introduces himself to
Greg and he's like hey, saxon,and he goes yeah, hi, doesn't,
doesn't give his name at all,and so it really it shows that
(39:38):
he, how aloof he really is beingwith everybody.
Charles (39:42):
Yeah, he does not seem to have much use for Saxon in
particular because he, he andlook, that's part of the issue
with a lot of the guys that wereon that boat.
It's like when you're catchinggirls based on nothing except
how much money you have in thebank or how professionally
successful you are, you alwayskind of have to be on the
(40:04):
lookout for a more successfulshark that's out there to
potentially steal yourgirlfriend.
Yeah, and in Saxon's case hecomes from money, at least he
does right now, and it looksthat it's very clear.
Saxon's case he comes frommoney, at least he does right
now, and it looks that it's veryclear.
It looks that way that he comesfrom money and he's also quite
a bit younger and quite a bitmore attractive.
So what reason would Greg havefor liking him?
Dan (40:24):
Good point, good point.
Charles (40:26):
Right when?
Yeah, I think, I think it's.
It's very possible that he seeshim as a threat.
Dan (40:31):
Yeah, definitely think that in the in this situation
especially I think this was atthe last episode where he caught
Chloe waving at Saxon at dinner.
So she he knows something'sgoing on, either staring, or
waving or something.
Charles (40:42):
Yeah, there was definitely.
Dan (40:43):
Oh, they're staring.
That's what it was.
And then he, then Saxon, givesher a little, a little wave into
the bottle.
Charles (40:54):
That's what it was.
Yeah, greg, greg picked up onsomething there, and so when he
sees him again on on his boat,it's like okay, yeah, so, but
you're always.
Dan (40:58):
But I was like wondering, this guy's dangerous right?
Clearly he did something to hisex-wife, so what's, what's?
I think this what's he got instore now for Saxon or anybody
else that's on that boat.
Yeah.
Charles (41:09):
Who's a threat exactly?
We and, and that's the other.
Does he care about this girlenough to risk something like
that?
Or again, we never really knewexactly what his involvement was
with his ex-wife's death.
But yeah is like is this thekind of guy that could go after
some young kid who's putting themoves on his girlfriend?
(41:30):
Or does he not care?
He's got his money and he seesgirls like her as
interchangeable.
So maybe, maybe it doesn'tmatter.
We, we don't know at this point.
Dan (41:39):
Yeah, and the.
The episode closes out withGreg in a dark room they're
typing on the on his computerand then you see he's looking up
Belinda and she, he seespictures of her and his son, her
son, there.
So and, and that was whileeverybody else chloe and
everybody and the kids were onthe boat going to a full moon
(42:00):
party at that island, becausechloe had begged him to allow
them to take the boat and he hadto, like, do some business,
that's what, that's what thebusiness he was doing.
And right then the next sceneis saxon coming from, coming
from the inside on the boat.
He's got a drink in his hand,he goes, shit's about to get
crazy.
And then they, they kind ofclose out the episode.
And it was a great teaserbecause, yeah, you can see
(42:22):
everything getting buildingbetween the dad.
Now Greg is looking up Belinda.
He might, he might kill Belinda.
The girls and the guys areunsupervised quote unquote on
the boat drinking, going to amoon party.
Yeah, so I think this was yeahas episode four.
It really led to some, someintrigue for the future episodes
yeah, I'm looking forward tothe next one.
Charles (42:43):
So let's stop there for now and we will chat next time
about episode five sounds goodthanks, dan, thanks.
Thanks so much for stickingwith us through the whole
episode, dan, and I certainlyappreciate it.
That'll wrap up our discussionon the white lotus season three,
episode four.
Thanks again for listening.
Join us next time.
We're going to get into episodefive and explore what new
(43:04):
challenges and revelations awaitthe men of this luxurious,
chaotic resort.
One of the hallmarks of the version of masculinity in
this show is that when someonedisplays any kind of an emotion
that men are uncomfortable with,they tell them.
They basically tell the peopleto knock it off.
We saw it with Chelsea crying.
We saw it with Lachlan wasacting sad that his sister's
going to, wants to move away fora year, and Saxon's like no,
(00:24):
don't't, don't act that way.
Welcome to the mindfullymasculine podcast.
This is charles.
In this episode, dan and I willcontinue our exploration of the
white lotus season three,focusing on the profound impact
of generational pressure andchallenging ways men cope with
emotional discomfort.
We'll delve into how charactersattempt to suppress feelings,
(00:47):
leading to everything fromsubstance abuse to damaging
family dynamics.
Tune in as we discuss episodefour and its powerful lessons on
authenticity and the cost ofmaintaining a false front.
Dan (01:01):
Sweaty Crabbe.
Charles (01:02):
Charles, how are you?
I have never I've neverunderstood what they were saying
or how to say it correctly.
Dan (01:07):
So neither vice.
That's why I looked it up.
Charles (01:11):
Oh, and I still probably got it wrong but be
very conscientious not not me,but I did like that.
Rick said.
What did he say?
Dan (01:17):
swatting never, as he was leaving the conversation with
those guys well, well, saxon Idon't know if you picked up on
this on the cruise, when hegrabs lock real quick.
Charles (01:27):
Let me interrupt.
Hey, everybody, we're stilltalking about white lotus,
season threes.
This is episode four, so if youhaven't seen it yet, watch it.
And then watch the listen to us, because we're gonna drop
spoilers for episodes onethrough four.
Dan (01:39):
Go ahead, dan so after, when they're on the boat, he
grabs locky to go go talk to theladies.
He's like walking over thereand he says swastika.
And like I wouldn't have pickedup on it if I hadn't listened,
if I don't watch it, if I didn'twatch the episode with without
subtitles and it was, it wasliterally.
It was spelled out exactly theway it's spelled.
(02:01):
That's hilarious, it was sofunny.
Charles (02:03):
Yeah.
Dan (02:04):
Especially coming from somebody with's spelled.
Charles (02:05):
That's hilarious, and it was so funny, yeah,
especially coming from somebodywith Austrian descent.
That's true, yeah, senegar,yeah, yeah, wow, that is, that
is very funny.
Yeah, I didn't kiss that one, Icaught.
I caught what Rick said.
Dan (02:16):
Yeah, that was the right.
It was about halfway through,it was, oh my God, I, I died.
Charles (02:21):
Yep, that's very funny.
I'm sorry I missed that.
That's good.
So this, this was a goodepisode.
I felt like the last episodenot a whole lot of stuff
happened, it was really kind ofjust buildup, and this one's
kind of buildup too, but a bitmore intense than the last one,
I would say.
Dan (02:37):
Oh, for sure.
Charles (02:38):
Yeah.
Dan (02:46):
So you think we should start with the rat lifts or with
rick?
I think probably with the ratlifts, based on, like, the
chronological order of the, Ithink, of the episode.
Right, they were.
Yeah, they really started tocrumble.
I guess is the best.
Charles (02:55):
Yeah, so we did anyway yeah, we'll start with timothy
the father, so we got to see hispenis.
That was something.
Something that was so funny.
Dan (03:05):
My sister was super excited about it.
She hadn't seen any of theepisodes yet but she was like
the first thing she said was Iwas like, oh, it's a really good
show.
And she's like, oh, yeah, Iguess you get.
You get to see whatever theactor's name is.
Yeah, you're going to see hispenis.
And I was like his name isJason Isaac, jason Isaacs.
Yeah, she's super excited aboutthat because she's a Harry
Potter freak.
Charles (03:27):
Yeah, it looked.
I wasn't 100% sure that it wasreal, that it may not have been
a computer generated, because Ilook really close.
I mean I really got in there totake a long hard look at it, so
to speak, and I don't know,maybe it was just with the
lighting, but something lookedup there.
I don't know.
They may have just may, justCGI that in.
Dan (03:46):
So, like the last time you were hooking up with Jason, like
it wasn't that big, is that?
Is that what you're basicallysaying?
Charles (03:51):
Yeah, they left.
They left the birthmark off,which I thought was weird, and
the foreskin.
Dan (03:56):
It's the magic of CGI right .
Charles (03:57):
Yeah, no, but I I mean I felt like they did it for a
reason.
They're they're basicallyshowing that this guy is.
It was not gratuitous by anymeans, it was definitely a way
he's kind of like out of it.
Yeah, exactly Like you.
Between the he's drinkingheavily.
In this episode he's hittinghis wife's lorazepam hard enough
that she's missing the, the,the quantity of the pills and
(04:20):
blaming it on jet lag.
But what really going on it ashe's taken a bunch of
psychoactive medications thathe's he's out of it.
Dan (04:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah for sure.
And as the episode goes on, hejust gets more and more fucked
up or high.
As he's going along, he justkeeps popping lorazepam and he's
drinking throughout the entireepisode.
Charles (04:43):
Yeah, and he's drinking throughout the entire episode,
yeah, and which is?
I mean, it's kind ofinteresting from a from an
evolutionary perspective, how,when we're at our highest levels
of stress, we seek out comfortor buffers that impede our
ability to handle the difficultsituation that we're in the
middle of.
(05:03):
When we're in the middle of it,it's like I'm going through
this thing.
It's so hard, I need to have mywits about me and I need to
have access to all of my mentalresources, but I'm in so much
emotional pain that instead ofinstead of doing that, I'm going
to do whatever I can to dullthe pain, which also is going to
kill my ability to react anddeal with things.
Dan (05:26):
It could be one of those things where you don't trust
yourself to be able to continueto deal with things based on
your assumption of the emotional, physical feelings that you're
having at the time.
So I would say is I know, whenI felt that way, I felt like I
didn't have the ability, with mycurrent state of being, to
handle that situation, and so Ineeded to change my state of
(05:49):
being.
Unfortunately, and yeah, you'reright, it's it's never.
It's never really for thebetter.
Charles (05:56):
No, if I've said before that if, if your solution to
problems is to get drunk, thenyou just go from being a guy
with problems to being a drunkguy with problems, yeah, yeah,
and the problems don't go away.
But I do understand the impulseto be like I just don't.
I just don't want to feel thisright now.
And it's funny when he wastoward the end of the episode,
when he's talking to his lawyer,again voiced by a podcaster and
(06:18):
author, professor ScottGalloway.
We, we share a fair amount ofhis content on our Instagram
because he has some interestingthings to say about politics,
masculinity, things like that.
And he was the voice of thelawyer.
He was setting up a rat liftwith some.
I mean, like you'll just goaway to a minimum security
(06:41):
federal prison for a few months,a minimum security federal
prison for a few months.
I mean that's a pretty gooddeal for embezzling money and
starting up a fake investmentfund and whatever else him and
kenny did together.
It's like I I think it's.
It's really the, the socialimpact that is freaking him out
and is causing him to want totry to figure out, I guess, when
he gets back to america.
(07:02):
Try to figure out, I guess whenhe gets back to America.
Try to figure out a way out ofthis.
But it's like dude, your yourlawyer's telling you he can make
a deal where all you gets acouple of months away from your
family.
Dan (07:14):
And his reaction is I'd rather die, yeah.
And then, and then he goes whatam I supposed to tell my family
?
Am I supposed to tell my familythat we're fucking poor?
And then, and then he gets offthe phone after yelling at him,
berating him, tell him to figuresomething else out.
He pukes and then he looks upand that's when he sees the
empty guard booth.
Charles (07:33):
Yes, and and did do.
Do we see what he does with theempty guard booth, or is it
just into that?
Dan (07:39):
He just so, he just you just see his head, like look up,
and he sees that the booth isempty and then it cuts to the
next scene, right?
Charles (07:47):
there Right Guy Talk comes back and his gun is
missing.
Dan (07:51):
So Guy Talk now is not doing his job again by walking
Mook, because he's flirting withher.
She had gotten dressed up forthe performance, so she's
looking all sexy and he?
I'm guessing that's not part ofhis job, right, is he's like oh
, I'll walk you, I'll walk youto like the main building from
the guardhouse, cause that'swhere they were talking.
So he leaves his post andapparently well, so you know the
(08:16):
, the gun is in the in thedrawer there.
But when he comes back he seesthat the box is like on the on
the table and it's empty, right,yeah.
He comes back, he sees that thebox is like on the on the table
and it's empty, right, yeah,yeah and a couple notes on gun
safety.
Charles (08:30):
Here you don't leave your gun out and not secured and
looked like it was a cigar box.
Dan (08:36):
It looked like it was a cigar box.
Charles (08:38):
It was hysterical the other thing that you know cast
some doubts to me on the qualityof the security infrastructure
at that resort is taking someguy to a shooting range so that
he might be able to develop somelevel of target accuracy, is
not training someone to use agun to prevent crimes.
(09:01):
That is not the same thing Likejust yeah, if you and I go to
the gun range every weekend fortwo years and we get really good
at putting little holes in thebullseye, that does not mean
that if a crime breaks out,we're going to effectively be
able to choose our targets, beaware of what's going on behind
the person that we're going toshoot to try to prevent, you
(09:21):
know, crime or death or injuryLike there's.
There's a whole lot of stuffgoing on there.
Dan (09:28):
That's like.
I feel like there's a littlebit of strategy that needs to
come in before you even pull thegun out, right?
You know what I'm saying Interms of that's got almost
nothing to do with the gun, thatthat there needs to be some
sort of training on that frontas well, right?
Which?
Charles (09:38):
is, which is what police stations and militaries
hammer into the people that joinup with them.
It's like this is not yes,being able to put the hole where
you want to put the hole isimportant, but there's a whole
lot of other stuff that you needto understand before.
Yeah, you get, you're given aprotection job that has a gun as
a tool, and so that's.
(09:59):
That's all I mean.
The gun is is obviously ablinking neon sign of
foreshadowing, like, hey, we're,we wouldn't put this in this
episode if it's not going tocome back later in this episode,
later in the series.
Blah, check off his gun, right,you don't enter, introduce a
gun and then not do anythingwith it.
Dan (10:14):
So okay, hold on, explain.
Check off guns for everybodywho's not a tracky it has
nothing to do with star trek.
Charles (10:20):
It's the author.
Dan (10:22):
Check off I thought that was like a known, like a special
episode from Star Trek thatlike was like famous for like I
don't know, some sort ofphilosophical lesson to learn.
Charles (10:33):
Now I got it.
Now I got to look at.
Dan (10:36):
Oh, that's a Star Trek Chekhov.
Are you proud?
Are you proud of me that Iremember that name from Star
Trek?
Charles (10:40):
No, absolutely Well done, chekhov's gun comes from
the Russian playwright AntonChekhov, who famously stated if
in the first act you have hung apistol on the wall, then in the
following one it should befired, otherwise don't put it
there.
Okay, yeah, so minimalist, yeah, exactly.
And so I'm sure Mike White isaware of Chekhov's work and yeah
(11:03):
, he, he would not introduce agun if, if he didn't plan on it.
Dan (11:11):
I mean the show is great because if you go back and you
listen to it, there'll besimilar type of music.
That's kind of this eerietinkling of the keys or whatever
that is in the background.
Every time you hear or you seesomething that's going to be
significant and that rears itshead again later in the show,
something that really you got tosee a little bit more of the
character of the dad in terms ofhis background.
(11:32):
One thing I really enjoyed washearing him share when he got
into that drunken state.
A lot of us get sentimental, alot of us start it's like truth,
serum, right, we start spillingout all these stories.
And he's on the boat, he'stalking to some random couple
from australia and the guy'sbeing really nice.
He's trying to engage him withconversation and he's saying, oh
(11:54):
, hey, what do you do?
He's like go on finance.
He's like, oh, that must be fun.
And I mean it's like over thetop because like yeah, really.
And he goes, yep, I'm a pillarof the community.
And he's like are you now?
And he goes, yep, I'm a pillarof the community.
And he's like are you now?
And he goes, yep, my dad was agovernor in North Carolina and
thank God he's dead.
Charles (12:10):
Grandfather oh his grandfather, okay, Dad was, a
very father was a verysuccessful businessman.
Dan (12:15):
Very, very, very successful businessman.
Charles (12:18):
he says yes that's right and thank God they're dead
.
Dan (12:22):
And he does a cheers to the heavens with his glass.
As for for these like thank God, my parents are dead, and it
goes to show like the pressurethat he's under from external
areas, but that he's obviouslyinternalized that himself too.
Charles (12:37):
Yeah, yeah, it was.
Yeah, he's.
He's definitely having someproblems and the pressure again,
I really do feel like it's thesocial pressure that is really
getting to him, more than theidea of Even the money.
I mean, I don't.
I obviously the money isimportant to him and the house
is important to him, but itreally does feel like the, the
(12:58):
reputation and his family goingfrom rich to poor because of his
actions is the thing that'ssparking this attitude of I'd
rather die than go through thison the couch next to his wife
and his wife's like what's upwith you?
Dan (13:16):
you're acting all different , obviously he's like stoned out
of his mind and drunk and he'slike no, I'm not.
And she she storms off, goes toget her bottle of lorazepam out
of her hidden purse, where onlyher and her husband knew where
it was right.
She goes in there and now it'sgone, like the entire bottle is
gone because he swiped it.
And she comes back and she goessomebody took my bottle of
lorazepam.
She's all pissed off and hegaslights her and he's like you
(13:40):
sure you didn't lose it?
You're losing stuff all thetime, right, and it just shows
like how much of a wall, afacade this guy is building up
in front of his family just toprotect what his, his own shit
that's crumbling behind thescenes yeah, and and meanwhile
he knows he it's gonna come outeventually.
Charles (13:58):
He's just kicking the can down the road a little bit.
It's not.
It's not like anything he doesis going to prevent the tidal
wave, the tsunami, from coming.
He's just like let me just pushit off for a couple of days and
, yeah, do it do it even moreharm.
Dan (14:13):
Obviously, by by trying to do that, yeah, I mean you can
mean you can see there's holesin his dam, because then his
daughter, piper, sits down nextto him and then he starts crying
and he's just like I love youso much and you can see that
he's thinking about him going tojail or going away and not
seeing her again.
Charles (14:32):
Right Meanwhile.
Again, you got to assume thatwhat the lawyer is suggesting
over the phone is probablypretty accurate, like if he's
saying, I can get you a couplemonths, he probably knows I can
get you a couple of months andit's like, yeah, I'm sure, I'm
sure that seems huge, but youknow, he's going to assuming
that he gets home and he dealswith the situation.
(14:55):
He's going to assuming that hegets home and he deals with the
situation.
He's going to get arrested andthen he's going to get either
he's probably going to getbailed out and have to release
his pass, give up his passport,and then he's going to have a
while before his trial and thenafter his trial, or or I guess,
if they make the deal, he's notgoing to go to trial but there's
going to be some period of timewhere he's not in jail and then
, once he gets sentenced,they're going to send him to a
(15:16):
minimum security, white collarfederal prison.
That I mean we learned fromoffice space that they can still
be kind of rough, but not thatrough.
I mean, yeah, so yeah it's.
I mean I don't know when, when I, when I hear about the white
collar crime, minimum securityprison stuff, my immediate
(15:41):
reaction is always like what isthe big deal?
You're like, sign me up Well, Imean listen for a couple of
months.
I mean you don't get to haveyour phone, you don't get to
have the unsupervised access tothe internet, probably.
But there's books in prison,there's gyms in prison, there's
free food in prison, and again,when it's seldom security and
you're not, you're not beingthrown into the middle of a gang
war or something, then yeah,again I'm kind of like what's
(16:04):
the big deal?
a gang where the counselors, thelawyers, yeah, exactly, yeah,
yeah, it's like you got.
You're in here now you got tochoose a side.
Are you gonna be?
Are you gonna be the I wasgonna say the the former biden
staffers or the former trumpstaffers, but they all get
pardoned, so they don't.
None of them end up in prisonanyway, but yeah, so it's.
(16:27):
It's been interesting, yeah,seeing him.
First he was gaslighting hisson last week about his career
right, buttering him up andtrying to manipulate him
emotionally, and then, yeah,seeing him do the same thing to
his wife.
It's like, yeah, he's pullingout all these these little
coping mechanisms and defensestrategies and they are.
It's terrible to watch what'sgoing on with his kids in this
(16:49):
episode.
So saxon and lachlan areLachlan's got some magic tricks.
At least that's kind of fun towatch.
Dan (16:56):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Charles (16:58):
Saxon is continuing to be himself and be kind of crass
and annoying and performativeand doing saying the things he
thinks he needs to say and doingthe things he thinks he needs
to do.
It was interesting what one ofthe hallmarks of the version of
masculinity in this show is thatwhen someone displays any kind
(17:23):
of an emotion that men areuncomfortable with, they tell
them.
They basically tell the peopleto knock it off.
We saw it with chelsea crying.
We saw it with lachlan wasacting sad that his sister's
going to, wants to move away fora year, and Saxon's like no,
don't, don't act that way.
I forget exactly what he said.
Dan (17:41):
Don't, don't hang out with, like Debbie Downer.
Basically, yeah, the sour pussover there, yeah.
Charles (17:47):
Yeah, instead of, instead of like, hey, what's
going on, let's talk aboutwhat's bothering you.
It's, it's no, stop.
Don't do that.
Ignore it.
Your feelings are making meuncomfortable, so you need to
stop it.
Dan (17:57):
Don't, don't start making me feel something.
Charles (17:59):
Yeah, look, I mean I've I've been there, I've I've I've
reacted that way to feelingsbefore and yeah, it is.
It's not helpful, it's noteffective, it's not a loving way
to be, but it does.
It can absolutely feel likethat impulse you have in the
moment when you see somebodyhaving having an experience that
you know either you don't wantto feel responsible for or
(18:19):
you're not comfortable with andyou don't know what it might
mean for you.
So therefore, you got to stopthat.
You're making me uncomfortable.
Dan (18:26):
Yeah yeah, yeah.
Charles (18:27):
So yeah, I mean saxon's clearly there to party, have a
good time and and get laid yeah,but I mean I get the impression
that he's everywhere for that,like that's, that's that's where
good point, they were inthailand or at the office, but
it's like what?
Yeah, it's his mode and that'sthat's what he cares about.
Let's see, what else did we seeabout the brothers?
It it does.
(18:50):
Yeah, I mean lachlan isdefinitely stuck with this, this
example who's just a few yearsolder, and I, I did not have an
this example who's just a fewyears older.
I did not have an older brotherwho's just a couple years older
than me.
But I imagine the pressure'sgot to be huge, especially if
they're even a moderateperformer in sports, in
scholastics, in their career,whatever it is.
(19:12):
There's got to be, I meanbrother to brother, sister to
sister.
There's got to be, I meanbrother to brother, sister to
sister.
There's got to be a lot ofpressure there, like okay, I've
got to, I've got to perform at a, at a level or above my sibling
, my older sibling, or else yeah, and also saxon is a almost a
spitting image of of their dadand the dad it's got you know
again.
Dan (19:32):
He's got all this pressure, he's got all this reputation.
Of course, saxon lockheedprobablyed probably know the
history of their family as welland the expectations that both
the mother and the father haveof them.
He's at least visualizing andhas that high level or that
(19:57):
standard that he's got in hismind.
And so, yeah, he, he wants toget there.
I think, or at least some partof him does.
And when Piper basically says,tells him the truth, that why
they're there it was for her tospend a year away, he gets upset
.
He's like, well, what about me?
She's like, well, you'll be incollege.
And at that point he feels likehis older sister kind of
abandoned him a little bit.
So that's when he walks away,she's like, don't walk away.
(20:19):
And he walks away and goes overto Saxon.
At that point he goes to theother older sibling and so you
can see there he's just kind oflike, all right, well, you don't
got my back.
So even though Saxon may not bewhere I want to be, At least I
feel like he cares and he's he'sgonna be there.
Charles (20:37):
Yeah, and he definitely took it hard the cause.
I think he identifies with hissister in in some ways more than
with his, with his brother.
Dan (20:45):
Yeah, I agree.
Charles (20:46):
Yeah, Because at least the, yeah, the, the version of
her that she is wanting to beand wanting to put out there,
definitely seems to be morelined up with who Lachlan
authentically is.
And so, yeah, the uh.
There was something else thatSaxon said.
It was either about the, oh, itwas when, when he was making
(21:09):
the protein shakes, and whenPiper was saying girls, girls
aren't into Chisuku's jackedguys, he's like how would you
know what girls are into?
Basically, and yeah, I thoughtthat was interesting.
And listen, I mean Piper doeshave a bit of a point in that.
In my own experience, girlsreally want strong men, but it's
(21:35):
emotionally strong.
That is what they're lookingfor, and a shortcut, quick way
of making that determination, atleast at some level, is okay.
Well, if he's physically strong, he's probably emotionally
strong too, because it's hard toget physically strong.
We do that shortcut in our mindwhere it's like okay, well, I
(21:58):
can't spend weeks or monthsgetting to know everybody, so
what are some easy ways that Ican look at somebody and try to
gauge what's going on insidethem?
And one of the things is like,yeah, if you have the discipline
and you have to put in enoughwork to have a strong body, then
there's probably a strong mindbehind that.
Dan (22:11):
Yeah, there's the potential then to apply that discipline
in other areas of life.
Charles (22:16):
Right yeah, potential.
Dan (22:20):
And sometimes that's all.
That's all it is.
Charles (22:22):
And that that is an interesting.
It's an interesting discussionto have and an interesting thing
to think about.
Where now it's so easy to towalk in and get a gym membership
just about anywhere, and it'salso easy to get exogenous
testosterone for your body,having a really good physique,
400 years ago, a thousand yearsago, met oh okay, this guy.
(22:46):
This guy works very hard withhis body all the time and that's
the reason that it looks thatway.
Where now the, the hardware,still says that that's the way
things work, but the softwareisn't necessarily that way
anymore.
Where it's there there areshortcuts.
I mean, still, if it was supereasy, everybody would do it.
So it's not super easy, butit's certainly not the a, a big
(23:09):
built body, is not the same.
It doesn't mean the same thingnow that it meant a thousand
years ago.
Dan (23:15):
Yeah, and I think, as men, from what I've learned and
understood, is that physicalappearance is definitely
important to women, but notnearly as it is to men, and so
even that I think we might begiving too much weight to men's
physical appearance in terms ofthe the level of attraction it
(23:39):
brings for women.
I think that's why I think alot of women are a lot slower to
get into longer termrelationships and into bed with
men, because because they theyknow that it's there's sometimes
it's more than just thephysical attributes of a man
that they need time to figureout what's under the surface, a
(24:00):
little bit more, probablybecause of what you just said.
Charles (24:04):
It depends on I mean, part of it depends on how, what
women are looking for and whatmethod they're using.
If you look at the stats ondating apps, it's like no, the
the 10% most attractive men arethe only ones that are getting
matches on most of the datingapps, and everybody all the
other guys are getting few tonone and that's and.
(24:27):
And so what are we usually?
What are they usually going off?
They're going off pictures,which is how symmetrical is the
face and how, what kind of shapeis the body and is is what
they're using.
When you're talking about thesubset of women that are looking
for men, not every woman is ondating apps, obviously, but for
the ones that are and noteveryone is that is, on, dating
(24:47):
apps are prioritizing physicalappearance, but most of the
women who are on dating apps areusing that as their as their
quick swipe left, swipe rightjudgment.
Dan (24:58):
Right.
So I think and I I can see thatlike as an initial pool to say
hey, listen, of this pool ofattractive men, at least maybe
part of them, some of them, asmall percentage of them, might
have other attributes and otherqualities.
So why not pull from the mostattractive men and look for
(25:19):
those other qualities, ratherthan the not so attractive men?
And why am I pulling from there, especially considering, from
what I understand, is theexperience of a woman on a
dating app, where they basicallyliterally have a pool of, like
a swimming pool, full of ofoptions, whereas men typically
have a lot less to choose from.
Why not pick a swimming poolthat's more, at least,
(25:41):
attractive?
Charles (25:42):
and another swimming.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
If.
If you're like, yeah, if yourattitude is, I really want a guy
with a great sense of humor,then pick among all the
good-looking guys and then seewhich of them have a good sense
of humor, the the best sense ofhumor might belong to some guy
that you consider to be reallyunattractive.
And if he's so unattractive youwouldn't want to date him or
hook up with him or hang outwith him anyway.
(26:03):
Then then why put him in yourmaybe pile with a right swipe,
when you might just, yeah, and Iget it.
And I, I think guys who on thatand and want to think they want
to get angry about it, theywant to think that it's unfair
in some way.
It's like, no, everybody's just, everybody's just doing what
they feel like they need to doto find what they need to find.
Dan (26:28):
Second of all.
Second of all, you areliterally putting yourself in
the arena for competition Likeyou were.
It's not like you're likewalking around your your normal
day and your job is you sell icecream or whatever, and you're
in and you're, you realconcentrated pool of people
where the sole thing is tocompete for attention.
(26:48):
Right, so you're not.
Yeah you can't guys should shutup about that.
Charles (27:05):
I I can do agree.
Yeah, Well, if, if, if you findthe dating app situation to be
demoralizing or a downer in someway, then don't use it and
don't put yourself into thatkind of a competition.
Dan (27:19):
And just know what you're getting into right, but then
optimize for it If you knowyou're getting in there right.
Yeah, like work on the thingsthat you feel like you want to
work on.
That will make you morecompetitive in that area.
Otherwise don't complain.
Charles (27:32):
Yeah, exactly, okay, let's talk about Rick.
So we get we finally get someinsight on what's going on with
Rick here.
In the fourth episode, he wantsto meet the guy that he
believes killed his father, whois a some kind of a hero, who
was in Thailand trying to helppoor people, and then this big
hotel owner, real developerbusiness, tycoon whatever this
(27:55):
guy is, killed him and that'swhat his mom revealed to him on
her deathbed yep and and chelseabasically has a demand that out
of him.
Dan (28:05):
He was resistant to saying anything to her and he finally
gives in and is a little bitvulnerable with her.
And it was sweet and a littleunexpected that she at the end
comes and she she hugs him after.
He says that, but it soundslike he's a vindictive, I don't
know.
Piece of work.
Charles (28:23):
Yeah, yeah, but I think she can see how, how much pain.
And I mean he he accepted herhug and he looked like a little
bit like he was comforted by it,which was nice to see.
Yeah, but yeah it, I mean again, it's kind of more
foreshadowing, like the gun.
It's like you can't, you can'ttell the audience, hey, there's
going to be a confrontationbetween this guy and this other
(28:45):
guy who he thinks killed hisfather.
It's like, yeah, this is goingto be, this is going to be a
mess.
Obviously this is going to be.
And like not having a plan ofI'm not sure if I'm going to
kill him out of revenge or not,that doesn't sound like a great
idea, right.
Dan (29:01):
She flat out asks him you know, she's like is this, is
this one of these?
You killed my father preparedto die situations.
Charles (29:08):
Right and he's like I don't know.
Yeah Like, holy cow, yeah Like.
Dan (29:14):
You're just going to be like at the whim of your
emotions when you actually seethis guy, most likely be
overwhelmed, and then perhaps dosomething stupid.
Charles (29:23):
Yeah, another session, meditation session with what's
her name the meditation lady toto work some of this stuff out,
to sort of come up with a whatis it that you want to feel?
What is it you want to do?
So we know, we know his storynow, we know what he's after and
he's got to.
He's got to fly to bangkok toto confront this guy, and so
(29:48):
we'll we'll see more about thatin episode five but if you're
sorry to cut you off, if youremember, though, the meditation
teacher did say before he wentto Bangkok.
Dan (29:58):
She grabbed him and she's like you touched my heart, I'd
love to have another sessionwith you.
And basically kind of like ahey, I'm trying to save you here
, a little bit almost, and he'slike nah, I'm going to Bangkok.
Charles (30:09):
Yeah, it's sad that they weren't able to get
together and I don't know if shewould have helped or changed
his mind or anything, but itwould have been nice to see.
But yeah, it really it'sinteresting to see how he builds
this whole identity of at somepoint he was a powerless kid,
that stuff happened to that hecouldn't control it.
(30:31):
At some point he was apowerless kid, that stuff
happened to that he couldn'tcontrol it.
And now you see him exerting amix of control and detachment
with his girlfriend and I meanyou can see he's really trying
to his relationship with her.
He's he's basically manhandlingit and strangling it so that it
gives him exactly what he needsand he doesn't have to put
anything into it that he doesn'twant to.
(30:52):
Yeah, and she has to push andprod for anything from him and
it's just, it's a, it's a methodfor a guy who feels out of
control to be a little bit incontrol of something.
Yeah.
Dan (31:04):
Yeah, and and I think you're right with his identity
that's why he didn't want tomeet with that meditation
instructor, because I think hewas afraid she was going to
change his mind and he needed he.
He like he came all that way.
He absolutely needs to see thisto completion, so he absolutely
had to go to Bangkok and, yeah,I think he just didn't want to
(31:25):
change his identity, or hewasn't even open to changing at
that point.
Charles (31:29):
Yeah, yeah it's.
It's sad to watch all these,all these guys who just they
feel I mean it's a.
It speaks to a lack ofresilience.
When you see guys working thishard to put on such a mask of
what's going on with them, likethey're all kind of in denial of
(31:49):
.
I can't handle the world as itreally is or me as I really am.
So time to put on the put onthe makeup and get on the stage
so that people can see.
You know what, what I'mpretending to be.
Yeah, yeah.
Dan (32:05):
To go back to the dad.
I just remember him sitting atdinner with Piper and the mom
and she's like, yeah, that was,that was a crazy experience on
the boat, right, it was likethis luxury cruise and she had
to talk to a couple of strangersand she couldn't handle it
because she didn't have herlittle Razzapam.
She says she almost had a grandmal seizure having to deal with
those people, right, and she'slike they could have been.
(32:27):
They could have been criminalsand they could have been.
They could have been tax cheats.
And then piper's like, yeah,y'all probably cheat on your
taxes.
And she's like, right, well,not enough to leave the country.
And then they shoot the, thecamera over to the dad's face.
He's like, oh, that's like okay, and and she's like you should
be so lucky, piper, that yourdad's an actual boy scout.
And the dad is getting more andmore uncomfortable knowing what
(32:50):
a facade he's he's putting on.
And that's when he gets up fromthe table and he that's when he
grabs the phone from pam andthen calling a lawyer who's like
, yeah, yeah, the, the guy kennyis gonna kenny win, is turning
over and he's talking to thefeds and he's gonna say
everything and that's right andthat that led him to getting the
gun.
And I just I love the way theybasically will throw lines that
(33:16):
are innocent.
But then the dad hears it andit's just like, oh, it applies
to him, right.
So when, after he steals thegun, he's walking back and to
the bungalow and Pam stops himand she goes I think you've got
something, are you ready to giveit back?
Right, and everybody's thinking, oh, it's the gun.
And then she's like your phone.
(33:36):
And he's like, oh yeah, she'slike, hopefully you won't be
needing this anymore and he'slike I won't.
And so when I, when I saw thatagain, I'm like, oh, he's
probably thinking he's going tokill himself.
Charles (33:53):
That's why he won't need his phone anymore.
Exactly, yeah, and it's.
It's so tough, I mean, for bothhim and Rick, and probably I
was thinking with with hislittle speech about my
grandfather was a governor ofNorth Carolina.
My father was a very, very,very successful business.
It's like you could very easilysee a scenario where 10, 15, 20
years Saxon's given that samespeech.
My great grandfather wasgovernor of North Carolina.
My grandfather was a verysuccessful, very, very
successful businessman.
(34:13):
My father we don't talk abouthim, but yeah, it's it really
that that generational BS reallydoes sort of roll downhill.
And yeah, and the thing withwith Timothy in particular, it's
like when you build up thiskind of pseudo stoic facade of
(34:34):
I'm the patriarch, I'm theprovider, it's like at some
point, that mask that you'vebeen carrying along with you for
so long it becomes.
It becomes a friend that youdon't want to say goodbye to.
It becomes it becomes a friendthat you don't want to say
(34:54):
goodbye to.
And this situation with hislegal situation, it's like, okay
, it's good.
If you want to make it throughthis with the best possible
result, based on the choices youmade 15 years ago or whatever
it is, you've got to be honestabout not being the person that
you've claimed to be, and that'swhen, that that's what sparks
reactions like oh, I'd ratherdie.
Dan (35:14):
Yeah.
So question for you you thinkalso there's a little some some
perfectionist tendencies inthere.
I picked that up when the mom'slike, oh, you're so lucky that
your dad's an actual boy scout,which to me kind of shows this,
this facade of of, yeah, he'sperfect, he does nothing wrong,
right, when I hear Boy Scout,that's what I'm thinking of and
so maybe maybe that's part ofhis facade as well, as he's
(35:36):
basically perfect.
And even I think even in thatearlier episodes the wife is
like you've got it all, you'vegot money and success and a
great family, and da, da, da, da, da.
And like basically this quoteunquote perfect life
quote-unquote perfect life?
Charles (35:55):
well, yes, and, and as as I've learned from the
brilliant work of bernie brown,perfectionism and shame are just
opposite sides of the same coin.
You don't have one without theother.
So I think, yeah, his shame isnot just about like, yeah, 15
years ago I did this illegalthing to make a couple extra
million, 10 million millionextra bucks, I think it's.
Also I never measured up to theexample of my grandfather or my
(36:18):
dad, and I've been strugglingto measure up to it and I never
did so.
I've never been good enough.
So that prompt that thatmotivated him to take some
shortcuts he shouldn't havetaken and also motivates him to
not really be somebody that hiswife or his kids could actually
know.
Dan (36:33):
Yeah, yeah.
Charles (36:34):
And and I wonder, I wonder how much of that, that
distance and that pseudo selfhe's created is.
I wonder how much of the wife'sVictoria, is that her name?
Dan (36:46):
Yeah.
Charles (36:47):
Yeah, how?
How much of of his just livingwith him being the way that he
is is causing her to look forthings to soothe her unmet needs
, like a crap ton of lorazepamevery day.
Dan (37:00):
And and and can't handle a cruise with some strangers.
She's like I almost had aseizure, having to deal with
that without her lorazepam.
So clearly she's saying shecan't handle anything slightly
uncomfortable either.
Charles (37:13):
Right, and I'm not saying that any everybody's
mental illness is the result ofthe people close to them not
treating them right.
But I think she she has gottenherself into a marriage and a
family situation where the guyseems completely checked out on
everything except keeping hisbusiness and his reputation
going and so that does grind onpeople after a time.
(37:36):
That doesn't.
That doesn't make himresponsible for her, her anxiety
disorder she has one, but italso it's not helping.
Dan (37:42):
Yeah, yeah, she one of the things that she mentions at
dinner is like, oh, these peopleare not like.
The people at the oh piper islike, hey, you're fine, you're
fine at the club with otherpeople.
And she's like, yeah, butthey're, they're good people,
they come from good families.
And then shoot, the cameramoves in the dad and the dad is
like scratching his head, like,oh my God, the club, thinking
about all the people he knows atthe club.
(38:04):
So you're totally right.
Yeah, it's just, he just thinkof all the social, outside
social pressures and thereputation he's got.
Charles (38:20):
Yeah it's, yeah it's, it's.
It's so interesting to watchthese, these rich fancy people
in this rich fancy setting, butjust having to deal with the
same kinds of pressures, just atdifferent levels and in
different ways, as all of usnormies have to deal with too.
Dan (38:30):
Yeah.
Charles (38:30):
Yeah, all right.
So Greg slash Gary not not awhole lot have to deal with too.
Yeah, yeah, all right.
So Greg slash Gary not not awhole lot of interesting stuff
with him.
I mean he, he really is thequintessential supporting
character.
I mean stuff just kind ofunfolds around him and he's kind
of mysterious, kind ofinteresting.
But we we don't, we never gotoo deep on Greg slash Gary and
what's really going on with him.
(38:51):
But it is interesting to seethings, see how other people
react to him and see how thingsunfold around him.
But yeah, he's.
Yeah, belinda is starting tofigure out a little bit more
about what's going on with himand so that's plugging in a
little bit more mystery anddrama into the show.
But yeah, he's kind of a blankslate or a mirror that you just
see other people in the contextof how they deal with him.
Dan (39:14):
Yeah, I remember one of the scenes that really kind of
underscores what you just saidabout his character was when
Saxon first comes on board hehugs Chloe because she's the one
who invited them, right, andthen he introduces himself to
Greg and he's like hey, saxon,and he goes yeah, hi, doesn't,
doesn't give his name at all,and so it really it shows that
(39:38):
he, how aloof he really is beingwith everybody.
Charles (39:42):
Yeah, he does not seem to have much use for Saxon in
particular because he, he andlook, that's part of the issue
with a lot of the guys that wereon that boat.
It's like when you're catchinggirls based on nothing except
how much money you have in thebank or how professionally
successful you are, you alwayskind of have to be on the
(40:04):
lookout for a more successfulshark that's out there to
potentially steal yourgirlfriend.
Yeah, and in Saxon's case hecomes from money, at least he
does right now, and it looksthat it's very clear.
Saxon's case he comes frommoney, at least he does right
now, and it looks that it's veryclear.
It looks that way that he comesfrom money and he's also quite
a bit younger and quite a bitmore attractive.
So what reason would Greg havefor liking him?
Dan (40:24):
Good point, good point.
Charles (40:26):
Right when?
Yeah, I think, I think it's.
It's very possible that he seeshim as a threat.
Dan (40:31):
Yeah, definitely think that in the in this situation
especially I think this was atthe last episode where he caught
Chloe waving at Saxon at dinner.
So she he knows something'sgoing on, either staring, or
waving or something.
Charles (40:42):
Yeah, there was definitely.
Dan (40:43):
Oh, they're staring.
That's what it was.
And then he, then Saxon, givesher a little, a little wave into
the bottle.
Charles (40:54):
That's what it was.
Yeah, greg, greg picked up onsomething there, and so when he
sees him again on on his boat,it's like okay, yeah, so, but
you're always.
Dan (40:58):
But I was like wondering, this guy's dangerous right?
Clearly he did something to hisex-wife, so what's, what's?
I think this what's he got instore now for Saxon or anybody
else that's on that boat.
Yeah.
Charles (41:09):
Who's a threat exactly?
We and, and that's the other.
Does he care about this girlenough to risk something like
that?
Or again, we never really knewexactly what his involvement was
with his ex-wife's death.
But yeah is like is this thekind of guy that could go after
some young kid who's putting themoves on his girlfriend?
(41:30):
Or does he not care?
He's got his money and he seesgirls like her as
interchangeable.
So maybe, maybe it doesn'tmatter.
We, we don't know at this point.
Dan (41:39):
Yeah, and the.
The episode closes out withGreg in a dark room they're
typing on the on his computerand then you see he's looking up
Belinda and she, he seespictures of her and his son, her
son, there.
So and, and that was whileeverybody else chloe and
everybody and the kids were onthe boat going to a full moon
(42:00):
party at that island, becausechloe had begged him to allow
them to take the boat and he hadto, like, do some business,
that's what, that's what thebusiness he was doing.
And right then the next sceneis saxon coming from, coming
from the inside on the boat.
He's got a drink in his hand,he goes, shit's about to get
crazy.
And then they, they kind ofclose out the episode.
And it was a great teaserbecause, yeah, you can see
(42:22):
everything getting buildingbetween the dad.
Now Greg is looking up Belinda.
He might, he might kill Belinda.
The girls and the guys areunsupervised quote unquote on
the boat drinking, going to amoon party.
Yeah, so I think this was yeahas episode four.
It really led to some, someintrigue for the future episodes
yeah, I'm looking forward tothe next one.
Charles (42:43):
So let's stop there for now and we will chat next time
about episode five sounds goodthanks, dan, thanks.
Thanks so much for stickingwith us through the whole
episode, dan, and I certainlyappreciate it.
That'll wrap up our discussionon the white lotus season three,
episode four.
Thanks again for listening.
Join us next time.
We're going to get into episodefive and explore what new
(43:04):
challenges and revelations awaitthe men of this luxurious,
chaotic resort.
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