June 23, 2025 • 40 mins
Emotional vulnerability is rare. Expectations clash. And some men just can't face reality. Welcome to The White Lotus Season 3, Episode 7, "Killer Instincts," where we unpack the deep-seated issues beneath the surface of paradise.
Charles and Dan break down:
- Rick and Frank's Daring Deception: We delve into the "funny like kind of caper" as Rick and Frank pose as a director and producer. We discuss Frank's struggle with sobriety during the charade and Rick's "pretty smart" but "shady behavior" in orchestrating the confrontation.
- Timothy's Toxic Control: We explore the "erratic behavior" of Timothy and his son Saxon's fears. We discuss Timothy's belief that his work is "all I have" and his disturbing "murder suicide fantasies" stemming from a perceived family fragility.
- Gaitok's Dilemma with Mook: We analyze Gaitok's date with Mook and her desire for a partner with "killer instincts" who is "strong". We discuss the challenges of being a security guard who "abhors violence" and the implications for his future.
- Greg's Moral Quandary: We examine the suspicions around Greg's wife's death and his attempt to "brib[e] Belinda" to keep her silent. We weigh the "safest thing for Belinda to do" when faced with this ethical crossroads.
Also on the table:
- Why the "male loneliness epidemic" is fundamentally a "resilience epidemic".
- The problematic "maladaptive sexual behavior" rooted in past abuse.
- How "rich, very soft men" struggle to "grapple with life on life's terms".
- The role of "grifters" in the "masculinity business" and the danger of hitching your wagon to the "wrong horse".
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Charles (00:00):
male loneliness epidemic, which we talked about
before, on and off the mics, Ithink so much of it is not.
It's not a loneliness epidemic,in my opinion, it's a
resilience epidemic.
We have a lack of resilienceepidemic among men in this
country 100 and it's not.
And that doesn't mean you'renot physically strong enough to
deal with what life throws it's.
(00:21):
You're not emotionally strongenough or mentally tough, yes to
deal with what life throws atyou.
Welcome back to the mindfullymasculine podcast.
This is charles all right.
This week, dan and I continueour deep dive into the themes of
masculinity in the white lotusseason three.
This is episode seven, whichwas titled killer instincts.
We'll be getting into some ofthe antics of r and Frank, the
(00:43):
family dynamics, the rat lifts,guy Talk's interesting date with
Mook, and we'll talk aboutthemes like resilience,
financial independence and someof the challenges men face in
today's world.
We hope you enjoy thisthought-provoking discussion and
check out our website,mindfullymasculinecom, for full
video episodes, audio episodesand anything else we feel like
(01:04):
sharing.
Thanks, hey Charles.
How are else we feel likesharing?
Thanks.
Dan (01:07):
Hey Charles, how are you?
Charles (01:09):
I'm well, dan, thank you.
How are you?
I'm doing well, doing well.
We're coming up on episodeseven of Head Lotus, which this
is one of my favorite episodesof the season.
I really enjoyed it.
This and the finale, I wouldsay, were probably my two
favorite episodes.
So it's nice really ramping upthis episode's titled killer
instincts.
Based on some of the discussionthat guy talked and I don't
(01:32):
know what, what's mook's realname?
I thought that was her real.
I don't think that's hernickname.
Let's check real quick.
What is mook's name on whitelotus?
Okay, well, portrayed by lalisamanabal, widely recognized as
lisa from the k-pop groupblackpink.
(01:52):
Yeah, I did not know her fromthat I did from yeah, my
girlfriend's daughter probably.
Dan (01:58):
Wow, yeah, she's like, oh, she recognized her right away
too, like she just walked by thetelevision as she was on set on
the screen and she's like, oh,oh, that's so-and-so and I was
like what?
Yeah?
Charles (02:12):
I had no idea.
I had no idea either.
So Mook translates to Pearl.
Oh, cute.
But I just asked is that thecharacter's real name or
nickname?
Okay, no, her name isT-h-i-d-a-p-o-n, so teed upon
okay oh, teed upon sorenson, letme, let me see how sorenson no?
(02:35):
No, not sorenson.
Let me see, that's a mix.
How to pronounce that name?
Okay, the th is usuallypronounced t, we know that.
So let's see tita, tita pon allright, sorensen would be her
(02:57):
full name, so that's one word.
No two words.
Dan (03:01):
But her last name, sorensen , is s-o-r-n-s-i-n, so there's
no, there's no e in there gotcha, it's like swedish.
Charles (03:09):
It's not swedish, sorry , yeah, sorenson sorenson okay
yes, so all right, you call hermook for obvious reasons.
She seems to have no problemwith the nickname.
I mean, over here, if youreferred to a girl as mook, I
don't know if they would likethat, but I assume they're all
and fine, yeah, so, yeah, herand guy talk had a conversation
about well, we'll get to thatabout many things, and I thought
(03:32):
it was an interestingconversation.
Multiple conversations they hadwere had some interesting
things.
We'll start with rick and frank,which was a really I mean it
was a funny like kind of caperthat they were engaging in, but
also with that sort of darkundercurrent of okay, what's
this guy gonna do?
Is he gonna freak out?
Is he gonna shoot somebody?
What's what's gonna happen?
So, so rick and frank show upproposing as director and
(03:55):
producer at the house of thelady and guy that owned the
white lotus resort and, yeah,frank is going off the rails.
Pretty early on in the processhe orders a tea and then changes
his order to whiskey.
Yep, he's been sober for what?
three years or something likethat and so, yeah, I think he he
just was not up to the stressof going through this charade it
(04:19):
was just so funny, entertaining, watching frank try to yeah
pretend to be this director who?
Watched and pretended no thingsthat he obviously didn't know.
And what is his way through?
Dan (04:29):
right.
She's like oh, how did you know?
I, the whole, she's totallygiving him the inquisition.
It's just great how it was allthe time I'm more of a visual
kind of person, that's adirector right, yeah, and then,
what movies have you directed?
Charles (04:42):
what movies have I directed action.
What movies have I directed?
Action movies the Executioner,it was right.
It was like two real names,like the Executioner and the.
Dan (04:55):
Notary my favorite was the Notary.
It was a trilogy, yeah.
Charles (05:03):
So I mean yeah.
Dan (05:04):
The.
Charles (05:05):
Enforcer, the Enforcer, enforcer the executioner and
the notary.
It was great.
Yeah and yeah.
That yeah, sam rock, and youalways wonder how much of that
is written and how much is hecoming up with and and and.
Dan (05:17):
He's like.
She's like oh, what's it about?
Oh, it's about a prostitute whoturns into a madam, who I
thought this was supposed to beabout.
My life Like.
You're here to figure that out.
Very powerful, she knows allthe secrets of all the most
powerful men in Thailand.
She's like all right.
Charles (05:32):
Yeah, yeah, it was so funny to see they were just.
Dan (05:38):
That was well done.
Charles (05:39):
They weren't well prepared for this thing, clearly
Seeing them sort of stumbletheir way through it.
Dan (05:50):
They pulled it off.
Charles (05:50):
Rick got what he wanted .
He got the the one-on-oneconfrontation with this guy,
yeah, and thankfully did notdecide to shoot him or kill him
or anything.
He just right, just kind ofwent at him.
Yeah, guy got scared and triedto protect himself.
Rick felt bad for him, knockedhim over his chair.
Dan (06:04):
Then they left yep, but it was smart when he's just like he
told the bot on their way outrunning out.
Yeah, old body goes, old manfell.
You better go take care of himso that they can make the escape
.
I mean, rick's got rick'spretty smart when it comes to
yeah, oh, I think.
Charles (06:17):
What do you want?
It's clear that he's engaged insome pretty shady behavior
before he knows how to do it.
Yeah, he's.
He's savvy, yeah, so, and then,at the end of it, rick feels
like he accomplished what he setout to accomplish, and it's
been resolved, and we yeah, hethrows the gun in the garbage.
Can right, right, we're likehe's we're right to be skeptical
(06:38):
that in the penultimate episodeit's really resolved.
It's like, okay, no, how's thisgonna blow back on him?
Dan (06:43):
yeah, is the is the question that I was left with
well, I mean, looking at it justfrom this episode, he's he
throws the gun in the garbage.
He's like let's go party rightand and and doesn't have to get
his arm twisted when frank isready to go after he had that
drink.
It's like all right.
Charles (06:58):
He is how it often works uh-huh people struggling
with addiction, like it alltakes one to get you back in the
patterns.
Yeah, yeah, there was someinteresting discussion by his
girlfriend.
What's her name?
Again, chelsea, chelsea.
Yeah, her and Saxon had someconversations about Rick, where
it was like, about theirconnection and how, the first
(07:21):
day I met him, he told me hislife story.
I thought, okay, well, that'sinteresting.
Is that because Rick is just anhonest and vulnerable guy?
Or it is possible to use yourstory and inappropriate levels
of self-disclosure to sort ofreel people in?
And I was wondering is thatwhat he did?
(07:42):
Or is he just a super honestand open guy?
It doesn't really seem that way.
Or did he use his sob story andhis emotional disclosures to
her as a way to sort of suckerinto his world?
Dan (07:57):
Yeah, I would say B because he's not looking to get healed
right.
She said they've got a yin andyang relationship and she's like
I, just I'm hoping he's pain orsomething right and she's like
eventually one of us is gonnawin.
So yeah, that is.
And he didn't look like hewanted any help.
I mean, up until this pointdoesn't look like he wanted her
help at all.
So I think he was using it toget hit what he needed at her?
Charles (08:20):
I think so too.
I feel like, yeah, there is toobad, because it'd be nice if
they were just two hurt, damagedpeople who found each other and
were able to meet each other'sneeds.
But now, with her talking abouthim that way, it feels a little
bit more like he's the predatorout to get what he needs from
the world, oh for sure, andshe's just getting swept up in
(08:41):
that oh yeah, which is whichmakes it even sadder when you
you see how loving and how muchshe cares about him where I
don't know man, that is kind ofa bummer, yeah.
Dan (08:51):
I mean, Frank even asks him before they go off and party.
He's like, hey, did you get youwhat you needed out of that?
Or something along those linesright, yeah.
So Rick said yeah, yeah, so.
Charles (09:08):
Yeah, rick's.
Rick said yeah, no.
So yeah, but again, and I sayit was a very poorly planned
like philosophically andpragmatically, the whole thing
was badly planned.
Like, if you say it real fastand you've not done any work on
yourself, it might seem yeah,that sounds like a great idea,
that sounds like exactly how tosolve your problem.
But you dig just a little bitunder the surface about what his
issues are and it's like, okay,maybe you solve this problem,
(09:29):
but you're just going to be onto the next problem.
So, yeah, I, I don't see you'regetting at the wrong, almost
certainly not.
Yeah, so, okay, more upsettingthings about saxon and his dad
and the rest of the family.
I mean, saxon went to his dadand said, hey, I'm noticing all
(09:50):
of your sort of erratic behaviorhere and what's going on.
And I think I think at thebeginning the dad may have
admitted that it was just workstuff or something like that,
but that, yep, that did not helpallay Saxon's fears, because
that's when he disposed like,okay, my work is all I have and
(10:14):
my work is tied to your work ina way that will never be
separated or divided.
People will only ever see me asyour son.
So if there's a problem withwork, that means there's a
problem with my life.
Dan (10:25):
Yeah, he's like I have no hobbies, I've got no interests.
This is it, this is my basket.
Yeah, I'm tied to you.
And he's like I don't mindbeing tied to you, but if I,
since I am, you gotta let meknow.
Right, I need to.
Tim's lies to his face and he'sjust like no, everything's good
, go have a good time.
We're here to have a good time,don't worry about it.
(10:47):
Basically, and it just afterhis son basically begs him.
We're shaking a lot.
Charles (10:53):
It's okay, yeah, I mean after, yeah, when it's.
It's just such a such a toxiccycle between the two of them,
because it's like when the songoes to him with that, his
impulse is not okay.
I need to level with this kidand be honest with him so he
knows exactly what's going onand can prepare for it.
(11:13):
It's no, I'm going to doubledown on no, everything's fine.
When it's clearly not fine,yeah, and then it turns into let
me start thinking aboutmurder-suicide.
Dan (11:23):
Yeah, because he just looks at his family as being so
fragile that they can't handleanything.
So now he's got to put him outof his misery.
Basically right, because he'snot gonna be able to handle it
yeah, and look, I mean, is hisfamily that fragile?
Charles (11:36):
probably not most.
Most humans are more resilientthan we give them credit for,
but if they are that fragile,it's because he made them that
way, because he needed them thatway yeah yeah, and so, yeah, I
have very, very little love fortimothy in this, especially when
he starts thinking I knowwhat's best for them, and what's
(11:56):
best for them is if they'rejust dead.
That yeah I.
I have a very visceral, angryreaction to that.
When I see it, I'm like thisson of a bitch.
I mean, it infuriates me thathe would take on probably
because of my own level, my ownrelationship to autonomy and
independence the idea thatanybody would take on making
(12:18):
that decision for another person, like, oh, you can't handle
this, so you'd be better offdead.
And so his, his, his murder,suicide fantasies are, for lack
of a better word, verytriggering to me and how dare
you so?
Dan (12:33):
I I could definitely I agree with you there on that
point with saxon.
But his wife basically said he,he said she's like I don't know
if I could live like I don't, Idon't know if I'd want to live
without that money and stufflike that.
That's true.
That probably poisoned his minda little bit.
Charles (12:50):
I'm sure it did, but it's still not saying hey, if
anything ever goes sideways,just kill me.
Even people that would saystuff like that for dramatic
effect in most cases would notactually not mean it, and so,
yeah, I mean it's.
Dan (13:06):
But now he's in this altered state of mind because
he's popping those pills, he'sdrinking, he's under that crazy
amount of stress.
Charles (13:11):
He knows he wouldn't want to live, so all of that is
a filter that he's using now tointerpret this information yeah,
and whether, whether the peoplein that family are, clinically
speaking, narcissists or not,right, they certainly display
many narcissistic tendencies andso, yeah, that that can be a
driver for I mean people, peoplelike that in that position
(13:34):
struggling with those issues canoften feel like, okay, well,
I'd be, I'd be better off deadthan having anybody see me for
what I really am, and the vastmajority do not actually hurt
themselves when faced with thosekinds of setbacks, but some of
them do.
And yeah, it's a messed upsituation and honestly, I do
(13:58):
blame Timothy, for I mean, look,you can't have it both ways.
If you want to be a atraditional gender role, family
role kind of guy where the man'sthe provider, blah, blah, blah,
I was like okay, but then whenthings go south and your family
starts to fall apart because youweren't who you actually said
(14:21):
you were, then that burden's onyou too and it's your job to
clean up that mess, not notnecessarily theirs.
I mean, ultimately, everybody'sresponsible for their own
actions and their own mentalhealth.
But it's like, look, thisratliff built this whole life
for his family where I'm the bigshit, I'm the provider, I'm the
millionaire or potentiallybillionaire, and so love me
(14:45):
because I'm those things andthen, okay, now I may not be
those things anymore.
So why are they?
Why would they continue to loveme?
It's like, yeah, good question,why would they?
I mean, you haven't investedanything in your connections, in
your relationships.
Yeah, all you've been right off, yeah, all you've been is a
conduit for wealth and status,and so, yeah, you're no longer
the conduit for wealth andstatus.
(15:06):
It's a fair question to saywhat use will they have for you,
right?
Maybe none, yeah, and now yougot to live with that too.
Dan (15:13):
Yeah yeah, it's interesting that mike white does that.
In a lot of the the lotusepisode, like the white lotus
seasons, there's always somebodyin there where money is
basically being used as asubstitute for or for other
qualities or is sacrifice.
Charles (15:31):
The other qualities are sacrificed for having a lot of
a lot of money right yeah, and Ithink that I can't say what the
percentages or proportions ofthat are.
But but for a lot of the verywealthy people that show up at
four seasons or four seasonsadjacent resorts for multiple
weeks, for not even multipleweeks, so just a week-long
(15:52):
vacation in a place like that isvery expensive, and so the
people who have that money haveprobably had to sacrifice
something to get that level ofaffluence that they can afford
it.
And what is it they had tosacrifice?
For some it was theirconnection.
It was health.
It was.
For some of them maybe not, butyou know, I think, I think it's
.
It's legitimate to say okay, welook at a group of people
(16:14):
showing up at this place who canafford to be at this place yeah
so they've made some trade-offsto be there yeah, another one
is greg right.
Dan (16:23):
He made some trade-offs with his values and his morals
by killing off his, his ex-wife,who thinks, I don't know for
sure no.
But but now he's bribingbelinda in this episode right to
kind of keep her mouth shut.
She's now wrestling with herown ethics and morals for
accepting that money or orconsidering accepting that money
, right yeah.
Charles (16:43):
So I guess that is a legitimate question of what did
he do or not do?
And is he just like okay, I wasjust a government employee.
My rich wife was on a boat withsome guys.
I wasn't there.
She ends up killing I believekilling many of them yeah and
(17:04):
they then taking a tumble offand bonking her head and
drowning.
Yeah, and so do I want to dealwith the stigma of that, or do I
want to change my name and takeher money and go live somewhere
else in peace?
I assume he was involved in it.
Yeah, I think it's certainly an80 or 90 chance that he was
involved in it.
(17:24):
But what he's saying is notinstantly verifiable as being
false either.
Like it's like.
Oh, he's definitely lying, andthat's why.
That's why the story withBelinda is interesting, because
she can't know for sure that hedefinitely killed her.
What he's telling her could bethe truth, and so that gives her
an out to say, okay, I'll, I'lltake his money and leave him
(17:48):
alone, because there is a chancethat he's telling me exactly
what truly happened and if it'snot, she's minimizing her risk
of getting rubbed out.
Correct the way, blint, the wayhis wife did yeah, which is
which which raises aninteresting point what's the
safest thing for belinda to do,right, is it?
Is it refuse the money?
Is it take the money?
Is it push for more money?
(18:09):
I would say it's either refusethe money or take the money.
I think refusing the moneymight be the safest thing for
her.
I don't know, you don't thinkso.
Dan (18:18):
I don't think so he knows that, she knows who he really is
.
I don't think that's the safestroute.
I don't think that's the safestroute.
I don't see and neither did,neither did his son in that
episode either.
Charles (18:29):
See, I would worry if I , if you, if you take the money,
then he can think down the roadokay, she took the money, she
could come after me for moremoney at some point down the
road where, if she was able tosell him on the idea she didn't
ask for the money, that's true,it's not like she was.
Dan (18:46):
She was able to sell him on the idea she didn't ask for the
money.
That's true.
It's not like she was.
She was extorting him.
It was true give me money, orI'm gonna say something right.
He was like here's some moneyfor your business and letting me
live in peace in exchange.
So this was coming from him.
So in that, in that respect, I.
Charles (19:03):
I think I mean if I was in his position, which I never
would be if somebody came to mewith the listen.
I appreciate the offer.
I'm not taking the money, butI'm also never opening my mouth
to anybody, so I am not someoneyou have to pay off or worry
about.
Dan (19:18):
She did say that too.
She's like I need to sleep onit.
I'm not looking to make yourlife more difficult or anything
else like that, but I need tosleep on it.
So we'll see.
Charles (19:28):
I guess we'll see.
I guess they're.
They're both probably prettyeven that taking the money, not
taking the money, it's based onwhat you say when you take the
money or take the money.
I think that's probably the.
That's part of it too,absolutely yeah.
So I don't know, I mean know.
I mean I think the most moralthing to do if you think that he
killed his wife is to not takethe money.
Dan (19:48):
call all the police, but she said in that year she's like
what police do we call the thaipolice, italian police,
american police?
Charles (19:55):
just call all the police yeah, I, you know maybe
that there's nothing she can dolegally to get him in trouble.
Right, she wanted to.
Dan (20:03):
But like what.
So I mean, yeah, I mean I guessthe police would just grab him
because they couldn't questionhim or something, I think,
because he left right.
Charles (20:13):
It would depend on what evidence they had and what the
extradition treaty was and allthat I don't know.
I imagine most of these peopleare in Thailand because there is
no extradition treaty for wherethey're at.
Sorry, my phone is going off,even though I do not deserve.
I'm not sure it's just my watchthat is not obeying the do not
(20:35):
deserve.
Let me see what I have to doabout that.
Bear with me here.
Silent mode is on now.
Yeah, so that is a certainly aninteresting situation.
Look, while we're talking,while we've addressed the rat
lifts and greg, this sexualsituation that the girlfriend is
(20:57):
asking for with saxon, right,yes, yes.
So greg had an issue, I guess,when he was a kid.
His parents were leaving thedoor open while they were having
sex with each other so that hecould see and hear what was
going on.
Let's be clear that's abuse.
Yeah, he was abused and as aresult of that abuse, he has
developed some maladaptivesexual behavior.
(21:22):
And the thing that, anotherthing that made me roll my eyes
at Saxon was this idea of himacting like he's too good to
participate in this, like Iwouldn't say yes to it either,
but he's willing to have sexwith this guy's wife behind his
back and act like that's fine,but he's not going to have sex
(21:45):
in front of the guy's back withhis wife because that's wrong.
I mean, and I definitely gotthe hold on.
I never said that's wrong, butit was like that's what do you
think I?
I'm not that kind of yeah.
He was definitely moralizingthere where he's actually too
good to participate in thatbehavior, right where it's like
it's okay to say I'm not intothat, I don't want to do it.
But the idea of it's fine to bethe guy that's banging his wife
(22:08):
behind his back, but I'm too,I'm too, yeah, right, engage in
this weird threesome stuff yeah,like well, I think I think he's
a prick.
Dan (22:17):
Yeah, I think he also was probably freaked out from what
happened with his youngerbrother.
I'm sure you mean that drovehim to a little bit more
conservative side, because it'sstill because he's.
Charles (22:27):
He's a little messed up in the head now yeah, I, I
could get that, but it stilldoesn't give you an excuse to
act like you're too good for forsomething that somebody else is
into.
I mean the I should never.
The response should be I'm notinto that.
I'm not gonna do that and bestof luck to you.
But you know the the idea ofcondescending to what somebody's
into, right, because you're toogood for that behavior,
(22:51):
especially coming from him, isvery suspect and very cringy.
Yeah, so I think.
But you're right, he's dealingwith a lot of stuff right now
between the dads Because I'msure he doesn't believe his
dad's assurances.
Why would he Correct believehis dad's assurances?
Dan (23:05):
why would he correct?
And I mean, I think he wasalready skeptical when he found
out that greg knew that theyslept together.
I remember he was alreadyreluctant to go to the party,
but then he's up for it and hebrings his whole family yeah,
that's so I think, I think he'sshowing his.
he's got all these conflictsabout who he is and and, and you
(23:28):
know what he's about as well,because then he's, maybe he has
a conversation with Chelseaabout oh, I could be spiritual
and I could, I might surpriseyou, and they even go, and they,
they.
She tries to get him tomeditate and and she's a little
touchy, yeah, she has that.
Charles (23:44):
Yeah, and and she's a little touchy, yeah, she has to
end it.
Yeah, yeah, when he, when hewas remarking on all the old
guys there with the, the youngwomen, young wives or whatever,
don't they don't?
They know that they're onlyinterested for their money.
And she's like, yeah, that'syou in 30 years.
He's like, why are you so meanto me?
That's not, yeah, look, I meanrich or poor.
Patrick schwarzenegger looks,or greg looks.
(24:06):
It's like, yeah, if you're not,if you're not authentically
connecting with people, you willeither end up alone or with
people who are with you forreasons other than who you
actually are, and so chelsea wasabsolutely right.
If he stays the course, he isgoing to be one of those guys,
because you're yeah, you're notgoing to, you're not going to
attract people based on the fakeversion of you that you put out
(24:28):
there and it's so ironicbecause the mom is having a
conversation with one of theyoung girls there and she's like
oh, why are you with this old?
Dan (24:36):
this guy was because of the money.
He's like.
She's like if, if you're indanger, let me know I'll.
I'll get you out of this andand she's just right.
And she's just like no, I love,I love him.
And she's like and she's likeyou can't ask me that the mom
was just like.
I can get you out of this.
Charles (24:52):
So yeah, that whole family is so judgmental, so
Lachlan is hanging out with hissister at the at the and he's
he's getting stuff out of it,he's having a good experience.
I mean, some of that could be inresponse to what he went
through with his brotherrecently too, and then he ends
(25:13):
up saying that he wants to do agap year and stay there with her
and she reacts unfavorably toit.
She doesn't really get into thereasons why, but she's kind of
not into him and her doing ittogether.
That's clear, and I could tellthat that the actor did a good
job of communicating.
That hurt his feelings andconfused him a little bit.
Like what's the?
Yeah what's that about?
Dan (25:31):
And it's true, I at that age I probably would have been
confused too, Like she was soexcited to have him there to
spend the night with, with her.
And then now he's just like, oh, I'm really into this, so she,
and she's just like I need tothink about it kind of thing.
Charles (25:47):
Yeah, yeah, that was not a very kind reaction.
Dan (25:50):
I felt bad for Kim.
Charles (25:51):
I did too, absolutely, but they definitely close the
loop on that in the next episodeand go into more detail.
Dan (25:58):
He's like I don't want to let my dark pastures out of
Dexter, but my dark, my darkshit come out, kind of thing.
So he's, he's gonna need to bethere.
It wasn't anything.
I feel superficial.
Charles (26:12):
And then she's, she's just like whoa, which I think in
his case, I think that darkshit was basically just a
ineffectively managed my desireto connect to my brother.
Yeah, now I feel guilty over it, I don't 100 yeah super
complicated.
I think it was just.
That was a weird thing thathappened and now I feel bad
about it.
Yeah, and so he's like let mego away for a year and work it
(26:35):
out, which there are worse wayshe could for sure try to get up
to that.
All right, let's get to a guytalking yes, so they're out on
what looks like a date.
Dan (26:46):
She's got a cute little dress on.
I liked it.
Charles (26:48):
Yeah, I think he certainly thought it was a date
and treated it like a date.
I don't know what her long-termintentions were, but she kind
of communicated some of them,which was he told her about the
conversation he had with hisboss, where he doesn't have the
killer instinct and he is tryingto be a moral Buddhist who
doesn't pursue violence, and shedoesn't really seem all that
(27:11):
into it.
Dan (27:11):
Yeah, she's like well, it was in defense.
She's like in defense it's okayand you live in this world and
you need to be strong.
So she's putting a littlepressure on him yeah, and look
she is.
Charles (27:24):
She's allowed to be attracted to what she's
attracted to.
She's allowed to search forwhat she's searching for in a
potential mate or partner.
And it's not a guy talks job orour job or really any guy's job
or really any person's job tosay you're immoral because
you're not attracted to what I'moffering where I tend to see
more of that on men's, on themen's side than the women's side
(27:46):
, at least in our Westernsociety of girls are what
they're into.
And if you're into a girl who'snot into you or due to lack of
a particular characteristic thatshe's attracted to, then okay,
well then we'll insult andderide her for not being into
what I am.
(28:06):
That happens online veryfrequently.
In real life I'm not sure howoften it happens, but certainly
I just girls.
There will be girls who areinto muscular men.
There will be girls who areinto tall men.
There will be girls who areinto black men, white men,
whatever bald men, all men orwell-haired men, I mean they're,
(28:27):
yeah people.
Judging people for what they'reinto does not seem like the
right thing to do or make a lotof sense it's a waste of time,
yeah, so.
Dan (28:37):
So what are you going to talk them into being into
something that they're not?
Charles (28:40):
come on, guy talk does not seem to have the
predilection for, or even thestomach for, physical violence.
Which good?
I mean you, ideally not, notevery, not every guy has to
behave as if it's their job tofend off the raiding village
raiding party from the villagenext door.
(29:01):
I mean we know, we don't livein that world anymore those guys
should not be security guardscorrect.
I agree with that.
Yeah right, yeah you, if you'rewilling, if you want to be a
security guard, yeah then orattract women who like security
guards correct, then you need tobe prepared for the reality of
your situation.
And she mentioned something likeI thought you were ambitious, I
(29:23):
thought you wanted a better job.
Like you can be ambitious andyou can want a better job
without necessarily being in thesecurity industry, there are
other things you could be doingand should be doing.
I mean, yeah, if your job Iwould say for a security guard
(29:44):
more than other jobs you have tobe prepared for the fact that
you might need to put your handson somebody in a violent way.
Dan (29:51):
I mean, I think in this case, one possibility is that
Mook doesn't necessarily want asecurity job, a guy who's in
security but maybe who'sambitious, Right.
So you could have a differentjob but just be the best
whatever you're doing.
It could be in that, in thatfield right it could be.
Charles (30:09):
The issue that she has with him is hey, you're in,
you're in a job where you'retelling me that you don't have
or desire the skills for the jobthat you're in, so what kind of
a future could you possiblyhave in that job and what kind
of a future could you have assomebody that you know I want to
(30:30):
build a financially solidhousehold with, when you're
saying I'm in this job and Idon't have, I don't want to have
, the skills that the jobrequires.
So, yeah, something along thelines of hey, my plan is to get
into this other job or field orwhatever may or may not offset
this for her, because, look,there are plenty of fields where
(30:52):
you don't have to have anyinterest in getting violent with
people and you can excel andand not have that.
That said, there's still.
Look, I think there's going tobe a concern on behalf of most
women who want to feel like,okay, if I'm with a guy, then I
want to be fairly confident thatif something unexpected and
(31:14):
violent happens, he's going tobe able to get me out of that
situation safely.
Yeah, that doesn't meannecessarily being the strongest
guy in the room who could beateverybody else up or the guy
who's willing to pull out a gunand shoot everybody.
But, like I need to know thatyou're prepared to navigate
those unpleasant circumstances.
We might find ourselves in rightand the fact that he's a
security guard who hatesviolence is a is a communicator
(31:39):
of.
Hey, I might not be the guythat knows how to.
When I'm in, when I'm in asituation, I may not know what
it takes to handle thatsituation, because a guy who
abhors violence doesn't knowwhat it takes to be a security
guard.
Dan (31:51):
Yeah, but also, what kind of how are you operating in this
world if you are kind ofsticking yourself into a
situation where you are settingyourself up for failure and
you're not doing anything tochange that, because literally
you are not, I mean, unless youchange jobs?
But you, if you're not changingjobs, then you're kind of
(32:14):
setting yourself up for failure,right, and it's just like if
you don't have the, if you don'thave the wherewithal to realize
that that's what you're doing,or you don't have the motivation
to change it, that's also not agood situation that you want to
align yourself with.
If you're a partner of thatperson, right?
Charles (32:28):
yeah, and I mean I don't know what it's like in
thailand, but here I know youhave to get some training and
education to be a security guard, but it's not years and years
of your life, you know.
So I mean the same process thatyou, you followed to become
whatever level of certifiedsecurity guard you have to in
thailand.
Yep, the same money and timeand whatever could probably be
(32:48):
spent developing some otherskill that you could have a
better shot at moving up aladder and and getting to where
you want to be financially yeah,I had friends who basically
they wanted to be cops and theystarted out as security guards.
Dan (33:00):
But that's because that was a logical progression.
They didn't, they weren't like,wanted to be doctors and
started out security guards likeno, no, no or vice versa.
It's not.
Charles (33:10):
Yeah.
So one of the things I'venoticed I've heard and seen a
lot of memes over the lastcouple of weeks about the male
loneliness epidemic which wetalked about before on and off
the mics.
I think so much of it is not,as it's not a loneliness
epidemic In my opinion, it's aresilience epidemic.
We have a lack of resilienceepidemic among men in this
(33:32):
country 100%.
And it's not.
And that doesn't mean you're notphysically strong enough to
deal with what life throws atyou, you're not emotionally
strong enough or mentally toughyes to deal with what life
throws at you.
And I think, guys, one of themost valued skills I see in the
people that I considersuccessful is they can honestly
(33:53):
and openly put all of theireffort and desire into
accomplishing something and then, when it doesn't work out, they
can say, man, that sucks.
I really put everything I hadinto that and I didn't get the
result I wanted to.
I'm going to take a minute,lick my wounds and then get back
to the next goal and whetherthat is in pursuing a job,
pursuing a woman, whatever it is, this ability and I think what
(34:17):
happens is when guys don't havethat example from their fathers
or a mentor that says here's howyou do that, then as soon as
they hit the first roadblock ofI tried to get this thing, this
person, this job, whatever itdidn't work out.
Now I'm just going to go backinto my cocoon and be lonely,
and I think a lot of the guysthat I see struggling with that
(34:42):
loneliness it's because they'renot willing to put themselves
out there a second time forwhatever it was that they were
going after.
Yeah, because the first timehurt so bad.
Dan (34:52):
And or they don't have enough examples of somebody
going through that and actuallyeventually succeeding and seeing
the payoffs, but also, like yousaid, is seeing how you recover
from that failure.
Charles (35:06):
It's one thing to read about or whatever, but if you
have somebody close to you inyour life that you can actually
look at and see going through it, that's so much of a better
teacher yeah, and, and I and theone, the many of these
characters in this show reek ofa lack of resilience to me and I
tell you the being soft in thatway, which soft is a lot of
(35:32):
baggage with that term and it'sa very big term.
But from shows like this andwitnessing the news, popular
media, social media, being asoft man is not limited to any
kind of group as far as race,ethnicity, religion, political
leanings and even well, I mean,this show has some very rich,
(35:54):
very soft men who just cannot,cannot grapple with life on
life's terms because they're,they just don't have what it
takes and I would say eventhere's, there's a chance that
wealth and affluence may evenmore poorly prepare you, for me,
for your life of resiliencethan being poor does.
Dan (36:13):
Oh, absolutely, because you need to figure anything out,
and there's a lot lessconsequences when you can't
figure something out, and Ithink I don't think that you
need to be rich and affluent forthat to be a factor.
These days, with technology andalmost all the progress that
we've made as human beings andtools and everything else that
we have to make our lives easier, we don't need to figure out as
(36:35):
much stuff on a full human widescale.
So you're right, I think it'snot preparedness when we fail
and when we have to figurethings out.
That's when we become resilient.
So that's why, a lot of times,we need to actually practice
that intentionally.
In order to become resilient isto figure things out.
We need to, like, put our ownchallenges and obstacles in our
(36:57):
own way in order to to figureout how to, how to get stuff
done.
Charles (37:02):
Right, yeah, yeah.
Dan (37:03):
And if we don't, then you're right.
Where are we getting thattraining from?
It's not just from daily life.
No, certainly I think we've gotto be intentional with it these
days and it's a mixed blessingit is possible to.
Charles (37:14):
There.
There are people who didn't getit and realized, oh, I, I'm
lacking this, I need to go findthis and you can go out there
and you can find the stories ofauthors, coaches, people who got
done the kinds of things thatyou want to get done and came
from the kinds of places youcame from.
But I mean, the optimal way toget that is going to be, as a
(37:34):
man, from your dad and but youknow, so that's another way you
could say the male lonelinessepidemic is related to the male
fatherhood epidemic, becausethere's a lot of dads out there
who didn't get it from their dad, so how are they going to pass
it along to their sons if it'snot?
Yeah, fatherhood epidemic,because there's a lot of dads
out there who didn't get it fromtheir dad, so how are they
going to pass it along to theirson if it's not?
yeah and you know when, when yourealize, okay, my, I don't have
(37:58):
the skills that I need, so Ineed to go find them.
That's a mixed blessing, too,because there's a lot of people
out there who will sellthemselves, as I have the
answers that you're looking for,and they really don't have the
answers that will lead to anykind of health or happiness, but
they do have the answers thatwill lead to them getting rich
and and I, yeah, and I share mypersonal belief is that the, the
(38:21):
male, the male health andwellness or the masculinity
business is ripe with grifterswho will will tell you a story
that both makes them rich andlook super tough and super
successful, but it doesn'treally lead to the kinds of
fulfillment or relationships orhealth or happiness that you,
(38:44):
you actually want deep down.
So it's just you'll bounce fromgrievance to grievance your
whole life.
Who am I going to be angry atnow for not having the things
that I want?
And it doesn't really doanything.
Whereas if you can develop thatresilience, you can very easily
say oh, okay, this guy's gotsome interesting things to say.
I'm going to dig a little bitdeeper.
And then you dig a littledeeper and you're like this,
(39:07):
this guy's still bullshit.
I don't want to dedicate yearsof my life listen to what he has
to say.
And when you're mentallyresilient and emotionally
resilient, you can say, okay,well, that was interesting.
I wasted some time on this guy,but now I can say I was wrong
and move on to somebody better.
Yeah, where?
Again, if you lack thatresilience, it's like no, I, I
bought this guy's torch, now I'mstuck for life.
(39:28):
I gotta, I gotta sound like anact like this guy for the rest
of my life.
Because admitting I was wrong,that I hitched my wagon to the
wrong horse.
I couldn't handle that, so nowI'm stuck.
Yeah, and so, yeah, there's noeasy answers to this.
I feel like there are some goodsmart guys out there talking
about about these struggles goodsmart guys out there talking
(39:50):
about about these struggles, butnot enough of them.
So hopefully we'll get threelisteners to this episode
instead of the usual two andwe'll hey, we'll have huge
growth, huge spike progress, notperfection, exactly hockey,
hockey stick growth.
All right, thanks, dan.
I can't wait to talk about thefinale finale sweet sounds good
all right.
Thanks so much for sticking withus for the entire episode.
We certainly appreciate it.
Again, check out our websitemindfullymasculinecom for full
(40:12):
video and audio episodes andjoin us next week when we're
going to review the finale, thelast episode of this season of
White Lotus and what happens toall these characters.
Thanks, and we'll talk to younext time.
male loneliness epidemic, which we talked about
before, on and off the mics, Ithink so much of it is not.
It's not a loneliness epidemic,in my opinion, it's a
resilience epidemic.
We have a lack of resilienceepidemic among men in this
country 100 and it's not.
And that doesn't mean you'renot physically strong enough to
deal with what life throws it's.
(00:21):
You're not emotionally strongenough or mentally tough, yes to
deal with what life throws atyou.
Welcome back to the mindfullymasculine podcast.
This is charles all right.
This week, dan and I continueour deep dive into the themes of
masculinity in the white lotusseason three.
This is episode seven, whichwas titled killer instincts.
We'll be getting into some ofthe antics of r and Frank, the
(00:43):
family dynamics, the rat lifts,guy Talk's interesting date with
Mook, and we'll talk aboutthemes like resilience,
financial independence and someof the challenges men face in
today's world.
We hope you enjoy thisthought-provoking discussion and
check out our website,mindfullymasculinecom, for full
video episodes, audio episodesand anything else we feel like
(01:04):
sharing.
Thanks, hey Charles.
How are else we feel likesharing?
Thanks.
Dan (01:07):
Hey Charles, how are you?
Charles (01:09):
I'm well, dan, thank you.
How are you?
I'm doing well, doing well.
We're coming up on episodeseven of Head Lotus, which this
is one of my favorite episodesof the season.
I really enjoyed it.
This and the finale, I wouldsay, were probably my two
favorite episodes.
So it's nice really ramping upthis episode's titled killer
instincts.
Based on some of the discussionthat guy talked and I don't
(01:32):
know what, what's mook's realname?
I thought that was her real.
I don't think that's hernickname.
Let's check real quick.
What is mook's name on whitelotus?
Okay, well, portrayed by lalisamanabal, widely recognized as
lisa from the k-pop groupblackpink.
(01:52):
Yeah, I did not know her fromthat I did from yeah, my
girlfriend's daughter probably.
Dan (01:58):
Wow, yeah, she's like, oh, she recognized her right away
too, like she just walked by thetelevision as she was on set on
the screen and she's like, oh,oh, that's so-and-so and I was
like what?
Yeah?
Charles (02:12):
I had no idea.
I had no idea either.
So Mook translates to Pearl.
Oh, cute.
But I just asked is that thecharacter's real name or
nickname?
Okay, no, her name isT-h-i-d-a-p-o-n, so teed upon
okay oh, teed upon sorenson, letme, let me see how sorenson no?
(02:35):
No, not sorenson.
Let me see, that's a mix.
How to pronounce that name?
Okay, the th is usuallypronounced t, we know that.
So let's see tita, tita pon allright, sorensen would be her
(02:57):
full name, so that's one word.
No two words.
Dan (03:01):
But her last name, sorensen , is s-o-r-n-s-i-n, so there's
no, there's no e in there gotcha, it's like swedish.
Charles (03:09):
It's not swedish, sorry , yeah, sorenson sorenson okay
yes, so all right, you call hermook for obvious reasons.
She seems to have no problemwith the nickname.
I mean, over here, if youreferred to a girl as mook, I
don't know if they would likethat, but I assume they're all
and fine, yeah, so, yeah, herand guy talk had a conversation
about well, we'll get to thatabout many things, and I thought
(03:32):
it was an interestingconversation.
Multiple conversations they hadwere had some interesting
things.
We'll start with rick and frank,which was a really I mean it
was a funny like kind of caperthat they were engaging in, but
also with that sort of darkundercurrent of okay, what's
this guy gonna do?
Is he gonna freak out?
Is he gonna shoot somebody?
What's what's gonna happen?
So, so rick and frank show upproposing as director and
(03:55):
producer at the house of thelady and guy that owned the
white lotus resort and, yeah,frank is going off the rails.
Pretty early on in the processhe orders a tea and then changes
his order to whiskey.
Yep, he's been sober for what?
three years or something likethat and so, yeah, I think he he
just was not up to the stressof going through this charade it
(04:19):
was just so funny, entertaining, watching frank try to yeah
pretend to be this director who?
Watched and pretended no thingsthat he obviously didn't know.
And what is his way through?
Dan (04:29):
right.
She's like oh, how did you know?
I, the whole, she's totallygiving him the inquisition.
It's just great how it was allthe time I'm more of a visual
kind of person, that's adirector right, yeah, and then,
what movies have you directed?
Charles (04:42):
what movies have I directed action.
What movies have I directed?
Action movies the Executioner,it was right.
It was like two real names,like the Executioner and the.
Dan (04:55):
Notary my favorite was the Notary.
It was a trilogy, yeah.
Charles (05:03):
So I mean yeah.
Dan (05:04):
The.
Charles (05:05):
Enforcer, the Enforcer, enforcer the executioner and
the notary.
It was great.
Yeah and yeah.
That yeah, sam rock, and youalways wonder how much of that
is written and how much is hecoming up with and and and.
Dan (05:17):
He's like.
She's like oh, what's it about?
Oh, it's about a prostitute whoturns into a madam, who I
thought this was supposed to beabout.
My life Like.
You're here to figure that out.
Very powerful, she knows allthe secrets of all the most
powerful men in Thailand.
She's like all right.
Charles (05:32):
Yeah, yeah, it was so funny to see they were just.
Dan (05:38):
That was well done.
Charles (05:39):
They weren't well prepared for this thing, clearly
Seeing them sort of stumbletheir way through it.
Dan (05:50):
They pulled it off.
Charles (05:50):
Rick got what he wanted .
He got the the one-on-oneconfrontation with this guy,
yeah, and thankfully did notdecide to shoot him or kill him
or anything.
He just right, just kind ofwent at him.
Yeah, guy got scared and triedto protect himself.
Rick felt bad for him, knockedhim over his chair.
Dan (06:04):
Then they left yep, but it was smart when he's just like he
told the bot on their way outrunning out.
Yeah, old body goes, old manfell.
You better go take care of himso that they can make the escape
.
I mean, rick's got rick'spretty smart when it comes to
yeah, oh, I think.
Charles (06:17):
What do you want?
It's clear that he's engaged insome pretty shady behavior
before he knows how to do it.
Yeah, he's.
He's savvy, yeah, so, and then,at the end of it, rick feels
like he accomplished what he setout to accomplish, and it's
been resolved, and we yeah, hethrows the gun in the garbage.
Can right, right, we're likehe's we're right to be skeptical
(06:38):
that in the penultimate episodeit's really resolved.
It's like, okay, no, how's thisgonna blow back on him?
Dan (06:43):
yeah, is the is the question that I was left with
well, I mean, looking at it justfrom this episode, he's he
throws the gun in the garbage.
He's like let's go party rightand and and doesn't have to get
his arm twisted when frank isready to go after he had that
drink.
It's like all right.
Charles (06:58):
He is how it often works uh-huh people struggling
with addiction, like it alltakes one to get you back in the
patterns.
Yeah, yeah, there was someinteresting discussion by his
girlfriend.
What's her name?
Again, chelsea, chelsea.
Yeah, her and Saxon had someconversations about Rick, where
it was like, about theirconnection and how, the first
(07:21):
day I met him, he told me hislife story.
I thought, okay, well, that'sinteresting.
Is that because Rick is just anhonest and vulnerable guy?
Or it is possible to use yourstory and inappropriate levels
of self-disclosure to sort ofreel people in?
And I was wondering is thatwhat he did?
(07:42):
Or is he just a super honestand open guy?
It doesn't really seem that way.
Or did he use his sob story andhis emotional disclosures to
her as a way to sort of suckerinto his world?
Dan (07:57):
Yeah, I would say B because he's not looking to get healed
right.
She said they've got a yin andyang relationship and she's like
I, just I'm hoping he's pain orsomething right and she's like
eventually one of us is gonnawin.
So yeah, that is.
And he didn't look like hewanted any help.
I mean, up until this pointdoesn't look like he wanted her
help at all.
So I think he was using it toget hit what he needed at her?
Charles (08:20):
I think so too.
I feel like, yeah, there is toobad, because it'd be nice if
they were just two hurt, damagedpeople who found each other and
were able to meet each other'sneeds.
But now, with her talking abouthim that way, it feels a little
bit more like he's the predatorout to get what he needs from
the world, oh for sure, andshe's just getting swept up in
(08:41):
that oh yeah, which is whichmakes it even sadder when you
you see how loving and how muchshe cares about him where I
don't know man, that is kind ofa bummer, yeah.
Dan (08:51):
I mean, Frank even asks him before they go off and party.
He's like, hey, did you get youwhat you needed out of that?
Or something along those linesright, yeah.
So Rick said yeah, yeah, so.
Charles (09:08):
Yeah, rick's.
Rick said yeah, no.
So yeah, but again, and I sayit was a very poorly planned
like philosophically andpragmatically, the whole thing
was badly planned.
Like, if you say it real fastand you've not done any work on
yourself, it might seem yeah,that sounds like a great idea,
that sounds like exactly how tosolve your problem.
But you dig just a little bitunder the surface about what his
issues are and it's like, okay,maybe you solve this problem,
(09:29):
but you're just going to be onto the next problem.
So, yeah, I, I don't see you'regetting at the wrong, almost
certainly not.
Yeah, so, okay, more upsettingthings about saxon and his dad
and the rest of the family.
I mean, saxon went to his dadand said, hey, I'm noticing all
(09:50):
of your sort of erratic behaviorhere and what's going on.
And I think I think at thebeginning the dad may have
admitted that it was just workstuff or something like that,
but that, yep, that did not helpallay Saxon's fears, because
that's when he disposed like,okay, my work is all I have and
(10:14):
my work is tied to your work ina way that will never be
separated or divided.
People will only ever see me asyour son.
So if there's a problem withwork, that means there's a
problem with my life.
Dan (10:25):
Yeah, he's like I have no hobbies, I've got no interests.
This is it, this is my basket.
Yeah, I'm tied to you.
And he's like I don't mindbeing tied to you, but if I,
since I am, you gotta let meknow.
Right, I need to.
Tim's lies to his face and he'sjust like no, everything's good
, go have a good time.
We're here to have a good time,don't worry about it.
(10:47):
Basically, and it just afterhis son basically begs him.
We're shaking a lot.
Charles (10:53):
It's okay, yeah, I mean after, yeah, when it's.
It's just such a such a toxiccycle between the two of them,
because it's like when the songoes to him with that, his
impulse is not okay.
I need to level with this kidand be honest with him so he
knows exactly what's going onand can prepare for it.
(11:13):
It's no, I'm going to doubledown on no, everything's fine.
When it's clearly not fine,yeah, and then it turns into let
me start thinking aboutmurder-suicide.
Dan (11:23):
Yeah, because he just looks at his family as being so
fragile that they can't handleanything.
So now he's got to put him outof his misery.
Basically right, because he'snot gonna be able to handle it
yeah, and look, I mean, is hisfamily that fragile?
Charles (11:36):
probably not most.
Most humans are more resilientthan we give them credit for,
but if they are that fragile,it's because he made them that
way, because he needed them thatway yeah yeah, and so, yeah, I
have very, very little love fortimothy in this, especially when
he starts thinking I knowwhat's best for them, and what's
(11:56):
best for them is if they'rejust dead.
That yeah I.
I have a very visceral, angryreaction to that.
When I see it, I'm like thisson of a bitch.
I mean, it infuriates me thathe would take on probably
because of my own level, my ownrelationship to autonomy and
independence the idea thatanybody would take on making
(12:18):
that decision for another person, like, oh, you can't handle
this, so you'd be better offdead.
And so his, his, his murder,suicide fantasies are, for lack
of a better word, verytriggering to me and how dare
you so?
Dan (12:33):
I I could definitely I agree with you there on that
point with saxon.
But his wife basically said he,he said she's like I don't know
if I could live like I don't, Idon't know if I'd want to live
without that money and stufflike that.
That's true.
That probably poisoned his minda little bit.
Charles (12:50):
I'm sure it did, but it's still not saying hey, if
anything ever goes sideways,just kill me.
Even people that would saystuff like that for dramatic
effect in most cases would notactually not mean it, and so,
yeah, I mean it's.
Dan (13:06):
But now he's in this altered state of mind because
he's popping those pills, he'sdrinking, he's under that crazy
amount of stress.
Charles (13:11):
He knows he wouldn't want to live, so all of that is
a filter that he's using now tointerpret this information yeah,
and whether, whether the peoplein that family are, clinically
speaking, narcissists or not,right, they certainly display
many narcissistic tendencies andso, yeah, that that can be a
driver for I mean people, peoplelike that in that position
(13:34):
struggling with those issues canoften feel like, okay, well,
I'd be, I'd be better off deadthan having anybody see me for
what I really am, and the vastmajority do not actually hurt
themselves when faced with thosekinds of setbacks, but some of
them do.
And yeah, it's a messed upsituation and honestly, I do
(13:58):
blame Timothy, for I mean, look,you can't have it both ways.
If you want to be a atraditional gender role, family
role kind of guy where the man'sthe provider, blah, blah, blah,
I was like okay, but then whenthings go south and your family
starts to fall apart because youweren't who you actually said
(14:21):
you were, then that burden's onyou too and it's your job to
clean up that mess, not notnecessarily theirs.
I mean, ultimately, everybody'sresponsible for their own
actions and their own mentalhealth.
But it's like, look, thisratliff built this whole life
for his family where I'm the bigshit, I'm the provider, I'm the
millionaire or potentiallybillionaire, and so love me
(14:45):
because I'm those things andthen, okay, now I may not be
those things anymore.
So why are they?
Why would they continue to loveme?
It's like, yeah, good question,why would they?
I mean, you haven't investedanything in your connections, in
your relationships.
Yeah, all you've been right off, yeah, all you've been is a
conduit for wealth and status,and so, yeah, you're no longer
the conduit for wealth andstatus.
(15:06):
It's a fair question to saywhat use will they have for you,
right?
Maybe none, yeah, and now yougot to live with that too.
Dan (15:13):
Yeah yeah, it's interesting that mike white does that.
In a lot of the the lotusepisode, like the white lotus
seasons, there's always somebodyin there where money is
basically being used as asubstitute for or for other
qualities or is sacrifice.
Charles (15:31):
The other qualities are sacrificed for having a lot of
a lot of money right yeah, and Ithink that I can't say what the
percentages or proportions ofthat are.
But but for a lot of the verywealthy people that show up at
four seasons or four seasonsadjacent resorts for multiple
weeks, for not even multipleweeks, so just a week-long
(15:52):
vacation in a place like that isvery expensive, and so the
people who have that money haveprobably had to sacrifice
something to get that level ofaffluence that they can afford
it.
And what is it they had tosacrifice?
For some it was theirconnection.
It was health.
It was.
For some of them maybe not, butyou know, I think, I think it's
.
It's legitimate to say okay, welook at a group of people
(16:14):
showing up at this place who canafford to be at this place yeah
so they've made some trade-offsto be there yeah, another one
is greg right.
Dan (16:23):
He made some trade-offs with his values and his morals
by killing off his, his ex-wife,who thinks, I don't know for
sure no.
But but now he's bribingbelinda in this episode right to
kind of keep her mouth shut.
She's now wrestling with herown ethics and morals for
accepting that money or orconsidering accepting that money
, right yeah.
Charles (16:43):
So I guess that is a legitimate question of what did
he do or not do?
And is he just like okay, I wasjust a government employee.
My rich wife was on a boat withsome guys.
I wasn't there.
She ends up killing I believekilling many of them yeah and
(17:04):
they then taking a tumble offand bonking her head and
drowning.
Yeah, and so do I want to dealwith the stigma of that, or do I
want to change my name and takeher money and go live somewhere
else in peace?
I assume he was involved in it.
Yeah, I think it's certainly an80 or 90 chance that he was
involved in it.
(17:24):
But what he's saying is notinstantly verifiable as being
false either.
Like it's like.
Oh, he's definitely lying, andthat's why.
That's why the story withBelinda is interesting, because
she can't know for sure that hedefinitely killed her.
What he's telling her could bethe truth, and so that gives her
an out to say, okay, I'll, I'lltake his money and leave him
(17:48):
alone, because there is a chancethat he's telling me exactly
what truly happened and if it'snot, she's minimizing her risk
of getting rubbed out.
Correct the way, blint, the wayhis wife did yeah, which is
which which raises aninteresting point what's the
safest thing for belinda to do,right, is it?
Is it refuse the money?
Is it take the money?
Is it push for more money?
(18:09):
I would say it's either refusethe money or take the money.
I think refusing the moneymight be the safest thing for
her.
I don't know, you don't thinkso.
Dan (18:18):
I don't think so he knows that, she knows who he really is
.
I don't think that's the safestroute.
I don't think that's the safestroute.
I don't see and neither did,neither did his son in that
episode either.
Charles (18:29):
See, I would worry if I , if you, if you take the money,
then he can think down the roadokay, she took the money, she
could come after me for moremoney at some point down the
road where, if she was able tosell him on the idea she didn't
ask for the money, that's true,it's not like she was.
Dan (18:46):
She was able to sell him on the idea she didn't ask for the
money.
That's true.
It's not like she was.
She was extorting him.
It was true give me money, orI'm gonna say something right.
He was like here's some moneyfor your business and letting me
live in peace in exchange.
So this was coming from him.
So in that, in that respect, I.
Charles (19:03):
I think I mean if I was in his position, which I never
would be if somebody came to mewith the listen.
I appreciate the offer.
I'm not taking the money, butI'm also never opening my mouth
to anybody, so I am not someoneyou have to pay off or worry
about.
Dan (19:18):
She did say that too.
She's like I need to sleep onit.
I'm not looking to make yourlife more difficult or anything
else like that, but I need tosleep on it.
So we'll see.
Charles (19:28):
I guess we'll see.
I guess they're.
They're both probably prettyeven that taking the money, not
taking the money, it's based onwhat you say when you take the
money or take the money.
I think that's probably the.
That's part of it too,absolutely yeah.
So I don't know, I mean know.
I mean I think the most moralthing to do if you think that he
killed his wife is to not takethe money.
Dan (19:48):
call all the police, but she said in that year she's like
what police do we call the thaipolice, italian police,
american police?
Charles (19:55):
just call all the police yeah, I, you know maybe
that there's nothing she can dolegally to get him in trouble.
Right, she wanted to.
Dan (20:03):
But like what.
So I mean, yeah, I mean I guessthe police would just grab him
because they couldn't questionhim or something, I think,
because he left right.
Charles (20:13):
It would depend on what evidence they had and what the
extradition treaty was and allthat I don't know.
I imagine most of these peopleare in Thailand because there is
no extradition treaty for wherethey're at.
Sorry, my phone is going off,even though I do not deserve.
I'm not sure it's just my watchthat is not obeying the do not
(20:35):
deserve.
Let me see what I have to doabout that.
Bear with me here.
Silent mode is on now.
Yeah, so that is a certainly aninteresting situation.
Look, while we're talking,while we've addressed the rat
lifts and greg, this sexualsituation that the girlfriend is
(20:57):
asking for with saxon, right,yes, yes.
So greg had an issue, I guess,when he was a kid.
His parents were leaving thedoor open while they were having
sex with each other so that hecould see and hear what was
going on.
Let's be clear that's abuse.
Yeah, he was abused and as aresult of that abuse, he has
developed some maladaptivesexual behavior.
(21:22):
And the thing that, anotherthing that made me roll my eyes
at Saxon was this idea of himacting like he's too good to
participate in this, like Iwouldn't say yes to it either,
but he's willing to have sexwith this guy's wife behind his
back and act like that's fine,but he's not going to have sex
(21:45):
in front of the guy's back withhis wife because that's wrong.
I mean, and I definitely gotthe hold on.
I never said that's wrong, butit was like that's what do you
think I?
I'm not that kind of yeah.
He was definitely moralizingthere where he's actually too
good to participate in thatbehavior, right where it's like
it's okay to say I'm not intothat, I don't want to do it.
But the idea of it's fine to bethe guy that's banging his wife
(22:08):
behind his back, but I'm too,I'm too, yeah, right, engage in
this weird threesome stuff yeah,like well, I think I think he's
a prick.
Dan (22:17):
Yeah, I think he also was probably freaked out from what
happened with his youngerbrother.
I'm sure you mean that drovehim to a little bit more
conservative side, because it'sstill because he's.
Charles (22:27):
He's a little messed up in the head now yeah, I, I
could get that, but it stilldoesn't give you an excuse to
act like you're too good for forsomething that somebody else is
into.
I mean the I should never.
The response should be I'm notinto that.
I'm not gonna do that and bestof luck to you.
But you know the the idea ofcondescending to what somebody's
into, right, because you're toogood for that behavior,
(22:51):
especially coming from him, isvery suspect and very cringy.
Yeah, so I think.
But you're right, he's dealingwith a lot of stuff right now
between the dads Because I'msure he doesn't believe his
dad's assurances.
Why would he Correct believehis dad's assurances?
Dan (23:05):
why would he correct?
And I mean, I think he wasalready skeptical when he found
out that greg knew that theyslept together.
I remember he was alreadyreluctant to go to the party,
but then he's up for it and hebrings his whole family yeah,
that's so I think, I think he'sshowing his.
he's got all these conflictsabout who he is and and, and you
(23:28):
know what he's about as well,because then he's, maybe he has
a conversation with Chelseaabout oh, I could be spiritual
and I could, I might surpriseyou, and they even go, and they,
they.
She tries to get him tomeditate and and she's a little
touchy, yeah, she has that.
Charles (23:44):
Yeah, and and she's a little touchy, yeah, she has to
end it.
Yeah, yeah, when he, when hewas remarking on all the old
guys there with the, the youngwomen, young wives or whatever,
don't they don't?
They know that they're onlyinterested for their money.
And she's like, yeah, that'syou in 30 years.
He's like, why are you so meanto me?
That's not, yeah, look, I meanrich or poor.
Patrick schwarzenegger looks,or greg looks.
(24:06):
It's like, yeah, if you're not,if you're not authentically
connecting with people, you willeither end up alone or with
people who are with you forreasons other than who you
actually are, and so chelsea wasabsolutely right.
If he stays the course, he isgoing to be one of those guys,
because you're yeah, you're notgoing to, you're not going to
attract people based on the fakeversion of you that you put out
(24:28):
there and it's so ironicbecause the mom is having a
conversation with one of theyoung girls there and she's like
oh, why are you with this old?
Dan (24:36):
this guy was because of the money.
He's like.
She's like if, if you're indanger, let me know I'll.
I'll get you out of this andand she's just right.
And she's just like no, I love,I love him.
And she's like and she's likeyou can't ask me that the mom
was just like.
I can get you out of this.
Charles (24:52):
So yeah, that whole family is so judgmental, so
Lachlan is hanging out with hissister at the at the and he's
he's getting stuff out of it,he's having a good experience.
I mean, some of that could be inresponse to what he went
through with his brotherrecently too, and then he ends
(25:13):
up saying that he wants to do agap year and stay there with her
and she reacts unfavorably toit.
She doesn't really get into thereasons why, but she's kind of
not into him and her doing ittogether.
That's clear, and I could tellthat that the actor did a good
job of communicating.
That hurt his feelings andconfused him a little bit.
Like what's the?
Yeah what's that about?
Dan (25:31):
And it's true, I at that age I probably would have been
confused too, Like she was soexcited to have him there to
spend the night with, with her.
And then now he's just like, oh, I'm really into this, so she,
and she's just like I need tothink about it kind of thing.
Charles (25:47):
Yeah, yeah, that was not a very kind reaction.
Dan (25:50):
I felt bad for Kim.
Charles (25:51):
I did too, absolutely, but they definitely close the
loop on that in the next episodeand go into more detail.
Dan (25:58):
He's like I don't want to let my dark pastures out of
Dexter, but my dark, my darkshit come out, kind of thing.
So he's, he's gonna need to bethere.
It wasn't anything.
I feel superficial.
Charles (26:12):
And then she's, she's just like whoa, which I think in
his case, I think that darkshit was basically just a
ineffectively managed my desireto connect to my brother.
Yeah, now I feel guilty over it, I don't 100 yeah super
complicated.
I think it was just.
That was a weird thing thathappened and now I feel bad
about it.
Yeah, and so he's like let mego away for a year and work it
(26:35):
out, which there are worse wayshe could for sure try to get up
to that.
All right, let's get to a guytalking yes, so they're out on
what looks like a date.
Dan (26:46):
She's got a cute little dress on.
I liked it.
Charles (26:48):
Yeah, I think he certainly thought it was a date
and treated it like a date.
I don't know what her long-termintentions were, but she kind
of communicated some of them,which was he told her about the
conversation he had with hisboss, where he doesn't have the
killer instinct and he is tryingto be a moral Buddhist who
doesn't pursue violence, and shedoesn't really seem all that
(27:11):
into it.
Dan (27:11):
Yeah, she's like well, it was in defense.
She's like in defense it's okayand you live in this world and
you need to be strong.
So she's putting a littlepressure on him yeah, and look
she is.
Charles (27:24):
She's allowed to be attracted to what she's
attracted to.
She's allowed to search forwhat she's searching for in a
potential mate or partner.
And it's not a guy talks job orour job or really any guy's job
or really any person's job tosay you're immoral because
you're not attracted to what I'moffering where I tend to see
more of that on men's, on themen's side than the women's side
(27:46):
, at least in our Westernsociety of girls are what
they're into.
And if you're into a girl who'snot into you or due to lack of
a particular characteristic thatshe's attracted to, then okay,
well then we'll insult andderide her for not being into
what I am.
(28:06):
That happens online veryfrequently.
In real life I'm not sure howoften it happens, but certainly
I just girls.
There will be girls who areinto muscular men.
There will be girls who areinto tall men.
There will be girls who areinto black men, white men,
whatever bald men, all men orwell-haired men, I mean they're,
(28:27):
yeah people.
Judging people for what they'reinto does not seem like the
right thing to do or make a lotof sense it's a waste of time,
yeah, so.
Dan (28:37):
So what are you going to talk them into being into
something that they're not?
Charles (28:40):
come on, guy talk does not seem to have the
predilection for, or even thestomach for, physical violence.
Which good?
I mean you, ideally not, notevery, not every guy has to
behave as if it's their job tofend off the raiding village
raiding party from the villagenext door.
(29:01):
I mean we know, we don't livein that world anymore those guys
should not be security guardscorrect.
I agree with that.
Yeah right, yeah you, if you'rewilling, if you want to be a
security guard, yeah then orattract women who like security
guards correct, then you need tobe prepared for the reality of
your situation.
And she mentioned something likeI thought you were ambitious, I
(29:23):
thought you wanted a better job.
Like you can be ambitious andyou can want a better job
without necessarily being in thesecurity industry, there are
other things you could be doingand should be doing.
I mean, yeah, if your job Iwould say for a security guard
(29:44):
more than other jobs you have tobe prepared for the fact that
you might need to put your handson somebody in a violent way.
Dan (29:51):
I mean, I think in this case, one possibility is that
Mook doesn't necessarily want asecurity job, a guy who's in
security but maybe who'sambitious, Right.
So you could have a differentjob but just be the best
whatever you're doing.
It could be in that, in thatfield right it could be.
Charles (30:09):
The issue that she has with him is hey, you're in,
you're in a job where you'retelling me that you don't have
or desire the skills for the jobthat you're in, so what kind of
a future could you possiblyhave in that job and what kind
of a future could you have assomebody that you know I want to
(30:30):
build a financially solidhousehold with, when you're
saying I'm in this job and Idon't have, I don't want to have
, the skills that the jobrequires.
So, yeah, something along thelines of hey, my plan is to get
into this other job or field orwhatever may or may not offset
this for her, because, look,there are plenty of fields where
(30:52):
you don't have to have anyinterest in getting violent with
people and you can excel andand not have that.
That said, there's still.
Look, I think there's going tobe a concern on behalf of most
women who want to feel like,okay, if I'm with a guy, then I
want to be fairly confident thatif something unexpected and
(31:14):
violent happens, he's going tobe able to get me out of that
situation safely.
Yeah, that doesn't meannecessarily being the strongest
guy in the room who could beateverybody else up or the guy
who's willing to pull out a gunand shoot everybody.
But, like I need to know thatyou're prepared to navigate
those unpleasant circumstances.
We might find ourselves in rightand the fact that he's a
security guard who hatesviolence is a is a communicator
(31:39):
of.
Hey, I might not be the guythat knows how to.
When I'm in, when I'm in asituation, I may not know what
it takes to handle thatsituation, because a guy who
abhors violence doesn't knowwhat it takes to be a security
guard.
Dan (31:51):
Yeah, but also, what kind of how are you operating in this
world if you are kind ofsticking yourself into a
situation where you are settingyourself up for failure and
you're not doing anything tochange that, because literally
you are not, I mean, unless youchange jobs?
But you, if you're not changingjobs, then you're kind of
(32:14):
setting yourself up for failure,right, and it's just like if
you don't have the, if you don'thave the wherewithal to realize
that that's what you're doing,or you don't have the motivation
to change it, that's also not agood situation that you want to
align yourself with.
If you're a partner of thatperson, right?
Charles (32:28):
yeah, and I mean I don't know what it's like in
thailand, but here I know youhave to get some training and
education to be a security guard, but it's not years and years
of your life, you know.
So I mean the same process thatyou, you followed to become
whatever level of certifiedsecurity guard you have to in
thailand.
Yep, the same money and timeand whatever could probably be
(32:48):
spent developing some otherskill that you could have a
better shot at moving up aladder and and getting to where
you want to be financially yeah,I had friends who basically
they wanted to be cops and theystarted out as security guards.
Dan (33:00):
But that's because that was a logical progression.
They didn't, they weren't like,wanted to be doctors and
started out security guards likeno, no, no or vice versa.
It's not.
Charles (33:10):
Yeah.
So one of the things I'venoticed I've heard and seen a
lot of memes over the lastcouple of weeks about the male
loneliness epidemic which wetalked about before on and off
the mics.
I think so much of it is not,as it's not a loneliness
epidemic In my opinion, it's aresilience epidemic.
We have a lack of resilienceepidemic among men in this
(33:32):
country 100%.
And it's not.
And that doesn't mean you're notphysically strong enough to
deal with what life throws atyou, you're not emotionally
strong enough or mentally toughyes to deal with what life
throws at you.
And I think, guys, one of themost valued skills I see in the
people that I considersuccessful is they can honestly
(33:53):
and openly put all of theireffort and desire into
accomplishing something and then, when it doesn't work out, they
can say, man, that sucks.
I really put everything I hadinto that and I didn't get the
result I wanted to.
I'm going to take a minute,lick my wounds and then get back
to the next goal and whetherthat is in pursuing a job,
pursuing a woman, whatever it is, this ability and I think what
(34:17):
happens is when guys don't havethat example from their fathers
or a mentor that says here's howyou do that, then as soon as
they hit the first roadblock ofI tried to get this thing, this
person, this job, whatever itdidn't work out.
Now I'm just going to go backinto my cocoon and be lonely,
and I think a lot of the guysthat I see struggling with that
(34:42):
loneliness it's because they'renot willing to put themselves
out there a second time forwhatever it was that they were
going after.
Yeah, because the first timehurt so bad.
Dan (34:52):
And or they don't have enough examples of somebody
going through that and actuallyeventually succeeding and seeing
the payoffs, but also, like yousaid, is seeing how you recover
from that failure.
Charles (35:06):
It's one thing to read about or whatever, but if you
have somebody close to you inyour life that you can actually
look at and see going through it, that's so much of a better
teacher yeah, and, and I and theone, the many of these
characters in this show reek ofa lack of resilience to me and I
tell you the being soft in thatway, which soft is a lot of
(35:32):
baggage with that term and it'sa very big term.
But from shows like this andwitnessing the news, popular
media, social media, being asoft man is not limited to any
kind of group as far as race,ethnicity, religion, political
leanings and even well, I mean,this show has some very rich,
(35:54):
very soft men who just cannot,cannot grapple with life on
life's terms because they're,they just don't have what it
takes and I would say eventhere's, there's a chance that
wealth and affluence may evenmore poorly prepare you, for me,
for your life of resiliencethan being poor does.
Dan (36:13):
Oh, absolutely, because you need to figure anything out,
and there's a lot lessconsequences when you can't
figure something out, and Ithink I don't think that you
need to be rich and affluent forthat to be a factor.
These days, with technology andalmost all the progress that
we've made as human beings andtools and everything else that
we have to make our lives easier, we don't need to figure out as
(36:35):
much stuff on a full human widescale.
So you're right, I think it'snot preparedness when we fail
and when we have to figurethings out.
That's when we become resilient.
So that's why, a lot of times,we need to actually practice
that intentionally.
In order to become resilient isto figure things out.
We need to, like, put our ownchallenges and obstacles in our
(36:57):
own way in order to to figureout how to, how to get stuff
done.
Charles (37:02):
Right, yeah, yeah.
Dan (37:03):
And if we don't, then you're right.
Where are we getting thattraining from?
It's not just from daily life.
No, certainly I think we've gotto be intentional with it these
days and it's a mixed blessingit is possible to.
Charles (37:14):
There.
There are people who didn't getit and realized, oh, I, I'm
lacking this, I need to go findthis and you can go out there
and you can find the stories ofauthors, coaches, people who got
done the kinds of things thatyou want to get done and came
from the kinds of places youcame from.
But I mean, the optimal way toget that is going to be, as a
(37:34):
man, from your dad and but youknow, so that's another way you
could say the male lonelinessepidemic is related to the male
fatherhood epidemic, becausethere's a lot of dads out there
who didn't get it from their dad, so how are they going to pass
it along to their sons if it'snot?
Yeah, fatherhood epidemic,because there's a lot of dads
out there who didn't get it fromtheir dad, so how are they
going to pass it along to theirson if it's not?
yeah and you know when, when yourealize, okay, my, I don't have
(37:58):
the skills that I need, so Ineed to go find them.
That's a mixed blessing, too,because there's a lot of people
out there who will sellthemselves, as I have the
answers that you're looking for,and they really don't have the
answers that will lead to anykind of health or happiness, but
they do have the answers thatwill lead to them getting rich
and and I, yeah, and I share mypersonal belief is that the, the
(38:21):
male, the male health andwellness or the masculinity
business is ripe with grifterswho will will tell you a story
that both makes them rich andlook super tough and super
successful, but it doesn'treally lead to the kinds of
fulfillment or relationships orhealth or happiness that you,
(38:44):
you actually want deep down.
So it's just you'll bounce fromgrievance to grievance your
whole life.
Who am I going to be angry atnow for not having the things
that I want?
And it doesn't really doanything.
Whereas if you can develop thatresilience, you can very easily
say oh, okay, this guy's gotsome interesting things to say.
I'm going to dig a little bitdeeper.
And then you dig a littledeeper and you're like this,
(39:07):
this guy's still bullshit.
I don't want to dedicate yearsof my life listen to what he has
to say.
And when you're mentallyresilient and emotionally
resilient, you can say, okay,well, that was interesting.
I wasted some time on this guy,but now I can say I was wrong
and move on to somebody better.
Yeah, where?
Again, if you lack thatresilience, it's like no, I, I
bought this guy's torch, now I'mstuck for life.
(39:28):
I gotta, I gotta sound like anact like this guy for the rest
of my life.
Because admitting I was wrong,that I hitched my wagon to the
wrong horse.
I couldn't handle that, so nowI'm stuck.
Yeah, and so, yeah, there's noeasy answers to this.
I feel like there are some goodsmart guys out there talking
about about these struggles goodsmart guys out there talking
(39:50):
about about these struggles, butnot enough of them.
So hopefully we'll get threelisteners to this episode
instead of the usual two andwe'll hey, we'll have huge
growth, huge spike progress, notperfection, exactly hockey,
hockey stick growth.
All right, thanks, dan.
I can't wait to talk about thefinale finale sweet sounds good
all right.
Thanks so much for sticking withus for the entire episode.
We certainly appreciate it.
Again, check out our websitemindfullymasculinecom for full
(40:12):
video and audio episodes andjoin us next week when we're
going to review the finale, thelast episode of this season of
White Lotus and what happens toall these characters.
Thanks, and we'll talk to younext time.
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