May 19, 2025 • 51 mins
Cobra bites. Financial panic. Fake names. Welcome to Episode 3 of The White Lotus Season 3, where everything is simmering—and masculinity is under a microscope.
Charles and Dan break down:
– Rick’s unraveling sense of self, and why his attempt at “liberating” the snakes says more about him than the snakes
– Whether vengeance ever actually brings closure—or just gives men an excuse to stay broken
– The toxic trap of being “the provider,” and how Timothy weaponizes love and loyalty to protect his crumbling identity
– Gaitok’s slow slide into romantic denial, and why “just being there” isn’t the flex some guys think it is
– What family roles we internalize—and why they can sabotage our adult relationships
Also on the table: bodyguards as metaphor, foreshadowing via astrology and animal dreams, and the difference between saving someone and trying to be seen as a savior.
Smart, honest, and sometimes brutal—just like the episode.
🚨 Spoilers for Episodes 1–3 of White Lotus Season 3
🎧 Watch and listen at mindfullymasculine.com
🌀 Next week: Episode 4. The facades start to crack.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Charles (00:00):
Right and imagine how frustrating that is for your
partner to hear when you're likethank you so much for sharing
that with me.
I really appreciate it, but Idon't believe you.
I think you probably believewhat you're telling me you need
from me, but it's not true.
I know what you actually needfrom me and I dig into how
masculinity shows up flawed,evolving and often off-balance
in the men of the White Lotus.
(00:33):
Today we're unpacking Season 3,episode 3.
This episode gives us men whoare slipping out of sync with
the roles they're trying to play.
Rick's going through themotions, detached, restless and
in no shape to show up for thewoman who cares about him.
Timothy is clinging to control,trying to manage his family's
perception while the groundshifts beneath him and Guy Talk.
(00:54):
He's holding on to a quiet hopefor something more, unsure
whether his patience isthoughtful or just delaying a
truth he doesn't want to face.
There's no full-blown collapseyet, but the masks are starting
to shift and what's underneaththem is what we're here to talk
about.
Let's get into it.
Check out our website,mindfullymasculinecom, for full
(01:17):
audio video episodes andanything else we feel like
sharing.
Dan (01:20):
Thanks, Good morning.
How are you doing?
Charles (01:23):
I'm well, dan.
Thank you, how are you?
Dan (01:24):
I am also doing great.
Charles (01:26):
Okay, we're going to continue our podcast on
discussing masculinity in WhiteLotus season or, yeah, season
three and we're going to hitepisode three, which again that
means there will be spoilers forepisodes one, two and three in
season three.
So if you've not yet watchedthose episodes, you may want to
(01:47):
stop watch them and then comeback to the podcast.
This episode was really justkind of building up to more
stuff that's going to happenlater, and we saw that with Rick
and his situation, the Ratlifffamily and a little bit more
(02:08):
with Guy Top.
So let's talk about Rick first.
This is a crazy episode for Rick.
He's getting more into the.
We're learning more about hismental state and how he feels
about his past and what effectit's having on him.
It's continuing to be rude tohis girlfriend and she's hanging
(02:32):
in there.
She is hanging in there, she.
She really cares about the guy,I wonder.
It's.
It's strange.
It's strange to think about howthey initially got together,
cause it's it's hard to imaginea version of him that is not
preoccupied with this trauma.
Like what?
What was he like when theyinitially got together?
That would have attracted her?
Dan (02:51):
Yeah, and that was made evident when they were out going
for the snake show.
And she's just like, rightbefore that, she's like are we
ever going to have fun again?
Right, I'm like this guy'scapable of having fun, exactly
like I did not get that from himever, like being able to relax.
But maybe if he smokes enoughweed because that's what he's,
that's what he's really cravingand binging, right.
Charles (03:11):
so maybe if he does, he can, he can relax a little bit
yeah, or maybe in the beginningof the relationship she was his
drug, she was his weed, could itknow?
As they met, they wereinitially attracted to each
other.
Littlerens kicked in.
Maybe she served a role ofbeing his drug for a little bit
of time before he got used toher presence and then just
(03:34):
started to devalue her seeminglyall the time.
Where, yeah, he just does not.
Dan (03:40):
And as much as she was getting closer to him, he kept
pushing her away.
There was conversation about ohscore, because he was talking
about how he had to go toBangkok, right, and she's like,
why are you going to Bangkok?
He's like, don't worry about it.
And she's like Scorpio, somysterious.
She's like I'm an Aries, I needeverything to be out in the
open.
And I'd never heard that aboutlike Aries before, but the few
(04:07):
Aries that I know, that's thatdoes hold true.
Like they, they want to knoweverything.
They want to know everythingthat's out there.
But then he throws it in herface.
He throws it in her face lateron, when is just like like
completely like you got me, butat the same time, like I don't
(04:28):
know what to do with this.
Like yeah, you should do that.
Charles (04:30):
You could do that.
But you're right kind of thing.
Yeah, I think I could see.
My ex-wife was an Aries, oh,really, okay, yeah, so and my
friend Lindsay, who I used towork with she's, she's an Aries
and I could see some of it.
I don't I don't subscribe toastrology except when it says
(04:52):
something complimentary about meand then I believe it's a
hundred percent true.
Exactly, I think everybody's.
So Rick is not nice to hisgirlfriend, nice to his
girlfriend and these, thesemeditation sessions he's going
to are they're doing a good jobof stirring up things that he
(05:12):
probably needs to deal with.
Yeah, definitely needs to dealwith.
But then it seems like he'sresponding to those feelings
coming up.
So he he gets high and getsemotional about the snakes being
in captivity and decides heneeds to let them out.
He lets them out and hisgirlfriend gets bit by a cobra
so she has to go to the hospitalto get anti anti-venom so she
(05:36):
doesn't die.
And geez, it's like I wouldhope that in that scenario I
would respond to that by saying,okay, I just did something
crazy.
Someone close to me got hurtreally bad, she could have died.
Now I should probably get mycrap together.
Dan (05:53):
He's just like I was stoned .
Yeah, he, just I have a sexualaddiction when she's like Rick,
yeah, like why would you do this?
Charles (05:59):
How did this happen?
He's like I was stoned.
Dan (06:05):
Literally, he was identifying with the snakes,
like the snakes were trapped,and he feels like he's, he's a
he's a trapped evil type ofthing, right, and he wanted to
be.
He wants to be set free too,and that's that's kind of
foreshadowing what he's doing.
Charles (06:18):
Yeah, and if it does, he does reference kind of
something.
I don't remember how they saidexactly, but it's clear that he
feels like some act of revengeor vengeance or getting even or
something will settle the scoreand then he'll be able to move
on.
And when I was watching theepisode, re-watching the episode
this morning, I I wanted to askyou about that.
(06:39):
It's so.
The vengeance narrative is socommon in literature and in
stories Even go into somebodylike Batman or superheroes or
Hamlet or whatever the Lion King.
There's this thing of I need toget even with the person who
(07:01):
hurt my family and then, once Iget even, I'll be able to.
I've never heard a real lifeexample of that, though, like we
can't stop talking about it infiction, but I don't know
anybody who said, yeah, Isuffered this loss or whatever.
And then, as I got older, I wasable to finally get even with
the person who did it to me andnow everything's great.
I've never heard that happenonce and, to be fair, even in
(07:24):
literature it doesn't often workout great.
Sometimes it does, but for themost part it's like no, the
person seeking the vengeance,seeking to even the scales, ends
up destroying themselves.
Yeah, but in like the Lion King, for example, simba gets rid of
Scar and spoiler alert if youhaven't seen the lion King that
(07:45):
came out 30 years ago.
But he does get even with.
But his, his motivation is notI have to get even, it's more of
I have to.
I have to restore balance to mykingdom.
Dan (07:57):
Yeah, I think the reason why it's so popular is because
it's an emotion we all identifywith and we all have, and that's
ad at a time, yeah, and I guessdepending on our upbringing and
the lessons we've learnedthroughout life will determine
whether we go through with it ornot.
So I'm sure there's people whodo go through with it and
doesn't probably most likelydoesn't work out right, but I
(08:18):
think most of us and most peoplethat we surround ourselves with
don't actually go that far, sowe don't actually see it
actually happening in real lifebecause, thankfully, the people
that we've surrounded ourselveswith stop ourselves before we
take it that far.
Charles (08:35):
Maybe this is a name that those people have done this
.
Dan (08:38):
Maybe because this is a theme throughout history.
This is just one of the thingslike, as a human society, we're
trying to teach people how toexist in society.
The story goes along.
One of those lines of this is alesson Do not do this Right,
don't let it go this far,because these are the
consequences and scaring peopleinto seeing what those
(09:00):
consequences are if we keepgoing with those feelings and
that emotion.
But it's so popular because Ithink we all identify with it.
Yeah, at least at some pointalong the whole actual journey.
Charles (09:10):
I mean, I've felt that.
I've certainly felt that way ofoh, I wish I could get back for
blah, blah, blah, but I'myounger.
Have you ever gotten to thepoint where it's actually done
it?
Dan (09:18):
So here's perfect examples.
Oh, have you ever played avideo game where it's like a
multiplayer game and like you'recompeting against somebody else
?
So for me, perfect example isMario Kart, and someone threw a
banana at me and I spin out orwhatever.
I'm like, ok, all right.
And now it's game on.
And then it's a minor littlething, I want some vengeance,
I'm going to blow by everybodyelse so that I can.
Then I feel like I was wrong,whether it was intentional or
(09:41):
not.
Sometimes you're like, oh allright, I need to get even kind
of thing Right.
It's fun for a video game, butreal life.
Yeah, but imagine that being thenarrative that you base your
whole life on, which is what Iget the impression is Rick's
situation.
What's interesting to me,though, is in this episode, Rick
is about to go to Bangkok andshe's like well, what am I going
(10:02):
to do?
We're going to go on the boat.
And she's like, well, what am Igoing to do?
We're going to go on the boat.
And she's like what am I goingto do on myself?
He goes oh well, mooch off ofsomebody who's richer than I am,
yeah, so I thought and I sawthat I mean I've watched this
episode three times or fourtimes, yeah, and it's the first
time I picked that up and I'mlike, wait a minute at for quite
a bit of time.
There's a lot of money aroundthere.
(10:24):
Rick's doing probably okay forhimself financially, and that
just goes to show that moneydoesn't buy happiness, obviously
.
And it just didn't even occurto me that, yeah, rick probably
has not, probably doesn't have ashittiest life when it comes to
needing for things.
Charles (10:42):
Yeah, but I also get the impression that he's
probably a criminal.
Dan (10:46):
He's probably made his money for sure, yeah, a good
point.
Charles (10:49):
This, so yeah, this and that yeah, between this and
that and him saying during hissecond medication session in
this episode, why not, I tookbad things okay, because things
they're all side, they get theoppression, and then it also
brings in something the Ratliffswere having that discussion
about.
Rich people aren't better Likethere's plenty of trashy rich
(11:13):
people, and I think I mean theycould have even been thinking
back to the experience on theboat with Rick Right Good point,
again, nobody's.
They shoot these episodes atfour season property, four
seasons properties, and so evenfor a place to just look like or
be a stand-in for a force, thewhite lotus is got to be on that
(11:34):
same level as a four seasonsresort.
Yeah, and I can't imagine.
I mean, these people arespending thousands and thousands
of dollars per night to stay inthese.
Yeah, so rick's, rick's.
So yeah, all these people havemoney and so, yeah, it's, except
for the staff, but yeah, he's,he's probably gotten his money
(11:54):
in some not great ways and yeah,yeah, I wonder it.
It'd be great to see more likeofficial not fan fiction
backgrounds of these people.
But part of the fun, like thefun with Lost, was like getting
to know these people a littlebit at a time and see more about
(12:17):
their now lost.
It was literally flashbacks,but with this it's more like
revealing conversations andstuff like that.
But yeah, he's, he's a complexcharacter and it's.
It's interesting how he he isseeking peace and redemption at
some level, but like there'sthere's no reason to believe
(12:38):
he's going to go about doing itin a healthy way that will
actually work for him.
Dan (12:42):
No, no way that will actually work for him.
No, no.
The fact is that he is at leastgoing to meditation sessions
yeah, that's interesting.
Charles (12:51):
Why isn't he just pulling him off?
I'm kind of wondered about that.
Like there's got to be a partof him that that thinks that
there may be some value I mean,I think it's brilliant writing
by our the white writer too.
Dan (13:02):
No, no, I don't remember.
He writes all the episodes.
There are no barbos, whoevercreated.
If he writes all the episodes,or no barless, whoever created,
that is it helps us wonder.
Okay, wait a minute, there'sstill a little hope here, like
he's at least going to thesession.
Charles (13:13):
Yeah, he's being rude, he's being dismissive, but he is
walking through the door, so soit's like okay, it's kind of
keeping an open loop exactly allright.
So let's go on to the Ratlifffamily and what they're up to.
Dan (13:27):
The opening scene was amazing of this episode, I saw
it.
They said they used their housein the, in the, and then like
it helps her and she makes upand it's like like blown away
and isn't sure why I think yeah,and then and then, and then you
know, piper is like hey, yeah,they have the discussion of okay
(13:48):
, do dreams predict the futureor is what's going on?
Charles (13:52):
more likely, a combination of?
She's watching the tsunamivideos I guess the sun is
watching them and so she'sseeing them or they're talking
about them, but also she'sprobably picking up, even if a
subconscious, level of somediscomfort, instability, anxiety
in the patriarch that is, theprovider for the family.
(14:15):
So you put those two together,the tsunami videos with, like,
okay, this guy is starting tounravel a little bit and I'm
picking up the vibe.
Dan (14:26):
And, yeah, that does translate to what you're going
to see in your dreams what'sinteresting is the discussion
that hyper and saxon have atbreakfast, when she's like oh,
this could be a premonition ofthings to come, and saxon says
something was it like fire andsnakes, or or rats and snakes?
I think it's fire and snakes,yeah, but it's interesting.
You said snakes.
When I dream of rats and snakes, I think it's fire and snakes,
yeah, but it's interesting.
(14:46):
You said snakes.
When I dream of rats and snakes, or fire and snakes, it's not
like it doesn't mean anythingother than I'm afraid of fire
and snakes, right.
And then later in the episode,that's when Rick goes and has
the whole snake encounter, yeah,so they do a really nice job of
making a.
Uh, it's, it's almost preprogramming you to already not
like snakes by the time Rickgets there.
Charles (15:08):
Although it's a fear of them, although, yeah, but Rick
has no fear of the snakes, youknow.
He identifies with it insteadof being afraid of it.
But as a viewer.
Dan (15:16):
He did a great job of basically setting the mindset of
snakes are the fear Correct.
Charles (15:22):
Yeah.
Dan (15:22):
Yeah, just just reminding us.
Oh yeah, by the way, snakes arescary, correct.
Charles (15:25):
Yeah, yeah, just just reminding us.
Oh yeah, by the way, snakes arescary.
Yeah, yeah, that was, that wasgood.
And so Timothy is.
Yeah, he's.
He's continuing to get callsfrom outside that are telling
them, informing them on thisdeveloping situation, and yeah,
he's.
Dan (15:44):
Yeah, he's visibly disturbed.
I mean he's, yeah, he's visiblydisturbed.
I mean it's right, sure, so hisfamily starts asking questions.
Ugh, so, which which is makingit putting the pressure on him
even more, because it's like he,I think he's like right at the
breaking point of going, ofbeing concerned that his
family's going to find somethingout.
Charles (15:58):
Yeah, which it it did.
It prompted the question in mewhat is the what's the optimal
or the healthy way to addressthe situation that he's going
through?
So if he was, I mean you couldargue, okay, well, if he was
healthy he wouldn't have lookedfor the shortcut and got himself
into this trouble.
That was another thing I pickedup listening to this episode, I
(16:19):
think when he's on the phonewith he's on the, it wasn't the
one where he's listening to thelawyer.
It was like he was like out of.
He was like out of earshot fromthe rest of the family, I think
, and he was listening to amessage or something.
There was a reference like heformed this fund, like 15 years
ago with Kenny.
So this is like way in the rearview.
(16:40):
This is something he did notexpect to.
Dan (16:42):
Oh, I missed that.
Charles (16:43):
Yeah, I remember hearing like 15 years ago, so
this, this is definitelysomething he thought was buried
in in long in the past.
And then it turns out, not somuch and yeah, I thought that
was interesting, but the yeah,the way he, his son, starts
getting calls from somebody inthe office because they work
(17:06):
together God it was.
It was the way he used hisson's respect and admiration to
manipulate him into giving upthe phone.
It's like Saxon is not the mostsympathetic character, but I
felt I felt bad for the way hisdad was putting putting a number
on him to manipulate him andwork him into giving up his
(17:28):
phone.
That was shitty, I didn't likethat.
But at the same time, you canidentify with the dad in terms
of wanting to protect his sonfrom the mayhem that potentially
and that's why I started to sayI was going to ask you, if
Timothy was a healthy guy, howwould he have dealt with this?
(17:50):
Would he just come out to hisfamily and say, look, there's
something I did in my pastthat's coming out?
There's going to be somebusiness implications.
I've got to go, hop on a planeand get back to town so I can
deal with this.
Or does he cancel the trip foreverybody, or does he try to
compartmentalize it and reallystop freaking out about it and
really give up the phones andjust say, okay, there's nothing,
(18:11):
there's nothing I can do aboutthis in the next four days, or
whatever it is, so I'm gonnawait till we go home and then
I'm gonna deal with it.
I think you got an obligationto tell your family immediately
what's going on and then eitherdecide hey, we have to either
end this vacation or I got tohop on a plane and get out of
here.
Dan (18:27):
Yeah, I think, once you hear the FBI is looking for you,
at that point I think you needto say something.
I think, up until that point Ithink I probably would say all
right, let's see.
I don't know exactly howserious this thing is, right,
right, until you actually go allright, let's see, I don't know
exactly how serious this thingis, right, right until you
actually go all right, look, yes, no, there's nothing that I
(18:47):
feel in my power that I can doat this point to change the
potential really negativeoutcome right at that point,
then yeah, you need this.
Charles (18:53):
When it's just a media scandal where you're like, okay,
my reputation could end uptaking a hit.
They're going to do newsstories about me, that's one.
But it's when it's when the FBIis at your door looking for you
, at the very least.
But you know, when you get onthe phone with your lawyer and
say, okay, do I need to do?
I need to rush back fromThailand so we can deal with
(19:13):
this, or or what, but yeah, Ifeel like once law enforcement's
involved, you got to kind ofgive your family a heads up of
what's going on.
Dan (19:20):
And I think in this episode he feels out and kind of brings
up a little bit.
It starts to, I think, withsomebody about, oh, with his son
we're saying, well, money isnot everything.
It started that when he wasactually trying to manipulate
him into giving up his phone hedid basically say look, money is
not everything.
If we become more, then we canoffer more.
(19:44):
If we open ourselves up to doingmore, we can offer more.
And yes, it's a manipulationtactic, but it's also something
that he was kind of started toput his feelers out in his
family, like, hey, how importantis this life and this money to
you?
And he prided himself from Idon't remember if he gets into
(20:06):
his family, talking about likethe pressure he had about
growing up where I don't know ifthat was this episode.
Charles (20:09):
No, I think that's in the future, but but yeah it's.
I think it's okay to say we dolearn that timothy is not some
self-made man who pulled himselfup from nothing, who was born
poor and it created all this onhis own.
No, but this had a lot of hisvision.
Dan (20:23):
This is a family where both pressure and privilege are kind
of going down through thegeneration right and and he
built a family around privilege,and so, then, that they're, and
I know his impression of themin terms of the way they love
him and the reason why they lovehim is because of this life
that he's been able to providefor them.
Charles (20:42):
Yeah, maybe, yeah, I mean I think that's, but part of
that's on him.
It's like when I build youridentity only as the provider
and not the emotional foundationof your family, then All of us
are just treated for blame forit.
Exactly exactly if you've beenteaching people for decades,
(21:07):
love me because I'm the provider, and then you you're not the
provider anymore, then youshould be scared of them saying,
okay, now, what do I love youfor?
Now?
And it does.
I get the vibe that he set his,his life up that way as love me
because I'm the provider andyou know, and so he's, he's
holding on to that.
Exactly, if that's all youteach, if that's all you've
(21:27):
offered, then it's kind of yourfault.
When, when you're not, that youdon't have that identity
anymore and that's what he feelsis unraveling, his identity as
a provider is going to unravel,then why are these people going
to love me?
It's like, yeah, good question.
Dan (21:41):
Yeah, yeah.
And I think that comes back tothe question that you said is,
if he was healthy, he wouldn'thave gotten that far right.
He wouldn't have, like, stilltried to hide everything from
his family.
But yeah, unfortunately, onceit got out of hand, then he's
all like oh yeah, let's throwour phones in the sack and not
have any.
And I thought that was reallyinteresting.
He's like yeah, I'm going tokeep your watch two sacks and I
(22:03):
forgot.
Yeah, it's a lunar bar starwatch.
Yeah, it's not a watch too.
He's like oh for doing this,we're doing this all the way.
Charles (22:08):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it was yeah, just all in an
effort to protect himself andinsulate really himself.
I was going to and his identity, but not his family.
This is not about him, he'sstrictly his family.
He's protecting himself.
Dan (22:23):
Yeah.
Charles (22:24):
Because, yeah, protect your family.
It's like, okay, I know bigchanges are coming and I'm going
to tell you about it as soon aspossible and, yeah, I think the
right thing to do is end thevacation.
It's like we got to go home.
Sorry, but we got to go home.
Okay, let's see the son, thesons, saxon and Lachlan.
(22:44):
So we talked mostly about Saxon.
He's continuing to be kind ofdouchey with attractive women
that he finds and not being verygood at I mean, I find, any
attention that he's getting fromany of these women.
It's really it's based on hisbravado and based on his looks.
It's not based on himcommunicating anything right
(23:08):
about who he is as a person.
Dan (23:09):
Well, if you remember, he sits down next to cloke, yeah,
at the pool and introduceshimself, her, and she seems very
interested in saying, oh hi,I'm chloe, and and she's a
little flirty with him.
And then the next line is, Ihear you're a douche, yeah, and
then he kind of like laughs itoff a little bit, so it just.
But it goes to show, okay,she's interested, but at the
(23:30):
same time she's testing him alittle bit and seeing how he
handles that, yeah.
And then, if you remember, atdinner she's having her husband
and she sees Saxon across theway to the table.
He gives him an eye and hewaves and that she turns back
and she saw, her husband sawthat thing.
And then she immediately startsgetting nervous, like eating
(23:51):
the food, like really quickly,and stuff.
So she's like so she got caught, something's up.
And yeah, I just I thought thatwas another nice little
premonition in terms of what'swhat, what's what's.
Charles (24:03):
What's it ruin?
Yeah they, they definitely,yeah, they, he.
He develops these characters sowell and I would say it is
worth watching this entireseason a second time at least,
because, yeah, you will pick upon a lot of the foreshadowing
and the hints of what's comingby going back and watching.
Dan (24:24):
And that's part of the fun of it too is if you know what's
going to happen at the end.
You come back and you're justlike, oh my gosh, I see how this
.
And then you really canappreciate the nuance of some of
the scenes and some of theinteractions that just kind of
go completely over your headbecause you don't know it's
important.
Charles (24:42):
Correct, yeah, lachlan's development in this
episode.
He has his posture correctionthing and there's some
interesting stuff that comes outduring the language yes, body
language how he was kind of in aconstant state of submission to
the family members around himthe first thing the instructor
(25:03):
asks him is are you a pleaser,are you a people pleaser?
Dan (25:06):
and he's like well, there's a lot of strong personalities
in my family.
Yeah, that was his answer yeah,and listen.
Charles (25:14):
every, every child has to find their role in their
family, and whether that's asibling, or as a son or a
daughter or whatever, and weplug ourselves into the roles
that feel safe, like, okay, whatrole do I need to serve in this
family so that my needs are met?
Dan (25:30):
Correct Based on expectations.
Charles (25:32):
Yes, exactly Of the family of you, yeah, and so it's
hard to shake it is.
Dan (25:37):
I think in all, as we get older, don't realize what a
powerful mold that was on all ofus and it's really difficult to
see how it's not beneficial incertain ways it's so it's.
It's absolutely beneficial inother ways.
But being able to see like thefull picture from the outside
and that's why a coach, atherapist, somebody, a good
friend can help, but mostlyprofessional can really kind of
(26:01):
help you see your tendencies.
Yeah, it's like a posturecorrection.
Therapist.
Charles (26:06):
Exactly, yeah, the the roles we create and the
strategies that we build as akid in a family.
Depending on how chaotic andtraumatic your childhood is,
it's either okay, I need these,I need these strategies to
survive, or I need thesestrategies to fit in, or I need
(26:26):
these strategies just to kind ofget along with everybody.
But the thing is, when you're alittle kid and you're forming
those strategies, it feels likesurvival, no matter how serious
it actually is, and it kind ofis because you don't have the
ability to get your own food andmake your own food, go get your
own, like yeah it kind of itreally is your own?
(26:47):
Yeah, but actually for the mostpoint, for the most part, though
, when you're a one and a halfyear old, two year old toddler
is like, if you don't behave injust the right way, your parents
aren't going to decide.
Decide not to feed you, but youdon't understand that.
You don't know that.
Decide not to feed you, but youdon't understand that.
You don't know that.
Correct, yeah, that's thepractical application is yeah,
you, usually you don't have toput on an act as a small child
(27:08):
to get fed and get sheltered andbe taken care of or even get
love, but it feels that way whenyou're that small, because
that's all your brain canunderstand at that point, and so
, yeah, you do come up withthese, these modes of behaving
and these parts that you playbecause of what you perceive to
be the expectations around youand also what you expect the
(27:29):
consequences to be correct andat that age it's like you feel
like it's life or death.
Dan (27:35):
There's we don't.
You can't even think of whatanother consequence would be or
how it would be less serious,yes, yeah.
Charles (27:41):
How else could this go, except the way that I've told
myself it's going to go?
And then those same, those sameskills, those same mechanisms.
You then try to show up withthose in a romantic relationship
as an adult.
Dan (27:57):
Because those are the tools and the way you believe things
need to run.
Yeah, that's, that's what youwere programmed with.
Charles (28:03):
Yeah, and the tools it takes to be a toddler who's just
trying to survive in his familyversus the tools it takes to be
a partner in a successful,long-term romantic relationship.
They're not the same tools.
And so when you, when you showup with those tools and you rely
on those tools and you defaultto those tools, it can cause
(28:25):
some significant difficulties inyour romantic relationships.
Dan (28:34):
And then those romantic relationships fall apart and
you're like okay, what do I donow?
I just kind of had a thought isdo you think it's possible?
The reason why so many usstruggle in relationships as we
get older?
Because of communicationproblems?
Because when we're younger ourparents are constantly
communicating what they want interms of our behavior and what
(28:55):
we're expected to do good or badwhereas in an adult
relationship that communicationis definitely not as present, as
forceful or as direct.
So then a lot of times it'skind of like well, I don't even
have the skill set to hunt andpeck and figure out and decipher
(29:16):
what I need to do to make thisrelationship work or what I need
to do to make this person happyCause you don't even really
have the skills, because it wasbasically kind of hated to you
on a silver platter almost interms of this is what you need
to be doing, whether it's verbalcommunication or nonverbal
communication, because our,because we didn't have a choice
(29:37):
when we were a kid, we didn'thave much of a choice in things.
So I feel like our parentsprobably were were really kind
of saying make it easy for us tofigure out, but as adults we're
not getting that same level ofinput from a partner Usually.
I'm just wondering you thinkthere's any any validity in that
, why it's sometimes difficultto figure out the right thing to
(29:58):
do.
Charles (29:59):
I would I mean in my, in my own experience.
I think there's another dynamicthat's going on, which is even
in relationships with partnerswho are willing and able to
honestly and openly communicatetheir needs to you.
Where do you find one of those?
In a therapist At least, atleast ideally, that's.
(30:24):
That's where they would spendsome of their time.
I think there's a part of usthat, based on our childhood
situations, we just say well,that's great that you're sharing
that with me, but I don'tbelieve you.
I don't believe that's what youactually want from me.
I don't believe that's actuallywhat you need from me.
Well, i've't believe you.
I don't believe that's what youactually want from me.
I don't believe that's actuallywhat you need from me.
Well, I've a hundred percent.
Do you know?
Believe that's actually whatkeeps.
(30:44):
What actually keeps people inmy life is not what you're
telling me.
It's because you're coming from.
Yeah, it is a story I've toldmyself.
Dan (30:52):
You have a story you've told yourself and something
you've repeated, and somethingthat your seeks out validation
for the beliefs that you havehas been working on this to
prove that this is the way theworld works For so many years.
Who are you to say no, itdoesn't work that way, or this
isn't the way you think it is?
Charles (31:13):
Right and imagine how frustrating that is for your
partner to hear when you're likethank you so much for sharing
that with me.
I really appreciate it, but Idon't believe you.
I think you probably believewhat you're telling me you need
from me, but it's not true.
I know what you actually needfrom me and I'm just going to
keep doing what I've been doing,because that's the truth of
what you actually require.
Dan (31:33):
I've been in relationships like that, where I've tried to
bring somebody up or encouragethem or whatever.
Encourage them or whatever, andit's it's it really kind of it
was the end of the beginning ofthe end for me, because it's
kind of like, wow, like as yourpartner, who you are telling me
that I'm in, the most importantperson or one of the most
important person people in yourlife, you're not even
(31:55):
considering that I might have a,there might be a hint of truth
or element of of truth to whatI'm telling you, and because of
that, I'm like, wow, there'sthis.
Now I feel disconnected.
Now I feel almost disrespected,like my beliefs and and all the
things that I have honed for myentire life.
(32:16):
I really I believe this to betrue about you, based on what
I'm saying, and you're nowquestioning my very core, my
beliefs too, right, and so it'slike, if you can't even be open
to the idea that I there mightbe something that I'm telling
you might be different at thatpoint, then it's I'm like, okay,
maybe we're snug with that.
Charles (32:37):
Yeah, I don't need you to believe everything, but just
don't completely dismiss myopinions on things interaction,
(33:04):
the kind of conversations, thekind though I know I'm telling
you exactly how I want you toshow up for me so this
relationship will work, and theother person, probably with
their actions, maybe with theirwords, is saying that's not what
you really need.
And I think that a lot of thered pill manosphere is really
good at saying don't believewomen when they tell you what
they want out of a man or out ofa relationship.
They think they know, but theydon't actually Really say that.
(33:25):
Oh, yeah, yeah, okay.
It's more.
I mean, every pickup artist whohas a book or a method to sell
is going to tell you don'tlisten to the women in your life
when they tell you what theywant.
Listen to me when I tell youwhat they want, yeah, want, yeah
, all right, hey look, andthere's something to be said for
it's very hard for us, ashumans, to really communicate
(33:46):
exactly what motivates us andexactly what we're looking for.
But you got to figure out a wayto trust the people that you
have in your life, especiallypeople who have done any level
of work with therapy or you know, any kind of mental health,
where it's like listen whenpeople do the work to come up
with their boundaries and theirneeds and they're willing to
(34:06):
express that to you, to say okay, yeah, but this guy on the
internet says that's not reallywhat really buys women men Right
and see that's interesting,because then you're still being
open to the idea that you don'thave it all figured out.
Dan (34:22):
But the people that you're still being open to the idea
that you don't have it allfigured out, but the people that
you're choosing to thenconsider, are ones that are have
a vested business interest inmaking money off of you, versus
somebody who has a life interest, a love interest in you.
And so if, oh my god, that's,that's really not a good idea,
right?
So I was going to say is like,if you're coming from the
perspective of I have it most ofeverything figured out, kind of
(34:43):
like saxon does, when when apiper questions him on you don't
know everything he's like aboutthe whole dream situation,
somebody like that then you'renot really open to anybody.
Okay, I understand that.
But then if you are then puttingyour your faith and that's why
I think a lot of times peopleget nuts when you try to give
(35:03):
advice to family members.
You love them, you care aboutthem, but until they hear it
from some outside force that'ssomebody here all the time and
I'm guilty of that too givingadvice and family not taking it
but then they'll hear fromsomebody else.
It's like this exact same thingthat I just said, and then, all
of a sudden, they take actionon it or they consider it.
I mean, I'm guilty of that too,for sure, but I yeah, I
(35:26):
consider that being frustrating.
Charles (35:28):
Yeah, yeah.
And I would say, if you do it,if you find yourself in a
relationship with a partnerwho's willing to share what they
need with you, and then you'renot willing to believe it and
act on it, it's like, okay, Imean, you're free to do that,
but you're you're on a countdownto the to the end of that
relationship and a lot of timeswhen you say what they need from
(35:49):
you.
Dan (35:49):
A lot of times too, is it's a self-esteem type of thing.
It's just like you're reallyshitting on yourself, like you
are not this broken orunattractive or whatever else
that is and I've been withpeople who think they are, and
so it's just like part of it islike I feel offended, like that
(36:10):
You're not even considering thatI I might have some truth in
what I'm saying or that there'sanother option.
But also now is like, if you'vegot this really low opinion of
yourself, you think what do youthink of me?
That you think what do youthink of me?
That I am attracted to you ondating or whatever.
That is Right, right and I waslike it.
(36:31):
So now I just mind.
See what.
What is going through my mind,okay, what's going through her
mind when it comes to heropinion of me?
Charles (36:42):
yeah, it yeah is.
Is she?
Is she a charity case for youor are you also a piece of shit?
I mean, what's the yeah?
Is she doing a?
She do me a favor?
Thank my god, she yeah.
Yeah, that's it okay.
So let's speaking of well, it'sfor the other side of that.
Let's talk about guy, talk alittle his little crush that he
(37:04):
has on his girl well, not reallyhis girl, right, his friend.
Yeah, I guess one of one of thethings I thought about him
having a crush on her and theway that my friends who are
women talk about crushes.
In my experience, theenthusiasm that they share in
(37:27):
conversations about crushes arealways about them having a crush
on someone else and never aboutsomeone else having a crush on
them.
No, I never hear girls who areexcited to share oh, this guy I
work with has a crush on me andit's so much fun.
Dan (37:44):
Oh, that's never end use.
It's so much fun, it's soannoying.
Charles (37:47):
Correct, yeah, yeah, where a conversation like oh,
there's this guy I work with.
He just started a couple ofweeks ago and he's so cute, I
have such a crush on him Likethey're excited about that, like
it's fun for them to have thecrush.
But I can't think of times whenthey talk about being fun for,
okay, somebody else to have acrush on.
Dan (38:05):
Now I've got a question for the people that have been
expressing this to you, whereyou know they've complained that
they don't have that somebody'sgot a crush on them.
When they explain to you thesituation, do you feel they've
done an adequate job in terms ofcommunicating their disinterest
to them, or Well, I would not,let me.
Charles (38:25):
Let me be honest.
I don't even know that they'veused the language of this guy's
got a crush on me becausethere's almost something
positive and fun about oh, it'sa crush that me because there's
almost something positive andfun about oh, it's a crush.
That is.
That's usually not the way Ihear it.
It's usually more like this guyat the office.
He's just like I can tell helikes me and he's constantly
(38:47):
around and he won't leave mealone.
It's okay.
So it's like they're.
Yeah, the positivity is overcrushed us.
Dan (38:52):
You can make it as it would be so then it sounds like
they're not managing thesituation.
Let's say, to manage him out ofthe office and manage him to
spend less time there at thatpoint.
Charles (39:06):
I mean that puts a burden on them that I don't.
I'm not sure it's not.
It's not your job to manage theguy who doesn't know how to
directly and honestly state hisinterest in a way that makes you
feel flattered and safe.
Good point.
Good point, yes.
Dan (39:23):
Okay.
So yeah, it's.
It's not gotten to the stage ofwhere it is out on the table
yet, so to speak.
Right, correct, okay, all right.
Charles (39:30):
So, yeah, all right, I think and I think the language
that women choose to discussthat can you can sort of get a
feel for how competent the guyis at behaving in a way that's
attractive and flirty andhinting at his interest and
without it, yeah, it's like,once again, as we've said in
(39:54):
previous episodes, being honestabout your desire, your
intention, in a way that isemotionally intelligent and and
sophisticated, given your theenvironment that you met the
person in it's like that'sthat's not creepy.
Person in it's like that'sthat's not creepy.
(40:16):
So what's creepy is when youdon't really understand the way
to communicate interest, giveneither the work relationship or
the way that you met the person,like, given your environment.
You need to figure out how do Iexpress interest to this person
in a way that will let themfeel free to say either yes or
no and know that it's not goingto be a big deal, okay, so up
until this point in this season.
Dan (40:39):
Do you think italk?
Charles (40:40):
has been creepy or not.
I think he's been on the edgeof creepy.
I think he is.
No, I I think he's he's passive.
Certainly we can agree thathe's very passive.
He's willing to drop some hintsand even make some arguments
for why he would be a goodpartner.
But he has gotten indicators ofdisinterest that he's just kind
(41:07):
of, in a polite way,steamrolling past those
indicators of disinterest.
Yeah, you know, yeah, where,when you get an indication, way
steamrolling past thoseindicators of disinterest, yeah,
you know, yeah, where, when,when you get an indication that
a girl's not you're interestedin a girl romantically and she's
indicated that she's notinterested in you romantically
certainly not at the same level.
He should have been taking somesteps to step, to step back,
(41:31):
some steps to step back where,yeah, he should have withdrawn
some of her, some of hisattention and interaction,
because he's he's essentiallygoing to, he's returning to a
dry well where the healthy thingfor him to do is not keep going
back to the dry well.
Dan (41:50):
It's, it's fine, find other wells, they may not be dry if,
if you remember the line, likethe line that Srutala's
bodyguards gave him when theywere talking, they ran into him
in one of the scenes of thisepisode.
Charles (42:03):
Oh yeah, after he invites himself to be one of her
bodyguards.
Dan (42:06):
Yes, and you go oh, turkey trying to become a rooster, huh,
a little turkey trying tobecome a rooster, yeah.
And they're like yeah, youcan't even get, you can't even
do what they pay you, the onething they pay you, you know
what I'm saying?
Charles (42:20):
Yeah, and listen, those , those guys were.
I mean, I didn't find them tobe professional or curious with
the way they were interactingwith him, but we can make
certain things, certainassumptions about what it takes
to be a adequate bodyguard inThailand.
Dan (42:38):
I mean, think about a bodyguard that needs.
You're basically throwingyourself your life in front of
the person you're protecting.
Charles (42:46):
Yeah, or as part of the protection of that person,
you're willing to get a littlerough with other people that
might be a threat.
Yeah, get a little rough withother people that might be a
threat, yeah, when I mean youdon't even know for sure if
they're going to be a threat,but you're willing to put
yourself in front of them andact and speak and possibly
physically act in a way toprotect.
Yeah, you've got to be again, I.
I think a bodyguard in americamight be a little bit different,
(43:09):
but it's still like you.
You've got to be willing to putyourself in between and act out
physically if you need to.
Yeah, and it would seem thatguy talk has not demonstrated to
anybody that he is willing orable to do this.
Yeah, so volunteering for abodyguard position, it's I mean
just just from a professionalresume point of view, he's he's
(43:32):
kind of writing checks here thathe doesn't know he can actually
cash.
Dan (43:36):
I think it's a great way of rounding out his character a
little bit more with that typeof storyline.
Charles (43:42):
I've got ambition, but I'm also a little naive as far
as what it would take to be inthis role that I am inviting
myself or volunteering for.
Dan (43:54):
Right before he asks her, they show him praying to one of
the gods.
He put some bananas down foryou and so he was praying.
And then he tells Mook later onI was really impressed that I
risked myself for her and Iasked if I could be her
bodyguard, and I just want tolet you know that I put that out
in the doors.
Charles (44:23):
She's like, oh, that's nice, yeah, yeah, it's yeah, the
the whole thing that happenedwith him during the robbery
getting bogged on the head, thatand, in the way, not not the
fact that it happened but theway he tried to a little bit use
that and and sort of capitalizeon it with his relationship
with her.
Yeah, it's like you're settingyourself up for someone to be
pitied and have sympathy where,if anything, I think the most
(44:45):
attractive way he could havehandled it like yeah, it
happened, it wasn't a big dealand maybe even a little bit of.
I wish I I could have done more.
If I had to do over again, Iwould have yeah, but not not
this.
Oh, you're so brave.
Oh, thank you.
Dan (44:58):
It's like it took the opportunity.
Yeah, Seek presented it, but hedidn't like dissuade it.
And, like you said, come fullcircle and just go look.
Charles (45:08):
this is not what I'm about yeah, he should have been
a little dismissive of the wholething, like, yeah, I could have
handled better, because thatwould have reflected the reality
of the situation, he could havehandled it better.
I would assume that we knowthat he's been in that role for
a couple of years.
He's probably received sometraining where, so he probably
(45:30):
should have been Even just alittle bit better.
Yes, so he's definitely that'sknow.
It was just a little bit better.
Dan (45:35):
Yes, there, there, yeah.
So he's definitely that's, Ithink, also questioning a little
bit.
Charles (45:39):
Starts to question his role a little bit there, as
right, and then he probably feltthat he'd overcompensate for it
, right.
So, yeah, that's that's wherewe are with him.
And then we have a little biton put together about greg aka
gary and and just sort of it'slike, yeah, we know, we don't
(46:00):
know from previous seasons ofwhite lotus exactly how bad of a
guy this is.
We don't know how involved hewas in his ex-whites death, if
he was at all, because a lot ofwhat we saw in season two they
kind of implied that there wassomething going on with the way
that she, she, she found herselfin a situation that felt
dangerous and she reacted to itin a way that may have been
(46:23):
appropriate or may not have,because they never explicitly
tell told us, the viewer, whatkind of situation she was in in
season two.
Right, but she certainly passedaway under violent
circumstances.
Dan (46:36):
Well, what was interesting is adds to a little bit of the
story is, if you remember chloetalking to chelsea about greg
and his, his past.
She's like, oh, he had anex-wife who's apparently looked
like really crazy, how crazy.
Well, apparently she was socrazy she walked into the water
and drowned herself, somethinglike that.
That was objectively not true,right, and you never talked
(46:57):
about, you never talked aboutthe what would actually happen.
And so then you're like, okay,most likely he did do something
based on that.
Charles (47:08):
Or maybe, maybe, or maybe he's just trying to escape
the stigma of what happened tothis and maybe that's what the
police currently and as well.
Dan (47:13):
He's just trying to escape the stigma of what happened to
this, eric, and maybe that'swhat the police currently give
her and as well Correct, and sohe's got to go.
Charles (47:20):
Yeah, we don't know exactly what happened in that
scenario and we can see reasonsfor him making up a fake name
and a fake identity to escapeeither the suspicion or the
stigma.
Personally, I think they'remaking it clear that he probably
is a pretty bad guy.
Who did you know who may haveorchestrated her murder?
(47:42):
That never happened.
She died as a result of anaccident Because she was in a
situation where she thought shewas going to get murdered?
Dan (47:49):
Great, because he don't fully know.
Now he's got a differentidentity and he goes, tells Rick
, I did all this and that,because he doesn't want people
to put it together that he'sgreg from land man and, yeah,
he's basically a bureaucrat,right so, but at the same time
he's like anybody digging intohis hat, right, it doesn't mean
he definitely murdered her, butit's looking that way, but you
(48:10):
don't know for sure.
It's that clear cut.
And so, yeah, I think whitedoes a great job of having these
tiny little openings still thataren't like closed off, and I
think that's why we keep comingback to watch more yeah and yeah
.
Charles (48:25):
I think it's great and it's it's great to see how all
this, through the prism of theseguys acting the way they think
they have to act because ofexpectations, and because of
expectations and because ofpressure and because of
circumstances they've putthemselves in, it's like what's
the right thing to do, what'sthe effective thing to do,
what's the thing that I do tofulfill this role that I've
(48:46):
crafted for myself, and it and Ithink they do such a good job
of leaving these little openloops throughout all of the
seasons that they could easilyhave a side projects where they
show you the background of someof the characters, how they got
to that point.
Dan (49:03):
I would watch a lot of them .
Charles (49:05):
Yeah, it's just a matter of is Mike White going to
do the cash grab to tell thosestories to he?
May, he may not.
Dan (49:14):
Maybe after White, Lotus is all done for the Ruin series.
Yeah, have the spinoffs easily.
Charles (49:21):
I kind of hope he doesn't do that, though I hope
he does, I want more.
Dan (49:25):
I want more.
Charles (49:26):
Yeah.
Dan (49:27):
I don't care if it's good for him, he deserves it.
It's his brilliant stuff.
Charles (49:32):
He only deserves it because he's putting brilliant
stuff out there and he's notdoing it for the art, not the
money.
I can think of so many seriesthat have had their either
reimagining or they did extraseasons, and it's always not as
good as the first run.
Understood, Understood.
Maybe you're different, Maybeyou'll beat Smeagol, Maybe
(49:53):
you'll beat that.
I'll beat some of the guys.
Yeah, I think of some of theseries that I really enjoyed so
much and it's like God, if losscame back.
For where are they?
20 years old is like no, thankyou, I don't want to see that.
And yeah, I mean I.
What are star Wars coming back?
Or extra Lord of the Ringsmovies?
(50:13):
It's like it never feels asgood as the original.
Dan (50:16):
Sure, but there's enough people out there that you do
want to see.
Charles (50:21):
The masses are masses.
John Adams or AlexanderHamilton?
One of the two, I don't know ifthey actually ever said it, but
they got credit for saying that, so it's like yeah you need.
I want the artists in thedriver's seat of what art they
make, not the casual fans, yeah,and so you put the casual fans
(50:41):
in charge and then, yeah, youget things like the latest Star
Wars trilogy.
Yeah, really that's yeah, thefans and the executives coming
together to define what artshould be made.
How else could this go?
Anyway, all right, dad, we'llcome back next week with episode
(51:02):
four, awesome.
Okay, that's it for today'sconversation.
If you want full audio andvideo episodes or anything else
we feel like sharing head overto mindfully masculinecom Next
up, things get even more layeredas dynamics start to shift.
Power gets challenged and someof these guys find themselves in
deeper water than they expected.
Episode 4 is going to have alot to unpack and we're ready
(51:23):
for it.
We'll catch you then.
Right and imagine how frustrating that is for your
partner to hear when you're likethank you so much for sharing
that with me.
I really appreciate it, but Idon't believe you.
I think you probably believewhat you're telling me you need
from me, but it's not true.
I know what you actually needfrom me and I dig into how
masculinity shows up flawed,evolving and often off-balance
in the men of the White Lotus.
(00:33):
Today we're unpacking Season 3,episode 3.
This episode gives us men whoare slipping out of sync with
the roles they're trying to play.
Rick's going through themotions, detached, restless and
in no shape to show up for thewoman who cares about him.
Timothy is clinging to control,trying to manage his family's
perception while the groundshifts beneath him and Guy Talk.
(00:54):
He's holding on to a quiet hopefor something more, unsure
whether his patience isthoughtful or just delaying a
truth he doesn't want to face.
There's no full-blown collapseyet, but the masks are starting
to shift and what's underneaththem is what we're here to talk
about.
Let's get into it.
Check out our website,mindfullymasculinecom, for full
(01:17):
audio video episodes andanything else we feel like
sharing.
Dan (01:20):
Thanks, Good morning.
How are you doing?
Charles (01:23):
I'm well, dan.
Thank you, how are you?
Dan (01:24):
I am also doing great.
Charles (01:26):
Okay, we're going to continue our podcast on
discussing masculinity in WhiteLotus season or, yeah, season
three and we're going to hitepisode three, which again that
means there will be spoilers forepisodes one, two and three in
season three.
So if you've not yet watchedthose episodes, you may want to
(01:47):
stop watch them and then comeback to the podcast.
This episode was really justkind of building up to more
stuff that's going to happenlater, and we saw that with Rick
and his situation, the Ratlifffamily and a little bit more
(02:08):
with Guy Top.
So let's talk about Rick first.
This is a crazy episode for Rick.
He's getting more into the.
We're learning more about hismental state and how he feels
about his past and what effectit's having on him.
It's continuing to be rude tohis girlfriend and she's hanging
(02:32):
in there.
She is hanging in there, she.
She really cares about the guy,I wonder.
It's.
It's strange.
It's strange to think about howthey initially got together,
cause it's it's hard to imaginea version of him that is not
preoccupied with this trauma.
Like what?
What was he like when theyinitially got together?
That would have attracted her?
Dan (02:51):
Yeah, and that was made evident when they were out going
for the snake show.
And she's just like, rightbefore that, she's like are we
ever going to have fun again?
Right, I'm like this guy'scapable of having fun, exactly
like I did not get that from himever, like being able to relax.
But maybe if he smokes enoughweed because that's what he's,
that's what he's really cravingand binging, right.
Charles (03:11):
so maybe if he does, he can, he can relax a little bit
yeah, or maybe in the beginningof the relationship she was his
drug, she was his weed, could itknow?
As they met, they wereinitially attracted to each
other.
Littlerens kicked in.
Maybe she served a role ofbeing his drug for a little bit
of time before he got used toher presence and then just
(03:34):
started to devalue her seeminglyall the time.
Where, yeah, he just does not.
Dan (03:40):
And as much as she was getting closer to him, he kept
pushing her away.
There was conversation about ohscore, because he was talking
about how he had to go toBangkok, right, and she's like,
why are you going to Bangkok?
He's like, don't worry about it.
And she's like Scorpio, somysterious.
She's like I'm an Aries, I needeverything to be out in the
open.
And I'd never heard that aboutlike Aries before, but the few
(04:07):
Aries that I know, that's thatdoes hold true.
Like they, they want to knoweverything.
They want to know everythingthat's out there.
But then he throws it in herface.
He throws it in her face lateron, when is just like like
completely like you got me, butat the same time, like I don't
(04:28):
know what to do with this.
Like yeah, you should do that.
Charles (04:30):
You could do that.
But you're right kind of thing.
Yeah, I think I could see.
My ex-wife was an Aries, oh,really, okay, yeah, so and my
friend Lindsay, who I used towork with she's, she's an Aries
and I could see some of it.
I don't I don't subscribe toastrology except when it says
(04:52):
something complimentary about meand then I believe it's a
hundred percent true.
Exactly, I think everybody's.
So Rick is not nice to hisgirlfriend, nice to his
girlfriend and these, thesemeditation sessions he's going
to are they're doing a good jobof stirring up things that he
(05:12):
probably needs to deal with.
Yeah, definitely needs to dealwith.
But then it seems like he'sresponding to those feelings
coming up.
So he he gets high and getsemotional about the snakes being
in captivity and decides heneeds to let them out.
He lets them out and hisgirlfriend gets bit by a cobra
so she has to go to the hospitalto get anti anti-venom so she
(05:36):
doesn't die.
And geez, it's like I wouldhope that in that scenario I
would respond to that by saying,okay, I just did something
crazy.
Someone close to me got hurtreally bad, she could have died.
Now I should probably get mycrap together.
Dan (05:53):
He's just like I was stoned .
Yeah, he, just I have a sexualaddiction when she's like Rick,
yeah, like why would you do this?
Charles (05:59):
How did this happen?
He's like I was stoned.
Dan (06:05):
Literally, he was identifying with the snakes,
like the snakes were trapped,and he feels like he's, he's a
he's a trapped evil type ofthing, right, and he wanted to
be.
He wants to be set free too,and that's that's kind of
foreshadowing what he's doing.
Charles (06:18):
Yeah, and if it does, he does reference kind of
something.
I don't remember how they saidexactly, but it's clear that he
feels like some act of revengeor vengeance or getting even or
something will settle the scoreand then he'll be able to move
on.
And when I was watching theepisode, re-watching the episode
this morning, I I wanted to askyou about that.
(06:39):
It's so.
The vengeance narrative is socommon in literature and in
stories Even go into somebodylike Batman or superheroes or
Hamlet or whatever the Lion King.
There's this thing of I need toget even with the person who
(07:01):
hurt my family and then, once Iget even, I'll be able to.
I've never heard a real lifeexample of that, though, like we
can't stop talking about it infiction, but I don't know
anybody who said, yeah, Isuffered this loss or whatever.
And then, as I got older, I wasable to finally get even with
the person who did it to me andnow everything's great.
I've never heard that happenonce and, to be fair, even in
(07:24):
literature it doesn't often workout great.
Sometimes it does, but for themost part it's like no, the
person seeking the vengeance,seeking to even the scales, ends
up destroying themselves.
Yeah, but in like the Lion King, for example, simba gets rid of
Scar and spoiler alert if youhaven't seen the lion King that
(07:45):
came out 30 years ago.
But he does get even with.
But his, his motivation is notI have to get even, it's more of
I have to.
I have to restore balance to mykingdom.
Dan (07:57):
Yeah, I think the reason why it's so popular is because
it's an emotion we all identifywith and we all have, and that's
ad at a time, yeah, and I guessdepending on our upbringing and
the lessons we've learnedthroughout life will determine
whether we go through with it ornot.
So I'm sure there's people whodo go through with it and
doesn't probably most likelydoesn't work out right, but I
(08:18):
think most of us and most peoplethat we surround ourselves with
don't actually go that far, sowe don't actually see it
actually happening in real lifebecause, thankfully, the people
that we've surrounded ourselveswith stop ourselves before we
take it that far.
Charles (08:35):
Maybe this is a name that those people have done this
.
Dan (08:38):
Maybe because this is a theme throughout history.
This is just one of the thingslike, as a human society, we're
trying to teach people how toexist in society.
The story goes along.
One of those lines of this is alesson Do not do this Right,
don't let it go this far,because these are the
consequences and scaring peopleinto seeing what those
(09:00):
consequences are if we keepgoing with those feelings and
that emotion.
But it's so popular because Ithink we all identify with it.
Yeah, at least at some pointalong the whole actual journey.
Charles (09:10):
I mean, I've felt that.
I've certainly felt that way ofoh, I wish I could get back for
blah, blah, blah, but I'myounger.
Have you ever gotten to thepoint where it's actually done
it?
Dan (09:18):
So here's perfect examples.
Oh, have you ever played avideo game where it's like a
multiplayer game and like you'recompeting against somebody else
?
So for me, perfect example isMario Kart, and someone threw a
banana at me and I spin out orwhatever.
I'm like, ok, all right.
And now it's game on.
And then it's a minor littlething, I want some vengeance,
I'm going to blow by everybodyelse so that I can.
Then I feel like I was wrong,whether it was intentional or
(09:41):
not.
Sometimes you're like, oh allright, I need to get even kind
of thing Right.
It's fun for a video game, butreal life.
Yeah, but imagine that being thenarrative that you base your
whole life on, which is what Iget the impression is Rick's
situation.
What's interesting to me,though, is in this episode, Rick
is about to go to Bangkok andshe's like well, what am I going
(10:02):
to do?
We're going to go on the boat.
And she's like, well, what am Igoing to do?
We're going to go on the boat.
And she's like what am I goingto do on myself?
He goes oh well, mooch off ofsomebody who's richer than I am,
yeah, so I thought and I sawthat I mean I've watched this
episode three times or fourtimes, yeah, and it's the first
time I picked that up and I'mlike, wait a minute at for quite
a bit of time.
There's a lot of money aroundthere.
(10:24):
Rick's doing probably okay forhimself financially, and that
just goes to show that moneydoesn't buy happiness, obviously
.
And it just didn't even occurto me that, yeah, rick probably
has not, probably doesn't have ashittiest life when it comes to
needing for things.
Charles (10:42):
Yeah, but I also get the impression that he's
probably a criminal.
Dan (10:46):
He's probably made his money for sure, yeah, a good
point.
Charles (10:49):
This, so yeah, this and that yeah, between this and
that and him saying during hissecond medication session in
this episode, why not, I tookbad things okay, because things
they're all side, they get theoppression, and then it also
brings in something the Ratliffswere having that discussion
about.
Rich people aren't better Likethere's plenty of trashy rich
(11:13):
people, and I think I mean theycould have even been thinking
back to the experience on theboat with Rick Right Good point,
again, nobody's.
They shoot these episodes atfour season property, four
seasons properties, and so evenfor a place to just look like or
be a stand-in for a force, thewhite lotus is got to be on that
(11:34):
same level as a four seasonsresort.
Yeah, and I can't imagine.
I mean, these people arespending thousands and thousands
of dollars per night to stay inthese.
Yeah, so rick's, rick's.
So yeah, all these people havemoney and so, yeah, it's, except
for the staff, but yeah, he's,he's probably gotten his money
(11:54):
in some not great ways and yeah,yeah, I wonder it.
It'd be great to see more likeofficial not fan fiction
backgrounds of these people.
But part of the fun, like thefun with Lost, was like getting
to know these people a littlebit at a time and see more about
(12:17):
their now lost.
It was literally flashbacks,but with this it's more like
revealing conversations andstuff like that.
But yeah, he's, he's a complexcharacter and it's.
It's interesting how he he isseeking peace and redemption at
some level, but like there'sthere's no reason to believe
(12:38):
he's going to go about doing itin a healthy way that will
actually work for him.
Dan (12:42):
No, no way that will actually work for him.
No, no.
The fact is that he is at leastgoing to meditation sessions
yeah, that's interesting.
Charles (12:51):
Why isn't he just pulling him off?
I'm kind of wondered about that.
Like there's got to be a partof him that that thinks that
there may be some value I mean,I think it's brilliant writing
by our the white writer too.
Dan (13:02):
No, no, I don't remember.
He writes all the episodes.
There are no barbos, whoevercreated.
If he writes all the episodes,or no barless, whoever created,
that is it helps us wonder.
Okay, wait a minute, there'sstill a little hope here, like
he's at least going to thesession.
Charles (13:13):
Yeah, he's being rude, he's being dismissive, but he is
walking through the door, so soit's like okay, it's kind of
keeping an open loop exactly allright.
So let's go on to the Ratlifffamily and what they're up to.
Dan (13:27):
The opening scene was amazing of this episode, I saw
it.
They said they used their housein the, in the, and then like
it helps her and she makes upand it's like like blown away
and isn't sure why I think yeah,and then and then, and then you
know, piper is like hey, yeah,they have the discussion of okay
(13:48):
, do dreams predict the futureor is what's going on?
Charles (13:52):
more likely, a combination of?
She's watching the tsunamivideos I guess the sun is
watching them and so she'sseeing them or they're talking
about them, but also she'sprobably picking up, even if a
subconscious, level of somediscomfort, instability, anxiety
in the patriarch that is, theprovider for the family.
(14:15):
So you put those two together,the tsunami videos with, like,
okay, this guy is starting tounravel a little bit and I'm
picking up the vibe.
Dan (14:26):
And, yeah, that does translate to what you're going
to see in your dreams what'sinteresting is the discussion
that hyper and saxon have atbreakfast, when she's like oh,
this could be a premonition ofthings to come, and saxon says
something was it like fire andsnakes, or or rats and snakes?
I think it's fire and snakes,yeah, but it's interesting.
You said snakes.
When I dream of rats and snakes, I think it's fire and snakes,
yeah, but it's interesting.
(14:46):
You said snakes.
When I dream of rats and snakes, or fire and snakes, it's not
like it doesn't mean anythingother than I'm afraid of fire
and snakes, right.
And then later in the episode,that's when Rick goes and has
the whole snake encounter, yeah,so they do a really nice job of
making a.
Uh, it's, it's almost preprogramming you to already not
like snakes by the time Rickgets there.
Charles (15:08):
Although it's a fear of them, although, yeah, but Rick
has no fear of the snakes, youknow.
He identifies with it insteadof being afraid of it.
But as a viewer.
Dan (15:16):
He did a great job of basically setting the mindset of
snakes are the fear Correct.
Charles (15:22):
Yeah.
Dan (15:22):
Yeah, just just reminding us.
Oh yeah, by the way, snakes arescary, correct.
Charles (15:25):
Yeah, yeah, just just reminding us.
Oh yeah, by the way, snakes arescary.
Yeah, yeah, that was, that wasgood.
And so Timothy is.
Yeah, he's.
He's continuing to get callsfrom outside that are telling
them, informing them on thisdeveloping situation, and yeah,
he's.
Dan (15:44):
Yeah, he's visibly disturbed.
I mean he's, yeah, he's visiblydisturbed.
I mean it's right, sure, so hisfamily starts asking questions.
Ugh, so, which which is makingit putting the pressure on him
even more, because it's like he,I think he's like right at the
breaking point of going, ofbeing concerned that his
family's going to find somethingout.
Charles (15:58):
Yeah, which it it did.
It prompted the question in mewhat is the what's the optimal
or the healthy way to addressthe situation that he's going
through?
So if he was, I mean you couldargue, okay, well, if he was
healthy he wouldn't have lookedfor the shortcut and got himself
into this trouble.
That was another thing I pickedup listening to this episode, I
(16:19):
think when he's on the phonewith he's on the, it wasn't the
one where he's listening to thelawyer.
It was like he was like out of.
He was like out of earshot fromthe rest of the family, I think
, and he was listening to amessage or something.
There was a reference like heformed this fund, like 15 years
ago with Kenny.
So this is like way in the rearview.
(16:40):
This is something he did notexpect to.
Dan (16:42):
Oh, I missed that.
Charles (16:43):
Yeah, I remember hearing like 15 years ago, so
this, this is definitelysomething he thought was buried
in in long in the past.
And then it turns out, not somuch and yeah, I thought that
was interesting, but the yeah,the way he, his son, starts
getting calls from somebody inthe office because they work
(17:06):
together God it was.
It was the way he used hisson's respect and admiration to
manipulate him into giving upthe phone.
It's like Saxon is not the mostsympathetic character, but I
felt I felt bad for the way hisdad was putting putting a number
on him to manipulate him andwork him into giving up his
(17:28):
phone.
That was shitty, I didn't likethat.
But at the same time, you canidentify with the dad in terms
of wanting to protect his sonfrom the mayhem that potentially
and that's why I started to sayI was going to ask you, if
Timothy was a healthy guy, howwould he have dealt with this?
(17:50):
Would he just come out to hisfamily and say, look, there's
something I did in my pastthat's coming out?
There's going to be somebusiness implications.
I've got to go, hop on a planeand get back to town so I can
deal with this.
Or does he cancel the trip foreverybody, or does he try to
compartmentalize it and reallystop freaking out about it and
really give up the phones andjust say, okay, there's nothing,
(18:11):
there's nothing I can do aboutthis in the next four days, or
whatever it is, so I'm gonnawait till we go home and then
I'm gonna deal with it.
I think you got an obligationto tell your family immediately
what's going on and then eitherdecide hey, we have to either
end this vacation or I got tohop on a plane and get out of
here.
Dan (18:27):
Yeah, I think, once you hear the FBI is looking for you,
at that point I think you needto say something.
I think, up until that point Ithink I probably would say all
right, let's see.
I don't know exactly howserious this thing is, right,
right, until you actually go allright, let's see, I don't know
exactly how serious this thingis, right, right until you
actually go all right, look, yes, no, there's nothing that I
(18:47):
feel in my power that I can doat this point to change the
potential really negativeoutcome right at that point,
then yeah, you need this.
Charles (18:53):
When it's just a media scandal where you're like, okay,
my reputation could end uptaking a hit.
They're going to do newsstories about me, that's one.
But it's when it's when the FBIis at your door looking for you
, at the very least.
But you know, when you get onthe phone with your lawyer and
say, okay, do I need to do?
I need to rush back fromThailand so we can deal with
(19:13):
this, or or what, but yeah, Ifeel like once law enforcement's
involved, you got to kind ofgive your family a heads up of
what's going on.
Dan (19:20):
And I think in this episode he feels out and kind of brings
up a little bit.
It starts to, I think, withsomebody about, oh, with his son
we're saying, well, money isnot everything.
It started that when he wasactually trying to manipulate
him into giving up his phone hedid basically say look, money is
not everything.
If we become more, then we canoffer more.
(19:44):
If we open ourselves up to doingmore, we can offer more.
And yes, it's a manipulationtactic, but it's also something
that he was kind of started toput his feelers out in his
family, like, hey, how importantis this life and this money to
you?
And he prided himself from Idon't remember if he gets into
(20:06):
his family, talking about likethe pressure he had about
growing up where I don't know ifthat was this episode.
Charles (20:09):
No, I think that's in the future, but but yeah it's.
I think it's okay to say we dolearn that timothy is not some
self-made man who pulled himselfup from nothing, who was born
poor and it created all this onhis own.
No, but this had a lot of hisvision.
Dan (20:23):
This is a family where both pressure and privilege are kind
of going down through thegeneration right and and he
built a family around privilege,and so, then, that they're, and
I know his impression of themin terms of the way they love
him and the reason why they lovehim is because of this life
that he's been able to providefor them.
Charles (20:42):
Yeah, maybe, yeah, I mean I think that's, but part of
that's on him.
It's like when I build youridentity only as the provider
and not the emotional foundationof your family, then All of us
are just treated for blame forit.
Exactly exactly if you've beenteaching people for decades,
(21:07):
love me because I'm the provider, and then you you're not the
provider anymore, then youshould be scared of them saying,
okay, now, what do I love youfor?
Now?
And it does.
I get the vibe that he set his,his life up that way as love me
because I'm the provider andyou know, and so he's, he's
holding on to that.
Exactly, if that's all youteach, if that's all you've
(21:27):
offered, then it's kind of yourfault.
When, when you're not, that youdon't have that identity
anymore and that's what he feelsis unraveling, his identity as
a provider is going to unravel,then why are these people going
to love me?
It's like, yeah, good question.
Dan (21:41):
Yeah, yeah.
And I think that comes back tothe question that you said is,
if he was healthy, he wouldn'thave gotten that far right.
He wouldn't have, like, stilltried to hide everything from
his family.
But yeah, unfortunately, onceit got out of hand, then he's
all like oh yeah, let's throwour phones in the sack and not
have any.
And I thought that was reallyinteresting.
He's like yeah, I'm going tokeep your watch two sacks and I
(22:03):
forgot.
Yeah, it's a lunar bar starwatch.
Yeah, it's not a watch too.
He's like oh for doing this,we're doing this all the way.
Charles (22:08):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it was yeah, just all in an
effort to protect himself andinsulate really himself.
I was going to and his identity, but not his family.
This is not about him, he'sstrictly his family.
He's protecting himself.
Dan (22:23):
Yeah.
Charles (22:24):
Because, yeah, protect your family.
It's like, okay, I know bigchanges are coming and I'm going
to tell you about it as soon aspossible and, yeah, I think the
right thing to do is end thevacation.
It's like we got to go home.
Sorry, but we got to go home.
Okay, let's see the son, thesons, saxon and Lachlan.
(22:44):
So we talked mostly about Saxon.
He's continuing to be kind ofdouchey with attractive women
that he finds and not being verygood at I mean, I find, any
attention that he's getting fromany of these women.
It's really it's based on hisbravado and based on his looks.
It's not based on himcommunicating anything right
(23:08):
about who he is as a person.
Dan (23:09):
Well, if you remember, he sits down next to cloke, yeah,
at the pool and introduceshimself, her, and she seems very
interested in saying, oh hi,I'm chloe, and and she's a
little flirty with him.
And then the next line is, Ihear you're a douche, yeah, and
then he kind of like laughs itoff a little bit, so it just.
But it goes to show, okay,she's interested, but at the
(23:30):
same time she's testing him alittle bit and seeing how he
handles that, yeah.
And then, if you remember, atdinner she's having her husband
and she sees Saxon across theway to the table.
He gives him an eye and hewaves and that she turns back
and she saw, her husband sawthat thing.
And then she immediately startsgetting nervous, like eating
(23:51):
the food, like really quickly,and stuff.
So she's like so she got caught, something's up.
And yeah, I just I thought thatwas another nice little
premonition in terms of what'swhat, what's what's.
Charles (24:03):
What's it ruin?
Yeah they, they definitely,yeah, they, he.
He develops these characters sowell and I would say it is
worth watching this entireseason a second time at least,
because, yeah, you will pick upon a lot of the foreshadowing
and the hints of what's comingby going back and watching.
Dan (24:24):
And that's part of the fun of it too is if you know what's
going to happen at the end.
You come back and you're justlike, oh my gosh, I see how this
.
And then you really canappreciate the nuance of some of
the scenes and some of theinteractions that just kind of
go completely over your headbecause you don't know it's
important.
Charles (24:42):
Correct, yeah, lachlan's development in this
episode.
He has his posture correctionthing and there's some
interesting stuff that comes outduring the language yes, body
language how he was kind of in aconstant state of submission to
the family members around himthe first thing the instructor
(25:03):
asks him is are you a pleaser,are you a people pleaser?
Dan (25:06):
and he's like well, there's a lot of strong personalities
in my family.
Yeah, that was his answer yeah,and listen.
Charles (25:14):
every, every child has to find their role in their
family, and whether that's asibling, or as a son or a
daughter or whatever, and weplug ourselves into the roles
that feel safe, like, okay, whatrole do I need to serve in this
family so that my needs are met?
Dan (25:30):
Correct Based on expectations.
Charles (25:32):
Yes, exactly Of the family of you, yeah, and so it's
hard to shake it is.
Dan (25:37):
I think in all, as we get older, don't realize what a
powerful mold that was on all ofus and it's really difficult to
see how it's not beneficial incertain ways it's so it's.
It's absolutely beneficial inother ways.
But being able to see like thefull picture from the outside
and that's why a coach, atherapist, somebody, a good
friend can help, but mostlyprofessional can really kind of
(26:01):
help you see your tendencies.
Yeah, it's like a posturecorrection.
Therapist.
Charles (26:06):
Exactly, yeah, the the roles we create and the
strategies that we build as akid in a family.
Depending on how chaotic andtraumatic your childhood is,
it's either okay, I need these,I need these strategies to
survive, or I need thesestrategies to fit in, or I need
(26:26):
these strategies just to kind ofget along with everybody.
But the thing is, when you're alittle kid and you're forming
those strategies, it feels likesurvival, no matter how serious
it actually is, and it kind ofis because you don't have the
ability to get your own food andmake your own food, go get your
own, like yeah it kind of itreally is your own?
(26:47):
Yeah, but actually for the mostpoint, for the most part, though
, when you're a one and a halfyear old, two year old toddler
is like, if you don't behave injust the right way, your parents
aren't going to decide.
Decide not to feed you, but youdon't understand that.
You don't know that.
Decide not to feed you, but youdon't understand that.
You don't know that.
Correct, yeah, that's thepractical application is yeah,
you, usually you don't have toput on an act as a small child
(27:08):
to get fed and get sheltered andbe taken care of or even get
love, but it feels that way whenyou're that small, because
that's all your brain canunderstand at that point, and so
, yeah, you do come up withthese, these modes of behaving
and these parts that you playbecause of what you perceive to
be the expectations around youand also what you expect the
(27:29):
consequences to be correct andat that age it's like you feel
like it's life or death.
Dan (27:35):
There's we don't.
You can't even think of whatanother consequence would be or
how it would be less serious,yes, yeah.
Charles (27:41):
How else could this go, except the way that I've told
myself it's going to go?
And then those same, those sameskills, those same mechanisms.
You then try to show up withthose in a romantic relationship
as an adult.
Dan (27:57):
Because those are the tools and the way you believe things
need to run.
Yeah, that's, that's what youwere programmed with.
Charles (28:03):
Yeah, and the tools it takes to be a toddler who's just
trying to survive in his familyversus the tools it takes to be
a partner in a successful,long-term romantic relationship.
They're not the same tools.
And so when you, when you showup with those tools and you rely
on those tools and you defaultto those tools, it can cause
(28:25):
some significant difficulties inyour romantic relationships.
Dan (28:34):
And then those romantic relationships fall apart and
you're like okay, what do I donow?
I just kind of had a thought isdo you think it's possible?
The reason why so many usstruggle in relationships as we
get older?
Because of communicationproblems?
Because when we're younger ourparents are constantly
communicating what they want interms of our behavior and what
(28:55):
we're expected to do good or badwhereas in an adult
relationship that communicationis definitely not as present, as
forceful or as direct.
So then a lot of times it'skind of like well, I don't even
have the skill set to hunt andpeck and figure out and decipher
(29:16):
what I need to do to make thisrelationship work or what I need
to do to make this person happyCause you don't even really
have the skills, because it wasbasically kind of hated to you
on a silver platter almost interms of this is what you need
to be doing, whether it's verbalcommunication or nonverbal
communication, because our,because we didn't have a choice
(29:37):
when we were a kid, we didn'thave much of a choice in things.
So I feel like our parentsprobably were were really kind
of saying make it easy for us tofigure out, but as adults we're
not getting that same level ofinput from a partner Usually.
I'm just wondering you thinkthere's any any validity in that
, why it's sometimes difficultto figure out the right thing to
(29:58):
do.
Charles (29:59):
I would I mean in my, in my own experience.
I think there's another dynamicthat's going on, which is even
in relationships with partnerswho are willing and able to
honestly and openly communicatetheir needs to you.
Where do you find one of those?
In a therapist At least, atleast ideally, that's.
(30:24):
That's where they would spendsome of their time.
I think there's a part of usthat, based on our childhood
situations, we just say well,that's great that you're sharing
that with me, but I don'tbelieve you.
I don't believe that's what youactually want from me.
I don't believe that's actuallywhat you need from me.
Well, i've't believe you.
I don't believe that's what youactually want from me.
I don't believe that's actuallywhat you need from me.
Well, I've a hundred percent.
Do you know?
Believe that's actually whatkeeps.
(30:44):
What actually keeps people inmy life is not what you're
telling me.
It's because you're coming from.
Yeah, it is a story I've toldmyself.
Dan (30:52):
You have a story you've told yourself and something
you've repeated, and somethingthat your seeks out validation
for the beliefs that you havehas been working on this to
prove that this is the way theworld works For so many years.
Who are you to say no, itdoesn't work that way, or this
isn't the way you think it is?
Charles (31:13):
Right and imagine how frustrating that is for your
partner to hear when you're likethank you so much for sharing
that with me.
I really appreciate it, but Idon't believe you.
I think you probably believewhat you're telling me you need
from me, but it's not true.
I know what you actually needfrom me and I'm just going to
keep doing what I've been doing,because that's the truth of
what you actually require.
Dan (31:33):
I've been in relationships like that, where I've tried to
bring somebody up or encouragethem or whatever.
Encourage them or whatever, andit's it's it really kind of it
was the end of the beginning ofthe end for me, because it's
kind of like, wow, like as yourpartner, who you are telling me
that I'm in, the most importantperson or one of the most
important person people in yourlife, you're not even
(31:55):
considering that I might have a,there might be a hint of truth
or element of of truth to whatI'm telling you, and because of
that, I'm like, wow, there'sthis.
Now I feel disconnected.
Now I feel almost disrespected,like my beliefs and and all the
things that I have honed for myentire life.
(32:16):
I really I believe this to betrue about you, based on what
I'm saying, and you're nowquestioning my very core, my
beliefs too, right, and so it'slike, if you can't even be open
to the idea that I there mightbe something that I'm telling
you might be different at thatpoint, then it's I'm like, okay,
maybe we're snug with that.
Charles (32:37):
Yeah, I don't need you to believe everything, but just
don't completely dismiss myopinions on things interaction,
(33:04):
the kind of conversations, thekind though I know I'm telling
you exactly how I want you toshow up for me so this
relationship will work, and theother person, probably with
their actions, maybe with theirwords, is saying that's not what
you really need.
And I think that a lot of thered pill manosphere is really
good at saying don't believewomen when they tell you what
they want out of a man or out ofa relationship.
They think they know, but theydon't actually Really say that.
(33:25):
Oh, yeah, yeah, okay.
It's more.
I mean, every pickup artist whohas a book or a method to sell
is going to tell you don'tlisten to the women in your life
when they tell you what theywant.
Listen to me when I tell youwhat they want, yeah, want, yeah
, all right, hey look, andthere's something to be said for
it's very hard for us, ashumans, to really communicate
(33:46):
exactly what motivates us andexactly what we're looking for.
But you got to figure out a wayto trust the people that you
have in your life, especiallypeople who have done any level
of work with therapy or you know, any kind of mental health,
where it's like listen whenpeople do the work to come up
with their boundaries and theirneeds and they're willing to
(34:06):
express that to you, to say okay, yeah, but this guy on the
internet says that's not reallywhat really buys women men Right
and see that's interesting,because then you're still being
open to the idea that you don'thave it all figured out.
Dan (34:22):
But the people that you're still being open to the idea
that you don't have it allfigured out, but the people that
you're choosing to thenconsider, are ones that are have
a vested business interest inmaking money off of you, versus
somebody who has a life interest, a love interest in you.
And so if, oh my god, that's,that's really not a good idea,
right?
So I was going to say is like,if you're coming from the
perspective of I have it most ofeverything figured out, kind of
(34:43):
like saxon does, when when apiper questions him on you don't
know everything he's like aboutthe whole dream situation,
somebody like that then you'renot really open to anybody.
Okay, I understand that.
But then if you are then puttingyour your faith and that's why
I think a lot of times peopleget nuts when you try to give
(35:03):
advice to family members.
You love them, you care aboutthem, but until they hear it
from some outside force that'ssomebody here all the time and
I'm guilty of that too givingadvice and family not taking it
but then they'll hear fromsomebody else.
It's like this exact same thingthat I just said, and then, all
of a sudden, they take actionon it or they consider it.
I mean, I'm guilty of that too,for sure, but I yeah, I
(35:26):
consider that being frustrating.
Charles (35:28):
Yeah, yeah.
And I would say, if you do it,if you find yourself in a
relationship with a partnerwho's willing to share what they
need with you, and then you'renot willing to believe it and
act on it, it's like, okay, Imean, you're free to do that,
but you're you're on a countdownto the to the end of that
relationship and a lot of timeswhen you say what they need from
(35:49):
you.
Dan (35:49):
A lot of times too, is it's a self-esteem type of thing.
It's just like you're reallyshitting on yourself, like you
are not this broken orunattractive or whatever else
that is and I've been withpeople who think they are, and
so it's just like part of it islike I feel offended, like that
(36:10):
You're not even considering thatI I might have some truth in
what I'm saying or that there'sanother option.
But also now is like, if you'vegot this really low opinion of
yourself, you think what do youthink of me?
That you think what do youthink of me?
That I am attracted to you ondating or whatever.
That is Right, right and I waslike it.
(36:31):
So now I just mind.
See what.
What is going through my mind,okay, what's going through her
mind when it comes to heropinion of me?
Charles (36:42):
yeah, it yeah is.
Is she?
Is she a charity case for youor are you also a piece of shit?
I mean, what's the yeah?
Is she doing a?
She do me a favor?
Thank my god, she yeah.
Yeah, that's it okay.
So let's speaking of well, it'sfor the other side of that.
Let's talk about guy, talk alittle his little crush that he
(37:04):
has on his girl well, not reallyhis girl, right, his friend.
Yeah, I guess one of one of thethings I thought about him
having a crush on her and theway that my friends who are
women talk about crushes.
In my experience, theenthusiasm that they share in
(37:27):
conversations about crushes arealways about them having a crush
on someone else and never aboutsomeone else having a crush on
them.
No, I never hear girls who areexcited to share oh, this guy I
work with has a crush on me andit's so much fun.
Dan (37:44):
Oh, that's never end use.
It's so much fun, it's soannoying.
Charles (37:47):
Correct, yeah, yeah, where a conversation like oh,
there's this guy I work with.
He just started a couple ofweeks ago and he's so cute, I
have such a crush on him Likethey're excited about that, like
it's fun for them to have thecrush.
But I can't think of times whenthey talk about being fun for,
okay, somebody else to have acrush on.
Dan (38:05):
Now I've got a question for the people that have been
expressing this to you, whereyou know they've complained that
they don't have that somebody'sgot a crush on them.
When they explain to you thesituation, do you feel they've
done an adequate job in terms ofcommunicating their disinterest
to them, or Well, I would not,let me.
Charles (38:25):
Let me be honest.
I don't even know that they'veused the language of this guy's
got a crush on me becausethere's almost something
positive and fun about oh, it'sa crush that me because there's
almost something positive andfun about oh, it's a crush.
That is.
That's usually not the way Ihear it.
It's usually more like this guyat the office.
He's just like I can tell helikes me and he's constantly
(38:47):
around and he won't leave mealone.
It's okay.
So it's like they're.
Yeah, the positivity is overcrushed us.
Dan (38:52):
You can make it as it would be so then it sounds like
they're not managing thesituation.
Let's say, to manage him out ofthe office and manage him to
spend less time there at thatpoint.
Charles (39:06):
I mean that puts a burden on them that I don't.
I'm not sure it's not.
It's not your job to manage theguy who doesn't know how to
directly and honestly state hisinterest in a way that makes you
feel flattered and safe.
Good point.
Good point, yes.
Dan (39:23):
Okay.
So yeah, it's.
It's not gotten to the stage ofwhere it is out on the table
yet, so to speak.
Right, correct, okay, all right.
Charles (39:30):
So, yeah, all right, I think and I think the language
that women choose to discussthat can you can sort of get a
feel for how competent the guyis at behaving in a way that's
attractive and flirty andhinting at his interest and
without it, yeah, it's like,once again, as we've said in
(39:54):
previous episodes, being honestabout your desire, your
intention, in a way that isemotionally intelligent and and
sophisticated, given your theenvironment that you met the
person in it's like that'sthat's not creepy.
Person in it's like that'sthat's not creepy.
(40:16):
So what's creepy is when youdon't really understand the way
to communicate interest, giveneither the work relationship or
the way that you met the person,like, given your environment.
You need to figure out how do Iexpress interest to this person
in a way that will let themfeel free to say either yes or
no and know that it's not goingto be a big deal, okay, so up
until this point in this season.
Dan (40:39):
Do you think italk?
Charles (40:40):
has been creepy or not.
I think he's been on the edgeof creepy.
I think he is.
No, I I think he's he's passive.
Certainly we can agree thathe's very passive.
He's willing to drop some hintsand even make some arguments
for why he would be a goodpartner.
But he has gotten indicators ofdisinterest that he's just kind
(41:07):
of, in a polite way,steamrolling past those
indicators of disinterest.
Yeah, you know, yeah, where,when you get an indication, way
steamrolling past thoseindicators of disinterest, yeah,
you know, yeah, where, when,when you get an indication that
a girl's not you're interestedin a girl romantically and she's
indicated that she's notinterested in you romantically
certainly not at the same level.
He should have been taking somesteps to step, to step back,
(41:31):
some steps to step back where,yeah, he should have withdrawn
some of her, some of hisattention and interaction,
because he's he's essentiallygoing to, he's returning to a
dry well where the healthy thingfor him to do is not keep going
back to the dry well.
Dan (41:50):
It's, it's fine, find other wells, they may not be dry if,
if you remember the line, likethe line that Srutala's
bodyguards gave him when theywere talking, they ran into him
in one of the scenes of thisepisode.
Charles (42:03):
Oh yeah, after he invites himself to be one of her
bodyguards.
Dan (42:06):
Yes, and you go oh, turkey trying to become a rooster, huh,
a little turkey trying tobecome a rooster, yeah.
And they're like yeah, youcan't even get, you can't even
do what they pay you, the onething they pay you, you know
what I'm saying?
Charles (42:20):
Yeah, and listen, those , those guys were.
I mean, I didn't find them tobe professional or curious with
the way they were interactingwith him, but we can make
certain things, certainassumptions about what it takes
to be a adequate bodyguard inThailand.
Dan (42:38):
I mean, think about a bodyguard that needs.
You're basically throwingyourself your life in front of
the person you're protecting.
Charles (42:46):
Yeah, or as part of the protection of that person,
you're willing to get a littlerough with other people that
might be a threat.
Yeah, get a little rough withother people that might be a
threat, yeah, when I mean youdon't even know for sure if
they're going to be a threat,but you're willing to put
yourself in front of them andact and speak and possibly
physically act in a way toprotect.
Yeah, you've got to be again, I.
I think a bodyguard in americamight be a little bit different,
(43:09):
but it's still like you.
You've got to be willing to putyourself in between and act out
physically if you need to.
Yeah, and it would seem thatguy talk has not demonstrated to
anybody that he is willing orable to do this.
Yeah, so volunteering for abodyguard position, it's I mean
just just from a professionalresume point of view, he's he's
(43:32):
kind of writing checks here thathe doesn't know he can actually
cash.
Dan (43:36):
I think it's a great way of rounding out his character a
little bit more with that typeof storyline.
Charles (43:42):
I've got ambition, but I'm also a little naive as far
as what it would take to be inthis role that I am inviting
myself or volunteering for.
Dan (43:54):
Right before he asks her, they show him praying to one of
the gods.
He put some bananas down foryou and so he was praying.
And then he tells Mook later onI was really impressed that I
risked myself for her and Iasked if I could be her
bodyguard, and I just want tolet you know that I put that out
in the doors.
Charles (44:23):
She's like, oh, that's nice, yeah, yeah, it's yeah, the
the whole thing that happenedwith him during the robbery
getting bogged on the head, thatand, in the way, not not the
fact that it happened but theway he tried to a little bit use
that and and sort of capitalizeon it with his relationship
with her.
Yeah, it's like you're settingyourself up for someone to be
pitied and have sympathy where,if anything, I think the most
(44:45):
attractive way he could havehandled it like yeah, it
happened, it wasn't a big dealand maybe even a little bit of.
I wish I I could have done more.
If I had to do over again, Iwould have yeah, but not not
this.
Oh, you're so brave.
Oh, thank you.
Dan (44:58):
It's like it took the opportunity.
Yeah, Seek presented it, but hedidn't like dissuade it.
And, like you said, come fullcircle and just go look.
Charles (45:08):
this is not what I'm about yeah, he should have been
a little dismissive of the wholething, like, yeah, I could have
handled better, because thatwould have reflected the reality
of the situation, he could havehandled it better.
I would assume that we knowthat he's been in that role for
a couple of years.
He's probably received sometraining where, so he probably
(45:30):
should have been Even just alittle bit better.
Yes, so he's definitely that'sknow.
It was just a little bit better.
Dan (45:35):
Yes, there, there, yeah.
So he's definitely that's, Ithink, also questioning a little
bit.
Charles (45:39):
Starts to question his role a little bit there, as
right, and then he probably feltthat he'd overcompensate for it
, right.
So, yeah, that's that's wherewe are with him.
And then we have a little biton put together about greg aka
gary and and just sort of it'slike, yeah, we know, we don't
(46:00):
know from previous seasons ofwhite lotus exactly how bad of a
guy this is.
We don't know how involved hewas in his ex-whites death, if
he was at all, because a lot ofwhat we saw in season two they
kind of implied that there wassomething going on with the way
that she, she, she found herselfin a situation that felt
dangerous and she reacted to itin a way that may have been
(46:23):
appropriate or may not have,because they never explicitly
tell told us, the viewer, whatkind of situation she was in in
season two.
Right, but she certainly passedaway under violent
circumstances.
Dan (46:36):
Well, what was interesting is adds to a little bit of the
story is, if you remember chloetalking to chelsea about greg
and his, his past.
She's like, oh, he had anex-wife who's apparently looked
like really crazy, how crazy.
Well, apparently she was socrazy she walked into the water
and drowned herself, somethinglike that.
That was objectively not true,right, and you never talked
(46:57):
about, you never talked aboutthe what would actually happen.
And so then you're like, okay,most likely he did do something
based on that.
Charles (47:08):
Or maybe, maybe, or maybe he's just trying to escape
the stigma of what happened tothis and maybe that's what the
police currently and as well.
Dan (47:13):
He's just trying to escape the stigma of what happened to
this, eric, and maybe that'swhat the police currently give
her and as well Correct, and sohe's got to go.
Charles (47:20):
Yeah, we don't know exactly what happened in that
scenario and we can see reasonsfor him making up a fake name
and a fake identity to escapeeither the suspicion or the
stigma.
Personally, I think they'remaking it clear that he probably
is a pretty bad guy.
Who did you know who may haveorchestrated her murder?
(47:42):
That never happened.
She died as a result of anaccident Because she was in a
situation where she thought shewas going to get murdered?
Dan (47:49):
Great, because he don't fully know.
Now he's got a differentidentity and he goes, tells Rick
, I did all this and that,because he doesn't want people
to put it together that he'sgreg from land man and, yeah,
he's basically a bureaucrat,right so, but at the same time
he's like anybody digging intohis hat, right, it doesn't mean
he definitely murdered her, butit's looking that way, but you
(48:10):
don't know for sure.
It's that clear cut.
And so, yeah, I think whitedoes a great job of having these
tiny little openings still thataren't like closed off, and I
think that's why we keep comingback to watch more yeah and yeah
.
Charles (48:25):
I think it's great and it's it's great to see how all
this, through the prism of theseguys acting the way they think
they have to act because ofexpectations, and because of
expectations and because ofpressure and because of
circumstances they've putthemselves in, it's like what's
the right thing to do, what'sthe effective thing to do,
what's the thing that I do tofulfill this role that I've
(48:46):
crafted for myself, and it and Ithink they do such a good job
of leaving these little openloops throughout all of the
seasons that they could easilyhave a side projects where they
show you the background of someof the characters, how they got
to that point.
Dan (49:03):
I would watch a lot of them .
Charles (49:05):
Yeah, it's just a matter of is Mike White going to
do the cash grab to tell thosestories to he?
May, he may not.
Dan (49:14):
Maybe after White, Lotus is all done for the Ruin series.
Yeah, have the spinoffs easily.
Charles (49:21):
I kind of hope he doesn't do that, though I hope
he does, I want more.
Dan (49:25):
I want more.
Charles (49:26):
Yeah.
Dan (49:27):
I don't care if it's good for him, he deserves it.
It's his brilliant stuff.
Charles (49:32):
He only deserves it because he's putting brilliant
stuff out there and he's notdoing it for the art, not the
money.
I can think of so many seriesthat have had their either
reimagining or they did extraseasons, and it's always not as
good as the first run.
Understood, Understood.
Maybe you're different, Maybeyou'll beat Smeagol, Maybe
(49:53):
you'll beat that.
I'll beat some of the guys.
Yeah, I think of some of theseries that I really enjoyed so
much and it's like God, if losscame back.
For where are they?
20 years old is like no, thankyou, I don't want to see that.
And yeah, I mean I.
What are star Wars coming back?
Or extra Lord of the Ringsmovies?
(50:13):
It's like it never feels asgood as the original.
Dan (50:16):
Sure, but there's enough people out there that you do
want to see.
Charles (50:21):
The masses are masses.
John Adams or AlexanderHamilton?
One of the two, I don't know ifthey actually ever said it, but
they got credit for saying that, so it's like yeah you need.
I want the artists in thedriver's seat of what art they
make, not the casual fans, yeah,and so you put the casual fans
(50:41):
in charge and then, yeah, youget things like the latest Star
Wars trilogy.
Yeah, really that's yeah, thefans and the executives coming
together to define what artshould be made.
How else could this go?
Anyway, all right, dad, we'llcome back next week with episode
(51:02):
four, awesome.
Okay, that's it for today'sconversation.
If you want full audio andvideo episodes or anything else
we feel like sharing head overto mindfully masculinecom Next
up, things get even more layeredas dynamics start to shift.
Power gets challenged and someof these guys find themselves in
deeper water than they expected.
Episode 4 is going to have alot to unpack and we're ready
(51:23):
for it.
We'll catch you then.
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