June 16, 2025 • 31 mins
Spoilers ahead for The White Lotus Season 3, Episode 6
This episode also includes extended discussion of suicide and suicidal ideation, as portrayed in the show. Please listen with care.
Incest, ecstasy, ego collapses, and a gun that keeps changing hands—Episode 6 of The White Lotus pulls no punches, and neither do we. Charles and Dan unpack the unraveling masculinity of Saxon, Rick, and Timothy, asking what happens when the illusion of control shatters and power turns out to be just another costume.
We talk sibling boundaries obliterated, suicide contemplated, and the high cost of avoiding emotional discomfort—especially for men who’ve built their identities on dominance, detachment, or denial.
It’s one of our most intense—and most honest—conversations yet.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dan (00:00):
We always run towards pleasure and away from pain, but
when we get to wherever we wantto go, there's only more pain
because we're running towardsthe pleasure.
And so what you're talkingabout is, yeah, we're running
towards that pleasure and thatgood feeling of what Rick was
doing, what Saxon's doing, right, yeah.
And you end up not realizingthat you're actually you're not
(00:23):
curing the root cause of thepain.
Charles (00:25):
No, it's really not by running towards the pleasure.
Dan (00:27):
You're not.
You're running away from theproblem you're not addressing
Exactly and you can't outrunpain.
That was the line he said.
You can't outrun pain.
Yeah, it's like this guy ispretty wise, all right.
Charles (00:35):
I like this guy.
Welcome back to the MindfullyMasculine Podcast this.
In today's episode, dan and Icontinue our exploration of
masculinity in the White Lotus,this time diving into Season 3,
episode 6.
If you're not caught up,consider this your spoiler alert
.
We will be discussing plot andcharacter developments from all
episodes up to and includingEpisode 6.
(00:58):
One more heads up before webegin.
This conversation includes anextended discussion about
suicide and suicidal ideation asit relates to the characters in
the show.
So if that's a sensitive topicfor you right now, please take
care of yourself and feel freeto skip this one or come back to
it later.
All right, let's get into it asif they are important.
Just yeah, figure it out thethings that I really want to do
(01:22):
versus the things that I feellike I should want to do.
But it's good.
I mean, I've got good problemsto have and good challenges to
work through, but it is stillchallenging in the lab, you know
what's new with me?
Dan (01:35):
Been a little crazy busy with the full-time paying job as
we talked about, yeah and yeah,but excited for some things we
talked about this morning orlast night, I guess it was.
Yeah, I feel like I'm on track.
I definitely am grateful foryou working with my tendencies.
Charles (01:55):
Ditto.
Dan (01:55):
Yeah.
So I think we found a waythrough and I'm excited for it.
So that's, I'm looking forwardto some new things coming down
the pipe for my career.
Charles (02:05):
So yeah, I'm looking forward to that as well.
I think it's going to be.
I think we're both going to beable to have a fun time, yeah,
working through some ideas.
That reminds me.
Let me, okay, I'll go throughand upload all those, do you?
All the files that I worked onthis morning, later on, sweet
thanks, and yeah, okay, so let'sjump back in.
We're on.
We're up to episode number sixof of eight of talking about the
(02:28):
white lotus and the fellas andall the stuff they're going
through.
Six was pretty, pretty wild,yeah, yeah, a lot of suicide
mixed in with a bit of incest,uh-huh, drug use, violence, all
the major food groups, I suppose.
So we'll start with saxon,because he seemed to be the most
out of control at the beginningof this episode.
(02:49):
So he, he got drunk, he diddrugs and he had engaged in some
incest with his little brother,which was prizing and wild to
see.
Yeah, and he's not handling itvery well, right, he, he's
having some trouble with it andI mean I would too, but I would
also again, I, you know it'shard to not, you don't want to
(03:12):
be judgmental.
It's like look, people makemistakes, people want to fuck
their brothers.
Dan (03:16):
Let them.
I mean you might've judged it'spretty Brotherfucker, yeah,
(03:45):
no-transcript next day.
Charles (03:50):
And even if there weren't drugs or alcohol
involved or brothers just like,oh that the way I behaved
yesterday was not in alignmentwith who I thought I was or who
I want the world to think I amnow.
What do I do about that?
Dan (04:04):
so what's interesting here is the scenes where saxon is
engaging with his brother fromthe last episode, if you
remember, they're like kiss, andeven this episode.
I'm not going to say saxon'sthe victim here, but he
definitely was not the aggressor.
Yeah, he's not the initiator,for sure.
(04:24):
And his face, like after thekiss and then after after the
incident, was of disgust.
Charles (04:31):
So, yeah, yes, granted he didn't stop it, but at the
same time I feel like, yeah, hewas kind of a almost a victim of
his little brother being alittle aggressive with him, with
the kiss that kind of came outof nowhere, agreed and yeah, and
I think and I think that's partof I think that really
contributes to his level ofdiscomfort, because it's not
(04:54):
only, hey, I'm this super alpha,macho man, straight guy, but a
lot of his identity is also I'mthe guy, I'm the initiator, I'm
the guy that makes things happen.
Oh, good, point, right, this washim being reactive, things
happening to him and going alongwith it, and that's not who he
(05:17):
wants to be, either right, and Iwould almost I mean look, doing
an act that is certainly notstraight.
I mean, whether you want to callit gay or not, or homosexual, I
don't really care about thatlabel but it's not the, it's not
the actions of the straight guythat he wants all the ladies at
the resort to think he is andthat he wants to think of
(05:38):
himself at.
So, yeah, he.
And it's not like he decided,oh, I'm going to try this.
It's like, no, he was theperson that it got done to and
it happened to, and so, yeah, hedoesn't have the autonomy, the
agency or the proactiveness thathe fancies about himself.
Right, and I think it hit himthat way.
(06:00):
It hit him as a straight guyengaging in activity that's not
straight and it hit him as anolder brother who's an activity
that's not straight, and it hithim as an older brother who's
engaging in this activity withhis younger brother than his
younger brother initiated.
So there's a lot of levels thatthis is a really fucked up
situation for sure.
For sure and, but again, he'snot some innocent victim that
all this happened to without his.
Dan (06:20):
He wasn't forced into anything no, but he thinks he
was, because you remember he hada conversation with the girls
the next day, yeah, and they'relike he's like, oh, they asked
if he had a ever had a threesomebefore.
And he's like, yeah, lots oftimes, but you know, never,
never with a guy.
And they're like, well, whatabout last night?
And like it's like what aboutlast night?
He's like well, he's like ohwell, you kissed.
(06:42):
And he's just like, well, youforced us to.
And it's like no, well, he'slike oh well, you kissed.
And he's just like, well, youforced us to.
And it's like, no, nobodyforced you to kiss at that point
, right?
So again, yeah, a little bit of, but he's all over the place
after that experience, I meanyeah, it's, I mean it all.
Charles (06:57):
I mean like every other guy on the show.
It's like, okay, now let's takesome, let's take some stuff out
of their hands, let's take someautonomy away and then see how
everybody reacts to it.
Yeah, and I mean generally, theanswer is not good.
Yeah, because I think most ofus guys don't react well to I
mean think about a breakup,breaking up with someone versus
(07:20):
being broken up with.
I mean, the level of how itaffects you is completely
different when it's somethingthat happens to you versus
something that you decide tomake happen.
And we've talked about thisbefore, I think referencing some
of Jordan Peterson's work, orat least something that he's
talked about where it's like theguys who come back from war
with PTSD they're not thespecial forces operators who are
(07:43):
told okay, go breach thatbuilding.
Those aren't the guys that comeaway with PTSD.
It's the guys who are justdriving in a convoy and, all of
a sudden, a bomb goes off and,you know, just injured.
Yeah, they're not expecting it,it wasn't something that they
initiated, they're justsurprised and reacting to it.
Those are the guys that havePTSD, the guys who were told
okay, go into that building witha bunch of guys that have guns
(08:04):
and kill them all.
Those are the guys that don'ttypically suffer as much as the
guys who are just going abouttheir business.
As a mechanic or a truck driverhappens to be in the middle of
a war zone, that somethingunexpected happens and they're
like okay, now I can never relaxdoing my job for the rest of my
life because a bomb could gooff it just goes to show how
important it is to be mentallyprepared for whatever you're
(08:28):
engaging.
Dan (08:28):
It doesn't even have to be just war, right, exactly
whatever anything whatever, itis right exactly.
Charles (08:33):
You need to have that sense of I'm the one making life
happen, not life is happeningto me, and I think that's where
a lot of sanctions issues arecoming from, like this.
These things are just happeningto him, yeah, and so he feels
like he's out of control, out ofpower and he's he's not dealing
with it well again, as most ofus do not right.
Dan (08:53):
But, in all fairness, he there was a scene I don't know
if that was the last episodebefore where they closed out and
he's like, oh, right before thefull moon party.
He's like, oh, shit's gonna getcrazy, right.
So yeah, okay, oh, but he'sputting himself.
Charles (09:07):
But how crazy is it gonna be?
Exactly, yeah, like I'm okaywith things getting crazy,
exactly as far as I want them toright, and but yeah, I mean,
and again, it's not, like I'mnot a fan.
Okay, now let's blame him foranything, like there's nothing
wrong that happened, that he'sthe like hey, you should have,
(09:30):
this is your fault, youshouldn't have done this.
But at the same time and itkind of gets into a gray area
where we don't say this and weshouldn't say this about people
when something bad happens tothem.
They're a victim of somethingwe don't say, oh, but what were
you wearing?
Or you were you wearing, or youshouldn't have.
You shouldn't have that much todrink, it's like.
But in this case, saxon was aperson with a lot of power going
into this situation and he madedecisions that were going to
(09:55):
reduce his agency.
Dan (09:58):
He and he's trying to get something out of it, remember,
yeah absolutely.
Charles (10:01):
Yeah, he wants to hook up with what you want, one or
both of these girls exactlyright, and so that's he thought
he was going to get somethingout of it.
Dan (10:05):
Remember?
Yeah, absolutely yeah, he wantsto hook up with what you want
one or both of these girls,exactly right, and so that's he
thought he was going to getsomething out of it.
Charles (10:08):
yeah, go in with a lot of power, trade-off and an
agenda and then you start doingthings like drinking too much
and popping drugs and you've gotto be at least cognizant of the
fact that, okay, some thingscould right my agenda might not
work out exactly the way that Iwanted to, and if I'm in a, if I
choose to be into it in adiminished state, it was like,
(10:29):
yeah, boy, this is, I mean, thisis uncomfortable thinking about
, because, again, I am not a fanof blaming people who get it
over their head.
Dan (10:36):
The girls did not let him off because Chelsea goes.
I don't think there's a drug inthe world that would make me
get with my brother, and thenhe's just like oh yeah stumbles
off back to.
Charles (10:44):
Let's go back to bed, yeah yeah, so yeah, on the one
hand, it's like I feel for aperson who's going through an
awkward difficult time, but it'slike also, you certainly made
this bed and now, dude, doingsome emotional work, to lie in.
It is going to be difficultnext to your brother.
Yes, exactly.
Well, let's talk aboutlachlan's react.
(11:07):
Yeah, how did he react to this?
He is not horrified and he'snot disgusted.
Dan (11:13):
I think he's confused because afterwards he's too like
I.
Charles (11:17):
I think his brother Saxon was giving him the cold
shoulder yeah, I think I don'tthink that this is a guy who is
quote-unquote gay for his olderbrother.
I don't think that's what'sgoing on.
I think I don't think that thisis a guy who is quote unquote
gay for his older brother.
I don't think that's what'sgoing on.
I think he just wants to feelconnected and like he has
something in common with thisguy that he looks up to and he
said yeah, here's an opportunityfor me to do something that'll
(11:37):
make me and my brother closertogether.
Yeah, like whoops, no, itdidn't.
And it'll make him happy.
Dan (11:41):
Yes, exactly didn't, and it'll make him happy.
Yeah, exactly, yeah.
So I don't remember in thescene if, like, saxon was
masturbating on his own and thenLockie came in, or if it was
always Lockie the whole time.
But regardless, yeah, lockie'sprobably getting the message.
Charles (11:55):
Hey, yeah, he thought he was following the script too
Right?
This is what I'm supposed to doin this situation In all
fairness.
Dan (12:06):
I mean, the kid's 18 years old and he's in this threesome
after drinking and doing drugsand everything else like that.
He yeah, he probably doesn'tknow where the boundaries are
for his brother I mean, that'snot something you talk about on
the dinner table, clearly andnot that family either.
Charles (12:15):
Yeah, no, exactly.
Yeah.
This whole thing is a level ofrepression and just I mean, when
you're not willing to talkabout anything, then your whole
life is just I'll just go withthe flow.
And then again you look backthe next day of go with the flow
and maybe you're like, ooh,that I don't know if that was
the right move or not.
Dan (12:32):
So yeah, sure, I mean, look , we've all done stupid stuff.
So yeah, not quite the samelevel, no, but I'm saying, going
with the whole analogy, right?
Yes, it's just like you thinkthis is what's right.
You're making your bestdecision.
You made the best decision withthe information you had at the
time Right.
Charles (12:49):
And I think that I mean the people I know that like the
like going out drinking, likethe rave scene, like all that
stuff, the ones that seem tohave, yeah, somewhat of a handle
on partying, are the ones thatgo in with a plan of I'm going
to watch my drink, I'm going toalways be with a friend and
(13:11):
we're going to have each other'sbacks and we're one of us isn't
going to just find some girl orguy to just leave with and
leave the other person stranded.
I mean, those are the peoplethat seem to come out of that
life, once they do age out of it, without really bad stories,
you know, but it's like okay,well, it's tough.
I mean, it's very easy to makethe case of oh, I don't, I'm
(13:32):
just not going to engage in thatlife at all because it's too
hard to get fucked up on drugsand alcohol and try to manage
the outcomes.
Dan (13:40):
It can be Absolutely, yeah, right, but if you have
intentions going in, it'scertainly better than not having
intentions, right, but if youhave intentions, going in.
Charles (13:46):
It's certainly better than not having intentions,
right, yeah.
But it's also be aware that allthe best plans that you make I
mean nobody drives to the bar orthe restaurant planning to get
a DUI on the way home, right?
Everybody is like, oh, either Iwon't drink that much, or if I
do drink that much, I'll arrangefor transport safely back to my
house.
And then you get drunk anddecide that, oh no, making the
(14:10):
drive home seems like a greatidea because your ability to
make good decisions is going tobe impacted, oh for sure, when
you're hitting the alcohol andthe ecstasy.
Dan (14:17):
Yeah, I mean, even when you're hangry, if you've got you
, try to make decisions, don't.
Charles (14:22):
Don't, we're fixing your physical state, yeah going
to the grocery store when you'rehungry look at what ends up in
your cart versus after you'vehad a big meal and then you go
grocery shopping yeah, or thingsthat bother you from other
people, relationships, whateverthat's.
Dan (14:36):
I've really, as I've gotten older, realize, realized that I
need to take my time and notmake any decisions when it comes
to like feeling strong emotionsin any direction, until I've
given it some time and I canmake the decision from a less
emotional state.
And it always works out betterand most of the time I don't
even need to make decisions, butby that point things kind of
(14:58):
worked out ironically yeah, so,all right, the boys are having
all this fun.
Charles (15:03):
What's their dad up to?
Oh, my, my God, they'redefinitely opening scene.
Yes, right, I mean, yeah, therewere.
Yeah, he's fantasizing aboutsuicide and murder suicide in
this episode.
Right, and one, one point that,as I was putting together the
analysis for this is theinteresting thing, is part of
his fantasy is the being foundafter he does it.
(15:23):
Yeah, after he does it, yeah,like the, I'm going to kill
myself and then I'm going to bediscovered by my family and my
family's going to be very upsetabout it, because but I feel
like that's what's stopping himfrom doing it.
Dan (15:35):
That was at least my interpretation.
Maybe I'm reading too much intoit yeah, see, I think what's
stopping him from doing it isjust the cowardice yeah, well, I
guess the first time he gotcaught when he was really going
to do it remember his wife didon him the last episode yeah, so
yeah, I guess he was.
Yeah, he was ready to do it.
Charles (15:55):
Well, I think there's a difference between being walked
in on in the act versus beingwalked in on after you do it.
You know where One you're goingto notice.
Yeah, it's that thing.
Yeah, one you're around for andthe other one you're not.
But yeah it's.
Yeah.
I think I think there issomething to be said for I mean
people who do choose to commitsuicide in a way that their
(16:17):
loved ones will discover them.
It's.
I mean, I remember when artyfrom the howard stirred show,
when he I think it was hissecond suicide attempt where he
drank a bunch of bleach and thenstabbed himself like nine times
in the stomach and then his momfound him Dabbed himself yeah
drank what he did.
He drank bleach and then hestabbed himself and then his mom
found him and it wasinteresting.
(16:38):
The first thing I thought wasbecause when you talk about his
mom on the show, it's it wasalways about oh, how much I love
my mom, how much of a mama'sboy I am.
It's like, yeah, but I I thinkthere's an undercurrent of anger
or resentment.
If you're willing to killyourself in a way, in a violent
way like that, and your mom isgoing to discover your body,
yeah, I think that's kind of afuck you to your mom a little
(16:59):
bit.
Dan (17:00):
Oh my god, I had no idea he did that or tried to do that,
that's yeah, I mean a guy withthat kind of money.
Charles (17:05):
He could very easily rent a boat, go out to the
middle of the ocean, take abunch of sleeping pills and then
just fall off the boat, okay,so here's a question Stabbing
yourself seems like a slow andpainful way to go about doing
this.
Dan (17:18):
Is it one of those things where he really doesn't want to
do it and just wants to getcaught and wants some attention?
You think yeah, could be I mean, I feel like there's so many
easier ways to go about thatyeah, no, there are.
Charles (17:27):
There are ways to.
There are ways to kill yourselfthat are nearly 100 effective,
and drinking bleach and stabbingyourself is not one of them,
because your, your cuts aregoing to be shallow, I mean
right but like moving forwardfrom that your life, you're
gonna be fucking up your stomachLike how do you life afterwards
(17:48):
?
They found out he went straightinto surgery.
I mean, obviously they had todo a lot of work to repair the
damage that he did and pump hisstomach and all that kind of
stuff.
Yeah, but he was also I mean hewas also hitting the heroin
pretty heavy and the alcohol andhe was in rough shape.
But yeah, the whole I'm goingto do this and I'm going to get
discovered is it does it doesfeel like a final fu to your
(18:12):
family?
Dan (18:13):
I mean maybe, because I think that was this episode
where tim was talking about doyou know what kind of pressure
I'm under?
Or was that?
Charles (18:23):
maybe that's the last I think that was the last, the
last one, right before bed andhe's just like he's telling his
wife.
Dan (18:26):
He's like you know what kind of pressure I'm under, or
was that?
Maybe that's the last?
I think that was the last, thelast one right before bed.
And he's just like he's tellinghis wife.
Charles (18:29):
He's like you know what kind of fucking pressure I'm
under?
Yeah.
Dan (18:30):
Like as if she doesn't understand.
So maybe there is a littleelement of.
Charles (18:35):
Yeah, like I'm out here on my own, you need to see what
you're going to deal with Right.
Dan (18:41):
Maybe you're right.
Charles (18:42):
And so it's interesting that his the tool that he stole
to make this happen.
The gun gets stolen back.
Dan (18:48):
How weird is that the way they set that up.
They add a little mysticism inthere because Guy Tocco is in
there and then it's a chest ofprobably 20 drawers.
The first one he opens up andbasically in the nick of time
because as he's walking out ofthe compound there, Timothy
comes back.
Tim and his wife are comingback on the way back, so any if
(19:10):
he had been looking through anyof the other drawers to try to
find that thing, he probablywould've been caught.
Charles (19:12):
Yeah, that was interesting.
I thought that.
I thought I remember the drawerbeing a little bit open, but
maybe not.
I don't think so I think causethey were playing all the
Timothy.
Leave the drawer a little right.
Dan (19:19):
They played all this mystical.
They're definitely setting itup to be some sort of spiritual
like awakening or signal thatGuy Talk had.
Charles (19:27):
Yeah, yeah.
So now, seemingly, this guy'seasiest way of doing it goes
away.
So it's like, okay, he's not,he's not going to not commit
suicide with a gun because he'sworked anything out.
It's going to be.
It's just like what if the toolwent away, but the desire, I'm
sure, is still going to be thereas he continues to think about
what's going on with thisbusiness away, but the desire,
I'm sure, is still going to bethere as he continues to think
about what's going on with thisbusiness.
Dan (19:47):
So would you give guy talk credit in terms of saving his
life?
No, because I don't know that.
He didn't do it intentionally.
He didn't.
He didn't know he was going todo what he's done yeah, that's
true, I mean he.
Charles (19:57):
Yeah, in that of anything, I still don't give guy
talk a pass.
Or a gun got stolen on yourwatch.
You have no idea what kind of amass murder he was chasing a
woman, by the way and yeah, youhave no idea what level of
violence could be visited uponthis resort because the gun got
stolen and your, your move stillto keep quiet about it and not
immediately be like, hey, my gunstolen, hey, the surveillance
(20:21):
video has this guy doing it?
When you get three or four guystogether with guns to go to his
bungalow and get the gun back,yeah, I mean so.
Yeah, I feel like guy talkdefinitely let's show us maybe a
little male pride there, right,I mean, well, certainly that,
but he's also, I mean that's,yeah, his job is to turn his
back on the screw-up that hemade and make the hard decision
(20:44):
for the sake of the safety ofthe guests and the staff, and he
didn't do that.
So, yeah, yeah he the up thathe made and make the hard
decision for the sake of thesafety of the guests and the
staff.
And he didn't do that.
So yeah he the fact that hedidn't immediately announce hey,
this gun's been stolen.
We need to, we need to figureit out.
Dan (20:54):
That would have totally right, and I can see.
I can see why he did thatbecause that would have ruined
his life.
It would have been fired forsure, right, he would have lost
respect from Mook yeah, her name.
Charles (21:06):
Right, those are her name.
I don't remember what her realname is, but yeah.
Dan (21:09):
Would have lost respect from her and and probably
himself, for just another.
He already felt embarrassed forthe way he went down from the
initial attack.
Now he's going to be basicallycompletely humiliated on
multiple levels.
So I can see the pressure there.
So I could see the pressurethere.
Charles (21:27):
I can see the pressure there too, but that doesn't
excuse it, I agree.
Yeah, he did the wrong thing,and I mean him getting the gun
back the way that he didunbelievably lucky for him.
Dan (21:37):
Right, but the thing is he already knew that Tim had it.
Like he saw in the video, hehad it, so all he had to do at
that point was go okay, look,this mother took the gun.
And yes, he looks bad that it'staken, but it's not like they
have to do a pro campus widesearch for it at this point,
right.
Charles (21:56):
Yeah, yeah, it's still.
I mean he got unbelievablylucky that you know.
I mean even Timothy killinghimself would have been one of
the better case scenarios for agun being stolen.
I mean that would be bad havinga guest steal a gun and kill
himself on your watch, but yeah,but then you still, it could
have been like a mass murder.
Yeah.
Dan (22:19):
It could have been.
He steals a gun, kills hisfamily, then himself, but now
the resort has a reputation forsomebody dying right, somebody
getting killed, and that wasyour fault, because it was the
gun that you let go Right, soyeah.
Charles (22:34):
So, yeah, guy talk got lucky, but it was just luck and
I, yeah, I don't give him anycredit.
And the thing is we don't knowif Timothy he could have had
that gun for a year and stillnot been willing to pull the
trigger.
A lot of people have suicidalthoughts and ideation without
actually moving forward with it.
Dan (22:53):
yeah, and so I mean timothy could have been in that thing,
but you know, we see with theway the final two episodes on
right whether the thing was.
I think it was the last episodewhere he was right about to
press pull the trigger.
Maybe he wasn't I mean I feltlike he was in it.
Charles (23:05):
The only reason why I stopped was because he got
interrupted by his wife thereare a lot of people in pop,
maybe even listeners to our show, who get really close to doing
it without doing it, and hecould have been one of those
many people.
I don't know.
That is incredibly close, yeah,it is, but you know that there
are definitely people that getvery close on multiple occasions
and never actually do it.
He and he could be one of them.
(23:25):
So let's talk about Rick.
So Rick is still you got tothink at some level dealing with
the out, the, the fallout ofhearing his friend's monologue
from the last episode, and thenit's like, okay, now let's move
on to this caper.
Dan (23:38):
I mean that's basically.
It sounds like it was hisentire life's purpose was to
meet this guy.
So I could see him very easilyand quickly, like he doesn't
matter what Chelsea's doing,what Chelsea's doing for him or
to him or whatever.
This other guy freak, whatever,yeah, and so he's back, fixated
on it and he's going to doanything he can and, if you
remember, get this confrontationand he basically is lying to
(23:59):
everybody.
He's got the gun with him.
He told his buddy that he toldFrank, he Told his buddy that he
told Frankie wasn't going tobring the gun.
Charles (24:04):
So yeah, so he Man's on a mission, he makes up the
whole fake story with theproducer, the director, the
let's get together, we're goingto put you, put the wife in
movies and the episode just endswith him showing up at their
house for the meeting.
And yeah, he is.
It is interesting how friendlyand jovial he can be with her
(24:28):
and when he needs to get what hewants, he's able to show this
woman a fake side of himself toget what he wants out of her.
And meanwhile he can't show hisgirlfriend anything like that
fake or authentic.
That would obviously make hervery happy to be able to have
that kind of see that side ofhim.
Yeah, but it's not.
Yeah, it's not worth the effortto even fake it with his
(24:50):
girlfriend.
Where he's to get an audiencewith this guy that he wants to
confront, he's willing to dowhatever, yeah it really just
shows that how dangerous it isto live this victim mindset for
your entire life.
Dan (25:04):
That's what it sounds like when he was talking about this.
Guy needs to know what he didto me Right by removing my
father out of my life.
Charles (25:13):
Yeah, and I'll do whatever I have to do.
Dan (25:15):
I'll become whoever I have to be to get my opportunity and
the ironic part was he was alsogoing in without a plan Cause
every time somebody asked him Ithink it was Chelsea andsea and
frank was like what are yougoing to do when you get there?
I don't know it was, I don'tknow.
I just I need to tell him andthen that's it, and it's just
like well, well then, why you'rebringing the gun?
Charles (25:31):
and then, like you're basically just going to let your
emotions give you, take you fora ride at that point, like
that's what the other fiveactions, like you don't know how
this guy's going to react, andthen you're going to be subject
to just reacting to how this guychooses to interact with you
yeah, yeah, I mean, you can see,this is a setup for a disaster
(25:51):
and it's kind of like Saxon.
It's like, okay, you've got thisbig plan, but you're not
willing to actually go all theway with thinking out the
consequences of your actions.
So therefore, you're going intothis with way less power and
control than you think youactually have.
Yeah, and I mean we were havingconversations about 75 hard
last night where it's like, yeah, go into something like that
(26:12):
without a full comprehensiveplan, with just I got half plans
and half vibes and we'll seehow it works out.
Well, it's not going to workout.
Dan (26:20):
Yeah it's a lot easier to go in that way.
It's a lot easier to not thinkabout the boundaries that you're
going to put on yourself rightand think through the different
scenarios of what could happenin those scenarios, which would
dictate where you put thoseboundaries yeah, yeah, what are
all the things?
and I mean, you talked aboutthat when, if you're going out
to doing drugs or whatever, outat a party, whatever, yeah, you
basically just set yourboundaries because you're like,
(26:42):
oh, I'm gonna have somebodywatch my back because there's a
possibility that somebody couldput something in my drink or
whatever else.
I'm not gonna go chase thisother person because then how am
I gonna get home?
What are we gonna do, like?
So you're right, you'rethinking ahead of time and
putting those boundaries inplace and it sounds simple, but
there's a lot of times we justare like, oh, just, I don't have
to put the time and energy andeffort.
(27:02):
Well, it is not fun.
Charles (27:04):
I mean, you know how much time do you want to spend
planning out the fun evening ofelectronic music and drugs and
alcohol and sex?
And it's like, okay, yeah,before we do all that, let's get
together, let's open up ourspreadsheets and put together a
plan.
Nobody wants to do that, butI've created a PowerPoint and
you can see here Exactly andyeah, I understand not wanting
(27:27):
to do that or your big, your bigvendetta, getting revenge for
the guy that you know killedyour dad or whatever.
It's like, yeah, I that theperson who decides to go on that
mission is not the person whosays and now I'm going to plan
out all of the eventualities andthe details.
Because once you start planningyour vendetta, once you start
(27:47):
putting the plan into pen andpaper, you're like, oh, this is
a terrible idea, I shouldn't dothis.
And probably the same thinghappens when it comes to drugs,
alcohol and prodigious sex.
It's like, once I plan out howI'm going to have enjoy my drugs
, alcohol and consequenceriddled sex, oh wait, okay, now
that I see this in paper, maybeI shouldn't do this with my
night, maybe I should dosomething else.
Dan (28:08):
Yeah, that doesn't make you feel good, so you don't end up
doing it.
Charles (28:11):
Yeah, so it's, it's tough.
It's like the way you go aboutsurviving some of these
dangerous situations is byasking yourself hard questions
about these dangerous situations, to the level where you decide,
oh, this is too dangerous, I'mnot going to do that.
And so I mean look, I knowpeople who struggle with
relationships and therapy andit's like, okay, well, if I do
(28:31):
enough therapy, then I won't bedrawn to these kinds of people
anymore.
Well, that doesn't sound likevery much fun.
I'm already drawn to thesekinds of people.
So if I and that makes me feelgood, yeah, if I work on myself
to the point where I'm notinterested in this kind of life
anymore, then I'm not going tohave this kind of life anymore.
Dan (28:48):
Yeah, I mean, if you remember, in this episode the
Saxons go, saxons, the Ratliff'sgo to the monk, to the to
combat, and Timothy meets withthe monk and he's like he's like
why you?
He's like why you know the monkknows what he wants to ask.
He's like speechless and he'sjust like you want to know why
your daughter wants to come here.
And the monk is like saysthere's a lot of people that
(29:09):
come from your country that cometo stay here because of
spiritual malaise.
And he talks about how wealways run towards pleasure and
away from pain, but when we getto wherever we want to go,
there's only more pain becausewe're running towards the
pleasure.
And so what you're talkingabout is, yeah, we're running
towards that pleasure and thatgood feeling of what Rick was
(29:32):
doing, what Saxon's doing, right, yeah.
And you end up not realizingthat you're actually you're not
curing the root cause of thepain.
Charles (29:40):
No, it's really not.
Dan (29:41):
By running towards the pleasure, you're running away
from the problem.
You of the pain.
No, it's really not.
By running towards the pleasure, you're not.
You're running away from theproblem, you're not addressing
it Exactly and you can't outrunpain.
That was the line he said.
You can't outrun pain.
Yeah, it's like.
This guy is pretty wise.
Charles (29:51):
All right, I like this guy.
Yeah, you can't out.
You definitely can't outrunpain and you can.
The pain goes away.
Dan (30:00):
Right and by going through that pain.
That's what builds resilience,too Right.
So I think that's an importantpart, that we need to learn how
to get a little uncomfortablewith everything so that we can
be resilient and address thepain yeah.
More quickly.
Charles (30:14):
Yeah, yeah, these the shortcuts are never shortcuts,
even though they seem like theyare.
But yeah, the result that yousay you want is through the work
that you don't want to do.
Dan (30:25):
yeah, and unfortunately it always works that way that's the
best thing, though, is thestuff you don't want to do are
is usually the path forward, isthe path, is the way that you
need to go, yeah.
So if you're ever confused, notsure what to work on, whatever
you don't want to do, that'sthere you go.
There's your path in front ofyou.
Yeah, whatever you don't wantto do, that's there you go.
Charles (30:43):
There's your path in front of it, whatever you're
working hard to avoid, oh yeah,is what you should be working
hard to conquer.
Dan (30:47):
Guilty yeah.
Charles (30:48):
Same, all right.
Well, let's stop there.
We only got two episodes left,seven and eight.
And yeah, from really six,seven and eight, those three
episodes.
They just kind of accelerateand get crazier and crazier and
I'm looking forward to talkingabout seven and especially eight
.
And yeah, we'll, we'll addressit next week.
(31:08):
Thanks, dan, all right, thanks.
Thanks for listening to thisepisode of the Mindfully
Masculine podcast in itsentirety.
If you've made it this far, weappreciate you being part of the
conversation.
For full audio and videoepisodes and anything else we
feel like sharing, check outmindfullymasculinecom.
We'll be back soon to breakdown episode seven of the season
of the White Lotus, wherethings will continue to get
messier.
(31:28):
We'll see you then.
We always run towards pleasure and away from pain, but
when we get to wherever we wantto go, there's only more pain
because we're running towardsthe pleasure.
And so what you're talkingabout is, yeah, we're running
towards that pleasure and thatgood feeling of what Rick was
doing, what Saxon's doing, right, yeah.
And you end up not realizingthat you're actually you're not
(00:23):
curing the root cause of thepain.
Charles (00:25):
No, it's really not by running towards the pleasure.
Dan (00:27):
You're not.
You're running away from theproblem you're not addressing
Exactly and you can't outrunpain.
That was the line he said.
You can't outrun pain.
Yeah, it's like this guy ispretty wise, all right.
Charles (00:35):
I like this guy.
Welcome back to the MindfullyMasculine Podcast this.
In today's episode, dan and Icontinue our exploration of
masculinity in the White Lotus,this time diving into Season 3,
episode 6.
If you're not caught up,consider this your spoiler alert
.
We will be discussing plot andcharacter developments from all
episodes up to and includingEpisode 6.
(00:58):
One more heads up before webegin.
This conversation includes anextended discussion about
suicide and suicidal ideation asit relates to the characters in
the show.
So if that's a sensitive topicfor you right now, please take
care of yourself and feel freeto skip this one or come back to
it later.
All right, let's get into it asif they are important.
Just yeah, figure it out thethings that I really want to do
(01:22):
versus the things that I feellike I should want to do.
But it's good.
I mean, I've got good problemsto have and good challenges to
work through, but it is stillchallenging in the lab, you know
what's new with me?
Dan (01:35):
Been a little crazy busy with the full-time paying job as
we talked about, yeah and yeah,but excited for some things we
talked about this morning orlast night, I guess it was.
Yeah, I feel like I'm on track.
I definitely am grateful foryou working with my tendencies.
Charles (01:55):
Ditto.
Dan (01:55):
Yeah.
So I think we found a waythrough and I'm excited for it.
So that's, I'm looking forwardto some new things coming down
the pipe for my career.
Charles (02:05):
So yeah, I'm looking forward to that as well.
I think it's going to be.
I think we're both going to beable to have a fun time, yeah,
working through some ideas.
That reminds me.
Let me, okay, I'll go throughand upload all those, do you?
All the files that I worked onthis morning, later on, sweet
thanks, and yeah, okay, so let'sjump back in.
We're on.
We're up to episode number sixof of eight of talking about the
(02:28):
white lotus and the fellas andall the stuff they're going
through.
Six was pretty, pretty wild,yeah, yeah, a lot of suicide
mixed in with a bit of incest,uh-huh, drug use, violence, all
the major food groups, I suppose.
So we'll start with saxon,because he seemed to be the most
out of control at the beginningof this episode.
(02:49):
So he, he got drunk, he diddrugs and he had engaged in some
incest with his little brother,which was prizing and wild to
see.
Yeah, and he's not handling itvery well, right, he, he's
having some trouble with it andI mean I would too, but I would
also again, I, you know it'shard to not, you don't want to
(03:12):
be judgmental.
It's like look, people makemistakes, people want to fuck
their brothers.
Dan (03:16):
Let them.
I mean you might've judged it'spretty Brotherfucker, yeah,
(03:45):
no-transcript next day.
Charles (03:50):
And even if there weren't drugs or alcohol
involved or brothers just like,oh that the way I behaved
yesterday was not in alignmentwith who I thought I was or who
I want the world to think I amnow.
What do I do about that?
Dan (04:04):
so what's interesting here is the scenes where saxon is
engaging with his brother fromthe last episode, if you
remember, they're like kiss, andeven this episode.
I'm not going to say saxon'sthe victim here, but he
definitely was not the aggressor.
Yeah, he's not the initiator,for sure.
(04:24):
And his face, like after thekiss and then after after the
incident, was of disgust.
Charles (04:31):
So, yeah, yes, granted he didn't stop it, but at the
same time I feel like, yeah, hewas kind of a almost a victim of
his little brother being alittle aggressive with him, with
the kiss that kind of came outof nowhere, agreed and yeah, and
I think and I think that's partof I think that really
contributes to his level ofdiscomfort, because it's not
(04:54):
only, hey, I'm this super alpha,macho man, straight guy, but a
lot of his identity is also I'mthe guy, I'm the initiator, I'm
the guy that makes things happen.
Oh, good, point, right, this washim being reactive, things
happening to him and going alongwith it, and that's not who he
(05:17):
wants to be, either right, and Iwould almost I mean look, doing
an act that is certainly notstraight.
I mean, whether you want to callit gay or not, or homosexual, I
don't really care about thatlabel but it's not the, it's not
the actions of the straight guythat he wants all the ladies at
the resort to think he is andthat he wants to think of
(05:38):
himself at.
So, yeah, he.
And it's not like he decided,oh, I'm going to try this.
It's like, no, he was theperson that it got done to and
it happened to, and so, yeah, hedoesn't have the autonomy, the
agency or the proactiveness thathe fancies about himself.
Right, and I think it hit himthat way.
(06:00):
It hit him as a straight guyengaging in activity that's not
straight and it hit him as anolder brother who's an activity
that's not straight, and it hithim as an older brother who's
engaging in this activity withhis younger brother than his
younger brother initiated.
So there's a lot of levels thatthis is a really fucked up
situation for sure.
For sure and, but again, he'snot some innocent victim that
all this happened to without his.
Dan (06:20):
He wasn't forced into anything no, but he thinks he
was, because you remember he hada conversation with the girls
the next day, yeah, and they'relike he's like, oh, they asked
if he had a ever had a threesomebefore.
And he's like, yeah, lots oftimes, but you know, never,
never with a guy.
And they're like, well, whatabout last night?
And like it's like what aboutlast night?
He's like well, he's like ohwell, you kissed.
(06:42):
And he's just like, well, youforced us to.
And it's like no, well, he'slike oh well, you kissed.
And he's just like, well, youforced us to.
And it's like, no, nobodyforced you to kiss at that point
, right?
So again, yeah, a little bit of, but he's all over the place
after that experience, I meanyeah, it's, I mean it all.
Charles (06:57):
I mean like every other guy on the show.
It's like, okay, now let's takesome, let's take some stuff out
of their hands, let's take someautonomy away and then see how
everybody reacts to it.
Yeah, and I mean generally, theanswer is not good.
Yeah, because I think most ofus guys don't react well to I
mean think about a breakup,breaking up with someone versus
(07:20):
being broken up with.
I mean, the level of how itaffects you is completely
different when it's somethingthat happens to you versus
something that you decide tomake happen.
And we've talked about thisbefore, I think referencing some
of Jordan Peterson's work, orat least something that he's
talked about where it's like theguys who come back from war
with PTSD they're not thespecial forces operators who are
(07:43):
told okay, go breach thatbuilding.
Those aren't the guys that comeaway with PTSD.
It's the guys who are justdriving in a convoy and, all of
a sudden, a bomb goes off and,you know, just injured.
Yeah, they're not expecting it,it wasn't something that they
initiated, they're justsurprised and reacting to it.
Those are the guys that havePTSD, the guys who were told
okay, go into that building witha bunch of guys that have guns
(08:04):
and kill them all.
Those are the guys that don'ttypically suffer as much as the
guys who are just going abouttheir business.
As a mechanic or a truck driverhappens to be in the middle of
a war zone, that somethingunexpected happens and they're
like okay, now I can never relaxdoing my job for the rest of my
life because a bomb could gooff it just goes to show how
important it is to be mentallyprepared for whatever you're
(08:28):
engaging.
Dan (08:28):
It doesn't even have to be just war, right, exactly
whatever anything whatever, itis right exactly.
Charles (08:33):
You need to have that sense of I'm the one making life
happen, not life is happeningto me, and I think that's where
a lot of sanctions issues arecoming from, like this.
These things are just happeningto him, yeah, and so he feels
like he's out of control, out ofpower and he's he's not dealing
with it well again, as most ofus do not right.
Dan (08:53):
But, in all fairness, he there was a scene I don't know
if that was the last episodebefore where they closed out and
he's like, oh, right before thefull moon party.
He's like, oh, shit's gonna getcrazy, right.
So yeah, okay, oh, but he'sputting himself.
Charles (09:07):
But how crazy is it gonna be?
Exactly, yeah, like I'm okaywith things getting crazy,
exactly as far as I want them toright, and but yeah, I mean,
and again, it's not, like I'mnot a fan.
Okay, now let's blame him foranything, like there's nothing
wrong that happened, that he'sthe like hey, you should have,
(09:30):
this is your fault, youshouldn't have done this.
But at the same time and itkind of gets into a gray area
where we don't say this and weshouldn't say this about people
when something bad happens tothem.
They're a victim of somethingwe don't say, oh, but what were
you wearing?
Or you were you wearing, or youshouldn't have.
You shouldn't have that much todrink, it's like.
But in this case, saxon was aperson with a lot of power going
into this situation and he madedecisions that were going to
(09:55):
reduce his agency.
Dan (09:58):
He and he's trying to get something out of it, remember,
yeah absolutely.
Charles (10:01):
Yeah, he wants to hook up with what you want, one or
both of these girls exactlyright, and so that's he thought
he was going to get somethingout of it.
Dan (10:05):
Remember?
Yeah, absolutely yeah, he wantsto hook up with what you want
one or both of these girls,exactly right, and so that's he
thought he was going to getsomething out of it.
Charles (10:08):
yeah, go in with a lot of power, trade-off and an
agenda and then you start doingthings like drinking too much
and popping drugs and you've gotto be at least cognizant of the
fact that, okay, some thingscould right my agenda might not
work out exactly the way that Iwanted to, and if I'm in a, if I
choose to be into it in adiminished state, it was like,
(10:29):
yeah, boy, this is, I mean, thisis uncomfortable thinking about
, because, again, I am not a fanof blaming people who get it
over their head.
Dan (10:36):
The girls did not let him off because Chelsea goes.
I don't think there's a drug inthe world that would make me
get with my brother, and thenhe's just like oh yeah stumbles
off back to.
Charles (10:44):
Let's go back to bed, yeah yeah, so yeah, on the one
hand, it's like I feel for aperson who's going through an
awkward difficult time, but it'slike also, you certainly made
this bed and now, dude, doingsome emotional work, to lie in.
It is going to be difficultnext to your brother.
Yes, exactly.
Well, let's talk aboutlachlan's react.
(11:07):
Yeah, how did he react to this?
He is not horrified and he'snot disgusted.
Dan (11:13):
I think he's confused because afterwards he's too like
I.
Charles (11:17):
I think his brother Saxon was giving him the cold
shoulder yeah, I think I don'tthink that this is a guy who is
quote-unquote gay for his olderbrother.
I don't think that's what'sgoing on.
I think I don't think that thisis a guy who is quote unquote
gay for his older brother.
I don't think that's what'sgoing on.
I think he just wants to feelconnected and like he has
something in common with thisguy that he looks up to and he
said yeah, here's an opportunityfor me to do something that'll
(11:37):
make me and my brother closertogether.
Yeah, like whoops, no, itdidn't.
And it'll make him happy.
Dan (11:41):
Yes, exactly didn't, and it'll make him happy.
Yeah, exactly, yeah.
So I don't remember in thescene if, like, saxon was
masturbating on his own and thenLockie came in, or if it was
always Lockie the whole time.
But regardless, yeah, lockie'sprobably getting the message.
Charles (11:55):
Hey, yeah, he thought he was following the script too
Right?
This is what I'm supposed to doin this situation In all
fairness.
Dan (12:06):
I mean, the kid's 18 years old and he's in this threesome
after drinking and doing drugsand everything else like that.
He yeah, he probably doesn'tknow where the boundaries are
for his brother I mean, that'snot something you talk about on
the dinner table, clearly andnot that family either.
Charles (12:15):
Yeah, no, exactly.
Yeah.
This whole thing is a level ofrepression and just I mean, when
you're not willing to talkabout anything, then your whole
life is just I'll just go withthe flow.
And then again you look backthe next day of go with the flow
and maybe you're like, ooh,that I don't know if that was
the right move or not.
Dan (12:32):
So yeah, sure, I mean, look , we've all done stupid stuff.
So yeah, not quite the samelevel, no, but I'm saying, going
with the whole analogy, right?
Yes, it's just like you thinkthis is what's right.
You're making your bestdecision.
You made the best decision withthe information you had at the
time Right.
Charles (12:49):
And I think that I mean the people I know that like the
like going out drinking, likethe rave scene, like all that
stuff, the ones that seem tohave, yeah, somewhat of a handle
on partying, are the ones thatgo in with a plan of I'm going
to watch my drink, I'm going toalways be with a friend and
(13:11):
we're going to have each other'sbacks and we're one of us isn't
going to just find some girl orguy to just leave with and
leave the other person stranded.
I mean, those are the peoplethat seem to come out of that
life, once they do age out of it, without really bad stories,
you know, but it's like okay,well, it's tough.
I mean, it's very easy to makethe case of oh, I don't, I'm
(13:32):
just not going to engage in thatlife at all because it's too
hard to get fucked up on drugsand alcohol and try to manage
the outcomes.
Dan (13:40):
It can be Absolutely, yeah, right, but if you have
intentions going in, it'scertainly better than not having
intentions, right, but if youhave intentions, going in.
Charles (13:46):
It's certainly better than not having intentions,
right, yeah.
But it's also be aware that allthe best plans that you make I
mean nobody drives to the bar orthe restaurant planning to get
a DUI on the way home, right?
Everybody is like, oh, either Iwon't drink that much, or if I
do drink that much, I'll arrangefor transport safely back to my
house.
And then you get drunk anddecide that, oh no, making the
(14:10):
drive home seems like a greatidea because your ability to
make good decisions is going tobe impacted, oh for sure, when
you're hitting the alcohol andthe ecstasy.
Dan (14:17):
Yeah, I mean, even when you're hangry, if you've got you
, try to make decisions, don't.
Charles (14:22):
Don't, we're fixing your physical state, yeah going
to the grocery store when you'rehungry look at what ends up in
your cart versus after you'vehad a big meal and then you go
grocery shopping yeah, or thingsthat bother you from other
people, relationships, whateverthat's.
Dan (14:36):
I've really, as I've gotten older, realize, realized that I
need to take my time and notmake any decisions when it comes
to like feeling strong emotionsin any direction, until I've
given it some time and I canmake the decision from a less
emotional state.
And it always works out betterand most of the time I don't
even need to make decisions, butby that point things kind of
(14:58):
worked out ironically yeah, so,all right, the boys are having
all this fun.
Charles (15:03):
What's their dad up to?
Oh, my, my God, they'redefinitely opening scene.
Yes, right, I mean, yeah, therewere.
Yeah, he's fantasizing aboutsuicide and murder suicide in
this episode.
Right, and one, one point that,as I was putting together the
analysis for this is theinteresting thing, is part of
his fantasy is the being foundafter he does it.
(15:23):
Yeah, after he does it, yeah,like the, I'm going to kill
myself and then I'm going to bediscovered by my family and my
family's going to be very upsetabout it, because but I feel
like that's what's stopping himfrom doing it.
Dan (15:35):
That was at least my interpretation.
Maybe I'm reading too much intoit yeah, see, I think what's
stopping him from doing it isjust the cowardice yeah, well, I
guess the first time he gotcaught when he was really going
to do it remember his wife didon him the last episode yeah, so
yeah, I guess he was.
Yeah, he was ready to do it.
Charles (15:55):
Well, I think there's a difference between being walked
in on in the act versus beingwalked in on after you do it.
You know where One you're goingto notice.
Yeah, it's that thing.
Yeah, one you're around for andthe other one you're not.
But yeah it's.
Yeah.
I think I think there issomething to be said for I mean
people who do choose to commitsuicide in a way that their
(16:17):
loved ones will discover them.
It's.
I mean, I remember when artyfrom the howard stirred show,
when he I think it was hissecond suicide attempt where he
drank a bunch of bleach and thenstabbed himself like nine times
in the stomach and then his momfound him Dabbed himself yeah
drank what he did.
He drank bleach and then hestabbed himself and then his mom
found him and it wasinteresting.
(16:38):
The first thing I thought wasbecause when you talk about his
mom on the show, it's it wasalways about oh, how much I love
my mom, how much of a mama'sboy I am.
It's like, yeah, but I I thinkthere's an undercurrent of anger
or resentment.
If you're willing to killyourself in a way, in a violent
way like that, and your mom isgoing to discover your body,
yeah, I think that's kind of afuck you to your mom a little
(16:59):
bit.
Dan (17:00):
Oh my god, I had no idea he did that or tried to do that,
that's yeah, I mean a guy withthat kind of money.
Charles (17:05):
He could very easily rent a boat, go out to the
middle of the ocean, take abunch of sleeping pills and then
just fall off the boat, okay,so here's a question Stabbing
yourself seems like a slow andpainful way to go about doing
this.
Dan (17:18):
Is it one of those things where he really doesn't want to
do it and just wants to getcaught and wants some attention?
You think yeah, could be I mean, I feel like there's so many
easier ways to go about thatyeah, no, there are.
Charles (17:27):
There are ways to.
There are ways to kill yourselfthat are nearly 100 effective,
and drinking bleach and stabbingyourself is not one of them,
because your, your cuts aregoing to be shallow, I mean
right but like moving forwardfrom that your life, you're
gonna be fucking up your stomachLike how do you life afterwards
(17:48):
?
They found out he went straightinto surgery.
I mean, obviously they had todo a lot of work to repair the
damage that he did and pump hisstomach and all that kind of
stuff.
Yeah, but he was also I mean hewas also hitting the heroin
pretty heavy and the alcohol andhe was in rough shape.
But yeah, the whole I'm goingto do this and I'm going to get
discovered is it does it doesfeel like a final fu to your
(18:12):
family?
Dan (18:13):
I mean maybe, because I think that was this episode
where tim was talking about doyou know what kind of pressure
I'm under?
Or was that?
Charles (18:23):
maybe that's the last I think that was the last, the
last one, right before bed andhe's just like he's telling his
wife.
Dan (18:26):
He's like you know what kind of pressure I'm under, or
was that?
Maybe that's the last?
I think that was the last, thelast one right before bed.
And he's just like he's tellinghis wife.
Charles (18:29):
He's like you know what kind of fucking pressure I'm
under?
Yeah.
Dan (18:30):
Like as if she doesn't understand.
So maybe there is a littleelement of.
Charles (18:35):
Yeah, like I'm out here on my own, you need to see what
you're going to deal with Right.
Dan (18:41):
Maybe you're right.
Charles (18:42):
And so it's interesting that his the tool that he stole
to make this happen.
The gun gets stolen back.
Dan (18:48):
How weird is that the way they set that up.
They add a little mysticism inthere because Guy Tocco is in
there and then it's a chest ofprobably 20 drawers.
The first one he opens up andbasically in the nick of time
because as he's walking out ofthe compound there, Timothy
comes back.
Tim and his wife are comingback on the way back, so any if
(19:10):
he had been looking through anyof the other drawers to try to
find that thing, he probablywould've been caught.
Charles (19:12):
Yeah, that was interesting.
I thought that.
I thought I remember the drawerbeing a little bit open, but
maybe not.
I don't think so I think causethey were playing all the
Timothy.
Leave the drawer a little right.
Dan (19:19):
They played all this mystical.
They're definitely setting itup to be some sort of spiritual
like awakening or signal thatGuy Talk had.
Charles (19:27):
Yeah, yeah.
So now, seemingly, this guy'seasiest way of doing it goes
away.
So it's like, okay, he's not,he's not going to not commit
suicide with a gun because he'sworked anything out.
It's going to be.
It's just like what if the toolwent away, but the desire, I'm
sure, is still going to be thereas he continues to think about
what's going on with thisbusiness away, but the desire,
I'm sure, is still going to bethere as he continues to think
about what's going on with thisbusiness.
Dan (19:47):
So would you give guy talk credit in terms of saving his
life?
No, because I don't know that.
He didn't do it intentionally.
He didn't.
He didn't know he was going todo what he's done yeah, that's
true, I mean he.
Charles (19:57):
Yeah, in that of anything, I still don't give guy
talk a pass.
Or a gun got stolen on yourwatch.
You have no idea what kind of amass murder he was chasing a
woman, by the way and yeah, youhave no idea what level of
violence could be visited uponthis resort because the gun got
stolen and your, your move stillto keep quiet about it and not
immediately be like, hey, my gunstolen, hey, the surveillance
(20:21):
video has this guy doing it?
When you get three or four guystogether with guns to go to his
bungalow and get the gun back,yeah, I mean so.
Yeah, I feel like guy talkdefinitely let's show us maybe a
little male pride there, right,I mean, well, certainly that,
but he's also, I mean that's,yeah, his job is to turn his
back on the screw-up that hemade and make the hard decision
(20:44):
for the sake of the safety ofthe guests and the staff, and he
didn't do that.
So, yeah, yeah he the up thathe made and make the hard
decision for the sake of thesafety of the guests and the
staff.
And he didn't do that.
So yeah he the fact that hedidn't immediately announce hey,
this gun's been stolen.
We need to, we need to figureit out.
Dan (20:54):
That would have totally right, and I can see.
I can see why he did thatbecause that would have ruined
his life.
It would have been fired forsure, right, he would have lost
respect from Mook yeah, her name.
Charles (21:06):
Right, those are her name.
I don't remember what her realname is, but yeah.
Dan (21:09):
Would have lost respect from her and and probably
himself, for just another.
He already felt embarrassed forthe way he went down from the
initial attack.
Now he's going to be basicallycompletely humiliated on
multiple levels.
So I can see the pressure there.
So I could see the pressurethere.
Charles (21:27):
I can see the pressure there too, but that doesn't
excuse it, I agree.
Yeah, he did the wrong thing,and I mean him getting the gun
back the way that he didunbelievably lucky for him.
Dan (21:37):
Right, but the thing is he already knew that Tim had it.
Like he saw in the video, hehad it, so all he had to do at
that point was go okay, look,this mother took the gun.
And yes, he looks bad that it'staken, but it's not like they
have to do a pro campus widesearch for it at this point,
right.
Charles (21:56):
Yeah, yeah, it's still.
I mean he got unbelievablylucky that you know.
I mean even Timothy killinghimself would have been one of
the better case scenarios for agun being stolen.
I mean that would be bad havinga guest steal a gun and kill
himself on your watch, but yeah,but then you still, it could
have been like a mass murder.
Yeah.
Dan (22:19):
It could have been.
He steals a gun, kills hisfamily, then himself, but now
the resort has a reputation forsomebody dying right, somebody
getting killed, and that wasyour fault, because it was the
gun that you let go Right, soyeah.
Charles (22:34):
So, yeah, guy talk got lucky, but it was just luck and
I, yeah, I don't give him anycredit.
And the thing is we don't knowif Timothy he could have had
that gun for a year and stillnot been willing to pull the
trigger.
A lot of people have suicidalthoughts and ideation without
actually moving forward with it.
Dan (22:53):
yeah, and so I mean timothy could have been in that thing,
but you know, we see with theway the final two episodes on
right whether the thing was.
I think it was the last episodewhere he was right about to
press pull the trigger.
Maybe he wasn't I mean I feltlike he was in it.
Charles (23:05):
The only reason why I stopped was because he got
interrupted by his wife thereare a lot of people in pop,
maybe even listeners to our show, who get really close to doing
it without doing it, and hecould have been one of those
many people.
I don't know.
That is incredibly close, yeah,it is, but you know that there
are definitely people that getvery close on multiple occasions
and never actually do it.
He and he could be one of them.
(23:25):
So let's talk about Rick.
So Rick is still you got tothink at some level dealing with
the out, the, the fallout ofhearing his friend's monologue
from the last episode, and thenit's like, okay, now let's move
on to this caper.
Dan (23:38):
I mean that's basically.
It sounds like it was hisentire life's purpose was to
meet this guy.
So I could see him very easilyand quickly, like he doesn't
matter what Chelsea's doing,what Chelsea's doing for him or
to him or whatever.
This other guy freak, whatever,yeah, and so he's back, fixated
on it and he's going to doanything he can and, if you
remember, get this confrontationand he basically is lying to
(23:59):
everybody.
He's got the gun with him.
He told his buddy that he toldFrank, he Told his buddy that he
told Frankie wasn't going tobring the gun.
Charles (24:04):
So yeah, so he Man's on a mission, he makes up the
whole fake story with theproducer, the director, the
let's get together, we're goingto put you, put the wife in
movies and the episode just endswith him showing up at their
house for the meeting.
And yeah, he is.
It is interesting how friendlyand jovial he can be with her
(24:28):
and when he needs to get what hewants, he's able to show this
woman a fake side of himself toget what he wants out of her.
And meanwhile he can't show hisgirlfriend anything like that
fake or authentic.
That would obviously make hervery happy to be able to have
that kind of see that side ofhim.
Yeah, but it's not.
Yeah, it's not worth the effortto even fake it with his
(24:50):
girlfriend.
Where he's to get an audiencewith this guy that he wants to
confront, he's willing to dowhatever, yeah it really just
shows that how dangerous it isto live this victim mindset for
your entire life.
Dan (25:04):
That's what it sounds like when he was talking about this.
Guy needs to know what he didto me Right by removing my
father out of my life.
Charles (25:13):
Yeah, and I'll do whatever I have to do.
Dan (25:15):
I'll become whoever I have to be to get my opportunity and
the ironic part was he was alsogoing in without a plan Cause
every time somebody asked him Ithink it was Chelsea andsea and
frank was like what are yougoing to do when you get there?
I don't know it was, I don'tknow.
I just I need to tell him andthen that's it, and it's just
like well, well then, why you'rebringing the gun?
Charles (25:31):
and then, like you're basically just going to let your
emotions give you, take you fora ride at that point, like
that's what the other fiveactions, like you don't know how
this guy's going to react, andthen you're going to be subject
to just reacting to how this guychooses to interact with you
yeah, yeah, I mean, you can see,this is a setup for a disaster
(25:51):
and it's kind of like Saxon.
It's like, okay, you've got thisbig plan, but you're not
willing to actually go all theway with thinking out the
consequences of your actions.
So therefore, you're going intothis with way less power and
control than you think youactually have.
Yeah, and I mean we were havingconversations about 75 hard
last night where it's like, yeah, go into something like that
(26:12):
without a full comprehensiveplan, with just I got half plans
and half vibes and we'll seehow it works out.
Well, it's not going to workout.
Dan (26:20):
Yeah it's a lot easier to go in that way.
It's a lot easier to not thinkabout the boundaries that you're
going to put on yourself rightand think through the different
scenarios of what could happenin those scenarios, which would
dictate where you put thoseboundaries yeah, yeah, what are
all the things?
and I mean, you talked aboutthat when, if you're going out
to doing drugs or whatever, outat a party, whatever, yeah, you
basically just set yourboundaries because you're like,
(26:42):
oh, I'm gonna have somebodywatch my back because there's a
possibility that somebody couldput something in my drink or
whatever else.
I'm not gonna go chase thisother person because then how am
I gonna get home?
What are we gonna do, like?
So you're right, you'rethinking ahead of time and
putting those boundaries inplace and it sounds simple, but
there's a lot of times we justare like, oh, just, I don't have
to put the time and energy andeffort.
(27:02):
Well, it is not fun.
Charles (27:04):
I mean, you know how much time do you want to spend
planning out the fun evening ofelectronic music and drugs and
alcohol and sex?
And it's like, okay, yeah,before we do all that, let's get
together, let's open up ourspreadsheets and put together a
plan.
Nobody wants to do that, butI've created a PowerPoint and
you can see here Exactly andyeah, I understand not wanting
(27:27):
to do that or your big, your bigvendetta, getting revenge for
the guy that you know killedyour dad or whatever.
It's like, yeah, I that theperson who decides to go on that
mission is not the person whosays and now I'm going to plan
out all of the eventualities andthe details.
Because once you start planningyour vendetta, once you start
(27:47):
putting the plan into pen andpaper, you're like, oh, this is
a terrible idea, I shouldn't dothis.
And probably the same thinghappens when it comes to drugs,
alcohol and prodigious sex.
It's like, once I plan out howI'm going to have enjoy my drugs
, alcohol and consequenceriddled sex, oh wait, okay, now
that I see this in paper, maybeI shouldn't do this with my
night, maybe I should dosomething else.
Dan (28:08):
Yeah, that doesn't make you feel good, so you don't end up
doing it.
Charles (28:11):
Yeah, so it's, it's tough.
It's like the way you go aboutsurviving some of these
dangerous situations is byasking yourself hard questions
about these dangerous situations, to the level where you decide,
oh, this is too dangerous, I'mnot going to do that.
And so I mean look, I knowpeople who struggle with
relationships and therapy andit's like, okay, well, if I do
(28:31):
enough therapy, then I won't bedrawn to these kinds of people
anymore.
Well, that doesn't sound likevery much fun.
I'm already drawn to thesekinds of people.
So if I and that makes me feelgood, yeah, if I work on myself
to the point where I'm notinterested in this kind of life
anymore, then I'm not going tohave this kind of life anymore.
Dan (28:48):
Yeah, I mean, if you remember, in this episode the
Saxons go, saxons, the Ratliff'sgo to the monk, to the to
combat, and Timothy meets withthe monk and he's like he's like
why you?
He's like why you know the monkknows what he wants to ask.
He's like speechless and he'sjust like you want to know why
your daughter wants to come here.
And the monk is like saysthere's a lot of people that
(29:09):
come from your country that cometo stay here because of
spiritual malaise.
And he talks about how wealways run towards pleasure and
away from pain, but when we getto wherever we want to go,
there's only more pain becausewe're running towards the
pleasure.
And so what you're talkingabout is, yeah, we're running
towards that pleasure and thatgood feeling of what Rick was
(29:32):
doing, what Saxon's doing, right, yeah.
And you end up not realizingthat you're actually you're not
curing the root cause of thepain.
Charles (29:40):
No, it's really not.
Dan (29:41):
By running towards the pleasure, you're running away
from the problem.
You of the pain.
No, it's really not.
By running towards the pleasure, you're not.
You're running away from theproblem, you're not addressing
it Exactly and you can't outrunpain.
That was the line he said.
You can't outrun pain.
Yeah, it's like.
This guy is pretty wise.
Charles (29:51):
All right, I like this guy.
Yeah, you can't out.
You definitely can't outrunpain and you can.
The pain goes away.
Dan (30:00):
Right and by going through that pain.
That's what builds resilience,too Right.
So I think that's an importantpart, that we need to learn how
to get a little uncomfortablewith everything so that we can
be resilient and address thepain yeah.
More quickly.
Charles (30:14):
Yeah, yeah, these the shortcuts are never shortcuts,
even though they seem like theyare.
But yeah, the result that yousay you want is through the work
that you don't want to do.
Dan (30:25):
yeah, and unfortunately it always works that way that's the
best thing, though, is thestuff you don't want to do are
is usually the path forward, isthe path, is the way that you
need to go, yeah.
So if you're ever confused, notsure what to work on, whatever
you don't want to do, that'sthere you go.
There's your path in front ofyou.
Yeah, whatever you don't wantto do, that's there you go.
Charles (30:43):
There's your path in front of it, whatever you're
working hard to avoid, oh yeah,is what you should be working
hard to conquer.
Dan (30:47):
Guilty yeah.
Charles (30:48):
Same, all right.
Well, let's stop there.
We only got two episodes left,seven and eight.
And yeah, from really six,seven and eight, those three
episodes.
They just kind of accelerateand get crazier and crazier and
I'm looking forward to talkingabout seven and especially eight
.
And yeah, we'll, we'll addressit next week.
(31:08):
Thanks, dan, all right, thanks.
Thanks for listening to thisepisode of the Mindfully
Masculine podcast in itsentirety.
If you've made it this far, weappreciate you being part of the
conversation.
For full audio and videoepisodes and anything else we
feel like sharing, check outmindfullymasculinecom.
We'll be back soon to breakdown episode seven of the season
of the White Lotus, wherethings will continue to get
messier.
(31:28):
We'll see you then.
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