The White Lotus: Who's Performing, and Who's Pretending?

Dive into a compelling discussion of The White Lotus Season 3, Episode 5 as hosts Dan and Charles unpeel layers of hypocrisy, unexpected revelations, and the fascinating ways characters (and people) perform. They explore the episode's subtle genius and its uncomfortable truths about privilege, values, and human behavior.

In This Episode:

• The Unsung Role of the 'Boring' Ladies: Charles acknowledges feeling "bad for how bored I'm getting of the three ladies and their story". Dan, however, highlights their "really important" narrative function, explaining that White included them as a "normal level" to contrast with the "extreme" behaviors in the series. Dan shares how show creator Mike White's inspiration for their dynamic came from observing real-life vacationers gossiping, and Charles then states that this type of gossiping behavior "is not an exclusive behavior to ladies either".
• Full Moon Festival: A Tale of Two Reactions: The hosts contrast their perceptions of the Full Moon Festival. Charles expresses that it "looks so miserable to me" and he'd "be locked in my hotel room" if he were there. Dan, conversely, wishes his past Times Square New Year's Eve experience "was that much fun" as the festival appeared. Dan then recounts his own "nightmare" experience at Times Square as a college student, detailing issues with crowds, closed businesses, and the lack of bathrooms. Charles shares his strategic approach to crowds at Groundhog Day in Punxsutawney, Pennsylvania, prioritizing restroom access, leading to a consensus on the value of VIP experiences.
• The Ratliff Family Dynamics: A Study in Fragility:
  • Saxon's "Secret of Life": The discussion heavily focuses on the Ratliff family. Dan and Charles unpack Saxon's unsettling philosophy that "people are just waiting to be used". Dan offers a more charitable, albeit stretched, interpretation of Saxon's comment, linking it to Piper's quest for purpose at the meditation center. Charles calls this a "charitable interpretation" that is "over the top".
  • Hypocrisy and Peer Pressure: Charles highlights Saxon's hypocrisy, noting his judgmental stance on MDMA despite being a perpetual Adderall user. Both hosts share personal insights into peer pressure. Dan admits to sometimes giving in to friends' pushes despite later resentment. Charles boasts of resisting social influence, even threatening to "ruin the night for everybody else" before doing something he didn't want to do.
  • The Sibling Kiss & Family Taboos: They analyze the shocking sibling kiss between Lachlan and Saxon, noting Chloe as the instigator. Dan links this behavior to the family's awkward history with sex, describing it as "taboo" and "handled awkwardly". Charles expresses disbelief at crossing such boundaries, even under the influence of drugs.
  • Parental Values & Modeling Behavior: Charles criticizes the parents' failure to instill strong values, emphasizing that children "model what you do, not what you tell them". Dan points out that kids often model behavior from online sources, such as YouTubers.
• Timothy's Descent and Gaitok's Dilemma: The hosts delve into Timothy's alarming spiral into suicidal ideation after stealing a gun. Charles critiques Gaitok's decision to delay immediate action, viewing it as a selfish choice to protect his job over a pending emergency. They discuss the inadequacy of Victoria's attempts to comfort Timothy by highlighting his privilege, agreeing that such responses miss the point when someone is distressed.
• Rick and Frank: Over-Sharing, Empathy, and Performance: Char

Episode Transcript

Charles (00:00):
it's yeah, that that was.
That was humorous to me and andit did.
It did have me thinking abouthow, yeah, the guys who who
really love applying that alphalabel to themselves really do
seem to be the people who aremost most pro to peer press.
Welcome back to the mindfullymasculine podcast.
This is charles.
In this episode, dan and I willbe diving deep into white lotus

(00:23):
, season three, episode five.
Things are getting incrediblytense and we're exploring the
shocking displays of masculinity.
In this episode, dan and I willbe diving deep into White Lotus
, season 3, episode 5.
Things are getting incrediblytense and we're exploring the
shocking displays of masculinity, both healthy and otherwise.
We'll break down the surprisingeffects of peer pressure on
even the most alpha of men,analyze moments of profound
hypocrisy and react to thosetruly bizarre personal
revelations that only the WhiteLotus can deliver.
Join us as we unpack the layersof control, vulnerability and

(00:47):
raw human behavior in thismust-listen episode.
Stick around.

Dan (00:52):
Good morning Charles.
How are you?

Charles (00:54):
I'm well, david, how are you?
I'm also well, having a goodweek.

Dan (00:59):
Yeah, very productive week.

Charles (01:00):
Yeah, me too.
Yeah, started.
You helped me move on saturdayand it's been fairly productive.
Ever since I've been quite abit done and my my space has
recovered from the move.
Everything is back where itshould be.
Let's uh, let's jump into ourdiscussion of the white lotus
season three, episodes numberfive.

(01:21):
A lot happened in this episodea lot of the, a lot of the, and
watching this over again, I Ialmost feel bad for how bored
I'm getting of the three ladiesand their story.
I feel I feel bad and I mean totheir credit, some I've watched
some interviews by theactresses and yeah, and leslie

(01:42):
bibb, she was like yeah,compared to what else is going
on, our story was kind of boringof course, but I think having
that helps.
You see, it's a place to compareit behavior doesn't look
extreme unless you can see itnext to sort of animal behavior
exactly because most of us havehad that experience of those
ladies.

Dan (01:58):
You're on vacation, yeah, all right.
You're not maybe fightingamongst yourselves every five
seconds, whatever, but at thesame time there might be some
tension.
There's no crunching, butyou're doing what they are, are
going, right.

Charles (02:03):
You're not maybe fighting amongst yourselves
every five seconds or whatever,but at the same time.
But there might be some tension.

Dan (02:06):
But you're doing what they are going through, right, You're
not.
Most of us aren't going away togo on a meditation, to go to a
meditation center, or are goingon like luxury yachts and living
this type of life right.
So I think to have that there,it was really important for Mike
to do that so that we can go.
Okay, this is what normal levelis.

(02:27):
This is what normal life isthat still exists in this white
lotus universe.

Charles (02:31):
Yeah, yeah, I like that and it's also like I think it's
probably easy to identify withwhere a lot of people have been
on vacations with their friends,and I think those three ladies
do serve some archetypes of okay, she's the, she's the one that
has to be the star, she's theone that has to be the planner,
she's the one that is a littlejudgmental.
And, yeah, I think most friendgroups probably have some of

(02:54):
those components.

Dan (02:56):
I was watching when they do the interviews with the actors.
At the end of him, at the endof this, at the end of this
episode, they basically talk.
It was the three ladies andthey were talking about how
White came up with the idea hewas sitting around and he was
next to a table of three ladiesand when one of them would get
up, the other two would talkabout the other one.
When they would leave, and then, when she would come back and

(03:16):
the other one would leave, theother two would talk about that
girl who just left and so theythought that was, yeah, it
fitting for for these, for theseladies, yeah, and that is, that
is not.

Charles (03:26):
That is not an exclusive behavior to ladies
either.
I mean, you and I have been outand you walk away and holy shit
, the stuff I say about you yeahwell, I know man yeah, I've
heard you have.

Dan (03:39):
Yeah, because that's how it does to work when you leave.
When you leave, the guy thatjust starts talking shit about
you.

Charles (03:44):
So like you would not believe what he just said about
you I yeah, I probably wouldyeah, but that's that, that's
there's in the best casescenario.
It's not, it's not critical,it's more like, oh, he seems to
be doing okay after the breakupI thought he'd be in a lot
rougher shape, it's, it's nice,still like that, not like you
believe him, that kind of stuff.
But I'm sure, depending on whoyour friends are, it's probably

(04:07):
a mix, right?
Ideally you would like it to bethe complimentary or caring,
compassionate talk about youwhen you're not there right, and
I think that was good the waythey did that.

Dan (04:17):
They made it entertaining because they did a little that
passionate, but then it wouldslide into.
Well, she did just drink awhole bottle at once.

Charles (04:22):
Exactly.
It's like ah, okay, it's a nicemix, but yeah, and they bring a
little bit of the.
So in this episode is the fullmoon festival.
I believe it's called God.
That looks I could never.
Oh, it looks so much fun.
Oh my God, holy cow, I wouldchill myself.
It goes terrible.
I almost want to take a tripnow to go.

(04:48):
It looks so miserable to me.
Oh, I would be locked in myhotel room.
I was watching and I thoughtthis looks as bad as Times
Square on New Year's Eve.
I would never.

Dan (04:52):
Oh, I wish Times Square was that much fun.
Oh my God, have you done it?
Yeah, I was in college.

Charles (04:56):
It was a nightmare I would never do.
It is you get a high floorhotel room in times square and
you just watch it from yourwindow when you're a college
student, you really have accessto do with that.

Dan (05:11):
most of us anyway.
Yeah, they, they blocked off.
I mean probably 10 blocksaround times square at like
around the afternoon and theproblem is all the businesses,
restaurants they like, closeddown or closed their doors so
there's nowhere to go to thebathroom.
And this was I mean again, thiswas 20, 30, about 30 years ago,

(05:32):
holy cow.
So, yeah, I mean I was probably2021 at that point and yeah,
they didn't think of havingbathrooms for all the people
there.

Charles (05:41):
They might have porta-potties now because that
they might have porta pottiesnow, because I would think now
they would have like the trailerstyle where you have like five
or six?

Dan (05:47):
I would think maybe they do .
But we were standing there inthe freezing cold and of course
we brought drinks with us, right.
So there's nowhere to peeexcept right there.
So you kind of in the middle ofthe crowd, you'd basically just
kind of squat down, take a pissbecause you couldn't go where
you're gonna go like and you'restanding there.
You had to get there in theafternoon and do a little math.

(06:07):
Midnight is a few hours awayand you're staying there
freezing and everybody'sdrinking.
I know all these people arejust peeing on the street.
I just did not enjoy that at all.
And unless you get there almostin the morning, you can't even
see the ball because all thebuildings are covering where.
Where the thing that?
Yeah, so you can kind of heareverybody scream and you can see

(06:30):
the lights coming from behindthe building of the ball when
it's going down.
Like at least that's where wewere.
We couldn't actually see or welooked at like a couple of the
little shiny parts of it howmiserable it was.
You're right, it would beamazing from a high rise.

Charles (06:44):
Amazing it'd be beautiful and probably I'd
absolutely do that superexpensive, but very nice yeah
and there's no place to move.

Dan (06:49):
You couldn't.
You were like really likelocked in there so that full
moon party, I mean.
People were like moving around,right, you're like able to walk
on the street and move aroundand dance like good.

Charles (06:58):
No I wonder if they shot that during the actual full
moon festival.
Or question were those allextras?
Was that all staged for theshow?
I don't know.
Yeah, the only thing I've beento that's sort of like that was
going to see groundhog day inpunxsutawney, pennsylvania.
Okay, where I got there earlyenough, where, if I wanted to, I
could have gone very close tothe front and been like locked

(07:19):
in right to see the groundhogcome out of the thing.
But as soon as I got there Iwas like you know what, screw
this, I'm gonna lean againstthis tree.
I'm gonna be way in the back.
Where I can, I can walk to therestrooms.
I can walk to the coffee state.
They had coffee and donuts andhot chocolate and stuff, this
little snack bar.
I was like I'm gonna hang outat the back here.
Yeah, and I can.
I mean, I've got still prettygood vision.

(07:41):
I can see what's going onpretty far away and I feel like
I'm I'm still in the middle ofeverything.
I'm at, I'm at the park wherethis whole event's happening.
But if I need to go get a cupof coffee, if I need to go to
the bathroom, I don't have tosay excuse me, I can just walk
straight back there and it'slike I still felt like okay, I
am, and then at the end it's youstand in line, you get to walk
through and pose with thegroundhog and take your picture.

(08:03):
So it was great.
But I thought, man, this is, Iwould do something else like
this if I could.
As long as there's a way for meto scout out a place where I'm
there but I'm not in the middleof it, I would consider doing it
.

Dan (08:21):
So that's why you pay for the VIP.

Charles (08:23):
Yeah, exactly, yeah.
I mean even I remember evengoing going to Halloween at
Thornton Park.
It's like, yeah, I want the VIP, I'll pay $60 so I can sit on a
folding chair whenever I wantto, I can walk around, I can see
all the costumes, see all theevents, and then I go back to my
little area and sit in my chair.

Dan (08:41):
I got my phone Other than Podfest.
I think buying the VIP hasalways worked out for me.
That's true, and it's alwaysbeen valuable.

Charles (08:49):
Yeah, yeah, that's a good point, yeah, okay, so let's
talk about what these fellowsare going through.
We'll start with our friends inthe Ratliff family.
Yeah, saxon is still sayingsome real interesting stuff and
yeah, he talked about how God hewas saying stuff, about how I
think he said people, but Ithink he was mostly talking

(09:09):
about women.
He's like these people just allthey want is to just be used
yes, that was his right.

Dan (09:15):
Let me tell you a little secret in your life.
It's like people are justwaiting to be used.
Yeah, holy crap.
Meanwhile, right, it cuts tothe scene of Chloe and Chelsea
talking about Chelsea beingupset that Rick isn't responding
.
Right.
And she's like yeah, she's.
And basically Chloe's like whatdo you do?

(09:35):
Why do you care about him somuch?
Right, and she's like well, andthen and I think they're also
talking about how Chloe is, orChelsea's a romantic and doesn't
want to cheat on Rick, right.
And then Chloe's like well, mymodeling days I knew all the
girls who were romantic wereeither brokenhearted or worse.
And she's like well, what'sworse.

(09:56):
But it kind of proves Saxon'spoint is that Chelsea wants to
be used by Rick.
Rick doesn't really want to useher, but Chelsea basically
wants to fix him Like that.
She wants it to be used by rick.
Rick doesn't really want to useher, but chelsea keeps like
basically wants to fix him likethat.
She wants it to be used.
She's putting up with all his,his shitty attitude and his.
Is that and is right, yeah, butthe way saxon said it.

Charles (10:16):
Oh, it's so aggressive though it fits his character.

Dan (10:19):
It helps build his character right it's not the
right way to say it or thecharacter who he thinks he's
supposed to be.
I think I the correcttranslation came from Piper
later on, when she's talking toher parents and she's like I
want to go to this meditationcenter so I can figure out what
my purpose is.
And that's kind of.
I think what Saxon is saying ishe wants to help.

(10:40):
The secret of life is, if youhelp, people can figure out what
the purpose is then you knowit's a good thing to do.
It's a stretch, but you said itwas I mean, that is a charitable
interpretation.

Charles (10:51):
That I I think is over the top it absolutely is.

Dan (10:54):
But the point is it's like I think people are a little bit
lost and if you can help, givethem a purpose.
Not use them, but right, butgive them a purpose.
Whatever that might be, I wouldsay people want to be.

Charles (11:06):
They appreciate people want to be useful but they do
not want to be used and and justthe way that he said that was
like oof man, it is uh-huh yeah,his.
Yes, I guess let's let's getinto number one.
I thought it was very he's,very judgmental and very
anti-mdma.
Which is interesting for aperpetual adderall user to be so

(11:29):
judgmental about mdma whereit's like the hypocrisy comes
out yeah, it's just another,another nod to his hypocrisy.
Especially for people who haveeither used drugs or know about
drugs or know anything aboutdrug addiction, it's like, okay,
well, most of the ecstasy thatyou get on the street is mostly
adderall.
So for him to be simple, uppityand high and mighty about it I

(11:53):
am the drug is especially funny.
It's like looking down yournose that people use an ecstasy.
It's like you have an adderallscript so you're basically
taking ecstasy every day whenyou go to work, and I thought
that was just humorous for himto be so like, oh, I could never
, and then he ends up doing itanyway, yep, yep, which, yeah,
it's.
It's interesting to see, it'sinteresting to see the effect of

(12:16):
peer pressure on men whoconsider themselves to be so
alpha.
It's like just a little bit ofa nudge and they're so really,
yeah, they may have said it fourtimes and he's like okay, but
yeah, what did he say?

Dan (12:32):
trying to take advantage of me?
And then the girls laugh like,yeah, we'll try yeah yeah, yeah,
it's, yeah.

Charles (12:38):
That that was.
That was humorous to me and andit did.
It did have me thinking abouthow the guys who really love
applying that alpha label tothemselves really do seem to be
the people who are most pro topeer pressure.
Interesting Not to toot my ownhorn, but I've been out I don't
think ever with you, butcertainly with Rob and with

(12:59):
other friends, where somebodywas trying to get me to do
something I didn't want to doand I was like you can keep
pushing if you want to, but I'llruin the night for everybody
else before I do the thingyou're telling me to do.

Dan (13:11):
Yeah, yeah, oh, I know better, yeah, I will not do that
.
Yeah, and and I had friends whowould do that that would push
me and stuff.
And a lot of times I give inguilty, but then I didn't give
in all the way and then I wasresentful and then I wasn't in
the moment like I didn't.
It'd be like just going to abar that I didn't want to go to

(13:31):
because and and listen to a dj Ididn't want to listen to and I
would just go because everybodyelse was going and I would end
up not enjoying myself and thenkind of ruining everybody, not
ruining everybody else's time.
They were were good, but theydid their own thing, they were
happy doing their own thing.
But a lot of times I feel like,yeah, it's just, I would have
been happier just doing my ownthing, doing something different

(13:53):
, and not not presenting myselfin that negative light.
It took me a while to figurethat out.

Charles (13:58):
Yeah, it's so funny.
There are certain.
There's a certain type of girlthat I have had many
interactions with, whenever Itry to go to, whenever I tried
to go as a younger man todowntown orlando with my friends
, where if I was in a place thatI didn't want to be and it
wasn't like, oh, this is torture, it was just like, okay, I'll,
yeah, we can go.
And ever since the blackberry Ithink it was before they even

(14:23):
started calling them the curveand the bold, the old school
blackberries you could still geton the internet and sort of
play on your phone.
You get to Google, you could dostuff like that, and I would
just.
I would just do that Like I was.
I was scrolling on my phonebefore it was cool.

Dan (14:37):
Okay.

Charles (14:47):
And it's still out of friends here.
But yeah, there's a certainkind of intoxicated girl who,
like, would immediately find theguy in the group who didn't
want to be there and be like,what's wrong?
You look so sad.
It's like no, no, I'm good, I'mjust just chill and just relax
a little bit.
Just looking some stuff up,it's like you don't look like
you're having fun.
It's like and so yeah, theywould, they would decide it was
their project for me to have fun, and it's like the chelsea of
the group kind of yeah, it'slike this.

(15:09):
The end result of this is notgoing to be you making me have
fun, it's going to be me makingyou miserable she's becoming
more chelsea.

Dan (15:15):
You're becoming more re-excited.
Not a good company.

Charles (15:18):
Sorry, you like, pulled the ripcord on this right now
because you're drunk.
You should be having fun, nottalking to me yeah and yeah.
So I I don't know why I got intothat, but I, oh yeah, about the
peer pressure where, yeah, he,saxon, did not take much of a
push to right do drugs, and thenlachlan did it like he jumped
in with both feet.

(15:38):
He was like I'm gonna try this,I'm gonna see what it's like,
I'm gonna drink, I'm gonna doecstasy, I'm gonna have fun, and
he was not really open to thenegative peer pressure of his
brother.
So it was kind of interestingwhere it looked like lachlan had
more of a will to do what hewanted to do that night than his
older brother did, which is iskind of indicative of the person

(16:02):
who is curious and open toexperiences versus the person
who feels like they have to playthis character.
It's like, as soon as there's alittle bit of pressure or
discomfort, it's like, okay, I'mgonna, I'm just gonna roll over
and go with the flow, wherelockley didn't do that.
But so yeah, let's, let's talka little bit more about what

(16:24):
went on.
That was in this episode right,where they, they hooked up with
the girls, or did we see all ofthat?

Dan (16:31):
no, no, they started it.
So they were all in the bedroomand so that was right before
chelsea and chloe had theconversation about cheating on
their their old old guy, right?
And so chloe's like let's justjust bang it out, and chelsea's
like no, no, no, I, I, I don'twant to hurt rick, I'm a
romantic and that's right.

Charles (16:50):
And then rick didn't respond to her text or whatever
call or text or something well,that was actually before.

Dan (16:55):
I think that was at the party, and that's when she came
in.
She's like I'm ready to have agood time, and then that's when
they all dropped the ass.
Okay, gotcha.
So afterwards they go back tothe boat and so they're all four
sheets to the wind, or whateverright, and the four of them are
in bedroom together.

Charles (17:13):
Oh, that's right, they play the game.
They get the brothers to kisseach other.
So first the girls kiss eachother.

Dan (17:17):
Yes, and then they're like the girls signal to the guys
okay, you guys got to kiss eachother, and they do that.
She does I think it was chloedoes a little hand signal like
that, right, so the the guys,they do that.
It's a little peck on the onlips and then they back off and
the girls like what that's it?
They're a little upset aboutthat.
And then that's when locky goesin, basically for a longer,

(17:38):
deeper kiss with his brother,and the look on saxon's face
afterwards like disturbed, justlike shocked.
And then they show the girlsand then you gotta look.
If you get a chance, go backand look at chelsea's face.
After that she has the bestexpression about like what just
happened, chloe is laughing, herass is her ass off or whatever.

(18:01):
And then, and then the nextscene is lucky, taking a huge
drink of from the bottle, likealmost in victory, like yeah, I
took you down.
Because if you remember earlierin the show, when they first
started taking the ecstasy, theywere lucky and saxon were
talking and basically like he'slike, oh, I'm, I can, I can
handle this year, I'm a senior.

(18:22):
He's like, yeah, in high school, dude.
And then eventually he's likeone day I'm going to take you
down.
He said that to Fax and I thinkthat was Lockie.
When he has this real like Iaccomplished something looking
at his face after that kiss andhe's like drinking the bottle
down and it was just and clearly.
That was him saying I got you.

Charles (18:44):
Yeah, yeah, I think it's interesting.
I think there there probably issomething in that character of
okay, look, dude, you, you havegotten off on making me feel
uncomfortable my whole life andnow, now we're gonna turn the
tables, I'm gonna make you feeluncomfortable and yeah.
But yeah, it is interesting howchloe, yeah, she, she seems to

(19:07):
be into being the instigator andpushing people, making them
uncomfortable, using them forentertainment, and there you go,
yeah, and then basically doingto saxon what he said he gets
off on doing to other peoplelike she.
The point yeah, yeah, sheseemed to be she.
The point yeah, yeah, sheseemed to be.
She was the one in control ofthat night for those four.

(19:27):
Oh, for sure, she was the onerunning the show, yep.

Dan (19:30):
And yeah, she's influencing Chelsea, she's influencing
Saxon and Lockie was kind ofgoing along.

Charles (19:35):
Yeah, lockie was like the least influence, he was the
one who was doing he he wantedto do.
But yeah, and not saying thiswith any judgment, I guess, but
you're loud, I there are.
I mean, I can't imagine aquantity of drugs that would get
me to cross some of the linesthat these oh, like, no, like.

(19:58):
There's stuff that would neveroccur to me, like if I was with
girls, and they're like hey,kiss your buddy.
Like, no, like, oh, but it'llbe fun, not for me, like for who
, yeah, like, yeah, it'll, it'llbe cute for you to watch and
you can giggle at it.
But it's not gonna happen.
And I I can't.
I mean I've never taken tons andtons of drugs to the point

(20:19):
where I mean I've never, evenI've never drank enough alcohol
where I blacked out and like mymemory stopped recording or
anything like that.
I've never had that experience.
But it's with me.
It's like, okay, I had, I hadtwo drinks and I was like, okay,
I'm ready to go home and take anap.
That's enough of this.
But I can't imagine on onpsychedelics or alcohol or

(20:43):
uppers or downers or anything,the.
I feel like I've got somepretty firm walls of what
behavior I would look at asbeing fun or worth engaging in
and what I would not.
And so smooching, smooching afriend, or certainly a brother,
for the entertainment of acouple of cute girls yeah I like

(21:06):
to think that would never occurto me again.
I can't say for sure, but itjust doesn't feel like look,
yeah, I think most people thatget drunk or party or whatever
would say, yeah, there's just,there's just some stuff.
I'm not gonna, I'm not gonnaconsider 100 and and most of
them, I think, probably have apretty good handle on what those
limits are.
So the question is how doesthat happen?

(21:26):
How do you get talked into thatas these two characters?
Is it because of a traumahistory?
Is it because of weird sexualrepression in their house?
Is it because of being they're,they're just, they're both such
approval seeking people thatthey I don't know, but it's,
it's interesting to watch andit's interesting to say, oof, I

(21:49):
don't think I would ever Right,I mean that's.

Dan (21:51):
The difference is they were kind of showing their
background, their history oftheir family upbringing, where
sex was so taboo and sex was so,I think, handled awkwardly.
Handled awkwardly that, yeah,but it's, I think it lend.
It lends itself to say, and andthe way the brothers were kind

(22:11):
of interacting with each other.
When saxon was talking abouthow am I gonna masturbate with
you in the room and walk himaround naked with his brother in
the room, I feel like talkingabout how hot his sister was,
like I feel like sex was alreadya weird thing for them.
So it's not out of the realm ofpossibility that they might be
open to doing something likethat in that situation.
Whereas, like your identity isI just don't do those things,

(22:33):
like I'm not a smoker or I'm not, I don't do this for them.
That didn't exist based on whatwe knew.

Charles (22:39):
Yeah, but it's kind of weird that as a Southern US
family they're not overlyreligious, especially based on
the discussions about going tothat retreat center or whatever
for a year.
They're not overtly Christian.
The dad, timothy, mentionedbeing an altar boy, I think,
when he was younger, which isinteresting because I mean altar

(23:02):
altar boy is not exclusivelyCatholic, but typically Catholic
, which I would have.
I mean it may be.
This is a little a little bitof shortcutting on my part.
Just by listening to theaccents they were putting on, I
would have assumed SouthernBaptist or something like that
from the family.
Yeah, not, not Catholic.

Dan (23:20):
Well, she even said that when she was having the argument
with Piper and Piper was likeoh yeah, she's like it's a cult.
She's like there's a billionpeople in the religion.
She's like it could be a cultand she's like Christianity or
Catholicism is a cult withdeviant sexual behavior.

Charles (23:35):
Right.
So yeah, I guess maybe Timothy.
So I think that Jamie Timothygrew up Catholic.
She didn't.
The grew up Catholic, shedidn't, the wife didn't.
It might've it might've beennuts, what was going on?

Dan (23:44):
Yeah, yeah, cause he was singing.
If you're the the, it wasalmost like an Irish or a Gaelic
type of which they're allCatholics, right, most started
piping, right, but yeah, so,yeah, I think you're right.
I think he grew up Catholic andshe's probably a Christian, but
not that Christian, but notthat yeah.

Charles (24:04):
Yeah, it was interesting when the mom said
something to Piper about thevalues we instilled in you,
piper's response is basicallywhat values?
So, yeah, I, I don't know that.
Yeah, it doesn't seem like afamily where the conversation of
, hey son, here's, our daughterhere's, here's how you find the
strength to do the right thingwhen it's hard to do the right

(24:26):
thing.
That does not seem like the kindof conversation you know that
that family ever has with eachother, and that's that's
interesting, because I mean,that seems like one of the most
foundational conversations youwould ever have with your kids
is okay, look, you're going tobe in situations where you're
tempted to do something you knowis wrong, and here's how you
find the strength to not do that.

(24:47):
Here's where you do thedifficult thing because it's the
right thing to do.

Dan (24:51):
Yeah, I think they were trying to get that same effect
without putting in that type ofwork.
When the mom was like, hey, wegave you these values, why are
you throwing them away?
Like, why basically go intothis meditation center for a
year?
And that's when she's like,yeah, well, I don't want to be
part of all the bullshit, likeSaxon Right, like I don't, which

(25:12):
is, I guess, the privilegedlife and things like that.

Charles (25:17):
Yeah, I think, and I think that's a result of having
kids and it's really easy totell your kids how to behave.
It's a lot harder to model goodbehavior for them and I think
if anything is a epidemic inamerica, it's parents telling
their kids to do the right thingand not modeling the right
thing for them.
Yeah, and so that seems to beand people, and that really

(25:40):
crosses all the socioeconomiclines.
It it's way easier to tellsomebody how to behave than it
is to show them how to behave.

Dan (25:47):
Yeah what I've heard in the past from someone said.
Basically kids will model whatyou do, not what you tell them.

Charles (25:52):
Yeah, absolutely.
And modeling positive behavioris hard.

Dan (25:58):
I mean, you've got to change your identity, change
your daily practices, habits andif the thing about it, too, is
how many times are youcommunicating that behavior?
If you are doing it, if you'remodeling it, probably multiple
times a week, a day, a month,whatever that is, whereas if,

(26:18):
when you tell somebody something, it might be once or twice and
you're also not showing them howto do it.
So it just logically, justmakes sense that, yeah, you,
you're going to pick up thatcommunication from watching
somebody do something a lot moreeasily than if they're actually
telling you what to do.

Charles (26:34):
Yeah, yeah.
And so I think you're seeingkids come of age where they're
developing autonomy and they'redeveloping the ability to make
their own choices.
They're developing autonomy andthey're developing the ability
to make their own choices.
And you've got parents whoexpect okay, they're going to
follow the values that we toldthem that we've had.
And then it's like, okay, well,you didn't actually teach them

(26:56):
those values, you just talkedabout the values that you wanted
them to think, that you had andyou wanted them to have when
they grew up.
I mean, you didn't, you didn'treally teach them.

Dan (27:06):
so they're thinking they're going to do what they do right
and and where do most kids spendmost of the time is online,
watching people do things onyoutube or social media, so
they're going to model thesepeople right or best case
scenario with their actual, reallife friends, but it's
certainly not with their parentsbut I mean, how much time do
they spend with their real lifefriends versus on screen devices
?
So yeah, they're going to tryto.
I swear.

(27:26):
So many kids these days want togrow up and become YouTubers.

Charles (27:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's a, it's stressful
watching this family.
I mean it is, it's, it's toughseeing the choices they make.
And we'll get to Timothy rightnow, where I mean he I don't
believe he receives any externalcommunication during this
episode.
No, no, I think it's first time.
Yeah, it's all him just kind ofmulling it over in his own head

(27:51):
and and hearing that stuff,basically I'm sure
catastrophizing the situation,given the worst case scenarios
and yeah, this is.

Dan (28:02):
This is the one where it opens up and guy talk sees that
tim is the one who walked intothe oh yeah, he sees the
security.

Charles (28:11):
Yeah, that he took the, took the gun, and then it's
like, okay, well, and then hegot guy tak trying to figure out
how to respond to thissituation.
Yeah, and I think he's notmaking the best choices the
because he's trying to cover,trying to cover his own butt,
while he tries to also solve theissue, where the move would

(28:34):
probably be immediately go toyour boss and say, hey, somebody
came in and got the gun.
I know exactly who it is and wehave to do something about this
.
Yeah.

Dan (28:43):
Well, but the thing is, though, he's already kind of in
trouble.

Charles (28:46):
I get that You're going to be in a lot more trouble if
a guy steals your gun, becauseboy Guy Talk's got no reason to
think this guy might be suicidal.
All he knows is there's a guestwho stole a gun out of the
security office and I meanyou've got to assume that that
is a pending emergency.
Good point, he's going to killhis wife.
He's going to kill, right.

(29:07):
Why would you take the gun?
Yeah, exactly, I mean makingthe leap to.
Oh, he's probably just going toshoot himself.
It'll, it'll work out.
You didn't take it to targetpractice.

Dan (29:15):
Yeah, no, you don't.
The archery range is closed.

Charles (29:25):
So, you know, was another way that, yeah, guide
talk went down a notch or two inmy, in my opinion, where it's
like you're gonna, you're gonnalet this situation develop for a
minute longer than it has tobecause you're worried about
your job or your reputation.
That is, that's insane.
This is you've got.
You've got a guy who stole agun.
I mean you've got to assumethat's countdown to mass
shooting.
Yeah, if, if you're and I meanagain that's, think of, think of

(29:47):
those bodyguards that he was,so he was so willing to talk,
trash about them to his girlthat he's got a crush on you,
think they would have gone backand forth over how's the best
way to?
No, oh no, would have kickeddown the guy's door.
Basically, yeah, held him downwhile they searched the place to
find his gut, find the gun thathe stole, right, and that's

(30:07):
kind of what you got to do whenit's your job to protect people
yeah, not like I think you havesomething of mine right exactly
and he's like I don't know whatyou're talking about.

Dan (30:14):
He walks out of the bath, yeah yeah, exactly that, that
was so.

Charles (30:18):
yeah, at this point, timothy's got a gun and he is
descending into this spiral ofsuicidal ideation at the very
least.
And we even we see him gettingto the point of writing a letter
, a note, and having the gunright there, and then he gets,

(30:40):
he gets walked in Victoria walksin.

Dan (30:41):
Yeah Right, he had the gun to his head and he was about to
press the trigger.
He's about to shoot himself,like he.
He flinched to practice and Iremember she walks in right
before he actually pulls it.

Charles (30:53):
Yeah.

Dan (30:53):
And then he like shuffles all the stuff around and tries
to hide it from him yeah.
Which I mean.

Charles (31:06):
I can imagine that, that I don't know if you watch
it on hbo max, do they do anykind of a disclaimer about that?
Because, no, only for theflashing lights, interested
because I, I could see somebody,yeah, either who's had their
own struggles with suicidalthoughts or lost a family member
.
I mean the way they handle itis pretty traumatic, which it's.
It's very dramatic too, it'svery effective.
But it's also like it's kind ofupsetting to see any character
put a gun to their head.
I mean that is, and there havebeen movies like the deer hunter

(31:29):
where, like, you see somebodyactually kill themselves and
it's like, oh, that is jarring,that is, and I don't have any
real direct experience with thatmyself.
But just seeing somebody, acharacter in a movie, put a gun
to their head is is pretty,that's off-putting, that's like,
uh, there's something primalabout that, that's like that.

Dan (31:47):
I don't like that yeah, yeah, and and I think she asked
him hey, why are you up?
He's like I can't sleep andhe's like you know what kind of
pressure I'm under and kind ofreveals like all the pressure
that was building up to himactually wanting to kill himself
.
And she again, she's what areyou talking about?
You have everything.

Charles (32:06):
Yeah, and that is.
I mean, I can think of that asa.
That is a mode of comfortingpeople that I've made the
mistake of.
When somebody is having a hardtime, it's very easy to fall
into that trap of oh, let meconvince you why.
How your life is better thanthan your.
You think it is, and that isnot what people need.

(32:30):
That I mean.
What people need is for you tojust sit down and be with them
while they experience thosefeelings and just sit there and
go through it with them, not tryto talk them out of it.
And and the stakes are so, Imean, when somebody is, is that
distraught and the thing aboutkilling themselves?
That's when you know you needto be better and better at it.
So I mean, if your wife orgirlfriend's having a bad day,
she doesn't want you to talk herout of her feelings.

(32:51):
But if somebody is, you knowthat I mean and yeah, she does
not know exactly what's going onwith him and it's not her job
to read his mind.
But when you see somebody youknow behaving in ways that they
don't usually behave, thatshould be again.
If you're not addicted tolorazepam and kind of in your
own world and you know it's alot easier to see what they're

(33:13):
going through.
But he is displaying behaviorthat seems like it is very
atypical for him and people thatI mean his kids are picking up
on it a little bit at least, butshe seems to be completely
oblivious to what's going onwith him, and then when he
reveals any of it to her, sheimmediately wants to talk him
out of it.

Dan (33:33):
You shouldn't be stressed.
You've succeeded in every way.

Charles (33:35):
Yeah, I'm reminded of the too blessed to be stressed.
Oh, what an effective thing totell people Drives me crazy.
Oh, what an effective thing totell people Drives me crazy.
Okay, let's talk about Rick andhis really normal friend Frank.
Tell me if you've had thisexperience.

(33:55):
No, no, I have not.
Wait.
Next topic Wait for me to tellyou which experience it's
interesting.
Growing up in the church andbeing fairly involved in it and
then going to Bible college fortwo to three semesters.
I met a lot of people who cameto the church through different

(34:16):
ways for me religious, fairlyChristian-y, and didn't had
Christian parents and wassurrounded by Christian friends
and Christian subcultures.
And it was.
It was a very easy progressionto go from being a kid who was a
Christian to a teenager, to ayoung adult and went to Bible

(34:41):
college when I was 18, I guessand met a lot of people like me
that grew up in the church.
And then I also met quite a fewpeople who were non-traditional
students who basically had likea conversion to Christianity
later in life after they had hitsome rock bottoms, and met a

(35:14):
few guys who gave up theiraddictions to sex, drugs,
alcohol, rock and roll, pettycrime all the reasons to live
life.
Yeah, okay, and foundthemselves in bible college
looking to become ministers andthere were quite a few of them
that that's what the biblecollege is for it's.

Dan (35:28):
If you're getting no, I'm not, you wouldn't go, unless you
want to become a minister.
Is that correct?
Or would you go for?

Charles (35:35):
no, the very the small ones, like the one I went to,
like the, I believe the onlydegree offered was Bible Okay,
and they had different.
You could have an emphasis inChristian counseling or an
emphasis in youth ministry, butthis is if you're going to make
this part of your.
Yeah, like you're working in achurch or a church's school or

(35:59):
you're looking for a career thatis, at the very least, church
adjacent.
You're not.
Yeah, it's not a Christiancollege that also offers
accounting degrees.
At least, the one I went to wasnot like that it was.
It was like you're.
You're going there because youeither want to marry a preacher
or become a preacher of someform.
Okay and so, but I met someguys there who, so some way, you

(36:20):
thought you were going to be apreacher yeah, yeah, I yeah.

Dan (36:23):
You neglected to mention that.
Okay, I had to put the mathtogether there.
I never thought about it.

Charles (36:27):
It didn't take long for me to be disabused of that
notion.
Okay Now, the first year that Iwent there was the first year
that they were accredited bySACS, the Southern Association
of Colleges and Schools, whichmeant credits that I got there
would transfer to state schools,community colleges, things like

(36:51):
that.
The year before I went theywere not accredited, so Valencia
Community College wouldn'treally care what you got from
that Florida Christian College,because they didn't see it as a
real college.

Dan (36:59):
Now, did that matter to you at all?

Charles (37:00):
Yeah, I only went because it was accredited, so
that if I decided I wanted topursue something else I wouldn't
waste my time and money so youalready were coming into that,
yes, kind of hedging your like.
I think I want to do this, butI'm not sure I want to do this.
So, hey, I can't, I can't, Ican't go someplace where I want
to, where I might be wasting mytime yep, same thing for me,
geology, I think.

Dan (37:20):
so most of us were like, yeah, we think, we think we want
to do this and then, once youstart doing it, you're like, eh,
me and I, yeah.

Charles (37:25):
So anyway, to get back to it, there were guys that
traded their previous addictionsfor drugs, alcohol, petty crime
, being a bad dude.
Their new addiction was talkingabout their former life and how
much better they are now thanthey were back then.
And when I watched Frank andRick have this discussion, that

(37:53):
is what I was reminded of, andI've seen a little bit of that
with with my exposure to like 12step recovery groups.
There there are some peoplethat are there to do the work
and there are some people thatare there to talk about
themselves and basically get acaptive audience.
Where I can, I'm in this roomand people have to listen to me,
so I'm going to take advantageof it.
And so that was the feeling Igot from Frank when he was

(38:13):
talking about himself and hisjourney.
It was more of because it was ait's.
It's weird, Some people feeltempted to over disclose and
talk about things with peoplewho are not ready to hear the
things you want to reveal andare not interested in hearing
the things you want to reveal,but you kind of steamroll over

(38:35):
them to reveal your truth tothem anyway, and I felt like
that is what Rick was goingthrough, when Frank it's like
this is not.
Frank is sharing this becausehe feels like he wants to or
needs to, not because Rick needsto hear it.

(38:55):
There, there was it.
It felt selfish to me.
Yeah, I think it was aninteresting story but, just like
you're, you're putting somebodyelse through this without
asking them if they're ready,like not preparing them that
they may hear some shockingthings, and it felt like an
inherently selfish act onFrank's part to dump all this

(39:16):
stuff on.

Dan (39:16):
Ray, been guilty of doing something similar where I've
talked about it, and more so,and it is a little bit of a
selfish act in terms of tryingto reconvince or keep convincing
yourself that this is the bestcourse of action for you at that

(39:36):
point, definitely, and it'sless about the other person and
more about you trying to talkyourself into it again.

Charles (39:41):
Yeah, or remind yourself yeah, so let's get into
it.
So yeah, I got the impressionthat frank and rick had engaged
in some capers together goodword or hijinks, uh-huh, the
result of which led frank tohave to flee the united states
and live abroad where there's noextradition treaty.
So I I, yeah, I got theimpression that he's in some

(40:02):
kind of legal trouble, or atleast a complicated legal
situation.
That's why he's in Thailand andhe talks about getting there
and having what I guess youwould call a fetish for Asian
women.

Dan (40:15):
And no job and a lot of free time and some money.

Charles (40:18):
Yes, he seemed to, yeah , seemed to know no commitments,
no, nothing tying him down asfar as, seemingly, work or
family.
He, he was there and he coulddo what he wanted to do, and,
and what he wanted to do wasparty and have sex with asian
girls.
And so he then gets intorevealing that that, over time,

(40:39):
started to feel like an emptypursuit, which I can understand,
that, yeah, but then that ledto him exploring some other
options that were a littleharder to identify with, which
is is one of the things I I'vetalked about on this podcast
before and, and I've said before, for some reason, the concept
of privilege can sort of setpeople off like, oh, I feel like

(41:02):
if you talk about me havingprivilege, that makes me feel
like you're attacking me oryou're you're devaluing the
adversity that I've.
Yeah, it's like okay, buthere's the thing my, my, my
status as a straight white dudehas never made my life harder.
I've never felt like, oh, thisbad thing wouldn't be happening

(41:24):
to me if I wasn't a straightwhite guy, and part of what I
felt when I was hearing Frank'sstory was, like, man, I'm so
lucky that I've never feltconfused in that way where I've
had to go on this journey ofexperimentation to try to get
down to the bottom of why I wasdoing the things.
And maybe it was fun for him,maybe it was cathartic for him,
but God, it felt verycomplicated and very like.

(41:48):
I'm just glad I've never I'venever had those kinds of deep
questions about my identitywhere I felt like, okay, I've
got to go through and do somedeep experimentation to really
feel what it is that I'm comingfrom and I I feel like that's
lucky on my part.
Yeah, I don't feel like it'sbetter that I haven't had to go
through that, but I do feel like, okay, I some die.
Some dice were rolled on mybehalf before I existed and

(42:11):
those dice came up to saycharles is never gonna have to
right, see if he needs topretend to be an asian girl to
experience what that's like.
Yeah, and it was just like manthat like I hope for.
I mean, obviously he's afictional character, so I don't
care about him.
But for the people in real lifewho've had to go through
something like that, I haveempathy for them.
Yeah, because it feels like areally complicated, troubling

(42:36):
thing to experience, to be likeI'm not sure why I'm doing these
things and I want to get to thebottom of it.
So now I'm going to engage inclearly risky behavior.
I mean I'm not.
I'm not okay calling what he didmorally wrong because, as long
as he was doing it with peoplethat were appropriate age and
mentally able to consent to it,have fun, do whatever you want
to do, I don't care.

(42:56):
Yeah, but certainly riskybehavior I mean when you're,
when you're paying people forsex or paying people to have sex
with you.
I mean that's when things canget a little squirrely, sure?
So, yeah, I I feel like, wow,what, what an experience he went
through.
And, yeah, just dumping it onrick, it's like rick's got

(43:16):
enough problems, he doesn't need, you know, things like this
dumped on him without some sortof a heads up of hey, I've had
kind of an unconventionalexperience the last few years
and I'd like to tell you aboutit so you can sort of see where
I'm.
I'm coming from.
Are you, are you up for that?
Well, that seems like the kindof thing you would say, right,
well.

Dan (43:33):
so I think frank took the opportunity when he ordered the
chamomile tea and rick chamomiletea and at that point, yeah,
there's like a charting board.

Charles (43:41):
Yeah.

Dan (43:41):
Rick was like oh well let me tell you and obviously like
you don't need to go there Well,he started out having sober for
10 months and then it proceedsto just he just kind of goes and
goes and goes.

Charles (43:53):
Here's my story, yeah, my conversion to Buddhism.
Story Right, story right, andthat focuses much heavily on my
private sex life.
Yeah, and, and me doing thingsthat I mean, he's got to know
rick well enough to be like,okay, rick, there's a good
chance rick is not going toidentify or understand this, so
maybe giving him a heads up ofwhere this conversation is going

(44:14):
to go would be the kind thingto do.
Yeah, and, but again, I feellike it's, it's.
It's easy to trade one form ofselfishness for another, and you
can be sober and you could becelibate and still be a selfish
person who gets off on, yeah,weird things like sharing these

(44:34):
personal conversations withpeople in public.
And, yeah, and the actorsinvolved did a great job of
selling how weird of a of athing they were both
experiencing during thisconversation.
And, yeah, sam rockwell wasamazing and walton goggins, I
mean just like.
Yeah, every I told you thismorning every reaction shot that

(44:55):
they switched to him.
His mouth just got more andmore open as he was hearing more
and more stuff.

Dan (45:01):
Yeah, and I think he did a great job of representing what
most people would be feeling inthat situation watching that
scene.
So if we were Rick sitting herelistening to what Frank was
saying, I think our facialexpressions would be right on
par with with how rick wasreacting and, to rick's credit,

(45:22):
he was not reacting with offenseor disgust or judgment.

Charles (45:26):
it was just like, okay, you're throwing me some
curveballs here and I correct,yeah, I cannot identify with
what you're talking about orwhat you're going through, but
I'm also not going to be like,ew, gross, how dare you?
What's wrong with you?
And he was like that it was, itwas, it was easy.
He really stunned the shock andnot the, which I feel like I'd

(45:48):
like to think I would.
I would behave the same way I.
Actually, I'd like to thinkthat I would be less shocked if
I heard you know a friendtelling me a friend I hadn't
been in contact with tell me thestory.
Yeah, like I, I'd like to thinkI could come at it with
curiosity, like, okay, you'resharing something with me that I
can't identify with.
I want to learn more about whatyour experience was.
But you know, if I was on somesort of a vengeance vendetta

(46:10):
that I was in the middle ofgetting ready to ask you to help
me with, maybe I wouldn'treally be on top of of being the
most curious and empathetic.

Dan (46:17):
Yeah, I think part of the reason why Rick was able to be
that way is, like you said, hewas friends with Frank for a
long time at that point.
Yeah, and so if somebody hadn'tseen in a while and clearly
like Rick almost was like warmand welcoming, like the first
time we really saw him, yeah, helit up, would he Frank?

Charles (46:32):
or Frank more than Chelsea, but by a lot Exactly
Now.
Is that because he was countingon frank being able to, like
chelsea was an obstacle togetting this business closed?
Maybe where frank was, yeah, anaccomplice?

Dan (46:45):
I don't know but I don't think he was thinking of him as
an accomplice.
At that point I feel like hereally legitimately said hey,
it's good to see you, man, andthere was, there, was, there was
more there that I just want touse you to to serve my needs.
There I really felt.
Felt that way from Rick'sperformance, or Walter's
performance as Rick.

Charles (47:02):
I felt I don't know.
I felt like there was a lot ofokay.
Finally, I've got a touchstoneto my past.
This is a guy who's going to beable to help me put this issue
to bed.
I feel like there was a lot ofthat too.

Dan (47:12):
It could have been.
It could have been sure, but Imean yeah, but he was friendlier
than we've ever seen himthroughout the entire series
Exactly.

Charles (47:20):
Yeah, and that was.
It was interesting seeing him alittle bit lighter and a little
bit more.

Dan (47:25):
Yeah.

Charles (47:26):
But then Frank took it away from him.

Dan (47:28):
Right, but, like you said, I think that made it a little
bit easier for him to be open towhat Frank was saying, as
shocking as it was, whereas somany other times when rick was
engaging with strangers, like onthe boat with the rat lifts and
then on the yacht and justbasically where he was just a
complete asshole to thesestrangers and they were being

(47:50):
friendly to him.
So I think he definitely wouldhave been very judgmental and
very disgusted if he didn't knowfrank at all from like a hole
in the wall and some random guy,some drunk in a bar, starts
right, that's true telling himthe same thing, he'd be like
what the fuck?

Charles (48:05):
yeah, yeah, exactly.
So I think yeah, yeah, but I, Ithink he, yeah, he did handle
it, similar to how I would haveliked to have handled it if I
was in that situation again.
I I would have liked to not hadmy mouth just gaped open the
whole time, and not but Iprobably wasn't a judgmental

(48:25):
game, agreed, it was offensively.
And his.
It was judgmental.
He was like really, he saidreally, a couple of times I
think I would have probably beena little more direct and been
like if you start a conversationwith me like that, I would at
some point very early on I'd belike okay, are you?
Are you bullshitting me rightnow?
Are we having a seriousconversation?
Yeah, and I'd want to say in away that I was open to either

(48:48):
one of them and but it wouldalso be like hey, I'm sending
the message that you're tellingme some stuff that's.
That's pretty outside of whatyou and I have ever talked about
in our friendship.
Yeah, so I just want to makesure that we're on the same page
here.
Either you're screwing with me,and that's fine, or you're
telling me something serious,and that's fine too.

Dan (49:06):
I think Rockwell did an amazing job of maintaining the
proper expression on his facewhen he was telling Rick these
things, like he was almost likezoned off into his own world If
you look at his eyes and hisface go back and watch that
she's experiencing it right thenand there.
That's why it was such anamazing scene.

Charles (49:25):
Yeah, for me, and it was so surprising.
It came out of nowhere and Iwatched that episode.
I want to say the Mondaymorning, like early Monday.
That's what I usually wouldwatch Any of the big shows that
come out on Sunday night.
I don't stay up and watch themSunday night, I watch them
Monday morning.
And yeah, the internet wasgoing pretty crazy about
Rockwell's monologue.
Oh, I didn't know you weregoing to say that.

(49:46):
Oh, yeah, it was like peoplewere like, wow, that is, that
was something and yeah, it wasdefinitely interesting to watch.
Yeah, I do wonder again, I'malways skeptical, like okay, I
do wonder again, I'm I'm alwaysskeptical, like okay, how much
of that was?
Was there an unhealthy needthat Frank was trying to meet by

(50:06):
burying his soul to Rick, orwas it really just hey, we're
two friends, we're catching up?
I've I've had thistransformational experience and
I want to share it with youbecause we're friends.
And again, maybe, maybe it'sbecause I'm a bit of a cynic I I
felt it and, and because ofsome experiences I've had, I
felt like it was more of a hey,this is, I want this opportunity

(50:29):
for performance and even alittle bit this opportunity of
control of I'm going to, I'mgoing to drop these bombs on you
and I'm going to feel importantand in control of the dynamic
by could be by dropping thisstuff.
Yeah and yeah, that and again.
That could be all me readinginto it, but it might be worth
looking into seeing if, ifRockwell or Mike White gave some

(50:51):
interviews about that and seewhat they say.

Dan (50:53):
Oh, I'd love to hear some of that.

Charles (50:54):
Yeah, I'd like to hear, yeah, I'd love to hear with Sam
Rockwell, like how he attackedthat performance, like how he
came into it and how he decidedto what level of direction he
got from from Mike White, or ifhe kind of just how much was
written?

Dan (51:08):
Was any of it?

Charles (51:08):
improvised, exactly, holy cow, that would be
interesting too.
So I may do a little bit ofresearch after after we record
this, to see what's out thereabout that.
Yeah, tell me now.
Last thing I wanted to say wasman, valentin and his friends
just got, I feel like I would beso annoyed, like I do not want
I would turn around and leave ifI, if I was in a, in a small
group where those guys were init, just like everything about

(51:30):
them felt annoying to me.

Dan (51:33):
I, I, I for me as well.

Charles (51:34):
Just everything was so performative and it's like, okay
, guys, we're on.
This is yeah, so performativeand it's like, okay, guys, we're
on.
This is yeah.
It just felt like it was somesort of an improv crew, just
like trying to put on aperformance of just three
russian dudes hanging out inthailand, and this is what we're
supposed to act like.
And not to say it was poorlywritten I don't think that it
was, but I think I think those.
I think that those guys existand and they would annoy me in

(51:58):
real life, yeah, if I had tohang out with them, right?
But thankfully they weren'tlooking to hang out with dudes
like me, they were looking tohang out with those three chicks
.
And, good, the girls seem to behaving fun, at least for most of
it uh-huh until the, thegirlfriend or whatever showed up
and started the fight and we'reall like, okay, I think we need
to go.

Dan (52:14):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, the the big takeaway if you look at the
girlfriend, or, and and thegroup of girls, they look almost
exactly the very similarlooking three of them just
Russian versions of them.
But like the way they weredressed, their haircuts, a lot
of the facial structures lookedvery similar.
It was, it was.
It was probably purposely donethat way, I'm sure.

Charles (52:35):
Yeah, that's, that's interesting.

Dan (52:52):
But yeah, those, those guys did not just felt exhausting.
I could not imagine beingaround dudes like that to be
able to hang out with.
So, yes, they were a little bitannoying, but that's kind of
what happens, right, thesearen't like your long-term
friends that you grew up with orwhatever that you get to pick
and choose.
It's like, oh, you're willingto go out and hang out and
you're, you've got some goodqualities, all right, I'll kind
of, I'll kind of deal with it,right, that is and I'll make the

(53:13):
book.

Charles (53:13):
That is insane and it drives.

Dan (53:15):
And then it drives the urge to consume more drugs and
alcohol to be able to deal withthe situation also.

Charles (53:21):
So just letting you know it's happened to me the
idea of talking to strangerswhile on vacation.
It just blows my mind.

Dan (53:31):
Well, that's where the substances come in.

Charles (53:34):
I guess Kind of they help loosen up.
That's a good reason for me tonot take any drugs when I'm on
vacation.
I might end up talking topeople.

Dan (53:41):
Yeah, is that in the book that you're about to read?

Charles (53:44):
Yeah yeah, it's a short book.
I mean I can't imagine.
I mean I don't think on any ofthe solo trips that I do.
It's hard for me to think ofany person I talk to on any of
them that's not paid to talk tome.

Dan (54:02):
I thought you said you didn't buy prostitutes.
What?

Charles (54:05):
No, I mean, I'm talking to cashiers, I'm talking to
servers, I'm talking to Uberdrivers.
I'm not.
I am not talking to anybody forfree and they're not talking to
me for free, and I can'timagine me enjoying it anymore
If I was.
I mean, maybe I, I don't know.
Man, it's hard.
Am I an extrovert or not?
It's tough to it's tough.

Dan (54:26):
There's also a different dynamic.
If you are I don't know ifyou've gone out like on a
vacation and trip with like agroup of people or a group of
friends or whatever, and donelike an excursion, like a or
like an overnight, a couple of,a couple nights, whatever, where
it's just about partying andhaving a good time, and and
there's a group of peoplebetween social pressure, being

(54:46):
in a new place, looking toexplore things, and I.

Charles (54:49):
This is all when I was much younger, obviously, but
that dynamic isn't very far fromwhat actually happens hmm, I
mean, I've gone to vegas withwith my buddies before, but,
okay, all right, you know when,when it's time to go to ghost
bar or something like that, it'slike you guys are giving up
premium tourist poker time.

(55:10):
We could be right, money from,yeah, dumb kids from california
and you want to go to a club?
No, I'll be at the poker tableand yeah, so I, yeah, I don't
know.
I guess I'm built differentthan certainly the kind of
people that they makeresort-based television dramas
about.
Right, I mean, I would not beentertaining on White Lose
because I'm.
I'm sitting in my room, I'msitting at the pool, I'm sitting

(55:32):
at the beach reading the bookor talking with the person that
I went with.
I'm not plotting on getting theguy that you know, my father.
Yeah, I'm not letting snakesloose.
I'm not talking about the twoyears I thought I was an asian
girl.
I'm not doing any of thosethings lots.
I'm not going to the full moonfestival.
Um, yeah, I, I am builtdifferent from, and that's why

(55:55):
they don't make.
They don't make tv shows aboutmy life.
Okay, that's fine.
Yeah, that's the way I like it.
If there's a tv show about yourlife, okay, that's fine.
Yeah, that's why I like it.
If there's a tv show about yourlife, there's probably there's
probably there's probably areason, there's probably
consequences and so, yeah, thekind of vacations I go on,
they're not making tv showsabout.
And let's knock on wood, keep itthat way all right, so next

(56:15):
week we'll talk about episodenumber six.
I can't believe there were onlyeight episodes but so much
happens in each one yeah,especially the last one, and
they, they wrap up.
There's so many things going on.
It's like how are they going towrap all this up?
And they do, and yeah, but sixand seven are also great
episodes, so we'll.
We'll talk about those nexttime.
I think we went a little bitlonger than usual, but good

(56:37):
stuff.
I will chat with you next weekon episode six, dan.

Dan (56:41):
Sounds good man.

Charles (56:41):
Bye, bye-bye.
Thank you for listening to thisepisode of the Mindfully
Masculine Podcast.
We covered a lot of ground inthe White Lotus season three,
episode five, from confrontinguncomfortable truths about
masculinity to shocking personalrevelations.
Next week, things only get moreintense.
As we dive into episode six.
We'll delve into how thealready high tensions between
the brothers reach a disturbingnew level and another male

(57:04):
character faces a darkescalation in his internal
struggles.
You won't want to miss ourbreakdown of these compelling
and unsettling new developments.
Tune in next time.