June 18, 2025 • 32 mins
In this episode, Elena Apalkova speaks with Matt Ley about his journey to fulfillment and the concept of fulfillment ROI. They delve into the Ikigai formula, emphasizing the importance of delegating tasks, forming partnerships, and distinguishing progress from mere activity. The conversation explores marrying passion with profitability, defining success, and strategies for rebalancing life. Matt shares insights on aligning financial goals with personal values through self-awareness and essential management skills for both personal and business growth. They discuss the Working Genius model for enhancing team dynamics and conclude with ways to connect with Matt Ley.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
Hello.
Hello.
Welcome to mindset to results.
Today, our guest is Matt Le, and, he's aspecialist in bridging gap between people,
processes, and purpose.
He also is the author of the book, manage yourgaps, and cofounder of InflationPoint Nexus
(00:26):
Advisors.
Hi, Matt.
Hey, Elena.
It's good to be here.
Yeah.
Great to meet you.
Thank you for being at our podcast and, sharingyour passion and knowledge with our audience.
We will speak today about the very importanttopic, how to live with fulfillment.
(00:48):
And if you don't live with fulfillment, how togain it, how rebalance your life.
And before we start learning about howrebalance from you, I would like to ask you to
tell us a little bit about yourself.
How did you come for your fulfillment?
(01:11):
How it started?
How did you find your patient?
Yeah.
It's a great question.
So, one, I've I've moved a lot.
So I've I've had 22 addresses in forty fouryears, and so I've always had to learn what's
going on in group dynamics, like, what's goingon in these new environments.
And so I've been always paying a lot ofattention to that and sort of started as a
(01:35):
survival skill.
And then I realized I was good at it and that Iactually enjoyed it.
And so for me, what I was looking at withinthis is, like, where are the gaps?
Where are people not finding this concept offulfillment?
Because I found that that was a big driver forme.
It was what is it that drives these people tofind joy in the work that they do, the lives
(01:58):
that they have?
And for a long time, I was like, well, that'ssuch a such a personal journey.
How could you ever help people find their ownpersonal fulfillment?
How could you support someone on that withoutreally getting to know them deeply?
And while I still feel like that's how you helpthem on the journey, helping to outline what
does the journey look like, I found thatthere's actually a structure to it in the sense
(02:19):
of what I call fulfillment ROI is that theenergy we invest in something and the value
produce that that produces for us, thatexchange, if that's a positive return, that's a
fulfilling experience.
And so what I was finding as I was working withpeople both as a coach and just growing up in
life and then as a consultant is if we couldwork to reduce the amount of energy it took to
(02:43):
get things done and really get clear on thevalue propositions, then we could help people
get out of that sense of unfulfillment and tostart feeling energized again with very few
tweaks in their perspective or in the work thatthey were doing.
And for me, that was finding that enough.
I'm not wired for a nine to five.
(03:03):
I I'm an ebb and flow energy person.
I am really good at making chaos into order,but I'm terrible at maintaining that order.
And I love finding people in the creativespaces and designing, and then maintaining was
not it for me.
And so it was just learning in the course ofthings getting done, where do I show up and
(03:27):
shine, and where do I find my bulb gettingdimmed?
And just owning that and saying, look, that's agift because I bring to the table things that
for other people might be where their bulbsdim.
And the things where my bulb dims actually issomeone else's joy.
And so it was an opportunity me for me torealize I don't have to do everything.
And in fact, trying to do everything is what'scausing me to feel unfulfilled.
(03:51):
Helping other people recognize where they shineand where they need to partner is a lot of the
work that I do both with individuals andorganizations.
And then last piece, just for me, fulfillmentis my kids.
Like, that that's what drives me.
It's like, I've got three littles, 12, nine,and seven at home and with my wife.
Watching them grow up is the most fascinatingand enjoyable thing that I do on a daily basis.
(04:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Of course.
Of course.
It's so good to see how children grow, and, wecan give them so much, yes, to be successful.
And, yes.
So what you just said about fulfillment is thatfinding yourself and do what you really love to
(04:42):
do and what is your strength will help tominimize energy we spend.
Yes.
Because when we do something that we havestrength, what is our, genius and, something
that we love to do, it means that we do itnaturally as it is on the flow, and we enjoy
(05:02):
this process.
And, that is why it is so important to reallydo what you are good at.
And vice versa, If people do something thatthey're not good at, this is how they spend a
lot of energy, and they don't get satisfactionif they don't don't enjoy what they do.
(05:24):
So finding of what you love and what you'restrong is that part of the process to find and
create that fulfillment in life.
Yeah.
No.
I absolutely agree.
It it reminds me of a it's it's not trueIkigai, but there's the Ikigai formula, which
is the sort of it's like a big Venn diagram ofwhat are you good at, what do you love doing,
(05:50):
what does the world need, and what can you getpaid for.
And it's figuring out what fits into thosepieces that is what you should be looking for
to sustain and find that fulfillment.
The the part that I would I bring up a lot oftimes with clients is I love that we're getting
clear on language.
It's the fact that there's a difference betweena strength and a joy.
(06:12):
And a lot of times, we build competencies inspaces that don't actually bring us joy.
And so people say, oh, you're really good atthat.
And so they continue to give us that type ofactivity, that type of work.
And that's what Gay Hendrix in his book, TheBig Leap, would call a zone of excellence.
But to get out of your zone of excellence isthe big leap to get into your zone of joy is
(06:33):
recognizing that you need that other portion ofthe diagram.
You need that what do you love to do.
And sometimes the things we love to do, wedon't invest as much energy in because we're
like, oh, well, I'm never gonna get paid forthat, or people don't really need that or it's
too much fun.
I can't really be work because I'm enjoyingthat too much.
And so we lean into our strengths, thecompetencies, the things that we're good at,
(06:56):
not the things that we find joy in.
And recognizing that if we would take that leapand start building out the things that bring us
joy, because they bring us joy, we're going toquickly turn those into competencies and
strengths.
And it's that scary initial step that's where alot of people get stuck.
And so especially when you're starting a newbusiness, you gotta do everything.
(07:18):
Like, you've got all the hats on.
And as you start to grow and boom, all of asudden you find success, figuring out where it
is that you find joy versus where itnecessarily you have competency.
It's a lot of work I do with people in thestartup and entrepreneurial space, is how to
learn what to let go of.
I actually have a whole process I go calledwhat's your deal that walks through that, to
(07:41):
basically say helping people understand whatyou need to delegate, eliminate, automate, and
lead.
So the d e a and l of leadership.
And helping the people understand how to dothat is it's amazing watching people go through
that.
It's a huge weight lifted off their shoulders,and all of a sudden, they're finding that joy
(08:02):
again in the work that they're doing becausethey're just taking that conscious step.
Because if you're doing everything, the onlyguarantee I can give you is you're gonna burn
out because there's going to be something inthere that does not bring you joy at a level
that will sustain you.
And figuring out how to let go of that andpartner with someone who does find joy there is
one of the next steps in finding continuedsuccess in a small business or entrepreneurial
(08:26):
endeavor.
Mhmm.
Yeah.
So build the team and find people who cancomplete you.
Yes.
Like, complete you who love something and arestrong in something that you are not.
So everyone can focus on their strength andwhat they love to do.
And this is how people will be in very greatstate because they enjoy what they do, and they
(08:52):
will spend more energy, and they will createthat flow that everyone is excited.
And, of course, it also should be connectedwith big purpose.
Everyone should understand that they are doingsomething valuable, that it is has a big
purpose, and this also contribute to their,feeling good.
(09:14):
Yes.
Feeling good knowing that you are doingsomething important.
I and I total a 100% agree.
Like, actually, I I do, especially in a when Ido facilitations, work with, people that say
that there's a difference that we need to beclear on it between progress and activity.
And a lot of times, we get busy with activity,and we see tasks, and we get them done.
(09:37):
It was like, you can spend a lot of energyrunning in circles, and that's not gonna make
much progress.
What we need to do, just like you said, is giveeveryone on the same page.
Progress is actually a three step process oforientation, activation, and sustained
momentum.
And orientation is all about, like you said,what are we here for?
What's our purpose?
Let's get clear on that so that we can makeprogress.
(10:00):
Then the activities is what we need to do, butthat stepping into your joy and partnering well
is how you sustain that momentum so that youcontinue to make progress.
And I would say even for small businesses,there's so many hats to wear on entrepreneurial
individuals.
When you start to partner, it's less lookingfor, oh, well, I need to start doing sales.
(10:20):
I gotta find someone who does sales.
Or, like, oh, we're gonna start doing morefacilitations.
We gotta find people that do facilitations, orI need more IT.
Whatever it is as a task set, look more forthose energy profiles.
And, Patrick Lancione came up with a reallygreat assessment tool, I think, four years ago.
It was just during COVID called working genius,which is exactly set up to figure that out.
(10:43):
It looks at the six phases of things gettingdone.
Where do you find joy?
Where are you like, it's a they call it acompetency, and where do you find frustration,
which is an energy draining space.
If you can partner to cover all six of thosepieces with the people you work with, you're
gonna be able to get all the work done at alevel of joy or competency for everyone in the
(11:05):
group.
So it's less about the particular skill sets.
It's more about the energy profiles as you'restarting to partner with people would be a
recommendation I have.
Yes.
And another thing that you said that alsoresonated with me so much that you don't need
to choose between doing what you love andmaking money.
(11:26):
Because for some people, they have awe or theyhave or they make money, they think and when
they focus on money or they think that I havehobby.
So when I make money, then I will do what Ilike to do.
So instead of putting it together, it can beend end.
(11:48):
It can be focused on what you love to do.
And when you focus on that, you becomeprofessional because this is you have natural
advantage in comparison with other people.
And when you do that and focus on creatingvalue, money will come as a result because
(12:08):
money always is equivalent of the value weprovide.
Mhmm.
Yeah.
A 100% agree that, like, money is just a means.
It's not an act.
It's just a value conversion.
That's the easiest sort of we all agree on it.
I mean, it money is just a a social constructbased on our own understanding of, like, value.
(12:29):
And so figuring out what we find joy in andcontinuing to develop that, like so that's what
I love about the the Ichigoi Venn diagram isthat it also has that pillar about what the
world needs, which is another way of sayingwhat are people capable of, like and also what
what people can pay you for.
So there might be some hobbies out there wheresomeone's like, oh, I just I I I love painting,
(12:52):
miniature figurines.
Like, who's ever gonna pay for that?
Well, one, we have a huge gig economy with theInternet and everything.
If you really cared about that, putting sometime into finding where that niche exists that
people want to buy painted figurines forwhatever purpose they want those for, you, one,
can look for it.
And two, say, if I can't find a market, what isit about this that I really like?
(13:17):
What is it?
Is it the methodical getting to createsomething that's detail oriented that I can
physically see after it's done?
If that if you can name the aspects of thething that brings you joy, then start saying
what other things that people get paid for havea profile similar to this.
And even if you have to come in at a lowerlevel, the fact that you love the work that
(13:40):
you're doing, one, it's not gonna feel likework, and two, you're gonna get good at it
really quickly because you're not just gonnagive the minimum.
You're gonna give your maximum because you'regetting fed by the thing that you're doing.
So your growth, like, trajectory is gonna bemuch more of that hockey stick versus that
linear slow growth.
And so, oh, I don't wanna leave my high payingjob that makes me miserable so that I have to
(14:05):
take vacations and I have no nothing in my cup.
What again, it's like money is an exchange.
You're exchanging all your value for somethingthat doesn't sustain you, that doesn't bring
you purpose, doesn't bring you fulfillment.
And why?
Like, why what what have we told ourselves gotus into this place that we say we have to do
(14:26):
this?
And getting to stop on that treadmill and havethat conversation is a super scary space, but a
massive unlock when we can figure that out.
And then people can move forward.
And frankly, doing that unleashes us to put somuch more fulfillment into the world, and that
(14:47):
that's my goal.
As I just want to increase the the total amountof fulfillment because that will continue to
move us as a community, humanity, the worldforward.
More human more fulfillment, better existence.
Yes.
Yes.
It is all about awareness as and when peopleunderstand that they can be happy, do what they
(15:13):
love, and also be compensated in the best way,this is what makes their life, more enjoyable
because all our life consists from moments.
Like, now, yes, these moments which are justevery day, there is moment.
And if we don't enjoy what we do, it means wedon't live as we meant to live.
(15:37):
And everyone is so unique and came to thisplanet with so mission.
Yes.
Everyone is different, and everyone has thoseunique talents and gifts.
So for me, fulfillment and success in lifemeans to recognize who you are, what what is
really your strength, what you're good at, andwhat value you can provide, what you you can
(16:01):
bring that doesn't exist yet.
It's because we are very creative, but ourcreative power only comes to place when we want
to use it.
It's like muscles.
It's when people just leave thinking that theyhave to work to make their pension, and then
(16:21):
when they retire, they just can do what theylove.
This is there is no place for creativity.
It is more like conditioned behavior, automatedpatterns, every day the same thing.
Like, people can work twenty or thirty years,go in the same office, seeing the same people.
Yeah.
So it is not so much creativity.
(16:44):
And we like, most people don't use this so hugetalent.
Yeah.
And I I wanna call one, caveat out in this isthat you can go through this work and realize
what I'm doing right now is actually what Iwanna it's worth it to me.
(17:06):
It's worth it to me to be in this job thatmaybe isn't it's self fulfilling, but I get
enough value out of it that there's stillsomething in my cup that I go home and I can do
the things that I wanna do.
I'm not going into these situations tellingpeople, oh, what what's gonna happen at the end
of this is you're gonna realize you're not inyour dream job, and we're gonna you're gonna
(17:26):
quit, and you're gonna go do something totallydifferent.
That's always a possibility, but it's justasking the question and letting go.
And it's just say being honest with yourself,are you fulfilled in what you're doing?
And if not, then it's either taking way toomuch energy to get it done, or it's not
providing you enough value.
If we can figure out how to reduce the energyit takes or increase the value proposition, you
(17:47):
could stay right where you are and find thatfulfillment.
It's just taking the time to ask that question.
And for I think a lot of times, we've been soldthis path that security, individuality,
autonomy climb this mythical corporate ladderfor a lot of people, that's what success looks
(18:09):
like.
And it's just taking that step back to say, I'machieving success, but I don't feel fulfilled.
Then I was like, well, then I think yourdefinition of success is altered, and it's not
functioning for you anymore.
So let's sit down and figure out what is thesuccess that you're going after, and why is it
not feeling fulfilling.
And once you unlock that and start looking atwhat is success, which is a sense that purpose,
(18:33):
what am I driving towards?
What's this metric that I can look at and say,yeah.
I've I've, quote, unquote, made it, or I'mwhere I wanna be, or I'm in the right zone, or
however you wanna define it, that successmetric.
If you're not feeling fulfilled, I wouldguarantee you your success metric is not
accurate at this point in time.
(18:53):
So helping unlock that, and and you youliterally, you could stay in that nine to five
job for twenty years working with the samepeople and be like, this is who I wanna be.
This this stability is really important to me.
This providing for my family in this way isreally important to me.
That provides enough value that the energy ittakes me to do this job is worth the exchange
that still makes it fulfilling.
(19:14):
And so I I just wanna be very clear that thegoal is not to tell everyone if you work a nine
to five job, twenty years at the same place,you're failing at finding fulfillment.
Not the the goal at all.
It's just have you asked yourself the question,and if you're not feeling fulfilled, let's have
that conversation.
What is it that defines your success?
(19:35):
Where are you missing either the valuepropositions or expending way too much energy
to get things done?
And if we can unlock that, if you keep doingthe same stuff and find fulfillment, kudos to
you.
That's fantastic.
I just want people to feel fulfilled whereverthey are.
Yes.
Of course.
For everyone, success is different.
Yes.
(19:55):
Success I like the quote of old Nightingale whosaid that success is the progressive
realization of the worthy ideal.
So decide what is worthy ideal.
Like, what is the big goal for you that worthyour life, that worth your time, your efforts,
and go for it even 1% every day.
(20:16):
Just become better towards your goal, andyou're already successful.
So success is not something that you come tothe top of the mountain.
Yes.
Achieve that big goal.
Success is every day in every step, and this isthe growth process when you look back and say,
oh, today, I'm better than I was yesterday or aweek ago.
(20:36):
This is already success and important to reallyenjoy your life.
Yes.
Enjoy the process because it is not about thegoal itself, but it is mostly about, who you
become on the way to your goal.
Yeah.
That that's powerful.
And I love that.
Like, I I like talking about success as like anorth star.
It's an orientation.
(20:58):
And it what it does is it helps you definewhere your horizon is.
And you are you're never going to arrive atyour star, but you can always orient towards
it.
And just the the quote, what stuck out to meis, like, hearing it through, like, what what's
worth in your life?
Because that's what success is.
You will invest your life in this.
(21:18):
And they're not saying, like, sacrifice yourexistence.
It's your entire existence is going to movetowards this goal.
Whether you do it consciously or unconsciously,every day you are living.
Are you doing that intentionally towards thissuccess metric?
Are you doing it ad hoc?
Are you doing it unintentional waking up everyday and showing up somewhere else?
(21:38):
Without that purpose, it's really hard to findthat success.
And without that success, it's really hard tofind fulfillment because the value proposition
isn't there.
Yeah.
So let's speak now about how rebalance is howwhat are the gaps that we can bridge and how
rebalance our life?
(22:00):
Yeah.
So I'd say the first question is, like, do Ineed to rebalance?
Is do you feel fulfilled?
And that's asking, like, do you feel likeyou're pouring from an empty cup?
And if the answer is, yeah, I I do.
I feel like I'm just exhausted at the end ofevery day, and I struggle, and I have always
have a case of the Mondays.
(22:20):
And it's just that you have all the signalsthat say you're just not fulfilled, however you
wanted to find that.
And it just comes back to the formula of, okay.
Like so I've got the fulfillment formula, and Igot the fulfillment, ROI.
The fulfillment ROI starting with is just thatenergy into value out.
Where aren't where aren't you finding value inwhat you're doing?
(22:41):
Because I oh, I'm just in my job.
It's just like I show up.
If I went away tomorrow, no one would care.
Okay.
So you're not finding value in the work thatyou're doing.
Can we figure that out so that we can find somevalue?
Or it's just like the business is growing soquickly, and there's just so much to do.
I'm putting in eighty hour weeks, and I justnever get to take a day off.
I just feel like I'm anchored or I'm chained tothis job, and it's it's just it's suffocating
(23:06):
me.
Okay.
That's a lot of energy that you're investinginto the work that you're doing.
Let's figure out how to reduce that, and that'slooking at do we need to partner in different
ways.
That's where I would use what's your deal,that, process to figure out what to delegate,
eliminate, automate, and lead to say there's somuch on your plate.
Let's figure out how to better set up, youknow, what you have in front of you.
(23:29):
And then the fulfillment formula is taking astep back and saying, what is it you're trying
to achieve?
Nobody starts out a business without a goal.
Like, no one invests that energy to say, hey.
I'm gonna do something.
Like, you have to have a vision.
You have to have a purpose, at least foryourself when you step into that.
And if you're saying, well, it's just to makemore money, I would challenge and say, again,
money is just a means.
It's not an end.
(23:50):
Make more money so that.
And so, like, I have people go through what Icall it's basically the five whys, but a softer
version.
I just call it so that.
So you're like, I wanna make more money, okay,so that I can provide for my family.
So that ask that five times.
You start to get to what I'd call the morefoundational values that you're driving
(24:12):
towards.
And when you start laying those out, put theminto a formula and say, which one's the most
important?
Which one are you solving for?
And then what do you need to do with the otherthree to four, variables to achieve that?
So, like, case in point for myself, I thoughtautonomy was my my biggest value.
(24:33):
That's why I'm not in a nine to five job.
That's why I'm a consultant and a coach.
I wanted autonomy to work with the clients Iwanted to work with, to set up my schedule that
I wanted.
And I realized that, actually, autonomy, whileit's really important to me, isn't the variable
I solve for.
Impact.
Because I found that I had a lot of autonomywhen I started consulting.
What I didn't have was a lot of impact becauseI didn't have a lot of clients.
(24:55):
I didn't have a lot of people I was workingwith.
So I was creating a bunch of solutions, but Iwasn't feeling fulfilled.
Because I realized all of that autonomy, if itdoesn't feed my ability to create impact,
wasn't providing me fulfillment.
And so I'm willing to sacrifice some autonomyto get me a larger amount of impact.
(25:15):
And so now I know that that's part of it.
I also thought, I don't care about makingmoney.
Like, that's not a just not a driver for me.
A lot of my background, I was a pastor for along period of time.
I've worked in, the social justice space,nonprofits.
I wanted just to to provide value for people.
And so I was like, I don't care about makingmoney.
Well, that's not a 100% true.
(25:37):
Money is an important variable for me up to acertain threshold.
Once my bills are paid, food's on the table,roof over our head, I I don't care about making
more money.
But up until that point, it's impacting myability to have impact.
And so it's that ability to really lay thosethings out.
So walking people through, if you're notfeeling fulfilled, what is your, energy inputs
(26:01):
and value outputs?
And if you can't figure out what's your dealand how to delegate some of that work,
eliminate it, automate it, and what to lead,getting some clarity there, starting to look
at, okay.
Well, what is it that I'm actually valuinghere?
Why am I doing this?
Asking yourself that why question, and thenstart asking the so that so you can get to
start some of those value, foundationalelements.
(26:24):
And then lay those out and say, which one am Isolving for?
And then how do I leverage the other ones tohelp me achieve that?
And you start putting that together, and youstart to see where there are some gaps, where
are there some opportunities for you to dothings perhaps a little differently and to
achieve more fulfillment in the work thatyou're doing.
Yes.
Yes.
(26:44):
So important to understand your value becausevalue and fulfillment is the same.
Yes.
Like, they go hand by hand.
So if you do already, like, in business or incorporate, you can start asking what is my
value.
And then you see, is there is a gap betweenwhat you do and what your value is?
(27:06):
So then you see how you what you can do that itwill be together.
Yes.
Your business and with your business, you willgo to fulfill your values.
Yeah.
Because this is what brings satisfaction.
Right?
Satisfaction and the term again, as money isenergy, and it is equivalent of the value we
(27:30):
provide, so this is important to understandwhat is value for me, yes, and where I want to
move to provide that impact.
Yeah.
And it's like like you said earlier, just setself awareness.
The more you can have that conversation andbuild that up, and that's why I that's why I
(27:51):
became a coach is to be better at helpingpeople have those conversations.
And even if you're not working with a coach,just finding an accountability partner.
Like, having someone to have a conversationwith, especially when you're in those
transition points.
Like, starting a new business.
If you don't have a partner actually startingwith you, who can you talk to or join a group?
Like, I'm a part of the small business ownerscommunity, and that's a huge space just to talk
(28:15):
to other people that are starting businesses,not to specifically network, but to lean on
each other because their logo and the motto isdon't grow it alone.
So that's fantastic.
And just as you're doing that, staying open,reading, finding assessments, other pieces.
Like and frankly, you know, for smallbusinesses, why I in part wrote the book.
(28:39):
So the whole title is manage your gaps,reclaiming the awesomeness of management is one
of the pain points I found for small businessesthat I've worked with is you start a business
and you have a value proposition, which is avision, which is a leadership activity, and you
have some sort of service or product that youdeliver, which is a contribution level
(29:00):
activity.
There's no management really required to start.
Maybe some self management, but it's all inyour head, so it's pretty easy to keep track of
all that stuff for majority of people.
Success happens and all of sudden you grow.
And the skill set that you never really had toleverage when you have three, four, or five
people in your organization is this concept ofmanagement.
(29:21):
And if you've bought into the narrative thatyou're the leader, you're the founder, you have
to do everything, you have to be in charge ofeverything, you get stretched really thin.
And very few people are good at leadershipmanagement and contribution all at the same
time.
So helping them understand small businessowners as you achieve that success and you
start to feel that burnout, one of the bigcauses for that is all the management that you
(29:45):
didn't sign up for when you started thebusiness that is now part of your narrative.
And if you can't figure out how to let go orstep into and let go of something else, that
space, it's gonna bring you down.
And that's why, you know, they have those magicnumbers.
After three years, five years, and ten years,we lose so many small businesses.
(30:06):
I really think the the reason is if you've beenaround that long, you've probably found some
success, and you've grown into a space whereyou need management, but nobody ever told you
what that was.
And nobody told you how to differentiate itfrom leadership or contribution and how you as
a founder should step into this new area ofwork.
So helping unlock that is one of the big thingsI get into in the book because it's a space
(30:28):
where I think a lot of founders lose that mojo,lose that momentum, lose that fulfillment in
the work that they do.
Yeah.
So true.
So true.
And what else you would like to share with theaudience?
Maybe some other tips on how to managethemselves.
As you said, when we start business, we have tobe leader for ourselves.
(30:51):
We have to learn to lead ourselves well.
Right?
And when we lead ourselves, then we can leadothers.
Mhmm.
Yeah.
I'd say the first small business, workinggenius, you can do it on your own on your own.
It's it's actually the most intuitive tool, soI'm gonna talk myself out of a job here.
I'm a Working Genius facilitator.
But if you go to workinggenius.com, you can dothe assessment yourself, have your team take
(31:15):
it, look at your team mass.
It's gonna be very clear on where some of thegaps are and where some of the spaces of
struggle and lack of fulfillment are probablycoming from.
And then just for continued tips, I'm veryactive on LinkedIn, so you can follow me there
or, IPN Advisors, InflexionPoint Nexus Advisorsis also very active.
And if you wanna just get a download of thebook just to kinda get a taste of it, the first
(31:39):
four chapters are free for download atmanagergaps.com.
So that'd be a great starting point for people.
Thank you so much, Matt, yes, for yourexpertise and sharing our podcast.
I'm sure our audience would love to connectwith you, and we will put all your links and,
(32:00):
Voca where they can find in description of thisvideo.
Awesome.
This is a great conversation.
Appreciate it.
Yeah.
I'm looking forward to see you again in ourfuture podcast episodes.
It'd be great.
Thank
Hello.
Hello.
Welcome to mindset to results.
Today, our guest is Matt Le, and, he's aspecialist in bridging gap between people,
processes, and purpose.
He also is the author of the book, manage yourgaps, and cofounder of InflationPoint Nexus
(00:26):
Advisors.
Hi, Matt.
Hey, Elena.
It's good to be here.
Yeah.
Great to meet you.
Thank you for being at our podcast and, sharingyour passion and knowledge with our audience.
We will speak today about the very importanttopic, how to live with fulfillment.
(00:48):
And if you don't live with fulfillment, how togain it, how rebalance your life.
And before we start learning about howrebalance from you, I would like to ask you to
tell us a little bit about yourself.
How did you come for your fulfillment?
(01:11):
How it started?
How did you find your patient?
Yeah.
It's a great question.
So, one, I've I've moved a lot.
So I've I've had 22 addresses in forty fouryears, and so I've always had to learn what's
going on in group dynamics, like, what's goingon in these new environments.
And so I've been always paying a lot ofattention to that and sort of started as a
(01:35):
survival skill.
And then I realized I was good at it and that Iactually enjoyed it.
And so for me, what I was looking at withinthis is, like, where are the gaps?
Where are people not finding this concept offulfillment?
Because I found that that was a big driver forme.
It was what is it that drives these people tofind joy in the work that they do, the lives
(01:58):
that they have?
And for a long time, I was like, well, that'ssuch a such a personal journey.
How could you ever help people find their ownpersonal fulfillment?
How could you support someone on that withoutreally getting to know them deeply?
And while I still feel like that's how you helpthem on the journey, helping to outline what
does the journey look like, I found thatthere's actually a structure to it in the sense
(02:19):
of what I call fulfillment ROI is that theenergy we invest in something and the value
produce that that produces for us, thatexchange, if that's a positive return, that's a
fulfilling experience.
And so what I was finding as I was working withpeople both as a coach and just growing up in
life and then as a consultant is if we couldwork to reduce the amount of energy it took to
(02:43):
get things done and really get clear on thevalue propositions, then we could help people
get out of that sense of unfulfillment and tostart feeling energized again with very few
tweaks in their perspective or in the work thatthey were doing.
And for me, that was finding that enough.
I'm not wired for a nine to five.
(03:03):
I I'm an ebb and flow energy person.
I am really good at making chaos into order,but I'm terrible at maintaining that order.
And I love finding people in the creativespaces and designing, and then maintaining was
not it for me.
And so it was just learning in the course ofthings getting done, where do I show up and
(03:27):
shine, and where do I find my bulb gettingdimmed?
And just owning that and saying, look, that's agift because I bring to the table things that
for other people might be where their bulbsdim.
And the things where my bulb dims actually issomeone else's joy.
And so it was an opportunity me for me torealize I don't have to do everything.
And in fact, trying to do everything is what'scausing me to feel unfulfilled.
(03:51):
Helping other people recognize where they shineand where they need to partner is a lot of the
work that I do both with individuals andorganizations.
And then last piece, just for me, fulfillmentis my kids.
Like, that that's what drives me.
It's like, I've got three littles, 12, nine,and seven at home and with my wife.
Watching them grow up is the most fascinatingand enjoyable thing that I do on a daily basis.
(04:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Of course.
Of course.
It's so good to see how children grow, and, wecan give them so much, yes, to be successful.
And, yes.
So what you just said about fulfillment is thatfinding yourself and do what you really love to
(04:42):
do and what is your strength will help tominimize energy we spend.
Yes.
Because when we do something that we havestrength, what is our, genius and, something
that we love to do, it means that we do itnaturally as it is on the flow, and we enjoy
(05:02):
this process.
And, that is why it is so important to reallydo what you are good at.
And vice versa, If people do something thatthey're not good at, this is how they spend a
lot of energy, and they don't get satisfactionif they don't don't enjoy what they do.
(05:24):
So finding of what you love and what you'restrong is that part of the process to find and
create that fulfillment in life.
Yeah.
No.
I absolutely agree.
It it reminds me of a it's it's not trueIkigai, but there's the Ikigai formula, which
is the sort of it's like a big Venn diagram ofwhat are you good at, what do you love doing,
(05:50):
what does the world need, and what can you getpaid for.
And it's figuring out what fits into thosepieces that is what you should be looking for
to sustain and find that fulfillment.
The the part that I would I bring up a lot oftimes with clients is I love that we're getting
clear on language.
It's the fact that there's a difference betweena strength and a joy.
(06:12):
And a lot of times, we build competencies inspaces that don't actually bring us joy.
And so people say, oh, you're really good atthat.
And so they continue to give us that type ofactivity, that type of work.
And that's what Gay Hendrix in his book, TheBig Leap, would call a zone of excellence.
But to get out of your zone of excellence isthe big leap to get into your zone of joy is
(06:33):
recognizing that you need that other portion ofthe diagram.
You need that what do you love to do.
And sometimes the things we love to do, wedon't invest as much energy in because we're
like, oh, well, I'm never gonna get paid forthat, or people don't really need that or it's
too much fun.
I can't really be work because I'm enjoyingthat too much.
And so we lean into our strengths, thecompetencies, the things that we're good at,
(06:56):
not the things that we find joy in.
And recognizing that if we would take that leapand start building out the things that bring us
joy, because they bring us joy, we're going toquickly turn those into competencies and
strengths.
And it's that scary initial step that's where alot of people get stuck.
And so especially when you're starting a newbusiness, you gotta do everything.
(07:18):
Like, you've got all the hats on.
And as you start to grow and boom, all of asudden you find success, figuring out where it
is that you find joy versus where itnecessarily you have competency.
It's a lot of work I do with people in thestartup and entrepreneurial space, is how to
learn what to let go of.
I actually have a whole process I go calledwhat's your deal that walks through that, to
(07:41):
basically say helping people understand whatyou need to delegate, eliminate, automate, and
lead.
So the d e a and l of leadership.
And helping the people understand how to dothat is it's amazing watching people go through
that.
It's a huge weight lifted off their shoulders,and all of a sudden, they're finding that joy
(08:02):
again in the work that they're doing becausethey're just taking that conscious step.
Because if you're doing everything, the onlyguarantee I can give you is you're gonna burn
out because there's going to be something inthere that does not bring you joy at a level
that will sustain you.
And figuring out how to let go of that andpartner with someone who does find joy there is
one of the next steps in finding continuedsuccess in a small business or entrepreneurial
(08:26):
endeavor.
Mhmm.
Yeah.
So build the team and find people who cancomplete you.
Yes.
Like, complete you who love something and arestrong in something that you are not.
So everyone can focus on their strength andwhat they love to do.
And this is how people will be in very greatstate because they enjoy what they do, and they
(08:52):
will spend more energy, and they will createthat flow that everyone is excited.
And, of course, it also should be connectedwith big purpose.
Everyone should understand that they are doingsomething valuable, that it is has a big
purpose, and this also contribute to their,feeling good.
(09:14):
Yes.
Feeling good knowing that you are doingsomething important.
I and I total a 100% agree.
Like, actually, I I do, especially in a when Ido facilitations, work with, people that say
that there's a difference that we need to beclear on it between progress and activity.
And a lot of times, we get busy with activity,and we see tasks, and we get them done.
(09:37):
It was like, you can spend a lot of energyrunning in circles, and that's not gonna make
much progress.
What we need to do, just like you said, is giveeveryone on the same page.
Progress is actually a three step process oforientation, activation, and sustained
momentum.
And orientation is all about, like you said,what are we here for?
What's our purpose?
Let's get clear on that so that we can makeprogress.
(10:00):
Then the activities is what we need to do, butthat stepping into your joy and partnering well
is how you sustain that momentum so that youcontinue to make progress.
And I would say even for small businesses,there's so many hats to wear on entrepreneurial
individuals.
When you start to partner, it's less lookingfor, oh, well, I need to start doing sales.
(10:20):
I gotta find someone who does sales.
Or, like, oh, we're gonna start doing morefacilitations.
We gotta find people that do facilitations, orI need more IT.
Whatever it is as a task set, look more forthose energy profiles.
And, Patrick Lancione came up with a reallygreat assessment tool, I think, four years ago.
It was just during COVID called working genius,which is exactly set up to figure that out.
(10:43):
It looks at the six phases of things gettingdone.
Where do you find joy?
Where are you like, it's a they call it acompetency, and where do you find frustration,
which is an energy draining space.
If you can partner to cover all six of thosepieces with the people you work with, you're
gonna be able to get all the work done at alevel of joy or competency for everyone in the
(11:05):
group.
So it's less about the particular skill sets.
It's more about the energy profiles as you'restarting to partner with people would be a
recommendation I have.
Yes.
And another thing that you said that alsoresonated with me so much that you don't need
to choose between doing what you love andmaking money.
(11:26):
Because for some people, they have awe or theyhave or they make money, they think and when
they focus on money or they think that I havehobby.
So when I make money, then I will do what Ilike to do.
So instead of putting it together, it can beend end.
(11:48):
It can be focused on what you love to do.
And when you focus on that, you becomeprofessional because this is you have natural
advantage in comparison with other people.
And when you do that and focus on creatingvalue, money will come as a result because
(12:08):
money always is equivalent of the value weprovide.
Mhmm.
Yeah.
A 100% agree that, like, money is just a means.
It's not an act.
It's just a value conversion.
That's the easiest sort of we all agree on it.
I mean, it money is just a a social constructbased on our own understanding of, like, value.
(12:29):
And so figuring out what we find joy in andcontinuing to develop that, like so that's what
I love about the the Ichigoi Venn diagram isthat it also has that pillar about what the
world needs, which is another way of sayingwhat are people capable of, like and also what
what people can pay you for.
So there might be some hobbies out there wheresomeone's like, oh, I just I I I love painting,
(12:52):
miniature figurines.
Like, who's ever gonna pay for that?
Well, one, we have a huge gig economy with theInternet and everything.
If you really cared about that, putting sometime into finding where that niche exists that
people want to buy painted figurines forwhatever purpose they want those for, you, one,
can look for it.
And two, say, if I can't find a market, what isit about this that I really like?
(13:17):
What is it?
Is it the methodical getting to createsomething that's detail oriented that I can
physically see after it's done?
If that if you can name the aspects of thething that brings you joy, then start saying
what other things that people get paid for havea profile similar to this.
And even if you have to come in at a lowerlevel, the fact that you love the work that
(13:40):
you're doing, one, it's not gonna feel likework, and two, you're gonna get good at it
really quickly because you're not just gonnagive the minimum.
You're gonna give your maximum because you'regetting fed by the thing that you're doing.
So your growth, like, trajectory is gonna bemuch more of that hockey stick versus that
linear slow growth.
And so, oh, I don't wanna leave my high payingjob that makes me miserable so that I have to
(14:05):
take vacations and I have no nothing in my cup.
What again, it's like money is an exchange.
You're exchanging all your value for somethingthat doesn't sustain you, that doesn't bring
you purpose, doesn't bring you fulfillment.
And why?
Like, why what what have we told ourselves gotus into this place that we say we have to do
(14:26):
this?
And getting to stop on that treadmill and havethat conversation is a super scary space, but a
massive unlock when we can figure that out.
And then people can move forward.
And frankly, doing that unleashes us to put somuch more fulfillment into the world, and that
(14:47):
that's my goal.
As I just want to increase the the total amountof fulfillment because that will continue to
move us as a community, humanity, the worldforward.
More human more fulfillment, better existence.
Yes.
Yes.
It is all about awareness as and when peopleunderstand that they can be happy, do what they
(15:13):
love, and also be compensated in the best way,this is what makes their life, more enjoyable
because all our life consists from moments.
Like, now, yes, these moments which are justevery day, there is moment.
And if we don't enjoy what we do, it means wedon't live as we meant to live.
(15:37):
And everyone is so unique and came to thisplanet with so mission.
Yes.
Everyone is different, and everyone has thoseunique talents and gifts.
So for me, fulfillment and success in lifemeans to recognize who you are, what what is
really your strength, what you're good at, andwhat value you can provide, what you you can
(16:01):
bring that doesn't exist yet.
It's because we are very creative, but ourcreative power only comes to place when we want
to use it.
It's like muscles.
It's when people just leave thinking that theyhave to work to make their pension, and then
(16:21):
when they retire, they just can do what theylove.
This is there is no place for creativity.
It is more like conditioned behavior, automatedpatterns, every day the same thing.
Like, people can work twenty or thirty years,go in the same office, seeing the same people.
Yeah.
So it is not so much creativity.
(16:44):
And we like, most people don't use this so hugetalent.
Yeah.
And I I wanna call one, caveat out in this isthat you can go through this work and realize
what I'm doing right now is actually what Iwanna it's worth it to me.
(17:06):
It's worth it to me to be in this job thatmaybe isn't it's self fulfilling, but I get
enough value out of it that there's stillsomething in my cup that I go home and I can do
the things that I wanna do.
I'm not going into these situations tellingpeople, oh, what what's gonna happen at the end
of this is you're gonna realize you're not inyour dream job, and we're gonna you're gonna
(17:26):
quit, and you're gonna go do something totallydifferent.
That's always a possibility, but it's justasking the question and letting go.
And it's just say being honest with yourself,are you fulfilled in what you're doing?
And if not, then it's either taking way toomuch energy to get it done, or it's not
providing you enough value.
If we can figure out how to reduce the energyit takes or increase the value proposition, you
(17:47):
could stay right where you are and find thatfulfillment.
It's just taking the time to ask that question.
And for I think a lot of times, we've been soldthis path that security, individuality,
autonomy climb this mythical corporate ladderfor a lot of people, that's what success looks
(18:09):
like.
And it's just taking that step back to say, I'machieving success, but I don't feel fulfilled.
Then I was like, well, then I think yourdefinition of success is altered, and it's not
functioning for you anymore.
So let's sit down and figure out what is thesuccess that you're going after, and why is it
not feeling fulfilling.
And once you unlock that and start looking atwhat is success, which is a sense that purpose,
(18:33):
what am I driving towards?
What's this metric that I can look at and say,yeah.
I've I've, quote, unquote, made it, or I'mwhere I wanna be, or I'm in the right zone, or
however you wanna define it, that successmetric.
If you're not feeling fulfilled, I wouldguarantee you your success metric is not
accurate at this point in time.
(18:53):
So helping unlock that, and and you youliterally, you could stay in that nine to five
job for twenty years working with the samepeople and be like, this is who I wanna be.
This this stability is really important to me.
This providing for my family in this way isreally important to me.
That provides enough value that the energy ittakes me to do this job is worth the exchange
that still makes it fulfilling.
(19:14):
And so I I just wanna be very clear that thegoal is not to tell everyone if you work a nine
to five job, twenty years at the same place,you're failing at finding fulfillment.
Not the the goal at all.
It's just have you asked yourself the question,and if you're not feeling fulfilled, let's have
that conversation.
What is it that defines your success?
(19:35):
Where are you missing either the valuepropositions or expending way too much energy
to get things done?
And if we can unlock that, if you keep doingthe same stuff and find fulfillment, kudos to
you.
That's fantastic.
I just want people to feel fulfilled whereverthey are.
Yes.
Of course.
For everyone, success is different.
Yes.
(19:55):
Success I like the quote of old Nightingale whosaid that success is the progressive
realization of the worthy ideal.
So decide what is worthy ideal.
Like, what is the big goal for you that worthyour life, that worth your time, your efforts,
and go for it even 1% every day.
(20:16):
Just become better towards your goal, andyou're already successful.
So success is not something that you come tothe top of the mountain.
Yes.
Achieve that big goal.
Success is every day in every step, and this isthe growth process when you look back and say,
oh, today, I'm better than I was yesterday or aweek ago.
(20:36):
This is already success and important to reallyenjoy your life.
Yes.
Enjoy the process because it is not about thegoal itself, but it is mostly about, who you
become on the way to your goal.
Yeah.
That that's powerful.
And I love that.
Like, I I like talking about success as like anorth star.
It's an orientation.
(20:58):
And it what it does is it helps you definewhere your horizon is.
And you are you're never going to arrive atyour star, but you can always orient towards
it.
And just the the quote, what stuck out to meis, like, hearing it through, like, what what's
worth in your life?
Because that's what success is.
You will invest your life in this.
(21:18):
And they're not saying, like, sacrifice yourexistence.
It's your entire existence is going to movetowards this goal.
Whether you do it consciously or unconsciously,every day you are living.
Are you doing that intentionally towards thissuccess metric?
Are you doing it ad hoc?
Are you doing it unintentional waking up everyday and showing up somewhere else?
(21:38):
Without that purpose, it's really hard to findthat success.
And without that success, it's really hard tofind fulfillment because the value proposition
isn't there.
Yeah.
So let's speak now about how rebalance is howwhat are the gaps that we can bridge and how
rebalance our life?
(22:00):
Yeah.
So I'd say the first question is, like, do Ineed to rebalance?
Is do you feel fulfilled?
And that's asking, like, do you feel likeyou're pouring from an empty cup?
And if the answer is, yeah, I I do.
I feel like I'm just exhausted at the end ofevery day, and I struggle, and I have always
have a case of the Mondays.
(22:20):
And it's just that you have all the signalsthat say you're just not fulfilled, however you
wanted to find that.
And it just comes back to the formula of, okay.
Like so I've got the fulfillment formula, and Igot the fulfillment, ROI.
The fulfillment ROI starting with is just thatenergy into value out.
Where aren't where aren't you finding value inwhat you're doing?
(22:41):
Because I oh, I'm just in my job.
It's just like I show up.
If I went away tomorrow, no one would care.
Okay.
So you're not finding value in the work thatyou're doing.
Can we figure that out so that we can find somevalue?
Or it's just like the business is growing soquickly, and there's just so much to do.
I'm putting in eighty hour weeks, and I justnever get to take a day off.
I just feel like I'm anchored or I'm chained tothis job, and it's it's just it's suffocating
(23:06):
me.
Okay.
That's a lot of energy that you're investinginto the work that you're doing.
Let's figure out how to reduce that, and that'slooking at do we need to partner in different
ways.
That's where I would use what's your deal,that, process to figure out what to delegate,
eliminate, automate, and lead to say there's somuch on your plate.
Let's figure out how to better set up, youknow, what you have in front of you.
(23:29):
And then the fulfillment formula is taking astep back and saying, what is it you're trying
to achieve?
Nobody starts out a business without a goal.
Like, no one invests that energy to say, hey.
I'm gonna do something.
Like, you have to have a vision.
You have to have a purpose, at least foryourself when you step into that.
And if you're saying, well, it's just to makemore money, I would challenge and say, again,
money is just a means.
It's not an end.
(23:50):
Make more money so that.
And so, like, I have people go through what Icall it's basically the five whys, but a softer
version.
I just call it so that.
So you're like, I wanna make more money, okay,so that I can provide for my family.
So that ask that five times.
You start to get to what I'd call the morefoundational values that you're driving
(24:12):
towards.
And when you start laying those out, put theminto a formula and say, which one's the most
important?
Which one are you solving for?
And then what do you need to do with the otherthree to four, variables to achieve that?
So, like, case in point for myself, I thoughtautonomy was my my biggest value.
(24:33):
That's why I'm not in a nine to five job.
That's why I'm a consultant and a coach.
I wanted autonomy to work with the clients Iwanted to work with, to set up my schedule that
I wanted.
And I realized that, actually, autonomy, whileit's really important to me, isn't the variable
I solve for.
Impact.
Because I found that I had a lot of autonomywhen I started consulting.
What I didn't have was a lot of impact becauseI didn't have a lot of clients.
(24:55):
I didn't have a lot of people I was workingwith.
So I was creating a bunch of solutions, but Iwasn't feeling fulfilled.
Because I realized all of that autonomy, if itdoesn't feed my ability to create impact,
wasn't providing me fulfillment.
And so I'm willing to sacrifice some autonomyto get me a larger amount of impact.
(25:15):
And so now I know that that's part of it.
I also thought, I don't care about makingmoney.
Like, that's not a just not a driver for me.
A lot of my background, I was a pastor for along period of time.
I've worked in, the social justice space,nonprofits.
I wanted just to to provide value for people.
And so I was like, I don't care about makingmoney.
Well, that's not a 100% true.
(25:37):
Money is an important variable for me up to acertain threshold.
Once my bills are paid, food's on the table,roof over our head, I I don't care about making
more money.
But up until that point, it's impacting myability to have impact.
And so it's that ability to really lay thosethings out.
So walking people through, if you're notfeeling fulfilled, what is your, energy inputs
(26:01):
and value outputs?
And if you can't figure out what's your dealand how to delegate some of that work,
eliminate it, automate it, and what to lead,getting some clarity there, starting to look
at, okay.
Well, what is it that I'm actually valuinghere?
Why am I doing this?
Asking yourself that why question, and thenstart asking the so that so you can get to
start some of those value, foundationalelements.
(26:24):
And then lay those out and say, which one am Isolving for?
And then how do I leverage the other ones tohelp me achieve that?
And you start putting that together, and youstart to see where there are some gaps, where
are there some opportunities for you to dothings perhaps a little differently and to
achieve more fulfillment in the work thatyou're doing.
Yes.
Yes.
(26:44):
So important to understand your value becausevalue and fulfillment is the same.
Yes.
Like, they go hand by hand.
So if you do already, like, in business or incorporate, you can start asking what is my
value.
And then you see, is there is a gap betweenwhat you do and what your value is?
(27:06):
So then you see how you what you can do that itwill be together.
Yes.
Your business and with your business, you willgo to fulfill your values.
Yeah.
Because this is what brings satisfaction.
Right?
Satisfaction and the term again, as money isenergy, and it is equivalent of the value we
(27:30):
provide, so this is important to understandwhat is value for me, yes, and where I want to
move to provide that impact.
Yeah.
And it's like like you said earlier, just setself awareness.
The more you can have that conversation andbuild that up, and that's why I that's why I
(27:51):
became a coach is to be better at helpingpeople have those conversations.
And even if you're not working with a coach,just finding an accountability partner.
Like, having someone to have a conversationwith, especially when you're in those
transition points.
Like, starting a new business.
If you don't have a partner actually startingwith you, who can you talk to or join a group?
Like, I'm a part of the small business ownerscommunity, and that's a huge space just to talk
(28:15):
to other people that are starting businesses,not to specifically network, but to lean on
each other because their logo and the motto isdon't grow it alone.
So that's fantastic.
And just as you're doing that, staying open,reading, finding assessments, other pieces.
Like and frankly, you know, for smallbusinesses, why I in part wrote the book.
(28:39):
So the whole title is manage your gaps,reclaiming the awesomeness of management is one
of the pain points I found for small businessesthat I've worked with is you start a business
and you have a value proposition, which is avision, which is a leadership activity, and you
have some sort of service or product that youdeliver, which is a contribution level
(29:00):
activity.
There's no management really required to start.
Maybe some self management, but it's all inyour head, so it's pretty easy to keep track of
all that stuff for majority of people.
Success happens and all of sudden you grow.
And the skill set that you never really had toleverage when you have three, four, or five
people in your organization is this concept ofmanagement.
(29:21):
And if you've bought into the narrative thatyou're the leader, you're the founder, you have
to do everything, you have to be in charge ofeverything, you get stretched really thin.
And very few people are good at leadershipmanagement and contribution all at the same
time.
So helping them understand small businessowners as you achieve that success and you
start to feel that burnout, one of the bigcauses for that is all the management that you
(29:45):
didn't sign up for when you started thebusiness that is now part of your narrative.
And if you can't figure out how to let go orstep into and let go of something else, that
space, it's gonna bring you down.
And that's why, you know, they have those magicnumbers.
After three years, five years, and ten years,we lose so many small businesses.
(30:06):
I really think the the reason is if you've beenaround that long, you've probably found some
success, and you've grown into a space whereyou need management, but nobody ever told you
what that was.
And nobody told you how to differentiate itfrom leadership or contribution and how you as
a founder should step into this new area ofwork.
So helping unlock that is one of the big thingsI get into in the book because it's a space
(30:28):
where I think a lot of founders lose that mojo,lose that momentum, lose that fulfillment in
the work that they do.
Yeah.
So true.
So true.
And what else you would like to share with theaudience?
Maybe some other tips on how to managethemselves.
As you said, when we start business, we have tobe leader for ourselves.
(30:51):
We have to learn to lead ourselves well.
Right?
And when we lead ourselves, then we can leadothers.
Mhmm.
Yeah.
I'd say the first small business, workinggenius, you can do it on your own on your own.
It's it's actually the most intuitive tool, soI'm gonna talk myself out of a job here.
I'm a Working Genius facilitator.
But if you go to workinggenius.com, you can dothe assessment yourself, have your team take
(31:15):
it, look at your team mass.
It's gonna be very clear on where some of thegaps are and where some of the spaces of
struggle and lack of fulfillment are probablycoming from.
And then just for continued tips, I'm veryactive on LinkedIn, so you can follow me there
or, IPN Advisors, InflexionPoint Nexus Advisorsis also very active.
And if you wanna just get a download of thebook just to kinda get a taste of it, the first
(31:39):
four chapters are free for download atmanagergaps.com.
So that'd be a great starting point for people.
Thank you so much, Matt, yes, for yourexpertise and sharing our podcast.
I'm sure our audience would love to connectwith you, and we will put all your links and,
(32:00):
Voca where they can find in description of thisvideo.
Awesome.
This is a great conversation.
Appreciate it.
Yeah.
I'm looking forward to see you again in ourfuture podcast episodes.
It'd be great.
Thank
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