June 27, 2025 • 60 mins
Join Elena Apalkova as she welcomes Henry Yampolsky to explore the art of conflict transformation. Henry shares insights on effectively engaging in conflicts, emphasizing the difference between reacting and responding. They discuss four core principles, practical applications, and a breathing technique to manage conflict. Discover organizational strategies, the role of compassion, and the power of observation without evaluation. Henry introduces transformative questioning and shares "The Story of the 17 Camels." They cover perspective expansion, physical techniques, and accountability in mediation. The episode concludes with Henry's future plans and his book, "Dissolving Conflict from Within."
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Episode Transcript
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(00:03):
Hello.
Hello.
Welcome to mindset to results.
Today, we have, Henry Jan Janpolski, who is theguest at our show.
And we will discuss very, very important topic,and it is responding to conflict with clarity,
(00:25):
strength, and compassion.
Hi, Henry.
Hello, Elena.
How are you?
I am great.
It was great to know that you are from Ukrainewhere we would meet.
Yes.
Yes.
I am I am from Ukraine.
I came to The United States in 1994, So I'vebeen living in a in in The US for a very long
(00:46):
time, but I am I am originally from Ukraine,from Kyiv.
Yeah.
Very good to know that.
Yeah.
So let's discuss this important topic fordriven business owners and entrepreneurs
because conflicts can happen.
Yes.
They happen.
And it is so important to know how we cantransform the conflict to the situation with
(01:11):
compassion, clarity, and strength.
Yeah.
So, let's start from sharing about you.
Tell us a little bit about you, what you do,and how did you come to this, what you do now.
Mhmm.
Yes.
It was it was quite a journey.
So, Yelena, as I as I mentioned, I came,originally from Ukraine to The United States.
(01:34):
I was 14 in 1994.
And and and life for me and my parents wasquite difficult.
We lived in a small a relatively small town inPennsylvania where just very few immigrants in
this town.
And so I thought if I'd become a lawyer, Icould be the voice for people like my parents.
(01:55):
And so I became a lawyer.
And for many years, I practiced law inPhiladelphia.
I did a lot of work with civil rights and laboremployment.
But after about seven seven or eight years ofpractice, I came to a point where I was quite
burned out and also were to a point where I wasvery frustrated with the system, the
(02:18):
traditional, you know, British Anglo Saxonsystem of laws and courts because I I I thought
it was quite violent.
I thought it was quite binary.
I thought it was very difficult to truly hearsomeone's voice.
Everything was based in power and and all ofthose things.
(02:39):
And so then it was at that time, Elena, that Istarted searching for different or alternative
ways to approach conflict, to approach even mywork as a lawyer.
And through a series of transformative events,personally transformative events, I ended up in
India, and India has had a very, very profoundand deep influence on me.
(03:05):
At this point, I've been there 20 times.
I connected very, very deeply with Gandhi'steachings on nonviolence.
I connected very, very deeply with traditionalyogic teachings on conflict, and that began to
shape what I ended up doing.
So so it was after my trip to India that Istarted trainings in mediation.
(03:30):
I completed number of trainings in mediation,collaborative law, coaching, different
different approaches and different ways toapproach conflict.
And through that, through my experiences inIndia, through my personal spiritual practice,
developed from this experience, emerged anapproach to conflict, to conflict
(03:51):
transformation that I see as very integral totransforming our conflict interactions.
And this approach ultimately is the mostimportant of this.
It's not what we do in conflict, but actuallyhow we show up how we show up.
And so as a result of this work and as aresult, my personal spiritual practice is
(04:16):
result is a result of really going very, verydeep into a lot of the eastern teachings on
conflict.
I developed or or really, maybe maybe developedis not the right the the right word.
I communicated four principles of conflicttransformation, which enable us to shift our
(04:40):
conflict interactions and to shift fromreacting to conflict with fear, with avoidance,
with aggression, to responding with strength,with clarity, and with compassion.
Yeah.
Thank you for sharing your experience.
It is very interesting how different culturesis give opportunities to look at things from
(05:05):
different perspective.
Yeah.
It took you to go to India outside of, yourenvironment to find different perspectives,
yeah, different way how to look at conflictsituation.
So let's speak about the causes.
What you think are the causes of conflicts?
(05:26):
You see, causes and ultimately I I I viewconflict very, very broadly.
And I will suggest, Elena, that what causesconflict is really anything that changes our
story because we process life throughnarrative.
Ultimately, we have a narrative that we run allthe time.
(05:49):
Right?
And that's and and that's how we process.
We process life by telling a narrativenarrative about it.
And so conflict really is anything thatchallenges our narrative.
And here, Elena, we also need to make adistinction, between reacting and responding
(06:10):
because in English, we tend to use these wordsinterchangeably.
And I wanna suggest that, actually, they havevery, very different meanings.
So what is a reaction?
Reaction is our attempt to escape or controlwhoever or whatever is triggering us.
So whenever our story is challenged wheneverour story is challenged, most of the time,
(06:34):
actually, even from the perspective ofneuropsychology, the brain activity transitions
from the prefrontal cortex, which is thelargest part of a brain, to the brain stem.
And a brain stem is really capable, of kind ofpreprogrammed fight or flight type reactions.
(06:54):
And that's and that's the nature of thereaction.
It's essentially a software.
It's something that we are conditioned to do,and it's escape or control whoever or whatever
is triggering us.
So then what is a response?
Response is an action that is appropriate forthe situation, which arises from an undisturbed
(07:18):
state.
So key here is not actually what we do, butwhere the doing is coming from, what state
we're in.
And to give you an example and to give yourlisteners an example, Yelena, you know, suppose
when we're dealing with a two year old two orthree year old child.
You know, a two or three year old child is achild that is fascinating because that's the
(07:42):
age that children learn that people havebuttons.
And, you know, if you press differentcombinations of buttons, sometimes fun things
happen, sometimes not so fun things happen.
And so they're experimenting.
Right?
They try to press different buttons and seewhat will happen.
So let's say you're with a two or three yearold child, and maybe the child is doing
(08:04):
something, and, you know, and you are lookingat this, and you can say, wow.
That what they're doing is kinda clever.
Right?
It takes some ingenuity.
It takes some understanding.
It takes some planning.
But then maybe as an adult, you have to raiseyour voice, so you have to bring the child
back, you know, just just just to set thatboundary.
But, actually, you're really not mad.
(08:26):
You're not mad.
You're not angry at that child.
You're not gonna stop loving that child.
But maybe for purposes of the situation, youneed to take the appropriate action where you
act angry or mad, and that's the nature of aresponse.
There is clarity.
There is ease.
There is peace and and a and and even possiblyjoy inside as we take the action that is
(08:50):
necessary and appropriate for the situation,and that's the nature of the response.
And in much of my work, what I do is reallyhelp people to move from reacting to conflict
to responding.
Mhmm.
Yeah.
(09:11):
So true.
Because reacting, it doesn't doesn't takethinking process.
It is just automatic reaction.
Why it is called reacting?
Yeah.
Because it just happens on autopilot.
And, if people react without thinking whatthey're doing or what they're saying, they can
hurt somebody.
(09:32):
They can do something bad that they will regretlater.
Yeah.
So when responding, we think Yeah.
We think and think, like, what is the best wayto address the situation?
And then we respond from the place how we wantthe situation to be handled.
(09:53):
Yeah.
And this is, as for me, it's such a bigdifference between reacting and responding.
Usually, people react just based on their fivesenses.
Yes.
This ability to see, hear, taste, and smell andtouch, And this is how people usually live
based on just physical senses.
And they just act like, like machines, likecomputer, yeah, or action direction or animals.
(10:18):
Yes.
But what makes people really be the highestform of creation, which are humans supposed to
be, is this using their high mental facultiessuch as reasoning, yes, perception, ability to
look at the situation from different point ofview and and then respond.
Yes.
Not just risk react without reasoning.
(10:42):
This is also so big difference between peopleand animals' ability to reason, to think, and,
also to to solve situation with compassion.
Yes.
Understanding and thinking why that person didthat, it also makes very big difference in
conflict solving.
(11:02):
Yes.
Could could I actually maybe, maybe challengesomething that you said just a little bit?
Because it's not I I I I I wanna make clearthat the difference between reaction and
response is not just a thought.
Right?
Thoughts can be quite compulsive too.
It's where the thoughts are coming from.
So we go even be to some extent, we need to gobeyond thought.
(11:25):
Right?
It's not just that we think about somethingbecause, again, if our thoughts our our our
thoughts can be just as reactive as ouractions.
It's not the different it's not just that we,in responding, we think.
It's in responding.
We're acting from a different space.
Right?
From a difference from a space of ease.
(11:48):
And and from that space, it's more it's morethan just thinking.
And this is, Helena, where we start gettinginto four principles of conflict
transformation.
And this and this is really, really becomesvery, very essential for this.
So what are the four principles of conflicttransformation?
(12:08):
one is tuning inward.
Tuning inward.
Now tuning inward is not thinking.
It's not thinking.
Tuning inward is actually where we talk aboutmindfulness.
However, very western idea of mindfulness isthat we do mindfulness to feel better.
Right?
We do meditation.
We do yoga to feel better.
(12:31):
My invitation is that we start doing this toget better at feeling.
So, actually, we're able to be with whatever isarising.
Whatever is arising.
Sometimes it's pleasant.
Sometimes it's not.
Whatever is happening, whatever is thesituation happening, we're just able to tune in
(12:52):
and be with it.
Be with it without trying to fix it, withouttrying to change it, without trying to even
analyze it.
Just be with this.
Really tune in and connect with our feelings,with our values.
And if we're talking about even onorganizational levels, this is what I even work
with organizations and and and and and and andcompanies tuning inward.
(13:14):
What is truly important?
What is truly who are we?
Who are we as an organization?
Who are we as this community?
What are our core values?
Now after turning inward after turning inward,where we go in the principle is observation
without evaluation.
(13:36):
Observation without evaluation.
Fundamentally, this is about how we listen.
The purest form of observation withoutevaluation is listening.
So if we want to transform our conflictinteractions and one of the and most important
skills that I teach my students is how tolisten.
(13:57):
How to listen where listening itself becomes aspiritual practice.
Now most of us, if we're really honest if we'rereally honest, when we are engaging with other
people and especially if the engagement in anyway challenges us, we actually are not
listening to the person.
We're listening to our narrative, our story ofthe person.
(14:22):
Once we so to so so once we do tuning inwardand we develop that awareness between actually
listening to what the person is saying andlistening to our story of that person, that can
fundamentally shift how we engage with people.
The principle is expansion.
(14:44):
The principle is expansion.
When we are in conflict, our focus becomes verynarrow.
We're focused on past grievance or on futureanxiety, and very often, we don't see anything
else.
Expansion means also we start moving frompositions because most of our interactions are
(15:05):
purely positional.
And especially now in this day and age when wetend to be so reductionist, most of our
interactions are purely positional.
Meaning, someone states a position and beforethey're done, they're already being attacked.
They're already being called a name.
And we need to expand, move from positions toand through interests, to to and through
(15:27):
emotions, to and through values, and finallyand most importantly, to needs.
So understanding the true needs in conflict.
And final principle is exploration, and this iswhere we engage with curiosity, bring in
curiosity into conflict, and also engage withcomplexity, nuance, ambiguity, uncertainty
(15:51):
inherent in every single one of us as humanbeings and therefore inherent in every single
one of our human interactions.
Yes.
It is very deep, deep, profound understanding,the difference between reaction and, response.
(16:12):
Mhmm.
So how people can how can people can, implementthis in practice?
Sure.
Sure.
So I think from implement in terms ofimplementing this in practice actually, what I
will say to my students and what I will say tomost people that I work with, actually, one of
(16:36):
the most important tools of conflicttransformation, this is where we start with the
very step, right, with the very with with thevery principle, tuning inward.
One of the most important tools of conflicttransformation is breath, and I didn't I didn't
misspeak.
I didn't have anything funny for lunch.
What I said is exactly what I mean.
(16:58):
It's breath.
Why?
Because most of the time, we have no control ofwhat someone else is doing.
What is the biggest difference in term betweenreacting and responding?
It's how we are.
Right?
It's how we are in that moment.
So, Yelena, if you would like, I'm happy toshare with your listeners a very, very simple
(17:24):
breathing technique that can help us shift howwe are in a conflict situation.
Because, ultimately, what we are trying to doin a conflict situation is to create some
space, some space between whatever is thesituation and us.
Here's why we're trying to create space.
(17:44):
If I take my glasses off for a moment and Itake my hand and I put it right against my
face, right against my eyes, can I seeanything?
I just see a blur.
Right?
Mhmm.
But if I do this, there's a little bit ofspace.
I can examine.
I can see how my hand moves.
And so in having some space, there is acapacity to respond.
(18:05):
That becomes one of the most important,important ways.
You know, there is there is an ancient mysticpoet, Rumi, Persian poet poet, who talks about
there is a space beyond right and wrong.
I'll meet you there.
we have to connect with that space within us,and then everything else arises from that
(18:29):
space.
So, Yelena, what I would like to do is inviteyour listeners and and you to try to practice
this little technique with me.
Is that okay?
Yeah.
Definitely.
With pleasure.
Okay.
So, Yelena, I'm gonna invite you to come intoyou and your listeners to come into a
comfortable seated position.
And so comfortable seated position, if you'resitting in a chair, moving a little bit closer
(18:53):
to the edge.
Now why we're doing that?
We're doing that of all, we're excited to learnsomething new.
Right?
We're on the edge of our seat.
And, also, certainly, I'm speaking with youfrom The United States.
So here, it's right around lunchtime.
I think you're in England.
Right?
So, it's a little bit later in the eveningthere.
(19:15):
And we don't wanna this the point here is notto fall asleep.
Right?
The point here is to develop certain level ofawareness.
And so, Yelena, also, you can, I'm gonna inviteyou to close your eyes and to tune in to your
breath.
Notice the colder air entering the nostrils.
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Notice the warmer air leaving.
And, Yelena, I'm gonna invite you toconsciously make your breath deeper so that the
breath travels to and through the chest, to andthrough the stomach, and to and through the
pelvic floor.
(19:58):
And, Elena, I'm gonna invite you also to pauseas little as possible between each inhale and
each exhale so that the breath can move in onesmooth continuous wave.
Inhale transitions to exhale.
(20:19):
Exhale transitions to inhale.
And, Elena, we're gonna use a very simpleforward English phrase to help us tune in, and
the phrase is I am here now.
And we're gonna combine this phrase with abreath.
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As you inhale, thinking of the word I, exhale,am.
Inhale, here.
Exhale, now.
So I invite you to practice this technique withme.
(21:11):
I am here now reading through the nose.
(21:47):
Now, Yelena, when you and your listeners areready, I'm gonna invite you and them to take a
deep breath in through the nose and hold thebreath at the conclusion of the inhale while
focusing in the area in between your eyebrows.
And then as you exhale fully through the mouth,gently blinking your eyes open.
(22:14):
So let me ask you this, Yelena.
How did this feel to you?
Very
relaxing.
Yes.
Yes.
Now people will ask me, so, Henry, when are wesupposed to do this?
Before, during, or after conflict?
The answer is yes.
We should be breathing all the time.
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But the key here and as we're breathing aswe're breathing, we're gonna ask two critical
questions.
We're gonna ask and bring into awareness twocritical questions.
what is my intention?
And what is the big picture?
(22:57):
What is the big picture?
So, Yelena, I I I'm gonna share with you how,actually, I utilize this very technique in in
conflict, in conflict in a potential conflictscenario and how it helped me to move from
reacting to responding.
So, Yelena, I actually work at a at a at at atat a pretty major research university here in
(23:19):
The United States, Virginia Tech in Virginia.
And I work with faculty and staff, and I directour internal conflict resolution program for
faculty and staff, on issues to deal with withvarious civil rights and, equity concerns.
So several weeks ago, you know, it was Fridayafternoon, and someone emailed me.
(23:42):
And I oh, it was Friday afternoon.
I was tired after a long week.
I opened their email.
And as I read this email, my immediate reactionwas, who do you think you are?
You know, I didn't like the tone of the email.
I thought it was very, very accusatory, and Iwas ready.
Right?
That I that this person was sarcastic, so Ithought, okay.
(24:02):
You think you're clever?
Well, let me show you.
Right?
And then, Elena, I remembered what sometimes myloved ones say to me when when they're
frustrated with me.
Do you know what my loved ones say to me whenthey're frustrated with me?
Yelena, they say to me, Henry, have youconsidered reading your book?
(24:22):
Also, maybe attend some of your trainings.
You know?
Some useful things there.
Mhmm.
So I remembered, ah, what would Henry say?
Right?
So I took just a few moments, and I practicedthis breathing technique.
And by the way, we can even practice this witheyes open.
Right?
It's easier with your eyes closed.
Just I am here now.
(24:47):
And then I reread the email.
And, you know, someone must have done somethingvery sneaky.
As I had my eyes closed and I was breathing,they must have snuck into my office and changed
the whole email.
Because when I read it the time afterbreathing, I saw it completely differently.
Yes.
The person was frustrated.
(25:09):
They weren't frustrated with me.
They were frustrated with the situation.
So then, Yelena, I asked the two criticalquestions that I'm talking about.
What is my intention?
Because the key in conflict, the key inresponding to conflict is that every all of our
interactions become intentional, not merelycompulsive or accidental.
(25:34):
And that's not just thought because, again, ourthoughts can be compulsive and accidental.
Right?
Very much so.
So this is really making especially when we'rewhen we're engaging in interaction.
Right?
What is our intention?
And if we're not clear about our intention, whyare we engaging?
Right?
Why are we engaging if we're not clear aboutour intention?
(25:57):
So that's my question.
What is my intention?
Well, my intention, I'm a mediator.
This person is coming to me for help.
I wanna help them.
So if I send a snarkly response back or reactreaction back to their email, would it actually
help?
Of course, the answer is no.
And then I said, okay.
What is the big picture here?
(26:18):
What is the big picture here?
And the big picture here, you know, was thisthe person was operating within some very
difficult power structures.
And and and this person was from a foreigncountry, and they didn't fully understand these
power structures.
So, again, I could make these power structuresworse or I could make them better.
So just breathing.
(26:39):
Just breathing.
And taking those few moments for me to askthose two questions, what is my intention?
What is the big picture?
Dramatically changed this situation and whetherI would have reacted to it and send, you know,
maybe a clever snarkly email back or now havingthe capacity to respond and looking at this a
(27:04):
little bit deeper.
And because, Yelena, so many of your, clientsare businesses, right, where maybe they're also
dealing with this on an organizational level.
I wanna suggest that on an organizationallevel, be when we engage with conflict, before
we do anything, step is also to tune in.
(27:28):
Now, obviously, at an organizational level,we're not necessarily doing breathing.
But what we are doing on an organizationallevel is we try to tune in to what is truly
important for us.
Who are we as an organization?
What are our core values?
What do they actually mean?
(27:48):
Because once we're connected with that, then wecan respond from our values.
Right?
Which response from the values where we invokethe values, that's always gonna be deeper, more
profound, more long term, and more strategicthan something where we just merely react.
(28:11):
Now in terms of the net do you want me to pausehere?
If you do you have a question, or should I goon to kinda the next skill?
Yeah.
You can go on.
Yeah.
This is really very interesting and profound.
Yes.
Thank you for sharing.
Of course.
Of course.
Yeah.
Yes.
And what I wanted just to tell that justreflecting on what you just shared that that
(28:40):
response also involves compassion.
Yes.
Like, when you start start looking at thesituation with compassion, as you start said
that you took into consideration that theperson was foreigner, that the person didn't
understand many things, then how it also helpsto really help the situation.
(29:01):
Yes.
And the moment would I also notice that, youtook yourself out of equation.
And you you see the situation as a whole, andyou see, like, you are what is your role there?
That you don't take that situations personallyas that person wrote to you and wanted to be
rude, but you look as you are there for whatreason.
(29:25):
What is your role there?
And you respond also through that role thatmakes difference.
Mhmm.
So, Elaine, I'm so glad you brought up andreminded me about compassion because compassion
here is very, very important.
And I wanna define compassion, you know,because we tend to use again, we tend to use
(29:45):
empathy things like empathy and compassioninterchangeably.
And I wanna actually distinguish the twobecause that's very important.
Right?
Because here, Yelena and actually in doing thiswork and doing this work around the world, what
I realized is that we know a lot less aboutother people than we think we do.
(30:10):
We know a lot less about other people than wethink we do.
And so from that, I wanna suggest that the ideathat we can be in another person's shoes is an
illusion.
Right?
Yelena, you and I share you and I both comefrom the same country, the same place.
So we probably have similar conditioning, I'mgonna suspect, in in many ways.
(30:35):
Right?
Having been born in Ukraine, having been bornin, you know, for you, Eastern Ukraine, from
you, Kyiv, being influenced by Russian andUkrainian culture growing up, all of that.
And yet, can I truly even if we're coming fromthe same culture, from the same space, can I
truly say that I could be in your shoes?
(30:56):
He says no.
Right?
And it's and it's kinda dangerous for me andmiddle aged, you know, cisgender white male to
assume that just if you and I lived through thesame experience, my experience of that
experience and your experience of thatexperience are the same, and the impact is the
same.
So, actually, compassion is not about being inanother person's shoes.
(31:21):
The way I define compassion is deep, infiniteconnection with another person's humanity.
Right?
So there is no them.
There is only us.
And this is in many ways where we start goingbeyond identities.
Because our identities, you know, Ukrainian,Russian, Jewish, American, British, in some
(31:46):
ways, these identities are boundaries.
Right?
This can say, okay.
This is mine.
This is yours.
Create separation.
Yes.
All these create
Create separations.
And like like with all boundaries.
Right?
In some ways, they can define us.
And like with all boundaries, there comes atime when they start to to limit and confine
us.
Mhmm.
So peace of compassion is deep, infiniteconnection with another person's humanity.
(32:11):
And then that is combined with the knowledgethat we can never truly experience or know what
someone has lived through.
So there is radical inclusion.
Right?
We don't see people as them.
There is only us.
Right?
It's only us.
We see their humanity.
And, also, we say, you know what?
(32:31):
And I don't know their experience.
Because if I don't know someone else'sexperience, then naturally, we start engaging,
and naturally, we start asking.
Right?
Tell me.
Help me understand.
Help me understand what your experience is.
If I assume that I know your experience.
Right?
If I assume that I know what's better for you,that's where we get immense violence that we
(32:57):
see now for the in in the world.
Why is so much violence happening?
Why is the war happening in our country?
Right?
On on a more spiritual, on a more fundamentallevel, somebody thinks that they know what's
best for for 40 for 38,000,000 people ofUkraine.
Right?
I know better.
(33:18):
That's where that assumption comes from fromthat separation and from that idea.
I know better what someone else needs.
But if I say I don't know these people'sexperience, I need to engage with them.
I have to be careful in assuming then we are incompassion.
Mhmm.
Yes.
Asking and having ability to hear.
(33:41):
Yes?
Yes.
Ability to hear and understand other peopleperspectives.
Yes.
Which brings us actually, Yelena, to the princeto to observation without evaluation.
And what I would like to share with you andwith your listeners is the most important tool
of conflict transformation.
Remember, the one is the breath.
(34:01):
The one is having that spiritual innerpractice, that mindfulness practice so that
we're tuning inward and tuning inward.
And so, naturally, we become more accepting.
Naturally, we become more curious.
Naturally, we become more intentional in all ofour actions.
That's something that naturally starts tohappen when we have that, and that's why it's
(34:25):
so critical.
You know, almost every day, I spend two hoursdoing meditation.
I do this just so that I'm fit for humanconsumption.
And that allows me to be able to by tuning intomyself, I'm able to tune in to other people.
I'm able to just naturally be less reactive.
(34:49):
I'm naturally more curious, more open, moreaccepting, etcetera.
Mhmm.
Sounds like without evaluation, and that'swhere we're gonna talk about listening.
And that's the number number two skill ofconflict transformation.
And I will say this to my students.
I will say it to to a lot of folks that I'mworking with.
If we know how to listen, best leaders bestleaders are not necessarily always, you know,
(35:18):
best managers, best truly amazingtransformational leaders, and foremost, amazing
listeners.
Would you agree?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Alright.
Yeah.
Mhmm.
So let me talk about listening and fourdimensions of compassionate listening.
Because, again, if we're talking aboutcompassion, right, and as we define compassion
(35:40):
as deep infinite connection with anotherperson's humanity, combined with a knowledge we
can never truly experience or know what someonehas lived through.
So now how do we bring this into action?
And we're gonna bring this into action bylistening.
So how do we listen?
So listening is a is a physical process.
(36:02):
Would you agree?
Listening is Mhmm.
It's a process.
Yeah.
Mhmm.
Okay.
So how do we do this?
So, Yelena, I am gonna ask you to do somethingphysical, because that will illustrate
illustrate something very important about thisprocess.
So, Yelena, I'm gonna ask you to take yourtongue and fold it so it forms this kinda
(36:27):
semicircle.
You don't do it with your hand.
You just do it with your tongue.
Okay?
Mhmm.
With your tongue?
Okay?
I'm just illustrating with my hand.
Mhmm.
So now now you you're doing it?
Try to say your name.
I really know.
Alright.
So it becomes it becomes a little bit moredifficult.
So this is actually you you've you've you'veheard the phrase biting your tongue.
(36:51):
Right?
I was biting my tongue to say, have you heardthe phrase?
Mhmm.
Yes?
Like, I'm not I was gonna have you and yourlisteners bite their tongue, but then I
thought, you know, if the headline is peopleare bleeding after listening to Elena's
podcast, that's not a good headline.
So we're gonna follow the tongue.
Why are we doing this?
(37:12):
And this is something that I learned in theHimalayas.
This is what Buddhist monks would do when theywere listening to their master.
Because, actually, very intentionally, we'reclosing off the speaking channel while opening
the listening one.
So, again, if we're trying if everything we'retrying to do is is is to be intentional, right,
we're creating a physical reminder.
(37:34):
We're creating a physical reminder, right, thatnow we have to do actually something physical
to open our mouth.
So some other physical dimensions of listening.
It's very important, and I'm very intentionalwhen I listen to other people.
And especially when this converse well, this ismaybe something a little bit more challenging,
more difficult, that my chest is as open aspossible.
(37:59):
Right?
That at least from the western perspective, inwestern, I mean, Anglo Saxon.
Right?
Britain, US, North America, there is direct eyecontact.
This is something that's very valued.
Direct eye contact.
Because if I'm doing this, right, and you'retalking, I'm immediately already sending a
message to you that I am not here with you.
(38:21):
Right?
Just also also what you're doing just rightnow.
Right?
Supportive nods of the head.
Yes.
Listening.
Right?
I am with you.
So these are all physical dimensions oflistening.
aspect dimension.
So one is physical.
Right?
Folding the tongue, open chest, supportive nodsof the head, or something else that I wanna I
(38:44):
invite people to avoid.
It's very common in the West for people to sitlike this.
Have you seen?
Yeah.
Yes.
Right?
Yeah.
If you and I were in the same room, it would bevery and and let's say the room got a little
chilly.
It would be very natural for us to go likethis.
Why?
We're preventing the inside the outside fromentering us.
(39:07):
Right?
And we're also inadvertently closing us.
Right?
Like, look.
My my spine rolls in.
Right?
Naturally, kind of my body closes.
So what is the message we're sending?
The the message we're sending is I am notactually open to hear what you're saying.
Right?
Yeah.
(39:27):
The chest open, direct eye contact, supportivenods of the head.
dimension of compassionate listening.
We're gonna notice all the times we wannainterrupt the speaker to ask the follow-up
question, to defend ourselves, to say the samething happened to us or to our cousin.
(39:49):
We're gonna notice that, and then here we haveto bite our tongue if we need just so that we
remember not to interrupt.
This is especially critical when theconversation is is more challenging.
When we are in the midst of conflict.
We're gonna listen before trying to interrupt.
(40:10):
Mhmm.
dimension of compassionate listening.
dimension of compassionate listening.
What are we listening for?
Yes.
Words are important.
What's even more important than words, however,is energy, emotion, and intensity behind the
(40:31):
words.
Right?
That's what gives words meaning.
That's what gives words meaning.
It's that energy, emotion, intensity.
And I would even add cultural context culturalcontext for the words.
Right?
Because we're living in a we're and operatingwithin a global environment.
(40:52):
And, of course, a great example of that, thetwo languages that you and I are probably most
familiar with, right, Russian and Ukrainian,both have many words for that describe
suffering.
Right?
And actually very few words that describe joy.
That's a cult it's a cultural context.
(41:13):
Right?
And tell me if I'm getting this wrong.
The final dimension of compassionate listening,and this is very important, we're gonna
summarize the general gist of what the personhad said, and then we're gonna use our voice
and our body to try to capture that energy,emotion, and intensity.
(41:38):
Now sometimes this is where my students willsay to me, Henry, do you mean to sell us that
if someone is yelling, we yell back?
The answer is no.
However, if someone is really animated, youknow, and they're using their hands and they're
talking like this, and I reflect and say whatthey said in this very monotone voice, right,
(41:58):
there's gonna be a mismatch.
There's gonna be a mismatch.
So if someone is very, very animated and maybethey're at a ten, I will meet them at a seven,
but not at a three, but not at a And a criticalsomething that's very, very critical.
Something very critical, Yelena.
(42:19):
As we are listening to people, we're also askedtwo critical questions.
Am I hearing what people intended me to hear?
Are people hearing what I intended them tohear?
Because, again, so often, we're listening notto the person but to our story of the person.
And this is where by summarizing the generalgist of what the person is saying, we can
(42:42):
actually check-in and say, is this what you'resaying?
Is this what I'm hearing you say?
Right now, this is not the same as validating.
We don't have to agree.
We don't have to validate.
We just have to understand what the person issaying.
Right?
And then so often, again, let's say you and Ihad a conflict, and I start saying something,
well, because you and I had a conflict, you'renot necessarily gonna be listening to me.
(43:08):
You're gonna be listening to your story of me.
So if I say to you, Yelena, could you, youknow, could you summarize what you think you
heard me say?
And as I hear you summarize, I may realize whatYelena, sorry.
That's not what I said at all or that's notwhat I meant at all.
K?
Now the next principle, Yelena, the nextprinciple is expansion.
(43:32):
And this is, as I said, where we move, and Iand I very often talk about how most of our
interactions, and I use an iceberg toillustrate this.
Most of our interactions are kind of on the tipat the tip of the iceberg, which is our
positions, which is the most superficial level.
And we never go beyond that.
We never engage with interests, which is why wehold the positions.
(43:53):
We never engage with emotions, right, whichgive the color to to everything that is
happening with us.
We very rarely get to values, and almost neverdo we get to needs.
Right?
Almost never do we get to needs.
And even when we're dealing with internationalconflicts, Russia, Ukraine, Israel, Palestine,
you know, all of those, until and unless we'reable to get to the need underlying needs of the
(44:18):
people involved, we're getting nowhere in anykind of negotiations.
We're getting nowhere in any kind ofnegotiations until there is a deep
acknowledgment of the needs, very human needs,right, of all the groups represented, of all
the people represented in this conflict.
(44:40):
So how do we get from positions to needs?
How do we get from positions to needs?
One of the very, very important aspects ofconflict transformation is how we is asking
questions asking questions.
This is how we start moving from positions toand through needs.
One of the most important questions we can ask,Elena, is not a question that we ask another
(45:04):
party.
One of the most important questions and one ofthe most transformative questions in conflict
we can ask is a question we ask ourselves.
And the question we ask ourselves is, what isit about this person or their situation that I
(45:24):
don't know?
What is it about this person or their situationthat I don't know?
Right?
Because the moment I ask this question, I now Ihave million questions.
Now I have million questions.
See, in western culture, we tend to focus onwhat we know.
(45:45):
We tend to focus on knowledge.
We tend to value knowledge.
Right?
Our knowledge, however, is always gonna belimited.
Our ignorance is limitless.
I'd rather focus on ignorance, right, if wefocus on what we don't know.
And as we ask what we don't know, we also ask,what is it that we do know?
Right?
(46:06):
That we make this very clear distinction.
What is it that we don't know, and what is itthat we actually do know about the situation?
Now, Yelena, when we get to the final step, thestep of exploration, this is where we bring
curiosity into conflict.
Right?
And curiosity is very diff it's very difficultto be curious when we are afraid.
(46:31):
Curiosity and fear don't mix well.
Right?
And that's where that step becomes soimportant, tuning inward.
Because the more we tune inward, the more we'reable to identify what is truly arising for us
and then shift that.
Shift fear into curiosity.
(46:53):
And then move away from the binary.
And in most conflicts, people will say, well,what is the binary?
Right versus wrong.
Right?
That's actually not correct.
How often do you get in conflict with otherpeople when you think you're wrong?
I'm wrong, and I'm gonna be in conflict withyou.
And the answer is no.
Right?
It's you think you're right, and I think I'mright.
(47:16):
Russia thinks it's right, and Ukraine thinksit's right.
Right?
And there's a conflict.
So it's right versus right.
And we move away from that from that two sidedbinary approach, and we start engaging with
complexity, nuance, ambiguity, and uncertaintyinherent in every single one of us as human
beings and therefore inherent in every singleone of our interactions.
(47:41):
So, Yelena, can I tell you and your listeners astory that really illustrates that?
And Yeah.
That illustrates that illustrates how we engagethat dimension and then also brings us to
another question, another powerful questionthat we ask.
Right?
Because so often so much about conflicttransformation is about asking powerful
(48:04):
questions as you have been doing here.
So this happened in The Middle East.
This happened in The Middle East.
Old man dies, and he leaves his entireinheritance to his three children.
Now his inheritance, Hila, and it consists of17 camels.
17 camels.
(48:26):
So he has three children.
The oldest son, you know, it's The Middle East.
The oldest son is preferred.
The oldest son gets one half one half of theinheritance.
Right?
He has a middle son, and the middle son gets 1of the inheritance.
And then he has a daughter.
And the daughter, well, you know, what happensto daughters everywhere?
(48:48):
Sometimes daughters, right, get the shorter endof the stick.
So the daughter gets 1 of the inheritance.
So, Yelena, we have a problem, don't we?
We have 17 camels.
Right?
Is 17 divisible by two?
It's not.
Is 17 divisible by three?
(49:09):
No.
Right?
Is 17 divisible by nine?
It's not.
So what to do?
So siblings are arguing.
You know, they're they're they're developing aconflict.
These these things are escalating.
You know, there were other people are gettingdrawn in.
People are taking sides, and they're gettingnowhere.
And finally, someone says, you know, you oughtto go see this other this wise woman in the
(49:35):
neighboring village.
Maybe Maybe she could help you.
So the siblings at this point are desperate.
They have nothing else to do.
They go see this woman, and they're kind ofunimpressed.
All she's doing is just asking them somequestions.
She's listening, and then she says, you know, Idon't know if I could help you.
Let me think about it.
So a few days go by, and the woman shows up inthe village where the siblings are living, and
(50:02):
she's not showing up alone.
She's bringing another camel with her, and shegathers the siblings.
And she says, look.
I don't know if I could help you, but, youknow, my family has been very, very successful.
I have this other camel that, you know, myfamily is not using.
Maybe you could use it as well.
(50:23):
So now the siblings have 18 camels.
Now we're gonna do some math.
Right, Elena?
Are you ready?
Mhmm.
Okay.
So so now we have 18 camels.
Okay.
So 18 divided by two.
Nine.
Nine.
So the oldest brother gets nine camels.
Right?
Mhmm.
(50:43):
18 divided by three.
Six.
Six.
And 18 divided by 9?
2.
Okay.
So 962 is what?
It is 961517.
17.
And that and and and and and and this isconflict transformation.
(51:07):
Right?
So what did the woman do here?
She didn't tell the siblings what to do.
She enabled them to look at the situationdifferently where actually they realized that
they had everything that they needed to fromthe start to resolve the situation.
So what is the fundamental question that thewoman asked?
(51:29):
The fundamental question that the woman askedis what is possible?
What is possible?
Because when we ask the question what ispossible, right, we engage our creativity.
Otherwise, we operate within limited parametersof maybe what has happened before.
(51:49):
The moment we ask a question, what is possible?
We naturally expand.
Right?
And then we can develop our creativity, andthen we can brainstorm, and then we can do all
these things that we're doing.
And that's how we start bringing creativityinto and curiosity into conflict.
(52:11):
We ask this question.
What is possible?
Yeah.
Very interesting.
I really appreciate such a good illustrationof, looking at things from different
perspectives.
Yes.
So when you something that can seem impossibleto solve, when you just change perspective, you
(52:33):
can find the solution.
Mhmm.
So
this very wise to look at things from differentperspectives and, open your mind and see what
is possible.
Yeah.
What can be so what solution can be found?
Because people just say, oh, it is impossible.
Like, as initially, 17 is impossible to divideby three or impossible to divide by two.
(53:01):
Right?
But when we look at a different perspective, itbecomes possible.
Yes.
So so great, example of this wisdom.
Yes.
And, Elena and sometimes for us to get thatperspective and this is very important.
We sometimes physically have to move space.
Right?
(53:22):
Physically, we we we have to we have to changeour positions.
We have to move.
And this is also sometimes, you know, when whenwhen maybe when your clients, you know, are
dealing with difficult negotiations, difficultconflict, sometimes gaining a new perspective
actually means we have to physically move to adifferent place, location so that we can maybe
(53:43):
see things differently.
That sometimes can be very, very crucial.
That sometimes could be very, very crucial interms of how we think about a conflict
situation.
Yes.
I learned this from Napoleon Hill where heexplained Yeah.
This principle of mastermind.
Yes.
And even, like, he said that somebody didn'thave that mastermind, but he created it in his
(54:08):
mind, and he invited important people whodidn't live already.
Like, for example, Abraham Lincoln or AndrewCarnegie or
Mhmm.
Thomas Edison.
Yes.
And he was asking them questions.
(54:28):
What what what they would say if they were atthe table?
So he mentally created the table and put therein his mind, imagination, all these people.
And then he was physically sitting at each ofthem place, moving physically around the table
(54:49):
and sitting at their place to connect to themand just connect to their mind and see at that
situation problem which he wanted to solve fromtheir point of view.
Yes.
This is reminded me about this that, yeah,physical that you don't just look at from your
place.
You just go around the table.
And, also, Bob Proctor, who was my mentor, healso shared this about when we learned about
(55:14):
perspect perception.
He said that whenever you have a problem, ofall, write it on the paper.
Take it out of your head.
Write it on the paper with all, details, like,as as more details as you can.
Just take this all out so it is not in yourhead.
(55:35):
And then put this paper in the middle of thetable, and then look at this situation from
your perspective.
Yeah.
This is situation.
This happened.
This, this, this, all details.
Then move and sit in another place and see say,what if that would be, let's say, I don't know
(55:59):
Mhmm.
John Kennedy or whatever.
Right.
How he would look and anybody else how he wouldlook.
And moving like this and just looking at thingsfrom different people perspectives can open
that big huge depth zone of, possible,solutions, which we might not see when we look
(56:22):
at things only from our point of view.
And I think even beyond that, Elena, evenbeyond that, sometimes the exercise I have
people do is and and this is by the way, eventhe exercise, you know, I've done with my
students even with Russia and Ukraine.
Right?
So someone asked me, okay.
(56:43):
If I was a mediator for this conflict and look.
I this conflict is nowhere in the place whereit's ready to be mediated before some I also
wanna acknowledge something.
Right?
Before something is mediated, there has to beaccountability and responsibility.
Right?
There has to be accountability.
There has to be shared humanity.
We cannot be just negotiating, when when whenwhen that is not present.
(57:07):
However, once that is present, the place Iwould start is what would it take for Vladimir
Putin and Vladimir Zelensky to both delivervictory speeches?
What would it take for these two leaders,right, at war, at a very intense war, to
(57:33):
deliver victory speeches?
In delivering victory speeches where the ruleis the rule is it's not just, okay, complete
annihilation of the other.
It's what are their needs, and is there a wayto find to meet their needs and needs of their
respective people without taking away fromsomeone else?
(57:56):
Can we find that camel?
And so sometimes it's even you know, when weare in conflict with with with people, with
with with with other entities, where we beginand how we change the perspective is we
actually write out a victory speech from theirperspective.
(58:16):
What is it that they're seeking?
Can we truly understand not only theirposition, but their interests, their emotions,
their values, and their needs?
And if we can, right, if we can, then insteadof negotiating, from positional level, instead
(58:38):
of negotiating from domination, who is gonnadominate the other person more?
None of these things ever gonna last, right, ifit's purely based on power and domination.
We start negotiation from the needs.
What are the fundamental needs, and how can wemeet them?
And how can we get to the place where we havethe camel, right, where we're not where
(59:00):
everyone is able to get what they need withouttaking away from someone else.
Yes.
I I wish everyone would, would listen to ourpodcast and learn from you, especially those
politicians, yes, who now affect so many manypeople lives, unfortunately, in negative way.
(59:26):
Right.
Yes.
Thank you so much, Hendri.
It was such amazing conversation we had, andI'm sure that it is a lot to learn.
And everyone can listen to this many timesbecause there's so many lessons which you
shared from your experience.
Thank you so much.
And I'm looking forward to meet you again so wecan record more conversations.
(59:53):
Sounds great, Elena.
And if I may just mention, you know, if youlisteners are looking to connect with me, I am
I am online.
I'm on LinkedIn.
I'm on Instagram.
My web page is www.livingpeaceinstitute.com.
And, also, I have this book, out.
It's called dissolving conflict from within, aninner path for conflict transformation.
(01:00:17):
It's available worldwide on Amazon on Amazonaudio.
It's available in North America everywherebooks are sold, in all major book retailers.
So thank you.
Yeah.
Thank you so much for sharing.
We will put all your contacts, how people canfind you in the description of this video.
And, of course, I'm sure that your book has somuch to learn from.
(01:00:42):
Yes.
Thank you so much, Henry.
Okay.
Thank you.
You're most welcome.
Hello.
Hello.
Welcome to mindset to results.
Today, we have, Henry Jan Janpolski, who is theguest at our show.
And we will discuss very, very important topic,and it is responding to conflict with clarity,
(00:25):
strength, and compassion.
Hi, Henry.
Hello, Elena.
How are you?
I am great.
It was great to know that you are from Ukrainewhere we would meet.
Yes.
Yes.
I am I am from Ukraine.
I came to The United States in 1994, So I'vebeen living in a in in The US for a very long
(00:46):
time, but I am I am originally from Ukraine,from Kyiv.
Yeah.
Very good to know that.
Yeah.
So let's discuss this important topic fordriven business owners and entrepreneurs
because conflicts can happen.
Yes.
They happen.
And it is so important to know how we cantransform the conflict to the situation with
(01:11):
compassion, clarity, and strength.
Yeah.
So, let's start from sharing about you.
Tell us a little bit about you, what you do,and how did you come to this, what you do now.
Mhmm.
Yes.
It was it was quite a journey.
So, Yelena, as I as I mentioned, I came,originally from Ukraine to The United States.
(01:34):
I was 14 in 1994.
And and and life for me and my parents wasquite difficult.
We lived in a small a relatively small town inPennsylvania where just very few immigrants in
this town.
And so I thought if I'd become a lawyer, Icould be the voice for people like my parents.
(01:55):
And so I became a lawyer.
And for many years, I practiced law inPhiladelphia.
I did a lot of work with civil rights and laboremployment.
But after about seven seven or eight years ofpractice, I came to a point where I was quite
burned out and also were to a point where I wasvery frustrated with the system, the
(02:18):
traditional, you know, British Anglo Saxonsystem of laws and courts because I I I thought
it was quite violent.
I thought it was quite binary.
I thought it was very difficult to truly hearsomeone's voice.
Everything was based in power and and all ofthose things.
(02:39):
And so then it was at that time, Elena, that Istarted searching for different or alternative
ways to approach conflict, to approach even mywork as a lawyer.
And through a series of transformative events,personally transformative events, I ended up in
India, and India has had a very, very profoundand deep influence on me.
(03:05):
At this point, I've been there 20 times.
I connected very, very deeply with Gandhi'steachings on nonviolence.
I connected very, very deeply with traditionalyogic teachings on conflict, and that began to
shape what I ended up doing.
So so it was after my trip to India that Istarted trainings in mediation.
(03:30):
I completed number of trainings in mediation,collaborative law, coaching, different
different approaches and different ways toapproach conflict.
And through that, through my experiences inIndia, through my personal spiritual practice,
developed from this experience, emerged anapproach to conflict, to conflict
(03:51):
transformation that I see as very integral totransforming our conflict interactions.
And this approach ultimately is the mostimportant of this.
It's not what we do in conflict, but actuallyhow we show up how we show up.
And so as a result of this work and as aresult, my personal spiritual practice is
(04:16):
result is a result of really going very, verydeep into a lot of the eastern teachings on
conflict.
I developed or or really, maybe maybe developedis not the right the the right word.
I communicated four principles of conflicttransformation, which enable us to shift our
(04:40):
conflict interactions and to shift fromreacting to conflict with fear, with avoidance,
with aggression, to responding with strength,with clarity, and with compassion.
Yeah.
Thank you for sharing your experience.
It is very interesting how different culturesis give opportunities to look at things from
(05:05):
different perspective.
Yeah.
It took you to go to India outside of, yourenvironment to find different perspectives,
yeah, different way how to look at conflictsituation.
So let's speak about the causes.
What you think are the causes of conflicts?
(05:26):
You see, causes and ultimately I I I viewconflict very, very broadly.
And I will suggest, Elena, that what causesconflict is really anything that changes our
story because we process life throughnarrative.
Ultimately, we have a narrative that we run allthe time.
(05:49):
Right?
And that's and and that's how we process.
We process life by telling a narrativenarrative about it.
And so conflict really is anything thatchallenges our narrative.
And here, Elena, we also need to make adistinction, between reacting and responding
(06:10):
because in English, we tend to use these wordsinterchangeably.
And I wanna suggest that, actually, they havevery, very different meanings.
So what is a reaction?
Reaction is our attempt to escape or controlwhoever or whatever is triggering us.
So whenever our story is challenged wheneverour story is challenged, most of the time,
(06:34):
actually, even from the perspective ofneuropsychology, the brain activity transitions
from the prefrontal cortex, which is thelargest part of a brain, to the brain stem.
And a brain stem is really capable, of kind ofpreprogrammed fight or flight type reactions.
(06:54):
And that's and that's the nature of thereaction.
It's essentially a software.
It's something that we are conditioned to do,and it's escape or control whoever or whatever
is triggering us.
So then what is a response?
Response is an action that is appropriate forthe situation, which arises from an undisturbed
(07:18):
state.
So key here is not actually what we do, butwhere the doing is coming from, what state
we're in.
And to give you an example and to give yourlisteners an example, Yelena, you know, suppose
when we're dealing with a two year old two orthree year old child.
You know, a two or three year old child is achild that is fascinating because that's the
(07:42):
age that children learn that people havebuttons.
And, you know, if you press differentcombinations of buttons, sometimes fun things
happen, sometimes not so fun things happen.
And so they're experimenting.
Right?
They try to press different buttons and seewhat will happen.
So let's say you're with a two or three yearold child, and maybe the child is doing
(08:04):
something, and, you know, and you are lookingat this, and you can say, wow.
That what they're doing is kinda clever.
Right?
It takes some ingenuity.
It takes some understanding.
It takes some planning.
But then maybe as an adult, you have to raiseyour voice, so you have to bring the child
back, you know, just just just to set thatboundary.
But, actually, you're really not mad.
(08:26):
You're not mad.
You're not angry at that child.
You're not gonna stop loving that child.
But maybe for purposes of the situation, youneed to take the appropriate action where you
act angry or mad, and that's the nature of aresponse.
There is clarity.
There is ease.
There is peace and and a and and even possiblyjoy inside as we take the action that is
(08:50):
necessary and appropriate for the situation,and that's the nature of the response.
And in much of my work, what I do is reallyhelp people to move from reacting to conflict
to responding.
Mhmm.
Yeah.
(09:11):
So true.
Because reacting, it doesn't doesn't takethinking process.
It is just automatic reaction.
Why it is called reacting?
Yeah.
Because it just happens on autopilot.
And, if people react without thinking whatthey're doing or what they're saying, they can
hurt somebody.
(09:32):
They can do something bad that they will regretlater.
Yeah.
So when responding, we think Yeah.
We think and think, like, what is the best wayto address the situation?
And then we respond from the place how we wantthe situation to be handled.
(09:53):
Yeah.
And this is, as for me, it's such a bigdifference between reacting and responding.
Usually, people react just based on their fivesenses.
Yes.
This ability to see, hear, taste, and smell andtouch, And this is how people usually live
based on just physical senses.
And they just act like, like machines, likecomputer, yeah, or action direction or animals.
(10:18):
Yes.
But what makes people really be the highestform of creation, which are humans supposed to
be, is this using their high mental facultiessuch as reasoning, yes, perception, ability to
look at the situation from different point ofview and and then respond.
Yes.
Not just risk react without reasoning.
(10:42):
This is also so big difference between peopleand animals' ability to reason, to think, and,
also to to solve situation with compassion.
Yes.
Understanding and thinking why that person didthat, it also makes very big difference in
conflict solving.
(11:02):
Yes.
Could could I actually maybe, maybe challengesomething that you said just a little bit?
Because it's not I I I I I wanna make clearthat the difference between reaction and
response is not just a thought.
Right?
Thoughts can be quite compulsive too.
It's where the thoughts are coming from.
So we go even be to some extent, we need to gobeyond thought.
(11:25):
Right?
It's not just that we think about somethingbecause, again, if our thoughts our our our
thoughts can be just as reactive as ouractions.
It's not the different it's not just that we,in responding, we think.
It's in responding.
We're acting from a different space.
Right?
From a difference from a space of ease.
(11:48):
And and from that space, it's more it's morethan just thinking.
And this is, Helena, where we start gettinginto four principles of conflict
transformation.
And this and this is really, really becomesvery, very essential for this.
So what are the four principles of conflicttransformation?
(12:08):
one is tuning inward.
Tuning inward.
Now tuning inward is not thinking.
It's not thinking.
Tuning inward is actually where we talk aboutmindfulness.
However, very western idea of mindfulness isthat we do mindfulness to feel better.
Right?
We do meditation.
We do yoga to feel better.
(12:31):
My invitation is that we start doing this toget better at feeling.
So, actually, we're able to be with whatever isarising.
Whatever is arising.
Sometimes it's pleasant.
Sometimes it's not.
Whatever is happening, whatever is thesituation happening, we're just able to tune in
(12:52):
and be with it.
Be with it without trying to fix it, withouttrying to change it, without trying to even
analyze it.
Just be with this.
Really tune in and connect with our feelings,with our values.
And if we're talking about even onorganizational levels, this is what I even work
with organizations and and and and and and andcompanies tuning inward.
(13:14):
What is truly important?
What is truly who are we?
Who are we as an organization?
Who are we as this community?
What are our core values?
Now after turning inward after turning inward,where we go in the principle is observation
without evaluation.
(13:36):
Observation without evaluation.
Fundamentally, this is about how we listen.
The purest form of observation withoutevaluation is listening.
So if we want to transform our conflictinteractions and one of the and most important
skills that I teach my students is how tolisten.
(13:57):
How to listen where listening itself becomes aspiritual practice.
Now most of us, if we're really honest if we'rereally honest, when we are engaging with other
people and especially if the engagement in anyway challenges us, we actually are not
listening to the person.
We're listening to our narrative, our story ofthe person.
(14:22):
Once we so to so so once we do tuning inwardand we develop that awareness between actually
listening to what the person is saying andlistening to our story of that person, that can
fundamentally shift how we engage with people.
The principle is expansion.
(14:44):
The principle is expansion.
When we are in conflict, our focus becomes verynarrow.
We're focused on past grievance or on futureanxiety, and very often, we don't see anything
else.
Expansion means also we start moving frompositions because most of our interactions are
(15:05):
purely positional.
And especially now in this day and age when wetend to be so reductionist, most of our
interactions are purely positional.
Meaning, someone states a position and beforethey're done, they're already being attacked.
They're already being called a name.
And we need to expand, move from positions toand through interests, to to and through
(15:27):
emotions, to and through values, and finallyand most importantly, to needs.
So understanding the true needs in conflict.
And final principle is exploration, and this iswhere we engage with curiosity, bring in
curiosity into conflict, and also engage withcomplexity, nuance, ambiguity, uncertainty
(15:51):
inherent in every single one of us as humanbeings and therefore inherent in every single
one of our human interactions.
Yes.
It is very deep, deep, profound understanding,the difference between reaction and, response.
(16:12):
Mhmm.
So how people can how can people can, implementthis in practice?
Sure.
Sure.
So I think from implement in terms ofimplementing this in practice actually, what I
will say to my students and what I will say tomost people that I work with, actually, one of
(16:36):
the most important tools of conflicttransformation, this is where we start with the
very step, right, with the very with with thevery principle, tuning inward.
One of the most important tools of conflicttransformation is breath, and I didn't I didn't
misspeak.
I didn't have anything funny for lunch.
What I said is exactly what I mean.
(16:58):
It's breath.
Why?
Because most of the time, we have no control ofwhat someone else is doing.
What is the biggest difference in term betweenreacting and responding?
It's how we are.
Right?
It's how we are in that moment.
So, Yelena, if you would like, I'm happy toshare with your listeners a very, very simple
(17:24):
breathing technique that can help us shift howwe are in a conflict situation.
Because, ultimately, what we are trying to doin a conflict situation is to create some
space, some space between whatever is thesituation and us.
Here's why we're trying to create space.
(17:44):
If I take my glasses off for a moment and Itake my hand and I put it right against my
face, right against my eyes, can I seeanything?
I just see a blur.
Right?
Mhmm.
But if I do this, there's a little bit ofspace.
I can examine.
I can see how my hand moves.
And so in having some space, there is acapacity to respond.
(18:05):
That becomes one of the most important,important ways.
You know, there is there is an ancient mysticpoet, Rumi, Persian poet poet, who talks about
there is a space beyond right and wrong.
I'll meet you there.
we have to connect with that space within us,and then everything else arises from that
(18:29):
space.
So, Yelena, what I would like to do is inviteyour listeners and and you to try to practice
this little technique with me.
Is that okay?
Yeah.
Definitely.
With pleasure.
Okay.
So, Yelena, I'm gonna invite you to come intoyou and your listeners to come into a
comfortable seated position.
And so comfortable seated position, if you'resitting in a chair, moving a little bit closer
(18:53):
to the edge.
Now why we're doing that?
We're doing that of all, we're excited to learnsomething new.
Right?
We're on the edge of our seat.
And, also, certainly, I'm speaking with youfrom The United States.
So here, it's right around lunchtime.
I think you're in England.
Right?
So, it's a little bit later in the eveningthere.
(19:15):
And we don't wanna this the point here is notto fall asleep.
Right?
The point here is to develop certain level ofawareness.
And so, Yelena, also, you can, I'm gonna inviteyou to close your eyes and to tune in to your
breath.
Notice the colder air entering the nostrils.
(19:36):
Notice the warmer air leaving.
And, Yelena, I'm gonna invite you toconsciously make your breath deeper so that the
breath travels to and through the chest, to andthrough the stomach, and to and through the
pelvic floor.
(19:58):
And, Elena, I'm gonna invite you also to pauseas little as possible between each inhale and
each exhale so that the breath can move in onesmooth continuous wave.
Inhale transitions to exhale.
(20:19):
Exhale transitions to inhale.
And, Elena, we're gonna use a very simpleforward English phrase to help us tune in, and
the phrase is I am here now.
And we're gonna combine this phrase with abreath.
(20:41):
As you inhale, thinking of the word I, exhale,am.
Inhale, here.
Exhale, now.
So I invite you to practice this technique withme.
(21:11):
I am here now reading through the nose.
(21:47):
Now, Yelena, when you and your listeners areready, I'm gonna invite you and them to take a
deep breath in through the nose and hold thebreath at the conclusion of the inhale while
focusing in the area in between your eyebrows.
And then as you exhale fully through the mouth,gently blinking your eyes open.
(22:14):
So let me ask you this, Yelena.
How did this feel to you?
Very
relaxing.
Yes.
Yes.
Now people will ask me, so, Henry, when are wesupposed to do this?
Before, during, or after conflict?
The answer is yes.
We should be breathing all the time.
(22:37):
But the key here and as we're breathing aswe're breathing, we're gonna ask two critical
questions.
We're gonna ask and bring into awareness twocritical questions.
what is my intention?
And what is the big picture?
(22:57):
What is the big picture?
So, Yelena, I I I'm gonna share with you how,actually, I utilize this very technique in in
conflict, in conflict in a potential conflictscenario and how it helped me to move from
reacting to responding.
So, Yelena, I actually work at a at a at at atat a pretty major research university here in
(23:19):
The United States, Virginia Tech in Virginia.
And I work with faculty and staff, and I directour internal conflict resolution program for
faculty and staff, on issues to deal with withvarious civil rights and, equity concerns.
So several weeks ago, you know, it was Fridayafternoon, and someone emailed me.
(23:42):
And I oh, it was Friday afternoon.
I was tired after a long week.
I opened their email.
And as I read this email, my immediate reactionwas, who do you think you are?
You know, I didn't like the tone of the email.
I thought it was very, very accusatory, and Iwas ready.
Right?
That I that this person was sarcastic, so Ithought, okay.
(24:02):
You think you're clever?
Well, let me show you.
Right?
And then, Elena, I remembered what sometimes myloved ones say to me when when they're
frustrated with me.
Do you know what my loved ones say to me whenthey're frustrated with me?
Yelena, they say to me, Henry, have youconsidered reading your book?
(24:22):
Also, maybe attend some of your trainings.
You know?
Some useful things there.
Mhmm.
So I remembered, ah, what would Henry say?
Right?
So I took just a few moments, and I practicedthis breathing technique.
And by the way, we can even practice this witheyes open.
Right?
It's easier with your eyes closed.
Just I am here now.
(24:47):
And then I reread the email.
And, you know, someone must have done somethingvery sneaky.
As I had my eyes closed and I was breathing,they must have snuck into my office and changed
the whole email.
Because when I read it the time afterbreathing, I saw it completely differently.
Yes.
The person was frustrated.
(25:09):
They weren't frustrated with me.
They were frustrated with the situation.
So then, Yelena, I asked the two criticalquestions that I'm talking about.
What is my intention?
Because the key in conflict, the key inresponding to conflict is that every all of our
interactions become intentional, not merelycompulsive or accidental.
(25:34):
And that's not just thought because, again, ourthoughts can be compulsive and accidental.
Right?
Very much so.
So this is really making especially when we'rewhen we're engaging in interaction.
Right?
What is our intention?
And if we're not clear about our intention, whyare we engaging?
Right?
Why are we engaging if we're not clear aboutour intention?
(25:57):
So that's my question.
What is my intention?
Well, my intention, I'm a mediator.
This person is coming to me for help.
I wanna help them.
So if I send a snarkly response back or reactreaction back to their email, would it actually
help?
Of course, the answer is no.
And then I said, okay.
What is the big picture here?
(26:18):
What is the big picture here?
And the big picture here, you know, was thisthe person was operating within some very
difficult power structures.
And and and this person was from a foreigncountry, and they didn't fully understand these
power structures.
So, again, I could make these power structuresworse or I could make them better.
So just breathing.
(26:39):
Just breathing.
And taking those few moments for me to askthose two questions, what is my intention?
What is the big picture?
Dramatically changed this situation and whetherI would have reacted to it and send, you know,
maybe a clever snarkly email back or now havingthe capacity to respond and looking at this a
(27:04):
little bit deeper.
And because, Yelena, so many of your, clientsare businesses, right, where maybe they're also
dealing with this on an organizational level.
I wanna suggest that on an organizationallevel, be when we engage with conflict, before
we do anything, step is also to tune in.
(27:28):
Now, obviously, at an organizational level,we're not necessarily doing breathing.
But what we are doing on an organizationallevel is we try to tune in to what is truly
important for us.
Who are we as an organization?
What are our core values?
What do they actually mean?
(27:48):
Because once we're connected with that, then wecan respond from our values.
Right?
Which response from the values where we invokethe values, that's always gonna be deeper, more
profound, more long term, and more strategicthan something where we just merely react.
(28:11):
Now in terms of the net do you want me to pausehere?
If you do you have a question, or should I goon to kinda the next skill?
Yeah.
You can go on.
Yeah.
This is really very interesting and profound.
Yes.
Thank you for sharing.
Of course.
Of course.
Yeah.
Yes.
And what I wanted just to tell that justreflecting on what you just shared that that
(28:40):
response also involves compassion.
Yes.
Like, when you start start looking at thesituation with compassion, as you start said
that you took into consideration that theperson was foreigner, that the person didn't
understand many things, then how it also helpsto really help the situation.
(29:01):
Yes.
And the moment would I also notice that, youtook yourself out of equation.
And you you see the situation as a whole, andyou see, like, you are what is your role there?
That you don't take that situations personallyas that person wrote to you and wanted to be
rude, but you look as you are there for whatreason.
(29:25):
What is your role there?
And you respond also through that role thatmakes difference.
Mhmm.
So, Elaine, I'm so glad you brought up andreminded me about compassion because compassion
here is very, very important.
And I wanna define compassion, you know,because we tend to use again, we tend to use
(29:45):
empathy things like empathy and compassioninterchangeably.
And I wanna actually distinguish the twobecause that's very important.
Right?
Because here, Yelena and actually in doing thiswork and doing this work around the world, what
I realized is that we know a lot less aboutother people than we think we do.
(30:10):
We know a lot less about other people than wethink we do.
And so from that, I wanna suggest that the ideathat we can be in another person's shoes is an
illusion.
Right?
Yelena, you and I share you and I both comefrom the same country, the same place.
So we probably have similar conditioning, I'mgonna suspect, in in many ways.
(30:35):
Right?
Having been born in Ukraine, having been bornin, you know, for you, Eastern Ukraine, from
you, Kyiv, being influenced by Russian andUkrainian culture growing up, all of that.
And yet, can I truly even if we're coming fromthe same culture, from the same space, can I
truly say that I could be in your shoes?
(30:56):
He says no.
Right?
And it's and it's kinda dangerous for me andmiddle aged, you know, cisgender white male to
assume that just if you and I lived through thesame experience, my experience of that
experience and your experience of thatexperience are the same, and the impact is the
same.
So, actually, compassion is not about being inanother person's shoes.
(31:21):
The way I define compassion is deep, infiniteconnection with another person's humanity.
Right?
So there is no them.
There is only us.
And this is in many ways where we start goingbeyond identities.
Because our identities, you know, Ukrainian,Russian, Jewish, American, British, in some
(31:46):
ways, these identities are boundaries.
Right?
This can say, okay.
This is mine.
This is yours.
Create separation.
Yes.
All these create
Create separations.
And like like with all boundaries.
Right?
In some ways, they can define us.
And like with all boundaries, there comes atime when they start to to limit and confine
us.
Mhmm.
So peace of compassion is deep, infiniteconnection with another person's humanity.
(32:11):
And then that is combined with the knowledgethat we can never truly experience or know what
someone has lived through.
So there is radical inclusion.
Right?
We don't see people as them.
There is only us.
Right?
It's only us.
We see their humanity.
And, also, we say, you know what?
(32:31):
And I don't know their experience.
Because if I don't know someone else'sexperience, then naturally, we start engaging,
and naturally, we start asking.
Right?
Tell me.
Help me understand.
Help me understand what your experience is.
If I assume that I know your experience.
Right?
If I assume that I know what's better for you,that's where we get immense violence that we
(32:57):
see now for the in in the world.
Why is so much violence happening?
Why is the war happening in our country?
Right?
On on a more spiritual, on a more fundamentallevel, somebody thinks that they know what's
best for for 40 for 38,000,000 people ofUkraine.
Right?
I know better.
(33:18):
That's where that assumption comes from fromthat separation and from that idea.
I know better what someone else needs.
But if I say I don't know these people'sexperience, I need to engage with them.
I have to be careful in assuming then we are incompassion.
Mhmm.
Yes.
Asking and having ability to hear.
(33:41):
Yes?
Yes.
Ability to hear and understand other peopleperspectives.
Yes.
Which brings us actually, Yelena, to the princeto to observation without evaluation.
And what I would like to share with you andwith your listeners is the most important tool
of conflict transformation.
Remember, the one is the breath.
(34:01):
The one is having that spiritual innerpractice, that mindfulness practice so that
we're tuning inward and tuning inward.
And so, naturally, we become more accepting.
Naturally, we become more curious.
Naturally, we become more intentional in all ofour actions.
That's something that naturally starts tohappen when we have that, and that's why it's
(34:25):
so critical.
You know, almost every day, I spend two hoursdoing meditation.
I do this just so that I'm fit for humanconsumption.
And that allows me to be able to by tuning intomyself, I'm able to tune in to other people.
I'm able to just naturally be less reactive.
(34:49):
I'm naturally more curious, more open, moreaccepting, etcetera.
Mhmm.
Sounds like without evaluation, and that'swhere we're gonna talk about listening.
And that's the number number two skill ofconflict transformation.
And I will say this to my students.
I will say it to to a lot of folks that I'mworking with.
If we know how to listen, best leaders bestleaders are not necessarily always, you know,
(35:18):
best managers, best truly amazingtransformational leaders, and foremost, amazing
listeners.
Would you agree?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Alright.
Yeah.
Mhmm.
So let me talk about listening and fourdimensions of compassionate listening.
Because, again, if we're talking aboutcompassion, right, and as we define compassion
(35:40):
as deep infinite connection with anotherperson's humanity, combined with a knowledge we
can never truly experience or know what someonehas lived through.
So now how do we bring this into action?
And we're gonna bring this into action bylistening.
So how do we listen?
So listening is a is a physical process.
(36:02):
Would you agree?
Listening is Mhmm.
It's a process.
Yeah.
Mhmm.
Okay.
So how do we do this?
So, Yelena, I am gonna ask you to do somethingphysical, because that will illustrate
illustrate something very important about thisprocess.
So, Yelena, I'm gonna ask you to take yourtongue and fold it so it forms this kinda
(36:27):
semicircle.
You don't do it with your hand.
You just do it with your tongue.
Okay?
Mhmm.
With your tongue?
Okay?
I'm just illustrating with my hand.
Mhmm.
So now now you you're doing it?
Try to say your name.
I really know.
Alright.
So it becomes it becomes a little bit moredifficult.
So this is actually you you've you've you'veheard the phrase biting your tongue.
(36:51):
Right?
I was biting my tongue to say, have you heardthe phrase?
Mhmm.
Yes?
Like, I'm not I was gonna have you and yourlisteners bite their tongue, but then I
thought, you know, if the headline is peopleare bleeding after listening to Elena's
podcast, that's not a good headline.
So we're gonna follow the tongue.
Why are we doing this?
(37:12):
And this is something that I learned in theHimalayas.
This is what Buddhist monks would do when theywere listening to their master.
Because, actually, very intentionally, we'reclosing off the speaking channel while opening
the listening one.
So, again, if we're trying if everything we'retrying to do is is is to be intentional, right,
we're creating a physical reminder.
(37:34):
We're creating a physical reminder, right, thatnow we have to do actually something physical
to open our mouth.
So some other physical dimensions of listening.
It's very important, and I'm very intentionalwhen I listen to other people.
And especially when this converse well, this ismaybe something a little bit more challenging,
more difficult, that my chest is as open aspossible.
(37:59):
Right?
That at least from the western perspective, inwestern, I mean, Anglo Saxon.
Right?
Britain, US, North America, there is direct eyecontact.
This is something that's very valued.
Direct eye contact.
Because if I'm doing this, right, and you'retalking, I'm immediately already sending a
message to you that I am not here with you.
(38:21):
Right?
Just also also what you're doing just rightnow.
Right?
Supportive nods of the head.
Yes.
Listening.
Right?
I am with you.
So these are all physical dimensions oflistening.
aspect dimension.
So one is physical.
Right?
Folding the tongue, open chest, supportive nodsof the head, or something else that I wanna I
(38:44):
invite people to avoid.
It's very common in the West for people to sitlike this.
Have you seen?
Yeah.
Yes.
Right?
Yeah.
If you and I were in the same room, it would bevery and and let's say the room got a little
chilly.
It would be very natural for us to go likethis.
Why?
We're preventing the inside the outside fromentering us.
(39:07):
Right?
And we're also inadvertently closing us.
Right?
Like, look.
My my spine rolls in.
Right?
Naturally, kind of my body closes.
So what is the message we're sending?
The the message we're sending is I am notactually open to hear what you're saying.
Right?
Yeah.
(39:27):
The chest open, direct eye contact, supportivenods of the head.
dimension of compassionate listening.
We're gonna notice all the times we wannainterrupt the speaker to ask the follow-up
question, to defend ourselves, to say the samething happened to us or to our cousin.
(39:49):
We're gonna notice that, and then here we haveto bite our tongue if we need just so that we
remember not to interrupt.
This is especially critical when theconversation is is more challenging.
When we are in the midst of conflict.
We're gonna listen before trying to interrupt.
(40:10):
Mhmm.
dimension of compassionate listening.
dimension of compassionate listening.
What are we listening for?
Yes.
Words are important.
What's even more important than words, however,is energy, emotion, and intensity behind the
(40:31):
words.
Right?
That's what gives words meaning.
That's what gives words meaning.
It's that energy, emotion, intensity.
And I would even add cultural context culturalcontext for the words.
Right?
Because we're living in a we're and operatingwithin a global environment.
(40:52):
And, of course, a great example of that, thetwo languages that you and I are probably most
familiar with, right, Russian and Ukrainian,both have many words for that describe
suffering.
Right?
And actually very few words that describe joy.
That's a cult it's a cultural context.
(41:13):
Right?
And tell me if I'm getting this wrong.
The final dimension of compassionate listening,and this is very important, we're gonna
summarize the general gist of what the personhad said, and then we're gonna use our voice
and our body to try to capture that energy,emotion, and intensity.
(41:38):
Now sometimes this is where my students willsay to me, Henry, do you mean to sell us that
if someone is yelling, we yell back?
The answer is no.
However, if someone is really animated, youknow, and they're using their hands and they're
talking like this, and I reflect and say whatthey said in this very monotone voice, right,
(41:58):
there's gonna be a mismatch.
There's gonna be a mismatch.
So if someone is very, very animated and maybethey're at a ten, I will meet them at a seven,
but not at a three, but not at a And a criticalsomething that's very, very critical.
Something very critical, Yelena.
(42:19):
As we are listening to people, we're also askedtwo critical questions.
Am I hearing what people intended me to hear?
Are people hearing what I intended them tohear?
Because, again, so often, we're listening notto the person but to our story of the person.
And this is where by summarizing the generalgist of what the person is saying, we can
(42:42):
actually check-in and say, is this what you'resaying?
Is this what I'm hearing you say?
Right now, this is not the same as validating.
We don't have to agree.
We don't have to validate.
We just have to understand what the person issaying.
Right?
And then so often, again, let's say you and Ihad a conflict, and I start saying something,
well, because you and I had a conflict, you'renot necessarily gonna be listening to me.
(43:08):
You're gonna be listening to your story of me.
So if I say to you, Yelena, could you, youknow, could you summarize what you think you
heard me say?
And as I hear you summarize, I may realize whatYelena, sorry.
That's not what I said at all or that's notwhat I meant at all.
K?
Now the next principle, Yelena, the nextprinciple is expansion.
(43:32):
And this is, as I said, where we move, and Iand I very often talk about how most of our
interactions, and I use an iceberg toillustrate this.
Most of our interactions are kind of on the tipat the tip of the iceberg, which is our
positions, which is the most superficial level.
And we never go beyond that.
We never engage with interests, which is why wehold the positions.
(43:53):
We never engage with emotions, right, whichgive the color to to everything that is
happening with us.
We very rarely get to values, and almost neverdo we get to needs.
Right?
Almost never do we get to needs.
And even when we're dealing with internationalconflicts, Russia, Ukraine, Israel, Palestine,
you know, all of those, until and unless we'reable to get to the need underlying needs of the
(44:18):
people involved, we're getting nowhere in anykind of negotiations.
We're getting nowhere in any kind ofnegotiations until there is a deep
acknowledgment of the needs, very human needs,right, of all the groups represented, of all
the people represented in this conflict.
(44:40):
So how do we get from positions to needs?
How do we get from positions to needs?
One of the very, very important aspects ofconflict transformation is how we is asking
questions asking questions.
This is how we start moving from positions toand through needs.
One of the most important questions we can ask,Elena, is not a question that we ask another
(45:04):
party.
One of the most important questions and one ofthe most transformative questions in conflict
we can ask is a question we ask ourselves.
And the question we ask ourselves is, what isit about this person or their situation that I
(45:24):
don't know?
What is it about this person or their situationthat I don't know?
Right?
Because the moment I ask this question, I now Ihave million questions.
Now I have million questions.
See, in western culture, we tend to focus onwhat we know.
(45:45):
We tend to focus on knowledge.
We tend to value knowledge.
Right?
Our knowledge, however, is always gonna belimited.
Our ignorance is limitless.
I'd rather focus on ignorance, right, if wefocus on what we don't know.
And as we ask what we don't know, we also ask,what is it that we do know?
Right?
(46:06):
That we make this very clear distinction.
What is it that we don't know, and what is itthat we actually do know about the situation?
Now, Yelena, when we get to the final step, thestep of exploration, this is where we bring
curiosity into conflict.
Right?
And curiosity is very diff it's very difficultto be curious when we are afraid.
(46:31):
Curiosity and fear don't mix well.
Right?
And that's where that step becomes soimportant, tuning inward.
Because the more we tune inward, the more we'reable to identify what is truly arising for us
and then shift that.
Shift fear into curiosity.
(46:53):
And then move away from the binary.
And in most conflicts, people will say, well,what is the binary?
Right versus wrong.
Right?
That's actually not correct.
How often do you get in conflict with otherpeople when you think you're wrong?
I'm wrong, and I'm gonna be in conflict withyou.
And the answer is no.
Right?
It's you think you're right, and I think I'mright.
(47:16):
Russia thinks it's right, and Ukraine thinksit's right.
Right?
And there's a conflict.
So it's right versus right.
And we move away from that from that two sidedbinary approach, and we start engaging with
complexity, nuance, ambiguity, and uncertaintyinherent in every single one of us as human
beings and therefore inherent in every singleone of our interactions.
(47:41):
So, Yelena, can I tell you and your listeners astory that really illustrates that?
And Yeah.
That illustrates that illustrates how we engagethat dimension and then also brings us to
another question, another powerful questionthat we ask.
Right?
Because so often so much about conflicttransformation is about asking powerful
(48:04):
questions as you have been doing here.
So this happened in The Middle East.
This happened in The Middle East.
Old man dies, and he leaves his entireinheritance to his three children.
Now his inheritance, Hila, and it consists of17 camels.
17 camels.
(48:26):
So he has three children.
The oldest son, you know, it's The Middle East.
The oldest son is preferred.
The oldest son gets one half one half of theinheritance.
Right?
He has a middle son, and the middle son gets 1of the inheritance.
And then he has a daughter.
And the daughter, well, you know, what happensto daughters everywhere?
(48:48):
Sometimes daughters, right, get the shorter endof the stick.
So the daughter gets 1 of the inheritance.
So, Yelena, we have a problem, don't we?
We have 17 camels.
Right?
Is 17 divisible by two?
It's not.
Is 17 divisible by three?
(49:09):
No.
Right?
Is 17 divisible by nine?
It's not.
So what to do?
So siblings are arguing.
You know, they're they're they're developing aconflict.
These these things are escalating.
You know, there were other people are gettingdrawn in.
People are taking sides, and they're gettingnowhere.
And finally, someone says, you know, you oughtto go see this other this wise woman in the
(49:35):
neighboring village.
Maybe Maybe she could help you.
So the siblings at this point are desperate.
They have nothing else to do.
They go see this woman, and they're kind ofunimpressed.
All she's doing is just asking them somequestions.
She's listening, and then she says, you know, Idon't know if I could help you.
Let me think about it.
So a few days go by, and the woman shows up inthe village where the siblings are living, and
(50:02):
she's not showing up alone.
She's bringing another camel with her, and shegathers the siblings.
And she says, look.
I don't know if I could help you, but, youknow, my family has been very, very successful.
I have this other camel that, you know, myfamily is not using.
Maybe you could use it as well.
(50:23):
So now the siblings have 18 camels.
Now we're gonna do some math.
Right, Elena?
Are you ready?
Mhmm.
Okay.
So so now we have 18 camels.
Okay.
So 18 divided by two.
Nine.
Nine.
So the oldest brother gets nine camels.
Right?
Mhmm.
(50:43):
18 divided by three.
Six.
Six.
And 18 divided by 9?
2.
Okay.
So 962 is what?
It is 961517.
17.
And that and and and and and and this isconflict transformation.
(51:07):
Right?
So what did the woman do here?
She didn't tell the siblings what to do.
She enabled them to look at the situationdifferently where actually they realized that
they had everything that they needed to fromthe start to resolve the situation.
So what is the fundamental question that thewoman asked?
(51:29):
The fundamental question that the woman askedis what is possible?
What is possible?
Because when we ask the question what ispossible, right, we engage our creativity.
Otherwise, we operate within limited parametersof maybe what has happened before.
(51:49):
The moment we ask a question, what is possible?
We naturally expand.
Right?
And then we can develop our creativity, andthen we can brainstorm, and then we can do all
these things that we're doing.
And that's how we start bringing creativityinto and curiosity into conflict.
(52:11):
We ask this question.
What is possible?
Yeah.
Very interesting.
I really appreciate such a good illustrationof, looking at things from different
perspectives.
Yes.
So when you something that can seem impossibleto solve, when you just change perspective, you
(52:33):
can find the solution.
Mhmm.
So
this very wise to look at things from differentperspectives and, open your mind and see what
is possible.
Yeah.
What can be so what solution can be found?
Because people just say, oh, it is impossible.
Like, as initially, 17 is impossible to divideby three or impossible to divide by two.
(53:01):
Right?
But when we look at a different perspective, itbecomes possible.
Yes.
So so great, example of this wisdom.
Yes.
And, Elena and sometimes for us to get thatperspective and this is very important.
We sometimes physically have to move space.
Right?
(53:22):
Physically, we we we have to we have to changeour positions.
We have to move.
And this is also sometimes, you know, when whenwhen maybe when your clients, you know, are
dealing with difficult negotiations, difficultconflict, sometimes gaining a new perspective
actually means we have to physically move to adifferent place, location so that we can maybe
(53:43):
see things differently.
That sometimes can be very, very crucial.
That sometimes could be very, very crucial interms of how we think about a conflict
situation.
Yes.
I learned this from Napoleon Hill where heexplained Yeah.
This principle of mastermind.
Yes.
And even, like, he said that somebody didn'thave that mastermind, but he created it in his
(54:08):
mind, and he invited important people whodidn't live already.
Like, for example, Abraham Lincoln or AndrewCarnegie or
Mhmm.
Thomas Edison.
Yes.
And he was asking them questions.
(54:28):
What what what they would say if they were atthe table?
So he mentally created the table and put therein his mind, imagination, all these people.
And then he was physically sitting at each ofthem place, moving physically around the table
(54:49):
and sitting at their place to connect to themand just connect to their mind and see at that
situation problem which he wanted to solve fromtheir point of view.
Yes.
This is reminded me about this that, yeah,physical that you don't just look at from your
place.
You just go around the table.
And, also, Bob Proctor, who was my mentor, healso shared this about when we learned about
(55:14):
perspect perception.
He said that whenever you have a problem, ofall, write it on the paper.
Take it out of your head.
Write it on the paper with all, details, like,as as more details as you can.
Just take this all out so it is not in yourhead.
(55:35):
And then put this paper in the middle of thetable, and then look at this situation from
your perspective.
Yeah.
This is situation.
This happened.
This, this, this, all details.
Then move and sit in another place and see say,what if that would be, let's say, I don't know
(55:59):
Mhmm.
John Kennedy or whatever.
Right.
How he would look and anybody else how he wouldlook.
And moving like this and just looking at thingsfrom different people perspectives can open
that big huge depth zone of, possible,solutions, which we might not see when we look
(56:22):
at things only from our point of view.
And I think even beyond that, Elena, evenbeyond that, sometimes the exercise I have
people do is and and this is by the way, eventhe exercise, you know, I've done with my
students even with Russia and Ukraine.
Right?
So someone asked me, okay.
(56:43):
If I was a mediator for this conflict and look.
I this conflict is nowhere in the place whereit's ready to be mediated before some I also
wanna acknowledge something.
Right?
Before something is mediated, there has to beaccountability and responsibility.
Right?
There has to be accountability.
There has to be shared humanity.
We cannot be just negotiating, when when whenwhen that is not present.
(57:07):
However, once that is present, the place Iwould start is what would it take for Vladimir
Putin and Vladimir Zelensky to both delivervictory speeches?
What would it take for these two leaders,right, at war, at a very intense war, to
(57:33):
deliver victory speeches?
In delivering victory speeches where the ruleis the rule is it's not just, okay, complete
annihilation of the other.
It's what are their needs, and is there a wayto find to meet their needs and needs of their
respective people without taking away fromsomeone else?
(57:56):
Can we find that camel?
And so sometimes it's even you know, when weare in conflict with with with people, with
with with with other entities, where we beginand how we change the perspective is we
actually write out a victory speech from theirperspective.
(58:16):
What is it that they're seeking?
Can we truly understand not only theirposition, but their interests, their emotions,
their values, and their needs?
And if we can, right, if we can, then insteadof negotiating, from positional level, instead
(58:38):
of negotiating from domination, who is gonnadominate the other person more?
None of these things ever gonna last, right, ifit's purely based on power and domination.
We start negotiation from the needs.
What are the fundamental needs, and how can wemeet them?
And how can we get to the place where we havethe camel, right, where we're not where
(59:00):
everyone is able to get what they need withouttaking away from someone else.
Yes.
I I wish everyone would, would listen to ourpodcast and learn from you, especially those
politicians, yes, who now affect so many manypeople lives, unfortunately, in negative way.
(59:26):
Right.
Yes.
Thank you so much, Hendri.
It was such amazing conversation we had, andI'm sure that it is a lot to learn.
And everyone can listen to this many timesbecause there's so many lessons which you
shared from your experience.
Thank you so much.
And I'm looking forward to meet you again so wecan record more conversations.
(59:53):
Sounds great, Elena.
And if I may just mention, you know, if youlisteners are looking to connect with me, I am
I am online.
I'm on LinkedIn.
I'm on Instagram.
My web page is www.livingpeaceinstitute.com.
And, also, I have this book, out.
It's called dissolving conflict from within, aninner path for conflict transformation.
(01:00:17):
It's available worldwide on Amazon on Amazonaudio.
It's available in North America everywherebooks are sold, in all major book retailers.
So thank you.
Yeah.
Thank you so much for sharing.
We will put all your contacts, how people canfind you in the description of this video.
And, of course, I'm sure that your book has somuch to learn from.
(01:00:42):
Yes.
Thank you so much, Henry.
Okay.
Thank you.
You're most welcome.
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