March 11, 2025 • 25 mins
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Dr. Ed Daube, senior psychologist with 32 years of experience at the California Youth Authority, joins us for an eye-opening conversation about the true nature of emotions and how to master them. Drawing from decades of clinical expertise, Dr. Daube dismantles the common myth that emotions control us, revealing instead how we can strategically work with our emotional responses.
The emotions cycle begins with our brain's constant scanning for threats—a hardwired survival mechanism. When the amygdala perceives danger, it triggers physical responses before we're even consciously aware of feeling anything. But unlike our cave-dwelling ancestors who faced primarily physical dangers, most modern threats are psychological. This is where mastery becomes possible: by physically stepping back and taking a deep breath, we create space to assess whether the perceived threat is real before choosing our response.
Dr. Daube makes a fascinating distinction between anger's validity and justification. Our anger is always valid because it reflects our perception, but it may not be justified if based on misunderstanding. He explores the spectrum from mild annoyance to full rage, noting how our capacity for rational choice diminishes as intensity increases. Particularly illuminating is his research on women's anger, revealing how society often forces women to find indirect ways to express and address legitimate grievances without facing labels like "difficult" or "emotional."
For teenagers struggling with anger management, Dr. Daube offers practical wisdom: if your anger creates more problems than it solves, it's time to step back and examine what perceived threats are triggering your reactions. The key insight? Nothing outside ourselves "makes" us angry—our perception creates the emotional response, putting the power and responsibility for emotional mastery squarely in our hands.
Ready to transform your relationship with anger? Visit emotionsdoctor.com or check out Dr. Dalby's book "Beyond Anger Management: Master Your Anger as a Strategic Tool" on Amazon to continue your journey toward emotional intelligence.
To learn more about Dr. Ed Daube, please click on the link below.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Fatima Bey The MindShif (00:01):
Welcome to MindShift Power Podcast, the
only international podcastfocused on teens, connecting
young voices and perspectivesfrom around the world.
Get ready to explore the issuesthat matter to today's youth
and shape tomorrow's world.
I'm your host, fatima Bey theMindShifter.
Hello and welcome everyone.
(00:24):
Today we have with us Dr EdDalby, and he is the emotions
doctor.
He is out of California, he isan author and he also spent over
32 years with the CaliforniaYouth Authority as a senior
psychologist and supervisor, andhe is, in particular, an expert
on this topic, and he is we'regoing to take a real an expert
(00:45):
on this topic.
We're going to take a real deepdive into this topic and you're
going to love listening to him.
How are you doing today, drDhabi?
Ed Daube Ph.D (00:51):
I'm doing great, Fatima.
Thank you for having me.
Fatima Bey The MindShifte (00:54):
Thank you for coming on again.
I like to dive right into it.
Let's start off with.
Ed Daube Ph.D (01:03):
Explain to us, mr Emotions Doctor, what are
emotions?
Well, that's an interestingquestion and it's a topic that
most people do not understand.
Emotions are tools and there iswhat's called the emotions
cycle, and let me explain howthat works.
All of us are constantlyscanning our environment for
threat.
We're hardwired to do that, andwhen we lived in caves that
(01:26):
worked, because all threats outthere were going to kill us.
They were survival threats.
Most of the threats today arepsychological threats, and
that's different.
So the way the emotion cycleworks is we automatically scan
our environments for threats andwhen we perceive a threat,
subconsciously, the amygdalasets us up for what's called
(01:51):
fight or flight and then, whenthat happens, you feel the
emotion and your body is readyto deal with whatever the threat
it happens to perceive.
That's the emotion cycle,that's the way it happens to
perceive, that's the emotioncycle.
That's the way it works, andthat part of the cycle is
subconscious and we have nocontrol over it, and because of
(02:15):
that, the myth is that ouremotions control us and we don't
control them, and it's onlytrue for the initial reaction to
the perceived threat.
Now, since we are far evolvedbeyond our cave people, the
emotion cycle continues becausenow we have the option of taking
(02:38):
a look and assessing what'sgoing on, whether the threat is
real or not.
What's going on, whether thethreat is real or not?
So part of the emotion cycle isyou perceive the threat, you
react unconsciously and then youhave to train yourself to take
a step back physically and takea deep breath which lowers your
(02:58):
arousal level, and now you canmove into mastering that emotion
.
Let me state that again Onceyou feel the emotion, you then
manage it by taking a step backphysically from the situation,
which gives you physical safety,and then taking a deep breath.
(03:19):
Once you do that, now you canmove into emotional mastery,
because now you have the optionof using the thinking part of
your brain, which is thethinking part of your brain, the
cerebrum, and you can now askwhat is going on?
How real is the threat?
When you do that, you have theoption of either continuing to
act as if the threat is real ifit is, or choosing not to take
(03:43):
action.
That's mastering the emotion.
So that's the emotion cycle,when you understand that every
emotion has a specific message.
The message of anger is there'sa threat out there and I can
overcome that threat by throwingenough force at it.
Anger prepares you for war, asopposed to an emotion like
(04:05):
anxiety, where the message isthere may be a threat out there
and you have to assess whetheror not the threat is real and
whether you want to take action.
So every emotion has a specificmessage.
When you understand the message, you can choose to assess
whether the threat is real andwhat you're going to do about it
, if that makes sense.
Fatima Bey The MindShifter (04:25):
So I want to clarify something.
So you say a perceived threatwhen it comes to anger.
So what if I'm angry about aninjustice?
Ed Daube Ph.D (04:34):
Okay, that's a good question.
You have to ask yourselfwhether or not the injustice is
your perception that something'swrong or is in fact a real
threat, whether the injustice isreal or you've imagined it,
because you misunderstand what'sgoing on in the situation,
because you've misperceivedwhat's going on.
(04:55):
In other words, you initiallysee it as an injustice, but
there is no injustice, in whichcase you choose to step back,
stand down and do nothing.
But if you look at it andthere's a real injustice, now
you have to decide what can I doto eliminate it?
And then you can take theaction that you choose to take,
if that makes sense.
Fatima Bey The MindShifter (05:17):
It does.
I want to use an example.
You disrespected my mother andnow I'm angry and I want to
punch you in the face.
Ed Daube Ph.D (05:23):
Where's?
Fatima Bey The MindShifter (05:24):
the threat?
Where's the threat in that?
Ed Daube Ph.D (05:26):
The threat is to your value.
That says my mother deservesrespect and you need to give it
to her.
Now the question is thequestion is have I done
something to disrespect yourmother?
Because I misunderstood whatshe was saying, or because maybe
she provoked it and that's whatyou have?
(05:48):
To look at.
Fatima Bey The MindShifter (05:50):
Yeah , you're absolutely right.
Ed Daube Ph.D (05:52):
Yeah, because if she's done something and I'm
reacting to that, perhaps I'moverreacting, perhaps I'm not
reacting strong enough.
So that's what you have to takea look at.
What is the initial action thatled me to disrespect your
mother?
Where did it come from?
(06:12):
Was it my misperception, or wasit something that your mother
actually said?
Because maybe my anger at yourmom is justified or maybe it
isn't, and that's what needs tobe assessed, if that makes sense
.
Fatima Bey The MindS (06:25):
Absolutely .
And I asked you that so thatyou could clarify that a little
deeper.
Because, although I know whatyou're saying is true, that it
is perceived threat, sometimespeople are like, well, I have a
right to be mad and they don'trealize where the threat is in
that anger.
So you just broke that downwithin the example that I, a
small example that I gave.
So you just broke that downwithin the example that I, small
example that.
Ed Daube Ph.D (06:45):
I gave yes, but, fatima, they do have a right to
be angry.
Let me explain that Anger isalways valid in that it's based
on how you perceive your world.
It isn't necessarily justifiedbecause it may be a
misperception, and the actionsyou take when you're in anger
also may not be justifiedbecause they may be too extreme,
(07:07):
but the anger is always valid.
Fatima Bey The MindShifter (07:11):
The anger is valid, but just the
piece that I was talking aboutwas the perceived danger.
Yes, or the threat rathertalking about was the perceived
danger.
Ed Daube Ph.D (07:18):
Yes.
Fatima Bey The MindShifter (07:19):
Or the threat.
Rather, you used the wordthreat For those who didn't make
that connection.
I wanted to make sure that theycould connect the dots that you
were laying out there.
Let me ask you this, becauseyou already explained what anger
is Are there levels to anger?
Ed Daube Ph.D (07:36):
There are levels to anger.
You can be angry or you can beannoyed, which is a lower level
of anger, because you're annoyedat a threat.
You can be angry at a perceivedthreat, which means you're
ready to go to war, or you canbe enraged, which means you're
ready to kill somebody,proverbially.
So there are different levelsto anger.
Fatima Bey The MindShifter (07:58):
And I think it's important to point
that out, because sometimespeople think everything is one
thing and it's not.
And it's important, if we'redealing with someone who's angry
, or angry ourselves, tounderstand that there are levels
and that makes a difference onhow we handle it.
Ed Daube Ph.D (08:14):
I was going to say.
There's also something aboutthe different levels.
When you're annoyed, you havethe option of choosing a
different response.
When you're angry, you have achoice excuse me of choosing a
different response.
When you're enraged, you're notthinking to a point of making a
(08:35):
different response.
You're going to take action.
When you're enraged, you're outof control.
Fatima Bey The MindShift (08:40):
You're right.
You're right.
I want you to tell me what youtold me off air, the story that
you told me off air, which Ithink demonstrates so many
things related to this topic.
What did you learn about womenand anger?
Ed Daube Ph.D (08:58):
Years ago, when I was writing my book on anger
and the book, by the way, forpeople to be aware of it, it's
called Beyond Anger ManagementMaster your Anger as a Strategic
Tool is available on Amazon andI wanted to write a chapter on
women's anger.
So I went on to LinkedIn, to awoman's forum, and I asked
(09:21):
specifically.
I said look, I'm a man and Iwant to know what happens when
you, as a woman, express anger.
Responses was I, as a woman,cannot express anger directly,
because if I do, I get labeled abitch, or I get labeled a
(09:48):
feminazi, or I get labeledwhatever it happens to be, and
it was true for women in avariety of situations.
I got a response from a womanwho was a.
She owned a company and shesaid it was difficult for her to
get angry with her employeesbecause they didn't take her
seriously.
And my response to these womenwas that, first of all, they
need to validate their own angerand not go along with the
(10:12):
labels that people are saying no, you as a woman can't get angry
.
The issue there, by the way, isthat men don't know how to deal
with women's anger.
That's the issue.
But having said that, women donot know how to deal with
women's anger.
Fatima Bey The MindShifter (10:31):
So what they?
Ed Daube Ph.D (10:31):
do is they attempt to marginalize her,
devalue her, label her, with thegoal of getting her to not
express her anger.
Because in our society, womenare, generally speaking, are
trained to be comforters, aretrained to be healers, are
trained to be people who come inand smooth things over, not
(10:55):
directly, to be assertive.
That's considered a man'semotion.
It isn't, by the way, butthat's the way our society looks
at it.
So what I suggested to women ifyou're in a situation, as a
woman, where you can't expressanger directly, because either
you're an employee and there maybe some consequences to you
(11:16):
getting angry, you need toexpress your anger indirectly.
And what I mean by that is thiswhen you validate your anger
saying I, as a woman, have aright to be angry, and you do,
and there's a real threat here.
For example, let's say, aco-worker or a boss is stealing
your work and presenting it ashis.
Fatima Bey The MindShifter (11:37):
And that happens.
Ed Daube Ph.D (11:38):
It happens, then what you do is you need to take
a project management approach toit, and a project management
approach is okay.
What's the issue?
What's the threat?
What are my options for dealingwith it?
Indirectly, and then choose thebest option to deal with the
threat the person who's stealingyour work without directly
(11:59):
getting angry, because gettingangry may subject you to
consequences you don't want.
So what that does is itvalidates the anger, it gets rid
of the threat and it keeps yousafe.
Fatima Bey The MindShifter (12:12):
I love the fact that you reached
out to a group of women to sayhey, what pisses you off?
Exactly, and they gave you thereal responses.
And I just liked the fact thatyou came from a position of
trying to understand womeninstead of talking at us.
And this is one of the reasonswhy I like talking to you is
because you have that mindsetwhere you actually try to
understand people and not justsay I have a degree, so listen
(12:35):
to me.
I think it's beautiful that youjust overall, this is your
mindset and how you approacheverything.
Let me ask you this For thosewho are dealing with anger
management and they know theyget angry can we stop ourselves
from getting to the point ofanger?
Ed Daube Ph.D (12:53):
The answer is yes , but it takes practice.
And what you want to thinkabout here is learning to ride a
bike.
When you learn to ride a bike,your dad or mom whatever didn't
just put you on a bike, or maybethey did, but you had to learn.
I have two grandkids, one'sthree and one's five, and they
(13:17):
just learned how to ride a bikeand how to pedal.
But it involved falling andinvolved being uncomfortable and
learning how to get the musclememory, but it's a skill and
once you get the skill, it'sthere.
So, when you're learning todeal with anger or any emotion,
you're developing a new skill.
And the way you do that is thisyou can take any emotion,
(13:41):
whatever it happens to be,whether it's anger or it's
anxiety, or it's disgust orwhatever it happens to be.
When you feel that emotionphysically in your body, force
yourself to take a deep breathand take a step back from the
situation.
Now you may say, well, wait aminute, dr Dobby, when I'm happy
you want me to take a deepbreath and take a step back.
(14:03):
Yes, that's exactly what I wantyou to do, and the reason I
want you to do that is becauseyou are training yourself to
learn emotional mastery.
And emotional mastery says Ifeel the emotion, I take a step
back from the situation, I takea deep breath to calm myself
down.
When you learn that skill now,when you experience anger and
(14:28):
you need to learn where in yourbody you experience it Some
people they feel warmth in theirhead, some people feel
tightening of the muscles youneed to learn what your specific
physical reaction to anger is.
And when you feel that you takea deep breath which calms you
down psychologically, you take astep back from the situation,
(14:49):
which creates physical safetybetween you and the other person
, and then you can say what'sactually going on here, how real
is the threat?
If the threat is indeed real,then you need to plan what
you're going to do to neutralizeit.
If it's not because you'vemisperceived, perhaps you say to
the person what did you mean bywhat you said?
(15:12):
Or what was going on, what ledyou to do that?
So now you have information,you can say oh, I misunderstood
what was happening, so I'm goingto let the anger go.
I'll give an example, not fromanger, but from anxiety.
I taught in a college herelocally in California and I was
(15:34):
leaving work to go to my classand I experienced what I
recognize as anxiety.
My stomach was churning and soI thought about it.
I said wait a minute, what'sgoing on here?
My anxiety is telling methere's a potential threat in
the future, a maybe threat.
So I said is everything okay athome?
(15:54):
Yep, is everything okay for mylecture?
Yeah, when I decided everythingwas okay, I chose to ignore the
physical sign, which wasanxiety.
I said I don't know, maybe it'sgas or something, I don't know.
But that was mastering theanxiety.
(16:15):
Now, with anger, if I'm gettingangry, I need to take a deep
breath, take a step back and saywhat is the perceived threat?
The perceived threat is youhave disrespected me, that you
(16:41):
are actually disrespecting mebecause you may not.
So when I find out from youthat what you said and what you
meant was not reallydisrespecting, then I can say oh
, okay, and I can calm down andwe can talk about it.
If you did disrespect me, thethreat is real and I need then
to deal with you and say what doyou mean by that?
What was going on with you?
And I didn't like what you said.
Does that make sense?
Fatima Bey The MindS (17:04):
Absolutely so what I'm hearing I'm going
to paraphrase some of what yousaid was ask questions first
instead of coming to whateverperson or thing you're angry
about or mad at.
Ask questions first and makesure that what you perceive is
in fact true, because sometimeswe misunderstand people.
We get angry because we feellike that was disrespectful and
(17:25):
they were raised totallydifferent than you and didn't
see it as disrespectful, wasn'teven thinking about
disrespecting you at all.
I've seen those type ofsituations a lot.
I think that's probably one ofthe top ones where people feel
disrespected when no disrespectwas intended.
Sometimes there was, and Ithink that's different.
But I think first we need toassess do they really mean to
(17:46):
disrespect me or are they reallyjust coming from a different
place?
Ed Daube Ph.D (17:50):
Exactly so what you might then do when you ask
questions is you might get anapology, as opposed to going to
war, and now you're going to getslugged.
Fatima Bey The MindShifte (18:01):
Right , exactly, you get different
results.
That's a very good point.
Ed Daube Ph.D (18:05):
Now that segues into this next question Can we
have a logical conversation withsomebody who is absolutely
pissed off in the moment and thequick answer to that is no, and
the quick answer to that is no,and the reason for that is if
they're enraged, they're notgoing to be in contact with you,
(18:27):
they're not going to be logical, and what you need to do is you
need to step back and give themspace and give them a chance to
calm down.
Now, telling them to calm downprobably is not going to be very
effective.
Fatima Bey The MindShifte (18:39):
It'll do the opposite.
Ed Daube Ph.D (18:41):
It'll do the opposite.
But you're right, you're right.
So you back off, give themspace and maybe say we'll come
back to this later.
Fatima Bey The MindShifter (18:50):
Yes, and this is also true in
relationships.
It's true with parents andchildren, it's true with
coworkers, it's true in almostevery format you could think of.
When someone's that enraged,don't try to have a logical
conversation because they're notin a logical state of mind.
Give them space, let them comeback down to earth then try to
have a conversation, as basic asthat is.
(19:12):
People really need to hear that, because I see it all the time.
They're trying to have alogical conversation when a
person's, you know, ready toexplode or just they're just
really angry about whatever thetopic is, and I'm glad that you
pointed that out.
Ed Daube Ph.D (19:30):
Now you can acknowledge their emotion and
you can say I can see thatyou're really upset with me
right now and I'm going tovalidate that, but I'm going to
leave at this point.
We'll come back to it.
Fatima Bey The MindShifter (19:44):
Do you have any really quick tips
for, let's say, we have a highschool student that is
constantly getting in troublefor bursts of anger at school,
because that's a reality forquite a few kids.
So what can they do right now?
Ed Daube Ph.D (20:05):
The kid or the person dealing with the kid, the
kid, the kid.
If you're a kid and your angeris causing you more problems
than you want and not solvingthe issues that you're trying to
deal with, than you want andnot solving the issues that
you're trying to deal with, thenyou need to take some time to
learn what anger is and how todeal with it, and we've talked
(20:30):
about that.
Now you need to realize thatyou're getting angry, is
isolating you and probablycausing you more problems with
people in school and your peersand all of that, and your anger
isn't working.
So you need to step back andsay what is it that's pissing me
(20:51):
off so much and approach thatand attempt to deal with that
directly, if that makes sense.
Fatima Bey The MindShifter (20:58):
Yeah , I think the key thing you said
is it ain't working, it ain'tworking.
If something ain't working, whydo you keep doing it?
Only crazy people keep doingthe same thing and over and,
over and over again, expectingto get the same results.
Ed Daube Ph.D (21:08):
That's exactly correct.
Fatima Bey The MindShifter (21:10):
So I think, while, if you're
listening, and you do have anissue with anger, while you're
in a calm, logical state rightnow, assess, assess exactly what
he just said.
What makes you so angry whenyou're in the classroom and
somebody says something?
Is it because you feeldisrespected?
Deal with the core issue ofwhat's making you angry, because
(21:33):
then you can get over itinstead of staying under it and
move on to something else.
Ed Daube Ph.D (21:38):
Right, fatima, let me clarify that a bit for
you, because when you say whatmakes you angry, that's a myth,
and most people believe thatsomething outside of themselves
is what's causing their anger,and it isn't.
What's causing the anger istheir perception of threat.
So, instead of asking what'smaking me angry, what is the
(22:01):
threat that I perceive going onthat I'm getting angry at?
And the reason why I clarifythat is because it puts the
responsibility for the angerback on the teen.
Good point, very good point.
It's their perception of what'sgoing on, which may or may not
be accurate, and that's wherethe assessment comes in.
(22:22):
I have a right, as a teen, toget angry, but I also have the
responsibility of taking a lookat my perceived threat and
whether or not it's real, andthen I have the responsibility
of saying the action I've chosento take.
Are they dealing with a threator not?
Are they making it worse?
Fatima Bey The MindShifter (22:42):
Very , very good point.
Now, Dr Dobby, tell them whatelse you do and how people can
find you.
Ed Daube Ph.D (22:50):
Well, the best way.
Since I'm retired, I'm notdoing much of anything actually,
except going on podcasts andtrying to help people deal with
emotional issues.
But the best way is to go toemotionsdoctorcom and that's my
blog with all kinds ofinformation on emotions, and you
(23:12):
can access that by going to thewebsite and pulling down the
index tab and clicking on theinformation of the specific
emotion that you want.
The other way is to go toAmazon and take a look at my
book on anger specifically.
There's a ton of usefulinformation in that it's an
(23:33):
audio book, it's a physical book, it's all on Amazon.
And again, the book is calledBeyond Anger Management Master
your Anger as a Strategic Tool,and it's on Amazon.
Fatima Bey The MindShifter (23:46):
Well , dr Dalby, thank you for coming
on and having this conversationand I hope that this episode
plants some thoughts in thosewho really need to grow their
garden of balance.
And, once again, thank you.
Ed Daube Ph.D (24:02):
Thank you for having me.
I hope it's been effective.
Fatima Bey The MindShifter (24:05):
And now for a mind shifting moment
For everyone listening out there.
If today's episode was aboutyou I'm talking to you right now
, while you're in a calm andlogical state I want you to go
back and listen again to thisentire episode and begin to
(24:26):
implement some of the thingsthat Dr Dalby talked about,
because when you're angry,you're not going to be logical
and you're not going to.
You'll just be in your feelings.
But the truth is, if you reallywant to start solving the
problems of getting the resultsand after effects of your bursts
(24:47):
of anger, you really want tostop.
If that's, you, go back andlisten to this episode again and
begin to implement everythingthat he said, because you can
overcome it, instead of stayingworldwide platforms, so you, too
(25:10):
, can be a part of theconversation that's changing
young lives everywhere, andalways remember there's power in
shifting your thinking.
Welcome to MindShift Power Podcast, the
only international podcastfocused on teens, connecting
young voices and perspectivesfrom around the world.
Get ready to explore the issuesthat matter to today's youth
and shape tomorrow's world.
I'm your host, fatima Bey theMindShifter.
Hello and welcome everyone.
(00:24):
Today we have with us Dr EdDalby, and he is the emotions
doctor.
He is out of California, he isan author and he also spent over
32 years with the CaliforniaYouth Authority as a senior
psychologist and supervisor, andhe is, in particular, an expert
on this topic, and he is we'regoing to take a real an expert
(00:45):
on this topic.
We're going to take a real deepdive into this topic and you're
going to love listening to him.
How are you doing today, drDhabi?
Ed Daube Ph.D (00:51):
I'm doing great, Fatima.
Thank you for having me.
Fatima Bey The MindShifte (00:54):
Thank you for coming on again.
I like to dive right into it.
Let's start off with.
Ed Daube Ph.D (01:03):
Explain to us, mr Emotions Doctor, what are
emotions?
Well, that's an interestingquestion and it's a topic that
most people do not understand.
Emotions are tools and there iswhat's called the emotions
cycle, and let me explain howthat works.
All of us are constantlyscanning our environment for
threat.
We're hardwired to do that, andwhen we lived in caves that
(01:26):
worked, because all threats outthere were going to kill us.
They were survival threats.
Most of the threats today arepsychological threats, and
that's different.
So the way the emotion cycleworks is we automatically scan
our environments for threats andwhen we perceive a threat,
subconsciously, the amygdalasets us up for what's called
(01:51):
fight or flight and then, whenthat happens, you feel the
emotion and your body is readyto deal with whatever the threat
it happens to perceive.
That's the emotion cycle,that's the way it happens to
perceive, that's the emotioncycle.
That's the way it works, andthat part of the cycle is
subconscious and we have nocontrol over it, and because of
(02:15):
that, the myth is that ouremotions control us and we don't
control them, and it's onlytrue for the initial reaction to
the perceived threat.
Now, since we are far evolvedbeyond our cave people, the
emotion cycle continues becausenow we have the option of taking
(02:38):
a look and assessing what'sgoing on, whether the threat is
real or not.
What's going on, whether thethreat is real or not?
So part of the emotion cycle isyou perceive the threat, you
react unconsciously and then youhave to train yourself to take
a step back physically and takea deep breath which lowers your
(02:58):
arousal level, and now you canmove into mastering that emotion
.
Let me state that again Onceyou feel the emotion, you then
manage it by taking a step backphysically from the situation,
which gives you physical safety,and then taking a deep breath.
(03:19):
Once you do that, now you canmove into emotional mastery,
because now you have the optionof using the thinking part of
your brain, which is thethinking part of your brain, the
cerebrum, and you can now askwhat is going on?
How real is the threat?
When you do that, you have theoption of either continuing to
act as if the threat is real ifit is, or choosing not to take
(03:43):
action.
That's mastering the emotion.
So that's the emotion cycle,when you understand that every
emotion has a specific message.
The message of anger is there'sa threat out there and I can
overcome that threat by throwingenough force at it.
Anger prepares you for war, asopposed to an emotion like
(04:05):
anxiety, where the message isthere may be a threat out there
and you have to assess whetheror not the threat is real and
whether you want to take action.
So every emotion has a specificmessage.
When you understand the message, you can choose to assess
whether the threat is real andwhat you're going to do about it
, if that makes sense.
Fatima Bey The MindShifter (04:25):
So I want to clarify something.
So you say a perceived threatwhen it comes to anger.
So what if I'm angry about aninjustice?
Ed Daube Ph.D (04:34):
Okay, that's a good question.
You have to ask yourselfwhether or not the injustice is
your perception that something'swrong or is in fact a real
threat, whether the injustice isreal or you've imagined it,
because you misunderstand what'sgoing on in the situation,
because you've misperceivedwhat's going on.
(04:55):
In other words, you initiallysee it as an injustice, but
there is no injustice, in whichcase you choose to step back,
stand down and do nothing.
But if you look at it andthere's a real injustice, now
you have to decide what can I doto eliminate it?
And then you can take theaction that you choose to take,
if that makes sense.
Fatima Bey The MindShifter (05:17):
It does.
I want to use an example.
You disrespected my mother andnow I'm angry and I want to
punch you in the face.
Ed Daube Ph.D (05:23):
Where's?
Fatima Bey The MindShifter (05:24):
the threat?
Where's the threat in that?
Ed Daube Ph.D (05:26):
The threat is to your value.
That says my mother deservesrespect and you need to give it
to her.
Now the question is thequestion is have I done
something to disrespect yourmother?
Because I misunderstood whatshe was saying, or because maybe
she provoked it and that's whatyou have?
(05:48):
To look at.
Fatima Bey The MindShifter (05:50):
Yeah , you're absolutely right.
Ed Daube Ph.D (05:52):
Yeah, because if she's done something and I'm
reacting to that, perhaps I'moverreacting, perhaps I'm not
reacting strong enough.
So that's what you have to takea look at.
What is the initial action thatled me to disrespect your
mother?
Where did it come from?
(06:12):
Was it my misperception, or wasit something that your mother
actually said?
Because maybe my anger at yourmom is justified or maybe it
isn't, and that's what needs tobe assessed, if that makes sense
.
Fatima Bey The MindS (06:25):
Absolutely .
And I asked you that so thatyou could clarify that a little
deeper.
Because, although I know whatyou're saying is true, that it
is perceived threat, sometimespeople are like, well, I have a
right to be mad and they don'trealize where the threat is in
that anger.
So you just broke that downwithin the example that I, a
small example that I gave.
So you just broke that downwithin the example that I, small
example that.
Ed Daube Ph.D (06:45):
I gave yes, but, fatima, they do have a right to
be angry.
Let me explain that Anger isalways valid in that it's based
on how you perceive your world.
It isn't necessarily justifiedbecause it may be a
misperception, and the actionsyou take when you're in anger
also may not be justifiedbecause they may be too extreme,
(07:07):
but the anger is always valid.
Fatima Bey The MindShifter (07:11):
The anger is valid, but just the
piece that I was talking aboutwas the perceived danger.
Yes, or the threat rathertalking about was the perceived
danger.
Ed Daube Ph.D (07:18):
Yes.
Fatima Bey The MindShifter (07:19):
Or the threat.
Rather, you used the wordthreat For those who didn't make
that connection.
I wanted to make sure that theycould connect the dots that you
were laying out there.
Let me ask you this, becauseyou already explained what anger
is Are there levels to anger?
Ed Daube Ph.D (07:36):
There are levels to anger.
You can be angry or you can beannoyed, which is a lower level
of anger, because you're annoyedat a threat.
You can be angry at a perceivedthreat, which means you're
ready to go to war, or you canbe enraged, which means you're
ready to kill somebody,proverbially.
So there are different levelsto anger.
Fatima Bey The MindShifter (07:58):
And I think it's important to point
that out, because sometimespeople think everything is one
thing and it's not.
And it's important, if we'redealing with someone who's angry
, or angry ourselves, tounderstand that there are levels
and that makes a difference onhow we handle it.
Ed Daube Ph.D (08:14):
I was going to say.
There's also something aboutthe different levels.
When you're annoyed, you havethe option of choosing a
different response.
When you're angry, you have achoice excuse me of choosing a
different response.
When you're enraged, you're notthinking to a point of making a
(08:35):
different response.
You're going to take action.
When you're enraged, you're outof control.
Fatima Bey The MindShift (08:40):
You're right.
You're right.
I want you to tell me what youtold me off air, the story that
you told me off air, which Ithink demonstrates so many
things related to this topic.
What did you learn about womenand anger?
Ed Daube Ph.D (08:58):
Years ago, when I was writing my book on anger
and the book, by the way, forpeople to be aware of it, it's
called Beyond Anger ManagementMaster your Anger as a Strategic
Tool is available on Amazon andI wanted to write a chapter on
women's anger.
So I went on to LinkedIn, to awoman's forum, and I asked
(09:21):
specifically.
I said look, I'm a man and Iwant to know what happens when
you, as a woman, express anger.
Responses was I, as a woman,cannot express anger directly,
because if I do, I get labeled abitch, or I get labeled a
(09:48):
feminazi, or I get labeledwhatever it happens to be, and
it was true for women in avariety of situations.
I got a response from a womanwho was a.
She owned a company and shesaid it was difficult for her to
get angry with her employeesbecause they didn't take her
seriously.
And my response to these womenwas that, first of all, they
need to validate their own angerand not go along with the
(10:12):
labels that people are saying no, you as a woman can't get angry
.
The issue there, by the way, isthat men don't know how to deal
with women's anger.
That's the issue.
But having said that, women donot know how to deal with
women's anger.
Fatima Bey The MindShifter (10:31):
So what they?
Ed Daube Ph.D (10:31):
do is they attempt to marginalize her,
devalue her, label her, with thegoal of getting her to not
express her anger.
Because in our society, womenare, generally speaking, are
trained to be comforters, aretrained to be healers, are
trained to be people who come inand smooth things over, not
(10:55):
directly, to be assertive.
That's considered a man'semotion.
It isn't, by the way, butthat's the way our society looks
at it.
So what I suggested to women ifyou're in a situation, as a
woman, where you can't expressanger directly, because either
you're an employee and there maybe some consequences to you
(11:16):
getting angry, you need toexpress your anger indirectly.
And what I mean by that is thiswhen you validate your anger
saying I, as a woman, have aright to be angry, and you do,
and there's a real threat here.
For example, let's say, aco-worker or a boss is stealing
your work and presenting it ashis.
Fatima Bey The MindShifter (11:37):
And that happens.
Ed Daube Ph.D (11:38):
It happens, then what you do is you need to take
a project management approach toit, and a project management
approach is okay.
What's the issue?
What's the threat?
What are my options for dealingwith it?
Indirectly, and then choose thebest option to deal with the
threat the person who's stealingyour work without directly
(11:59):
getting angry, because gettingangry may subject you to
consequences you don't want.
So what that does is itvalidates the anger, it gets rid
of the threat and it keeps yousafe.
Fatima Bey The MindShifter (12:12):
I love the fact that you reached
out to a group of women to sayhey, what pisses you off?
Exactly, and they gave you thereal responses.
And I just liked the fact thatyou came from a position of
trying to understand womeninstead of talking at us.
And this is one of the reasonswhy I like talking to you is
because you have that mindsetwhere you actually try to
understand people and not justsay I have a degree, so listen
(12:35):
to me.
I think it's beautiful that youjust overall, this is your
mindset and how you approacheverything.
Let me ask you this For thosewho are dealing with anger
management and they know theyget angry can we stop ourselves
from getting to the point ofanger?
Ed Daube Ph.D (12:53):
The answer is yes , but it takes practice.
And what you want to thinkabout here is learning to ride a
bike.
When you learn to ride a bike,your dad or mom whatever didn't
just put you on a bike, or maybethey did, but you had to learn.
I have two grandkids, one'sthree and one's five, and they
(13:17):
just learned how to ride a bikeand how to pedal.
But it involved falling andinvolved being uncomfortable and
learning how to get the musclememory, but it's a skill and
once you get the skill, it'sthere.
So, when you're learning todeal with anger or any emotion,
you're developing a new skill.
And the way you do that is thisyou can take any emotion,
(13:41):
whatever it happens to be,whether it's anger or it's
anxiety, or it's disgust orwhatever it happens to be.
When you feel that emotionphysically in your body, force
yourself to take a deep breathand take a step back from the
situation.
Now you may say, well, wait aminute, dr Dobby, when I'm happy
you want me to take a deepbreath and take a step back.
(14:03):
Yes, that's exactly what I wantyou to do, and the reason I
want you to do that is becauseyou are training yourself to
learn emotional mastery.
And emotional mastery says Ifeel the emotion, I take a step
back from the situation, I takea deep breath to calm myself
down.
When you learn that skill now,when you experience anger and
(14:28):
you need to learn where in yourbody you experience it Some
people they feel warmth in theirhead, some people feel
tightening of the muscles youneed to learn what your specific
physical reaction to anger is.
And when you feel that you takea deep breath which calms you
down psychologically, you take astep back from the situation,
(14:49):
which creates physical safetybetween you and the other person
, and then you can say what'sactually going on here, how real
is the threat?
If the threat is indeed real,then you need to plan what
you're going to do to neutralizeit.
If it's not because you'vemisperceived, perhaps you say to
the person what did you mean bywhat you said?
(15:12):
Or what was going on, what ledyou to do that?
So now you have information,you can say oh, I misunderstood
what was happening, so I'm goingto let the anger go.
I'll give an example, not fromanger, but from anxiety.
I taught in a college herelocally in California and I was
(15:34):
leaving work to go to my classand I experienced what I
recognize as anxiety.
My stomach was churning and soI thought about it.
I said wait a minute, what'sgoing on here?
My anxiety is telling methere's a potential threat in
the future, a maybe threat.
So I said is everything okay athome?
(15:54):
Yep, is everything okay for mylecture?
Yeah, when I decided everythingwas okay, I chose to ignore the
physical sign, which wasanxiety.
I said I don't know, maybe it'sgas or something, I don't know.
But that was mastering theanxiety.
(16:15):
Now, with anger, if I'm gettingangry, I need to take a deep
breath, take a step back and saywhat is the perceived threat?
The perceived threat is youhave disrespected me, that you
(16:41):
are actually disrespecting mebecause you may not.
So when I find out from youthat what you said and what you
meant was not reallydisrespecting, then I can say oh
, okay, and I can calm down andwe can talk about it.
If you did disrespect me, thethreat is real and I need then
to deal with you and say what doyou mean by that?
What was going on with you?
And I didn't like what you said.
Does that make sense?
Fatima Bey The MindS (17:04):
Absolutely so what I'm hearing I'm going
to paraphrase some of what yousaid was ask questions first
instead of coming to whateverperson or thing you're angry
about or mad at.
Ask questions first and makesure that what you perceive is
in fact true, because sometimeswe misunderstand people.
We get angry because we feellike that was disrespectful and
(17:25):
they were raised totallydifferent than you and didn't
see it as disrespectful, wasn'teven thinking about
disrespecting you at all.
I've seen those type ofsituations a lot.
I think that's probably one ofthe top ones where people feel
disrespected when no disrespectwas intended.
Sometimes there was, and Ithink that's different.
But I think first we need toassess do they really mean to
(17:46):
disrespect me or are they reallyjust coming from a different
place?
Ed Daube Ph.D (17:50):
Exactly so what you might then do when you ask
questions is you might get anapology, as opposed to going to
war, and now you're going to getslugged.
Fatima Bey The MindShifte (18:01):
Right , exactly, you get different
results.
That's a very good point.
Ed Daube Ph.D (18:05):
Now that segues into this next question Can we
have a logical conversation withsomebody who is absolutely
pissed off in the moment and thequick answer to that is no, and
the quick answer to that is no,and the reason for that is if
they're enraged, they're notgoing to be in contact with you,
(18:27):
they're not going to be logical, and what you need to do is you
need to step back and give themspace and give them a chance to
calm down.
Now, telling them to calm downprobably is not going to be very
effective.
Fatima Bey The MindShifte (18:39):
It'll do the opposite.
Ed Daube Ph.D (18:41):
It'll do the opposite.
But you're right, you're right.
So you back off, give themspace and maybe say we'll come
back to this later.
Fatima Bey The MindShifter (18:50):
Yes, and this is also true in
relationships.
It's true with parents andchildren, it's true with
coworkers, it's true in almostevery format you could think of.
When someone's that enraged,don't try to have a logical
conversation because they're notin a logical state of mind.
Give them space, let them comeback down to earth then try to
have a conversation, as basic asthat is.
(19:12):
People really need to hear that, because I see it all the time.
They're trying to have alogical conversation when a
person's, you know, ready toexplode or just they're just
really angry about whatever thetopic is, and I'm glad that you
pointed that out.
Ed Daube Ph.D (19:30):
Now you can acknowledge their emotion and
you can say I can see thatyou're really upset with me
right now and I'm going tovalidate that, but I'm going to
leave at this point.
We'll come back to it.
Fatima Bey The MindShifter (19:44):
Do you have any really quick tips
for, let's say, we have a highschool student that is
constantly getting in troublefor bursts of anger at school,
because that's a reality forquite a few kids.
So what can they do right now?
Ed Daube Ph.D (20:05):
The kid or the person dealing with the kid, the
kid, the kid.
If you're a kid and your angeris causing you more problems
than you want and not solvingthe issues that you're trying to
deal with, than you want andnot solving the issues that
you're trying to deal with, thenyou need to take some time to
learn what anger is and how todeal with it, and we've talked
(20:30):
about that.
Now you need to realize thatyou're getting angry, is
isolating you and probablycausing you more problems with
people in school and your peersand all of that, and your anger
isn't working.
So you need to step back andsay what is it that's pissing me
(20:51):
off so much and approach thatand attempt to deal with that
directly, if that makes sense.
Fatima Bey The MindShifter (20:58):
Yeah , I think the key thing you said
is it ain't working, it ain'tworking.
If something ain't working, whydo you keep doing it?
Only crazy people keep doingthe same thing and over and,
over and over again, expectingto get the same results.
Ed Daube Ph.D (21:08):
That's exactly correct.
Fatima Bey The MindShifter (21:10):
So I think, while, if you're
listening, and you do have anissue with anger, while you're
in a calm, logical state rightnow, assess, assess exactly what
he just said.
What makes you so angry whenyou're in the classroom and
somebody says something?
Is it because you feeldisrespected?
Deal with the core issue ofwhat's making you angry, because
(21:33):
then you can get over itinstead of staying under it and
move on to something else.
Ed Daube Ph.D (21:38):
Right, fatima, let me clarify that a bit for
you, because when you say whatmakes you angry, that's a myth,
and most people believe thatsomething outside of themselves
is what's causing their anger,and it isn't.
What's causing the anger istheir perception of threat.
So, instead of asking what'smaking me angry, what is the
(22:01):
threat that I perceive going onthat I'm getting angry at?
And the reason why I clarifythat is because it puts the
responsibility for the angerback on the teen.
Good point, very good point.
It's their perception of what'sgoing on, which may or may not
be accurate, and that's wherethe assessment comes in.
(22:22):
I have a right, as a teen, toget angry, but I also have the
responsibility of taking a lookat my perceived threat and
whether or not it's real, andthen I have the responsibility
of saying the action I've chosento take.
Are they dealing with a threator not?
Are they making it worse?
Fatima Bey The MindShifter (22:42):
Very , very good point.
Now, Dr Dobby, tell them whatelse you do and how people can
find you.
Ed Daube Ph.D (22:50):
Well, the best way.
Since I'm retired, I'm notdoing much of anything actually,
except going on podcasts andtrying to help people deal with
emotional issues.
But the best way is to go toemotionsdoctorcom and that's my
blog with all kinds ofinformation on emotions, and you
(23:12):
can access that by going to thewebsite and pulling down the
index tab and clicking on theinformation of the specific
emotion that you want.
The other way is to go toAmazon and take a look at my
book on anger specifically.
There's a ton of usefulinformation in that it's an
(23:33):
audio book, it's a physical book, it's all on Amazon.
And again, the book is calledBeyond Anger Management Master
your Anger as a Strategic Tool,and it's on Amazon.
Fatima Bey The MindShifter (23:46):
Well , dr Dalby, thank you for coming
on and having this conversationand I hope that this episode
plants some thoughts in thosewho really need to grow their
garden of balance.
And, once again, thank you.
Ed Daube Ph.D (24:02):
Thank you for having me.
I hope it's been effective.
Fatima Bey The MindShifter (24:05):
And now for a mind shifting moment
For everyone listening out there.
If today's episode was aboutyou I'm talking to you right now
, while you're in a calm andlogical state I want you to go
back and listen again to thisentire episode and begin to
(24:26):
implement some of the thingsthat Dr Dalby talked about,
because when you're angry,you're not going to be logical
and you're not going to.
You'll just be in your feelings.
But the truth is, if you reallywant to start solving the
problems of getting the resultsand after effects of your bursts
(24:47):
of anger, you really want tostop.
If that's, you, go back andlisten to this episode again and
begin to implement everythingthat he said, because you can
overcome it, instead of stayingworldwide platforms, so you, too
(25:10):
, can be a part of theconversation that's changing
young lives everywhere, andalways remember there's power in
shifting your thinking.
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