July 2, 2025 • 35 mins
Redefining productivity (and actually slowing down) might be the KEY to preventing burnout in the nonprofit world.
Author, coach, and leadership expert Kishshana Palmer is joining me to break down what it really takes to do less, better, especially during your busiest fundraising seasons.
From her "RETHINK Method", which starts by challenging what productivity actually means - to embracing boundaries, joy, and rest as strategic advantages, Kishshana unpacks the pressures nonprofit professionals face and all the ways we can lead with intention instead of urgency. Burnout is NOT a badge of honor and shifting your energy can unlock more impact than overwork ever could.
You’ll also learn how to build a trustworthy team, cultivate a support circle that challenges your thinking, and reframe self-care as a responsibility (not a luxury). Kishshana’s insights are especially timely for leaders navigating year-end fundraising, donor engagement, and the never-ending to-do list!
Resources & Links
Connect with Kishshana on LinkedIn and follow her on Instagram and TikTok. You can also order her book, Busy Is a Four-Letter Word: A Guide to Achieving More by Doing Less.
This show is brought to you by iDonate. Your donation page is leaking donors, and iDonate's new pop-up donation form is here to fix that. See it in action. Launch the interactive demo here and experience how a well-timed form captures donors in the moment they care most.
Let's Connect!
- Send a DM on Instagram or LinkedIn and let us know what you think of the show!
- My book, The Monthly Giving Mastermind, is here! Grab a copy here and learn my framework to build, grow, and sustain subscriptions for good.
- Want to book Dana as a speaker for your event? Click here!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ooh, today is a good one.
Today, I am joined by theincomparable it's the best way
to put it Kashana Palmer.
She is the author of Busy is aFour Letter Word.
She's a coach, a trainer, apodcaster, a keynote speaker.
She is the foremost expert onthe future of collaborative
(00:21):
leadership and building thriving, high-performing teams, and
she's a joy to be around.
Her ethos is rooted in a trulypowerful belief that we have to
build together, and that startsby looking within.
She truly believes that havingamazing talent is the number one
competitive advantage in anyorganization, and her work
(00:43):
ensures that talent from thefront lines to the C-suite is
empowered to build vibrant,joyful cultures of philanthropy.
So in this episode, Kishanashares why she hit pause on a
growing business, what it lookslike to lead without burning out
, and how she's rewriting thenarrative around rest, joy and
boundaries.
(01:03):
So if you've ever felt likeyou're doing the most or trying
to figure out how to do less butbetter, this conversation is
for you.
So get ready for some laughter,some real truth telling and a
whole lot of wisdom.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
What are your priorities in this season of
your life?
For me, I had to get clearbecause I was on go as a single
mom.
I was not enjoying the buildingof my career, the building of
my business, the highs and lowsof being with somebody and
breaking up the highs and lowsof being a mom at different
developmental stages Okay Hell,the highs and lows of my
(01:40):
twenties, my thirties and myearly forties.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
I was just on autopilot, missing stuff.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
So you've got to really be able to say I end this
season of my life, what do Iactually have on my plate and
does everything actually belongon this plate?
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Okay, I am very excited because I have gone
through.
I'm showing Kish right now herbook on the screen with all of
my do you hear this?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
These are my post-it notes.
Oh my God, you know I'm likepop quiz.
That's what I really should do.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Basically, I told her I did give a slight heads up
and I said, okay, I did a lot ofpost-it notes.
And she did ask me via text canyou just give me a heads up on
the page numbers?
And so I was like 22, 98, 179.
Hot, hot.
And so I was like 22, 98, 179.
So I think it's the coolestthing when you actually get to
(02:32):
know the author, chat with theauthor, get the inside scoop of
the context, of why you wroteabout a certain thing, and I
think this topic and she's theauthor of Busy, the Four Letter
Word I talked about this in theintro already and she's the
author of Busy is a Four-LetterWord.
I talked about this in theintro already.
But leadership a little bit ofslowing down, sustainable
leadership and what that meanshow can we especially we're
(02:55):
about to go into the busiestseason in giving?
How do we do it differently?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
First of all, you're going to start with the hardest
question, okay.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
I think all of these questions will lead to you.
Read the book.
You can figure out how do youdo it differently If you didn't
like who maybe you were, or howthe team was run or the results
that you received last year.
If we do the same things youdid last time, it's going to
result Right.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Then they need really to book a session with me.
Okay, because we have someother things to talk about.
One of my girlfriends said tome the other day now just tell
me again why you went tobusiness school and did not get
your psych D and I was likeimmigrant kid problems, like
doctor lawyer business, likedoctor lawyer business, like
(03:44):
that was.
Those are my choices.
I really I didn't know.
There were other things otherthings.
Yeah, what you're doing now allthe other things oh my gosh,
every other thing and nothing atthe same time being.
I have to tell you so, forfolks who are like busy season,
what do we do?
First, slow your ass down,that's right.
Okay, I'll just yell at y'allthis whole time and just feel
the wind blow, like when you putin the best sound system ever
(04:07):
and then you're trying to testthe bass, the woofer oh, it's
the woofer.
Listen, slow your ass down.
That's exactly what I would betelling folks in order to be
able to do things differentlythis year.
Dana, you preach this from topto bottom.
Keep it simple.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Try, that's right.
Wait, okay, this is reallyperfect that you're just saying
all this right now.
Can I just start with Okay, youshare which I love that you
break down methods, frameworks.
There's a rethink method thatyou share, and the R is what I
really want to focus on.
This was my first post-it noteto everyone the rethink method,
and then you can give some morecontext.
(04:45):
But R is redefine productivity.
The first step, you say, isredefining what true
productivity means beyond justchecking tasks off, a
never-ending to-do list.
When I read this, it's not onlyit is highlighted and it has a
post-it note.
Can you explain what therethink method is and then
specifically why redefiningproductivity is so important?
Speaker 2 (05:07):
So part of the reason why I came up with the rethink
method is because you know wehave to name things, okay, and I
just do stuff.
And so I was like, well, I'vebeen doing this one thing for a
long time and essentially it'slike the answer typically is in
the room.
Oftentimes we're trying to findthe answer out there and I want
people to come in here, stepinto the room, and so rethinking
for me is slow it down.
(05:28):
Look at what you already havebefore you Approach things from
an asset position and not adeficit position.
Ooh, that's good.
So for those of us who are into, like, fixed mindset versus
growth mindset, that's Tashana'sversion of it.
Okay, and for many of us whogrew up, dana and I tell the
story a lot that I'm a New YorkCity public school kid and
(05:49):
growing up in the 80s, at theend of the school day, our
version of a gold star was apretzel stick.
So your teacher stood at thedoor with a box of stale ass
pretzels.
Okay, to this day, I lovepretzels.
I want y'all to know.
So I am clearly chasing thegold star, the gold star.
So some people have the goldstar.
Some of us have babies who havethe yellow light, red light,
(06:11):
green light.
They had a happy face, middleface.
Whatever your thing is, we arechasing this need to feel
accomplished.
So somebody said such a goodchild, you such a good girl.
And we chase thatprofessionally, we chase that in
our relationships, we chasethat when no one's looking.
And for me, rethinking that ishas the way you've been moving
(06:37):
the world really been servingyou from season to season, or
are you trying to like, do likehow we do at Thanksgiving, and
we get a Thanksgiving onThursday, then we get the
sandwich on the Friday, thenSaturday the salad, then Sunday
we're trying to do somethingelse.
Aren't you tired of this staleass turkey?
I just want people to reallyrethink how they're approaching
their life and their work, andso redefining productivity for
(07:01):
me was personal.
I definitely am of the stickynote, handwritten to-do list,
plus digital, plus reminders,plus time blocks in my calendar,
partly because of the way mybrain is set up.
Dana, you know this is goingfor me, for sure.
Same, but also I am chasing thathigh.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Yeah, we did it, and I think the quiet part out loud
for as many of us as leadersdoing the work that we do is
that we spend a lot more timefeeling like a failure.
And we do feel like we'resuccessful so much excitement
(07:40):
with that and so much going onand it was on the news and all
this stuff but then it soquickly passes in the hype and
then you think about, oh, whatcould I have done better?
Was it really a big hit?
The doomsday approach to things, instead of focusing on what
you're saying, the assets ofwhat you had and I also like the
E part, which I wasn't going togo into, but I'm going to talk
about the E and the rethink isevaluate your priorities.
(08:03):
Yes, so redefining not onlywhat productivity means, but
then evaluate and I love thispart what and who actually
deserves your time and energy.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Okay, listen, for those of us who are high
achievers, overachievers.
And just because you are anoverachiever doesn't mean that
you actually are effective orefficient.
And just because you are a highachiever does not mean that you
are effective or efficient orhappy does not mean that you are
effective or efficient or happy.
And for many of us who fallinto that high over category, we
also have either little P orbig P people pleasing somewhere
(08:36):
in our toolkit.
Okay, and we pull out thatthing all the time.
And I've had to learn the hardway that everybody does not
deserve my time and energy.
And because I show up 100hundred percent, full throttle,
so when I don't show up, peopleare like, oh you, all right,
because it's so obvious.
(08:56):
One of my girlfriends said tome recently I had a grand
opening, grand closing.
I was like now I think I'm likethe real 90 day fiance, okay.
And so she said I mean, it'strue, I'm really, I'm writing
about this.
Now she said to me Kashana, hasit ever occurred to you that
maybe the way you dole out yourenergy, whether it's a stranger
(09:18):
or a family member, thateverybody doesn't deserve the
same amount of energy?
Then she snatched my edge andshe said you know you wrote that
right in your book.
Right, you don't shut up?
Speaker 1 (09:29):
and leave me alone.
Use your own Against me, buthow often do we need that?
Like it's so much easier totell everybody else what to do,
what they're supposed to doversus actually listening to
your own advice all the time,which is why you need that, for
lack of a better expression.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Like that board of advisors, you need folks to be
able to remind you.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
That's my last post-it note.
Don't get there yet.
Oh no, my bad, We'll come backto it.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
But in terms of, like , evaluating your priorities, I
want people to lock intosomething very specific at work
and at home, the thing I wantpeople to think about is what
are your priorities in thisseason of your life?
And if you listen to anythingI've ever said, I talk about
that all the time because Ithink that it's something that,
for me, I had to get clearbecause I was on go as a single
(10:15):
mom.
I was not enjoying the buildingof my career, the building of
my business, the highs and lowsof being with somebody and
breaking up the highs and lowsof being a mom at different
developmental stages.
Okay, hell, the highs and lowsof my twenties, my thirties and
my early forties.
I was just on autopilot,missing stuff.
So you've got to really be ableto say at in this season of my
(10:38):
life, what do I actually have onmy plate and does everything
actually belong on this plate?
Sometimes y'all are givingentree attention to something
that's just in the moose, bush.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Which is so interesting to hear you say that
, because from the outside,before I knew you as well, I
just, like you, always hear likeI'm doing a top level all the
time, fierce, like fabulous.
Everything looks perfect RightFrom the outside perspective,
Meanwhile like you're goingthrough All the things, All the
things.
But again, this is another likeself-truth to understand, which
(11:15):
flows really nicely into whatyou're talking about on
limitations, yeah, and beinghonest about them.
So you really talk about beinghonest with yourself about
limitations is not a sign ofweakness, but rather a sign of
wisdom and self-awareness.
So at what point?
And we hope it doesn't meanreaching rock bottom.
(11:36):
Maybe this is like a chance toread this book and understand.
Oh, I'm not at my worst yet.
However, I feel like I could beon the steps where I am going
to be in a place that I am nothappy or that I am at risk of
burnout.
Yeah, when do you think createsthat turnaround?
Like the switch of realizingsomething and then actually
doing something about it.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
I think for many of us it is slowing down, and I
know this is probably CaptainObvious.
And then getting outside.
Now I am a city girl, okay, soI'm concrete over grass.
I want people to know that.
And then I bought a housethat's darn near in the country,
with woods behind it, and everyday I'm like, oh my God, what
bug is this?
And so for me to say getoutside, get with the earth,
(12:18):
like that is a thing yeah, it isReally literally.
Take your butt outside, standin the sun, close your eyes,
turn your face up, put your handto your heart, touch something
tangible on your body, put yourfeet on the ground and breathe
(12:38):
until your heart slows, untilyour brain slows.
The things that remain, whetherit's panic or something else,
are the things that you need tolock in on and decide what you
want to do about it.
Yeah, I love that.
Kashana, I don't have time.
Baby, you have hit rock bottom.
Hello, hello, you're there.
(12:59):
The I don't have time to evenhave time for myself is, in fact
, the indicator that, friend,you are hanging by the chin.
Listen, I'm in perimenopausenow, dana.
Okay, every day I look at mychin and I go what the hell is
happening here.
That's the season of my lifethat I'm in, so some of us are
hanging on by the end the hairof our chinny chin chin.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Got them too.
Got them too.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
And we're doing that at work.
We're doing that within ourorganizations, in our work plans
, in how we think about raisingcapital, in how we think about
approaching our donors, in howwe think about approaching our
teams.
We are frazzled and barelyhanging on and shook about
whether we should actually juststop and go.
What is going on in my liferight now?
(13:44):
Yeah, so that I can actuallybuild the kind of life I need
for this season.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
That's right.
Have you heard on the lesson of, like feet planted in the
ground where you are and asking,having your eyes closed?
Have you heard of you askyourself a question and you're
either naturally your bodystarts to lean forward or lean
back, yes, and your body's liketelling you, like, is this
(14:10):
something that's momentumforward moving, or if it's like
nope, like back up, it justnaturally starts to do it.
Have you heard that?
Speaker 2 (14:17):
I have, and for those , of us who are rockers, that
means your body is like there'sway too much stimuli going on.
Right, Our bodies are tellingus things all the time and if
you're not slowing down justenough to know where you are in
your this season, so you are ina toddler mom season.
You are in a business buildingseason.
(14:38):
You are coming into this likemezzanine stage of your marriage
.
Right, your marriage is out thetoddler stage.
Like you're thinking about allthese different movements that
have growth and then pause, andso there's a temptation to want
to do more in the pause, and myoffering is pause.
So true, Just enjoy stuff,Don't do nothing else.
Like you know what?
(14:59):
Today I'm doing nothing.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Today, I'm just put this, close this book.
Learn one more thing.
Make one more phone call, donothing.
I'm just about to go make thislittle salad and sit on this
deck and let this baby go dig inthe dirt, and that's it.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Yeah, oh, my God, you were speaking literally to me.
If there was ever a pause insomething.
I'm like, oh, next thing Mustkeep going.
I always feel this is so.
I feel bad when I like turn ona movie on a plane instead of
opening my laptop to work andjust relax.
I'm like, oh, I should open mylaptop and like do something.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
No, no, you should cry your eyes out because, for
whatever reason, being on aplane makes us cry at every
movie that comes on and clearlybeing on a plane is our body's
opportunity to release thetoxins that we have stored up.
That is just my personalopinion, although, dana, like
you, I do write on the plane allthe time.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
I know it's nice to be up there when, well, if
there's no wifi, then yes, Ijust don't turn the wifi on, I
know, but then, see, I have theego, I'm like I should turn on
the wifi, see, see, okay, wait,which?
This goes into the next thingyou talk about, which is a
healthy mind and body, arefoundational to sustained
productivity and innovativethinking.
(16:13):
So, integrating self-care andsomething that I love that you
said in here because it speaksto my soul, about coffee I love
my coffee, but I cannotcaffeinate myself to success.
I mean, if there was not a moretrue line in life.
So how does one like we'refeeling busy, our schedules are
(16:36):
crazy between our personal, ourwork life, and it can feel
almost like I don't know.
I think it's getting morecommon for it to be okay, but
sometimes it's a embarrassment'sthe wrong word like a guilt to
ask for time for yourself withinwork.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Yes.
So I want to try a reframe forfolks, for many of us who are
super busy, whether it'sself-imposed or otherwise.
And I said, some of us have bigP, some of us have little p,
people pleasing, we also have avery high sense of duty.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
And if you have a high sense of duty, you also
have a high sense ofresponsibility.
So I would offer it is yourresponsibility as a leader to
your team, to your organization,to your family, to yourself
flip the order self, family,organization, team, organization
to take care of yourself.
It's your responsibility.
(17:31):
You are being irresponsible Ifyou have a stroke getting off a
plane, coming from yet anothertrip, because you decided that
instead of relaxing or insteadof going to that doctor's
appointment that you rescheduledto put in that one more thing
and granted, accidents happen.
I'm not saying that, but mypoint is treat yourself as a
(17:55):
responsibility that you cannotlet down, that you are letting
down others when you do not takecare of yourself.
Someone asked me the other dayDana, how do I model for my team
?
That it's okay, that I wantthem to take time for themselves
?
I said take time for yourself.
Are you doing it right?
That's how you model for yourteam.
Like you literally say I'mtaking this time off and I have
(18:19):
a particular way that I likeleaders to do it annually,
quarterly, monthly and weeklyand to build into that.
But for you, for example, andfor me I would say, like being
able to go, what is either myfirst appointment or my last
appointment of the day?
And I would say, for my earlybirds like myself, your first
appointment of the day should bewith you.
If you're a person of faith,you and your creator.
(18:40):
If you're a person of believingin the universe, you and the
universe, you and the ancestors,you and your journaling, you
and mindfulness, you and workingout of sweat, you and some
combination of those things.
But your first meeting of theday, for which you get a
performance evaluation hello, iswith yourself.
And so I have a girlfriend whoshe has a slow start every day
(19:01):
and in her bedroom she has aFrench press and a teapot, and
she's a small child, so she hasa two-year-old, and she has a
six-year-old who actually has anillness, a teapot, and she's a
small child.
So she has a two-year-old andshe has a six-year-old who
actually has an illness, and soshe gets up an hour and change
earlier than they normally doevery day so that she can pour
her.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
French press.
Yes, it makes a huge differencethe days that I do that before
Kennedy wakes up.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Yeah, and she looks outside the window.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
I said what do you do ?
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Pray and look out the window.
Cause out the window, I said.
What do you do?
Pray, look out the window,because y'all don't waste time.
No, you're not being able tonot hit that snooze button, but
open your eyes, give thanks, letyour feet touch the ground,
breathe deeply and then stepinto, whether it's 15 minutes or
it's 50 minutes for yourself.
Now for my night owls.
Maybe you are the person thatyou're like.
(19:47):
Look, the sweet spot is 1 amGreat.
Then your wind down needs tostart about 12, 15.
And you take your time as youshut things down, you put on the
nice PJs.
If you sleep in PJs, you makesure the sheets are fresh.
You do those small luxuries.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
So that you can step into yourself Because, depending
on your age in life, some of usneed to sweat and some of us
need to sleep.
I need both, right, you know?
Yes, there's little stomachflaps to set up.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
I can't.
There is something amazing forme about movement, whether it's
running or or just like workingout in a class.
I don't do the gym because thenI will quit and I will just get
on my phone.
I need a class so that my phoneis in the locker.
Don't look at it.
I am focused Although I dopretty good on runs most of the
time because I listen to like apodcast or a book or something
(20:42):
Okay, and I think these all fitso well together in the book and
I don't know if you likeordered it in this way or not,
and I, by the way, everyone I'mgoing in order from like,
beginning through the book- Ilike that.
So, talking about self-care andwhen you're having your
self-care, there should bedelegation involved, so that you
don't feel like everything'sjust sitting on your plate and
you say delegation comes mucheasier to me now.
(21:03):
Why?
Two things I have a team Itrust who will yank things off
my plate, and two, I trustmyself to let go.
That's right.
This is big.
Nearly a lot of organizationsin our sector are one person
shops, maybe two person shops,and there's a massive fear,
(21:25):
uncertainty, thinking we can't.
And I think what's reallyinteresting is, I mean, you and
I are pretty much like soloshops for the most part.
We have these very, very smallteams around us and we're,
makeup-wise, similar to theseorganizations.
That's right.
But yeah, there's a bigdifference in what we let go of
(21:48):
or are okay to say, yeah, Idon't do that, I shouldn't be
doing that, I'm going to hiresomebody else to come in and do
that Exactly right.
How do you work with yourclients through that mindset?
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Yeah To your darlings .
I start with that.
So one of the things that I didlast year with my team is I
allowed them to say no to meabout everything First they
started with.
Can you not text us one moretime in the middle of the night
with a bright idea?
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Wait, you text them in the middle of the night.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
No, but I mean, you know, before send later I was in
Slack and I was schedulinglater.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But they could always tell thatI did something in the middle
of the night because of the typeof idea it was, because it'd be
like amazing and big andhalf-baked.
Don't bother me with thedetails, y'all figure it out.
I'm thinking this thing's goingto have nine steps 90 steps.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Oh my God, you are totally bringing me back to
corporate.
I did have a boss who used tomessage me at like 11 pm, and I
would think that I would thenhave to respond, because the
message and then finally heended up saying Dana, I'm hoping
you're not looking at your, Idon't want you to be looking at
them.
And until that was stated,though, I was assuming the
expectation was oh, I need toinstantly respond to this.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Oh, I would have too, and every aspect of my career.
But I was being very explicitlike please don't.
But now I've gotten better.
We have tools now that help usto do scheduling, but they can
always tell.
It's the type of idea and so Iwould start Slack messages like
hey, I was thinking, and Blythewould immediately be like no,
that's awesome Half the timethey don't know what I was
(23:26):
thinking.
Nevermind, man, I was keeping inmy little notes that she gave
me a little folder to put thingsthat cannot be discussed, but I
gave my team basically thepermission to say I don't always
know the answer, treat me likethe talent, make sure that I am
where I'm supposed to be.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
That was such a great idea.
For those of you who are fellow, just like idea people all the
time big ideas stick them in afolder.
I do the same thing.
I brain thump on Kat, on myteam, all the time I'm like this
idea and she's like, okay,we're going to move on.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
They think every idea is like, oh, we should do this,
and I'm like no.
So for those folks who are inorganizations, here's how it
looks when I'm in-house, I havetime set aside for ideation.
I identify very early on who ismy ideation partner, Like who's
the person who can go 5150 withme, but they also can go oh,
come to breaks.
Have five things that need toget done to make that one thing
(24:18):
happen and allow that process tohappen.
So I think that's reallyimportant.
And then I think the otherthing is to make sure you have
an opportunity and whetheryou're in a two-person shop or
you're responding to the boardor volunteers, that you have an
opportunity to have step backs.
That should be built into anyplan.
You do a purposeful opportunityto pause and say is this working
?
Why are we doing this?
(24:39):
Does it make sense to continue?
Would something else, that is,a lower lift, have higher impact
and be unafraid to just stop?
Because otherwise what you'recontinuing to do, friends, by
being more busy, pretending tobe productive, by adding more
things on your plate and beingstressed out, is you essentially
(25:03):
are becoming a martyr andsuffering from martyritis at
work because you're like I am sooverwhelmed and I want
everybody to know I'moverwhelmed and I want us to
release that and figure out whois around us that are the better
who's at getting stuff done, sothat we are released to do the
(25:24):
things that we are better atgetting done.
And if you are in a small shop,that means there are less
things to get done, not lesspeople to get all done, which
are very, very different.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Everyone hit rewind for about three of the 30
seconds Usually I think it's 30seconds on my watch Three times,
replay what she just said.
Apply that to what you do.
Remember what I said.
Hit rewind about three timesMaybe not at this point, maybe
four.
Get through me.
(25:58):
Such good advice and I thinkthis beautifully ties into you.
Talked about the who.
You have a big old circle.
You have a box around it.
I put like a star on it,cultivating your circle of
support.
Yep, you say it.
Box around it.
I put like a star on itCultivating your circle of
support.
Yep, you see, it's essential toseek out individuals who bring
diverse perspectives and skillsto the table.
(26:19):
Diversity in your network canlead to more innovative
solutions and a broader range ofopportunities.
Embrace different backgrounds,experiences and viewpoints can
enrich your own understandingand help you navigate challenges
with a more well-roundedapproach.
So, building that professionalnetwork Thoughts Someone who's
doing this by themselves rightnow.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Stop navel gazing Right.
I need folks.
So I'll give you a personalanalogy to apply professionally.
So now I'm single again.
I'm not ready to start datingagain, but then you know when I
was in New York.
I was in the street.
No, I wasn't, y'all, I reallywasn't.
I was at the soccer field andthe track meets, okay, but I
thought I was going to be in thestreet when I moved here.
So one of the things that Iused to do, I remember when I
(27:01):
was dating before, was peoplewould be out.
I'd be out with my girlfriendsand folks would be on their
phone, not me.
I'm looking up my littlemocktail or cocktail, depending
on the time of day, just lookingaround being nosy Because I was
like, oh, I love to peoplewatch.
So what I want people to do is,professionally, stop looking at
your phone and look up Join thatmeetup for professionals in
(27:25):
your age range or in yourprofession type or in your
complementary profession.
So if you are leading monthlygiving right now, that means you
need a whole lot of people whoare going to decide to put their
credit card and let it rock outuntil it expires, which, if you
are lucky, three years, fouryears, whatever the math is
right.
Just let it rock out and thenswitch to ACH and then switch to
(27:47):
ACH so that it never ends,hallelujah, okay, here's the
thing.
They may not be other nonprofitprofessionals.
Oh likely not?
What are the psychographics ofthe types of folks who are
attracted to your mission, right?
What are the things thatthey're interested in?
Guaranteed, one of those thingsis going to be one of your
hobbies, if you don't go findyourself down.
The other day you said you liketo run.
(28:09):
I'm not running from nothing,dana.
Okay, I'm just wondering, whatare you running from?
Okay, but I did join a slowwalkers club, so there's like
slow runners, walkers, and I waslike so speed walking on the
South side where I live.
And the reason I joined that isbecause I want to meet people
who are fit and who want to beactive but who, like me, are
like why are we running againactive?
(28:30):
But who, like me, are like whyare we running again?
But they know we have to move.
So we're moving and I know I'mgoing to meet other business
owners.
I'm going to meet folks who areretired who's you know, this
person or that person they wereconnected to, and this and that.
And I'm going to meet youngpeople who want to get me
connected here.
I know I'm going to meet peoplewho are going to need the types
of things that I want to do and, if I'm real lucky.
I'm real lucky.
I'm probably going to meet afriend.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
This happens, and everywhere, like sitting at a
bar, correct, I remember I meanused to ride in New York a lot.
I used to live there too on thesubway.
99.9% of people are down ontheir phones and sometimes you'd
be amazed by just like somebodyreading a book.
It's like, oh, I read that booktoo, and then you strike up
this really amazing conversationwhen your eyes are up.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
That's right.
That's right, that's right, andI think that for me and I am I
think I would now say I'm anambivert, but for a long time I
was a true introvert with anextroverted life and personality
.
Because I'm bubbly, peopleexpect me to be an extrovert and
because I was in the world inthe business of people pleasing,
I was doing what I thought wassupposed to happen as opposed to
what I really wanted to happen,and so being intentional in the
(29:33):
season of your life.
If you are a parent, acaregiver, a guardian, for
example, and your entire worldright now is around those kids,
take that baby out of oneactivity coming into the fall or
summer.
Take them out.
You know why.
They don't care.
You care.
Be clear, that's your ego, nottheir interests, and then insert
something for yourself.
Thank me later.
(29:58):
I was a single mom for 14 years.
I might know a thing or twoabout that.
Okay, and so being able to giveyourself the opportunity to be
human and human well in theworld, actually is modeling for
your children, the people you'reguarding for your parent, if
you're taking care of them, thatyou actually come first and by
being selfish in that way, youthen have the space to be of
(30:19):
service without resentment, yes,which will make you more apt to
go out and meet people, becauseyou're not like.
Oh God, people, oh Lord, I gotto get a haircut.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
We want to release the whole thing and then you're
going to find your crew and tobe in community with.
It's the best ever.
So good, it's the best ever,okay.
So, speaking of intentions, youwere so gracious with your time
.
I want everyone to right nowhave the intention to go connect
with you when should they dothat?
Speaker 2 (30:51):
I'm probably the only Kashana you're ever going to
meet, and so I'm Kashana Palmeracross all platforms.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
Hello SEO.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Hello, k-i-s-h-s-h-a-n-a Palmer, I hang
out.
Listen.
If you want to know my fashionand my foolishness, it's on
Instagram.
If you want to know myrelationship, foolishness that's
on TikTok y'all, I'm tryingsomething out.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
I'm writing on Substack now more than ever,
okay.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
And, of course, professionally on LinkedIn.
So stepping into Kashanaverseis just a matter of looking me
up.
Definitely grab the book Ifyou'd like to listen to books.
It's the sound of my voicey'all it is.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
It's like a warm-.
I asked you all the questions.
We were talking about this andI was like how did it go?
How is it?
It's hard, it's hard, it isreally hard.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
One of the best times I've ever had, but also one of
the ones that I wanted to throwthat headphones every time.
But I do not regret being ableto have the opportunity to
record my own audio book.
If you are a visual learner,obviously grab the book, but
also watch some of my shorts andvideos, because I talk about
the thing that I talk about andthe thing that I want folks to
know about the book the most is,you can read one chapter and
(31:54):
put it down, treat it like aready reference for your life
and if there's something thatyou're navigating personally or
professionally or both, theprobability is high that I've
written something that, in 15pages or so, can get you right
and get you on the right track.
And that's because for me, dana, one of my strengths is being
an activator.
I'm the person that's going toget folks off the starting block
(32:16):
and then figuring out how todelegate, leveraging the chapter
that you read as a readyreference to invite others in to
how they help you win in thisseason, so good.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
So good.
Basically, just hit rewind onthe whole episode and listen to
it again.
Kish, you're amazing.
Thank you so much.
Everyone Go check it out.
Busy is a four letter word.
I will link to it in the shownotes.
Kish, thank you.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Love you Mina.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Thank you so much for tuning into today's episode of
Missions to Movements.
If you enjoyed our conversationand found it helpful, I would
love for you to take a moment toleave a review.
Wherever you're listening, yourfeedback helps us reach more
changemakers like you andcontinue bringing impactful
stories and strategies to theshow.
(33:06):
Don't forget to hit thatsubscribe button too, so you'll
never miss an episode, and untilnext time, keep turning your
mission into a movement.
Ooh, today is a good one.
Today, I am joined by theincomparable it's the best way
to put it Kashana Palmer.
She is the author of Busy is aFour Letter Word.
She's a coach, a trainer, apodcaster, a keynote speaker.
She is the foremost expert onthe future of collaborative
(00:21):
leadership and building thriving, high-performing teams, and
she's a joy to be around.
Her ethos is rooted in a trulypowerful belief that we have to
build together, and that startsby looking within.
She truly believes that havingamazing talent is the number one
competitive advantage in anyorganization, and her work
(00:43):
ensures that talent from thefront lines to the C-suite is
empowered to build vibrant,joyful cultures of philanthropy.
So in this episode, Kishanashares why she hit pause on a
growing business, what it lookslike to lead without burning out
, and how she's rewriting thenarrative around rest, joy and
boundaries.
(01:03):
So if you've ever felt likeyou're doing the most or trying
to figure out how to do less butbetter, this conversation is
for you.
So get ready for some laughter,some real truth telling and a
whole lot of wisdom.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
What are your priorities in this season of
your life?
For me, I had to get clearbecause I was on go as a single
mom.
I was not enjoying the buildingof my career, the building of
my business, the highs and lowsof being with somebody and
breaking up the highs and lowsof being a mom at different
developmental stages Okay Hell,the highs and lows of my
(01:40):
twenties, my thirties and myearly forties.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
I was just on autopilot, missing stuff.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
So you've got to really be able to say I end this
season of my life, what do Iactually have on my plate and
does everything actually belongon this plate?
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Okay, I am very excited because I have gone
through.
I'm showing Kish right now herbook on the screen with all of
my do you hear this?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
These are my post-it notes.
Oh my God, you know I'm likepop quiz.
That's what I really should do.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Basically, I told her I did give a slight heads up
and I said, okay, I did a lot ofpost-it notes.
And she did ask me via text canyou just give me a heads up on
the page numbers?
And so I was like 22, 98, 179.
Hot, hot.
And so I was like 22, 98, 179.
So I think it's the coolestthing when you actually get to
(02:32):
know the author, chat with theauthor, get the inside scoop of
the context, of why you wroteabout a certain thing, and I
think this topic and she's theauthor of Busy, the Four Letter
Word I talked about this in theintro already and she's the
author of Busy is a Four-LetterWord.
I talked about this in theintro already.
But leadership a little bit ofslowing down, sustainable
leadership and what that meanshow can we especially we're
(02:55):
about to go into the busiestseason in giving?
How do we do it differently?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
First of all, you're going to start with the hardest
question, okay.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
I think all of these questions will lead to you.
Read the book.
You can figure out how do youdo it differently If you didn't
like who maybe you were, or howthe team was run or the results
that you received last year.
If we do the same things youdid last time, it's going to
result Right.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Then they need really to book a session with me.
Okay, because we have someother things to talk about.
One of my girlfriends said tome the other day now just tell
me again why you went tobusiness school and did not get
your psych D and I was likeimmigrant kid problems, like
doctor lawyer business, likedoctor lawyer business, like
(03:44):
that was.
Those are my choices.
I really I didn't know.
There were other things otherthings.
Yeah, what you're doing now allthe other things oh my gosh,
every other thing and nothing atthe same time being.
I have to tell you so, forfolks who are like busy season,
what do we do?
First, slow your ass down,that's right.
Okay, I'll just yell at y'allthis whole time and just feel
the wind blow, like when you putin the best sound system ever
(04:07):
and then you're trying to testthe bass, the woofer oh, it's
the woofer.
Listen, slow your ass down.
That's exactly what I would betelling folks in order to be
able to do things differentlythis year.
Dana, you preach this from topto bottom.
Keep it simple.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Try, that's right.
Wait, okay, this is reallyperfect that you're just saying
all this right now.
Can I just start with Okay, youshare which I love that you
break down methods, frameworks.
There's a rethink method thatyou share, and the R is what I
really want to focus on.
This was my first post-it noteto everyone the rethink method,
and then you can give some morecontext.
(04:45):
But R is redefine productivity.
The first step, you say, isredefining what true
productivity means beyond justchecking tasks off, a
never-ending to-do list.
When I read this, it's not onlyit is highlighted and it has a
post-it note.
Can you explain what therethink method is and then
specifically why redefiningproductivity is so important?
Speaker 2 (05:07):
So part of the reason why I came up with the rethink
method is because you know wehave to name things, okay, and I
just do stuff.
And so I was like, well, I'vebeen doing this one thing for a
long time and essentially it'slike the answer typically is in
the room.
Oftentimes we're trying to findthe answer out there and I want
people to come in here, stepinto the room, and so rethinking
for me is slow it down.
(05:28):
Look at what you already havebefore you Approach things from
an asset position and not adeficit position.
Ooh, that's good.
So for those of us who are into, like, fixed mindset versus
growth mindset, that's Tashana'sversion of it.
Okay, and for many of us whogrew up, dana and I tell the
story a lot that I'm a New YorkCity public school kid and
(05:49):
growing up in the 80s, at theend of the school day, our
version of a gold star was apretzel stick.
So your teacher stood at thedoor with a box of stale ass
pretzels.
Okay, to this day, I lovepretzels.
I want y'all to know.
So I am clearly chasing thegold star, the gold star.
So some people have the goldstar.
Some of us have babies who havethe yellow light, red light,
(06:11):
green light.
They had a happy face, middleface.
Whatever your thing is, we arechasing this need to feel
accomplished.
So somebody said such a goodchild, you such a good girl.
And we chase thatprofessionally, we chase that in
our relationships, we chasethat when no one's looking.
And for me, rethinking that ishas the way you've been moving
(06:37):
the world really been servingyou from season to season, or
are you trying to like, do likehow we do at Thanksgiving, and
we get a Thanksgiving onThursday, then we get the
sandwich on the Friday, thenSaturday the salad, then Sunday
we're trying to do somethingelse.
Aren't you tired of this staleass turkey?
I just want people to reallyrethink how they're approaching
their life and their work, andso redefining productivity for
(07:01):
me was personal.
I definitely am of the stickynote, handwritten to-do list,
plus digital, plus reminders,plus time blocks in my calendar,
partly because of the way mybrain is set up.
Dana, you know this is goingfor me, for sure.
Same, but also I am chasing thathigh.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Yeah, we did it, and I think the quiet part out loud
for as many of us as leadersdoing the work that we do is
that we spend a lot more timefeeling like a failure.
And we do feel like we'resuccessful so much excitement
(07:40):
with that and so much going onand it was on the news and all
this stuff but then it soquickly passes in the hype and
then you think about, oh, whatcould I have done better?
Was it really a big hit?
The doomsday approach to things, instead of focusing on what
you're saying, the assets ofwhat you had and I also like the
E part, which I wasn't going togo into, but I'm going to talk
about the E and the rethink isevaluate your priorities.
(08:03):
Yes, so redefining not onlywhat productivity means, but
then evaluate and I love thispart what and who actually
deserves your time and energy.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Okay, listen, for those of us who are high
achievers, overachievers.
And just because you are anoverachiever doesn't mean that
you actually are effective orefficient.
And just because you are a highachiever does not mean that you
are effective or efficient orhappy does not mean that you are
effective or efficient or happy.
And for many of us who fallinto that high over category, we
also have either little P orbig P people pleasing somewhere
(08:36):
in our toolkit.
Okay, and we pull out thatthing all the time.
And I've had to learn the hardway that everybody does not
deserve my time and energy.
And because I show up 100hundred percent, full throttle,
so when I don't show up, peopleare like, oh you, all right,
because it's so obvious.
(08:56):
One of my girlfriends said tome recently I had a grand
opening, grand closing.
I was like now I think I'm likethe real 90 day fiance, okay.
And so she said I mean, it'strue, I'm really, I'm writing
about this.
Now she said to me Kashana, hasit ever occurred to you that
maybe the way you dole out yourenergy, whether it's a stranger
(09:18):
or a family member, thateverybody doesn't deserve the
same amount of energy?
Then she snatched my edge andshe said you know you wrote that
right in your book.
Right, you don't shut up?
Speaker 1 (09:29):
and leave me alone.
Use your own Against me, buthow often do we need that?
Like it's so much easier totell everybody else what to do,
what they're supposed to doversus actually listening to
your own advice all the time,which is why you need that, for
lack of a better expression.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Like that board of advisors, you need folks to be
able to remind you.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
That's my last post-it note.
Don't get there yet.
Oh no, my bad, We'll come backto it.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
But in terms of, like , evaluating your priorities, I
want people to lock intosomething very specific at work
and at home, the thing I wantpeople to think about is what
are your priorities in thisseason of your life?
And if you listen to anythingI've ever said, I talk about
that all the time because Ithink that it's something that,
for me, I had to get clearbecause I was on go as a single
(10:15):
mom.
I was not enjoying the buildingof my career, the building of
my business, the highs and lowsof being with somebody and
breaking up the highs and lowsof being a mom at different
developmental stages.
Okay, hell, the highs and lowsof my twenties, my thirties and
my early forties.
I was just on autopilot,missing stuff.
So you've got to really be ableto say at in this season of my
(10:38):
life, what do I actually have onmy plate and does everything
actually belong on this plate?
Sometimes y'all are givingentree attention to something
that's just in the moose, bush.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Which is so interesting to hear you say that
, because from the outside,before I knew you as well, I
just, like you, always hear likeI'm doing a top level all the
time, fierce, like fabulous.
Everything looks perfect RightFrom the outside perspective,
Meanwhile like you're goingthrough All the things, All the
things.
But again, this is another likeself-truth to understand, which
(11:15):
flows really nicely into whatyou're talking about on
limitations, yeah, and beinghonest about them.
So you really talk about beinghonest with yourself about
limitations is not a sign ofweakness, but rather a sign of
wisdom and self-awareness.
So at what point?
And we hope it doesn't meanreaching rock bottom.
(11:36):
Maybe this is like a chance toread this book and understand.
Oh, I'm not at my worst yet.
However, I feel like I could beon the steps where I am going
to be in a place that I am nothappy or that I am at risk of
burnout.
Yeah, when do you think createsthat turnaround?
Like the switch of realizingsomething and then actually
doing something about it.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
I think for many of us it is slowing down, and I
know this is probably CaptainObvious.
And then getting outside.
Now I am a city girl, okay, soI'm concrete over grass.
I want people to know that.
And then I bought a housethat's darn near in the country,
with woods behind it, and everyday I'm like, oh my God, what
bug is this?
And so for me to say getoutside, get with the earth,
(12:18):
like that is a thing yeah, it isReally literally.
Take your butt outside, standin the sun, close your eyes,
turn your face up, put your handto your heart, touch something
tangible on your body, put yourfeet on the ground and breathe
(12:38):
until your heart slows, untilyour brain slows.
The things that remain, whetherit's panic or something else,
are the things that you need tolock in on and decide what you
want to do about it.
Yeah, I love that.
Kashana, I don't have time.
Baby, you have hit rock bottom.
Hello, hello, you're there.
(12:59):
The I don't have time to evenhave time for myself is, in fact
, the indicator that, friend,you are hanging by the chin.
Listen, I'm in perimenopausenow, dana.
Okay, every day I look at mychin and I go what the hell is
happening here.
That's the season of my lifethat I'm in, so some of us are
hanging on by the end the hairof our chinny chin chin.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Got them too.
Got them too.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
And we're doing that at work.
We're doing that within ourorganizations, in our work plans
, in how we think about raisingcapital, in how we think about
approaching our donors, in howwe think about approaching our
teams.
We are frazzled and barelyhanging on and shook about
whether we should actually juststop and go.
What is going on in my liferight now?
(13:44):
Yeah, so that I can actuallybuild the kind of life I need
for this season.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
That's right.
Have you heard on the lesson of, like feet planted in the
ground where you are and asking,having your eyes closed?
Have you heard of you askyourself a question and you're
either naturally your bodystarts to lean forward or lean
back, yes, and your body's liketelling you, like, is this
(14:10):
something that's momentumforward moving, or if it's like
nope, like back up, it justnaturally starts to do it.
Have you heard that?
Speaker 2 (14:17):
I have, and for those , of us who are rockers, that
means your body is like there'sway too much stimuli going on.
Right, Our bodies are tellingus things all the time and if
you're not slowing down justenough to know where you are in
your this season, so you are ina toddler mom season.
You are in a business buildingseason.
(14:38):
You are coming into this likemezzanine stage of your marriage
.
Right, your marriage is out thetoddler stage.
Like you're thinking about allthese different movements that
have growth and then pause, andso there's a temptation to want
to do more in the pause, and myoffering is pause.
So true, Just enjoy stuff,Don't do nothing else.
Like you know what?
(14:59):
Today I'm doing nothing.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Today, I'm just put this, close this book.
Learn one more thing.
Make one more phone call, donothing.
I'm just about to go make thislittle salad and sit on this
deck and let this baby go dig inthe dirt, and that's it.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Yeah, oh, my God, you were speaking literally to me.
If there was ever a pause insomething.
I'm like, oh, next thing Mustkeep going.
I always feel this is so.
I feel bad when I like turn ona movie on a plane instead of
opening my laptop to work andjust relax.
I'm like, oh, I should open mylaptop and like do something.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
No, no, you should cry your eyes out because, for
whatever reason, being on aplane makes us cry at every
movie that comes on and clearlybeing on a plane is our body's
opportunity to release thetoxins that we have stored up.
That is just my personalopinion, although, dana, like
you, I do write on the plane allthe time.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
I know it's nice to be up there when, well, if
there's no wifi, then yes, Ijust don't turn the wifi on, I
know, but then, see, I have theego, I'm like I should turn on
the wifi, see, see, okay, wait,which?
This goes into the next thingyou talk about, which is a
healthy mind and body, arefoundational to sustained
productivity and innovativethinking.
(16:13):
So, integrating self-care andsomething that I love that you
said in here because it speaksto my soul, about coffee I love
my coffee, but I cannotcaffeinate myself to success.
I mean, if there was not a moretrue line in life.
So how does one like we'refeeling busy, our schedules are
(16:36):
crazy between our personal, ourwork life, and it can feel
almost like I don't know.
I think it's getting morecommon for it to be okay, but
sometimes it's a embarrassment'sthe wrong word like a guilt to
ask for time for yourself withinwork.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Yes.
So I want to try a reframe forfolks, for many of us who are
super busy, whether it'sself-imposed or otherwise.
And I said, some of us have bigP, some of us have little p,
people pleasing, we also have avery high sense of duty.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
And if you have a high sense of duty, you also
have a high sense ofresponsibility.
So I would offer it is yourresponsibility as a leader to
your team, to your organization,to your family, to yourself
flip the order self, family,organization, team, organization
to take care of yourself.
It's your responsibility.
(17:31):
You are being irresponsible Ifyou have a stroke getting off a
plane, coming from yet anothertrip, because you decided that
instead of relaxing or insteadof going to that doctor's
appointment that you rescheduledto put in that one more thing
and granted, accidents happen.
I'm not saying that, but mypoint is treat yourself as a
(17:55):
responsibility that you cannotlet down, that you are letting
down others when you do not takecare of yourself.
Someone asked me the other dayDana, how do I model for my team
?
That it's okay, that I wantthem to take time for themselves
?
I said take time for yourself.
Are you doing it right?
That's how you model for yourteam.
Like you literally say I'mtaking this time off and I have
(18:19):
a particular way that I likeleaders to do it annually,
quarterly, monthly and weeklyand to build into that.
But for you, for example, andfor me I would say, like being
able to go, what is either myfirst appointment or my last
appointment of the day?
And I would say, for my earlybirds like myself, your first
appointment of the day should bewith you.
If you're a person of faith,you and your creator.
(18:40):
If you're a person of believingin the universe, you and the
universe, you and the ancestors,you and your journaling, you
and mindfulness, you and workingout of sweat, you and some
combination of those things.
But your first meeting of theday, for which you get a
performance evaluation hello, iswith yourself.
And so I have a girlfriend whoshe has a slow start every day
(19:01):
and in her bedroom she has aFrench press and a teapot, and
she's a small child, so she hasa two-year-old, and she has a
six-year-old who actually has anillness, a teapot, and she's a
small child.
So she has a two-year-old andshe has a six-year-old who
actually has an illness, and soshe gets up an hour and change
earlier than they normally doevery day so that she can pour
her.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
French press.
Yes, it makes a huge differencethe days that I do that before
Kennedy wakes up.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Yeah, and she looks outside the window.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
I said what do you do ?
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Pray and look out the window.
Cause out the window, I said.
What do you do?
Pray, look out the window,because y'all don't waste time.
No, you're not being able tonot hit that snooze button, but
open your eyes, give thanks, letyour feet touch the ground,
breathe deeply and then stepinto, whether it's 15 minutes or
it's 50 minutes for yourself.
Now for my night owls.
Maybe you are the person thatyou're like.
(19:47):
Look, the sweet spot is 1 amGreat.
Then your wind down needs tostart about 12, 15.
And you take your time as youshut things down, you put on the
nice PJs.
If you sleep in PJs, you makesure the sheets are fresh.
You do those small luxuries.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
So that you can step into yourself Because, depending
on your age in life, some of usneed to sweat and some of us
need to sleep.
I need both, right, you know?
Yes, there's little stomachflaps to set up.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
I can't.
There is something amazing forme about movement, whether it's
running or or just like workingout in a class.
I don't do the gym because thenI will quit and I will just get
on my phone.
I need a class so that my phoneis in the locker.
Don't look at it.
I am focused Although I dopretty good on runs most of the
time because I listen to like apodcast or a book or something
(20:42):
Okay, and I think these all fitso well together in the book and
I don't know if you likeordered it in this way or not,
and I, by the way, everyone I'mgoing in order from like,
beginning through the book- Ilike that.
So, talking about self-care andwhen you're having your
self-care, there should bedelegation involved, so that you
don't feel like everything'sjust sitting on your plate and
you say delegation comes mucheasier to me now.
(21:03):
Why?
Two things I have a team Itrust who will yank things off
my plate, and two, I trustmyself to let go.
That's right.
This is big.
Nearly a lot of organizationsin our sector are one person
shops, maybe two person shops,and there's a massive fear,
(21:25):
uncertainty, thinking we can't.
And I think what's reallyinteresting is, I mean, you and
I are pretty much like soloshops for the most part.
We have these very, very smallteams around us and we're,
makeup-wise, similar to theseorganizations.
That's right.
But yeah, there's a bigdifference in what we let go of
(21:48):
or are okay to say, yeah, Idon't do that, I shouldn't be
doing that, I'm going to hiresomebody else to come in and do
that Exactly right.
How do you work with yourclients through that mindset?
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Yeah To your darlings .
I start with that.
So one of the things that I didlast year with my team is I
allowed them to say no to meabout everything First they
started with.
Can you not text us one moretime in the middle of the night
with a bright idea?
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Wait, you text them in the middle of the night.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
No, but I mean, you know, before send later I was in
Slack and I was schedulinglater.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But they could always tell thatI did something in the middle
of the night because of the typeof idea it was, because it'd be
like amazing and big andhalf-baked.
Don't bother me with thedetails, y'all figure it out.
I'm thinking this thing's goingto have nine steps 90 steps.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
Oh my God, you are totally bringing me back to
corporate.
I did have a boss who used tomessage me at like 11 pm, and I
would think that I would thenhave to respond, because the
message and then finally heended up saying Dana, I'm hoping
you're not looking at your, Idon't want you to be looking at
them.
And until that was stated,though, I was assuming the
expectation was oh, I need toinstantly respond to this.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Oh, I would have too, and every aspect of my career.
But I was being very explicitlike please don't.
But now I've gotten better.
We have tools now that help usto do scheduling, but they can
always tell.
It's the type of idea and so Iwould start Slack messages like
hey, I was thinking, and Blythewould immediately be like no,
that's awesome Half the timethey don't know what I was
(23:26):
thinking.
Nevermind, man, I was keeping inmy little notes that she gave
me a little folder to put thingsthat cannot be discussed, but I
gave my team basically thepermission to say I don't always
know the answer, treat me likethe talent, make sure that I am
where I'm supposed to be.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
That was such a great idea.
For those of you who are fellow, just like idea people all the
time big ideas stick them in afolder.
I do the same thing.
I brain thump on Kat, on myteam, all the time I'm like this
idea and she's like, okay,we're going to move on.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
They think every idea is like, oh, we should do this,
and I'm like no.
So for those folks who are inorganizations, here's how it
looks when I'm in-house, I havetime set aside for ideation.
I identify very early on who ismy ideation partner, Like who's
the person who can go 5150 withme, but they also can go oh,
come to breaks.
Have five things that need toget done to make that one thing
(24:18):
happen and allow that process tohappen.
So I think that's reallyimportant.
And then I think the otherthing is to make sure you have
an opportunity and whetheryou're in a two-person shop or
you're responding to the boardor volunteers, that you have an
opportunity to have step backs.
That should be built into anyplan.
You do a purposeful opportunityto pause and say is this working
?
Why are we doing this?
(24:39):
Does it make sense to continue?
Would something else, that is,a lower lift, have higher impact
and be unafraid to just stop?
Because otherwise what you'recontinuing to do, friends, by
being more busy, pretending tobe productive, by adding more
things on your plate and beingstressed out, is you essentially
(25:03):
are becoming a martyr andsuffering from martyritis at
work because you're like I am sooverwhelmed and I want
everybody to know I'moverwhelmed and I want us to
release that and figure out whois around us that are the better
who's at getting stuff done, sothat we are released to do the
(25:24):
things that we are better atgetting done.
And if you are in a small shop,that means there are less
things to get done, not lesspeople to get all done, which
are very, very different.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Everyone hit rewind for about three of the 30
seconds Usually I think it's 30seconds on my watch Three times,
replay what she just said.
Apply that to what you do.
Remember what I said.
Hit rewind about three timesMaybe not at this point, maybe
four.
Get through me.
(25:58):
Such good advice and I thinkthis beautifully ties into you.
Talked about the who.
You have a big old circle.
You have a box around it.
I put like a star on it,cultivating your circle of
support.
Yep, you say it.
Box around it.
I put like a star on itCultivating your circle of
support.
Yep, you see, it's essential toseek out individuals who bring
diverse perspectives and skillsto the table.
(26:19):
Diversity in your network canlead to more innovative
solutions and a broader range ofopportunities.
Embrace different backgrounds,experiences and viewpoints can
enrich your own understandingand help you navigate challenges
with a more well-roundedapproach.
So, building that professionalnetwork Thoughts Someone who's
doing this by themselves rightnow.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Stop navel gazing Right.
I need folks.
So I'll give you a personalanalogy to apply professionally.
So now I'm single again.
I'm not ready to start datingagain, but then you know when I
was in New York.
I was in the street.
No, I wasn't, y'all, I reallywasn't.
I was at the soccer field andthe track meets, okay, but I
thought I was going to be in thestreet when I moved here.
So one of the things that Iused to do, I remember when I
(27:01):
was dating before, was peoplewould be out.
I'd be out with my girlfriendsand folks would be on their
phone, not me.
I'm looking up my littlemocktail or cocktail, depending
on the time of day, just lookingaround being nosy Because I was
like, oh, I love to peoplewatch.
So what I want people to do is,professionally, stop looking at
your phone and look up Join thatmeetup for professionals in
(27:25):
your age range or in yourprofession type or in your
complementary profession.
So if you are leading monthlygiving right now, that means you
need a whole lot of people whoare going to decide to put their
credit card and let it rock outuntil it expires, which, if you
are lucky, three years, fouryears, whatever the math is
right.
Just let it rock out and thenswitch to ACH and then switch to
(27:47):
ACH so that it never ends,hallelujah, okay, here's the
thing.
They may not be other nonprofitprofessionals.
Oh likely not?
What are the psychographics ofthe types of folks who are
attracted to your mission, right?
What are the things thatthey're interested in?
Guaranteed, one of those thingsis going to be one of your
hobbies, if you don't go findyourself down.
The other day you said you liketo run.
(28:09):
I'm not running from nothing,dana.
Okay, I'm just wondering, whatare you running from?
Okay, but I did join a slowwalkers club, so there's like
slow runners, walkers, and I waslike so speed walking on the
South side where I live.
And the reason I joined that isbecause I want to meet people
who are fit and who want to beactive but who, like me, are
like why are we running againactive?
(28:30):
But who, like me, are like whyare we running again?
But they know we have to move.
So we're moving and I know I'mgoing to meet other business
owners.
I'm going to meet folks who areretired who's you know, this
person or that person they wereconnected to, and this and that.
And I'm going to meet youngpeople who want to get me
connected here.
I know I'm going to meet peoplewho are going to need the types
of things that I want to do and, if I'm real lucky.
I'm real lucky.
I'm probably going to meet afriend.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
This happens, and everywhere, like sitting at a
bar, correct, I remember I meanused to ride in New York a lot.
I used to live there too on thesubway.
99.9% of people are down ontheir phones and sometimes you'd
be amazed by just like somebodyreading a book.
It's like, oh, I read that booktoo, and then you strike up
this really amazing conversationwhen your eyes are up.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
That's right.
That's right, that's right, andI think that for me and I am I
think I would now say I'm anambivert, but for a long time I
was a true introvert with anextroverted life and personality
.
Because I'm bubbly, peopleexpect me to be an extrovert and
because I was in the world inthe business of people pleasing,
I was doing what I thought wassupposed to happen as opposed to
what I really wanted to happen,and so being intentional in the
(29:33):
season of your life.
If you are a parent, acaregiver, a guardian, for
example, and your entire worldright now is around those kids,
take that baby out of oneactivity coming into the fall or
summer.
Take them out.
You know why.
They don't care.
You care.
Be clear, that's your ego, nottheir interests, and then insert
something for yourself.
Thank me later.
(29:58):
I was a single mom for 14 years.
I might know a thing or twoabout that.
Okay, and so being able to giveyourself the opportunity to be
human and human well in theworld, actually is modeling for
your children, the people you'reguarding for your parent, if
you're taking care of them, thatyou actually come first and by
being selfish in that way, youthen have the space to be of
(30:19):
service without resentment, yes,which will make you more apt to
go out and meet people, becauseyou're not like.
Oh God, people, oh Lord, I gotto get a haircut.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
We want to release the whole thing and then you're
going to find your crew and tobe in community with.
It's the best ever.
So good, it's the best ever,okay.
So, speaking of intentions, youwere so gracious with your time
.
I want everyone to right nowhave the intention to go connect
with you when should they dothat?
Speaker 2 (30:51):
I'm probably the only Kashana you're ever going to
meet, and so I'm Kashana Palmeracross all platforms.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
Hello SEO.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Hello, k-i-s-h-s-h-a-n-a Palmer, I hang
out.
Listen.
If you want to know my fashionand my foolishness, it's on
Instagram.
If you want to know myrelationship, foolishness that's
on TikTok y'all, I'm tryingsomething out.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
I'm writing on Substack now more than ever,
okay.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
And, of course, professionally on LinkedIn.
So stepping into Kashanaverseis just a matter of looking me
up.
Definitely grab the book Ifyou'd like to listen to books.
It's the sound of my voicey'all it is.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
It's like a warm-.
I asked you all the questions.
We were talking about this andI was like how did it go?
How is it?
It's hard, it's hard, it isreally hard.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
One of the best times I've ever had, but also one of
the ones that I wanted to throwthat headphones every time.
But I do not regret being ableto have the opportunity to
record my own audio book.
If you are a visual learner,obviously grab the book, but
also watch some of my shorts andvideos, because I talk about
the thing that I talk about andthe thing that I want folks to
know about the book the most is,you can read one chapter and
(31:54):
put it down, treat it like aready reference for your life
and if there's something thatyou're navigating personally or
professionally or both, theprobability is high that I've
written something that, in 15pages or so, can get you right
and get you on the right track.
And that's because for me, dana, one of my strengths is being
an activator.
I'm the person that's going toget folks off the starting block
(32:16):
and then figuring out how todelegate, leveraging the chapter
that you read as a readyreference to invite others in to
how they help you win in thisseason, so good.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
So good.
Basically, just hit rewind onthe whole episode and listen to
it again.
Kish, you're amazing.
Thank you so much.
Everyone Go check it out.
Busy is a four letter word.
I will link to it in the shownotes.
Kish, thank you.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Love you Mina.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Thank you so much for tuning into today's episode of
Missions to Movements.
If you enjoyed our conversationand found it helpful, I would
love for you to take a moment toleave a review.
Wherever you're listening, yourfeedback helps us reach more
changemakers like you andcontinue bringing impactful
stories and strategies to theshow.
(33:06):
Don't forget to hit thatsubscribe button too, so you'll
never miss an episode, and untilnext time, keep turning your
mission into a movement.
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