Drug Testing And Detection - Exploring The Latest Advancements And Policies - Part 2

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Episode Transcript

(00:01):
From the w A Andem Studio onthe campus of Florida A and M University.
This is Mariform Radio, a weeklyconversation on the education and research or
medical marijuana being conducted back to them. Mus Hi, I'm Heidi Otway,
your host for this Conversations on Cannabisvirtual form, brought to you by the
Medical Marijuana Education and Research Initiative atFlorida and M University. In this conversation,

(00:25):
we're talking about advanced drug testing andhow it could impact people who use
cannabis. So let's talk and learnabout this subject with our guests. Kelly
Dobbins has more than twenty five yearsof experience in the drug testing industry and
conducts individual employment, school, federal, and court ordered drug and alcohol testing,

(00:48):
as well as training and education.She is currently serving as the Board
of Directors Vice President for the Drugand Alcohol Testing Industry Association. Kelly's good
to have you on the show.Thanks good to say it good. Our
other guests is Zathan Bhutan, whois as WHO certified and drug and alcohol

(01:10):
testing that consists of hair, follicle, fingernail and liva testing. He is
a graduate of the Occupational Safety andHealth Academy and is a member of the
National Association of Safety Professionals. Zathanis good to have you on the forum.
Thanks nice to have you. Greatto everyone joining us on this live

(01:32):
program. Please share post antag afriend on Facebook to have them join this
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as well. During the form,we want you to send us your questions
in the comment box, and we'lldo our best to have our guests answer
them. We also want you totell us what you think about this forum

(01:52):
by completing the survey that will beposted in the comments on YouTube and Facebook.
After the live program, your namewill be entered into a drawing on
May eleventh, twenty twenty three towin a one hundred dollars gift card provided
by one of Mary's partners. Now, let's start this conversation on cannabis.

(02:13):
So, what are the new waysto test whether someone has used cannabis or
if they're under the influence. Youmentioned it earlier, something about I think
oral fluids sing you tell me aboutsome other new methodologies that they're using to
test people for cannabis and other drugs. Oral fluids go back, you know
pretty much what are you doing today? Was your guys smoking to join at

(02:34):
lunch on the truck or you know, what was he doing you know,
eight hours ago, and it couldgo up to you know, yesterday.
One of the newer methodologies is througha company called Hound Labs, and it's
a breathalyzer. What's interesting about itis that it captures your breath. It's
not like a breath alcohol machine,but in our world when you think of

(02:58):
breathalyzer, that's what you think at. It does capture the breath and it
goes into a capsule, and currentlythat capsule goes to Quest Diagnostics and they
run an initial and a confirmatory screen, just like you would i you're in
drug test or an oral fluid drugtest, or you know, anything that's
lab based like that. The differenceis it only goes back three hours.

(03:22):
So what you're looking for in thatparticular case is you're looking to see if
someone is actually used while they wereat work, which is going to be
different than if you use two nightsago at a concert. So that's one
of our new hopes for the future. Right now. I wanted to ask
a little bit more about the randomnessprocess. I think when we were doing

(03:45):
our pre conversation getting ready. Youall talked about the random drug test,
right, so you talked about youknow, there's a new breathalyzer that you
can they can find out if youdid it within you said a couple of
hours. Right, So in thoseinstances, that's someone who's probably chosen for
a random Is that correct or thatwould be called a reasour suspicion. Yeah,

(04:12):
the randoms are. It's computer generating. So what happens is actually get
hired by your employer. You're soscared, number your name, and that
thing goes to a computer and onceyou get hired, you get into what
they call a pool. All dependson how larger company is. They can
put you in a pool separately fromall the other people, or if you
have a three to five people,they can put you in another pool with

(04:32):
a lot of other people. So, and what it does that computer generates
numbers and as it pops out,if you're so scared number pops out,
that's you know, that would beyour turn to go take a random Well,
employees think, okay, while they'repicking on me because I've been randomized.
You know, there's I heard aguy said well, he said,
y'all always picking on me because y'allthink I'm smoking drugs like no, And

(04:57):
that's what a lot of people getcan us because they're thinking you're just going
in because of who they are,or they're athnissity too, because you have
some folks who think, you know, I'm I'm a blackmail or I'm Hispanic,
so I'm being picked on. Butwhat I'm hearing is that in most
instances, that's not the case ina random situation. Correct, that's right,
that's correct. Yeah, So youjust oh, yeah, go ahead,

(05:20):
miss Kelly. There's other ways too, when you look at especially like
in drug court, they use colors, like you know, you're assigned to
color when you come in to theprogram, and today you know your color
may be blue and Zathan's color maybe red, and so you call a
phone every day and it says thisis the today's color, and that way

(05:43):
you know you have to go geta drug test. So it's still random,
though it's still generated by a computer, because you could have the color
blue could be every day for threedays if the computer chose it, so
it would still be the same situationand it would still be the same random
generation generator. It's just done alittle differently. Okay, I want to
go back to the reasonable suspicion.Can you talk a little bit more about

(06:06):
that, Safan, Well, thereason of suspicion. Let's just say,
Yeah, I'm an employer at Venueand I come work every day happy and
everything is fine, and then oneday I come to work close this shoveled
I'm not shaving, I'm talking outof my head, my eyes and glossy,

(06:27):
and you know, I have adistinct older marijuana, you know,
purported marijuana and or alcohol emitting formy breath, and you kind of like,
man, he's not he's not himself. Well, of course a lot
of people say, well, ifyou're if you're diabetic and you have high
insult levels, it can smell likealcohol as well. That's true. But

(06:47):
are you're going to take a chanceof saying, oh, he's a diabetic
or you're going to monitor him foryou know, a few a few minutes
an hours, So document all that, you know, get your supervisor,
let them know they're going on amonitor as well, a documentary thing,
and send this person for a randomSo if it is if it sugar levels
elevated, you can still get helpeither way, at least this personally be

(07:09):
well, you know, taking careof Either way, it goes to determine
that they're high under the influence,or if they're diabetic and they're in they're
instantly the real high. So alot of factors go into when you look
in at someone that's you know,for the reason suspicion just depends on you
just can't tell anybody I think they'reonly marijuana, I think they've drunk,
or I think they're high, becauseyou have to the supervisor has to be

(07:33):
trained into reason suspicion. Anybody justcan't say, well, I think he's
high and that's it. Now youhave to give a written statement. You
have to give documentation on the reasoningbehind this person being that you feel like
something's wrong with them. So youjust can't say, I think something's wrong
with you, and that's it's it'sto that, yeah, And I guess

(07:53):
that falls into the HR function.For those who are listening right and they're
in the scenario, it's really talkingto the HR department for their employer.
Well not so much to media supervitoras well, because immediate supervisors conselt.
They see them every day. TheHRS director of whoever may be doesn't come
in contact with them, but theywill contact the HR personnel to say,

(08:15):
hey, look, this is whatwe have, this is what we're doing.
For all this to be documented.HR want to look at you know,
the reason behind it because they aretrained as well. So they're going
to say, okay, well doyou have this this They want all the
documentations. So once all that isdone, they're going to you know,
everything is going to be documented andput in place in their files. So
these are all, you know,all that's gonna be document as well,
say, HR will be contacted inregards to reasonable suspicion or anything else for

(08:41):
that reason. For that reason,Yeah, Kelly, did you want to
add on to that. I wasgonna say, that's that's where HR comes
in as document document document. Imean, they're trained. I know,
Zathan trains people and that's one ofthe biggest things you do with training is
like he said, this is notthis person's behavior, so you have to
most of the forms for reasonable suspicionhave checkboxes. Does he smell funny,

(09:03):
does he look funny? You know, is he disheveled? You know,
is he standing up, is heyelling, is he crying? Is he
whispering? You know, and thosetype of things kind of give them the
documents that they need in order tobe able to make a determination. Are
we going to do a reasonable suspiciontest? It may be that he's got

(09:24):
a brand new baby at home,he hasn't slept in two days. You
don't have any way of knowing.That's where the documentation comes in. So
really, the HR people are theones behind document document document, because that'll
give us whatever we need to beable to go out and ask for that
test. Yeah. Well, I'mgoing to ask a question I don't and
I'm not sure if you all cananswer it. But let's say someone is

(09:45):
in this scenario and they test positiveand their fire from their job because they
fail to join a tests. Dothey have any legal recourse to try to
get their job back and under thosekind of situations from your experience, do
you know? I know? UmZathan Um, I know we talked about

(10:07):
It depends on the state you're in. There are some states that have you
know, made medical or recreational useuh okay, and when that happens,
some of those states say, youcan't just be fired for a drug test.
So and I'll let Zathan go intoa little bit more on that right

(10:31):
now. And like miss Kelly issaying, now, each state have different
rules and regulations, but the onlydifference is that if it's a federal if
you're truck driving, you're safe.Is sensitive All that's out the window.
It's all this is what the rulesall, this is what we have to
do. But if you're not,let's just say you you know, you're
you know, you know, youassistant to your boss and their principal or

(10:56):
the doctor had nothing to say thesensitive so they can say, well,
now this state law said you can'tthis medical marijuana is it's approved, it's
legal in this state. While youfell with marijuana test, you can't just
bother this person because of they fellthe test with marijuana. So that's what
it's kind of the saying. Sofar as how the states and rules are,
it's it's kind of squirreling. Butyou know, when it comes to

(11:20):
federal or your job function, that'swhere the rule is going to apply it.
Right. Rights are thinking a lotof companies are taking a marijuana out
of their policies because of it's beinglegalized everywhere, so you can actually take
it out of your policy and proceduresif you choose to. Now it depends
on the job function of that person. Yeah, that was what I was

(11:43):
about to ask. If you're seeingemployers becoming more lenient for their employees who
use cannabis legally, you know,in the states that allow it. Are
you seeing them being more lenient ifthere's not a safety sensitive position and allowing
them to use it. Are youall seeing that? Yes? I think
the main reason that you're seeing ittoo is because you know, with oral

(12:07):
fluid coming out, you've got abetter determinator of if this person used today
or if they used a week ago. And now with how labs coming out
with their breathalyzer, you know,if we have the tools that we need
as employers, then we're going tocontinue to test. If we don't have
the tools, then we're not goingto test because we don't want to,

(12:28):
you know, infringe on those rights. And as long as you're not driving
an eighteen wheel or a fly ona plane then and you're not you know,
a police officer or a fireman,then it's probably a moot point.
Okay, Well, we are actuallygetting some questions from the folks who are
watching the live program. Let's pullup Lisa Solomon's question. This is a

(12:48):
good one. It says, doesthe breathalyzer only show if there are active
THHC metabolites anyone? I'm pretty surethat's the case. But to get more
information, you should go to theirwebsite. Um, it's Holm Labs.
They're based out of California. Myunderstanding is it's only showing active THHC metabolites,

(13:13):
it's only sean currently. What's inyour system in the last three hours?
Okay, thank you for that response. So what are the top questions
that you all hear from people whohave to take a drug test for marijuana,
cannabis use? What do you hearbut just drug testing as a whole.

(13:35):
I've had some people ask me whatwhat are we looking for? I'm
like, what kind of questions?I'm looking for everything? Or they said,
well, how could I pass it? How can I ask? Yeah?
Or do I have to take ittoday? I could I take it
tomorrow? Or are you doing halffinicles? It's a number of things I've

(13:58):
I've heard. It's like you kindof stop on your tracks, like wait,
a minute, did he chase anaccident? But you don't want to
show any type of you know,you just want to kind of keep us
a stone face. But in yourmind is like, wow, you know
something's going on, okay. Sothat raises suspicions when you get questions that
says, how do I pass it? Well? People call on the phone

(14:22):
and ask you that. They'll callon the phone and say I got to
take a drug test. How topass it well? The most common answers
don't use drugs, but it's usuallytoo late if they're calling to ask you
how. There's a lot of stuffon the market, and a lot of
that stuff works if you know howto use it. But we're trying to
try to thwart all those ways.So we're all highly trained collectors, and

(14:46):
you know the temperature and the wayit looks and smells, not that you
necessarily sniff it, but you dohave to know that if it smells like
bleach, it probably has bleach init. You know, those type of
things. Same thing with hair,like he was saying that come in with
dreads or they come in with youknow, their hair, you know,
with extensions. There's all kinds ofways people try to they come in with

(15:09):
a hairpiece. If you're not diggingunder their hair trying to cut from the
crown of the hair underneath all theirhair, you wouldn't know they had a
hairpiece. Song. So the peopletry to thwart the tests in a lot
of different ways. Well, that'sfascinating. So is there anything else that
you want to share with our viewersand listeners when it comes to drug testing.

(15:30):
I think you all have thoroughly coveredit, you know, from what
the drug testing process is, howpeople try to cheat the system, why
employers asked for it, and thenalso touching in on the you know those
safety sensitive jobs where you can't useit at all and if you get caught
probably get you lose your job.So is there anything else that you'd like

(15:52):
to add for our listeners and viewerswhen it comes to drug testing for cannabis
or any other kind of drug thatcould impair them. When you go to
do avoid the urine is not blue. Just no, you can't. You
can't have blue urine and you andyour body is nanny eight point six degrees

(16:17):
yourself. It's not registering, it'snot you so and it's not if it's
over a hundred degrees, you're bawlingand your brain as ball as you need
to get to the hospital. Sothose things there, and I'm saying that's
why I miss Kelly laugh because you'veseen blue. You know, green is
like, oh, I'm sick,I have an affection way, I think
you're dead. But because it's blue, Thank goodness, Kelly. At a

(16:42):
lot of the things that we seeare humorous. Zathan and I both have
talked about writing a book, butit would be you know, it's like
when do you stop the chapters?Because you know, every time they come
up with a different way to test, there's going to be a different way
to thwart the test. They're alreadytalking about with the oral fluid, when
you stick the swabs in their mouth, having some type of device that has

(17:03):
dog spit or someone else's spit init, so that you know you can
award the test that way. Soevery time there's a new way to test,
there's going to be another way toward. So our book would just get
bigger and bigger, or we'd havemultiple, you know, multiple volumes.
Wow. So with that, anyclosing comments, I mean, this is

(17:23):
completely fascinating. The Blue Year andpeace, Um and the morning of the
year. And I'm probably going tochuckle pretty heavily when I get off the
show. But any closing thoughts forfolks that you'd like to share with them,
just for their understanding and education onthis topic, He's Kelly. I

(17:44):
think. I think being in drugtesting at this juncture is interesting with all
the cannabis laws and rules, andwhen we look at drug testing as an
industry, we've always been about safety. We've always been about making sure that
people stay safe. It's never beenabout trying to get you. It's never

(18:04):
been about impairment. And the reasonimpairment has started to come into the conversation
is because we don't have a goodway to test marijuana. You know,
marijuana has always been illegal, sothere was never a reason to develop a
test, So that whole impairment thingis never really applied to drug testing.
It's always been about deterrence. It'salways been about we want to keep you

(18:27):
safe, you know, so wewant to make sure. That's why you're
randomly drug testing. That's the bestway to know if your people are safe
is to make sure you're randomly testingthem so they never know when you're going
to test them, then they won'tuse the same thing with your kids in
high school. A lot of thehigh schools got to drug testing because they
knew if the children had an opportunityto say no, a lot of them

(18:48):
would they say, no, Ican't do that because I'll get kicked off
the football team, or no,I can't do that, I'll get kicked
out of band. Oh it's thesame thing with employees. So drug testing
in and of its elf has neverbeen about impairment. It's just looking at
the whole marijuana conversation is really it'sgoing to be interesting. We're gonna have
a lot of a lot more thingsto talk about next time you call us

(19:11):
up. I'm sure. Well,let me ask you, this is your
industry booming because more and more safesor legalizing it. Well from the testing,
from the testing end, I don'tknow if that's true or not,
because there's people that are dropping marijuana, but from the drug usage end,

(19:32):
COVID a lot of people started usingdrugs and drinking more during COVID, so
we're still booming from that. Justthe increase of people trying to do something.
Besides, I mean, everybody satat home for two and a half
three years. What do you dowhen you're home, Well, everybody in
the neighborhood was sitting out in thedriveway drinking beer with their neighbors. So

(19:52):
people that don't normally drink on adaily basis, we're drinking on a daily
basis. Then you've got, youknow, the opioid crisis, which now
has turned into the feedinal crisis,which you know, that's an ongoing thing.
So I just think it's it hasto do with the influx of drugs
and alcohol through the COVID era.As far as marijuana, I know that

(20:15):
we're starting to see some employers dropmarijuana, but they're not dropping drug testing
because drug testing is up. Youknow, positive drug tests are up,
so they're not dropping it. It'sjust changing. And I think that's where
the conversation comes in as we're lookingat how this is changing, how the
testing method changes, how marijuana isgoing to change the whole face of drug

(20:37):
testing. But the safety sensitive andthe deterrence part will never leave. You
do not want an eighteen wheel ora guide, you know, running a
truck or driving an airplane that's inebriated. Either he's high marijuana or he's drunk.
It's the same. That is thesame conversation. Yeah, safe in
any closing thoughts. Yeah, Actuallywe talked about all the rules and things

(21:02):
like that a drug testing, druguse. The one thing that didn't talk
about it's calicatory from wrong. Asas an employer, if you do have
a drug or alcohol problem, ifyou go to your employer before a drug
test and tell them that you havea problem, they cannot fire you.
To have to get you to sometype of rehab. Well not so get

(21:22):
you, but they have to giveyou the information to go to a rehab
or de type facility to get yousome help. So that's one thing a
lot of people don't know and don'tunderstand that if you go before you get
selected and say hey, look Igot a problem, now they have I
forgot that law that rule is,but they have it too. Where you
act that the employer has to giveyou, try to give all give you

(21:47):
all information they can on rehab soyou can get you some help and they
can't fire you. That's always that. The other twist of that, a
lot of places call it last chance, and sometimes they'll get you last chance
after you fail a drug test ifyou tell them even if you go to
them beforehand, then you're not goingto have that failed drug test. So
if they had to fire you,they wouldn't fire you. But if you

(22:11):
do fail the drug test, there'sother companies that'll still have a last chance
policy because they don't want to see, you know, an employee that they've
had for ten years have a youknow, stupid incident and then they lose
that ten years worth of value,you know, by not having that employee
anymore. And they could give themlast chance where they can go get help
and they can and during that timewhen they're getting rehabbed and all that,

(22:36):
of course, there would be drugtests and alcohol test whatever's appropriate at a
more elevated rate. So if youwere getting maybe drug tests randomly and you're
only getting pulled because of the luckof the draw once a year, you
might be pulled. In a lastchance agreement, it's not even a random
thing. They tell you we're goingto drug test you every week or every

(22:57):
month or every two months, andwe're going to do this for set number
of years to make sure you're incomplans. Wow, that's good. Well,
we just got a comment from KatrinaRivers who said EAP Employee Assistance Program
US. Thank you, thank youfor watching. Michelle, Thanks Katrina,

(23:18):
all right, well, Kelly andZathan, thank you so much for being
a guest on our Conversations on CannabisVirtual form brought to you by the Medical
Marijuana Education and Research Initiative at Floridaand M University. Thank you to everyone
watching this program. Tell us whatyou think about this form by completing the
survey that will be posted in thecomment boxes on YouTube and Facebook after this

(23:41):
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to go to the Florida Department ofHealth Office of Medical Marijuana Use website to
learn how to obtain a lead egoliticalmarijuana card in the state of Florida.

(24:03):
We also encourage you to go tothe Florida and M University Married website to
learn more about this initiative, it'seducational programs and additional information about cannabis use
and Florida. Good Bye everyone,and thank you. The views and opinions
of Our invited guests are not necessarilythe views and opinions of Florida Agricultural and

(24:26):
Mechanical University or the Medical Marijuana Educationand Research Initiative