Drug Testing And Detection - Exploring The Latest Advancements And Policies - Part 1

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Episode Transcript

(00:01):
From the w A Andem Studio onthe campus of Florida A and M University.
This is Mariform Radio, a weeklyconversation on the education and research or
medical marijuana being conducted back to them. Mus Hi, I'm Heidi Otway,
your host for this Conversations on Cannabisvirtual form, brought to you by the
Medical Marijuana Education and Research Initiative atFlorida and M University. In this conversation,

(00:25):
we're talking about advanced drug testing andhow it could impact people who use
cannabis. So let's talk and learnabout this subject with our guests. Kelly
Dobbins has more than twenty five yearsof experience in the drug testing industry and
conducts individual employment, school, federal, and court ordered drug and alcohol testing,

(00:48):
as well as training and education.She is currently serving as the Board
of Directors Vice President for the Drugand Alcohol Testing Industry Association. Kelly's good
to have you on the show.Thanks good to say it good. Our
other guests is Zathan Bhutan, whois as WHO certified and drug and alcohol

(01:10):
testing that consists of hair, follicle, fingernail and liva testing. He is
a graduate of the Occupational Safety andHealth Academy and is a member of the
National Association of Safety Professionals. Zathanis good to have you on the forum.
Thanks nice to have you. Greatto everyone joining us on this live

(01:32):
program. Please share post antag afriend on Facebook to have them join this
conversation. If you're on YouTube,share the links so others can join us
as well. During the form,we want you to send us your questions
in the comment box and we'll doour best to have our guests answer them.
We also want you to tell uswhat you think about this forum by

(01:52):
completing the survey that will be postedin the comments on YouTube and Facebook.
After the live program, your namewill be entered into a drawing on May
eleventh, twenty twenty three to wina one hundred dollars gift card provided by
one of Mary's partners. Now,let's start this conversation on cannabis. Kelly,

(02:13):
I'm going to start with you,what are the most common types of
drug testing? We have urine,hair, and saliva, which is also
considered oral fluid. Urine. It'sprobably the oldest method, goes back when
you're testing marijuana, goes back tosix weeks hair. A typical hair test

(02:34):
half inch of hair is thirty days. So typical hair test is an inch
and a half a hair so you'vegot a ninety day window. And oral
fluid is one of the newer methodologiesand it goes back a day, possibly
two if you're a heavy user.All right, Zathan, did you want
to add anything to that or didKelly cover it all? Yeah? I

(02:55):
think she's covered everything. Great,Well, Nathan, let me ask you
a question and when and why aredrug tests usually conducted? Well, for
work wise, it's a preemployment incidence, accidents, injuries, and what they
call random, So it just variesand depends on your job and you're responsibly

(03:19):
always at your company that you're goingto get drug tested. Kelly your experience.
What are other reasons if any,that folks would you conduct a drug
test on someone? Usually, um, you know, you've got some court
order cases, you've got probation,you've got divorce cases where they're looking at
child custody. That that comes upa lot in our area. But as

(03:40):
far as workplace, you know,he mentioned all of pre employment, post
to accident, reasonable suspicion, andrandom. So who typically requests these drug
tests of individuals? Who you know, what entity is doing? That it's
normally it's going to be the employer. If it's court, it's normally going

(04:01):
to be a lawyer that's gone infront of a judge and so the judge
is requesting it. Probation is thesame way it would be court ordered.
So the judge would have said youhave to get drug testing, and then
the probation officer would be the onesending, you know, the person to
get the test. Saything, didyou want to add to that? That's
that's what I'm saying that with probation, it's a little bit you know,

(04:21):
with laws, is a little bitdifferent when it comes to judge orders and
court ours because it's not as it'sno rules to what they do. It
just come in and say, hey, here you are, do what you
have to do and we'll take itwith you. So it's no, it's
not so much being certifying. Thingis just a court order that you have
to follow. Employer wise, it'suh, you have to you know,

(04:42):
meet certain amerrification before you can docertain drug tests. Okay, it was
there a process in all of this. You know, we're drug testing.
So the employer or an individual oran organization says this person needs to take
a drug test. What happens afterthat, Kelly, you want to tell
me about that? Sure, Normallywhat we're going to require is some type
of an authorization, So the personthe employer would sign off on authorization saying

(05:06):
I'm sending Johnny Smith for a preemployment drug test. We're supposed to show
up on the day whatever day thatis between this time and this time.
And so when Johnny shows up nextweek with an authorization, then we're going
to call that employer and say,you still want us to drug test it.
He's a late. You know,he's a week late. You still

(05:29):
want us to drug test it.So the authorization is very important and really
the same thing. I'll let himspeak on probation, but really the same
thing with any other type of order. If they're supposed to be here today
or tomorrow and they show up nextweek, then we know there's probably something
wrong. Tell us more. Ifeel, like miss Kelly said, you

(05:50):
know, that's normally that the procedureof how it goes. And if I'm
not mistaken, miss Kelly, day, you know, I cycle a week
late. Will that becomes sider stilldepends on the employer of what they're being
tested. For right. In lawenforcement a little bit different when you come
of probation and things like that.If a judge that orders it and you
don't show up or you duck inyour what they call your PO, which

(06:12):
is probation officer, at that moment, it's up to him and say,
well, you know what, I'vechanged it for a week now instead of
we doing this drug test, Ican just bring you with me. So
it's a big difference with you,but it's all the same after a week,
like miss Kelly was saying, youpretty much trying to clean your system
up. You're trying to flush thatsystem to get it to the normal or

(06:34):
the zero tolerance of any type ofhabituous as inside your system. Okay,
well that's a perfect segue into thisburning question that I had. How do
people cheat when they take a drugtest? I don't you know best way
to cheat? How do they cheat? Just curious they're bringing someone else as

(07:00):
urine in Now we all have asaying and around these parts anyway, as
you never use a microwave at agas station because someone's heated up their urine
in it to bring it into thefacility. And Sathan can tell you that
you can have really cold ear andyou have really hot ear and stuff.
You come in and you have reallyhot eurin. We're gonna make you.
We're gonna make you wait a fewminutes. It may take us a few

(07:23):
minutes to get a picture of here. Take your driver's license or fill out
some forms because we want to makesure that Yarin closed down before we take
you back. Okay, am Ihearing you correctly? You said people will
take it to a gas station andput it in the microwave near the slurpies
and the cost scene, heat itup, and then come to you to

(07:45):
take a drug test. Well,fortunately we have a gas station right beside
us, so it's very common here. We've even had some of the employees
call us and let us know thatone of our customers was on our way
on their way over to see us. It's humorous at times and has a
bunch of story. I'm sorry,that's just gross. Can you ask to

(08:07):
that please? Well, like shewas saying, you know, if when
they come in it's too hot,they get the answer pants and I have
to go right now. I needto go right now. So at that
moment, now you have to justsit the there so okay, well sit
right here and wait. They don'twant to sit down because the plastic goes
against their skin. That's burning them. So if they don't want to sit
down, they consulate moving and yousay, look, I need you to

(08:28):
sit down. You're making me nervous, just you know, I need you
to relax for me, you know, And they can't relax that this whole
time they're getting third degree burns ontheir legs or where they have it at.
You sit them there and you andyou jump around all you ask me,
you want something to drink, youneed something, you need some water.
So now you know at some pointthey're going to either get up and
leave, they're gonna take it off. It's gonna it's gonna spill on them,

(08:48):
or something's going to happen to whereyou say, okay, here we
are. So it's it's just oneof those deals that if you're in a
rush to go, it's a problemnine times out of ten, right,
okay. Anything any other methodologies orways that folks try to cheat on their
drug tests, or that that whatyou shared is well and bringing a prosthetic

(09:13):
or it's all types of ways thatpeople try or they try to put things
on their fingernails. They've tried to. It's a lot of different ways that
they can try to cheat it,cheat the system. But at the end
of the day, because you hearall kinds of things that oh, would
use this or do this, trythat, or when you do a half
fock, or they're come in withextensions or things like that and thinking Okay,

(09:35):
they're going to cut the extension andnot realize I'm got to make you
take it out. So it's alot of things that people, you know,
cheat on. I've I've told aguy, you know, congratulations pregnant,
and your wife urine and I want, you know, use animal urine.
So it's it's it's just different wayspeople try it everything well, but

(10:01):
I guess the lesson here is thatyou're probably going to get caught. Yes,
yes, probably going to get caught. So are there federal restrictions or
laws regarding drug testing for people?Yes, there are, And that's where
that's where the big difference lies atbecause now with marijuana have been legal in

(10:24):
certain states and certain counties, thisis where a lot of people said,
well it's legal, I can haveit. Well, yes, it is
legal in certain places. But whenit comes to federals, not legal at
all. So that's where that thinline comes in because federal guidelines is totally

(10:45):
different from state of local guidelines.So when you're dealing with federal or marine
or whether it may be, itjust depends on the laws and the rules
of what interview dealing with is goingto come down to the laws that there
are. So far as federal laws, it's totally different state laws state laws.
In Florida, it may be legalin Louisiana. Marijuana is not legal

(11:07):
right each state. It's different inCalifornia and Colorado's legal. But the thing
that they understands, you're transporting allthese things. Now you committing federal crimes
state crimes. So that's where thedrug testing side coming at too, where
it all depends on where you are, the state that you're in. How

(11:28):
are we going to perceive what you'redrug and alcohol testing? So how would
someone and Kelly maybe you can answerthis, how would someone who is using
medical cannabis legally or they're in astate where recreational use is legal, how
would they find out what the rulesare in case they have to get drug
tested? Well, currently there's thirtyeight states plus DC that have some type

(11:52):
of legalized marijuana. You've got twentythree plus DC at our recreational and sixteen
that are medicals. That's a largenumber. We know Tennessee where I am,
as the last holdout, so we'llprobably never get either one of those.
But we're surrounded by states that haveall the states around us, you

(12:16):
know, So it's the same thingsSathan was saying. You know, you're
crossing lines. The main difference islike in Tennessee, you can only have
some type of cannabis l that's pointo three contains point o three THHC or
less. If you're going to theI'm going to use the gas station.
Again, it's not that I'm beatingup on gas stations. It just happens

(12:37):
to be what's next door to myoffice. So if you go to the
gas station you buy one of thosevape pins or gummies, you really don't
know what's in it. You know, they're they're not sent off for purity
and they're not FDA approved, andso you don't know if you're getting THHC
or if you're getting CBD or CBGor whatever it is. That's one of

(12:58):
the drawbacks so the federal government whenwhen we talk about that, we're talking
about Department of Transportation, talking aboutyour truck drivers and your pilots and your
boat captains. Those people they're they'retold don't use that, don't use those
products, even if it's okay inyour state, because you don't know what
you're getting. And if you takea drug test for your job and you

(13:22):
don't pass it, we don't careif it's legal in your state, because
it's still illegal at the federal level. So that's a good segue into a
question I had about what industries forbidtheir employees from using cannabis, any form
of cannabis, whether it's low TCCDDor you know, full on recreational.

(13:43):
What industries Sathan, you want totalk about that, Well, you have
got more to carry your road marine, So all these things, anything that's
been safely sensitive that you can't havemedical or not, anything that you're doing
so forth, I guess they causesafety sensitive. That means operating a far

(14:09):
left, operating heavy machinery, travingeighteen well, or following a ship or
boat or tuck or whatever it maybe, airplane. So all depends on
anything that you're doing safety sensitive wise, a firing warm if you know,
law enforcement, fire department, Soit sets a broad, broad spectrum.

(14:33):
If you're you know, in safety, if you're going into a chemical plan
and you're the safety you know personneland you're going to be dealing with different
chemicals, or you're doing the artistsand things like that, you still can't
be under the influence of now wantof any drug of that. So it

(14:54):
just depends on your job and whatyou're doing at that moment. Yes,
Kelly, did you want to addto that? Yeah, I think Zathan
covered it. I mean, there'sso many different categories. The main difference
is it could be legal in yourstate. But even if you're a fireperson
or a fireman or firewoman in yourstate and you're driving you know, the

(15:16):
firetruck and you're working in that safetysensitive position, which all the positions at
the firehouse are safety sensitive, thenyou can't use marijuana even if it's legal,
because it affects your ability to doyour job. That's where some of
the methodologies come in as to youknow, you know, where are we

(15:37):
on testing, how do we knowif you're under the influence. Well,
that's a good point. So whatare the new ways to test whether someone
has used cannabis or if they're underthe influence. You mentioned it earlier,
something about I think oral fluid sing. You tell me about some other new
methodologies that they're using to test peoplefor cannabis and other drugs or wids.

(16:00):
Go back, you know pretty much, what are you doing today? Was
your guys smoking a joint at lunchon the truck or you know, what
was he doing, you know,eight hours ago, and it could go
up to you know, yesterday.One of the newer methodologies is through a
company called Hound Labs, and it'sa breathalyzer. What's interesting about it is

(16:22):
that it captures your breath. It'snot like a breath alcohol machine, but
in our world when you think ofbreathalyzer, that's what you think at.
It does capture the breath and itgoes into a capsule, and currently that
capsule goes to Quest Diagnostics and theyrun an initial and a confirmatory screen,
just like you would do you're indrug test or an oral fluid drug test,

(16:45):
or you know, eat anything that'slab based like that. The difference
is it only goes back three hours, so what you're looking for in that
particular case is you're looking to seeif someone is at actually used while they
were at work, which is goingto be different than if you use two

(17:06):
nights ago at a concert. Youknow, if you're if you can use
marijuana recreational in your state, andyou go to a concert and you smoke
marijuana, just like if you wereto you know, drink a couple of
glasses of wine. As long asit doesn't impair your ability to do your
job, it shouldn't matter. Butthere's no way, there's no way to

(17:26):
test that impairment. So Hound Labshas probably got the newest methodology out there
as far as trying to capture thatbreath and only going back three hours.
So that's one of our new hopesfor the future right now. Okay,
and then I wanted to ask alittle bit more about the randomness process.

(17:47):
I think when we were doing ourpre conversation getting ready, you all talked
about the random drug test, right, So you talked about, you know,
there's a new breath of liser thatyou can they can find out if
you did it within you said acouple of hours, right, So in
those instances, that's someone who's probablychosen for a random isn't it correct?

(18:10):
Or that would be called the resourcesuspicion. Yeah, the randoms are.
It's computer generating. So what happensis actually get hired by your employer.
You're so scared, number your name, and that thing goes to a computer
and once you get hired, youget into what they call a pool.
All depends on how larger company is. They can put you in a pool

(18:30):
separately from all the other people,or if you have a three to five
people, they can put you inanother pool with a lot of other people.
So, and what it does thatcomputer generates numbers and as it pops
out, if you're so scared numberpops out, that's you know, that
would be your turn to go takea random. A lot of times employers

(18:51):
employees think, okay, why they'repicking on me because I've been randomized?
You know. There's I heard aguy said, well, why am I
alway random lies? Because I'm like, wait, I said even the word
I said, but okay, let'sgo with that. He said, y'all
always picking on me because y'all thinkI'm smoking drugs? Like no, I
said, it's computer generated. Andafter I explain to me, it's like,

(19:12):
well, why my name keep poppingup? Say, buddy, I
can't tell you. The computer isa lot smart than I am, so
I can't help you with that.But I said, my name has popped
up five or six times, soI said, I don't care either way.
But and that's what a lot ofpeople get confused, because they're thinking
you're just going in pulling your namebecause of who they are, or they're

(19:33):
ethnicity too, because you have somefolks who think, you know, I'm
I'm a black mail or I'm Hispanic, so I'm being picked on. But
what I'm hearing is that in mostinstances that's not the case in a random
situation. Correct, That's right,that's correct. Yeah, So you just
oh yeah, go ahead, missKelly. There's other ways too, when
you look at especially like in drugcourt, they use colors, like you

(19:57):
know you're assigned to color or whenyou come in to the program and today
you know your color may be blueand Sathan's color may be red, and
so you call a phone every dayand it says this is the today's color,
and that way you know you haveto go get a drug test.
So it's still random though it's stillgenerated by a computer, because you could

(20:18):
have the color blue could be everyday for three days if the computer chose
it so, it would still bethe same situation, and it would still
be the same random generator. It'sjust done a little differently. Okay,
I want to go back to thereasonable suspicion. Can you talk a little
bit more about that, Sathan,Well, the reasons suspicion. Let's just

(20:38):
say, Yeah, I'm an employeethan you, and I come work every
day happy and everything is fine,and then one day I come to work
close a shoveled I'm not shaving,I'm talking out in my head, my
eyes and glossy, and you know, I have a distinct old of marijuana,

(21:00):
you know, purported marijuana and oralcohol emitting for my breath, and
you kind of like reading man ithe's not he's not himself. Well,
of course, a lot of peoplesay, well, if you're if you're
diabetic and you have high insulant levels, it can smell like alcohol as well.
That's true. But are you're goingto take a chance of saying,
oh, he's a diabetic or you'regoing to monitor him for you know,

(21:22):
a few a few minutes one hours, So document all that you know,
get your supervisor, let them knowthey're going to monitor as well, a
document everything and send this person fora random So if it is if his
sugar levels elevated, you can stillget help either way, at least this
personally be well, you know,taking care of. Either way, it
goes to determine that they're high undertheir influence or if they're diabetic in their

(21:45):
in their instant levels or high.So a lot of factors go into when
you look in at someone that's youknow, for a reason, suspicion just
depends on you just can't tell anybodyI think they're only marijuana, I think
they're drunk, or I think they'rehigh, because you have to the supervisor
has to be trained into reason suspicions. Anybody just can't say, well,

(22:06):
I think he's high and that's it. Now you have to give a redten
statement. You have to give documentationon the reasoning behind this person being that
you feel like something's wrong with them. So you just can't say I think
something's wrong with you, and that'sit's it's to that, yeah, And
I guess that falls into the HRfunction for those who are listening right,

(22:26):
and they're in the scenario, it'sreally talking to their HR department for their
employer. Well not so MLAR toit'smedia supervisor as well, because immediate supervisors
counselate, they see them every day. The HRS director whoever may be,
doesn't come in contact with them,but they will contact the HR personnel to
say, hey, look, thisis what we have, this is what

(22:47):
we're doing. For all this couldbe documented HR. I want to look
at you know, the reason behindit. Because they are trained as well,
so they're going to say, okay, well do you have this this
They want all the documentations. Soonce all that is done, they're going
to you know, everything is goingto be documented and put in place in
their files. So these are all, you know, all that's going to
be documented as well. So HRwill be contacted in regards to reasonable suspicion

(23:08):
or anything. Yes, for thatreason. All right, Well, Kelly
and Zathan, thank you so muchfor being a guest on our Conversations on
Cannabis Virtual Form, brought to youby the Medical Marijuana Education and Research Initiative
at Florida and M University. Thankyou to everyone watching this program. Tell
us what you think about this formby completing the survey that will be posted

(23:30):
in the comment boxes on YouTube andFacebook after this live program. If you
complete the survey, your name willbe entered into a drawing on May eleventh,
twenty twenty three, to win aone hundred dollars gift card provided by
one of Mary's partners. We wantto encourage you to go to the Florida
Department of Health Office of Medical MarijuanaUsed website to learn how to obtain a

(23:52):
legal medical marijuana card in the stateof Florida. We also encourage you to
go to the Florida and m UniversityMerrie website to learn more about this initiative,
it's educational programs and additional information aboutcannabis use and Florida. Good by
everyone, and thank you. Theviews and opinions of our invited guests are

(24:15):
not necessarily the views and opinions ofFlorida Agricultural and Mechanical University or the Medical
Marijuana Education and Research Initiative.