Is It Safe To Use Medical Cannabis To Treat Autism - Part 2

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
From the WA and M Studio onthe campus of Florida A and M University.
This is Mary Forum Radio, aweekly conversation on the education and research
of the medical marijuana being conducted atBAMUI. Hi. I'm Heidi Otway,
your host for this Conversations on Cannabisvirtual form, brought to you by the
Medical Marijuana Education and Research Initiative atFlorida and M University. In this conversation,

(00:25):
we're talking about medical cannabis as atreatment for autism. So let's talk
and learn about this subject with ourguests. Doctor David Berger is a Board
certified pediatrician with more than two decadesof experience. He founded Holistic Pediatrics and
Family Care, one of the fewmedical practices in Florida that certifies children to

(00:48):
use medical cannabis. Doctor David hasgained a national reputation for his expertise in
holistic pediatric primary care with specialties innutritional and lifestyle therapy for autism, ADHD
and related disorders. Doctor David isgood to have you back on the Forum.
It's so good to be back.It's good, good to see you.

(01:10):
Good to everyone joining us on thislive program. Please share a post
and tag a friend on Facebook tohave them join this conversation. If you're
on YouTube, share the links soothers can join us as well. During
the forum, we want you tosend us your questions in the comment box
and we'll do our best to haveour guests to answer them. We also

(01:32):
want you to tell us what youthink about this forum by completing the survey
that we posted in the comments onYouTube and Facebook. After the live program,
your name will be entered into adrawing on May seventh, twenty twenty
four to win a one hundred dollarsgift card provided by one of Mary's partners.
Now, let's start this conversation oncannabis. You touched on the part

(01:55):
about the schools. I just findthat so fascinating that you know, there's
laws that say the schools have toallow it, and they're you know,
different restrictions just to ensure that thechild is getting the cannabis and no one
else. Can you talk a littlebit about that, just to educate some
of our parents that may be listeningon what that process could potentially be.

(02:17):
Yeah, and part of the issueis that the only person who can administer
cannabis to a child is a caregiverwho has a card. Okay, so
that makes it you know, obviouslya nurse can't go out and get thirty
seven cards, you know, foreach patient, and you know, and
you're only allowed to have two caregivers, right, So that's so part of
the law just kind of prohibits that. Okay. Now, prior to COVID,

(02:40):
so that would have been like thatthat fall of ninety into the winter
of twenty nineteen, there was actuallya mandate for schools, to all school
systems to submit a plan that wouldallow for it to be done. But
then when the pandemic hit and obviouslyeverything else shut down and fully understand why

(03:04):
departments of education and departments of healthwould be like, hey, we kind
of have some bigger, bigger thingswe got to take care of right now,
and so it kind of went bythe wayside and unfortunately never resumed,
so we never got the completion onit. That's so interesting. So what's
the latest research on cannabis as atreatment for autism? Yeah, so at

(03:25):
the end of twenty twenty three,this was at a study out of Brazil
in Frontiers in Psychiatry. It wasreally fascinating, So it wasn't a double
blinded, placebo controlled study, whichof course those are the best, and
it had twenty subjects in it,and of course you'd like to see a
larger study. But what they didis and what I really appreciate is they
did in this study and it's theonly time I've ever seen this in a

(03:46):
research study. What we do here, they started the patient upon CBD,
gradually worked up until the caregiver feltthat the maximum benefit was there. The
caregiver was then allowed to then bringin THC individually and working that up,
and then they would land on aratio. Some would be like a ratio
of one THC to forty nine CBDs. Others could be one THC to three

(04:11):
and so, but whatever it wasthat they determined was the best. They
then kept them there for three months, and then they did follow up questionnaires
after the three months, and theyfound that ninety percent, so eighteen of
the twenty individuals show actually ninety fivepercent showed significant improvements in one of the
areas. Ninety percent said that therewas an overall benefit. So a couple

(04:33):
of one of them, even thoughthere was a great benefit, there was
some side effects that they made himsay the overall it was a negative.
But another thing is like around eightypercent of the caregivers said their life the
caregiver's life was better because kind ofas we talked about before. So do
you think that more studies need tobe done because you reference that this wasn't

(04:55):
it was done and where not inyearsil in Brazil? Right, So what
your perspectives on, you know,seeing more research done in the US as
cannabis use says becoming more legalized instates across the country, it's really gonna
come down to if slash when theFDA changes the scheduling of cannabis, because

(05:16):
right now, because it's considered thehighest level of the schedule, they're they're
equating it to LSD and to cocaine, which you know, that's the category
that's falling in And I mean anybodywho has anything whatsoever can open up a
textbook realize and part of that ofthat level of scheduling says does not have
any medical benefit, which, ofcourse, as we just presented, that's

(05:40):
not the case, and there's lotsof other studies about there. The issue
that we're having in America is thatpart of that being a controlled substance with
no benefit. People aren't allowed tojust research it the way that they could
riddle in or the things like that. So we're not gonna probably see much
budgeting on that until you know,you know, it is hopeful that President

(06:00):
Biden will will formally announce it,then the FDA will go ahead and change
the scheduling. And I think thatthere's a relatively good chance that that will
happen before the election. It's goodpolitics, you know, but but you
know so so I think once thathappens, I think that that will be
a game changer. M Earlier inthe show, when I was doing the
introduction, I reference that you're oneof the few physicians in Florida that actually

(06:27):
do what you do, which is, you know, treat young kids with
cannabis when they have autism. Howmany others across the state are in this
level have this level expertise in you? In terms of people who are actual
pediatricians that are practicing pediatricians, Idon't know that there's any there are filming
medicine doctors and other because you canbe an internal medicine doct you could be

(06:50):
a radiologist and get the certification andtreat kids. So you know as a
pediatrician who's actually doing this, andyou know as a person who you know
as a holistic functional medicine doctor.I've been using herbs and kids for twenty
five years, not this orb obviously, you know what. Yes, But
the thing is is, so youknow, all of this time I had

(07:11):
to figure out how to come upwith dosing regimens on an individualized basis for
them. So when cannabis came around, when obviously most doctors, whether they
weren't agreeing, freaking out, orhad no knowledge, I knew very well
how to do titration of natural supplementsin order to get to be able to
help a family figure out what theright thing was. So I think I

(07:32):
always had a really big headstart oneverybody. Yeah, what kind of questions
do you get from parents who areconsidering this kind of treatment for their children?
Yeah? Well most So there's twoparts. So in my main practice,
are just wanting to learn more tosee if they should in the first
place, you know. So Iactually have two practices, Holistic pediatrics and
family care, which is my mainclinic. Holistic Relief is dedicated just to

(07:54):
the certifying of cannabis patients. Soonce a patient has already made an appointment,
they kind of already know they wantto start using cannabinoids. But one
of the things after because a lotof people don't realize and not just CBD,
but I use a lot of CBGGeorge G in my practice, which
is really good for anxiety, andI use a lot of CBN in my

(08:15):
practice, which is wonderful for sleep, and of course CBD as well.
So I would say about ten tofifteen percent of the patients who come in
to get certified, once they learnand I show them how to use the
dosings for the other they actually say, hey, you know what, I
want to use the HEMP rived cannabinoids, and let's hold off on actually putting
in for the card and doing that, and I'll get back to you if
I need the card. So Iput all the documentation down so if they

(08:37):
want to turn it on, wecan do that. But you know,
really depends on the individual. Buta lot of parents were actually, hey,
no, I'd be justifying not puttingmy kid on THAC if we can
accomplish other things. So as arule of thought, for me, it's
just like I would never tell aparent to start their kid on THC.
I'd start on the hemp drive cannabinoidsfirst, right, right, Well,
we're starting to get some questions fromour live audience here, and we have

(09:00):
have a question from Elias wanting toknow what are the main effects of the
drops? What is the main THHClevel of drops? How long does the
effect last? Okay, so letme ask the third one part first,
So the effects typically last four ishhour, six is hours. It's it
is variable. Different people have differentmetabolism, just like with other medications.

(09:24):
In terms of the drops, Sowhen you swallow something, so I would
say that this is true for ediblesor capsules, anything that gets swallowed,
once it's going down into the stomachthen has to be absorbed in the intestines.
That's why it typically takes longer tokick in. So on average it
also takes about an hour to kickin. Okay, And of course depending

(09:48):
on now the drops, you're gonnasee different milligrams per drop or milligrams per
millileter on there. So you haveto be really careful what you're doing,
even if you're changing from one productto the other, because you can't just
assume one drop is one drop.One drop could have one milligram. One
drop could have two or three milligramsof THC in it, So you have
to know what you're doing. Ineffect, I tell people, don't think

(10:09):
in terms of drops. Think interms of milligrams to figure out what you
need to do. Okay, Sobut in terms of that, so I
mean, I have some kids whocan get away with two or three milligrams
and that's all they need. Ihave other people who needing twenty five monograms.
You know. One of the interestingthings that I have observed though,
with kids with autism, even thosewho are taking the high doses, and

(10:30):
even on some who aren't taking CBDwith it, a lot of them they
do not act high. I thinkit's because of that what we're talking about
before, that there's this deficiency.And so I'm thinking that in people with
autism a good percentage of them,it's kind of getting them to normal as
opposed to one a person who hasnormal endocannabinoids and a person uses it and

(10:52):
it brings them above that. ButI think that we can find the sweet
spot for a lot of this kidsjust to fix the deficiency, if you
will. So that but that youreally have to do that. But in
terms of the level. Obviously,we can't check blood levels for it,
so you kind of have to tighttrade it individually. Yeah, So what
I'm hearing from you, doctor Berger, and I mean I just dodger David,
I hear it pretty clear is thatif someone has autism or has a

(11:15):
child with autism they're interested in usingmedical cannabis, they really need to have
a really close relationship with a qualifiedphysician to help them determine the best approach
for that child so that they canget the help that they need. Yes,
and I'll clarify that they's a goodand knowledgeable physician because to be qualified,
according to the state, you justneed to take a two hour class

(11:39):
that teaches you how to put patientsinto the registry. There's no requirement for
the state that you have to knowanything about it and be a DO or
an MD. Those are the onlytwo requirements to be qualified according to the
state. So, just to beclear, just because somebody has received that
their physician certification doesn't mean any'll buppkus. So that's important today. So knowing

(12:00):
somebody who does that, and that'swhy one of the things that I also
do is I actually developed a seconddoctor David MD is an educational company.
So if patients are too far awayfrom me, or they see another doctor
but they don't have a clue whatto do. A lot of people will
consult with me on how to dothe proper titration, how to understand terpenes,
which I know we didn't get muchinto that yet. You know what

(12:22):
which companies are you know, I'lleven do online shopping with them. I'm
like, let's go to the dispensary, like, this is the product I
would recommend that you take or Iwould suggest that you take, you know,
And this is this is a youknow, when I do the education,
I kind of have to use whereits is this is the typical type
of dosing regimen that I would usein an individual, since obviously I'm not
their pain their doctor at that point, so I have to use a little

(12:43):
bit different wording things like the thingslike, you know, the types of
the types of dosing that I talkabout is this you know, So it's
a little different since the not thedoctor patient relationship. So what resources would
you recommend to families or individuals whoare considering cannabis as a treatment for autism?
What? Uh, what resources doyou recommend for them to look at.
Yeah, well, I would say, you know, in all honesty

(13:05):
my YouTube channel Doctor David MD,I do a lot of a lot of
articles when it comes to cannabis,all types of things, right, I
mean do a lot of other stufftoo, and autism is one of my
subs stories. Also, you knowleafly dot com l e a f l
y. Leafly dot com is areally really good resource for all things.
There's also the Realm of Caring.I think it's the rock dot com or

(13:28):
dot org Realm of carring. Theyare really the people who started working with
you know, as people who areknowledgeable in things like autism Charlotte's Web,
which was the first real CBD liquidthat was available for seizures and then autism,
and so they were kind of involvedas with a nonprofit of helping set
that up as well. So that'sa really good resource. Mm hmm.

(13:50):
That's really interesting. So I wantto kind of like have you share some
like, like what are the keytakeaways for anyone one that's listening to this
show as far as Okay, you'veheard doctor David talk about how cannabis can
work. We talked a little bitabout what the risk could potentially be.
We talked about what the benefits,potential benefits could be. We talked about

(14:13):
the resources. But is there anythingelse that you would like to share that
if they're considering it, you know, here's probably the best first step,
or here's something you should be youknow doing to yeah, make that decision.
Well, certainly I would encourage research, you know. You know,
part of any formed form of informedconsent is that you weigh the you know,

(14:37):
the risks versus benefits compared to thealternatives. That's the medical definition of
informed consent. So of course youshould know about the different options. Now
that I have family said to me, hey, we've been on every medication
it's not working or the side effectsyou to that. Sometimes I have families
should say I don't want to putpharmaceuticals into my kid. I'd much rather
put a natural substance into my kid. So you know, understand, apparent

(15:00):
I need to kind of a justa a take a centering of themselves to
say, to kind of figure outwhat what's about that? But you know,
the nice thing about it is likeyou know, the dose that you
take works the very first time youtake it, or if it's not enough
or whatever or the side effect.So compared to a lot of other medications,
be it like prozac or zoloft orit takes weeks to know if it's

(15:22):
even working. You need to Youcan't just increase the dose rapidly. You
have to take a lot of time. If you need to come off that,
you have to take time to comeoff of it, weaning it down.
One of the really good benefits ofcannabis is that you know right away
what you got with that dose.Even though people will find that first day,
I always recommend wait three to fourdays before you either change dose,
change products, et cetera, justbecause maybe you're gonna have a good day

(15:46):
or a bad day. But youknow, three to four days you should
have a pretty good idea what that'sdoing for you. Okay, And if
you need, you know, youcan use it on week on school days
and now not weekends, you canyou know, you can titrate the dose
as you need. So that's againworking with the with the physician who understands
all of those nuances does make ita rather easy thing for parents to figure

(16:07):
out. But you know, youknow, but part of even like when
I'm talking to them. You know, I'm talking to a family, well,
what are the main symptoms that we'redealing with, you know, And
if their main issue is my kid'snot sleeping, you know, I'd be
be talking to them about a veryheavily indiga form of THC if the CBG
I mean the CBD in the cbN didn't work. Whereas of purpose is

(16:30):
telling me, hey, I'm reallyfocusing on my kids focused attention. That's
really where the help is. Well, I don't want to put somebody into
la la land, which is wherean indigo would be. So I talked
to them about, well, thisis how we approach tativa's and then but
one of the also things that wedo is we share with every patient what
we call the terpene wheel. It'sa list of all of the different terpenes.

(16:51):
So, for those who don't know, the other main ingredient in cannabis
besides kinnabinoids are the terpenes. Inpart, it's what changes the smell on
the taste of it. So ifyou've been around it enough, you may
notice that it doesn't always smell thesame. Sometimes it's more floral or citrusy
or skunky, so that's the terpenesat play, but also the effects.
So there are certain terpenes that arebetter for pain, or better for focus,

(17:14):
or better for sleep. So youknow, so a lot of what
we're also doing is part of ourpatient education, which every patient we we
have a patient education room. Everysingle patient after their first appointment comes to
our education room, works with ourpatient educator. That patient educator is also
there to help guide them throughout theseven months of the certification. You know,
we don't charge questions for that,you know, charge for that,
we be that's part of the servicethat we provide. So you know,

(17:37):
so it's really that education. Butyou know, if you don't understand the
difference about terpenes, you could reallysend things in the wrong direction. You
know, my kid's sleeping worse.I'm like, yeah, you just gave
your kid a major sativa there.That's why. So we educate that we
make sure that that doesn't happen.Yeah, and because of your experience,
you know, like you mentioned,over twenty years of experience working with plant

(17:59):
based medicine, you're called on aroundthe nation to you know, just provide
your insights and everything. And rightnow we actually have a question from a
Melissa asking, you know you referenceearlier about changes at the federal level when
it comes to cannabis. Melissa isasking, how can we influence cannabis policy
with research and lived experience. Well, you know, certainly, you know,

(18:22):
at this point in time, youknow, certainly legislators could go ahead
and pass a bill saying to reschedule, but it ultimately that's kind of like
an executive decision. So pressing,you know, at this point, it
really seems that the biggest decisions atthe White House. So writing letters to
the White House, you know,encouraging President Biden to facilitate his executive branch

(18:42):
to do this is probably going tobe the most helpful thing. Send pictures
of your kids, send stories ofyour kids with autism. Nothing tugs at
the heartstrings better than that. Andso and obviously to sharing going on media,
you know, media does love tohear these types of stories. So
if you if you're one who's hada really good six story with cannabis,
they they love that. From whatI've been told by a news reporter that

(19:06):
some of the two most sought afterstories are stories about kids. You know
that people will watch stories about kidsand stories about marijuana. And so if
you have a story that incorporates isboth it, it's considered media gold.
So you know, whether it's adoctor who's willing to go on with you
or are you telling it your storyobviously about that, you know, that's
how it came to be with thepatient, and I've done I've done other
patients over the time too, andI do make myself very available to media

(19:32):
in order to get the word outas much as I can. You know
about that, but you know,it's just spreading the word, getting the
word out, you know it.Certainly can still write to your legislators and
maybe they can put pressure on theon the on the executive branch too.
Yeah. Well, doctor David,this was such a rich conversation. Can
you share with our listeners and viewersthe best way for them to contact you
and learn more about the work thatyou're doing. Absolutely. So. My

(19:53):
main medical practice is holistic with aW because we look at the whole picture,
holistic family care. The Cannabis Clinicis again holistic with a W.
Relief, holistic relief, but it'sour E L E A F. So
we played off the word leaf thereholistic relief dot com and then as a
doctor David MD, d R DavidMD is uh is the YouTube channel,

(20:15):
and then I think it's paging doctorDavid is the paging doctor David MD is
the uh my call for a socialmedia and then I do have a Patreon
page also that fit people want tosupport what the work we do to help
make our educational videos and stuff.We appreciate that too. Okay, well,
I was about to wrap up,but we just got a great question
from Shakanda who's on Facebook. Let'sbring that up. So, for an

(20:37):
adult that has just been diagnosed,what would you recommend the traditional pharmaceutical treatment
or alternative plant based treatment? BOkay, so you know, coming back
to what we were saying before aboutthe spectrum. Okay, so really it
depends on what the individual symptoms are. So you know, if if a
person, let's say, is havingautism and irritability from a pharmaceutical perspective,

(21:03):
then those anti psychotic medications can workvery well. Whereas if their problem is
eighty more attention focus issues than thestimulant medications or non stimulant medications, and
again anxiety, the anxiety antidepression typesof medications. And then in terms of
alternative plant based treatment. Again,you know, I use lots of other
different herbs in my practice and otherdifferent types of supplements. I use amino

(21:26):
acid. They'll may get three fattyacids, lots of different vitamins. So
you know, in my main practicewhat I do is I check levels a
lot of those things like vitamin Dlevels and zinc levels. And my point
of the way I approach it isI aim to get people into the middle
part of reference range. A lotof doctors don't, They just say you're
in range, You're fine, SoI think that that's really important. But
then another big thing that we doin the functional medicine world is focusing on

(21:49):
the intestinal microbiome. How are thegood guys, the good bacteria, the
flora, how are those levels,and are there any bad guys growing there's
any inflammation. So that's kind ofthe bigger picture of what we do,
you know, and that can getto a lot of the root cause issues
with autism. So the way Ilook at it is that cannabis is not
fixing the root cause except for inthat potential deficiency state, right Whereas you

(22:12):
know, obviously all those other medications, whether stimum medications, eight anxiety medications,
et cetera. You know, they'reobviously not getting to the root cause.
Also, but if your root causeis a vitamin D deficiency, if
your root cause is that you haveintestinal yeast that secretes toxins that can make
the brain not function properly, youfix that. You can get to the

(22:32):
root cause. So that's what Ialso like to do. So to me
cannabis. While it is a veryamazing tool, it's one of the most
helpful tools that I have for autism, I also want to look for the
root cause. Yeah, all right, and we got one more question we'll
wrap up with. It is Aliasagain with another question. All right,
could you please provide some examples ofthe pharmaceutical drops that are available at pharmacies.

(22:55):
I think drops of the THC areperfect substitutes for xenx as well.
Okay, so there are no THCdrops at pharmacies. The only place that
one can get THC drops is froma state legal medical marijuana Treatment center or
MMTC, or as most people callthem, dispensaries. Okay, so yeah,

(23:15):
you're not going to find it ina pharmaceutical There is no such thing
as pharmaceutical drops. The only thingthat is pharmaceutical is a CBD product called
Epidialects that's been FDA approved for certainseizure disorders, and that's a high concentration
particular product. But you're not goingto find you know, there is one
synthetic THC product that's used for peoplewho have cancer and aids for a synthetic

(23:36):
form of THC, but that's notsomething that I use. Okay, And
we have people wanting to know yourcontact information, so we're posting in the
live comments on Facebook and YouTube thelink to your website so they can find
out how to contact you via phone, email, and where you're located.
Sounds great, okay, Well,doctor David, thank you so much for

(23:59):
being a guest on this Conversation onCannabis Virtual Form, brought to you by
the Medical Marijuana Education and Research Initiativeat Florida and M University. Thank you
to everyone watching this program. Tellus what you think about this forum by
completing the survey post it in thecomment boxes on YouTube and Facebook after this
live program. If you complete thesurvey, your name will be entered into

(24:22):
a drawing on May seventh, twentytwenty four to win a one hundred dollars
gift card provided by one of Mary'spartners. We also want to encourage you
to go to the Florida Department ofHealth Office of Medical Marijuana Use website to
learn how to obtain a legal medicalmarijuana card in the state of Florida.
And we also encourage you to goto Florida and M University's Merry website to

(24:45):
learn more about this initiative, it'seducational programs and additional information about cannabis use
in Florida. Thanks everyone, saveilsand opinions of our invited guest, not
necessarily the views and opinions of FloridaAgricultural and Mechanical University or the Medical Marijuana
Education and Research Initiative