Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
From the WA and M Studio on the campus of
Florida A and M University. This is Mary Forum Radio, a.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Weekly conversation on the education and research of the medical
marijuana being conducted to at BMW.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
HI. I'm Kaigi Outway, your host for this conversations on
cannabis virtual form, brought to you by the Medical Marijuana
Education and Research Initiative at Florida and M University. In
this conversation, we're talking about the risks and benefits of
ketamine therapy as a treatment for marijuana addiction. So let's
(00:33):
talk and learn about this subject with our guests. Doctor
Aaron Boyd is a board certified emergency medicine physician and
the owner of Lumina Mine Health, a clinic that specializes
in treatment resistant mood disorders and substance abuse. Doctor Boyd,
Welcome to the Forum. Tell us more about tell us
more about yourself.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Well, thank you so much, Heidi for having me. I'm
really excited to talk about this topic. I have been
practiced saying emergency medicine for over a decade now and
I have treated a wide variety of emergency conditions that
include psychiatric conditions, and I have also been well versed
in using ketamine during my entire career, and so I
(01:15):
came across some very interesting research over the last several
years that combine kind of this new types of therapy
using ketemine for mood disorders, and I thought it would
be a great way for me to combine my experience
and open a clinic to help people in a little
bit of a different way good.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
I'm looking forward to learning more about that and sharing
that information with our viewers and listeners. And to everyone
joining us on this live program, please share post and
tag a friend on Facebook to have them join this conversation.
If you're on YouTube, share the links so others can
join us. During the form, we want you to send
us your questions in the comment box and we'll do
(01:50):
our best to have doctor Boyd answer them. We also
want you to tell us what you think about this
form by completing the survey posted in the comments on
YouTube and Facebook. After the live program, your name will
be entered into a drawing on September fifth, twenty twenty
four to win a one hundred dollars gift card provided
by one of Mary's partners. Now, let's start this conversation
(02:12):
on cannabis. So doctor boy, let's just go ahead and
tell everyone what is ketamine.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Well, ketymine was actually first developed in the sixties, and
it is an FDA approved drug for anesthesia, So it's
used in the operating room for anesthesia. I use it
in the university department for sedation purposes. It can be
used for pain purposes. So it was developed for a
really a completely different reason than for mood disorders. But
(02:41):
interesting research in the early nineties kind of found that
ketamine might have some alternative uses in treating treatment resistant
mood disorders like depression anxiety PTSD, and so there's kind
of this new version of research that developed twenty thirty
years ago, and now we have more evidence that shows
(03:01):
that it can treat people.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
In a different way than just in the o R
or in the imerge department.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
Okay, so what is ketamine therapy and how long has
it been around?
Speaker 1 (03:13):
In this context, ketamine therapy is if somebody is diagnosed
with a treatment resistant mood disorder, like, for example, you
will use depression. So if somebody has tried multiple types
of medications or types of therapy for their depression, let's say,
and they're not improving they're not getting better, which is
(03:33):
unfortunately quite a bit of people.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
People can come and receive ivy ketemine therapy, and.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Evidence shows that if done in the correct way and
under the guidance of a physician that knows that knows
about this type of type of treatment, we can really
see improvement in their mood disorders. And so they would
come to my clinic, for example, and receive several sessions
of ivy ketamine to treat their mood disorder.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
So I think that's the general context of what we're saying.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
Ketamine therapy is okay, okay, and then you kind of
can you kind of walk us through what that process
looks like. You know, how is it given to the patients?
I think you menstered? You managed?
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Is administered through.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Infusions? Is that correct? Tell us about that process?
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Okay? Well, how we do here at lumin of Mine
is first and foremost we want to make sure we
select the right patient. So we really pride.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Ourselves in making sure that the patient really does meet
a criteria from a treatment resistant mood disorder or of
course it's a substance use disorder as well. So when
they come to my clinic, they see me and also
a BORE certified psychiatric nurse practitioner who works alongside me,
and we evaluate the patient and if they meet these
certain criteria that they try different modalities for their mood,
(04:50):
disorder or addiction and they're not we're not seeing the
treatment of the improvement that they would like, we deem
them appropriate candidate to receive ivy KEDEMYE therapy. And so
what that means is we only provide IV therapy. There
are there are different other ways you can use ketamine.
There can be an im shot in your muscle, it
can be used orally. But here we just do IV.
(05:12):
We do a minimum separate IV therapies over a two
to three week period and we monitor their mood, We
monitor maybe their cravings or types of symptoms. But for
whatever reason they're coming in for. And so that's kind
of the general context of when when pieces patients are
kind of coming into the clinic for their therapy.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
Yeah, so so how do you we so for someone
who may have been dealing with cannabis use disorder or
a marijuana addiction, how does that treatment apply to them?
Speaker 1 (05:43):
So, first I can talk a little bit about ketamine,
So how how it works in the brain. And what's
really interesting about it is it works on a on
a receptor called the NMDA receptor, and it antagonizes this receptor.
And what this means is it causes this pretty incredible
downstream effect that increases a neurotrans are called glutamate. And
when this neurotransmitter is in the brain, it increases communication
(06:07):
in the brain. It increases the ability to kind of
almost cause nerve create nerve growth.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
And when that do is it can change somebody's.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Way to where they think about certain things, maybe the
way the reasons why they may be addicted. So it
kind of opens their mind to a different way of thinking,
which I think is very fascinating.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
So if someone's coming.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
In here to receive treatment for cannabis use disorder or
maybe another type of addiction, we can use typical modalities
like motivational type enhancement therapies or cognitive via oral therapies,
but which.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Which do work.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
But in addition to using something like hetamine that might
increase the brain to be more open to change. Well,
if that's what they're coming in for and they're addicted,
we want that. We want somebody's thought process to maybe change.
They're not suffering from the addiction.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
And the thought process that go along with the addiction.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
So the addition of ketamine therapy can be very helpful
for candiacy disorder and other substances disorders as well.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
That's really fascinating. So if someone is when they're getting
this infusion you talked about, you know, the impact on
the brain, what do they feel during and then after
the infusion.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
During the infusion, most people feel a sense of calm.
They might have a bit of a fork feeling, but
also almost a dissociative feeling.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
And the ketamine is also.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Known as a dissociative anesthetic, and which means it's kind
of an out of body experience, so people may feel
that they're floating.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Some people describe it as they might see kind of
orbit space or there there in the sky, or or
some people can kind of see different things or see shapes.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
I mean, it can be very everybody's very different, but
generally you'll find it to be some a calming, peaceful,
tightened experience.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
And then when they're done with the infusion, what do
you all do before you send them home?
Speaker 2 (08:11):
We so at our clinic.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
So the infusion itself actually lasts forty minutes, and then
we allow twenty minutes for the drug to sort of
wear off.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
So that's an hour.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
But then we also have another hour that's always blocked off,
where I have my nurse practitioner who's for certified in
psychiatry in the room with every patient. So after that hour,
we spend time either discussing maybe what the experience was,
or if they're coming in for depression or their substance abuse,
(08:42):
maybe there's that's a very vulnerable time in somebody's brain
that they can talk through things or whatever their experience
was or kind of whatever came about the infusion, So
we also.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Spend that hour providing that type of care as well.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
And then as long as they can tolerate maybe some fluids,
they can can get up and a walk, then we.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Deem them appropriate to be discharged, and.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Then we make sure otient patient has an appropriate safe
friud with a trusted family or friend to go home with.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Okay, And then I'm sure everyone who's listening or is wondering, well,
what are the side effects?
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Of course, yeah, so some of the side effects, I
mean in terms of maybe some negative side effects. Some
people do get nauseated, or feel like they might throw
up unfortunately, and so we can provide medication for that
as needed. Dizziness is a common one, but the drug
wears off fairly quickly after.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
A couple hours.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
It's typically out of your system, and any kind of
adversid effects are typically gone fairly quickly.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
So are there so if someone is listening to this
and they're just you know, considered, I'm curious to know
this would work for me. Are there previous conditions that
would make someone a poor candidate for ketamine therapy?
Speaker 2 (09:52):
There are so, particularly we're not treating currently patients.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
You have a history of u ecosis or mania, schizophrenia.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
These are.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Mental illnesses that right now kademy and we're not treating.
So if you have a history of that, you're unlikely
to be a candidate. If you have a very uncontrolled
high blood pressure, we would prefer that you might go
to your primary career, a physician and get that managed
a little bit more appropriately before receiving kedemine therapy. Any
recent heart attacks or strokes, we probably would wait some
time or maybe at clearance from a pardiologist, for example,
(10:28):
before you each receive treatment.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
So there are and.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
We don't treat pregnant patients or people under.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
The age of eighteen. So those are some exclusion criteria.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Yeah, you mentioned the primary care physician. So what is
the relationship between what you're doing and other therapists who
do what you do with someone who is using keademine therapy,
and then how do you bring in that primary care physician.
How does that relationship work.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Well, many primary care physicians are the sole treatment providers
for a lot of times for patients with depression, anxiety,
and sometimes are substance uses, and so.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
That can be good and bad.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
So as a primary care position, they're busy, there have
a lot going on. So if they have a patient
that they're just not receiving the improvements like they want
with whatever medications they tried, they can refer to us
and we'd be happy to see them. And I really
enjoy sort of that collaborative relationship with other primary care
positions that they can just send patients to us, call me,
(11:26):
refer patients to me, and we can treat patients that way.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
That's so interesting. So how common is ketymine therapy in Florida?
I mean, is it growing in popularity now?
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Yeah, it is growing I try to do a bit
of a search on how many clinics are and I
found it that there's quite a few clinics just in
Tallahassee alone, I was able to find five that provide
I be kedemy therapy for various reasons that gold mine.
So I think that's that's quite a few for our population.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
So it is growing and I think it's expected to
grow over the next several years.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
So with more and more people looking into it. Does
insurance cover keademine therapy.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Right now, as far as I know, at least in
Florida there are it is not covered by insurance, but
people can use their health savings account and we can
provide supervills for patients that they can submit to their
insurance carriage to see if they can get reimbursement, and
some people do have quite a bit.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Of luck with that. Yeah. Well, as you can imagine,
we're starting to get questions from people asking about people
associate keadymene used with celebrities like Matthew Perry who died
from overuse of the drug. So let's pull up this
question from Dat Spencer guy who said, is ketamine in
the class of opioids and what are your thoughts on
(12:44):
Matthew Perry who's on kedemene treatment and he passed away.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Sure, So ketamine is a it is a scheduled drug.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
It's a Class three scheduled drug that is monitored by
the DEA. So in terms of opiates, yes, that's also
a control of something as well. So in order to
be able to provide ketamine, you have to have a
DA license in your clinic hast to be have a
DA license affiliated with the address. So in terms of
Matthew Perry, you know he from from what I've read,
(13:15):
he was receiving ivy kedemy therapy for his addiction or
mental health conditions.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
In terms of where it transitioned from the.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
IV therapy in an appropriate clinical setting to being abused,
I don't know the trajectory in terms of that, but
I do know in terms of the autopsy report, you know,
saying that he died from the clinical effects of kedemine. Well,
his serum concentration of ketymine in his bloodstream was in
the realm of thirty five hundred nanogram from MEALI meter.
(13:48):
And to put into context of what we're doing here
when I'm treating somebody with ketymine, my, the estimated serum
of concentration that I'm doing is anywhere from as low
as one hundred fifty nanograms familiator too at very maximum
three hundred nanagrims familiar.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
So that's that's less than a ten percent amount that
we're giving somebody.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
I mean, this is again in the realm of three thousand,
oh my, and we're we're dealing with less than three
hundred is where I'm calculate. I'm not giving anybody over
that when I calculate that out, so perspective, what he
was doing at home is much much different than.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
What we're doing here.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
And also I just want to reiterate, you know, at
our at my clinic, I find it extremely important that
it's not just me providing the ivy kedemy as an
ear doctor. I also have that a psychiatric borturovite psychiatric
professional working alongside me, which I think is a very
important part. And I don't know specifics again of Matthew Perry,
but if there were any signs that he was addiction
(14:49):
addicted or whatever, and you know, maybe there were signs,
I don't know, but if patients are coming to me
for their addiction treatment. I really want to make sure
that I have also somebody specialized in psychiatry managing these
patients as well with me, so that we can make
sure we're making an informed decision on how to treat
them and that they're safe.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
Yeah, are there any other safety measures that people should
be considerate of or are there resources where they can
get insights on how to identify and find someone to
you know, provide this therapy.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
So unfortunately, because ketamine is not FDA approved for mood
disorders and substances disorders, it kind of makes it a
little bit of the wild West.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
I guess you could say, in terms of how we're
using ketamine right now in the medical bild.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
I think there is research out there that shows quite
amazing benefit. But if it's not in the right hands
or under the right clinic, or however it's.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Managed, it could be it could be dangerous.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
So I think if you're looking to receive ibketemine, you
should go to a place that is either as a
physician or somebody who's trained and knows how to use
ketemine specifically for mood disorders. So there's certifications that providers
can obtain. And also I think it's important that they
have a psychiatric provider either on site or who works
in collaboration with you as the patient, and I think
(16:10):
that's very important. Also, I think it's important that whoever
is giving you I've akedemine is also well versed in
life threatening emergencies, who also have the appropriate equipment at
their office, which just in case there is any sort
of emergency that a professional knows how to use it
and has the appropriate safety measures there. And I think
as a patient, you have every right to ask that
(16:31):
at the clinic and ask that to your potential Keademy
provider when you go, if you go see them.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
Okay, well, I know we touched on it a little
bit earlier in the show, but we have a follow
up question from Sarah olgis Be asking about what does
a typical treatment look like? And we kind of touch
on it, but if you for those who you know,
came in a little late, let's let's go back on that. So,
how does a typical treatment look like? How many sessions
and how often do you need to retreat?
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Okay, So a typical trick is when the patient comes
in for their let's say they're coming up for the
very first treatment of IVA academy.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
We've deemed them appropriate, we've cleared them. They're coming in.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
So the first thing is we place an IV, We
place them on a monitor. We check their blood pressure,
We make sure their heart rate is okay, their auction
levels are okay. Based on their weight that day, what
medications they're on, I calculate the appropriate dose that they
need to get, and I make the infusion here in
(17:29):
the clinic and we start the infusion, hook.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Up to their IV, start the infusion.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
It's forty minutes long, and at the peak of the at.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
The forty minutes is when it stops, is when you're
kind of have your peak feelings. We kind of discussed
the association and all the things that you may feel.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
And then that particular session we repeat at minimums six
times over a two to three week period. And the
reason for that is because ketamine, it builds up certain metabolites.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
And it creates those kind of long lasting changes. So
you do need kind of.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
This loading dose in a short period of time to
create some of those long lasting changes.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Some people do.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Need a maintenance or booster infusion, and that varies from
patient to patient. Sometimes it can be four to six weeks.
It could be months, a year, maybe never. Everybody's a
little bit different, but sometimes there is a booster needed.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
And then and then what are you and I we
talked when we were doing our prep for the for
the for the show. You mentioned some success stories about,
you know, people not using whatever the drug was, whatever
their addictions were, were going away. Can you talk a
little bit about that?
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Yeah, yeah, I mean after Yeah, I had just a
patient the other night say to me and Trish, she's
my nurspectitioner, just that without our treatment, that he thinks
he may not be here with us anymore.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
He was so severely depressed, so severely just not doing well.
And in combination with.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Our team and his in his psychiatrist in the community,
working together, we have just he.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
His his life is I think we saved a life.
I mean, so that's just one story.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
But the treatment is this treatment works if it's done
correctly under the right guidance.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
Yeah. So do people who go through the treatments do
they need to make some lifestyle changes, including those including
those who may have marijuana addiction. What are your recommendations there?
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Yeah, I think I think when somebody is currently in
the midst of their depression or maybe their addiction. It's
difficult to make some of those known wellness elect choices
that we all know, eating right and exercising right.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
So our process is, let's first, let's get.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
You feeling better first, let's kind of mentally make let's
figure out how we can get the depression better or
your addiction symptoms better. After that, once we get to
a place where you your mood might be lifted, then
let's talk about more wellness things.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Let's talk better diet, go.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
To your make sure you're going to your primary care
position to get your basically blood work done, your you know,
annual things done that we all need, exercise.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
And so it's hard. It's sometimes it's hard to make
those recommendations when somebody's kind of down or in the
midst of something negative.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Right, So that's sort of the part of all of this,
that we can make some of these long clasting changes
and then here in the clinic and then recommend some
of those other amazing things after.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Yeah, so I'm just curious how does Kennemine therapy compare
to other forms of addiction treatments.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
So what I think is very fascinating about ketymine is
we give six treatments right over the two or three
week period, and then you're not taking it every day,
so it's not an everyday medicine, which I think is
pretty fascinating.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
So a lot of.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
People who's from addiction or are using pharmacotherapies a lot
of times have to take a daily medicine with it,
right or so, I think what can be very appealing
and very interesting is if you're going to come here
and receive ibkedemy for your sebon c disorder or cannabisy's.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Disorder, and you don't want to just for a place
one medicine with another.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
It's sort of a way to say, hey, we can
give you these treatments and it's not something that you're
gonna have to take every day. You're making actual legitimate
changes in your brain, your brain chemistry and how it
works to sort of live your life a little bit better.
So that's what I like about kindemine therapy.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
I find it very interesting.
Speaker 3 (21:17):
Yeah, I'm just curious to know you mentioned the research earlier.
I'm just curious to know if they're looking at using
this for other conditions, not necessarily substance abuse or depression,
but other things that you know, other medical conditions.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Have you heard some.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Things Parkinson's disease, fibromyalgia, some other types of things are
are being looked at.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
So they're very very interesting topics. Hopefully in the future
will be discovered.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
Yeah, I'm curious to see that too. Let's talk a
little bit about the what's happening here in Florida on
the negative side to some degree. So in Florida, you know,
we've and we talked about this during our pre meeting,
there's been an influx of people overdosing on what's called
pink cocaine, which is a bas of cocaine and ketamine.
(22:09):
How dangerous is using this drug recreationally?
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Well, yeah, so I I did look into this and
actually and maybe if I miss but actually I don't
think it actually has cocaine in it.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
So from what I read, it is a pink substance
that has ketamine. It can have caffeine, and it can
have MDMA, which is also known as eccessne.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
And it mixed in this like wine fine powder, and
they put like a pink dye in it, so it
looks pink, but they it's termed pink cocaine. And I
think the dangerous part about this is if it is
used as a kind of a designer party drug. It's
what it sounds like, and so and these come across
all the year. You know, over the years, there's always
a new sort of designer drug. I guess you could
(22:49):
say that's being abused. So this one in particular might
be sort of dangerous just because cocaine, you know, we
all know it's been used recolationally for years.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
But if somebody's out there recreationally thinking they're about.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
To do something like cocaine, but instead of cocaine, which
does the effects are.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Going to be much different if you are about to receive.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Ketamine and MDMA, right, So you're gonna switch to something
that's just maybe it's a stimulant for a potentially a
psychedelic and it's especially in terms of a female, right,
or you're going to be more at risk for you
not being aware of what's going on, and it can increase, uh,
you know, your cardiovascaclar risk, and so it can be
(23:29):
very dangerous, specially if it's under this name of pink cocaine.
When you're not in cocaine, you're getting a psychedelic essentially,
so it.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Can be it can be pretty dangerous.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
Well, we're seeing an increase in psychedelic use in the
state of Florida. You know, does ketamine have other names
that are associated with it that may be more well
known on the street versus a medical setting.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Yeah, I mean I have a special K. It's in
cat valium kit kat valuum.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Yeah, because it's I don't know if there's a reason why,
but I'm imagined because it can be in the in
the veterinary sense. Maybe I'm honestly, I just I don't know,
But those are some names I've come across, But special
K I think probably is the most common.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
And and you know, I again, I first heard more
about it on some of the more popular, you know
shows on Netflix and other you know, streaming shows where
they show young people using ketamine, and then of course
the tragedy with Matthew Perry. So I think it's becoming
a lot more known. And what and what are you
seeing in hearing as far as you know, people talking
(24:37):
about it in in the in not only mainstream media,
but just in general. Are you having more people reach
out to you out of curiosity? What do you what
are you seeing in hearing well?
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Interesting?
Speaker 1 (24:47):
I mean, as as an er doctor, interestingly, I probably
have seen an increase or a rise in people coming
into the er after using kenemene in terms of maybe
they use too much of it or whatever. And I
would say, even in my earlier days and my training,
I don't think I ever saw anybody who came in
with an acute kenemine ingestion or overdose or anything like that.
So there's definitely been quite a bit of a surge,
(25:08):
I would say, at least in the er where patients
are abusing ketamine and having some adverse effects from it. Yeah,
I mean, and there's just more talk and that's just
going to happen, I mean, if ketamine is being used
clinically medically safely. Unfortunately, the drug abuse unfortunately is part
of sometimes some of these medically useful drugs, and so
(25:30):
we just have to educate the public on it and
know that there are good treatments treatment uses for it,
but unfortunately there are there are negative too.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
Yeah. So, aside from your website, which has a wealth
of information about kademine therapy, do you have any other
recommendations for where people can get credible information about kennemine
and cheemine therapy.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Yeah, there are some associations.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
There's an association called the Association of Ketymene Providers essentially
is a data is an association which is where you
can you have to get cleared and so you can
be a part of making sure and they make sure
you're at least on a legitimate clinics and being you
can so you can search on that.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
It's a k SPU dot com. You can kind of
search for clinics there and just and you.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Have to be your own own advocate and just I
would recommend finding a clinic that has the safety nets
we discussed, but also a psychiatric safety net as well,
and not just a clinic that just you cohen and
you get your kennemine and leave. There's a lot of
clinics like that that kind of reminds you a little
bit of this opiate crisis esque sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
Right, we all remember that and we don't want that.
We want a place that people can come that's safe,
that's not harm people.
Speaker 3 (26:49):
Yeah, your research.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
About that too, I mean as a patient.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Yeah, well this was very very informative. I mean the
comments in the on the social is just like, this
is so informative. People are getting a lot of good
information here. Do you have any closing thoughts before we
read up this conversation, any any best practices or information
that you'd like to share with our viewers and listeners.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Yes, I just think I just want to just really
reiterate that if you think kenemine is a treatment option
for you, do your own research and what clinic you're
going to go to. I recommend that you go somewhere
that has a either a Bore certified physician or at
least has that backing and has experience with life threatening
(27:31):
emergencies just in the clinic, who has appropriate monitoring equipment
and also has which is also equally important, to have
a psychiatric provider that also provides you with a psychiatric
safety net, because again, you're at a coming to a
place for help, and the last thing we want is
for you to leave Academy clinic worse or you know.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
So that's that's my recommendation.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
All right, well, doctor boy, thank you so much for
being our guest on this Conversations on Cannabis Virtual Form,
brought to you by the Medical Marijuana Education and Research
Initiative at Florida and M University. Thank you to everyone
watching this program. Tell us what you think about this
form by completing the survey posted in the comment boxes
on YouTube and Facebook after this live program. If you
(28:18):
complete the survey, your name will be entered into a
drawing on September fifth, twenty twenty four, to win a
one hundred dollars gift car provided by one of Mary's partners.
We also want to encourage you to go to the
Florida Department of Health Office of Medical Marijuana Use website
to learn how to obtain a legal medical marijuana card
in the state of Florida. We also encourage you to
go to Florida and M University's Merry website to learn
(28:40):
more about this initiative is educational program and additional information
about cannabis use in Florida. Thanks everyone. The views and
opinions of our invited guests are not necessarily the views
and opinions of Florida Agricultural and Mechanical University or the
Medical Marijuana Education Shouldn't Research Initiative.
From the WA and M Studio on the campus of
Florida A and M University. This is Mary Forum Radio, a.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Weekly conversation on the education and research of the medical
marijuana being conducted to at BMW.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
HI. I'm Kaigi Outway, your host for this conversations on
cannabis virtual form, brought to you by the Medical Marijuana
Education and Research Initiative at Florida and M University. In
this conversation, we're talking about the risks and benefits of
ketamine therapy as a treatment for marijuana addiction. So let's
(00:33):
talk and learn about this subject with our guests. Doctor
Aaron Boyd is a board certified emergency medicine physician and
the owner of Lumina Mine Health, a clinic that specializes
in treatment resistant mood disorders and substance abuse. Doctor Boyd,
Welcome to the Forum. Tell us more about tell us
more about yourself.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Well, thank you so much, Heidi for having me. I'm
really excited to talk about this topic. I have been
practiced saying emergency medicine for over a decade now and
I have treated a wide variety of emergency conditions that
include psychiatric conditions, and I have also been well versed
in using ketamine during my entire career, and so I
(01:15):
came across some very interesting research over the last several
years that combine kind of this new types of therapy
using ketemine for mood disorders, and I thought it would
be a great way for me to combine my experience
and open a clinic to help people in a little
bit of a different way good.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
I'm looking forward to learning more about that and sharing
that information with our viewers and listeners. And to everyone
joining us on this live program, please share post and
tag a friend on Facebook to have them join this conversation.
If you're on YouTube, share the links so others can
join us. During the form, we want you to send
us your questions in the comment box and we'll do
(01:50):
our best to have doctor Boyd answer them. We also
want you to tell us what you think about this
form by completing the survey posted in the comments on
YouTube and Facebook. After the live program, your name will
be entered into a drawing on September fifth, twenty twenty
four to win a one hundred dollars gift card provided
by one of Mary's partners. Now, let's start this conversation
(02:12):
on cannabis. So doctor boy, let's just go ahead and
tell everyone what is ketamine.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Well, ketymine was actually first developed in the sixties, and
it is an FDA approved drug for anesthesia, So it's
used in the operating room for anesthesia. I use it
in the university department for sedation purposes. It can be
used for pain purposes. So it was developed for a
really a completely different reason than for mood disorders. But
(02:41):
interesting research in the early nineties kind of found that
ketamine might have some alternative uses in treating treatment resistant
mood disorders like depression anxiety PTSD, and so there's kind
of this new version of research that developed twenty thirty
years ago, and now we have more evidence that shows
(03:01):
that it can treat people.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
In a different way than just in the o R
or in the imerge department.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
Okay, so what is ketamine therapy and how long has
it been around?
Speaker 1 (03:13):
In this context, ketamine therapy is if somebody is diagnosed
with a treatment resistant mood disorder, like, for example, you
will use depression. So if somebody has tried multiple types
of medications or types of therapy for their depression, let's say,
and they're not improving they're not getting better, which is
(03:33):
unfortunately quite a bit of people.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
People can come and receive ivy ketemine therapy, and.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Evidence shows that if done in the correct way and
under the guidance of a physician that knows that knows
about this type of type of treatment, we can really
see improvement in their mood disorders. And so they would
come to my clinic, for example, and receive several sessions
of ivy ketamine to treat their mood disorder.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
So I think that's the general context of what we're saying.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
Ketamine therapy is okay, okay, and then you kind of
can you kind of walk us through what that process
looks like. You know, how is it given to the patients?
I think you menstered? You managed?
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Is administered through.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Infusions? Is that correct? Tell us about that process?
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Okay? Well, how we do here at lumin of Mine
is first and foremost we want to make sure we
select the right patient. So we really pride.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Ourselves in making sure that the patient really does meet
a criteria from a treatment resistant mood disorder or of
course it's a substance use disorder as well. So when
they come to my clinic, they see me and also
a BORE certified psychiatric nurse practitioner who works alongside me,
and we evaluate the patient and if they meet these
certain criteria that they try different modalities for their mood,
(04:50):
disorder or addiction and they're not we're not seeing the
treatment of the improvement that they would like, we deem
them appropriate candidate to receive ivy KEDEMYE therapy. And so
what that means is we only provide IV therapy. There
are there are different other ways you can use ketamine.
There can be an im shot in your muscle, it
can be used orally. But here we just do IV.
(05:12):
We do a minimum separate IV therapies over a two
to three week period and we monitor their mood, We
monitor maybe their cravings or types of symptoms. But for
whatever reason they're coming in for. And so that's kind
of the general context of when when pieces patients are
kind of coming into the clinic for their therapy.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
Yeah, so so how do you we so for someone
who may have been dealing with cannabis use disorder or
a marijuana addiction, how does that treatment apply to them?
Speaker 1 (05:43):
So, first I can talk a little bit about ketamine,
So how how it works in the brain. And what's
really interesting about it is it works on a on
a receptor called the NMDA receptor, and it antagonizes this receptor.
And what this means is it causes this pretty incredible
downstream effect that increases a neurotrans are called glutamate. And
when this neurotransmitter is in the brain, it increases communication
(06:07):
in the brain. It increases the ability to kind of
almost cause nerve create nerve growth.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
And when that do is it can change somebody's.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Way to where they think about certain things, maybe the
way the reasons why they may be addicted. So it
kind of opens their mind to a different way of thinking,
which I think is very fascinating.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
So if someone's coming.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
In here to receive treatment for cannabis use disorder or
maybe another type of addiction, we can use typical modalities
like motivational type enhancement therapies or cognitive via oral therapies,
but which.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Which do work.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
But in addition to using something like hetamine that might
increase the brain to be more open to change. Well,
if that's what they're coming in for and they're addicted,
we want that. We want somebody's thought process to maybe change.
They're not suffering from the addiction.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
And the thought process that go along with the addiction.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
So the addition of ketamine therapy can be very helpful
for candiacy disorder and other substances disorders as well.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
That's really fascinating. So if someone is when they're getting
this infusion you talked about, you know, the impact on
the brain, what do they feel during and then after
the infusion.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
During the infusion, most people feel a sense of calm.
They might have a bit of a fork feeling, but
also almost a dissociative feeling.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
And the ketamine is also.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Known as a dissociative anesthetic, and which means it's kind
of an out of body experience, so people may feel
that they're floating.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Some people describe it as they might see kind of
orbit space or there there in the sky, or or
some people can kind of see different things or see shapes.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
I mean, it can be very everybody's very different, but
generally you'll find it to be some a calming, peaceful,
tightened experience.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
And then when they're done with the infusion, what do
you all do before you send them home?
Speaker 2 (08:11):
We so at our clinic.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
So the infusion itself actually lasts forty minutes, and then
we allow twenty minutes for the drug to sort of
wear off.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
So that's an hour.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
But then we also have another hour that's always blocked off,
where I have my nurse practitioner who's for certified in
psychiatry in the room with every patient. So after that hour,
we spend time either discussing maybe what the experience was,
or if they're coming in for depression or their substance abuse,
(08:42):
maybe there's that's a very vulnerable time in somebody's brain
that they can talk through things or whatever their experience
was or kind of whatever came about the infusion, So
we also.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Spend that hour providing that type of care as well.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
And then as long as they can tolerate maybe some fluids,
they can can get up and a walk, then we.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Deem them appropriate to be discharged, and.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Then we make sure otient patient has an appropriate safe
friud with a trusted family or friend to go home with.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Okay, And then I'm sure everyone who's listening or is wondering, well,
what are the side effects?
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Of course, yeah, so some of the side effects, I
mean in terms of maybe some negative side effects. Some
people do get nauseated, or feel like they might throw
up unfortunately, and so we can provide medication for that
as needed. Dizziness is a common one, but the drug
wears off fairly quickly after.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
A couple hours.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
It's typically out of your system, and any kind of
adversid effects are typically gone fairly quickly.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
So are there so if someone is listening to this
and they're just you know, considered, I'm curious to know
this would work for me. Are there previous conditions that
would make someone a poor candidate for ketamine therapy?
Speaker 2 (09:52):
There are so, particularly we're not treating currently patients.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
You have a history of u ecosis or mania, schizophrenia.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
These are.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Mental illnesses that right now kademy and we're not treating.
So if you have a history of that, you're unlikely
to be a candidate. If you have a very uncontrolled
high blood pressure, we would prefer that you might go
to your primary career, a physician and get that managed
a little bit more appropriately before receiving kedemine therapy. Any
recent heart attacks or strokes, we probably would wait some
time or maybe at clearance from a pardiologist, for example,
(10:28):
before you each receive treatment.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
So there are and.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
We don't treat pregnant patients or people under.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
The age of eighteen. So those are some exclusion criteria.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Yeah, you mentioned the primary care physician. So what is
the relationship between what you're doing and other therapists who
do what you do with someone who is using keademine therapy,
and then how do you bring in that primary care physician.
How does that relationship work.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Well, many primary care physicians are the sole treatment providers
for a lot of times for patients with depression, anxiety,
and sometimes are substance uses, and so.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
That can be good and bad.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
So as a primary care position, they're busy, there have
a lot going on. So if they have a patient
that they're just not receiving the improvements like they want
with whatever medications they tried, they can refer to us
and we'd be happy to see them. And I really
enjoy sort of that collaborative relationship with other primary care
positions that they can just send patients to us, call me,
(11:26):
refer patients to me, and we can treat patients that way.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
That's so interesting. So how common is ketymine therapy in Florida?
I mean, is it growing in popularity now?
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Yeah, it is growing I try to do a bit
of a search on how many clinics are and I
found it that there's quite a few clinics just in
Tallahassee alone, I was able to find five that provide
I be kedemy therapy for various reasons that gold mine.
So I think that's that's quite a few for our population.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
So it is growing and I think it's expected to
grow over the next several years.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
So with more and more people looking into it. Does
insurance cover keademine therapy.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Right now, as far as I know, at least in
Florida there are it is not covered by insurance, but
people can use their health savings account and we can
provide supervills for patients that they can submit to their
insurance carriage to see if they can get reimbursement, and
some people do have quite a bit.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Of luck with that. Yeah. Well, as you can imagine,
we're starting to get questions from people asking about people
associate keadymene used with celebrities like Matthew Perry who died
from overuse of the drug. So let's pull up this
question from Dat Spencer guy who said, is ketamine in
the class of opioids and what are your thoughts on
(12:44):
Matthew Perry who's on kedemene treatment and he passed away.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Sure, So ketamine is a it is a scheduled drug.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
It's a Class three scheduled drug that is monitored by
the DEA. So in terms of opiates, yes, that's also
a control of something as well. So in order to
be able to provide ketamine, you have to have a
DA license in your clinic hast to be have a
DA license affiliated with the address. So in terms of
Matthew Perry, you know he from from what I've read,
(13:15):
he was receiving ivy kedemy therapy for his addiction or
mental health conditions.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
In terms of where it transitioned from the.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
IV therapy in an appropriate clinical setting to being abused,
I don't know the trajectory in terms of that, but
I do know in terms of the autopsy report, you know,
saying that he died from the clinical effects of kedemine. Well,
his serum concentration of ketymine in his bloodstream was in
the realm of thirty five hundred nanogram from MEALI meter.
(13:48):
And to put into context of what we're doing here
when I'm treating somebody with ketymine, my, the estimated serum
of concentration that I'm doing is anywhere from as low
as one hundred fifty nanograms familiator too at very maximum
three hundred nanagrims familiar.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
So that's that's less than a ten percent amount that
we're giving somebody.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
I mean, this is again in the realm of three thousand,
oh my, and we're we're dealing with less than three
hundred is where I'm calculate. I'm not giving anybody over
that when I calculate that out, so perspective, what he
was doing at home is much much different than.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
What we're doing here.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
And also I just want to reiterate, you know, at
our at my clinic, I find it extremely important that
it's not just me providing the ivy kedemy as an
ear doctor. I also have that a psychiatric borturovite psychiatric
professional working alongside me, which I think is a very
important part. And I don't know specifics again of Matthew Perry,
but if there were any signs that he was addiction
(14:49):
addicted or whatever, and you know, maybe there were signs,
I don't know, but if patients are coming to me
for their addiction treatment. I really want to make sure
that I have also somebody specialized in psychiatry managing these
patients as well with me, so that we can make
sure we're making an informed decision on how to treat
them and that they're safe.
Speaker 3 (15:10):
Yeah, are there any other safety measures that people should
be considerate of or are there resources where they can
get insights on how to identify and find someone to
you know, provide this therapy.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
So unfortunately, because ketamine is not FDA approved for mood
disorders and substances disorders, it kind of makes it a
little bit of the wild West.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
I guess you could say, in terms of how we're
using ketamine right now in the medical bild.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
I think there is research out there that shows quite
amazing benefit. But if it's not in the right hands
or under the right clinic, or however it's.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Managed, it could be it could be dangerous.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
So I think if you're looking to receive ibketemine, you
should go to a place that is either as a
physician or somebody who's trained and knows how to use
ketemine specifically for mood disorders. So there's certifications that providers
can obtain. And also I think it's important that they
have a psychiatric provider either on site or who works
in collaboration with you as the patient, and I think
(16:10):
that's very important. Also, I think it's important that whoever
is giving you I've akedemine is also well versed in
life threatening emergencies, who also have the appropriate equipment at
their office, which just in case there is any sort
of emergency that a professional knows how to use it
and has the appropriate safety measures there. And I think
as a patient, you have every right to ask that
(16:31):
at the clinic and ask that to your potential Keademy
provider when you go, if you go see them.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
Okay, well, I know we touched on it a little
bit earlier in the show, but we have a follow
up question from Sarah olgis Be asking about what does
a typical treatment look like? And we kind of touch
on it, but if you for those who you know,
came in a little late, let's let's go back on that. So,
how does a typical treatment look like? How many sessions
and how often do you need to retreat?
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Okay, So a typical trick is when the patient comes
in for their let's say they're coming up for the
very first treatment of IVA academy.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
We've deemed them appropriate, we've cleared them. They're coming in.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
So the first thing is we place an IV, We
place them on a monitor. We check their blood pressure,
We make sure their heart rate is okay, their auction
levels are okay. Based on their weight that day, what
medications they're on, I calculate the appropriate dose that they
need to get, and I make the infusion here in
(17:29):
the clinic and we start the infusion, hook.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Up to their IV, start the infusion.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
It's forty minutes long, and at the peak of the at.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
The forty minutes is when it stops, is when you're
kind of have your peak feelings. We kind of discussed
the association and all the things that you may feel.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
And then that particular session we repeat at minimums six
times over a two to three week period. And the
reason for that is because ketamine, it builds up certain metabolites.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
And it creates those kind of long lasting changes. So
you do need kind of.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
This loading dose in a short period of time to
create some of those long lasting changes.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Some people do.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Need a maintenance or booster infusion, and that varies from
patient to patient. Sometimes it can be four to six weeks.
It could be months, a year, maybe never. Everybody's a
little bit different, but sometimes there is a booster needed.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
And then and then what are you and I we
talked when we were doing our prep for the for
the for the show. You mentioned some success stories about,
you know, people not using whatever the drug was, whatever
their addictions were, were going away. Can you talk a
little bit about that?
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Yeah, yeah, I mean after Yeah, I had just a
patient the other night say to me and Trish, she's
my nurspectitioner, just that without our treatment, that he thinks
he may not be here with us anymore.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
He was so severely depressed, so severely just not doing well.
And in combination with.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Our team and his in his psychiatrist in the community,
working together, we have just he.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
His his life is I think we saved a life.
I mean, so that's just one story.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
But the treatment is this treatment works if it's done
correctly under the right guidance.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
Yeah. So do people who go through the treatments do
they need to make some lifestyle changes, including those including
those who may have marijuana addiction. What are your recommendations there?
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Yeah, I think I think when somebody is currently in
the midst of their depression or maybe their addiction. It's
difficult to make some of those known wellness elect choices
that we all know, eating right and exercising right.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
So our process is, let's first, let's get.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
You feeling better first, let's kind of mentally make let's
figure out how we can get the depression better or
your addiction symptoms better. After that, once we get to
a place where you your mood might be lifted, then
let's talk about more wellness things.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Let's talk better diet, go.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
To your make sure you're going to your primary care
position to get your basically blood work done, your you know,
annual things done that we all need, exercise.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
And so it's hard. It's sometimes it's hard to make
those recommendations when somebody's kind of down or in the
midst of something negative.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Right, So that's sort of the part of all of this,
that we can make some of these long clasting changes
and then here in the clinic and then recommend some
of those other amazing things after.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Yeah, so I'm just curious how does Kennemine therapy compare
to other forms of addiction treatments.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
So what I think is very fascinating about ketymine is
we give six treatments right over the two or three
week period, and then you're not taking it every day,
so it's not an everyday medicine, which I think is
pretty fascinating.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
So a lot of.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
People who's from addiction or are using pharmacotherapies a lot
of times have to take a daily medicine with it,
right or so, I think what can be very appealing
and very interesting is if you're going to come here
and receive ibkedemy for your sebon c disorder or cannabisy's.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Disorder, and you don't want to just for a place
one medicine with another.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
It's sort of a way to say, hey, we can
give you these treatments and it's not something that you're
gonna have to take every day. You're making actual legitimate
changes in your brain, your brain chemistry and how it
works to sort of live your life a little bit better.
So that's what I like about kindemine therapy.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
I find it very interesting.
Speaker 3 (21:17):
Yeah, I'm just curious to know you mentioned the research earlier.
I'm just curious to know if they're looking at using
this for other conditions, not necessarily substance abuse or depression,
but other things that you know, other medical conditions.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Have you heard some.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Things Parkinson's disease, fibromyalgia, some other types of things are
are being looked at.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
So they're very very interesting topics. Hopefully in the future
will be discovered.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
Yeah, I'm curious to see that too. Let's talk a
little bit about the what's happening here in Florida on
the negative side to some degree. So in Florida, you know,
we've and we talked about this during our pre meeting,
there's been an influx of people overdosing on what's called
pink cocaine, which is a bas of cocaine and ketamine.
(22:09):
How dangerous is using this drug recreationally?
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Well, yeah, so I I did look into this and
actually and maybe if I miss but actually I don't
think it actually has cocaine in it.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
So from what I read, it is a pink substance
that has ketamine. It can have caffeine, and it can
have MDMA, which is also known as eccessne.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
And it mixed in this like wine fine powder, and
they put like a pink dye in it, so it
looks pink, but they it's termed pink cocaine. And I
think the dangerous part about this is if it is
used as a kind of a designer party drug. It's
what it sounds like, and so and these come across
all the year. You know, over the years, there's always
a new sort of designer drug. I guess you could
(22:49):
say that's being abused. So this one in particular might
be sort of dangerous just because cocaine, you know, we
all know it's been used recolationally for years.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
But if somebody's out there recreationally thinking they're about.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
To do something like cocaine, but instead of cocaine, which
does the effects are.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Going to be much different if you are about to receive.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Ketamine and MDMA, right, So you're gonna switch to something
that's just maybe it's a stimulant for a potentially a
psychedelic and it's especially in terms of a female, right,
or you're going to be more at risk for you
not being aware of what's going on, and it can increase, uh,
you know, your cardiovascaclar risk, and so it can be
(23:29):
very dangerous, specially if it's under this name of pink cocaine.
When you're not in cocaine, you're getting a psychedelic essentially,
so it.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Can be it can be pretty dangerous.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
Well, we're seeing an increase in psychedelic use in the
state of Florida. You know, does ketamine have other names
that are associated with it that may be more well
known on the street versus a medical setting.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
Yeah, I mean I have a special K. It's in
cat valium kit kat valuum.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Yeah, because it's I don't know if there's a reason why,
but I'm imagined because it can be in the in
the veterinary sense. Maybe I'm honestly, I just I don't know,
But those are some names I've come across, But special
K I think probably is the most common.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
And and you know, I again, I first heard more
about it on some of the more popular, you know
shows on Netflix and other you know, streaming shows where
they show young people using ketamine, and then of course
the tragedy with Matthew Perry. So I think it's becoming
a lot more known. And what and what are you
seeing in hearing as far as you know, people talking
(24:37):
about it in in the in not only mainstream media,
but just in general. Are you having more people reach
out to you out of curiosity? What do you what
are you seeing in hearing well?
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Interesting?
Speaker 1 (24:47):
I mean, as as an er doctor, interestingly, I probably
have seen an increase or a rise in people coming
into the er after using kenemene in terms of maybe
they use too much of it or whatever. And I
would say, even in my earlier days and my training,
I don't think I ever saw anybody who came in
with an acute kenemine ingestion or overdose or anything like that.
So there's definitely been quite a bit of a surge,
(25:08):
I would say, at least in the er where patients
are abusing ketamine and having some adverse effects from it. Yeah,
I mean, and there's just more talk and that's just
going to happen, I mean, if ketamine is being used
clinically medically safely. Unfortunately, the drug abuse unfortunately is part
of sometimes some of these medically useful drugs, and so
(25:30):
we just have to educate the public on it and
know that there are good treatments treatment uses for it,
but unfortunately there are there are negative too.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
Yeah. So, aside from your website, which has a wealth
of information about kademine therapy, do you have any other
recommendations for where people can get credible information about kennemine
and cheemine therapy.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Yeah, there are some associations.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
There's an association called the Association of Ketymene Providers essentially
is a data is an association which is where you
can you have to get cleared and so you can
be a part of making sure and they make sure
you're at least on a legitimate clinics and being you
can so you can search on that.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
It's a k SPU dot com. You can kind of
search for clinics there and just and you.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Have to be your own own advocate and just I
would recommend finding a clinic that has the safety nets
we discussed, but also a psychiatric safety net as well,
and not just a clinic that just you cohen and
you get your kennemine and leave. There's a lot of
clinics like that that kind of reminds you a little
bit of this opiate crisis esque sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
Right, we all remember that and we don't want that.
We want a place that people can come that's safe,
that's not harm people.
Speaker 3 (26:49):
Yeah, your research.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
About that too, I mean as a patient.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Yeah, well this was very very informative. I mean the
comments in the on the social is just like, this
is so informative. People are getting a lot of good
information here. Do you have any closing thoughts before we
read up this conversation, any any best practices or information
that you'd like to share with our viewers and listeners.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Yes, I just think I just want to just really
reiterate that if you think kenemine is a treatment option
for you, do your own research and what clinic you're
going to go to. I recommend that you go somewhere
that has a either a Bore certified physician or at
least has that backing and has experience with life threatening
(27:31):
emergencies just in the clinic, who has appropriate monitoring equipment
and also has which is also equally important, to have
a psychiatric provider that also provides you with a psychiatric
safety net, because again, you're at a coming to a
place for help, and the last thing we want is
for you to leave Academy clinic worse or you know.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
So that's that's my recommendation.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
All right, well, doctor boy, thank you so much for
being our guest on this Conversations on Cannabis Virtual Form,
brought to you by the Medical Marijuana Education and Research
Initiative at Florida and M University. Thank you to everyone
watching this program. Tell us what you think about this
form by completing the survey posted in the comment boxes
on YouTube and Facebook after this live program. If you
(28:18):
complete the survey, your name will be entered into a
drawing on September fifth, twenty twenty four, to win a
one hundred dollars gift car provided by one of Mary's partners.
We also want to encourage you to go to the
Florida Department of Health Office of Medical Marijuana Use website
to learn how to obtain a legal medical marijuana card
in the state of Florida. We also encourage you to
go to Florida and M University's Merry website to learn
(28:40):
more about this initiative is educational program and additional information
about cannabis use in Florida. Thanks everyone. The views and
opinions of our invited guests are not necessarily the views
and opinions of Florida Agricultural and Mechanical University or the
Medical Marijuana Education Shouldn't Research Initiative.
Popular Podcasts
1. Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
2. Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
3. Crime Junkie
If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people.