September 25, 2025 • 43 mins
How HR is Navigating Compliance, Safety, and Legal Risks
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
From the WA and M Studio on the campus of
Florida A and M University. This is Mary Forum Radio,
a weekly conversation on the education and research of the
medical marijuana being conducted at Muni.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Laid I'm Heini Outweigh, your host for this Conversations on
Cannabis Virtual Form, brought to you by the Medical Marijuana
Education and Research Initiative at Florida and M University. In
this conversation, we're talking about medical cannabis in the workplace
and how employers and employees are navigating compliance, safety, and
(00:35):
legal risk. So let's talk and learn about this subject
with our guests. Nick Hartman is the co founder, managing partner,
and senior consultant at the Drug Screening Compliance Institute. He
brings twenty years of experience building and managing drug free
workplace programs for thousands of employers in the US and abroad.
(01:00):
Welcome to the Forum. Tell us more about yourself.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Thanks very much, Rash. You know I Essentially we focus
on here at DCI everything that's workplaced drug and alcohol
testing compliance related from local, state, federal laws, policy development, review,
internal procedure documentation, general consulting, training, education support, and also
help out on the litigation support side. So it's my
(01:25):
world that I live in every single day.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Thank you for being a guest. And our next guest
is Cheryl Brown Merriweather, Vice president and executive director of
the NET Institute Center for Addiction and Recovery Education. She
is also co chair of the Florida Recovery Friendly Workplace
Coalition Board of Directors. She brings more than twenty five
years of leadership experience in human resources and is nationally
(01:51):
recognized for advancing recovery ready workplace cultures. Cheryl, welcome to
the forum. Tell us more about yourself.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Thank you, Thank you so much for having me. Heidi,
it's a pleasure to be here and to just I'll
begin by saying, I am a person who has lived
experience from my family of origin with substance use disorder
and mental health behavioral challenges. So that led me to
(02:20):
a career of learning about these things which now I
am able to utilize to present information and education through
the roles that I have, mostly working in support of
HR professionals in the workplace. That's been the majority of
my background experience. Also adult education as well as learning
(02:42):
about the disease of substance use, disorder, addiction, and now
recovery support services. So I'm very pleased to have the
opportunity to share with the audience today based upon a
little bit of those things that now are in the
forefront of everyone's attention. Workplace is the new hotspot for
hot topics like the one we're talking about today.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Yes, yes, yes, and I'm looking forward to our discussion.
To everyone watching, please share the link to this form
on your social media channels so others can learn about
this topic. We also want you to tell us what
you think about this forum by completing the survey that
will be posted on Mary's social media pages. Your name
will be entered into a drawing on in October twenty
(03:28):
twenty five to win a one hundred dollars gift card
provided by one of Mary's partners. Now, let's start this
conversation on canabis. So, Cheryl, I'm going to kick it
off with you. Can you provide a brief overview of
how Florida law addresses the use of medical marijuana in
the workplace.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Well, that's a great question to get this conversation started today.
So Florida's medical marijuana law, I think it was passed
back in twenty sixteen, and it was designed to allow
those visuals who need to have use of cannabis for
medicinal purposes, for treatment purposes, to have access to that.
(04:12):
But with respect to the workplace and employers, it does
not obligate employers in the workplace to either number one,
permit the use of cannabis or the possession. And most
of all, they certainly do not allow impairment at work.
So employers, especially those who are drug free workplaces and
(04:35):
have those policies in place, and many do not all,
but many do, particularly workplaces where they have federal contracts
or particularly employees working in safety sensitive roles. You know,
this is a big challenge for them to navigate this.
I guess we could say the bottom line is that
(04:57):
in Florida, employers may continue to enforce their zero tolerance
policies if they have zero tolerance policies in place for
the reasons that I previously mentioned, but they should also
and I'm speaking.
Speaker 4 (05:12):
To the employee, they need to be aware that the
case law is evolving and changing and it may, you know,
require us to look at these things a little differently
in the future.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
But now you know they're basically the law does not
allow possession or use of cannabis for medicinal purposes and
certainly not for recreational purposes in the workplace. It cannot
be impaired while they're working.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
So, Nick hollis Florida unique from the rest of the
nation in this regard.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Yeah, I mean I would consider Florida's medical marijuana to
be employer friendly compared to other states that are out there.
As Cheryl mentioned, Amendment two past in twenty sixteen does
has one line specific to the workplace that says an
employer need not accommodate the use of medical marijuana in
the workplace or any employee working while under the influence
(06:09):
of medical marijuana. But there's two very important words there,
or I should say phrases, the at work phrase and
while working. Those You know, if we had this conversation
five or six years ago, those words didn't hold as
much weight as they do now. And we'll kind of
explain a little bit why as this conversation goes on.
But compared to other states, there are some states that
(06:32):
limit an employer's action just based on someone's status as
a medical marijuana patient. So they prohibit them from discriminating
solely because they are a medical marijuana patient. They some
states limit what an employer can do when they get
a positive drug test for marijuana and someone presents a
medical marijuana card. New York, for example, everybody who's authorized
to use medical cannabis under state law are considered disabled
(06:56):
and thus afforded rights under the state human rights laws.
South Dakota has a medical marijuana law that reads very
similar to Florida. However, there's case law in South Dakota
where the judge essentially said that medical marijuana should be
treated like any other prescribed medication, and we know that
you can't prescribe medical cannabis because it's a Schedule I substance. Today,
(07:21):
there's another state, like Minnesota, has a mandatory drug testing
law where you're not allowed to terminate someone based off
of a positive drug test for the first time. You
have to allow them to go through the opportunity to
get treatment and to return back into the workplace. So
every single state, there's a thirty eight states now that
have different laws out there, they're all differ very slightly.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Yeah, So how should employers handle off duty? So you're
not at work and you're using medical cannabis, And this
kind of aligns with that case here in Florida where
there was a paramedic who was disciplined even though there
was no evidence of physical impairment he was tested. So
how should employee scandal off duty medical marijuana use.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
I'm glad you asked that because it's a very complicated
issue and it's changing very rapidly as far as what
advice is provided to that question, right, what answer we have?
So you mentioned the twenty nineteen case out of Thalsborough County.
The medic that was selected for a random drug test,
they went and provided their yearine specimen and it came
back positive for marijuana cannabis, and that individual provided a
(08:26):
medical marijuana authorization card under Florida law or Florida authority.
The county took adverse employment action and terminated the employee.
The employee, of course, went and hired a lawyer, filed
a suit, tried to find protections under the state medical
marijuana law. In that case, they actually did not afford
(08:46):
any rights under the medical marijuana law, but found a
disability discrimination aspect of it. This guy apparently had PTSD
from his job using medical cannabis. To treat that PTSD
this job related. So the core kind of went back
to what I was saying earlier, were while at work
or under the influence while on duty. That's where it
(09:07):
became a huge crutch, and in this case, the employee
won because the employer was unable to show that that
use was while at work or that person was under
the influence while at work. Now, I don't want to
take up the whole time here, but typically employers are
using urine as the preferred specimen method for workplace drug testing.
(09:27):
It's very very common, i'd say the majority you're out
there with marijuana, cannabis. We're learning that the detection time
period in urine could be several days up to several
weeks since the last time one used, So you're not
able to correlate use while at work or recent use
or under the influence, and that's where the challenge is. Right.
(09:47):
We're going to talk about some solutions a little bit later,
but oral fluid drug testing, just by example, shortens that
detection time period down to a matter of hours compared
to a days. So there are some solutions that we
want to make sure we p but employers have to
be aware that even though the legal language was in there,
it was interpreted by the courts a little bit differently
the tent of the law, which obviously is incredibly impactful
(10:10):
to Florida employers.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Yeah, Cheryl, what's your perspective on that? I, first of
all have to say I just love sharing a platform
with Nick. He just compliments so well and covers many
of the things that I could say as an HR practitioner.
But we balance one another off because one of the
things I focus on when I talk about this subject
(10:32):
is what is happening in the work place with respect
to the need for individuals to feel that they need
accommodations for things like this so that they are off hours,
sometimes utilizing these substances not prescribed obviously, but under the
direction of a physician to alleviate anxiety or stress or
(10:57):
in some cases sadly, suicide ideation. The workplace is just
very disrupted these days. It's always been some challenges there,
but in terms of workplace, many employees will relate some
of their stress and anxiety and need for support to
things that they are experiencing in the workplace, and this
(11:19):
Hillsborough case represents that. We talk about first responders. We
talk about medical professionals, those who are on the front
line many times of human suffering, we forget that they
themselves are humans and they themselves need support. So the
issue of medical marijuana, I believe we are going to
(11:40):
see more cases where you know, employers have to deal
with this, have to find solutions that work for all
stakeholders within what is allowable within the law, but at
the same time balancing those where we have the opportunity
to do them so for the well being of the
employee and those that are otherwise supported by the work that's.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Done in the workplace. Yeah, social employees tell their employer
or potential employer that they are using medical marijuana legally,
especially if they're in an environment where they may be
drug tested.
Speaker 3 (12:17):
Well. Again, and that's a perfect segue to talk about
relationships and workplace culture. You know, if the law is
clear as it is with particularly with respect to certain
important positions relative to safety or you know, Department of
Transportation mandated employment opportunities, would you voluntarily raise your hand
(12:42):
and say, too, an HR practitioner who may not be
up on current law with respect to these things, that
I am under the care of a licensed physician who
is supporting me by providing this accommodation to me, if
you will outside of the workplace, And I would say
tread very carefully, in large part because HR practitioners are
(13:08):
still learning about this marijuana in terms of we know
about recreational use. We absolutely have zero tolerance for that,
but they're not clear yet about what the law says. Again,
so would I voluntarily do that? Many employees do not
feel safe to do so. Many employees, however, if they
(13:31):
do have a comfortable, safe relationship with their employer where
they do not feel that they would be disciplined, but
could have a conversation about the need for accommodation outside
of the workplace, that is something that they may do.
But I honestly say it typically only comes up now
(13:52):
as in response to and I'll say, reactive to a
workplace accident, an incident, and then there's a reasonable suspicion
until the employer would engage at that point with the
employee around the circumstances that could have contributed to or
led to the incident. But absent that, very few employers
(14:16):
will ask about that, and very few employees will willingly
share that because there's not a safety factor that they
feel they have in terms of their relationship with their manager, supervisor,
or human resources professionals, such that they would volunteer that
information without feeling that they have the ability to do
(14:40):
so without suffering negative consequences.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Nick, Yeah, I would agree. It's a slippery slope, right.
I think outside of you know, you got to kind
of break it up with federal law and state law.
If you're in a federally regulated position and department of
transportation where safety is paramount, employers have to continue to
screen for marijuana and implement discipline appropriately. On the non
(15:06):
regulated side, it's up to the employer's private authority as
to how they handle these things. So I completely agree
with Cheryl it's a slippery slope if you're in a
safety sensitive position. Though as an employee, there's a little
bit of an obligation I think you have there to
make sure that you're showing up as your best self.
You're not going to be a problem or to that
employer or to the general public in any way.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
Can you define safety sensitive jobs for those who may
not be familiar with that term, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
I mean safety sensitive is really where you're performing a
job function that could injure or cause damage to company
property or the general public, or whatever the case might be.
So it's important to again distinct those employees. Like, if,
by example, you have a warehouse operation, you can't just
(15:54):
say that everybody in the warehouse is a safety sensitive employee.
You have to go to your job descriptions, make sure
that you have comprehensive, documented job descriptions that explain what
the different job functions are for the different employee segments
that you have. Like you're going to have someone that's
operating a forklift, I think, quite frankly, you're going to
designate to them easily as safety sensitive because they're handling
(16:15):
something that could go wrong if they're impaired. However, somebody
at the reception desk or somebody in the administrative staff
who may just be on the computer all day long,
they're going to have far less safety adverse consequences. So
making sure that you have comprehensive job descriptions documented will
save you not if, but when you're ever challenged in
the court to designate as such.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Yeah, so you both talked about how cannabis laws are
evolving right across the country and even here in Florida,
we have some new laws that are being passed. So
how often should employers review and update their drug free
workplace policies to keep up with all these changes?
Speaker 3 (16:55):
How what you want to take that, Nick, go for it,
sure if you want? Okay, So I would say on
a regular basis, no less than one a year the policies,
and this applies to across the board policies. They should
be treated as living documents. It's not a one and
done type of situation. But particularly you've heard us mentioned
(17:18):
in our talk today already about the complexity of laws
with respect to employers. I mean there are small, medium,
large size employers and multi state employers. So if you
are a multi state employer, for example, and you heard
Nick kind of run through, this is what's going on
in this state and that state. And it can also
(17:39):
vary depending upon your talking recreational or medicinal use of marijuana.
So HR practitioners have to be intentional about reviewing their policies,
recognizing that this is a constantly evolving landscape because of
many of the court cases that are working through not
(18:00):
only at the state level, but there's ongoing continuous conversations
at the federal level as well around declassification or decriminalization
or reclassification of cannabis in general, not just in the workplace.
So that said, you know this is yes, this is
(18:21):
about compliance and it is about risk management, and it
is about you know, protecting not only the workplace but
the workforce so that the goal is to retain our
talented employees. So how do we do so we as
HR practitioners have to stay current, have to follow, and
(18:42):
have to be intentional in updating those policies, which brings
us back to it has to be a living document
that we are at least no less than I would
say once a year reviewing them and reviewing them in
partnership with legal counsel and other professionals who can guide
us in terms of what the best policy is that
(19:04):
is going to protect all of those stakeholders that I've mentioned,
the workforce as well as the workplace from the underlying
litigation which is sure to come, not if, but definitely
will come for this area as of law, as it
does with so many others.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Nick, did you want to add to that?
Speaker 1 (19:25):
I mean, I mean, Cheryl said it beautifully. I mean
it should be an annual requirement at the very least,
just to give you an idea. Here at DSCI, we
track bills from the minute they're born to this as
it go through the legal process and then eventually either
die or or become law, and then we of course
interpret with those with the rule language of the law
is and how they impact employer workplace programs, and then
(19:45):
we provide guidance. We're tracking right now three hundred and
twenty two active cannabis bills and that number fluctuates by
the week. Now, again, the more enjority of these die
before they ever see the day in the light of day.
But these are laws that can impact what employers can
or can't do, So you have to stay on top
of it again at least an annual requirement, and then
(20:07):
make sure you have a resource that keeps you in
tune when these laws change and it can help you
decipher what actions need to happen at your workplace and
how it impacts your program.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Well, you just brought something that's really interesting. You said resource.
Can you all provide to our HR employer's employees who
are listening what resources are available for them to kind
of stay up to date if at all possible.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Yeah, I could recommend, obviously, as Cheryl mentioned, illegal resource,
whether you have in house council, outside council, or if
you have a compliance partner in this space, maybe a TPA,
a third party administrator that's helping you out administering your
drug testing program. Certainly, US at DSCI, where we focus
on this stuff all day long, are happy to provide
state specific guidance and resources, consulting, training, all the rest.
(20:53):
But it's utilizing those out there that focus on this
type of stuff so that you can continue wearing the
Mani hats to you wear, but still get the information
and strategies that you need to be successful.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Hey, Cheryl, did you have any resources And we're going
to put both of your contact information in the social
media comments so people can reach out to you. Cheryl,
any resources that you recommend from HR exactly. And one
of the things you've heard me mentioned is talk about
recovery ready workplaces and recovery friendly workplaces. Now, briefly, I'll
just say the model that that is based upon is
(21:29):
intended to bring together in the workplace for the benefit.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
Of the workforce, and that includes managers and leaders and
others a connection with resources that are available in their
local community that they may not know of or have
never considered building relationships with to provide education and support. Again,
not only to the HR practitioners or those who are
(21:57):
administering the policies, but let's educate the entire work force
about these ideally so that we can get ahead of problems.
Typically in the workplace, these issues get the most attention
when there's been an accident or an incident, something has happened.
But when that happens, we're reacting, we're engaging in response
(22:20):
to something that has occurred. It is our belief, through
the recovery ready, recovery friendly workplace model, that we can
engage individuals further upstream, if you will, in creating conversations
where folks can be curious about these things, where they
can learn about these things, where that they will have
(22:41):
the opportunity to modify their choices, their decisions, their thinking
about certain things without having to be forced to do
so or uncomfortably positioned to do so because they fear
that their job may be at risk. There's so many
resources available in the community and beyond. People don't know
(23:05):
who they are, they where they are, how to access them,
how to resource connect with those resources. But if we
can bridge those gaps through education such as we're doing today,
it really helps individuals help themselves and their co workers,
and by extension, others learn about these things and be
(23:26):
more proactive as opposed to reactive and getting the support
that they need to address these things.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
Thank you Cheryl on that one. And nigol And asks
you how do policies differ for remote employees versus those
who are on site?
Speaker 1 (23:42):
It's an incredibly hot topic that keeps our phones ringing
off the hook. I mean, you saw the shift during COVID,
and even before that, we're employers were utilizing remote workforces.
I think it's a great concept, right, but how do
you manage that employee that's off site, that's not under
your direct supervision. Sample one of our clients called us
(24:02):
because they were on a gigantic team meeting. They had
all their team on a zoom caller something similar, and
in the background, one of their employees on the dining
room table had a bomb and it was emitting smoke.
So you, as an HR specialist, a DER designate, an
employer representative, how do you handle that situation where typically
if they're right in front of you in the workplace,
(24:24):
you can make that observation. You can see if there's
signs and symptoms of suspected substance use and then take
adverse employer or go through that process of getting them
tested in et cetera. How do you do that From
a remote aspect, do you send a manager out to
their location. Do you hire a drug screen collector pay
them one hundred and fifty bucks to go out there
and do a collection. It's incredibly challenging to handle that.
(24:48):
From a policy perspective, you can no longer have a
nationwide zero tolerance policy. We run into clients all the
time and say, hey, I have this policy that covers
coast to coast, and I put my hand in my face.
I mean, it's like you're litigation target if you have
one of those today. Because of the thirty one states
that have mandatory drug testing laws, all the different states
(25:09):
that authorize the adult use or medical use of cannabis,
it complicates things. So what we recommend to rap this
is to have a core company policy, essentially your kitchen
sink of what you wish, what your desires are for
your screening program, and then address state and municipal issues
by state policy adenda or even federal rules as well,
so that those employees in those areas throughout the country
(25:31):
know exactly what the rules are and requirements of them,
and for you as an employer and your management staff
to understand what the rules are that they are enforcing.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Jure, how do you all keep that information front and center?
How would an employer keep that front and center? Other
than again, you know, telling the employee when they on
board them or like once they're involved in the workforce,
how do you remind them of this? And again, I
don't mean to repeat myself, but I think it's so important.
We're really at a cross world and are at a
(26:02):
time when we are trying to change workplace culture around
these topics. It's not helpful to just be in a
gotcha kind of mode of operation where we're constantly scanning
and looking for violations of our company policies.
Speaker 3 (26:17):
You know, I do a lot of training with HR practitioners,
and their number one question to me is how do
you identify signs and symptoms of employees who are misusing substances?
And we really have to work to change the thing
about that particularly. We just spoke about remote employees, how
(26:38):
do you smell or you know, see what the eyes
look like, or the traditional signs and symptoms that we
were taught to look for. It's almost impossible to view
those now when people so many people in different positions
are working remotely. So but at the same time, we
still have drug free policies, EERO tolerance policy. So how
(27:01):
do we address that. I come back to changing the
workplace culture so that we provide ongoing education not only
for the employers, but for all employees as well. You know,
we talk about poly drug use. People don't always realize this,
(27:21):
but some of the same signs and symptoms that HR
practitioners have been trained to look for could be manifest
from combinations of other substances or drugs that are legally
prescribed for other conditions. If an employee has worked too
many shifts overnight and tried to balance personal needs with childcare,
(27:46):
with jobs and going to school, that employee may exhibit
behaviors as one who would perceive that they are under
the influence of some substance. So, yes, we have have
to talk about signs and symptoms and reasonable suspicion in
all of those things. But let's also create opportunities to
(28:08):
have conversations that are safe, where we just share information
so that it motivates people to be more willing to
disclose if they are having challenges with a particular substance,
if they are using a particular substance sleep medication, for example,
or medically prescribed or medically authorized use of cannabis. Let's
(28:33):
create a workplace culture through education where we can have
these conversations so that we get ahead of the curve
and we're proactive as opposed to always reactive and always
looking to play the gotcha game. Nobody wins in those situations.
We just want to make sure people understand the need
(28:55):
for compliance. The concerns around risk management, live ability, all
those things are vitally important. But at the same time,
we're working with humans, people who need the support. So
let's talk about what might be going on with that
individual and how we can work together to access resources
(29:15):
make those available at all stages of progression along this
particular continuum of care.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
Yeah, Nick, you want to add anything to that, I
think it's absolutely right. I mean, drug testing used to
be a gotcha program, or at least I mean that's
what it started off. As you know, you're detecting the
subs and illial substance that sh That's definitely got to
shift these days. And as as Cheryl mentioned, I mean,
the cost of we all know the cost of hiring
an employee is incredibly more significant than retaining a good employee.
(29:46):
So get creative, bring some humanism to it. Consider second
chance agreements, consider reasonable accommodations, consider other alternatives that you
can find a strike a balance I guess for an
employer's rights and employee.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Rights, Nick, have you seen any best practices where drug
testing is done that's compliant and more supportive of the employee.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Yeah? Absolutely. I mean, we deal with thousands of clients,
as you mentioned here in the US and abroad. We
have one client that's one of the largest hospitality companies
in the world, and they had an issue, a bit
gigantic work comp issue, a lot of slip and falls
coming in a lot of well I digress on that,
but they were having a financial hit that they need.
(30:30):
They contacted us, say how can you help us? And
we evaluated their program from top down, right, they weren't
testing pre higher they and hospitality you're in very safety
sensitive environments. And then there was a pattern of work
comp claims from different injuries, et cetera, which was it
was a significant payout for them, right, So we came
in and we implemented a policy with both pre hire
(30:53):
and post higher testing, and made sure that we took
into consideration the state laws that are there any limitations
both on testing and discipline, and made sure that every
single manager and supervisor in their organization was trained on
how to properly recognize the signs and symptoms of workplace
substance use or potential impairment. Train them on what the
(31:16):
rules are of their policy and the procedures that complement
that policy. And then I talk to them about oral
fluid drug testing, which we haven't really talked about here,
but has a shorter detection time period specifically for cannabis use,
but for all drugs use. And then also implementing second
chance agreements again or reasonable accommodations for those employees that
(31:37):
do test positive. You know, you don't automatically need to
terminate them, You may be able to reasonably accommodate them
in a non safety sensitive role or provide them a
second chance agreement where they understand the rules and they're
signing that if everything, anything should happen again, then they're out.
So that's you know, it's not going to fit for everybody,
but it's kind of a blueprint that can be repeated,
(31:57):
I think across the world.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
There.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Yeah, we spent a lot of time talking about medical
cannabis use, but I want to kind of shift to
talk about CBD products. So like the gummy edibles and
all of those things that you know here in Florida,
you can find them in a convenience store and you
don't even need a medical marijuana car to get it.
So what are you seeing when it comes to people
who may be using CBD edibles which have some levels
(32:23):
of THC of them? Even where you look at how
are employers dealing with those scenarios where the employee is
using CPU.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
It's incredibly dangerous. Right now, you have the Delta eight's,
you have the Delta tens, you have the Delta four
hundred and twenty whatever they're going to create next, right,
and there's cannabi dial which is CBD, but there's also
hemp derived products, which is what you're seeing on the
shows in states that don't allow adult use of cannabis
or medical use of cannabis. So it's a very slippery
(32:54):
slope and in some states it's outright decriminal or excuse me,
illegal criminal penalties, where other states it's not. You can
get it on the world Wide Web, you can get
it shipped to you and deliver it to you can
go find it at the local smoke shop or drug stores.
This is my advice. There is absolutely a lack of
oversight in the manufacturing process of these chemical or these products.
(33:17):
I should say, there's all kinds of case law that's
already being established where one big one as a trucker
who was using a product, a very common or very
popular product, and it was a cannabi dill product that
said it was pure CBD. Well, he got tested in
a random drug test under federal law, tested positive for marijuana,
(33:39):
lost his job. He turned around and sued the product
manufacturer because they found out during independent testing that that
product contained one thousand and five percent more THC than
what's advertised on the product container. Wow, that's incredible, right,
So there's lack of no FDA oversight, very lack of
quality control. What we typically advise our clients to write
(34:01):
it into policy and also advise employees that if their
life likelihood could be jeopardized by them testing positive for marijuana,
whether regarding their use of cannabdil products or not. It's
buyer beware.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Yep, yeah, Cheryl, you going to add anything to that?
Speaker 3 (34:17):
Well? To me, this is a topic that with respect
to the workplace, again, this is where education is key.
Many people just have no clue even what CBD stands for.
What it is, Believe it or not. It's in a lotion,
it's in a cream, someone gave it to them as
a gift. They may not even realize that the underlying
(34:41):
element is that makes that so popular these days. So
we have been partnering with health and wellness professionals and
practitioners in many cases to utilize their platform that they
already have within the workplace to bring in and introduce
conversation lectures around this topic to talk about CBD. We're
(35:05):
looking for any way we can to create a conversation
for those who may be curious or may just not
even know this is a thing that could potentially cause
them harm. Everything that Nick said is absolutely true. How
do we educate people about that? If it comes through
the HR door. Sometimes there's a wall built up from
(35:27):
the beginning that the employees are not going to be
privy to that information or may not be receptive to it.
If there's conversations that are held through safety committees or
those types of things, well, then the folks who are
responsible for risk management and safety would talk about that.
I don't know that they would talk about CBD in
(35:48):
that type of setting. But if we've got existing wellness programs,
health and wellness programs, health and wellness fairs, different months
we celebrate different things, suicide awareness, mental health, you know,
recovery month. There are so many opportunities if we partner
with existing programs to introduce five minute conversations bringing a
(36:11):
subject matter expert to talk about things like CBD that
otherwise individuals would not have the opportunity to even learn
about or ask questions about, and as it relates to
how that can potentially impact your job with our company.
And so that's what we want to balance the compliance
(36:34):
with the education at GET in any way we can,
especially through existing programs that create the opportunity, yes, managers
and supervisors but also frontline employees to learn about this thing,
then they can work together to come up with solutions
that benefit all.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
Yeah, Well that was really, really, really well said, and
we've covered almost everything we wanted to talk about today,
and I want to give you both an opportunity to
just share some closing thoughts or some resources, or just
one nuggative insight that we didn't touch on that you
would love for our listeners and viewers to hear from
today's program.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Nick, you want to go ahead for me, Yeah, I'll
just say that. Look, this is a very rapidly changing
legal landscape and practical landscape for HR employers. I mean,
there's no methodology, there's no device, there's no per se
limit that can determine if someone's under the influence or
used cannabis right now or recently. Right the only tool
that's out there that exists today that we would recommend
(37:31):
is looking into oral fluid or saliva drug testing. Saliva
drug testing oral fluid testing has been used in our
nation's workforces for over a decade, and actually the Department
of Transportation recently approved oral fluid testing for dot federally
regulated testing programs. Well, I'll make a note that that's
all on hold right now until they get the labs
and the product of the screening devices set up. It
(37:53):
vouched for the science of oral fluid testing to be
that of or better than testing via urine, and that
shrinks that testing time period detection time period down to
about a matter of hours versus several days or several weeks,
so you get more of as the best product you
can use, I guess, or best methodology you can use
to determine recent usage usage. So that's just something to
(38:16):
look into again. And as Cheryl mentioned earlier, you don't
know what that impairment is. Someone could have been had
a late night with a sick child or whatever, and
they're coming in they're all discombobulated. It doesn't mean they're
under the influence of something, but they still could potentially
be impaired. So look into the screening methodologies and stay
up today with state laws is all I can really are.
Speaker 3 (38:39):
Composing thoughts well, I just want to always encourage folks
to be curious and continue to learn, regardless of their
role in the organization. We talked to C suite executives.
They have a different area of focus than the frontline
employees HR practitioners. In many cases, you may have an
employee company that has and HR department of one They're
(39:02):
typically going to be very overwhelmed with just meeting the
regular needs of their role. So how do we address
topics like this which are so very important. I've seen
large organizations like Oracle with eighty five thousand employees put
new programs in place to provide education for all employees
(39:24):
because of the incentive of one individual that was affected
by the issue. So programs like this that go out
that may be heard by senior leaders, HR practitioners, safety
compliance managers, frontline workers. We want all of you to
know there are so many new programs in place, new
(39:47):
organizations of collaboration and cooperation working together to educate about
these initiatives, so that individuals who are affected by it,
who may be struggling with pay management, who may be
struggling with whatever life has brought their way, we talk
about post traumatic stress disorder, those topics are now being explored,
(40:10):
and how do we talk about those safely in the workplace.
It comes down to a workplace culture thing, and the
culture can be changed by one individual who has a
passion to learn more and share what they learn with others.
Recovery friendly workplace provides that model. Recovery ready workplaces if
(40:31):
folks want to learn more about that, please let us know.
Just as Nick specializes and being our good partner to
help those who need to know about the intricacies of
liability and litigation and laws in all fifty states, we
also want to balance that equally with this focus on
(40:51):
the human and human resources, the individuals that make up
the work force, so that we can have a work
place that cares for and meets the needs of all stakeholders.
It's a great partnership, a great collaboration, a great cooperative
spirit around finding solutions and I'm just so honored to
(41:13):
be able to speak about those today as a part
of this panel. Thank you for the invitation.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
Beautifully said Cheryl beautifully said it. And if I can
make one more suggestion, Hei you reach out to your
association groups out there, whether it's HR association groups again,
you guys are all in the same thing, tank together
to deal with the same issues, right or. The National
Drug and Alcohol Screening Association in DESA and SAPPA is
another drug testing specific industry association. Plenty of information and
(41:41):
content and guidance from the professionals that deal with the issue.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
Yeah, will share them with the in the comment boxes.
On the social media ahead.
Speaker 3 (41:55):
He reminded me, the National Safety Council has just been
named a National Recovery Friendly Workplace, so, and the Human
Resource Certification Institute is a nationally certified recovery friendly workplace.
So you are going to hear more about how we
address these issues proactively and support employees over the long
(42:18):
term of the continuum of care from credible, reputable organizations
such as these that we've spoken to you about today.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
All Right, well, Nick and Cheryl, thank you both for
being guests on this Conversations on Cannabis virtual form brought
to you by the Medical Marijuana Education and Research Initiative
at Florida and M University. Thank you to everyone watching
this program. Tell us what you think about this form
by completing the survey posted in the comment boxes on
Mary's social media pages. If you complete the survey, your
(42:48):
name will be entered into a drawing in October twenty
twenty five to win a one hundred dollars gift car
provided by one of Mary's partners. We also want to
encourage you to go to the Florida Department of Health
Office Medical Marijuana Use website to learn how to obtain
a legal medical marijuana card in the state of Florida.
We also encourage you to go to Florida and M
(43:09):
University's Merry website to learn more about this initiative, its
educational programs, and about cannabis use in Florida. Thanks everyone.
Speaker 3 (43:22):
The views and opinions of our invited guests are not
necessarily the views and opinions of Florida Agricultural and Mechanical
University or the medical Marijuana Education and Research Initiative.
From the WA and M Studio on the campus of
Florida A and M University. This is Mary Forum Radio,
a weekly conversation on the education and research of the
medical marijuana being conducted at Muni.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Laid I'm Heini Outweigh, your host for this Conversations on
Cannabis Virtual Form, brought to you by the Medical Marijuana
Education and Research Initiative at Florida and M University. In
this conversation, we're talking about medical cannabis in the workplace
and how employers and employees are navigating compliance, safety, and
(00:35):
legal risk. So let's talk and learn about this subject
with our guests. Nick Hartman is the co founder, managing partner,
and senior consultant at the Drug Screening Compliance Institute. He
brings twenty years of experience building and managing drug free
workplace programs for thousands of employers in the US and abroad.
(01:00):
Welcome to the Forum. Tell us more about yourself.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Thanks very much, Rash. You know I Essentially we focus
on here at DCI everything that's workplaced drug and alcohol
testing compliance related from local, state, federal laws, policy development, review,
internal procedure documentation, general consulting, training, education support, and also
help out on the litigation support side. So it's my
(01:25):
world that I live in every single day.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Thank you for being a guest. And our next guest
is Cheryl Brown Merriweather, Vice president and executive director of
the NET Institute Center for Addiction and Recovery Education. She
is also co chair of the Florida Recovery Friendly Workplace
Coalition Board of Directors. She brings more than twenty five
years of leadership experience in human resources and is nationally
(01:51):
recognized for advancing recovery ready workplace cultures. Cheryl, welcome to
the forum. Tell us more about yourself.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Thank you, Thank you so much for having me. Heidi,
it's a pleasure to be here and to just I'll
begin by saying, I am a person who has lived
experience from my family of origin with substance use disorder
and mental health behavioral challenges. So that led me to
(02:20):
a career of learning about these things which now I
am able to utilize to present information and education through
the roles that I have, mostly working in support of
HR professionals in the workplace. That's been the majority of
my background experience. Also adult education as well as learning
(02:42):
about the disease of substance use, disorder, addiction, and now
recovery support services. So I'm very pleased to have the
opportunity to share with the audience today based upon a
little bit of those things that now are in the
forefront of everyone's attention. Workplace is the new hotspot for
hot topics like the one we're talking about today.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Yes, yes, yes, and I'm looking forward to our discussion.
To everyone watching, please share the link to this form
on your social media channels so others can learn about
this topic. We also want you to tell us what
you think about this forum by completing the survey that
will be posted on Mary's social media pages. Your name
will be entered into a drawing on in October twenty
(03:28):
twenty five to win a one hundred dollars gift card
provided by one of Mary's partners. Now, let's start this
conversation on canabis. So, Cheryl, I'm going to kick it
off with you. Can you provide a brief overview of
how Florida law addresses the use of medical marijuana in
the workplace.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Well, that's a great question to get this conversation started today.
So Florida's medical marijuana law, I think it was passed
back in twenty sixteen, and it was designed to allow
those visuals who need to have use of cannabis for
medicinal purposes, for treatment purposes, to have access to that.
(04:12):
But with respect to the workplace and employers, it does
not obligate employers in the workplace to either number one,
permit the use of cannabis or the possession. And most
of all, they certainly do not allow impairment at work.
So employers, especially those who are drug free workplaces and
(04:35):
have those policies in place, and many do not all,
but many do, particularly workplaces where they have federal contracts
or particularly employees working in safety sensitive roles. You know,
this is a big challenge for them to navigate this.
I guess we could say the bottom line is that
(04:57):
in Florida, employers may continue to enforce their zero tolerance
policies if they have zero tolerance policies in place for
the reasons that I previously mentioned, but they should also
and I'm speaking.
Speaker 4 (05:12):
To the employee, they need to be aware that the
case law is evolving and changing and it may, you know,
require us to look at these things a little differently
in the future.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
But now you know they're basically the law does not
allow possession or use of cannabis for medicinal purposes and
certainly not for recreational purposes in the workplace. It cannot
be impaired while they're working.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
So, Nick hollis Florida unique from the rest of the
nation in this regard.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Yeah, I mean I would consider Florida's medical marijuana to
be employer friendly compared to other states that are out there.
As Cheryl mentioned, Amendment two past in twenty sixteen does
has one line specific to the workplace that says an
employer need not accommodate the use of medical marijuana in
the workplace or any employee working while under the influence
(06:09):
of medical marijuana. But there's two very important words there,
or I should say phrases, the at work phrase and
while working. Those You know, if we had this conversation
five or six years ago, those words didn't hold as
much weight as they do now. And we'll kind of
explain a little bit why as this conversation goes on.
But compared to other states, there are some states that
(06:32):
limit an employer's action just based on someone's status as
a medical marijuana patient. So they prohibit them from discriminating
solely because they are a medical marijuana patient. They some
states limit what an employer can do when they get
a positive drug test for marijuana and someone presents a
medical marijuana card. New York, for example, everybody who's authorized
to use medical cannabis under state law are considered disabled
(06:56):
and thus afforded rights under the state human rights laws.
South Dakota has a medical marijuana law that reads very
similar to Florida. However, there's case law in South Dakota
where the judge essentially said that medical marijuana should be
treated like any other prescribed medication, and we know that
you can't prescribe medical cannabis because it's a Schedule I substance. Today,
(07:21):
there's another state, like Minnesota, has a mandatory drug testing
law where you're not allowed to terminate someone based off
of a positive drug test for the first time. You
have to allow them to go through the opportunity to
get treatment and to return back into the workplace. So
every single state, there's a thirty eight states now that
have different laws out there, they're all differ very slightly.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Yeah, So how should employers handle off duty? So you're
not at work and you're using medical cannabis, And this
kind of aligns with that case here in Florida where
there was a paramedic who was disciplined even though there
was no evidence of physical impairment he was tested. So
how should employee scandal off duty medical marijuana use.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
I'm glad you asked that because it's a very complicated
issue and it's changing very rapidly as far as what
advice is provided to that question, right, what answer we have?
So you mentioned the twenty nineteen case out of Thalsborough County.
The medic that was selected for a random drug test,
they went and provided their yearine specimen and it came
back positive for marijuana cannabis, and that individual provided a
(08:26):
medical marijuana authorization card under Florida law or Florida authority.
The county took adverse employment action and terminated the employee.
The employee, of course, went and hired a lawyer, filed
a suit, tried to find protections under the state medical
marijuana law. In that case, they actually did not afford
(08:46):
any rights under the medical marijuana law, but found a
disability discrimination aspect of it. This guy apparently had PTSD
from his job using medical cannabis. To treat that PTSD
this job related. So the core kind of went back
to what I was saying earlier, were while at work
or under the influence while on duty. That's where it
(09:07):
became a huge crutch, and in this case, the employee
won because the employer was unable to show that that
use was while at work or that person was under
the influence while at work. Now, I don't want to
take up the whole time here, but typically employers are
using urine as the preferred specimen method for workplace drug testing.
(09:27):
It's very very common, i'd say the majority you're out
there with marijuana, cannabis. We're learning that the detection time
period in urine could be several days up to several
weeks since the last time one used, So you're not
able to correlate use while at work or recent use
or under the influence, and that's where the challenge is. Right.
(09:47):
We're going to talk about some solutions a little bit later,
but oral fluid drug testing, just by example, shortens that
detection time period down to a matter of hours compared
to a days. So there are some solutions that we
want to make sure we p but employers have to
be aware that even though the legal language was in there,
it was interpreted by the courts a little bit differently
the tent of the law, which obviously is incredibly impactful
(10:10):
to Florida employers.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Yeah, Cheryl, what's your perspective on that? I, first of
all have to say I just love sharing a platform
with Nick. He just compliments so well and covers many
of the things that I could say as an HR practitioner.
But we balance one another off because one of the
things I focus on when I talk about this subject
(10:32):
is what is happening in the work place with respect
to the need for individuals to feel that they need
accommodations for things like this so that they are off hours,
sometimes utilizing these substances not prescribed obviously, but under the
direction of a physician to alleviate anxiety or stress or
(10:57):
in some cases sadly, suicide ideation. The workplace is just
very disrupted these days. It's always been some challenges there,
but in terms of workplace, many employees will relate some
of their stress and anxiety and need for support to
things that they are experiencing in the workplace, and this
(11:19):
Hillsborough case represents that. We talk about first responders. We
talk about medical professionals, those who are on the front
line many times of human suffering, we forget that they
themselves are humans and they themselves need support. So the
issue of medical marijuana, I believe we are going to
(11:40):
see more cases where you know, employers have to deal
with this, have to find solutions that work for all
stakeholders within what is allowable within the law, but at
the same time balancing those where we have the opportunity
to do them so for the well being of the
employee and those that are otherwise supported by the work that's.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Done in the workplace. Yeah, social employees tell their employer
or potential employer that they are using medical marijuana legally,
especially if they're in an environment where they may be
drug tested.
Speaker 3 (12:17):
Well. Again, and that's a perfect segue to talk about
relationships and workplace culture. You know, if the law is
clear as it is with particularly with respect to certain
important positions relative to safety or you know, Department of
Transportation mandated employment opportunities, would you voluntarily raise your hand
(12:42):
and say, too, an HR practitioner who may not be
up on current law with respect to these things, that
I am under the care of a licensed physician who
is supporting me by providing this accommodation to me, if
you will outside of the workplace, And I would say
tread very carefully, in large part because HR practitioners are
(13:08):
still learning about this marijuana in terms of we know
about recreational use. We absolutely have zero tolerance for that,
but they're not clear yet about what the law says. Again,
so would I voluntarily do that? Many employees do not
feel safe to do so. Many employees, however, if they
(13:31):
do have a comfortable, safe relationship with their employer where
they do not feel that they would be disciplined, but
could have a conversation about the need for accommodation outside
of the workplace, that is something that they may do.
But I honestly say it typically only comes up now
(13:52):
as in response to and I'll say, reactive to a
workplace accident, an incident, and then there's a reasonable suspicion
until the employer would engage at that point with the
employee around the circumstances that could have contributed to or
led to the incident. But absent that, very few employers
(14:16):
will ask about that, and very few employees will willingly
share that because there's not a safety factor that they
feel they have in terms of their relationship with their manager, supervisor,
or human resources professionals, such that they would volunteer that
information without feeling that they have the ability to do
(14:40):
so without suffering negative consequences.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Nick, Yeah, I would agree. It's a slippery slope, right.
I think outside of you know, you got to kind
of break it up with federal law and state law.
If you're in a federally regulated position and department of
transportation where safety is paramount, employers have to continue to
screen for marijuana and implement discipline appropriately. On the non
(15:06):
regulated side, it's up to the employer's private authority as
to how they handle these things. So I completely agree
with Cheryl it's a slippery slope if you're in a
safety sensitive position. Though as an employee, there's a little
bit of an obligation I think you have there to
make sure that you're showing up as your best self.
You're not going to be a problem or to that
employer or to the general public in any way.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
Can you define safety sensitive jobs for those who may
not be familiar with that term, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
I mean safety sensitive is really where you're performing a
job function that could injure or cause damage to company
property or the general public, or whatever the case might be.
So it's important to again distinct those employees. Like, if,
by example, you have a warehouse operation, you can't just
(15:54):
say that everybody in the warehouse is a safety sensitive employee.
You have to go to your job descriptions, make sure
that you have comprehensive, documented job descriptions that explain what
the different job functions are for the different employee segments
that you have. Like you're going to have someone that's
operating a forklift, I think, quite frankly, you're going to
designate to them easily as safety sensitive because they're handling
(16:15):
something that could go wrong if they're impaired. However, somebody
at the reception desk or somebody in the administrative staff
who may just be on the computer all day long,
they're going to have far less safety adverse consequences. So
making sure that you have comprehensive job descriptions documented will
save you not if, but when you're ever challenged in
the court to designate as such.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Yeah, so you both talked about how cannabis laws are
evolving right across the country and even here in Florida,
we have some new laws that are being passed. So
how often should employers review and update their drug free
workplace policies to keep up with all these changes?
Speaker 3 (16:55):
How what you want to take that, Nick, go for it,
sure if you want? Okay, So I would say on
a regular basis, no less than one a year the policies,
and this applies to across the board policies. They should
be treated as living documents. It's not a one and
done type of situation. But particularly you've heard us mentioned
(17:18):
in our talk today already about the complexity of laws
with respect to employers. I mean there are small, medium,
large size employers and multi state employers. So if you
are a multi state employer, for example, and you heard
Nick kind of run through, this is what's going on
in this state and that state. And it can also
(17:39):
vary depending upon your talking recreational or medicinal use of marijuana.
So HR practitioners have to be intentional about reviewing their policies,
recognizing that this is a constantly evolving landscape because of
many of the court cases that are working through not
(18:00):
only at the state level, but there's ongoing continuous conversations
at the federal level as well around declassification or decriminalization
or reclassification of cannabis in general, not just in the workplace.
So that said, you know this is yes, this is
(18:21):
about compliance and it is about risk management, and it
is about you know, protecting not only the workplace but
the workforce so that the goal is to retain our
talented employees. So how do we do so we as
HR practitioners have to stay current, have to follow, and
(18:42):
have to be intentional in updating those policies, which brings
us back to it has to be a living document
that we are at least no less than I would
say once a year reviewing them and reviewing them in
partnership with legal counsel and other professionals who can guide
us in terms of what the best policy is that
(19:04):
is going to protect all of those stakeholders that I've mentioned,
the workforce as well as the workplace from the underlying
litigation which is sure to come, not if, but definitely
will come for this area as of law, as it
does with so many others.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Nick, did you want to add to that?
Speaker 1 (19:25):
I mean, I mean, Cheryl said it beautifully. I mean
it should be an annual requirement at the very least,
just to give you an idea. Here at DSCI, we
track bills from the minute they're born to this as
it go through the legal process and then eventually either
die or or become law, and then we of course
interpret with those with the rule language of the law
is and how they impact employer workplace programs, and then
(19:45):
we provide guidance. We're tracking right now three hundred and
twenty two active cannabis bills and that number fluctuates by
the week. Now, again, the more enjority of these die
before they ever see the day in the light of day.
But these are laws that can impact what employers can
or can't do, So you have to stay on top
of it again at least an annual requirement, and then
(20:07):
make sure you have a resource that keeps you in
tune when these laws change and it can help you
decipher what actions need to happen at your workplace and
how it impacts your program.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Well, you just brought something that's really interesting. You said resource.
Can you all provide to our HR employer's employees who
are listening what resources are available for them to kind
of stay up to date if at all possible.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Yeah, I could recommend, obviously, as Cheryl mentioned, illegal resource,
whether you have in house council, outside council, or if
you have a compliance partner in this space, maybe a TPA,
a third party administrator that's helping you out administering your
drug testing program. Certainly, US at DSCI, where we focus
on this stuff all day long, are happy to provide
state specific guidance and resources, consulting, training, all the rest.
(20:53):
But it's utilizing those out there that focus on this
type of stuff so that you can continue wearing the
Mani hats to you wear, but still get the information
and strategies that you need to be successful.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Hey, Cheryl, did you have any resources And we're going
to put both of your contact information in the social
media comments so people can reach out to you. Cheryl,
any resources that you recommend from HR exactly. And one
of the things you've heard me mentioned is talk about
recovery ready workplaces and recovery friendly workplaces. Now, briefly, I'll
just say the model that that is based upon is
(21:29):
intended to bring together in the workplace for the benefit.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
Of the workforce, and that includes managers and leaders and
others a connection with resources that are available in their
local community that they may not know of or have
never considered building relationships with to provide education and support. Again,
not only to the HR practitioners or those who are
(21:57):
administering the policies, but let's educate the entire work force
about these ideally so that we can get ahead of problems.
Typically in the workplace, these issues get the most attention
when there's been an accident or an incident, something has happened.
But when that happens, we're reacting, we're engaging in response
(22:20):
to something that has occurred. It is our belief, through
the recovery ready, recovery friendly workplace model, that we can
engage individuals further upstream, if you will, in creating conversations
where folks can be curious about these things, where they
can learn about these things, where that they will have
(22:41):
the opportunity to modify their choices, their decisions, their thinking
about certain things without having to be forced to do
so or uncomfortably positioned to do so because they fear
that their job may be at risk. There's so many
resources available in the community and beyond. People don't know
(23:05):
who they are, they where they are, how to access them,
how to resource connect with those resources. But if we
can bridge those gaps through education such as we're doing today,
it really helps individuals help themselves and their co workers,
and by extension, others learn about these things and be
(23:26):
more proactive as opposed to reactive and getting the support
that they need to address these things.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
Thank you Cheryl on that one. And nigol And asks
you how do policies differ for remote employees versus those
who are on site?
Speaker 1 (23:42):
It's an incredibly hot topic that keeps our phones ringing
off the hook. I mean, you saw the shift during COVID,
and even before that, we're employers were utilizing remote workforces.
I think it's a great concept, right, but how do
you manage that employee that's off site, that's not under
your direct supervision. Sample one of our clients called us
(24:02):
because they were on a gigantic team meeting. They had
all their team on a zoom caller something similar, and
in the background, one of their employees on the dining
room table had a bomb and it was emitting smoke.
So you, as an HR specialist, a DER designate, an
employer representative, how do you handle that situation where typically
if they're right in front of you in the workplace,
(24:24):
you can make that observation. You can see if there's
signs and symptoms of suspected substance use and then take
adverse employer or go through that process of getting them
tested in et cetera. How do you do that From
a remote aspect, do you send a manager out to
their location. Do you hire a drug screen collector pay
them one hundred and fifty bucks to go out there
and do a collection. It's incredibly challenging to handle that.
(24:48):
From a policy perspective, you can no longer have a
nationwide zero tolerance policy. We run into clients all the
time and say, hey, I have this policy that covers
coast to coast, and I put my hand in my face.
I mean, it's like you're litigation target if you have
one of those today. Because of the thirty one states
that have mandatory drug testing laws, all the different states
(25:09):
that authorize the adult use or medical use of cannabis,
it complicates things. So what we recommend to rap this
is to have a core company policy, essentially your kitchen
sink of what you wish, what your desires are for
your screening program, and then address state and municipal issues
by state policy adenda or even federal rules as well,
so that those employees in those areas throughout the country
(25:31):
know exactly what the rules are and requirements of them,
and for you as an employer and your management staff
to understand what the rules are that they are enforcing.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Jure, how do you all keep that information front and center?
How would an employer keep that front and center? Other
than again, you know, telling the employee when they on
board them or like once they're involved in the workforce,
how do you remind them of this? And again, I
don't mean to repeat myself, but I think it's so important.
We're really at a cross world and are at a
(26:02):
time when we are trying to change workplace culture around
these topics. It's not helpful to just be in a
gotcha kind of mode of operation where we're constantly scanning
and looking for violations of our company policies.
Speaker 3 (26:17):
You know, I do a lot of training with HR practitioners,
and their number one question to me is how do
you identify signs and symptoms of employees who are misusing substances?
And we really have to work to change the thing
about that particularly. We just spoke about remote employees, how
(26:38):
do you smell or you know, see what the eyes
look like, or the traditional signs and symptoms that we
were taught to look for. It's almost impossible to view
those now when people so many people in different positions
are working remotely. So but at the same time, we
still have drug free policies, EERO tolerance policy. So how
(27:01):
do we address that. I come back to changing the
workplace culture so that we provide ongoing education not only
for the employers, but for all employees as well. You know,
we talk about poly drug use. People don't always realize this,
(27:21):
but some of the same signs and symptoms that HR
practitioners have been trained to look for could be manifest
from combinations of other substances or drugs that are legally
prescribed for other conditions. If an employee has worked too
many shifts overnight and tried to balance personal needs with childcare,
(27:46):
with jobs and going to school, that employee may exhibit
behaviors as one who would perceive that they are under
the influence of some substance. So, yes, we have have
to talk about signs and symptoms and reasonable suspicion in
all of those things. But let's also create opportunities to
(28:08):
have conversations that are safe, where we just share information
so that it motivates people to be more willing to
disclose if they are having challenges with a particular substance,
if they are using a particular substance sleep medication, for example,
or medically prescribed or medically authorized use of cannabis. Let's
(28:33):
create a workplace culture through education where we can have
these conversations so that we get ahead of the curve
and we're proactive as opposed to always reactive and always
looking to play the gotcha game. Nobody wins in those situations.
We just want to make sure people understand the need
(28:55):
for compliance. The concerns around risk management, live ability, all
those things are vitally important. But at the same time,
we're working with humans, people who need the support. So
let's talk about what might be going on with that
individual and how we can work together to access resources
(29:15):
make those available at all stages of progression along this
particular continuum of care.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
Yeah, Nick, you want to add anything to that, I
think it's absolutely right. I mean, drug testing used to
be a gotcha program, or at least I mean that's
what it started off. As you know, you're detecting the
subs and illial substance that sh That's definitely got to
shift these days. And as as Cheryl mentioned, I mean,
the cost of we all know the cost of hiring
an employee is incredibly more significant than retaining a good employee.
(29:46):
So get creative, bring some humanism to it. Consider second
chance agreements, consider reasonable accommodations, consider other alternatives that you
can find a strike a balance I guess for an
employer's rights and employee.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Rights, Nick, have you seen any best practices where drug
testing is done that's compliant and more supportive of the employee.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Yeah? Absolutely. I mean, we deal with thousands of clients,
as you mentioned here in the US and abroad. We
have one client that's one of the largest hospitality companies
in the world, and they had an issue, a bit
gigantic work comp issue, a lot of slip and falls
coming in a lot of well I digress on that,
but they were having a financial hit that they need.
(30:30):
They contacted us, say how can you help us? And
we evaluated their program from top down, right, they weren't
testing pre higher they and hospitality you're in very safety
sensitive environments. And then there was a pattern of work
comp claims from different injuries, et cetera, which was it
was a significant payout for them, right, So we came
in and we implemented a policy with both pre hire
(30:53):
and post higher testing, and made sure that we took
into consideration the state laws that are there any limitations
both on testing and discipline, and made sure that every
single manager and supervisor in their organization was trained on
how to properly recognize the signs and symptoms of workplace
substance use or potential impairment. Train them on what the
(31:16):
rules are of their policy and the procedures that complement
that policy. And then I talk to them about oral
fluid drug testing, which we haven't really talked about here,
but has a shorter detection time period specifically for cannabis use,
but for all drugs use. And then also implementing second
chance agreements again or reasonable accommodations for those employees that
(31:37):
do test positive. You know, you don't automatically need to
terminate them, You may be able to reasonably accommodate them
in a non safety sensitive role or provide them a
second chance agreement where they understand the rules and they're
signing that if everything, anything should happen again, then they're out.
So that's you know, it's not going to fit for everybody,
but it's kind of a blueprint that can be repeated,
(31:57):
I think across the world.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
There.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Yeah, we spent a lot of time talking about medical
cannabis use, but I want to kind of shift to
talk about CBD products. So like the gummy edibles and
all of those things that you know here in Florida,
you can find them in a convenience store and you
don't even need a medical marijuana car to get it.
So what are you seeing when it comes to people
who may be using CBD edibles which have some levels
(32:23):
of THC of them? Even where you look at how
are employers dealing with those scenarios where the employee is
using CPU.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
It's incredibly dangerous. Right now, you have the Delta eight's,
you have the Delta tens, you have the Delta four
hundred and twenty whatever they're going to create next, right,
and there's cannabi dial which is CBD, but there's also
hemp derived products, which is what you're seeing on the
shows in states that don't allow adult use of cannabis
or medical use of cannabis. So it's a very slippery
(32:54):
slope and in some states it's outright decriminal or excuse me,
illegal criminal penalties, where other states it's not. You can
get it on the world Wide Web, you can get
it shipped to you and deliver it to you can
go find it at the local smoke shop or drug stores.
This is my advice. There is absolutely a lack of
oversight in the manufacturing process of these chemical or these products.
(33:17):
I should say, there's all kinds of case law that's
already being established where one big one as a trucker
who was using a product, a very common or very
popular product, and it was a cannabi dill product that
said it was pure CBD. Well, he got tested in
a random drug test under federal law, tested positive for marijuana,
(33:39):
lost his job. He turned around and sued the product
manufacturer because they found out during independent testing that that
product contained one thousand and five percent more THC than
what's advertised on the product container. Wow, that's incredible, right,
So there's lack of no FDA oversight, very lack of
quality control. What we typically advise our clients to write
(34:01):
it into policy and also advise employees that if their
life likelihood could be jeopardized by them testing positive for marijuana,
whether regarding their use of cannabdil products or not. It's
buyer beware.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Yep, yeah, Cheryl, you going to add anything to that?
Speaker 3 (34:17):
Well? To me, this is a topic that with respect
to the workplace, again, this is where education is key.
Many people just have no clue even what CBD stands for.
What it is, Believe it or not. It's in a lotion,
it's in a cream, someone gave it to them as
a gift. They may not even realize that the underlying
(34:41):
element is that makes that so popular these days. So
we have been partnering with health and wellness professionals and
practitioners in many cases to utilize their platform that they
already have within the workplace to bring in and introduce
conversation lectures around this topic to talk about CBD. We're
(35:05):
looking for any way we can to create a conversation
for those who may be curious or may just not
even know this is a thing that could potentially cause
them harm. Everything that Nick said is absolutely true. How
do we educate people about that? If it comes through
the HR door. Sometimes there's a wall built up from
(35:27):
the beginning that the employees are not going to be
privy to that information or may not be receptive to it.
If there's conversations that are held through safety committees or
those types of things, well, then the folks who are
responsible for risk management and safety would talk about that.
I don't know that they would talk about CBD in
(35:48):
that type of setting. But if we've got existing wellness programs,
health and wellness programs, health and wellness fairs, different months
we celebrate different things, suicide awareness, mental health, you know,
recovery month. There are so many opportunities if we partner
with existing programs to introduce five minute conversations bringing a
(36:11):
subject matter expert to talk about things like CBD that
otherwise individuals would not have the opportunity to even learn
about or ask questions about, and as it relates to
how that can potentially impact your job with our company.
And so that's what we want to balance the compliance
(36:34):
with the education at GET in any way we can,
especially through existing programs that create the opportunity, yes, managers
and supervisors but also frontline employees to learn about this thing,
then they can work together to come up with solutions
that benefit all.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
Yeah, Well that was really, really, really well said, and
we've covered almost everything we wanted to talk about today,
and I want to give you both an opportunity to
just share some closing thoughts or some resources, or just
one nuggative insight that we didn't touch on that you
would love for our listeners and viewers to hear from
today's program.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Nick, you want to go ahead for me, Yeah, I'll
just say that. Look, this is a very rapidly changing
legal landscape and practical landscape for HR employers. I mean,
there's no methodology, there's no device, there's no per se
limit that can determine if someone's under the influence or
used cannabis right now or recently. Right the only tool
that's out there that exists today that we would recommend
(37:31):
is looking into oral fluid or saliva drug testing. Saliva
drug testing oral fluid testing has been used in our
nation's workforces for over a decade, and actually the Department
of Transportation recently approved oral fluid testing for dot federally
regulated testing programs. Well, I'll make a note that that's
all on hold right now until they get the labs
and the product of the screening devices set up. It
(37:53):
vouched for the science of oral fluid testing to be
that of or better than testing via urine, and that
shrinks that testing time period detection time period down to
about a matter of hours versus several days or several weeks,
so you get more of as the best product you
can use, I guess, or best methodology you can use
to determine recent usage usage. So that's just something to
(38:16):
look into again. And as Cheryl mentioned earlier, you don't
know what that impairment is. Someone could have been had
a late night with a sick child or whatever, and
they're coming in they're all discombobulated. It doesn't mean they're
under the influence of something, but they still could potentially
be impaired. So look into the screening methodologies and stay
up today with state laws is all I can really are.
Speaker 3 (38:39):
Composing thoughts well, I just want to always encourage folks
to be curious and continue to learn, regardless of their
role in the organization. We talked to C suite executives.
They have a different area of focus than the frontline
employees HR practitioners. In many cases, you may have an
employee company that has and HR department of one They're
(39:02):
typically going to be very overwhelmed with just meeting the
regular needs of their role. So how do we address
topics like this which are so very important. I've seen
large organizations like Oracle with eighty five thousand employees put
new programs in place to provide education for all employees
(39:24):
because of the incentive of one individual that was affected
by the issue. So programs like this that go out
that may be heard by senior leaders, HR practitioners, safety
compliance managers, frontline workers. We want all of you to
know there are so many new programs in place, new
(39:47):
organizations of collaboration and cooperation working together to educate about
these initiatives, so that individuals who are affected by it,
who may be struggling with pay management, who may be
struggling with whatever life has brought their way, we talk
about post traumatic stress disorder, those topics are now being explored,
(40:10):
and how do we talk about those safely in the workplace.
It comes down to a workplace culture thing, and the
culture can be changed by one individual who has a
passion to learn more and share what they learn with others.
Recovery friendly workplace provides that model. Recovery ready workplaces if
(40:31):
folks want to learn more about that, please let us know.
Just as Nick specializes and being our good partner to
help those who need to know about the intricacies of
liability and litigation and laws in all fifty states, we
also want to balance that equally with this focus on
(40:51):
the human and human resources, the individuals that make up
the work force, so that we can have a work
place that cares for and meets the needs of all stakeholders.
It's a great partnership, a great collaboration, a great cooperative
spirit around finding solutions and I'm just so honored to
(41:13):
be able to speak about those today as a part
of this panel. Thank you for the invitation.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
Beautifully said Cheryl beautifully said it. And if I can
make one more suggestion, Hei you reach out to your
association groups out there, whether it's HR association groups again,
you guys are all in the same thing, tank together
to deal with the same issues, right or. The National
Drug and Alcohol Screening Association in DESA and SAPPA is
another drug testing specific industry association. Plenty of information and
(41:41):
content and guidance from the professionals that deal with the issue.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
Yeah, will share them with the in the comment boxes.
On the social media ahead.
Speaker 3 (41:55):
He reminded me, the National Safety Council has just been
named a National Recovery Friendly Workplace, so, and the Human
Resource Certification Institute is a nationally certified recovery friendly workplace.
So you are going to hear more about how we
address these issues proactively and support employees over the long
(42:18):
term of the continuum of care from credible, reputable organizations
such as these that we've spoken to you about today.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
All Right, well, Nick and Cheryl, thank you both for
being guests on this Conversations on Cannabis virtual form brought
to you by the Medical Marijuana Education and Research Initiative
at Florida and M University. Thank you to everyone watching
this program. Tell us what you think about this form
by completing the survey posted in the comment boxes on
Mary's social media pages. If you complete the survey, your
(42:48):
name will be entered into a drawing in October twenty
twenty five to win a one hundred dollars gift car
provided by one of Mary's partners. We also want to
encourage you to go to the Florida Department of Health
Office Medical Marijuana Use website to learn how to obtain
a legal medical marijuana card in the state of Florida.
We also encourage you to go to Florida and M
(43:09):
University's Merry website to learn more about this initiative, its
educational programs, and about cannabis use in Florida. Thanks everyone.
Speaker 3 (43:22):
The views and opinions of our invited guests are not
necessarily the views and opinions of Florida Agricultural and Mechanical
University or the medical Marijuana Education and Research Initiative.
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