August 11, 2025 • 34 mins
Courses, VIP days, retainers, digital products- oh my!
If your offer suite feels more like a jigsaw puzzle than a business strategy, this episode is for you.
I’m joined by Maggie Patterson, creator of BS-Free Business®, author of Staying Solo®, and host of three podcasts, to talk about what service providers really need in their offer suite to build a profitable, simple, and sustainable business. No hustling required.
We get into:
- Why most offer suite advice is built for hype, not real service businesses
- What to focus on when your capacity is limited (especially if you're a mom or caregiver)
- How to simplify your offers without losing income
- The truth about low-ticket products and how much they actually take to sell
- What real business freedom looks like when you build it on purpose
If your offers feel like they’re running you instead of the other way around, this convo is your permission slip to rethink it all.
Mentioned In This Episode:
Grab Maggie’s Book (seriously, it'll change your life): www.stayingsolobook.com
Listen to the Staying Solo Podcast www.bsfreebusiness.com/solo
Get Access to Staying Solo Stories (Private Podcast): ww.bsfreebusiness.com/sydney (This one’s full of behind-the-scenes stories from real solo business owners building businesses that actually fit their lives.)
Check out Duped: The Dark Side Of Online Business: https://duped.online/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sydney (she/her) (2) (00:00):
Do you ever feel like, , everyone is telling you
(00:02):
to scale and hustle harder and buildan empire when all you really want is
a business that pays well and stilllets you pick up your kid from school?
Because same.
And that is why I could not waitto interview Maggie Patterson.
Maggie is the creator of BS Freebusiness and the author of Staying Solo,
which is a book I absolutely devoured,by the way, you have to read it.
(00:23):
, , Sydney (she/her): Maggie hosts two podcasts, staying solo and
Confessions of a micro agency owner,and she also co-hosts the Consumer
Advocacy Podcast called Dupedthe Dark Side of Online Business.
And if you have listened to any ofthose, you know she's a powerhouse
when it comes to calling out toxicmarketing and building a business
rooted in actual integrity.
(00:46):
With 20 plus years experience as a client-based
business owner, Maggie, helps serviceproviders build what she calls a boring
business, AKA profitable, sustainable,
And not built on chronic hustle.
She's one of the most honest, groundedvoices in the industry, and I am so
excited for you to hear this conversation.
Sydney (she/her) (01:37):
Maggie, for people that don't know you, can you tell us a little
bit about your background and what you do?
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (01:43):
So I actually started my business 20 years ago and
it's had lots of twists and turns.
My background's in communications.
Um, I've done a lot of businessconsulting over the years, and now I
run a company called BS Free Business.
I work with small business owners thatrun service businesses, so they're
typically solo, like true solo businessowners doing consulting or creative work.
(02:06):
And then I also work with, um, some verysmall, like what I call Mike Micro Agency.
So they're generally creativesor professional service
providers that have a small team.
Sydney (she/her) (02:16):
Nice.
And what made you want towork with solopreneurs?
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (02:24):
You know, it's one of those things that I think there's a
couple things is that's how I started out.
Like I do have a team now, but themajority of my clients are still
solo service business owners.
It is a really underserved market.
And um, you know, I know you'vebeen reading the book, I talk
about this a lot in the book, isthat like 80% of businesses in the
US or one person businesses yettraditional entrepreneurship advice
(02:47):
is very, very much about like.
Shark tank level or having a brickand mortar when the reality is most
businesses are one person, and mostbusinesses are service business owners.
And what I've really, really found is, um.
That's a really hard place to bewhen you are, especially if you're
on, you know, in the internet,on the online business world.
(03:07):
Like you start to feel lessthan, you start to feel like
your business isn't legitimate.
Like, I have to grow, I have tobuy this really expensive coaching.
I have to do all these things.
So I want to be like the antidoteto that messaging to be like,
Hey, this is a legitimate choice.
It's what the majority of businessowners do, and like, let's talk about
how to make sure that you are not fallinginto traps of burnout or not paying
(03:27):
yourselves or those types of things.
Sydney (she/her) (03:29):
I really love that because it is so easy to
get caught up in those like the.
Bigger, , marketing messages around thatlike grow and scale, which is all like
really great, but it's not super doablefor small teams or like solopreneurs.
And I feel like a lot of it is alsokind of misleading the way people make
(03:50):
certain claims about the , successesthey have had in online businesses.
So I have.
Been really enjoying your book andthe way it talks about all of that.
So highly recommend for anyone listening.
And you also mentioned in thebook that online business world
has gotten kind of culty which Ifound to be really interesting.
(04:11):
Could you talk aboutthat for just a minute?
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (04:16):
Yeah, I mean I talk about this all
the time, but I'm always like.
sorry, I wish it wasn't this way.
But what we really see is, you know,the same way we would see with like
multi-level marketing companies, orwe see in traditional cults we see a
lot of marketing and sales tactics,influence tactics being used in a
way that is designed to shut downyour critical thinking, to convince
(04:39):
you this person has the answersand essentially take your money.
And like something that wewould traditionally label as a.
Scam.
Like, you know, you've got somefriend who's selling some crypto
thing and you're like, oh no, no.
Um, we look at this a littlebit differently because business
owners are hardwired to be hopeful.
We are optimists like we arelike, Hey, I'm gonna be out here.
I'm gonna make my own way.
(05:01):
So we think, well, why couldn't it be me?
Why couldn't I make the all the money?
And we get really lulledinto this sense of, um.
That they have answers, that wedon't have answers, and the cultiness
comes in in terms of some of thefinancial abuses that happen.
I hear these stories all the time andit's, it's really way more prevalent.
(05:21):
Um, the commitment, theway they want you to.
Do things you wouldn't normally do.
Like it's sometimes it's as simpleas a, something less culty, but
not a cult, per se, is you havea business coach that's like, but
this is the only one way to do it.
Like there's one source of truth.
And that to me is where we haveto think like, Hey, you know what?
(05:41):
It's actually more nuanced than that.
I need more context.
I need to take in other things.
I need to think critically aboutwhat's gonna work best for me.
And I think one of the things likeI know your audience is moms, um.
whether you're a mom or you'reneurodivergent or you're caring for,
you know, elderly parents, you are verycapacity conscious and a lot of the
business advice is not built for you.
(06:03):
And then when you combine it withthe culty part of it, that's where
it gets really messy and people startto feel really bad about being able
to make money the way they've mademoney and like, it's just not good.
Sydney (she/her) (06:14):
So I feel like, and I, you've talked about this as well in
your book and also on your podcast thatI've also been listening to the, there's
kind of like these trends in offersas well, like funnels and then courses
and then memberships and like thispromise of like scaling your business.
Is there a better way that peoplewith less capacity, like moms,
(06:37):
caregivers, neurodivergent people,should be kind of focusing their
efforts when it comes to theiroffers and building their businesses.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (06:47):
So this is a really, really good question, and I
think the simplest answer is so manyof the things you just listed off, like
memberships and courses, they're not bad.
But they're not as simple
Sydney (she/her) (06:59):
Mm-hmm.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (06:59):
out to be.
And this is why I'm very pro serviceslike, you know, I think those offers can
be great if you have an audience, butwe don't talk about all the marketing
it takes to fill those things up.
They're like, create your membership.
You'll get a thousand members.
That's like a thousand Who,like where are those people?
Where are we
Sydney (she/her) (07:14):
Right.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (07:14):
from?
It makes no sense.
So, you know, for most people.
Sticking to services and beingreally, really mindful about
like, what are my boundaries?
How many clients can I take on?
How do I communicate upfrontthat this is how I work?
Maybe I don't jump, haveweekly calls with my clients.
You have a permission to slipas a business owner to create
the business in a way that isgoing to work for your real life.
(07:37):
And I always say to my clientslike, is that like they'll
tell me something, I'll go.
Is that gonna actually worklike for your actual life?
'cause you just finished telling me whata train wreck all these things were like
because real life is happening around you.
So you know, if it's not workingfor your real life, it's not
gonna work in your business.
Like, you just need tobe very, very honest.
(07:57):
And I mean, I've been through thiswhen I started my business, you
know, my son was home for quite sometime, then I had part-time daycare.
Then I had, you know, school hours.
I've gone through deaths of parentscaregiving, dealing with my own health.
Like there's always going to be thingsin your life that are impacting your
capacity and you have to accountfor them, and you cannot schedule
(08:18):
every single hour you have availablefor work to do actual client work.
It just doesn't work that way.
Sydney (she/her) (08:23):
Right.
I love that you mentioned that.
I feel like it's very easy,especially when now we're
existing so much and like the on.
Line world and seeing all ofthese oh, you can have what I
have type of marketing posts.
It's very easy to get caught upin that and then realize, no,
I, that's not gonna work for me.
I can't quite have that.
Especially when you mention likefilling those memberships, which
(08:45):
would be lovely to have all thethousand people, but I think it.
It's pretty eye-opening when Italk to people, when I talk to
them specifically about Instagram.
'cause that's what Ido Instagram marketing.
But talking about like the realisticconversion rates of that, I'm like,
not every single follower is gonna buy.
It's like a very, very small percentage.
And even for like email,it's pretty small.
(09:06):
I think we need to have somerealistic expectations there.
Both as business owners, but alsowhen we kind of consume marketing
for other services and likebusiness coaches and all of that.
Something to keep in mind for sure.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (09:22):
I'm glad that you brought that up because I
refer to this as like the , audiencegrowth grift, because it's this idea
of like, it should be so easy, likeevery five, 10,000 followers I'll
have 10,000 clients and it's like no.
The reality is, is probably maybelike 20 of those people, or like 30 of
those people at the most are gonna buy.
You have to have the right offer.
Like, and I think we like membership's.
Such a great example 'causeit's so hyped up right now.
(09:45):
Um.
If you have very limited capacityand you're like, I can only work
12 hours a week because it'swhen my kids are in preschool.
Well, you have to delivereverything in the membership.
You have to do all the marketing.
There's the community management.
Uh, there's so many elementswe're not thinking about.
We're just seeing the path to, oh,I'm gonna make $10,000 a month.
(10:05):
Super easy.
Sydney (she/her) (10:07):
Yeah.
And then if you don't have enough peoplein the membership, it's not not worth
it all the time you're putting into it.
Yeah.
You're not making that money back.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her): Yeah, I mean I've (10:16):
undefined
Sydney (she/her) (10:16):
Yeah.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (10:17):
um, you know, hope and a dream and I was
like, Yeah, no, that's not actuallygonna be profitable at $37 month.
Sydney (she/her) (10:24):
exactly.
Now, like you said, myaudience is mostly moms.
There are people kind of workingin like the, the cracks of the day.
'cause a lot of us have like youngkids that are home during the day.
What do you think they should actuallybe thinking about when building their
offer suite with that kind of capacity?
Are there like certain offersthat are better than others?
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (10:47):
So, you know, I think it's a really good question.
It's gonna depend on skills, experience,who your clients are, but I think there's
a few things for service providers that weneed to focus on more is number one thing.
Generally when people come to meand it seems really, really simple,
and they're like, most serviceproviders are undercharging.
So you're just like, 'cause youstart your business and you're like,
okay, I've got 12 hours a week.
(11:10):
I'm just gonna kind of cramit into the pockets of my day.
Maybe I'm gonna, you know, takes intoswimming lessons on Saturday morning, I've
got that three hours, and you're just kindof cramming it in and you're like, you're
just happy to make anything you can make.
Right?
And then your pricing is just like, not.
Really reflecting your skills, yourtalents, your experience, uh, the
value you deliver to your clients.
(11:30):
So always looking at your pricingfor your offers and not just
settling to be like, you know what?
Well, this is just easy.
Well, you know what?
It's better to have two clientspaying you way more money than five
clients who are underpaying you.
So I think that's the firstthing you always wanna look at.
And one of the things I see withpretty much every service provider
is they're giving away a lot ofstrategic thinking that needs to be
(11:54):
charged for, that needs to be in adifferent way than tactical work.
So I'll give you anexample with Instagram.
Like if you're doing a strategy forsomeone, like you're doing an audit,
a review, and you're making really,you know, a content strategy for them,
that's very different work than yousitting down and creating captions or
Sydney (she/her) (12:12):
Mm-hmm.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (12:13):
So when you think about that, you know, how
do you charge accordingly for that?
And I call it selling the sellthe strategy, because we tend
to merge those all together.
And then we put ourselves in thisvery executional tactical mode
when we're actually doing reallystrategic work for our clients.
Sydney (she/her) (12:29):
that's a really great point.
Um, so if there are mom business owners,'cause something I'm hearing a lot
from people that I work with who are,typically service providers as well.
They're creating, like a lot oflow ticket like digital products.
'cause that's also likea big thing right now.
So they have like lots of thoseand they're feeling like really
(12:50):
overwhelmed with their offer suites.
What do you think thebest way is to simplify?
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (12:55):
Okay.
So like digital products, somethingyou're selling at 37 or 97, like
do sit down and do the math.
How much time does it takefor me to create this?
How much time does it create forme in marketing it like, and if you
look at standard conversion rates,which you kind of alluded to a couple
Sydney (she/her) (13:10):
Hmm.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (13:10):
ago, we're talking about one to 3% of your audience.
So for every, and that's ifyour thing is really dialed in.
It's solving a really specific problem.
It's, you know, just hitting thosepoints and people are like, yes, I
Sydney (she/her) (13:22):
Yeah.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (13:23):
So you've gotta look at, you know.
For me to make a thousand dollars at 97,I've now gotta sell that to 10 people.
You know, how much work do Ineed to do to make that happen?
Or could I have $1,000 a month client?
That's way simpler, way less work, andlike way more predictable than trying to.
(13:45):
Grind it out.
And I think low ticket products arereally, really, really appealing.
But they're really hard.
Like I have been doing ever.
I've done like every type of thingunder the sun over the last 20 years.
And I will say those are the hardest forme to sell and continue to be even with
an audience, even with multiple podcasts,even with all the, you know, podcasts,
collaborations, things I do like, I doa lot of marketing and those are still
(14:09):
really challenging to sell because.
Some people don't wanna do it themselves.
They want you to do it with themand let those people give you money.
Sydney (she/her) (14:16):
I love that perspective.
It's something I'm certainly leaninginto more as I'm having these
own realizations in my business.
Like, man, I'm, I'm doing a lot right nowand need to, need to adjust things so I.
Definitely came across your, your bookat like the right time for me personally,
and I'm really excited 'cause I knowI've talked to a lot of other business
(14:37):
owners that are in the same boat, soI'm really excited for them to hear this
and, and get that information as well.
You've also said that complexityis the enemy of sustainability.
So if people right now arelistening and wondering like, if
I cut things, will I lose money?
Can you.
Talk a bit about how doingless can actually lead to more.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (15:00):
Okay.
It is the classic.
80 20 rule.
You know, we hear this all the time.
of things is not what'sgetting us with routes.
It's the 20%.
So figuring out, like, you know, youwere talking about the low ticket offers.
If I have five low ticket offers,I am now dividing all my focus.
I, everything's getting alittle bit of my attention.
What if I just had one?
And I really, really committed to that.
(15:22):
if you have five services.
What's the one servicethat I know is profitable?
I can deliver the capacity I havethat people easily say yes to.
It feels, you know, it feels likeit's in the sweet spot of what
my clients want and what I wannabe doing with my time and energy.
You know, looking for the simplestthings because we really start to think
about like more is better and actually.
(15:45):
The simplicity of having less offersmeans less marketing, less sales, less
cognitive load for you, less decisions.
Um, and I think we really.
Most entrepreneurs, mostpeople start businesses.
We have lots of ideas.
We're very creative.
We wanna do all the things.
And just learning to have thediscipline to say, you know what?
I'm going to, I'm gonna givethis service, I'm gonna give this
(16:08):
offer the best possible result.
So I'm going to really focus in on that.
And what I find when you do That is.
That's when things really start to humversus being like, oh, you know what?
I've got five offers and they'regetting a little bit, and nothing's
working really, really well, and Imade two sales here, three sales there,
and you're kind of like scraping by.
I think being okay with likeshort term loss of money for
(16:33):
longer term gain is the way to go.
Sydney (she/her) (16:36):
That makes a ton of sense, especially now I'm hearing
and seeing people are needing more.
Of those like touch points before buying,so sticking with something longer that
you already know is working ratherthan constantly switching up would
also be helpful in that aspect as well.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (16:51):
Yeah, and people are often surprised when
I tell them things like, Hey, mycore offer at BS free business,
I've been selling for nine years.
And yes, it's shifted and you know,we've done these little resets and
refinements along the way, but the coreof the offer is the same, and that's
what I've been able to become known for.
Whereas what happens with peopleis you are, if you're constantly
(17:11):
like, I'm talking about TikTok,I'm talking Instagram, I'm talking
about this, I'm talking about that.
Like, it's really hardfor people to keep up.
They're not moving asfast and it's not sticky.
You want to be, you know, like Sydnee,you wanna be known for Instagram.
So if you're all of a sudden like,Hey, I'm gonna, I'm interested in
Pinterest, all of a sudden, like,you are now diluting your brand and
you're doing yourself a disservice.
Sydney (she/her) (17:31):
Yeah, that's super true.
another thing we see a lot ofon like online marketing is like
this idea of freedom in business.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (17:38):
Yes.
, Sydney (she/her) (17:39):
But when we build businesses that kind of like.
Don't give us freedom because we're kindof adhering to all of these other things
that we talked about with like scalingand you know, these trending things.
What do you think building truefreedom actually looks like when
you're designing your offers?
Maggie Patterson (She/Her): This is such a good question. (17:57):
undefined
I mean, there's a lot of facetsto this, but I think when
you think about your offers?
the first thing you need tobasically acknowledge is.
And I, I say thisconstantly to my clients.
They're like, oh, Iwanna start a bookshop.
I'm like, but do you really like ifyou are going to work for yourself, uh,
is this the the best possible version?
(18:18):
I'm not talking about fantasy worldwhere you're making millions sitting
on the beach, because That's not real.
If I'm going to do work, like, youknow, if I'm a designer and I wanna
be a copywriter, 'cause I used todo both an agency, like why am I
doing design if I wanna do copy?
Being very, very clear about like,what are my marketable skills?
Do I wanna be doing this?
(18:39):
That is a really good place tostart because it is really hard
to feel any sense of freedomwhen you hate what you're doing.
So, you know, what is the most acceptableversion of work if I have to work?
Because the reality is, ismost of us do have to work.
We are not independently wealthy.
So I think starting there andthen also recognizing freedom
is not necessarily like, I'm notworking, I aren't doing this.
(19:00):
It's like freedom to beflexible with your schedule.
Freedom to not have to likerespond really quickly.
So it starts with reallylittle things like boundaries.
Communicating those to yourclients, reinforcing those with
your clients, making sure you'renot over-delivering that, you know,
you're not constantly in scope creep.
Um, and a lot of this is gonna, and II'm always reticent to say this, a lot
(19:23):
of this is gonna come down to a lotof practice and also just the mindset,
like am the owner of my businessand I don't work for my clients.
It's the collaboration.
And that everything is up for negotiation.
And if clients can't respect,like, Hey, you know what?
I have to leave at three o'clockto pick up my child from preschool.
not gonna be the rightfit for you as a client.
Sydney (she/her) (19:46):
That's super true.
I love that you mentioned thesmall, like bits of freedom, like
being able to take your time,responding and things like that.
I feel like that's something, uh, kindof take for granted and or like look
over really as freedom instead of whatwe, what I see a lot online being.
On Instagram all the time of like, oh,I'm making sales from like this resort
(20:10):
while I'm like doing nothing, sittingby the beach and stuff like that.
It doesn't always look like that.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her): No, and I think you've gotta (20:16):
undefined
remember that all of that.
is designed to be
Sydney (she/her) (20:20):
Mm-hmm.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her): They're selling you a dream and (20:20):
undefined
that dream is not a, not real.
Like, I hate to say I have an entirepodcast called Duped, where we go
into all of this because that is a,a ploy to get you to buy something.
And I think one of the things, youknow, I always think back like my
son's 21 now, but when he was in schooland I would have to adjust my hours.
(20:43):
I would send an email at the beginningof June and say, Hey everyone, I'm
now moving to my summer schedule, andthat means you may find me working at
non-traditional times, like, I'm notgonna be working between nine to three.
I might be working at 8:00 PMLike I will respond to you within.
And I think freedom to communicate thosethings and have your clients respect that.
(21:04):
That meant I could go to library,I could go to the pool, I could
do what I want and not feel like Iwas being fractured all the time.
And that.
be very different in differentseasons of your life.
But I think those boundaries there andcommunicating 'em really clearly is the
first step to that and is something youwould need to consistently be doing with
Sydney (she/her) (21:23):
Mm-hmm.
I love that you mentioned that.
I literally have like in my emailsignature, I might respond outside of
normal working hours, but do not feel thepressure to respond right away or like
outside your own normal working hours.
Because a lot of the times, yeah, whenmy kids are home, I'm like writing emails
at like 9:00 PM and things like that,but I'd never want other people to feel
(21:44):
like they need to do the same, to likekeep the conversation going or anything.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (21:50):
And this is why I'm a huge fan of Send Later,
Sydney (she/her) (21:52):
Mm.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (21:54):
like I would write things at God knows
what time, and then I'd just belike, I magically go out at 8:32
Sydney (she/her) (21:59):
Yeah, that's a really, that's very smart.
I don't know why I never thoughtof that, but I'll have to use that.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (22:07):
I, I don't want anyone to think
I'm actually working at nine.
If I, if I was
Sydney (she/her) (22:11):
Yeah, that's a good point.
Like, don't expect me to stay uplate working on your, your stuff.
Yeah.
Now I also have seen this kind ofbelief, , that if we are not like working
on scaling or growing, growing your,your business is kind of like stagnant.
So what would you say to likethe mom business owners who are.
(22:33):
Hitting their incomegoals but not scaling.
I guess I'm just gonnakeep using that term.
Who might feel like she's doing somethingwrong because it's not what everyone else
is talking about or doing in business.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (22:47):
So I talk about this a lot in the book,
and I'm sure you've been into thatsection by now, but you know, there's
a difference between growth and scale.
And I come, I've, my background's in techcommunications and we talk about tech
companies scaling, like that's true scale.
Like, and what it means to scaleis I am making more and more
and more of my money without.
(23:08):
At Capital Investment, the way scaleis used, and this is, I'm such a words
person, but it annoys me to no endThe way that this is a misused term.
The majority of what businessesare doing in the online business
realm and what they're talkingabout, it's not scale, it's growth.
Number one, is not something that mostbusinesses are ever going to really
(23:30):
achieve, uh, as a solo business owner.
So if you're making $5,000 amonth and you're like, I'm good.
That's okay.
Like there's nothing wrong withthat because I think the one thing
that happens, you get kind of,it chips away at you over time.
And the reality is, is like most of yourfriends are looking at you going, I'd
like to make $5,000 a month and havea flexible schedule, or whatever that
(23:53):
number is, and then getting really clearfor you, like, what is that number?
What is enough?
for some people that's mightbe a thousand dollars a month.
For some people thatmay be $10,000 a month.
It's not about the number.
It's what that number means to youand your family and for your life.
And there's no magic number that makes youmore or less legit as a business owner.
(24:14):
So I, you know, so many timesI talk to people and they're
like, I'm just making it.
I'm like, do you know you makemore than most business owners?
They're like, what?
Like people have totally lost the plot.
So just know that whateveryou're doing is good enough and
you need to figure out what.
What that enough number isfor you and plan from there.
It's totally normal to wannagrow, but growing is not doubling
(24:35):
your business every year.
Sometimes it might be, Hey, you know what?
I have a client 10%less and made 11% more.
That was a win.
Sydney (she/her) (24:45):
Yeah, that's a big win.
And you kind of mentioned this,and I know you mentioned it in your
book, but the amount of money solobusiness owners make isn't as much.
Like, it's not a ton.
So if you're not fe, if you feel likeyou're not hitting those like 10 K
months or whatever, you hear everyonehear everyone like talking about or
bragging about online they're, they'renot, it's like the actual number was
(25:10):
what was like 39,000 or something.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her): I think it's like $46,000. (25:13):
undefined
In the US naming, it varies bycountry, but there is consistent
research that shows a few things isnumber one, the majority of businesses
never make a hundred thousand dollars
Sydney (she/her) (25:25):
Hmm.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (25:25):
Like, and that's, that's just the numbers.
Bear that out.
Especially if you're a woman, awoman owned business, especially if
you are a woman of color, like thosenumbers go down and down and down.
So, and that's not to say you can'tdefy that and do better than that.
But also like when someone says,oh, I'm making 10 KA month.
Just know that they maybe10 made 10 K one month.
(25:48):
And maybe it's 'cause clientsall pay their invoices at once.
Like I've had some reallybig months in my business.
But if I was to sit down and tellyou all the reasons those happened.
And what was happening on eitherside of that, it would, you would
be like, oh, so just know peopleare a little fast and loose with
how they talk about their numbers.
And that's why, to me, as a consumer,I look at anyone who's using, um,
(26:11):
an income claim to say, I madethis and I can teach you too.
Or, you know, I, you are gonnamake $10,000 a month or whatever.
I, I approach that with a lot ofskepticism and I don't do business
with those people because I don'twanna be deceived in that kind of way.
Sydney (she/her) (26:26):
Yeah, I feel the same way.
I.
I feel like so many people aremaking those income claims online
now, and every time I see it, I'vejust kind of cringe a little bit.
Um, and just because you like that,not you specifically, sorry, that
person did it for like their business,doesn't mean they can necessarily
get you those exact same results.
(26:47):
Because like you said earlier,there's a lot of nuance, um, in
everyone's situation and, andconsiderations and things like that.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (26:56):
Yeah.
and there's never, there'snever the full story.
And you know, like I, you think of someof the biggest names in the online space.
Like, they're like, oh,I've made $32 million total.
Yeah, they started in 2011.
It was a very different world.
Like I remember that world.
Facebook ads were like a dollar,like that's not reality now.
(27:18):
And I think especially now in 2025,like we are navigating a lot of things
we don't have a playbook for in termsof the economy, the geopolitical
situation, there's constant crisises.
You know, people are veryconscious about their budget.
'cause you know, if you've been tobuy anything at the grocery store,
you know what that looks like.
So your business is now operating againstall of those things in the background.
(27:40):
So what worked even a year agois going to shift and change.
Sydney (she/her) (27:44):
Yeah, that's super important to keep in mind right now.
There's, there's a ton, tongoing on, um, and it definitely
affects, um, buyer behavior.
So, definitely don't feel bad ifyour months look different than they
used to, or you're not getting those10 K months that you see online.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (28:04):
Yeah, and I think the reality is is
I actually wrote an email to mylist this morning about this.
It's like, yes, it's the economy,but there's not, there's a lot of
other factors and what we all haveto look at as business owners is,
okay, here's the bigger backdrop, andyou can choose, like you can just.
Be like, oh, it's the economy,and be okay with that.
Or you can start to look at thingsvery strategically in your business.
(28:25):
Friends, I'm 20 years in, I have hadto do a lot of soul searching and a lot
of little refinements, little resetsin my business over the last year
to continue to stay relevant and tocontinue to, you know, hit the numbers
I have been able to consistently hit
Sydney (she/her) (28:40):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's a really great point.
, If someone's listening right now andthey're feeling just like completely
stuck in like that huy version of theirbusiness where they're just spending
all their time, um, and not gettingmuch return, what is the first thing you
would want them to like do or rethink?
Maggie Patterson (She/Her): I want them to go back to the (29:01):
undefined
very, very, very beginning and.
If you are in a situation, let's say youhave a service and I'll use Instagram
'cause that's what you do, Sydnee is maybeyou're doing Instagram consulting or you
know, social media management, you know,and you are not able to get traction.
Maybe you're getting, you know,I start to diagnose the problem.
(29:22):
Do I have anyone that'sactually interested?
No.
Okay, so that's telling me a few things.
Maybe I have a messaging problem, maybeI'm not talking about the right problems.
Maybe I need to positionmyself like more of an expert.
Um, maybe I'm not doing enough marketing.
That's a really common one I seewith service business owners.
They're like sitting aroundtwiddling their thumbs.
They're like, I don't have enough clients.
And I'm like, what are you doing about it?
(29:45):
Like, you know, business is not magic.
It comes down to some veryfundamental strategic things that
I talk about something in thebook called The Strategy Stack.
So, you know, really goingthrough what are the problems,
what is your positioning?
What are your packages?
What are, you know, yourpromotional marketing strategy?
What is your pricing?
All of those things haveto be working together.
(30:07):
And if you are not able to makesales or you're just not even getting
any interest, you need to go backto the very beginning and start
to figure out why aren't working.
And a lot of times it comesdown to a lack of specificity.
Everyone wants to be for everyone,and that's not how it works.
The more specific you can get, the better.
I saw this when I went from, you know,working with solo business owners to
(30:29):
micro business owners, to micro agencyowners and solo service business owners.
Many creatives and consultants,people are scared to do that.
But the more specific you can be tocall those people in, the better it
gets because people go, oh, that's me.
Yes, I have that problem.
Let me
Sydney (she/her) (30:45):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's a really great point.,
I find that when I get more specific,not only in like niching down, uh,
if you wanna call it that, but inthe transformation a specific offer
provides is also incredibly helpful.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (31:03):
Yeah, I'm, oh, I could talk about that one
all day because it, like, people willbe like, what they do is they focus
on like, you're gonna get a report.
Well, what is the report gonna do with me?
Like, what is the promise of that report?
What is the specifics of what that'sgoing to for do for me in my business?
Um, we, we wanna talk aboutdeliverables, but like.
(31:23):
What is this actuallydoing for your end client?
Like if you're working with a veterinaryclinic, does it mean they're gonna get
more inbound leads in their website?
'cause your web site desire,and that means more clients
coming through the door.
We wanna be like, you get a newwebsite, and it's like, no, no, no.
It's much
Sydney (she/her) (31:38):
Yeah.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her): People don't pay for that stuff. (31:38):
undefined
They want the end result that solves the
Sydney (she/her) (31:43):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, for sure.
And you have a private podcastthat people can listen to as well.
Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (31:51):
Yeah, so I did this podcast, it's called Staying Solo
Stories as a companion to the book becauseI share some stories in the book, and one
of the pieces of feedback I got with myearly readers is they were like, I wanna
know more about these people and whatthey're doing, their business and like.
We're all really nosy, like welove a good behind the scenes.
So, uh, I interviewedseven different clients.
I share, uh, part of my clientsand friends, and I also share
(32:14):
part of my backstory of likehow I started my business and,
you know, where I got to today.
I don't really talk about thosestories on my main podcasting solos.
So staying solo stories isreally a way to jump into that.
And if you wanna check that?
out, you can go to bsfree business.com/sydney.
Because we wanna make it really simplebecause we know you're listening to a
podcast and I hate that like slash dot
Sydney (she/her) (32:36):
Yeah.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (32:36):
dot.
And if you wanna also check out my mainpodcast, you can go to just Sting Solo
and it's all the places this podcast is.
Sydney (she/her) (32:44):
Perfect.
I'm definitely gonna check that outbecause I do love that you like included
all of those people and I in your book.
And I also am very nosy, soyes, excited to listen to that.
But um, thank you so much for comingon and sharing all of your insights.
I found it really helpful.
And I'm also gonna include a link foryour book in the show notes because
(33:05):
it's probably one of my favorites.
I highly recommend that everyone read it.
It's so good.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her): Yeah, and it's a really good. (33:12):
undefined
introduction to my work because as Ialways say to people like, you know,
the name of my company is BS FreeBusiness, so I am a little sweary
and I'm very like direct, and thatis either for you or not for you.
So it's a low risk way toget to know me a little
Sydney (she/her) (33:26):
Yeah.
And there's just so much goodinformation in there and I love that.
I feel like a lot of what I see.
About business right now is just likebased on vibes, but you have like
all the research and the statisticsand the data to back everything
up and it just makes me so happy.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (33:44):
Thank you.
That was like three chaptersof like setting up my
Sydney (she/her) (33:47):
Yeah.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (33:48):
and that's when people were like, what
was the hard part of the book?
I'm like, that, that took me
Sydney (she/her) (33:52):
Yeah.
It was well worth it.
Yeah.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (33:55):
you.
Sydney (she/her) (33:56):
So yes, I will have the links for everything in the show notes.
And again, thank you so muchfor coming on to talk to me.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her): Thanks so much Sydney. (34:02):
undefined
Do you ever feel like, , everyone is telling you
(00:02):
to scale and hustle harder and buildan empire when all you really want is
a business that pays well and stilllets you pick up your kid from school?
Because same.
And that is why I could not waitto interview Maggie Patterson.
Maggie is the creator of BS Freebusiness and the author of Staying Solo,
which is a book I absolutely devoured,by the way, you have to read it.
(00:23):
, , Sydney (she/her): Maggie hosts two podcasts, staying solo and
Confessions of a micro agency owner,and she also co-hosts the Consumer
Advocacy Podcast called Dupedthe Dark Side of Online Business.
And if you have listened to any ofthose, you know she's a powerhouse
when it comes to calling out toxicmarketing and building a business
rooted in actual integrity.
(00:46):
With 20 plus years experience as a client-based
business owner, Maggie, helps serviceproviders build what she calls a boring
business, AKA profitable, sustainable,
And not built on chronic hustle.
She's one of the most honest, groundedvoices in the industry, and I am so
excited for you to hear this conversation.
Sydney (she/her) (01:37):
Maggie, for people that don't know you, can you tell us a little
bit about your background and what you do?
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (01:43):
So I actually started my business 20 years ago and
it's had lots of twists and turns.
My background's in communications.
Um, I've done a lot of businessconsulting over the years, and now I
run a company called BS Free Business.
I work with small business owners thatrun service businesses, so they're
typically solo, like true solo businessowners doing consulting or creative work.
(02:06):
And then I also work with, um, some verysmall, like what I call Mike Micro Agency.
So they're generally creativesor professional service
providers that have a small team.
Sydney (she/her) (02:16):
Nice.
And what made you want towork with solopreneurs?
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (02:24):
You know, it's one of those things that I think there's a
couple things is that's how I started out.
Like I do have a team now, but themajority of my clients are still
solo service business owners.
It is a really underserved market.
And um, you know, I know you'vebeen reading the book, I talk
about this a lot in the book, isthat like 80% of businesses in the
US or one person businesses yettraditional entrepreneurship advice
(02:47):
is very, very much about like.
Shark tank level or having a brickand mortar when the reality is most
businesses are one person, and mostbusinesses are service business owners.
And what I've really, really found is, um.
That's a really hard place to bewhen you are, especially if you're
on, you know, in the internet,on the online business world.
(03:07):
Like you start to feel lessthan, you start to feel like
your business isn't legitimate.
Like, I have to grow, I have tobuy this really expensive coaching.
I have to do all these things.
So I want to be like the antidoteto that messaging to be like,
Hey, this is a legitimate choice.
It's what the majority of businessowners do, and like, let's talk about
how to make sure that you are not fallinginto traps of burnout or not paying
(03:27):
yourselves or those types of things.
Sydney (she/her) (03:29):
I really love that because it is so easy to
get caught up in those like the.
Bigger, , marketing messages around thatlike grow and scale, which is all like
really great, but it's not super doablefor small teams or like solopreneurs.
And I feel like a lot of it is alsokind of misleading the way people make
(03:50):
certain claims about the , successesthey have had in online businesses.
So I have.
Been really enjoying your book andthe way it talks about all of that.
So highly recommend for anyone listening.
And you also mentioned in thebook that online business world
has gotten kind of culty which Ifound to be really interesting.
(04:11):
Could you talk aboutthat for just a minute?
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (04:16):
Yeah, I mean I talk about this all
the time, but I'm always like.
sorry, I wish it wasn't this way.
But what we really see is, you know,the same way we would see with like
multi-level marketing companies, orwe see in traditional cults we see a
lot of marketing and sales tactics,influence tactics being used in a
way that is designed to shut downyour critical thinking, to convince
(04:39):
you this person has the answersand essentially take your money.
And like something that wewould traditionally label as a.
Scam.
Like, you know, you've got somefriend who's selling some crypto
thing and you're like, oh no, no.
Um, we look at this a littlebit differently because business
owners are hardwired to be hopeful.
We are optimists like we arelike, Hey, I'm gonna be out here.
I'm gonna make my own way.
(05:01):
So we think, well, why couldn't it be me?
Why couldn't I make the all the money?
And we get really lulledinto this sense of, um.
That they have answers, that wedon't have answers, and the cultiness
comes in in terms of some of thefinancial abuses that happen.
I hear these stories all the time andit's, it's really way more prevalent.
(05:21):
Um, the commitment, theway they want you to.
Do things you wouldn't normally do.
Like it's sometimes it's as simpleas a, something less culty, but
not a cult, per se, is you havea business coach that's like, but
this is the only one way to do it.
Like there's one source of truth.
And that to me is where we haveto think like, Hey, you know what?
(05:41):
It's actually more nuanced than that.
I need more context.
I need to take in other things.
I need to think critically aboutwhat's gonna work best for me.
And I think one of the things likeI know your audience is moms, um.
whether you're a mom or you'reneurodivergent or you're caring for,
you know, elderly parents, you are verycapacity conscious and a lot of the
business advice is not built for you.
(06:03):
And then when you combine it withthe culty part of it, that's where
it gets really messy and people startto feel really bad about being able
to make money the way they've mademoney and like, it's just not good.
Sydney (she/her) (06:14):
So I feel like, and I, you've talked about this as well in
your book and also on your podcast thatI've also been listening to the, there's
kind of like these trends in offersas well, like funnels and then courses
and then memberships and like thispromise of like scaling your business.
Is there a better way that peoplewith less capacity, like moms,
(06:37):
caregivers, neurodivergent people,should be kind of focusing their
efforts when it comes to theiroffers and building their businesses.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (06:47):
So this is a really, really good question, and I
think the simplest answer is so manyof the things you just listed off, like
memberships and courses, they're not bad.
But they're not as simple
Sydney (she/her) (06:59):
Mm-hmm.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (06:59):
out to be.
And this is why I'm very pro serviceslike, you know, I think those offers can
be great if you have an audience, butwe don't talk about all the marketing
it takes to fill those things up.
They're like, create your membership.
You'll get a thousand members.
That's like a thousand Who,like where are those people?
Where are we
Sydney (she/her) (07:14):
Right.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (07:14):
from?
It makes no sense.
So, you know, for most people.
Sticking to services and beingreally, really mindful about
like, what are my boundaries?
How many clients can I take on?
How do I communicate upfrontthat this is how I work?
Maybe I don't jump, haveweekly calls with my clients.
You have a permission to slipas a business owner to create
the business in a way that isgoing to work for your real life.
(07:37):
And I always say to my clientslike, is that like they'll
tell me something, I'll go.
Is that gonna actually worklike for your actual life?
'cause you just finished telling me whata train wreck all these things were like
because real life is happening around you.
So you know, if it's not workingfor your real life, it's not
gonna work in your business.
Like, you just need tobe very, very honest.
(07:57):
And I mean, I've been through thiswhen I started my business, you
know, my son was home for quite sometime, then I had part-time daycare.
Then I had, you know, school hours.
I've gone through deaths of parentscaregiving, dealing with my own health.
Like there's always going to be thingsin your life that are impacting your
capacity and you have to accountfor them, and you cannot schedule
(08:18):
every single hour you have availablefor work to do actual client work.
It just doesn't work that way.
Sydney (she/her) (08:23):
Right.
I love that you mentioned that.
I feel like it's very easy,especially when now we're
existing so much and like the on.
Line world and seeing all ofthese oh, you can have what I
have type of marketing posts.
It's very easy to get caught upin that and then realize, no,
I, that's not gonna work for me.
I can't quite have that.
Especially when you mention likefilling those memberships, which
(08:45):
would be lovely to have all thethousand people, but I think it.
It's pretty eye-opening when Italk to people, when I talk to
them specifically about Instagram.
'cause that's what Ido Instagram marketing.
But talking about like the realisticconversion rates of that, I'm like,
not every single follower is gonna buy.
It's like a very, very small percentage.
And even for like email,it's pretty small.
(09:06):
I think we need to have somerealistic expectations there.
Both as business owners, but alsowhen we kind of consume marketing
for other services and likebusiness coaches and all of that.
Something to keep in mind for sure.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (09:22):
I'm glad that you brought that up because I
refer to this as like the , audiencegrowth grift, because it's this idea
of like, it should be so easy, likeevery five, 10,000 followers I'll
have 10,000 clients and it's like no.
The reality is, is probably maybelike 20 of those people, or like 30 of
those people at the most are gonna buy.
You have to have the right offer.
Like, and I think we like membership's.
Such a great example 'causeit's so hyped up right now.
(09:45):
Um.
If you have very limited capacityand you're like, I can only work
12 hours a week because it'swhen my kids are in preschool.
Well, you have to delivereverything in the membership.
You have to do all the marketing.
There's the community management.
Uh, there's so many elementswe're not thinking about.
We're just seeing the path to, oh,I'm gonna make $10,000 a month.
(10:05):
Super easy.
Sydney (she/her) (10:07):
Yeah.
And then if you don't have enough peoplein the membership, it's not not worth
it all the time you're putting into it.
Yeah.
You're not making that money back.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her): Yeah, I mean I've (10:16):
undefined
Sydney (she/her) (10:16):
Yeah.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (10:17):
um, you know, hope and a dream and I was
like, Yeah, no, that's not actuallygonna be profitable at $37 month.
Sydney (she/her) (10:24):
exactly.
Now, like you said, myaudience is mostly moms.
There are people kind of workingin like the, the cracks of the day.
'cause a lot of us have like youngkids that are home during the day.
What do you think they should actuallybe thinking about when building their
offer suite with that kind of capacity?
Are there like certain offersthat are better than others?
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (10:47):
So, you know, I think it's a really good question.
It's gonna depend on skills, experience,who your clients are, but I think there's
a few things for service providers that weneed to focus on more is number one thing.
Generally when people come to meand it seems really, really simple,
and they're like, most serviceproviders are undercharging.
So you're just like, 'cause youstart your business and you're like,
okay, I've got 12 hours a week.
(11:10):
I'm just gonna kind of cramit into the pockets of my day.
Maybe I'm gonna, you know, takes intoswimming lessons on Saturday morning, I've
got that three hours, and you're just kindof cramming it in and you're like, you're
just happy to make anything you can make.
Right?
And then your pricing is just like, not.
Really reflecting your skills, yourtalents, your experience, uh, the
value you deliver to your clients.
(11:30):
So always looking at your pricingfor your offers and not just
settling to be like, you know what?
Well, this is just easy.
Well, you know what?
It's better to have two clientspaying you way more money than five
clients who are underpaying you.
So I think that's the firstthing you always wanna look at.
And one of the things I see withpretty much every service provider
is they're giving away a lot ofstrategic thinking that needs to be
(11:54):
charged for, that needs to be in adifferent way than tactical work.
So I'll give you anexample with Instagram.
Like if you're doing a strategy forsomeone, like you're doing an audit,
a review, and you're making really,you know, a content strategy for them,
that's very different work than yousitting down and creating captions or
Sydney (she/her) (12:12):
Mm-hmm.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (12:13):
So when you think about that, you know, how
do you charge accordingly for that?
And I call it selling the sellthe strategy, because we tend
to merge those all together.
And then we put ourselves in thisvery executional tactical mode
when we're actually doing reallystrategic work for our clients.
Sydney (she/her) (12:29):
that's a really great point.
Um, so if there are mom business owners,'cause something I'm hearing a lot
from people that I work with who are,typically service providers as well.
They're creating, like a lot oflow ticket like digital products.
'cause that's also likea big thing right now.
So they have like lots of thoseand they're feeling like really
(12:50):
overwhelmed with their offer suites.
What do you think thebest way is to simplify?
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (12:55):
Okay.
So like digital products, somethingyou're selling at 37 or 97, like
do sit down and do the math.
How much time does it takefor me to create this?
How much time does it create forme in marketing it like, and if you
look at standard conversion rates,which you kind of alluded to a couple
Sydney (she/her) (13:10):
Hmm.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (13:10):
ago, we're talking about one to 3% of your audience.
So for every, and that's ifyour thing is really dialed in.
It's solving a really specific problem.
It's, you know, just hitting thosepoints and people are like, yes, I
Sydney (she/her) (13:22):
Yeah.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (13:23):
So you've gotta look at, you know.
For me to make a thousand dollars at 97,I've now gotta sell that to 10 people.
You know, how much work do Ineed to do to make that happen?
Or could I have $1,000 a month client?
That's way simpler, way less work, andlike way more predictable than trying to.
(13:45):
Grind it out.
And I think low ticket products arereally, really, really appealing.
But they're really hard.
Like I have been doing ever.
I've done like every type of thingunder the sun over the last 20 years.
And I will say those are the hardest forme to sell and continue to be even with
an audience, even with multiple podcasts,even with all the, you know, podcasts,
collaborations, things I do like, I doa lot of marketing and those are still
(14:09):
really challenging to sell because.
Some people don't wanna do it themselves.
They want you to do it with themand let those people give you money.
Sydney (she/her) (14:16):
I love that perspective.
It's something I'm certainly leaninginto more as I'm having these
own realizations in my business.
Like, man, I'm, I'm doing a lot right nowand need to, need to adjust things so I.
Definitely came across your, your bookat like the right time for me personally,
and I'm really excited 'cause I knowI've talked to a lot of other business
(14:37):
owners that are in the same boat, soI'm really excited for them to hear this
and, and get that information as well.
You've also said that complexityis the enemy of sustainability.
So if people right now arelistening and wondering like, if
I cut things, will I lose money?
Can you.
Talk a bit about how doingless can actually lead to more.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (15:00):
Okay.
It is the classic.
80 20 rule.
You know, we hear this all the time.
of things is not what'sgetting us with routes.
It's the 20%.
So figuring out, like, you know, youwere talking about the low ticket offers.
If I have five low ticket offers,I am now dividing all my focus.
I, everything's getting alittle bit of my attention.
What if I just had one?
And I really, really committed to that.
(15:22):
if you have five services.
What's the one servicethat I know is profitable?
I can deliver the capacity I havethat people easily say yes to.
It feels, you know, it feels likeit's in the sweet spot of what
my clients want and what I wannabe doing with my time and energy.
You know, looking for the simplestthings because we really start to think
about like more is better and actually.
(15:45):
The simplicity of having less offersmeans less marketing, less sales, less
cognitive load for you, less decisions.
Um, and I think we really.
Most entrepreneurs, mostpeople start businesses.
We have lots of ideas.
We're very creative.
We wanna do all the things.
And just learning to have thediscipline to say, you know what?
I'm going to, I'm gonna givethis service, I'm gonna give this
(16:08):
offer the best possible result.
So I'm going to really focus in on that.
And what I find when you do That is.
That's when things really start to humversus being like, oh, you know what?
I've got five offers and they'regetting a little bit, and nothing's
working really, really well, and Imade two sales here, three sales there,
and you're kind of like scraping by.
I think being okay with likeshort term loss of money for
(16:33):
longer term gain is the way to go.
Sydney (she/her) (16:36):
That makes a ton of sense, especially now I'm hearing
and seeing people are needing more.
Of those like touch points before buying,so sticking with something longer that
you already know is working ratherthan constantly switching up would
also be helpful in that aspect as well.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (16:51):
Yeah, and people are often surprised when
I tell them things like, Hey, mycore offer at BS free business,
I've been selling for nine years.
And yes, it's shifted and you know,we've done these little resets and
refinements along the way, but the coreof the offer is the same, and that's
what I've been able to become known for.
Whereas what happens with peopleis you are, if you're constantly
(17:11):
like, I'm talking about TikTok,I'm talking Instagram, I'm talking
about this, I'm talking about that.
Like, it's really hardfor people to keep up.
They're not moving asfast and it's not sticky.
You want to be, you know, like Sydnee,you wanna be known for Instagram.
So if you're all of a sudden like,Hey, I'm gonna, I'm interested in
Pinterest, all of a sudden, like,you are now diluting your brand and
you're doing yourself a disservice.
Sydney (she/her) (17:31):
Yeah, that's super true.
another thing we see a lot ofon like online marketing is like
this idea of freedom in business.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (17:38):
Yes.
, Sydney (she/her) (17:39):
But when we build businesses that kind of like.
Don't give us freedom because we're kindof adhering to all of these other things
that we talked about with like scalingand you know, these trending things.
What do you think building truefreedom actually looks like when
you're designing your offers?
Maggie Patterson (She/Her): This is such a good question. (17:57):
undefined
I mean, there's a lot of facetsto this, but I think when
you think about your offers?
the first thing you need tobasically acknowledge is.
And I, I say thisconstantly to my clients.
They're like, oh, Iwanna start a bookshop.
I'm like, but do you really like ifyou are going to work for yourself, uh,
is this the the best possible version?
(18:18):
I'm not talking about fantasy worldwhere you're making millions sitting
on the beach, because That's not real.
If I'm going to do work, like, youknow, if I'm a designer and I wanna
be a copywriter, 'cause I used todo both an agency, like why am I
doing design if I wanna do copy?
Being very, very clear about like,what are my marketable skills?
Do I wanna be doing this?
(18:39):
That is a really good place tostart because it is really hard
to feel any sense of freedomwhen you hate what you're doing.
So, you know, what is the most acceptableversion of work if I have to work?
Because the reality is, ismost of us do have to work.
We are not independently wealthy.
So I think starting there andthen also recognizing freedom
is not necessarily like, I'm notworking, I aren't doing this.
(19:00):
It's like freedom to beflexible with your schedule.
Freedom to not have to likerespond really quickly.
So it starts with reallylittle things like boundaries.
Communicating those to yourclients, reinforcing those with
your clients, making sure you'renot over-delivering that, you know,
you're not constantly in scope creep.
Um, and a lot of this is gonna, and II'm always reticent to say this, a lot
(19:23):
of this is gonna come down to a lotof practice and also just the mindset,
like am the owner of my businessand I don't work for my clients.
It's the collaboration.
And that everything is up for negotiation.
And if clients can't respect,like, Hey, you know what?
I have to leave at three o'clockto pick up my child from preschool.
not gonna be the rightfit for you as a client.
Sydney (she/her) (19:46):
That's super true.
I love that you mentioned thesmall, like bits of freedom, like
being able to take your time,responding and things like that.
I feel like that's something, uh, kindof take for granted and or like look
over really as freedom instead of whatwe, what I see a lot online being.
On Instagram all the time of like, oh,I'm making sales from like this resort
(20:10):
while I'm like doing nothing, sittingby the beach and stuff like that.
It doesn't always look like that.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her): No, and I think you've gotta (20:16):
undefined
remember that all of that.
is designed to be
Sydney (she/her) (20:20):
Mm-hmm.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her): They're selling you a dream and (20:20):
undefined
that dream is not a, not real.
Like, I hate to say I have an entirepodcast called Duped, where we go
into all of this because that is a,a ploy to get you to buy something.
And I think one of the things, youknow, I always think back like my
son's 21 now, but when he was in schooland I would have to adjust my hours.
(20:43):
I would send an email at the beginningof June and say, Hey everyone, I'm
now moving to my summer schedule, andthat means you may find me working at
non-traditional times, like, I'm notgonna be working between nine to three.
I might be working at 8:00 PMLike I will respond to you within.
And I think freedom to communicate thosethings and have your clients respect that.
(21:04):
That meant I could go to library,I could go to the pool, I could
do what I want and not feel like Iwas being fractured all the time.
And that.
be very different in differentseasons of your life.
But I think those boundaries there andcommunicating 'em really clearly is the
first step to that and is something youwould need to consistently be doing with
Sydney (she/her) (21:23):
Mm-hmm.
I love that you mentioned that.
I literally have like in my emailsignature, I might respond outside of
normal working hours, but do not feel thepressure to respond right away or like
outside your own normal working hours.
Because a lot of the times, yeah, whenmy kids are home, I'm like writing emails
at like 9:00 PM and things like that,but I'd never want other people to feel
(21:44):
like they need to do the same, to likekeep the conversation going or anything.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (21:50):
And this is why I'm a huge fan of Send Later,
Sydney (she/her) (21:52):
Mm.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (21:54):
like I would write things at God knows
what time, and then I'd just belike, I magically go out at 8:32
Sydney (she/her) (21:59):
Yeah, that's a really, that's very smart.
I don't know why I never thoughtof that, but I'll have to use that.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (22:07):
I, I don't want anyone to think
I'm actually working at nine.
If I, if I was
Sydney (she/her) (22:11):
Yeah, that's a good point.
Like, don't expect me to stay uplate working on your, your stuff.
Yeah.
Now I also have seen this kind ofbelief, , that if we are not like working
on scaling or growing, growing your,your business is kind of like stagnant.
So what would you say to likethe mom business owners who are.
(22:33):
Hitting their incomegoals but not scaling.
I guess I'm just gonnakeep using that term.
Who might feel like she's doing somethingwrong because it's not what everyone else
is talking about or doing in business.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (22:47):
So I talk about this a lot in the book,
and I'm sure you've been into thatsection by now, but you know, there's
a difference between growth and scale.
And I come, I've, my background's in techcommunications and we talk about tech
companies scaling, like that's true scale.
Like, and what it means to scaleis I am making more and more
and more of my money without.
(23:08):
At Capital Investment, the way scaleis used, and this is, I'm such a words
person, but it annoys me to no endThe way that this is a misused term.
The majority of what businessesare doing in the online business
realm and what they're talkingabout, it's not scale, it's growth.
Number one, is not something that mostbusinesses are ever going to really
(23:30):
achieve, uh, as a solo business owner.
So if you're making $5,000 amonth and you're like, I'm good.
That's okay.
Like there's nothing wrong withthat because I think the one thing
that happens, you get kind of,it chips away at you over time.
And the reality is, is like most of yourfriends are looking at you going, I'd
like to make $5,000 a month and havea flexible schedule, or whatever that
(23:53):
number is, and then getting really clearfor you, like, what is that number?
What is enough?
for some people that's mightbe a thousand dollars a month.
For some people thatmay be $10,000 a month.
It's not about the number.
It's what that number means to youand your family and for your life.
And there's no magic number that makes youmore or less legit as a business owner.
(24:14):
So I, you know, so many timesI talk to people and they're
like, I'm just making it.
I'm like, do you know you makemore than most business owners?
They're like, what?
Like people have totally lost the plot.
So just know that whateveryou're doing is good enough and
you need to figure out what.
What that enough number isfor you and plan from there.
It's totally normal to wannagrow, but growing is not doubling
(24:35):
your business every year.
Sometimes it might be, Hey, you know what?
I have a client 10%less and made 11% more.
That was a win.
Sydney (she/her) (24:45):
Yeah, that's a big win.
And you kind of mentioned this,and I know you mentioned it in your
book, but the amount of money solobusiness owners make isn't as much.
Like, it's not a ton.
So if you're not fe, if you feel likeyou're not hitting those like 10 K
months or whatever, you hear everyonehear everyone like talking about or
bragging about online they're, they'renot, it's like the actual number was
(25:10):
what was like 39,000 or something.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her): I think it's like $46,000. (25:13):
undefined
In the US naming, it varies bycountry, but there is consistent
research that shows a few things isnumber one, the majority of businesses
never make a hundred thousand dollars
Sydney (she/her) (25:25):
Hmm.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (25:25):
Like, and that's, that's just the numbers.
Bear that out.
Especially if you're a woman, awoman owned business, especially if
you are a woman of color, like thosenumbers go down and down and down.
So, and that's not to say you can'tdefy that and do better than that.
But also like when someone says,oh, I'm making 10 KA month.
Just know that they maybe10 made 10 K one month.
(25:48):
And maybe it's 'cause clientsall pay their invoices at once.
Like I've had some reallybig months in my business.
But if I was to sit down and tellyou all the reasons those happened.
And what was happening on eitherside of that, it would, you would
be like, oh, so just know peopleare a little fast and loose with
how they talk about their numbers.
And that's why, to me, as a consumer,I look at anyone who's using, um,
(26:11):
an income claim to say, I madethis and I can teach you too.
Or, you know, I, you are gonnamake $10,000 a month or whatever.
I, I approach that with a lot ofskepticism and I don't do business
with those people because I don'twanna be deceived in that kind of way.
Sydney (she/her) (26:26):
Yeah, I feel the same way.
I.
I feel like so many people aremaking those income claims online
now, and every time I see it, I'vejust kind of cringe a little bit.
Um, and just because you like that,not you specifically, sorry, that
person did it for like their business,doesn't mean they can necessarily
get you those exact same results.
(26:47):
Because like you said earlier,there's a lot of nuance, um, in
everyone's situation and, andconsiderations and things like that.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (26:56):
Yeah.
and there's never, there'snever the full story.
And you know, like I, you think of someof the biggest names in the online space.
Like, they're like, oh,I've made $32 million total.
Yeah, they started in 2011.
It was a very different world.
Like I remember that world.
Facebook ads were like a dollar,like that's not reality now.
(27:18):
And I think especially now in 2025,like we are navigating a lot of things
we don't have a playbook for in termsof the economy, the geopolitical
situation, there's constant crisises.
You know, people are veryconscious about their budget.
'cause you know, if you've been tobuy anything at the grocery store,
you know what that looks like.
So your business is now operating againstall of those things in the background.
(27:40):
So what worked even a year agois going to shift and change.
Sydney (she/her) (27:44):
Yeah, that's super important to keep in mind right now.
There's, there's a ton, tongoing on, um, and it definitely
affects, um, buyer behavior.
So, definitely don't feel bad ifyour months look different than they
used to, or you're not getting those10 K months that you see online.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (28:04):
Yeah, and I think the reality is is
I actually wrote an email to mylist this morning about this.
It's like, yes, it's the economy,but there's not, there's a lot of
other factors and what we all haveto look at as business owners is,
okay, here's the bigger backdrop, andyou can choose, like you can just.
Be like, oh, it's the economy,and be okay with that.
Or you can start to look at thingsvery strategically in your business.
(28:25):
Friends, I'm 20 years in, I have hadto do a lot of soul searching and a lot
of little refinements, little resetsin my business over the last year
to continue to stay relevant and tocontinue to, you know, hit the numbers
I have been able to consistently hit
Sydney (she/her) (28:40):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's a really great point.
, If someone's listening right now andthey're feeling just like completely
stuck in like that huy version of theirbusiness where they're just spending
all their time, um, and not gettingmuch return, what is the first thing you
would want them to like do or rethink?
Maggie Patterson (She/Her): I want them to go back to the (29:01):
undefined
very, very, very beginning and.
If you are in a situation, let's say youhave a service and I'll use Instagram
'cause that's what you do, Sydnee is maybeyou're doing Instagram consulting or you
know, social media management, you know,and you are not able to get traction.
Maybe you're getting, you know,I start to diagnose the problem.
(29:22):
Do I have anyone that'sactually interested?
No.
Okay, so that's telling me a few things.
Maybe I have a messaging problem, maybeI'm not talking about the right problems.
Maybe I need to positionmyself like more of an expert.
Um, maybe I'm not doing enough marketing.
That's a really common one I seewith service business owners.
They're like sitting aroundtwiddling their thumbs.
They're like, I don't have enough clients.
And I'm like, what are you doing about it?
(29:45):
Like, you know, business is not magic.
It comes down to some veryfundamental strategic things that
I talk about something in thebook called The Strategy Stack.
So, you know, really goingthrough what are the problems,
what is your positioning?
What are your packages?
What are, you know, yourpromotional marketing strategy?
What is your pricing?
All of those things haveto be working together.
(30:07):
And if you are not able to makesales or you're just not even getting
any interest, you need to go backto the very beginning and start
to figure out why aren't working.
And a lot of times it comesdown to a lack of specificity.
Everyone wants to be for everyone,and that's not how it works.
The more specific you can get, the better.
I saw this when I went from, you know,working with solo business owners to
(30:29):
micro business owners, to micro agencyowners and solo service business owners.
Many creatives and consultants,people are scared to do that.
But the more specific you can be tocall those people in, the better it
gets because people go, oh, that's me.
Yes, I have that problem.
Let me
Sydney (she/her) (30:45):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's a really great point.,
I find that when I get more specific,not only in like niching down, uh,
if you wanna call it that, but inthe transformation a specific offer
provides is also incredibly helpful.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (31:03):
Yeah, I'm, oh, I could talk about that one
all day because it, like, people willbe like, what they do is they focus
on like, you're gonna get a report.
Well, what is the report gonna do with me?
Like, what is the promise of that report?
What is the specifics of what that'sgoing to for do for me in my business?
Um, we, we wanna talk aboutdeliverables, but like.
(31:23):
What is this actuallydoing for your end client?
Like if you're working with a veterinaryclinic, does it mean they're gonna get
more inbound leads in their website?
'cause your web site desire,and that means more clients
coming through the door.
We wanna be like, you get a newwebsite, and it's like, no, no, no.
It's much
Sydney (she/her) (31:38):
Yeah.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her): People don't pay for that stuff. (31:38):
undefined
They want the end result that solves the
Sydney (she/her) (31:43):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, for sure.
And you have a private podcastthat people can listen to as well.
Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (31:51):
Yeah, so I did this podcast, it's called Staying Solo
Stories as a companion to the book becauseI share some stories in the book, and one
of the pieces of feedback I got with myearly readers is they were like, I wanna
know more about these people and whatthey're doing, their business and like.
We're all really nosy, like welove a good behind the scenes.
So, uh, I interviewedseven different clients.
I share, uh, part of my clientsand friends, and I also share
(32:14):
part of my backstory of likehow I started my business and,
you know, where I got to today.
I don't really talk about thosestories on my main podcasting solos.
So staying solo stories isreally a way to jump into that.
And if you wanna check that?
out, you can go to bsfree business.com/sydney.
Because we wanna make it really simplebecause we know you're listening to a
podcast and I hate that like slash dot
Sydney (she/her) (32:36):
Yeah.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (32:36):
dot.
And if you wanna also check out my mainpodcast, you can go to just Sting Solo
and it's all the places this podcast is.
Sydney (she/her) (32:44):
Perfect.
I'm definitely gonna check that outbecause I do love that you like included
all of those people and I in your book.
And I also am very nosy, soyes, excited to listen to that.
But um, thank you so much for comingon and sharing all of your insights.
I found it really helpful.
And I'm also gonna include a link foryour book in the show notes because
(33:05):
it's probably one of my favorites.
I highly recommend that everyone read it.
It's so good.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her): Yeah, and it's a really good. (33:12):
undefined
introduction to my work because as Ialways say to people like, you know,
the name of my company is BS FreeBusiness, so I am a little sweary
and I'm very like direct, and thatis either for you or not for you.
So it's a low risk way toget to know me a little
Sydney (she/her) (33:26):
Yeah.
And there's just so much goodinformation in there and I love that.
I feel like a lot of what I see.
About business right now is just likebased on vibes, but you have like
all the research and the statisticsand the data to back everything
up and it just makes me so happy.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (33:44):
Thank you.
That was like three chaptersof like setting up my
Sydney (she/her) (33:47):
Yeah.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (33:48):
and that's when people were like, what
was the hard part of the book?
I'm like, that, that took me
Sydney (she/her) (33:52):
Yeah.
It was well worth it.
Yeah.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her) (33:55):
you.
Sydney (she/her) (33:56):
So yes, I will have the links for everything in the show notes.
And again, thank you so muchfor coming on to talk to me.
Maggie Patterson (She/Her): Thanks so much Sydney. (34:02):
undefined
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