August 5, 2025 • 30 mins
First, we discuss National Couscous Day (not to be confused with National Quinoa Day...). Please read that out loud a few times so that you can join in our fun and delight in saying the word "couscous"!
Then, Rafael Del Castillo joins the More Math for More People podcast to share his fascinating journey from CPM math teacher to CPM Educational Program's Executive Director. His story reveals how a classroom transformation sparked an entire leadership philosophy.
After moving from Miami to Seattle and switching from high school to middle school teaching, Rafael discovered his traditional methods weren't working. Through CPM, he found a revolutionary approach that transformed not just his classroom but his entire concept of leadership. "When you deploy a CPM pedagogy, you really share your power as a teacher," Rafael explains, describing how this collaborative model led him to adopt servant leadership principles that have guided his career.
The parallels between effective classrooms and effective organizations are striking. Just as CPM teachers distribute authority and facilitate rather than dictate, Rafael applies these same principles in leading. His approach focuses on "listening to learn, not listening to respond" – developing the talents of everyone around him while maintaining a strategic vision.
Today's educational landscape demands urgent evolution. The merging of curriculum development organizations with educational technology groups signals a fundamental shift in how we approach teaching and learning. While students may be comfortable using technology, Rafael cautions they remain "digital naives" who need guidance on responsible use. As education and technology continue their rapid integration, CPM's collaborative principles become increasingly relevant.
Rafael's journey demonstrates how pedagogical philosophies can transform leadership across various contexts. His story reminds us that whether in classrooms or boardrooms, the most effective leaders are those who empower others while maintaining a clear strategic vision. Listen now to discover how these principles might transform your own approach to leadership and learning.
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The More Math for More People Podcast is produced by CPM Educational Program.
Learn more at CPM.org
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
You are listening to the More Math for More People
podcast.
An outreach of CPM educationalprogram Boom.
An outreach of CPM EducationalProgram.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Boom, I can't believe it's August already.
It's crazy, yeah, so today'sthe 5th of August, dog Days of
Summer are here.
Yes, I don't know what thatmeans actually Dog Days of
Summer.
I'm going to look that up later.
I don't either, I guess.
Okay, I mean dogs Because meansactually Dog Days of Summer.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
I'm going to look that up later.
I don't either, I guess,because today is not the Dog
Days of Summer.
No, it's not.
This is.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
National Dog Days of Summer.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
We're in the Dog Days of Summer.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
I don't know what that really means.
It's one of those things that Iknow what it means, but I don't
know what it means.
Okay, so it is August 5ththough.
So it is August 5th though.
So what is our national?
Speaker 1 (01:03):
day today, national Couscous Day.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Couscous.
Such a fun.
That's a fun word to sayCouscous.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
I like it.
Are you a couscous fan?
I don't know that I am.
Like I don't ever orderanything.
I don't crave couscous.
You don't crave couscous.
I kind of know what it is.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
You kind of know what it is.
You kind of know what it is.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Yeah, but I don't really seek it out.
How about you?
Do you like the couscous?
I think?
Speaker 2 (01:30):
couscous.
Like I went through a phasedefinitely where I ate a lot
more couscous.
I think it has like some appealto it.
It's also interesting becauseit's like it's not really like a
pasta and it's not like it's agrain, but it's a funny grain
because it has those littlecurled up sprouty guys in it.
I don't know.
It's interesting to me and Ithink that it can be made into
(01:51):
things that are delicious, andthen also I think it gets
overdone.
You know, like everything'scouscous salad.
You could get a couscous saladat any deli, in any grocery
store in most of America.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
And it would probably taste the same.
Probably, I mean the spicesmaybe change.
I was gonna say, like thespices probably put it almost
the same.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
They have like a little bit of olives in.
It'll have some like whateverflavors, I don't know.
I feel like they're, they'revery uh.
I feel like like there was athing like maybe, oh wait, am I
thinking of quinoa?
Uh-oh, I think I might havethis whole thing talking about
quinoa.
Now I'm confused Now.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
I don't know the difference.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Wait, I think.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
I'm thinking of quinoa.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Oh no Well, which is healthier quinoa or couscous?
Speaker 2 (02:38):
I don't know, because now I'm confused about them.
Oh, quinoa is like planty ones.
Yeah, quinoa has completeproteins.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
So therefore it's healthier, more healthy than
couscous.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Both quinoa and couscous are both fun to see the
AI overview tells me they'reboth versatile grains or
grain-like substances which iskind of a funny thing to say.
Couscous is a processed grainproduct, typically made from
semolina, while quinoa is a seed, technically, and often
prepared and consumed like agrain.
(03:14):
Oh yeah, couscous is the onethat's more like pasta, so I
don't think I eat it very muchanymore.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Fair enough.
What about?
When was couscous invented?
Speaker 2 (03:26):
invented.
I'm kidding, how about is it?
It's kind of like amediterranean thing, right?
So I would think that couscoushas been around for a long time,
but I don't know.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
It says its existence would be unlikely if it was
earlier than 6,000 BC.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Its existence would be unlikely if it was earlier
than yes, because it's.
So if we went back in time, to6,001 BC, its existence would be
unlikely in that time frame?
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Yes, that would be unlikely, because it's made from
ground wheat.
Like you were just saying, it'sprocessed.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
So we have the processing ability.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
It says it got to the Middle East because Christians
kicked out Muslims and Jews fromSpain, and so they brought the
couscous to the Middle East.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Okay, I know.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
That is interesting.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
It was no interesting , I'm just thinking about that
I'm like wouldn't, we like thetime frames and different things
of that Totally.
What do you think couscous isbest paired with Wine?
Speaker 2 (04:39):
No couscous.
I think couscous would be goodwith like white meats.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
I think that maybe says something about what you
would like to pair it with Cause.
This says it pairs well withalmost everything.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
I mean, that's sort of a like you know, that's one
of those questions there's likewhat does it pair best with?
Oh, trick everything.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
All of the above.
Yes, you are correct.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
I mean, I think couscous has a better, like a
slightly better flavor thanquinoa though this wasn't
couscous versus quinoa day, butnow it is since.
I got confused.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Fair enough, fair enough.
How do you think you wouldcelebrate Couscous Day?
Speaker 2 (05:27):
I might have some actual couscous, since I haven't
had any for quite a long time.
I know that I have made it inthe past, but maybe I'll.
What are you going to do tocelebrate National Couscous Day?
Speaker 1 (05:42):
I'm enjoying saying couscous, as we mentioned before
, so I might just go aroundsaying it, but the suggested
activities are similar to yourcelebration.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
You could eat couscous, that seems kind of
obvious you could go to arestaurant and eat couscous.
Also obvious.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Or you could try a new recipe with couscous and
then eat it.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
I think that's pretty much you know, but there's not
much else you could do withcouscous other than eat it.
I mean, I don't even think itwould be good for like pasta.
Necklaces or art, like othersemolina products might be
couscous Not just yeah, allright, well it.
Art like other simulitaproducts might be couscous not
just yeah, all right.
Well, it's national couscousday.
We're gonna say say it at leasttwo more times, so please go
(06:27):
and enjoy, okay.
So I'm really excited thatwe're here today with Rafael Del
(06:47):
Castillo.
Yeah, he's our new boss's boss,joel.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Oh, I actually knew that I acted surprised, but I
knew that that was the case.
Oh, that's good Because if youwere surprised, I'd be worried.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
So Raphael is the incoming executive director for
CPM and we welcome you to thepodcast today, Raphael.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Yeah, welcome.
Thank you, misty.
Thank you Joel.
I guess I'm the boss of allbosses, I suppose.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Oh, I like that.
The boss of all bosses.
Boss squared Well, at least itmight be more of a bosses.
So I'm sure people other thanknowing you're the boss of all
bosses people might wonder whois this Raphael person?
Yeah, so we thought we'd startwith you.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
Just tell us a little bit about yourself and how you
got to here.
Yeah, yeah, I love thatquestion, so I could start from
the very beginning.
You know a small boy comingfrom Cuba to the United States.
I'm going to fast forward justa little bit and talk about my
CPM journey, when it startedwith me as a teacher.
So who am I.
I am originally, if you will, amath teacher math and science
(07:53):
for many years, about 20 years,before I started my leadership
journey that led me to thisposition as the executive
director, and CPM bothtransformed my classroom and my
practice in teaching mathematics, but it also put me on a road
to leadership.
So I have CPM to thank foropening my eyes, as a classroom
(08:15):
teacher, to what is possiblewhen you extend yourself, you
know, to leading a department,leading a school, leading a
nonprofit.
But you know, I very often kindof revert back to that teacher
mode.
I think, when you are in therole of listening to the people
around you, whether they're inkindergarten or full-grown
(08:36):
adults and sometimes it's hardto tell which is which, whether
they're in kindergarten orfull-grown adults, and sometimes
it's hard to tell which iswhich that if you listen to
folks and you approachleadership as teaching, you know
teaching and listening to learnand to understand, instead of
necessarily listening toformulate a response.
So that's just one gem that Itook from the classroom to my
(08:58):
leadership Right now.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Where did that journey start?
Oh gosh, geographical spot.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Well, we had my spouse and I moved from Miami to
Seattle, which my mom alwayssaid is as far as you can go
geographically from Miamiwithout you know, staying in the
continental United States.
So it was a big move, yeah,along many parameters, and it
was my introduction to middleschool.
So I had always taught math andscience in the high school, you
(09:26):
know, and I fancied myself apretty good teacher.
I think kids would say I wasokay.
But I feel like I got so muchbetter.
I almost want to go back andsay sorry I wish I'd known then.
But I think I was pretty decent.
And then I moved into middleschool because we arrived here
in January and so I really waslooking to start a position
(09:47):
mid-year which I'd never donebefore and I landed at Villa
Academy here in Seattle K-8school, fabulous school, fun
kids and I was charged withteaching the eighth graders
algebra and all the things I hadaccumulated you know, tips,
tricks, strategies in the highschool just did not work.
(10:09):
In middle school.
They were completelyunimpressed with my resume.
In fact they really needed adifferent kind of engagement and
I realized almost immediatelythat this had to be different
and I went out looking for adifferent curricular approach
and I ran across CPM at an NCTMconference, the National
(10:32):
Conference for Teachers ofMathematics, and I couldn't
close my eyes and remember ChrisMichaels was there at that
booth and we started aconversation and, long story
short, I ended up bringing thatto the classroom with, I think,
great success, particularly forthe students.
I ended up being a teacherleader, ultimately Washington
State regional coordinator, anda few years down the road of my
(10:56):
leadership journey I did serveon the board for a bit.
So coming to CPM in this rolefeels very much like coming home
.
It's very much like a fullcircle moment Nice.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Nice.
So I love how you connectedyour move to leadership with
really the changes you saw inyour classroom.
I'm wondering if you can, youknow, elaborate on that a little
bit around how you see maybeyour leadership style coming in
as executive director to youknow, to that those changes and
(11:27):
kind of CPM philosophies.
Right, how do those meshtogether?
Speaker 3 (11:30):
That's a really good question.
That's intriguing.
So I have very much adopted theserpent leadership model.
It's a gentleman namedGreenleaf put it together quite
some time ago and it's thisnotion that leadership is about
developing the best in the folksaround you, right, and it's
reciprocal in developing thebest in you.
(11:51):
So the servant leader reallylooks to maximize human talent
by coaching again, listening tolearn, not always listening to
respond or necessarily evendirect.
So that servant leadership model, I have to believe was
influenced by my CPM experience,because when you deploy a CPM
(12:15):
pedagogy into the classroom, youreally share your power as a
teacher, right.
You are no longer the source ofknowledge and information,
there are multiple sources andall of a sudden you see what's
possible by putting leadershipat each table right and
exploring the different wayskids can lead the group and add
value to the group.
(12:36):
So certainly that framework iswhat I took into leadership and
whether you're talking about youknow a group, five groups of
four, or you know sevendepartments, I think that a
similar approach can be takenand I took it.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
And I think it worked .
Speaker 3 (12:52):
I think it worked because I remember once upon a
time a direct report sort ofcharacterized my leadership as
as you don't leave anyone behind, and I really I took that to
heart and I really remember thatbecause that is my intention.
It doesn't mean, you know, youhave rose-colored classes all
the time and you have aPollyanna approach, but you
really do bring the whole groupforward and try as best you can
(13:15):
to develop all those people.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
You had mentioned that you worked with other
nonprofits and led othernonprofits.
Was that outside of education?
And then I'm curious did theCPM help translate you in those
fields too?
Speaker 3 (13:31):
Yeah, I would say.
I mean they were definitelyeducation adjacent.
So the two nonprofits I ledwere Rainier Scholars, which is
a college access organizationhere in Seattle modeled after
Prep for Prep in New York.
It's this notion of bringingfamilies of color, kids of color
, you know, to and throughcollege with a very
comprehensive program.
So definitely adjacent.
(13:52):
And I also had the wonderfulopportunity to be the interim
executive director of the KidsDiscovery Museum here on
Bainbridge Isle where we live.
It's a museum for little ones,magical.
If you're ever on the islandyou got to visit, whether you're
a kid or not.
To be honest, tell them I sentyou and I would say that because
(14:12):
they were education adjacent.
It was pretty easy, you know, tosee that.
But I will home in ongovernance.
You know the board structurethat is present in all across.
You know schools, nonprofits,to realize that the CPM way, if
(14:37):
you will, is something to belooked at.
I'm not saying that theydirectly took it from CPM the
way I did, but boards arerecognizing that there's a bunch
of smart people around the room, around the table, and we're
not always maximizing theirtalents right.
Sometimes it's like you're in aboardroom and anybody who's
been in a boardroom knows, it'soften a very directional flow of
information and all of a sudden, all these really talented,
(14:59):
smart people who you'verecruited to your board are
generally silent and they'rereceiving information and
occasionally asking a question,and there is a real move toward
a concept called generativeboards where you take advantage
of the people in that room, youfind other ways to inform and,
yeah, sometimes it means workingin groups and some boardrooms.
(15:23):
Today you'd walk in and you'dsay, well, just like a CPM
classroom, that's cool.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
It's really interesting.
As you're talking about that, Iwas just having this connection
for myself around around,there's so much that is
happening in our world around.
I'm gonna like use some reallyglobal term, you know, like
general terms here around, likea western model of sort of top
down you know who's in chargeand what's happening and then a
(15:49):
more collaborative someone, say,a more indigenous model of
equals at a table and things.
And I, just as you were talkingabout that, I was really
hearing that that connection aswell happening, hopefully, you
know, in CPM and continuing inCPM and in the rest of the world
and what you're describing.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
And even the even ourrectangular approach to board
meetings right versus a circleright.
Just experimenting with adifferent configuration in
boardrooms or departmentmeetings or organizational
meetings.
Reframing the environment canoften just reframe the
(16:29):
conversation.
Again, very CPM Like what arewe about?
We're about reframing andreconstructing the classroom and
, uh, the relationship of thestudent with the teacher and
with each other.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
So cool and and I want to shift from that a little
bit because I I love whatyou're talking about with the
like sort of like shared mathauthority we're trying to create
in our classrooms right, andthat same idea of like,
according to some, like sharedleadership, right, or shared
direction and decision-making,however that might look in a
company and in the classroom youhave the teacher who's holding
(17:05):
the vision, who's holding thedirection, who knows where we're
trying to go or where they wantto try to go, and so how do you
like, how do you talk aboutthat parallel?
A little bit now, for youAbsolutely yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
No, I mean, I'll start with my role as a teacher
and how it transformed.
It wasn't just about futureleadership, it was in the moment
, my expanded capacity to dothat direction, finding like to
provide that compass.
Suddenly, I wasn't stuck in aplace of conveying information,
(17:38):
but I could walk around, do alot of that, listening to learn
right, and then make strategicmoves for the classroom, for the
students, both as a whole group, individuals at different
tables.
So that is really you've nailedit.
This is the heart of servantleadership, which is that you
need to find a way to distributethat authority, power,
(18:00):
responsibility, accountability,they all come together so that
then you have that time, youknow, to look beyond the horizon
, to look around the mirrors,and you're not doing it alone,
but you are, as the leader,right, as the compass, charged
with that, and often you knowour plates get really full and
we start getting super busy andyou want to make sure there's
(18:21):
someone and some folks who arelooking around corners and
looking ahead.
So, yeah, spot on.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Yeah, for me, the parallel with that in the
classroom was when I stoppedgrading everyone's homework,
stopped looking at every singleproblem all my kids had ever
done and giving it a score, Likeyou guys are going to do this
now.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Yeah, look how much more time I have and that has
that has huge, that there's adirect connection there to goal
setting evaluation and you, youknow success plans for for folks
, right?
so, instead of grading everypaper, you know, starting with a
set of uh, self-generated goalsthat tie to some organizational
(19:06):
goals.
I found that to be reallypowerful and and the same way,
we in the classroom discoveredthat sometimes kids are harder
on themselves and theirteammates than we predict.
Individuals, when empoweredwith goal setting and with a
success plan, are often holdingthemselves to a very, very high
bar.
(19:26):
Know and leadership partner andit's like, okay, it's us, us
against the goals, kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
Instead of instead of this you know this
unfortunately fraughtsupervisory structure that we
have, particularly in thewestern part of of our globe, uh
, that is often not veryproductive interesting yeah I'm
wondering about, because youhave this past history of CPM
and now it's been continuous,maybe or whatever, but what back
(19:59):
then stands out to you as stillbeing the same, or what from
back then to now feels different, just as a?
Speaker 3 (20:08):
coming in and out no-transcript, started teaching
(21:04):
CPM way, right.
It was seen as extraordinarybecause it was right.
I would argue and this is agood thing that pedagogy,
schools of education, all of thework toward preparing teachers,
has become more CPM, like Right, like we are less extraordinary
now because teachers are doingthings like what we've been
(21:26):
discussing Right Groups, youknow, different strategies
toward assessment and so on, andso I think that's both timeless
, like we are still anextraordinary approach, but less
extraordinary relative to therest of the world.
So what's the next leap for us?
And then, you know, it would bekind of blind to not point out
(21:48):
that the advances of technologyare now like spiking.
I mean, I was at that sameschool, bill Academy, I was part
of one of the first one-to-onelaptop programs.
And I'll never forget, becausethe laptops, of course, were
pretty clunky, but the device toconnect was about the size of a
brick.
I kid you, not that you wouldattach to the laptop and then,
(22:11):
because it was ahundred-year-old school, not
that you would attach to thelaptop, and then, because it was
a hundred year old school, thecords to connect the laptop ran
up into the ceiling.
So I want you to just hold thatimage in your mind, that
dystopian image of the clunkycomputers, the brick and wires
extending up to the ceiling.
(22:33):
And I say that because at thetime we were like we are on the
cutting edge and look where weare now, and I think you, it is
both exciting and it is also ourjob as as as educators to to
curate that, to curate thattechnology in classrooms that we
believe should be studentcentered.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Absolutely so.
When we were chatting beforethis, we talked about how the
headline could be, you know,seamless transition, laughing
about how that would not be thebest headline.
You know, nothing happened.
It's not news, and so we'vetalked a little bit, I feel like
how you see yourself movinginto this position, how it fits
(23:15):
for you, etc.
You also mentioned that youfeel a sense, or maybe there is
a sense of some urgency and Iwonder if you could speak to
that a little bit as we movetoward the end here.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, seamless transition
headline, not so much, but thereis a sense of urgency, and it's
not just for us, this isn'tjust CPM that needs to, you know
, pick up its pace.
Education is being transformedin a pretty significant way.
Ascd and ISTE, these are twoorganizations, one curriculum
development organization and theother ed tech organization, and
(23:57):
I think here's a headline foryou.
These two organizations gotmarried essentially and they are
moving forward together intheir conferencing, in their
membership, all of the above.
So that to me really issomething to pay attention to.
The curriculum developmentfolks have acknowledged in a big
(24:18):
way that we must developcurriculum with ed tech in mind,
with technology in mind.
And on the flip side, ed tech,you know, and I'm making a very
broad statement here but ed techrecognizes that if they are
putting tools into the hands ofteachers, they need to be
informed by good curricularchoices and good curricular
(24:41):
frameworks.
Right, so that is a worthyheadline and that presents the
urgency for an organization likeCPM.
So CPM has always beeninnovative, creative in its
solutions and, as I said earlier, we are less extraordinary.
A lot of folks are bringingcreativity and really
interesting solutions into thatcombo curricular development, ed
(25:03):
tech world, interestingsolutions into that combo
curricular development, ed techworld but we do have those
timeless elements, right.
We are really good atunderstanding how students learn
mathematics.
We have structures thattranscend curricular frameworks
and transcend tech solutions.
So we're still a key player inthis conversation, but it's
going to move really quickly.
We're still a key player inthis conversation, but it's
going to move really quickly.
(25:24):
Another thing that struck me atthe conference were these two
amazing fourth graders who wereon Zoom presenting to about 100
teachers Wow, and a couple ofthings.
They were completely nonplussed, right.
So they've been using thistechnology in a pretty seamless
and invisible way, like youcould tell that they were there
(25:47):
to show the teachers all thecool stuff they can do with this
tool.
They were not there tohighlight the tool itself, and
it was so evident and sointeresting to watch that, and I
think that's where we're at towatch that, and I think that's
where we're at.
We're going to be catching uphence the sense of urgency with
(26:07):
the students who are going touse these tools.
They're already using thesetools and it's our
responsibility to help guide andcurate this thing.
I don't know if you rememberthe term digital natives.
For a while, it was like allthe younger generations were
digital natives, and while itwas like all the younger
generations were digital natives.
And we old folk like me, youknow, were digital immigrants,
(26:31):
and I then encountered adifferent framework in that
these young people are digitalnaives.
Just because they're facilewith the technology itself does
not mean they understand all therepercussions of using it.
You know questions of privacy,questions of like what's, what's
what?
You know, what are the otherfactors that come into play so
(26:54):
we can't default our curationand our engagement with students
and techno.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
I can see that being part of CPM too, with our
collaboration, with our how howto help people understand how to
communicate, cause, like yousaid, we are, uh, who are here
now of a generation where wekind of had to learn.
We, we learned skills andstrategies to communicate with
each other in a different way.
(27:22):
Now we have technology thatstudents are engaged in and
understand, but they need tolearn how to learn, not the
rules, but the way to interactwith each other that are
appropriate, and so we have toget knowledgeable about that
Well and rapidly.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
The intergenerational flow of knowledge now happens
like in a decade, versus onceupon a time, maybe a century,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Well, that's about all we have time for today, I
think, and we have reallyenjoyed talking with you, rafael
, and we are planning to talkwith you again on some frequency
.
We'll have some moreconversaciones con Rafael later
on, so thanks for being with us.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
You know where to find me.
We do, we usually find youpretty easily.
A pleasure.
Thank you for having meAbsolutely.
Thank you you're probably notgoing to be able to use it, but
(28:35):
it's okay well, who cares?
Speaker 2 (28:37):
okay?
Speaker 1 (28:37):
so here's your on the spot the question do you have a
favorite math joke that you'dlike to share?
Speaker 3 (28:43):
I do, I do.
It's a very corny groany joke.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
So it's.
What does a mermaid wear?
I don't know, what does amermaid?
Speaker 2 (29:04):
wear, I don't know, algebra, algebra.
So that is all we have time foron this episode of the More
Math for More People podcast.
If you are interested inconnecting with us on social
media, find our links in thepodcast description, and the
music for the podcast wascreated by Julius H and can be
found on pixabaycom.
(29:24):
So thank you very much, julius.
Join us in two weeks for thenext episode of More Math for
More People.
What day will that be, joel?
Speaker 1 (29:34):
It'll be August 26th, national Toilet Paper Day.
I personally appreciate toiletpaper every day, but I can put
myself in a mindset where I'mthinking of what if I didn't
have toilet paper, and thatmakes me appreciate it that much
more.
So we'll talk about why wecelebrate National Toilet Paper
(29:54):
Day, the history behind ToiletPaper Day, and we can all
appreciate having toilet paper.
So looking forward to havingyou join us on August 26th.
We'll see you then, thank you.
You are listening to the More Math for More People
podcast.
An outreach of CPM educationalprogram Boom.
An outreach of CPM EducationalProgram.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Boom, I can't believe it's August already.
It's crazy, yeah, so today'sthe 5th of August, dog Days of
Summer are here.
Yes, I don't know what thatmeans actually Dog Days of
Summer.
I'm going to look that up later.
I don't either, I guess.
Okay, I mean dogs Because meansactually Dog Days of Summer.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
I'm going to look that up later.
I don't either, I guess,because today is not the Dog
Days of Summer.
No, it's not.
This is.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
National Dog Days of Summer.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
We're in the Dog Days of Summer.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
I don't know what that really means.
It's one of those things that Iknow what it means, but I don't
know what it means.
Okay, so it is August 5ththough.
So it is August 5th though.
So what is our national?
Speaker 1 (01:03):
day today, national Couscous Day.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Couscous.
Such a fun.
That's a fun word to sayCouscous.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
I like it.
Are you a couscous fan?
I don't know that I am.
Like I don't ever orderanything.
I don't crave couscous.
You don't crave couscous.
I kind of know what it is.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
You kind of know what it is.
You kind of know what it is.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Yeah, but I don't really seek it out.
How about you?
Do you like the couscous?
I think?
Speaker 2 (01:30):
couscous.
Like I went through a phasedefinitely where I ate a lot
more couscous.
I think it has like some appealto it.
It's also interesting becauseit's like it's not really like a
pasta and it's not like it's agrain, but it's a funny grain
because it has those littlecurled up sprouty guys in it.
I don't know.
It's interesting to me and Ithink that it can be made into
(01:51):
things that are delicious, andthen also I think it gets
overdone.
You know, like everything'scouscous salad.
You could get a couscous saladat any deli, in any grocery
store in most of America.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
And it would probably taste the same.
Probably, I mean the spicesmaybe change.
I was gonna say, like thespices probably put it almost
the same.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
They have like a little bit of olives in.
It'll have some like whateverflavors, I don't know.
I feel like they're, they'revery uh.
I feel like like there was athing like maybe, oh wait, am I
thinking of quinoa?
Uh-oh, I think I might havethis whole thing talking about
quinoa.
Now I'm confused Now.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
I don't know the difference.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Wait, I think.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
I'm thinking of quinoa.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Oh no Well, which is healthier quinoa or couscous?
Speaker 2 (02:38):
I don't know, because now I'm confused about them.
Oh, quinoa is like planty ones.
Yeah, quinoa has completeproteins.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
So therefore it's healthier, more healthy than
couscous.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Both quinoa and couscous are both fun to see the
AI overview tells me they'reboth versatile grains or
grain-like substances which iskind of a funny thing to say.
Couscous is a processed grainproduct, typically made from
semolina, while quinoa is a seed, technically, and often
prepared and consumed like agrain.
(03:14):
Oh yeah, couscous is the onethat's more like pasta, so I
don't think I eat it very muchanymore.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Fair enough.
What about?
When was couscous invented?
Speaker 2 (03:26):
invented.
I'm kidding, how about is it?
It's kind of like amediterranean thing, right?
So I would think that couscoushas been around for a long time,
but I don't know.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
It says its existence would be unlikely if it was
earlier than 6,000 BC.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Its existence would be unlikely if it was earlier
than yes, because it's.
So if we went back in time, to6,001 BC, its existence would be
unlikely in that time frame?
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Yes, that would be unlikely, because it's made from
ground wheat.
Like you were just saying, it'sprocessed.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
So we have the processing ability.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
It says it got to the Middle East because Christians
kicked out Muslims and Jews fromSpain, and so they brought the
couscous to the Middle East.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Okay, I know.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
That is interesting.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
It was no interesting , I'm just thinking about that
I'm like wouldn't, we like thetime frames and different things
of that Totally.
What do you think couscous isbest paired with Wine?
Speaker 2 (04:39):
No couscous.
I think couscous would be goodwith like white meats.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
I think that maybe says something about what you
would like to pair it with Cause.
This says it pairs well withalmost everything.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
I mean, that's sort of a like you know, that's one
of those questions there's likewhat does it pair best with?
Oh, trick everything.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
All of the above.
Yes, you are correct.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
I mean, I think couscous has a better, like a
slightly better flavor thanquinoa though this wasn't
couscous versus quinoa day, butnow it is since.
I got confused.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Fair enough, fair enough.
How do you think you wouldcelebrate Couscous Day?
Speaker 2 (05:27):
I might have some actual couscous, since I haven't
had any for quite a long time.
I know that I have made it inthe past, but maybe I'll.
What are you going to do tocelebrate National Couscous Day?
Speaker 1 (05:42):
I'm enjoying saying couscous, as we mentioned before
, so I might just go aroundsaying it, but the suggested
activities are similar to yourcelebration.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
You could eat couscous, that seems kind of
obvious you could go to arestaurant and eat couscous.
Also obvious.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Or you could try a new recipe with couscous and
then eat it.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
I think that's pretty much you know, but there's not
much else you could do withcouscous other than eat it.
I mean, I don't even think itwould be good for like pasta.
Necklaces or art, like othersemolina products might be
couscous Not just yeah, allright, well it.
Art like other simulitaproducts might be couscous not
just yeah, all right.
Well, it's national couscousday.
We're gonna say say it at leasttwo more times, so please go
(06:27):
and enjoy, okay.
So I'm really excited thatwe're here today with Rafael Del
(06:47):
Castillo.
Yeah, he's our new boss's boss,joel.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Oh, I actually knew that I acted surprised, but I
knew that that was the case.
Oh, that's good Because if youwere surprised, I'd be worried.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
So Raphael is the incoming executive director for
CPM and we welcome you to thepodcast today, Raphael.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Yeah, welcome.
Thank you, misty.
Thank you Joel.
I guess I'm the boss of allbosses, I suppose.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Oh, I like that.
The boss of all bosses.
Boss squared Well, at least itmight be more of a bosses.
So I'm sure people other thanknowing you're the boss of all
bosses people might wonder whois this Raphael person?
Yeah, so we thought we'd startwith you.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
Just tell us a little bit about yourself and how you
got to here.
Yeah, yeah, I love thatquestion, so I could start from
the very beginning.
You know a small boy comingfrom Cuba to the United States.
I'm going to fast forward justa little bit and talk about my
CPM journey, when it startedwith me as a teacher.
So who am I.
I am originally, if you will, amath teacher math and science
(07:53):
for many years, about 20 years,before I started my leadership
journey that led me to thisposition as the executive
director, and CPM bothtransformed my classroom and my
practice in teaching mathematics, but it also put me on a road
to leadership.
So I have CPM to thank foropening my eyes, as a classroom
(08:15):
teacher, to what is possiblewhen you extend yourself, you
know, to leading a department,leading a school, leading a
nonprofit.
But you know, I very often kindof revert back to that teacher
mode.
I think, when you are in therole of listening to the people
around you, whether they're inkindergarten or full-grown
(08:36):
adults and sometimes it's hardto tell which is which, whether
they're in kindergarten orfull-grown adults, and sometimes
it's hard to tell which iswhich that if you listen to
folks and you approachleadership as teaching, you know
teaching and listening to learnand to understand, instead of
necessarily listening toformulate a response.
So that's just one gem that Itook from the classroom to my
(08:58):
leadership Right now.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Where did that journey start?
Oh gosh, geographical spot.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Well, we had my spouse and I moved from Miami to
Seattle, which my mom alwayssaid is as far as you can go
geographically from Miamiwithout you know, staying in the
continental United States.
So it was a big move, yeah,along many parameters, and it
was my introduction to middleschool.
So I had always taught math andscience in the high school, you
(09:26):
know, and I fancied myself apretty good teacher.
I think kids would say I wasokay.
But I feel like I got so muchbetter.
I almost want to go back andsay sorry I wish I'd known then.
But I think I was pretty decent.
And then I moved into middleschool because we arrived here
in January and so I really waslooking to start a position
(09:47):
mid-year which I'd never donebefore and I landed at Villa
Academy here in Seattle K-8school, fabulous school, fun
kids and I was charged withteaching the eighth graders
algebra and all the things I hadaccumulated you know, tips,
tricks, strategies in the highschool just did not work.
(10:09):
In middle school.
They were completelyunimpressed with my resume.
In fact they really needed adifferent kind of engagement and
I realized almost immediatelythat this had to be different
and I went out looking for adifferent curricular approach
and I ran across CPM at an NCTMconference, the National
(10:32):
Conference for Teachers ofMathematics, and I couldn't
close my eyes and remember ChrisMichaels was there at that
booth and we started aconversation and, long story
short, I ended up bringing thatto the classroom with, I think,
great success, particularly forthe students.
I ended up being a teacherleader, ultimately Washington
State regional coordinator, anda few years down the road of my
(10:56):
leadership journey I did serveon the board for a bit.
So coming to CPM in this rolefeels very much like coming home
.
It's very much like a fullcircle moment Nice.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Nice.
So I love how you connectedyour move to leadership with
really the changes you saw inyour classroom.
I'm wondering if you can, youknow, elaborate on that a little
bit around how you see maybeyour leadership style coming in
as executive director to youknow, to that those changes and
(11:27):
kind of CPM philosophies.
Right, how do those meshtogether?
Speaker 3 (11:30):
That's a really good question.
That's intriguing.
So I have very much adopted theserpent leadership model.
It's a gentleman namedGreenleaf put it together quite
some time ago and it's thisnotion that leadership is about
developing the best in the folksaround you, right, and it's
reciprocal in developing thebest in you.
(11:51):
So the servant leader reallylooks to maximize human talent
by coaching again, listening tolearn, not always listening to
respond or necessarily evendirect.
So that servant leadership model, I have to believe was
influenced by my CPM experience,because when you deploy a CPM
(12:15):
pedagogy into the classroom, youreally share your power as a
teacher, right.
You are no longer the source ofknowledge and information,
there are multiple sources andall of a sudden you see what's
possible by putting leadershipat each table right and
exploring the different wayskids can lead the group and add
value to the group.
(12:36):
So certainly that framework iswhat I took into leadership and
whether you're talking about youknow a group, five groups of
four, or you know sevendepartments, I think that a
similar approach can be takenand I took it.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
And I think it worked .
Speaker 3 (12:52):
I think it worked because I remember once upon a
time a direct report sort ofcharacterized my leadership as
as you don't leave anyone behind, and I really I took that to
heart and I really remember thatbecause that is my intention.
It doesn't mean, you know, youhave rose-colored classes all
the time and you have aPollyanna approach, but you
really do bring the whole groupforward and try as best you can
(13:15):
to develop all those people.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
You had mentioned that you worked with other
nonprofits and led othernonprofits.
Was that outside of education?
And then I'm curious did theCPM help translate you in those
fields too?
Speaker 3 (13:31):
Yeah, I would say.
I mean they were definitelyeducation adjacent.
So the two nonprofits I ledwere Rainier Scholars, which is
a college access organizationhere in Seattle modeled after
Prep for Prep in New York.
It's this notion of bringingfamilies of color, kids of color
, you know, to and throughcollege with a very
comprehensive program.
So definitely adjacent.
(13:52):
And I also had the wonderfulopportunity to be the interim
executive director of the KidsDiscovery Museum here on
Bainbridge Isle where we live.
It's a museum for little ones,magical.
If you're ever on the islandyou got to visit, whether you're
a kid or not.
To be honest, tell them I sentyou and I would say that because
(14:12):
they were education adjacent.
It was pretty easy, you know, tosee that.
But I will home in ongovernance.
You know the board structurethat is present in all across.
You know schools, nonprofits,to realize that the CPM way, if
(14:37):
you will, is something to belooked at.
I'm not saying that theydirectly took it from CPM the
way I did, but boards arerecognizing that there's a bunch
of smart people around the room, around the table, and we're
not always maximizing theirtalents right.
Sometimes it's like you're in aboardroom and anybody who's
been in a boardroom knows, it'soften a very directional flow of
information and all of a sudden, all these really talented,
(14:59):
smart people who you'verecruited to your board are
generally silent and they'rereceiving information and
occasionally asking a question,and there is a real move toward
a concept called generativeboards where you take advantage
of the people in that room, youfind other ways to inform and,
yeah, sometimes it means workingin groups and some boardrooms.
(15:23):
Today you'd walk in and you'dsay, well, just like a CPM
classroom, that's cool.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
It's really interesting.
As you're talking about that, Iwas just having this connection
for myself around around,there's so much that is
happening in our world around.
I'm gonna like use some reallyglobal term, you know, like
general terms here around, likea western model of sort of top
down you know who's in chargeand what's happening and then a
(15:49):
more collaborative someone, say,a more indigenous model of
equals at a table and things.
And I, just as you were talkingabout that, I was really
hearing that that connection aswell happening, hopefully, you
know, in CPM and continuing inCPM and in the rest of the world
and what you're describing.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
And even the even ourrectangular approach to board
meetings right versus a circleright.
Just experimenting with adifferent configuration in
boardrooms or departmentmeetings or organizational
meetings.
Reframing the environment canoften just reframe the
(16:29):
conversation.
Again, very CPM Like what arewe about?
We're about reframing andreconstructing the classroom and
, uh, the relationship of thestudent with the teacher and
with each other.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
So cool and and I want to shift from that a little
bit because I I love whatyou're talking about with the
like sort of like shared mathauthority we're trying to create
in our classrooms right, andthat same idea of like,
according to some, like sharedleadership, right, or shared
direction and decision-making,however that might look in a
company and in the classroom youhave the teacher who's holding
(17:05):
the vision, who's holding thedirection, who knows where we're
trying to go or where they wantto try to go, and so how do you
like, how do you talk aboutthat parallel?
A little bit now, for youAbsolutely yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
No, I mean, I'll start with my role as a teacher
and how it transformed.
It wasn't just about futureleadership, it was in the moment
, my expanded capacity to dothat direction, finding like to
provide that compass.
Suddenly, I wasn't stuck in aplace of conveying information,
(17:38):
but I could walk around, do alot of that, listening to learn
right, and then make strategicmoves for the classroom, for the
students, both as a whole group, individuals at different
tables.
So that is really you've nailedit.
This is the heart of servantleadership, which is that you
need to find a way to distributethat authority, power,
(18:00):
responsibility, accountability,they all come together so that
then you have that time, youknow, to look beyond the horizon
, to look around the mirrors,and you're not doing it alone,
but you are, as the leader,right, as the compass, charged
with that, and often you knowour plates get really full and
we start getting super busy andyou want to make sure there's
(18:21):
someone and some folks who arelooking around corners and
looking ahead.
So, yeah, spot on.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Yeah, for me, the parallel with that in the
classroom was when I stoppedgrading everyone's homework,
stopped looking at every singleproblem all my kids had ever
done and giving it a score, Likeyou guys are going to do this
now.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Yeah, look how much more time I have and that has
that has huge, that there's adirect connection there to goal
setting evaluation and you, youknow success plans for for folks
, right?
so, instead of grading everypaper, you know, starting with a
set of uh, self-generated goalsthat tie to some organizational
(19:06):
goals.
I found that to be reallypowerful and and the same way,
we in the classroom discoveredthat sometimes kids are harder
on themselves and theirteammates than we predict.
Individuals, when empoweredwith goal setting and with a
success plan, are often holdingthemselves to a very, very high
bar.
(19:26):
Know and leadership partner andit's like, okay, it's us, us
against the goals, kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
Instead of instead of this you know this
unfortunately fraughtsupervisory structure that we
have, particularly in thewestern part of of our globe, uh
, that is often not veryproductive interesting yeah I'm
wondering about, because youhave this past history of CPM
and now it's been continuous,maybe or whatever, but what back
(19:59):
then stands out to you as stillbeing the same, or what from
back then to now feels different, just as a?
Speaker 3 (20:08):
coming in and out no-transcript, started teaching
(21:04):
CPM way, right.
It was seen as extraordinarybecause it was right.
I would argue and this is agood thing that pedagogy,
schools of education, all of thework toward preparing teachers,
has become more CPM, like Right, like we are less extraordinary
now because teachers are doingthings like what we've been
(21:26):
discussing Right Groups, youknow, different strategies
toward assessment and so on, andso I think that's both timeless
, like we are still anextraordinary approach, but less
extraordinary relative to therest of the world.
So what's the next leap for us?
And then, you know, it would bekind of blind to not point out
(21:48):
that the advances of technologyare now like spiking.
I mean, I was at that sameschool, bill Academy, I was part
of one of the first one-to-onelaptop programs.
And I'll never forget, becausethe laptops, of course, were
pretty clunky, but the device toconnect was about the size of a
brick.
I kid you, not that you wouldattach to the laptop and then,
(22:11):
because it was ahundred-year-old school, not
that you would attach to thelaptop, and then, because it was
a hundred year old school, thecords to connect the laptop ran
up into the ceiling.
So I want you to just hold thatimage in your mind, that
dystopian image of the clunkycomputers, the brick and wires
extending up to the ceiling.
(22:33):
And I say that because at thetime we were like we are on the
cutting edge and look where weare now, and I think you, it is
both exciting and it is also ourjob as as as educators to to
curate that, to curate thattechnology in classrooms that we
believe should be studentcentered.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Absolutely so.
When we were chatting beforethis, we talked about how the
headline could be, you know,seamless transition, laughing
about how that would not be thebest headline.
You know, nothing happened.
It's not news, and so we'vetalked a little bit, I feel like
how you see yourself movinginto this position, how it fits
(23:15):
for you, etc.
You also mentioned that youfeel a sense, or maybe there is
a sense of some urgency and Iwonder if you could speak to
that a little bit as we movetoward the end here.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, seamless transition
headline, not so much, but thereis a sense of urgency, and it's
not just for us, this isn'tjust CPM that needs to, you know
, pick up its pace.
Education is being transformedin a pretty significant way.
Ascd and ISTE, these are twoorganizations, one curriculum
development organization and theother ed tech organization, and
(23:57):
I think here's a headline foryou.
These two organizations gotmarried essentially and they are
moving forward together intheir conferencing, in their
membership, all of the above.
So that to me really issomething to pay attention to.
The curriculum developmentfolks have acknowledged in a big
(24:18):
way that we must developcurriculum with ed tech in mind,
with technology in mind.
And on the flip side, ed tech,you know, and I'm making a very
broad statement here but ed techrecognizes that if they are
putting tools into the hands ofteachers, they need to be
informed by good curricularchoices and good curricular
(24:41):
frameworks.
Right, so that is a worthyheadline and that presents the
urgency for an organization likeCPM.
So CPM has always beeninnovative, creative in its
solutions and, as I said earlier, we are less extraordinary.
A lot of folks are bringingcreativity and really
interesting solutions into thatcombo curricular development, ed
(25:03):
tech world, interestingsolutions into that combo
curricular development, ed techworld but we do have those
timeless elements, right.
We are really good atunderstanding how students learn
mathematics.
We have structures thattranscend curricular frameworks
and transcend tech solutions.
So we're still a key player inthis conversation, but it's
going to move really quickly.
We're still a key player inthis conversation, but it's
going to move really quickly.
(25:24):
Another thing that struck me atthe conference were these two
amazing fourth graders who wereon Zoom presenting to about 100
teachers Wow, and a couple ofthings.
They were completely nonplussed, right.
So they've been using thistechnology in a pretty seamless
and invisible way, like youcould tell that they were there
(25:47):
to show the teachers all thecool stuff they can do with this
tool.
They were not there tohighlight the tool itself, and
it was so evident and sointeresting to watch that, and I
think that's where we're at towatch that, and I think that's
where we're at.
We're going to be catching uphence the sense of urgency with
(26:07):
the students who are going touse these tools.
They're already using thesetools and it's our
responsibility to help guide andcurate this thing.
I don't know if you rememberthe term digital natives.
For a while, it was like allthe younger generations were
digital natives, and while itwas like all the younger
generations were digital natives.
And we old folk like me, youknow, were digital immigrants,
(26:31):
and I then encountered adifferent framework in that
these young people are digitalnaives.
Just because they're facilewith the technology itself does
not mean they understand all therepercussions of using it.
You know questions of privacy,questions of like what's, what's
what?
You know, what are the otherfactors that come into play so
(26:54):
we can't default our curationand our engagement with students
and techno.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
I can see that being part of CPM too, with our
collaboration, with our how howto help people understand how to
communicate, cause, like yousaid, we are, uh, who are here
now of a generation where wekind of had to learn.
We, we learned skills andstrategies to communicate with
each other in a different way.
(27:22):
Now we have technology thatstudents are engaged in and
understand, but they need tolearn how to learn, not the
rules, but the way to interactwith each other that are
appropriate, and so we have toget knowledgeable about that
Well and rapidly.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
The intergenerational flow of knowledge now happens
like in a decade, versus onceupon a time, maybe a century,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Well, that's about all we have time for today, I
think, and we have reallyenjoyed talking with you, rafael
, and we are planning to talkwith you again on some frequency
.
We'll have some moreconversaciones con Rafael later
on, so thanks for being with us.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
You know where to find me.
We do, we usually find youpretty easily.
A pleasure.
Thank you for having meAbsolutely.
Thank you you're probably notgoing to be able to use it, but
(28:35):
it's okay well, who cares?
Speaker 2 (28:37):
okay?
Speaker 1 (28:37):
so here's your on the spot the question do you have a
favorite math joke that you'dlike to share?
Speaker 3 (28:43):
I do, I do.
It's a very corny groany joke.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
So it's.
What does a mermaid wear?
I don't know, what does amermaid?
Speaker 2 (29:04):
wear, I don't know, algebra, algebra.
So that is all we have time foron this episode of the More
Math for More People podcast.
If you are interested inconnecting with us on social
media, find our links in thepodcast description, and the
music for the podcast wascreated by Julius H and can be
found on pixabaycom.
(29:24):
So thank you very much, julius.
Join us in two weeks for thenext episode of More Math for
More People.
What day will that be, joel?
Speaker 1 (29:34):
It'll be August 26th, national Toilet Paper Day.
I personally appreciate toiletpaper every day, but I can put
myself in a mindset where I'mthinking of what if I didn't
have toilet paper, and thatmakes me appreciate it that much
more.
So we'll talk about why wecelebrate National Toilet Paper
(29:54):
Day, the history behind ToiletPaper Day, and we can all
appreciate having toilet paper.
So looking forward to havingyou join us on August 26th.
We'll see you then, thank you.
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