September 11, 2025 • 50 mins
Ashlie’s love story with her husband JR began in the most unexpected way—on a dating website while he was incarcerated. Their journey together has been filled with highs and lows: from a beautiful romance and the profound care JR showed for Ashlie’s dying father, to the heartbreak of JR’s reoffense just as they were rebuilding their life.
In this episode, Ashlie opens up about what it means to love someone who has spent much of their life in and out of the system, the power of compassion and second chances, and how support, resources, and love can shape people into their best selves.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
People with a rough past generally don't feel like they
deserve good things, and when things get good and comfortable,
they have a hard time believing that they.
Deserve that. Welcome to more than an inmate's
girlfriend. I'm your host Jay, and we are on
episode 2 of the second season. I know I say this a lot, but
(00:25):
this one is one that we recordeda very long time ago, this
episode, and it's always been close to my heart and I've been
counting down the days until I could release this and there's a
few reasons why. The first one really has to do
with the fact that it's very common.
And what I mean by very common is this episode is based around
(00:46):
reoffenders. So men and women that have gone
through the system multiple times have committed crimes and
done time and then been releasedand then either, you know,
messed up their parole or committed a separate crime after
parole. And it would be naive to say
that it doesn't happen often. But what I love about this
episode is the person that we are interviewing and how she is
(01:11):
able to communicate to us that might not understand why someone
keeps reoffending. She has a very beautiful way of
showing the world that the person that she loves might have
been incarcerated multiple times, but he is so much more
than that. And there are reasons and the
(01:35):
fact that someone can be given certain things in life and then
you throw in resources and you throw in love and you show this
person that they are deserving of more and they are capable of
more. And then you get to see a
transformation. I don't think there's a better
couple that could help us understand reoffending more than
(01:55):
this couple. Before we get into it, I have
been sharing a little bit more openly on TikTok what's been
going on in my life or where I've been at or how I've been
feeling about all this. For those of you that haven't
listened to previous episodes, I'm currently suspended
indefinitely from contacting my husband and blocked on all forms
of communication and it's weighed very heavily on me.
(02:19):
It's very, very difficult to process and I've been having a
really hard time and I've decided that I really need to
stop what I'm doing and stop feeling sorry for myself and not
let it affect my life the way ithas drastically the last almost
a year. So I'm working on that.
And part of that is being more authentic to who I am.
(02:41):
And part of that means sharing my truth and sharing my husband
and speaking about him. So that has included being on
TikTok more and talking a littlebit more and opening the
conversation a little bit more. So I'm very new to it.
Forgive me. Social media has never been
something that I've been very fond of.
But with that, I think AJ and I,we were talking about maybe
(03:05):
going on lives. We were thinking maybe like
every Wednesday evening going onTikTok Live to discuss the
episode that we released the week before.
And it would be really cool if the person that was being
interviewed would come on eventually or even be in the
comments to answer any questionsthat people might have.
So that's kind of our idea rightnow.
I don't know what you guys thinkabout it.
I'm not a huge fan of TikTok Live.
(03:27):
I still have to do the 30 minutes alone thing that I don't
want to do. But anyways, off topic.
So yeah, I think we're going to be doing that.
So keep your eye out, keep your ears out, keep watching because
I think we will be doing that and I think that would be
really, really cool. Other than that, please like the
show, follow the show. I know it's such a small
gesture, but just you guys clicking that follow button
(03:50):
really helps us. And you can support us by just
simply liking and following the show.
You can follow us on Instagram at Podcast under Score Prison GF
or on TikTok at More than an Inmates GF.
And yeah, with that, let's get into reoffenders.
(04:13):
Welcome, Ashley. Hi.
Thank you so much for joining ustoday.
Thank you for having me. Yeah, I can't wait to talk about
your relationship. Do you want to tell me how you
guys met? Start from the beginning.
So we first met in about it was 2016, he was in fire camp and I
actually met him on a dating site.
(04:36):
He told me right away that he was in prison.
He did. Yes, he did, pretty much right
away. He told me he didn't want to
keep any secrets. He wanted to be honest.
So. I respected that.
I feel like I've had my fair share dating app experiences.
I don't know what I would do if I matched with someone and then
they said like, by the way, I'm incarcerated.
(04:58):
Like I don't know. I feel like that's so way out
and not a thing. I know I never, never expected
it. I thought I was just talking to
a local guy. You know, yeah.
And then did you have any hesitation or you're just like,
OK, I'm OK with that? I was a little hesitant.
I was just kind of, I guess intrigued by it because I just
(05:22):
wasn't expecting it. So I was intrigued and we just
kind of clicked. Cool.
What was it about him that was different?
I mean, he was in prison, that was different and he was just
easier to talk to. And because he couldn't have any
physical contact with me, there was no expectation to be
(05:45):
physical right away, which a lotof guys on dating sites, they're
just trying to hook up. And did he share with you when
he was getting out? Did you have to wait a long time
before he was due to come out? No, he was due to come out in
about I think it was about 6 months, but then he got caught
(06:06):
with that phone that we met on the dating.
Flight snap. And then he got I think like 60
days added or something like that.
So it ended up being about 8 months before he got out.
And Kate, you don't have to answer this, but I'm so curious
(06:28):
because my husband had a phone and it was before he even knew
me. So was he Facetiming you from
inside? We Facetimed everywhere, like on
fires, like actual legit fires. Like I got to see the flame
retardant being dropped from airplanes and stuff like that.
It was really cool. Oh my gosh, what a cool
(06:49):
experience. I mean, we're not supposed to
have phones, but yeah, super cool, yeah.
He would send me really cool pictures of really pretty
graveyards that were like overgrown in the forest and cute
little critters that you would find scary little tarantulas
that he would pick up. It was just really a unique
(07:11):
experience, I guess. Yeah, because you would have had
contact with him all the time, which is way different than most
people who met while incarcerated, you know?
Right. And like this was 10 years ago
now almost. I mean, it was pretty relaxed.
I guess fire camps still are pretty relaxed, but I would say
the fire camps are a little moreon top of those things like cell
(07:34):
phones and stuff like that. They've gotten better over the
years. They have gotten better, yeah.
Unfortunately, did you get to meet him while he was
incarcerated or was the first time you met him once he was
free? I did go meet him at Mount
Bullion and then after he got introuble for that cell phone,
they sent him to Mara Monte. So I went to two different camps
(07:56):
and it was a nice experience. It was really woodsy.
It was in the middle of the forest basically, and it didn't
feel like a prison at all. It wasn't intimidating.
There was no razor wire or anything like that, so it was
very relaxed and we could just hang out and finally get to know
(08:16):
each other in person. Was it as you expected?
Because you've been talking, you've been Facetiming, and then
you see him in person. Yes.
He was no different in person than he was over the phone or on
FaceTime or anything like that. He was just very honest and we
just clicked and it kind of feltlike I had known him my whole
(08:39):
life. And then he gets out.
You knew his charges before, correct?
Correct. Yeah.
So did you have any concerns that he might reoffend?
I really wasn't sure at first, but I did know he was honest.
So I did know that he said he wanted to come home, he wanted
(08:59):
to work, he wanted to have a family.
I did believe him there. I didn't know if he would like
relapse or reoffend. It was just kind of up in the
air. Did you guys talk about it other
than him saying that he wasn't planning to?
Was there like steps or any kindof boundaries or anything that
you had discussed to try and mitigate that risk?
(09:23):
I don't know, not really. Like when he first came out, he
stayed clean. He had been clean in prison all
that time, so I trusted him to stay clean, you know what I
mean? And the drug and alcohol abuse
is the only thing that ever really led him astray.
But when he was home and focusedon family and work and stuff
(09:47):
like that, he did really well. Wow, that's so nice.
So I've had experience with significant others that have
struggled with substance abuse and and it can be really
challenging to stay sober. And I imagine coming out of
being incarcerated back to the free world, there's so many
opportunities, although there isin prison too.
(10:09):
I really commend him for being able to stay clean throughout.
Coming home, yeah. And again, work and family
really kept him focused on not using anything so.
How long was he locked up for, by the way?
He was in there for I think around six years and his
(10:29):
sentence was 11 years. And at the time he was like, I
didn't even fight it. I didn't even care.
I didn't have very much hope or anything to go home to, so I
really just didn't care. Wow, so sad.
So he just let them sentence them to that and he didn't put
up much of a fight and he said that he didn't even really bad
(10:51):
an eyelash when they said 11 years.
Was that his first time? No.
So he's been in a few times. He had some stuff when he was a
juvenile. I think his first time in prison
was when he was 19. And then I think there might
have been a time between that first strike and him being 19.
(11:12):
I think he served some time in there, too.
So there was a lot of like in and out in his adults, even his
teen years. Which is so common the rate of
recidivism is insane. Especially when they get them as
juveniles, it's a really viciouscycle.
(11:32):
For sure. What would you say was the most
challenging thing when he came home for you guys?
I would say just trying to get comfortable in being in a
healthy, normal family setting. He had a pretty rough ass and
people with a rough past generally don't feel like they
(11:53):
deserve good things. And when things get good and
comfortable, they have a hard time believing that they deserve
that. So sometimes they self sabotage
by doing things like relapsing if they were maybe an alcoholic
or use drugs. So yeah, I think that was
something that he had to work on.
(12:13):
Him and I together had to work on our communication and
learning to deal with our past traumas, which spread up things
like trust issues, abandonment issues.
So yeah. Yeah, I think it's just so
common what you're saying about self sabotaging.
Even I can relate to that. It's something that is very much
(12:34):
attached to abandonment issues. And I think he was really
blessed to come into your world where you have strong family
connections, right? How did your family deal with
you bringing home someone who was previously incarcerated and
also didn't have a history of having that loving family?
So at first my parents weren't too sure about it.
(12:55):
He was actually in a treatment program, which is just like a
post release kind of program. And he didn't like it there
because people were using drugs around him and he really wanted
to stay focused. He wanted to go get a job right
away. He wanted to do something with
himself and not sit in a treatment center where people
(13:15):
are just using drugs. So he finally ended up moving in
with us and immediately he got to work.
We, he started working on getting his license, which he's
never had before. He never got to get his license
because he had a DY when he was a teenager.
And I think that was one of his very first like real run
(13:37):
insurance with the law. So that was kind of pricey and
he had to take a bunch of classes, but we got that.
And then he started working for a tree company that was actually
run by somebody that he was in fire camp with.
So yeah, the guy got out of FireCamp and he started his own tree
(13:58):
service with the skills that he learned at fire Camp.
Wow. And so he went to work for him
and he was with him for, like, Idon't know, maybe 5 or 6 years,
yeah. So he essentially did everything
that he said he would do. He followed through on that.
So your parents being maybe skeptical at the beginning, did
that help them accept him? Yes, definitely.
(14:20):
And he really put in a lot of work to prove himself.
My parents couldn't even depend on my own brothers to help them
with things. My dad when he came home was
about I think 74 and my mom was like 69, I believe.
So my dad could no longer do things like get on the roof to
(14:41):
do the air conditioner in the summertime.
He couldn't weed eat all of our property because we have a
pretty big piece of property. So he took on all those duties
for my dad. Oh my gosh.
He just really stepped up for mydad and really proved himself
there. Then my mom, she's very
(15:02):
sympathetic and they get along so well.
Sometimes I think she likes him better than me.
They're just so alike in personality.
They like the same foods, they like the same TV shows, they
love cribbage. They just sit along so well.
(15:24):
He really just fit into your family so well.
Yes for sure. My mom calls him her son and
don't you dare call him her son-in-law.
Like that is her son. That's her baby.
That is so sweet. He's never had that mother like
figure in his life so she made ahuge impact on him.
(15:47):
It really sounds like it, like I'm thinking of someone who
didn't have the best family lifegrowing up and then to be into
this whole loving family that just absorbs you and gives you
that opportunity and the abilityto bond in that way.
It must have been really nice for.
Him, right? Yeah, it definitely has been.
It's definitely softened him up and helped him just kind of undo
(16:11):
all that. Like being institutionalized.
Yeah, being institutionalized isjust so hard.
It's just a hard state of mind to get out of.
But just having us has really helped him do that.
And how long do you think it took from him getting out to
being at that comfort level and not being so institutionalized?
(16:32):
Was it a long journey to get there for him?
I would say, yeah, it was kind of a long journey.
It took time. I feel like even to this day, he
still works on just the symptomsof being institutionalized, you
know what I mean? But then him going back this
time, he was like, I can't go back.
He's like, it's just not me. Like, I don't even know how to
(16:54):
do that anymore. And I was like, yeah, babe, I
know you're too soft for prison.He's like, no, I am not.
And I was like, yes, you are. I said your wife tucked you in
with a blankie at night. You're soft.
But I feel like you just put on this old face, I guess, right?
Yeah. So that's one of the things of
(17:16):
growing up, how he did and the time he spent in prison.
He just had to just, I guess, reassimilate back into that and
he has a really easy time adapting to those things.
He's pretty adaptable. Yeah, and it's familiar for a
lot of people and. Yeah, it's definitely something
that he'll never forget. He doesn't want to be like that,
(17:40):
but he definitely knows how to get through.
Yeah. So.
When he was staying with you guys and integrating, I guess
for the first time into your family and everything was going
really good, you spoke earlier with me about your dad getting
sick and how supportive he was around that for you.
Do you want to just walk us through a little bit about what
(18:00):
happened and what he did to stepup for you and your family?
Yeah, so my dad had just had a cough for kind of a while, and
he finally went to the hospital to get it checked out after a
bunch of doctor's appointments and stuff.
And we thought that maybe he would be in there for about a
(18:21):
week. But as time went on, they kept
him in the bed for about 3-4 days, and that's when he kind of
started to lose just his overallmuscle tone and strength.
He's 81 at the time, so he just kind of started getting weaker.
He was already on dialysis and they had caught non alcoholic
(18:45):
liver cirrhosis extremely late. He was already in end stage by
the time they caught it. That was about two years ago and
I don't know how they never caught that.
I don't understand how in the blood work you don't catch that
somebody is in end stage liver failure.
(19:06):
So he's already had some things going against him and he was
just really weak from being in the hospital.
And so they sent him to one of those rehab places where they
get you walking again so that you would go home safely.
And he went to his dialysis after he got there.
And I can't remember, I think hemay be passed out or something
(19:28):
like that. And they had to rush him back
over to the hospital. So he continued to be bedridden
and not be able to rehabilitate and walk.
So it was just a lot of back andforth between going to the
hospital, going to the rehab, issues with dialysis, because
(19:49):
after so many years of doing dialysis, your body just can't
take it anymore. It's a pretty intense thing.
But in that whole time, Jr. was there with him 100% every single
day after work, on the weekends,any spare time.
My mom and I, we had things thatwe had to care for at the house.
I had the kids. So Jr. was pretty much the one.
(20:11):
To take care of all of that and stay with him because he hated
to be alone. He didn't like being in the
hospital. He didn't come out and say it
like, hey, I'm lonely. But we knew, and Jr. knew.
And so he was there every singleday to help him shave, clip his
(20:32):
nails. My dad had some loose teeth at
the time in the hospital and thedoctors couldn't really deal
with that because they couldn't give him the anesthesia because
of the dialysis to actually pullthe teeth and alleviate that
issue. So he had a really hard time
eating. So Junior was there every single
(20:54):
meal that he could be to make sure that he was eating
something. We would bring him like baby
food and stuff like that, and hewould help my dad eat and just
get something in his stomach. He would encourage him to drink
his protein shakes because that's really important for
people on dialysis. And he was just there every
single day, never missed a beat.Not even my own family could do
(21:18):
that for him. And then when it came time for
Hospice, which was a hard decision all on its own, my dad,
the whole time he was in the hospital, about two months, he
was begging to go home. We couldn't let him pass at the
hospital. So when it came time, we got a
(21:39):
bedroom ready, which Jr. helped us with.
We set up all the equipment whenthey transferred my dad from
hospital to the rehab center. The one time Jr. followed the
transport van so that my dad could see him out the window and
he followed him on his motorcycle so that he could see
(21:59):
that he wasn't going to leave his side.
It was really cute. He was just such a good son, you
know? So, yeah.
And then once we got him here, he helped us with all the
medicine and cleaning him up andmake sure that my dad was able
to pass with some dignity. So yeah, he took a really big
(22:23):
part in that whole situation. Devastating.
Devastating situation. Devastating.
For sure, and he was a huge emotional support for my mom.
As you're telling the story, andlike I told you before, this has
stuck with me since the first time I heard it because it takes
a special man to do that to someone they're not even related
(22:46):
to. And not only that, but it comes
to mind that your father passingthis man who you've chosen to
spend your life with has given your father that reassurance of
who he is. I don't think your father could
have asked for a better gift or security blanket knowing that
his daughter is going to be withthis type of man.
(23:07):
Oh my God, now that you put it that way, I never even really
fully grasped that. Yeah, like it's just not
something that you hear. I know, I know.
And you're so right. A father really wants to see
their daughter marry somebody that's going to take care of
them. Because I was a daddy's girl,
like 100% through and through. I was always by my dad's side,
(23:30):
hanging out with him in the junkyards and the auto shops while
he built his car. So I know it was important for
him to know that his daughter was going to be OK and his wife,
he needed to know that somebody was going to take care of his
wife too. Because my mom is so spoiled.
He took such good care of my mother.
(23:52):
I never realized it until after he passed.
And I was like, Oh my God, mom, Dad took such good care of you.
Like he did everything for you. Oh my.
Gosh, you know, so it must have been so hard for him while he
was passing to know that he was leaving more than anybody,
leaving his wife behind and alone.
(24:14):
But I'm sure it was reassuring for him to know that Jr. would
be there for my mom too. Yeah, yeah.
It's like he was able to pass knowing that his girls were
going to be taken care of because of the man that you
chose. That's so nice.
I know, right? What a beautiful way and just
even just taking care of this house.
(24:35):
I own the house that my mom and dad bought back in the 80s and
he knew that me and Jr. was going to take care of this house
and that his wife, the love of his life, gets to stay in this
house and we're going to keep her safe and comfortable here
too, just like he was. Yeah, so we're talking about him
(24:55):
and how he integrated into your family and all these beautiful
things that he did and what kindof wonderful human he is,
really. And then he reoffends.
What was that like? It was definitely hard.
We had had an argument and I basically kicked him out.
I told him I don't need you anymore, life would be better
without you. It was a nasty argument and I
(25:18):
kicked him out and he was gone for about two months.
He found a room to rent, but he had also started drinking again.
There was some outside influence, people that kept him
sidetracked and kept him from reaching back out.
And just saying, I just want to come home.
Just can I come home? Like, I'm not doing good out
(25:38):
here. I need to come home, you know?
And you know how much I love them.
I would have been like, yes, come home.
So you didn't talk to him for those two months?
No, not really. It was hard.
I was just trying to move on. I was trying to forget him and I
thought maybe this was it, maybewe're over.
And it was just strange to me that he also wasn't reaching
(26:02):
out. But I did know that there was
outside influences. Unfortunately, those people were
my own family. Yeah.
But he finally did reach out. We started talking, and one of
those nights, I think he was at his dad's and we were on the
phone and he was going to come back home.
(26:23):
He was ready to come back home. I told him not to drink tonight,
just go home. And I'm going to come to your
place. I'll see you soon.
And I had, I put the kids to bedand I called him and he didn't
answer. And I kept calling and he didn't
answer. And I started to get really
worried. He finally called me.
(26:43):
He said something had happened. So I went racing out of the
house. I really didn't know what to
expect. He was a little banged up and
under the influence and he couldn't even really explain or
remember what had happened, likea knot on his head, and it was
just like a really bad dream. It's definitely one part of our
(27:05):
past that I don't try to reflecton too much because it literally
felt like a nightmare. It was like after everything you
were going to come home and now you're not.
And did he tell you that night or he wasn't aware that he had
done something that wasn't legal?
He kind of started to piece things together over the next
(27:26):
few hours, him sobering up. He was pretty drunk at the time,
yeah. And then we kind of started to
piece things together. Oh my gosh, I can't imagine how
devastated you must have been. Yeah, it was definitely,
definitely something. And then there was the whole
arrest warrant, which was actually a rainy warrant, which
(27:47):
meant that they can go to anybody's house and bust down
the door if they have any reasonable suspicion that he
might be there. So he decided because he didn't
want the kids to see, he didn't want my mom to see.
He didn't want them traumatized.He didn't want them scared.
So we got him a lawyer really quick and then he went and
(28:09):
turned himself in. He went straight on down to the
jail and said here I am. That's like the most mature
thing you could do in the situation.
It was, yeah. And I think it also for the
judge, when she sat and read through all the litigations that
we had put together, I think that was another reason for her
(28:30):
making the decision that she did.
Did you carry any guilt around it?
I did. I did.
I felt like there was a lot of what if.
What if we hadn't had an argument?
What if I didn't kick him out? Maybe I shouldn't have been such
a hot head. There could have been some other
way that I went about it and he would still be here.
But anytime that I've brought itup and she gets on me about it,
(28:53):
he tells me I had absolutely nothing to do with it.
It's not my fault. I shouldn't feel guilty.
I shouldn't feel shame. It was his own actions and he
holds himself accountable 100% and tells me not to think that
way. Which is right.
I mean, he's so right. He, yeah, he made that decision
that night. He made a series of unfortunate
(29:15):
events, but they were all his. And he took ownership.
He took ownership of those decisions, which is part of
being a man and owning up to it.And it's nice that you were able
to have that conversation together about that.
And did that help you ease your?Yeah, yeah, definitely.
(29:36):
Yeah, He tells me, don't even think like that.
This has absolutely nothing to do with you.
This is not you. Just because we had had an
argument and you had made me leave that night, that has
nothing to do with my own decisions and my own actions,
right? And I think that's a honorable
way to deal with it. Absolutely it given the
(29:56):
situation And then was he in jail from then on or were you
able to get him out? He had a hefty price tag.
Oh, I'm sure those warrants don't come for nothing.
Yeah. So they wanted just a little bit
(30:17):
over a half, $1,000,000 for him.And yeah, and I didn't think
that I was going to be able to do it.
The main hang up was for a bail that big, they want about 5 to 6
cosigners. What?
Yes, yeah, I know. Not a lot of bail companies will
(30:38):
take that high of a risk withoutabout 5 to 6 people on the line
and a house for collateral. They want quite a bit, but I was
working with a bail company thatwe had used about three years
after he got out, the DA was trying to charge him with
(31:00):
something which they ended up dropping all charges because it
was just a bunch of nonsense. But we had worked with her
before and I had done a settlement with her where I just
paid her cash in full. And he never gave them any
problems or anything like that. He didn't try to run or anything
like that. And she trusted us and she
wanted to help us. So she actually went to bat for
(31:22):
us with her boss and she got herboss to agree to do it with no
houses, collateral, only three cosigners and about $35,000
cash. No big deal, No big deal as
you're telling me. I'm like, yeah, who?
(31:43):
If that were my situation, I don't think anybody would
cosign. I don't think I know one person
that would be like, yeah, all put up right, the risk of half a
billion dollars, no big deal at.First they just wanted $25,000,
but I couldn't get 5 cosigners, so she said for an extra 10
(32:04):
grand we'll let you do it with three cosigners.
Oh my. Money talk.
Yeah, money. Definitely talk.
So I pulled everything out of savings.
I pulled out a bunch of credit cards and I went down there and
I got him out and we put him on an ankle monitor for three years
(32:25):
as part of the bail term. The terms of the bail, he had to
be on an ankle monitor, which wehad to pay for every month.
So yeah, he was on that ankle monitor for three years.
He always did his check insurance and all that stuff.
So everything went well there. And as a matter of fact, the
lady that runs the GPS company wrote him a character reference.
(32:51):
Yeah, he was such a good customer that him a character
reference. That's awesome.
Precious, precious, the GPS ladyeven likes you.
Before we threw thousands of dollars at this lady over three
(33:11):
years, we were her best customerand we never gave them any
issues, you know what I mean? Like he always checked in.
So if you do the right thing, people usually tend to like you.
Yeah, especially in that industry, I think where there's
a lot of people that don't, it must be nice, like refreshing
for them to have someone so. Compliant I can't believe this
(33:33):
ankle monitor lady wrote you a character reference letter.
I. Love it.
What else did you guys do while you were waiting trial to try
and help him so that his sentence would be as minimal as
possible? So he stayed employed.
That was the number one thing. He kept a steady full time job,
(33:54):
which his boss wrote him a character reference to.
He did an outpatient rehab kind of program, which he got
certificates and stuff like that, but also his counselor
wrote him a separate character reference that was a little more
personal about him. He did just regular counseling,
(34:17):
like with a psychiatrist just tokind of like deal with his own
inner stuff. I just kept really close record
of all that kind of stuff. And then a ton of letters,
letters from one of his brothers, his sister, from me,
from my mom, from my dad. And then he wrote a very long
(34:39):
and well thought out, I guess, letter of remorse.
Is that what they're called? He wrote one and actually the
lawyer read through and he was like this remorse letter almost
brought me to tears. So it was very thoughtful and
very well written. Did anyone guide you on what you
(34:59):
should do in this time to help? Or was it just you guys kind of
like thinking up things on your own?
The lawyer told us yes, to obviously stay employed, do
volunteer work, character references, counseling, rehab,
just anything that we could think of.
(35:21):
So the lawyer wasn't very much help per SE, but what he did do
for us was he gave us a lot of time because he kept kicking the
court date just out and out and now until we were three years
into this case. So the best thing probably that
he could have done for us is what he did.
(35:42):
And he gave us three years for him to be out here and really
prove himself and show that he can be a productive member of
society because the DA was sitting up there calling him a
danger to society. And at the end of all of it,
with all the hard work that he put in, the judge straight up
(36:03):
told the District Attorney, I don't believe that he's a danger
to society. And she actually went against
probations recommendation and went against the DA's
recommendation and gave him lower term instead of upper
term. Amazing.
So rare. It all worked.
(36:25):
I know just putting in so much effort, it worked.
And through the whole thing, we didn't believe it.
We thought this was it. He was going to be gone for 14
years. He even signed the plea deal for
14 years. He signed his life away and we
were like, this is it. It's over.
The next decade of our life is gone together.
(36:47):
And it was just such a blessing.His lawyer and I, after the
sentencing, we sat outside of the courtroom on the bench and
for a few seconds we couldn't even say anything.
We were speechless, he said. In all my 30 years, I have
never, ever seen a judge make a decision like that in all my 30
(37:09):
years of practicing law. So it was definitely a blessing.
Yeah, for sure. You pretty much answered it, but
what do you think would have been different had he not had
that time to prove himself thosethree years?
It would be so different. At the very start, the District
Attorney was threatening him with I think like 24 years or
(37:31):
something like that. So if we wouldn't have fought
it, if I would have left him in jail, we would have never had a
chance. I don't think that people can
fight a case in a fairway from inside of jail.
The odds of so stacked against you, the outcome would have been
so much worse. So yeah, it was a huge risk
(37:53):
spending everything and maxing out those credit cards, but it
was so worth it. I would spend that money over
again. You know, you always hear
stories of money gets you out ofthings, right?
And sometimes you hear good stories about public defenders,
sometimes you hear really bad stories.
But it always all comes down to how much money you have gets you
the lighter sentences or gets you off.
(38:15):
And you don't even realize sometimes just how much of an
impact it would have. But I feel like your situation
highlights because how many people could put up that much
amount of money and have that many cosigners And right, it's
set up to fail. If you do not have the financial
means to be able to do that, you're essentially set up to
(38:35):
fail. I agree some people can't even
afford $1000 bail and it's just so stacked against people.
And honestly I didn't even have it all in cash.
It was credit cards. Luckily I have a huge credit
profile. I had fake money to spend.
It wasn't even actual money. It was a risk.
(38:58):
And the whole time he was out, he was like, I just need to stay
out and fight this case long enough to pay off these credit
cards so that I don't leave you in debt.
He was like, that is my worst fear that I won't be able to pay
off these credit cards before they take me back in, right.
So that was his number one concern because he didn't want
(39:19):
to leave me with a burden. Yeah.
Because I had taken this huge risk, even though he was like, I
don't think you should do this, this is stupid.
You know, if I had to come up with $35,000 to get my man out
for a couple years, I'd be there.
I have a large portfolio, too. I'm in.
(39:40):
You can have all my credit cards.
Yeah, and actually, to be honest, I called 2 of my credit
card companies to ask for a credit limit increase just to do
it. Yeah.
And luckily I've got really goodcredit.
So they were like, yeah, here, here's another $6000 here.
And yeah, Oh my God, I was just rambling to make it happen.
(40:04):
And by the grace of God, we madeit happen.
So throughout all this, did yourfamily's perception change?
Did their perspective on him change?
Did they think you were crazy tobe doing the things that you
were doing? Did they think that you should
leave him to? Be fair, my family already
thinks I'm crazy and they're probably not wrong.
(40:26):
But. In my family, for the most part
I don't really care for. I don't really talk to so it's
really hard to say what their opinion of me is.
I know they have a poor opinion of me until they want to borrow
money or they want me to sign ona car loan or something like
that. So honestly, I try not to care
(40:48):
what my family thinks. My mom, her opinion has not
changed. She loves Jr.
That is her son. He can do no wrong.
So cute. So yeah, it is pretty cute.
My littlest 1. He is 11 now, but when Jr. came
into our lives he was about two.So he doesn't remember a time
(41:13):
when Jr. wasn't in his life. And when he was old enough to
form opinions, he had asked me, does everybody have AJR?
Because he didn't know what a stepdad was yet.
He's too young to understand what a stepdad yet.
So he wanted to know if everybody had a Jr. because he
knows he has a dad, but then he's got a Jr.
(41:34):
Oh. My gosh, what a cute kid.
So, yeah. And so he just loves Jr.
He's taking him to go fishing for his first time, and he takes
him on adventures and rough and tumbles with him and does all
the boy stuff that moms don't generally do with boys.
(41:55):
I mean, I do boy stuff with him,too.
But like Jr. will get really down and dirty with the boy
stuff. And then also now your son will
have someone to teach him all the stuff that your dad had
taught Jr. like it's just passed.
Down Oh yeah, for sure. And J Rs dad taught him a lot of
stuff about cars and working on things here around the house and
(42:16):
stuff like that so his dad and my dad were very much alike very
hard workers, really knew how todo a lot of things and Jr. just
knows how to do everything. There's nothing really that he
can't do. He's fixed our septic tank,
which is just such a shitty job,no pun intended, but we just
(42:37):
were winging it and he fixed it.And it's so good to know that I
found somebody that can always provide for us and take care of
us and fix things around here. And I always tell him that he
looks so hot when he's working. So throughout this whole
process, did you ever question not staying?
(42:59):
No, it's never been a question. Yeah.
There's really nothing that'll make me love him less.
Yeah, it's a very unconditional kind of love through the hard
times. I can't imagine my life without
him. The types of adventures we have
and the things that we do, it's just very unique to us.
(43:21):
And incarceration is really nothing compared to the things
that we've already overcome together and the things that
we're going to overcome in the future, too.
We're going to come across otherhard things, and we're not going
to give up then either. My opinion of his character
hasn't changed one bit either. I know who he is.
(43:42):
I saw what he did for my dad. I saw what he did for his dad.
I see what he does for my children.
I love that because that's so true.
Yeah. And so that goes back to what
does my family think? What is my family's opinion?
Well, it doesn't really matter because I see who he is.
I've seen him do it. Do you worry he might reoffend
(44:04):
again next time he's out? No, no, I think this is
definitely it. He just so badly wants to come
home. The last time he was in prison
for the 11 years, he didn't really care about getting out
early. He didn't really care about time
off. This time around, he did a water
treatment operator program and got four months off.
(44:28):
Yeah, it's two different certificates.
And he was like, this is the first time I've ever done
credit. He was like, I never cared
before. He's like, I just so badly,
like, I'll take any course they want me to, just to be home
again. Yeah.
And I don't think that he'll relapse again.
(44:49):
I don't think that he'll take himself away from his family.
Yeah, you gave him something to live for.
Yeah, yeah. I think maybe 3-4 years ago we
probably took each other for granted.
We weren't very appreciative of each other.
And this time I think we both learned a lesson.
Yeah, we can't live without eachother.
(45:13):
I might have acted tough, like Icould live without him, but I
can't. We haven't really touched on
him, but he is fighting fires right now.
I guess it's not super active right now but he is on the team.
Yes, I think they're getting ready to make him first saw
soon. They are aware that he's been an
arborist for the past 10 years. So they're like, hey, we got a
(45:36):
job for you. Oh.
Nice. We heard you know how to run a
saw. Which would make sense.
Yeah. So, yeah, he was on the
Palisades fire, and then they moved over, I think, to like the
Hughes fire. He got to go to that Jelly Roll
concert for the first responders.
(45:56):
Yeah. And I got to see an actual video
of him there, and he was just sohappy and smiling.
I've never seen somebody so happy to be locked up.
You know it's Jelly Roll. I know.
And it was his first concert ever.
He was like, I cannot believe I'm going to my first concert
while I'm a prisoner. Wow.
(46:18):
He's never been to a concert. What a great concert to go to.
I would love to see him. I know he had a really good
time, like the very next day when he called me and told me
all about it, like that was all he could talk about.
I'm so glad that he got to have some kind of good experience
because those guys really do deserve it.
They work card and it boosts their spirits too.
(46:42):
Yeah, for sure. That sense of accomplishment,
that sense of giving back to your community.
A lot of people were just learning that we have
incarcerated firefighters, yeah.And so they got a lot of love.
Yeah, I think you've done such abeautiful job of telling us
about Junior and the impact thathe's had on your family and the
fact that even though he's reoffended a few times and
(47:05):
struggled through the prison system on multiple occasions,
that that doesn't define him andhe's so much more than that.
And I really appreciate you sharing all those things.
Is there anything else that you want people to understand about
your relationship or these typesof relationships in general?
I definitely feel like other people can have these same type
(47:26):
of experiences. It doesn't have to always be a
sad story. I think if somebody's focused
and they truly love each other, they can make it and kind of
defeat the odds together. There are blessings out there.
It's not completely hopeless. Yeah, but the lifestyle's not
for the weak, no. I think that's the trend of
prison wives. It ain't easy.
(47:48):
Yeah, it's worth it. Ain't easy.
Yeah. And not everybody can do this.
It takes a lot of love and a lotof dedication to do this and get
through this together. 100%, a lot of strength.
I find since obviously I've beenmeeting so many different people
from all over the country, and the general trending quality
(48:09):
that I found in the women that I've interviewed is strength.
There's a lot of independence and there's a lot of strength in
the women that are in these relationships and successfully
being in these relationships with men that are currently
incarcerated. We have to be.
I mean, we get judged a lot. There's a lot of stigma.
You have to be strong. You can't listen to that stuff.
(48:31):
Nobody knows your life better than you.
Nobody knows your partner betterthan you.
And we have a lot to take care of while our men are gone.
Yeah, I have a whole house with a mortgage and cars and kids and
a job, and we have to keep it all afloat while they're gone.
So it's a lot of hard work to maintain.
So you do have to be strong and you have to be independent and
(48:56):
you have to have a strong man that's willing to encourage you
to keep going. That's true.
Very interesting part actually. Is that encouragement?
Yeah, some, some men are not so encouraging and I think that's
where some people have a harder time maintaining these
relationships because it's a hard position for a man to be in
(49:18):
there and not providing for his family.
It's hard on their psyche. So it's so interesting too, that
you said that because it is something actually that I've
never really thought about because I find that my husband
is always continuously trying tofind different ways that he can
support me on different levels, like emotionally,
(49:38):
psychologically. And I never realized that until
you just said that like, oh, he does do these random things to
help me get through stuff because he can't be here
physically, you know? I know instead of beating me
down over things he tells me he's like, I am so proud of you.
Look at what you're doing. Like you fix the plumbing
(49:58):
yourself. You installed a new faucet
yourself. I'm so proud of you.
You are such a strong woman. You don't even need me anymore.
Well, thank you so much for coming on and thank you so much
for sharing your experiences. I really appreciate it.
And I just love your story and Ithink you're really blessed and
I wish you and him as a couple all the best.
(50:21):
He sounds like such a great human, and it sounds like you
both fit so well together that it's nice.
To hear. We really do.
And that's why I've never even considered giving up.
Yeah, for sure. All right.
Thank. You.
Yeah, take care.
People with a rough past generally don't feel like they
deserve good things, and when things get good and comfortable,
they have a hard time believing that they.
Deserve that. Welcome to more than an inmate's
girlfriend. I'm your host Jay, and we are on
episode 2 of the second season. I know I say this a lot, but
(00:25):
this one is one that we recordeda very long time ago, this
episode, and it's always been close to my heart and I've been
counting down the days until I could release this and there's a
few reasons why. The first one really has to do
with the fact that it's very common.
And what I mean by very common is this episode is based around
(00:46):
reoffenders. So men and women that have gone
through the system multiple times have committed crimes and
done time and then been releasedand then either, you know,
messed up their parole or committed a separate crime after
parole. And it would be naive to say
that it doesn't happen often. But what I love about this
episode is the person that we are interviewing and how she is
(01:11):
able to communicate to us that might not understand why someone
keeps reoffending. She has a very beautiful way of
showing the world that the person that she loves might have
been incarcerated multiple times, but he is so much more
than that. And there are reasons and the
(01:35):
fact that someone can be given certain things in life and then
you throw in resources and you throw in love and you show this
person that they are deserving of more and they are capable of
more. And then you get to see a
transformation. I don't think there's a better
couple that could help us understand reoffending more than
(01:55):
this couple. Before we get into it, I have
been sharing a little bit more openly on TikTok what's been
going on in my life or where I've been at or how I've been
feeling about all this. For those of you that haven't
listened to previous episodes, I'm currently suspended
indefinitely from contacting my husband and blocked on all forms
of communication and it's weighed very heavily on me.
(02:19):
It's very, very difficult to process and I've been having a
really hard time and I've decided that I really need to
stop what I'm doing and stop feeling sorry for myself and not
let it affect my life the way ithas drastically the last almost
a year. So I'm working on that.
And part of that is being more authentic to who I am.
(02:41):
And part of that means sharing my truth and sharing my husband
and speaking about him. So that has included being on
TikTok more and talking a littlebit more and opening the
conversation a little bit more. So I'm very new to it.
Forgive me. Social media has never been
something that I've been very fond of.
But with that, I think AJ and I,we were talking about maybe
(03:05):
going on lives. We were thinking maybe like
every Wednesday evening going onTikTok Live to discuss the
episode that we released the week before.
And it would be really cool if the person that was being
interviewed would come on eventually or even be in the
comments to answer any questionsthat people might have.
So that's kind of our idea rightnow.
I don't know what you guys thinkabout it.
I'm not a huge fan of TikTok Live.
(03:27):
I still have to do the 30 minutes alone thing that I don't
want to do. But anyways, off topic.
So yeah, I think we're going to be doing that.
So keep your eye out, keep your ears out, keep watching because
I think we will be doing that and I think that would be
really, really cool. Other than that, please like the
show, follow the show. I know it's such a small
gesture, but just you guys clicking that follow button
(03:50):
really helps us. And you can support us by just
simply liking and following the show.
You can follow us on Instagram at Podcast under Score Prison GF
or on TikTok at More than an Inmates GF.
And yeah, with that, let's get into reoffenders.
(04:13):
Welcome, Ashley. Hi.
Thank you so much for joining ustoday.
Thank you for having me. Yeah, I can't wait to talk about
your relationship. Do you want to tell me how you
guys met? Start from the beginning.
So we first met in about it was 2016, he was in fire camp and I
actually met him on a dating site.
(04:36):
He told me right away that he was in prison.
He did. Yes, he did, pretty much right
away. He told me he didn't want to
keep any secrets. He wanted to be honest.
So. I respected that.
I feel like I've had my fair share dating app experiences.
I don't know what I would do if I matched with someone and then
they said like, by the way, I'm incarcerated.
(04:58):
Like I don't know. I feel like that's so way out
and not a thing. I know I never, never expected
it. I thought I was just talking to
a local guy. You know, yeah.
And then did you have any hesitation or you're just like,
OK, I'm OK with that? I was a little hesitant.
I was just kind of, I guess intrigued by it because I just
(05:22):
wasn't expecting it. So I was intrigued and we just
kind of clicked. Cool.
What was it about him that was different?
I mean, he was in prison, that was different and he was just
easier to talk to. And because he couldn't have any
physical contact with me, there was no expectation to be
(05:45):
physical right away, which a lotof guys on dating sites, they're
just trying to hook up. And did he share with you when
he was getting out? Did you have to wait a long time
before he was due to come out? No, he was due to come out in
about I think it was about 6 months, but then he got caught
(06:06):
with that phone that we met on the dating.
Flight snap. And then he got I think like 60
days added or something like that.
So it ended up being about 8 months before he got out.
And Kate, you don't have to answer this, but I'm so curious
(06:28):
because my husband had a phone and it was before he even knew
me. So was he Facetiming you from
inside? We Facetimed everywhere, like on
fires, like actual legit fires. Like I got to see the flame
retardant being dropped from airplanes and stuff like that.
It was really cool. Oh my gosh, what a cool
(06:49):
experience. I mean, we're not supposed to
have phones, but yeah, super cool, yeah.
He would send me really cool pictures of really pretty
graveyards that were like overgrown in the forest and cute
little critters that you would find scary little tarantulas
that he would pick up. It was just really a unique
(07:11):
experience, I guess. Yeah, because you would have had
contact with him all the time, which is way different than most
people who met while incarcerated, you know?
Right. And like this was 10 years ago
now almost. I mean, it was pretty relaxed.
I guess fire camps still are pretty relaxed, but I would say
the fire camps are a little moreon top of those things like cell
(07:34):
phones and stuff like that. They've gotten better over the
years. They have gotten better, yeah.
Unfortunately, did you get to meet him while he was
incarcerated or was the first time you met him once he was
free? I did go meet him at Mount
Bullion and then after he got introuble for that cell phone,
they sent him to Mara Monte. So I went to two different camps
(07:56):
and it was a nice experience. It was really woodsy.
It was in the middle of the forest basically, and it didn't
feel like a prison at all. It wasn't intimidating.
There was no razor wire or anything like that, so it was
very relaxed and we could just hang out and finally get to know
(08:16):
each other in person. Was it as you expected?
Because you've been talking, you've been Facetiming, and then
you see him in person. Yes.
He was no different in person than he was over the phone or on
FaceTime or anything like that. He was just very honest and we
just clicked and it kind of feltlike I had known him my whole
(08:39):
life. And then he gets out.
You knew his charges before, correct?
Correct. Yeah.
So did you have any concerns that he might reoffend?
I really wasn't sure at first, but I did know he was honest.
So I did know that he said he wanted to come home, he wanted
(08:59):
to work, he wanted to have a family.
I did believe him there. I didn't know if he would like
relapse or reoffend. It was just kind of up in the
air. Did you guys talk about it other
than him saying that he wasn't planning to?
Was there like steps or any kindof boundaries or anything that
you had discussed to try and mitigate that risk?
(09:23):
I don't know, not really. Like when he first came out, he
stayed clean. He had been clean in prison all
that time, so I trusted him to stay clean, you know what I
mean? And the drug and alcohol abuse
is the only thing that ever really led him astray.
But when he was home and focusedon family and work and stuff
(09:47):
like that, he did really well. Wow, that's so nice.
So I've had experience with significant others that have
struggled with substance abuse and and it can be really
challenging to stay sober. And I imagine coming out of
being incarcerated back to the free world, there's so many
opportunities, although there isin prison too.
(10:09):
I really commend him for being able to stay clean throughout.
Coming home, yeah. And again, work and family
really kept him focused on not using anything so.
How long was he locked up for, by the way?
He was in there for I think around six years and his
(10:29):
sentence was 11 years. And at the time he was like, I
didn't even fight it. I didn't even care.
I didn't have very much hope or anything to go home to, so I
really just didn't care. Wow, so sad.
So he just let them sentence them to that and he didn't put
up much of a fight and he said that he didn't even really bad
(10:51):
an eyelash when they said 11 years.
Was that his first time? No.
So he's been in a few times. He had some stuff when he was a
juvenile. I think his first time in prison
was when he was 19. And then I think there might
have been a time between that first strike and him being 19.
(11:12):
I think he served some time in there, too.
So there was a lot of like in and out in his adults, even his
teen years. Which is so common the rate of
recidivism is insane. Especially when they get them as
juveniles, it's a really viciouscycle.
(11:32):
For sure. What would you say was the most
challenging thing when he came home for you guys?
I would say just trying to get comfortable in being in a
healthy, normal family setting. He had a pretty rough ass and
people with a rough past generally don't feel like they
(11:53):
deserve good things. And when things get good and
comfortable, they have a hard time believing that they deserve
that. So sometimes they self sabotage
by doing things like relapsing if they were maybe an alcoholic
or use drugs. So yeah, I think that was
something that he had to work on.
(12:13):
Him and I together had to work on our communication and
learning to deal with our past traumas, which spread up things
like trust issues, abandonment issues.
So yeah. Yeah, I think it's just so
common what you're saying about self sabotaging.
Even I can relate to that. It's something that is very much
(12:34):
attached to abandonment issues. And I think he was really
blessed to come into your world where you have strong family
connections, right? How did your family deal with
you bringing home someone who was previously incarcerated and
also didn't have a history of having that loving family?
So at first my parents weren't too sure about it.
(12:55):
He was actually in a treatment program, which is just like a
post release kind of program. And he didn't like it there
because people were using drugs around him and he really wanted
to stay focused. He wanted to go get a job right
away. He wanted to do something with
himself and not sit in a treatment center where people
(13:15):
are just using drugs. So he finally ended up moving in
with us and immediately he got to work.
We, he started working on getting his license, which he's
never had before. He never got to get his license
because he had a DY when he was a teenager.
And I think that was one of his very first like real run
(13:37):
insurance with the law. So that was kind of pricey and
he had to take a bunch of classes, but we got that.
And then he started working for a tree company that was actually
run by somebody that he was in fire camp with.
So yeah, the guy got out of FireCamp and he started his own tree
(13:58):
service with the skills that he learned at fire Camp.
Wow. And so he went to work for him
and he was with him for, like, Idon't know, maybe 5 or 6 years,
yeah. So he essentially did everything
that he said he would do. He followed through on that.
So your parents being maybe skeptical at the beginning, did
that help them accept him? Yes, definitely.
(14:20):
And he really put in a lot of work to prove himself.
My parents couldn't even depend on my own brothers to help them
with things. My dad when he came home was
about I think 74 and my mom was like 69, I believe.
So my dad could no longer do things like get on the roof to
(14:41):
do the air conditioner in the summertime.
He couldn't weed eat all of our property because we have a
pretty big piece of property. So he took on all those duties
for my dad. Oh my gosh.
He just really stepped up for mydad and really proved himself
there. Then my mom, she's very
(15:02):
sympathetic and they get along so well.
Sometimes I think she likes him better than me.
They're just so alike in personality.
They like the same foods, they like the same TV shows, they
love cribbage. They just sit along so well.
(15:24):
He really just fit into your family so well.
Yes for sure. My mom calls him her son and
don't you dare call him her son-in-law.
Like that is her son. That's her baby.
That is so sweet. He's never had that mother like
figure in his life so she made ahuge impact on him.
(15:47):
It really sounds like it, like I'm thinking of someone who
didn't have the best family lifegrowing up and then to be into
this whole loving family that just absorbs you and gives you
that opportunity and the abilityto bond in that way.
It must have been really nice for.
Him, right? Yeah, it definitely has been.
It's definitely softened him up and helped him just kind of undo
(16:11):
all that. Like being institutionalized.
Yeah, being institutionalized isjust so hard.
It's just a hard state of mind to get out of.
But just having us has really helped him do that.
And how long do you think it took from him getting out to
being at that comfort level and not being so institutionalized?
(16:32):
Was it a long journey to get there for him?
I would say, yeah, it was kind of a long journey.
It took time. I feel like even to this day, he
still works on just the symptomsof being institutionalized, you
know what I mean? But then him going back this
time, he was like, I can't go back.
He's like, it's just not me. Like, I don't even know how to
(16:54):
do that anymore. And I was like, yeah, babe, I
know you're too soft for prison.He's like, no, I am not.
And I was like, yes, you are. I said your wife tucked you in
with a blankie at night. You're soft.
But I feel like you just put on this old face, I guess, right?
Yeah. So that's one of the things of
(17:16):
growing up, how he did and the time he spent in prison.
He just had to just, I guess, reassimilate back into that and
he has a really easy time adapting to those things.
He's pretty adaptable. Yeah, and it's familiar for a
lot of people and. Yeah, it's definitely something
that he'll never forget. He doesn't want to be like that,
(17:40):
but he definitely knows how to get through.
Yeah. So.
When he was staying with you guys and integrating, I guess
for the first time into your family and everything was going
really good, you spoke earlier with me about your dad getting
sick and how supportive he was around that for you.
Do you want to just walk us through a little bit about what
(18:00):
happened and what he did to stepup for you and your family?
Yeah, so my dad had just had a cough for kind of a while, and
he finally went to the hospital to get it checked out after a
bunch of doctor's appointments and stuff.
And we thought that maybe he would be in there for about a
(18:21):
week. But as time went on, they kept
him in the bed for about 3-4 days, and that's when he kind of
started to lose just his overallmuscle tone and strength.
He's 81 at the time, so he just kind of started getting weaker.
He was already on dialysis and they had caught non alcoholic
(18:45):
liver cirrhosis extremely late. He was already in end stage by
the time they caught it. That was about two years ago and
I don't know how they never caught that.
I don't understand how in the blood work you don't catch that
somebody is in end stage liver failure.
(19:06):
So he's already had some things going against him and he was
just really weak from being in the hospital.
And so they sent him to one of those rehab places where they
get you walking again so that you would go home safely.
And he went to his dialysis after he got there.
And I can't remember, I think hemay be passed out or something
(19:28):
like that. And they had to rush him back
over to the hospital. So he continued to be bedridden
and not be able to rehabilitate and walk.
So it was just a lot of back andforth between going to the
hospital, going to the rehab, issues with dialysis, because
(19:49):
after so many years of doing dialysis, your body just can't
take it anymore. It's a pretty intense thing.
But in that whole time, Jr. was there with him 100% every single
day after work, on the weekends,any spare time.
My mom and I, we had things thatwe had to care for at the house.
I had the kids. So Jr. was pretty much the one.
(20:11):
To take care of all of that and stay with him because he hated
to be alone. He didn't like being in the
hospital. He didn't come out and say it
like, hey, I'm lonely. But we knew, and Jr. knew.
And so he was there every singleday to help him shave, clip his
(20:32):
nails. My dad had some loose teeth at
the time in the hospital and thedoctors couldn't really deal
with that because they couldn't give him the anesthesia because
of the dialysis to actually pullthe teeth and alleviate that
issue. So he had a really hard time
eating. So Junior was there every single
(20:54):
meal that he could be to make sure that he was eating
something. We would bring him like baby
food and stuff like that, and hewould help my dad eat and just
get something in his stomach. He would encourage him to drink
his protein shakes because that's really important for
people on dialysis. And he was just there every
single day, never missed a beat.Not even my own family could do
(21:18):
that for him. And then when it came time for
Hospice, which was a hard decision all on its own, my dad,
the whole time he was in the hospital, about two months, he
was begging to go home. We couldn't let him pass at the
hospital. So when it came time, we got a
(21:39):
bedroom ready, which Jr. helped us with.
We set up all the equipment whenthey transferred my dad from
hospital to the rehab center. The one time Jr. followed the
transport van so that my dad could see him out the window and
he followed him on his motorcycle so that he could see
(21:59):
that he wasn't going to leave his side.
It was really cute. He was just such a good son, you
know? So, yeah.
And then once we got him here, he helped us with all the
medicine and cleaning him up andmake sure that my dad was able
to pass with some dignity. So yeah, he took a really big
(22:23):
part in that whole situation. Devastating.
Devastating situation. Devastating.
For sure, and he was a huge emotional support for my mom.
As you're telling the story, andlike I told you before, this has
stuck with me since the first time I heard it because it takes
a special man to do that to someone they're not even related
(22:46):
to. And not only that, but it comes
to mind that your father passingthis man who you've chosen to
spend your life with has given your father that reassurance of
who he is. I don't think your father could
have asked for a better gift or security blanket knowing that
his daughter is going to be withthis type of man.
(23:07):
Oh my God, now that you put it that way, I never even really
fully grasped that. Yeah, like it's just not
something that you hear. I know, I know.
And you're so right. A father really wants to see
their daughter marry somebody that's going to take care of
them. Because I was a daddy's girl,
like 100% through and through. I was always by my dad's side,
(23:30):
hanging out with him in the junkyards and the auto shops while
he built his car. So I know it was important for
him to know that his daughter was going to be OK and his wife,
he needed to know that somebody was going to take care of his
wife too. Because my mom is so spoiled.
He took such good care of my mother.
(23:52):
I never realized it until after he passed.
And I was like, Oh my God, mom, Dad took such good care of you.
Like he did everything for you. Oh my.
Gosh, you know, so it must have been so hard for him while he
was passing to know that he was leaving more than anybody,
leaving his wife behind and alone.
(24:14):
But I'm sure it was reassuring for him to know that Jr. would
be there for my mom too. Yeah, yeah.
It's like he was able to pass knowing that his girls were
going to be taken care of because of the man that you
chose. That's so nice.
I know, right? What a beautiful way and just
even just taking care of this house.
(24:35):
I own the house that my mom and dad bought back in the 80s and
he knew that me and Jr. was going to take care of this house
and that his wife, the love of his life, gets to stay in this
house and we're going to keep her safe and comfortable here
too, just like he was. Yeah, so we're talking about him
(24:55):
and how he integrated into your family and all these beautiful
things that he did and what kindof wonderful human he is,
really. And then he reoffends.
What was that like? It was definitely hard.
We had had an argument and I basically kicked him out.
I told him I don't need you anymore, life would be better
without you. It was a nasty argument and I
(25:18):
kicked him out and he was gone for about two months.
He found a room to rent, but he had also started drinking again.
There was some outside influence, people that kept him
sidetracked and kept him from reaching back out.
And just saying, I just want to come home.
Just can I come home? Like, I'm not doing good out
(25:38):
here. I need to come home, you know?
And you know how much I love them.
I would have been like, yes, come home.
So you didn't talk to him for those two months?
No, not really. It was hard.
I was just trying to move on. I was trying to forget him and I
thought maybe this was it, maybewe're over.
And it was just strange to me that he also wasn't reaching
(26:02):
out. But I did know that there was
outside influences. Unfortunately, those people were
my own family. Yeah.
But he finally did reach out. We started talking, and one of
those nights, I think he was at his dad's and we were on the
phone and he was going to come back home.
(26:23):
He was ready to come back home. I told him not to drink tonight,
just go home. And I'm going to come to your
place. I'll see you soon.
And I had, I put the kids to bedand I called him and he didn't
answer. And I kept calling and he didn't
answer. And I started to get really
worried. He finally called me.
(26:43):
He said something had happened. So I went racing out of the
house. I really didn't know what to
expect. He was a little banged up and
under the influence and he couldn't even really explain or
remember what had happened, likea knot on his head, and it was
just like a really bad dream. It's definitely one part of our
(27:05):
past that I don't try to reflecton too much because it literally
felt like a nightmare. It was like after everything you
were going to come home and now you're not.
And did he tell you that night or he wasn't aware that he had
done something that wasn't legal?
He kind of started to piece things together over the next
(27:26):
few hours, him sobering up. He was pretty drunk at the time,
yeah. And then we kind of started to
piece things together. Oh my gosh, I can't imagine how
devastated you must have been. Yeah, it was definitely,
definitely something. And then there was the whole
arrest warrant, which was actually a rainy warrant, which
(27:47):
meant that they can go to anybody's house and bust down
the door if they have any reasonable suspicion that he
might be there. So he decided because he didn't
want the kids to see, he didn't want my mom to see.
He didn't want them traumatized.He didn't want them scared.
So we got him a lawyer really quick and then he went and
(28:09):
turned himself in. He went straight on down to the
jail and said here I am. That's like the most mature
thing you could do in the situation.
It was, yeah. And I think it also for the
judge, when she sat and read through all the litigations that
we had put together, I think that was another reason for her
(28:30):
making the decision that she did.
Did you carry any guilt around it?
I did. I did.
I felt like there was a lot of what if.
What if we hadn't had an argument?
What if I didn't kick him out? Maybe I shouldn't have been such
a hot head. There could have been some other
way that I went about it and he would still be here.
But anytime that I've brought itup and she gets on me about it,
(28:53):
he tells me I had absolutely nothing to do with it.
It's not my fault. I shouldn't feel guilty.
I shouldn't feel shame. It was his own actions and he
holds himself accountable 100% and tells me not to think that
way. Which is right.
I mean, he's so right. He, yeah, he made that decision
that night. He made a series of unfortunate
(29:15):
events, but they were all his. And he took ownership.
He took ownership of those decisions, which is part of
being a man and owning up to it.And it's nice that you were able
to have that conversation together about that.
And did that help you ease your?Yeah, yeah, definitely.
(29:36):
Yeah, He tells me, don't even think like that.
This has absolutely nothing to do with you.
This is not you. Just because we had had an
argument and you had made me leave that night, that has
nothing to do with my own decisions and my own actions,
right? And I think that's a honorable
way to deal with it. Absolutely it given the
(29:56):
situation And then was he in jail from then on or were you
able to get him out? He had a hefty price tag.
Oh, I'm sure those warrants don't come for nothing.
Yeah. So they wanted just a little bit
(30:17):
over a half, $1,000,000 for him.And yeah, and I didn't think
that I was going to be able to do it.
The main hang up was for a bail that big, they want about 5 to 6
cosigners. What?
Yes, yeah, I know. Not a lot of bail companies will
(30:38):
take that high of a risk withoutabout 5 to 6 people on the line
and a house for collateral. They want quite a bit, but I was
working with a bail company thatwe had used about three years
after he got out, the DA was trying to charge him with
(31:00):
something which they ended up dropping all charges because it
was just a bunch of nonsense. But we had worked with her
before and I had done a settlement with her where I just
paid her cash in full. And he never gave them any
problems or anything like that. He didn't try to run or anything
like that. And she trusted us and she
wanted to help us. So she actually went to bat for
(31:22):
us with her boss and she got herboss to agree to do it with no
houses, collateral, only three cosigners and about $35,000
cash. No big deal, No big deal as
you're telling me. I'm like, yeah, who?
(31:43):
If that were my situation, I don't think anybody would
cosign. I don't think I know one person
that would be like, yeah, all put up right, the risk of half a
billion dollars, no big deal at.First they just wanted $25,000,
but I couldn't get 5 cosigners, so she said for an extra 10
(32:04):
grand we'll let you do it with three cosigners.
Oh my. Money talk.
Yeah, money. Definitely talk.
So I pulled everything out of savings.
I pulled out a bunch of credit cards and I went down there and
I got him out and we put him on an ankle monitor for three years
(32:25):
as part of the bail term. The terms of the bail, he had to
be on an ankle monitor, which wehad to pay for every month.
So yeah, he was on that ankle monitor for three years.
He always did his check insurance and all that stuff.
So everything went well there. And as a matter of fact, the
lady that runs the GPS company wrote him a character reference.
(32:51):
Yeah, he was such a good customer that him a character
reference. That's awesome.
Precious, precious, the GPS ladyeven likes you.
Before we threw thousands of dollars at this lady over three
(33:11):
years, we were her best customerand we never gave them any
issues, you know what I mean? Like he always checked in.
So if you do the right thing, people usually tend to like you.
Yeah, especially in that industry, I think where there's
a lot of people that don't, it must be nice, like refreshing
for them to have someone so. Compliant I can't believe this
(33:33):
ankle monitor lady wrote you a character reference letter.
I. Love it.
What else did you guys do while you were waiting trial to try
and help him so that his sentence would be as minimal as
possible? So he stayed employed.
That was the number one thing. He kept a steady full time job,
(33:54):
which his boss wrote him a character reference to.
He did an outpatient rehab kind of program, which he got
certificates and stuff like that, but also his counselor
wrote him a separate character reference that was a little more
personal about him. He did just regular counseling,
(34:17):
like with a psychiatrist just tokind of like deal with his own
inner stuff. I just kept really close record
of all that kind of stuff. And then a ton of letters,
letters from one of his brothers, his sister, from me,
from my mom, from my dad. And then he wrote a very long
(34:39):
and well thought out, I guess, letter of remorse.
Is that what they're called? He wrote one and actually the
lawyer read through and he was like this remorse letter almost
brought me to tears. So it was very thoughtful and
very well written. Did anyone guide you on what you
(34:59):
should do in this time to help? Or was it just you guys kind of
like thinking up things on your own?
The lawyer told us yes, to obviously stay employed, do
volunteer work, character references, counseling, rehab,
just anything that we could think of.
(35:21):
So the lawyer wasn't very much help per SE, but what he did do
for us was he gave us a lot of time because he kept kicking the
court date just out and out and now until we were three years
into this case. So the best thing probably that
he could have done for us is what he did.
(35:42):
And he gave us three years for him to be out here and really
prove himself and show that he can be a productive member of
society because the DA was sitting up there calling him a
danger to society. And at the end of all of it,
with all the hard work that he put in, the judge straight up
(36:03):
told the District Attorney, I don't believe that he's a danger
to society. And she actually went against
probations recommendation and went against the DA's
recommendation and gave him lower term instead of upper
term. Amazing.
So rare. It all worked.
(36:25):
I know just putting in so much effort, it worked.
And through the whole thing, we didn't believe it.
We thought this was it. He was going to be gone for 14
years. He even signed the plea deal for
14 years. He signed his life away and we
were like, this is it. It's over.
The next decade of our life is gone together.
(36:47):
And it was just such a blessing.His lawyer and I, after the
sentencing, we sat outside of the courtroom on the bench and
for a few seconds we couldn't even say anything.
We were speechless, he said. In all my 30 years, I have
never, ever seen a judge make a decision like that in all my 30
(37:09):
years of practicing law. So it was definitely a blessing.
Yeah, for sure. You pretty much answered it, but
what do you think would have been different had he not had
that time to prove himself thosethree years?
It would be so different. At the very start, the District
Attorney was threatening him with I think like 24 years or
(37:31):
something like that. So if we wouldn't have fought
it, if I would have left him in jail, we would have never had a
chance. I don't think that people can
fight a case in a fairway from inside of jail.
The odds of so stacked against you, the outcome would have been
so much worse. So yeah, it was a huge risk
(37:53):
spending everything and maxing out those credit cards, but it
was so worth it. I would spend that money over
again. You know, you always hear
stories of money gets you out ofthings, right?
And sometimes you hear good stories about public defenders,
sometimes you hear really bad stories.
But it always all comes down to how much money you have gets you
the lighter sentences or gets you off.
(38:15):
And you don't even realize sometimes just how much of an
impact it would have. But I feel like your situation
highlights because how many people could put up that much
amount of money and have that many cosigners And right, it's
set up to fail. If you do not have the financial
means to be able to do that, you're essentially set up to
(38:35):
fail. I agree some people can't even
afford $1000 bail and it's just so stacked against people.
And honestly I didn't even have it all in cash.
It was credit cards. Luckily I have a huge credit
profile. I had fake money to spend.
It wasn't even actual money. It was a risk.
(38:58):
And the whole time he was out, he was like, I just need to stay
out and fight this case long enough to pay off these credit
cards so that I don't leave you in debt.
He was like, that is my worst fear that I won't be able to pay
off these credit cards before they take me back in, right.
So that was his number one concern because he didn't want
(39:19):
to leave me with a burden. Yeah.
Because I had taken this huge risk, even though he was like, I
don't think you should do this, this is stupid.
You know, if I had to come up with $35,000 to get my man out
for a couple years, I'd be there.
I have a large portfolio, too. I'm in.
(39:40):
You can have all my credit cards.
Yeah, and actually, to be honest, I called 2 of my credit
card companies to ask for a credit limit increase just to do
it. Yeah.
And luckily I've got really goodcredit.
So they were like, yeah, here, here's another $6000 here.
And yeah, Oh my God, I was just rambling to make it happen.
(40:04):
And by the grace of God, we madeit happen.
So throughout all this, did yourfamily's perception change?
Did their perspective on him change?
Did they think you were crazy tobe doing the things that you
were doing? Did they think that you should
leave him to? Be fair, my family already
thinks I'm crazy and they're probably not wrong.
(40:26):
But. In my family, for the most part
I don't really care for. I don't really talk to so it's
really hard to say what their opinion of me is.
I know they have a poor opinion of me until they want to borrow
money or they want me to sign ona car loan or something like
that. So honestly, I try not to care
(40:48):
what my family thinks. My mom, her opinion has not
changed. She loves Jr.
That is her son. He can do no wrong.
So cute. So yeah, it is pretty cute.
My littlest 1. He is 11 now, but when Jr. came
into our lives he was about two.So he doesn't remember a time
(41:13):
when Jr. wasn't in his life. And when he was old enough to
form opinions, he had asked me, does everybody have AJR?
Because he didn't know what a stepdad was yet.
He's too young to understand what a stepdad yet.
So he wanted to know if everybody had a Jr. because he
knows he has a dad, but then he's got a Jr.
(41:34):
Oh. My gosh, what a cute kid.
So, yeah. And so he just loves Jr.
He's taking him to go fishing for his first time, and he takes
him on adventures and rough and tumbles with him and does all
the boy stuff that moms don't generally do with boys.
(41:55):
I mean, I do boy stuff with him,too.
But like Jr. will get really down and dirty with the boy
stuff. And then also now your son will
have someone to teach him all the stuff that your dad had
taught Jr. like it's just passed.
Down Oh yeah, for sure. And J Rs dad taught him a lot of
stuff about cars and working on things here around the house and
(42:16):
stuff like that so his dad and my dad were very much alike very
hard workers, really knew how todo a lot of things and Jr. just
knows how to do everything. There's nothing really that he
can't do. He's fixed our septic tank,
which is just such a shitty job,no pun intended, but we just
(42:37):
were winging it and he fixed it.And it's so good to know that I
found somebody that can always provide for us and take care of
us and fix things around here. And I always tell him that he
looks so hot when he's working. So throughout this whole
process, did you ever question not staying?
(42:59):
No, it's never been a question. Yeah.
There's really nothing that'll make me love him less.
Yeah, it's a very unconditional kind of love through the hard
times. I can't imagine my life without
him. The types of adventures we have
and the things that we do, it's just very unique to us.
(43:21):
And incarceration is really nothing compared to the things
that we've already overcome together and the things that
we're going to overcome in the future, too.
We're going to come across otherhard things, and we're not going
to give up then either. My opinion of his character
hasn't changed one bit either. I know who he is.
(43:42):
I saw what he did for my dad. I saw what he did for his dad.
I see what he does for my children.
I love that because that's so true.
Yeah. And so that goes back to what
does my family think? What is my family's opinion?
Well, it doesn't really matter because I see who he is.
I've seen him do it. Do you worry he might reoffend
(44:04):
again next time he's out? No, no, I think this is
definitely it. He just so badly wants to come
home. The last time he was in prison
for the 11 years, he didn't really care about getting out
early. He didn't really care about time
off. This time around, he did a water
treatment operator program and got four months off.
(44:28):
Yeah, it's two different certificates.
And he was like, this is the first time I've ever done
credit. He was like, I never cared
before. He's like, I just so badly,
like, I'll take any course they want me to, just to be home
again. Yeah.
And I don't think that he'll relapse again.
(44:49):
I don't think that he'll take himself away from his family.
Yeah, you gave him something to live for.
Yeah, yeah. I think maybe 3-4 years ago we
probably took each other for granted.
We weren't very appreciative of each other.
And this time I think we both learned a lesson.
Yeah, we can't live without eachother.
(45:13):
I might have acted tough, like Icould live without him, but I
can't. We haven't really touched on
him, but he is fighting fires right now.
I guess it's not super active right now but he is on the team.
Yes, I think they're getting ready to make him first saw
soon. They are aware that he's been an
arborist for the past 10 years. So they're like, hey, we got a
(45:36):
job for you. Oh.
Nice. We heard you know how to run a
saw. Which would make sense.
Yeah. So, yeah, he was on the
Palisades fire, and then they moved over, I think, to like the
Hughes fire. He got to go to that Jelly Roll
concert for the first responders.
(45:56):
Yeah. And I got to see an actual video
of him there, and he was just sohappy and smiling.
I've never seen somebody so happy to be locked up.
You know it's Jelly Roll. I know.
And it was his first concert ever.
He was like, I cannot believe I'm going to my first concert
while I'm a prisoner. Wow.
(46:18):
He's never been to a concert. What a great concert to go to.
I would love to see him. I know he had a really good
time, like the very next day when he called me and told me
all about it, like that was all he could talk about.
I'm so glad that he got to have some kind of good experience
because those guys really do deserve it.
They work card and it boosts their spirits too.
(46:42):
Yeah, for sure. That sense of accomplishment,
that sense of giving back to your community.
A lot of people were just learning that we have
incarcerated firefighters, yeah.And so they got a lot of love.
Yeah, I think you've done such abeautiful job of telling us
about Junior and the impact thathe's had on your family and the
fact that even though he's reoffended a few times and
(47:05):
struggled through the prison system on multiple occasions,
that that doesn't define him andhe's so much more than that.
And I really appreciate you sharing all those things.
Is there anything else that you want people to understand about
your relationship or these typesof relationships in general?
I definitely feel like other people can have these same type
(47:26):
of experiences. It doesn't have to always be a
sad story. I think if somebody's focused
and they truly love each other, they can make it and kind of
defeat the odds together. There are blessings out there.
It's not completely hopeless. Yeah, but the lifestyle's not
for the weak, no. I think that's the trend of
prison wives. It ain't easy.
(47:48):
Yeah, it's worth it. Ain't easy.
Yeah. And not everybody can do this.
It takes a lot of love and a lotof dedication to do this and get
through this together. 100%, a lot of strength.
I find since obviously I've beenmeeting so many different people
from all over the country, and the general trending quality
(48:09):
that I found in the women that I've interviewed is strength.
There's a lot of independence and there's a lot of strength in
the women that are in these relationships and successfully
being in these relationships with men that are currently
incarcerated. We have to be.
I mean, we get judged a lot. There's a lot of stigma.
You have to be strong. You can't listen to that stuff.
(48:31):
Nobody knows your life better than you.
Nobody knows your partner betterthan you.
And we have a lot to take care of while our men are gone.
Yeah, I have a whole house with a mortgage and cars and kids and
a job, and we have to keep it all afloat while they're gone.
So it's a lot of hard work to maintain.
So you do have to be strong and you have to be independent and
(48:56):
you have to have a strong man that's willing to encourage you
to keep going. That's true.
Very interesting part actually. Is that encouragement?
Yeah, some, some men are not so encouraging and I think that's
where some people have a harder time maintaining these
relationships because it's a hard position for a man to be in
(49:18):
there and not providing for his family.
It's hard on their psyche. So it's so interesting too, that
you said that because it is something actually that I've
never really thought about because I find that my husband
is always continuously trying tofind different ways that he can
support me on different levels, like emotionally,
(49:38):
psychologically. And I never realized that until
you just said that like, oh, he does do these random things to
help me get through stuff because he can't be here
physically, you know? I know instead of beating me
down over things he tells me he's like, I am so proud of you.
Look at what you're doing. Like you fix the plumbing
(49:58):
yourself. You installed a new faucet
yourself. I'm so proud of you.
You are such a strong woman. You don't even need me anymore.
Well, thank you so much for coming on and thank you so much
for sharing your experiences. I really appreciate it.
And I just love your story and Ithink you're really blessed and
I wish you and him as a couple all the best.
(50:21):
He sounds like such a great human, and it sounds like you
both fit so well together that it's nice.
To hear. We really do.
And that's why I've never even considered giving up.
Yeah, for sure. All right.
Thank. You.
Yeah, take care.
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