May 29, 2025 • 53 mins
In this raw and deeply personal episode, we sit down with Pebbles- a woman who married a man serving time behind bars and battling the addiction he's struggled with almost his entire life. She opens up about the challenges, heartbreak, and unwavering commitment that comes with loving someone through their darkness.
From navigating prison policies blocking their access, to facing the painful grip of his substance abuse, Pebbles shares why she chooses to stay and how she holds on to her own strength. She elaborates not only what hope looks like, but what acceptance truly is, when the world tells you to walk away.
This is a story of loyalty, resilience, and the complicated yet beautiful truth about loving someone who's still learning how to love themselves.
Please follow the podcast and share with loved ones!
Find us on Instagram @podcast_prisongf or TikTok @morethananinmatesgf
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You are my home. I want to be wherever you are
because I'm comfortable, I'm safe.
I know that this is where I belong.
You are my home. Welcome back to More Than an
Inmate's Girlfriend. I'm your host Jay, and we are
talking addictions today. We are talking with Pebbles.
(00:21):
Pebbles is incredible. I feel like when people are
dating someone that has substance abuse issues, they're
often judged. Me personally, I've dated
someone with substance abuse issues and I know how difficult
it is and I know how difficult it was for other people to
(00:43):
understand. And for this reason, I believe
this episode is so crucial for those that have loved ones that
struggle with addiction, those that struggle with addiction,
and those that lack the understanding of why someone
would love someone who is addicted to meth, for example.
Pebbles explains it really well.Her opinions, her experience.
(01:06):
It's just rare I find to come across someone who explains the
situation and explains what's really going on so clearly and
with so much compassion that makes you want to listen.
I feel this episode was recordedquite a while ago, but I've been
(01:26):
waiting to release it for a longtime.
I really loved this episode. I really loved the conversation
I had with Pebbles and I'm so excited for you guys to just
listen to it. You're going to have a lot of
questions for sure. I'm hoping to get on TikTok live
again with Pebbles pretty soon here.
Not sure when we will let you guys know when, but she's a
(01:47):
really, really cool resource I think for all of us.
And I think she could really help those that are struggling
to love someone who has some issues with substance abuse.
So as usual, please follow the show.
Follow us on TikTok at More thanan inmate's GF.
(02:08):
Follow us on Instagram at podcast under Score Prison GF.
If you do want to be on the show, we are currently taking
guest applications so you can fill out a form on our Instagram
the be a guest form and we will get back to you.
AJ will e-mail you and that's it.
(02:28):
Enjoy my interview with Pebbles talking about addictions.
Cannot wait for you guys to hearit.
Have a good one enjoy. Welcome, Pebbles.
Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to have you.
I really feel like what you're about to talk about is so
(02:49):
important because so many peoplego through it.
And not only that, you have personal experience when it
comes to drugs and addiction, right?
Yeah. So walk life, I guess.
Like you have to be in those shoes to understand it, more or
less, yeah. So you and your partner talk to
me about it. Well, how did you guys meet?
(03:09):
So I met him in 2008 on Myspace.Myspace.
Myspace. Myspace.
Yeah, when Myspace was still thesame.
And then we went to Facebook andthen eventually we went up in
person and, well, we ended up having sex in my car.
So that kind of filled the deal.This man's going to be forever
mine. Were you in the same town?
(03:32):
So he lived about 2 1/2 hours away.
He just got out of juvenile corrections.
Oh, nice. And he lived in a juvenile
halfway house at that point. And then eventually he moved
down closer to where I was like 30 minutes away.
And we connected and I was kind of like, hey, do.
You remember what his profile was like?
No, no, I honestly, I just remember it was like a skater
(03:54):
kid because I was an e-mail girlback in the day, right?
Yeah. And so he was like a skater boy,
long shaggy hair. And it was like him right there.
Oh, my gosh. To next.
Yeah. Message him.
Doesn't remember what the conversation was.
I remember just like talking to him.
And then he reminded me when we got back in contact.
He's like, do you remember just talking hours on the phone when
we were younger? I was like, I thought you'd say
(04:15):
that. Yeah, we even had phone sex when
we were younger. Haven't changed much, right?
That's exactly what I was thinking.
Foreshadowing. Yeah, Maybe.
Yeah. Yeah, a little bit, yeah.
So do you remember what it was like when you first met him in
person? It was so awkward because I
picked him up and his friend andI had to go to his chick's house
(04:37):
that he was staying with so he could get the rest of his shit.
And I was just like, Oh my God, like this is simply so awkward.
Like I don't fucking have to deal with some random drama,
right? Eventually I had to anyway, but
that's besides the point. And I think he was drunk because
he took a bottle of liquor with him and remind you like he was
still under the age of 18 at this point in time.
So I'm like where we get bottlesof alcohol and my mom's like,
(05:00):
yeah, he can stay the night. It's cool.
I was like, OK, cool. So.
Yeah, you brought him back home day one.
Really cool. Back then I was going to bring
him back home, but then he pussied out.
I was like, OK. And then did you start dating?
What happened? No, cuz here's the thing, he had
a girlfriend at that point in time and I really didn't care.
(05:20):
I was 16. I didn't care.
I mean I ended up with him, I married him.
So I still won at that point in time.
OK, so did you lose touch or were you guys friends?
We did lose touch after a while.I don't even know what happened
to him for a longest time. And then I moved two hours away
from where I was living and I went to cosmetology school.
And then I started partying. I started drinking.
(05:42):
And then I started smoking weed.And then when I went back home,
I got into meth, got my first felony.
My mom died. Yeah.
Oh, I'm. Sorry.
And then, yeah, it was hard. Went to prison, had a kid, then
got married and then I got divorced.
I was homeless because it was through domestic violence.
So this will keep COVID. So there was no place for me to
(06:02):
go. I didn't have a job, I had no
income. I was living at ADV shelter.
The DV shelter was only a nine month long program.
So I was living on my friend's couch.
And then eventually I got my ownplace.
I started dating this other dudethat I also knew from the
streets that I used to get high with.
And then that just didn't work out because him and I were just
really toxic. And I was like, I wonder what
(06:23):
happened to this guy? And so I looked him up onto like
the DOC website and lo and behold, there he was.
I'm like, Yep. OK, so you just all of a sudden
one day you're like, I wonder where this dude was, who I met
when I was a teenager, where he is.
And then you think I'm going to go look on the prison website to
see if he's in prison? That's your thought process.
(06:46):
Yeah, so here's the thing. I always thought about him a lot
throughout the years and I was like, I'm going to check
Facebook and I'd always find hisold profiles.
Nothing new showed up. I was like, where is this dude?
And I was like there has to be 1area, one place I.
Did and it's the prison website.Yeah, it was the prison website,
Yeah. Wow, I have to know, what was it
(07:07):
about him that kept him in your mind?
I don't know. I think because we have that
connection when we were younger and we would just like, talk for
hours and hours and hours, that connection that we had, you know
what I mean? Yeah.
We were just close and nothing was judgmental or everything was
just like an open book. And he was like my person back
(07:27):
then. We just were too young to
realize it. I feel like, And I don't know,
I'm really good with names and I'm really good with people that
make an impact on my life, whether it be bad or good.
And it was just something about him.
I was just like, I need to reachout to this guy.
And when I first reached out to him, he was like, quote UN
quote, dating this chick, which might make me sound like trash
(07:48):
again, but it's fine because he's never met her.
And plus she's like 50 and he just turned 32.
I was like, OK, you're really not dating her.
So we're getting married. Seriously.
I literally said that wasn't like the first week.
I was like, hey, we're getting married.
And what'd he say? He's like, yeah, OK, we'll see
about that. I was like, yeah, OK, we will.
(08:09):
We'll see about that. Spoiler alert, you got married.
Yeah, got. Married.
Not even like a full year later.So he was dating someone else
and you just came in and you were like, I'm your soul mate.
So yeah. Yeah, basically.
Amazing. Yeah, amazing.
So you started dating right awaybasically.
Yeah, I guess. I mean, we didn't necessarily be
(08:29):
like, hey, are you my boyfriend?Are you my girlfriend?
Like, hey, like I'm yours. This is what it is.
Your attention is mine now. I love it.
So direct this is. Me, yeah.
Like he has no option. I know where like I'm here,
yeah. How long after did you get
married? 11 months.
OK, that's not John. What was that like?
I had to jump through so many hoops to do it, but I dreamt
(08:51):
through so many hoops. Well, so not only was I an
inmate in the same prison system, but I also volunteered
at the prisons because they changed my life around.
And I go into the women's prisonor the men's prison and try to
get them help, really. And like, recovery feels like
try to, yeah, I would go in there and be like, hey, like
this is what I do. Like, this is my story.
(09:13):
I've changed my life around. Like if you need help, if you
need to get out, if you need recovery help, I can get you
plugged into services. Right.
So I had to stop doing all that,get off that list, which took
forever, and I had to get approved by the warden.
Because you were a felony. Well, not only that, I'm not an
approved visitor still. You're not.
(09:34):
No. You're his wife and you're not
approved. Yeah, I'm actually banned from
all of the facility prisons. Oh my gosh.
Which, yeah. And I'm still able to go on
occasionally. I used to work with partnerships
and I'm still in contact with them, and I still kind of do
that work inside the prisons. I called them last week because
they're doing this big change from JPG to GTL, which is fine.
(09:56):
Whatever. I hate it.
And I was like, through the Grapevine, IC Solutions was
going to be the visiting. I was like, you have to be an
approved visitor. So I called.
They're like, oh, hey, you're banned from all facilities.
I'm like, oh, hey, just let you know, I was just walking through
your facility two weeks after that report was made, so.
Oh my gosh. They're like, well, we really
don't like that. I'm like, well don't try to keep
(10:17):
me from my husband and there wouldn't be an issue.
Did you see him when you were there?
I tried but he was in a cell andhe didn't have his day room and
because he's in Mac I wasn't able to go into his tear but he
knew I was coming. I was like, FYI, I'm coming to
try to see you. And he told all his buddies he's
like, yeah, my wife's gonna comehere and bring up cookies.
(10:37):
And they didn't believe him. And I was like, I'm pissed
because they didn't bring me to your peer.
And he like showed him their messages.
They're like, she actually did come out.
He's like, yeah, my wife knows what?
He's around to get in. When you got married, did you
see him at that point? Yeah, yeah.
OK. We're actually to have a
ceremony and I was able to go inand we were able to hug and kiss
and take pictures. And then he was supposed to go
(11:00):
back to a cell and then we were supposed to have our through
glass visit. But the visiting person was
like, you guys could just have to like last 30 minutes to visit
in person. I was like, yeah, yeah, it was
really sweet. And then with your glass, which
kind of sucked. So was it the first time that
you'd met him since you were a teenager?
Yeah, yeah. And did he look different?
(11:21):
Been like, no, I mean, we had video visits, So what each other
looked like, yeah, OK, but he didn't look any different.
Got taller. And two wrinkles and more
tattoos. No, no, no wrinkles.
What? I guess you guys are young.
Still, yeah. That's crazy.
What was that like, seeing him in person?
It was bitter sweet. It was bitter sweet.
(11:42):
They had to cuff him. They had to cuff him because
he's a violent offender. He likes to beat up the cops,
which I'm fine with. I'm still a convict and I still
have that from her mortality. And so they first walked him out
and they're like, what are you doing?
You can't walk him out without cuff.
I'm like, do you like honestly think he's going to beat you
guys up the day he's supposed toget married?
(12:03):
Can we have some common sense? I understand he's a violence
repenter, but at the same point,like he's not going up the day
he's supposed to get married. Like, I'm pretty sure he's more
afraid of me than he's afraid ofyou, right?
Agreed 100%. Yeah I wish they would
understand that. So Nick's facility hates me.
They don't let us do anything. They block all access and I'm
like, do you realize how much pull I have with this man?
(12:24):
What are you doing? Like yesterday, yeah.
He's like, babe, I might go to the hole.
I have to do something. I was like, OK again.
But today I was like, what's happened?
He's like, you should be proud of me because I didn't beat this
dude's ass. I'm like, I'm not saying I'm not
proud of you. I'm just really confused because
this dude owes you money and you're like, what's going on?
He's like, do you want me to be?Exactly.
Preferably not, but I would prefer you to get this money
(12:46):
right. At the same time, do they have
people that are local? I'll go run up on their house.
Oh my gosh, I love it. I could see how you guys would
get a lot. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, wow. And that was the only time you
saw him and he was cuffed duringyour wedding.
So they did uncuff him Once I got into the visiting room, we
(13:09):
were able to do that. But when we got back behind
glass, they had to cuff me. And like, do you guys want to
cuff me too? Like try another position.
I even asked the guard. I was like, hey, can you guys
can reinstate my DOC number? And I'll just, like, live with
him. Right?
Next door is open. He'll teach you how to fish.
I'm like, that's pointless. I want to lose my husband.
And then I was behind the glass for two hours.
(13:31):
Yeah. Wow.
Yeah. And he had me message his
friend's girlfriend. He's like, hey, I kissed a girl
today. And it's been a minute.
Like, did you take her to the janitor's closet?
He's like, because I would have taken my chick with a janitor's
closet. Like I thought about it.
Oh my gosh, it's hilarious. Yeah.
So rewind just a little bit because we didn't really talk
(13:52):
about his charges or anything. When you looked him up on the
DOC, you obviously looked at hischarges.
Yeah. And yeah.
So his original charge was manufacturing, OK, Manufacturing
that. So that was his original charge.
He's already topped out on that.And then so he's already
completed his full sentence on that, on that charge.
So he doesn't have to do time onthat charge anymore.
So then what happened? But since he's been down, he's
(14:15):
caught in five new felonies. Wow.
So he has two assaults on officers, 2 introductions like
contraband drugs into the facility, and then he has an
assault battery. He like beat up his old Sally
back in 2020, took a fan blade to this dude face and kind of
like made him into the Joker. Oh my.
Gosh, Yeah, yeah. What's good reason he.
(14:36):
Told me the reason why and I really didn't care.
I was just like okay, just don'tget any more charges.
You have 15 years left. Just don't catch any charges.
He has 15 years now. Yeah, he has 15 years left.
He gets out in 2040. So you knew when you were
talking to him what his out datewas.
Yeah, I knew. And then he told me about the
recent charge, the assault and battery with his old cellie.
(14:58):
He showed me his paperwork on video visits and I was like,
babe, I really don't need to seeit.
I don't need these bloody handprints all over your cell
door. I get it.
Doesn't bother me. I know who I'm marrying.
I understand the type of man youare.
I get it. So you don't need to prove
anything to me. So you really didn't judge him
or anything from the get go? No, no.
(15:20):
When I was 19 I took my first felony for this guy that I've
known since I've been 8. I don't have the reason to be
judgmental towards 90% of the inmate population.
Right. And do you think that your
history going to prison yourselfimpacted the way you see things
going on inside with him and howhe could have caught charges in
there? I don't know, because I grew up
(15:41):
my dad, when I was capable of remembering things, he would
sell weed and he would tell me, we've moved from California to
Idaho, so you wouldn't get into drugs and the gangs and this,
that and the others. He's like, obviously that still
happened. He's like when you were just
born. We had to get out of California
or I was either going to end up in prison or somebody was going
to kill me. So I think it's in my bloodline
(16:02):
obviously is like the criminal part, you know what I mean?
So it's just like, I don't know,like when I was eight, I was
like, I'm going to get arrested.Kind of cool.
I guess. I knew my past in life when I
was really young. So I don't necessarily think it
changed a lot of perspective towards anything that anybody in
there does. How was it when you went to
(16:22):
prison for the first time? I made in my mind like, I have
to look like a bitch. I have to look like a bitch.
I have to look like I know what I'm doing because really, I'm a
sweet girl, you know what I mean?
Like I'm bubbly. Yeah, I'm sweet.
I'm really compassionate. I'm empathetic.
But I was like, I'm not going toget pushed around.
I'm not going to deal with that.I'm sorry.
Plus, I have the friends that I've known from the streets,
like I used to get highways there.
(16:43):
And so I was comfortable, but I also had my guard up at the same
time, right? So was it a horrible experience
or did you adjust? No, it wasn't.
I adjusted really quick. My dad supported me barely.
When I was in there. I got $40 a month, which kind of
sucks, But at the same time, I had a little hustle.
I know how to braid hair. I went to cosmetology school, so
I can do hair. I do people's makeup.
(17:04):
I also had my body jewelry. And so I would sell my body
jewelry for money. Yeah.
Yeah. I threaded people's eyebrows.
Oh, yeah, it was. Yeah.
Yeah. So I mean, I adjusted really
quick. I made friends, you know what I
mean? Like my old space partner.
She also is in the recovery field now.
So like, we're still close. She was like 4 hours, 5 hours
(17:25):
away from me. But we still talk constantly.
And so I've made really good relationships from the prison
system as well. But I also feel like Idaho's
different than other states. How so?
Well, I feel like Idaho's not asextremely violent in the women's
prison as you would say, like California or like, I don't
know, Detroit. So kind of mellow and laid back.
(17:47):
The prison yard I was on, they didn't have fences.
We didn't have necessarily like security.
We had CEO, but we didn't have fences.
We didn't have a security walking around the yard all the
time. Like still to this day, girls
walk off and like escape, which is a minor escape charge because
there is no fence. But yeah, yeah.
Nick and I always joke because I'm such a social person that I
(18:08):
feel like it'd be so fun. Get to hang out with my friends
every day. I don't have to work, I get
food, I get shelter, I don't have to worry about bills.
Listen, sometimes I'm like, I wish I could just go do a six
months and take a break from life, right?
I swear to God I'm like, let me just take a break dude.
You know what? I can't wait to tell him
tomorrow that I'm not completelycrazy and thinking that it
(18:31):
wouldn't be so bad. No, you're not.
You're really not. I would love that.
Yeah. So anyways, all of this kind of
started with him with his substance abuse issues, correct?
Yeah. And did you know about them?
I knew he smoked weed at that point in time when we were
younger. I knew he smoked weed when we
first got back in contact. He's like, I had an 8 ball to
open my pocket when we had stepsin your car.
(18:53):
I was like, I had no idea. Like I would have even known,
like, really? And I never saw meth a day of my
life right before. Like they're easing it.
Yeah. He's like, yeah.
I was like, OK, cool. He was already doing it when you
guys wow. Yeah, my husband has struggled
with substance abuse since season 4.
Four. Yeah, he was huffing gasoline
when he was four years old. He started smoking weed when he
(19:14):
was like, 7. You know what I mean?
Drinking. It's.
How can I explain? It's not to party.
It's just his way of life. It's coping.
Yeah, it's what he knows, and that's the only thing he knows.
And it's shitty and it sucks because his upbringing wasn't
the greatest. His mom gave him up.
His mom had nothing to do with him.
He's been in and out of institutions since he's been 11
(19:34):
years old. You know what I mean?
Which he's 32 now, so that's 21 years.
All he knows is getting high, getting high and getting numb.
And I get it. I understand it, and I hate it
for him. I hate that that's what he feels
like he has to do to feel OK. And do you think his violence is
(19:55):
from that too? I feel like his violence is,
well, one. He doesn't want to look like a
punk when I get it, you know, Prism mentality.
He doesn't want to have people walk over him because he stands
his own ground. Right.
But I also feel like it's more of a guard, you know, like he's
protecting himself. He's guarding himself.
(20:17):
He doesn't want not to get physically hurt, but just to be
hurt in general anymore. That's his way of doing it.
And honestly, where's he at withit?
Because you're on this journey and you're sober, correct?
So he knows you are. Yeah, he still uses, he still
uses to this day and he tells mehe does like there's days that
(20:37):
he'll message me like 3-4 times a day and normally will message
like 30 times a day. I'm like, what are you doing?
He's like I'm in the rabbit hole, which means he's using K2
and I'm like just pay attention to me.
Give me your attention. I don't care what you're doing,
just love me, OK? Right, yeah.
I don't know a lot about K2, butI've heard that if you don't
(20:59):
hear from him, that's a good sign that something's.
Going on, yeah, yeah. They'll be like, what are you
doing? Where are you at?
He's like I'm with Alice or I'm down the rabbit hole.
So has he considered getting sober or is it just not really
an option? So he gets sober when nothings
around and that's when everything is great.
When he's using, when he's high,like shit becomes not
(21:19):
necessarily toxic for us, but it's rocky, you know what I
mean? Because there's that distance
between US and I hate it. But I also know that he has his
own demons that he has to deal with and there's nothing I can
do because I'm not there with him.
I'm his wife, but he can't tell me things that he wants to tell
me because everything's monitored.
(21:42):
So he has to deal with it himself.
And it makes me feel useless. But at the same time I
understand. I completely understand where
you're coming from on that because something just recently
happened and it's like we can't communicate because it's
recorded. And even you can't trust the
administration with anything that you say on the phone.
(22:04):
So even sharing your feelings orsharing your anxieties or
whatever, you can't trust it. So no.
And then they can't trust anybody there.
So they're just left alone to try and deal.
And it's horrible. And it really does feel like you
said, it's completely helpless as a partner.
Yeah, like yesterday's like, babe, I'm doing my own demons.
(22:26):
I just want to help you. I just want to be able to help
you because the type of work I do, I work with those that are
struggling addiction. I mean, I work with those that
are dealing with mental health. And he has bipolar.
So on top of his addiction, he has bipolar and he's not
medicated for it because the medication either makes him
sleep all the time or he can't go to the bathroom properly,
(22:47):
right? So he's like, I'm not taking
their meds because the prisons only have certain types of
medications that they can give you at 90% of the time they give
everybody the same medication for no matter what the diagnosis
is. Yeah, so he's gonna laugh.
He won't take it. Wow.
Yeah. Yeah.
Poor thing. How do you deal?
I don't know how I deal, so how do you deal with it?
(23:07):
I have to take it one day at a time because I have to remember
I've been in that position and Iknow what it's like.
I have to remember that it's lonely in there.
You're surrounded by all these people, but you can't trust
nobody in there. Almost like you knew them from
the streets and you actually like know them, know them for
years on time, but you're by yourself most of the time and
it's hard. So I just have to remember where
(23:28):
he's at, what he's going through, And if I was in that
position, what would I do? Right.
So obviously the future is unknown.
So for me personally, and like Itold you, I've dated an addict
and it is so hard. You married an addict knowing
that this could be, and it sounds it's his life.
(23:48):
And it's his life and I hate it and it's his life.
And here's The thing is, we've talked about what our future is
going to be like when we get out.
I know and he knows that he's going to continue getting high.
We both know that. And I understand that and I
still accept him for that and I still love him no matter what.
And I still plan on holding him down regardless.
So he saw parole board in December and they passed him up
(24:09):
for two years. And if he doesn't get a write up
in two years, he can be pulled out.
But if he gets a write up, whichhe already has, he has to finish
the rest of his time, which is 15 years.
So. So my thought process is my son,
our son is going to be 19 by thetime he gets home.
If he brings in my house and ourchild isn't home, that's one
thing. But if he comes home within the
next two years and he brings in our home, he can't do that
(24:32):
because we have a small child, you know what I mean?
And I don't want him going out and getting high with God knows
who and overdosing in the car somewhere.
I'm not allowing that. But I'm not also enabling him.
I know the type of man he is. I know what he's about.
I know what he's going to do. How are we gonna do it in a
proper manner to where he's safe?
I know he's safe. I can take care of him.
(24:54):
I can Narcan him if I have to. Mm.
Hmm. Because you can't hurricane.
Yourself right, but at the same time I need to make sure my
child's safe because I'm I'm comfortable in my recovery.
You know I mean I'm not worried about me relapsing.
Already made it point blank and clear.
I can't get high off of meth anymore.
He's like, I went with that. I'm like, that's great because I
like my sleep. I like to sleep.
(25:17):
You know what I mean? Yes, I do.
But. Yeah, I'm like, that's not fun
no more. I don't like staying up for gays
on it. That's not what we're doing.
I like my sleep too much. I like food, so don't worry
about me getting hot mess. But we have to figure out a
proper way for him to do it. Unfortunately.
Do it where he's safe and where everybody else in the situation
(25:39):
is safe, that is. So interesting.
It sounds like I'm. Enabling him?
No, really. Not I just.
Know because he has been using substances or getting high since
he's been four years old. That's all he knows.
It's like you. Accept him for who he is
knowing. Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely that this is. Him and it that's part of the
(26:02):
package so you're like how do wedo this in a Safeway because you
are going to do this because this is a part of who you are I
feel like that's the ultimate love on top of that I.
Grew up in a household with an addict and alcoholic.
When my mom passed away, my dad told me she would take me to Cal
and bring, I don't know if it was meth or cocaine, but she'd
(26:22):
bring back home meth and cocaine.
And so I grew up in that environment.
So I'm used to it and unfortunately I'm comfortable in
it. And that's not to say it's a bad
thing, but it's not socially acceptable.
And I get that. I get that because addicts get a
bad reputation. Addicts get like, these are
junkies. All they're ever going to do
(26:42):
with their life is still or Rob or this, that and the other.
Not all of them are that way. Some of them have to live, and
this is the only way they know how to live.
Yeah. Honestly, I don't think I've
ever heard anyone speak of it like that because you're
absolutely right. There are people that are just
never going to not be in addicts.
It just is what they. I mean, he was four years old.
(27:03):
You're not going to change whom at all?
Yeah, it's. All they know, yeah, it's all
they know. I find you're so.
Realistic. This is the reality.
I love an addict. I've accepted that that I love
an addict, that he's my person. Yeah.
And we're going to mitigate the situation so that I can keep you
safe. I feel like you literally just
gave a perspective that so many people wouldn't even think of.
(27:26):
I mean like. I said my life has always
revolved around some type of addiction and not only have I
lived it, but my sister, she's still an active user.
I have friends that I'm not close with anymore because I've
got Sanus over and I've made that boundary and they're still
using it doesn't mean that I don't love them any less.
It's just I have a child, but I need to make him my a priority.
(27:47):
100% they. Understand that.
Yeah, no. That makes sense for sure.
Wow. I'm like, I love it.
It's so interesting to me. I've never even thought about
that. And I feel like so many people
try and fight out the addiction and like, oh, I hope when he
comes home he's gonna get sober and all this stuff.
But you're like, yeah, I'd love it if he got sober, but it
really might not happen. Yeah, I would.
(28:09):
Die and go to heaven, God forbid, but if he got sober,
we're not bad. Like I said, we're not bad.
When he gets high, things get rocky because I'm constantly
needing his attention because I borderline personality disorder.
I've been diagnosed with it since I've been 19 years old.
So I had that constant fear of abandonment, right?
And he gets high and goes ghost for hours.
(28:29):
I'm like, what are you? Are you OK?
I need to talk to you and I'll call down to the prison.
Like where's my husband? I kind of go streaming
overboard, but I've calmed down within the past couple of years
because I know his routine and his mannerisms by now.
But if he did get sober, that'd be great.
But in reality, it's not going to happen.
And at this point, when he goes ghost, how long do you wait till
(28:51):
you call the prison? About 24 hours.
OK, not. Too bad.
Yeah, 24 hours. And I do my research before I go
like crazy. I'll reach out to my friends
who's has men in the same prisonfacility.
Hey is. J Pay down.
Have you heard from your man? Has he called you today?
No, I haven't heard from him. Like, I think J Pay's broken.
Yeah, he's called me. He'll probably call you.
(29:13):
Last year, we were supposed to get married in March, but we got
married in April. And him and his bunky, he was
still a Max. He's over Maxim still.
And his bunky got into a fight. He ended up going to the
hospital. I knew something that night
because he was messaging me. He's like, I'm going to take a
nap or something happened. I was waiting for something to
come in the mail for him. And, and he was supposed to
message me back or something. I can't really remember, but I
(29:35):
felt it in my gut something was wrong, you know what I mean?
I was like, what's going on? Why I haven't heard from my
husband? Where is he?
And I didn't hear from him the next day.
And so I got a call from one of his homies that are in there
like, hey, he went to the hospital.
I was like, excuse you, what do you mean he went to the
hospital? They're like, we don't know what
happened. All we know is we saw him get
taken down like her. And he was like, OK, I called
down to the prison. They're like, we can't give you
(29:55):
any information. I was like, OK, so you're like,
we advise you to reach out to public records.
I didn't call public records. I called prison the next day and
they're like, yeah, he's in the Infirmary.
I was like, excuse you for what?They're like now you reach out
to public records. So I called down there and
they're like, how do you know he's in medical?
I was like, because the cops told me.
What do you mean? They're like, well, they weren't
supposed to tell you. I'm like, well, they did.
So what happened? Did he get stabbed?
(30:15):
What happened? They're like, no, he's fine.
He's probably, he'll be in bruised.
He'll be OK. I'm like, so when am I going to
hear from him? Because we're going to have an
issue like I'll go down to your office right now and start
swinging. You know what I mean?
And then how long till you? Spoke to him, he called me.
It took five days. It took five days.
From when I last. Spoke to him, he was able to
call me. He was like hey babe and I just
started balling. I knew something bad happened.
(30:38):
I didn't get the full detail. His homies would reach out to
me. One homie called me, another
homie had his sister reach out to me and tell me, hey, he went
to the hospital. I was like, OK, what else am I
supposed to do? I was like so torn and
everything part about me, I was just depressed.
Like instantly depressed. Like I had nothing to live for.
I was like, I need my husband. I can't continue.
(30:59):
I can't continue acting like I'mOK and going on with this life
without my husband. And unfortunately it's not
unfortunately because I love my child.
But I still had to put on that show.
I still had to act like everything was OK.
I still had to continue to do what I did.
I still had to continue to go towork and I still got our
tattoos. He called me.
He's like, what are you doing? I was like, I just got done
(31:20):
getting our matching tattoos. He's like, you still did that.
I was like, yeah. What do you mean?
What are you talking about? I told you I was going to not
not going to do it. They told me that you're alive
and I'm happy sort of bawling. I was like, I'm so happy you're
OK. I knew you were alive.
It sucks not hearing from you. I can't stand it.
Yeah, I'm still getting our matching tattoos.
(31:42):
I needed tattoo therapy. I needed that pain, OK, because
I was his eye. And the only thing I could deal
with that right now is getting into my hands.
Was that the longest you'd gone without talking about?
No, no. That was just the first time.
It was like the most of your time.
He's gone through the whole multiple other time for like,
drinking, making hooch, fighting, you know, typical.
(32:04):
But he always found a way to call me within the first two
days, OK, or at least reach out to me some way.
And then he would find somebody's tablet and I would
just add them on JP and start messaging in that way.
Right, Right, right. Yeah, so you've shared a lot
about him, but I want to know more about his qualities.
What makes him so special to you?
(32:25):
This man knows me inside and out.
He asked me something on our video visit on Sunday.
And he's like, I need this done.And you know, I was like, no,
he's like, I see that smile. Like he knows me better than I
know myself. You know, I mean, and it's crazy
when I first reached out to him,he's like, how many kids do I
have? I'm like, hey, I just got one
kid. He's like, OK, cool, whatever.
I was like, I'm not going to make you his dad.
(32:46):
That's not my decision. That's yours.
I'm not going to force you to besomebody else's kids dad.
I'm not going to do that. Well, I was doing a video visit
with him one day and I asked my son.
I was like, hey, who is this? He's like, that's dad.
I was like. And so he stepped up to that
role. Oh wow.
So your son knows him as his dad?
Yeah, Yeah. Yeah, and he's, he stepped into
(33:07):
that role really good. I tell him he's a better parent
than I am. And what makes him I?
I feel like he's just. More level headed because I am a
short temper, which makes me sound like a horrible mom, and
I'm really not. But I have a short temper and my
patients run thin. Yeah, but husband's like, babe,
he's sick. Yeah, he has to.
You have to remember he's like, you need to be calm.
You need to do this. Tell him to do this, and he'll
(33:28):
talk to him. He's like, hey, bud, what are
you doing? You know what I mean?
He's like, you have to do good in school.
You have to listen to your mom. You have to clean your room and
my kids. Like, yes, that.
You're right. I'm sorry.
I love you, but he's a really good father figure.
You know what I mean? It's so funny.
It's so funny the way he is. He gives me these little quote
UN quote goals or challenges andit's.
(33:48):
Hilarious. He's like, I want you to stop
vaping for like 30 days to see if you can do it.
I'm like, OK, but, and I'm just that person.
I'm like, OK, I can prove you wrong.
He's like, I bet you can't do it.
Three days. I was like, OK, watch me do it
anyway, right? Yeah.
Yeah, Nick does the same thing, but he doesn't give me
challenges. But he'll be like, like most
recently it's water because likeI'll complain of like a headache
or my stomach hurts and he's like, did you drink any water
(34:09):
today? And I'm like, no.
And he's like, what is wrong with you woman?
Drink water that he's on me about it every day We like to
do. Like most every other prison
couple does. Yeah.
They like to do things with eachother, like watch movies or you
know what I mean? Yeah.
And we made one when he's still in Max.
We were working out together every day.
(34:30):
Because when he's in Max, I can set up the same day visit.
Great. I loved it.
It was amazing. Cool.
So we'd work out for 15 minutes together.
Yeah. And I hated it, but it was fun.
I know. Yeah, I know.
Exactly what you mean. And he makes me do stuff like
burpees and I'm like why do I have to do these prison
workouts? Can't I just use weights?
It's way easier. I know he's like.
(34:51):
I need you to do it was like 5 minutes of wall sit or not wall
sits, but 5 minutes of step UPS.Yeah, 10 minutes of squats and
like, brutal. Are you kidding me?
My knees are too old for this. Yeah, I know exactly what.
You're talking about. Yeah, I love at the beginning of
the episode when you talk about all these horrible things that
he's done and how he's gotten inso much trouble and he's an
addict. And then now, just like how
(35:11):
lovable he is at the same time, you know, Yeah, when I.
Married him and when we got to hold each other and kiss, I was
like, this is home. Like you're home.
He's like, what do you mean you have your own home?
I'm like, you don't understand? Like you are my home.
I want to be wherever you are because I'm comfortable, I'm
safe. I know that this is where I
belong. Like you are my home.
(35:33):
I relate to that so much. Nick lives in Nebraska.
I don't live there and I don't want to live in Nebraska, like
ever. If I don't have to, I won't, but
I'm going to have to at some point.
But every time I fly in, I feel home.
Never in a million years what I thought about whenever I'm
flying in, I'm like, I feel at home even.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I live 10 minutes.
Away from the prison here. Lucky, yeah.
(35:55):
No, I can't even go. On the prison yard, I can't see
my husband. I've been denied.
I took it to the chief of prisons.
They still denied me. And I'm just like, when can I
visit my husband? What is that gonna?
Look like that's bullshit. I don't know.
I get reapplied to this April. They're like, you can reapply in
a year. I'm like, dude, you're a long
time and like, I had to jump through the hoops to get
married, right? Yeah, it's.
Crazy. So 7 times you've been denied?
(36:17):
Is that what you said? Yeah, I've been denied.
Seven times. Oh my God, yeah.
I feel like my situation is so unique that they just don't even
know to do right. Right, because you were an
inmate, since you're volunteering, you know the
facility. He's a violent offender.
Yeah, that's a whole lot. That would be a whole.
Yeah, that's. I even told him I.
(36:39):
Said, listen, you guys can stripsearch me like you guys want to
do a cavity search. You can do that too.
I'll do whatever stipulations you guys want me to do just so I
can see my husband. Yeah.
And they didn't go for it still even.
Behind glass, right? Yeah, not even behind glass.
Wow. I'm sorry, I mean, I'll.
Eventually get through it, I'm. Banned too, I don't know,
(37:01):
indefinitely. They put indefinitely and
they're supposed to put a lettersaying when I can apply again or
whatever. Yeah, but they didn't put a
date. They blocked me on the phone,
they blocked me on the GTL messaging.
I can't video visit, I can't in person visit.
It's just a joke. So we've talked a lot about
loving an addict and your history with it and everything,
and I really like your perspectives.
(37:22):
Is there anything else that you want to add?
Advice for people who are datingpeople who are struggling with
addiction in inside anything that you've learned or even from
your work experience, people cope.
Differently So for me, I have that with experience.
I've been around in my entire life like I work with these
people. I understand what it's like, but
(37:42):
I feel like from somebody that doesn't have out of experience,
you need to understand that it'snot as easy as you think it is.
It's not as easy as you think itis.
And I can't reiterate that enough.
Addiction is a forever battle. It's not, oh, you can stop using
whoever you want to stop using. No, it reconstructs our brain.
(38:02):
Our brain is constantly chasing that same euphoria, that same
high, and we can't get that whenwe're sober.
We can't get that same feeling where we're sober and it's not
even just like a high. It's sometimes how we cope.
Some people use for pain, like physical pain and it's like,
dude, it's so hard to understandaddiction if you haven't lived
(38:24):
through it, if you haven't had somebody that you loved deal
with it and seeing how it affects them.
So being able to not only be compassionate and empathetic
with what the person's going through, but be understanding
and not necessarily enabling, but try to talk like, Hey,
what's going on? How can I help you?
What, what is one thing that you're struggling with that I
(38:46):
can help you in the here and now, whether it be talking to
somebody, figuring out ways for you to be able to feel
comfortable with what you're doing safely.
Like I said, not every attic's going to get clean and sober,
and that's the unfortunate truthabout it.
There's a three to 8% chance everybody that uses is going to
(39:07):
stay clean. Yeah, I heard.
And that's that's hard. Yeah, it's hard, it sucks, and
that's just what our society is nowadays.
But being able to understand andbeing able to love that person,
no matter how hard and how ugly and how dark life get, and
showing that you're never going to give up on them.
Like give them hope that life isgoing to get better if they get
(39:30):
sober. My husband's done everything to
piss me off. And he hasn't cheated on me.
He hasn't cheated on me because I would break his neck.
But he's done everything that hepossibly could to put me through
the ringer. And most women in my position
would be like, I can't do this. I throw my hands.
If I throw in the towel, I'm done.
(39:51):
But being that person, being that positive support, being
that person that never gives up on somebody when they're
struggling and when they're at their lowest, you have to think
they're in this facility. I mean, they don't have
sunlight. They don't have this vitamin D
that we're supposed to get therein a close facility with.
It's Gray. Like these facilities are Gray.
When you walk in it, there's a distinct smell.
(40:12):
Every prison smells the same andit's crazy.
Every single prison smells the same as the gel smell the same.
When I married my husband last year, I was like flashbacks, you
know what I mean? Flashback's gone.
I can't stand the smell. But they're in this confined
area. They're told when they can and
can't shower. They're told when they can and
can't talk to the people they love.
(40:34):
They're told when they can and can't eat.
Their lives are literally controlled by somebody else.
It's a desperate feeling. And some women, they're men who
are on an open tier where they have day room all the time.
Some men are like mine and yours, where they're confined
for. They only get out for an hour or
two a day, and regardless of thesituation, they're still under
(40:59):
control of somebody else. They still have count time, they
still have child time, they still can only shower at certain
points of time. Some might have a little bit
more freedom compared to others,however, it's depressing that
makes you feel less than what you are.
It's demoralizing. And if you put yourself in their
shoes, if you change the perspective around to be like,
OK, if you're locked in your room 24 hours a day, like you're
(41:20):
not going to be happy, you're going to be miserable.
You know what I mean? And it's depressing.
People kill themselves in there.Because it.
Sucks people literally kill themselves in prison because how
shitty their lifestyle is in there.
It's hard. It's not.
Easy, they overdose. It's hard.
It's a hard life. And just to have a little bit of
(41:42):
understanding, a little bit of compassion and empathy towards
these people that are locked up is such a huge game changer for
them. And they're like, OK, this
person really is for me. This person is on my side and
gives me a little bit of hope, gives me a little bit of
something to look forward to. So being able to understand that
and being able to understand whythey use and why they do what
(42:03):
they do in there because they have nothing better to do.
They had nothing better to do but get high.
And 90% of the time they're not getting high on meth.
They're getting high on K2 or fentanyl or Suboxone or heroin,
Anything that makes them sleep so they don't have to deal with
day-to-day life in there becauseit is so depressing.
(42:23):
They don't want to have to remember the shit that they did.
They don't want to have to remember that this is what their
life is right now and for however long it is.
So being a little bit compassionate, being a little
bit more understanding in that situation towards them and
realizing this isn't easy, It sucks and this is what it is
right now. But showing that person that you
love them regardless of what it is and standing by them and
(42:44):
understanding their addiction, where it's coming from and what
they're having to go through. I'm not saying an aid one them
don't. I'm not saying go out, get the
drugs and send them into them. Like obviously somebody else is
doing that. Don't get yourself in a
situation that can get you arrested and put in that same
position. But understand that this is how
they cope. This is how they mentally check
(43:05):
out. Means when people go out to
clubs and bars, just have fun orwhatever, people get up black
out drunk. What's the difference of them
drinking in there to us drinkingout here to not aware of pain?
So just a little perspective. Yeah, I feel.
Like what you just said, just not like I'm sitting here
listening to you. And I have a little bit of
experience with people with addiction.
Obviously, I have experience with the prison system, and I
(43:28):
feel like you painted a really vivid and true and brutally
honest example and portrayal of what it's like.
So I really appreciate that. I'm sitting here like, wow, I
really feel it, you know? Yeah, yeah.
Absolutely. Like I tell, I tell women on
Facebook all the time, hey, my husband's getting out.
What do I need to do? I'm like, hey, this is what you
need to do and this is what you shouldn't do.
When they get released, you haveto understand that they're
(43:50):
coming from a controlled environment.
Everything. And they're slow.
Everything's routine. Everything's by schedule.
Yeah. So when they come out to the
real world, it's fast-paced, It goes so fast and they get
overwhelmed, they get over stimulated and they don't know
what to do but go and get high because everything's so
uncontrollable for them and theyare so overwhelmed that the only
way they know how to cope is to get high.
(44:11):
It's so hard. Like when I got out of prison, I
only did two years. When I got out of prison, I went
to Walmart. I had a panic attack and I was
only there for 5 minutes. Yeah, I was only there for 5
minutes. I had a panic attack.
I was like, Dad, I've got to go.I can't be there.
Too many people, too much going on.
If still to this day. I'm such an isolated person
because of prison. I don't like open areas.
I don't like people. When I go out to eat, my back
(44:34):
has to be against the wall. You know what I mean?
Yeah. So it's just you have to
remember, interesting. The environment they're coming
out of, to the environment that they're coming into is such a
180 complete black and white difference that they're not used
to this lifestyle anymore. They're not used to everyday
life. Yeah, it makes sense and.
I feel like they also don't realize that they're going to be
(44:55):
like that because, like, Nick's first thing he wants to do,
Yeah, he wants to go to Walmart.And he's such an introvert, and
he can't wait to go to Walmart. Now.
I'm like, there's no way I'm bringing you to Walmart if you
ever make it out. No way.
Yeah. Yeah.
My husband, like, I'll be fine I'm like, baby, trust me.
You're going to need to take a few months to reintegrate.
It's not even. You have to give them grace.
(45:16):
Yeah, you have to give them grace.
And you have to be understandingbecause they're going to trip
out. They're not going to be OK.
They're going to have breakdowns.
They might blow up and explode. You never know what they're
going to do when they get out because the way that they're
programmed in there compared to out here is such a difference
that they're not going to understand how to handle
themselves in such a fast-paced society, you know?
(45:40):
So just giving somebody grace and understanding that they're
not used to this life, that they're not used to this life,
and just being calm and patient,supportive of them is so
important that it not can only save their life, but help them
grow into be something productive, you know?
Yeah, I feel like. He's so blessed to have you.
(46:03):
This is all I'm feeling. I have such.
A heart for anybody that's incarcerated.
I don't even not explain it. From being there to
understanding what it's like. Yeah, I have.
Such action for the prison system is not necessarily being
reformed, but reintegrating and helping those get on their feet
because like I said, I was there.
(46:24):
I got out of prison, I got pregnant.
I ended up homeless because the halfway house that I went to
didn't allow children. So I had to go to a homeless
shelter the entire time I was pregnant.
And then I got into my apartmentand I moved a couple hours away
to be with my ex-husband. And then I mean, a relapsing
domestic violence happened. I ended up homeless again.
So it's not easy, you know what I mean?
(46:44):
It's not easy, but it's possible.
It's really possible. You just have to be patient and
like understanding and know thatit takes time.
It takes a lot of time, and it'snot going to be as lovey dovey
as fast as most people think when their partner gets out of
prison, that it's going to be rainbows and flowers and
(47:05):
sunshine. Yeah, Sparkles.
No. It's not, it's really not way to
burst bubbles. Bubbles.
Well, I mean, it's the truth. It's not going to be that easy.
And it sucks. It sucks, but going through the
motions, you're going to have towalk through the trenches of
hell. You know what I mean?
It's not going to be easy. It's not going to be easy, and I
(47:26):
can't say that enough. You're going to have to be
patient. You have to be patient.
If you can't deal with that, then I don't want to sound like
it's this bitch. If you can't understand that, if
you can't be OK with going through all the motions of the
reintegrating into society, everything, the headaches, the
outburst, everything that it takes, then you might want to
(47:47):
reevaluate what you're doing. Because it's not going to be
perfect. It's not going to be perfect,
and it just sucks and it's hard and it's not beautiful.
It's a whirlwind. It's a whirlwind and it's hard.
But in the end, it's worth it. You know what I mean?
Like it really is. If you can get through that, you
can get through anything, right?Going through not only having
(48:08):
someone incarcerated, but then surviving when they actually
come out, it really is a unique experience.
I think it really is speaking. From my own personal experience
of being released, you know whatI mean?
Like, I know what it's like for me, and I can only imagine what
it's like for somebody that's done, like my husband, 11 years
and has to see more to go. Yeah.
So I can only put my perspectiveinto, like, think about it like
(48:29):
10 times more. When he gets out, I'm going to
have to buy everything for him prior to it, Yeah.
And lock him into my house for like a week.
Yeah. And.
He's gonna wanna get. High.
Yeah. He's gonna wanna get high.
That's how it is. I understand that.
I get that. Yeah.
But at least he's gonna be getting high where I know he's
safe. Exactly.
When you think you have another 15 years, I told him.
(48:51):
I told him when we first startedtalking, I'm like, I know how
much time you have left. I get it.
I know that you've had multiple different relationships in the
past where they've left you. You've been cheated on this,
that and the other. But I can tell you this.
I understand what you're going through right now.
And I haven't done this much time, but I can tell you that I
know how hard it is. And I've been through.
I've been on the other side where I was in a relationship
(49:12):
with somebody and they cheated on me and it crushed my heart.
Yeah. And.
I'm not going to say that there hasn't been times where I'm
like, I don't know if I can do this.
You know what I mean? I don't know if I can put up
with this for 15 more years, butI've made that commitment and I
know that this man is my home. He's the other half of me.
He's my twin flame, he's my bestfriend that I will do anything
(49:36):
for this man. I will go through everything.
And I told him, I'm like, I'm going to hold you down
regardless and I'm not going to step away from that.
I'm not person that like to stick their words.
My words means everything to me.If I can't stand by my word, I
can't stand by anything. Exactly.
You're only as. Good as you and that's just how
I. Am I still have that similar
mentality? So I told him, like, if you have
(49:57):
15 years, just don't get any more charges.
Don't overdose and get any more charges.
That's all I'm asking. That's all I'm asking.
Don't catch any more charges, don't catch any more time, don't
overdose. And he agrees.
He's like, OK. I was like, no, I need you to
promise me that you're not goingto do it.
He's like, I promise. I'm like, OK, cool.
So he hasn't done any of that sofar.
And I'm still here and I'm not going anywhere.
You know what I mean? Yeah.
(50:17):
There's been close calls. Yeah.
Nick has a life sentence. Yeah.
And he lost his appeal, like oneof his appeals in April.
And it was hard. And then we lost again.
His lawyer filed his appeal a minute too late, so it got time
barred. And so like years and years of
work down the drain was stupid, stupid, stupid lawyer.
(50:39):
And anyways, he was like, can you give me 12 more years and
then I can try for a commutationbasically at the 25 year mark.
And yeah, a lot of my friends are like, you're you married,
someone with a life sentence. Are you crazy?
And I'm like, yeah, but is thereanother way?
Can you show me another Rd. doesn't exist?
No. So, you know, I just don't see
(51:00):
there's another path. So if there was another path, if
I thought I could find another man like him, like this is not
possible. So we're just.
No, we're just. I tried.
These guys out here in their trash.
Yeah, same. Like put them in the dumpster?
Worded long. Exactly.
I just can't imagine. I remember the day he lost his
appeal. And it was like, in that moment,
(51:22):
I was like, I'm never leaving this man's side.
Like, I cannot. Yeah, even.
And yeah, we'll just make a lifewith what it is.
So guess what? I'll end up in Nebraska.
Make the best. Of it exactly.
Exactly. We're just gonna have to make
the. Best of it, and it's gonna be a
struggle, but it's worth it in the end, you know what I mean?
Yeah, we choose our. Heart right?
Like other people have other problems, we just have this one
(51:44):
and we can do it. We can survive this, absolutely.
Pebbles. It has been a time, so thank you
so much. I feel like you have given so
much information and so much perspective for people to think
about and so unique. So thank you so much because I
really think it'll be really interesting for a lot of people
(52:05):
to hear your perspective for for.
We need to find more perspectiveon what they're going through
than what we're going through atthis point in time like.
Absolutely. You know what I mean?
Like, yeah, people. Assume these guys deserve what
they're getting. Or like in your case, look at
his history. Do you blame the guy?
Yeah, no. Absolutely not.
Like, yeah, why are we going to point blame at somebody that
(52:25):
struggles like 90% of our nation?
You know what I mean? Exactly what's?
The point. Yeah.
Well, anyways, thank you so much.
I appreciate it. It was a blast, really.
I had a good. Time.
Yes, I enjoyed it all the best. I hope that you get access to
your loved one and get to see him in person again soon.
I know that. Feeling.
(52:47):
Take care. Thanks again.
Yeah, you too. We'll talk to you later.
Yeah, Bye.
You are my home. I want to be wherever you are
because I'm comfortable, I'm safe.
I know that this is where I belong.
You are my home. Welcome back to More Than an
Inmate's Girlfriend. I'm your host Jay, and we are
talking addictions today. We are talking with Pebbles.
(00:21):
Pebbles is incredible. I feel like when people are
dating someone that has substance abuse issues, they're
often judged. Me personally, I've dated
someone with substance abuse issues and I know how difficult
it is and I know how difficult it was for other people to
(00:43):
understand. And for this reason, I believe
this episode is so crucial for those that have loved ones that
struggle with addiction, those that struggle with addiction,
and those that lack the understanding of why someone
would love someone who is addicted to meth, for example.
Pebbles explains it really well.Her opinions, her experience.
(01:06):
It's just rare I find to come across someone who explains the
situation and explains what's really going on so clearly and
with so much compassion that makes you want to listen.
I feel this episode was recordedquite a while ago, but I've been
(01:26):
waiting to release it for a longtime.
I really loved this episode. I really loved the conversation
I had with Pebbles and I'm so excited for you guys to just
listen to it. You're going to have a lot of
questions for sure. I'm hoping to get on TikTok live
again with Pebbles pretty soon here.
Not sure when we will let you guys know when, but she's a
(01:47):
really, really cool resource I think for all of us.
And I think she could really help those that are struggling
to love someone who has some issues with substance abuse.
So as usual, please follow the show.
Follow us on TikTok at More thanan inmate's GF.
(02:08):
Follow us on Instagram at podcast under Score Prison GF.
If you do want to be on the show, we are currently taking
guest applications so you can fill out a form on our Instagram
the be a guest form and we will get back to you.
AJ will e-mail you and that's it.
(02:28):
Enjoy my interview with Pebbles talking about addictions.
Cannot wait for you guys to hearit.
Have a good one enjoy. Welcome, Pebbles.
Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to have you.
I really feel like what you're about to talk about is so
(02:49):
important because so many peoplego through it.
And not only that, you have personal experience when it
comes to drugs and addiction, right?
Yeah. So walk life, I guess.
Like you have to be in those shoes to understand it, more or
less, yeah. So you and your partner talk to
me about it. Well, how did you guys meet?
(03:09):
So I met him in 2008 on Myspace.Myspace.
Myspace. Myspace.
Yeah, when Myspace was still thesame.
And then we went to Facebook andthen eventually we went up in
person and, well, we ended up having sex in my car.
So that kind of filled the deal.This man's going to be forever
mine. Were you in the same town?
(03:32):
So he lived about 2 1/2 hours away.
He just got out of juvenile corrections.
Oh, nice. And he lived in a juvenile
halfway house at that point. And then eventually he moved
down closer to where I was like 30 minutes away.
And we connected and I was kind of like, hey, do.
You remember what his profile was like?
No, no, I honestly, I just remember it was like a skater
(03:54):
kid because I was an e-mail girlback in the day, right?
Yeah. And so he was like a skater boy,
long shaggy hair. And it was like him right there.
Oh, my gosh. To next.
Yeah. Message him.
Doesn't remember what the conversation was.
I remember just like talking to him.
And then he reminded me when we got back in contact.
He's like, do you remember just talking hours on the phone when
we were younger? I was like, I thought you'd say
(04:15):
that. Yeah, we even had phone sex when
we were younger. Haven't changed much, right?
That's exactly what I was thinking.
Foreshadowing. Yeah, Maybe.
Yeah. Yeah, a little bit, yeah.
So do you remember what it was like when you first met him in
person? It was so awkward because I
picked him up and his friend andI had to go to his chick's house
(04:37):
that he was staying with so he could get the rest of his shit.
And I was just like, Oh my God, like this is simply so awkward.
Like I don't fucking have to deal with some random drama,
right? Eventually I had to anyway, but
that's besides the point. And I think he was drunk because
he took a bottle of liquor with him and remind you like he was
still under the age of 18 at this point in time.
So I'm like where we get bottlesof alcohol and my mom's like,
(05:00):
yeah, he can stay the night. It's cool.
I was like, OK, cool. So.
Yeah, you brought him back home day one.
Really cool. Back then I was going to bring
him back home, but then he pussied out.
I was like, OK. And then did you start dating?
What happened? No, cuz here's the thing, he had
a girlfriend at that point in time and I really didn't care.
(05:20):
I was 16. I didn't care.
I mean I ended up with him, I married him.
So I still won at that point in time.
OK, so did you lose touch or were you guys friends?
We did lose touch after a while.I don't even know what happened
to him for a longest time. And then I moved two hours away
from where I was living and I went to cosmetology school.
And then I started partying. I started drinking.
(05:42):
And then I started smoking weed.And then when I went back home,
I got into meth, got my first felony.
My mom died. Yeah.
Oh, I'm. Sorry.
And then, yeah, it was hard. Went to prison, had a kid, then
got married and then I got divorced.
I was homeless because it was through domestic violence.
So this will keep COVID. So there was no place for me to
(06:02):
go. I didn't have a job, I had no
income. I was living at ADV shelter.
The DV shelter was only a nine month long program.
So I was living on my friend's couch.
And then eventually I got my ownplace.
I started dating this other dudethat I also knew from the
streets that I used to get high with.
And then that just didn't work out because him and I were just
really toxic. And I was like, I wonder what
(06:23):
happened to this guy? And so I looked him up onto like
the DOC website and lo and behold, there he was.
I'm like, Yep. OK, so you just all of a sudden
one day you're like, I wonder where this dude was, who I met
when I was a teenager, where he is.
And then you think I'm going to go look on the prison website to
see if he's in prison? That's your thought process.
(06:46):
Yeah, so here's the thing. I always thought about him a lot
throughout the years and I was like, I'm going to check
Facebook and I'd always find hisold profiles.
Nothing new showed up. I was like, where is this dude?
And I was like there has to be 1area, one place I.
Did and it's the prison website.Yeah, it was the prison website,
Yeah. Wow, I have to know, what was it
(07:07):
about him that kept him in your mind?
I don't know. I think because we have that
connection when we were younger and we would just like, talk for
hours and hours and hours, that connection that we had, you know
what I mean? Yeah.
We were just close and nothing was judgmental or everything was
just like an open book. And he was like my person back
(07:27):
then. We just were too young to
realize it. I feel like, And I don't know,
I'm really good with names and I'm really good with people that
make an impact on my life, whether it be bad or good.
And it was just something about him.
I was just like, I need to reachout to this guy.
And when I first reached out to him, he was like, quote UN
quote, dating this chick, which might make me sound like trash
(07:48):
again, but it's fine because he's never met her.
And plus she's like 50 and he just turned 32.
I was like, OK, you're really not dating her.
So we're getting married. Seriously.
I literally said that wasn't like the first week.
I was like, hey, we're getting married.
And what'd he say? He's like, yeah, OK, we'll see
about that. I was like, yeah, OK, we will.
(08:09):
We'll see about that. Spoiler alert, you got married.
Yeah, got. Married.
Not even like a full year later.So he was dating someone else
and you just came in and you were like, I'm your soul mate.
So yeah. Yeah, basically.
Amazing. Yeah, amazing.
So you started dating right awaybasically.
Yeah, I guess. I mean, we didn't necessarily be
(08:29):
like, hey, are you my boyfriend?Are you my girlfriend?
Like, hey, like I'm yours. This is what it is.
Your attention is mine now. I love it.
So direct this is. Me, yeah.
Like he has no option. I know where like I'm here,
yeah. How long after did you get
married? 11 months.
OK, that's not John. What was that like?
I had to jump through so many hoops to do it, but I dreamt
(08:51):
through so many hoops. Well, so not only was I an
inmate in the same prison system, but I also volunteered
at the prisons because they changed my life around.
And I go into the women's prisonor the men's prison and try to
get them help, really. And like, recovery feels like
try to, yeah, I would go in there and be like, hey, like
this is what I do. Like, this is my story.
(09:13):
I've changed my life around. Like if you need help, if you
need to get out, if you need recovery help, I can get you
plugged into services. Right.
So I had to stop doing all that,get off that list, which took
forever, and I had to get approved by the warden.
Because you were a felony. Well, not only that, I'm not an
approved visitor still. You're not.
(09:34):
No. You're his wife and you're not
approved. Yeah, I'm actually banned from
all of the facility prisons. Oh my gosh.
Which, yeah. And I'm still able to go on
occasionally. I used to work with partnerships
and I'm still in contact with them, and I still kind of do
that work inside the prisons. I called them last week because
they're doing this big change from JPG to GTL, which is fine.
(09:56):
Whatever. I hate it.
And I was like, through the Grapevine, IC Solutions was
going to be the visiting. I was like, you have to be an
approved visitor. So I called.
They're like, oh, hey, you're banned from all facilities.
I'm like, oh, hey, just let you know, I was just walking through
your facility two weeks after that report was made, so.
Oh my gosh. They're like, well, we really
don't like that. I'm like, well don't try to keep
(10:17):
me from my husband and there wouldn't be an issue.
Did you see him when you were there?
I tried but he was in a cell andhe didn't have his day room and
because he's in Mac I wasn't able to go into his tear but he
knew I was coming. I was like, FYI, I'm coming to
try to see you. And he told all his buddies he's
like, yeah, my wife's gonna comehere and bring up cookies.
(10:37):
And they didn't believe him. And I was like, I'm pissed
because they didn't bring me to your peer.
And he like showed him their messages.
They're like, she actually did come out.
He's like, yeah, my wife knows what?
He's around to get in. When you got married, did you
see him at that point? Yeah, yeah.
OK. We're actually to have a
ceremony and I was able to go inand we were able to hug and kiss
and take pictures. And then he was supposed to go
(11:00):
back to a cell and then we were supposed to have our through
glass visit. But the visiting person was
like, you guys could just have to like last 30 minutes to visit
in person. I was like, yeah, yeah, it was
really sweet. And then with your glass, which
kind of sucked. So was it the first time that
you'd met him since you were a teenager?
Yeah, yeah. And did he look different?
(11:21):
Been like, no, I mean, we had video visits, So what each other
looked like, yeah, OK, but he didn't look any different.
Got taller. And two wrinkles and more
tattoos. No, no, no wrinkles.
What? I guess you guys are young.
Still, yeah. That's crazy.
What was that like, seeing him in person?
It was bitter sweet. It was bitter sweet.
(11:42):
They had to cuff him. They had to cuff him because
he's a violent offender. He likes to beat up the cops,
which I'm fine with. I'm still a convict and I still
have that from her mortality. And so they first walked him out
and they're like, what are you doing?
You can't walk him out without cuff.
I'm like, do you like honestly think he's going to beat you
guys up the day he's supposed toget married?
(12:03):
Can we have some common sense? I understand he's a violence
repenter, but at the same point,like he's not going up the day
he's supposed to get married. Like, I'm pretty sure he's more
afraid of me than he's afraid ofyou, right?
Agreed 100%. Yeah I wish they would
understand that. So Nick's facility hates me.
They don't let us do anything. They block all access and I'm
like, do you realize how much pull I have with this man?
(12:24):
What are you doing? Like yesterday, yeah.
He's like, babe, I might go to the hole.
I have to do something. I was like, OK again.
But today I was like, what's happened?
He's like, you should be proud of me because I didn't beat this
dude's ass. I'm like, I'm not saying I'm not
proud of you. I'm just really confused because
this dude owes you money and you're like, what's going on?
He's like, do you want me to be?Exactly.
Preferably not, but I would prefer you to get this money
(12:46):
right. At the same time, do they have
people that are local? I'll go run up on their house.
Oh my gosh, I love it. I could see how you guys would
get a lot. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, wow. And that was the only time you
saw him and he was cuffed duringyour wedding.
So they did uncuff him Once I got into the visiting room, we
(13:09):
were able to do that. But when we got back behind
glass, they had to cuff me. And like, do you guys want to
cuff me too? Like try another position.
I even asked the guard. I was like, hey, can you guys
can reinstate my DOC number? And I'll just, like, live with
him. Right?
Next door is open. He'll teach you how to fish.
I'm like, that's pointless. I want to lose my husband.
And then I was behind the glass for two hours.
(13:31):
Yeah. Wow.
Yeah. And he had me message his
friend's girlfriend. He's like, hey, I kissed a girl
today. And it's been a minute.
Like, did you take her to the janitor's closet?
He's like, because I would have taken my chick with a janitor's
closet. Like I thought about it.
Oh my gosh, it's hilarious. Yeah.
So rewind just a little bit because we didn't really talk
(13:52):
about his charges or anything. When you looked him up on the
DOC, you obviously looked at hischarges.
Yeah. And yeah.
So his original charge was manufacturing, OK, Manufacturing
that. So that was his original charge.
He's already topped out on that.And then so he's already
completed his full sentence on that, on that charge.
So he doesn't have to do time onthat charge anymore.
So then what happened? But since he's been down, he's
(14:15):
caught in five new felonies. Wow.
So he has two assaults on officers, 2 introductions like
contraband drugs into the facility, and then he has an
assault battery. He like beat up his old Sally
back in 2020, took a fan blade to this dude face and kind of
like made him into the Joker. Oh my.
Gosh, Yeah, yeah. What's good reason he.
(14:36):
Told me the reason why and I really didn't care.
I was just like okay, just don'tget any more charges.
You have 15 years left. Just don't catch any charges.
He has 15 years now. Yeah, he has 15 years left.
He gets out in 2040. So you knew when you were
talking to him what his out datewas.
Yeah, I knew. And then he told me about the
recent charge, the assault and battery with his old cellie.
(14:58):
He showed me his paperwork on video visits and I was like,
babe, I really don't need to seeit.
I don't need these bloody handprints all over your cell
door. I get it.
Doesn't bother me. I know who I'm marrying.
I understand the type of man youare.
I get it. So you don't need to prove
anything to me. So you really didn't judge him
or anything from the get go? No, no.
(15:20):
When I was 19 I took my first felony for this guy that I've
known since I've been 8. I don't have the reason to be
judgmental towards 90% of the inmate population.
Right. And do you think that your
history going to prison yourselfimpacted the way you see things
going on inside with him and howhe could have caught charges in
there? I don't know, because I grew up
(15:41):
my dad, when I was capable of remembering things, he would
sell weed and he would tell me, we've moved from California to
Idaho, so you wouldn't get into drugs and the gangs and this,
that and the others. He's like, obviously that still
happened. He's like when you were just
born. We had to get out of California
or I was either going to end up in prison or somebody was going
to kill me. So I think it's in my bloodline
(16:02):
obviously is like the criminal part, you know what I mean?
So it's just like, I don't know,like when I was eight, I was
like, I'm going to get arrested.Kind of cool.
I guess. I knew my past in life when I
was really young. So I don't necessarily think it
changed a lot of perspective towards anything that anybody in
there does. How was it when you went to
(16:22):
prison for the first time? I made in my mind like, I have
to look like a bitch. I have to look like a bitch.
I have to look like I know what I'm doing because really, I'm a
sweet girl, you know what I mean?
Like I'm bubbly. Yeah, I'm sweet.
I'm really compassionate. I'm empathetic.
But I was like, I'm not going toget pushed around.
I'm not going to deal with that.I'm sorry.
Plus, I have the friends that I've known from the streets,
like I used to get highways there.
(16:43):
And so I was comfortable, but I also had my guard up at the same
time, right? So was it a horrible experience
or did you adjust? No, it wasn't.
I adjusted really quick. My dad supported me barely.
When I was in there. I got $40 a month, which kind of
sucks, But at the same time, I had a little hustle.
I know how to braid hair. I went to cosmetology school, so
I can do hair. I do people's makeup.
(17:04):
I also had my body jewelry. And so I would sell my body
jewelry for money. Yeah.
Yeah. I threaded people's eyebrows.
Oh, yeah, it was. Yeah.
Yeah. So I mean, I adjusted really
quick. I made friends, you know what I
mean? Like my old space partner.
She also is in the recovery field now.
So like, we're still close. She was like 4 hours, 5 hours
(17:25):
away from me. But we still talk constantly.
And so I've made really good relationships from the prison
system as well. But I also feel like Idaho's
different than other states. How so?
Well, I feel like Idaho's not asextremely violent in the women's
prison as you would say, like California or like, I don't
know, Detroit. So kind of mellow and laid back.
(17:47):
The prison yard I was on, they didn't have fences.
We didn't have necessarily like security.
We had CEO, but we didn't have fences.
We didn't have a security walking around the yard all the
time. Like still to this day, girls
walk off and like escape, which is a minor escape charge because
there is no fence. But yeah, yeah.
Nick and I always joke because I'm such a social person that I
(18:08):
feel like it'd be so fun. Get to hang out with my friends
every day. I don't have to work, I get
food, I get shelter, I don't have to worry about bills.
Listen, sometimes I'm like, I wish I could just go do a six
months and take a break from life, right?
I swear to God I'm like, let me just take a break dude.
You know what? I can't wait to tell him
tomorrow that I'm not completelycrazy and thinking that it
(18:31):
wouldn't be so bad. No, you're not.
You're really not. I would love that.
Yeah. So anyways, all of this kind of
started with him with his substance abuse issues, correct?
Yeah. And did you know about them?
I knew he smoked weed at that point in time when we were
younger. I knew he smoked weed when we
first got back in contact. He's like, I had an 8 ball to
open my pocket when we had stepsin your car.
(18:53):
I was like, I had no idea. Like I would have even known,
like, really? And I never saw meth a day of my
life right before. Like they're easing it.
Yeah. He's like, yeah.
I was like, OK, cool. He was already doing it when you
guys wow. Yeah, my husband has struggled
with substance abuse since season 4.
Four. Yeah, he was huffing gasoline
when he was four years old. He started smoking weed when he
(19:14):
was like, 7. You know what I mean?
Drinking. It's.
How can I explain? It's not to party.
It's just his way of life. It's coping.
Yeah, it's what he knows, and that's the only thing he knows.
And it's shitty and it sucks because his upbringing wasn't
the greatest. His mom gave him up.
His mom had nothing to do with him.
He's been in and out of institutions since he's been 11
(19:34):
years old. You know what I mean?
Which he's 32 now, so that's 21 years.
All he knows is getting high, getting high and getting numb.
And I get it. I understand it, and I hate it
for him. I hate that that's what he feels
like he has to do to feel OK. And do you think his violence is
(19:55):
from that too? I feel like his violence is,
well, one. He doesn't want to look like a
punk when I get it, you know, Prism mentality.
He doesn't want to have people walk over him because he stands
his own ground. Right.
But I also feel like it's more of a guard, you know, like he's
protecting himself. He's guarding himself.
(20:17):
He doesn't want not to get physically hurt, but just to be
hurt in general anymore. That's his way of doing it.
And honestly, where's he at withit?
Because you're on this journey and you're sober, correct?
So he knows you are. Yeah, he still uses, he still
uses to this day and he tells mehe does like there's days that
(20:37):
he'll message me like 3-4 times a day and normally will message
like 30 times a day. I'm like, what are you doing?
He's like I'm in the rabbit hole, which means he's using K2
and I'm like just pay attention to me.
Give me your attention. I don't care what you're doing,
just love me, OK? Right, yeah.
I don't know a lot about K2, butI've heard that if you don't
(20:59):
hear from him, that's a good sign that something's.
Going on, yeah, yeah. They'll be like, what are you
doing? Where are you at?
He's like I'm with Alice or I'm down the rabbit hole.
So has he considered getting sober or is it just not really
an option? So he gets sober when nothings
around and that's when everything is great.
When he's using, when he's high,like shit becomes not
(21:19):
necessarily toxic for us, but it's rocky, you know what I
mean? Because there's that distance
between US and I hate it. But I also know that he has his
own demons that he has to deal with and there's nothing I can
do because I'm not there with him.
I'm his wife, but he can't tell me things that he wants to tell
me because everything's monitored.
(21:42):
So he has to deal with it himself.
And it makes me feel useless. But at the same time I
understand. I completely understand where
you're coming from on that because something just recently
happened and it's like we can't communicate because it's
recorded. And even you can't trust the
administration with anything that you say on the phone.
(22:04):
So even sharing your feelings orsharing your anxieties or
whatever, you can't trust it. So no.
And then they can't trust anybody there.
So they're just left alone to try and deal.
And it's horrible. And it really does feel like you
said, it's completely helpless as a partner.
Yeah, like yesterday's like, babe, I'm doing my own demons.
(22:26):
I just want to help you. I just want to be able to help
you because the type of work I do, I work with those that are
struggling addiction. I mean, I work with those that
are dealing with mental health. And he has bipolar.
So on top of his addiction, he has bipolar and he's not
medicated for it because the medication either makes him
sleep all the time or he can't go to the bathroom properly,
(22:47):
right? So he's like, I'm not taking
their meds because the prisons only have certain types of
medications that they can give you at 90% of the time they give
everybody the same medication for no matter what the diagnosis
is. Yeah, so he's gonna laugh.
He won't take it. Wow.
Yeah. Yeah.
Poor thing. How do you deal?
I don't know how I deal, so how do you deal with it?
(23:07):
I have to take it one day at a time because I have to remember
I've been in that position and Iknow what it's like.
I have to remember that it's lonely in there.
You're surrounded by all these people, but you can't trust
nobody in there. Almost like you knew them from
the streets and you actually like know them, know them for
years on time, but you're by yourself most of the time and
it's hard. So I just have to remember where
(23:28):
he's at, what he's going through, And if I was in that
position, what would I do? Right.
So obviously the future is unknown.
So for me personally, and like Itold you, I've dated an addict
and it is so hard. You married an addict knowing
that this could be, and it sounds it's his life.
(23:48):
And it's his life and I hate it and it's his life.
And here's The thing is, we've talked about what our future is
going to be like when we get out.
I know and he knows that he's going to continue getting high.
We both know that. And I understand that and I
still accept him for that and I still love him no matter what.
And I still plan on holding him down regardless.
So he saw parole board in December and they passed him up
(24:09):
for two years. And if he doesn't get a write up
in two years, he can be pulled out.
But if he gets a write up, whichhe already has, he has to finish
the rest of his time, which is 15 years.
So. So my thought process is my son,
our son is going to be 19 by thetime he gets home.
If he brings in my house and ourchild isn't home, that's one
thing. But if he comes home within the
next two years and he brings in our home, he can't do that
(24:32):
because we have a small child, you know what I mean?
And I don't want him going out and getting high with God knows
who and overdosing in the car somewhere.
I'm not allowing that. But I'm not also enabling him.
I know the type of man he is. I know what he's about.
I know what he's going to do. How are we gonna do it in a
proper manner to where he's safe?
I know he's safe. I can take care of him.
(24:54):
I can Narcan him if I have to. Mm.
Hmm. Because you can't hurricane.
Yourself right, but at the same time I need to make sure my
child's safe because I'm I'm comfortable in my recovery.
You know I mean I'm not worried about me relapsing.
Already made it point blank and clear.
I can't get high off of meth anymore.
He's like, I went with that. I'm like, that's great because I
like my sleep. I like to sleep.
(25:17):
You know what I mean? Yes, I do.
But. Yeah, I'm like, that's not fun
no more. I don't like staying up for gays
on it. That's not what we're doing.
I like my sleep too much. I like food, so don't worry
about me getting hot mess. But we have to figure out a
proper way for him to do it. Unfortunately.
Do it where he's safe and where everybody else in the situation
(25:39):
is safe, that is. So interesting.
It sounds like I'm. Enabling him?
No, really. Not I just.
Know because he has been using substances or getting high since
he's been four years old. That's all he knows.
It's like you. Accept him for who he is
knowing. Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely that this is. Him and it that's part of the
(26:02):
package so you're like how do wedo this in a Safeway because you
are going to do this because this is a part of who you are I
feel like that's the ultimate love on top of that I.
Grew up in a household with an addict and alcoholic.
When my mom passed away, my dad told me she would take me to Cal
and bring, I don't know if it was meth or cocaine, but she'd
(26:22):
bring back home meth and cocaine.
And so I grew up in that environment.
So I'm used to it and unfortunately I'm comfortable in
it. And that's not to say it's a bad
thing, but it's not socially acceptable.
And I get that. I get that because addicts get a
bad reputation. Addicts get like, these are
junkies. All they're ever going to do
(26:42):
with their life is still or Rob or this, that and the other.
Not all of them are that way. Some of them have to live, and
this is the only way they know how to live.
Yeah. Honestly, I don't think I've
ever heard anyone speak of it like that because you're
absolutely right. There are people that are just
never going to not be in addicts.
It just is what they. I mean, he was four years old.
(27:03):
You're not going to change whom at all?
Yeah, it's. All they know, yeah, it's all
they know. I find you're so.
Realistic. This is the reality.
I love an addict. I've accepted that that I love
an addict, that he's my person. Yeah.
And we're going to mitigate the situation so that I can keep you
safe. I feel like you literally just
gave a perspective that so many people wouldn't even think of.
(27:26):
I mean like. I said my life has always
revolved around some type of addiction and not only have I
lived it, but my sister, she's still an active user.
I have friends that I'm not close with anymore because I've
got Sanus over and I've made that boundary and they're still
using it doesn't mean that I don't love them any less.
It's just I have a child, but I need to make him my a priority.
(27:47):
100% they. Understand that.
Yeah, no. That makes sense for sure.
Wow. I'm like, I love it.
It's so interesting to me. I've never even thought about
that. And I feel like so many people
try and fight out the addiction and like, oh, I hope when he
comes home he's gonna get sober and all this stuff.
But you're like, yeah, I'd love it if he got sober, but it
really might not happen. Yeah, I would.
(28:09):
Die and go to heaven, God forbid, but if he got sober,
we're not bad. Like I said, we're not bad.
When he gets high, things get rocky because I'm constantly
needing his attention because I borderline personality disorder.
I've been diagnosed with it since I've been 19 years old.
So I had that constant fear of abandonment, right?
And he gets high and goes ghost for hours.
(28:29):
I'm like, what are you? Are you OK?
I need to talk to you and I'll call down to the prison.
Like where's my husband? I kind of go streaming
overboard, but I've calmed down within the past couple of years
because I know his routine and his mannerisms by now.
But if he did get sober, that'd be great.
But in reality, it's not going to happen.
And at this point, when he goes ghost, how long do you wait till
(28:51):
you call the prison? About 24 hours.
OK, not. Too bad.
Yeah, 24 hours. And I do my research before I go
like crazy. I'll reach out to my friends
who's has men in the same prisonfacility.
Hey is. J Pay down.
Have you heard from your man? Has he called you today?
No, I haven't heard from him. Like, I think J Pay's broken.
Yeah, he's called me. He'll probably call you.
(29:13):
Last year, we were supposed to get married in March, but we got
married in April. And him and his bunky, he was
still a Max. He's over Maxim still.
And his bunky got into a fight. He ended up going to the
hospital. I knew something that night
because he was messaging me. He's like, I'm going to take a
nap or something happened. I was waiting for something to
come in the mail for him. And, and he was supposed to
message me back or something. I can't really remember, but I
(29:35):
felt it in my gut something was wrong, you know what I mean?
I was like, what's going on? Why I haven't heard from my
husband? Where is he?
And I didn't hear from him the next day.
And so I got a call from one of his homies that are in there
like, hey, he went to the hospital.
I was like, excuse you, what do you mean he went to the
hospital? They're like, we don't know what
happened. All we know is we saw him get
taken down like her. And he was like, OK, I called
down to the prison. They're like, we can't give you
(29:55):
any information. I was like, OK, so you're like,
we advise you to reach out to public records.
I didn't call public records. I called prison the next day and
they're like, yeah, he's in the Infirmary.
I was like, excuse you for what?They're like now you reach out
to public records. So I called down there and
they're like, how do you know he's in medical?
I was like, because the cops told me.
What do you mean? They're like, well, they weren't
supposed to tell you. I'm like, well, they did.
So what happened? Did he get stabbed?
(30:15):
What happened? They're like, no, he's fine.
He's probably, he'll be in bruised.
He'll be OK. I'm like, so when am I going to
hear from him? Because we're going to have an
issue like I'll go down to your office right now and start
swinging. You know what I mean?
And then how long till you? Spoke to him, he called me.
It took five days. It took five days.
From when I last. Spoke to him, he was able to
call me. He was like hey babe and I just
started balling. I knew something bad happened.
(30:38):
I didn't get the full detail. His homies would reach out to
me. One homie called me, another
homie had his sister reach out to me and tell me, hey, he went
to the hospital. I was like, OK, what else am I
supposed to do? I was like so torn and
everything part about me, I was just depressed.
Like instantly depressed. Like I had nothing to live for.
I was like, I need my husband. I can't continue.
(30:59):
I can't continue acting like I'mOK and going on with this life
without my husband. And unfortunately it's not
unfortunately because I love my child.
But I still had to put on that show.
I still had to act like everything was OK.
I still had to continue to do what I did.
I still had to continue to go towork and I still got our
tattoos. He called me.
He's like, what are you doing? I was like, I just got done
(31:20):
getting our matching tattoos. He's like, you still did that.
I was like, yeah. What do you mean?
What are you talking about? I told you I was going to not
not going to do it. They told me that you're alive
and I'm happy sort of bawling. I was like, I'm so happy you're
OK. I knew you were alive.
It sucks not hearing from you. I can't stand it.
Yeah, I'm still getting our matching tattoos.
(31:42):
I needed tattoo therapy. I needed that pain, OK, because
I was his eye. And the only thing I could deal
with that right now is getting into my hands.
Was that the longest you'd gone without talking about?
No, no. That was just the first time.
It was like the most of your time.
He's gone through the whole multiple other time for like,
drinking, making hooch, fighting, you know, typical.
(32:04):
But he always found a way to call me within the first two
days, OK, or at least reach out to me some way.
And then he would find somebody's tablet and I would
just add them on JP and start messaging in that way.
Right, Right, right. Yeah, so you've shared a lot
about him, but I want to know more about his qualities.
What makes him so special to you?
(32:25):
This man knows me inside and out.
He asked me something on our video visit on Sunday.
And he's like, I need this done.And you know, I was like, no,
he's like, I see that smile. Like he knows me better than I
know myself. You know, I mean, and it's crazy
when I first reached out to him,he's like, how many kids do I
have? I'm like, hey, I just got one
kid. He's like, OK, cool, whatever.
I was like, I'm not going to make you his dad.
(32:46):
That's not my decision. That's yours.
I'm not going to force you to besomebody else's kids dad.
I'm not going to do that. Well, I was doing a video visit
with him one day and I asked my son.
I was like, hey, who is this? He's like, that's dad.
I was like. And so he stepped up to that
role. Oh wow.
So your son knows him as his dad?
Yeah, Yeah. Yeah, and he's, he stepped into
(33:07):
that role really good. I tell him he's a better parent
than I am. And what makes him I?
I feel like he's just. More level headed because I am a
short temper, which makes me sound like a horrible mom, and
I'm really not. But I have a short temper and my
patients run thin. Yeah, but husband's like, babe,
he's sick. Yeah, he has to.
You have to remember he's like, you need to be calm.
You need to do this. Tell him to do this, and he'll
(33:28):
talk to him. He's like, hey, bud, what are
you doing? You know what I mean?
He's like, you have to do good in school.
You have to listen to your mom. You have to clean your room and
my kids. Like, yes, that.
You're right. I'm sorry.
I love you, but he's a really good father figure.
You know what I mean? It's so funny.
It's so funny the way he is. He gives me these little quote
UN quote goals or challenges andit's.
(33:48):
Hilarious. He's like, I want you to stop
vaping for like 30 days to see if you can do it.
I'm like, OK, but, and I'm just that person.
I'm like, OK, I can prove you wrong.
He's like, I bet you can't do it.
Three days. I was like, OK, watch me do it
anyway, right? Yeah.
Yeah, Nick does the same thing, but he doesn't give me
challenges. But he'll be like, like most
recently it's water because likeI'll complain of like a headache
or my stomach hurts and he's like, did you drink any water
(34:09):
today? And I'm like, no.
And he's like, what is wrong with you woman?
Drink water that he's on me about it every day We like to
do. Like most every other prison
couple does. Yeah.
They like to do things with eachother, like watch movies or you
know what I mean? Yeah.
And we made one when he's still in Max.
We were working out together every day.
(34:30):
Because when he's in Max, I can set up the same day visit.
Great. I loved it.
It was amazing. Cool.
So we'd work out for 15 minutes together.
Yeah. And I hated it, but it was fun.
I know. Yeah, I know.
Exactly what you mean. And he makes me do stuff like
burpees and I'm like why do I have to do these prison
workouts? Can't I just use weights?
It's way easier. I know he's like.
(34:51):
I need you to do it was like 5 minutes of wall sit or not wall
sits, but 5 minutes of step UPS.Yeah, 10 minutes of squats and
like, brutal. Are you kidding me?
My knees are too old for this. Yeah, I know exactly what.
You're talking about. Yeah, I love at the beginning of
the episode when you talk about all these horrible things that
he's done and how he's gotten inso much trouble and he's an
addict. And then now, just like how
(35:11):
lovable he is at the same time, you know, Yeah, when I.
Married him and when we got to hold each other and kiss, I was
like, this is home. Like you're home.
He's like, what do you mean you have your own home?
I'm like, you don't understand? Like you are my home.
I want to be wherever you are because I'm comfortable, I'm
safe. I know that this is where I
belong. Like you are my home.
(35:33):
I relate to that so much. Nick lives in Nebraska.
I don't live there and I don't want to live in Nebraska, like
ever. If I don't have to, I won't, but
I'm going to have to at some point.
But every time I fly in, I feel home.
Never in a million years what I thought about whenever I'm
flying in, I'm like, I feel at home even.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I live 10 minutes.
Away from the prison here. Lucky, yeah.
(35:55):
No, I can't even go. On the prison yard, I can't see
my husband. I've been denied.
I took it to the chief of prisons.
They still denied me. And I'm just like, when can I
visit my husband? What is that gonna?
Look like that's bullshit. I don't know.
I get reapplied to this April. They're like, you can reapply in
a year. I'm like, dude, you're a long
time and like, I had to jump through the hoops to get
married, right? Yeah, it's.
Crazy. So 7 times you've been denied?
(36:17):
Is that what you said? Yeah, I've been denied.
Seven times. Oh my God, yeah.
I feel like my situation is so unique that they just don't even
know to do right. Right, because you were an
inmate, since you're volunteering, you know the
facility. He's a violent offender.
Yeah, that's a whole lot. That would be a whole.
Yeah, that's. I even told him I.
(36:39):
Said, listen, you guys can stripsearch me like you guys want to
do a cavity search. You can do that too.
I'll do whatever stipulations you guys want me to do just so I
can see my husband. Yeah.
And they didn't go for it still even.
Behind glass, right? Yeah, not even behind glass.
Wow. I'm sorry, I mean, I'll.
Eventually get through it, I'm. Banned too, I don't know,
(37:01):
indefinitely. They put indefinitely and
they're supposed to put a lettersaying when I can apply again or
whatever. Yeah, but they didn't put a
date. They blocked me on the phone,
they blocked me on the GTL messaging.
I can't video visit, I can't in person visit.
It's just a joke. So we've talked a lot about
loving an addict and your history with it and everything,
and I really like your perspectives.
(37:22):
Is there anything else that you want to add?
Advice for people who are datingpeople who are struggling with
addiction in inside anything that you've learned or even from
your work experience, people cope.
Differently So for me, I have that with experience.
I've been around in my entire life like I work with these
people. I understand what it's like, but
(37:42):
I feel like from somebody that doesn't have out of experience,
you need to understand that it'snot as easy as you think it is.
It's not as easy as you think itis.
And I can't reiterate that enough.
Addiction is a forever battle. It's not, oh, you can stop using
whoever you want to stop using. No, it reconstructs our brain.
(38:02):
Our brain is constantly chasing that same euphoria, that same
high, and we can't get that whenwe're sober.
We can't get that same feeling where we're sober and it's not
even just like a high. It's sometimes how we cope.
Some people use for pain, like physical pain and it's like,
dude, it's so hard to understandaddiction if you haven't lived
(38:24):
through it, if you haven't had somebody that you loved deal
with it and seeing how it affects them.
So being able to not only be compassionate and empathetic
with what the person's going through, but be understanding
and not necessarily enabling, but try to talk like, Hey,
what's going on? How can I help you?
What, what is one thing that you're struggling with that I
(38:46):
can help you in the here and now, whether it be talking to
somebody, figuring out ways for you to be able to feel
comfortable with what you're doing safely.
Like I said, not every attic's going to get clean and sober,
and that's the unfortunate truthabout it.
There's a three to 8% chance everybody that uses is going to
(39:07):
stay clean. Yeah, I heard.
And that's that's hard. Yeah, it's hard, it sucks, and
that's just what our society is nowadays.
But being able to understand andbeing able to love that person,
no matter how hard and how ugly and how dark life get, and
showing that you're never going to give up on them.
Like give them hope that life isgoing to get better if they get
(39:30):
sober. My husband's done everything to
piss me off. And he hasn't cheated on me.
He hasn't cheated on me because I would break his neck.
But he's done everything that hepossibly could to put me through
the ringer. And most women in my position
would be like, I can't do this. I throw my hands.
If I throw in the towel, I'm done.
(39:51):
But being that person, being that positive support, being
that person that never gives up on somebody when they're
struggling and when they're at their lowest, you have to think
they're in this facility. I mean, they don't have
sunlight. They don't have this vitamin D
that we're supposed to get therein a close facility with.
It's Gray. Like these facilities are Gray.
When you walk in it, there's a distinct smell.
(40:12):
Every prison smells the same andit's crazy.
Every single prison smells the same as the gel smell the same.
When I married my husband last year, I was like flashbacks, you
know what I mean? Flashback's gone.
I can't stand the smell. But they're in this confined
area. They're told when they can and
can't shower. They're told when they can and
can't talk to the people they love.
(40:34):
They're told when they can and can't eat.
Their lives are literally controlled by somebody else.
It's a desperate feeling. And some women, they're men who
are on an open tier where they have day room all the time.
Some men are like mine and yours, where they're confined
for. They only get out for an hour or
two a day, and regardless of thesituation, they're still under
(40:59):
control of somebody else. They still have count time, they
still have child time, they still can only shower at certain
points of time. Some might have a little bit
more freedom compared to others,however, it's depressing that
makes you feel less than what you are.
It's demoralizing. And if you put yourself in their
shoes, if you change the perspective around to be like,
OK, if you're locked in your room 24 hours a day, like you're
(41:20):
not going to be happy, you're going to be miserable.
You know what I mean? And it's depressing.
People kill themselves in there.Because it.
Sucks people literally kill themselves in prison because how
shitty their lifestyle is in there.
It's hard. It's not.
Easy, they overdose. It's hard.
It's a hard life. And just to have a little bit of
(41:42):
understanding, a little bit of compassion and empathy towards
these people that are locked up is such a huge game changer for
them. And they're like, OK, this
person really is for me. This person is on my side and
gives me a little bit of hope, gives me a little bit of
something to look forward to. So being able to understand that
and being able to understand whythey use and why they do what
(42:03):
they do in there because they have nothing better to do.
They had nothing better to do but get high.
And 90% of the time they're not getting high on meth.
They're getting high on K2 or fentanyl or Suboxone or heroin,
Anything that makes them sleep so they don't have to deal with
day-to-day life in there becauseit is so depressing.
(42:23):
They don't want to have to remember the shit that they did.
They don't want to have to remember that this is what their
life is right now and for however long it is.
So being a little bit compassionate, being a little
bit more understanding in that situation towards them and
realizing this isn't easy, It sucks and this is what it is
right now. But showing that person that you
love them regardless of what it is and standing by them and
(42:44):
understanding their addiction, where it's coming from and what
they're having to go through. I'm not saying an aid one them
don't. I'm not saying go out, get the
drugs and send them into them. Like obviously somebody else is
doing that. Don't get yourself in a
situation that can get you arrested and put in that same
position. But understand that this is how
they cope. This is how they mentally check
(43:05):
out. Means when people go out to
clubs and bars, just have fun orwhatever, people get up black
out drunk. What's the difference of them
drinking in there to us drinkingout here to not aware of pain?
So just a little perspective. Yeah, I feel.
Like what you just said, just not like I'm sitting here
listening to you. And I have a little bit of
experience with people with addiction.
Obviously, I have experience with the prison system, and I
(43:28):
feel like you painted a really vivid and true and brutally
honest example and portrayal of what it's like.
So I really appreciate that. I'm sitting here like, wow, I
really feel it, you know? Yeah, yeah.
Absolutely. Like I tell, I tell women on
Facebook all the time, hey, my husband's getting out.
What do I need to do? I'm like, hey, this is what you
need to do and this is what you shouldn't do.
When they get released, you haveto understand that they're
(43:50):
coming from a controlled environment.
Everything. And they're slow.
Everything's routine. Everything's by schedule.
Yeah. So when they come out to the
real world, it's fast-paced, It goes so fast and they get
overwhelmed, they get over stimulated and they don't know
what to do but go and get high because everything's so
uncontrollable for them and theyare so overwhelmed that the only
way they know how to cope is to get high.
(44:11):
It's so hard. Like when I got out of prison, I
only did two years. When I got out of prison, I went
to Walmart. I had a panic attack and I was
only there for 5 minutes. Yeah, I was only there for 5
minutes. I had a panic attack.
I was like, Dad, I've got to go.I can't be there.
Too many people, too much going on.
If still to this day. I'm such an isolated person
because of prison. I don't like open areas.
I don't like people. When I go out to eat, my back
(44:34):
has to be against the wall. You know what I mean?
Yeah. So it's just you have to
remember, interesting. The environment they're coming
out of, to the environment that they're coming into is such a
180 complete black and white difference that they're not used
to this lifestyle anymore. They're not used to everyday
life. Yeah, it makes sense and.
I feel like they also don't realize that they're going to be
(44:55):
like that because, like, Nick's first thing he wants to do,
Yeah, he wants to go to Walmart.And he's such an introvert, and
he can't wait to go to Walmart. Now.
I'm like, there's no way I'm bringing you to Walmart if you
ever make it out. No way.
Yeah. Yeah.
My husband, like, I'll be fine I'm like, baby, trust me.
You're going to need to take a few months to reintegrate.
It's not even. You have to give them grace.
(45:16):
Yeah, you have to give them grace.
And you have to be understandingbecause they're going to trip
out. They're not going to be OK.
They're going to have breakdowns.
They might blow up and explode. You never know what they're
going to do when they get out because the way that they're
programmed in there compared to out here is such a difference
that they're not going to understand how to handle
themselves in such a fast-paced society, you know?
(45:40):
So just giving somebody grace and understanding that they're
not used to this life, that they're not used to this life,
and just being calm and patient,supportive of them is so
important that it not can only save their life, but help them
grow into be something productive, you know?
Yeah, I feel like. He's so blessed to have you.
(46:03):
This is all I'm feeling. I have such.
A heart for anybody that's incarcerated.
I don't even not explain it. From being there to
understanding what it's like. Yeah, I have.
Such action for the prison system is not necessarily being
reformed, but reintegrating and helping those get on their feet
because like I said, I was there.
(46:24):
I got out of prison, I got pregnant.
I ended up homeless because the halfway house that I went to
didn't allow children. So I had to go to a homeless
shelter the entire time I was pregnant.
And then I got into my apartmentand I moved a couple hours away
to be with my ex-husband. And then I mean, a relapsing
domestic violence happened. I ended up homeless again.
So it's not easy, you know what I mean?
(46:44):
It's not easy, but it's possible.
It's really possible. You just have to be patient and
like understanding and know thatit takes time.
It takes a lot of time, and it'snot going to be as lovey dovey
as fast as most people think when their partner gets out of
prison, that it's going to be rainbows and flowers and
(47:05):
sunshine. Yeah, Sparkles.
No. It's not, it's really not way to
burst bubbles. Bubbles.
Well, I mean, it's the truth. It's not going to be that easy.
And it sucks. It sucks, but going through the
motions, you're going to have towalk through the trenches of
hell. You know what I mean?
It's not going to be easy. It's not going to be easy, and I
(47:26):
can't say that enough. You're going to have to be
patient. You have to be patient.
If you can't deal with that, then I don't want to sound like
it's this bitch. If you can't understand that, if
you can't be OK with going through all the motions of the
reintegrating into society, everything, the headaches, the
outburst, everything that it takes, then you might want to
(47:47):
reevaluate what you're doing. Because it's not going to be
perfect. It's not going to be perfect,
and it just sucks and it's hard and it's not beautiful.
It's a whirlwind. It's a whirlwind and it's hard.
But in the end, it's worth it. You know what I mean?
Like it really is. If you can get through that, you
can get through anything, right?Going through not only having
(48:08):
someone incarcerated, but then surviving when they actually
come out, it really is a unique experience.
I think it really is speaking. From my own personal experience
of being released, you know whatI mean?
Like, I know what it's like for me, and I can only imagine what
it's like for somebody that's done, like my husband, 11 years
and has to see more to go. Yeah.
So I can only put my perspectiveinto, like, think about it like
(48:29):
10 times more. When he gets out, I'm going to
have to buy everything for him prior to it, Yeah.
And lock him into my house for like a week.
Yeah. And.
He's gonna wanna get. High.
Yeah. He's gonna wanna get high.
That's how it is. I understand that.
I get that. Yeah.
But at least he's gonna be getting high where I know he's
safe. Exactly.
When you think you have another 15 years, I told him.
(48:51):
I told him when we first startedtalking, I'm like, I know how
much time you have left. I get it.
I know that you've had multiple different relationships in the
past where they've left you. You've been cheated on this,
that and the other. But I can tell you this.
I understand what you're going through right now.
And I haven't done this much time, but I can tell you that I
know how hard it is. And I've been through.
I've been on the other side where I was in a relationship
(49:12):
with somebody and they cheated on me and it crushed my heart.
Yeah. And.
I'm not going to say that there hasn't been times where I'm
like, I don't know if I can do this.
You know what I mean? I don't know if I can put up
with this for 15 more years, butI've made that commitment and I
know that this man is my home. He's the other half of me.
He's my twin flame, he's my bestfriend that I will do anything
(49:36):
for this man. I will go through everything.
And I told him, I'm like, I'm going to hold you down
regardless and I'm not going to step away from that.
I'm not person that like to stick their words.
My words means everything to me.If I can't stand by my word, I
can't stand by anything. Exactly.
You're only as. Good as you and that's just how
I. Am I still have that similar
mentality? So I told him, like, if you have
(49:57):
15 years, just don't get any more charges.
Don't overdose and get any more charges.
That's all I'm asking. That's all I'm asking.
Don't catch any more charges, don't catch any more time, don't
overdose. And he agrees.
He's like, OK. I was like, no, I need you to
promise me that you're not goingto do it.
He's like, I promise. I'm like, OK, cool.
So he hasn't done any of that sofar.
And I'm still here and I'm not going anywhere.
You know what I mean? Yeah.
(50:17):
There's been close calls. Yeah.
Nick has a life sentence. Yeah.
And he lost his appeal, like oneof his appeals in April.
And it was hard. And then we lost again.
His lawyer filed his appeal a minute too late, so it got time
barred. And so like years and years of
work down the drain was stupid, stupid, stupid lawyer.
(50:39):
And anyways, he was like, can you give me 12 more years and
then I can try for a commutationbasically at the 25 year mark.
And yeah, a lot of my friends are like, you're you married,
someone with a life sentence. Are you crazy?
And I'm like, yeah, but is thereanother way?
Can you show me another Rd. doesn't exist?
No. So, you know, I just don't see
(51:00):
there's another path. So if there was another path, if
I thought I could find another man like him, like this is not
possible. So we're just.
No, we're just. I tried.
These guys out here in their trash.
Yeah, same. Like put them in the dumpster?
Worded long. Exactly.
I just can't imagine. I remember the day he lost his
appeal. And it was like, in that moment,
(51:22):
I was like, I'm never leaving this man's side.
Like, I cannot. Yeah, even.
And yeah, we'll just make a lifewith what it is.
So guess what? I'll end up in Nebraska.
Make the best. Of it exactly.
Exactly. We're just gonna have to make
the. Best of it, and it's gonna be a
struggle, but it's worth it in the end, you know what I mean?
Yeah, we choose our. Heart right?
Like other people have other problems, we just have this one
(51:44):
and we can do it. We can survive this, absolutely.
Pebbles. It has been a time, so thank you
so much. I feel like you have given so
much information and so much perspective for people to think
about and so unique. So thank you so much because I
really think it'll be really interesting for a lot of people
(52:05):
to hear your perspective for for.
We need to find more perspectiveon what they're going through
than what we're going through atthis point in time like.
Absolutely. You know what I mean?
Like, yeah, people. Assume these guys deserve what
they're getting. Or like in your case, look at
his history. Do you blame the guy?
Yeah, no. Absolutely not.
Like, yeah, why are we going to point blame at somebody that
(52:25):
struggles like 90% of our nation?
You know what I mean? Exactly what's?
The point. Yeah.
Well, anyways, thank you so much.
I appreciate it. It was a blast, really.
I had a good. Time.
Yes, I enjoyed it all the best. I hope that you get access to
your loved one and get to see him in person again soon.
I know that. Feeling.
(52:47):
Take care. Thanks again.
Yeah, you too. We'll talk to you later.
Yeah, Bye.
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