Who is Vayda from Season 1, Episode 3? Let's Find Out!

In this episode, we meet Stephanie, also known as Vayda. She opens up about her journey—from working as a prison guard to becoming a prison wife—and the stigma that comes with it. We talk about how she met her husband inside the prison system, the misconceptions people have, and what it’s really like to stand by someone incarcerated.

Stephanie didn't always have an easy life and she has chosen to share her story in her new book "From Ashes to Love: Learning to Trust Again". You won't believe the strength and resilience this woman has developed after learning her story and reading this book.

Stephanie shares the story of her husband, how just 36 hours after returning from war in Iraq, an altercation led to him eventually being charged with felony murder and given a life sentence despite so little involvement. The tragedy is made even heavier knowing the victim was also a fellow veteran. She walks us through the complicated emotions surrounding his case and how it shaped his life ever since.

We also dive into the Georgia Parole Board, where Stephanie highlights a broken system—men and women serving life with parole sentences being denied release for decades, often with spotless records, because of phrases like “nature of the crime” or “not enough time served.” With some people sitting 30+ years without a single misconduct report, she’s now advocating for real parole opportunities for those who’ve proven they won’t return to prison.

This is an eye-opening conversation about love, resilience, and the fight for second chances.

Find us on⁠⁠⁠⁠ TikTok, ⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠ or ⁠⁠⁠⁠Facebook⁠⁠⁠⁠

Follow Jae's husband Nicholas Ely on Facebook "⁠⁠More Than An Inmate⁠⁠" or the Facebook group "⁠⁠End Felony Murder Rule in Nebraska⁠⁠"

Check out ⁠⁠⁠BestSelf Publications⁠⁠⁠ to purchase books by incarcerated authors and help in supporting their rehabilitation.

Our ⁠⁠⁠Website⁠

Stephanie's book

Stephanie's facebook:

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
He will stand in front of you today and tell you I've seen
more murders in my 22 years thanI've seen over there.
More. Welcome to more than an inmate's
girlfriend. I'm your host, Jay.
And what a week has it been wild.

(00:23):
Such a crazy week. For those of you that don't
know, I guess the most exciting news is Nick and I were featured
in an article for the Flat WaterFree Press regarding the lawsuit
that Nick has filed. He filed a civil suit a couple
months ago against, I think eight members of the Nebraska
department, Corrections regarding the retaliation and

(00:47):
the lack of transparency with their disciplinary action and
their decision to remove me or suspend my status indefinitely.
We just haven't gotten any answers from them ever.
Like literally, if you ask them for any policy, if you ask them
for any guidance, if you ask them for any conversation, there
was just none. And I've told you guys about it

(01:09):
over the months since I've started the podcast.
But for those of you that maybe thought I was exaggerating or
didn't believe the situation at hand, thought there was more to
the story, there really isn't. Like, that's the gist of it.
There really is not any reason, so we filed the lawsuit.
So you can go ahead and look at the lawsuit if you want.

(01:31):
There's also a lot of details about our relationship and what
happened play by play. So pretty cool article.
I'm super grateful for Sarah Gensler for publishing it for
the Water Free Press. She is like the watchdog,
government watchdog and I believe the Flat Water Free

(01:51):
Press is like a nonprofit, like independent type newspaper and
we're so grateful for that exposure and just like being
able to share our story with theworld.
It is interesting and we have gotten a lot of people
supporting us. We've gotten some people not
supporting us or criticizing. And I think the interesting

(02:11):
part, which I've noticed a lot in general, like even on TikTok
and stuff, is that people just make their judgments without
reading the article, for one, but without understanding
someone's intent. And I'll give an example.
I was watching a TikTok where the woman's brother had just
been convicted of murder, and she was talking about how there

(02:32):
was some constitutional errors, like the victim's family member
was the head of the justice system of that county.
So right there, there's a bias and it should have been moved to
a different court. And then you see in the
comments, everybody's commentingabout all these things, about
how he's guilty, he stalked his girlfriend, he did all this
crazy stuff, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

(02:53):
But that's not the issue. Regardless of all that
information, that's not the issue at hand.
And I commented on it and I was like, you're right.
Like that is not correct. That should be biased.
That should be considered and heshould have moved venues like
that is arguable. That is regardless of guilt or
not, there are laws that need tobe followed and that's why laws
exist, so we can follow them. In our case.

(03:14):
People are like, oh, whatever they want to say about me, judge
my character, judge his character, judge his guilt,
judge his crime. Like they're all over the place.
Yet the issue at hand is the lack of policy and procedure
that they're following. So that's the issue.
Doesn't matter how we met, doesn't matter what he was
involved in. What I also found really

(03:36):
interesting is I read a few comments about like it's taking
away from like second chances ofother people and stuff like
that. Which I find so fascinating
because my husband is sentenced to 1st degree premeditated pre
plotted murder when the man has no weapon, has no intent to hurt

(03:58):
anybody because he wasn't even carrying a weapon.
There was no plan for him in hishead to potentially even hurt
someone. Right?
You can't predict how other people reacted and the other
people in the group reacted a certain way.
And I could go on and on about the situation and the lack of
information that people have. It's just funny to me how people
are like these types of articlesblock people from like having

(04:21):
second chances at their crimes. Yo, Nick shouldn't even be
incarcerated right now. Like, are you kidding me?
Right now, out of everybody in every case other than those that
are completely wrongfully convicted, felony murder is the
most ridiculous thing in the world.
And you want to say that my husband doesn't deserve that
airtime? Get out of here.
Like, I don't I can't even entertain it.

(04:42):
I can't even entertain it. It's crazy.
And I'm so pro second chances for sure.
Like, absolutely, but the reality is he's not
proportionally charged for what he did, and it's logically
speaking, he is not proportionally charged.
So it makes me laugh about some of those comments.
But anyways, that happened. That was the whole thing.

(05:04):
The next thing that I wanted to mention very quickly is AJ is
taking a little bit of a step back from the podcast for some
personal reasons. She's dealing with some stuff.
So we have asked Pebbles, who was a guest on our show in the
first season, and she's just been really active.
We've gotten really close with her and I just think she's
hilarious. She's so well connected in the

(05:25):
community. She's got really great insights.
If anyone were to join, I reallywanted her to.
So we asked her if she would come on and help us because it's
getting to be a lot for all of us to handle and she was super
excited about it. So you guys will see Pebbles and
hear more about Pebbles in the future.
So if you know her. Give her a.

(05:45):
Warm welcome and congratulationsto joining the More than inmates
Girlfriend family. So this week's episode, let's
talk about it. Veda, she was the 1st guest I
think that I had other than Melissa on, but she was the
first person that I interviewed and she has come on the show
today to actually talk about whoshe really is and what her
husband's real case is and what the situation around their

(06:08):
relationship is. And like a whole lot of drama.
Her husband also falls under thefelony murder.
But if I could say my husband's is bad, I would say hers is
worse. Like, the situation revolving
around them is heartbreaking to me.
And I want you guys to hear it and give your opinions because
it's sad. It's just so sad.
So she's a huge advocate, and she wants to finally say who she

(06:31):
is. We had a great conversation.
She is a wonderful human being. She's a good friend.
She is someone that I would trust with anything.
And I'm so happy that she wantedto come back on and talk again
because I would have this woman on every week if I could.
But yeah, we'll get to learn whoVeda is.
Remember, this has been an active week.

(06:51):
We've gotten a lot more new people listening to the show
this week. And I just want to welcome you
all. I hope you enjoy it.
We got some interesting episodescoming up.
Please, if you are listening to the show, please hit the follow
button. If you care and want to, if you
enjoy the show, whether that's on Spotify or iheart or Apple

(07:11):
podcast, whatever you listen to,please hit that follow button so
that we can know that you care and that you like it.
And it helps us kind of track what's going on.
And there's for some reason a lot of people that listen that
don't follow. So the more people that follow,
then the more we can do with theshow.
So please do that. Other than that, I hope you are

(07:33):
enjoying this season so far and I will leave it at that.
Enjoy Vedas reveal. Welcome back quote UN quote
Veda. Hi, Jay.
How are you? I'm good.
How are you? Good.
So Veda, today you are going to expose who you really are and

(07:56):
your real name and your real circumstances.
Do you want to talk a little bitabout why you decided to finally
come out and share with the world who you really are?
Well, whenever I was first on the show, I didn't come out
because at that time my husband was going back to court for
motion reduction of sentence in which I had filed on his behalf.

(08:18):
And in the beginning of his and our relationship, I did not let
people know because of assumptions and judgmental.
Yeah, for sure. And I think once we go into that
and talk about it a little bit more, people will understand it
a lot more because you are one of the few people that I know

(08:38):
that are open about how they actually met their loved one.
When I think it is a lot more common than we think.
A lot of people just don't talk about it or aren't honest about
how they really met their loved one because of the stigma around
it. So do you want to start with
What's your real name? My name is Stephanie.
I am the wife of Mario Navarrette.

(09:04):
Let's talk about how you guys actually met.
What is the story? It's a good one.
OK, some years ago I was workingfor a private prison.
I started off as an officer and then I had the chance to move
into an admin position in which as anybody that knows anything

(09:24):
about prisons and there's alwaysorderlies that work up there.
There was actually 2 orderlies, one of which I won't mention his
name but he's in ATC now and theother one was my husband.
Sorry, what's ATC? What's ATC?
It's a transitional. Center, it's the next step
before they go home. As long as they go and abide by

(09:46):
all the rules and regulations set forth by Georgia Department
of Corrections, they go home. Oh, OK, cool.
Continue. Sorry.
Anyway, I moved into the admin position because it was a Monday
through Friday position and I was just the type.
I went in. I'd done my job as an officer
and then as an admin, and I started learning.

(10:09):
Of the two. Orderlies that was up there and
everybody up there was really fond to this one that had been
up there for the last three to four years and which is my
husband now and a lot of people.That's what I was talking about,
the beginning, about the judgmental and the assumptions.
Everybody assumes, oh, y'all gottogether while he was working in

(10:31):
prison. No, we did not.
Let me go ahead and clear that up.
No, we did not. As I was saying, everybody out
there was fond of him and he wasup there every day, Monday
through Friday, and everybody really liked him.
And I had never even spoke to him.
And I listened to everybody elsetalking about him, talking about
his case. And his case intrigued me.

(10:53):
It intrigued me to the point that.
I. Done my own research and went to
find out about it and because I'm not one to take anybody's
word, I have to have the facts in front of me.
So as I'm learning of his case, I.
See. How he has gone through so much
and you can't tell it, you couldnot tell it.

(11:13):
He was convicted of murder, felony murder, and was given a
life sentence. And he was not the one that
committed the murder. Yeah, he was there.
He was present party to a crime In the state of Georgia.
If you're party to a crime, thenyou're just as guilty as the one
that actually done the actual crime.

(11:34):
Yeah, I think that's how we connected really initially was
because my husband has the same felony murder as your husband
and neither of them actually committed the crime and yet were
sentenced the same as the personwho did commit it when they had
really no prior knowledge of what was going to happen.
So. Exactly.

(11:56):
Yeah, for those that don't know exactly what felony murder is,
because I'm learning more and more that most people don't know
what it is. We just call it out thinking
that people know what it is. And really, because it's
shocking when you learn the details that someone who did not
have a weapon, was not participating in the crime can
still be charged the same as theperson who committed the crime

(12:17):
when the initial crime was not to murder to begin with, right?
So exactly. My husband's he's been convicted
of murder. He has charges of concealing the
death of another, also of havinga weapon during the Commission

(12:37):
of a crime and 1. He never held the weapon.
Two, he never. Touched the body, yeah.
And three, he didn't kill anybody.
Exactly. But as I was saying when I met
him. I researched, found about his
sentence, found out about what he was convicted of, and I was
just like, wow, you know how many of these are out there?

(13:00):
Because at that time I didn't know.
I didn't know how many would be out there.
And so I went to take it upon myself.
And yes, did I break oath, my oath as far as working for the
system, yes, I did. Because you're taught you're not
supposed to have no kind of personal dealings or nothing
with any of the quote UN quote inmates.

(13:23):
And I went to getting phone numbers of attorneys and I went
to giving them to him. So did I break my oath in that
regard? Yes, I did.
I'll be the first to admit I didit, but.
So it's very clear when you start that you're not allowed to
have any kind of interaction other than what's necessary.

(13:44):
Is that how it works? Do they warn?
You to the point of we have a Christmas party and you got
cakes and you got goodies and all this stuff and they, the two
orderlies were having to set up for our Christmas party, but yet
they could not have a piece of the cake.
They could not partake in any ofit whatsoever.

(14:05):
Yeah. And I'm like, really?
Why I said it's not? Fair to have that in front of
their face and them not be able to.
Have any of it crazy? It's just.
Ridiculous stuff like that. Because my thing is if they can
set up for it if. They can have it in front of
their face. Why can't they have some of it?
Yeah. But.
That was one of the things I just noticed and I was like.

(14:28):
This is so wrong. I remember Nick told me a story
of one time was like, eating crackers or something.
And Nick's like, oh, you're not going to give me one?
And it was like an older lady that did her job.
She was very good to them, but she was very strict.
And they respected her a lot. And he was just joking.
And she was like, oh, here. And she gave him a cracker and
she got fired. Yeah.

(14:49):
And he's like, I felt so bad because like, I didn't know that
that would get her fired. And she was such a nice lady.
That was not his intention at all.
And he didn't actually think shewould give him anything.
But just because of that interaction, that's how thick
the line is drawn. Yeah, and I mean, just like me
giving him numbers, I knew that I was risking my job, but at the

(15:12):
same time, you know, he's insidethere.
He doesn't have access to all that and from.
What I had gathered from others,his family was not involved.
They couldn't come visit becausethey're in Texas.
And so I started giving him phone numbers.
Well, one day, and I don't have no concrete proof so I'm not

(15:35):
going to mention any names, but one day a girl sees me that
works there, She works in the office.
She sees me give him a piece of paper, and the piece of paper
actually, I still. Remember the attorney's name
and. Number that was on it and I was
like oh crap. But I didn't say anything.

(15:56):
He didn't say anything. The next week the warden of
security comes to me saying thatsomebody has called in and made
allegations that I'm having an inappropriate relationship with
an inmate and he asked me was ittrue?
I told him no, it was not true. And Long story short, they ended

(16:17):
up telling me that I could resign or they could do a long
drawn out investigation. And he went on to tell me what
the details of the investigationwould be.
And one of them was transferringhim to a different facility and
involving my family. First of all, I don't play about

(16:38):
nobody messing with my family. Nobody.
And second of all, he don't deserve that.
There's nothing there. And I knew he was comfortable.
He was at home, he's in prison. He can't just go somewhere else
and be as comfortable and feel like he's at home.
And how would you feel if somebody just come and moved you
out of your house? Yeah, and you had no say over

(17:00):
it, and especially because it was innocent and there was
nothing. And so I decided, hey, I can.
Get a different job. So I quit and I left.
I did not see or hear from him. No contact whatsoever, just
brushed. It to the side.
Two or three months later I seena friend of mine.
That is still an officer out there at the camp where he was

(17:23):
out and she told me about the other got moved to ATC.
I said well that's good, he's onhis way home and then she said
well and never it. That's what they called him now
or never it. He got transferred.
I said he got transferred where?She said I don't know.
I said well I'm fixing to find out because I said there was no
sense in transferring him whenever there was nothing to

(17:46):
it. And then I told her what I had
done about giving the numbers and the names of lawyers and how
I had explained to him I can't call them because I work for the
system. But here I couldn't at least do
this much. And I said I'm going to find out
where he's at. So I went on the website, found
out where he was at because I knew how to do that from working

(18:08):
in the system. And also I contacted his family
because I knew his family was out in Texas and not too many
people has the last name, never it.
So I went to contacting people on.
Facebook. That's how and I started sending
him letters and that's how he and I got to talking was 3

(18:30):
letters. When I first write him I
explained to him I was sorry andby shooting a neighbor giving
the numbers and we just started writing back and forth but then
that's when I really started advocating for him.
By that time we had built a friendship and it went from a
friendship to best friends to wewere together and now he's my

(18:51):
husband. Wow, In your experience, how
common was it that people that were working there ended up in
relationships with guys that areincarcerated?
And the prison, did it happen? Yeah, it did.
But it wasn't common, OK? It really was not common there.
And I'm assuming he didn't blameyou, but just to clarify, he
didn't blame you for his transfer?

(19:13):
Oh, no, not at all, he said. He knew from that point,
whenever that note was seen past, he had been in long enough
and at that time he he knew thathe would probably get
transferred. He said I just knew it, but he
and I did not even speak but maybe a time or two after that
because it wasn't like we spoke on a regular basis other than

(19:35):
good morning or something along that lines.
When the accusation got made andthe anonymous phone call was put
into the security of Warden, he was actually moved from the
front. Before I left, he was taking off
his detail. And in hindsight, is there
anything that you wish you wouldhave done differently?

(19:57):
Yes, I wish I had resigned priorto helping him with giving him
the phone numbers and stuff so that way he would still be
there. Do I regret resigning from my
job? No, I do not, because it wasn't
a place for me. With all the unjustice I was
learning because I was an officer, you don't learn that

(20:20):
stuff. But going into admin you learn
all the sentences and the unjustthat's going on.
The wrongfully convicted people,I over sentence.
You learn that kind of stuff. And as an officer you don't see
that. You don't get to see their
charges, their sentence, anything like that.

(20:41):
You don't know unless they tell you.
Right, that makes sense. How has the stigma of this
affect you? The stigma, first of all, the
stigma was surrounding being with someone in prison is
horrendous anyway, you know that.
Yeah, I think any prison wife goes through that.

(21:01):
People assume you're crazy that I've even had people assume that
I've committed a crime before. I have never done no drugs, I've
never committed a crime, I've never done anything.
But people are automatically assume that.
But Jay, as you know, yours has got a life sentence.
Mine's got a life sentence. It's even more challenging and

(21:22):
there's so many remarks and so much stigma being somebody that
worked in the prison and especially a lot of people find
out, they asked, well, how did y'all get together?
Were y'all together before he went in?
And then when I say, well, I worked at the prison, they
automatically start judging and making assumptions that I got
with him while I was at the prison that I worked at.

(21:43):
And I'm like, no, we did not. And then that's when I have to
go into the whole spiel of telling them how, what, when,
where. Really it's none of nobody's
business. I mean, I could.
Care less what people think, what people say, but.
I don't want them looking at himlike that because he's already
with a life sentence for a murder he didn't commit.

(22:05):
And then people are going to make that assumption about him
that, oh, he was trying to get with somebody that was working
at the prison and he didn't. I mean, it was nothing like
that. But.
You know, just being with somebody that's got a lot of
sentence, you hear all kinds of things.
He's never getting out. He's playing you, he's seeing

(22:27):
other women. And I've even had people come up
and telling me, well, while he'sin prison, you need to get you
somebody that can be there with you.
Oh yeah, me too. You've had it, too.
Yeah. And people just in this day and
time do not believe and being faithful, do not believe in
standing beside somebody. And my thing is if I can't stand

(22:51):
beside him while he's in there. Whether it be?
One year, 10 years or 100 years.Then I don't deserve him when he
gets out. Yeah, and I feel like it's so
weird to me because it's like ifyou're committed to someone and
you love them, like I can't evenpicture having someone else next
to me. I can't even picture trying.
It would just gross me out. I don't want anybody but my

(23:13):
husband. Does that mean if your husband
is away for a significant amountof time or you guys did long
distance for a while that it would mean that you can sleep?
Around with someone else. It just boggles my mind.
I look at it and just like, say my husband was still in the
military. Yeah.
And he was deployed. Yeah, it's no different.
Yes, the time could be longer, could be shorter.

(23:36):
Yeah, I'm not God. Nobody else is God.
They don't know whenever he's going to get out.
Only God knows that. Yeah, but I mean, people are
just, like I said, judgmental and assuming.
Like I have people who just assume, oh, you're not by
yourself. And I look at them, first of
all, I don't care what you believe.
Second of all, I know there's nobody next to me during the

(23:57):
day, at night, no, no time. There's nobody that holds a
candle to my husband. There's nobody that can take his
place. There's nobody like you said,
that I want next to me. But if I can't have him, I don't
want nobody. Exactly.
I have to deal with the whole prison way thing and you're
pretty open about it on social media.
I don't know how open you are about it in your private life,

(24:18):
but I've been internally struggling recently with how
open I am about it in my privatelife.
And I don't know how much you are, but you kind of have it
double because of the whole how you guys met.
And I feel like I have a certainstigma because which it would be
the same as yours, the met whileincarcerated and the like.

(24:39):
For me personally though, you met him on right a prisoner.
So I have to deal with those stigmas.
But I always felt like even the prison wives themselves kind of
judge women that met their husbands through the prison.
And they do if they find out youmet him while he was
incarcerated. Well, I hear that's not a real
relationship. That's not a real marriage.

(25:01):
And first of all, being with somebody in prison, if you are
doing what you're supposed to do, being loyal, faithful,
committed, standing by that person through and through, then
that is the real estate marriagerelationship you can possibly
have. It's so much more real than
being with somebody that you canbe with physically because you

(25:24):
don't have that physical touch you don't have where you can sit
down and next to them and talk to them or watch a movie with
them because they're in there and I even hear, well, you must
be desperate. Oh yeah, I hate that one.
So you've heard that one, too? Yeah.
And you know, no, I'm not desperate.

(25:44):
It just happened the way it happened the day before he and I
got together officially. I didn't even dream of being
with somebody that was incarcerated.
Even when him and I became friends, I didn't even think
about we were going to be together, Sam.
We was just going right back andforth and I was going to
advocate for him and see about getting him out so he could go

(26:07):
home to his family and find him somebody.
That was the whole thing. And then feelings started
developing and then we were together.
But would I necessarily pick somebody in prison?
No. This whole fad that's going on
about being with somebody in prison.
They don't know what they're doing.
They don't know what they're thinking.

(26:28):
They may think it's all cool andit's all this and it's all that
in the beginning, but what aboutwhen the real feelings go to
hitting? What about when the loneliness
hits? What about when you can't just
pick up the phone? And what about whenever you
can't just lay there beside themwhen you've had a bad day and
you're upset? Yeah, They don't think about all
that stuff. No.

(26:48):
And when they go to the hole andthey lose phone privileges and
like there's so many things, I would agree with you.
I would never recommend this relationship.
I think that it's important thatwe destigmatize them and have
the community, and it's important that we fill ourselves
and our lives with other people that understand us.
But I would never say to someone, hey, you should go and

(27:10):
write a person and meet someone,no.
I even tell my husband this is the craziest thing I've ever
done, I said. And these people that are just
getting into this, they don't know what they're getting into.
I had some idea whenever I got into it because I had worked in
the system and I knew a life sentence is a life sentence.

(27:30):
That means there's no out date. He does have life with parole,
but that doesn't guarantee him parole.
And I know you know about this. Whenever you've had so much go
on and you want to tell him all about it and you get that 15
minute phone call and when you're sitting there and you're
right in the dead middle of telling them you got 2 minutes

(27:51):
left, I'm like, oh. I wonder from your experience,
why do you think it is that people that have met their loved
ones while they were working at a prison are stigmatized more
than others? Because they're judged and I
know there is some that do have inappropriate relationships with
them while they're inside because that is going against

(28:14):
your house. But for the ones that get with
them later on after they've quitthe prison, left the prison.
Like in my case, everybody automatically assumes I got with
him while I was working at the prison and they're just just
mental. It's like people don't want to
look at their own problems, theywant to look at all of ours.
Exactly. And let's just face it, what

(28:36):
would we find if we went lookingin their life?
Yeah, exactly. Do you think that a lot of, I'm
going to say women because we'remostly dealing with men that are
incarcerated, but I'm sure it happens the other way around.
Do you think that a lot of thosetimes these relationships aren't
real, whether it's like from oneside or the other, that they
aren't honest and they aren't sincere relationships in your

(28:59):
experience? Unfortunately, I do feel that
not all, but the majority on oneside.
Or the other are. Being taken advantage of, if
it's on the staff side, it's allabout the chase, the excitement
from the side of an inmate. Yeah, they're using them and
taking advantage of them to get what they want because.

(29:21):
A lot of. Times whenever you hear these
relationships the staff member is bringing stuff in for them.
And either way, whichever side it's own is wrong.
My thing is with women, know what you're getting into before
you get into it, before you commit to it. 2 Don't get in
there playing their games with them because they're already
inside 4 walls 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

(29:44):
They don't need to think you're out here playing them.
That's not fair because they arein there with four walls and
nothing to do but time to think.And they don't need to sit there
and think about and wonder and worry about if the person
they're with is out here being faithful and loyal to them and
vice versa. Women don't need to be out here

(30:05):
thinking that they have somebodythat's going to get out and come
home to them and be faithful to them.
And then the person inside is just using them until they get
out and they just go do whateverwith whoever they want.
I think both sides need to really think about it before
they get into it. And they both need to be fully
committed. And if they can't leave each

(30:27):
other alone, don't play with people's lives.
I know that your story specifically was really
innocent, you were just trying to help this person.
Do you find that when you were an officer, were there any
moments where you thought of someone as more than a friend or
anything like that? Is it something that is hard to
avoid or is it just these women are looking for it?

(30:49):
To me it was not hard to avoid. I was a woman inside a man's
prison. So did I have them trying?
Of course. But to me, there was no
temptation there because I was there to do my job and to earn
my paycheck and just like with any other job, to go do my job
and go home. That's what I was there for.

(31:10):
I didn't treat it any different than any other kind of job.
I just went there to do my job and then go home.
So there was no temptation for me.
And I think the ones that go in there and they are tempted by
that, that's the ones that the free world automatically assumes
about people like myself and like UJ that were desperate.

(31:32):
And if you're there to do your job, then you're not going to be
tempted. You're not going to worry about
what others are saying to you while you're in there.
When I was there to do my job, they knew where I stood.
They knew not to cross those lines.
They knew I was there to do my job.
And I used to tell them when I'dgo into a unit with them, I'd be
like, I'm here to do my job. I'm not here to disrupt your

(31:55):
house. We can make this easier or we
can make this hard. You respect me, I respect you.
And that was it. Yeah, and I do find from when I
used to have video visits with Nick, which feels like forever
ago, I would see sometimes thesewomen Cos and oftentimes they
were very pretty girls. They weren't like horrendous
looking or anything. They were decent looking girls,

(32:17):
but you could tell they meant business.
They were not like flirty or whatever.
They were like we do our job. So I feel like you could tell
there was a line. So it always surprises me of
when I hear about how often these types of relationships
develop. But then I have to think about
in a normal workplace, it's something like 60% or 70% of

(32:39):
affairs happen at work because you're with the person so often.
So I imagine even just naturally, if you're hanging
around the same group of people,it might just.
Happen. Yeah.
And in that case, a woman working in a man's prison, they
don't need to be left in one area.
They need to be constantly movedaround.
They should never be left in onearea because like you said, if

(33:02):
they're in there with the same ones every day, just like all
the admin people have become very well acquainted with both
of the orderlies up there, you know, and that's going to happen
if the same ones there. Three or four years.
You're going to learn about eachother's lives.
Exactly. So I don't think the officers
should be in the same unit everyday, not even every week.

(33:26):
Yeah, they should have constantly rotated.
Moved. Yeah, that makes sense.
Last question, just because I have you here as someone who
worked in a prison and not a lotof people want to talk about it,
but what was the culture like inyour experience?
I know that we can't make a judgement of every facility
based on your experience, but out of curiosity, why do you

(33:50):
think that some of the staff areso horrible to loved ones or the
guys? Is it a cultured development
there like US against them? Well, so you're taught to go in
there and stand firm with no kind of personal interactions,
no kind of personal feelings, not even really a smile.
And a lot of them, people that get in them positions, forget

(34:14):
the incarcerated individuals is still a human being.
And they get in there and they think they're better than them.
They do because they're a staff member, they're an officer, This
person is locked up, this personis incarcerated.
Oftentimes, they forget that these people are still human
beings. The $1,000,000 question that

(34:37):
everyone has probably been dyingfor me to ask is because of your
kind of tricky history with him,where are you guys at right now?
Do you have access? To Jay, that's a loaded question
and it really infuriates me because others that are within
power should know that people make false allegations all the

(34:58):
time and it should not disrupt their lives professionally or
personally unless proven to be true.
And at this time, I'm not going to go too deep into this, but
because of the accusations and assumptions, I'm currently
denied visitation and have been told at his current facility
that it's indefinite. And I'll say this much, we're

(35:18):
currently waiting to see what the outcome of his parole
hearing is. And I have filed an appeal for
his motion for reduction of sentence.
We're waiting to see what the outcome of those are before we
proceed with other measures because they were false
allegations. And I'm not going to just allow
false allegations to make it where I can't see my husband

(35:42):
indefinitely. So when's the last time you've
seen him? The last time I saw him was when
he was back in the county where he went for the reduction of
sentence court here and I went to the the county jail there and
I went and saw him. Sorry, I went and saw him, but
it was through ATV monitor. But the day in the courtroom,

(36:06):
then I got to see him then. You saw him in person then?
I did. I did.
How was that? I wanted to jump over there and
go out and hug him and kiss him.I will say that assistant DA,
she was really nice and she cometo me and she said is there
anything you want me to tell him?
And I told her no, that I was going to leave there and go

(36:27):
visit with him. But.
How sad is that to be excited for a court hearing just so you
could even see him, you know? It's so many emotions all
together. You know, it's excitement.
I'm sitting here smiling right now.
But at the same time, it's sad because I couldn't touch him.
I couldn't talk to him and just sit there and hold his hand and

(36:50):
talk to him. But I mean, we're waiting to see
the outcome of his parole hearing and of this appeal.
And I'm a fighter. I'm a soldier.
I'm going to stand beside him whether it's one year or 100
years, and every day I'm gonna put my best foot forward and I'm
gonna fight so I have no more breath in me.

(37:13):
I think if anyone after this goes and sees your social media,
they can see just how much of A fighter you really are.
I loved seeing everything that you were doing.
I've gotten worse since then, yeah.
We've really stepped it up. I think we both have grown a lot
in this. Which brings me to the next
topic because I feel like this whole journey for me personally,
since I've known Nick has reallypushed me out of my comfort zone

(37:38):
to grow in ways that I needed togrow to get to the next level or
do more. Like this podcast or the
publication company I made or whatever.
So many things that I feel like I would never have been exposed
to if it wasn't for me knowing Nick and getting to know him and
getting to know advocacy and criminal justice system and just

(37:58):
crazy. Stuff.
For you, you wrote a book, so congratulations on that.
I have read it. Can you speak a little bit about
why you decided to write a book and then what it's about?
I remember back whenever I was in my 20s because of things I
had gone through since I was a child.
Wanting to write a book. But I never put the pen to paper

(38:21):
and it was just a dream. But you know, a lot of us, we do
not follow through on our dreams.
Yes. Well, throughout this with my
husband, you know how he and I got together things that I had
gone through since I was a child.
I just decided one day I said, you know what, I'm fixing to
start writing my book. I didn't think I was going to

(38:41):
get it all right. I had it right within like a
couple months, and I didn't think it was going to come
together that quick. And then I also did not plan on
publishing. It was just something for me.
I just wanted to put it in book form, have it for me.
I didn't want to publish it because I didn't want to upset
anybody that was mentioned in it.

(39:04):
I didn't want assumptions, judgments.
I just didn't care what other people thought.
But at the same time, it was just for me, it was like a
healing thing for me. It was to release everything
that us as prison wives, we oftentimes keep inside because
we don't have them sit down conversations with our husbands
because we can't be with them physically.

(39:27):
So we keep a lot of stuff inside.
So that was just my way of getting everything out and that
I had gone through and then telling about how he and I got
together. And so I sit down and write it.
And I asked a friend of mine, hewas just an associate then, but
he has become a really good friend about how to get it into

(39:49):
book form because I wanted to beable to get it and keep it for
the rest of my life. And just to be able to say, I
done that and he got it and he was going to do that.
And he said, Stephanie, I want to publish this because I had
reached out to him because I knew he was a publisher.
And he said, I want to publish this.

(40:10):
And I thought about it and I waslike, sure, go ahead.
And that's where you're coming out.
And my book is called Ashes to Love.
It's about where you can come from ashes, from being abused
and every way possible from right molestation, being beat
physically and you can still find love and you can still make

(40:32):
something beautiful. I love it because after I knew
you as such a strong person before reading your book and
like you said, I've watched you for a long time now and
everything that you've done and you're just this like powerhouse
of a human being. No FS given you will do what you
need to do for the people that you love.

(40:53):
You were so strong and then to see where you came from and read
the book and learn about your story and all of the things that
you have gone through that a normal human being shouldn't go
through one of them. And here you are going through
all of these crazy traumatic experiences, 1 after the other
just beaten into you. And then to see you now today as

(41:17):
so strong and powerful, really you are able to do things that I
think most people aren't able todo at all.
So it's amazing to see just after reading the book and then
to see who you are today. It's incredible.
It really. Is well, Jay.
I decided, hey, I've got 2 choices here.
I can either become a statistic where a lot of people that go

(41:40):
through things that I've gone through become addicted to
drugs. They start having multiple
sexual relationships, yes. Or I could let it make me a
better person, make me into a fighter, somebody that didn't
give up. And that's what I decided to do.

(42:03):
I said I'm not going to be a statistic.
I've never done drugs. I don't sleep around.
I've had my serious relationships.
And then I looked at my husband and everything he's gone through
and he's still such a positive, happy going person.
And I said, you know what, what I'm going to take what I've been

(42:24):
through, and I'm going to let itbe my fuel.
And he is my inspiration to fight for him, to fight for all
the ones that are being over sentenced, wrongfully convicted,
just so much injustice done to him.
And I'm gonna use that as my fuel and let it make me a better

(42:44):
person. And some people might say I'm
not a better person because I don't give no F.
And I don't care what people think.
And I'm not going to sit down and I'm not going to shut up.
I'm going to keep going. Whether I hit a dating wall, I'm
going to turn to the right or left and go that way.
I'm not going to let anything oranybody stop me when it comes to

(43:07):
fighting for my husband or fighting for the others.
Was it difficult being that vulnerable on paper?
It was at first. I'm not going to say it wasn't
and I'm not going to say I didn't have to take a break here
and there. Just like right now, I'm in the
process of writing my second book and my books from here on

(43:29):
out are going to come off of my first one.
So you're not going to be able to read them and not read my
first one. And I have written like 4
chapters of the second book and I've, you know, a couple of
months break. One, because it's going very in
depth, whereas the first book I didn't really go in depth them

(43:49):
the subjects. Yeah.
And two, because I do have my plateful with advocating for my
husband and for others, but moreso for my husband right now
because my husband does have a parole hearing coming up in
December. Yeah.
So I am really going heavy on my.
So now that we know a little bitabout who you are and where
you're at, let's talk about yourhusband's case because it's very

(44:11):
important and I think people need to know about his case
specifically because it really saddens me about his situation.
Let's talk about what happened. Well, I'm going to tell a long
story real short. But they can go on my Facebook
Stephanie never read and it is pinned at the top is a petition

(44:33):
and they can read the whole story.
But my husband, he was 24 years old when the crime took place.
He had been the past 9 to 12 months over in Iraq in the 2003
invasion of Iraq have been over there fighting with for the
guys. The for the guys that they went
out that night as they came backto the states, they went out for

(44:56):
their little guys night out, went to strip club, the bar, you
know what have you. The victim actually became
really intoxicated and got them all throughout.
Of the strip. Club and the other guys were
upset and they all started fighting.
To make a Long story short and the one that actually done the

(45:17):
stabbing pulled off onto the side the road, got out and
stabbed the one that had got them throughout.
My husband was there along with two others.
The other two took plea deals. One of them got 20 years to
serve 20 years and the other onegot five years.
On the paper. They're both free men.

(45:38):
But my husband did not take a plea deal because he could not
say what the District Attorney want him to say.
So he did not take the plea deal.
And come on, he was 24 years old.
Yeah. He didn't have no knowledge of
the legal system, so he didn't take a plea deal and took it to
trial and he was found guilty of.
Murder and it clearly. States in the transcripts, It's

(46:01):
not just his word, it's not justmy word, it's in transcripts
that he did not commit the murder.
He was there. He didn't help cover the body.
Actually a couple of months after the crime occurred, the
guys had went back and disposed of the body.
The one that got 20 years, he actually touched the body.

(46:22):
He actually set the body on fire, but he got 20 years
because he took a plea deal. Whereas my husband never touched
the body, never touched the knife.
He was just there and didn't report it.
He's got life just like the one that committed the murder.
He was charged with the possession of the knife.
He was charged with concealing the death.

(46:43):
Yeah, he was charged with everything.
Did the actual guy that committed the murder.
Yeah, and that's what I think isso crucial here.
You touched on points so clearlythat it's not a question to the
state like a lot of people say, like, oh, he's wrongfully
convicted or he was innocent or he.
Didn't do it, but like it's actually in the transcripts.

(47:05):
It is very well known, agreed upon statement of facts he did
not commit. A murder.
He did not have a weapon, he didnot touch or have any part of
the situation. It was a group of friends and he
was doing what he thought he hadto do.
Under no circumstances does anyone think that he committed
the ACT or participated in it, really.

(47:26):
Yeah. And then just like with my
husband's, people say, well, he should have told.
He should have this, he should have that.
First of all, you don't know what you would do unless you're
put into that situation 100%. My husband had just come back
from fighting war. Beside these guys having their
back, they were taught to have each others back.

(47:46):
When I say that to people they like, well, the victim, he
should have had his back. And yes, my husband, now, his
statement in court, when we wentfor the motion reduction of
sentence, he made the statement and it's listed on my petition
and in articles I've had written.
My husband's statement was that if he could go back to that day,

(48:08):
he would die right alongside of Davis, which was the victim's
name. He would fight defending him.
He would die defending him. What saddens me about the whole
thing is this group of men, whatit should have been, and maybe
it's just the times. Was it 2003?
It was, yeah. So I don't know if it was at

(48:28):
that time period of what people believed or whatnot, but what
should have been seen as a tragic incident that occurred as
a result of post traumatic stress from being at war was
instead seen as a cruel murder. These people went to war
together. They were brothers.
They probably had a deeper bond than any of us could even

(48:49):
imagine if we weren't there. And this should have been seen
as just a horrible, horrible incident that was triggered from
the stress of being at war and not a cruel crime that was
vicious and whatnot. I'm sure that these guys blame
themselves and have penalized themselves more than any court
system could have done. Exactly.

(49:10):
And like you mentioned the PTSD when they came back, this was
like 36 hours after they came back that this incident
occurred. And unfortunately, Davis was
killed that night. But.
It was 36 hours back, so these guys still had war in their
mind. They were struggling.
It's in. Their bodies and he was in

(49:30):
county for three years and then when he first went into the
prison system, they have to go through like a diagnostics.
The therapist or counselor told him you have the worst case of
PTSD I've ever seen. Come on.
This has been 22 years ago that he was told this.
Now he will stand in front of you today and tell you I've seen

(49:54):
more murders in my 22 years thanI've seen over there.
More wow. So imagine what he goes through
and then what I have to go through because at any moment
when he calls, when I was going to the county and seeing his
mood fluctuates within seconds because he has severe PTSD.

(50:14):
And that is one of the things I've already started going to
the Veteran Affairs. I've started contacting them,
have a meeting with them becausewhen he does come home, my
husband, he's very positive and he says I'm just want to come
home and I'm at work, come get me two or three jobs.
But I have to stop him sometimesand tell him, no, you're not

(50:35):
what you're going to come home and do because I'm holding it
down for us now. I'm taking care of house.
I'm making sure he eats. What you're going to come home
and do is you're going to get the help that you need.
Because I know first of all, if he comes home and tries to work,
it's only going to make his mental health worse.
And he needs to get that mental health taken care of and saying

(50:57):
about before and make sure he's.Good.
Before he goes out into the world, because after being
incarcerated 22 years, he doesn't know what it's like out
here. And even though yes, he makes
friends easily, yes, but all that stuff from war, 22 years of
prison is in his mind. He's just got it.

(51:19):
Pushed. Back and I want to make sure
before that all comes to surfacethat he's getting the help he
needs for his health, for his mental health, for him, because
too often people come out of prison and they ended up
committing suicide or going backto prison because they can't
handle. It.
And I'm not going to allow that to happen to my husband.

(51:41):
I'm going to make sure he's good.
It literally horrifies me whenever I hear his story that
that's how we treated these guys.
It literally horrifies me because the knowledge that we
have now. On post traumatic stress.
If it would have been applied 20years ago, I think it would have
been a very different outcome, you know, So it's just, it's so,

(52:04):
so, so sad to me. And I'm not saying it's OK no
matter what you've gone through to take a life.
I'm not saying that whatsoever. No.
Even with the guy that actually committed murder, he had just
come back. From a war zone.
And if you look up about the 2003 invasion of Iraq, it was
really bad. Yeah.
It was a really bad time and we don't know what them guys

(52:27):
actually went through mentally. You know, they was just over
there having to kill people. So that night, I can only
imagine what happened in the guy's mind that actually
committed them. And instead of throwing him into
a prison cell, why didn't we gethim help?
Exactly. All of them.
This is so tragic. This should be a tragedy where

(52:48):
they should be able to mourn theperson that was killed.
The other thing thing that I think that you touched on that
really just stuck with me as youwere speaking about it, is his
comment about he's seen more traumatic incidences while he
was incarcerated versus while hewas at war.
That is a very poignant statement that is very telling

(53:12):
of what these guys are exposed to.
And then they're expected to come out of prison and be able
to work and be able to do everything and be able to stay
off the streets and whatever. I feel like there's this huge
gap of knowledge of what we're putting people through and what
the systems truly like, the trauma that's being pressed on

(53:34):
them. Sometimes Nick can't talk to me
about some of the stuff that he's seen because obviously
everything's recorded. But some of his side statements
that he's made, I can't even imagine what this man has been
through and what he's seen. He's been through multiple
riots. He spent multiple years in the
hole. There is so much trauma all
enveloped inside of him. And I'm sure your husband has

(53:55):
been through similar if not worse.
And then he can, as someone withexperience can say.
War was less than what I've experienced here.
I don't know what statistics arethere in Nebraska, but here in
Georgia, just slash last year there was almost 300 killed in
our prison. Wow.
And I'm not talking about natural causes.

(54:16):
I'm not talking about done. I'm talking about actual
murders. And that's how our Georgia
prisons are. There's a group on Facebook that
if you join it, everything gets exposed inside the group.
Some things I don't necessarily agree with, but I mean, the girl
that runs the page is admin. She is one of my friends and

(54:38):
that's what she feels as though it needs to be done, is
everything needs to be exposed and OK.
It's called Georgia Prison Exposed on Facebook, and you can
see all of it. You can see the murders and the
drugs and all the stuff that's going on in our Georgia prisons.
They'll even show what they're getting fed.

(54:59):
And I honestly wouldn't feed it to my dog what they're getting
fed. Your journey through advocacy, I
feel like it grows exponentiallyevery year.
Where are you at right now with everything?
What are you doing? What have you learned?
Let's talk about this advocacy journey a little bit more.
My advocacy journey is a wide range.
At first it was all about advocating for my husband.

(55:22):
It was nothing but going hard for him every day, every month,
every week, whatever I just got.Harder and harder going.
For him and I started having others reach out to me, want me
to join with them and help advocate.
And then I started having peoplefrom inside reaching out to me
telling me how they commended mefor going hard for my husband

(55:46):
and so and I started learning oftheir cases.
So it's just grown. I just done a rally July 14th.
It started out to rally for my husband's parole, but it
actually turned into a rally regarding all lifers that were
under the seven-year and 14 yearlaw here in Georgia.

(56:07):
Whereas when they were convictedat that time, I don't know how
familiar you are with the Georgia laws, but at the time,
like in my husband's case, he was seen at center of the 14
year law, which meant after 14 years he was eligible for
parole. But the parole board on the
seven-year, 14 year lifers, theykeep setting them off, giving

(56:29):
them the same reason, not enoughtime or because of the crime.
First of all, the crimes never going to change.
It's never going to change. I don't care if you keep them in
there 100 years, it's going to still be the same.
The crime will never change. Second of all, they were
sentenced during, like in my husband's case, 14 years,
meaning if he had done all his classes, he had done everything

(56:52):
that was asked of him, he was not getting in trouble.
He should have gotten parole after 14 years.
But the parole board keeps setting them off.
I have several people that I am advocating for.
Actually, I have close to 100 that I myself am personally
advocate for right, which includes right in the parole
board, emailing the parole boardbecause they were all sentenced

(57:15):
within the seven and 14 year oldlaws.
For an example, I have a Christopher Lucas that has been
incarcerated 33 years. He's now 80 years old, confined
to a wheelchair. He was sentenced under the
seven-year law. He has had no disciplinary
record in 33 years. He's been set off by the parole
board 11 times. And he, like my husband and your

(57:39):
husband, he was not the actual one that committed the murder.
But. Killed 3033 years and confined
to a wheelchair and 80 years old.
Oh. My gosh.
You can find his case on my Facebook.
Kuwait. So what was their reason for
denying him continuous parole? He's obviously not a threat to
societies in a wheelchair. He's only been in the wheelchair

(58:01):
since 2019, but he's had a parole here in since then and he
was denied but. What was the reason?
I'm because of his crime. Which he didn't actually commit
exactly. But in Georgia, he was party to
a crime, so therefore he's guilty of the.
Murder, right? Same as Nick.
I swear when I saw those postersin the rally that you did, I

(58:23):
could not believe my eyes. And it's one of those things
where you don't know until you know.
And because in Nebraska, people get paroled, it happens all the
time. So it's not a problem for us.
And I knew you had something against the parole board, but I
guess I didn't really know the details of why, what was going
on until you did that. Rally and you had those posters

(58:44):
and you wrote just so clearly. The circumstances like you just
spoke of, 80 years old in a wheelchair, 33 years
incarcerated, never had a write up denied how many times?
How does that make any sense? It doesn't in Georgia.
You can look at the statistics and every year the people
getting paroled has gone down less and less.

(59:04):
Our prisons are so overfilled that they're sleeping on the
floor where they're in the double bunk rooms in sales.
They've got three of them in there.
It's really bad here with the they were crowded and stuff
right now. And first of all, they need to
start with the lifers that were sentenced in the seven and 14
years that just like this man, just like my husband, the people

(59:26):
that are not getting in trouble,that have done everything after
them. They're not a threat to society.
They are not a problem to the staff.
They need to go ahead and paroleall those.
But if you look, the ones that have been getting paroled as of
2024, it was the short timers, the ones not serving long

(59:46):
sentences. But why is that?
Because they know they're going to be back.
And that is nothing but a monetary gain.
I've got another 132 years incarcerated.
The Christopher Frisby, he's been in since he was 16 years
old. He was sentenced during the
seven-year law, hasn't been convicted of a disciplinary

(01:00:08):
record in over 20 years. He's earned his associate's
bachelor's, he's got ACDL, vocational, all kinds of.
With Microsoft Word, he's published several coloring books
from within. He was set off in 2023 and he
don't have another one until this November, which I hope they
grant him parole because come on, he was 16 years old when he

(01:00:31):
was convicted. He was a child.
Do you know anybody that has gotten paroled from a lengthy
sentence? Not I had one that was just
released that I had wrote a poster for.
OK, one of the guys that I'd done a poster for.
Two weeks later, after the rally, he was actually moved to
ATCA Transitional. Center.

(01:00:54):
But to me, these guys do not need to be going to a
transitional center because the transitional centers, for them
to get out and work and stuff, they need to be let out, give
housing, get the mental health they need.
The transitional centers just tostep down from prison.
It's still prison, but it's justto sit down.
They can get out and work. But a lot of these guys are just

(01:01:17):
like that 80 year old. Why move him to a transitional
center? He cannot get out and work, and
like these guys, they need mental health.
They don't need to be out in theworld working right now.
And do these people that you're talking about, do they have
family? They do.
Just like the man that's 80 years old.
Yeah, he's been married 60 years.
His wife has been standing by him the whole time, the whole

(01:01:38):
33. Wow.
Exactly. And I have another one, Jeremy
Crawford, he's been in 24 years,no DRS, no nothing.
He's got up so many trades, carpet and motorist, CDL,
welding. And he's not up next till 2027
and he'll be in 25 years then. And then I even have another

(01:02:03):
one, Scott Mctaggart, he's been in since he was 14 years old.
Oh my gosh, 2028 years in, he's never had ADR.
Oh. My gosh, I can't listen.
And he he even works at the Georgia Public Safety Training
Center in the kitchen. I want to cry.

(01:02:23):
He's good enough to work in their training center in the
kitchen, but he's not good enough to give him parole 14.
He was. A baby. 14 years old.
Oh. My gosh, it's heartbreaking.
I feel like when you have these rallies, people must be shocked

(01:02:43):
at these statistics. Well, just like October 2nd is
wrongful conviction guy. Yes, I am having a rally.
It's at Liberty Plaza in Atlanta, GA right across from
the Capitol. I will be rallying for the
people that have been wrongfullyconvicted.
What's the advocacy like in Georgia?
Is there a lot of people that are advocating, like Nebraska
doesn't have a large group of people?

(01:03:05):
I'm trying to get one going, butthere doesn't really seem to be
a lot of people fighting for Prison Reform.
There is a lot of advocates per SE that have their own passions,
just like my passion is for my lifers, because of course it is.
My husband's a lifer and then tobleed off of that being the

(01:03:27):
lifer, my husband was sentenced under the 14 years.
So my passion is with the seven and 14 year lifers.
So that's what I go really hard for because my heart's in it.
And every advocate has their ownpassion and that's what they're
going to go hard for. Whereas all the advocates that
are in Georgia instead, I feel like they don't come together to

(01:03:51):
make a whole and we're all afterthe same thing and that's to get
these men and women out. And so it doesn't have as big an
impact as it could have if we all came to together.
And I feel like that is a commonproblem that I've heard of in
other states too. As you're speaking on that, I

(01:04:11):
know a few other women that advocate in different states,
and they experience the same thing as you.
They feel like everybody needs to group together and focus on
one thing at a time, but everybody is fighting for their
own personal gains as opposed tolike societal gains.
That's why I even feel about theones inside the walls.
I mean, they should, all of them.

(01:04:32):
Their purpose is to make it out of they're alive.
So therefore I think they shouldall come together.
There's strength in numbers and the GDC has numbers.
They have their numbers. So us as advocates, we all need
to come together and put our numbers together and put our
strengths and our passions together.
And the people on the inside, they need to come together and

(01:04:55):
do what they need to do to be able to get out of there instead
of fighting against each other. All these cases, are they on
your Facebook? They are, I mean, I may post
about them periodically throughout the time.
I'll make posts regarding each one of them for the facts, just
like I did with the posters. Some of them have come to me

(01:05:15):
since the rally. The rally actually drew in a lot
more people to me that have beensentenced sooner the seven and
14 year. So I did not create posters for
those. But one of my plans is not only
only am I writing the parole board once a week and emailing
them once a week, but I'm also going to start making a post

(01:05:38):
every week about these guys. I even have one female that has
reached out to me, Her family reached out to me and she was
actually on one of my posters and she's been in like 30 years
as well and she was sentenced during the 14 year.
Is there any mistakes that you made along the way?
Anything that you want to share?I've always loved hearing

(01:05:59):
people's experiences and advocating what they wish they
would have done differently to help those that are just
joining. Is there anything that you wish
you did differently? I wish I'd quit working at the
prison sooner and started advocating for all these people.
Before I did that's. Really the only thing that I
wish I'd done differently. But like we say, God's timing

(01:06:20):
and it was just time because I started learning of all these
people. And I probably would not have
done that had I not worked at the prison and I wouldn't have
my wonderful husband had I not worked in prison.
I would have never paid attention to anybody in prison.
That's just the facts of it. I'm just real about it.
And if I could tell anybody thathas starting their advocating

(01:06:43):
journey, you're going to hit dead end walls.
You're going to feel like it's not doing any good.
Just don't stop. No matter what.
If you get out there to have a rally and nobody shows up, have
that rally by yourself. You never know who you're going
to reach, and if you can reach one person, then you've done
something. Yeah, All it takes is 1, and

(01:07:05):
I've had a few people recently tell me that exact thing.
So I think it's interesting thatyou're bringing it up too,
because I've had some people that are advocating like 20
years. That said, to me, this is what
makes change. What we're doing actually does
affect change, even though it doesn't feel like it all the
time, but it does work. So it's going to feel like

(01:07:27):
you're getting nowhere, but you're making these baby steps
and then all of a sudden it's going to gain momentum.
It will work. It's just a matter of time and
not giving up. That's what he said.
No matter what, don't stop because that's where the problem
lies. They expect us to try for a
little bit and then give up, which is what 90% of people do.

(01:07:48):
Exactly. A lot of people feel like.
They're not getting nowhere because I hear people all the
time whenever I go to post abouta rally.
These rallies do no good and trying to be discouraging, and
it may seem like it's not doing any good at that very moment,
but eventually it will. And a lot of people put their
feelings into it. And I say follow your heart,

(01:08:10):
follow your heart. But at the same time, when
you're following your heart and you're putting your heart and
your soul into it, you can't take it to heart when it feels
like I'm not getting anywhere because that's where a lot of
people do stop. And if you stop, then you're not
going to do any good. The other thing I've realized is
not working, me and Nick have been working on this, not

(01:08:33):
working on absolutes, so not seeing success as releasing Nick
because when you look at it thatway, it seems so impossible.
And then your brain kind of shuts down because you're like,
I'm not getting to my end goal. But in your brain when you're
saying like a success to me is having another person join the
end felony murder group or having someone reach out or

(01:08:55):
whatever. Like just having it more open in
terms of what success means in an advocacy journey.
Instead of the only way I can measure success is freeing my
husband that it's not going to work because you're just going
to feel like a failure and it feels like this huge mountain.
What I do is each time somethingpositive happens, whether it be
getting to talk to a parole board member, getting to talk to

(01:09:18):
the governor, the parole investigator coming to talk to
him, those are all wins. Huge wins.
With the guy that got transferred to the TC, that was
a win. So each thing that happens,
that's the gift. That's what I'm after.
Whenever I have people reach outto me saying, hey, I've been
watching you. I had a prison wife called me a

(01:09:39):
few days ago out of nowhere and I started not to answer the
phone because I didn't know the number.
And I answered it. And she's not even on my
Facebook. But she said, hey, I've been
watching you and my husband had told me about you and wanted me
to reach out to you because I'm just starting my advocating
journey to get tips from you. It's just like I tell anybody,

(01:09:59):
follow your heart. Any idea that you think of,
follow through with it, put the effort in it, do it.
Don't stop and just don't stop. Exactly.
I agree. And you never know.
Like you said, one of the awesome women that I just spoke
to recently said that she met a stranger and was advocating on

(01:10:20):
behalf of her son to a stranger and they ended up knowing her
son. And she's like, I would never
have known that this person who was affiliated with legislature
knew who her son was, felt affected by it, and then could
pass on an advocate for him on his behalf.
You never know who knows who in this world.

(01:10:40):
And it's like the last rally I had, you know, I had more people
come up from out of the street than I had there.
Yeah. So you never know who you're
interacting with, who they know.And it only takes one person
exactly in reach. One person.
You've done something. Yeah, and you never know how
many failures you needed to go through to get to the win, which

(01:11:04):
is that journey of life. Like you said about your
husband, if you wouldn't have done certain things, you
wouldn't have met him. You wouldn't have where you are.
And you're going to feel like you have failed so many times.
You are going to feel like you have failed.
And you're going to be like, youknow what?
I just might as well quit. Yeah, that's going to come to
your mind. I don't care who you are.

(01:11:25):
If you're passionate. About it and your heart sends
to. It you're going to feel like
that, but The thing is, like I tell people.
If you have to stop for a minute, take a breath, refocus,
regroup and go at it a differentway, just don't stop.
Exactly. Shout out to anybody who's
afraid to open emails because Nick makes fun of me all the
time because I'm literally afraid to open the e-mail

(01:11:47):
because I'm so invested that I'mlike, I don't want to know the
answer because if it's bad, I don't know what I'm going to do.
And he has to like pep talk me like it's fine because either
way an answer is movement and that's all that matters.
But it scares me too. It's still something that I'm
working through is opening the emails and answering the calls
even if it means bad news because at least you know where

(01:12:09):
to go next rather than being in limbo so.
Yeah, exactly. So what's next?
What's your future? What's next without saying get
my husband out alive and saying about his mental health?
We have talked about advocating together as a husband and wife

(01:12:30):
team because what other better team is there than a husband and
wife? 100% he knows the inside of the
walls, I know the outside. Exactly.
Another thing is I am going to start working on getting the
party to a crime law changed here in Georgia.
There's a lot of other states that have changed it and

(01:12:52):
Georgia. It needs to get on board because
nobody should be in prison for murder unless they committed a
murder. Exactly.
That's what I'm going after. Also.
I think that it's very possible because I think that most people
don't understand it and I think once you learn about it, it just
doesn't make sense. Yes, those people that were
parties to a crime need to be held accountable, for sure.

(01:13:13):
I don't think anybody is debating that.
Just like I tell my husband, I'mnot biased whatsoever.
First of all, you were there. Yeah.
And you did not report it Exactly, even though I can see
the wise, but you were there andyou did not report it.
So I'm not saying that you shouldn't have served some time
because you didn't report the crime.

(01:13:35):
You didn't have no control over what the other person done.
But at the same time, you were there and you didn't report it.
So if they had a slap given withfive years, 10 years, I'll even
go 10 years, even though I think10 years is a little bit much
too. But if they'd slapped in with
five years for not reporting it,OK.
But to slap him with a life sentence and charge him with

(01:13:55):
murder, it's not good at. All I know it's not fair, it's
not right, it's not just and it's not proportional.
So crying. I had a group of young ladies
that were with a church group and they come through at the
last rally and I was talking to them and I mean, they were 1314
years old. And I told them who you're

(01:14:16):
around, who you're with matters.And I gave them my husband's
case, for example. You never know.
And like me and you, Jay, could be out somewhere and you just
decided you wanted to kill somebody.
I can't control what you just did.
But now if I don't go tell on you now, I'm going to be charged
with murder just for being therewith you.

(01:14:38):
Yeah. It's scary.
There's someone in Nebraska, IRA, he's been in IRA Leon, he's
been incarcerated for 33 years, I think.
And he just met the guy the sameday.
And then the guy went and killedthe clerk and he was like, what
the heck is going on the same day?
He didn't even know this human. And he's charged with a life

(01:14:58):
sentence. And in Nebraska, it's life
without parole automatically. So the person that actually
committed the murder, when he went to trial, the options were
first degree, second degree manslaughter.
So the jury had the option to charge him under different
categories. Whereas the people that were
parties to the crime, the jury was only allowed to select first

(01:15:22):
degree murder, life sentence or not guilty.
So what are you supposed to do? Meanwhile, the jury doesn't know
that the first degree murder charge equals an automatic life
without parole sentence. So they didn't even have an
option, but the shooter has options, but the guys that were
just standing there have no options.
They're either in for life or not at all.
How does that make any sense? It doesn't.

(01:15:44):
It doesn't to anybody who's logical.
So I think it's honestly, in my opinion, I think fighting these
party to a crime, felony murder type laws should be easy, should
be in theory, in practice, we'reabout to find out, but.

(01:16:05):
They're not going to make it easy.
There is Kentucky, Hawaii, Illinois, Minnesota,
Massachusetts. All them have changed.
Yep, Yep, Yep, Yep. It's so exciting and more and
more people are trying to do it.So it's just a matter of time, I
think, till we abolish it in the.
United States and it needs to beabolished because just like.
In Nick's case and then my husband's case, that's.

(01:16:28):
Wrongful convictions because they didn't commit a murder.
Exactly. It's disproportionate and it was
created in the UK and was abolished in the UK 75 years
ago. It these.
Types of laws only exist in the US and in Australia.
That's it. The rest of the world has
abolished. It because they understand that
it doesn't make sense. So why is 2 first world

(01:16:51):
developing countries one is the leader of the free world?
Why are we so behind in Prison Reform?
I don't know. I don't know either.
I can't answer that. Anyways, with that, it was great
speaking to you as it always is.I love connecting with you and I
love your insights and I love that we are on this journey

(01:17:12):
together. Let's talk about how people can
reach you. People can reach me on my
Facebook. Like I said, it's Stephanie
Navarrete, all you got. To do is take a look.
On there shouldn't be any other Stephanie Navarrete.
Can you spell? It's NAVARETE.
One look at my page and you'll be able to tell that I'm an

(01:17:32):
advocate. And I love also how open you are
to any opportunities. You are very open minded and I
feel like you love to help people.
You understand what it's like, what teamwork is, and how
important it is to connect with whoever we can.
So you're open to people adding you on Facebook and reaching out

(01:17:55):
to you, correct? Oh yes, anybody that wants to
add me on Facebook from other states, give me ideas.
I'll tell anybody in Georgia if they want to add me and join
with me in this fight. Throw me ideas out there.
Let's. Do it, we'll do it together.
I'm all about advocating for ourloved ones and getting them home

(01:18:15):
where they belong. Well, thank you again.
I so, so appreciate your time and insights.
It has been a very big learning experience.
We always have fun together. Me.
Too, And I'm sure you'll be backon because you're one of the
first people that I became friends with in the advocacy.
Work exactly. Actually, episode #3 yeah.

(01:18:38):
So I'm excited. Yeah.
Yeah. OK.
Well, I'm sure we'll talk soon. And again, thank you so much.
Thank you, Jake.