July 21, 2024 • 40 mins
Can music and poetry truly serve as vessels for divine connection and emotional healing? This episode promises to shed light on this intriguing question through the personal journey of our guest, Caroline, a 30-year-old mother of two and master's student in humanities, who has found deep spiritual solace in the arts. Caroline’s story reveals how the arts can connect us to Christ during our darkest hours when typical “primary answers” bring us heartache.
Caroline especially emphasizes that we must each figure out how Christ uniquely speaks to us and shares how she has heard His voice and felt His Spirit strongest through singing in choirs, poetry, and inspired novels like The Lord of the Rings
Reflecting on themes of faith and hope, Caroline discusses the comfort found in the Psalms and the beauty of sacrifice in following Jesus Christ. Through biblical stories and personal testimonies, we examine the importance of maintaining faith during times of suffering and darkness. Caroline's testament to Jesus as the "author and finisher" of our faith offers a compelling and heartfelt narrative that encourages us to find divine connection in the beauty around us and from what we or others create!
Caroline especially emphasizes that we must each figure out how Christ uniquely speaks to us and shares how she has heard His voice and felt His Spirit strongest through singing in choirs, poetry, and inspired novels like The Lord of the Rings
Reflecting on themes of faith and hope, Caroline discusses the comfort found in the Psalms and the beauty of sacrifice in following Jesus Christ. Through biblical stories and personal testimonies, we examine the importance of maintaining faith during times of suffering and darkness. Caroline's testament to Jesus as the "author and finisher" of our faith offers a compelling and heartfelt narrative that encourages us to find divine connection in the beauty around us and from what we or others create!
Please reach out to me if you are interested in sharing your story! I would LOVE to hear from you. :)
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:19):
Thank you and bring us peace upon reflection.
This podcast is dedicated tosharing these anchoring memories
from everyone's unique storiesin order to collectively
remember and testify of thereality of Jesus Christ and his
presence in our lives.
I'm your host, Lily, and I'mvery excited to share these
experiences together.
Good evening, everybody.
(00:40):
Today we have Caroline.
How are you?
Hi, I'm great.
Would you mind introducingyourself a little?
Speaker 2 (00:45):
bit for us.
Yeah, so I'm Caroline, I'm 30years old, I have two little
kids that are six, and two.
They're really fun and I'mgetting my master's in
humanities right now, which isreally fun.
It's kind of a big deal.
It's kind of a big deal, yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
How far are you into your?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
program.
I'm just one year in, so I'mjust at the beginning.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
So you still have a year left.
Is it a two-year program?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Well, I think it'll take me a while.
I'm just doing one class at atime.
Yeah, and it's online so I canSweet.
Yes, so it's nice because it'svery flexible finishing the
first year, but it has uh.
So, yeah, I'm doing humanitieswith an emphasis in christianity
nice so I'm just reallyinterested in the arts and
(01:29):
spirituality and how thoseinteract um and that's yeah,
that's basically sweet and I'mmarried, obviously because I
have two kids.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
But just to make that clear, I'm also married.
I've been married for eightyears, uh-huh, yeah, and you're
going to be doing residency yes,my husband's starting his
residency.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Yeah, so we're moving to Maine.
He's gonna do his residency inradiology so we're excited for
that.
Congratulations, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
It's gonna be such a fun adventure we're really
excited.
It will be, yeah, awesome.
Well then, I'll just ask youthe question, caroline what
memories do you have in yourlife that you reflect on, that
prick your heart and remembranceof Jesus Christ and anchor you
to him?
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Well, such a beautiful question.
And I think, as I was thinkingabout that, there is a scripture
that came to my mind.
It's from 2 Nephi 31.3.
I was just reading a couplenights ago and it says For the
Lord, god giveth light unto theunderstanding, for he speaketh
unto men according to theirlanguage, unto their
(02:26):
understanding.
And I love that scripturebecause I think my language is
music and art and I just feellike God speaks to us in our
language, like it says and sothroughout my life, as I was
thinking about those memories,so many of my connections to God
come through music and throughart.
I feel like that's kind of mymedium right that you can speak
(02:48):
to me in so cool.
Yeah, so when I was growing up,I sang.
I've always been a singer andlove singing and, um, when I
went to college, I studied music, music education at BYU, and so
so many of the times where I'vefelt divinity have been in song
(03:10):
have been with in singing, andespecially with choirs.
I feel like there's somethingabout singing with other people
that really feels like this formof like Zion for me.
It's like you're unified insong and it can be with people
that you have nothing in commonwith, but you're united in what
you're singing, right.
(03:30):
So there's this kind of uhtogetherness.
So I feel like choir has beenuh just so many times in my life
when I've been in a choir andwe're singing something where
I'll just feel this connection,this feeling of Zion, and those
have been really beautifulexperiences.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Is there any particular song that you're just
like?
It gets me every time?
Oh yes.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
So there's a song by a composer named Will Todd.
He's a contemporary composer,so he's alive right now and he
has a song called I wrote itdown what is it?
The call of wisdom?
It's really beautiful and Iremember actually listening to
it.
Um, the BYU singers justrecorded it on one of their
(04:14):
recent albums.
Yeah, and I was in a reallydark time and I was just
listening to that album oneSunday and that song came on and
part of the lyrics are that thechorus says um, I am here, do
you hear me?
And it just kind of will repeatthat over I am here, do you
hear me?
Um, and I just love.
(04:35):
It really struck me becausesometimes I'm like, oh,
sometimes we don't, sometimes wedon't hear him and yeah but
he's here so, so anyway, I lovethat song Right.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Okay, that's awesome, cool.
So then what do you haveanything?
I know you said music.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Yes, you mentioned art and obviously in the
humanities you're doing art andChristianity.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Yeah so what particularly about tangible art
as well?
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Yeah, like a medium or.
Yeah, well, one thing I lovealso is poetry and, yeah, and
there is a time in my life whereI really struggled with church
and with and with feelingconnected to God yeah and I had
had a lot of people that werereally close to me leave faith
(05:25):
and just choose different beliefsystems, and so things that
were related to the church werereally painful for me for a
little while.
So like reading the Book ofMormon was really hard.
Going to church, the temple,things that had been like kind
of spiritual touch points in mylife, right, I couldn't really
like access them anymore for alittle bit because it just
caused me pain.
I couldn't really feel Godthrough those for a little bit,
um, because it just caused mepain.
I couldn't really feel Godthrough those for a little bit,
(05:46):
and so during that time, um, Iturned to poetry and um, and it
was funny because I there's awriter I love her name, sarah
Clarkson, and she had a similarexperience and she talked about
how she couldn't read the bible,and so she read Lord of the
Rings and she's like and lookingback, I just kind of like I
(06:07):
could hear God laughing becauseshe's like it's the same story.
You know, it's like it's truth.
You know, yep, it's the theme,it's the things.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
It's like all the things.
So I feel that way with poetry,but I could read poetry and
it's the same you know, it'slike it's true so I feel like
there's this poem I wrote itdown because I love it by a poet
named Chesla Milotes.
I don't know if I'm pronouncingthat right, because it's I don't
(06:36):
know, but it's called One MoreDay and he talks about the last
part of it says and though thegood is weak, beauty is very
strong.
Non-being sprawls everywhere.
It turns into ash, wholeexpanses of being.
It masquerades in shapes andcolors that imitate existence
and no one would know it if theydid not know that it was ugly.
(06:57):
And when people cease tobelieve that there is good and
evil, only beauty will call tothem and save them.
So they will still know how tosay this is true and that is
false.
And I remember reading that andthat just really resonating
with me that beauty will alwayscall to us.
It's so hard to see somethingbeautiful and think that it's
(07:19):
ugly you know, like if you walkinto the Sistine Chapel.
You can can't say that that'sugly.
It just you know, it's justopposite.
And so I feel that way wheresometimes, when we get befuddled
with truth and error, butbeauty has always helped me,
it's kind of my guiding star ofGod's goodness, goodness, and so
(07:49):
poetry does that for me, whereI can feel divinity and I can
feel um the sense of peace thatnow I've been able to, as I've
kind of worked through um mydark times and as.
God has led me through that.
I feel like I've been able tocircle back to scripture and can
feel that same divinity andbeauty in it now again.
But when I couldn't?
Um, god speaks in our languageand God could speak to me
through poetry and through musicwhen I couldn't access it in
(08:11):
other, in other parts of hislanguage, I guess you know what
I mean.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
So did you?
Um, when it comes to music andpoetry, was it mostly reading or
listening to things that otherpeople have made that made you
feel the spirit, or do you?
Also really like to compose andcreate and stuff as well, like
do you do both?
Speaker 2 (08:30):
I don't really compose but I do love singing.
So whenever I do sing, I feellike I've had really great
experiences, like there was oneexperience where I was singing
at a funeral and I'd never metthe person, but it was a really
tragic death.
He had committed suicide andthe family had asked me to sing.
And they'd asked me to sing oh,divine redeemer.
(08:52):
And I had this experience whereI was singing the song.
I'd never met him before but Ifelt, as I was singing, that he
it was really like his song.
It was kind of his cry to god,um, and I was so overcome by
this feeling of this personbeing in that room and really
(09:13):
this cry, like his cry to god,of like have mercy on me, and I
like couldn't make it throughthis song.
I had never had that happenbefore, but I just like started
crying.
Yeah, I like couldn't, Icouldn't keep, I couldn't get
through because it was sopowerful.
So I feel like sometimes, wherelanguage can fail, music just
(09:35):
has this way of kind of gettingbeyond that Um, and so I've had
experiences like that where thespirit will just come as I'm
singing something that I canjust feel it's beyond me and
it's, it's somewhere else.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Yes, what about poetry?
Do you write your own poetry ordo you still like reading
poetry?
Speaker 2 (09:52):
yes, I also don't really write my own.
I would love to someday.
I think that would be so fun,but I think at this phase I'm
just kind of in the like readingand absorbing phase so yeah but
there are so many poets I loveand great Christian poets too
Like there's this poet who'salso current.
His name is Malcolm Geit.
I don't know if you read any ofhis stuff.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
I'm not.
I honestly am not big intopoetry.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
No, yeah, I understand.
It kind of feels like elitist alittle bit, or it can feel like
unapproachable sometimes.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
So I totally recommend starting with Malcolm
Guy, because his stuff is soapproachable.
He does collections fordifferent parts of the
liturgical calendar, if you'refamiliar with that.
So, like he'll do poems forLent or for Advent, so I love
celebrating Advent.
It's around Christmas time,yeah, and you know, as Mormons,
(10:42):
we don't really, we don't.
Yeah, we don't obviouslyformally celebrate the
liturgical calendar, but Ireally like it just as a
personal spiritual practicebecause it helps me just kind of
have different rituals thatreally I feel like connect me to
God.
So the Advent one is greatwhere, yeah, it leads up to
Christmas and I think you cancheck me on this, because I
(11:02):
don't I would have to check tomake sure but I think it also
goes the 12 days after Christmas, and so I love that.
I love a poem every day, yes,and I just love doing that
because it helps me just kind ofstart reflecting for the season
.
And then he also does it forLent, and that's really lovely
too.
So he has some greatcollections, yeah, Well, you of
(11:26):
the people that you, um, tell meabout tonight.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Would you mind texting those to me so that I
can put them up, so thateverybody else can listen to
them too and look at that, yeah,yeah because I think it's
really cool that you bring uplike poetry and and feeling
testimony through art yeahbecause I was actually I've
actually had two reallyinteresting experiences with
that recently.
The first one was so I have Ihave a brother with that.
(11:48):
I have two brothers with downsyndrome oh yeah, but one of
them he.
He's more verbal than the otherone, but he still can't really
talk very well.
He just graduated from highschool, oh that's and he, I keep
having this feeling.
Like you should interview Stefco, like you should interview
Stefco for the podcast and I'mlike, but how like he can't
really talk like yeah, it's,it's kind of difficult, but then
(12:10):
I had the feeling like no, lily, he loves the hymns.
Yes, like you need to ask himwhat his favorite hymn is yes
have him either, you know, andfigure and figure out how he can
share his testimony in that way, because, yes, music for him is
so powerful and we will justsee him sitting reading with his
(12:30):
hymn book and he or he'll takethese little like connector toys
or something and he'll likewrite out music notes oh like of
his favorite hymns.
He just and when he wants, whenhe's just at home he just
listens to Motab.
I guess we don't call it moreof a tabernacle choir anymore
Tabby cats.
Yeah, the tabernacle choir atTemple Square.
(12:53):
But he will.
He has this whole playlist thatit's like where's Stefco?
Oh, I hear the music on, that'swhere she is Wow yeah.
It's his language, and so Ithink I love how you're bringing
that this up, because it's likeanother confirmation to me of
you should try this yes, see howthis goes.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Yes, and you saying that reminds me I worked in
memory care for a little bitwith people that had Alzheimer's
and dementia doing music right,and it was amazing because they
would be non-verbal.
Some of them would be inwheelchairs but, they could sing
.
That is weird.
Yes, so they couldn't speak,but since music can go
throughout the whole brain, it'slike it could connect in ways
that, like other parts of theirbrain, couldn't connect anymore
(13:32):
right, so they could sing, andit was so.
That's wild like seeing themcome alive with music when they
couldn't with words, right, soanyway, that's wow, so you
should totally try.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Well, anybody listening?
Get ready for chef co's episode.
Yeah, I gotta figure out.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
You have no excuse now, it's coming, it's coming
out it's amazing.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
The other funny experience I had with poetry.
So I am not a poet.
I love to.
I love to write.
Writing is, yeah, I, I lovewriting, but I've always felt
like poetry was I like how yousay it's unapproachable?
Yeah, for me.
I'm a little bit more, maybeI'm the snooty one and I'm like
like, oh, like, it's just so, Idon't know, it's just, it's hard
(14:12):
for me to connect, like I loveWilliam.
I think I think William Blakeis the only poet that I've read
well, that's a good choice.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Yeah, yeah, like he's a classic.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Yes, so I love him, but everybody else.
I'm like, eh, not my yeah.
But so we were having thisRelief Society banquet, or
something I think, for theRelief Society birthday in my
ward and one of my friends whowas on the committee was like,
hey, lily, we really want you toshare your testimony.
And I was like, okay, I guess Ican do that.
(14:40):
And I was praying and reallypraying, like okay, well, how
should I like what should Ishare?
Right, and I'll have to sendyou the talk yeah.
President Packer um gave thistalk a few years before he
passed, I think, where he wrotea poem and as he, I think he
started it when he was like 50,and then every or 60 or
(15:03):
something, and then every 10years he would add a new stanza
oh, you know and as I wasreading it, I had the really
strong feeling Lily, you need towrite a poem.
Yeah, and I was like what doyou mean?
Speaker 2 (15:14):
I need to write a poem yeah, like I'll get up and
I'll like I'll like I'll give aspeech or talk or whatever, but
poetry really yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
I don't think this is so, not me yeah and I, I tried
writing and I'm a perfectionistanyway, yeah, so.
I was like stressing over it,trying to figure it out.
Well, I don't finish it until,literally, I'm about to go up to
talk and I'm freaking out andI'm stressing out.
But I will say I have not feltthe spirit testify more strongly
(15:44):
to me than when I finished thatpoem.
And it was insanely embarrassingbecause I got up there and I
was sobbing.
I don't.
I hate crying in public.
I know me too right, yeah it'slike the worst.
Yes, but I I was sobbing,caroline like I could not get
through this poem, especiallythe last part because, the last,
(16:05):
because what the whole poem waswas about was I really felt
like I needed to talk about thethings I know and the things
that I don't know yeah aboutbeing in the gospel, yeah, and
living the gospel right and sothe whole first part of the poem
is me kind of like lamenting toGod, like this is my list of I
don't knows yeah and then thelast part of it is the spirit
telling me the things that I doknow.
(16:27):
And the last part of it is likeme, kind of seeing what happens
in Gethsemane and Sam.
You want to get to anythingabout it.
Yes, think about that writingthat poem just completely
(16:52):
reshaped and the way I had toexpress myself and my testimony
in a different way.
It just spoke powerfully sopowerfully to me and and one of
my cute girlfriends got up tobear her testimony afterwards
and she likes to compose music,and so then she got up and
(17:12):
shared her testimony about howit is through the composition
and all those things that shehas felt the spirit, and so I
love how you're testifying tothat too, because it really I
didn't realize, yeah, howspecial that was until I had
that happen to me and and so now, yeah, that's just a poem that
I I will always treasure becauseit literally came from my soul.
(17:35):
Like I feel like when I write,when I write a talk, it comes
more from my mind yes and it'svery more logical, like there's
still some feeling behind it.
Yeah, but this poetry was like Iliterally bore my soul to these
women?
Speaker 2 (17:48):
yes, and it was.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
It was so uncomfortable, but it was so raw
.
Yeah that, I I it.
It was one of the most thestrongest spiritual experiences
I've ever had in my life, so I'mso happy that you brought that
up.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
That is so beautiful that is so beautiful I hope.
I hope you can maybe write.
Thank you, I know this isinspiring me.
I want to, but I'm scared.
So you're inspiring me that youdid it.
We can do that, yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
I definitely can do it.
Who was like yeah, poetry oh no, that is so.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
That's so beautiful it was really, it was quite the
experience yeah, but so arethere other like?
Are there other thingsspecifically with like music or
poetry or any other likememories that you really have
had, that really kind of stuckout to you a little bit more,
that you cling to or any othersyou know?
Speaker 2 (18:35):
no, yes, I will say just one other thing with music
and poetry.
I felt it so important that wehave so many different, uh,
connecting points with God,especially like with yeah, I
guess, like I've been saying,with music and art.
So one thing that I am reallypassionate about is doing that
(18:56):
with children.
So me and my friend startedthis website called the milk and
honey mamas and we um everyshe's studying theology and
getting her PhD in theology, soshe'll do like a theological
background to go along with.
Come follow me, and then I'lldo art, poetry and music to go
with every week, so we, and it'sfor children yeah
(19:16):
so that's just really importantto me too, that we give people
so many different ways ofconnecting with God, because I
think sometimes, again goingback to the language, like we'll
think that maybe the onlylanguage is scripture or prayer,
which are really importantlanguages of God, for sure, but
I think there's so many otherlanguages that maybe people
don't recognize in themselves,like music or poetry, that maybe
(19:39):
can reach them really well.
So anyway, that's justsomething to think about.
I was thinking about just likeall the different languages God
uses, because I've been readingthis book called the Reason for
God.
It's by Timothy Keller.
He was like a New York pastor Idon't know if you've ever read
it, but really good and I waslike man.
His language is likerationality, like he's so great
at communicating rationality andlike the rationality for God
(20:02):
and that's like his languagethat he can speak to you, know,
and like that connects with God,where he's like yeah, these are
the rational reasons for God,right, um, and I love that.
So, anyway, I just think it's sointeresting to discover, like,
what language God is speaking toyou in anyway, that's a side
note.
But, um, I think, otherexperiences.
I will say I have had somebeautiful experiences with
(20:24):
prayer and with the psalms.
So I, when I was going throughthat really dark time, when I
had a lot of close people to meleave, like I said, I really
struggled to connect withchurch-specific things, so I had
gone to poetry, but then I alsowent to the Psalms, and I love
the Psalms because there's justso many different types of
(20:47):
prayers to God and when I didn'treally have words, I felt like,
for God, they gave me words andmy favorite Psalm is Psalm 139.
And I think I just know I havethe NIV version memorized, so
it's a little different from theKJV which we normally use, but
the NIV version there's a partthat says, um, well, the first
(21:11):
part is really beautiful.
It says you have searched me,lord, and you know me, you know
when I sit down and when I riseup, and it goes through.
And then there's the part thatsays even the darkness is not
dark to you.
And that line has always stayedwith me because in my darkness
I felt like so unreachable, solonely, but knowing that
(21:36):
darkness is not dark to God,because he's light.
He is light.
He can always shine light intothe darkest places, and so even
my darkness wasn't dark to God,and I remember just reading that
outside on my phone and I neverread Psalm 139 before.
I don't even know how I got tothat Psalm, if I was just like
(21:56):
scrolling through, but oh, Ifelt so much of his presence in
that moment where I was likethis is not dark to him.
Yes, like I'm not dark to him,he can just, you know, he can
just shine his light throughthat.
Yes, um, and that has gotten methrough so many times to know,
even when I feel dark, it's notdark to him.
(22:17):
Nothing is dark to him,everything is light, everything
is bright, and he can lead usinto that lightness.
Um, and I was thinking aboutthat this week a lot because I
was talking to a friend who, ina really dark time of her life,
she didn't feel God at all.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
And she was like oh, if I'd felt him, I would have
stayed.
But I like felt nothing.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
And I was thinking about that because I was like
man in my dark times, like Ialso have felt nothing, Like I
haven't felt this like immediateconnection, of like comfort.
And then I thought of Jesus andI was like Jesus was on the
cross, he felt abandoned, hefelt nothing.
He said where are you?
(22:59):
Exactly?
He felt the dark.
He felt totally abandoned.
Yes, but I love that Jesusturns to God, in that, in the
dark, where he doesn't feelanything.
He says where are you?
There's still this trust thatGod is there, yes, and then he
(23:20):
goes into God's presence youknow, and so I was thinking
about that because I'm like,yeah, I felt abandoned and alone
, but then always I get to comeinto God's presence in some way,
in some way, like there is somesort of light that gets me
through that.
And going back to Lord of theRings, there's this part in Lord
of the Rings.
(23:41):
Anytime we can tie it back toLord of the.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Rings Right.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
There's this part at the end where they're climbing
Mount Doom and it's all darknessand just like horrible.
Yes, actually.
I'm going to find the quote Dohorrible, yes, actually I'm
gonna find the quote.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Do it.
Find the quote, do it.
I'm ready, because I'm a fan ofsam wise gamgee.
Let's do it, just to get the.
If you're gonna quote sam, yougotta do it right.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
I gotta do it right, potato.
Oh, because this part is sogood and it just like speaks to
what we're talking about.
Okay, so this is what sam says.
They're peeping among the cloudrack above a dark tour.
High up in the mountains, samsaw a white star twinkle for a
while.
The beauty of it smote hisheart as he looked up out of the
(24:22):
forsaken land and hope returnedto him.
For, like a shaft, clear andcold, the thought pierced in the
.
In the end, the shadow was onlya small and passing thing.
There was light and high beauty, forever beyond its reach.
That's from the return of theking isn't that so beautiful?
and I just love that because Ithink that's it like in the dark
, forsaken land, there's beautybeyond our reach, right, and
(24:45):
that has always got me through.
Beauty has always called to me,like that poem that we talked
about earlier, the cheslamioletsone has always called to me,
like that poem that we talkedabout earlier, the Cheslam Yaltz
one.
It has always called to me andhas helped me return to trusting
in light and trusting in JesusBecause I think it's real, more
real than anything else I'veexperienced.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Right.
So then, what I'm getting fromour conversation that we're
having right now is peopleshould try and figure out what
language is the lord speaks tothem yeah, and then seek to find
the beauty in the world thatcan add light.
Yeah, is that my understanding?
Speaker 2 (25:19):
yes, absolutely yes and I would also say a big thing
that I've come to believe isthat we all choose what to trust
in.
No matter what world we have,we're trusting in something and
for me, I just trust in Jesusmore than anything else.
Yeah, I trust in his life, Itrust in, I trust his word, that
(25:41):
what he says he's not lying,you know like I think he's
really.
When he says that he has come toredeem, that he's come to heal,
that he has come to repair thebreach, I trust that that is
really true.
When he says he can do his ownwork, I trust that I know he can
do his work.
When he says he loves us, thatwe're his children, I trust that
(26:02):
.
I believe that that is true.
When he says he knows us, Ibelieve that I've felt that.
So I think I've just come toreally realize in my life that I
trust him more than anythingelse right, you know.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
So how do you do that ?
I guess then in the dark times,because I feel like you're
giving me this really bigcontrast, as I hear a person
testifying.
Oh my gosh, I felt the darkness.
I've been on Mount Doom, yes andthen, but at the same time,
you're like but I trust him andI have this complete faith in
him and I'm sitting here goinghow, yeah, because, honestly,
(26:37):
like, I feel like that and Ithink that's a lesson that I
know.
I'm for sure, learning I know alot of people are learning is
how, when you when you feel this, this crushing darkness.
Yeah, how can you come out ofit?
and or even while you're in itand when you come out of it say
I, I am his, yeah, he is mine,yeah, how the heck do you do
(26:58):
that like?
Speaker 2 (26:59):
I'm super.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
I think it's amazing that you're testifying of it,
because I needed to hear that ohbut now can you help us who
might be struggling with that.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
yes, oh yes, what?
Yes, what a beautiful question.
Well, there's a couple ofthings I will say.
The first thing I think is Ithink that sometimes we think,
if we are in sorrow, or if we'rein darkness or in doubt, that
that is somehow well, and thismight sound cliche, but I guess
(27:29):
I would say sometimes that feelslike we are failing in some way
, that we're failing God.
I think I've learned thatsorrow, suffering, darkness,
they can be a form of worship,and I guess what I mean is like
if you read job's story right orreading the psalms yeah, like
(27:53):
we were talking about I thinkthose are really dark stories a
lot of them, a lot of psalms,are like rough.
A lot of you know job's story,rough story yes, we're like
talking about suffering anddarkness.
That's like yeah, that's itright, but I find them to be so
worshipful because they alwaystake that to god.
(28:16):
There's still this feeling oflike I am in despair.
Where are you?
right and I guess the where areyou might feel like this failure
, but I feel like there's thisstill.
There's like this reaching out.
So when I think about JosephSmith saying like, oh God, oh
God, where are you now?
I think about Jesus saying likewhere are you?
(28:36):
Right, I think of that asworship.
There's like this reaching thehand out to being like I am
reaching for you, reach back tome, I need you.
There's this ultimate humility,there's this recognition of
like I cannot do this alone.
So when I see that in Jesus ofbeing like, this is my darkest
(28:58):
hour and I feel abandoned, rightLike, I feel alone.
So I think when we look toJesus in that way, it's like
Jesus felt that he feltabandoned, he felt darkness and
he turned it to God.
And he didn't feel God in thatmoment, but he turned it to God
and then eventually has led toGod's presence.
So I think that's a big thing,is like.
(29:20):
I think we can think of it as aform of worship when we take it
to him, even if we don't feelanything.
It's still this act of trust oflike I don't feel you at all,
but I'm gonna bring it to youanyway, right, um, and that's
not cheap like, that's like verycostly you know, like that will
(29:42):
cost you something and thatwill like bring you to a
different place of faith, right?
the other thing I think is kindof what I was saying before,
which is like we all have totrust in something.
So I think how like a verypractical thing for me was like
really looking at the otheroptions yeah of of world views
(30:02):
and cons yeah and like, really,looking at, we'll just take
atheism because it's like so youknow that's like a very intense
opposite one yes, atheism, andI was like, okay, like let's say
that is what is real right.
There is no god right, and weare here and it's okay.
(30:25):
So for me I just can't.
That has been so contrary to mylived experience of what life
is for me.
I've felt inherent meaning ineverything.
Yeah, for me, like I can'treally reduce friendship,
marriage, love, children to justevolution, like it doesn't,
(30:52):
it's just too reductionist Idon't know.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
It's like.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
This is how it is, yeah and for me I'm like that
just isn't how people live likethat's not how people act.
People don't even if you like,are like a 100 atheist.
You don't live that belief outlike.
You still act like things havemeaning.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
You still act like your relationships matter to you
and you can say, yes, it's likesoul and like the human part in
my mind yeah, atheism, kind oflike I don't want to say rejects
it yeah it rejects a lot ofthings.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Yes, yes and I just don't think people really live
that way and I haven't, I, Idon't know, I just there's too
much meaning for me and I knowpeople can say you can create
your own meaning, but that's sofragile and and it just doesn't
check out for me.
So I think, like for me, likepeople don't live that way,
(31:46):
right, right, anyway.
So I think, like for me, reallytrying to like logistically,
logistically, look at each worldview and look at the
rationalism behind them and belike okay, is this like?
does this match up?
with what I feel is is livedreality.
Yeah, um, and I think for me, Ijust like, I think it just came
(32:09):
to.
I believe that there isinherent morality.
I believe that meaning is realand also that we don't just
create it ourselves.
I believe that there is so muchagain, beauty, which I guess,
guess, yeah, people say thatwouldn't be evidence for God,
(32:29):
but I feel like it's a very goodclue.
I feel like beauty matters tome because there's no real
reason for it and it's soabundant.
This desire to create, to be inrelationship, I don't know.
All of those things to me arejust clues and I have felt so
much divinity in life that I'mlike I just that really helped
(32:53):
me hold on to at least just theidea of God at first, where I
was like no, I really feel thatthere is more, and that was kind
of impossible to take from me,just from my lived experience,
right, right, life you knowright when I think it's okay for
you, anybody or anybody yeah toreally kind of take that line
(33:16):
up online.
Precept upon precept it's okay,to step back and be like yeah
okay, let's literally, logically, and yes, cons, let's look at
okay god divinity, yes.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
This step yes, and I think that that is good and I
think that that is okay, becauseyeah, I think sometimes, when
you just kind of like try anddrink it from a fire hose yeah,
it's really overwhelming but.
I really do think that it isvery healthy to step back and,
yeah, ask the one question at atime.
Yeah, and ponder that onequestion at a time yes and I
think the spirit will testify toyou of which direction that is,
(33:49):
and that yeah, and thathonestly, that that might be for
some people maybe needing tostep away just for a little bit
and then coming back yeah forsome people that might be just
saying, okay, I'm just gonnahold on real tight and just wait
and see what happens.
You know, yes, yes, the spiritspeaks to us all differently?
Yes, but I think I think thatagain, if we circle back to the
(34:10):
learning the language that Godspeaks to you and the
appreciating beauty.
I think doing those thingsreally will help you sift and
find that meaning and find thoseanswers because, you know, it's
true, god doesn't speak to us.
All the same, yeah you know,it's true, god doesn't speak to
(34:30):
us all the same, yeah, and Ithink even just so, when you see
something beautiful, you feelthe spirit a little bit.
Yeah, and I think even that canbe that star that Sam saw on
Mount.
Doom and you're just like okay,I can keep going, we're almost
there, right?
Speaker 2 (34:42):
Yes, oh, absolutely.
And I love in the scripturesGod says like he will manifest
the truth to you.
And I think manifest is such aopen, beautiful word because
sometimes I think, growing up, Ithought, like the promise you
know of, like, oh, like, prayabout the book to you, and so I
just think that word is reallybeautiful because again, he'll
(35:11):
speak in your language and he'llmanifest it to you.
Yes, and that can look sodifferently, you know, depending
on who.
You are right, and I feel likehe's done that to me in a very
personal, in my own way.
he's manifested himself to me inways that, like he could only
do for me you know, and it'senough for me, and it might not
be for somebody else, but he canmanifest it to them in their
(35:33):
way, and that will be for themright, so right.
Like someone else might hearbeauty and think that's silly
and it doesn't manifest to them,but to me, that's how god
manifests to me and it's a waythat really speaks to me.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
So anyway, right, that's awesome.
Well, I've I've truly enjoyedour conversation.
This has been so much fun metoo.
Do you have any other thoughtsthat you would like to share
before leaving us with thetestimony?
Speaker 2 (35:56):
I will just say I guess this is kind of my
testimony, but I I feel like itis the best sacrifice ever.
I know we make that covenant ofsacrifice and I think it is so
(36:21):
important that it's one of thosecovenants that we make.
It's so just sacrifice isimportant.
So I guess too, when we'retalking about the darkness and
like and trying to hold on, Ithink sacrifice will just be a
part of faith and of followingjesus.
I mean jesus, yeah, that washis life just full of sacrifice.
(36:45):
Yes.
So if we want to follow that,there will be some of that
involved.
But I just think I wouldn't.
There's nothing I would rathersacrifice than my life to try to
follow him and I just have suchan abundance of gratitude for
(37:05):
how I have seen him in my life,such an abundance of gratitude
for how I have seen him in mylife and, and even the times I
haven't felt him there, I havefelt him through people and I
love that we call ourselves likethe body of Christ, because I
really feel God and other peopleso much and how he works
through people.
(37:26):
So times when I felt alone I wasgiven people know that like
helped me through in so manybeautiful ways and helped me
stay close to God, and so that'sanother thing I'd say is that I
think the body of Christ isreal and I'm so grateful to be
in the church for that reason,because it's real, and like
(37:46):
moving to Maine I am so I feelso comforted because I know that
I always have the body ofChrist with me, like I know I
have a family to go to there.
I know I have people that careand that are full of belief and
trying to you know right, followJesus and the way I'm trying to
(38:06):
follow Jesus.
So, anyway, but yeah, I willjust say I really do love him
and as struggling as I am and asimperfect as I am, I think it's
something that I will justwrestle.
Faith will be something Iwrestle with my whole life
because I just want to followhim the best way I can.
(38:28):
So I'm just so grateful forthis opportunity to testify of
that.
It's like such a wonderfulthing that you're doing to help
and encourage people to testifyof Christ everywhere.
It's so important and um, and Ilove.
I don't remember if you sentthis to me or if it's part of
your podcast, but you like thefirst phrase in the google if
you sent this to me or if it'spart of your podcast, but you
(38:49):
like the first phrase in theGoogle Doc you sent is that he's
the author and finisher of ourfaith, and I just have been
thinking about that phrase somuch that he is the author of
our faith.
I love that and it reminds meof there's this CS Lewis quote
where he's talking about how itwas after they had gone to the
moon and they came back and theysaid, oh, we didn't see God up
(39:12):
there.
And CS Lewis's response wassomething like oh well, if God
is there, we don't relate to him.
Like going up in an apartmentbuilding and like going up to
the third story and there he is.
If God is real, it's more likehe is the author and we're the
characters in the play and theonly way we recognize him is he
(39:32):
writes himself into the play.
Yeah, and that's how we knowhe's there.
So I was just thinking aboutthat like the author and
finisher of our faith and I'mlike he has written himself into
my story in like reallypersonal ways and I just love
that phrase because I hadn'treally thought of that like he
is the author of my faith, likehe has written himself into my
story and I'm so grateful forthat awesome.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
Well, thank you, caroline, so much for spending
this time together with me.
It's it's been wonderful.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
Oh, I've loved it.
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
You're welcome.
Thanks again for tuning intomore than coincidence
remembering Jesus Christ in yourStory.
Please follow us on socialmedia or share us with a friend.
If you have an experience you'dlike to share, feel free to
reach out tomorethancoincidencerememberhim
at gmailcom.
I can't wait to hear all of theamazing memories you all have
(40:22):
of our Savior.
See you next time.
Thank you and bring us peace upon reflection.
This podcast is dedicated tosharing these anchoring memories
from everyone's unique storiesin order to collectively
remember and testify of thereality of Jesus Christ and his
presence in our lives.
I'm your host, Lily, and I'mvery excited to share these
experiences together.
Good evening, everybody.
(00:40):
Today we have Caroline.
How are you?
Hi, I'm great.
Would you mind introducingyourself a little?
Speaker 2 (00:45):
bit for us.
Yeah, so I'm Caroline, I'm 30years old, I have two little
kids that are six, and two.
They're really fun and I'mgetting my master's in
humanities right now, which isreally fun.
It's kind of a big deal.
It's kind of a big deal, yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
How far are you into your?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
program.
I'm just one year in, so I'mjust at the beginning.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
So you still have a year left.
Is it a two-year program?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Well, I think it'll take me a while.
I'm just doing one class at atime.
Yeah, and it's online so I canSweet.
Yes, so it's nice because it'svery flexible finishing the
first year, but it has uh.
So, yeah, I'm doing humanitieswith an emphasis in christianity
nice so I'm just reallyinterested in the arts and
(01:29):
spirituality and how thoseinteract um and that's yeah,
that's basically sweet and I'mmarried, obviously because I
have two kids.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
But just to make that clear, I'm also married.
I've been married for eightyears, uh-huh, yeah, and you're
going to be doing residency yes,my husband's starting his
residency.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Yeah, so we're moving to Maine.
He's gonna do his residency inradiology so we're excited for
that.
Congratulations, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
It's gonna be such a fun adventure we're really
excited.
It will be, yeah, awesome.
Well then, I'll just ask youthe question, caroline what
memories do you have in yourlife that you reflect on, that
prick your heart and remembranceof Jesus Christ and anchor you
to him?
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Well, such a beautiful question.
And I think, as I was thinkingabout that, there is a scripture
that came to my mind.
It's from 2 Nephi 31.3.
I was just reading a couplenights ago and it says For the
Lord, god giveth light unto theunderstanding, for he speaketh
unto men according to theirlanguage, unto their
(02:26):
understanding.
And I love that scripturebecause I think my language is
music and art and I just feellike God speaks to us in our
language, like it says and sothroughout my life, as I was
thinking about those memories,so many of my connections to God
come through music and throughart.
I feel like that's kind of mymedium right that you can speak
(02:48):
to me in so cool.
Yeah, so when I was growing up,I sang.
I've always been a singer andlove singing and, um, when I
went to college, I studied music, music education at BYU, and so
so many of the times where I'vefelt divinity have been in song
(03:10):
have been with in singing, andespecially with choirs.
I feel like there's somethingabout singing with other people
that really feels like this formof like Zion for me.
It's like you're unified insong and it can be with people
that you have nothing in commonwith, but you're united in what
you're singing, right.
(03:30):
So there's this kind of uhtogetherness.
So I feel like choir has beenuh just so many times in my life
when I've been in a choir andwe're singing something where
I'll just feel this connection,this feeling of Zion, and those
have been really beautifulexperiences.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Is there any particular song that you're just
like?
It gets me every time?
Oh yes.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
So there's a song by a composer named Will Todd.
He's a contemporary composer,so he's alive right now and he
has a song called I wrote itdown what is it?
The call of wisdom?
It's really beautiful and Iremember actually listening to
it.
Um, the BYU singers justrecorded it on one of their
(04:14):
recent albums.
Yeah, and I was in a reallydark time and I was just
listening to that album oneSunday and that song came on and
part of the lyrics are that thechorus says um, I am here, do
you hear me?
And it just kind of will repeatthat over I am here, do you
hear me?
Um, and I just love.
(04:35):
It really struck me becausesometimes I'm like, oh,
sometimes we don't, sometimes wedon't hear him and yeah but
he's here so, so anyway, I lovethat song Right.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Okay, that's awesome, cool.
So then what do you haveanything?
I know you said music.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Yes, you mentioned art and obviously in the
humanities you're doing art andChristianity.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Yeah so what particularly about tangible art
as well?
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Yeah, like a medium or.
Yeah, well, one thing I lovealso is poetry and, yeah, and
there is a time in my life whereI really struggled with church
and with and with feelingconnected to God yeah and I had
had a lot of people that werereally close to me leave faith
(05:25):
and just choose different beliefsystems, and so things that
were related to the church werereally painful for me for a
little while.
So like reading the Book ofMormon was really hard.
Going to church, the temple,things that had been like kind
of spiritual touch points in mylife, right, I couldn't really
like access them anymore for alittle bit because it just
caused me pain.
I couldn't really feel Godthrough those for a little bit,
um, because it just caused mepain.
I couldn't really feel Godthrough those for a little bit,
(05:46):
and so during that time, um, Iturned to poetry and um, and it
was funny because I there's awriter I love her name, sarah
Clarkson, and she had a similarexperience and she talked about
how she couldn't read the bible,and so she read Lord of the
Rings and she's like and lookingback, I just kind of like I
(06:07):
could hear God laughing becauseshe's like it's the same story.
You know, it's like it's truth.
You know, yep, it's the theme,it's the things.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
It's like all the things.
So I feel that way with poetry,but I could read poetry and
it's the same you know, it'slike it's true so I feel like
there's this poem I wrote itdown because I love it by a poet
named Chesla Milotes.
I don't know if I'm pronouncingthat right, because it's I don't
(06:36):
know, but it's called One MoreDay and he talks about the last
part of it says and though thegood is weak, beauty is very
strong.
Non-being sprawls everywhere.
It turns into ash, wholeexpanses of being.
It masquerades in shapes andcolors that imitate existence
and no one would know it if theydid not know that it was ugly.
(06:57):
And when people cease tobelieve that there is good and
evil, only beauty will call tothem and save them.
So they will still know how tosay this is true and that is
false.
And I remember reading that andthat just really resonating
with me that beauty will alwayscall to us.
It's so hard to see somethingbeautiful and think that it's
(07:19):
ugly you know, like if you walkinto the Sistine Chapel.
You can can't say that that'sugly.
It just you know, it's justopposite.
And so I feel that way wheresometimes, when we get befuddled
with truth and error, butbeauty has always helped me,
it's kind of my guiding star ofGod's goodness, goodness, and so
(07:49):
poetry does that for me, whereI can feel divinity and I can
feel um the sense of peace thatnow I've been able to, as I've
kind of worked through um mydark times and as.
God has led me through that.
I feel like I've been able tocircle back to scripture and can
feel that same divinity andbeauty in it now again.
But when I couldn't?
Um, god speaks in our languageand God could speak to me
through poetry and through musicwhen I couldn't access it in
(08:11):
other, in other parts of hislanguage, I guess you know what
I mean.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
So did you?
Um, when it comes to music andpoetry, was it mostly reading or
listening to things that otherpeople have made that made you
feel the spirit, or do you?
Also really like to compose andcreate and stuff as well, like
do you do both?
Speaker 2 (08:30):
I don't really compose but I do love singing.
So whenever I do sing, I feellike I've had really great
experiences, like there was oneexperience where I was singing
at a funeral and I'd never metthe person, but it was a really
tragic death.
He had committed suicide andthe family had asked me to sing.
And they'd asked me to sing oh,divine redeemer.
(08:52):
And I had this experience whereI was singing the song.
I'd never met him before but Ifelt, as I was singing, that he
it was really like his song.
It was kind of his cry to god,um, and I was so overcome by
this feeling of this personbeing in that room and really
(09:13):
this cry, like his cry to god,of like have mercy on me, and I
like couldn't make it throughthis song.
I had never had that happenbefore, but I just like started
crying.
Yeah, I like couldn't, Icouldn't keep, I couldn't get
through because it was sopowerful.
So I feel like sometimes, wherelanguage can fail, music just
(09:35):
has this way of kind of gettingbeyond that Um, and so I've had
experiences like that where thespirit will just come as I'm
singing something that I canjust feel it's beyond me and
it's, it's somewhere else.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Yes, what about poetry?
Do you write your own poetry ordo you still like reading
poetry?
Speaker 2 (09:52):
yes, I also don't really write my own.
I would love to someday.
I think that would be so fun,but I think at this phase I'm
just kind of in the like readingand absorbing phase so yeah but
there are so many poets I loveand great Christian poets too
Like there's this poet who'salso current.
His name is Malcolm Geit.
I don't know if you read any ofhis stuff.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
I'm not.
I honestly am not big intopoetry.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
No, yeah, I understand.
It kind of feels like elitist alittle bit, or it can feel like
unapproachable sometimes.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
So I totally recommend starting with Malcolm
Guy, because his stuff is soapproachable.
He does collections fordifferent parts of the
liturgical calendar, if you'refamiliar with that.
So, like he'll do poems forLent or for Advent, so I love
celebrating Advent.
It's around Christmas time,yeah, and you know, as Mormons,
(10:42):
we don't really, we don't.
Yeah, we don't obviouslyformally celebrate the
liturgical calendar, but Ireally like it just as a
personal spiritual practicebecause it helps me just kind of
have different rituals thatreally I feel like connect me to
God.
So the Advent one is greatwhere, yeah, it leads up to
Christmas and I think you cancheck me on this, because I
(11:02):
don't I would have to check tomake sure but I think it also
goes the 12 days after Christmas, and so I love that.
I love a poem every day, yes,and I just love doing that
because it helps me just kind ofstart reflecting for the season
.
And then he also does it forLent, and that's really lovely
too.
So he has some greatcollections, yeah, Well, you of
(11:26):
the people that you, um, tell meabout tonight.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Would you mind texting those to me so that I
can put them up, so thateverybody else can listen to
them too and look at that, yeah,yeah because I think it's
really cool that you bring uplike poetry and and feeling
testimony through art yeahbecause I was actually I've
actually had two reallyinteresting experiences with
that recently.
The first one was so I have Ihave a brother with that.
(11:48):
I have two brothers with downsyndrome oh yeah, but one of
them he.
He's more verbal than the otherone, but he still can't really
talk very well.
He just graduated from highschool, oh that's and he, I keep
having this feeling.
Like you should interview Stefco, like you should interview
Stefco for the podcast and I'mlike, but how like he can't
really talk like yeah, it's,it's kind of difficult, but then
(12:10):
I had the feeling like no, lily, he loves the hymns.
Yes, like you need to ask himwhat his favorite hymn is yes
have him either, you know, andfigure and figure out how he can
share his testimony in that way, because, yes, music for him is
so powerful and we will justsee him sitting reading with his
(12:30):
hymn book and he or he'll takethese little like connector toys
or something and he'll likewrite out music notes oh like of
his favorite hymns.
He just and when he wants, whenhe's just at home he just
listens to Motab.
I guess we don't call it moreof a tabernacle choir anymore
Tabby cats.
Yeah, the tabernacle choir atTemple Square.
(12:53):
But he will.
He has this whole playlist thatit's like where's Stefco?
Oh, I hear the music on, that'swhere she is Wow yeah.
It's his language, and so Ithink I love how you're bringing
that this up, because it's likeanother confirmation to me of
you should try this yes, see howthis goes.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Yes, and you saying that reminds me I worked in
memory care for a little bitwith people that had Alzheimer's
and dementia doing music right,and it was amazing because they
would be non-verbal.
Some of them would be inwheelchairs but, they could sing
.
That is weird.
Yes, so they couldn't speak,but since music can go
throughout the whole brain, it'slike it could connect in ways
that, like other parts of theirbrain, couldn't connect anymore
(13:32):
right, so they could sing, andit was so.
That's wild like seeing themcome alive with music when they
couldn't with words, right, soanyway, that's wow, so you
should totally try.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Well, anybody listening?
Get ready for chef co's episode.
Yeah, I gotta figure out.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
You have no excuse now, it's coming, it's coming
out it's amazing.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
The other funny experience I had with poetry.
So I am not a poet.
I love to.
I love to write.
Writing is, yeah, I, I lovewriting, but I've always felt
like poetry was I like how yousay it's unapproachable?
Yeah, for me.
I'm a little bit more, maybeI'm the snooty one and I'm like
like, oh, like, it's just so, Idon't know, it's just, it's hard
(14:12):
for me to connect, like I loveWilliam.
I think I think William Blakeis the only poet that I've read
well, that's a good choice.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Yeah, yeah, like he's a classic.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Yes, so I love him, but everybody else.
I'm like, eh, not my yeah.
But so we were having thisRelief Society banquet, or
something I think, for theRelief Society birthday in my
ward and one of my friends whowas on the committee was like,
hey, lily, we really want you toshare your testimony.
And I was like, okay, I guess Ican do that.
(14:40):
And I was praying and reallypraying, like okay, well, how
should I like what should Ishare?
Right, and I'll have to sendyou the talk yeah.
President Packer um gave thistalk a few years before he
passed, I think, where he wrotea poem and as he, I think he
started it when he was like 50,and then every or 60 or
(15:03):
something, and then every 10years he would add a new stanza
oh, you know and as I wasreading it, I had the really
strong feeling Lily, you need towrite a poem.
Yeah, and I was like what doyou mean?
Speaker 2 (15:14):
I need to write a poem yeah, like I'll get up and
I'll like I'll like I'll give aspeech or talk or whatever, but
poetry really yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
I don't think this is so, not me yeah and I, I tried
writing and I'm a perfectionistanyway, yeah, so.
I was like stressing over it,trying to figure it out.
Well, I don't finish it until,literally, I'm about to go up to
talk and I'm freaking out andI'm stressing out.
But I will say I have not feltthe spirit testify more strongly
(15:44):
to me than when I finished thatpoem.
And it was insanely embarrassingbecause I got up there and I
was sobbing.
I don't.
I hate crying in public.
I know me too right, yeah it'slike the worst.
Yes, but I I was sobbing,caroline like I could not get
through this poem, especiallythe last part because, the last,
(16:05):
because what the whole poem waswas about was I really felt
like I needed to talk about thethings I know and the things
that I don't know yeah aboutbeing in the gospel, yeah, and
living the gospel right and sothe whole first part of the poem
is me kind of like lamenting toGod, like this is my list of I
don't knows yeah and then thelast part of it is the spirit
telling me the things that I doknow.
(16:27):
And the last part of it is likeme, kind of seeing what happens
in Gethsemane and Sam.
You want to get to anythingabout it.
Yes, think about that writingthat poem just completely
(16:52):
reshaped and the way I had toexpress myself and my testimony
in a different way.
It just spoke powerfully sopowerfully to me and and one of
my cute girlfriends got up tobear her testimony afterwards
and she likes to compose music,and so then she got up and
(17:12):
shared her testimony about howit is through the composition
and all those things that shehas felt the spirit, and so I
love how you're testifying tothat too, because it really I
didn't realize, yeah, howspecial that was until I had
that happen to me and and so now, yeah, that's just a poem that
I I will always treasure becauseit literally came from my soul.
(17:35):
Like I feel like when I write,when I write a talk, it comes
more from my mind yes and it'svery more logical, like there's
still some feeling behind it.
Yeah, but this poetry was like Iliterally bore my soul to these
women?
Speaker 2 (17:48):
yes, and it was.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
It was so uncomfortable, but it was so raw
.
Yeah that, I I it.
It was one of the most thestrongest spiritual experiences
I've ever had in my life, so I'mso happy that you brought that
up.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
That is so beautiful that is so beautiful I hope.
I hope you can maybe write.
Thank you, I know this isinspiring me.
I want to, but I'm scared.
So you're inspiring me that youdid it.
We can do that, yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
I definitely can do it.
Who was like yeah, poetry oh no, that is so.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
That's so beautiful it was really, it was quite the
experience yeah, but so arethere other like?
Are there other thingsspecifically with like music or
poetry or any other likememories that you really have
had, that really kind of stuckout to you a little bit more,
that you cling to or any othersyou know?
Speaker 2 (18:35):
no, yes, I will say just one other thing with music
and poetry.
I felt it so important that wehave so many different, uh,
connecting points with God,especially like with yeah, I
guess, like I've been saying,with music and art.
So one thing that I am reallypassionate about is doing that
(18:56):
with children.
So me and my friend startedthis website called the milk and
honey mamas and we um everyshe's studying theology and
getting her PhD in theology, soshe'll do like a theological
background to go along with.
Come follow me, and then I'lldo art, poetry and music to go
with every week, so we, and it'sfor children yeah
(19:16):
so that's just really importantto me too, that we give people
so many different ways ofconnecting with God, because I
think sometimes, again goingback to the language, like we'll
think that maybe the onlylanguage is scripture or prayer,
which are really importantlanguages of God, for sure, but
I think there's so many otherlanguages that maybe people
don't recognize in themselves,like music or poetry, that maybe
(19:39):
can reach them really well.
So anyway, that's justsomething to think about.
I was thinking about just likeall the different languages God
uses, because I've been readingthis book called the Reason for
God.
It's by Timothy Keller.
He was like a New York pastor Idon't know if you've ever read
it, but really good and I waslike man.
His language is likerationality, like he's so great
at communicating rationality andlike the rationality for God
(20:02):
and that's like his languagethat he can speak to you, know,
and like that connects with God,where he's like yeah, these are
the rational reasons for God,right, um, and I love that.
So, anyway, I just think it's sointeresting to discover, like,
what language God is speaking toyou in anyway, that's a side
note.
But, um, I think, otherexperiences.
I will say I have had somebeautiful experiences with
(20:24):
prayer and with the psalms.
So I, when I was going throughthat really dark time, when I
had a lot of close people to meleave, like I said, I really
struggled to connect withchurch-specific things, so I had
gone to poetry, but then I alsowent to the Psalms, and I love
the Psalms because there's justso many different types of
(20:47):
prayers to God and when I didn'treally have words, I felt like,
for God, they gave me words andmy favorite Psalm is Psalm 139.
And I think I just know I havethe NIV version memorized, so
it's a little different from theKJV which we normally use, but
the NIV version there's a partthat says, um, well, the first
(21:11):
part is really beautiful.
It says you have searched me,lord, and you know me, you know
when I sit down and when I riseup, and it goes through.
And then there's the part thatsays even the darkness is not
dark to you.
And that line has always stayedwith me because in my darkness
I felt like so unreachable, solonely, but knowing that
(21:36):
darkness is not dark to God,because he's light.
He is light.
He can always shine light intothe darkest places, and so even
my darkness wasn't dark to God,and I remember just reading that
outside on my phone and I neverread Psalm 139 before.
I don't even know how I got tothat Psalm, if I was just like
(21:56):
scrolling through, but oh, Ifelt so much of his presence in
that moment where I was likethis is not dark to him.
Yes, like I'm not dark to him,he can just, you know, he can
just shine his light throughthat.
Yes, um, and that has gotten methrough so many times to know,
even when I feel dark, it's notdark to him.
(22:17):
Nothing is dark to him,everything is light, everything
is bright, and he can lead usinto that lightness.
Um, and I was thinking aboutthat this week a lot because I
was talking to a friend who, ina really dark time of her life,
she didn't feel God at all.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
And she was like oh, if I'd felt him, I would have
stayed.
But I like felt nothing.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
And I was thinking about that because I was like
man in my dark times, like Ialso have felt nothing, Like I
haven't felt this like immediateconnection, of like comfort.
And then I thought of Jesus andI was like Jesus was on the
cross, he felt abandoned, hefelt nothing.
He said where are you?
(22:59):
Exactly?
He felt the dark.
He felt totally abandoned.
Yes, but I love that Jesusturns to God, in that, in the
dark, where he doesn't feelanything.
He says where are you?
There's still this trust thatGod is there, yes, and then he
(23:20):
goes into God's presence youknow, and so I was thinking
about that because I'm like,yeah, I felt abandoned and alone
, but then always I get to comeinto God's presence in some way,
in some way, like there is somesort of light that gets me
through that.
And going back to Lord of theRings, there's this part in Lord
of the Rings.
(23:41):
Anytime we can tie it back toLord of the.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Rings Right.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
There's this part at the end where they're climbing
Mount Doom and it's all darknessand just like horrible.
Yes, actually.
I'm going to find the quote Dohorrible, yes, actually I'm
gonna find the quote.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Do it.
Find the quote, do it.
I'm ready, because I'm a fan ofsam wise gamgee.
Let's do it, just to get the.
If you're gonna quote sam, yougotta do it right.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
I gotta do it right, potato.
Oh, because this part is sogood and it just like speaks to
what we're talking about.
Okay, so this is what sam says.
They're peeping among the cloudrack above a dark tour.
High up in the mountains, samsaw a white star twinkle for a
while.
The beauty of it smote hisheart as he looked up out of the
(24:22):
forsaken land and hope returnedto him.
For, like a shaft, clear andcold, the thought pierced in the
.
In the end, the shadow was onlya small and passing thing.
There was light and high beauty, forever beyond its reach.
That's from the return of theking isn't that so beautiful?
and I just love that because Ithink that's it like in the dark
, forsaken land, there's beautybeyond our reach, right, and
(24:45):
that has always got me through.
Beauty has always called to me,like that poem that we talked
about earlier, the cheslamioletsone has always called to me,
like that poem that we talkedabout earlier, the Cheslam Yaltz
one.
It has always called to me andhas helped me return to trusting
in light and trusting in JesusBecause I think it's real, more
real than anything else I'veexperienced.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Right.
So then, what I'm getting fromour conversation that we're
having right now is peopleshould try and figure out what
language is the lord speaks tothem yeah, and then seek to find
the beauty in the world thatcan add light.
Yeah, is that my understanding?
Speaker 2 (25:19):
yes, absolutely yes and I would also say a big thing
that I've come to believe isthat we all choose what to trust
in.
No matter what world we have,we're trusting in something and
for me, I just trust in Jesusmore than anything else.
Yeah, I trust in his life, Itrust in, I trust his word, that
(25:41):
what he says he's not lying,you know like I think he's
really.
When he says that he has come toredeem, that he's come to heal,
that he has come to repair thebreach, I trust that that is
really true.
When he says he can do his ownwork, I trust that I know he can
do his work.
When he says he loves us, thatwe're his children, I trust that
(26:02):
.
I believe that that is true.
When he says he knows us, Ibelieve that I've felt that.
So I think I've just come toreally realize in my life that I
trust him more than anythingelse right, you know.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
So how do you do that ?
I guess then in the dark times,because I feel like you're
giving me this really bigcontrast, as I hear a person
testifying.
Oh my gosh, I felt the darkness.
I've been on Mount Doom, yes andthen, but at the same time,
you're like but I trust him andI have this complete faith in
him and I'm sitting here goinghow, yeah, because, honestly,
(26:37):
like, I feel like that and Ithink that's a lesson that I
know.
I'm for sure, learning I know alot of people are learning is
how, when you when you feel this, this crushing darkness.
Yeah, how can you come out ofit?
and or even while you're in itand when you come out of it say
I, I am his, yeah, he is mine,yeah, how the heck do you do
(26:58):
that like?
Speaker 2 (26:59):
I'm super.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
I think it's amazing that you're testifying of it,
because I needed to hear that ohbut now can you help us who
might be struggling with that.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
yes, oh yes, what?
Yes, what a beautiful question.
Well, there's a couple ofthings I will say.
The first thing I think is Ithink that sometimes we think,
if we are in sorrow, or if we'rein darkness or in doubt, that
that is somehow well, and thismight sound cliche, but I guess
(27:29):
I would say sometimes that feelslike we are failing in some way
, that we're failing God.
I think I've learned thatsorrow, suffering, darkness,
they can be a form of worship,and I guess what I mean is like
if you read job's story right orreading the psalms yeah, like
(27:53):
we were talking about I thinkthose are really dark stories a
lot of them, a lot of psalms,are like rough.
A lot of you know job's story,rough story yes, we're like
talking about suffering anddarkness.
That's like yeah, that's itright, but I find them to be so
worshipful because they alwaystake that to god.
(28:16):
There's still this feeling oflike I am in despair.
Where are you?
right and I guess the where areyou might feel like this failure
, but I feel like there's thisstill.
There's like this reaching out.
So when I think about JosephSmith saying like, oh God, oh
God, where are you now?
I think about Jesus saying likewhere are you?
(28:36):
Right, I think of that asworship.
There's like this reaching thehand out to being like I am
reaching for you, reach back tome, I need you.
There's this ultimate humility,there's this recognition of
like I cannot do this alone.
So when I see that in Jesus ofbeing like, this is my darkest
(28:58):
hour and I feel abandoned, rightLike, I feel alone.
So I think when we look toJesus in that way, it's like
Jesus felt that he feltabandoned, he felt darkness and
he turned it to God.
And he didn't feel God in thatmoment, but he turned it to God
and then eventually has led toGod's presence.
So I think that's a big thing,is like.
(29:20):
I think we can think of it as aform of worship when we take it
to him, even if we don't feelanything.
It's still this act of trust oflike I don't feel you at all,
but I'm gonna bring it to youanyway, right, um, and that's
not cheap like, that's like verycostly you know, like that will
(29:42):
cost you something and thatwill like bring you to a
different place of faith, right?
the other thing I think is kindof what I was saying before,
which is like we all have totrust in something.
So I think how like a verypractical thing for me was like
really looking at the otheroptions yeah of of world views
(30:02):
and cons yeah and like, really,looking at, we'll just take
atheism because it's like so youknow that's like a very intense
opposite one yes, atheism, andI was like, okay, like let's say
that is what is real right.
There is no god right, and weare here and it's okay.
(30:25):
So for me I just can't.
That has been so contrary to mylived experience of what life
is for me.
I've felt inherent meaning ineverything.
Yeah, for me, like I can'treally reduce friendship,
marriage, love, children to justevolution, like it doesn't,
(30:52):
it's just too reductionist Idon't know.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
It's like.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
This is how it is, yeah and for me I'm like that
just isn't how people live likethat's not how people act.
People don't even if you like,are like a 100 atheist.
You don't live that belief outlike.
You still act like things havemeaning.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
You still act like your relationships matter to you
and you can say, yes, it's likesoul and like the human part in
my mind yeah, atheism, kind oflike I don't want to say rejects
it yeah it rejects a lot ofthings.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Yes, yes and I just don't think people really live
that way and I haven't, I, Idon't know, I just there's too
much meaning for me and I knowpeople can say you can create
your own meaning, but that's sofragile and and it just doesn't
check out for me.
So I think, like for me, likepeople don't live that way,
(31:46):
right, right, anyway.
So I think, like for me, reallytrying to like logistically,
logistically, look at each worldview and look at the
rationalism behind them and belike okay, is this like?
does this match up?
with what I feel is is livedreality.
Yeah, um, and I think for me, Ijust like, I think it just came
(32:09):
to.
I believe that there isinherent morality.
I believe that meaning is realand also that we don't just
create it ourselves.
I believe that there is so muchagain, beauty, which I guess,
guess, yeah, people say thatwouldn't be evidence for God,
(32:29):
but I feel like it's a very goodclue.
I feel like beauty matters tome because there's no real
reason for it and it's soabundant.
This desire to create, to be inrelationship, I don't know.
All of those things to me arejust clues and I have felt so
much divinity in life that I'mlike I just that really helped
(32:53):
me hold on to at least just theidea of God at first, where I
was like no, I really feel thatthere is more, and that was kind
of impossible to take from me,just from my lived experience,
right, right, life you knowright when I think it's okay for
you, anybody or anybody yeah toreally kind of take that line
(33:16):
up online.
Precept upon precept it's okay,to step back and be like yeah
okay, let's literally, logically, and yes, cons, let's look at
okay god divinity, yes.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
This step yes, and I think that that is good and I
think that that is okay, becauseyeah, I think sometimes, when
you just kind of like try anddrink it from a fire hose yeah,
it's really overwhelming but.
I really do think that it isvery healthy to step back and,
yeah, ask the one question at atime.
Yeah, and ponder that onequestion at a time yes and I
think the spirit will testify toyou of which direction that is,
(33:49):
and that yeah, and thathonestly, that that might be for
some people maybe needing tostep away just for a little bit
and then coming back yeah forsome people that might be just
saying, okay, I'm just gonnahold on real tight and just wait
and see what happens.
You know, yes, yes, the spiritspeaks to us all differently?
Yes, but I think I think thatagain, if we circle back to the
(34:10):
learning the language that Godspeaks to you and the
appreciating beauty.
I think doing those thingsreally will help you sift and
find that meaning and find thoseanswers because, you know, it's
true, god doesn't speak to us.
All the same, yeah you know,it's true, god doesn't speak to
(34:30):
us all the same, yeah, and Ithink even just so, when you see
something beautiful, you feelthe spirit a little bit.
Yeah, and I think even that canbe that star that Sam saw on
Mount.
Doom and you're just like okay,I can keep going, we're almost
there, right?
Speaker 2 (34:42):
Yes, oh, absolutely.
And I love in the scripturesGod says like he will manifest
the truth to you.
And I think manifest is such aopen, beautiful word because
sometimes I think, growing up, Ithought, like the promise you
know of, like, oh, like, prayabout the book to you, and so I
just think that word is reallybeautiful because again, he'll
(35:11):
speak in your language and he'llmanifest it to you.
Yes, and that can look sodifferently, you know, depending
on who.
You are right, and I feel likehe's done that to me in a very
personal, in my own way.
he's manifested himself to me inways that, like he could only
do for me you know, and it'senough for me, and it might not
be for somebody else, but he canmanifest it to them in their
(35:33):
way, and that will be for themright, so right.
Like someone else might hearbeauty and think that's silly
and it doesn't manifest to them,but to me, that's how god
manifests to me and it's a waythat really speaks to me.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
So anyway, right, that's awesome.
Well, I've I've truly enjoyedour conversation.
This has been so much fun metoo.
Do you have any other thoughtsthat you would like to share
before leaving us with thetestimony?
Speaker 2 (35:56):
I will just say I guess this is kind of my
testimony, but I I feel like itis the best sacrifice ever.
I know we make that covenant ofsacrifice and I think it is so
(36:21):
important that it's one of thosecovenants that we make.
It's so just sacrifice isimportant.
So I guess too, when we'retalking about the darkness and
like and trying to hold on, Ithink sacrifice will just be a
part of faith and of followingjesus.
I mean jesus, yeah, that washis life just full of sacrifice.
(36:45):
Yes.
So if we want to follow that,there will be some of that
involved.
But I just think I wouldn't.
There's nothing I would rathersacrifice than my life to try to
follow him and I just have suchan abundance of gratitude for
(37:05):
how I have seen him in my life,such an abundance of gratitude
for how I have seen him in mylife and, and even the times I
haven't felt him there, I havefelt him through people and I
love that we call ourselves likethe body of Christ, because I
really feel God and other peopleso much and how he works
through people.
(37:26):
So times when I felt alone I wasgiven people know that like
helped me through in so manybeautiful ways and helped me
stay close to God, and so that'sanother thing I'd say is that I
think the body of Christ isreal and I'm so grateful to be
in the church for that reason,because it's real, and like
(37:46):
moving to Maine I am so I feelso comforted because I know that
I always have the body ofChrist with me, like I know I
have a family to go to there.
I know I have people that careand that are full of belief and
trying to you know right, followJesus and the way I'm trying to
(38:06):
follow Jesus.
So, anyway, but yeah, I willjust say I really do love him
and as struggling as I am and asimperfect as I am, I think it's
something that I will justwrestle.
Faith will be something Iwrestle with my whole life
because I just want to followhim the best way I can.
(38:28):
So I'm just so grateful forthis opportunity to testify of
that.
It's like such a wonderfulthing that you're doing to help
and encourage people to testifyof Christ everywhere.
It's so important and um, and Ilove.
I don't remember if you sentthis to me or if it's part of
your podcast, but you like thefirst phrase in the google if
you sent this to me or if it'spart of your podcast, but you
(38:49):
like the first phrase in theGoogle Doc you sent is that he's
the author and finisher of ourfaith, and I just have been
thinking about that phrase somuch that he is the author of
our faith.
I love that and it reminds meof there's this CS Lewis quote
where he's talking about how itwas after they had gone to the
moon and they came back and theysaid, oh, we didn't see God up
(39:12):
there.
And CS Lewis's response wassomething like oh well, if God
is there, we don't relate to him.
Like going up in an apartmentbuilding and like going up to
the third story and there he is.
If God is real, it's more likehe is the author and we're the
characters in the play and theonly way we recognize him is he
(39:32):
writes himself into the play.
Yeah, and that's how we knowhe's there.
So I was just thinking aboutthat like the author and
finisher of our faith and I'mlike he has written himself into
my story in like reallypersonal ways and I just love
that phrase because I hadn'treally thought of that like he
is the author of my faith, likehe has written himself into my
story and I'm so grateful forthat awesome.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
Well, thank you, caroline, so much for spending
this time together with me.
It's it's been wonderful.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
Oh, I've loved it.
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
You're welcome.
Thanks again for tuning intomore than coincidence
remembering Jesus Christ in yourStory.
Please follow us on socialmedia or share us with a friend.
If you have an experience you'dlike to share, feel free to
reach out tomorethancoincidencerememberhim
at gmailcom.
I can't wait to hear all of theamazing memories you all have
(40:22):
of our Savior.
See you next time.
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