Letting Christ Work His Wonders with Mark T.

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Have you ever experienced a moment so profound that it altered your perception of faith entirely? Join us on this emotional episode as Mark shares memories that forced me him reassess his belief in Christ and find solace in spirituality such as the sudden loss of his father in a car accident. We discuss finding a balance between taking personal responsibility and being an active participant in our own lives and standing back to watch God work His wonders and miracles. 

As the episode progresses, we emphasize the critical role of scriptural immersion and application in this process of seeking balance as we discuss the profound lessons hidden in biblical stories such as Uzzah and the Ark of the Covenant. Concluding with insights on maintaining spiritual discipline and the impact of consistent practices, Mark bares a heartfelt testimony of the reality of Jesus Christ and His enduring presence in our lives. Tune in for an episode that promises to uplift, challenge, and inspire your spiritual journey!

Please reach out to me if you are interested in sharing your story! I would LOVE to hear from you. :)

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hello everyone and welcome to.
More Than Coincidence,remembering Jesus Christ in your
Story as the author andfinisher of our faith, our
Savior writes personalexperiences into each of our
lives which can later strengthen, empower and bring us peace
upon reflection.
This podcast is dedicated tosharing these anchoring memories

(00:26):
from everyone's unique storiesin order to collectively
remember and testify of thereality of Jesus Christ and his
presence in our lives.
I'm your host, lily, and I'mvery excited to share these
experiences together.
Good evening everybody.
Tonight on the podcast we haveMark.
How are you doing Good?
Will you mind introducingyourself?

Speaker 3 (00:46):
Yeah, mark Thomas, I'm 54 years old, just turned 54
years old.
Happy birthday, thank you.
And I, yeah, I guess.
I guess just a little briefintroduction on who I am is is
pretty much my name, just common.
I don't stand out in crowdsjust like my name is.

(01:06):
There's probably about 554 MarkThomas's in Facebook.
I believe is the last time Isaw and so, yeah, I think
there's been some uniqueexperiences in my life that even
though I'm a common person,common name, there's some
uniqueness that comes with it aswell.

Speaker 1 (01:24):
Right, I'm really excited to hear it, so I'll ask
you the question then, mark whatmemories do you have that you
reflect on, that perk your heartand remembrance of Jesus Christ
and anchor you to him?

Speaker 3 (01:33):
Ooh, Um.
Well, I guess I've got three orfour of them, three or four
that are very significant, thatstay with me um and that I do
remember a lot very significantthat stay with me, and that I do
remember a lot.
I think the first one is I justgo really way back into must
have been about eight or nineyears old and at this time, just

(01:54):
understand where I grew up,grew up in Utah, born and raised
, and my parents were divorcedwhen I was two years old.
Oh, wow, and so kind of the jokeis that I have an older brother
and so my brother caused themarriage, then I caused it, and
so, um, anyway, she had metanother man, and so we were.

(02:16):
We're a blended family.
So I now have a stepdad, um mymother, and then me and my
brother, and so we weren't, weweren't church goers, if that
makes sense.
Yeah.
We were Mormon, we were LDSRight, I wasn't baptized, but,
just like other religions,that's just what we were born as

(02:37):
and that's what we were here,right, but rarely went to church
.
But back in those days we hadprimary, but primary was after
school, it wasn't.
It wasn't necessarily on asunday.
So, um, never really been to asacrament meeting, but sometimes
we'd go to primary on sundaysand then there was like a
primary during the week and Iremember this one specific

(02:58):
primary teacher was great and soI'd go to, I'd go to primary
with my friends and just kind oflearned the stories of Jesus
through primary.
And at one one night I was athome and there was a fire in Las
Vegas and it was on the newsand it was almost it was a
Sunday night, I think it waslike a 60 minutes TV show, but

(03:20):
they were talking about the firebecause there were no
sprinklers inside the hotel sopeople were jumping to their
death.

Speaker 1 (03:26):
Oh my gosh, that's sad.

Speaker 3 (03:28):
And this lady was speaking that they were
interviewing to and she had justmade mention about Jesus and
somehow, because of that moment,there were some dots being
connected with primary and thestories of Jesus.
And then this lady saying shesaw Jesus when she she was
jumping.
She survived the jump, but shejust said I saw Jesus, he told

(03:50):
me to jump, and so it dawned onme that these aren't just
stories.
And then it hit me that Jesuswas a real person.
And so I remember just havingthis overwhelming excitement
going hey, wait a minute, mom,mom, and I grabbed my mom and I
was like, mom, all these storieswe hear about Jesus, was there
really a Jesus in this world?

(04:12):
Like, is this a true story?
And she was smiling and a goodmom and she just said well, yeah
, what do you think?
The?
you know, if you think about ouryears, you, our years, are
right based on jesus christ soyes, there definitely was a
jesus christ that lived yeah onthis earth and I was like whoa

(04:33):
and it was that's so cool I wasjust a little kid.
I was just a little kid, but itwas just being able to really
understand that this wasn't juststories that you get told when
you go to bed at night.

Speaker 1 (04:43):
It was a right, there's something to this.

Speaker 3 (04:45):
There was a legitimate person and yeah, and
with there being a little bit alegitimate person, the impact
this legitimate person had onthe earth.
I was like this wow jesus isreal, so now you kind of parlay
that into the stories yeah nowwe're not.
We're not an active religiousfamily, so I didn't go to church
um, in fact I was.

(05:06):
I was think I was on the cuspof being a convert.

Speaker 1 (05:10):
Baptism the bishop was coming over to the house
over and over again and afterthat you're probably like, yeah,
I want to hear more storiesabout this, jesus.

Speaker 3 (05:18):
Yeah, but I honestly, I got I didn't get baptized
because of jesus.

Speaker 1 (05:22):
I got, I got baptized because all my friends were
right it looked kind of fun tohave a party and get you know.
Honestly, I feel like that'spretty much every eight-year-old
at least that's what I rememberit being like that too for me
yeah yeah, so it was like Ididn't.

Speaker 3 (05:36):
I wasn't a nine-year-old convert baptism,
but it was the month before Iturned nine that I got baptized
yeah and um, but we still didn'tgo to church or anything like
that, just just did it.
That's what your family did, andwe went to church on Christmas
and everything like that.
But during this time of of thatmoment, um, my dad so I haven't

(05:56):
talked about my dad and my stepmom my dad had met a woman and
she was very, um, I would almostsay cut from the cloth, very
cut from the cloth.
Born and raised in the churchand gospel and the principles,
yeah, and my dad was very muchnot.

Speaker 1 (06:12):
Oh interesting.

Speaker 3 (06:13):
So he had fallen in love with her.
She had fallen in love with him.
But my dad had gone to mygrandpa and said I want to turn
my life around.
I want my kids back.
Wow Cool.
And all my grandpa said is, ifyou get active in the church,
your kids will be delivered toyou.
Yeah.
And so you know, just to speedup the story, there was an event

(06:39):
that had happened on a Sundaynight again, where my mom was
driving me to go stay with mydad and she said I think this is
the time that you need to askyour dad if you can go live with
him for good wow so I said okay, and so we went up on the door.
My dad brought us in my stepmom,just so you know, um call her
mama lisa, but um, she's she's22 at the time and I'm 12 oh,

(07:02):
wow my brother's 14 yeah andshe's our stepmom, so so they've
started their family.
My brother already had livedthere they started their family
and it was me saying, hey, can Icome live with?
you yeah and my dad said well,if you come live with us, we
would love to have you, but youhave to go to church every
Sunday uh, you're like well, andI'm like, and pretty much it
was like, yeah, I'll do anything, I'll do anything.

(07:24):
So if that's what I need to doand when you're a teenager, it
wasn't that easy, yeah, but Idid get my influence there.
Right.
So this parlays into the nextstep.
So the first step was reallyjust discovering and realizing
that these aren't stories, thatJesus is real, yeah, christ is
real yeah.
The realizing that this, thesearen't stories, that jesus is

(07:47):
real.
Yeah, the next one is what Icall my delivery from egypt.
So I was delivered from egyptinto, quote-unquote, the
promised land, but there was alittle bit of a wilderness time
right and so, um, I now live ina house where I'm 12 years old
and the way the schools work,all these kids had gone to
junior high.
But I'd never been to juniorhigh.
I was in elementary, so I had alot of change and and with the

(08:10):
changes and stuff I didn'treally have any friends.
So I'd left all my friends andeverything I was comfortable
with right into this whole newarena.
Even going to church on Sundaywas was hard.
Yeah.
But part of that was they hadmutual and then you gotta go
meet people and you gotta go upto mutual and and it was
uncomfortable because I didn'treally know anybody right, and

(08:30):
so I'd go to this mutual just ina sense, not dreading it, but
just yeah, can't wait till it'sover.

Speaker 1 (08:36):
Yeah, and I'm certain like what's gonna happen there.
Right, and it's like whenyou're an awkward teenager, you
think everybody's staring at youanyway.

Speaker 3 (08:42):
No, you're absolutely right, so I found myself just
um.
There's a cut through field tothe church, um houses weren't
everywhere, there were fieldsand so I would cut through this
field every week.
I would cut through and go upto this um, go up to the church
for mutual right, and every weekthere was the.

(09:03):
The house that I'd cut by was achain link fence and there was
a mangy dog on a collar and itwould just go crazy and bark at
me yeah.
And so I was, just, I was in amoment and on this particular
day, you know, I was just reallyfeeling alone and not not sure
about anything, but really forsome reason just questioning God

(09:27):
, like I'm going to church everySunday.
Right.
I've got this mutual.
We share scriptures, right, andI know that Jesus existed, but
there's no Jesus here on earthright now, right?
So then it was more like God.
Are you real, right?
Do you exist?
Are you there?
Do you know me?
Kind of those conversations andI said because I don't know

(09:47):
anybody, I'm all alone yeah andso I'm cutting through.
And then of course, there'sthat stupid dog, and the dog's
barking at me and just pullingon that chain like he just wants
to.
He just wants to attack yeah, hejust wants to get you and I'm
looking at him, I'm like I havenever done anything to cross you
and this is just all thoughtyeah, I've never done anything

(10:09):
to cross you.
Why do you hate me so much,like why I didn't do anything to
you?
right all I want to do is justwalk by, yeah, and while the
dog's just biting at me, youknow just yelping, biting and
everything pulling, it's pullingon his neck and he pulled so
much that the dog actuallystopped and just vomits and
throws up.

Speaker 1 (10:28):
Yep Dogs are kind of dumb that way sometimes and I'm
looking at it and I'm like oh,serves him right.
Right.

Speaker 3 (10:34):
Serves him right.
And then it just paused for aminute and then just started
eating its vomit.
Oh, that's so crazy Justlapping it up and I'm like that
is the most disgusting dog I'veever seen and I just walked on,
you know, but there was in thatmoment there was.
It wasn't a kneel down prayeror anything, it was just a
thought.
More than anything, it was athought of do you exist?
Do you know me?

(10:54):
Do?
you know, that I'm struggling.
I'm supposed to go to churchevery Sunday, but I don't even
know what I'm searching for,yeah.
There's just nothing there, andso one of the things that the
young men were really good at inthis ward is you always had
prayer and scripture in a songwhen you you'd start off, so

(11:16):
kind of the boys and girls wouldget together.
You have the prayer, scriptureand song and then you either
stay together or you break offyeah, and so the boys were in
charge of the scripture, and thescripture they shared was very
telling, very interesting, whichprobably means nothing to
anybody, but it applies to mylife forever yeah so anyway,
this kid gets up smirking andhe's laughing and he says you

(11:38):
know, um like to share thisscripture and I believe it's
third nephi, chapter seven,verse eight, okay, and basically
it just says no more than fouryears have passed away since, um
, since basically they've gonefrom their righteousness back to
sinning, right like a dogreturns to its vomit and so that
that scripture, even though itmatters nothing to anybody else

(12:02):
and for them it was a smirky,funny scripture to share

Speaker 1 (12:04):
I'm like whoa you saw me I saw the dog.

Speaker 3 (12:09):
Yeah, lap up its vomit.
I come here, the scripture getsshared and you're talking about
dog.
How is that?
And all of a sudden it was justmark.
I know you, you're fine, I knowyou, so going you piece these
puzzles together.
Yeah.
And that's why I can say youknow, this is when I discovered
Jesus, right, I was in awilderness and just kind of like

(12:32):
an Egyptian, just didn't reallyknow much.
Yeah.
And then I went into awilderness.
You know was delivered.
Yep.
Went into the wilderness, andnow I'm searching for my land of
promise.
Yeah.
That type of thing.
So that had a huge impact on me.
And then, of course, um, youknow, I guess you know, just
backing up, I don't really haveany worldly things to brag about

(12:53):
.
I don't have a college degree,I'm a college dropout, I've got
hey, me too, I don't haveanything either oh, is that
right, yeah, we're the same yeahso.
So a lot of times you hearpeople get interviewed and they
just have this cool CV, thisresume, that they wrote down and
everything, and it's like youknow, my greatest title has been
grandpa.
Right.
So I don't think that I fit amold that most people are

(13:16):
looking for.
Right.
I'm just an individual.
Yeah.
So anyway, going through allthis, I did do some of the
cookie cutter things where I metmy wife in high school, went on
a mission, served my mission,had many experiences on my
mission, especially reading theBook of Mormon for the first
time.
Yeah, I didn't read scriptures,I just basically figured I'd

(13:38):
learn the church when I went ona mission when you went on a
mission and then I came home andwe started our family and I was
really taught to live thecommandments of the gospel, but
I wouldn't say that I was livinga life for Christ.
Right.
And so I still have a lot oflearning and growing to go.

(13:58):
But probably the third thingthat really woke me up is June
6th, so 6-6 of 2006.

Speaker 1 (14:08):
Oh man, that is a very auspicious date.
Yeah, you hear 6-6-6.
Ominous, I should say Ominousdate, you hear?

Speaker 3 (14:15):
6-6-6,.
You're like, okay, where is hegoing?
So, on that date, the reasonwhy I remember that date, so
well it was a beautiful day mycareer, my family, I was making
more money than we needed.
Uh, this is probably the firsttime that my wife didn't have to
work yeah and so you're like wemade it.

(14:35):
Yep, we're here, we arrived, andeverything's good and in fact
it's so good.
I'm out on the golf coursegolfing and getting paid to golf
.
Yeah, Like it was.
Yeah, it was like really goodRight.
But like the Nephites just kindof forgot my I forgot my God
forgot what I was doing this for.
Right.
More secular than you would sayspiritual Uh-huh, um.

(14:56):
And you really, to turn to God,will always be humbled.
You need to be humbled.
To turn to God, yeah, and ifyou can do it on your own, great
.
But if God wants you humbled,he'll humble you.

Speaker 1 (15:07):
Did you get hit in the head with a golf club or
something?

Speaker 3 (15:11):
No, no, While you were golfing.
No, actually I would say I gothit in the head, but it was an
unexpected hit.
We were getting ready to go.
It was a beautiful day on June6th.
Yeah, my wife called me and shesaid your Uncle Carl called and
he wants you to call him back.

(15:32):
I said, well, he's probablyjust planning the Thomas family
reunion.
Yeah.
I'll call him later.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then she called back andsaid, hey, are you alone?
And usually that means shewants to talk to me yeah my
friends around, so I always justsay, yes, I'm alone.
She said she'll just tell mewhat the business is, she go.
And I said yeah she says youcan't be alone.
Right now, somebody's beingthere and I'm like, oh, this got

(15:54):
serious yeah so what?
What had happened is my dad waskilled in a car accident.
Oh, my god, and so that changedeverything from kind of a belief
to really going through this.
I didn't get to say goodbye.
And again.
My birthday is June 12th.
So, he always calls me on mybirthday.

(16:16):
I'm not going to get a callthis time.
There were a lot of thingsgoing through my mind that, okay
, this death thing just becamereal Because in our family we
were very healthy.
So, we've never had a tragedy.
We've always had people die ofold age.
But nobody's really died in acar accident Unexpectedly right.
So an unexpected death reallyhad me feeling orphaned and what

(16:39):
am I going to do without my dad, because I could always rely on
him.
Now I'm all alone.
Right.
And not only am I all alone.
Is all this stuff that we, thatI say, I believe?

Speaker 1 (16:49):
exactly.

Speaker 3 (16:50):
You have to really think about it now really true
and um, so that's.
That was probably the thirdevent that forced me into being
in a humble state, to reallystart looking at my, my
relationship with jesus christ.
Not just do I believe in him,do I believe him right do I have
a relationship with him?

(17:11):
Exactly and um, yeah, so didyour dad ever reactivate?

Speaker 1 (17:16):
like was he?
Did he ever do what he waswanting to do and and go back to
church and like and do all thatkind of stuff?
Yeah, yeah, in fact he was in abishopric and so he, um, um,
obviously fell in love.

Speaker 4 (17:29):
Yeah, and the life that he was living in his 20s to
30s right um, I think he he hadhis taste of it, and was like
this isn't what life's about.

Speaker 3 (17:40):
I want a family, I want my kids back right, met my,
my stepmom, and she was a goodcompass.

Speaker 1 (17:46):
She was yeah.

Speaker 3 (17:47):
She was a great compass for him to where he was
reactivated.
Been in the other squirm.
Yeah, Bishop Rick, everythinglike that.
Love teaching Sunday school.

Speaker 1 (17:55):
So when he passed, do you feel like you're even your
spiritual leader, like the guyyou would look to for if you
needed something was just gone.

Speaker 3 (18:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:03):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (18:03):
Well, I mean, it was just um just my friend, you know
, I mean my, my, my father sonrelationship with my dad.
Yeah.
Um, probably not the thestereotypical father son
relationship you know he was.
He was one that um boy.

Speaker 2 (18:22):
I couldn't embarrass him with any problem or any
issue that I came with he alwayswas never.

Speaker 3 (18:28):
it was never uncomfortable, that's cool
though, so he was the type thatdidn't matter what the subject
line was.
Yeah.
He knew a way to keep itcomfortable.

Speaker 1 (18:36):
Yeah.
And so yeah, that's awesome.

Speaker 3 (18:38):
Yeah, so it was my leader, it was my dad, it was my
friend.

Speaker 1 (18:43):
Yeah, everything just gone.
It's my leader, it was my dad.

Speaker 3 (18:45):
It was my friend.
Yeah, everything just gone.
It's my safety net yeah.
You know so.
So, yeah, it was, still is, andit's been.
What, what is it?
18, 19 years now?
Yeah, so it's.
That was a turning point for me.
And then, when that happened,boy lo and behold, the job that
was really good is I'm fired.

(19:06):
So I don't have the job and haveto go through all these things
and the way that I had beenstructurally created.
My testimony was very geared onobedience versus faith, and so
I, in a sense, I almost think Ihad a really good foundation and

(19:27):
I was building this house andthe house I was building, even
though the foundation was good,the house, I didn't like the
house, and so I kind of had totear it back down to the stick
figures and rebuild.
My belief morphed,christ-centered, than
church-centered, if that makessense.

Speaker 1 (19:46):
No, it does, yeah, totally.

Speaker 3 (19:48):
So that's really where I've evolved to, and that
doesn't mean that I've by far itdoesn't mean that I've lived a
perfect life.
I've had some very, very goodstruggles.
Yeah, good struggles.
Yeah, and that would probably bemy fourth thing on my testimony
of christ is that you can'treally understand the savior if

(20:11):
you're too much of a saint, ifthat makes sense I love that.
I honestly love that okay,because where I'm going with
that is, if you don't apply theatonement, you don't know christ
exactly like yes, amen, okay,don't know Christ.
Exactly Like yes, amen, okayyeah, so fortunately I picked a
very good wife that could watchthe evolution of Mark and know

(20:34):
that if I'm taking spiritualflight, you know, don't be
nervous.
Don't be nervous, I'm inconflict and I'm seeking for
some answer and need help rightbut every time I go down this
path I know that god loves meenough that I'm gonna find
you'll find it I find my way tochrist yeah he'll put the signs

(20:56):
up, right, the signs up.
But right, you might wander fora little bit sure but you'll be
back yeah, but you, you have to,you, you really have to allow,
you have to allow yourself to touse and apply the atonement
exactly until until you haven'taccepted the fact that you are a

(21:18):
sinner.
I mean, this sounds very, um,probably evangelical and
protestant, but until you are anabsolute sinner and you know
that you are nothing withoutchrist right and you don't apply
the atonement.
How can you have a relationshipwith them?

Speaker 1 (21:35):
right, because then it's like what entire point,
what is the point at all?
He just becomes this kind offigurehead or this historical
figure.
You can't actually come to knowhim unless you have talked with
him, unless he's been able tobe there for you.

Speaker 3 (21:48):
So, yeah, 100% know your place with them and that I
think that's yeah, that's thelast, probably the last thing I
would say about my relationshipwith christ and my most really
recent spanking that I would sayI've received yeah you know,
because I I do have to bedisciplined yeah and um
refocused right, but I wasreading um in chronicles are you

(22:12):
familiar with the usa?
No, I.

Speaker 1 (22:13):
No, I'm not.
What's that?

Speaker 3 (22:15):
So Uzzah is an Israelite.
So the story is Uzzah studyingthe Ark.
Okay.
So the Israelites have the Arkof the Covenant.
Right.
And they move it in wars andstuff, but only the Levites or
the priesthood holders areallowed to do it Are allowed to
move it, touch it Exactly, andthey have to be pure and clean
to do anything with it.
And they have to be pure andclean to do anything with it.

(22:38):
So I'm reading this story andthe oxen are pulling the Ark of
the Covenant and the oxenstumble and Uzzah reaches up and
goes to help so that we don'tlose the Ark of the Covenant.

Speaker 1 (22:51):
Right, but he wasn't.
Was he clean?

Speaker 3 (22:53):
No, so God strikes him dead right there.
Oh what?
And I'm like so, as I'm readingthis and God strikes him dead,
I'm like, okay, that seemsextreme.
Seems very extreme.
Yeah, you know.

Speaker 1 (23:09):
Kind of even like ungodly, like would God really
do that?
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (23:14):
And so I spent a lot of time just kind of going.
It seems extreme.
I mean, luza had goodintentions so what, in a sense,
in my pondering and prayers?
What do I need to learn?
What is, what is this?
How?

Speaker 1 (23:28):
does this story apply to me?

Speaker 3 (23:29):
to you exactly what do I need to learn?
And um, what I gained in thatmoment is and it actually
parlays into Jonah and the well-as well.
Because I've never read theBible.
I just barely read the Bible.
Yeah, that's more than me.

Speaker 1 (23:47):
I've, like, skipped all the good parts, but I
haven't read it in between.
Yeah Well, that's the thing, isI?

Speaker 3 (23:52):
just always.
I'm the type of person that Ican criticize someone and say
look, you say that you'reChristian, but you've never read
the Bible yourself.
Right.
And then I look in the mirrorand I'm like I always act like
I've read the Bible, but I'venever read it cover to cover.
Yeah.
So I decided to read it cover tocover.
And even Jonah and the well youknow, I thought I knew the
story until I read it.
Yeah, and there's littletidbits, little nuggets that are

(24:14):
for you personally, right, soeven Jonah and the.
Well, there was one experiencethere, but I was reading these
two stories and pondering themtogether.
But the real thing was was,even though Uzzah had really
good intentions, his intentionswas really thinking he was

(24:35):
higher than God, and the reasonwhy is and I believe this is my
personal- thing, is that God hadto teach the Israelites a
lesson that God is in charge.
We're not saving God, god savesus.

(24:57):
Oh, and so Uzzah, although wethink he had good intentions.
Uzzah thought very highly ofhimself that he needed to come
in and save the ark, the arkright.
And not rely on God to let itfall or to save it.
Wow, and so my lesson in thatis that God is in charge.

(25:18):
So when we talk about conspiracytheories, and everything like
that it's all going to work outbecause God is in charge Right,
and so it's always just knowingyour place, and when you are
supposed to do something, god'sgoing to say that this is your
duty, your responsibility to do.

Speaker 1 (25:34):
Right, how did that apply to Jonah then too?
Now I'm curious.
Oh, because you were ponderingboth at the same time, you said,
yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (25:41):
So Jonah?
Obviously we all know thatJonah just didn't want to go and
preach for God.
Yeah.
And call people unto repentance.
Right.
So the whale comes, the bigfish.
Yeah.
The whale comes, eats him,swallows him he's there for
three days spits him out.
He says, fine, I'll go do itRight.
And he goes and preaches Right.

(26:02):
And God forgives the peopleanyway.

Speaker 1 (26:04):
Right, and then he's all butthurt about it.

Speaker 3 (26:06):
Yeah, so he's upset, he's upset and he's, in a sense,
sulking yeah, he's mad at dad.
He's mad at his parents sayingyeah, I knew you're gonna
forgive him anyway.
Why did?
you make me go through all ofthis right when you were gonna
do what you were gonna do, rightlike so, on one end.
On one end, it's like well, letgod handle everything because,

(26:28):
he's in charge and on the otherend, yeah you've got to be
willing to hear when he tellsyou to do something to do
something and so he's sulking.
And then you know it.
It really just seems funny.
But god grows a a plant yeah,the plant yeah, and the plant
shades him, and then he hecreates a worm that eats it, and
the plant, dies the plant dies.

(26:48):
He's back out in the sun rightand it ends.
I know it's like the story it'slike what, what does that mean?
So that's left to yourinterpretation to ponder it, and
I think what it really comesdown to is you're gonna have
good times, you're gonna havehard times and everything like
that, and god knows them yeahbut god's in charge.
God's in charge, not you.

(27:10):
You don't control this right sostop trying to control things
and go with the flow, and that'sjust even in our youth activity
we were going down the provoriver and it just dawned on me
you can paddle against thecurrent, but you got to know
that god's current is going thisway.
Just go with the current yeahand it's going to be hard.
It's going to be cold water wascold, right, but we don't live

(27:33):
in a utopia society.
We live in a society that'sgoing to be hard.
Can we be resilient.
That's about what I got.

Speaker 1 (27:40):
Wow, there's so much.
I feel like there's so much tounpack here.

Speaker 3 (27:46):
Well, let's unpack it .

Speaker 1 (27:47):
How have you personally found the balance
between letting God take thewheel and being an active
participant?
Because I feel like that'ssomething that I really struggle
with, because I lean, I errmore on the side of, well, I'm
just going to do it all, I'mgoing to do everything, and then
I will kind of make it come topass, right.

(28:10):
I'm kind of a little pridefulthat way.
But like, how do you like,really like how, how have you
been able to kind of find thatbalance between letting saying
jesus take the wheel, but oh,can I drive for a little bit
right?

Speaker 3 (28:23):
or like where do you find that balance?
What's my, what's my role?
Yeah, exactly wow, I don'tthink I have an answer well,
darn it.

Speaker 1 (28:31):
I guess you shouldn't be on this podcast.

Speaker 3 (28:33):
Yeah, yeah I shouldn't, I shouldn't be on
this podcast.
Yeah, I shouldn't be on theJust kidding, Like I guess.
I'm still trying to find thatanswer.
Yeah.
Because I think there is abalance.
But Mm-hmm.
I don't know.
My daughter gave a talkyesterday in church about
remembering Christ and thescriptures and everything like
that, and I think the realbalance is is staying connected,

(28:56):
um, like if I had to figure itout today.
Yeah, um, man, man, it's just,it's just relying on the spirit,
because there's sometimespeople will ask you things that
you aren't supposed to do, thatyou should say no to.
Right, let me put it that way.
Yeah, we can't.
Just because we say no to onething doesn't mean we're saying

(29:20):
no to everything.
You have to say no to certainthings because no means yes to
other things.
Correct.
Yes means no to other things.
So, for example, if you've gotto take care of your family
Right, and then you have afamily down the street that
needs help, yeah, right, andthen you have a family down the
street that needs help.
Yeah, are you supposed to bethe one that goes and saves that
family, or do you need to?

Speaker 1 (29:40):
stay at home.

Speaker 3 (29:41):
Stay at home, because if you say yes to save that
family, you're saying no to takegiving attention to your family
exactly but sometimes you can,it's like work yeah when is a
husband working too much andshould be in the home?
Yeah, yeah I don't know ifthere's a textbook answer.
Yeah, I think you.
I think you just know.
Um, like, I was talking to afriend one time when he gave me

(30:03):
a great answer I said what'sthat line?
it was going back to conspiracytheories yeah what's that line
the government crosses that youwill not let them cross?
Correct and he said you know, Idon't know what that line is,
but when they cross it I'll know.
And I was like boy, that wasreally, that was really
insightful for me and I thinkthat's when you go, what is the

(30:24):
balance?
you'll know when you're out ofbalance yeah you'll know when
there needs to be a fix, whenyou're out of balance, right,
but um, I just I think, goingback to the ooze the story, the
biggest thing that I've seenrecently is a lot of people are
worried about others.
Yeah, they're so worried thatsomeone's having what they call

(30:44):
faith crises or so-and-so in thefamily's going to leave the
church.
They're not going to churchanymore, they're not doing this
or they're not doing that, we'reso focused on them.
Right.
And I remember talking to afamily member saying what are
you worried about?
Yeah, and it's like because Iwant us all to be together in
the next life.
Yeah, it's.
It's understandable, yeah well,I mean, I mean it's a good,

(31:06):
it's a good goal, but it's morelike we'll make.
What makes you think we won'tbe?
Yeah you know, and again itgoes back to the ooze of thing
yeah, are you?
Are you saving them, or is Godsaving them?
Right.
What is your place?
And that's where the ooze ofthings started coming into my
life that I don't have to.
I am not the savior.
I don't have that ability.

(31:28):
Right.
I don't have the desire, okay.

Speaker 1 (31:31):
Yeah, let's just be real.
It's way above our pay grade.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (31:34):
Jesus loves people more than I do.
Yeah, you know.
So the fact of the matter ishis purpose and his mission and
his he's already accomplished it.
The atonement is infinite.
Exactly.
All you have to do is read thescriptures and you know that all
of that is taken care of.
Yeah.
But it's not on you, it's not onme.
Right, so it's not on me, right?
So maybe that's where thequestion is going with me is,

(31:57):
maybe there's people that arefeeling like it's their job to
save someone, or, you know, if Idon't do this, I remember, you
know cute little mormon tv showsor movies they did where cars
going off the cliff.
He's like oh, I didn't teachyou the gospel and all that and
you're never gonna make it tothe celestial kingdom, or
something like it was jokingly.

Speaker 1 (32:17):
Right, right right.

Speaker 3 (32:17):
But I do think a lot of people in their minds are
oozes in our church in that theythink that they're the saviors
of people.
Right.
It's not our job, right, wedon't save, we can't, we can't
save, yeah, like literally yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:31):
Well, and I think that's really interesting and
almost counterintuitive, becauseI think in the church we do
focus a lot on service and wefocus a lot, like even with
President Nelson's big 100thbirthday celebration.
It's the one right, it's the 99plus one, and I think sometimes
we forget that if we don't havethat foundation, like if we

(32:54):
don't focus on ourselves and ourrelationship with christ, how
are we supposed to be there forsomeone else?
or how, and how is christ evengoing to be able to use us if we
can't hear him or we aren't inthat, in that place where we can
testify and say I know him,right?
So, and I think that, yeah,because we're always so focused
on, oh, we have to do the allthese things with all these

(33:16):
other people and and like youwere saying, save people we
don't really focus on, well, amI saved, like, do I know my
Savior well enough to be able todo whatever he asks of me?
And I think that, honestly,that should come first rather
than, you know, go save yourneighbor, which is important,
but how can you save yourneighbor if you don't know how

(33:36):
to like, if you don't have thatskill right?
Someone's drowning and youdon't know how to swim?
Don't jump in after them, right?
Like legitimately.

Speaker 3 (33:44):
Well, that's really insightful, I think, because if
you put those analogies togetherand you jump in and you can't
swim, it's not really smart, isit?

Speaker 1 (33:56):
No, you're both drowning.

Speaker 3 (33:57):
You're both drowned yeah, so you can't save someone
from drowning if you can't swim?
Yeah, and many of us think thatthat's our job.
Yeah, they think we'll jump inand God will teach us how to
swim or will save us in theswimming.

Speaker 1 (34:11):
Right, maybe he will which he can do, he could.

Speaker 3 (34:21):
But right, maybe you will.
Which he can do.
He could, but sometimes like Idon't know.

Speaker 1 (34:22):
I feel like maybe most often than not that's not
how it goes.
But there is common sense, likeif you know if the air, if
you're in a plane, if oxygenmass comes down.

Speaker 3 (34:25):
You're always supposed to put it on you first,
right before you can helpsomeone else, right?
It's not that we don't help,it's not that we don't jump in
right but we need.
We need to be in a strong placetoo right and a secure.
We need to be on higher ground,like you.

Speaker 1 (34:37):
Don't even jump in the water with them right, you
usually throw something or do astick.

Speaker 3 (34:41):
Yeah, yeah yeah, you don't put yourself in danger
right exactly, but but yeah, thethe saving is up to the lord,
and I think that's one of thethings that I've I've just been
looking at in my own life is howmany times have I been the one
that I thought, oh, yeah.
I'm I'm a man, I've got to goand I've got to fix this right

(35:03):
and that's what I'm reallyworking on right now is yeah you
are not Clark Kent.

Speaker 1 (35:09):
Yeah, I can't, I can't look around the world.

Speaker 3 (35:11):
I'm not the superhero savior, I I'm not going to
change much Right, but I canchange me.
Yeah, through Christ.

Speaker 1 (35:20):
Yeah, and at the end of the day, you know, I think
the scripture is often, I guessyou can't can you really
overquote a scripture, I don'tknow, but the one that's like,
even if you bring one soul to me, if you are that one soul,
you're saved, like you've got it, you're there.
And I think that sometimes wealways think of that in the
missionary sense and we don'tthink about how true and

(35:43):
important it is, cause if you'reso focused on other people and
you're not, you're not withJesus, then it's kind of like,
oh well, I guess that doesn'tdidn't mean anything.

Speaker 3 (35:53):
Yeah, and you know and I and you think about, like
moms and dads, where this is.
This is real and I'm almostthinking more of a baby boom
generation.
I don't know if it's a gen xyet maybe gen x thinks this way,
but it seems like baby boomboomer parents in the church
want all their kids to beobedient and perfect and never
make a mistake right so thatthey all can get to the

(36:15):
celestial kingdom together,because how miserable would the
mother be or the father be ifso-and-so wasn't with them.
Right.
And if you just dissect that andyou take it down and you focus
on yourself and you make it acelestial kingdom.
Right.
Isn't the doctrine that youcould go visit anybody you want?
Right.

(36:35):
People just can't go up adegree.
But you can go down and visitthe other degrees.

Speaker 1 (36:40):
Honestly, I don't know all the nitty gritty in
that, but that definitely soundsdoable and nice yeah.

Speaker 3 (36:45):
Well, I think the point is is if you are saved and
you receive the glory of Christ, then heaven will be what Right
, you'll be with the people thatyou want to be with exactly so.
Let christ work it out right.
Let christ save, let christ doall the work.

(37:07):
Yeah, and and everyone needs to, and it really is is we're
either rebelling or we'rebasically and it sounds I can't
think of the right word butwe're being tied to Christ.
We're being sealed to Christ,if you will.
Exactly, we're being tied tohim.

(37:27):
So we're following him or we'rechoosing not to follow him.
Right.
And that's the real breakdown,the binary side.
You either are following him oryou're not following him.
And so that's really what Ithink is we are making that
choice right, but it's afortunately.
I've been around a long enoughto see that it's.

(37:47):
It's a long process to build arelationship with christ and
really have the strong faith,but you're gonna have it tested
right your dad's gonna die oneday and you're not gonna expect
it, and then you're gonna reallyhave to start applying.
Do I really believe thesethings?
right well, I was.
I was curious with um you know,being a young mother yeah and

(38:08):
you guys are working hard andright raising a family.
What do you fear like what?
What's your, what's yourbiggest anxiety in raising a
family right now?

Speaker 1 (38:18):
you know what?
That's a really awesomequestion and for me it really
does come back to spirituallylike not not being this in tune
and in line with the saviorenough that when he says jump, I
can say how high and I can justdo it.
That, I think, for me, has beenmy biggest and, and can my

(38:42):
family and can the rest of myfamily do that too?
You know, like I was randomlyprompted to keep my oldest home
from school and homeschool her,and I was like why?
Like I don't really want to bearound her for a long time
during the day because she and Ibutt heads a lot, and so I'm
like school sounds really nice,you know, and every single time

(39:03):
I prayed about it, the Spiritjust kept telling me she needs
to be rooted in the gospel.
If she's at school for sixhours a day, she's not going to
get that Like.
But if you homeschool her, youcan start every day with a
prayer, you can read scripturesand then you can focus all of
your education and all of thelearning in a Christ-centered
environment.

(39:23):
And that's what we've beendoing.
I've been able to do that, andcan I say that things have been
better?
No, but I feel like that ishelping to kind of ease my
conscience of the okay, well,I'm doing what I can to
spiritually prepare my child forwhatever could happen, because
I feel like that's kind of, yeah, that's my biggest fear is that

(39:45):
maybe this is a weird example,but like the spirit will prompt
everybody to gather to Zion.
And am I in a place to do that?
You know, and that's kind ofextreme.
Zion, and am I in a place to dothat?
You know, and that's kind ofextreme.
But I really do want to be ableto, to be there when Christ
says I need someone to do thisand I say here, am I send me
right?
And but it's also kind of toxicsometimes, because I'm always

(40:08):
like I'll never be spiritualenough.
Because then in that part inwithin that I want to be
spiritual enough, I get wrappedup and worried about oh well, if
I'm not perfect, if I'm notdoing all these things, if I'm
not, you know, x, y or Z, I'llnever reach.
I have to reach this imaginarystandard of spirituality in

(40:30):
order to achieve that right, inorder to like hear whatever he
says and to be able to do that,and that's something that I am
currently really trying to workon right now for me personally
and but maybe I'm weird, maybeI'm a tip I, I, I don't know if
I'm weird and not a normalaverage person in the sense that
I don't know how many peoplewould say, yeah, I really just

(40:52):
want to hear jesus in my lifeand I'm scared I can't hear him.
But that, legitimately, is myfear.
Like that, I won't be able tobe in tune enough with the
Savior to know if and when heneeds something, or if and when
people need something right.
So other than that you know,just the world catching on fire.

Speaker 3 (41:11):
Well, that's probably just a week away, Right right,
you know that's coming anyway,but yeah but like temporarily
preparing your family forwhatever comes.

Speaker 1 (41:18):
And it's weird because when it comes to and I
think this was the question thatI kind of wanted to ask you
that I couldn't remember earlier, but I feel like, as I have
been, you know, this year hasobviously been really crazy just
in the world in general and asI've been thinking about it, I
really have prayed constantlylike, okay, well, what can I do

(41:40):
to be spiritually prepared?
What can I do to be mentallyemotionally prepared?
What can I do to be temporallyprepared in case any of this
happens?
And it's been the weirdestthing, like I have been prompted
more to study in my scripturesand to spiritually root myself
than to temporally root myselfand to, and it's been weird,
like there was one time I waslike praying, I was like, really

(42:01):
, are you sure you really onlywant me to just kind of focus on
the gospel right now?
And you know, and you don't,there's nothing temporally.
You want me to prepare whileyou know we're in this insane
election year.
And the spirit was like, well,I guess I should say christ and
you know whoever answered myprayer.
And the spirit was like, well,I guess I should say Christ and
you know, whoever answered myprayer was just said okay, well,
buy diapers.
Stock up on diapers becauseyou're about to have a baby

(42:22):
Formulane diapers.
No, for reals, Buy diapers andbuy one of those tools that, in
case an earthquake happens, youcan shut off your gas.
Those are the only two things Iwas prompted, and every single
time I go back to it and I goback to it.
I'm like is there anything else?
You know, food storage,anything else like, do I need to
go buy gallon drums for water?
The spirit's like no, let's bespiritually rooted and do you

(42:44):
have enough diapers?
And I think that's the thingthat we, that I love.
When you're like when you werekind of talking about trusting
God to save but also being ableto kind of steer your own ship,
you have to really kind of sitthere and figure out okay, well,
what does he want me to do?
And then, what can I?
That, what's within my power todo, and you just do it Right.

Speaker 3 (43:05):
Yeah, so let me, um, I've got two thoughts, but I've
got, I've got a question withyou and I'm not sure which
thought to to or which vein togo down.
Um, but I think I, Okay, let'sgo with the first one.
First one is really on packingup and getting ready, and you

(43:29):
would hit something that I'mreally big on right now.
I'm ready.
And that was reading scriptures.
So why do you think God istelling you that you need to
immerse yourself in thescriptures?
Why is that the number onething?

Speaker 1 (43:41):
to you.
Yeah well, yeah well, andhonestly, I've thought about
that a lot too and I think, atleast for me, as I've been
reading through the book ofMormon, this time with not I
don't usually stick with come,follow me.
I just kind of I will eitherread where I want to read or
wherever I feel impressed toread.
I have two things have reallystuck out to me.

(44:01):
First, literally how much Jesusis in the Book of Mormon.
Like I knew he was there butreally reading through, I have
been just blown away at just theinsane testimonies and the
sacrifices of some of thesesaints in the Book of Mormon.
Like I'm obsessed with Amulek,like I love him, I love his

(44:23):
story.
He's just a hero that I reallywish I could meet in the next
life, right, like there are justso many things that the way
that they've borne theirtestimony to me about the Savior
specifically and the sacrificesthat they have made has just
really touched my heart and, Ithink, strengthened my testimony
that for whatever is about tocome, I can be like Amulek right
.
That for whatever is about tocome, I can be like Amulek right

(44:45):
.
And then the other thing thathas really stuck out to me a lot
has been the relationships andthe way people act in human
nature in the Book of Mormon.
So just kind of in a macroscale, like the pride cycle, but
on a micro level too, like eachof the Antichrists.
What were they all about?
How did they convince people todo things?

(45:07):
How, why would the, why wouldwhoever was good, whether it was
the Nephites or the Lamanites,why what would make them want to
change or turn, or what wasthat one thing that made them
start to sin more or, you know,was, and or even just like Laman
and Lemuel's personalities?
And there were just so manythings relational, wise and

(45:30):
about human nature that justreally have struck me and made
me think a lot about why, likekind of just how we're so fallen
and we're so awful and that'swhy we need a savior Right, or
even it just helps me to seethrough the lies and the
deception of what's being saidout there.

(45:51):
I love reading about theAntichrist because there were so
many things that they say thatI hear on blast right now on
loudspeakers, and it's so coolto see that in the Book of
Mormon and to know people don'tchange.
Cool to see that in the Book ofMormon and to know people don't
change the devil doesn'tnecessarily.
His tactics might kind ofchange a little bit, but the
core root of his arguments havebeen the same since the Book of
Mormon and so it's been reallyneat seeing how, for example,

(46:15):
alma and Amulek contended withZeezrom right and were able to
specifically address his pointsand yeah, it's just really stuck
out to me.
Okay, I don't know if that likeno, it did, it did like because
because it's funny, it was evenlike coherent I was.

Speaker 3 (46:31):
I was even um kora whore was the most recent one
that I just read about, and youknow his tactics of mocking.
Yeah, you know littlehalf-truths right and then out
and out lies right um, you know,you really do need to look for
those signs and symptoms ofantichrist because, right like
you said, it was before thisworld, even you know to to now.

(46:55):
This is just right there is,there is a persuasion to either
follow and choose christ yeah orto deny, reject, reject and
choose not to go with Christ.

Speaker 1 (47:07):
Well, and the thing that I love, I think it was
Khoro Hor.
I can't remember if it wasKhoro Hor and I'd have to go
back and look.
But one thing that reallystruck me it was when Ammon and
his yeah, ammon and his brothersor whoever thatman, and all the
, all his buddies, those sons ofHelaman, they were going around
and Korohor or whoever theAntichrist was at that time, he

(47:34):
went into Zarahemla and he madeZarahemla almost fall right.
These, these, these people whowere supposed to be so righteous
in the, in the Nephites.
But then when he went to theother outskirts, cities, like I
think it was theanti-Nephi-Lehites they like
grabbed him and they're like bro, get out of here.
They kicked him out of the cityand for and and his specific
arguments again, I can'tremember which Antichrist it was

(47:56):
, but his specific argumentswere basically like oh, it's
okay to sin a little.
Oh, okay to sin a little, oh,it's okay to do this.
And so it was to me the spirit.
When I read that, the spirittold me, like he was, the
nephites were looking to justifysin and they were looking to
try, and, you know, find thatwiggle room or find that little

(48:16):
area, that gray area, and hevalidated that for them and
that's why zarahemla fell.
But the other people didn't,because they were like no, we,
we like literally know christ,so get out of here, right.
So I thought, like, had thenephites known christ and not
just been maybe living like whatyou were saying, on just
obedience, but truly built onfaith, like the and and on a

(48:38):
more sure foundation, like theanti-nehi nephi lehi's were,
then maybe it would have beendifferent, maybe zararahemla
wouldn't have fallen.
They would have had to go backand like really try and convert
them again.
But yeah, no, I love, I lovethe Antichrist.
That's my favorite when theyall, when they show up and stuff
.

Speaker 3 (48:54):
Yeah, well, and it's.
It's funny too, because they'llbasically say they'll.
They'll turn to you and say youcan't believe of a surety that
Jesus Christ is resurrected andlives.
You can't, you can't, you can'tbelieve that Like there's.
You would have to show that tome for me to believe.
Right, but they're saying thesame thing.

Speaker 1 (49:14):
that we could say to them is Right, well, where's
your proof that he doesn't?

Speaker 3 (49:18):
Yeah, Where's your proof?
It's like yeah, that's whatwe're saying.
Is it's faith based?
And I think.
I think faith is a gift, becauseif we knew of a surety, Right.
In the state that we're in, wewould all be so rebellious.
Yeah, because we know ChristRight.
Faith in Christ, I think, is asecurity or a safety.

(49:38):
Yeah, in his mercy.
Yeah, exactly, but the otherquestion I was going to have for
you is how are you going torespond when you're perfectly
capable and you know you can fixsomething, but you're told not

(49:59):
to that.
It's not your time, it's notyour place, don't touch it.
Right.
Example, I was going to say yeah, give me a good example,
because I okay example, and thisis this is a little twist on
scriptures, because it's the wayI read it, not the way other
people read it right.
But when um jesus at the lastsupper is telling peter, he says

(50:19):
, hey, you're gonna deny me yeahbefore the cock crows.
You're gonna deny me and he'slike lord, I'd never do that
right, I'd never do that rightand he goes, you will and in
fact, you won't just deny meonce, you'll deny me three times
.
Yeah, and peter's just like noway.
Well, the reason why I I have adifferent take on this is

(50:42):
because then, when Judas goes tosell him to for pieces of
silver, what does Peter do?
But pulls out a sword and cutsoff the Roman soldier's ear.
He's ready to fight.
Yeah, right, yeah, jesus, saysPeter, knock it off Right, picks
up the ear, heals the ear andsays this is not the time and,
in a sense, you need to leave,so let's let's let's play that

(51:04):
back.
Right.
What if Jesus is not tellinghim?
You know, in a sense, you lackfaith in me and you're going to
deny me three times as aprophecy.
What if he's basically tellinghim and commanding him you have
to deny me so you can live.
Yeah, it's not your time to die, meaning it's not your time to

(51:27):
go with me or to fight thiscause with me Exactly.
It's your time to stay andcarry on my church.

Speaker 1 (51:33):
Yeah, that's a good question.

Speaker 3 (51:36):
What if that scenario was more played out?
As I'm commanding you andyou're going to come across
three instances where you'regoing to someone's going to ask
you and you're going to want tosay you know the Christ, but you
need to deny me three times,not?
That I'm telling you that youhave to deny him, but I'm just
saying what in your life is, isan ooze, a moment where you feel

(51:59):
like I've got to let the Lorddo this and you're perfectly
capable.
You're perfectly capable tohelp.
Yeah.
But you get the impression fromthe Lord that says back off,
that's not your place, like, areyou open to those feelings?
Because obviously I'm askingthe question because I think
about it, I think about what?

Speaker 1 (52:21):
Well, I think that that plays directly into my
greatest fear, right Of like.
I want to be there, you know,for whatever he needs, and if
that means I have to deny him inorder to live, I think I would
feel like I'm being torn in two,but I think I would probably do
it.
But yeah, wow, that's a reallygood question.

Speaker 3 (52:45):
And I think it really comes down to are we?
Are we immersed in thescriptures?
Like you said, so that we knowwhat christ has in store for us
what our job is, what we do andhow we follow not how we lead
christ, but how we follow himright when do we?
stand up and when do we standdown?
Exactly but ultimately it comesdown to, we have to be prepared

(53:07):
to be able to do both meaningyeah we can't be soft people.
We've got to be very, verystrong people right in a sense,
peter had the strength,capability and desire to cut off
a roman's ear and go yeah, forreal yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:22):
But, to have the self-control and to say yeah.

Speaker 3 (53:25):
And Christ also tells us to offer the other cheek.
Yeah.
To offer the other cheekdoesn't mean you're weak, it
means you are giving them anoffer, but they can't take it
from you.
Right.
You have to be strong enoughthat nobody can punch you.
Right.
You know that type of thing.
So that's where I'm kind ofgoing with the balance of what

(53:45):
is?
My relationship with Christ.
Know my place.
Yeah.
But Christ wants strong people.

Speaker 1 (53:51):
Exactly, you know Well, and I think that that's
where you know our covenantsthat we make in the temple of
sacrifice and consecration cometo my mind because I feel like I
have had.
I have had time and times in mylife where I've had to base.
I have had to feel like I'vehad to offer up Isaac onto the

(54:11):
altar Right, and sometimes Isaacgot burned Like I had to.
I had to give that up and totrust and to know that Christ
had me and I think that that'swhere the yeah, like you said,
like that's where the strengthcomes from, and that's that's
why it's so important for us toknow the Savior and that's so

(54:34):
important for us to be able tolook back on memories and be
able to reflect and see, kind of, how he's worked in our lives,
so that we can know, okay, well,and that this time might be
similar to that time, or I wasable to do this before I can do
this again.
Right, you know and experience,yeah, and it's it's the school

(54:58):
of hard knocks, like you're justreally, you're just trying to
go day by day, but I think, Ithink once we have that
relationship with the savior andwe're able to focus on that and
we're able to truly hear himand know him, because why would
I want to sacrifice or or dosomething for a person I don't

(55:19):
know, right.
So I think that's why it's soimportant for us right now,
especially when things arereally Shiz is just starting to
hit the fan.
Let's just say this I feel likethat's a nice way to say it, but
I really feel like that's whyit's so important for us to know
the Savior is because he isgoing to ask us each to do

(55:39):
things individually that aregoing to try us and be hard for
us, and we're going to look.
We might even look at otherpeople and be like why am I
having to do this?
And they're not.
And you have to have that faithand that strength to be able to
say you know, I know him and hehas a plan for me and and he
wouldn't ask me to do somethingthat isn't going to have purpose

(56:05):
, right, that purpose might beto put me inside of a fire and
refine me a lot, but I know, atthe end of the day, at least I
have the faith and the hope thatat the end of the day, I'm
going to be better for it and Ican give myself charity and
grace and say you know, thy willbe done, please carry me, or

(56:28):
please do whatever you have todo to help me get through this
Right.
Well, whatever that is.
So I think that that is anexcellent question that you
bring up, that we should allhonestly ask ourselves, and I'd
like to turn it on you whatwould you, would you literally
do anything that God asked youto do?

Speaker 3 (56:47):
The genuine answer is I don't know.
I don't like the genuineanswers.
I would like to say yes, yeah,but I don't know if I'm there
yet.
I don't know if my faith isthat strong yet.
Yeah.
But I would like to get therewhere no, no questions asked.
Yes, I want to have that answeryeah, I would like to say no
question yeah that's not.

(57:07):
There's no question to that.
The answer is yes, right, but Idon't know if I've gone through
the refiner's fire to know thatI would right.

Speaker 1 (57:16):
Which kind of is sad to think that.
Oh man, maybe in order to dothat, you've got to walk through
that fire first.

Speaker 3 (57:22):
Yeah, and feel the feel, the burn, to be able to
say, yeah, I'll do it, yeah I doit again think about, like you,
you think about the realitiesof what faith really is.
You know again, it's not a sure.
You don't have absolute factthat jesus christ is going to

(57:42):
save you.
Let let's put it that way,right?
And so, as you go down thisroad, you want to say well, if,
if someone told me to sacrificeIsaac on the altar.
You know that's pretty extreme.
Yeah, that's an extremesacrifice and I'd like to say,
yes, I would, but I think I'dhave a lot of doubts and
questions along the way, right,a lot of questions and doubts.

(58:04):
Like this doesn't make sense.
I mean, you're God.
Why would you tell me not tokill?
Now you're telling me to kill?
There's a lot of things thatcan go into where this doesn't
make sense.
I have a lot of questions,right?
So, yeah, I guess that's myanswers.

(58:28):
I'd like to say yes, but I don'tknow if my faith is there yet.
But I think I would say yes ona lot of things.
I think I'd say yes on a lot ofthings, but it would really
have to come down to imposters,like my belief in taking the
Lord's name in vain is that ifyou say his name, it's pretty
crass, it's pretty disrespectful.
But for me, taking the Lord'sname in vain is using the Lord's

(58:49):
name for gain, if you will.
Like I always told my daughter,I said, if you ever have
anybody that says they went tothe temple, they prayed and
you're supposed to be their wife, Run away.
Yeah, it's be careful, becausetheir own interests they're
putting God, they're puttingGod's name in their own interest
in what they want.
Yeah, so I think that would bea lot of my pause is I would

(59:10):
need to know that it's comingdirectly from Christ, like I
don't think I need a mediatorbetween me and Christ.
When it came down to, you needto do this for me.
Right, it would have to be thespirit telling me no one else.
Right, it would have to be theSpirit telling me no one else.
If someone comes to me and saysI feel really inspired that you
need to move your family toMissouri right now, I would be

(59:31):
like why?
And then you find out they havea company in Missouri and they
want you to work there, thenthat's kind of being funny.
but at the same time, just becareful that a lot of people
take the lord's name in vain fortheir own personal gain.
Right and yeah, so that's stillwhere I'm at, I think.

(59:53):
I think where I've grown and mymy testimony of christ is I
just started.
Yeah, it sounds so weird.
Yeah, because I had all these,but all these moments.
There's been many years andmany days and many experiences
of things that I forgot.
But it hit me and this isprobably the vein that I'm on

(01:00:14):
right now is the condemnationthat comes upon us from not
reading the scriptures.
So, if you look at section 84in the doctrine of covenants
basically joseph smith in histime, so this is back in the
1800s.
The church is undercondemnations because you treat
lightly the scriptures thescriptures, the gifts from god,

(01:00:35):
mainly the book of mormon rightwe have all this precious
information to have us remember,understand, know and build a
relationship with christ exactly, exactly.
And it just collects dust.
And so when I was younger, youknow in the late 80s, early 90s,
then Ezra Taft Benson said Iremember that, yeah, yeah,
because the church was stillunder condemnation.

(01:00:56):
We were still undercondemnation.

Speaker 1 (01:00:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:00:58):
My question is I have not found a prophet or apostle.

Speaker 1 (01:01:02):
That has revoked that .

Speaker 3 (01:01:04):
That has said we're no longer under condemnation
yeah.
So the warning, I think thewarning to me, not to the church
but to me right, I'm a memberof the church, but the warning
to me is how long are you goingto be under condemnation before
you're condemned?
Yeah, you know how long.
How.
How long are you going to trythe lord's patience?
Right so that's where I was,like I've got to read, I've just

(01:01:26):
got to get in the scripturesyeah and I'm not going to read
books that pull me from thescriptures.
I'm going to read books thatlead me to the scriptures right
and and so that's why I wasreally taken back by you saying
you know, the thing that I'vebeen told to prepare on is to
read the scriptures.
That's's really my message andagain, I'm not saving anybody
Right, but my message has alwaysbeen.

Speaker 1 (01:01:48):
Well from Christ to save you.
This is what he's told you.

Speaker 3 (01:01:50):
Yeah and hey, it's almost like getting in shape.
Man, you're looking good.
What are you doing?

Speaker 1 (01:01:56):
You kind of say I'm reading the scriptures.
Yeah Well, captain Moroni diet.

Speaker 3 (01:02:02):
There's something we can see a change in you.
So, using physical activity.
I was 50 pounds overweight.
This is a while ago.
I lost 50 pounds.
Congratulations yeah but I hadhelp.
I had someone who went with meand did it day by day, taught me
the discipline of it.
Right.
Really good friend and throughthat physical challenge and

(01:02:23):
everything, everything.
It just taught me that's whatyou do spiritually yeah and you
have to spiritually work out,and so people will start saying,
hey, I can tell there'ssomething different about you.
What's different about you?
Yeah and it's not that you'resaving anyone.
You can say well, I pray andread my scriptures every day
yeah and that may sound simple,they're like well, how do you do
it?
well, look, look at this app.
This will give you something toread, but make sure you ponder,

(01:02:45):
make sure you pray right.
I'm not saving anybody, I'mjust saying this is what's
helped me exactly and so I thinkI've.
I've gotten more to a pointwhere people ask I don't
necessarily be wary of givingadvice because wise men don't
need it, fools won't heed it,yeah, but but when people notice
a difference and you get inconversation, you can talk to

(01:03:06):
them.
Right.
But you're not going to forcethem to do anything.
Yeah, we're all on our ownjourney.
We all have our own sins andwhen we don't want anyone to
justify or gratify their sins,if you will.
Right, that's a rebellion, butGod knows that we're weak men,
yeah.
So I just love what DesmondTutu said as well.

(01:03:29):
This is another one that reallyhit me like a ton of bricks.
Yeah, and that is, let me seeif I can remember right.
I think we'll be surprised atwho we see in heaven.
God has a soft spot for thesinner.
His standards are quite low,and I think that's really again

(01:03:51):
going back to know your place.
Right.
Know that you can't, you knowyou can't do anything without
Christ.
Yeah.
And so you've got to build arelationship with Christ to be
saved Right and to be counted asone of his.
And to build a relationshipwith christ to be saved right
and to be, um, counted as one ofhis and to be a sheep, yeah.
So he, he'll give us abilitiesto be strong and powerful, and

(01:04:14):
we will be strong and powerful,but we'll have to know how to
sheathe our, our swords that'sthe hardest part for me.

Speaker 1 (01:04:20):
Yeah, I just want to go fight yeah, me too, I want to
go do like I want to, yeah it'slike.

Speaker 3 (01:04:24):
It's like someone, just someone, whenever you know
we write at noon.
Okay, let's go let's go, let'sgo, let's go now.
But at the same time, it's soeasy to say we write at noon,
then you get up there, just justlike we were talking about
hiking.
Yeah, you get up there, and ifyou haven't practiced, you're
not ready.
Yeah, and so right now it'sreading the scriptures and
getting ready and being prepared, right, and then I think I

(01:04:47):
think if we do that and we havea relation with christ, then
we're not so, we're not soanxious, everything is yeah
again, god's in control yeah godsaves.
God does this right we justlisten to a spirit and follow
yeah, and you make it sound soeasy it's not, it's not and

(01:05:09):
that's that's.

Speaker 1 (01:05:10):
That's probably what's really funny is yeah,
words like the irony ofeverything words are easy.

Speaker 3 (01:05:15):
It's the application that's hard yeah you know?
And so again, kind of likeproverbs and psalms, one speaks
to the head, the other speaks tothe heart.
Right, you know, you, you've gotto have both you've got to be
have that common sense, buty'all have to Kind of like
Proverbs and Psalms one speaksto the head, the other speaks to
the heart, right, you know,you've got to have both, you've
got to have that common sense,but you all have to have that
feeling.
But in the end it's work, right, you just have to be willing to

(01:05:37):
work and make mistakes, mm-hmm,you know, because if you don't
practice and I think that'sreally where we're at right now
is god's just saying get to work, get to practice exactly
practice every day.
Yeah, then you'll be ready,right.
But if we're right at noontoday and I'm not ready, I'm I'm
making it 30 minutes yeah,exactly, exactly it's not gonna

(01:05:59):
be.
I'm not gonna make it a fullday exactly, exactly, man, I
love that.

Speaker 1 (01:06:03):
Well, I don't necessarily have any other
thoughts or anything coming tomy mind right now, or any other
questions.
So if you don't have any otherfinal thoughts, would you mind
just bring a testimony for us?

Speaker 3 (01:06:14):
um, sure, sure, uh, okay, so for me, really, really,
I think it finishes with how Istarted um, you know, my, my, my
name, mark christopher thomas.
It's three first names.

(01:06:35):
They're very common names.
I'm just, I'm just a common joe, nothing, nothing like a donald
trump or anything that justgets so much no right here.
He's known for this, he's knownfor that or anything like that.
I'm just just a guy, andsomewhere, by being just a guy,

(01:06:55):
I have learned how much valuethe Lord has for me through my
experiences.
And so, even though I'm anobody and nothing, that keeps
me grounded, it keeps my, mynose down but my chin up because
I'm a child of god.
I've told, um shelly, my wife.
I just basically one day wassitting with her saying you know

(01:07:16):
, one day I hope to actually seeangels.
You know, like you're readingthe scripture, I'm like I really
want to see an angel, and she'sa lot of fun.

Speaker 2 (01:07:24):
She jokingly says who do you think me all the time?
Yeah, wow, that's funny.
That would have been reallyfunny she said no, she just
looked at me.

Speaker 3 (01:07:32):
She goes.
Who do you think you are?
You know, and I even betteryeah, and I said and I not that
I got offended by it, but itjust I quit.
It was kind of like quips backI, I just said I'm a child of
God and you know if, basically,these people that were sinners

(01:07:52):
can have these great experiencesand be converted and see Christ
you know why can't I?
You know I should be, I shouldhave that, and that goes back to
me going that's the great thingabout faith is I'm probably not
ready, right, and if I saw thatI'd be at a higher
accountability level than justusing my faith.
So, um, as far as my faith, Ido know that it it is growing

(01:08:17):
and I'm working on it, and Iknow that I need to read my
scriptures so that I can get outof the combination, know that I
need to read my scriptures sothat I can get out of the
condemnation of the Lord, yeah,but I know the Lord, um the, the
Lord loves everyone.
But I do believe, because of myexperiences, not only does he
love everyone, he knows everyone, right, which is really kind of
a hard thing to understand.

(01:08:37):
How can one being knoweverything?

Speaker 1 (01:08:41):
Seems really overwhelming it is.

Speaker 3 (01:08:43):
It is, but, but you know, you know, I believe it, I
believe it and I do believe thatthe atonement is infinite and I
do believe that everything willbe righted in the end and that
I think a lot of us are amped upin angst on the gospel because

(01:09:05):
we don't really know it, eventhough we've grown up in it and
have these little differentsides.
There is just like in the Bookof Mormon, there are traditions
of our fathers that are notdoctrine, and so it's being able
to read through thesescriptures and see the same
things that have happened on toreally again get one with Christ
.
And that's really what Itestify is that I do believe

(01:09:33):
that Jesus Christ is real, but Ialso believe Christ and I work
every day to basically believeHim more and more.
Yeah, if that makes sense.
So it's not a perfect belief,but I'm on the pathway of it,
getting stronger and applying itin my life, not just again, not

(01:09:55):
using words, but just yeah.
Hopefully people watch me andthey see my testimony.
They don't have to hear mytestimony.

Speaker 1 (01:10:02):
Right, right.
Well, thank you so much foryour time tonight.
You have given me a lot tothink about and it's been it's
been a pleasure, so thank you somuch.

Speaker 3 (01:10:10):
Well, thank you, it's been, uh, it's been.
Actually I could say the same,just ditto right back.
So thanks for the opportunity.

Speaker 1 (01:10:17):
Hey, no worries.
Thanks again for tuning intomore than coincidence
Coincidence, Remembering JesusChrist in your Story.
Please follow us on socialmedia or share us with a friend.
If you have an experience you'dlike to share, feel free to
reach out tomorethancoincidencerememberhim
at gmailcom.
I can't wait to hear all of theamazing memories you all have

(01:10:40):
of our Savior.
See you next time.