July 28, 2024 • 43 mins
How does a meticulous planner end up getting engaged just one week after a first date? Cindy Madsen joins us in this episode of "More Than Coincidence" to share her extraordinary journey of faith, including her whirlwind romance that defied her usual cautious nature as well as her current experience earning an advanced degree in theology at Calvin University.
Cindy’s incredible testimony of the necessity for unity among Christians despite theological differences could not be more timely and needed as it is today! Through engaging conversations, we discuss how understanding various denominations can enhance personal faith and foster a cohesive Christian community. Cindy then concludes with her heartfelt testimony about the reality and presence of our Father in Heaven and Savior as well as the unity we will feel as we do our best to navigate theological differences with love and respect.
Join us for an enriching discussion that underscores the importance of listening, love, and unity in our spiritual journeys!
Cindy’s incredible testimony of the necessity for unity among Christians despite theological differences could not be more timely and needed as it is today! Through engaging conversations, we discuss how understanding various denominations can enhance personal faith and foster a cohesive Christian community. Cindy then concludes with her heartfelt testimony about the reality and presence of our Father in Heaven and Savior as well as the unity we will feel as we do our best to navigate theological differences with love and respect.
Join us for an enriching discussion that underscores the importance of listening, love, and unity in our spiritual journeys!
Please reach out to me if you are interested in sharing your story! I would LOVE to hear from you. :)
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hello everyone and welcome to.
More Than Coincidence,remembering Jesus Christ in your
Story as the author andfinisher of our faith, our
Savior writes personalexperiences into each of our
lives which can later strengthen, empower and bring us peace
upon reflection.
This podcast is dedicated tosharing these anchoring memories
(00:26):
from everyone's unique storiesin order to collectively
remember and testify of thereality of Jesus Christ and his
presence in our lives.
I'm your host, lily, and I'mvery excited to share these
experiences together.
Okay, good evening everybody.
Tonight we have Cindy on thepodcast with us.
How are you, cindy?
I am great.
(00:46):
How are you?
I'm doing really good.
I've really enjoyed sittingtalking to you and getting to
know you before we interviewedso fun.
So would you mind introducingyourself to everybody?
Sure.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
So my name is Cindy Madsen.
I am a wife, a mom, a grandma.
I am a wife, a mom, a grandma,and I am a convert to the Church
of Jesus Christ of Latter-daySaints.
I love Jesus, me too.
I'm so grateful for him and I'mjust excited to be on this
(01:23):
podcast with you.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Well, I am too.
We've had a really fun timechatting, so I can't wait to
hear what story you have.
So I'll just ask you, Cindy um,what memories do you have in
your life that you reflect on,that prick your heart and
remembrance of Jesus Christ andanchor you to him?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
So, as I've thought about this, I have two different
experiences that I wanted toshare with you, that both that
are different.
They kind of I thought maybeshowed a different way that
Jesus would work in our lives.
Yeah, and the first one waswhen I became engaged to my
(02:03):
husband and married him.
When I became engaged to myhusband and married him.
So our marriage story is we metin a modern British literature
class at BYU Wonderful.
We knew each other for a monthand he asked me out, and one
week after our first date we gotengaged.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Oh, my goodness.
Yes, that's what most peoplesay, right, but do I say, is
that typical of BYU?
I don't know.
It's one of the fastest onesI've ever heard.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
I will tell you, this was what was interesting.
When I met him, I knew thatthere was something about him
that I just loved and I shouldback up, so I will be honest
with you.
His dad was a professor at BYU.
His dad was Truman Madsen.
I had taken a class from hisdad and I just thought his dad
(02:53):
was amazing.
And so when I met him, Ithought you know what, If he is
anywhere near as wonderful ashis dad, I want to get to know
him.
Yeah, and so I did.
And so we.
He asked me out, um, after we'dkind of gotten to know each
other for a month and we wentout and I just, I mean, we had
so much fun, it was like talkingto an old friend some right,
(03:17):
yes, somebody that I had justpicked up the friendship after
we hadn't talked for a while andwe had so much to talk about.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
It's so cool when that happens with any
relationship.
Yes, when you're just like, wejust click.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yes, like it's just it's special and I can talk a
lot.
You know that because youtalked to me.
Yeah, he can out talk me.
Oh, really, I had never metanybody that could do that, oh.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
I know That'd be refreshing.
My husband like doesn't talk,so I wonder what that would be
like being married to someonewho talks a lot.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
So you know what?
It's funny because I amprobably and he would tell you
this too I'm like the leastspontaneous person that there is
.
I plan, everything from like mygrocery list and menus to where
we're going to go on vacation.
What I'm going to do, you knowthe five-year plan all of this I
plan everything, yeah, and Itold him when we got married I'm
(04:13):
like you can surprise me, butyou have to tell me that you're
going to surprise me so I canlike get my head around this and
yes, but that's hilarious.
We after it was so we went on.
Yeah, it was one week, and sowe'd finally we got on, went on
the state a week after our firstdate.
We'd seen each other every dayand had gone out and we were
(04:35):
just talking about, about things, and and and, and it just kind
of gradually led up to myhusband saying, well, I think I
think we should get married.
And I said I think we shouldtoo, and I knew that was the
right thing.
Yeah, like that was.
I knew it was, you could justfeel it.
And it was 42 years later.
It was the right thing, yeah,so I was 20 years old and I A
(04:59):
youngin.
I was a youngin and it was thebest decision I have ever made,
but it was God directly speakingto me, interesting, letting me
know I mean I didn't hear avoice or anything, right, but
this very, very, very strongfeeling that this was the right
thing to do.
Right, and it was the rightthing to do.
(05:21):
And it was very out ofcharacter for me, really,
because it happened so fast andbecause it was just like okay,
yes let's do this Literally thatnight we should get married.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Yes, we should.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
But you felt the peace.
I knew it was right.
Yeah, I knew it was right.
Yeah, wow, yeah, yeah, that'sso cool and that that, that
experience um it was unique inmy life.
So that is not normally how Ihave felt Right, God speaking to
(05:55):
me that that is not normal forme.
That was a very definite.
This is right.
This is what you need to do itright and I did and you know
that was.
Thankfully it paid off and itdid I met your grand babies.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
They're so cute.
They're lovely.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Yes so, um, yeah.
So, so that was a was a verydifferent kind, and now I want
to tell you another one that ismuch more normal.
Okay, so in my patriarchalblessing it says this the Lord
will prepare the way for youthat you will be able to have
(06:35):
advanced schooling.
And then I'm going to stopright there and I'll read a
little bit more later.
So I've always known like thatwas in my patriarchal blessing
and I did my undergraduatedegree, um, like I said at BYU,
yeah, um, and then, and we gotmarried- and.
I was only two years into it andright, so you finished and I.
So I finished, yeah, um, and I.
(06:57):
Literally I was walking acrossthe stage three weeks before my
second child was born.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Oh, oh my gosh To get my diploma, that's insane.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
So I did it right.
I got it done.
I did it because that wasreally important to me, Right To
get that degree and I hadalways thought I would go on and
do graduate work.
But you know, I had the babies,my babies, my kids, and my
husband got a law degree at BYUand then went into the military,
(07:28):
into the JAG.
And we traveled and you know,there just wasn't, it wasn't the
right time.
There was no online schoolingeither no, and there just wasn't
the opportunity.
I ended up.
We moved to England.
My kids went to this amazingBritish school.
I loved it.
We came back to the UnitedStates.
I just wasn't as happy with theschool we were with.
(07:50):
I ended up.
I had a neighbor whohomeschooled.
I ended up homes know, my kidsstarted getting married.
My oldest son got married andwhen it was time for their child
(08:11):
to start preschool, mydaughter-in-law asked if I would
start a preschool and I saidsure, because she knew I'd
homeschool the kids.
So I did.
I did a preschool for her,which organically grew into this
.
Yeah, so I did a waldorfpreschool for eight years and
then covet hit, and and and itwas and I had.
(08:32):
I had kind of been feeling likeit was getting to be time to
stop doing that and I'd beenfeeling these nudgings that it
maybe was time to pursuegraduate work.
Okay, right.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
But you're like but it's COVID.
Like how the heck am I supposedto go to school with COVID
Right?
Speaker 2 (08:49):
And also like is that wise to do it this time, right,
I mean, would I recoup theamount of money we put into
graduate work?
Exactly Did God mean when hesaid that I would receive
advanced schooling?
Was that just my undergraduateschooling, right, right?
Speaker 1 (09:05):
he said that I would receive advanced schooling.
Well, was that just myundergraduate schooling?
Right, right.
What does this mean?
Yeah, where do I go?
What does it mean?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (09:09):
And these were very just, these gentle nudgings, and
I am reminded of Elijah, whenhe was fleeing from Jezebel,
queen Jezebel, who was trying tokill him, and so he went to
Mount Sinai and found a cave,and he hid in it and the Lord
(09:29):
told him to go up to the top ofthe mountain where he could
speak to him.
So that's total temple, templetext, temple ideas there, right,
and so he did and it talksabout that.
The Lord, you know he came.
You know the Lord, you know hecame.
You know the Lord passed by him.
There was a great earthquake,there was a great fire.
There was a great wind, right.
The Lord wasn't any of thosethings.
(09:51):
And then you think, likethere's like this pause, right,
and you can imagine he is out inthe desert, there is this
fragile stillness, and then theLord speaks, right, and it's in
this still small voice, andmaybe that's why he could hear
him right, because everythingwas quiet.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
It was quiet now, yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
You know, but you can imagine that right, this desert
quiet and this quietness of thevoice right.
Right, just very quiet.
That is usually more how I feelGod, yeah, very quietly, and
that was how it was in thissituation, and I talked it over
with my husband and he was, hejust was.
You know, you should do this.
(10:33):
It doesn't matter if you quoteunquote do anything with this
degree.
Yeah, if you feel that this iswhat God is nudging you to do,
like you should do it.
Feel that this is what God isnudging you to do, like, yeah,
you should do it, you should dothis.
And so I did.
I decided it was yeah, we'regonna shut the preschool down.
Covid was.
It was tricky, everybody had somany expectations anyway.
(10:54):
Right, so I did.
And um, and everything hadclosed.
So might as well take a breakright, and so I just started
thinking about where, and I knewand this is where things had
changed over the years that Iwanted to go to either a
divinity school or a seminary ofsome sort, Right To do a degree
(11:16):
in theologies yeah, eitherbiblical history or theology,
and so and I really particularlyfocused on the Old Testament,
which is my love that was reallywhere I were, the area of that
I really wanted to study, but Ialso knew that it would be
fairly easy for me to get into amore liberal seminary as an LDS
(11:41):
person.
As an LDS person, no judgment Imean.
Every school can choose whothey want to go to Exactly yeah.
But I knew I wanted to go to amore conservative school and
that might be difficult, but thereason was because I wanted my
professors to be believers,really committed to Jesus, to
(12:02):
God, to the Bible Right, and soI did.
So I applied to severaldifferent seminaries that I
thought might be more ecumenical, right, and was turned down by
several because of theologicaldifferences, which totally
understand, and that's fine,yeah, but one of the seminaries
(12:23):
that I had applied to was CalvinTheological Seminary.
Yeah, and I applied therebecause they're in Grand Rapids,
michigan, and Grand Rapids is areally interesting place
because it's very Christian.
It's.
It's the home of the threebiggest Christian publishing
houses.
Are there Baker Books,zondervan and Erdman?
Yeah, they're all there.
But the big reason I wanted toapply was because my dad grew up
(12:49):
on a farm in St John's,michigan it's about an hour and
a half away from Grand Rapids,and I am a convert, as I said,
to the Church of Jesus Christ ofLatter-day Saints, and so none
of my relatives are members ofthe church and I I mean, we're
friends, but I live in Utah,they're in Michigan.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
It's just so far away .
Yeah, this will give you achance to go be with them.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Exactly, exactly I knew that I could do that you
know yeah and um, but I didn'tthink I would get into Calvin
because they are a conservativeChristian school.
But, bless their hearts, I wouldget into Calvin because they
are a conservative Christianschool.
Yeah, but bless their hearts,they took a chance on me and
they applied.
I mean, they accepted me, yeah,and it has been wonderful
(13:35):
Really, this amazing experience,right, and I have met the most
amazing Christian friends.
Yes, most amazing Christianfriends, yes, I have had amazing
professors who are so godly,yes, so good, and know so much,
yes, and I have learned so muchfrom them.
(13:55):
So I just want to read a littlebit more about from my blessing
, and it says this.
It says so.
I will.
I'll just start again.
The Lord will prepare the wayfor you that you will be able to
have advanced schooling.
I bless you that you will seekand desire the opportunity to
associate with peers during thiseducational opportunity that
you will have, which willstrengthen you and build up and
(14:18):
build.
Build you up and prepare youfor the mission that you have
upon the earth.
It will be in this environmentthat the Lord will bear witness
to your soul in even morepowerful ways, of the divinity
of the mission of the Church ofJesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints, and of Jesus Christ andof the great work that he did in
providing salvation for thesouls of men.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
That's so prophetic, holy cow.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Right.
Oh my gosh, because that iswhat has happened.
Yes, I have learned so muchabout the Savior Right and from
people who love him.
Yes, there may be nuanceddifferences that we have Right.
There may be theologicaldifferences, but their love for
(15:06):
Jesus Christ has profoundlydeepened my love and I am so
grateful for them.
I am so grateful for what theyhave taught me about the Savior,
what they've taught me aboutI've always loved the Bible.
What they've taught me aboutI've always loved the Bible, but
I love it even more because oftheir love and what they've
(15:30):
taught me, and so I just feellike, uh, that part of my
blessing that was given to mehas, for me, completely from God
, has been fulfilled.
But it took effort on my parttoo, right, right, do you
(15:52):
understand what I'm saying,right?
So I feel like God will nudgeyou in these quiet ways.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
And if you act on those things, and if you try to
fulfill these little whisperings, these little, the little,
still small voice, the thingsthat you hear, he will bless you
in that.
And if your blessing, yourpatriarchal blessing, says
things, if you work to try tofulfill it in whatever way you
(16:21):
think is right, if it is right,the Lord will open things up.
Yes, exactly.
So I think, yeah, that thatthat was so important to me to
see that there are differences,and I think oftentimes it can be
hard in this world that we livein, agreed.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
It is loud.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Yeah, it is full of distractions.
Right, it is hard to slow down,to be still to hear, still
enough to hear the voice of theLord.
Right, that time, during COVID,when everything did slow down,
(17:02):
it forced me to stop enough.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Yeah Right, too bad it took a pandemic for us to all
be still.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Right, it's not that I hadn't kind of started feeling
nudgings that maybe it was timeto switch gears.
Kind of started feelingnudgings that maybe it was time
to switch gears, but wheneverything shut down Right, it
really made me stop long enoughbecause of the busyness.
Yeah, it was such a part of mylife and is again yeah, when we
don't, it's like natural to us.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
We don't understand what stillness versus busyness
is, because it's just what we do.
It's what we do.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Yeah, and our American culture really, I agree
really promotes this.
Yeah, we're way too fast paced.
Sometimes we get our validationfrom how productive we are.
That's me.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
I'm guilty, we all are, because that's what our
culture tells us is valid,that's what our culture tells us
is right is how you get yourworth, how busy or how
productive.
What are you producing?
Right, right, right.
But we, we slowed down enoughso that I could just stop for a
little bit and hear this.
So I had to.
So, once I'd made the decision,um, and and and was deciding
(18:15):
who to send things out, who whoto send out applications.
Yeah, then, at that point, youstarted to, I started to have
people getting back to me andyou do interviews and things
like that, and I think what washardest for me.
And so here's the next thing isthat I, when I did join the
church, there was a lot ofopposition from one of my, from
(18:37):
my grandparent on my mother'sside, and, and I think because
of that I I've always been alittle more reserved about my
belief.
Yeah, just a little morehesitant.
I think, yeah, never quite surehow anybody would react.
And, um, and this processcaused me, you had to put
(19:00):
yourself out there.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
I had to put myself out there.
You had to defend everything.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Probably, too, I did, and I also had to just state
what I was to people who may notfeel good about that, and
that's okay, but you know, right.
So I feel like that was theLord also really stretching me
to say you know, come on,girlfriend, you have got to step
it up here.
(19:23):
You have got to just putyourself out for me and for the
Savior.
You have got to yes, not that I, I mean within my own sphere of
my congregation- my, you knowmy church I very much am this is
literally going out of yourcomfort zone, out of my.
You are doing my congregation,my.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
You know my church I very much am this is literally
going out of your comfort zone,of my comfort zone, yeah,
completely right out of mycomfort.
And not only that, it's likeyou're paying.
You're going to try payingmoney to be here and to like
spend a lot of time with thisright, so I think's that's
really daunting.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
It was daunting, yeah it was yeah, so in my school I
do it's a hybrid program and soI do it online but I also go
back every semester in person todo intensive classes.
Yeah, and so the first timethat I was going to go back, it
was nerve wracking for me.
In fact, my daughter-in-law,the day before we flew out, she
(20:22):
said I can't.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
She'd come over and she said you look like a deer in
the headlights who's about tothrow up, and I said that's how
I feel.
Pretty accurate, that was how Ifeel.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
So when I went back there in one of my classes he
was going through and having usintroduce ourselves and he said
you know, give your name, whereyou're from, a little bit about
you, Right, and if you wouldlike share what religious
denomination you are.
Now the school that I go to,Calvin Theological Seminary, is
(20:50):
church.
It's CRC, so Christian ReformedChurch, yes, and so most of the
people were Christian Reformedor American Reformed.
There were a couple that werePentecostal.
And then they get to me and myinitial thought, when he had
said this I'm not going to saywhat I am, I am not that brave.
(21:11):
But by this time everybody hadnot only told about themselves,
but they also told whatreligious denomination they were
Right.
So I said well, I am a memberof the Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints, so I am theresident heretic in the room.
What did they say?
Every LDS person I talked tolaughs.
(21:31):
There was a shocked silence.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
but I thought well, we'll get it out there.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
And you know what, afterwards this man who has
become a sweet friend, eric, hecame up to me.
He said that was so brave ofyou.
And he said I am so gratefulthat you are here.
We need you.
Right, and that is what I foundand and I feel like I need them
too.
Yes, we need to pull together,and I think, as Christians, we
(22:02):
have all found that we have topull together or we will fall
together.
Yes, and I say that for themand for us Right, we need each
other.
We need each other and I see agathering happening.
The Lord is gathering hispeople, yes, who believe in his
son.
He is bringing us together.
I have seen that happening.
(22:22):
I see an openness andacknowledgement that there are
theological differences, oftenprofound theological differences
.
Right, and that's okay.
Right, we can hold hands, yeah,you know, and we can accept
that the differences are there.
That's why we have two handsright one to say that we're the
(22:43):
same and one to say that we'redifferent, and we can reach
across the aisle and we can grabhands yes, and we can work
together to promote or I don'tknow how you want to say it, but
to declare j Christ.
I think that's the way to say it.
Correct, we can work together.
Correct, we can, we can talkabout our savior, yes, so that
(23:07):
that in that way, my testimonyof him Right has grown
tremendously Right.
My testimony of my religiousdenomination also has.
So I feel like in that way, Ihave been blessed.
I have been blessed to havethis quiet voice telling me an
(23:34):
important thing and I listenedto it.
I faced a lot of fears Right,and I was stretched and have
been stretched.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Yeah, and we'll continue to be stretched
continue to be stretched becauseyou're not done.
You have one semester left.
We're almost there, but yes,yeah and um, yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
And then at that point, yeah, you asked earlier
what, what do I, what do I wantto do with this degree?
When we were talking earlierand now here is the thing I'm
waiting.
I'm waiting again because Iknow that the Lord will start
moving me in the direction thathe wants me to go.
(24:11):
He did this for me I needed togrow, but he did it for himself
too.
There are things that I willneed to do.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Well, and even when you and I were talking earlier,
I did have the distinct thoughtof you know, we need people who
can understand, who can, whohave spent the time, because
they love it, to learn aboutthese other denominations and
these other branches ofChristianity, so that when the
physical gathering happens,you're like, oh yeah, let's sit
and talk about this.
(24:39):
I know exactly like, and youand you can even then help
educate me who?
I don't know any of that rightnow and you can sit and lead.
You're telling me about how youwant to do these Bible studies.
You can sit and we can do Biblestudies together and you
literally can be that bridgethat the Lord can use and that,
like, I don't know, I don't knowif that's what he's officially
going to use you for, butpersonally, when you were
(25:00):
telling me that, that was thethought, I was like, oh my gosh,
cindy's going to be a bridge.
That is my hope, right, she'sgoing to help.
That is my hope.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Because I have had people very conscious that I am
a guest at their table.
Yes, they have graciouslyinvited me into their home and
so if people ask me questions, Iam happy to share Right, but
I'm not there to convert thatschool.
I am there to listen and learnExactly, and that has been a
(25:40):
really very important to me andit has been at least for me,
that has been the best way to dothings and I've had so much fun
learning about my friends.
What do you believe?
How you know, how do you work?
How does how does God speak toyou?
(26:03):
Right, right, I know how hespeaks to me.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
Yeah, I know how he speaks or even like how we've
been taught, like the burning inthe bosom or the.
You know the ways that we kindof frame it within LDS culture
and LDS doctrine and stuff tohear it described in a different
way from a different person, I,or I should say like a
different religion ordenomination, that that's cool.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
It really is, because I've learned a lot of things, I
think, as far as how, how doyou hear god?
Yeah, sometimes that can bereally difficult for us as lds
people, right, because I thinkwhen you say like a burning in
the bosom, so I mean, well, I'venever felt that way.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
That's just heartburn .
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Yeah, right, what does that mean?
I know what is it.
The thing I have learned themost is that God has already
spoken to us.
In fact, we have severalthousand pages of scripture
where his word is there so often.
If you want to hear God, mybiggest piece of advice would be
go open your scriptures.
Yeah, is there, yeah, so often.
(27:00):
If you want to hear God, mybiggest piece of advice would be
go open your scriptures.
Yeah, read it, because he isspeaking to you right there.
Yeah, if you have some sort ofa, some kind of inspiration you
feel is coming from God, go openup your scriptures and make
sure it lines up with that.
Very cool If it's lining upwith the scriptures.
If it's lining up with the wordof God, go open up your
(27:21):
scriptures and make sure itlines up with that.
Very cool If it's lining upwith the scriptures.
If it's lining up with the wordof God, then you can be pretty
sure that's God speaking to you.
If it's something that isnowhere in the scriptures,
that's probably not coming fromGod.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
Right, well.
And I think when we say that,we also mean like, not that
God's going to tell you in thescriptures, go to this bible
college.
But he's gonna say we know that, we know in the scriptures it
says all good things come fromgod, right, right.
And so you?
Then you have to sit and ponderokay, is this a good thing?
Speaker 2 (27:48):
is it, is it is it?
Speaker 1 (27:50):
am I keeping my covenant still?
Is it allowing me to still?
Speaker 2 (27:52):
do these things and then you.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
You then you can make that decision of, yes, this is
right or no, this, this isn'tright.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
You know, yeah, is this good?
Is it true, right, exactly,correct.
So I think those things areimportant and that is something
I think I've learned.
Yeah, more, yeah, to understand.
Wait a minute, you know what?
I can hear him really well byjust opening up and reading the
scriptures, that's amazing, so Ireally love that.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
You keep talking about, you know, unity within
God's people, within believersof Christ, and you and I were
talking earlier about how theworld is divided in so many ways
and how even the media andeverybody is making us feel like
Christians are outdated or thatany you know, any kind of
religion is not needed, all ofthat stuff and we just keep
(28:41):
seeing this division betweenchurches and between everybody
in general.
But you've had this amazingopportunity to really unite and
learn skills and haveexperiences when it comes to
uniting and reach, extendingboth hands.
So what do you think?
Or I should say, what has thespirit and what has taught?
Has Christ taught you aboutreaching across the other aisle
(29:04):
genuinely and being able to seethe differences but still know
we're all children of God andunite rather than allowing our
differences to divide us.
What have you learned?
Speaker 2 (29:16):
I think the first thing, the best thing to do
first, is to listen.
That's not my natural, you knowusually it's not mine either.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Right, I'm a talker.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Right, and then to ask questions what do you mean
by that?
So?
And then I would say, to try tofind a place of common ground
and also, I think, toacknowledge that there are
(29:48):
theological differences.
To whoever it is you're talkingto and say I can see that we
probably will not agree on thisview of God.
You believe in the triune God.
I believe in the Father, theSon and the Holy Spirit, that
they are three distinct beings.
I can see we probably will notagree on that, however, and then
(30:13):
move forward to a place thatyou, you can agree and and also
just say to them and that's okay, we, it's okay that we are
different in that way, um, andand it's totally okay that you
know you, you may worry about mysalvation, right, and I may
worry about yours right, but Iat least.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
they're worrying about your salvation.
Like that's actually kind ofcool that they're actually
worried about you and you'restanding with God, and it was a
sweet thing I took last semester.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
I had it was systematic theology, part two,
second part, and I took it froma professor Her name is Mary
Vandenberg, who's also become areally good friend.
She's amazing, she's amazing,she's brilliant.
But we talked about in theology, we talked about the doctrine
(31:07):
of predestination and election,right, right and so what
predestination means for, forpeople who don't know, is that?
And?
And I will say there is, youcan, if you read in the bible,
in the new testament.
I mean, there is.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
I would say, it kind of really heavily implies a lot
of yeah there is absolutelygrounds for this theological
doctrine for both predestination, predestination and an election
yeah, so predestination is thatgod created certain people.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
He predestined certain people for salvation.
There's single predestination,which means that god created
certain people for salvation andthe rest he will pass over
right.
And there's doublepredestination, which is
essentially certain people arecreated for salvation and
certain people are not.
They're essentially created fordamnation.
There is theological groundsfor how they are viewing that.
(32:04):
Yeah, so there's, you know, nojudgment here.
Right, but I knew that goinginto this class, in-person class
, I knew that I obviously withmy religious beliefs for them
they would consider that I wasnot one of the elect.
So I was really nervous aboutthis class, what it would be
like.
It was really interesting andmy professor, who I dearly love,
(32:30):
knows my religious beliefs, andmany of the class did too.
But anyway, she talked aboutelection and the thing that she
stressed and she stressed thisthroughout our class this
semester is that she said to tothose who were of her religious
denomination.
She said we must be verycareful in decide, in thinking
(32:53):
that we know who is elect andwho is not.
She said the thing that I tellpeople who are worried about
their relatives is, she said,we're in God's hands and there
are no better hands that you canbe in, and I love that.
I have used that too because I,honestly, when she said that,
(33:13):
that spoke to me.
We are in God's hands, all ofus.
She was very much throughoutthe semester Right, do not, we
can't, none of us can, makejudgment on who is elect and who
is not.
And she said I believe thatGod's net, the gospel, that net
of gathering is much bigger thanwe think it is, and I really,
(33:34):
really appreciated that.
She was so kind, so considerateof me and I love her dearly for
that.
Yeah, dearly, because it wasjust, she was so thoughtful and
coming from this amazing,brilliant woman, yeah, it was
just a lovely.
It was a lovely experience andafterwards I just went up, I was
(33:57):
teary and I just hugged her andsaid thank you so much.
That was wonderful.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
And you know we, we were able to, just, you know,
connect and bond and feel thespirit, because the spirit
crosses all of that.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
It does.
It does so.
So it has been a wonderfulthing and I know that for some
of my professors they were muchmore open than others, but none
were disrespectful and all weregood and kind to me.
So super grateful for thatexperience that I have had with
those Christian people and itmakes me so hopeful.
(34:30):
I think that is one of thethings that I have felt more
than anything.
I have felt like this that theLord is working through people
and we don't need to be worried.
He's got this.
He knows what he's doing.
This is not his first rodeo.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
He's got it.
It's my first rodeo, it's ours.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
It's not his.
He's got this and we know thatJesus Christ is our savior.
We can trust him to do whathe's supposed to do, which is to
save people.
Sometimes we think that's ourjob, that's not my job, that's
his job.
I can love people, he can savepeople.
(35:12):
At the end of John, the book ofJohn, the gospel of John, after
Jesus has died, he's beenresurrected.
The disciples have already seenhim, but he's not with them.
And there's this little storythey're out in a boat and
they've been fishing thedisciples, the apostles.
(35:34):
They've been fishing all nightand they've been fishing the
disciples, the apostles.
They've been fishing all nightand they've caught nothing.
And they look out there theysee a man on the shore and he
says to them cast your net onthe right side.
And they do, and they pull itup and it is bursting with fish
and Peter realizes this is thesavior and he gets out of the
(35:54):
boat and he runs to the shore.
Now here's the part that's sointeresting.
Jesus already has a fire going,he's already got fish and he's
already got bread.
And then he says to Peter bringthe fish that you have, but he
does not need our fish or ourbread, he's got it.
He's got it.
(36:15):
You know, I mean people willsay that God has no hands, but
your hands.
That is not true.
Right, he can do his own work,but he invites us to participate
in it.
Right, he gives us nudgings, hegives us whisperings.
He may give us super strongpromptings, maybe a voice, maybe
(36:39):
not, but if we will have ourhearts open to us, he will
invite us in to participate withhim in his salvific work.
But it's his work.
It's his work.
It's the hardest thing I've hadto learn in my life to let go
and and say okay, here you go,I'm gonna, which is what you've
(37:01):
literally had to do going tothis college.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
You've had to let go and be like, okay, I am going to
be the minority, I am going tobe who even knows what, right,
but I trust you to get methrough this.
And it's so cool to see he'slike, yeah, here you go.
Here's all these amazingexperiences.
It was still very, very hard,it was very trying, but I think
when you come out on the otherside, that refinement is going
to be so beautiful and it'sgoing to be you're.
(37:26):
You are literally now.
You've been sharpened, you'rethe tool that he has sharpened.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
That's right.
Yeah, that's my prayer.
Oh, you're going to be fine,right, but I had to do that with
the marriage too, right?
Yeah, in both cases twodifferent ways that he spoke to
me yeah, and in both cases yourelinquish control, yes, and you
move forward and it's been awonderful journey with my
husband.
But that doesn't mean thatthere haven't been, you know, we
(37:52):
haven't had to rub each other,of course, the sharp edges off
of each other right.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
They say iron sharpens iron right but I don't
know about that.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
He's gotten me.
I mean I can just kind of outthere.
So you know, bless his heart,it's so amazing.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
Yeah, wow.
Well, I don't.
I don't have any otherquestions, so if you do, you
have any other final thoughts orwould you mind just leaving us
with the testimony?
Speaker 2 (38:15):
I'd love to leave you with the testimony.
Okay, yeah, oh, I just am sograteful for my Savior, jesus
Christ.
I think it's interesting.
We live in a fallen world.
We are fallen people.
You know, we are the naturalman.
Our nature is rebellion.
(38:37):
It's to push against God, right.
And yet if we open ourselves upjust a little bit, I have found
that the Holy Spirit comesrushing in with all of its power
and just turns us toward theSavior and gets us on that right
(38:57):
, that right path.
And I I think the older I get,the more I know how much grace I
need to go back into thepresence of the Father.
And and I am so grateful forhim, for my Savior, for his
(39:17):
sacrifice, for I think about thecross and what he endured and
it's horrific, and that he didit and did not call down the
legions of angels that he couldhave.
Yeah, that he went through it.
Yes, that he suffered, that hebled, that he died, that he went
through it.
(39:37):
Yes, that he suffered, that hebled, that he died, that he rose
again, that we can do all ofthat because of him, that we, we
can have a resurrected body,that we can enter into the
divine presence of our father inheaven.
Through him I feel suchgratitude and I think also that,
(40:05):
because of the atonement thatsomehow everything will be okay,
all of the the hurts, all ofthe imperfections, all of the
sin, all of the fallenness of,of ourselves and of the world,
(40:25):
it will all be healed,completely healed and made whole
.
And I I'm overwhelmed when Ithink about that and the
gratitude that I feel it'sdifficult to express.
(40:46):
I often think about what itwould be like to enter into the
presence of our Father.
You know, there are just a fewplaces in scripture where we
read about it.
And in Isaiah I am undone, I ama man with unclean lips.
(41:07):
You read in Revelation in everysituation Moses, he says now I
know that I am nothing, whichthing I had never before
supposed To enter into.
The presence of the Father isjust so awe-inspiring and so
huge, and you know that you arenot worthy.
(41:28):
But through the Savior, throughhim, we are able to go in,
because he makes us worthy.
I am overwhelmed with gratitude.
Yeah, yeah, just love andgratitude.
So I guess that's my testimonyis that we have this Savior, who
(41:53):
he incarnated and came to earthas a person.
He knows what it's like to havethis body.
He can.
Because of that, he can relateto us.
He is there for us and if youdon't hear him, you can open up
(42:13):
his word and read what he has tosay.
It's all there, it's all thereand the love is there.
So I guess that's my testimonyis that he is real.
Our Father in heaven is real.
The Holy Spirit is there toguide us, to lead us, to comfort
us, and we are blessed.
(42:35):
Lead us to comfort us and weare blessed, and that's my
testimony in the name of JesusChrist.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Amen, amen.
Thank you, cindy, for spendingthis time with me tonight.
It's been really amazing, so Ihope you have a wonderful
evening.
Thank you, thanks again fortuning into More Than
Coincidence, remembering JesusChrist in your Story.
Please follow us on socialmedia or share us with a friend.
If you have an experience you'dlike to share, feel free to
(43:02):
reach out tomorethancoincidencerememberhim
at gmailcom.
I can't wait to hear all of theamazing memories you all have
of our Savior.
See you next time.
Hello everyone and welcome to.
More Than Coincidence,remembering Jesus Christ in your
Story as the author andfinisher of our faith, our
Savior writes personalexperiences into each of our
lives which can later strengthen, empower and bring us peace
upon reflection.
This podcast is dedicated tosharing these anchoring memories
(00:26):
from everyone's unique storiesin order to collectively
remember and testify of thereality of Jesus Christ and his
presence in our lives.
I'm your host, lily, and I'mvery excited to share these
experiences together.
Okay, good evening everybody.
Tonight we have Cindy on thepodcast with us.
How are you, cindy?
I am great.
(00:46):
How are you?
I'm doing really good.
I've really enjoyed sittingtalking to you and getting to
know you before we interviewedso fun.
So would you mind introducingyourself to everybody?
Sure.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
So my name is Cindy Madsen.
I am a wife, a mom, a grandma.
I am a wife, a mom, a grandma,and I am a convert to the Church
of Jesus Christ of Latter-daySaints.
I love Jesus, me too.
I'm so grateful for him and I'mjust excited to be on this
(01:23):
podcast with you.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Well, I am too.
We've had a really fun timechatting, so I can't wait to
hear what story you have.
So I'll just ask you, Cindy um,what memories do you have in
your life that you reflect on,that prick your heart and
remembrance of Jesus Christ andanchor you to him?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
So, as I've thought about this, I have two different
experiences that I wanted toshare with you, that both that
are different.
They kind of I thought maybeshowed a different way that
Jesus would work in our lives.
Yeah, and the first one waswhen I became engaged to my
(02:03):
husband and married him.
When I became engaged to myhusband and married him.
So our marriage story is we metin a modern British literature
class at BYU Wonderful.
We knew each other for a monthand he asked me out, and one
week after our first date we gotengaged.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Oh, my goodness.
Yes, that's what most peoplesay, right, but do I say, is
that typical of BYU?
I don't know.
It's one of the fastest onesI've ever heard.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
I will tell you, this was what was interesting.
When I met him, I knew thatthere was something about him
that I just loved and I shouldback up, so I will be honest
with you.
His dad was a professor at BYU.
His dad was Truman Madsen.
I had taken a class from hisdad and I just thought his dad
(02:53):
was amazing.
And so when I met him, Ithought you know what, If he is
anywhere near as wonderful ashis dad, I want to get to know
him.
Yeah, and so I did.
And so we.
He asked me out, um, after we'dkind of gotten to know each
other for a month and we wentout and I just, I mean, we had
so much fun, it was like talkingto an old friend some right,
(03:17):
yes, somebody that I had justpicked up the friendship after
we hadn't talked for a while andwe had so much to talk about.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
It's so cool when that happens with any
relationship.
Yes, when you're just like, wejust click.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yes, like it's just it's special and I can talk a
lot.
You know that because youtalked to me.
Yeah, he can out talk me.
Oh, really, I had never metanybody that could do that, oh.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
I know That'd be refreshing.
My husband like doesn't talk,so I wonder what that would be
like being married to someonewho talks a lot.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
So you know what?
It's funny because I amprobably and he would tell you
this too I'm like the leastspontaneous person that there is
.
I plan, everything from like mygrocery list and menus to where
we're going to go on vacation.
What I'm going to do, you knowthe five-year plan all of this I
plan everything, yeah, and Itold him when we got married I'm
(04:13):
like you can surprise me, butyou have to tell me that you're
going to surprise me so I canlike get my head around this and
yes, but that's hilarious.
We after it was so we went on.
Yeah, it was one week, and sowe'd finally we got on, went on
the state a week after our firstdate.
We'd seen each other every dayand had gone out and we were
(04:35):
just talking about, about things, and and and, and it just kind
of gradually led up to myhusband saying, well, I think I
think we should get married.
And I said I think we shouldtoo, and I knew that was the
right thing.
Yeah, like that was.
I knew it was, you could justfeel it.
And it was 42 years later.
It was the right thing, yeah,so I was 20 years old and I A
(04:59):
youngin.
I was a youngin and it was thebest decision I have ever made,
but it was God directly speakingto me, interesting, letting me
know I mean I didn't hear avoice or anything, right, but
this very, very, very strongfeeling that this was the right
thing to do.
Right, and it was the rightthing to do.
(05:21):
And it was very out ofcharacter for me, really,
because it happened so fast andbecause it was just like okay,
yes let's do this Literally thatnight we should get married.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Yes, we should.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
But you felt the peace.
I knew it was right.
Yeah, I knew it was right.
Yeah, wow, yeah, yeah, that'sso cool and that that, that
experience um it was unique inmy life.
So that is not normally how Ihave felt Right, God speaking to
(05:55):
me that that is not normal forme.
That was a very definite.
This is right.
This is what you need to do itright and I did and you know
that was.
Thankfully it paid off and itdid I met your grand babies.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
They're so cute.
They're lovely.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Yes so, um, yeah.
So, so that was a was a verydifferent kind, and now I want
to tell you another one that ismuch more normal.
Okay, so in my patriarchalblessing it says this the Lord
will prepare the way for youthat you will be able to have
(06:35):
advanced schooling.
And then I'm going to stopright there and I'll read a
little bit more later.
So I've always known like thatwas in my patriarchal blessing
and I did my undergraduatedegree, um, like I said at BYU,
yeah, um, and then, and we gotmarried- and.
I was only two years into it andright, so you finished and I.
So I finished, yeah, um, and I.
(06:57):
Literally I was walking acrossthe stage three weeks before my
second child was born.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Oh, oh my gosh To get my diploma, that's insane.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
So I did it right.
I got it done.
I did it because that wasreally important to me, Right To
get that degree and I hadalways thought I would go on and
do graduate work.
But you know, I had the babies,my babies, my kids, and my
husband got a law degree at BYUand then went into the military,
(07:28):
into the JAG.
And we traveled and you know,there just wasn't, it wasn't the
right time.
There was no online schoolingeither no, and there just wasn't
the opportunity.
I ended up.
We moved to England.
My kids went to this amazingBritish school.
I loved it.
We came back to the UnitedStates.
I just wasn't as happy with theschool we were with.
(07:50):
I ended up.
I had a neighbor whohomeschooled.
I ended up homes know, my kidsstarted getting married.
My oldest son got married andwhen it was time for their child
(08:11):
to start preschool, mydaughter-in-law asked if I would
start a preschool and I saidsure, because she knew I'd
homeschool the kids.
So I did.
I did a preschool for her,which organically grew into this
.
Yeah, so I did a waldorfpreschool for eight years and
then covet hit, and and and itwas and I had.
(08:32):
I had kind of been feeling likeit was getting to be time to
stop doing that and I'd beenfeeling these nudgings that it
maybe was time to pursuegraduate work.
Okay, right.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
But you're like but it's COVID.
Like how the heck am I supposedto go to school with COVID
Right?
Speaker 2 (08:49):
And also like is that wise to do it this time, right,
I mean, would I recoup theamount of money we put into
graduate work?
Exactly Did God mean when hesaid that I would receive
advanced schooling?
Was that just my undergraduateschooling, right, right?
Speaker 1 (09:05):
he said that I would receive advanced schooling.
Well, was that just myundergraduate schooling?
Right, right.
What does this mean?
Yeah, where do I go?
What does it mean?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (09:09):
And these were very just, these gentle nudgings, and
I am reminded of Elijah, whenhe was fleeing from Jezebel,
queen Jezebel, who was trying tokill him, and so he went to
Mount Sinai and found a cave,and he hid in it and the Lord
(09:29):
told him to go up to the top ofthe mountain where he could
speak to him.
So that's total temple, templetext, temple ideas there, right,
and so he did and it talksabout that.
The Lord, you know he came.
You know the Lord, you know hecame.
You know the Lord passed by him.
There was a great earthquake,there was a great fire.
There was a great wind, right.
The Lord wasn't any of thosethings.
(09:51):
And then you think, likethere's like this pause, right,
and you can imagine he is out inthe desert, there is this
fragile stillness, and then theLord speaks, right, and it's in
this still small voice, andmaybe that's why he could hear
him right, because everythingwas quiet.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
It was quiet now, yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
You know, but you can imagine that right, this desert
quiet and this quietness of thevoice right.
Right, just very quiet.
That is usually more how I feelGod, yeah, very quietly, and
that was how it was in thissituation, and I talked it over
with my husband and he was, hejust was.
You know, you should do this.
(10:33):
It doesn't matter if you quoteunquote do anything with this
degree.
Yeah, if you feel that this iswhat God is nudging you to do,
like you should do it.
Feel that this is what God isnudging you to do, like, yeah,
you should do it, you should dothis.
And so I did.
I decided it was yeah, we'regonna shut the preschool down.
Covid was.
It was tricky, everybody had somany expectations anyway.
(10:54):
Right, so I did.
And um, and everything hadclosed.
So might as well take a breakright, and so I just started
thinking about where, and I knewand this is where things had
changed over the years that Iwanted to go to either a
divinity school or a seminary ofsome sort, Right To do a degree
(11:16):
in theologies yeah, eitherbiblical history or theology,
and so and I really particularlyfocused on the Old Testament,
which is my love that was reallywhere I were, the area of that
I really wanted to study, but Ialso knew that it would be
fairly easy for me to get into amore liberal seminary as an LDS
(11:41):
person.
As an LDS person, no judgment Imean.
Every school can choose whothey want to go to Exactly yeah.
But I knew I wanted to go to amore conservative school and
that might be difficult, but thereason was because I wanted my
professors to be believers,really committed to Jesus, to
(12:02):
God, to the Bible Right, and soI did.
So I applied to severaldifferent seminaries that I
thought might be more ecumenical, right, and was turned down by
several because of theologicaldifferences, which totally
understand, and that's fine,yeah, but one of the seminaries
(12:23):
that I had applied to was CalvinTheological Seminary.
Yeah, and I applied therebecause they're in Grand Rapids,
michigan, and Grand Rapids is areally interesting place
because it's very Christian.
It's.
It's the home of the threebiggest Christian publishing
houses.
Are there Baker Books,zondervan and Erdman?
Yeah, they're all there.
But the big reason I wanted toapply was because my dad grew up
(12:49):
on a farm in St John's,michigan it's about an hour and
a half away from Grand Rapids,and I am a convert, as I said,
to the Church of Jesus Christ ofLatter-day Saints, and so none
of my relatives are members ofthe church and I I mean, we're
friends, but I live in Utah,they're in Michigan.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
It's just so far away .
Yeah, this will give you achance to go be with them.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Exactly, exactly I knew that I could do that you
know yeah and um, but I didn'tthink I would get into Calvin
because they are a conservativeChristian school.
But, bless their hearts, I wouldget into Calvin because they
are a conservative Christianschool.
Yeah, but bless their hearts,they took a chance on me and
they applied.
I mean, they accepted me, yeah,and it has been wonderful
(13:35):
Really, this amazing experience,right, and I have met the most
amazing Christian friends.
Yes, most amazing Christianfriends, yes, I have had amazing
professors who are so godly,yes, so good, and know so much,
yes, and I have learned so muchfrom them.
(13:55):
So I just want to read a littlebit more about from my blessing
, and it says this.
It says so.
I will.
I'll just start again.
The Lord will prepare the wayfor you that you will be able to
have advanced schooling.
I bless you that you will seekand desire the opportunity to
associate with peers during thiseducational opportunity that
you will have, which willstrengthen you and build up and
(14:18):
build.
Build you up and prepare youfor the mission that you have
upon the earth.
It will be in this environmentthat the Lord will bear witness
to your soul in even morepowerful ways, of the divinity
of the mission of the Church ofJesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints, and of Jesus Christ andof the great work that he did in
providing salvation for thesouls of men.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
That's so prophetic, holy cow.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Right.
Oh my gosh, because that iswhat has happened.
Yes, I have learned so muchabout the Savior Right and from
people who love him.
Yes, there may be nuanceddifferences that we have Right.
There may be theologicaldifferences, but their love for
(15:06):
Jesus Christ has profoundlydeepened my love and I am so
grateful for them.
I am so grateful for what theyhave taught me about the Savior,
what they've taught me aboutI've always loved the Bible.
What they've taught me aboutI've always loved the Bible, but
I love it even more because oftheir love and what they've
(15:30):
taught me, and so I just feellike, uh, that part of my
blessing that was given to mehas, for me, completely from God
, has been fulfilled.
But it took effort on my parttoo, right, right, do you
(15:52):
understand what I'm saying,right?
So I feel like God will nudgeyou in these quiet ways.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
And if you act on those things, and if you try to
fulfill these little whisperings, these little, the little,
still small voice, the thingsthat you hear, he will bless you
in that.
And if your blessing, yourpatriarchal blessing, says
things, if you work to try tofulfill it in whatever way you
(16:21):
think is right, if it is right,the Lord will open things up.
Yes, exactly.
So I think, yeah, that thatthat was so important to me to
see that there are differences,and I think oftentimes it can be
hard in this world that we livein, agreed.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
It is loud.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Yeah, it is full of distractions.
Right, it is hard to slow down,to be still to hear, still
enough to hear the voice of theLord.
Right, that time, during COVID,when everything did slow down,
(17:02):
it forced me to stop enough.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Yeah Right, too bad it took a pandemic for us to all
be still.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Right, it's not that I hadn't kind of started feeling
nudgings that maybe it was timeto switch gears.
Kind of started feelingnudgings that maybe it was time
to switch gears, but wheneverything shut down Right, it
really made me stop long enoughbecause of the busyness.
Yeah, it was such a part of mylife and is again yeah, when we
don't, it's like natural to us.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
We don't understand what stillness versus busyness
is, because it's just what we do.
It's what we do.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Yeah, and our American culture really, I agree
really promotes this.
Yeah, we're way too fast paced.
Sometimes we get our validationfrom how productive we are.
That's me.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
I'm guilty, we all are, because that's what our
culture tells us is valid,that's what our culture tells us
is right is how you get yourworth, how busy or how
productive.
What are you producing?
Right, right, right.
But we, we slowed down enoughso that I could just stop for a
little bit and hear this.
So I had to.
So, once I'd made the decision,um, and and and was deciding
(18:15):
who to send things out, who whoto send out applications.
Yeah, then, at that point, youstarted to, I started to have
people getting back to me andyou do interviews and things
like that, and I think what washardest for me.
And so here's the next thing isthat I, when I did join the
church, there was a lot ofopposition from one of my, from
(18:37):
my grandparent on my mother'sside, and, and I think because
of that I I've always been alittle more reserved about my
belief.
Yeah, just a little morehesitant.
I think, yeah, never quite surehow anybody would react.
And, um, and this processcaused me, you had to put
(19:00):
yourself out there.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
I had to put myself out there.
You had to defend everything.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Probably, too, I did, and I also had to just state
what I was to people who may notfeel good about that, and
that's okay, but you know, right.
So I feel like that was theLord also really stretching me
to say you know, come on,girlfriend, you have got to step
it up here.
(19:23):
You have got to just putyourself out for me and for the
Savior.
You have got to yes, not that I, I mean within my own sphere of
my congregation- my, you knowmy church I very much am this is
literally going out of yourcomfort zone, out of my.
You are doing my congregation,my.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
You know my church I very much am this is literally
going out of your comfort zone,of my comfort zone, yeah,
completely right out of mycomfort.
And not only that, it's likeyou're paying.
You're going to try payingmoney to be here and to like
spend a lot of time with thisright, so I think's that's
really daunting.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
It was daunting, yeah it was yeah, so in my school I
do it's a hybrid program and soI do it online but I also go
back every semester in person todo intensive classes.
Yeah, and so the first timethat I was going to go back, it
was nerve wracking for me.
In fact, my daughter-in-law,the day before we flew out, she
(20:22):
said I can't.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
She'd come over and she said you look like a deer in
the headlights who's about tothrow up, and I said that's how
I feel.
Pretty accurate, that was how Ifeel.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
So when I went back there in one of my classes he
was going through and having usintroduce ourselves and he said
you know, give your name, whereyou're from, a little bit about
you, Right, and if you wouldlike share what religious
denomination you are.
Now the school that I go to,Calvin Theological Seminary, is
(20:50):
church.
It's CRC, so Christian ReformedChurch, yes, and so most of the
people were Christian Reformedor American Reformed.
There were a couple that werePentecostal.
And then they get to me and myinitial thought, when he had
said this I'm not going to saywhat I am, I am not that brave.
(21:11):
But by this time everybody hadnot only told about themselves,
but they also told whatreligious denomination they were
Right.
So I said well, I am a memberof the Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints, so I am theresident heretic in the room.
What did they say?
Every LDS person I talked tolaughs.
(21:31):
There was a shocked silence.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
but I thought well, we'll get it out there.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
And you know what, afterwards this man who has
become a sweet friend, eric, hecame up to me.
He said that was so brave ofyou.
And he said I am so gratefulthat you are here.
We need you.
Right, and that is what I foundand and I feel like I need them
too.
Yes, we need to pull together,and I think, as Christians, we
(22:02):
have all found that we have topull together or we will fall
together.
Yes, and I say that for themand for us Right, we need each
other.
We need each other and I see agathering happening.
The Lord is gathering hispeople, yes, who believe in his
son.
He is bringing us together.
I have seen that happening.
(22:22):
I see an openness andacknowledgement that there are
theological differences, oftenprofound theological differences
.
Right, and that's okay.
Right, we can hold hands, yeah,you know, and we can accept
that the differences are there.
That's why we have two handsright one to say that we're the
(22:43):
same and one to say that we'redifferent, and we can reach
across the aisle and we can grabhands yes, and we can work
together to promote or I don'tknow how you want to say it, but
to declare j Christ.
I think that's the way to say it.
Correct, we can work together.
Correct, we can, we can talkabout our savior, yes, so that
(23:07):
that in that way, my testimonyof him Right has grown
tremendously Right.
My testimony of my religiousdenomination also has.
So I feel like in that way, Ihave been blessed.
I have been blessed to havethis quiet voice telling me an
(23:34):
important thing and I listenedto it.
I faced a lot of fears Right,and I was stretched and have
been stretched.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Yeah, and we'll continue to be stretched
continue to be stretched becauseyou're not done.
You have one semester left.
We're almost there, but yes,yeah and um, yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
And then at that point, yeah, you asked earlier
what, what do I, what do I wantto do with this degree?
When we were talking earlierand now here is the thing I'm
waiting.
I'm waiting again because Iknow that the Lord will start
moving me in the direction thathe wants me to go.
(24:11):
He did this for me I needed togrow, but he did it for himself
too.
There are things that I willneed to do.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Well, and even when you and I were talking earlier,
I did have the distinct thoughtof you know, we need people who
can understand, who can, whohave spent the time, because
they love it, to learn aboutthese other denominations and
these other branches ofChristianity, so that when the
physical gathering happens,you're like, oh yeah, let's sit
and talk about this.
(24:39):
I know exactly like, and youand you can even then help
educate me who?
I don't know any of that rightnow and you can sit and lead.
You're telling me about how youwant to do these Bible studies.
You can sit and we can do Biblestudies together and you
literally can be that bridgethat the Lord can use and that,
like, I don't know, I don't knowif that's what he's officially
going to use you for, butpersonally, when you were
(25:00):
telling me that, that was thethought, I was like, oh my gosh,
cindy's going to be a bridge.
That is my hope, right, she'sgoing to help.
That is my hope.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Because I have had people very conscious that I am
a guest at their table.
Yes, they have graciouslyinvited me into their home and
so if people ask me questions, Iam happy to share Right, but
I'm not there to convert thatschool.
I am there to listen and learnExactly, and that has been a
(25:40):
really very important to me andit has been at least for me,
that has been the best way to dothings and I've had so much fun
learning about my friends.
What do you believe?
How you know, how do you work?
How does how does God speak toyou?
(26:03):
Right, right, I know how hespeaks to me.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
Yeah, I know how he speaks or even like how we've
been taught, like the burning inthe bosom or the.
You know the ways that we kindof frame it within LDS culture
and LDS doctrine and stuff tohear it described in a different
way from a different person, I,or I should say like a
different religion ordenomination, that that's cool.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
It really is, because I've learned a lot of things, I
think, as far as how, how doyou hear god?
Yeah, sometimes that can bereally difficult for us as lds
people, right, because I thinkwhen you say like a burning in
the bosom, so I mean, well, I'venever felt that way.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
That's just heartburn .
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Yeah, right, what does that mean?
I know what is it.
The thing I have learned themost is that God has already
spoken to us.
In fact, we have severalthousand pages of scripture
where his word is there so often.
If you want to hear God, mybiggest piece of advice would be
go open your scriptures.
Yeah, is there, yeah, so often.
(27:00):
If you want to hear God, mybiggest piece of advice would be
go open your scriptures.
Yeah, read it, because he isspeaking to you right there.
Yeah, if you have some sort ofa, some kind of inspiration you
feel is coming from God, go openup your scriptures and make
sure it lines up with that.
Very cool If it's lining upwith the scriptures.
If it's lining up with the wordof God, go open up your
(27:21):
scriptures and make sure itlines up with that.
Very cool If it's lining upwith the scriptures.
If it's lining up with the wordof God, then you can be pretty
sure that's God speaking to you.
If it's something that isnowhere in the scriptures,
that's probably not coming fromGod.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
Right, well.
And I think when we say that,we also mean like, not that
God's going to tell you in thescriptures, go to this bible
college.
But he's gonna say we know that, we know in the scriptures it
says all good things come fromgod, right, right.
And so you?
Then you have to sit and ponderokay, is this a good thing?
Speaker 2 (27:48):
is it, is it is it?
Speaker 1 (27:50):
am I keeping my covenant still?
Is it allowing me to still?
Speaker 2 (27:52):
do these things and then you.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
You then you can make that decision of, yes, this is
right or no, this, this isn'tright.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
You know, yeah, is this good?
Is it true, right, exactly,correct.
So I think those things areimportant and that is something
I think I've learned.
Yeah, more, yeah, to understand.
Wait a minute, you know what?
I can hear him really well byjust opening up and reading the
scriptures, that's amazing, so Ireally love that.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
You keep talking about, you know, unity within
God's people, within believersof Christ, and you and I were
talking earlier about how theworld is divided in so many ways
and how even the media andeverybody is making us feel like
Christians are outdated or thatany you know, any kind of
religion is not needed, all ofthat stuff and we just keep
(28:41):
seeing this division betweenchurches and between everybody
in general.
But you've had this amazingopportunity to really unite and
learn skills and haveexperiences when it comes to
uniting and reach, extendingboth hands.
So what do you think?
Or I should say, what has thespirit and what has taught?
Has Christ taught you aboutreaching across the other aisle
(29:04):
genuinely and being able to seethe differences but still know
we're all children of God andunite rather than allowing our
differences to divide us.
What have you learned?
Speaker 2 (29:16):
I think the first thing, the best thing to do
first, is to listen.
That's not my natural, you knowusually it's not mine either.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Right, I'm a talker.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Right, and then to ask questions what do you mean
by that?
So?
And then I would say, to try tofind a place of common ground
and also, I think, toacknowledge that there are
(29:48):
theological differences.
To whoever it is you're talkingto and say I can see that we
probably will not agree on thisview of God.
You believe in the triune God.
I believe in the Father, theSon and the Holy Spirit, that
they are three distinct beings.
I can see we probably will notagree on that, however, and then
(30:13):
move forward to a place thatyou, you can agree and and also
just say to them and that's okay, we, it's okay that we are
different in that way, um, andand it's totally okay that you
know you, you may worry about mysalvation, right, and I may
worry about yours right, but Iat least.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
they're worrying about your salvation.
Like that's actually kind ofcool that they're actually
worried about you and you'restanding with God, and it was a
sweet thing I took last semester.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
I had it was systematic theology, part two,
second part, and I took it froma professor Her name is Mary
Vandenberg, who's also become areally good friend.
She's amazing, she's amazing,she's brilliant.
But we talked about in theology, we talked about the doctrine
(31:07):
of predestination and election,right, right and so what
predestination means for, forpeople who don't know, is that?
And?
And I will say there is, youcan, if you read in the bible,
in the new testament.
I mean, there is.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
I would say, it kind of really heavily implies a lot
of yeah there is absolutelygrounds for this theological
doctrine for both predestination, predestination and an election
yeah, so predestination is thatgod created certain people.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
He predestined certain people for salvation.
There's single predestination,which means that god created
certain people for salvation andthe rest he will pass over
right.
And there's doublepredestination, which is
essentially certain people arecreated for salvation and
certain people are not.
They're essentially created fordamnation.
There is theological groundsfor how they are viewing that.
(32:04):
Yeah, so there's, you know, nojudgment here.
Right, but I knew that goinginto this class, in-person class
, I knew that I obviously withmy religious beliefs for them
they would consider that I wasnot one of the elect.
So I was really nervous aboutthis class, what it would be
like.
It was really interesting andmy professor, who I dearly love,
(32:30):
knows my religious beliefs, andmany of the class did too.
But anyway, she talked aboutelection and the thing that she
stressed and she stressed thisthroughout our class this
semester is that she said to tothose who were of her religious
denomination.
She said we must be verycareful in decide, in thinking
(32:53):
that we know who is elect andwho is not.
She said the thing that I tellpeople who are worried about
their relatives is, she said,we're in God's hands and there
are no better hands that you canbe in, and I love that.
I have used that too because I,honestly, when she said that,
(33:13):
that spoke to me.
We are in God's hands, all ofus.
She was very much throughoutthe semester Right, do not, we
can't, none of us can, makejudgment on who is elect and who
is not.
And she said I believe thatGod's net, the gospel, that net
of gathering is much bigger thanwe think it is, and I really,
(33:34):
really appreciated that.
She was so kind, so considerateof me and I love her dearly for
that.
Yeah, dearly, because it wasjust, she was so thoughtful and
coming from this amazing,brilliant woman, yeah, it was
just a lovely.
It was a lovely experience andafterwards I just went up, I was
(33:57):
teary and I just hugged her andsaid thank you so much.
That was wonderful.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
And you know we, we were able to, just, you know,
connect and bond and feel thespirit, because the spirit
crosses all of that.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
It does.
It does so.
So it has been a wonderfulthing and I know that for some
of my professors they were muchmore open than others, but none
were disrespectful and all weregood and kind to me.
So super grateful for thatexperience that I have had with
those Christian people and itmakes me so hopeful.
(34:30):
I think that is one of thethings that I have felt more
than anything.
I have felt like this that theLord is working through people
and we don't need to be worried.
He's got this.
He knows what he's doing.
This is not his first rodeo.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
He's got it.
It's my first rodeo, it's ours.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
It's not his.
He's got this and we know thatJesus Christ is our savior.
We can trust him to do whathe's supposed to do, which is to
save people.
Sometimes we think that's ourjob, that's not my job, that's
his job.
I can love people, he can savepeople.
(35:12):
At the end of John, the book ofJohn, the gospel of John, after
Jesus has died, he's beenresurrected.
The disciples have already seenhim, but he's not with them.
And there's this little storythey're out in a boat and
they've been fishing thedisciples, the apostles.
(35:34):
They've been fishing all nightand they've been fishing the
disciples, the apostles.
They've been fishing all nightand they've caught nothing.
And they look out there theysee a man on the shore and he
says to them cast your net onthe right side.
And they do, and they pull itup and it is bursting with fish
and Peter realizes this is thesavior and he gets out of the
(35:54):
boat and he runs to the shore.
Now here's the part that's sointeresting.
Jesus already has a fire going,he's already got fish and he's
already got bread.
And then he says to Peter bringthe fish that you have, but he
does not need our fish or ourbread, he's got it.
He's got it.
(36:15):
You know, I mean people willsay that God has no hands, but
your hands.
That is not true.
Right, he can do his own work,but he invites us to participate
in it.
Right, he gives us nudgings, hegives us whisperings.
He may give us super strongpromptings, maybe a voice, maybe
(36:39):
not, but if we will have ourhearts open to us, he will
invite us in to participate withhim in his salvific work.
But it's his work.
It's his work.
It's the hardest thing I've hadto learn in my life to let go
and and say okay, here you go,I'm gonna, which is what you've
(37:01):
literally had to do going tothis college.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
You've had to let go and be like, okay, I am going to
be the minority, I am going tobe who even knows what, right,
but I trust you to get methrough this.
And it's so cool to see he'slike, yeah, here you go.
Here's all these amazingexperiences.
It was still very, very hard,it was very trying, but I think
when you come out on the otherside, that refinement is going
to be so beautiful and it'sgoing to be you're.
(37:26):
You are literally now.
You've been sharpened, you'rethe tool that he has sharpened.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
That's right.
Yeah, that's my prayer.
Oh, you're going to be fine,right, but I had to do that with
the marriage too, right?
Yeah, in both cases twodifferent ways that he spoke to
me yeah, and in both cases yourelinquish control, yes, and you
move forward and it's been awonderful journey with my
husband.
But that doesn't mean thatthere haven't been, you know, we
(37:52):
haven't had to rub each other,of course, the sharp edges off
of each other right.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
They say iron sharpens iron right but I don't
know about that.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
He's gotten me.
I mean I can just kind of outthere.
So you know, bless his heart,it's so amazing.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
Yeah, wow.
Well, I don't.
I don't have any otherquestions, so if you do, you
have any other final thoughts orwould you mind just leaving us
with the testimony?
Speaker 2 (38:15):
I'd love to leave you with the testimony.
Okay, yeah, oh, I just am sograteful for my Savior, jesus
Christ.
I think it's interesting.
We live in a fallen world.
We are fallen people.
You know, we are the naturalman.
Our nature is rebellion.
(38:37):
It's to push against God, right.
And yet if we open ourselves upjust a little bit, I have found
that the Holy Spirit comesrushing in with all of its power
and just turns us toward theSavior and gets us on that right
(38:57):
, that right path.
And I I think the older I get,the more I know how much grace I
need to go back into thepresence of the Father.
And and I am so grateful forhim, for my Savior, for his
(39:17):
sacrifice, for I think about thecross and what he endured and
it's horrific, and that he didit and did not call down the
legions of angels that he couldhave.
Yeah, that he went through it.
Yes, that he suffered, that hebled, that he died, that he went
through it.
(39:37):
Yes, that he suffered, that hebled, that he died, that he rose
again, that we can do all ofthat because of him, that we, we
can have a resurrected body,that we can enter into the
divine presence of our father inheaven.
Through him I feel suchgratitude and I think also that,
(40:05):
because of the atonement thatsomehow everything will be okay,
all of the the hurts, all ofthe imperfections, all of the
sin, all of the fallenness of,of ourselves and of the world,
(40:25):
it will all be healed,completely healed and made whole
.
And I I'm overwhelmed when Ithink about that and the
gratitude that I feel it'sdifficult to express.
(40:46):
I often think about what itwould be like to enter into the
presence of our Father.
You know, there are just a fewplaces in scripture where we
read about it.
And in Isaiah I am undone, I ama man with unclean lips.
(41:07):
You read in Revelation in everysituation Moses, he says now I
know that I am nothing, whichthing I had never before
supposed To enter into.
The presence of the Father isjust so awe-inspiring and so
huge, and you know that you arenot worthy.
(41:28):
But through the Savior, throughhim, we are able to go in,
because he makes us worthy.
I am overwhelmed with gratitude.
Yeah, yeah, just love andgratitude.
So I guess that's my testimonyis that we have this Savior, who
(41:53):
he incarnated and came to earthas a person.
He knows what it's like to havethis body.
He can.
Because of that, he can relateto us.
He is there for us and if youdon't hear him, you can open up
(42:13):
his word and read what he has tosay.
It's all there, it's all thereand the love is there.
So I guess that's my testimonyis that he is real.
Our Father in heaven is real.
The Holy Spirit is there toguide us, to lead us, to comfort
us, and we are blessed.
(42:35):
Lead us to comfort us and weare blessed, and that's my
testimony in the name of JesusChrist.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Amen, amen.
Thank you, cindy, for spendingthis time with me tonight.
It's been really amazing, so Ihope you have a wonderful
evening.
Thank you, thanks again fortuning into More Than
Coincidence, remembering JesusChrist in your Story.
Please follow us on socialmedia or share us with a friend.
If you have an experience you'dlike to share, feel free to
(43:02):
reach out tomorethancoincidencerememberhim
at gmailcom.
I can't wait to hear all of theamazing memories you all have
of our Savior.
See you next time.
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