January 16, 2023 • 20 mins
We've reached the halfway point of Season 03. And following in the tradition from previous seasons, we're marking the occasion with a special bonus episode, and an extra special bonus guest. This particular guest has been a long time coming! The timing of this episode couldn't be better. Not only does it coincide with the New Year and the run-up to Spring Festival in China, it also coincides with an inflexion point in China as it pivots from Zero-COVID to a new period of openness and opportunity. What kind of emotions does this massive change generate in those of us who have spent the last three years in China? Well... it's complicated. Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 01:33 - Main 18:31 - Outro 20:12 - Easter Egg Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at: https://mosaicofchina.com/season-03-bonus-codependency Join the community: Instagram https://instagram.com/oscology LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/mosaicofchina Facebook https://facebook.com/mosaicofchina WeChat https://mosaicofchina.com/wechat
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
[Trailer]OF: The secret's out,
we do not have a very exciting life.DN: Invite us out, people!
[Intro]OF: Welcome to
Mosaic of China, a podcast about people who are
making their mark in China.I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
Happy new year! We're in that strange limboperiod between New Year and Chinese New Year,
(00:26):
where nothing really gets startedproperly in this part of the world.
But seeing as it's been so many weeks sincethe last episode - which was Episode 15 with
Dajiang - I figured I should release something newthis week. In the past I've always invited another
China-based podcaster to interview me for thesespecial mid-season bonus episodes. But this time,
(00:50):
I've invited none other than DennyNewell to join me behind the mic.
You hear me say his name at the end of everysingle episode, so now you finally get to hear
his voice. And it's about time, seeing as it wasDenny who actually came up with the name 'Mosaic'
when we were brainstorming ideas behind thispodcast. I have so much more to thank Denny for
(01:15):
all his help behind the scenes of this project,and you'll hear some of that coming right up.
I'll be back again at the end of the episode withanother little announcement. But in the meantime,
I hope you enjoy the spectacle that is me andDenny trying to have a normal conversation.
[Main]OF:
Hello Denny.DN: Hello Oscar.
OF (01:36):
I’ve decided that for this season's bonus episode, it's going to be a
conversation between you and me. You beingmy chief image designer on Mosaic of China.
You also happen to be my partner and husband.DN: Oh yeah! I’m that too,
yes. I do all of those things.OF: I really don't know how this
is going to go. Because we've been togethernow for 10 years, which means that we don't
(02:00):
really communicate in full sentences at all.It's more like grunts and other animal noises.
So let's see what kind of conversation we'regonna have. It's gonna be as much a surprise
for us as it's gonna be for anyone listening.DN: Yeah, I think it will be. I don't know how
this is going to go. It’s unrehearsed, everybody.OF: I should explain that this is happening
(02:22):
because of a suggestion byMax Cassidy. Hello, Max.
DN (02:25):
Hello Max. Thank you… I think? OF
would want to hear, and he said “Oh, youdefinitely have to have a chat with Denny
at some point.” Let me, I guess first ofall, introduce you to anyone listening.
All right. OF
entourage. You're my entourage of one. You'remy key supporter in this whole endeavour.
(02:48):
I look to you, because you are someone who I seeas possibly the most capable person that I know.
You're just a fully functional human being. It's arevelation to me that there are people walking the
planet like you, who actually can just do things.You know, for me, I can be like that, but only in
(03:09):
short stints. I have phases where things areworking well, and I'm in full flow. But then I
have phases where the wheels completely come off,and everything starts piling up around me. So just
to be around someone like you who is consistent,and who is reliable, it’s like living with a god.
Oh wow! OF
(03:31):
want to say a big thank you for just being thereas a symbol of how people just get **** done.
Oh well thank you. I don't know that I live up to all of
those accolades, but I'll take them. Thank you.OF: Well, apart from being the designer of the
logos of Mosaic of China…DN: Yes.
OD (03:48):
…What is your day job? DN
for Shanghai Disney Resort Entertainment. So myteam takes care of all the live entertainment
that happens at Shanghai Disney Resort (03:58):
the parades, the shows, all the seasonal events,
all the decor. So yeah, it's a pretty fun job.OF: And you are the reason we are here. You
got the job here in Disney Shanghai. We met inHong Kong when you were at the Hong Kong park.
DN (04:13):
Yes, I was Creative Director there for Entertainment, and got the call to
apply - and then ended up getting the job -to move to that same role here in Shanghai.
And I have since been promoted to this new role.OF: Thanks to you, we had a great guest in Season
01, which was Philippe Gas.DN: Yes.
OF (04:29):
He, at the time, was the President of the Shanghai Disney Resort. And getting him
was one of the things that really spurredthe entire project along. Because when I
was first asking people to be a part of theproject back then - when it didn't exist,
and they didn't quite know what they were saying“Yes” to - the fact that Philippe was on board so
soon, thanks to your introduction, really helpedkickstart the entire project. So that's a bit of
(04:55):
a secret weapon that I had there, thanks to you.DN: Well, you know Philippe because of me. But it
was your idea - your plan for the whole podcast- that sold him on wanting to be a part of it.
So I can't take credit for that, I think thepodcast - and you - should take credit for that.
OK, well we have to stop being so sickeningly nice to each other.
Before we stop, I said that you are capable, butI think it's the creative side that obviously has
(05:19):
inspired me. You know, when you and I met, I wasmuch more in a business realm. I was very much in
that zone. Being with you has opened up my eyes tohow you can harness your own creativity, and do it
in a positive way. That's the thing about you, youare a positive person. It's something which me,
as a Brit, I am predisposed to be cynical about.You are the bright and shiny Californian, and I am
(05:45):
the twisted depressive Brit in the relationship.But it's something where I see the phrase ‘Putting
good energy out there’. And I see the way thatwhat you do engenders positivity in other people.
I've only learned a fraction of that, but I willcontinue trying. Because it's something where I
(06:06):
used to see it as something which was a bit fake.And you know, that kind of toxic positivity now
that people talk about.DN: Right.
But for you, it's entirely genuine. So if I am at all positive these days,
it's basically thanks to you.DN: That’s not the truth. No, that's
not true at all. But thank you. OK, let's turn thetables, we’re supposed to be talking about you.
(06:28):
So I'll introduce you, Oscar, how about that?OF: Well, maybe what you can introduce is what
you see in terms of how I work onthis project. What do you observe?
DN (06:39):
Right. Well I know that when you first came up with the idea, it was really a way to continue
meeting interesting people. And I was proud ofthat. You came up with an idea to keep yourself
busy, and it's really become a big part of ourlives. And has expanded not only your network,
but my network, and our network as a couple.You know, we've talked about friends coming
(07:00):
and going - especially lately in Shanghai - andthe few friends that we still have in Shanghai,
are mostly because of Mosaic of China.OF: Yeah.
It's really kept us afloat, and kept us as sane as we can be during some difficult times.
OF (07:13):
Yeah. Yeah, I do agree with that. I think part of my worry in coming up to Shanghai - when
I first moved up here to be with you - was“How am I going to develop an identity for
myself?” You know, I didn’t just want to wantto latch on to all of your friends. So yeah,
it is interesting how it has become this vehiclefor me to keep in the traffic of new people. And
(07:35):
it's not like everyone who I interview becomes ourfriend. And it's not like every friend we have has
come from the show.DN: Right.
But it's just something which makes sure that both of us keep our eyes outwardly focused,
and not too inwardly focused. Which has been veryeasy to do during this last year, especially.
DN (07:51):
Definitely, I do think it kept us sane in that regard, and helped us expand our
friends circle beyond where we probablywould have been without it. Definitely.
OF (08:01):
Yeah. DN
thing we wanted to talk about is, you and I justgot back from our first trip out of the Chinese
mainland in almost three years. Back to the Statesfor me, and we saw some of your family as well.
So how would you describe yourfeelings about that trip? Like,
what does it mean to you, what was it like?OF: I mean, at the beginning it was like "What
(08:24):
the hell?” When we left, it was when things werevery unstable down our street. And so we figured
“Ach you know what, we've waited three years forthis trip. Let's not leave it to any chance, let’s
just bring the trip forward.” And we were out.DN: Right.
Because things change so quickly. I mean, that probably is my answer to you.
The feeling I get from that trip now is, it's areminder about how fast things change in China.
DN (08:47):
Right. OF
trip, people were asking us about what it'slike on the ground in China. And by that time,
we basically had to say “Well, we don’t know!”DN: Right.
OF (08:58):
Because we left China, and it was still ‘zero-COVID’. And as we've been away,
it's suddenly all changed. And we're now in asituation where everything is upside-down again.
DN (09:10):
Uh-huh. OF
great. We overindulge, we basically overdid it.DN: Yeah.
OF (09:16):
For four weeks. Now we're on a strict diet, trying to get back into our routines.
Now that we're back, it makes me think about: what is the theme of last year? Because it does (09:21):
undefined
feel like the close of the year is a watershedmoment in China. In the past, this bonus episode
has always had a title.DN: Uh-huh.
OF (09:35):
In Season 01, it was ‘Community’. That was where I was thinking:
Is Mosaic of China a community? And then lastseason, it was more about ‘Connectivity’.
DN (09:44):
Right. OF
all ‘connected’ in some way. When I was thinkingabout what word would encapsulate our experience
from this first half of Season 03, I thinkthe word that comes to mind is ‘Codependency’.
Yes. OF
where - in our hardest moments - you were focusedon certain things that you could do to help,
(10:08):
I was focused on other things, and there wasthis symbiotic relationship which you can call
‘codependency’.DN: Right.
OF (10:14):
If you look at the word itself, it's not a good thing. Because we should really be more
independent. But we were thrust into thiskind of codependency. And if I expand that,
that's kind of how it has felt with thisrump of international people who are left
from these times here in China. We have beenthrough a lot these last 2.5-3 years. And I
(10:38):
do feel that we have this kind of codependencytogether. Where we're reliant on each other.
DN (10:44):
And we made it through together. OF
we all have similar stories. That initself is kind of nice. And now that
things are going to open up, it's completelyperverse but part of me is going to miss that.
Yes. OF
wanting China to open up, it's been the dream.And at the same time now we're going to get people
(11:05):
coming in? To ‘our China’? It's such a weirdfeeling, which I hope is just in this very moment.
I think it is. OF
and then there is more of this interminglingof visitors and locals, then it'll be like "Oh,
no this is a joyous thing.” But right now I thinkwe are so institutionalised in this codependency.
(11:28):
Mmm. OF
title of this bonus episode, it’s the feeling thatwe have all been through. And it is not a good
thing. There are things that we can reflect on,in a positive way. But opening up is a good thing.
Yes. OF
just bounce that question right back to you.You know, you asked me at the beginning of this,
(11:48):
how would I describe my feelings about thismonth-long trip we took? What about you?
Well I think we hadn't been able to leave for so long beforehand,
we really wanted to build up a time where wemissed coming back to Shanghai to our home.
OF (12:05):
Yeah. DN
we were ready. And we really wanted to get backto our home and our life, and my job here. We were
just… we were ready. And that was a good feeling.OF: Yeah.
DN (12:16):
To miss Shanghai. And to want to come back to it. And - it’ll be the ‘new norm’, but - coming
back to a Shanghai that's open again, as it wasbefore all of the issues we had coming into it.
OF (12:29):
Yeah. Totally. You're absolutely right, yeah. And you know, without leaving you can't get that
feeling. That's the point, right? I mean,you talked about coming back to our routines,
that's a good segue for me to ask you about yourinput into this project. How would you describe
how you and I work together on Mosaic of China?DN: Well, I guess I'm your graphic designer,
(12:51):
you're my boss.OF: Heh heh.
DN (12:52):
I have to please you. But I do think part of the reason I liked the name ‘Mosaic’ is it offered
something visual to latch onto, and we landed onthese hexagon tiles as the theme. It's obviously
evolved, we now have a new cartoonish picture ofyou that I did. You know, it's an outlet for me.
I am definitely not a professional designer, butI do dabble in it. And it's forced me to hone my
(13:15):
skills in that. I've actually taken some onlineclasses to get a little better. So I enjoy it.
It gives me something to do while I'm sitting onthe couch watching TV with you over the weekend.
OF (13:24):
Yes, the secret's out, we do not have a very exciting life.
DN (13:29):
Invite us out, people! OF
We’ll come out… maybe. OF
I should say, you know, we didn't really explainyour job at Disney that well. Your background,
in terms of creativity, is dance.DN: Yes. Yeah, I started as a dancer
at Disney many, many, many years ago. Andmy background is not in design or art.
(13:51):
It was always a hobby. And now I get tokind of stretch that ‘talent’, I guess.
OF (13:54):
Oooh! DN
Eurgh. But let's turn the table back to you. Canyou describe to me a little bit how the process
for Mosaic of China has changed coming into thethird season, and going onto the fourth season?
The video part is entirely new. DN
Well the transcripts are not new, the transcripts I started last season already. But…
DN (14:17):
Putting them on the video though… OF
videos, I had all the elements already. Because Ihad all of the images that I got from the guest,
I had a video platform, and I had the transcript.So all I had to do was to put them all together,
which is what I've done. It's a new skillsetto make videos rather than just the audio,
(14:40):
so that's been fun for me. And it has also allowedme to edit down those videos to make these little
short video versions of each episode, whichare just like four or five minutes long. And
people who perhaps haven't heard the entireepisode will maybe watch this mini version of
the podcast. And I've attracted more peopleto the main podcast through that process,
(15:02):
which I didn't realise that I was going to do. SoI'm just adding more and more onto this podcast.
It really is now a full-time job.DN: Right.
OF (15:12):
Which is good in a way, because that's why I started this project. It was to keep
me away from mischief. But when doI stop? So the process has evolved,
I get more and more obsessive, more and moreinto it. Is that necessarily a good thing?
I don't know. But it's still fun for now.DN: As long as it's fun. And you seem to get
faster at doing it. But you do keep adding more.And with that in mind, what’s coming up next?
(15:39):
I've been on a student visa all this time, which has been great. And
a shout-out to a past guest, Chang Chihyun: he was my professor. I graduated now with (15:43):
undefined
my Masters of Modern Chinese Studies. Withgraduation, I basically had to find a job.
DN (15:53):
Yay! OF
now I'm on a work visa. I'm working with a friendof mine 刘健 [Liú Jiàn] in his company ‘Hand in
Hand.’ So now that will be part of my activitieshere in China, which is very different to before.
Also the month away has spurred me intowanting more of that. You and I met in Hong
Kong. At that time I had my own company,and I was jet-setting around the world,
(16:15):
and then you and I would do trips together, andthen I would go for my own trips. I really want
to go back into that lifestyle again, andmaybe sniff around for some new projects.
Not at the expense of Mosaic of China. But I dowant to expand back into my other identities.
Right. You're in Asia 20 years or so, right? OF
(16:36):
Singapore, where I was six years. Or Japan,where I first lived in Asia, all those years
ago. What that means is, nothing will change withMosaic of China, in terms of the content. What I
think will change will be the release schedule.Because that's what keeps me so busy: editing
down many hours of audio; trying to get all of thephotos together; put them into videos; I'm writing
(17:00):
up transcripts… If I was to carry on releasingepisodes every week, then I would be stuck behind
my desk. And now that borders have been reopened…DN: … And you have a job…
OF (17:09):
… And I have a job, that's the last thing I want to do. Or can do, honestly speaking.
DN (17:15):
Right. OF
episodes every other week, whether it's a kindof three-weeks-on/one-week-off, I don't know.
It's also the case that everyone else is goingto be completely busy with this new life as well.
And they're not going to have time to listenevery week either. So hopefully it will be in
line with ‘China in 2023’. You know, you and Iare looking at each other going “I don't know”.
(17:39):
Right. OF
gonna get, you don't know to what extent your roleis going to change. It's the same story with me.
What I do know is that this project means a lot tome. And I can't wait to release the second half of
Season 03. There are 15 amazing episodes comingup. I haven't yet started editing any of them,
(18:01):
so I don't know when I'm going to start torelease them. But release them I will. I will
continue to work with you. And I look forwardto also being part of the wider community of
listeners here in China. Now that we can meetfreely, I am looking forward to the next event
in Shanghai and hopefully doing more across Chinaas well. Here’s looking forward to what I hope
(18:26):
will be a great year ahead.DN: Thank you, Oscar.
[Outro]OF:
Thanks very much again to Denny for givingup some of the time on Sunday which he could
otherwise have spent sitting next to me on thecouch watching TV. And thanks to you of course
once again for listening. I try not to look toooften at the statistics behind who is listening,
(18:48):
and on what platform. But seeing as it was thebeginning of the year, I tallied everything up
and I’m super proud to announce that we’vejust surpassed 250,000 downloads. Around
60% of that number now comes from peoplelistening to the version uploaded in China,
around 30% listen to the international version,and the remaining 10% is shared between the
(19:14):
PREMIUM versions of the show and the various videoversions that I mentioned in my chat with Denny.
Altogether that’s a quarter of a million downloadsover the three-year lifespan of this project.
It was around the midway point of Season 01 whenlife in China suddenly and unexpectedly changed
with the outbreak of COVID-19. So there’sa kind of neat symmetry that it’s at the
(19:39):
midway point of Season 03 that we’re seeing Chinasuddenly and unexpectedly change back again. But
one thing that won’t change is my gratitudeto you for being there all the way through.
I’ll be taking some more time off over ChineseNew Year, so I wish you all 新年快乐 [xīnnián kuàilè]
and 恭喜发财 [gōngxǐ fācái], and I’ll see youagain here for the second half of Season 03.
(20:01):
[Easter Egg]OF:
Was that OK with you?DN: Well I guess we'll find
out in the edit.OF: Yep.
[Trailer]OF: The secret's out,
we do not have a very exciting life.DN: Invite us out, people!
[Intro]OF: Welcome to
Mosaic of China, a podcast about people who are
making their mark in China.I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
Happy new year! We're in that strange limboperiod between New Year and Chinese New Year,
(00:26):
where nothing really gets startedproperly in this part of the world.
But seeing as it's been so many weeks sincethe last episode - which was Episode 15 with
Dajiang - I figured I should release something newthis week. In the past I've always invited another
China-based podcaster to interview me for thesespecial mid-season bonus episodes. But this time,
(00:50):
I've invited none other than DennyNewell to join me behind the mic.
You hear me say his name at the end of everysingle episode, so now you finally get to hear
his voice. And it's about time, seeing as it wasDenny who actually came up with the name 'Mosaic'
when we were brainstorming ideas behind thispodcast. I have so much more to thank Denny for
(01:15):
all his help behind the scenes of this project,and you'll hear some of that coming right up.
I'll be back again at the end of the episode withanother little announcement. But in the meantime,
I hope you enjoy the spectacle that is me andDenny trying to have a normal conversation.
[Main]OF:
Hello Denny.DN: Hello Oscar.
OF (01:36):
I’ve decided that for this season's bonus episode, it's going to be a
conversation between you and me. You beingmy chief image designer on Mosaic of China.
You also happen to be my partner and husband.DN: Oh yeah! I’m that too,
yes. I do all of those things.OF: I really don't know how this
is going to go. Because we've been togethernow for 10 years, which means that we don't
(02:00):
really communicate in full sentences at all.It's more like grunts and other animal noises.
So let's see what kind of conversation we'regonna have. It's gonna be as much a surprise
for us as it's gonna be for anyone listening.DN: Yeah, I think it will be. I don't know how
this is going to go. It’s unrehearsed, everybody.OF: I should explain that this is happening
(02:22):
because of a suggestion byMax Cassidy. Hello, Max.
DN (02:25):
Hello Max. Thank you… I think? OF
would want to hear, and he said “Oh, youdefinitely have to have a chat with Denny
at some point.” Let me, I guess first ofall, introduce you to anyone listening.
All right. OF
entourage. You're my entourage of one. You'remy key supporter in this whole endeavour.
(02:48):
I look to you, because you are someone who I seeas possibly the most capable person that I know.
You're just a fully functional human being. It's arevelation to me that there are people walking the
planet like you, who actually can just do things.You know, for me, I can be like that, but only in
(03:09):
short stints. I have phases where things areworking well, and I'm in full flow. But then I
have phases where the wheels completely come off,and everything starts piling up around me. So just
to be around someone like you who is consistent,and who is reliable, it’s like living with a god.
Oh wow! OF
(03:31):
want to say a big thank you for just being thereas a symbol of how people just get **** done.
Oh well thank you. I don't know that I live up to all of
those accolades, but I'll take them. Thank you.OF: Well, apart from being the designer of the
logos of Mosaic of China…DN: Yes.
OD (03:48):
…What is your day job? DN
for Shanghai Disney Resort Entertainment. So myteam takes care of all the live entertainment
that happens at Shanghai Disney Resort (03:58):
the parades, the shows, all the seasonal events,
all the decor. So yeah, it's a pretty fun job.OF: And you are the reason we are here. You
got the job here in Disney Shanghai. We met inHong Kong when you were at the Hong Kong park.
DN (04:13):
Yes, I was Creative Director there for Entertainment, and got the call to
apply - and then ended up getting the job -to move to that same role here in Shanghai.
And I have since been promoted to this new role.OF: Thanks to you, we had a great guest in Season
01, which was Philippe Gas.DN: Yes.
OF (04:29):
He, at the time, was the President of the Shanghai Disney Resort. And getting him
was one of the things that really spurredthe entire project along. Because when I
was first asking people to be a part of theproject back then - when it didn't exist,
and they didn't quite know what they were saying“Yes” to - the fact that Philippe was on board so
soon, thanks to your introduction, really helpedkickstart the entire project. So that's a bit of
(04:55):
a secret weapon that I had there, thanks to you.DN: Well, you know Philippe because of me. But it
was your idea - your plan for the whole podcast- that sold him on wanting to be a part of it.
So I can't take credit for that, I think thepodcast - and you - should take credit for that.
OK, well we have to stop being so sickeningly nice to each other.
Before we stop, I said that you are capable, butI think it's the creative side that obviously has
(05:19):
inspired me. You know, when you and I met, I wasmuch more in a business realm. I was very much in
that zone. Being with you has opened up my eyes tohow you can harness your own creativity, and do it
in a positive way. That's the thing about you, youare a positive person. It's something which me,
as a Brit, I am predisposed to be cynical about.You are the bright and shiny Californian, and I am
(05:45):
the twisted depressive Brit in the relationship.But it's something where I see the phrase ‘Putting
good energy out there’. And I see the way thatwhat you do engenders positivity in other people.
I've only learned a fraction of that, but I willcontinue trying. Because it's something where I
(06:06):
used to see it as something which was a bit fake.And you know, that kind of toxic positivity now
that people talk about.DN: Right.
But for you, it's entirely genuine. So if I am at all positive these days,
it's basically thanks to you.DN: That’s not the truth. No, that's
not true at all. But thank you. OK, let's turn thetables, we’re supposed to be talking about you.
(06:28):
So I'll introduce you, Oscar, how about that?OF: Well, maybe what you can introduce is what
you see in terms of how I work onthis project. What do you observe?
DN (06:39):
Right. Well I know that when you first came up with the idea, it was really a way to continue
meeting interesting people. And I was proud ofthat. You came up with an idea to keep yourself
busy, and it's really become a big part of ourlives. And has expanded not only your network,
but my network, and our network as a couple.You know, we've talked about friends coming
(07:00):
and going - especially lately in Shanghai - andthe few friends that we still have in Shanghai,
are mostly because of Mosaic of China.OF: Yeah.
It's really kept us afloat, and kept us as sane as we can be during some difficult times.
OF (07:13):
Yeah. Yeah, I do agree with that. I think part of my worry in coming up to Shanghai - when
I first moved up here to be with you - was“How am I going to develop an identity for
myself?” You know, I didn’t just want to wantto latch on to all of your friends. So yeah,
it is interesting how it has become this vehiclefor me to keep in the traffic of new people. And
(07:35):
it's not like everyone who I interview becomes ourfriend. And it's not like every friend we have has
come from the show.DN: Right.
But it's just something which makes sure that both of us keep our eyes outwardly focused,
and not too inwardly focused. Which has been veryeasy to do during this last year, especially.
DN (07:51):
Definitely, I do think it kept us sane in that regard, and helped us expand our
friends circle beyond where we probablywould have been without it. Definitely.
OF (08:01):
Yeah. DN
thing we wanted to talk about is, you and I justgot back from our first trip out of the Chinese
mainland in almost three years. Back to the Statesfor me, and we saw some of your family as well.
So how would you describe yourfeelings about that trip? Like,
what does it mean to you, what was it like?OF: I mean, at the beginning it was like "What
(08:24):
the hell?” When we left, it was when things werevery unstable down our street. And so we figured
“Ach you know what, we've waited three years forthis trip. Let's not leave it to any chance, let’s
just bring the trip forward.” And we were out.DN: Right.
Because things change so quickly. I mean, that probably is my answer to you.
The feeling I get from that trip now is, it's areminder about how fast things change in China.
DN (08:47):
Right. OF
trip, people were asking us about what it'slike on the ground in China. And by that time,
we basically had to say “Well, we don’t know!”DN: Right.
OF (08:58):
Because we left China, and it was still ‘zero-COVID’. And as we've been away,
it's suddenly all changed. And we're now in asituation where everything is upside-down again.
DN (09:10):
Uh-huh. OF
great. We overindulge, we basically overdid it.DN: Yeah.
OF (09:16):
For four weeks. Now we're on a strict diet, trying to get back into our routines.
Now that we're back, it makes me think about: what is the theme of last year? Because it does (09:21):
undefined
feel like the close of the year is a watershedmoment in China. In the past, this bonus episode
has always had a title.DN: Uh-huh.
OF (09:35):
In Season 01, it was ‘Community’. That was where I was thinking:
Is Mosaic of China a community? And then lastseason, it was more about ‘Connectivity’.
DN (09:44):
Right. OF
all ‘connected’ in some way. When I was thinkingabout what word would encapsulate our experience
from this first half of Season 03, I thinkthe word that comes to mind is ‘Codependency’.
Yes. OF
where - in our hardest moments - you were focusedon certain things that you could do to help,
(10:08):
I was focused on other things, and there wasthis symbiotic relationship which you can call
‘codependency’.DN: Right.
OF (10:14):
If you look at the word itself, it's not a good thing. Because we should really be more
independent. But we were thrust into thiskind of codependency. And if I expand that,
that's kind of how it has felt with thisrump of international people who are left
from these times here in China. We have beenthrough a lot these last 2.5-3 years. And I
(10:38):
do feel that we have this kind of codependencytogether. Where we're reliant on each other.
DN (10:44):
And we made it through together. OF
we all have similar stories. That initself is kind of nice. And now that
things are going to open up, it's completelyperverse but part of me is going to miss that.
Yes. OF
wanting China to open up, it's been the dream.And at the same time now we're going to get people
(11:05):
coming in? To ‘our China’? It's such a weirdfeeling, which I hope is just in this very moment.
I think it is. OF
and then there is more of this interminglingof visitors and locals, then it'll be like "Oh,
no this is a joyous thing.” But right now I thinkwe are so institutionalised in this codependency.
(11:28):
Mmm. OF
title of this bonus episode, it’s the feeling thatwe have all been through. And it is not a good
thing. There are things that we can reflect on,in a positive way. But opening up is a good thing.
Yes. OF
just bounce that question right back to you.You know, you asked me at the beginning of this,
(11:48):
how would I describe my feelings about thismonth-long trip we took? What about you?
Well I think we hadn't been able to leave for so long beforehand,
we really wanted to build up a time where wemissed coming back to Shanghai to our home.
OF (12:05):
Yeah. DN
we were ready. And we really wanted to get backto our home and our life, and my job here. We were
just… we were ready. And that was a good feeling.OF: Yeah.
DN (12:16):
To miss Shanghai. And to want to come back to it. And - it’ll be the ‘new norm’, but - coming
back to a Shanghai that's open again, as it wasbefore all of the issues we had coming into it.
OF (12:29):
Yeah. Totally. You're absolutely right, yeah. And you know, without leaving you can't get that
feeling. That's the point, right? I mean,you talked about coming back to our routines,
that's a good segue for me to ask you about yourinput into this project. How would you describe
how you and I work together on Mosaic of China?DN: Well, I guess I'm your graphic designer,
(12:51):
you're my boss.OF: Heh heh.
DN (12:52):
I have to please you. But I do think part of the reason I liked the name ‘Mosaic’ is it offered
something visual to latch onto, and we landed onthese hexagon tiles as the theme. It's obviously
evolved, we now have a new cartoonish picture ofyou that I did. You know, it's an outlet for me.
I am definitely not a professional designer, butI do dabble in it. And it's forced me to hone my
(13:15):
skills in that. I've actually taken some onlineclasses to get a little better. So I enjoy it.
It gives me something to do while I'm sitting onthe couch watching TV with you over the weekend.
OF (13:24):
Yes, the secret's out, we do not have a very exciting life.
DN (13:29):
Invite us out, people! OF
We’ll come out… maybe. OF
I should say, you know, we didn't really explainyour job at Disney that well. Your background,
in terms of creativity, is dance.DN: Yes. Yeah, I started as a dancer
at Disney many, many, many years ago. Andmy background is not in design or art.
(13:51):
It was always a hobby. And now I get tokind of stretch that ‘talent’, I guess.
OF (13:54):
Oooh! DN
Eurgh. But let's turn the table back to you. Canyou describe to me a little bit how the process
for Mosaic of China has changed coming into thethird season, and going onto the fourth season?
The video part is entirely new. DN
Well the transcripts are not new, the transcripts I started last season already. But…
DN (14:17):
Putting them on the video though… OF
videos, I had all the elements already. Because Ihad all of the images that I got from the guest,
I had a video platform, and I had the transcript.So all I had to do was to put them all together,
which is what I've done. It's a new skillsetto make videos rather than just the audio,
(14:40):
so that's been fun for me. And it has also allowedme to edit down those videos to make these little
short video versions of each episode, whichare just like four or five minutes long. And
people who perhaps haven't heard the entireepisode will maybe watch this mini version of
the podcast. And I've attracted more peopleto the main podcast through that process,
(15:02):
which I didn't realise that I was going to do. SoI'm just adding more and more onto this podcast.
It really is now a full-time job.DN: Right.
OF (15:12):
Which is good in a way, because that's why I started this project. It was to keep
me away from mischief. But when doI stop? So the process has evolved,
I get more and more obsessive, more and moreinto it. Is that necessarily a good thing?
I don't know. But it's still fun for now.DN: As long as it's fun. And you seem to get
faster at doing it. But you do keep adding more.And with that in mind, what’s coming up next?
(15:39):
I've been on a student visa all this time, which has been great. And
a shout-out to a past guest, Chang Chihyun: he was my professor. I graduated now with (15:43):
undefined
my Masters of Modern Chinese Studies. Withgraduation, I basically had to find a job.
DN (15:53):
Yay! OF
now I'm on a work visa. I'm working with a friendof mine 刘健 [Liú Jiàn] in his company ‘Hand in
Hand.’ So now that will be part of my activitieshere in China, which is very different to before.
Also the month away has spurred me intowanting more of that. You and I met in Hong
Kong. At that time I had my own company,and I was jet-setting around the world,
(16:15):
and then you and I would do trips together, andthen I would go for my own trips. I really want
to go back into that lifestyle again, andmaybe sniff around for some new projects.
Not at the expense of Mosaic of China. But I dowant to expand back into my other identities.
Right. You're in Asia 20 years or so, right? OF
(16:36):
Singapore, where I was six years. Or Japan,where I first lived in Asia, all those years
ago. What that means is, nothing will change withMosaic of China, in terms of the content. What I
think will change will be the release schedule.Because that's what keeps me so busy: editing
down many hours of audio; trying to get all of thephotos together; put them into videos; I'm writing
(17:00):
up transcripts… If I was to carry on releasingepisodes every week, then I would be stuck behind
my desk. And now that borders have been reopened…DN: … And you have a job…
OF (17:09):
… And I have a job, that's the last thing I want to do. Or can do, honestly speaking.
DN (17:15):
Right. OF
episodes every other week, whether it's a kindof three-weeks-on/one-week-off, I don't know.
It's also the case that everyone else is goingto be completely busy with this new life as well.
And they're not going to have time to listenevery week either. So hopefully it will be in
line with ‘China in 2023’. You know, you and Iare looking at each other going “I don't know”.
(17:39):
Right. OF
gonna get, you don't know to what extent your roleis going to change. It's the same story with me.
What I do know is that this project means a lot tome. And I can't wait to release the second half of
Season 03. There are 15 amazing episodes comingup. I haven't yet started editing any of them,
(18:01):
so I don't know when I'm going to start torelease them. But release them I will. I will
continue to work with you. And I look forwardto also being part of the wider community of
listeners here in China. Now that we can meetfreely, I am looking forward to the next event
in Shanghai and hopefully doing more across Chinaas well. Here’s looking forward to what I hope
(18:26):
will be a great year ahead.DN: Thank you, Oscar.
[Outro]OF:
Thanks very much again to Denny for givingup some of the time on Sunday which he could
otherwise have spent sitting next to me on thecouch watching TV. And thanks to you of course
once again for listening. I try not to look toooften at the statistics behind who is listening,
(18:48):
and on what platform. But seeing as it was thebeginning of the year, I tallied everything up
and I’m super proud to announce that we’vejust surpassed 250,000 downloads. Around
60% of that number now comes from peoplelistening to the version uploaded in China,
around 30% listen to the international version,and the remaining 10% is shared between the
(19:14):
PREMIUM versions of the show and the various videoversions that I mentioned in my chat with Denny.
Altogether that’s a quarter of a million downloadsover the three-year lifespan of this project.
It was around the midway point of Season 01 whenlife in China suddenly and unexpectedly changed
with the outbreak of COVID-19. So there’sa kind of neat symmetry that it’s at the
(19:39):
midway point of Season 03 that we’re seeing Chinasuddenly and unexpectedly change back again. But
one thing that won’t change is my gratitudeto you for being there all the way through.
I’ll be taking some more time off over ChineseNew Year, so I wish you all 新年快乐 [xīnnián kuàilè]
and 恭喜发财 [gōngxǐ fācái], and I’ll see youagain here for the second half of Season 03.
(20:01):
[Easter Egg]OF:
Was that OK with you?DN: Well I guess we'll find
out in the edit.OF: Yep.
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