May 22, 2023 • 41 mins
To many, the image of an airline pilot conjures up thoughts of confident commanders in crisp tailored uniforms, living a life of excitement, romance and adventure. But what about the life of an airline captain in China? In today's episode with Michael Hundegger, we have a good-humoured conversation about the culture of commercial aviation in China. Yes, there's still the romance and the adventure. Of course there's also the procedures, the strict hierarchy, and the grunt-work. But more than that, there's a fascinating window into the nature of authority, discipline and education in China. The episode also includes a catch-up interview with: Vittorio Franzese from Season 02 Episode 27 https://mosaicofchina.com/season-02-episode-27-vittorio-franzese 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 00:54 - Part 1 22:29 - Part 2 32:20 - Outro 36:06 - Catch-Up Interview Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at: https://mosaicofchina.com/season-03-episode-21-michael-hundegger Join the community: Instagram https://instagram.com/oscology LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/mosaicofchina Facebook https://facebook.com/mosaicofchina WeChat https://mosaicofchina.com/wechat
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Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
[Trailer]MH: If nobody understands it, why do it?
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
I was looking forward to doing today’s episode,because I thought it would be really fun to
(00:23):
hear about the life of an international pilothere in China. And I wasn’t disappointed,
that’s exactly what it was, and I can’twait for you to hear it. But more than that,
my conversation with today’s guest alsorevealed such an interesting window into the
nature of authority, discipline and educationin China. So let’s not waste any more time,
(00:49):
fasten your seatbelts and let’s get readyfor today’s show.
[Part 1]OF: Thank you so much Michael. It's great
to have you here.MH: Thank you.
OF (00:59):
And I always like to pronounce people's names properly. It's Michael Hundegger, is
it?MH: It's ‘Michael’.
Michael. MH
Michael Hundegger. MH
That sounds like a German name. Where are you from?
MH (01:13):
Actually, I would say I'm confused. Because I'm born in Austria, by Austrian parents.
But I'm holding a Swedish passport, my motherexiled me to Sweden when I was 13. Then I
married a Danish girl and we moved to Denmark.And now I'm divorced, and I'm living in Shanghai.
OF (01:34):
Fair enough. This is it, you ask a man about his name and you get this kind of story.
MH (01:38):
Yeah. OF
conversation in this way. Before we go anyfurther, what is the object that you have
brought that in some way describes your lifein China?
You want to see it now? OF
It's actually a piece of uniform. I call it ‘my dictators hat’.
OF (01:56):
OK, why don't you describe what you've just brought out?
MH (02:00):
Well, it's my uniform hat. And we got it issued when when we started. And I've haven't
seen anyone wearing the hat.OF: Really.
It’s kind of ugly. So I transformed it into a candy bowl. Alternatively chips
bowl, or fruit bowl.OF: And you've never worn it for work.
I’ve never wanted for work. OF
(02:23):
Yeah. OF
hat?MH: That hat is the hat of an airline captain.
OF (02:30):
Right. So we’re talking to a pilot today. MH
And I'm thinking about when I see pilots. They don't always wear the hat, but they at
least have it tucked under their arm as they'rewalking to customs, no?
MH (02:43):
Well I started flying many years ago in Scandinavian Airlines. And at that time, we
had to bring the hat. Actually, it was supposedto be a piece of our emergency equipment.
OF (02:54):
Huh? MH
we would put our hat on. Because then everybodywould see “Oh, that's the Captain, that’s
the copilot.”OF: Yes.
MH (03:04):
But that changed. Nobody wanted to wear the hat. And now nobody has the hat.
OF (03:10):
Isn't it funny? So it actually came from this idea of authority bias, where people
are more likely to follow the instructionsof authority.
MH (03:18):
Yes, yes. OF
the uniform itself is enough. You don't needthe hat.
It should be, yes. And now, you know the yellow vests?
OF (03:25):
Yes. MH
put my vest on.OF: Yes. That has the same kind of meaning…
MH (03:31):
Yeah, yeah. OF
head.MH: Yeah. And yeah, I don't wanna look bad.
OF (03:36):
OK, you have a sweet tooth and you’re vain.
MH (03:39):
Yes. OF
carefully to us. I mean, presumably you neverwore it flying anyway.
No, no. We would only wear it walking to and from the aircraft.
OF (03:48):
Right. Well, you're here in China as a pilot. So I guess the first obvious question
would be, how the hell did that happen?MH: I got a good offer here. And I always
wanted to have an adventure. I'm reachingretirement age, in my old company I could
have retired three years ago. And I'm stillhere. And I just signed a new contract for
(04:10):
the next three years.OF: Mmm-hmm.
MH (04:11):
So that's why I'm here
coincided with a time when the airline industryin Europe would have been suffering, right?
Yes, there was put a lot of pressure on us
working more, getting less. Our pensions werecut, and so on. And that made me a little
(04:32):
bit tired of it.OF: Mmm.
So when this offer came in, I said “Yeah”. OF
**** had at that time the best contract on the market. Probably the best contract
in the world.OF: Really?
Yes. Expansion. Expansion, and lack of experienced staff. The expansion in China
is so huge. When I came, **** had around 50aircraft. Today, six years later, it's 130.
(04:58):
This year, another 20 come. Everyone is expanding,and they don't have enough experienced pilots.
They wanted to attract as many as possible,I think they have the highest percentage of
foreign pilots. We are about 130, out of 1,200pilots.
OF (05:15):
Wow. MH
Hmm. And how is it subdivided then? I mean, are you just one big bunch of pilots?
Or do you have specific units?MH: They have made five units, that are in
competition with each other. And foreign pilotsare in the foreign division.
Ah. MH
(05:35):
allocated to us. A handful, 30-40. They havegood knowledge of English, and so on.
When you say “Compete" then, how do you compete with the other units?
MH (05:45):
Safety wise. We have a flight recorder, and the flight recorder will record all kinds
of parameters of the flight.OF: Mmm-hmm.
Altitude, speed, sync rate, and so on, and so on.
OF (05:55):
This is like the ‘black box’ that we hear about with air crash investigations,
right?MH: Yes, yes. And this goes via data link
directly to the company. And if we fly a littlebit too fast; or a little bit too slow; or
we make some small small small mistakes, right?We have a taxiing speed on ground that’s
supposed to be maximum 10 knots. But if weturn with 11, 12 knots, that would be recorded
(06:19):
as…OF: A mistake.
MH (06:21):
As a mistake. OF
errors between pilots, they all get addedup, and then you compete as these five units
between each other?MH: Apparently, yes. I don't care about it,
so I don't think so much about it. But apparentlythere is a competition.
OF (06:36):
But then do you get some kind of official prize, or an official…?
MH (06:39):
No. You only get individual punishment. OF
me start by asking about the actual mistakes,because this is one of the things that I'm
always fascinated by when it comes to pilots.Because we're human, right? We make human
mistakes.MH: We do. Every day.
OF (06:57):
This is so worrying. But you've mentioned already that you might get a little bit too
fast. Like, is that the usual mistake thatyou would make?
MH (07:05):
Yes, that will be one of the mistakes. The airspace is divided into different altitudes.
And here in China below 10,000 feet altitude,the maximum speed is 250 knots.
OF (07:16):
Is that a world standard? MH
too. But then the controller can give us permission.OF: Mmm.
MH (07:26):
“Speed up.” Maybe we can speed up to 300 knots. Here, it’s 250 knots.
OF (07:30):
No matter what. MH
Mmm-hmm. MH
a big fire onboard and I need to get downon the ground, I wouldn't care about the 250
knots.OF: Right.
MH (07:40):
And then they can punish me for speeding. But I will tell them “Well, I saved 190
lives”, right?OF: Yeah.
But if I fly 255 knots, I would get a tick mark. If I fly 265 knots, I would get
a question, “Why did you fly fast?”OF: OK.
And that would probably cause some kind of incident. or event. And maybe there would
be some money deducted.OF: From your salary?
(08:01):
From my salary, yeah. OF
There’s a price list for everything. And here, it's a lot about following standard
operating procedures.OF: Mmm.
You have to follow those. And every time there is one little incident somewhere, the
CAAC will demand that the standard operatingprocedures be changed. So we have changes
to the procedures all the time.OF: Right. Because a lot of what you're saying,
(08:25):
it’s measured through your airline. Whendoes it get escalated to the CAAC? Which I'm
assuming means the ‘Aviation Commission’,is it?
This is the Central Aviation Administration of China.
OF (08:36):
Aha. MH
into everything.OF: Ah.
MH (08:42):
If we write a report, the CAAC will see it.
OF (08:47):
Mmm. MH
Recorder, which is also listened to. And wehave an open mic in the cockpit, which - for
some specific flights - someone sits and listensto what we're doing.
In real time? MH
Mmm. MH
maybe I will be grounded for a week and setto study the standard operating procedures.
(09:09):
And this is - as a passenger - kind of what I want to hear, right?
MH (09:12):
Yeah. OF
this is the same thing that happens anywherearound the world. So you tell me, in which
parts is it actually quite different to whatyou've been used to.
It is the same everywhere when it comes to structure, standard operating procedures,
safety awareness. What is not the same ispunishment for mistakes. Other aviation authorities
(09:36):
have non-punitive reporting systems. So ifI make a mistake, I've report it, and everybody
else learns from it. Here we learn from thepunishment.
OF (09:47):
That seems like a very legalistic way that sometimes China can work.
MH (09:51):
It is, yes. To me, it's a big difference in the mentality. Here when somebody tells
people to do something, they say “Yes.”And back in the West, if somebody tells me
to do something, I say “Why?”OF: This is classic, isn't it?
Yeah. OF
of your previous employers in Europe got tiredof miserable old pilots like you, right?
(10:15):
Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Lazy, old, expensive. So…
OF (10:19):
Which is better? I mean, presumably it has the same outcome. Or..?
MH (10:24):
I think it has the same outcome. In my industry, at least. For your personal wellbeing,
I prefer the other way.OF: Right.
Not having to look over my shoulder, and being afraid that somebody writes a report.
Or that if I make a mistake that I will bepunished, that maybe my career ends.
OF (10:44):
Mmm. You live with this sort of constant ‘drip, drip, drip’ of feeling uneasy,
and being punished.MH: Yeah.
And that is kind of how it works in China. It's this constant “I know what you're doing.
Don't do anything wrong.” It's that wholeway that we live our lives day to day here.
MH (11:00):
Yes, yes. It's all being recorded. OF
record because you want to have that blackbox for investigations.
Yes. Most of the unionised airlines have an agreement that the voice recorder is used
for investigation purposes only. But otherwise,they use it for trends.
OF (11:18):
Mmm. MH
And even then, it would have been anonymised, right?
MH (11:22):
It would be anonymised. General. How often would the general population of pilots do
this, and that?OF: Yes.
Do we have to change our standard operating procedures or not?
OF (11:30):
Yes. Across the whole data set. Like “Right, how do we in general improve standards?”
MH (11:34):
Yes. OF
for this one mistake?”MH: No.
OF (11:39):
Yeah, so interesting. OK, well I mean, we're talking about the culture of these airlines.
So why don't we then talk about the culturebetween you and your co-pilot? What's their
rank?MH: They are first officers.
First officers. MH
Chinese crew.OF: Right.
MH (11:55):
Chinese first officers, Chinese cabin crew.
OF (11:58):
So talk me through what happens in the cockpit between you two. Let's say, you've
already taken off. Most of the work is doneby the computer, right?
MH (12:08):
Yes. We are monitoring. OF
Imagine you sit in front of your computer screen, and you have to monitor your computer
doing the correct thing at all times, right?OF: Yeah.
And depending on my first officer's knowledge of English, we are chitchatting. I'm an old
fart, right? So we don't have much in common.OF: Yeah right.
But many of them are interested. Interested in life in Denmark or Austria or wherever.
(12:32):
They are interested in how many kids I have,and so on and so on. So we chitchat. But they
are studying. When they join the airline,they are First Officer Level Alpha 1.
OF (12:45):
OK. MH
B1, B2, C1, C2. And after they have reachedthe level of C2 first officer, they can upgrade
to Captain A. And..OF: And then there are different hierarchy
of captains too?MH: Yes, there are three: A, B and C.
So you are..? MH
(13:07):
we all start as Level B Captains. And whenwe have been flying 500 hours within the airline,
we normally are upgraded to C Level. Becausewe are experienced. But these first officers,
for every upgrade they have - they have fiveupgrades - they have to do oral tests, they
have to do written tests, and they have todo simulated tests.
(13:28):
Constantly, basically. MH
studying. And they are really good students.OF: Mmm.
MH (13:34):
They know the manuals. If I have any question, I just asked them.
OF (13:39):
Which wouldn't have been the case for you at that age?
MH (13:42):
No. We know where to find information. OF
We do not learn the information by heart. OF
Right.MH: Yes. That is probably the schooling system
difference already there.OF: Yes. I think we would tend to put more
emphasis on the problem-solving skills.MH: Yes.
OF (14:00):
Whereas they would put emphasis on the actual knowing of information.
MH (14:03):
Yes. And they put emphasis on the knowing, and not on the understanding.
OF (14:08):
Ah. But I guess that's a good thing about why - when you are flying with a first officer
who was brought up in that education system- you can in some way impart that kind of
sixth sense to them.MH: I try to do that. I'm not an instructor,
so I don't try to instruct them. But I tryto share my experience.
Mmm. MH
(14:31):
years.OF: OK.
MH (14:32):
I’ve been flying 35 years, I have 19,000 flight hours. So I'm quite experienced.
OF (14:38):
Yeah. MH
It’s instinct. MH
they do it mechanically.OF: Mmm. But again, that would be the case
if you weren't flying in Europe, right? Imean, that's how you do start.
MH (14:53):
Yes. Yes, but we were taught to feel. “Oh, you have a little gust here during
landing. Try to feel it, and fly the aircraftall the way down until the wheels hit the
ground”. Here, sometimes they are taught“At 50 feet, you do this. And you do that.”
OF (15:10):
Mmm-hmm. Interesting. Going back to you and the first officer then, as a commander
what are the things that you can do that firstofficer cannot? Or are you actually on par,
you just have different titles in that cockpit.MH: Theoretically, we're doing the same.
Mmm. MH
which the commander has for whatever happensonboard the aircraft. But there are some differences
(15:32):
in handling the aircraft. There are some rulesin the company. For instance, they cannot
land on wet runways, in darkness, with a crosswindof more than 10 knots.
No risks taken. MH
responsible, and I don't want to be punishedfor his mistakes.
Yeah, I can see why the culture would breed that response.
MH (15:53):
It does. OF
say to the first officer “No, you shouldtry it, have a go,” right?
Yeah, yeah. OF
In Europe, we have some limits. When I started, I couldn't land in crosswinds over
15 knots for the first six months I was flyingin my old airline. But after six months, I
was allowed to go up to the maximum. I coulddo anything. I was allowed to do that. Here,
(16:14):
you’re not.OF: It would take how many years, do you think?
It's all the way until they upgrade to captain. And then suddenly they can do it!
OF (16:20):
Yeah. And with ****, where do they fly? MH
沈阳 [Shěnyáng] - I’ve just been in沈阳 [Shěnyáng] for two weeks working
there - 成都 [Chéngdū], 重庆 [Chóngqìng].Sometimes we go there and have one day off
in the middle of our four-day working schedule.So then I go sightseeing.
That’s good. So you do have time to do that.
MH (16:42):
I do have time to do that. Most of the time, unfortunately we stay very very close
to the airports. And some places it's so faraway, there is almost no time to go to the
city.OF: Yeah.
But some places are nice. OF
a pilot? I'm thinking now about your originstory. What was it at the beginning that made
you want to be a pilot?MH: Oh, I didn't know I could work as a pilot.
(17:05):
My dad had a private pilot's licence. Andone day he took me flying.
OF (17:11):
Mmm. This is how old? MH
fun. I would like to do that”. And he said“Yeah, if you do well in school, I'll pay
for you to get a private pilot's licence.And I didn't do that well in school, so I
didn't get the licence from him.OF: Oh.
MH (17:28):
And then I had a girlfriend and she was working for a Swedish newspaper, and she had
to put an ad in for a newly started flightschool. This girlfriend sent me the ad, and
said “Hey, your dad once promised you aprivate pilot's licence. Here, you can actually
work as a pilot”. So I applied and I waslucky, I got in. And I haven't looked back
(17:51):
since.OF: How do you think you would characterise
the personality of a pilot?MH: We are pretty similar. We are structured.
OF (17:59):
Structured. MH
at working with other people. And I say thatbecause we don't work with the same people,
we never get to know the people.OF: Mmm.
MH (18:12):
So we have to be able to work with strangers quite intimately, actually.
OF (18:17):
A lot of your job is communication. MH
What are you like when you're a passenger on a plane, and you're not the one in control?
MH (18:25):
Oh, I know I'm in good hands. OF
Yes. OF
let me do it”?MH: No, no, no, no. No, no.
OF (18:33):
There's no such thing as a back seat pilot. MH
But then again, I know I make the same goodand bad landings.
Oh, I see. MH
you would consider bad landing.OF: There are nuances that you notice.
MH (18:51):
Yes. OF
Yes, yes. I want to make landings where you as a passenger wouldn't even feel that
we've landed. And here in China, it shouldbe easier to do that. Because we have long
runways here.OF: Ah.
So there is never a problem of being limited by the runway length. In Europe, you have
shorter runways, so you have to really putthe aircraft down in the right spot.
OF (19:12):
This is a legacy issue, right? Because they’re all older.
MH (19:15):
Yeah, here they build the big airports, and it’s…
OF (19:18):
Massive from the start, yeah. MH
the enlarge them.OF: Yeah. Which are the hardest airports that
you've landed in, around the world?MH: Actually, there is one very very far up
in Norway (19:29):
Alta. And we used to fly in there with the DC-9, but there was almost no automation
on it. And it was in the bottom of the fjord,you had to fly around the edge of the fjord
and then dive down to the runway. That wasa difficult one.
OF (19:45):
Wow. MH
Innsbruck.OF: OK, yeah.
MH (19:49):
Innsbruck is a special airport, with a short runway, mountains around everywhere,
with maximum crosswinds and bad weather andso on. And the Austrian authorities demand
that the pilots who fly there are speciallychecked out.
OF (20:04):
Yeah. Would you say you prefer that kind of landing, because it's a challenge? Or would
you prefer just the day-in day-out ones?MH: When I got the chance to fly to Innsbruck,
I wanted to do that. One of the reasons isthat I like the challenge. The other reason
was, when I came to Innsbruck, I would callmy dad who was living there. I would call
him before I flew there, and then he wouldcome to the airport, and I would have a cup
(20:26):
of coffee with my dad, and chitchat, and thenfly home again.
OK. I mean, you brought up the subject of your father, it makes me think about what
is the intersection between your job and yourlife. How do you think being a pilot has bled
into the way you live your life outside? Becauseit's very much a lifestyle, right?
MH (20:43):
It is. Oh, before I came to China, I was working five days, four days off; five days,
four days off. And then of course, all thevacations. And I was married to an air hostess.
OF (20:53):
Mmm. MH
we got kids - I have three - when I was off,she was working; when she was off, I was working.
Yes. Because you couldn't both be off at the same time.
MH (21:03):
We thought our kids were more important than our being together.
OF (21:08):
Yeah. MH
to have good family times, right? When I camehere, it was different. Because now I'm divorced,
I'm on my own, right? But a problem is sociallife. It's difficult to make plans. Most people
work Monday to Friday. So when we got invitations,it would be “Oh no, I cannot come, I’m
(21:29):
at work”.OF: Which you can say two or three times.
But then the fourth time, you just don't getinvited, right?
MH (21:34):
Yeah, we ended up with having most of our friends in the same industry.
OF (21:38):
Yeah. MH
instead of doing it on a Friday. The schedules.Here it's four days on, two days off.
Oh, is it? So you have a six-day week? MH
Which means that you really can't have much of a routine.
MH (21:54):
No. OF
your life for 35 years, right?MH: Yeah, but here the advance notice is shorter.
In Europe, I got my schedule up to six weeksnotice. Here it's two days. I don't know what
I’ll be doing on Monday.OF: Yup. Michael, thank you so much. It's
been great to speak with you.MH: Thank you.
OF (22:14):
And I can't believe that I have been looking at you this whole time, with the candy in
your hat, and I haven't been tempted to haveeven one. But we're coming up now to Part
2, so in our break, I am going to definitelyhave one. MH: Yeah.
So let's move on to Part 2. MH
[Part 2]OF: These are good. Do you actually eat sweet
(22:35):
when you’re flying?MH: Chocolate.
A lot of your job is sitting down, right? So sitting down, eating chocolate, but you
still look thin. What’s your secret?MH: I don't eat anything else. You've eaten
airline food, right?OF: Do you get the same food in the front?
MH (22:51):
I think it's worse. OF
Yeah. OF
I think crew gets special meals. The special meals are cost.
OF (22:59):
Yes. MH
Yeah. Are you allowed to bring your own food?
MH (23:07):
Actually it says in the manual I'm not allowed, no.
OF (23:11):
Well, we'll go on now to Part 2 with the questions. We've been talking about how you're
someone who likes structure, so I'm assumingnow you're very well prepared for these 10
questions.MH: Most of them.
Well, let's go to Question 1, which comes from Shanghai Daily
China-related fact?MH: The woodwork. I don't understand how they
(23:32):
could build all those temples - and the roofs,and wooden structures - without using a nail
or anything else.OF: Yes.
MH (23:41):
And after thousands of years, it’s still there.
OF (23:43):
Mmm. MH
Is there one recent temple which had this kind of woodwork that you particularly remember?
MH (23:51):
I just went to a temple close to the airport in 石家庄 [Shíjiāzhuāng], 正定 [Zhèngdìng].
It was beautiful.OF: Oh, well I’ll get a photo of that, if
you don't mind.MH: Yeah.
OF (24:03):
Question 2, which comes from Rosetta Stone: Do you have a favourite word or phrase in
Chinese?MH: Yes. I use it all the time: 哎哟 [Āiyō].
哎哟 [Āiyō]. MH
it's so useful, you can use it in any situation.OF: It's true. This harkens us back to Season
01 with Yael Farjun, who also chose this asher word. How would you describe the meaning?
MH (24:27):
If I dropped my coffee, or somebody surprises me.
OF (24:31):
Have you picked this up from your Chinese girlfriend?
MH (24:35):
Yeah, probably. She was my teacher, my Chinese teacher.
OF (24:39):
Aha. MH
we started dating.OF: Thinking about words that you hear often,
in your work are there certain phrases thatyou hear as a pilot that you've just picked
up?MH: Yes, there's one. When the passengers
come, I hear them say 上客 [shàngkè].OF: Yes.
MH (25:00):
So that apparently means the passengers are coming.
OF (25:03):
That's a good one. Because 上 [shàng] has the meaning of 'to start’, ‘to get
on’.MH: Yes. And 客 [kè] is the passenger, right?
Exactly. MH
Good. Question 3, which comes from naked Retreats
within China?MH: Depends on if it's work or privately.
Mmm. MH
(25:26):
because there we stay at a good hotel, witha good location, lots of restaurants around.
Ah. MH
being close to the airport.OF: Nice.
MH (25:35):
宁波 [Níngbō] is the same. For pleasure, I like 三亚 [Sānyà].
OF (25:39):
Ah yeah. MH
I had 24 hours there, I would take the subwayto get to Hong Kong. I love it.
Yeah. Next question. If you left China, what would you miss the most, and what would
you miss the least?MH: The most, I would miss the convenience
of Shanghai life. I love sitting in my home,and it's raining outside. And I didn't buy
(26:04):
cucumber for the salad, so I order it, it’sthere.
Yeah. And the thing that you would miss the least?
MH (26:10):
The least… OF
Shanghai traffic. That's actually chaotic. Nobody looks back.
OF (26:21):
Yes. MH
whatsoever.OF: Apart from me. And you, right?
MH (26:27):
And me. OF
ones who are making it hard.MH: Yes. I think here, the only way to stop
behaviour that is not according to the rulesis cameras. And they are being punished.
OF (26:40):
Right. MH
And not personal trust.OF: Yes. Next one, is there anything that
still surprises you about life in China?MH: Yes. The way Chinese people - at least
outwardly - accept things we protest overso loudly in the West. Like, I complain a
(27:03):
lot about not being able to travel back tomy kids. The answer I get from Chinese people
is “It's the same for everyone. Suck itup baby.”
Mmm. I get it. It comes from just, you never know here, there's always something
changing.MH: Yeah.
I think people have been used to things changing so much that it’s just “OK, well
here's one more thing”.MH: Yeah.
The next thing, which comes from SmartShanghai: Where is your favourite place to go out, to
(27:28):
eat or drink or just hang out?MH: Gregorius on 愚园路 [Yúyuán Lù].
It's amazing coffee, it’s good. It's small,it’s cosy.
OK. MH
All right. What is the best or worst purchase you've made in China?
MH (27:42):
The best is my drone. OF
I bought a DJI drone, and… OF
Yeah. And it was amazing. Until it committed suicide in 沈阳 [Shěnyáng].
OF (27:58):
Are you sure it wasn't murder? MH
It was supposed to fly around the stadiumand make a nice video. It was flying, and
suddenly I saw on the phone (28:08):
‘connection lost’.
OF (28:12):
OK. MH
it should return to the home point. Nothinghappened. Nothing happened, I waited 10 minutes,
nothing happened.OF: It's so classic that you spend your whole
time flying planes. And then as a hobby youlike to fly little toy planes. What is your
(28:33):
favourite WeChat sticker?MH: OK.
OK, what is this one? MH
sitting there. And it's ‘I don't care aboutthat’.
This is brilliant. MH
I’ve not seen this. And believe me, I've got quite a collection of ‘*** that’
stickers. All right, next (28:52):
What's your go-to song to sing at KTV?
MH (28:57):
Oh. I've tried Prince's ‘Let's Go Crazy’. But that's so difficult and I cannot sing.
And 'Purple Rain’.OF: OK.
But I sing that very badly. The one I can do is Frank Sinatra, ‘My Way’.
OF (29:12):
OK. MH
I think I'm in the minority of one here - so this is not about you, this is about
me - but the song is all about this **** guywho's lived his life, doesn't give a **** about
who he's hurt.MH: Yeah.
It’s toxic masculinity in one song. MH
It basically is. MH
It takes a certain kind of neglect of anyone else's feelings…
MH (29:34):
Yeah, yeah. OF
Probably his mafia connections coming out there, right?
OF (29:39):
Yes! Everyone loves this song. MH
But to me, I actually have to leave if I hear that song.
MH (29:44):
I've never thought about that before. But when you say it, you're right.
OF (29:48):
I know in what meaning you're saying it. MH
It's a joyful song about celebrating your life.
MH (29:53):
Yeah. OF
years. Maybe it's me who has to re-listento it and find the real joy in it again.
Maybe. Maybe. OF
which is the studio we are in today.MH: Yeah.
OF (30:07):
What or who is your biggest source of inspiration in China?
MH (30:11):
The people. OF
I've made so many new friends here, I've seen a different culture, I've learned a lot.
I've learned a little more self-control, andrespect for other people. I had that before,
because I've lived in many different countries.But this inspires me the most.
OF (30:29):
Yeah. In a way, it's my mistake with wording this question in this way. Because a lot of
people have said the same answer. And it justmakes me think about the reason I'm doing
this podcast, it’s because people have anidea about China as an entity.
MH (30:44):
Yes. OF
it is.MH: Yes.
OF (30:48):
But all of us who live here, we only think about the people.
MH (30:50):
Yeah. OF
podcast.MH: Yeah.
OF (30:53):
So I have to think about doing this question differently. Because everyone says the same
thing. But in a way, it's probably the rightanswer.
MH (31:00):
Yeah, for me it is. And it is a mosaic. All the people I’ve got to know here, they
are different ages, different backgrounds,different races. They're all shaping not only
their own lives, but they are influencingme in my life, right? That’s the greatest
inspiration.OF: Yeah. Well on that note, thank you so
(31:21):
much, it has been a pleasure.MH: Thank you for having me.
OF (31:24):
The only thing left for me to ask you is, out of everyone you know in China, who
would you recommend for the next season ofMosaic of China?
MH (31:33):
Next season, there is an American lady in 成都 [Chéngdū], Elyse.
OF (31:37):
Mmm. MH
studied Beijing opera. And she's bound tobe doing something interesting by the time
the next season comes out.OF: Oh I love it. I mean, just someone who
has any kind of understanding of Beijing opera,I think that in itself is something which
I'm interested in. Because for me, I cannotlisten to that.
MH (31:59):
Yes. OF
what one question would you ask her?MH: Oh, I would ask her why are they subtitled
in Chinese?OF: Ah.
If nobody understands it, why do it? OF
I will ask Elyse next season.MH: OK.
OF (32:18):
Thank you so much. MH
[Outro]OF: Straight off the bat, let me dedicate
today’s episode to Michael’s father, whopassed away shortly after we recorded our
conversation. Herr Hundegger, I’m sure youwere very proud of your son, even though he
didn’t do well enough at school for youto get him his first pilot’s licence.
(32:41):
I posted some photos online of Michael withhis father, as well as the ever-so-slightly-not-safe-for-work
WeChat sticker, and lots of other images too.Either head to the website mosaicofchina.com
or find them on social media at @mosaicofchinaor @oscology. There you’ll also see Michael’s
(33:04):
object, his pilot’s hat full of candy.
In our chat we mentioned authority bias inthe context of this hat, to hear more about
that be sure check out an episode with anotherMichael, the fire engineer Michael Kinsey
from Season 02 Episode 25, who talks aboutthis same bias in the context of fire evacuations.
(33:28):
I already mentioned the connection to thehistorical researcher Yael Farjun from Season
01 Episode 12, who previously chose 哎哟[Āiyō] as her favourite phrase in Chinese.
In fact that was also the favourite phraseof the Mongolian teacher Tsogi Burmerdene
earlier in Season 03 Episode 10. And whenMichael said that the thing he would miss
(33:51):
the least would be the traffic in China, thatwas also mentioned by Kim YoungAh, the adidas
merchandiser from Season 03 Episode 18 andSabrina Chen, the dance theatre programme
director from Season 01 Episode 26. Nice workMichael, but let’s hope that future guests
can come up with more original choices please.哎哟 [Āiyō]…
(34:15):
As always, there’s a bunch more contentfrom my great conversation with Michael in
the PREMIUM version of the show, please headto his page on mosaicofchina.com where you’ll
find links to subscribing to that version,either in China or overseas. Here are a few
clips from that extended conversation: [Clip 1] (34:33):
undefined
MH (34:37):
The only ones who are well paid are the pilots and the management.
[Clip 2]MH: I always try to find 天安门 [Tiān’ānmén]
Square or the Forbidden City, I love lookingout of the window.
[Clip 3]MH: And they slammed on the brakes, and they
were about 30 centimetres from a wall.[Clip 4]
They make a lot of new First Officers, but turning them into Captains takes time.
[Clip 5]OF: So much of the airspace is dedicated to
(34:59):
the military, right?MH: All of it.
OF (35:01):
All of it. MH
[Clip 6]MH: Why didn't you report it? Are you lying
to us?OF: Yeah.
[Clip 7]MH: Then he tells me “Climb to 10,400 metres.”
Then I tell him “Climb to 10,400 metres.”Then we set 10,400 metres.
[Clip 8]MH: The windows, they are heated.
They’re heated? MH
be flexible.[Clip 9]
MH (35:18):
I shouted “No, no, no, don't do that!” So I got a little bit loud.
[Clip 10]MH: If we have really long flights, then we
could listen to music. But I never do that,because somehow I want to hear what's going
on.OF: Yeah.
[Clip 11]MH: If you fly in the evening, you can see
the night coming.OF: Ah.
You see the shadow of the earth. [End of Audio Clips]
OF (35:35):
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artwork by Denny Newell. After the music,
there’s a short catch-up Vittorio Franzesefrom Season 02 Episode 27, which we recorded
shortly after the lockdown ended in Shanghailast year, so it’s interesting to hear our
feelings from that time. Take care, and I’llsee you back here for the next episode.
(35:59):
[Catch-Up Interview]OF: Hello Vitto.
VF (36:04):
Hi Oscar, nice to be here again. OF
sure there are some people who would equatethe word ‘lockdown’ with whatever they
experienced as lockdown. But in Shanghai,lockdown means lockdown. I'll tell you one
(36:26):
thing that I was grateful for - this is goingback to your original episode - one of your
objects was a bag of ‘taralli’. And taralliare these dense breadsticks, which come from
your area of Italy, Puglia. And I rememberyou saying that your mother, your grandmother,
would always put taralli in your suitcasebefore you traveled, because they can save
(36:49):
your life. I had these taralli from your motherall the way through lockdown. So I was so
grateful to you, man. Seriously.VF: They were at the right place in the right
time.OF: Yes.
So they achieved their purpose. And as I said in our first episode I guess, just
a couple of taralli can give you the amountof calories necessary to survive a whole day.
OF (37:11):
Honestly, we actually didn't have many. It wasn't the eating of the taralli, it was
just having it in the house. Especially whenwe couldn't get our hands on food, which was
for a good week or so. We always knew “It'sOK, we have taralli”. It was psychologically
really, really helpful.VF: You make me feel stingy, because I could
(37:31):
have given you more. You only had a few, butI’m happy they were useful.
For people who didn't listen to your earlier episode, you are a lawyer. And actually, I
didn't mention it in our episode, but it'sone of the most famous law firms in Italy,
right?VF: Yes, correct. It’s in the top two or
three law firms in Italy. So we are, let'ssay, holding up. The Hong Kong office is giving
(37:56):
me enough support to survive here alone bymyself in temporary absence of colleagues.
Because, yeah, the office is at the momentonly myself.
Oh, my word. VF
That’s incredible. Because you're actually not very old, right? How old are you now?
VF (38:12):
34. OF
the biggest law firm in Italy.VF: Yeah, it's circumstances that made it
happen. I was not chosen to be the representativehere for sure. There were going to be people
more experienced and mature me to have thisrole. But we mentioned it in the first episode.
This is China (38:30):
the unexpected turns. I find myself being here representing the office,
and if you asked me this in 2017 right beforeentering this firm, I would have never expected
that. Let's just ride this wave and see whatcomes with it.
OF (38:47):
Yeah. It is interesting, this dichotomy: “Do I leave? Or do I stay and see if I can
capitalise on this opportunity, at the sametime?”
VF (38:57):
Exactly. The reaction I'm seeing in foreigners is “I am fed up, I want to leave this country”.
On the other side, "Wow there's going to bea lot of space for us.” Foreigners and foreign
companies, they're going to still be the bridgebetween certain mindsets. So why not take
advantage of this in a positive way?OF: Yes. What has been keeping you busy in
(39:22):
the last 18 months in your law firm?VF: I'm still considered as the counterfeit
strategy / counterfeit action ‘expert inmatter’, due to my previous experience in
Beijing. As we said, it was unique. So I stilllike to address that problem in a certain
(39:43):
way, it's still a passion for me. Nonetheless,in the past 18 months, many companies that
approached us do believe that there's spacein the Chinese market. And we're not talking
about mass production here, they are moreinterested in the economical power of the
Chinese middle class. So they are interestedin maybe setting up a commercial branch more
(40:09):
than a production branch.OF: Right, so they can sell to the market,
rather than produce things here.VF: Indeed, indeed. This is also challenging
and very interesting.OF: Well Vitto, thank you so much for coming.
We had intended for you to refer your partnerTerika for the next season. Terika is in the
middle of a career change, so we decided maybeit’ll be better to do that in a future season.
(40:34):
So we will definitely get Terika back, I hope.In the meantime I found a replacement. So
what I will do is, I will put this catch-upat the end of this new replacement’s episode.
So at least you are still part of the Mosaic,and I hope that Terika will be too.
Thank you so much again for inviting me, it's been nice to catch up.
OF (40:51):
Thanks Vitto.
[Trailer]MH: If nobody understands it, why do it?
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
I was looking forward to doing today’s episode,because I thought it would be really fun to
(00:23):
hear about the life of an international pilothere in China. And I wasn’t disappointed,
that’s exactly what it was, and I can’twait for you to hear it. But more than that,
my conversation with today’s guest alsorevealed such an interesting window into the
nature of authority, discipline and educationin China. So let’s not waste any more time,
(00:49):
fasten your seatbelts and let’s get readyfor today’s show.
[Part 1]OF: Thank you so much Michael. It's great
to have you here.MH: Thank you.
OF (00:59):
And I always like to pronounce people's names properly. It's Michael Hundegger, is
it?MH: It's ‘Michael’.
Michael. MH
Michael Hundegger. MH
That sounds like a German name. Where are you from?
MH (01:13):
Actually, I would say I'm confused. Because I'm born in Austria, by Austrian parents.
But I'm holding a Swedish passport, my motherexiled me to Sweden when I was 13. Then I
married a Danish girl and we moved to Denmark.And now I'm divorced, and I'm living in Shanghai.
OF (01:34):
Fair enough. This is it, you ask a man about his name and you get this kind of story.
MH (01:38):
Yeah. OF
conversation in this way. Before we go anyfurther, what is the object that you have
brought that in some way describes your lifein China?
You want to see it now? OF
It's actually a piece of uniform. I call it ‘my dictators hat’.
OF (01:56):
OK, why don't you describe what you've just brought out?
MH (02:00):
Well, it's my uniform hat. And we got it issued when when we started. And I've haven't
seen anyone wearing the hat.OF: Really.
It’s kind of ugly. So I transformed it into a candy bowl. Alternatively chips
bowl, or fruit bowl.OF: And you've never worn it for work.
I’ve never wanted for work. OF
(02:23):
Yeah. OF
hat?MH: That hat is the hat of an airline captain.
OF (02:30):
Right. So we’re talking to a pilot today. MH
And I'm thinking about when I see pilots. They don't always wear the hat, but they at
least have it tucked under their arm as they'rewalking to customs, no?
MH (02:43):
Well I started flying many years ago in Scandinavian Airlines. And at that time, we
had to bring the hat. Actually, it was supposedto be a piece of our emergency equipment.
OF (02:54):
Huh? MH
we would put our hat on. Because then everybodywould see “Oh, that's the Captain, that’s
the copilot.”OF: Yes.
MH (03:04):
But that changed. Nobody wanted to wear the hat. And now nobody has the hat.
OF (03:10):
Isn't it funny? So it actually came from this idea of authority bias, where people
are more likely to follow the instructionsof authority.
MH (03:18):
Yes, yes. OF
the uniform itself is enough. You don't needthe hat.
It should be, yes. And now, you know the yellow vests?
OF (03:25):
Yes. MH
put my vest on.OF: Yes. That has the same kind of meaning…
MH (03:31):
Yeah, yeah. OF
head.MH: Yeah. And yeah, I don't wanna look bad.
OF (03:36):
OK, you have a sweet tooth and you’re vain.
MH (03:39):
Yes. OF
carefully to us. I mean, presumably you neverwore it flying anyway.
No, no. We would only wear it walking to and from the aircraft.
OF (03:48):
Right. Well, you're here in China as a pilot. So I guess the first obvious question
would be, how the hell did that happen?MH: I got a good offer here. And I always
wanted to have an adventure. I'm reachingretirement age, in my old company I could
have retired three years ago. And I'm stillhere. And I just signed a new contract for
(04:10):
the next three years.OF: Mmm-hmm.
MH (04:11):
So that's why I'm here
coincided with a time when the airline industryin Europe would have been suffering, right?
Yes, there was put a lot of pressure on us
working more, getting less. Our pensions werecut, and so on. And that made me a little
(04:32):
bit tired of it.OF: Mmm.
So when this offer came in, I said “Yeah”. OF
**** had at that time the best contract on the market. Probably the best contract
in the world.OF: Really?
Yes. Expansion. Expansion, and lack of experienced staff. The expansion in China
is so huge. When I came, **** had around 50aircraft. Today, six years later, it's 130.
(04:58):
This year, another 20 come. Everyone is expanding,and they don't have enough experienced pilots.
They wanted to attract as many as possible,I think they have the highest percentage of
foreign pilots. We are about 130, out of 1,200pilots.
OF (05:15):
Wow. MH
Hmm. And how is it subdivided then? I mean, are you just one big bunch of pilots?
Or do you have specific units?MH: They have made five units, that are in
competition with each other. And foreign pilotsare in the foreign division.
Ah. MH
(05:35):
allocated to us. A handful, 30-40. They havegood knowledge of English, and so on.
When you say “Compete" then, how do you compete with the other units?
MH (05:45):
Safety wise. We have a flight recorder, and the flight recorder will record all kinds
of parameters of the flight.OF: Mmm-hmm.
Altitude, speed, sync rate, and so on, and so on.
OF (05:55):
This is like the ‘black box’ that we hear about with air crash investigations,
right?MH: Yes, yes. And this goes via data link
directly to the company. And if we fly a littlebit too fast; or a little bit too slow; or
we make some small small small mistakes, right?We have a taxiing speed on ground that’s
supposed to be maximum 10 knots. But if weturn with 11, 12 knots, that would be recorded
(06:19):
as…OF: A mistake.
MH (06:21):
As a mistake. OF
errors between pilots, they all get addedup, and then you compete as these five units
between each other?MH: Apparently, yes. I don't care about it,
so I don't think so much about it. But apparentlythere is a competition.
OF (06:36):
But then do you get some kind of official prize, or an official…?
MH (06:39):
No. You only get individual punishment. OF
me start by asking about the actual mistakes,because this is one of the things that I'm
always fascinated by when it comes to pilots.Because we're human, right? We make human
mistakes.MH: We do. Every day.
OF (06:57):
This is so worrying. But you've mentioned already that you might get a little bit too
fast. Like, is that the usual mistake thatyou would make?
MH (07:05):
Yes, that will be one of the mistakes. The airspace is divided into different altitudes.
And here in China below 10,000 feet altitude,the maximum speed is 250 knots.
OF (07:16):
Is that a world standard? MH
too. But then the controller can give us permission.OF: Mmm.
MH (07:26):
“Speed up.” Maybe we can speed up to 300 knots. Here, it’s 250 knots.
OF (07:30):
No matter what. MH
Mmm-hmm. MH
a big fire onboard and I need to get downon the ground, I wouldn't care about the 250
knots.OF: Right.
MH (07:40):
And then they can punish me for speeding. But I will tell them “Well, I saved 190
lives”, right?OF: Yeah.
But if I fly 255 knots, I would get a tick mark. If I fly 265 knots, I would get
a question, “Why did you fly fast?”OF: OK.
And that would probably cause some kind of incident. or event. And maybe there would
be some money deducted.OF: From your salary?
(08:01):
From my salary, yeah. OF
There’s a price list for everything. And here, it's a lot about following standard
operating procedures.OF: Mmm.
You have to follow those. And every time there is one little incident somewhere, the
CAAC will demand that the standard operatingprocedures be changed. So we have changes
to the procedures all the time.OF: Right. Because a lot of what you're saying,
(08:25):
it’s measured through your airline. Whendoes it get escalated to the CAAC? Which I'm
assuming means the ‘Aviation Commission’,is it?
This is the Central Aviation Administration of China.
OF (08:36):
Aha. MH
into everything.OF: Ah.
MH (08:42):
If we write a report, the CAAC will see it.
OF (08:47):
Mmm. MH
Recorder, which is also listened to. And wehave an open mic in the cockpit, which - for
some specific flights - someone sits and listensto what we're doing.
In real time? MH
Mmm. MH
maybe I will be grounded for a week and setto study the standard operating procedures.
(09:09):
And this is - as a passenger - kind of what I want to hear, right?
MH (09:12):
Yeah. OF
this is the same thing that happens anywherearound the world. So you tell me, in which
parts is it actually quite different to whatyou've been used to.
It is the same everywhere when it comes to structure, standard operating procedures,
safety awareness. What is not the same ispunishment for mistakes. Other aviation authorities
(09:36):
have non-punitive reporting systems. So ifI make a mistake, I've report it, and everybody
else learns from it. Here we learn from thepunishment.
OF (09:47):
That seems like a very legalistic way that sometimes China can work.
MH (09:51):
It is, yes. To me, it's a big difference in the mentality. Here when somebody tells
people to do something, they say “Yes.”And back in the West, if somebody tells me
to do something, I say “Why?”OF: This is classic, isn't it?
Yeah. OF
of your previous employers in Europe got tiredof miserable old pilots like you, right?
(10:15):
Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Lazy, old, expensive. So…
OF (10:19):
Which is better? I mean, presumably it has the same outcome. Or..?
MH (10:24):
I think it has the same outcome. In my industry, at least. For your personal wellbeing,
I prefer the other way.OF: Right.
Not having to look over my shoulder, and being afraid that somebody writes a report.
Or that if I make a mistake that I will bepunished, that maybe my career ends.
OF (10:44):
Mmm. You live with this sort of constant ‘drip, drip, drip’ of feeling uneasy,
and being punished.MH: Yeah.
And that is kind of how it works in China. It's this constant “I know what you're doing.
Don't do anything wrong.” It's that wholeway that we live our lives day to day here.
MH (11:00):
Yes, yes. It's all being recorded. OF
record because you want to have that blackbox for investigations.
Yes. Most of the unionised airlines have an agreement that the voice recorder is used
for investigation purposes only. But otherwise,they use it for trends.
OF (11:18):
Mmm. MH
And even then, it would have been anonymised, right?
MH (11:22):
It would be anonymised. General. How often would the general population of pilots do
this, and that?OF: Yes.
Do we have to change our standard operating procedures or not?
OF (11:30):
Yes. Across the whole data set. Like “Right, how do we in general improve standards?”
MH (11:34):
Yes. OF
for this one mistake?”MH: No.
OF (11:39):
Yeah, so interesting. OK, well I mean, we're talking about the culture of these airlines.
So why don't we then talk about the culturebetween you and your co-pilot? What's their
rank?MH: They are first officers.
First officers. MH
Chinese crew.OF: Right.
MH (11:55):
Chinese first officers, Chinese cabin crew.
OF (11:58):
So talk me through what happens in the cockpit between you two. Let's say, you've
already taken off. Most of the work is doneby the computer, right?
MH (12:08):
Yes. We are monitoring. OF
Imagine you sit in front of your computer screen, and you have to monitor your computer
doing the correct thing at all times, right?OF: Yeah.
And depending on my first officer's knowledge of English, we are chitchatting. I'm an old
fart, right? So we don't have much in common.OF: Yeah right.
But many of them are interested. Interested in life in Denmark or Austria or wherever.
(12:32):
They are interested in how many kids I have,and so on and so on. So we chitchat. But they
are studying. When they join the airline,they are First Officer Level Alpha 1.
OF (12:45):
OK. MH
B1, B2, C1, C2. And after they have reachedthe level of C2 first officer, they can upgrade
to Captain A. And..OF: And then there are different hierarchy
of captains too?MH: Yes, there are three: A, B and C.
So you are..? MH
(13:07):
we all start as Level B Captains. And whenwe have been flying 500 hours within the airline,
we normally are upgraded to C Level. Becausewe are experienced. But these first officers,
for every upgrade they have - they have fiveupgrades - they have to do oral tests, they
have to do written tests, and they have todo simulated tests.
(13:28):
Constantly, basically. MH
studying. And they are really good students.OF: Mmm.
MH (13:34):
They know the manuals. If I have any question, I just asked them.
OF (13:39):
Which wouldn't have been the case for you at that age?
MH (13:42):
No. We know where to find information. OF
We do not learn the information by heart. OF
Right.MH: Yes. That is probably the schooling system
difference already there.OF: Yes. I think we would tend to put more
emphasis on the problem-solving skills.MH: Yes.
OF (14:00):
Whereas they would put emphasis on the actual knowing of information.
MH (14:03):
Yes. And they put emphasis on the knowing, and not on the understanding.
OF (14:08):
Ah. But I guess that's a good thing about why - when you are flying with a first officer
who was brought up in that education system- you can in some way impart that kind of
sixth sense to them.MH: I try to do that. I'm not an instructor,
so I don't try to instruct them. But I tryto share my experience.
Mmm. MH
(14:31):
years.OF: OK.
MH (14:32):
I’ve been flying 35 years, I have 19,000 flight hours. So I'm quite experienced.
OF (14:38):
Yeah. MH
It’s instinct. MH
they do it mechanically.OF: Mmm. But again, that would be the case
if you weren't flying in Europe, right? Imean, that's how you do start.
MH (14:53):
Yes. Yes, but we were taught to feel. “Oh, you have a little gust here during
landing. Try to feel it, and fly the aircraftall the way down until the wheels hit the
ground”. Here, sometimes they are taught“At 50 feet, you do this. And you do that.”
OF (15:10):
Mmm-hmm. Interesting. Going back to you and the first officer then, as a commander
what are the things that you can do that firstofficer cannot? Or are you actually on par,
you just have different titles in that cockpit.MH: Theoretically, we're doing the same.
Mmm. MH
which the commander has for whatever happensonboard the aircraft. But there are some differences
(15:32):
in handling the aircraft. There are some rulesin the company. For instance, they cannot
land on wet runways, in darkness, with a crosswindof more than 10 knots.
No risks taken. MH
responsible, and I don't want to be punishedfor his mistakes.
Yeah, I can see why the culture would breed that response.
MH (15:53):
It does. OF
say to the first officer “No, you shouldtry it, have a go,” right?
Yeah, yeah. OF
In Europe, we have some limits. When I started, I couldn't land in crosswinds over
15 knots for the first six months I was flyingin my old airline. But after six months, I
was allowed to go up to the maximum. I coulddo anything. I was allowed to do that. Here,
(16:14):
you’re not.OF: It would take how many years, do you think?
It's all the way until they upgrade to captain. And then suddenly they can do it!
OF (16:20):
Yeah. And with ****, where do they fly? MH
沈阳 [Shěnyáng] - I’ve just been in沈阳 [Shěnyáng] for two weeks working
there - 成都 [Chéngdū], 重庆 [Chóngqìng].Sometimes we go there and have one day off
in the middle of our four-day working schedule.So then I go sightseeing.
That’s good. So you do have time to do that.
MH (16:42):
I do have time to do that. Most of the time, unfortunately we stay very very close
to the airports. And some places it's so faraway, there is almost no time to go to the
city.OF: Yeah.
But some places are nice. OF
a pilot? I'm thinking now about your originstory. What was it at the beginning that made
you want to be a pilot?MH: Oh, I didn't know I could work as a pilot.
(17:05):
My dad had a private pilot's licence. Andone day he took me flying.
OF (17:11):
Mmm. This is how old? MH
fun. I would like to do that”. And he said“Yeah, if you do well in school, I'll pay
for you to get a private pilot's licence.And I didn't do that well in school, so I
didn't get the licence from him.OF: Oh.
MH (17:28):
And then I had a girlfriend and she was working for a Swedish newspaper, and she had
to put an ad in for a newly started flightschool. This girlfriend sent me the ad, and
said “Hey, your dad once promised you aprivate pilot's licence. Here, you can actually
work as a pilot”. So I applied and I waslucky, I got in. And I haven't looked back
(17:51):
since.OF: How do you think you would characterise
the personality of a pilot?MH: We are pretty similar. We are structured.
OF (17:59):
Structured. MH
at working with other people. And I say thatbecause we don't work with the same people,
we never get to know the people.OF: Mmm.
MH (18:12):
So we have to be able to work with strangers quite intimately, actually.
OF (18:17):
A lot of your job is communication. MH
What are you like when you're a passenger on a plane, and you're not the one in control?
MH (18:25):
Oh, I know I'm in good hands. OF
Yes. OF
let me do it”?MH: No, no, no, no. No, no.
OF (18:33):
There's no such thing as a back seat pilot. MH
But then again, I know I make the same goodand bad landings.
Oh, I see. MH
you would consider bad landing.OF: There are nuances that you notice.
MH (18:51):
Yes. OF
Yes, yes. I want to make landings where you as a passenger wouldn't even feel that
we've landed. And here in China, it shouldbe easier to do that. Because we have long
runways here.OF: Ah.
So there is never a problem of being limited by the runway length. In Europe, you have
shorter runways, so you have to really putthe aircraft down in the right spot.
OF (19:12):
This is a legacy issue, right? Because they’re all older.
MH (19:15):
Yeah, here they build the big airports, and it’s…
OF (19:18):
Massive from the start, yeah. MH
the enlarge them.OF: Yeah. Which are the hardest airports that
you've landed in, around the world?MH: Actually, there is one very very far up
in Norway (19:29):
Alta. And we used to fly in there with the DC-9, but there was almost no automation
on it. And it was in the bottom of the fjord,you had to fly around the edge of the fjord
and then dive down to the runway. That wasa difficult one.
OF (19:45):
Wow. MH
Innsbruck.OF: OK, yeah.
MH (19:49):
Innsbruck is a special airport, with a short runway, mountains around everywhere,
with maximum crosswinds and bad weather andso on. And the Austrian authorities demand
that the pilots who fly there are speciallychecked out.
OF (20:04):
Yeah. Would you say you prefer that kind of landing, because it's a challenge? Or would
you prefer just the day-in day-out ones?MH: When I got the chance to fly to Innsbruck,
I wanted to do that. One of the reasons isthat I like the challenge. The other reason
was, when I came to Innsbruck, I would callmy dad who was living there. I would call
him before I flew there, and then he wouldcome to the airport, and I would have a cup
(20:26):
of coffee with my dad, and chitchat, and thenfly home again.
OK. I mean, you brought up the subject of your father, it makes me think about what
is the intersection between your job and yourlife. How do you think being a pilot has bled
into the way you live your life outside? Becauseit's very much a lifestyle, right?
MH (20:43):
It is. Oh, before I came to China, I was working five days, four days off; five days,
four days off. And then of course, all thevacations. And I was married to an air hostess.
OF (20:53):
Mmm. MH
we got kids - I have three - when I was off,she was working; when she was off, I was working.
Yes. Because you couldn't both be off at the same time.
MH (21:03):
We thought our kids were more important than our being together.
OF (21:08):
Yeah. MH
to have good family times, right? When I camehere, it was different. Because now I'm divorced,
I'm on my own, right? But a problem is sociallife. It's difficult to make plans. Most people
work Monday to Friday. So when we got invitations,it would be “Oh no, I cannot come, I’m
(21:29):
at work”.OF: Which you can say two or three times.
But then the fourth time, you just don't getinvited, right?
MH (21:34):
Yeah, we ended up with having most of our friends in the same industry.
OF (21:38):
Yeah. MH
instead of doing it on a Friday. The schedules.Here it's four days on, two days off.
Oh, is it? So you have a six-day week? MH
Which means that you really can't have much of a routine.
MH (21:54):
No. OF
your life for 35 years, right?MH: Yeah, but here the advance notice is shorter.
In Europe, I got my schedule up to six weeksnotice. Here it's two days. I don't know what
I’ll be doing on Monday.OF: Yup. Michael, thank you so much. It's
been great to speak with you.MH: Thank you.
OF (22:14):
And I can't believe that I have been looking at you this whole time, with the candy in
your hat, and I haven't been tempted to haveeven one. But we're coming up now to Part
2, so in our break, I am going to definitelyhave one. MH: Yeah.
So let's move on to Part 2. MH
[Part 2]OF: These are good. Do you actually eat sweet
(22:35):
when you’re flying?MH: Chocolate.
A lot of your job is sitting down, right? So sitting down, eating chocolate, but you
still look thin. What’s your secret?MH: I don't eat anything else. You've eaten
airline food, right?OF: Do you get the same food in the front?
MH (22:51):
I think it's worse. OF
Yeah. OF
I think crew gets special meals. The special meals are cost.
OF (22:59):
Yes. MH
Yeah. Are you allowed to bring your own food?
MH (23:07):
Actually it says in the manual I'm not allowed, no.
OF (23:11):
Well, we'll go on now to Part 2 with the questions. We've been talking about how you're
someone who likes structure, so I'm assumingnow you're very well prepared for these 10
questions.MH: Most of them.
Well, let's go to Question 1, which comes from Shanghai Daily
China-related fact?MH: The woodwork. I don't understand how they
(23:32):
could build all those temples - and the roofs,and wooden structures - without using a nail
or anything else.OF: Yes.
MH (23:41):
And after thousands of years, it’s still there.
OF (23:43):
Mmm. MH
Is there one recent temple which had this kind of woodwork that you particularly remember?
MH (23:51):
I just went to a temple close to the airport in 石家庄 [Shíjiāzhuāng], 正定 [Zhèngdìng].
It was beautiful.OF: Oh, well I’ll get a photo of that, if
you don't mind.MH: Yeah.
OF (24:03):
Question 2, which comes from Rosetta Stone: Do you have a favourite word or phrase in
Chinese?MH: Yes. I use it all the time: 哎哟 [Āiyō].
哎哟 [Āiyō]. MH
it's so useful, you can use it in any situation.OF: It's true. This harkens us back to Season
01 with Yael Farjun, who also chose this asher word. How would you describe the meaning?
MH (24:27):
If I dropped my coffee, or somebody surprises me.
OF (24:31):
Have you picked this up from your Chinese girlfriend?
MH (24:35):
Yeah, probably. She was my teacher, my Chinese teacher.
OF (24:39):
Aha. MH
we started dating.OF: Thinking about words that you hear often,
in your work are there certain phrases thatyou hear as a pilot that you've just picked
up?MH: Yes, there's one. When the passengers
come, I hear them say 上客 [shàngkè].OF: Yes.
MH (25:00):
So that apparently means the passengers are coming.
OF (25:03):
That's a good one. Because 上 [shàng] has the meaning of 'to start’, ‘to get
on’.MH: Yes. And 客 [kè] is the passenger, right?
Exactly. MH
Good. Question 3, which comes from naked Retreats
within China?MH: Depends on if it's work or privately.
Mmm. MH
(25:26):
because there we stay at a good hotel, witha good location, lots of restaurants around.
Ah. MH
being close to the airport.OF: Nice.
MH (25:35):
宁波 [Níngbō] is the same. For pleasure, I like 三亚 [Sānyà].
OF (25:39):
Ah yeah. MH
I had 24 hours there, I would take the subwayto get to Hong Kong. I love it.
Yeah. Next question. If you left China, what would you miss the most, and what would
you miss the least?MH: The most, I would miss the convenience
of Shanghai life. I love sitting in my home,and it's raining outside. And I didn't buy
(26:04):
cucumber for the salad, so I order it, it’sthere.
Yeah. And the thing that you would miss the least?
MH (26:10):
The least… OF
Shanghai traffic. That's actually chaotic. Nobody looks back.
OF (26:21):
Yes. MH
whatsoever.OF: Apart from me. And you, right?
MH (26:27):
And me. OF
ones who are making it hard.MH: Yes. I think here, the only way to stop
behaviour that is not according to the rulesis cameras. And they are being punished.
OF (26:40):
Right. MH
And not personal trust.OF: Yes. Next one, is there anything that
still surprises you about life in China?MH: Yes. The way Chinese people - at least
outwardly - accept things we protest overso loudly in the West. Like, I complain a
(27:03):
lot about not being able to travel back tomy kids. The answer I get from Chinese people
is “It's the same for everyone. Suck itup baby.”
Mmm. I get it. It comes from just, you never know here, there's always something
changing.MH: Yeah.
I think people have been used to things changing so much that it’s just “OK, well
here's one more thing”.MH: Yeah.
The next thing, which comes from SmartShanghai: Where is your favourite place to go out, to
(27:28):
eat or drink or just hang out?MH: Gregorius on 愚园路 [Yúyuán Lù].
It's amazing coffee, it’s good. It's small,it’s cosy.
OK. MH
All right. What is the best or worst purchase you've made in China?
MH (27:42):
The best is my drone. OF
I bought a DJI drone, and… OF
Yeah. And it was amazing. Until it committed suicide in 沈阳 [Shěnyáng].
OF (27:58):
Are you sure it wasn't murder? MH
It was supposed to fly around the stadiumand make a nice video. It was flying, and
suddenly I saw on the phone (28:08):
‘connection lost’.
OF (28:12):
OK. MH
it should return to the home point. Nothinghappened. Nothing happened, I waited 10 minutes,
nothing happened.OF: It's so classic that you spend your whole
time flying planes. And then as a hobby youlike to fly little toy planes. What is your
(28:33):
favourite WeChat sticker?MH: OK.
OK, what is this one? MH
sitting there. And it's ‘I don't care aboutthat’.
This is brilliant. MH
I’ve not seen this. And believe me, I've got quite a collection of ‘*** that’
stickers. All right, next (28:52):
What's your go-to song to sing at KTV?
MH (28:57):
Oh. I've tried Prince's ‘Let's Go Crazy’. But that's so difficult and I cannot sing.
And 'Purple Rain’.OF: OK.
But I sing that very badly. The one I can do is Frank Sinatra, ‘My Way’.
OF (29:12):
OK. MH
I think I'm in the minority of one here - so this is not about you, this is about
me - but the song is all about this **** guywho's lived his life, doesn't give a **** about
who he's hurt.MH: Yeah.
It’s toxic masculinity in one song. MH
It basically is. MH
It takes a certain kind of neglect of anyone else's feelings…
MH (29:34):
Yeah, yeah. OF
Probably his mafia connections coming out there, right?
OF (29:39):
Yes! Everyone loves this song. MH
But to me, I actually have to leave if I hear that song.
MH (29:44):
I've never thought about that before. But when you say it, you're right.
OF (29:48):
I know in what meaning you're saying it. MH
It's a joyful song about celebrating your life.
MH (29:53):
Yeah. OF
years. Maybe it's me who has to re-listento it and find the real joy in it again.
Maybe. Maybe. OF
which is the studio we are in today.MH: Yeah.
OF (30:07):
What or who is your biggest source of inspiration in China?
MH (30:11):
The people. OF
I've made so many new friends here, I've seen a different culture, I've learned a lot.
I've learned a little more self-control, andrespect for other people. I had that before,
because I've lived in many different countries.But this inspires me the most.
OF (30:29):
Yeah. In a way, it's my mistake with wording this question in this way. Because a lot of
people have said the same answer. And it justmakes me think about the reason I'm doing
this podcast, it’s because people have anidea about China as an entity.
MH (30:44):
Yes. OF
it is.MH: Yes.
OF (30:48):
But all of us who live here, we only think about the people.
MH (30:50):
Yeah. OF
podcast.MH: Yeah.
OF (30:53):
So I have to think about doing this question differently. Because everyone says the same
thing. But in a way, it's probably the rightanswer.
MH (31:00):
Yeah, for me it is. And it is a mosaic. All the people I’ve got to know here, they
are different ages, different backgrounds,different races. They're all shaping not only
their own lives, but they are influencingme in my life, right? That’s the greatest
inspiration.OF: Yeah. Well on that note, thank you so
(31:21):
much, it has been a pleasure.MH: Thank you for having me.
OF (31:24):
The only thing left for me to ask you is, out of everyone you know in China, who
would you recommend for the next season ofMosaic of China?
MH (31:33):
Next season, there is an American lady in 成都 [Chéngdū], Elyse.
OF (31:37):
Mmm. MH
studied Beijing opera. And she's bound tobe doing something interesting by the time
the next season comes out.OF: Oh I love it. I mean, just someone who
has any kind of understanding of Beijing opera,I think that in itself is something which
I'm interested in. Because for me, I cannotlisten to that.
MH (31:59):
Yes. OF
what one question would you ask her?MH: Oh, I would ask her why are they subtitled
in Chinese?OF: Ah.
If nobody understands it, why do it? OF
I will ask Elyse next season.MH: OK.
OF (32:18):
Thank you so much. MH
[Outro]OF: Straight off the bat, let me dedicate
today’s episode to Michael’s father, whopassed away shortly after we recorded our
conversation. Herr Hundegger, I’m sure youwere very proud of your son, even though he
didn’t do well enough at school for youto get him his first pilot’s licence.
(32:41):
I posted some photos online of Michael withhis father, as well as the ever-so-slightly-not-safe-for-work
WeChat sticker, and lots of other images too.Either head to the website mosaicofchina.com
or find them on social media at @mosaicofchinaor @oscology. There you’ll also see Michael’s
(33:04):
object, his pilot’s hat full of candy.
In our chat we mentioned authority bias inthe context of this hat, to hear more about
that be sure check out an episode with anotherMichael, the fire engineer Michael Kinsey
from Season 02 Episode 25, who talks aboutthis same bias in the context of fire evacuations.
(33:28):
I already mentioned the connection to thehistorical researcher Yael Farjun from Season
01 Episode 12, who previously chose 哎哟[Āiyō] as her favourite phrase in Chinese.
In fact that was also the favourite phraseof the Mongolian teacher Tsogi Burmerdene
earlier in Season 03 Episode 10. And whenMichael said that the thing he would miss
(33:51):
the least would be the traffic in China, thatwas also mentioned by Kim YoungAh, the adidas
merchandiser from Season 03 Episode 18 andSabrina Chen, the dance theatre programme
director from Season 01 Episode 26. Nice workMichael, but let’s hope that future guests
can come up with more original choices please.哎哟 [Āiyō]…
(34:15):
As always, there’s a bunch more contentfrom my great conversation with Michael in
the PREMIUM version of the show, please headto his page on mosaicofchina.com where you’ll
find links to subscribing to that version,either in China or overseas. Here are a few
clips from that extended conversation: [Clip 1] (34:33):
undefined
MH (34:37):
The only ones who are well paid are the pilots and the management.
[Clip 2]MH: I always try to find 天安门 [Tiān’ānmén]
Square or the Forbidden City, I love lookingout of the window.
[Clip 3]MH: And they slammed on the brakes, and they
were about 30 centimetres from a wall.[Clip 4]
They make a lot of new First Officers, but turning them into Captains takes time.
[Clip 5]OF: So much of the airspace is dedicated to
(34:59):
the military, right?MH: All of it.
OF (35:01):
All of it. MH
[Clip 6]MH: Why didn't you report it? Are you lying
to us?OF: Yeah.
[Clip 7]MH: Then he tells me “Climb to 10,400 metres.”
Then I tell him “Climb to 10,400 metres.”Then we set 10,400 metres.
[Clip 8]MH: The windows, they are heated.
They’re heated? MH
be flexible.[Clip 9]
MH (35:18):
I shouted “No, no, no, don't do that!” So I got a little bit loud.
[Clip 10]MH: If we have really long flights, then we
could listen to music. But I never do that,because somehow I want to hear what's going
on.OF: Yeah.
[Clip 11]MH: If you fly in the evening, you can see
the night coming.OF: Ah.
You see the shadow of the earth. [End of Audio Clips]
OF (35:35):
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artwork by Denny Newell. After the music,
there’s a short catch-up Vittorio Franzesefrom Season 02 Episode 27, which we recorded
shortly after the lockdown ended in Shanghailast year, so it’s interesting to hear our
feelings from that time. Take care, and I’llsee you back here for the next episode.
(35:59):
[Catch-Up Interview]OF: Hello Vitto.
VF (36:04):
Hi Oscar, nice to be here again. OF
sure there are some people who would equatethe word ‘lockdown’ with whatever they
experienced as lockdown. But in Shanghai,lockdown means lockdown. I'll tell you one
(36:26):
thing that I was grateful for - this is goingback to your original episode - one of your
objects was a bag of ‘taralli’. And taralliare these dense breadsticks, which come from
your area of Italy, Puglia. And I rememberyou saying that your mother, your grandmother,
would always put taralli in your suitcasebefore you traveled, because they can save
(36:49):
your life. I had these taralli from your motherall the way through lockdown. So I was so
grateful to you, man. Seriously.VF: They were at the right place in the right
time.OF: Yes.
So they achieved their purpose. And as I said in our first episode I guess, just
a couple of taralli can give you the amountof calories necessary to survive a whole day.
OF (37:11):
Honestly, we actually didn't have many. It wasn't the eating of the taralli, it was
just having it in the house. Especially whenwe couldn't get our hands on food, which was
for a good week or so. We always knew “It'sOK, we have taralli”. It was psychologically
really, really helpful.VF: You make me feel stingy, because I could
(37:31):
have given you more. You only had a few, butI’m happy they were useful.
For people who didn't listen to your earlier episode, you are a lawyer. And actually, I
didn't mention it in our episode, but it'sone of the most famous law firms in Italy,
right?VF: Yes, correct. It’s in the top two or
three law firms in Italy. So we are, let'ssay, holding up. The Hong Kong office is giving
(37:56):
me enough support to survive here alone bymyself in temporary absence of colleagues.
Because, yeah, the office is at the momentonly myself.
Oh, my word. VF
That’s incredible. Because you're actually not very old, right? How old are you now?
VF (38:12):
34. OF
the biggest law firm in Italy.VF: Yeah, it's circumstances that made it
happen. I was not chosen to be the representativehere for sure. There were going to be people
more experienced and mature me to have thisrole. But we mentioned it in the first episode.
This is China (38:30):
the unexpected turns. I find myself being here representing the office,
and if you asked me this in 2017 right beforeentering this firm, I would have never expected
that. Let's just ride this wave and see whatcomes with it.
OF (38:47):
Yeah. It is interesting, this dichotomy: “Do I leave? Or do I stay and see if I can
capitalise on this opportunity, at the sametime?”
VF (38:57):
Exactly. The reaction I'm seeing in foreigners is “I am fed up, I want to leave this country”.
On the other side, "Wow there's going to bea lot of space for us.” Foreigners and foreign
companies, they're going to still be the bridgebetween certain mindsets. So why not take
advantage of this in a positive way?OF: Yes. What has been keeping you busy in
(39:22):
the last 18 months in your law firm?VF: I'm still considered as the counterfeit
strategy / counterfeit action ‘expert inmatter’, due to my previous experience in
Beijing. As we said, it was unique. So I stilllike to address that problem in a certain
(39:43):
way, it's still a passion for me. Nonetheless,in the past 18 months, many companies that
approached us do believe that there's spacein the Chinese market. And we're not talking
about mass production here, they are moreinterested in the economical power of the
Chinese middle class. So they are interestedin maybe setting up a commercial branch more
(40:09):
than a production branch.OF: Right, so they can sell to the market,
rather than produce things here.VF: Indeed, indeed. This is also challenging
and very interesting.OF: Well Vitto, thank you so much for coming.
We had intended for you to refer your partnerTerika for the next season. Terika is in the
middle of a career change, so we decided maybeit’ll be better to do that in a future season.
(40:34):
So we will definitely get Terika back, I hope.In the meantime I found a replacement. So
what I will do is, I will put this catch-upat the end of this new replacement’s episode.
So at least you are still part of the Mosaic,and I hope that Terika will be too.
Thank you so much again for inviting me, it's been nice to catch up.
OF (40:51):
Thanks Vitto.
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