December 12, 2022 • 44 mins
The environment is one of those topics that we all know we need to talk about, but at the same time desperately want to avoid. None of us want to be lectured on all the things we're doing wrong, and none of us need yet another reminder about how the human race is mismanaging its impact on the planet. So it's a breath of fresh air to have a conversation with someone who is not only passionate about the environment but also... fun. In today's episode, Alizée Buysschaert talks about the way she personally challenged herself to reduce 90% of the waste that she produced every day. And how this challenge led to a number of personal and professional reinventions. The episode also includes catch-up interviews with: Katherine Wong from Season 02 Episode 04 https://mosaicofchina.com/season-02-episode-04-katherine-wong and Angie Wu from Season 01 Episode 18 https://mosaicofchina.com/season-01-episode-18-angie-wu 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 01:30 - Part 1 24:41 - Part 2 32:07 - Outro 35:07 - Catch-Up Interview [1] 39:55 - Catch-Up Interview [2] Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at: https://mosaicofchina.com/season-03-episode-13-alizee-buysschaert Join the community: Instagram https://instagram.com/oscology LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/mosaicofchina Facebook https://facebook.com/mosaicofchina WeChat https://mosaicofchina.com/wechat
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
[Trailer]AB: Whenever
(00:03):
I'm on stage, I look fly. You want tobe my friend after I'm done talking.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
The tone of so many of these episodes of Mosaicof China has been about starting new things,
(00:24):
and the way in which the energy of China keepspropelling us forward. But if you’ve been
listening carefully, you will also know that thesearen’t linear stories of growth and opportunity,
most of us go through cycles where we’re movingforward for a period, and then hitting roadblocks
that make us pause, pivot and reinvent. As we’recoming to the end of the tumultuous year of 2022,
(00:47):
I think a lot of us in China are only tooaware of the highs and lows of these cycles.
My guest today Alizée is a perfect example ofsomeone who speaks to these cycles, not just as
a metaphor for what it’s like to live and workin China, but also in the way they describe the
broader world of sustainability and our impacton the environment. If you’re anything like me,
(01:09):
the moment you hear the word ‘environment’, you’realready hovering over the fast-forward button.
Do I really need to listen to yetanother person lecturing me about
all the things I should be doing, and howhumans have so utterly ruined the planet?
Well do not worry, this isnot one of those podcasts,
and Alizée is not one of those guests. Sostop hovering, and let’s start the show.
(01:29):
[Part 1]OF:
Thank you Alizée, nice to see you.AB: Nice to see you too,
Oscar. Really happy to be here.OF: I purposefully just said your first name,
because I have no idea how to pronounceyour family name. So let's hear it from you.
AB (01:43):
Alizée Buysschaert. OF
I said it in the French way. OF
It's a French name? No.AB: Honestly yes,
because I think the root of my family namecomes from a small town in France called
Buysschaert.OF: OK.
Because you know, I grew up in Belgium where we speak Dutch. So it's
like ‘Buysschaert’ in Dutch.OF: ‘Buysschaert’.
(02:04):
It does sound like I'm swearing at you right now.AB: Yeah!
OF (02:08):
So shall I call you Alizée ‘Buysschaert’ or do you prefer ‘Buysschaert’, or what is it?
AB (02:09):
The first one was actually perfect, great pronunciation.
OF (02:13):
Thank you. AB
‘Buysschaert’. So you are Belgian, right? That’s where you come from.
AB (02:17):
Yes. I grew up in many places - Ghent, Antwerp, Brussels - but all in the Flemish
part of Belgium. Speaking French at homeand then going to Dutch school. So I was
raised with the two languages.OF: And how is your Chinese?
My Chinese, to speak, is not good. I speak like a five-year-old. But I understand
it like a ten-year-old.OF: Congratulations for
making it to a ten-year-old.AB: Thank you, thank you. I
(02:38):
think the trip lately, it helped me quite a bit.OF: Ah, well we're already going into your story.
So before we get too far, I have to ask you thequestion: What is the object that you have brought
that in some way represents your life in China?AB: OK, so it's funny because when I chose the
object, it actually made me think ofsomething else that related to you.
OF (02:57):
Oh, OK. Explain what that is. AB
skull. This, for me, representsa story called ‘Skeleton Woman’.
‘Skeleton Woman’? AB
about death and rebirth, and how we all go throughdeaths and rebirths through our lives. For me,
my life in China has been about birthing a personthat I thought I wanted to be. And I am still
(03:19):
partially that person. But afterwards it came withmany small deaths of the person that I am not. And
I think there's no better place in the world,according to me, to have this experience in such
a short amount of time than in China. So yeah.OF: And I'm trying to think what a skeleton
woman has to do with me. You said it hasa connection to me? What do you mean?
AB (03:38):
The first time I saw you was on stage at Unravel. And it was actually, I think,
about the Mexican holiday of ‘Day of theDead’, where we honour the ones who passed.
OF (03:48):
Wow! OK that's a nice reference. Well, you’ve said something which reminds me of the person who
introduced you from last season, Katherine Wong.AB: Katherine Wong.
So let's listen to this. [Start of Audio Clip]
KW (04:01):
Definitely Alizée. She's a very special person. She's the founder of Zero Waste Shanghai.
OF (04:08):
Zero waste, OK. KW
think, growing everywhere in the world right now.[End of Audio Clip]
AB (04:15):
So I met Katherine at a market, she was selling her candles. And we connected
over her candles. And then, I don'tknow, I just love that person so much.
OF (04:24):
Yeah. AB
We helped each other out a lot.OF: Yeah.
AB (04:29):
Yeah. OF
here in Shanghai. Have you seen her recently?AB: Yeah I have, I have. I've been in China
for almost eight years. Most of that time,like my dear friend Katherine just said,
I ran a company in sustainability called ZeroWaste Shanghai, where I was supporting people
and companies to move towards a circulareconomy. So I did this for six years.
OF (04:51):
Right. The thing that I immediately think about when I hear someone talk about zero waste
and sustainability is… “Boring!” Like, isn't thisthe problem? I don't want to hear it. I don't want
to hear anything about this bloody environmentanymore. I know! We’re killing the world.
AB (05:08):
Yeah. OF
around that immediate knee-jerk reaction?AB: Well… OK so yeah, there are the people
who don't want to hear about it. Believe me, themajority of my work, I've been amongst people like
this. But I think I really saw sustainabilityas something cool. So when I'm on stage and I
talk about it, you can feel the passion. AndI think that's what changes the game. And then
(05:32):
the way that I talk about it, I tried from thevery beginning to stay away from the ‘hippie'
thing. Like, “Don't buy anything. Look liketrash, it's fine.” Like, I'm on the opposite
of this. Whenever I'm on stage, I look fly. Youwant to be my friend after I'm done talking,
that’s my goal. And it worked. I was verypositive. I talk about the problems for maybe
15 minutes out of a one-hour talk. And thenafterwards, I give you all the solutions that
(05:55):
I see. “And this person did this; and this companydid this. And how cool are they? And look at them”
and blah blah blah. And making it inspiring,where people are like “Oh yeah, it's true!”
OF (06:04):
Right. So you said for six years you had this company. So what was the company?
AB (06:08):
It actually started with just me changing my lifestyle. I gave myself one year to reduce 90%
of the waste that I produced every day. Itwas completely personal, I was working in a
corporate company before.OF: Uh-huh.
And I started sharing this with my friends. And then my friends were like “Oh, this is cool.”
And then we created this little group on WeChat.And then they started adding their friends. And
then, I don't know, the group blew up. Andpeople asked me for more and more content,
(06:32):
and tips and things. And I just kept on giving.OF: And you weren't even an expert,
you just were doing this by yourself.AB: I mean, I was doing my master’s
thesis at the time on the circular economy inthe fashion industry. And so I had quite a bit
of knowledge on this topic already. And it'sactually my frustration with the lack of action
around the world that really made me start takingaction within my own life. Because I thought "What
(06:54):
can I do today - right now - to change that?”OF: And so what was that first thing you did?
The first thing I did was very simple. No more plastic bags, no more plastic straws, no more
plastic takeaway cups, and no more take-out food?OF: Actually, that’s quite a big step
straightaway, I would say.AB: I mean, at the time I was
cooking quite a bit. Take-out was more a thingwe did on the weekends. The thing in China
(07:15):
is - I'm going to talk about 2016 China - like,organic food was just not available in China.
OF (07:21):
Right. AB
organic food. Because there were many industries,and industries contaminate the water and the
soils. So today, I would say I would trust it.OF: A-ha.
AB (07:31):
2016, absolutely not. So at the time when I was doing zero waste, people said “I
understand I cannot have plastic, but at thesame time I need my vegetables - or my rice,
or my quinoa, or whatever - to come fromNew Zealand or Australia or Thailand”.
OF (07:44):
Oh I see. AB
they did not trust the filters that today you caninstal on your tap and your shower. They did not
trust to drink the water from the filters.OF: Yes.
AB (07:53):
So they said “For me, the best thing is to buy bottled water for my kid.”
OF (07:57):
Are you saying now that the filters are as safe as having bottled water?
AB (08:01):
I think today there is no big difference indeed between bottled
water and filtered water, because…OF: Here in Shanghai at least.
… Here in Shanghai, yes. Because to be honest, they're both water that has nothing
in it. It has no minerals. So then what Isay to my Chinese audience is “Add flowers
to your water. Drink infused water.”Flowers contain so many great things,
(08:24):
and - depending on the season - your body needsthose things. For example, you would have hibiscus
in your water in the summer, because it's reallygood for your skin. Now in this time, fall, you
have Chinese dates. Otherwise, it's just liquidthat doesn't add anything to your diet either.
OF (08:37):
OK, gosh. I just know what's going to happen in this interview, I am going to get more and more
upset with the things that I'm not doing. I'lltry and keep those comments to myself. Wait so the
idea is then, you have filtered water, you put itinto a jug, and you infuse that with the flowers,
and then from that jug is what you drink?AB: Yes.
Oh. Is it the case, then, that no matter where you are in the world, you should be
(09:02):
doing this? Or is this specifically for China?AB: I think it's anywhere you are in the world,
you need this. To enhance the nutrientsthat you get out of these elements.
Hmm. Do you have evidence about this kind of thing?
AB (09:11):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I am no doctor, but I have read enough. And then for me very frankly,
it's also common sense. Because today, you canfind papers that argue both cases of anything.
OF (09:21):
Yeah. AB
my industry is meat. To have meat or not to havemeat. To be vegan or not to be vegan, right? There
are so many documents and reports on both cases.OF: That's what makes it confusing. That's
what makes everyone think “Oh the wholething's bull****, I’ll just do what I do.”
AB (09:39):
And that’s fine. Like, when I go on stage, I say “Listen, the last thing that I want out of
this conversation is for you to feel guilty. I'mjust here because I'm sharing what I do. And you
take whatever you want out of this.”OF: That’s such a good philosophy,
isn't it? Because if you lookat the entirety of the problem,
that's when you think “Eugh. Well you can't doanything, we might as well give up.” But I think
what you say is correct. If you can focus on theone thing you can change today, then do that.
(10:01):
And then maybe in a week's time - in a year'stime, whatever - then do the next thing, right?
That’s probably how you've done it yourself.AB: No exactly. But also, start with the thing
that you want to change. Don’t change thingsthat you don't want to change. And definitely
don't change purely out of guilt, because thatguilt is only going to last you so long. And
I'd rather you be half-perfect, but at least youcan maybe inspire and convince others around you.
(10:23):
That’s really all that I'm asking for.OF: Mm-hm. Well let's get back to your
story. So you were saying how you - firstof all - quit those plastics. What was the
next stage in your personal progression?AB: So the next stage was changing small
things such as composting. Composting became thisnext thing that I did, which honestly became the
foundation of my business afterwards.OF: Oh.
Because within six months of me changing my lifestyle, I had F&B venues coming up to me
(10:47):
saying “Hey, can you come to my space for freeand do a talk, or an event, or a workshop?” And
I had no idea what to share. So I went to thecommunity on WeChat, and I was like “Hey guys,
would you want a workshop or an event?” Andeveryone was like “A workshop!” And I was
like "Cool, what do you want to learn?” Andeveryone was like “Compost bins for sure.”
OF (11:03):
Is that right? Composting was so popular. AB
was completely non-sexy. But it was something thateveryone wanted to do. I thought I was going to
do one workshop, once. But I started doing themevery weekend. And then the people coming to my
workshops would be managers, or CEOs.OF: Ah.
AB (11:21):
And then of course, when I start talking, I say, “Hi, my name is Alizée, I'm currently
researching the circular economy.” So the peoplewere like “Oh, she knows what she's talking
about."OF: Oh I see. So actually composting became the ‘way in’, for you to talk about
bigger subjects as part of that demonstration.AB: I mean, you give me a room with 25 people
in it, I'm going to influence the roomand make sure that they know more than
just how to put worms into a bin.OF: I mean, I love it. I love how
(11:44):
this became your brand. Youwere the ‘composting queen'
at that point.AB: I was.
OF (11:47):
OK! AB
of our lives. 35-40% of our waste is food waste.OF: Is that right? Even with all the plastics?
AB (11:55):
Yes, it's enormous. So when I was looking at how I could reduce more waste, composting was an
obvious solution to cut it down by a lot.OF: Right.
And so I started looking into how I could do this in an urban setting. So I tried it out,
I had some trial and error. But I put foodin there, and then within month - or a
month and a half - you have soil.OF: Wow, which is basically worm poo.
(12:15):
Basically worm poo. It's a small bin. It's about 40 centimetres long, 25 centimetres high,
something like that. It’s a very small bin. Andit has a tray under it, and you put some wet paper
into it, add your worms, and then add some coconutfibre. And the worms will actually eat the paper
and the coconut fibre brick together with yourfood, and their poop is basically the compost. And
(12:37):
then you top it up with a piece of hemp. Becausein summer, flies would come in. So basically…
OF (12:42):
Yes! That's why I'm thinking, goddammit! I don't want a bloody box
full of worm poo and flies in my house.AB: So the thing is the compost bin does
not smell. Because you will not beputting any dairy or meats in it.
Oh so wait, no dairy, no meat. AB
animal fat, no to anything too fried.OF: Because that's what makes it smelly.
AB (13:02):
That's what makes it smelly. OF
I know, I know. So the biggest question is 'Can we put oil in it?" I'm like “Well, if you're
tossing a salad with olive oil, yes no problem.But if you're gonna have your 四川 [Sìchuān]
hotpot / stir-fried noodles, like no.” There’stoo much spice, too much fat, too much oil.
OF (13:19):
That’s half of China right there! AB
I know. But if you have a very meat- anddairy-heavy diet, then I usually recommend
people to have a ぼかし [bokashi] bin next to it.OF: ぼかし [Bokashi], this sounds
Japanese. What the hell’s that?AB: It is Japanese. So ぼかし [bokashi]
is a fermentation process.OF: Oh.
AB (13:36):
The lid is air-tight. Whereas in a compost bin, absolutely not,
you need air in a compost bin.OF: Otherwise, dead worms.
Otherwise, dead worms. But also because of the process.
OF (13:46):
Yes, yes. AB
and you leave it like this for seven days, thefood will be completely fermented. And then you
can add this afterwards to your compost heap.OF: And it won't smell.
AB (13:56):
Exactly. OF
And then your worms can eat it. OF
But it’s an extra step. OF
is a solution for people who eat meat, right?AB: Listen, I have diehard believers in this
concept, who have two ぼかし [bokashi] bins,five compost bins on their balcony. Like,
they're on it. And their kids love it as well,because for kids they can see the process. That's
also a great thing.OF: Yeah.
That’s why schools are a huge part of our work as well.
OF (14:20):
Yeah, but you're making me light up like a child. Like,
I want to see this too. I want to see these worms!AB: No, everyone! Everyone wants to see them.
Yes! OK, now I can see why it's popular. OF
the company. Because you realises that therewas a revenue stream in selling composting kits.
AB (14:34):
Yeah, the composting kits were my bread and butter for the majority of my
business life, because even when I wasnon giving them to people on weekends,
other services became a spin-off of this one.Honestly, it has been our bread and butter.
OF (14:46):
Can you put bread and butter into the compost bin?
AB (14:49):
You can actually. OF
you can use that metaphor.AB: Yes.
OF (14:54):
Yeah, I can see why. Because how else would you make money? You don't want to get paid,
because you want to spread the word.AB: No, that's not true, I want to get
paid. I want to get paid. No, a thousand percent.I'm from a family of women entrepreneurs. Both
my grandmothers and my mother are entrepreneurs.That's why the circular economy was so amazing for
(15:16):
me, because it was the first time where I couldsee my love for the planet and business actually
come together. And so when I started a company,I didn't have a choice, I had bills to pay. So if
you want to hear me to speak - or if you wantfor me to come to your company - of course,
you'll have to pay. But that’s something that Ifought against very much in the beginning. Because
I had clients just point-blank look me in the eyeand be like “But why don't you do this for free?
(15:38):
Like, this is something good.” And I'm like “OK,so large companies who are ruining the planet,
it’s good for them to get paid a lot of money? Butfor me, who is trying to actually fix the problem,
I should do this for free.?”OF: Yes. Yes, what I said
would have been quite insulting.“You want to do it for free?” No!
AB (15:53):
No. OF
Of course. OF
economy”. And I do kind of know what it means, butit probably would be useful for you to define it.
OK to explain the circular economy I have to explain to you what the ‘linear economy’ is first.
OF (16:07):
Oh. AB
we live in today, which means we extract resourcesfrom the earth, we create a product - let’s say,
my phone - I use it, and when I'm done usingit, I toss it away. Our phones - or any product,
for that matter - are not made to be recycled.Recycling is therefore today a very water-,
energy-, and chemical-intensive process. It'smessy. And so the circular economy is where,
(16:31):
from the very beginning, the designers willthink “OK, this phone belongs to us. So at
the end of the user lifecycle, we need to getit back. And when we get it back, we need to
be efficient. Therefore, we need to design it in away that - when it gets back to us - we’re able to
dismantle it really easily, so that we can keepup to 90-95% of the raw materials.” Therefore,
(16:51):
companies are not reliant any more on thefluctuations of the raw materials markets,
because it's really unsustainable. So whatI really urge my clients is to say like “How
can you become owners of the materials that youput out into the world? And if you own them, it
means you need to get them back as well.” So now,instead of me buying my phone, you pay smaller
fees over a time. But when you're done using it -when it's broken, whatever - I want it back. And
(17:14):
so the concept of waste doesn't exist anymore.OF: The concept of ownership
doesn't exist anymore.AB: I mean, yes, to a certain extent. I mean,
again, in the circular economy there aretwo cycles. There are the technical cycles,
and then there are the biological cycles.So for example, our clothes would be part of
the biological cycles, because they're made frombiological materials. For the biological cycles,
we use the term ‘consumer’, because we‘consume’ them. In the technical cycles,
(17:38):
we use the term ‘user’ because we're ‘using’them, but we're not ‘consuming’ our tech.
Mm-hmm. AB
Philips do this with lighting, other companiesdo this with their washing machines… Your car,
I mean I work with car companies, and there'sa big discussion about ‘What is the future for
cars?’ Like, the loss of ownership. Again, there'sno black and white. I want to own a car one day,
(18:00):
because I love to drive. But if I'm in a city,I don't need to own a car, it’s so much trouble.
Yeah. And so what's stopping us doing that now?
AB (18:10):
Because we don't have the data right now. OF
Yes. The industry of sustainability is very young. And it's a process. It starts from the
design of the products. But the design of theproduct has to work together with the people who
are at the other end of that cycle, who are therecyclers or people who take it apart. So those
two have to talk, which is why it's ‘circular’.OF: And your job in this is like a conduit,
(18:34):
right? You are the conduit?AB: Exactly, yeah. I always
hear about companies, startups… So ifyou need a connection to a network,
I'm your person. I'm just like “Let'ssave money. Let's get to this quick. And
let's have something that actuallyworks. Because I don't want you to
lose money or time. And I make it really sexy.OF: Hello! OK. Let’s then go back to your story.
So you had started off in not using plastics, youthen went into composting. I want to know how far
(19:00):
down this track did you go in your personal life?AB: Ooh, I went very far.
And I was not happy there at all.OF: Oh, really?
Yeah. I was brushing my teeth with powder. I was hardcore vegan. I was not buying anything,
I was only buying secondhand. I wasbarely travelling. Then at some point,
(19:22):
other people were challenging me. And thenI was running a company, and people in the
company were looking up to me. And then when Iwas out in public, you would never see me with
anything that's not sustainable. You would neversee me with any plastic beverage whatever, ever,
ever. Because I was so conscious of…OF: Yeah I mean, that's your brand.
That’s my brand. OF
be a hypocrite if you did anything else.AB: Exactly. When people see me at events,
(19:43):
they ask me where I bought these things…OF: Oh, just to test you.
Yeah, yeah. They're like “So… your kimono right now…?”
OF (19:49):
“Are you sure…” And you had to justify that, yeah.
AB (19:52):
Yeah. OF
said it, that you weren't happy at this peak?AB: No. So I'm gonna admit it. I buy things
because I like the packaging.OF: Like anyone else.
Like anyone else. I love to buy new stuff. And I'm a foodie. So if you and I are somewhere
in 云南 [Yúnnán], and there's some amazing pieceof meat that I have to try, like I'm sorry,
(20:12):
yes I will want to try this. So I came to a pointin my life were all the things I brought me joy,
I took them away from myself. And so that's whenI started allowing myself again to change. To be
like “OK, I don't have to be this extremeperson, because it's not helping me. And
therefore it's not helping anyone else.”Because I think more people relate to me
as being ‘not perfect’. So yeah, so todayI say I'm ‘plant-based’, but I have meat
(20:35):
occasionally. Not every week. But also if I seesomething nice in a store that I have to buy new,
I will buy it new. If I forget my cup, I will -unfortunately, yes - take a take-away wake up. Do
I do this daily? No. I am of course very consciousstill. I still don't buy bottled water. I mean,
of course, straws, plastic bags, small thingslike this. It's just, I'm not extreme any more.
OF (20:56):
Mmm. We were talking about the circular economy. Let me take this conversation circular,
right back to the beginning,when you said you've just come
back from a trip. So what was this recent trip?AB: So just like for many of us, 2020/2021 was
pretty challenging. 2019 was our best year yet.OF: As a company, you mean?
AB (21:17):
As a company. We grew commercially, financially, so much. Like, we were ready
for 2020 being the best year ever.OF: Uh-huh. Guess what,
I know the ending of this story.AB: Mm-hmm. So my company has broken apart,
I rebuilt it, broken apart, rebuilt it. SoI was like “OK this is going to be another
one of those episodes, where I have tobreak the company apart and rebuild it.”
OF (21:36):
And reinvent it to something again. Like “Again,
I have to put all this effort into it again.”AB: Exactly. So it was very very difficult. And
I came to a point where I was really depressed.“What am I doing? What am I doing it for?” Blah
blah blah. We were talking about the skull, like‘death and rebirth’, and that was a really big
death for me. And then I was questioning myself,what is the one thing that I really wanted to do?
(21:59):
And the only thing I came up with, was that Ialways wanted as a kid to be an adventurer. And
you would either find me somewhere in nature, oryou would find me in my van. And people said “Oh
my god, you should do this.” And so we call theproject ‘the KAILU project’. 开路 [Kāilù] means
'open road’ in Chinese.OF: Ah yes.
AB (22:18):
But also ‘blazing a new path.’ And… OF
it can be interpreted in a verydeep way if you want it to, right?
Exactly. And the thing is, I've made many friends in the sustainability realm in China.
But those people don't live in Shanghai.OF: Yeah.
They live across the country. And I always said "If I can one day do something
with them, it would be so cool”. And then theidea came to create a documentary series where
(22:43):
I would be living in my van. I didn't end up goingwith a van. Because I had to build it myself - the
interior, that is - and it would have taken me2-3 months. So I rented out an electric car,
and I drove around China for two months to goand meet people - my friends, basically - who
do really cool things in sustainability whohave built a community around this. So I went,
(23:05):
I travelled, and I sat down with them, and Iinterviewed them. I made short video clips,
and I'm publishing this on YouTube, WeChat,Instagram. Then afterwards, I would love to
take KAILU outside of China.OF: Nice.
And keep doing this, and this be my life's work. To really just go and meet people. Because
this is truly who I am. I am someone who needsto be outside, I love connecting with people, I'm
(23:27):
curious. What makes me happy is to be in a van,waking up, and going to meet people who are so
freaking interesting. Basically your job, almost.OF: I'm thinking, this is like a mix between what
I'm doing and Greta Thunberg. So you'relike a nicer, less selfish version of me.
Yeah, totally. And I can see how this isan extension of what you're already doing,
(23:49):
because you are giving presentations. Which isyou, and you're being very inspiring. But then
if you can get somebody else's story as partof that, it helps to amplify and magnify the
inspiration. I can totally see how it would work.AB: Yeah, exactly. And right now it's done. I'm
back in Shanghai, because I'm stillinterviewing people here as well.
OF (24:07):
Aha. AB
the beginning. I feel like now I'm scouting,testing the thing out. But man, if this could
be my full time gig, that'd be amazing.OF: Yeah. Well, that's the ultimate luxury,
if you could do that - which not just speaks toyour own passion, but also speaks to saving the
world, and at the same time is something which issustainable from a financial perspective - then
that’s it, baby.AB: That’s it.
(24:27):
I wish you all the best. What you are doing - what you have done - is to try and
make this topic - which is annoying andboring - you’ve tried to make it sexy and
inspiring. Being in your company, I can feelit. Thank you Alizée, we’ll move on to Part 2.
[Part 2]OF: Alright Alizée.
AB (24:44):
Yes. OF
the 10 questions. So I ask everyguest these same 10 questions.
So we will start now. Question 1, which thisseason is brought to us by Shanghai Daily:
What is your favourite China-related fact?AB: There was only one female empress who
ruled in China, 武則天 [Wǔ Zétiān].And during her reign, China was
(25:07):
pretty prosperous and stable. And I love that.OF: Female rulers. You know what, you're the third
person to say that as their favourite China fact.AB: Shut up.
OF (25:16):
Yeah. AB
In Season 01 it was the comedian from Inner Mongolia, Maple Zuo. And in Season 02
it was the heavy metal bar owner CassandraChen. So you are in good company. She is
her own empress right now. The composite empress.AB: I am.
Question 02, which is brought to us by Rosetta Stone:
(25:38):
Do you have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?AB: Oh yes. I mean, I use 可以 [kěyǐ] even in
Belgium. But no, my friend Myles in 甘肃[Gānsù] taught me 不卑不亢 [bùbēibùkàng].
不卑不亢 [bùbēibùkàng]. AB
but also not too humble’. It's the right balancebetween being a proud person, but not arrogant.
(25:59):
I like it. And does this encapsulate what you do as a person? Or who you are?
AB (26:04):
I don't think I would manifest my pride out in public, but it's definitely sometimes in my head.
OF (26:09):
Yeah. AB
it's just a good reminder to be like “You're nobetter than anyone else. No one else is better
than you. Just do what you have to do.”OF: Yeah. What is your favourite
destination within China?AB: 大理 [Dàlǐ] in 云南 [Yúnnán].
大理 [Dàlǐ]. AB
settle somewhere, I'll be going to 大理 [Dàlǐ]. It'sthe perfect place of creativity, entrepreneurship,
(26:30):
nature and the luxuries of Shanghai.OF: Oh it has luxuries of Shanghai?
AB (26:35):
Uh-huh. Coffee shops, bakeries, cute stores, nice little restaurants.
OF (26:39):
Yeah. AB
Shanghai, in between a lake and the mountains.OF: Mmm. Very nice. Zhang Yuan - he is a curator
of a museum, he does performance art - andhe was saying that he liked 大理 [Dàlǐ] last
season because the people think differently, hewas saying. The people are a bit more artistic,
and the clouds are always there. So it hasthis kind of mystery about it, 大理 [Dàlǐ].
AB (26:59):
Absolutely agree. Everyone there is an artist. The creativity is like a skyrocket. And they're
making money, and they're living an amazing life.OF: Nice. Next question. If you left China,
what would you miss the most?AB: I would miss my life as it is right now,
the most. With the friends that I have, thelifestyle that I have, the person that I am.
(27:23):
I've had the experience when I'm outside ofChina that I lose a connection with myself. It's
difficult to keep that alive, especially when I'min Belgium. When I'm in Dubai or Thailand, I get
it. The connection is still there. But when I'min Belgium, it's difficult to grasp that person.
OF (27:41):
I know exactly what you mean. You kind of feel like you regress, don't you?
AB (27:45):
Exactly. That's exactly how I feel. OF
that still surprises you about life in China?AB: Yesterday, I saw a child pooping in the
middle of a pedestrian street. Pooping.Like, I’d seen peeing before. But
pooping. It… it really disturbed me.OF: That's rare these days, right?
It’s quite rare. And again, it's the poo thing. I’d never seen pooping before.
OF (28:10):
I wonder if it actually was a tourist? AB
right there in the middle.OF: Oh. There you go. Oh wow. Yep,
that would be a surprise. Next question, whichcomes from SmartShanghai: Where is your favourite
place to go out, to eat or drink or hang out?AB: My favourite place to drink and hang out is
(28:31):
The Room. It's a small coffee shop on 泰安 [Tài’ān]Road. Very cute, very nice, they have the most
amazing lemon scones. Yeah, I'm not a partyanimal. So I don't drink as much. And otherwise
food-wise, anywhere with 云南 [Yúnnán] food, 东北[Dōngběi] food. I don't have a specific place,
to be honest. I love to try new things.OF: Yeah. What is the best or
(28:54):
worst purchase you have made in China?AB: OK. So the best purchase is for sure one
of my ceramics. I bought so much ceramic.OF: Is there one particular one?
AB (29:04):
Yes, there is one plate that I bought in 景德镇 [Jǐngdézhèn], which is black and has some gold on
it. It’s that plate for sure. 景德镇 [Jǐngdézhèn]is famous for ceramics, it's where the royal
kilns used to be, thousands of years ago. It'sthe place where you go for the best porcelain,
the best ceramics in China. I mean, thecity is not beautiful. They're working on
(29:25):
it. But there are so many artists studiosthat are just in these old little houses.
It's a goldmine.OF: Thank you. Now the next
question, what is your favourite WeChat sticker?AB: The one where Adele is laughing so hard,
and she falls on her face on thiscouch. It's just my favourite.
OF (29:46):
That’s a good one, I've never seen that one. AB
Where have I been? AB
watching it makes me happy.OF: Thank you.
AB (29:55):
You’re welcome. OF
What is your go-to song to sing at KTV?AB: ‘I Want It That Way’ by the Backstreet Boys.
OF (30:02):
Ah! AB
CD that my dad burned for me.OF: Oh nice.
AB (30:08):
Yeah. I don't know. I just feel so much love and joy. And it's romantic. And it’s… Ach. It’s
so cheesy, I love it. It’s like “You are myfire”. Its so good, you may catch me on my
scooter singing this full-on.OF: Oh god.
Honestly, I sing on my scooter. I'm just like “Na na na!” Cos I don’t care.
OF (30:29):
Who needs KTV, right? AB
And finally, who or what is your best source of inspiration in China?
AB (30:37):
I want to say the people that are interviewed. Because I have a crush on a different person every
couple of months. So right now I'm really reallyinspired by my friend Rio from 大理 [Dàlǐ], who I
interviewed recently. She is just a creative, anentrepreneur, someone who lives outside in nature.
And I'm like “You are my vision of success”.OF: Well on that note - especially looking at your
(31:04):
object still on this desk, which is the birth,and the death, the rebirth - maybe it's time for
a rebirth, I'll see you in 大理 [Dàlǐ] at one point.AB: Let’s do it.
OF (31:12):
Thank you so much, Alizée. AB
such a good time with you today, it was amazing.OF: Oh yeah, we could still keep on talking. But
I have to let you go. Before I do, the last thingI will ask before you leave is, out of everyone
you know in China, who do you recommend that Iinterview in the next season of Mosaic of China?
AB (31:33):
Definitely I would recommend Shutong, 刘疏桐 [Liú Shūtóng]. He is an entrepreneur - I
think he's now based in 南京 [Nánjīng] - whoturns cooking oil into biogas/biodiesel.
OF (31:43):
Oh. AB
this in collaboration with the 南京 [Nánjīng]government and large companies. He is very
inspirational to me, in our industry.OF: That sounds great. And if there was
one question that you wouldask him, what would you ask?
AB (31:58):
I would ask him what is something that he does daily that contributes to the way he works?
OF (32:05):
I like it. AB
Thank you so much Alizée. AB
[Outro]OF: Well, the theme of death and
rebirth has continued for Alizée, who is now basedback in Belgium. As you heard in the episode,
in the past she had always felt strange goingback to her home country when she visited from
China. But I’m happy to report that she hasn’tlost touch with her true identity, and she’s
(32:28):
enjoying a new role combining her twin passions ofthe environment and content creation in Antwerp.
We’re sorry to see you leave Alizée, but at thesame time looking forward to see what you do next.
Speaking about the theme of birth and death,Alizée mentioned the connection to my appearance
at the Unravel storytelling series. Youcan type in the search terms ‘Oscology’
(32:52):
and ‘Remember Me’ and the YouTube video of thatstory should pop up. Alizée’s channel ‘KAILU,
The Open Road’ is also there. And while you’reonline, also check out all the graphics that
go together with today’s episode, eitheron mosaicofchina.com or on social media.
(33:12):
That’s where you’ll also find information on howto subscribe to the PREMIUM version of the show,
where there are extended versionsof all Mosaic of China interviews.
Alizée’s is no exception, here are a fewclips from today’s full-length conversation:
[Clip 1]AB: I came in right before
they closed the borders.OF: Ooooh.
AB (33:29):
Like, 48 hours. [Clip 2]
OF (33:31):
When you talk about kombucha, come on, this is like ‘hipster central’ now.
[Clip 3]AB: I'm sorry, I'm trying to survive here.
Please go give your talk somewhere else.[Clip 4]
AB (33:38):
When we touch dirt, there's a happiness. [Clip 5]
“Time to clean up the beach.” And I'm like “What? No, we’re on a holiday!” He was like “We're
going to clean up the beach.”[Clip 6]
If there's one thing I would say
from everything else.”[Clip 7]
OF (33:50):
Everyone in China, Scooby-Doo. AB
[Clip 8]AB:
Smaller, and cooler, and cuter, and fantastic.[Clip 9]
AB (33:58):
Can I touch the worms? [Clip 10]
She warned me “You're going to cry this evening.” And I cried. And it was amazing.
[Clip 11]AB: If you go vegan and you are sick as a dog,
go back to eating meat.[Clip 12]
OF (34:10):
It’s so different to life in China, it would be like ‘the antidote to China’ at that point.
AB (34:15):
Yes, 100%. [End of Audio Clips]
OF (34:18):
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artwork by Denny Newell. Earlier on, we heard the
voice of Katherine Wong from Season 02 Episode 04recommending Alizée to the show. After the music
you’ll hear a short catch-up with Katherine,and then another catch-up with the person who
referred Katherine, that’s Angie Wu from Season 01Episode 18. It’s great to have these three people
(34:41):
connected through the Mosaic, their stories areso distinct yet feature those themes of birth and
death - invention and re-invention - that Alizéedescribed so well. Speaking of which, we’re about
to say goodbye to another year, so I’ll see youhere next week for the final episode of 2022.
[Catch-Up Interview 1]OF: Katherine,
(35:10):
hello.KW: Hello Oscar!
When I first met you, you were in Shanghai. Then you travelled back to Peru,
where your parents live. And that was whenthe world shut down the first time around.
And you were stuck in Peru at the time.KW: Yes. It was this big uncertainty,
not knowing when I will be able to come back.I was always trying to get this humanitarian
(35:34):
flight all the time.OF: Yeah.
KW (35:36):
After three or four attempts, I managed to get a humanitarian flight to go to Germany,
because that's where my husband is from. And inGermany, I experienced another lockdown again.
OF (35:46):
Oh god. KW
2020 when I was able to finally come back home.OF: So actually, you were locked down in three
different continents.KW: Yes, that's true.
So you were in Peru, and that was with your mother and father,
and your son.KW: Yes.
And then in Germany, you were with who? KW
(36:08):
mostly German.OF: Oh.
KW (36:09):
And I don’t. OF
Around 3-4 months. OF
he was in Shanghai the whole time.KW: Trying to get us back.
OF (36:19):
So out of the three - Peru, and then Germany, and then here in Shanghai quite recently - what
would you say was the hardest one?KW: That's not a tricky question,
I would say this one definitely.OF: The one in Shanghai.
KW (36:33):
Yeah. I mean, the fact that you live in fear of not being able to have enough
food, that was really tough.OF: Yeah. Well, thankfully,
it's in the past for us right now. Maybe it'sa good chance for us to pivot this conversation
to what you do. So for people who haven't heardyour original episode, you are a healer, right?
(36:54):
Yes. OF
Peruvian techniques, and you also sell productsas well. Why don't you give us an update on your
business then, since you got back to China.KW: Yes. So I planned to take things slowly,
but the universe don't want that to happen to me.I started to have people coming to me - they need
help, they want sessions - and I couldn't say no.OF: Yeah.
(37:16):
So it's been the busiest of all my time as a practitioner.
OF (37:22):
Really? KW
And what do you think was the reason? KW
realisation that you need to feel good in yourmind. You need to be balanced, so you are able
to make the right and the best decisions inyour life. To learn and realise about energy,
or about your soul, or spiritual growth.OF: Mmm. And you were saying, even back in
(37:47):
our interview, that you were getting more andmore Chinese customers. Is that what happened?
KW (37:52):
Yes. OF
do you also use crystals now? I remember, thatwas your object from our original interview.
Yes. Every time, in all my sessions. It works to awaken our heart,
for us to remember who we are, why we're hereon earth, what are our skills in this lifetime,
or our purpose. I think it's something veryeasy to find, and very easy to use as well.
OF (38:15):
I mean, I'm still on the side of “Well… Does it work, does it not? I'm not entirely sure." But
I can certainly see how people who believe in it,they do definitely feel better afterwards. So I
should basically do more myself, shouldn't I?KW: Yes.
You did give me, very kindly, one of your flower-scented candles. And I must say, it did
(38:38):
feel very nice when I used it. So I'm still openminded, let’s put it that way. Thank you again,
I want to say thank you also to Angie, who firstintroduced you to Season 02. You're very close
friends, are you still in touch with her?KW: Yes. Still. Always.
Yeah. And the person who you referred to for Season 03, our good friend Alizée.
KW (39:00):
Yes. It's sad that she left, but I guess that's the life here that we
live now in China, right? In Shanghai.OF: Yes. You've been here … what is it,
eighteen years now? Nineteen?KW: Yes, eighteen years.
OF (39:11):
Yeah. So what are your plans for the future? KW
Oh! KW
But we will move. We will move.OF: And do you know where?
KW (39:20):
Most likely Germany. OF
a little bit easier for you toreturn to Peru as well. You're
already halfway there, if you're in Germany.KW: Yes. It's not gonna be 24-hour flight.
OF (39:30):
Well, that's sad news I'm sure for the people who know you here in Shanghai. But I feel quite
lucky that I have you in this window before youleave. So at least we can meet up in person.
KW (39:41):
Yes. OF
I know. Yes. OF
that we will try to keep in touch every year,because who knows where you'll be next time.
Yes. OF
of this Mosaic, so thank you again Katherine.KW: I'm grateful for you. Thank you Oscar.
[Catch-Up Interview 2]OF: Hello Angie.
AW (39:58):
Hello Oscar. OF
you are a jewellery designer.AW: Yes.
OF (40:04):
And you also make it yourself. AW
And then you sell it. You are the A-Z of jewellery in Shanghai.
AW (40:09):
Yes. That's why I'm so tired. OF
when we recorded your first catch-up - I was verysurprised by your energy. You were so much more
relaxed, just lighter than you were on the firsttime that we talked. And then now it's even more
the case. So what has happened?AW: Oh, when was the last time
(40:30):
we met. Which year?OF: I think the first
interview was three years ago.AW: Yeah, that I know.
OF (40:33):
And then the catch up was about 18 months ago. AW
hasn’t changed. So yes, when I first see you -the first 5-10 minutes - I’m just like a speedy
bunny. I’m super fast, and super energetic.What really changed is that I am resolved,
inspired and hopeful for the next chapter ofmy life. I'm going to be 47 in two weeks. And
(41:00):
I just feel like it's gonna be the best age ofmy life. And for many many years, I lost that.
Yes. AW
became a working machine. I work Monday to Sunday,I have this sense of duty, and I want to be worth
my clients’ trust. Shanghai, it's energetic, itsucks you in, and you are in the washing machine.
(41:26):
Exactly. AW
Yeah. AW
But then when the lockdown happened this year, 70%of my expat customers are leaving China for good.
This year is the first year that all the smallbusinesses in Shanghai were hit like a tsunami.
Yeah. AW
(41:46):
are still here since 2014, are the ones who put ineverything: all their savings, all the effort, all
the time. Because we are devoted to this business.And this year, I thought I wouldn't survive. So
I made six plans, of different scenarios anddifferent possibilities. I was like “OK Angie,
(42:06):
you have to choose. And stick to it.” And that'sit. And so I chose. And from that moment on,
I stopped being scared, I stopped being insecure,I stopped being a control freak. And I see the
world in a brand new way.OF: And now you're just
focused on executing this plan.AW: Execution. So I started to sit down,
(42:27):
and started to write a ‘to do’ list. Doingthat makes me feel that I’m going forward.
Yes, and you have control over it, in some way.
AW (42:35):
I have control over what to pack. OF
I have control over what shoes to keep. OF
So these little things that I put on my to do list, every single tiny one makes me feel good.
OF (42:47):
Yeah. AW
stopped having nightmares, I stopped reading news.
Yes. Well that's definitely healthy. AW
I can break through. And I did.OF: Amazing whatever you did,
it works. Because I can tell.AW: It worked, it worked.
So what is the plan then? AW
(43:08):
My studio in Shanghai stays.China will become my retail hub,
and I will participate in exhibitions in allthe major cities in Europe and North America.
I think it will take a few yearsto build that in Europe and North
America, but I know I can make it.OF: Well, you had such an international
client base.AW: Yes.
(43:29):
A lot of those people have now left. AW
And they are in these cities around the world. AW
in Europe, they were like “We will visit you!”OF: Exactly.
AW (43:38):
And I’m like “Of course”. OF
Yeah. OF
it's a pleasure to see you again. I'm veryhappy that you came into my life through
this project, and let's stay in touch.AW: Likewise. We meet again. China will
open up again.OF: Yeah.
And I will be back!
[Trailer]AB: Whenever
(00:03):
I'm on stage, I look fly. You want tobe my friend after I'm done talking.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
The tone of so many of these episodes of Mosaicof China has been about starting new things,
(00:24):
and the way in which the energy of China keepspropelling us forward. But if you’ve been
listening carefully, you will also know that thesearen’t linear stories of growth and opportunity,
most of us go through cycles where we’re movingforward for a period, and then hitting roadblocks
that make us pause, pivot and reinvent. As we’recoming to the end of the tumultuous year of 2022,
(00:47):
I think a lot of us in China are only tooaware of the highs and lows of these cycles.
My guest today Alizée is a perfect example ofsomeone who speaks to these cycles, not just as
a metaphor for what it’s like to live and workin China, but also in the way they describe the
broader world of sustainability and our impacton the environment. If you’re anything like me,
(01:09):
the moment you hear the word ‘environment’, you’realready hovering over the fast-forward button.
Do I really need to listen to yetanother person lecturing me about
all the things I should be doing, and howhumans have so utterly ruined the planet?
Well do not worry, this isnot one of those podcasts,
and Alizée is not one of those guests. Sostop hovering, and let’s start the show.
(01:29):
[Part 1]OF:
Thank you Alizée, nice to see you.AB: Nice to see you too,
Oscar. Really happy to be here.OF: I purposefully just said your first name,
because I have no idea how to pronounceyour family name. So let's hear it from you.
AB (01:43):
Alizée Buysschaert. OF
I said it in the French way. OF
It's a French name? No.AB: Honestly yes,
because I think the root of my family namecomes from a small town in France called
Buysschaert.OF: OK.
Because you know, I grew up in Belgium where we speak Dutch. So it's
like ‘Buysschaert’ in Dutch.OF: ‘Buysschaert’.
(02:04):
It does sound like I'm swearing at you right now.AB: Yeah!
OF (02:08):
So shall I call you Alizée ‘Buysschaert’ or do you prefer ‘Buysschaert’, or what is it?
AB (02:09):
The first one was actually perfect, great pronunciation.
OF (02:13):
Thank you. AB
‘Buysschaert’. So you are Belgian, right? That’s where you come from.
AB (02:17):
Yes. I grew up in many places - Ghent, Antwerp, Brussels - but all in the Flemish
part of Belgium. Speaking French at homeand then going to Dutch school. So I was
raised with the two languages.OF: And how is your Chinese?
My Chinese, to speak, is not good. I speak like a five-year-old. But I understand
it like a ten-year-old.OF: Congratulations for
making it to a ten-year-old.AB: Thank you, thank you. I
(02:38):
think the trip lately, it helped me quite a bit.OF: Ah, well we're already going into your story.
So before we get too far, I have to ask you thequestion: What is the object that you have brought
that in some way represents your life in China?AB: OK, so it's funny because when I chose the
object, it actually made me think ofsomething else that related to you.
OF (02:57):
Oh, OK. Explain what that is. AB
skull. This, for me, representsa story called ‘Skeleton Woman’.
‘Skeleton Woman’? AB
about death and rebirth, and how we all go throughdeaths and rebirths through our lives. For me,
my life in China has been about birthing a personthat I thought I wanted to be. And I am still
(03:19):
partially that person. But afterwards it came withmany small deaths of the person that I am not. And
I think there's no better place in the world,according to me, to have this experience in such
a short amount of time than in China. So yeah.OF: And I'm trying to think what a skeleton
woman has to do with me. You said it hasa connection to me? What do you mean?
AB (03:38):
The first time I saw you was on stage at Unravel. And it was actually, I think,
about the Mexican holiday of ‘Day of theDead’, where we honour the ones who passed.
OF (03:48):
Wow! OK that's a nice reference. Well, you’ve said something which reminds me of the person who
introduced you from last season, Katherine Wong.AB: Katherine Wong.
So let's listen to this. [Start of Audio Clip]
KW (04:01):
Definitely Alizée. She's a very special person. She's the founder of Zero Waste Shanghai.
OF (04:08):
Zero waste, OK. KW
think, growing everywhere in the world right now.[End of Audio Clip]
AB (04:15):
So I met Katherine at a market, she was selling her candles. And we connected
over her candles. And then, I don'tknow, I just love that person so much.
OF (04:24):
Yeah. AB
We helped each other out a lot.OF: Yeah.
AB (04:29):
Yeah. OF
here in Shanghai. Have you seen her recently?AB: Yeah I have, I have. I've been in China
for almost eight years. Most of that time,like my dear friend Katherine just said,
I ran a company in sustainability called ZeroWaste Shanghai, where I was supporting people
and companies to move towards a circulareconomy. So I did this for six years.
OF (04:51):
Right. The thing that I immediately think about when I hear someone talk about zero waste
and sustainability is… “Boring!” Like, isn't thisthe problem? I don't want to hear it. I don't want
to hear anything about this bloody environmentanymore. I know! We’re killing the world.
AB (05:08):
Yeah. OF
around that immediate knee-jerk reaction?AB: Well… OK so yeah, there are the people
who don't want to hear about it. Believe me, themajority of my work, I've been amongst people like
this. But I think I really saw sustainabilityas something cool. So when I'm on stage and I
talk about it, you can feel the passion. AndI think that's what changes the game. And then
(05:32):
the way that I talk about it, I tried from thevery beginning to stay away from the ‘hippie'
thing. Like, “Don't buy anything. Look liketrash, it's fine.” Like, I'm on the opposite
of this. Whenever I'm on stage, I look fly. Youwant to be my friend after I'm done talking,
that’s my goal. And it worked. I was verypositive. I talk about the problems for maybe
15 minutes out of a one-hour talk. And thenafterwards, I give you all the solutions that
(05:55):
I see. “And this person did this; and this companydid this. And how cool are they? And look at them”
and blah blah blah. And making it inspiring,where people are like “Oh yeah, it's true!”
OF (06:04):
Right. So you said for six years you had this company. So what was the company?
AB (06:08):
It actually started with just me changing my lifestyle. I gave myself one year to reduce 90%
of the waste that I produced every day. Itwas completely personal, I was working in a
corporate company before.OF: Uh-huh.
And I started sharing this with my friends. And then my friends were like “Oh, this is cool.”
And then we created this little group on WeChat.And then they started adding their friends. And
then, I don't know, the group blew up. Andpeople asked me for more and more content,
(06:32):
and tips and things. And I just kept on giving.OF: And you weren't even an expert,
you just were doing this by yourself.AB: I mean, I was doing my master’s
thesis at the time on the circular economy inthe fashion industry. And so I had quite a bit
of knowledge on this topic already. And it'sactually my frustration with the lack of action
around the world that really made me start takingaction within my own life. Because I thought "What
(06:54):
can I do today - right now - to change that?”OF: And so what was that first thing you did?
The first thing I did was very simple. No more plastic bags, no more plastic straws, no more
plastic takeaway cups, and no more take-out food?OF: Actually, that’s quite a big step
straightaway, I would say.AB: I mean, at the time I was
cooking quite a bit. Take-out was more a thingwe did on the weekends. The thing in China
(07:15):
is - I'm going to talk about 2016 China - like,organic food was just not available in China.
OF (07:21):
Right. AB
organic food. Because there were many industries,and industries contaminate the water and the
soils. So today, I would say I would trust it.OF: A-ha.
AB (07:31):
2016, absolutely not. So at the time when I was doing zero waste, people said “I
understand I cannot have plastic, but at thesame time I need my vegetables - or my rice,
or my quinoa, or whatever - to come fromNew Zealand or Australia or Thailand”.
OF (07:44):
Oh I see. AB
they did not trust the filters that today you caninstal on your tap and your shower. They did not
trust to drink the water from the filters.OF: Yes.
AB (07:53):
So they said “For me, the best thing is to buy bottled water for my kid.”
OF (07:57):
Are you saying now that the filters are as safe as having bottled water?
AB (08:01):
I think today there is no big difference indeed between bottled
water and filtered water, because…OF: Here in Shanghai at least.
… Here in Shanghai, yes. Because to be honest, they're both water that has nothing
in it. It has no minerals. So then what Isay to my Chinese audience is “Add flowers
to your water. Drink infused water.”Flowers contain so many great things,
(08:24):
and - depending on the season - your body needsthose things. For example, you would have hibiscus
in your water in the summer, because it's reallygood for your skin. Now in this time, fall, you
have Chinese dates. Otherwise, it's just liquidthat doesn't add anything to your diet either.
OF (08:37):
OK, gosh. I just know what's going to happen in this interview, I am going to get more and more
upset with the things that I'm not doing. I'lltry and keep those comments to myself. Wait so the
idea is then, you have filtered water, you put itinto a jug, and you infuse that with the flowers,
and then from that jug is what you drink?AB: Yes.
Oh. Is it the case, then, that no matter where you are in the world, you should be
(09:02):
doing this? Or is this specifically for China?AB: I think it's anywhere you are in the world,
you need this. To enhance the nutrientsthat you get out of these elements.
Hmm. Do you have evidence about this kind of thing?
AB (09:11):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I am no doctor, but I have read enough. And then for me very frankly,
it's also common sense. Because today, you canfind papers that argue both cases of anything.
OF (09:21):
Yeah. AB
my industry is meat. To have meat or not to havemeat. To be vegan or not to be vegan, right? There
are so many documents and reports on both cases.OF: That's what makes it confusing. That's
what makes everyone think “Oh the wholething's bull****, I’ll just do what I do.”
AB (09:39):
And that’s fine. Like, when I go on stage, I say “Listen, the last thing that I want out of
this conversation is for you to feel guilty. I'mjust here because I'm sharing what I do. And you
take whatever you want out of this.”OF: That’s such a good philosophy,
isn't it? Because if you lookat the entirety of the problem,
that's when you think “Eugh. Well you can't doanything, we might as well give up.” But I think
what you say is correct. If you can focus on theone thing you can change today, then do that.
(10:01):
And then maybe in a week's time - in a year'stime, whatever - then do the next thing, right?
That’s probably how you've done it yourself.AB: No exactly. But also, start with the thing
that you want to change. Don’t change thingsthat you don't want to change. And definitely
don't change purely out of guilt, because thatguilt is only going to last you so long. And
I'd rather you be half-perfect, but at least youcan maybe inspire and convince others around you.
(10:23):
That’s really all that I'm asking for.OF: Mm-hm. Well let's get back to your
story. So you were saying how you - firstof all - quit those plastics. What was the
next stage in your personal progression?AB: So the next stage was changing small
things such as composting. Composting became thisnext thing that I did, which honestly became the
foundation of my business afterwards.OF: Oh.
Because within six months of me changing my lifestyle, I had F&B venues coming up to me
(10:47):
saying “Hey, can you come to my space for freeand do a talk, or an event, or a workshop?” And
I had no idea what to share. So I went to thecommunity on WeChat, and I was like “Hey guys,
would you want a workshop or an event?” Andeveryone was like “A workshop!” And I was
like "Cool, what do you want to learn?” Andeveryone was like “Compost bins for sure.”
OF (11:03):
Is that right? Composting was so popular. AB
was completely non-sexy. But it was something thateveryone wanted to do. I thought I was going to
do one workshop, once. But I started doing themevery weekend. And then the people coming to my
workshops would be managers, or CEOs.OF: Ah.
AB (11:21):
And then of course, when I start talking, I say, “Hi, my name is Alizée, I'm currently
researching the circular economy.” So the peoplewere like “Oh, she knows what she's talking
about."OF: Oh I see. So actually composting became the ‘way in’, for you to talk about
bigger subjects as part of that demonstration.AB: I mean, you give me a room with 25 people
in it, I'm going to influence the roomand make sure that they know more than
just how to put worms into a bin.OF: I mean, I love it. I love how
(11:44):
this became your brand. Youwere the ‘composting queen'
at that point.AB: I was.
OF (11:47):
OK! AB
of our lives. 35-40% of our waste is food waste.OF: Is that right? Even with all the plastics?
AB (11:55):
Yes, it's enormous. So when I was looking at how I could reduce more waste, composting was an
obvious solution to cut it down by a lot.OF: Right.
And so I started looking into how I could do this in an urban setting. So I tried it out,
I had some trial and error. But I put foodin there, and then within month - or a
month and a half - you have soil.OF: Wow, which is basically worm poo.
(12:15):
Basically worm poo. It's a small bin. It's about 40 centimetres long, 25 centimetres high,
something like that. It’s a very small bin. Andit has a tray under it, and you put some wet paper
into it, add your worms, and then add some coconutfibre. And the worms will actually eat the paper
and the coconut fibre brick together with yourfood, and their poop is basically the compost. And
(12:37):
then you top it up with a piece of hemp. Becausein summer, flies would come in. So basically…
OF (12:42):
Yes! That's why I'm thinking, goddammit! I don't want a bloody box
full of worm poo and flies in my house.AB: So the thing is the compost bin does
not smell. Because you will not beputting any dairy or meats in it.
Oh so wait, no dairy, no meat. AB
animal fat, no to anything too fried.OF: Because that's what makes it smelly.
AB (13:02):
That's what makes it smelly. OF
I know, I know. So the biggest question is 'Can we put oil in it?" I'm like “Well, if you're
tossing a salad with olive oil, yes no problem.But if you're gonna have your 四川 [Sìchuān]
hotpot / stir-fried noodles, like no.” There’stoo much spice, too much fat, too much oil.
OF (13:19):
That’s half of China right there! AB
I know. But if you have a very meat- anddairy-heavy diet, then I usually recommend
people to have a ぼかし [bokashi] bin next to it.OF: ぼかし [Bokashi], this sounds
Japanese. What the hell’s that?AB: It is Japanese. So ぼかし [bokashi]
is a fermentation process.OF: Oh.
AB (13:36):
The lid is air-tight. Whereas in a compost bin, absolutely not,
you need air in a compost bin.OF: Otherwise, dead worms.
Otherwise, dead worms. But also because of the process.
OF (13:46):
Yes, yes. AB
and you leave it like this for seven days, thefood will be completely fermented. And then you
can add this afterwards to your compost heap.OF: And it won't smell.
AB (13:56):
Exactly. OF
And then your worms can eat it. OF
But it’s an extra step. OF
is a solution for people who eat meat, right?AB: Listen, I have diehard believers in this
concept, who have two ぼかし [bokashi] bins,five compost bins on their balcony. Like,
they're on it. And their kids love it as well,because for kids they can see the process. That's
also a great thing.OF: Yeah.
That’s why schools are a huge part of our work as well.
OF (14:20):
Yeah, but you're making me light up like a child. Like,
I want to see this too. I want to see these worms!AB: No, everyone! Everyone wants to see them.
Yes! OK, now I can see why it's popular. OF
the company. Because you realises that therewas a revenue stream in selling composting kits.
AB (14:34):
Yeah, the composting kits were my bread and butter for the majority of my
business life, because even when I wasnon giving them to people on weekends,
other services became a spin-off of this one.Honestly, it has been our bread and butter.
OF (14:46):
Can you put bread and butter into the compost bin?
AB (14:49):
You can actually. OF
you can use that metaphor.AB: Yes.
OF (14:54):
Yeah, I can see why. Because how else would you make money? You don't want to get paid,
because you want to spread the word.AB: No, that's not true, I want to get
paid. I want to get paid. No, a thousand percent.I'm from a family of women entrepreneurs. Both
my grandmothers and my mother are entrepreneurs.That's why the circular economy was so amazing for
(15:16):
me, because it was the first time where I couldsee my love for the planet and business actually
come together. And so when I started a company,I didn't have a choice, I had bills to pay. So if
you want to hear me to speak - or if you wantfor me to come to your company - of course,
you'll have to pay. But that’s something that Ifought against very much in the beginning. Because
I had clients just point-blank look me in the eyeand be like “But why don't you do this for free?
(15:38):
Like, this is something good.” And I'm like “OK,so large companies who are ruining the planet,
it’s good for them to get paid a lot of money? Butfor me, who is trying to actually fix the problem,
I should do this for free.?”OF: Yes. Yes, what I said
would have been quite insulting.“You want to do it for free?” No!
AB (15:53):
No. OF
Of course. OF
economy”. And I do kind of know what it means, butit probably would be useful for you to define it.
OK to explain the circular economy I have to explain to you what the ‘linear economy’ is first.
OF (16:07):
Oh. AB
we live in today, which means we extract resourcesfrom the earth, we create a product - let’s say,
my phone - I use it, and when I'm done usingit, I toss it away. Our phones - or any product,
for that matter - are not made to be recycled.Recycling is therefore today a very water-,
energy-, and chemical-intensive process. It'smessy. And so the circular economy is where,
(16:31):
from the very beginning, the designers willthink “OK, this phone belongs to us. So at
the end of the user lifecycle, we need to getit back. And when we get it back, we need to
be efficient. Therefore, we need to design it in away that - when it gets back to us - we’re able to
dismantle it really easily, so that we can keepup to 90-95% of the raw materials.” Therefore,
(16:51):
companies are not reliant any more on thefluctuations of the raw materials markets,
because it's really unsustainable. So whatI really urge my clients is to say like “How
can you become owners of the materials that youput out into the world? And if you own them, it
means you need to get them back as well.” So now,instead of me buying my phone, you pay smaller
fees over a time. But when you're done using it -when it's broken, whatever - I want it back. And
(17:14):
so the concept of waste doesn't exist anymore.OF: The concept of ownership
doesn't exist anymore.AB: I mean, yes, to a certain extent. I mean,
again, in the circular economy there aretwo cycles. There are the technical cycles,
and then there are the biological cycles.So for example, our clothes would be part of
the biological cycles, because they're made frombiological materials. For the biological cycles,
we use the term ‘consumer’, because we‘consume’ them. In the technical cycles,
(17:38):
we use the term ‘user’ because we're ‘using’them, but we're not ‘consuming’ our tech.
Mm-hmm. AB
Philips do this with lighting, other companiesdo this with their washing machines… Your car,
I mean I work with car companies, and there'sa big discussion about ‘What is the future for
cars?’ Like, the loss of ownership. Again, there'sno black and white. I want to own a car one day,
(18:00):
because I love to drive. But if I'm in a city,I don't need to own a car, it’s so much trouble.
Yeah. And so what's stopping us doing that now?
AB (18:10):
Because we don't have the data right now. OF
Yes. The industry of sustainability is very young. And it's a process. It starts from the
design of the products. But the design of theproduct has to work together with the people who
are at the other end of that cycle, who are therecyclers or people who take it apart. So those
two have to talk, which is why it's ‘circular’.OF: And your job in this is like a conduit,
(18:34):
right? You are the conduit?AB: Exactly, yeah. I always
hear about companies, startups… So ifyou need a connection to a network,
I'm your person. I'm just like “Let'ssave money. Let's get to this quick. And
let's have something that actuallyworks. Because I don't want you to
lose money or time. And I make it really sexy.OF: Hello! OK. Let’s then go back to your story.
So you had started off in not using plastics, youthen went into composting. I want to know how far
(19:00):
down this track did you go in your personal life?AB: Ooh, I went very far.
And I was not happy there at all.OF: Oh, really?
Yeah. I was brushing my teeth with powder. I was hardcore vegan. I was not buying anything,
I was only buying secondhand. I wasbarely travelling. Then at some point,
(19:22):
other people were challenging me. And thenI was running a company, and people in the
company were looking up to me. And then when Iwas out in public, you would never see me with
anything that's not sustainable. You would neversee me with any plastic beverage whatever, ever,
ever. Because I was so conscious of…OF: Yeah I mean, that's your brand.
That’s my brand. OF
be a hypocrite if you did anything else.AB: Exactly. When people see me at events,
(19:43):
they ask me where I bought these things…OF: Oh, just to test you.
Yeah, yeah. They're like “So… your kimono right now…?”
OF (19:49):
“Are you sure…” And you had to justify that, yeah.
AB (19:52):
Yeah. OF
said it, that you weren't happy at this peak?AB: No. So I'm gonna admit it. I buy things
because I like the packaging.OF: Like anyone else.
Like anyone else. I love to buy new stuff. And I'm a foodie. So if you and I are somewhere
in 云南 [Yúnnán], and there's some amazing pieceof meat that I have to try, like I'm sorry,
(20:12):
yes I will want to try this. So I came to a pointin my life were all the things I brought me joy,
I took them away from myself. And so that's whenI started allowing myself again to change. To be
like “OK, I don't have to be this extremeperson, because it's not helping me. And
therefore it's not helping anyone else.”Because I think more people relate to me
as being ‘not perfect’. So yeah, so todayI say I'm ‘plant-based’, but I have meat
(20:35):
occasionally. Not every week. But also if I seesomething nice in a store that I have to buy new,
I will buy it new. If I forget my cup, I will -unfortunately, yes - take a take-away wake up. Do
I do this daily? No. I am of course very consciousstill. I still don't buy bottled water. I mean,
of course, straws, plastic bags, small thingslike this. It's just, I'm not extreme any more.
OF (20:56):
Mmm. We were talking about the circular economy. Let me take this conversation circular,
right back to the beginning,when you said you've just come
back from a trip. So what was this recent trip?AB: So just like for many of us, 2020/2021 was
pretty challenging. 2019 was our best year yet.OF: As a company, you mean?
AB (21:17):
As a company. We grew commercially, financially, so much. Like, we were ready
for 2020 being the best year ever.OF: Uh-huh. Guess what,
I know the ending of this story.AB: Mm-hmm. So my company has broken apart,
I rebuilt it, broken apart, rebuilt it. SoI was like “OK this is going to be another
one of those episodes, where I have tobreak the company apart and rebuild it.”
OF (21:36):
And reinvent it to something again. Like “Again,
I have to put all this effort into it again.”AB: Exactly. So it was very very difficult. And
I came to a point where I was really depressed.“What am I doing? What am I doing it for?” Blah
blah blah. We were talking about the skull, like‘death and rebirth’, and that was a really big
death for me. And then I was questioning myself,what is the one thing that I really wanted to do?
(21:59):
And the only thing I came up with, was that Ialways wanted as a kid to be an adventurer. And
you would either find me somewhere in nature, oryou would find me in my van. And people said “Oh
my god, you should do this.” And so we call theproject ‘the KAILU project’. 开路 [Kāilù] means
'open road’ in Chinese.OF: Ah yes.
AB (22:18):
But also ‘blazing a new path.’ And… OF
it can be interpreted in a verydeep way if you want it to, right?
Exactly. And the thing is, I've made many friends in the sustainability realm in China.
But those people don't live in Shanghai.OF: Yeah.
They live across the country. And I always said "If I can one day do something
with them, it would be so cool”. And then theidea came to create a documentary series where
(22:43):
I would be living in my van. I didn't end up goingwith a van. Because I had to build it myself - the
interior, that is - and it would have taken me2-3 months. So I rented out an electric car,
and I drove around China for two months to goand meet people - my friends, basically - who
do really cool things in sustainability whohave built a community around this. So I went,
(23:05):
I travelled, and I sat down with them, and Iinterviewed them. I made short video clips,
and I'm publishing this on YouTube, WeChat,Instagram. Then afterwards, I would love to
take KAILU outside of China.OF: Nice.
And keep doing this, and this be my life's work. To really just go and meet people. Because
this is truly who I am. I am someone who needsto be outside, I love connecting with people, I'm
(23:27):
curious. What makes me happy is to be in a van,waking up, and going to meet people who are so
freaking interesting. Basically your job, almost.OF: I'm thinking, this is like a mix between what
I'm doing and Greta Thunberg. So you'relike a nicer, less selfish version of me.
Yeah, totally. And I can see how this isan extension of what you're already doing,
(23:49):
because you are giving presentations. Which isyou, and you're being very inspiring. But then
if you can get somebody else's story as partof that, it helps to amplify and magnify the
inspiration. I can totally see how it would work.AB: Yeah, exactly. And right now it's done. I'm
back in Shanghai, because I'm stillinterviewing people here as well.
OF (24:07):
Aha. AB
the beginning. I feel like now I'm scouting,testing the thing out. But man, if this could
be my full time gig, that'd be amazing.OF: Yeah. Well, that's the ultimate luxury,
if you could do that - which not just speaks toyour own passion, but also speaks to saving the
world, and at the same time is something which issustainable from a financial perspective - then
that’s it, baby.AB: That’s it.
(24:27):
I wish you all the best. What you are doing - what you have done - is to try and
make this topic - which is annoying andboring - you’ve tried to make it sexy and
inspiring. Being in your company, I can feelit. Thank you Alizée, we’ll move on to Part 2.
[Part 2]OF: Alright Alizée.
AB (24:44):
Yes. OF
the 10 questions. So I ask everyguest these same 10 questions.
So we will start now. Question 1, which thisseason is brought to us by Shanghai Daily:
What is your favourite China-related fact?AB: There was only one female empress who
ruled in China, 武則天 [Wǔ Zétiān].And during her reign, China was
(25:07):
pretty prosperous and stable. And I love that.OF: Female rulers. You know what, you're the third
person to say that as their favourite China fact.AB: Shut up.
OF (25:16):
Yeah. AB
In Season 01 it was the comedian from Inner Mongolia, Maple Zuo. And in Season 02
it was the heavy metal bar owner CassandraChen. So you are in good company. She is
her own empress right now. The composite empress.AB: I am.
Question 02, which is brought to us by Rosetta Stone:
(25:38):
Do you have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?AB: Oh yes. I mean, I use 可以 [kěyǐ] even in
Belgium. But no, my friend Myles in 甘肃[Gānsù] taught me 不卑不亢 [bùbēibùkàng].
不卑不亢 [bùbēibùkàng]. AB
but also not too humble’. It's the right balancebetween being a proud person, but not arrogant.
(25:59):
I like it. And does this encapsulate what you do as a person? Or who you are?
AB (26:04):
I don't think I would manifest my pride out in public, but it's definitely sometimes in my head.
OF (26:09):
Yeah. AB
it's just a good reminder to be like “You're nobetter than anyone else. No one else is better
than you. Just do what you have to do.”OF: Yeah. What is your favourite
destination within China?AB: 大理 [Dàlǐ] in 云南 [Yúnnán].
大理 [Dàlǐ]. AB
settle somewhere, I'll be going to 大理 [Dàlǐ]. It'sthe perfect place of creativity, entrepreneurship,
(26:30):
nature and the luxuries of Shanghai.OF: Oh it has luxuries of Shanghai?
AB (26:35):
Uh-huh. Coffee shops, bakeries, cute stores, nice little restaurants.
OF (26:39):
Yeah. AB
Shanghai, in between a lake and the mountains.OF: Mmm. Very nice. Zhang Yuan - he is a curator
of a museum, he does performance art - andhe was saying that he liked 大理 [Dàlǐ] last
season because the people think differently, hewas saying. The people are a bit more artistic,
and the clouds are always there. So it hasthis kind of mystery about it, 大理 [Dàlǐ].
AB (26:59):
Absolutely agree. Everyone there is an artist. The creativity is like a skyrocket. And they're
making money, and they're living an amazing life.OF: Nice. Next question. If you left China,
what would you miss the most?AB: I would miss my life as it is right now,
the most. With the friends that I have, thelifestyle that I have, the person that I am.
(27:23):
I've had the experience when I'm outside ofChina that I lose a connection with myself. It's
difficult to keep that alive, especially when I'min Belgium. When I'm in Dubai or Thailand, I get
it. The connection is still there. But when I'min Belgium, it's difficult to grasp that person.
OF (27:41):
I know exactly what you mean. You kind of feel like you regress, don't you?
AB (27:45):
Exactly. That's exactly how I feel. OF
that still surprises you about life in China?AB: Yesterday, I saw a child pooping in the
middle of a pedestrian street. Pooping.Like, I’d seen peeing before. But
pooping. It… it really disturbed me.OF: That's rare these days, right?
It’s quite rare. And again, it's the poo thing. I’d never seen pooping before.
OF (28:10):
I wonder if it actually was a tourist? AB
right there in the middle.OF: Oh. There you go. Oh wow. Yep,
that would be a surprise. Next question, whichcomes from SmartShanghai: Where is your favourite
place to go out, to eat or drink or hang out?AB: My favourite place to drink and hang out is
(28:31):
The Room. It's a small coffee shop on 泰安 [Tài’ān]Road. Very cute, very nice, they have the most
amazing lemon scones. Yeah, I'm not a partyanimal. So I don't drink as much. And otherwise
food-wise, anywhere with 云南 [Yúnnán] food, 东北[Dōngběi] food. I don't have a specific place,
to be honest. I love to try new things.OF: Yeah. What is the best or
(28:54):
worst purchase you have made in China?AB: OK. So the best purchase is for sure one
of my ceramics. I bought so much ceramic.OF: Is there one particular one?
AB (29:04):
Yes, there is one plate that I bought in 景德镇 [Jǐngdézhèn], which is black and has some gold on
it. It’s that plate for sure. 景德镇 [Jǐngdézhèn]is famous for ceramics, it's where the royal
kilns used to be, thousands of years ago. It'sthe place where you go for the best porcelain,
the best ceramics in China. I mean, thecity is not beautiful. They're working on
(29:25):
it. But there are so many artists studiosthat are just in these old little houses.
It's a goldmine.OF: Thank you. Now the next
question, what is your favourite WeChat sticker?AB: The one where Adele is laughing so hard,
and she falls on her face on thiscouch. It's just my favourite.
OF (29:46):
That’s a good one, I've never seen that one. AB
Where have I been? AB
watching it makes me happy.OF: Thank you.
AB (29:55):
You’re welcome. OF
What is your go-to song to sing at KTV?AB: ‘I Want It That Way’ by the Backstreet Boys.
OF (30:02):
Ah! AB
CD that my dad burned for me.OF: Oh nice.
AB (30:08):
Yeah. I don't know. I just feel so much love and joy. And it's romantic. And it’s… Ach. It’s
so cheesy, I love it. It’s like “You are myfire”. Its so good, you may catch me on my
scooter singing this full-on.OF: Oh god.
Honestly, I sing on my scooter. I'm just like “Na na na!” Cos I don’t care.
OF (30:29):
Who needs KTV, right? AB
And finally, who or what is your best source of inspiration in China?
AB (30:37):
I want to say the people that are interviewed. Because I have a crush on a different person every
couple of months. So right now I'm really reallyinspired by my friend Rio from 大理 [Dàlǐ], who I
interviewed recently. She is just a creative, anentrepreneur, someone who lives outside in nature.
And I'm like “You are my vision of success”.OF: Well on that note - especially looking at your
(31:04):
object still on this desk, which is the birth,and the death, the rebirth - maybe it's time for
a rebirth, I'll see you in 大理 [Dàlǐ] at one point.AB: Let’s do it.
OF (31:12):
Thank you so much, Alizée. AB
such a good time with you today, it was amazing.OF: Oh yeah, we could still keep on talking. But
I have to let you go. Before I do, the last thingI will ask before you leave is, out of everyone
you know in China, who do you recommend that Iinterview in the next season of Mosaic of China?
AB (31:33):
Definitely I would recommend Shutong, 刘疏桐 [Liú Shūtóng]. He is an entrepreneur - I
think he's now based in 南京 [Nánjīng] - whoturns cooking oil into biogas/biodiesel.
OF (31:43):
Oh. AB
this in collaboration with the 南京 [Nánjīng]government and large companies. He is very
inspirational to me, in our industry.OF: That sounds great. And if there was
one question that you wouldask him, what would you ask?
AB (31:58):
I would ask him what is something that he does daily that contributes to the way he works?
OF (32:05):
I like it. AB
Thank you so much Alizée. AB
[Outro]OF: Well, the theme of death and
rebirth has continued for Alizée, who is now basedback in Belgium. As you heard in the episode,
in the past she had always felt strange goingback to her home country when she visited from
China. But I’m happy to report that she hasn’tlost touch with her true identity, and she’s
(32:28):
enjoying a new role combining her twin passions ofthe environment and content creation in Antwerp.
We’re sorry to see you leave Alizée, but at thesame time looking forward to see what you do next.
Speaking about the theme of birth and death,Alizée mentioned the connection to my appearance
at the Unravel storytelling series. Youcan type in the search terms ‘Oscology’
(32:52):
and ‘Remember Me’ and the YouTube video of thatstory should pop up. Alizée’s channel ‘KAILU,
The Open Road’ is also there. And while you’reonline, also check out all the graphics that
go together with today’s episode, eitheron mosaicofchina.com or on social media.
(33:12):
That’s where you’ll also find information on howto subscribe to the PREMIUM version of the show,
where there are extended versionsof all Mosaic of China interviews.
Alizée’s is no exception, here are a fewclips from today’s full-length conversation:
[Clip 1]AB: I came in right before
they closed the borders.OF: Ooooh.
AB (33:29):
Like, 48 hours. [Clip 2]
OF (33:31):
When you talk about kombucha, come on, this is like ‘hipster central’ now.
[Clip 3]AB: I'm sorry, I'm trying to survive here.
Please go give your talk somewhere else.[Clip 4]
AB (33:38):
When we touch dirt, there's a happiness. [Clip 5]
“Time to clean up the beach.” And I'm like “What? No, we’re on a holiday!” He was like “We're
going to clean up the beach.”[Clip 6]
If there's one thing I would say
from everything else.”[Clip 7]
OF (33:50):
Everyone in China, Scooby-Doo. AB
[Clip 8]AB:
Smaller, and cooler, and cuter, and fantastic.[Clip 9]
AB (33:58):
Can I touch the worms? [Clip 10]
She warned me “You're going to cry this evening.” And I cried. And it was amazing.
[Clip 11]AB: If you go vegan and you are sick as a dog,
go back to eating meat.[Clip 12]
OF (34:10):
It’s so different to life in China, it would be like ‘the antidote to China’ at that point.
AB (34:15):
Yes, 100%. [End of Audio Clips]
OF (34:18):
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artwork by Denny Newell. Earlier on, we heard the
voice of Katherine Wong from Season 02 Episode 04recommending Alizée to the show. After the music
you’ll hear a short catch-up with Katherine,and then another catch-up with the person who
referred Katherine, that’s Angie Wu from Season 01Episode 18. It’s great to have these three people
(34:41):
connected through the Mosaic, their stories areso distinct yet feature those themes of birth and
death - invention and re-invention - that Alizéedescribed so well. Speaking of which, we’re about
to say goodbye to another year, so I’ll see youhere next week for the final episode of 2022.
[Catch-Up Interview 1]OF: Katherine,
(35:10):
hello.KW: Hello Oscar!
When I first met you, you were in Shanghai. Then you travelled back to Peru,
where your parents live. And that was whenthe world shut down the first time around.
And you were stuck in Peru at the time.KW: Yes. It was this big uncertainty,
not knowing when I will be able to come back.I was always trying to get this humanitarian
(35:34):
flight all the time.OF: Yeah.
KW (35:36):
After three or four attempts, I managed to get a humanitarian flight to go to Germany,
because that's where my husband is from. And inGermany, I experienced another lockdown again.
OF (35:46):
Oh god. KW
2020 when I was able to finally come back home.OF: So actually, you were locked down in three
different continents.KW: Yes, that's true.
So you were in Peru, and that was with your mother and father,
and your son.KW: Yes.
And then in Germany, you were with who? KW
(36:08):
mostly German.OF: Oh.
KW (36:09):
And I don’t. OF
Around 3-4 months. OF
he was in Shanghai the whole time.KW: Trying to get us back.
OF (36:19):
So out of the three - Peru, and then Germany, and then here in Shanghai quite recently - what
would you say was the hardest one?KW: That's not a tricky question,
I would say this one definitely.OF: The one in Shanghai.
KW (36:33):
Yeah. I mean, the fact that you live in fear of not being able to have enough
food, that was really tough.OF: Yeah. Well, thankfully,
it's in the past for us right now. Maybe it'sa good chance for us to pivot this conversation
to what you do. So for people who haven't heardyour original episode, you are a healer, right?
(36:54):
Yes. OF
Peruvian techniques, and you also sell productsas well. Why don't you give us an update on your
business then, since you got back to China.KW: Yes. So I planned to take things slowly,
but the universe don't want that to happen to me.I started to have people coming to me - they need
help, they want sessions - and I couldn't say no.OF: Yeah.
(37:16):
So it's been the busiest of all my time as a practitioner.
OF (37:22):
Really? KW
And what do you think was the reason? KW
realisation that you need to feel good in yourmind. You need to be balanced, so you are able
to make the right and the best decisions inyour life. To learn and realise about energy,
or about your soul, or spiritual growth.OF: Mmm. And you were saying, even back in
(37:47):
our interview, that you were getting more andmore Chinese customers. Is that what happened?
KW (37:52):
Yes. OF
do you also use crystals now? I remember, thatwas your object from our original interview.
Yes. Every time, in all my sessions. It works to awaken our heart,
for us to remember who we are, why we're hereon earth, what are our skills in this lifetime,
or our purpose. I think it's something veryeasy to find, and very easy to use as well.
OF (38:15):
I mean, I'm still on the side of “Well… Does it work, does it not? I'm not entirely sure." But
I can certainly see how people who believe in it,they do definitely feel better afterwards. So I
should basically do more myself, shouldn't I?KW: Yes.
You did give me, very kindly, one of your flower-scented candles. And I must say, it did
(38:38):
feel very nice when I used it. So I'm still openminded, let’s put it that way. Thank you again,
I want to say thank you also to Angie, who firstintroduced you to Season 02. You're very close
friends, are you still in touch with her?KW: Yes. Still. Always.
Yeah. And the person who you referred to for Season 03, our good friend Alizée.
KW (39:00):
Yes. It's sad that she left, but I guess that's the life here that we
live now in China, right? In Shanghai.OF: Yes. You've been here … what is it,
eighteen years now? Nineteen?KW: Yes, eighteen years.
OF (39:11):
Yeah. So what are your plans for the future? KW
Oh! KW
But we will move. We will move.OF: And do you know where?
KW (39:20):
Most likely Germany. OF
a little bit easier for you toreturn to Peru as well. You're
already halfway there, if you're in Germany.KW: Yes. It's not gonna be 24-hour flight.
OF (39:30):
Well, that's sad news I'm sure for the people who know you here in Shanghai. But I feel quite
lucky that I have you in this window before youleave. So at least we can meet up in person.
KW (39:41):
Yes. OF
I know. Yes. OF
that we will try to keep in touch every year,because who knows where you'll be next time.
Yes. OF
of this Mosaic, so thank you again Katherine.KW: I'm grateful for you. Thank you Oscar.
[Catch-Up Interview 2]OF: Hello Angie.
AW (39:58):
Hello Oscar. OF
you are a jewellery designer.AW: Yes.
OF (40:04):
And you also make it yourself. AW
And then you sell it. You are the A-Z of jewellery in Shanghai.
AW (40:09):
Yes. That's why I'm so tired. OF
when we recorded your first catch-up - I was verysurprised by your energy. You were so much more
relaxed, just lighter than you were on the firsttime that we talked. And then now it's even more
the case. So what has happened?AW: Oh, when was the last time
(40:30):
we met. Which year?OF: I think the first
interview was three years ago.AW: Yeah, that I know.
OF (40:33):
And then the catch up was about 18 months ago. AW
hasn’t changed. So yes, when I first see you -the first 5-10 minutes - I’m just like a speedy
bunny. I’m super fast, and super energetic.What really changed is that I am resolved,
inspired and hopeful for the next chapter ofmy life. I'm going to be 47 in two weeks. And
(41:00):
I just feel like it's gonna be the best age ofmy life. And for many many years, I lost that.
Yes. AW
became a working machine. I work Monday to Sunday,I have this sense of duty, and I want to be worth
my clients’ trust. Shanghai, it's energetic, itsucks you in, and you are in the washing machine.
(41:26):
Exactly. AW
Yeah. AW
But then when the lockdown happened this year, 70%of my expat customers are leaving China for good.
This year is the first year that all the smallbusinesses in Shanghai were hit like a tsunami.
Yeah. AW
(41:46):
are still here since 2014, are the ones who put ineverything: all their savings, all the effort, all
the time. Because we are devoted to this business.And this year, I thought I wouldn't survive. So
I made six plans, of different scenarios anddifferent possibilities. I was like “OK Angie,
(42:06):
you have to choose. And stick to it.” And that'sit. And so I chose. And from that moment on,
I stopped being scared, I stopped being insecure,I stopped being a control freak. And I see the
world in a brand new way.OF: And now you're just
focused on executing this plan.AW: Execution. So I started to sit down,
(42:27):
and started to write a ‘to do’ list. Doingthat makes me feel that I’m going forward.
Yes, and you have control over it, in some way.
AW (42:35):
I have control over what to pack. OF
I have control over what shoes to keep. OF
So these little things that I put on my to do list, every single tiny one makes me feel good.
OF (42:47):
Yeah. AW
stopped having nightmares, I stopped reading news.
Yes. Well that's definitely healthy. AW
I can break through. And I did.OF: Amazing whatever you did,
it works. Because I can tell.AW: It worked, it worked.
So what is the plan then? AW
(43:08):
My studio in Shanghai stays.China will become my retail hub,
and I will participate in exhibitions in allthe major cities in Europe and North America.
I think it will take a few yearsto build that in Europe and North
America, but I know I can make it.OF: Well, you had such an international
client base.AW: Yes.
(43:29):
A lot of those people have now left. AW
And they are in these cities around the world. AW
in Europe, they were like “We will visit you!”OF: Exactly.
AW (43:38):
And I’m like “Of course”. OF
Yeah. OF
it's a pleasure to see you again. I'm veryhappy that you came into my life through
this project, and let's stay in touch.AW: Likewise. We meet again. China will
open up again.OF: Yeah.
And I will be back!
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