April 5, 2021 • 39 mins
There is a lot being said around the world these days about racism and discrimination. Quite rightly. But pointing fingers and throwing accusations often achieves nothing. The thing that changes attitudes, at a human level, is both fundamentally simple, and embarrassingly difficult. It's casual association. Being casually associated with people from different backgrounds is what leads to a genuine understanding of our commonalities, and a positive exploration of our differences. My conversation with the South African actress, writer, theatre producer, and community organiser Noxolo Bhengu beautifully illustrates the awkward dance that takes place when opportunities for casual association are more scarce. The context of our conversation is Noxolo's work in promoting visibility of the Afro-diaspora in China. But the dialogue that follows is one that should resonate with you, no matter who or where you are. Purposeful visibility leads to casual association leads to meaningful relationships. The episode also includes a catch-up interview with Yael Farjun from Season 01 Episode 12. (https://mosaicofchina.com/season-01-episode-12-yael-farjun). Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 02:18 - Part 1 22:35 - Part 2 29:13 - Outro 31:15 - Catch-Up Interview Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at https://mosaicofchina.com/season-02-episode-14-noxolo-bhengu. Join the community on Instagram (https://instagram.com/oscology), LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/mosaicofchina), Facebook (https://facebook.com/mosaicofchina) or WeChat (https://mosaicofchina.com/wechat).
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Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
[Trailer]NB: A kid asked me “Why are you black?”
I've never been asked that before.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
This episode is very special to me. In 1999-2001,I worked as an English teacher in rural Japan.
(00:29):
I was this 21-year old white boy from North-WestLondon in a town of about 12,000 people somewhere
in between Kobe and Hiroshima. And in that town,in that context, I was exotic. And over the course
of those 2 years, I got to know a very specificfeeling. And I don’t know if this feeling even has
a name. It was the feeling you get when you’rebeing recruited by someone to be their friend.
(00:54):
Now that wasn’t racism, that wasn’tdiscrimination. But what is it when
you’re being made to feel like you’re just thiscolourful new butterfly in someone’s collection.
It’s only now, over two decades later,that I’m starting to figure this out.
I grew up in a multicultural environment inLondon, where I just had friends who were people
of colour, by default. If someone had asked methen whether I had a diverse group of friends,
(01:19):
it would be just like that joke about one fishsaying “The water’s warm today’, and the other
one replying ‘What’s water?’ It’s just thereall around you, and you don’t question it.
But now I find myself in China, and Irealise that my friends aren’t, by default,
as diverse as before. And so what is thesolution to this, without becoming one of
(01:41):
those well-meaning individuals I learnt to detestin the Japanese countryside, twenty years ago?
I’m so grateful to today’s guest, not justfor what she is doing to address this type
of exposure deficit in China, but for doing itwith a humour that is so infectious. You’ll hear
it right from the start, and our conversationshould resonate with you, no matter who you are
(02:05):
or where in the world you’re listening. Also, mycatch-up interview with Yael Farjun from Season 01
Episode 12 at the end of today's show is alsovery special, so stick around until the end.
[Part 1]OF:
Thank you for coming, Noxy.NB: Absolutely. I am
happy I am here, let’s do this.OF: I want to say your name properly,
(02:26):
your name is Noxolo, right?NB: Oh, you're getting there.
You've been practising athome, how many times a day?
OF (02:32):
Oh, let me tell you, it's a 35-minute walk from my home to this studio. And
I was saying “Noxolo, Noxolo” all the way.NB: See, guys, be like Oscar. Do what Oscar does.
So it's ‘Noxolo’. I do prefer being called‘Noxolo’ because that's my name. And it just has
such a beautiful meaning, it means ‘Mother ofPeace’. So I want to get people into the habit of,
(02:54):
you know, trying out these complicated names,instead of being scared by these names.
Let's rather learn, like how you've been doing,and I appreciate that. But if you can’t say
‘Noxolo’, ‘Noxy’ is OK.OF: ‘Noxy'.
NB (03:06):
Yeah. OF
let's see, because I have to go into kind of likea meditative state to actually say it sometimes.
Align your chakra. OF:
OK, but thank you for giving me the way outby saying ‘Noxy’. And, like, people in China
would call you ‘Noxy’, or..?NB: Yeah, they call me Noxy.
OF (03:21):
Well, before we get into that, let us talk about the object which represents
your life in China. So what did you bring?NB: I brought… It's a photograph from the
first original play that I put on in Shanghai.And the image, for me, symbolises the journey,
and why I have to keep going in the journey. Andthe person who gave me this image as a gift is a
(03:47):
friend who I met on that day. It's a snap froma moment in the play. I don't remember exactly
which part of the play this was in. But we werejust led by the energy of the moment, yeah.
Nice. And so you brought a photo of it, why didn't you bring the actual thing itself?
NB (04:06):
I couldn't bring it because I have to run around the city today. And I
don't want to carry this image the whole time.OF: I'm happy you actually brought it as a photo
because it really does symbolise how you live yourlife, which is rushing from one thing to the next,
right? You are hustling.NB: That's interesting.
OF (04:27):
Whenever I've encountered you - in person, or when we're messaging
each other on text - you're always like “OK,I've got this on. I can't do this now. I've
got this next. Like, you are on the move.NB: That's true. And I've called myself
out recently.OF: Oh right?
NB (04:42):
Recently was two days ago. Taking 30 minutes, just to go and clear your mind and do something
nice for yourself is soimportant. It's so healthy.
So you are correct. I am always, like, on thego. I don't like it, I just… Can't I just…
Can somebody just make me a housewife?OF: Oh my word. That’s so funny. Well,
(05:06):
yes, I agree with the need to walk around.And, you know, I wouldn't have been able to
practice ‘ Noxolo’ all morning if I was…NB: There you go! If you’re cooped
up in the studio.OF: Well, you want
someone who is hard to compartmentalise.So, how would I introduce you? What is
your title? Like, how do you introduce yourself?NB: It depends where I am and who I'm speaking to.
(05:29):
I don’t generally introduce myself asanything else but ‘Noxolo’, right? It's like,
you know in China when you meet somebody for thefirst time - especially if it's like an event,
and - the go-to is “Where are you from?” IfI've had a conversation for even 15 minutes,
and you haven't brought up “Where are you from?”,I’m like “This is an amazing conversation”.
OF (05:50):
Oh, that's so funny. NB
so many other things to talk about in the room.Maybe there's food in the room, maybe “Oh, this
is an interesting book launch”. You know, there'sa reason why we’re in that room for the event. So
there's other things to speak about. So I juststep into a room, “Hi, I'm Noxolo’” you know,
and “Who are you?” And then we speak about otherthings. And if it's a space where I want to work
(06:13):
with somebody, collaborate with somebody, then Iwould speak on that. I would introduce myself as
a writer, if that's what I would like to be knownfor in that space. Or a dancer, if that's what I
would like to be known for in that space, youknow. Or a budding entrepreneur, if that's what
I want to be known for in that space. So… depends.OF: Yeah. And you've touched upon a lot of what I
(06:36):
wanted to talk to you about. Because,you know, it's about your identity.
You know, you are sort of a walking ambassador foryour identity. That's the issue, isn't it? Whether
you like it or not, people are gonna look at you.And when they hear your name, I mean, that's going
to be another thing, like “What is that name?Where do you come from?” Like, it is something
which even I approached this conversation with…An element of ‘ickiness’, because… You know,
(07:01):
let me just be honest with you. So in my firstseason, I had some feedback where it was like
“You had 30 episodes, and not one blackperson? Like, that’s bad representation”.
So when you and I first met, it was througha recommendation from a friend of ours, Clem.
NB (07:14):
Yeah. OF
be honest with you, like “Right, I've got a gap inthe series, I would like to fill that with someone
who represents Africa”. And that is ‘icky’,because it's about representation but at the same
time there's an element of tokenism, where I'msearching for someone who can represent Africa.
Yeah. OF
to me. So you embody that. And I think I can comefrom that from a European perspective, with all
(07:38):
that historical baggage. But I wonder, like, whatis that experience from your side here in China?
When you approached me, I appreciated your honesty. And that's the only reason I was so
open to you as a person and what you do, becauseif you're not exposed to people, how do you then
know those kinds of people? It's all aboutassociation, it's all about relationships.
(08:03):
I'm not sure if I am an ambassador, likean African ambassador, you know? Because
I look at all these different countries ofAfrica, and these cultures that I don't know of,
places that I'm yet to go to myself, andjust really learn what this country is about,
who these people are about. I’m like, howcan I then represent that, when I don't know
(08:27):
anything about that? You know?OF: And yet, you probably are
called upon to do it.NB: There we go.
OF (08:33):
It’s not about really internally, it's about what the external pressure is putting onto you.
NB (08:37):
And therefore because of that… And it's actually not a bad pressure.
Because it's something that I should be immersingmyself in, should be understanding better. Like,
even in school in history. I did history. AndI love history. European history, I know it.
Industrial Revolution, ask me anything,I’ll tell you. What? Napoleon Bonaparte,
(09:02):
the Cold War, anything, anything. African history,even South African history, was just touched on.
It's only when I was older, it was like “No, man.I don't know anything about my own continent".
OF (09:12):
Yeah. NB
country. Once upon a time, before Oscar came.OF: Oh, no, no! Don’t blame it on me.
But I mean, absolutely, I embody that.And I think part of where I come from
is with that European background. And that's whyit's fascinating to talk to you in the context
(09:33):
of China, which is distant from there. And Imean, I'm the same as you. Like, I never had
to question my identity before I came to Asia forthe first time, where suddenly I had to represent
white people, Europeans. They had no idea thedifference between an English person, a Polish
person, or you name it. A Jew or a Christian,it’s all the same, it’s all just ‘The West’.
NB (09:50):
Homogenous society. You learn so much. OF
“Well who am I?” when you're actually in thatenvironment, right? I mean, let's talk about
that. Let's talk about where you come from.So you said that your name means, what was it?
‘Mother of Peace’. OF
It’s a Zulu name. But it's also a Xhosa name. But we were one thing before the tribes separated?
OF (10:11):
Oh, right. NB
up in a city called Durban.OF: Right.
NB (10:17):
Yes. OF
would identify as more Zulu, or more Xhosa?NB: Ah, no you got the click. I'm definitely
Zulu. You know, I grew up in a Zulu province and
my surname is Zulu, my father’s Zulu, yeah.OF: Right. And so what languages would you
have spoken at home?NB: Zulu, just Zulu.
OF (10:35):
And English? NB
for school. But with my mother, we speak Zulu.OF: And so you said that you had this affinity
with European history. Like,what was that? Did you have
some kind of affiliation with Europe, or..?NB: No, it was just what I was been taught.
To the point where, when I could travel on myown, I wanted to go to Europe. Now I’m like “No,
(11:00):
I want to go and explore Africa. I want to goand eat African food that I've never smelt.
That I don't even know how to pronounce.That I don't even know exists”. So it was
just what I was exposed to, what I was being fed.OF: And that's a function of the syllabus itself
still being like from… I just clicked. Oh my god.And that's a function of the syllabus still, sort
(11:21):
of, having the remnants of European influence?NB: Yeah. Not even just the syllabus. Our school
song was quite colonial, you know. And notknowing what I was singing, I was just like,
belting it out.OF: Yes.
NB (11:35):
You know, so the fact that it wasn't apparent to me that it was so problematic, speaking about
these, essentially, invaders who came to Africa,and we're praising them for their heroic deeds.
OF (11:51):
Yes. NB
And I wonder, like, is this something which had you stayed in South Africa,
you would have been so aware of. Or is it comingto a place like China, where you do have the blank
space to think about “Oh, yeah. What was thatabout?” Rather than just, sort of, existing in it?
NB (12:09):
Yeah. I think if I'd stayed in South Africa, I’d be the way that I am right now,
because of the people that I surround myself with.However, when you are outside of the country…
I don't know, my antennas are… What's the word?OF: Yeah, ‘flicking’?
‘Flicking’ there we go. You know, I'm so alert. I'm in a constant state of ‘otherness’.
OF (12:31):
Yeah. NB
So there's things to unpack, there’s things tolearn, by just constantly being a foreigner.
Yeah, yeah. NB
Being in the room. NB
“Why are you black?” And I was like…OF: It's a good question.
NB (12:54):
I've never been asked that before. And I mean, I'm not angry at this kid.
I was like “Oh, so such questions exist?” Youknow? So for me, this was a teaching moment, more
than a moment to reprimand this eight-year-old whogenuinely doesn't know why there are black people.
OF (13:17):
Absolutely. NB
knew why there are white people. But I'm justgonna address what he’s asking right now. So
I treated that moment with such kindness.OF: Yeah. But this is what I mean. Like,
when you are here, and confronted with such aquestion… Like, you would never be confronted
with that question anywhere else.NB: No.
And so that's why I think it is an interesting experience to actually have to then think, “Yeah,
(13:40):
why am I black?” Like, itactually is a good question.
NB (13:43):
When you say it's a good question, can you tell me like, what do you mean by that?
OF (13:48):
Well, because then you say “Well, it's about pigment. It's about
my genes. It's about the historical evolutionof how people travelled around the world,
and how people somehow changed through breedingand through, you know, going through different
changes because of their environments. And,boom, you're already thinking about things
that in the normal course of your life in SouthAfrica, you would never have to think about that.
(14:11):
And that's just a silly example, of course…NB: No, it's not. It's not a silly example.
It's an example that I would not think about. Butnow I'm like “Hmm, interesting”. Because for me,
I'm black because I am.OF: Yeah.
NB (14:22):
Full stop. OF
Yeah, it is. Because actually, if you go down theline that I was going down, you almost have to
justify your blackness? Like, no!NB: Exactly, yeah.
OF (14:32):
So yeah, I can see why your answer would have been the right one at that time.
So tell me about growing up in Durban. That'swhere you said you were from, right? Was that
a big city, were you in one of the suburbs?NB: I had a beautiful childhood. I'm sure
there were things that I didn't like aboutmy childhood, but I can’t even remember them.
The place that I spent most of my time ingrowing up, Umlazi, it was very community
(14:54):
based. Everybody supported each other. If somebodypassed away, you best believe everybody on that
street is coming through to help, with takingcare of the family, whatever is needed. So even
if you didn't have much, you know, if you didn'thave enough food, you didn't have to worry about
sleeping on an empty stomach. You could justgo to the neighbour and they would understand.
(15:15):
Right. NB
supportive community, full of ‘Ubuntu’…OF: What’s ‘Ubuntu’?
NB (15:22):
‘Ubuntu’ essentially means “I am because you are”. So it's knowing that nobody exists
exclusively, we need each other to keep going,to grow. It's very simple. If you're walking
down the street, you greet that person. And thisis something that I've been struggling with in
(15:42):
China. People not greeting each other, even inthe office space. If you walk into an office,
I've been in environments where people evendon't say “Good morning”. To the point where
I said “Did we sleep in the same house?” No, I’vesaid that before. Because it was so alarming. But
Africans, regardless of what race you are,people greet. And I'm like “They get it.”
OF (16:02):
Right. NB
you greet everybody at the bus stop.OF: Right.
NB (16:07):
And if you don't create an elderly person, that is considered the highest form of disrespect,
not greeting an elderly. So ‘Ubuntu’for me is something that I'm glad
that I carry with me, in all areas of my life.OF: Yeah. That’s beautiful. So with that
background, how did you end up in China?NB: I ended up in China as a way of saving
(16:30):
up money to move to New York. So for me, the dream- as an actress, as a writer, as a director - was
always New York. And here I am, still in Shanghai.OF: And so how long have you been in China so far?
I think it's five, six years now. Yeah. OF
to move on to New York?NB: New York will happen,
(16:51):
but it's no longer like THE destination, yeah.OF: And I'm looking at your
photo. What was your life then?NB: My life revolved around pushing my Theatre
Company, LWuD Theatre, which means ‘Love What UDo’. I was putting on plays, I wrote a children's
play that was performed in 南京 [Nánjīng]. So Iwas in that world. My entire focus was how to
(17:15):
keep the theatre company moving, how to create. Somy days revolved around writing. You know, yeah.
OF (17:22):
So in that world - which is 2019, we're talking about - you were principally a writer.
NB (17:28):
Yes. OF
in 2020 didn't quite work out the same, did they?NB: No. 100% not. It was just like survival mode.
And it's so funny, because December, I was onBali, living my best life. It was like “OK, you
know, I've got these lucrative contracts that I'vegotten myself into, which are going to set me for
(17:50):
six months of the year, which is fabulous, thatI can just focus on writing”. Then life happened.
OF (17:55):
Yeah. NB
you should have saved better”. Then I realisedthat, OK, there has been a big gap in my finances.
I know nothing. This is my approach in life, Iknow nothing about business. I'm still learning
how to build a legacy and being financially smart.I don't come from money, because historically
(18:17):
people who look like me in my country weren'tsupposed to have generational wealth. So I need
to be part of the group of people who break that.OF: And even having money,
it's not the same as having wealth, right?NB: Exactly. Exactly. It's not the same. I
can't even blame my family for not teaching mehow to manage money. Because nobody taught them
(18:38):
that. It was all about survival. You know, so‘Ndawo Afrika’, which is ‘Africa, the place’
is what I created, which revolves aroundcurating different experiences from the
Afro-diaspora. So we have film, we havecultural events, we have markets. It's so new.
That's why sometimes I stop myself from beinghard on myself. Like “You just started. Easy
(19:02):
tiger. Give it time, you know, give it time.You've been doing all that you can do, just
to solidify the foundation. Now you will build.”OF: And this reminds me of what you said earlier
about how you want to actually know moreabout the variety of countries around Africa.
NB (19:17):
Yes. OF
which you're doing through this process?NB: Trying to do. So at this point,
I'm doing what I can do. For example, with thefilms, right? The goal is to screen films or
documentaries from the Afro-diaspora.But the filmmakers who I’ve managed to
get into contact with are mostly SouthAfrican. And I'm like “No, but I want somebody
(19:39):
from Senegal, I want somebody fromMorocco. I want the Afro-diaspora”.
OF (19:43):
You gotta start somewhere, right? NB
filmed in Burkina Faso. So like, “Yay”.OF: That's so funny. You're being just as
tokenistic as I am. Great.NB: Exposed. But it's
a great film. It's a great film.OF: Yeah. If you can have the intersection
between diversity and quality, which isexactly what I have in this interview, hello.
NB (20:05):
Hi! OF
obviously what you’re looking for.NB: Yes. Exactly, exactly.
OF (20:10):
Interesting. And so talk to me about the events element,
you've put on some markets and events.NB: Yes I put on markets. The markets are
intended to bring business owners and serviceproviders from the Afro-diaspora. People who
are already existing, and people who want tostart. And I just don't want only Africans.
Yeah of course. NB
(20:31):
I swear, 90% of the people who were there, Idon't know who they were. And I was like “Yes”.
And presumably you're reaching out to the Shanghainese here as well, right?
NB (20:38):
Yes. And they're the most difficult audience to get. I remember one guy who brought his son.
And there was a band, a Ghanian and Filipino trio.This boy was dancing the whole time. And the dad
said “He's having so much fun. Why don't I knowabout this?” And he called his wife “Hey, bring
(20:59):
the other son, come through. It’s lovely here.”You know, so it's something that can definitely
be enjoyable once they become part of it. So I amreally hoping to grow. And I know I will, I know I
will. The community will grow in diversity. Yeah.OF: If I was in London, I would see this
more often. You know, you walk down thestreet and there's a Venezuelan bar,
(21:19):
and then there is the Kenyan restaurant, likewhatever. The world is there. And Shanghai is
definitely getting there. But I don't see asmuch African stuff. And I don't see as many
African people as I would in a street elsewhere.NB: Neither do I. And it's funny that you say
that, because before I got into events, me and myfriends would always say “Where do African people
hang out, or just black people in general?”OF: Yeah, right.
(21:41):
Are there these underground spots that you don't know of? Because I want to be there. I
want to be in there, sign me up.OF: And what is the answer?
We don't know. It doesn’t… OK, I know that there's a community, but I don’t see it.
So I still don't have the answer to that.OF: But then you create these markets,
and suddenly they appear. Suddenly…NB: People come through. Yeah and I mean, there
(22:03):
are other people doing, you know, similar things.And they also bring the community together. So
it's good that there are people out here who aretrying to bring us together. Because every time
I'm at my events, I love it. It feels like I'm atmy grandmother's house. This laughter, there's a
smell of food, there’s just like the busyness,the energy that is so familiar to home.
OF (22:24):
Yeah. NB
Well, thank you so much, Noxy. NB
But we're not done. We're going on to Part 2. NB
[Part 2]OF:
OK, Part 2. We'll start with Question 1.What is your favourite China-related fact?
NB (22:42):
Ice cream was discovered in China… OF
NB… But perfected by the Italians.OF: Wow, that's for real?
That's for real, for real. Look it up guys. OF
Right? OF
a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?NB: I do: 可以 [Kěyǐ]. It means ‘I can’,
right? Yeah, if you're asking somebody if they canmake something for you, or deliver something at a
(23:07):
particular time, then they say “可以 [kěyǐ]”.OF: It has like, kind of like “Yeah,
coming right up!”NB: Yeah, exactly, exactly.
OF (23:13):
“I can do it for you.” NB
It’s always got a positive connotation, really.
NB (23:17):
True, yeah. OF
destination within China? She's struggling…Because you've lived in different places,
right? Where have you lived actually?NB: 合肥 [Héféi] and 南京 [Nánjīng]. I'm so
embarrassed. I haven't travelled a lot in China.OF: Really?
I've been to 安吉 [Ānjí]. Beautiful. Though, the further you get away from the city, the better.
OF (23:42):
Yeah. NB
And what's 合肥 [Héféi] like? So you first lived there when you first arrived?
NB (23:47):
It's intimate. It's chilled. OF
Yeah. OF
I guess. It's just one of their cities where…NB: Exactly. You just live. You just live there.
There’s not too much happening, there’s not toomany options. So you really get to focus on just
building the relationships that you have.OF: Yeah.
I was going to the same foreign bar, like, all the time. You just walk in there, “Hey!”,
(24:10):
everybody knows each other. It was so chilled.OF: Yeah. ‘Ubuntu.’
100%. 100%. OF
the most, and what would you miss the least?NB: WeChat Pay, I would miss the most.
OF (24:24):
Oh yeah. NB
Yeah. NB
I believe are five years, 10 years ahead of otherparts in the world. The one thing I will not miss
is not being able to see the sky. It never getsold, whenever I get home, I’m like a little kid
(24:47):
just lost in wonder. I’m like “Oh my goodness,the sky is so blue. I can actually see stars”.
And I can taste the air when I land in Durban.You land by the ocean. You can just taste the
sea salt. And the air just hits you differently,man. So that's the one thing I will not miss,
is walking outside and not seeing the sky.OF: Mmm. Is there anything that still
(25:10):
surprises you about life in China?NB: How time moves differently here than the rest
of the world. We’re on a whole other planet. Timemoves so quickly here. And I've tested that out,
because there was a time I was living at homefor a year, and I had so much time. You can go to
Thailand, you can go to the Philippines.Yeah it’s holiday, sure. But I just feel
(25:34):
like I have more time when I'm not here.OF: Yeah. Things are moving so fast…
NB (25:40):
So fast. OF
you’ve missed something.”NB:
This city’s on steroids. This city’s on steroids.OF: Where is your favourite place to go,
to eat or drink or just hang out?NB: I love Lotus. It's an Indian restaurant.
I just go and sit on the cushions and it feelsso cosy. And Indian food is one of my favourite
(26:02):
cuisines. It's just like a taste of home.OF: Yeah. What is the best or the worst purchase
you've made in China?NB: Skirts.
OF (26:12):
Oh. NB
it is with skirts on Taobao.OF: OK.
NB (26:18):
You know, in China I'm a ‘5XL’ apparently. I don't even, like, feel bad about it because
I'm like “You’re not, honey, you’re not.”OF: But even saying ‘5XL’ is not what the
truth is. The truth is, it'sXXXXXL. Just seeing the five…
They make you see the ‘X’s. Like you follow them. Like these ‘X’s are not ending.
(26:42):
So, the worst purchases are skirts. Ihave not been able to wear cute skirts
in China. Thank you, China.OF: I love it. Yeah.
Oh man. OF:
What is your favourite WeChat sticker?NB: The first one is the girl with… That means
(27:03):
so many different things. It can mean “I'm beingnaughty” or like “Hi” in a cute way. It means so
many different things. I love her expression.OF: Yes.
Number two
OF (27:20):
That’s a good one. What is your go-to song to sing at KTV?
NB (27:27):
Uh, it's anything, man. Like, whatever feels good in the moment, you know?
One that I did recently is ‘Ordinary People’.OF: Oh, which one?
John Legend. Because… mainly because that song is one I think I can handle for now. So
that's what I've been singing recently.OF: It's in your range, it’s…
Yes. It's in my range. Exactly. Yes. OF
(27:53):
media or sources of information do you rely on?NB: None. But more seriously, I, you know,
especially like, you know, when we were beinginformed what's changing / what’s not changing,
during lockdown. You know, what'sbeing lifted, what isn't being lifted.
I would always confirm with a friendwho works in an international school.
(28:17):
So whatever sources she would beusing seem to be true. So that's
what I would do just cross-reference with her.OF: Yeah. Yeah, that's useful actually. I am
the same, because I do dip into certain newssources, and of course I check WeChat. But then
when it comes from someone who has a directlink to something official, then you listen.
Yes, yes, yes. OF
(28:38):
Thank you. This is lovely. This is fun. OF
question is, out of everyone you knowin China, who do you recommend that I
interview for the next season of Mosaic of China?NB: Yes, so this is a gentleman from Zimbabwe.
I do admire his work. He is a filmmaker,he is a director, and his work is stellar.
(28:58):
And for me, anybody who does the job anddoes it well, is just beautiful. His name is
Damian Savant. Yes, watch out for Damian Savant.OF: Thank you. I look forward to meeting Damian.
And thank you once again.NB: Thank you.
[Outro]OF:
Let me address the biggestcontroversy from today’s show.
(29:19):
It is true, an ice-cream-likefood was first eaten in China
in the 唐 [Táng] dynasty, it was a dishof ice, buffalo milk, flour and camphor.
That’s what I found on the internet anyway, soI don’t want any gelato gangs coming after me.
The second thing to address is the fact thatI am experimenting with a Chinese platform,
(29:40):
where you can listen to the PREMIUM versionof the show in China for the first time.
The app is called 爱发点 [Àifādiǎn], it costsjust 13RMB per month - which is the equivalent
to the USD2 per month it costs on Patreon,internationally - and that gives you access
to an extra 10-15 minutes per episode.Here are some clips from this week’s show…
(30:02):
[Clip 1]NB: When you come to one of my plays, I know how
to do ‘depressing and serious’ very well.[Clip 2]
And my skin was glowing. I was so beautiful during lockdown.
[Clip 3]NB: We had ‘pap’ which is like, a maize meal. So
‘pap’ can go with vegetable or meat dishes.[Clip 4]
We have a very violent history and we’re unhealed people.
(30:24):
[Clip 5]NB: I’m so basic. And I can't
change it. It's just, it is what it is.[End of Audio Clips]
I’ll keep today’s outro short, because Ialready talked way too much in the intro.
You can follow all the images from today’s show onInstagram, WeChat, Facebook, or mosaicofchina.com,
where you’ll see Noxolo’s object,her favourite WeChat stickers,
(30:47):
and a bunch of extra images and photosfrom some of the events we mentioned.
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs,with artwork by Denny Newell.
The catch-up chat with Yael Farjunfrom last season is coming right up,
and we’ll be back next week with Episode 15,which will be the halfway point of Season 02.
[Catch-Up Interview]OF:
(31:17):
Thank you so much, Yael.Yael Farjun: Really amazing to be back.
OF (31:20):
You've just come out of quarantine, correct? YF
OK. Welcome back to Shanghai. YF
You have an interesting story because you actually stayed in China quite a long time. And
then, at a random time, you decided to leave?YF: Yes. It was horrible timing, I would say.
(31:43):
But yes, I left about five or six days beforeChina decided to close the skies. And then I
was stuck outside.OF: Right.
YF (31:50):
Yes. OF
Yes. OF
Yes. OF
going on. It was a very difficult situation.YF: Very emotional too, I have to say.
OF (32:00):
Yeah YF
overcame the rational part, in that sense.OF: Really.
YF (32:05):
Yeah. OF
Well, I was here when everything happened. And because of COVID, I had to close my business
anyways, because tourism wasn't going to happen.OF: Right. Because I should mention… So
in our episode, you talked about yourresearch project with Jewish refugees.
Yes. OF
(32:27):
That was my business, I owned a travel agency, and an online travel agency. So technically two
businesses, or two operations. But both in inboundtourism, meaning people coming from abroad.
OF (32:39):
Yes. YF
all of that was gone. So for the first twomonths, it was all about survival, I would say.
Yeah. YF
realisation of the new situation, tryingto figure out what to do next, and how.
And then a few things came into the equation.First of all, it was almost a holiday in Israel.
(33:04):
Passover. Which I originally anyways planned to goto. And I say that coupling with the fact that I
took care of a dog of a good friend. They went outtravelling for the Chinese New Year, and then they
couldn't come back. So I had the dog with me. Andthey decided to continue to Israel after that. So
(33:28):
I had their dog with me, and I had to get it outof China and bring it back to them. Then there
was just this very small window, you know, thatI could actually take it out before every other
country started closing their skies, so…OF: Right. So you had to make a decision
quickly, right?YF: Yes, yes.
Yeah. That was crazy. YF
(33:50):
taking the dog with me on the flight was muchmore stressful than I thought it would be.
Oh no. YF
And its health and well-being, let’s say, so…OF: And that was really the main point of
you doing this.YF: Yes.
It was to reunite the dog with it owners. YF
Well, tell me then. So you mentioned at the beginning that you had to
(34:11):
say goodbye to your company.
YF (34:13):
Yeah. OF
process? And what are you doing these days?YF: OK. So, it was a necessity. I mean, I
understood that this is what I need to do. I triedto do it the best way I could. So I reached out to
all of our followers on the different platforms.And I made a public announcement. Pretty clear,
just to let them know that we are stopping.OF: Which was after how many years?
(34:36):
Ten years. OF
Yeah. The one thing that I couldn't let go of was the online company. So I left the website
there, online. And I didn't touch it. Andjust this last Saturday, actually, I had to
make a decision whether or not I keep itonline, because we keep spending money on it,
(34:59):
and it's not working technically. So I was like“OK, it's time to close it off completely”. And I
went sitting in Wagas, I opened my computer, Ilogged into the website, I took a look at it.
I started taking screenshots of all thepages, saying goodbye, and I didn't think
(35:22):
it's going to be so hard. But I found myselfsitting there and crying. Actually crying.
OF (35:29):
Yes. YF
years of work. And it's not easy to say goodbye.But it's necessary. And that's just what it is.
Oh, you're making me cry too. YF
actually realised I'm grieving, in a way.OF: Yes.
YF (35:49):
Closing it down was kind of like an end of an era, right?
OF (35:52):
Oh, totally. YF
and everything that I built in China.OF: Yes.
YF (36:01):
And suddenly, it was kind of like, a very distinctive ending. You know,
it's gone. If you go online now, you won't see it.OF: Oh, well, thank you for sharing that. So now
you are in a process of working out the next step.YF: Yes, sort of. So from an entrepreneur,
I moved into being an ‘intrapreneur’,meaning sort of an entrepreneur
(36:24):
within an existing organisation.OF: OK.
So I'm working now with a company based in China and operating here for 20 years now. And I'm
building for them a new project. So a new kind ofarm, you can say, that the company wanted to try.
And they hired me to do it. So I get to stillkeep my entrepreneurial spirit and way of working…
OF (36:48):
Yes. YF
organisation and company. So I have a lotof support with the existing teams, which
is incredible. A lot of new doors just opened.OF: Well, that's it. I think, in the future,
you'll look back on this as a chapter,you know, and you will say that it
happened for the right reasons.YF: Oh, for sure, for sure.
Yeah. YF
(37:10):
So many lessons that I've learned from China.So many new interests that I found living here,
It doesn't have to be just one verticalin your life, it could be so many.
Well, there is that. There is that sense of also feeling a bit liberated from something which
was so all-defining.YF: Yes.
You know, and that's kind of what happened in my life, when I did the same thing and stepped
(37:32):
away from my company. With all of that grief, withthat sorrow, with elements of joy, but elements of
regret. I know the whole spectrum of emotions.YF: Oh yes.
And now that I've had two years’ distance, that's when I can look back
and remember exactly the time that you're in.And know that no-one could tell you what you
should feel. But at the same time, knowing thatthat was a necessary stepping stone. YF: Yeah.
(37:55):
Well, speaking of stepping stones, how did it feel, then, when you
had that step back into China after havingbeen away, which presumably was the longest
you've been away from China all these years?YF: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I don't think I've been out
of China more than, let's say, three weeks. Thatwas the longest trip that I had. So yes, it felt
(38:16):
great. First of all, I could speak Chinese again.And I was like “Oh, my God, I did not forget how
to do that. It's amazing”. So… But yes, landingin Pudong in Shanghai, you know, recognising the
airport, seeing the city… Yes, I'm back home.OF: Well, in terms of your place in the Mosaic,
(38:36):
I'm so happy that you could be part of this.The person you recommended for the next season
actually had a similar situation to you, I think.Like many people, things changed, and many people
had to drop out of the next season. So sadly, yourreferral is now not going to be a connection. But
I was able to find a nice replacement.YF: Good.
So I hope that you enjoy who we are have got instead.
YF (38:57):
So many things changed. OF
So I'm really happy to know that you found someone else to do that.
OF (39:02):
Yes. And in the meantime, please stay in touch. I hope that you will continue to be an
active part of the Mosaic.YF: Oh, definitely.
[Trailer]NB: A kid asked me “Why are you black?”
I've never been asked that before.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
This episode is very special to me. In 1999-2001,I worked as an English teacher in rural Japan.
(00:29):
I was this 21-year old white boy from North-WestLondon in a town of about 12,000 people somewhere
in between Kobe and Hiroshima. And in that town,in that context, I was exotic. And over the course
of those 2 years, I got to know a very specificfeeling. And I don’t know if this feeling even has
a name. It was the feeling you get when you’rebeing recruited by someone to be their friend.
(00:54):
Now that wasn’t racism, that wasn’tdiscrimination. But what is it when
you’re being made to feel like you’re just thiscolourful new butterfly in someone’s collection.
It’s only now, over two decades later,that I’m starting to figure this out.
I grew up in a multicultural environment inLondon, where I just had friends who were people
of colour, by default. If someone had asked methen whether I had a diverse group of friends,
(01:19):
it would be just like that joke about one fishsaying “The water’s warm today’, and the other
one replying ‘What’s water?’ It’s just thereall around you, and you don’t question it.
But now I find myself in China, and Irealise that my friends aren’t, by default,
as diverse as before. And so what is thesolution to this, without becoming one of
(01:41):
those well-meaning individuals I learnt to detestin the Japanese countryside, twenty years ago?
I’m so grateful to today’s guest, not justfor what she is doing to address this type
of exposure deficit in China, but for doing itwith a humour that is so infectious. You’ll hear
it right from the start, and our conversationshould resonate with you, no matter who you are
(02:05):
or where in the world you’re listening. Also, mycatch-up interview with Yael Farjun from Season 01
Episode 12 at the end of today's show is alsovery special, so stick around until the end.
[Part 1]OF:
Thank you for coming, Noxy.NB: Absolutely. I am
happy I am here, let’s do this.OF: I want to say your name properly,
(02:26):
your name is Noxolo, right?NB: Oh, you're getting there.
You've been practising athome, how many times a day?
OF (02:32):
Oh, let me tell you, it's a 35-minute walk from my home to this studio. And
I was saying “Noxolo, Noxolo” all the way.NB: See, guys, be like Oscar. Do what Oscar does.
So it's ‘Noxolo’. I do prefer being called‘Noxolo’ because that's my name. And it just has
such a beautiful meaning, it means ‘Mother ofPeace’. So I want to get people into the habit of,
(02:54):
you know, trying out these complicated names,instead of being scared by these names.
Let's rather learn, like how you've been doing,and I appreciate that. But if you can’t say
‘Noxolo’, ‘Noxy’ is OK.OF: ‘Noxy'.
NB (03:06):
Yeah. OF
let's see, because I have to go into kind of likea meditative state to actually say it sometimes.
Align your chakra. OF:
OK, but thank you for giving me the way outby saying ‘Noxy’. And, like, people in China
would call you ‘Noxy’, or..?NB: Yeah, they call me Noxy.
OF (03:21):
Well, before we get into that, let us talk about the object which represents
your life in China. So what did you bring?NB: I brought… It's a photograph from the
first original play that I put on in Shanghai.And the image, for me, symbolises the journey,
and why I have to keep going in the journey. Andthe person who gave me this image as a gift is a
(03:47):
friend who I met on that day. It's a snap froma moment in the play. I don't remember exactly
which part of the play this was in. But we werejust led by the energy of the moment, yeah.
Nice. And so you brought a photo of it, why didn't you bring the actual thing itself?
NB (04:06):
I couldn't bring it because I have to run around the city today. And I
don't want to carry this image the whole time.OF: I'm happy you actually brought it as a photo
because it really does symbolise how you live yourlife, which is rushing from one thing to the next,
right? You are hustling.NB: That's interesting.
OF (04:27):
Whenever I've encountered you - in person, or when we're messaging
each other on text - you're always like “OK,I've got this on. I can't do this now. I've
got this next. Like, you are on the move.NB: That's true. And I've called myself
out recently.OF: Oh right?
NB (04:42):
Recently was two days ago. Taking 30 minutes, just to go and clear your mind and do something
nice for yourself is soimportant. It's so healthy.
So you are correct. I am always, like, on thego. I don't like it, I just… Can't I just…
Can somebody just make me a housewife?OF: Oh my word. That’s so funny. Well,
(05:06):
yes, I agree with the need to walk around.And, you know, I wouldn't have been able to
practice ‘ Noxolo’ all morning if I was…NB: There you go! If you’re cooped
up in the studio.OF: Well, you want
someone who is hard to compartmentalise.So, how would I introduce you? What is
your title? Like, how do you introduce yourself?NB: It depends where I am and who I'm speaking to.
(05:29):
I don’t generally introduce myself asanything else but ‘Noxolo’, right? It's like,
you know in China when you meet somebody for thefirst time - especially if it's like an event,
and - the go-to is “Where are you from?” IfI've had a conversation for even 15 minutes,
and you haven't brought up “Where are you from?”,I’m like “This is an amazing conversation”.
OF (05:50):
Oh, that's so funny. NB
so many other things to talk about in the room.Maybe there's food in the room, maybe “Oh, this
is an interesting book launch”. You know, there'sa reason why we’re in that room for the event. So
there's other things to speak about. So I juststep into a room, “Hi, I'm Noxolo’” you know,
and “Who are you?” And then we speak about otherthings. And if it's a space where I want to work
(06:13):
with somebody, collaborate with somebody, then Iwould speak on that. I would introduce myself as
a writer, if that's what I would like to be knownfor in that space. Or a dancer, if that's what I
would like to be known for in that space, youknow. Or a budding entrepreneur, if that's what
I want to be known for in that space. So… depends.OF: Yeah. And you've touched upon a lot of what I
(06:36):
wanted to talk to you about. Because,you know, it's about your identity.
You know, you are sort of a walking ambassador foryour identity. That's the issue, isn't it? Whether
you like it or not, people are gonna look at you.And when they hear your name, I mean, that's going
to be another thing, like “What is that name?Where do you come from?” Like, it is something
which even I approached this conversation with…An element of ‘ickiness’, because… You know,
(07:01):
let me just be honest with you. So in my firstseason, I had some feedback where it was like
“You had 30 episodes, and not one blackperson? Like, that’s bad representation”.
So when you and I first met, it was througha recommendation from a friend of ours, Clem.
NB (07:14):
Yeah. OF
be honest with you, like “Right, I've got a gap inthe series, I would like to fill that with someone
who represents Africa”. And that is ‘icky’,because it's about representation but at the same
time there's an element of tokenism, where I'msearching for someone who can represent Africa.
Yeah. OF
to me. So you embody that. And I think I can comefrom that from a European perspective, with all
(07:38):
that historical baggage. But I wonder, like, whatis that experience from your side here in China?
When you approached me, I appreciated your honesty. And that's the only reason I was so
open to you as a person and what you do, becauseif you're not exposed to people, how do you then
know those kinds of people? It's all aboutassociation, it's all about relationships.
(08:03):
I'm not sure if I am an ambassador, likean African ambassador, you know? Because
I look at all these different countries ofAfrica, and these cultures that I don't know of,
places that I'm yet to go to myself, andjust really learn what this country is about,
who these people are about. I’m like, howcan I then represent that, when I don't know
(08:27):
anything about that? You know?OF: And yet, you probably are
called upon to do it.NB: There we go.
OF (08:33):
It’s not about really internally, it's about what the external pressure is putting onto you.
NB (08:37):
And therefore because of that… And it's actually not a bad pressure.
Because it's something that I should be immersingmyself in, should be understanding better. Like,
even in school in history. I did history. AndI love history. European history, I know it.
Industrial Revolution, ask me anything,I’ll tell you. What? Napoleon Bonaparte,
(09:02):
the Cold War, anything, anything. African history,even South African history, was just touched on.
It's only when I was older, it was like “No, man.I don't know anything about my own continent".
OF (09:12):
Yeah. NB
country. Once upon a time, before Oscar came.OF: Oh, no, no! Don’t blame it on me.
But I mean, absolutely, I embody that.And I think part of where I come from
is with that European background. And that's whyit's fascinating to talk to you in the context
(09:33):
of China, which is distant from there. And Imean, I'm the same as you. Like, I never had
to question my identity before I came to Asia forthe first time, where suddenly I had to represent
white people, Europeans. They had no idea thedifference between an English person, a Polish
person, or you name it. A Jew or a Christian,it’s all the same, it’s all just ‘The West’.
NB (09:50):
Homogenous society. You learn so much. OF
“Well who am I?” when you're actually in thatenvironment, right? I mean, let's talk about
that. Let's talk about where you come from.So you said that your name means, what was it?
‘Mother of Peace’. OF
It’s a Zulu name. But it's also a Xhosa name. But we were one thing before the tribes separated?
OF (10:11):
Oh, right. NB
up in a city called Durban.OF: Right.
NB (10:17):
Yes. OF
would identify as more Zulu, or more Xhosa?NB: Ah, no you got the click. I'm definitely
Zulu. You know, I grew up in a Zulu province and
my surname is Zulu, my father’s Zulu, yeah.OF: Right. And so what languages would you
have spoken at home?NB: Zulu, just Zulu.
OF (10:35):
And English? NB
for school. But with my mother, we speak Zulu.OF: And so you said that you had this affinity
with European history. Like,what was that? Did you have
some kind of affiliation with Europe, or..?NB: No, it was just what I was been taught.
To the point where, when I could travel on myown, I wanted to go to Europe. Now I’m like “No,
(11:00):
I want to go and explore Africa. I want to goand eat African food that I've never smelt.
That I don't even know how to pronounce.That I don't even know exists”. So it was
just what I was exposed to, what I was being fed.OF: And that's a function of the syllabus itself
still being like from… I just clicked. Oh my god.And that's a function of the syllabus still, sort
(11:21):
of, having the remnants of European influence?NB: Yeah. Not even just the syllabus. Our school
song was quite colonial, you know. And notknowing what I was singing, I was just like,
belting it out.OF: Yes.
NB (11:35):
You know, so the fact that it wasn't apparent to me that it was so problematic, speaking about
these, essentially, invaders who came to Africa,and we're praising them for their heroic deeds.
OF (11:51):
Yes. NB
And I wonder, like, is this something which had you stayed in South Africa,
you would have been so aware of. Or is it comingto a place like China, where you do have the blank
space to think about “Oh, yeah. What was thatabout?” Rather than just, sort of, existing in it?
NB (12:09):
Yeah. I think if I'd stayed in South Africa, I’d be the way that I am right now,
because of the people that I surround myself with.However, when you are outside of the country…
I don't know, my antennas are… What's the word?OF: Yeah, ‘flicking’?
‘Flicking’ there we go. You know, I'm so alert. I'm in a constant state of ‘otherness’.
OF (12:31):
Yeah. NB
So there's things to unpack, there’s things tolearn, by just constantly being a foreigner.
Yeah, yeah. NB
Being in the room. NB
“Why are you black?” And I was like…OF: It's a good question.
NB (12:54):
I've never been asked that before. And I mean, I'm not angry at this kid.
I was like “Oh, so such questions exist?” Youknow? So for me, this was a teaching moment, more
than a moment to reprimand this eight-year-old whogenuinely doesn't know why there are black people.
OF (13:17):
Absolutely. NB
knew why there are white people. But I'm justgonna address what he’s asking right now. So
I treated that moment with such kindness.OF: Yeah. But this is what I mean. Like,
when you are here, and confronted with such aquestion… Like, you would never be confronted
with that question anywhere else.NB: No.
And so that's why I think it is an interesting experience to actually have to then think, “Yeah,
(13:40):
why am I black?” Like, itactually is a good question.
NB (13:43):
When you say it's a good question, can you tell me like, what do you mean by that?
OF (13:48):
Well, because then you say “Well, it's about pigment. It's about
my genes. It's about the historical evolutionof how people travelled around the world,
and how people somehow changed through breedingand through, you know, going through different
changes because of their environments. And,boom, you're already thinking about things
that in the normal course of your life in SouthAfrica, you would never have to think about that.
(14:11):
And that's just a silly example, of course…NB: No, it's not. It's not a silly example.
It's an example that I would not think about. Butnow I'm like “Hmm, interesting”. Because for me,
I'm black because I am.OF: Yeah.
NB (14:22):
Full stop. OF
Yeah, it is. Because actually, if you go down theline that I was going down, you almost have to
justify your blackness? Like, no!NB: Exactly, yeah.
OF (14:32):
So yeah, I can see why your answer would have been the right one at that time.
So tell me about growing up in Durban. That'swhere you said you were from, right? Was that
a big city, were you in one of the suburbs?NB: I had a beautiful childhood. I'm sure
there were things that I didn't like aboutmy childhood, but I can’t even remember them.
The place that I spent most of my time ingrowing up, Umlazi, it was very community
(14:54):
based. Everybody supported each other. If somebodypassed away, you best believe everybody on that
street is coming through to help, with takingcare of the family, whatever is needed. So even
if you didn't have much, you know, if you didn'thave enough food, you didn't have to worry about
sleeping on an empty stomach. You could justgo to the neighbour and they would understand.
(15:15):
Right. NB
supportive community, full of ‘Ubuntu’…OF: What’s ‘Ubuntu’?
NB (15:22):
‘Ubuntu’ essentially means “I am because you are”. So it's knowing that nobody exists
exclusively, we need each other to keep going,to grow. It's very simple. If you're walking
down the street, you greet that person. And thisis something that I've been struggling with in
(15:42):
China. People not greeting each other, even inthe office space. If you walk into an office,
I've been in environments where people evendon't say “Good morning”. To the point where
I said “Did we sleep in the same house?” No, I’vesaid that before. Because it was so alarming. But
Africans, regardless of what race you are,people greet. And I'm like “They get it.”
OF (16:02):
Right. NB
you greet everybody at the bus stop.OF: Right.
NB (16:07):
And if you don't create an elderly person, that is considered the highest form of disrespect,
not greeting an elderly. So ‘Ubuntu’for me is something that I'm glad
that I carry with me, in all areas of my life.OF: Yeah. That’s beautiful. So with that
background, how did you end up in China?NB: I ended up in China as a way of saving
(16:30):
up money to move to New York. So for me, the dream- as an actress, as a writer, as a director - was
always New York. And here I am, still in Shanghai.OF: And so how long have you been in China so far?
I think it's five, six years now. Yeah. OF
to move on to New York?NB: New York will happen,
(16:51):
but it's no longer like THE destination, yeah.OF: And I'm looking at your
photo. What was your life then?NB: My life revolved around pushing my Theatre
Company, LWuD Theatre, which means ‘Love What UDo’. I was putting on plays, I wrote a children's
play that was performed in 南京 [Nánjīng]. So Iwas in that world. My entire focus was how to
(17:15):
keep the theatre company moving, how to create. Somy days revolved around writing. You know, yeah.
OF (17:22):
So in that world - which is 2019, we're talking about - you were principally a writer.
NB (17:28):
Yes. OF
in 2020 didn't quite work out the same, did they?NB: No. 100% not. It was just like survival mode.
And it's so funny, because December, I was onBali, living my best life. It was like “OK, you
know, I've got these lucrative contracts that I'vegotten myself into, which are going to set me for
(17:50):
six months of the year, which is fabulous, thatI can just focus on writing”. Then life happened.
OF (17:55):
Yeah. NB
you should have saved better”. Then I realisedthat, OK, there has been a big gap in my finances.
I know nothing. This is my approach in life, Iknow nothing about business. I'm still learning
how to build a legacy and being financially smart.I don't come from money, because historically
(18:17):
people who look like me in my country weren'tsupposed to have generational wealth. So I need
to be part of the group of people who break that.OF: And even having money,
it's not the same as having wealth, right?NB: Exactly. Exactly. It's not the same. I
can't even blame my family for not teaching mehow to manage money. Because nobody taught them
(18:38):
that. It was all about survival. You know, so‘Ndawo Afrika’, which is ‘Africa, the place’
is what I created, which revolves aroundcurating different experiences from the
Afro-diaspora. So we have film, we havecultural events, we have markets. It's so new.
That's why sometimes I stop myself from beinghard on myself. Like “You just started. Easy
(19:02):
tiger. Give it time, you know, give it time.You've been doing all that you can do, just
to solidify the foundation. Now you will build.”OF: And this reminds me of what you said earlier
about how you want to actually know moreabout the variety of countries around Africa.
NB (19:17):
Yes. OF
which you're doing through this process?NB: Trying to do. So at this point,
I'm doing what I can do. For example, with thefilms, right? The goal is to screen films or
documentaries from the Afro-diaspora.But the filmmakers who I’ve managed to
get into contact with are mostly SouthAfrican. And I'm like “No, but I want somebody
(19:39):
from Senegal, I want somebody fromMorocco. I want the Afro-diaspora”.
OF (19:43):
You gotta start somewhere, right? NB
filmed in Burkina Faso. So like, “Yay”.OF: That's so funny. You're being just as
tokenistic as I am. Great.NB: Exposed. But it's
a great film. It's a great film.OF: Yeah. If you can have the intersection
between diversity and quality, which isexactly what I have in this interview, hello.
NB (20:05):
Hi! OF
obviously what you’re looking for.NB: Yes. Exactly, exactly.
OF (20:10):
Interesting. And so talk to me about the events element,
you've put on some markets and events.NB: Yes I put on markets. The markets are
intended to bring business owners and serviceproviders from the Afro-diaspora. People who
are already existing, and people who want tostart. And I just don't want only Africans.
Yeah of course. NB
(20:31):
I swear, 90% of the people who were there, Idon't know who they were. And I was like “Yes”.
And presumably you're reaching out to the Shanghainese here as well, right?
NB (20:38):
Yes. And they're the most difficult audience to get. I remember one guy who brought his son.
And there was a band, a Ghanian and Filipino trio.This boy was dancing the whole time. And the dad
said “He's having so much fun. Why don't I knowabout this?” And he called his wife “Hey, bring
(20:59):
the other son, come through. It’s lovely here.”You know, so it's something that can definitely
be enjoyable once they become part of it. So I amreally hoping to grow. And I know I will, I know I
will. The community will grow in diversity. Yeah.OF: If I was in London, I would see this
more often. You know, you walk down thestreet and there's a Venezuelan bar,
(21:19):
and then there is the Kenyan restaurant, likewhatever. The world is there. And Shanghai is
definitely getting there. But I don't see asmuch African stuff. And I don't see as many
African people as I would in a street elsewhere.NB: Neither do I. And it's funny that you say
that, because before I got into events, me and myfriends would always say “Where do African people
hang out, or just black people in general?”OF: Yeah, right.
(21:41):
Are there these underground spots that you don't know of? Because I want to be there. I
want to be in there, sign me up.OF: And what is the answer?
We don't know. It doesn’t… OK, I know that there's a community, but I don’t see it.
So I still don't have the answer to that.OF: But then you create these markets,
and suddenly they appear. Suddenly…NB: People come through. Yeah and I mean, there
(22:03):
are other people doing, you know, similar things.And they also bring the community together. So
it's good that there are people out here who aretrying to bring us together. Because every time
I'm at my events, I love it. It feels like I'm atmy grandmother's house. This laughter, there's a
smell of food, there’s just like the busyness,the energy that is so familiar to home.
OF (22:24):
Yeah. NB
Well, thank you so much, Noxy. NB
But we're not done. We're going on to Part 2. NB
[Part 2]OF:
OK, Part 2. We'll start with Question 1.What is your favourite China-related fact?
NB (22:42):
Ice cream was discovered in China… OF
NB… But perfected by the Italians.OF: Wow, that's for real?
That's for real, for real. Look it up guys. OF
Right? OF
a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?NB: I do: 可以 [Kěyǐ]. It means ‘I can’,
right? Yeah, if you're asking somebody if they canmake something for you, or deliver something at a
(23:07):
particular time, then they say “可以 [kěyǐ]”.OF: It has like, kind of like “Yeah,
coming right up!”NB: Yeah, exactly, exactly.
OF (23:13):
“I can do it for you.” NB
It’s always got a positive connotation, really.
NB (23:17):
True, yeah. OF
destination within China? She's struggling…Because you've lived in different places,
right? Where have you lived actually?NB: 合肥 [Héféi] and 南京 [Nánjīng]. I'm so
embarrassed. I haven't travelled a lot in China.OF: Really?
I've been to 安吉 [Ānjí]. Beautiful. Though, the further you get away from the city, the better.
OF (23:42):
Yeah. NB
And what's 合肥 [Héféi] like? So you first lived there when you first arrived?
NB (23:47):
It's intimate. It's chilled. OF
Yeah. OF
I guess. It's just one of their cities where…NB: Exactly. You just live. You just live there.
There’s not too much happening, there’s not toomany options. So you really get to focus on just
building the relationships that you have.OF: Yeah.
I was going to the same foreign bar, like, all the time. You just walk in there, “Hey!”,
(24:10):
everybody knows each other. It was so chilled.OF: Yeah. ‘Ubuntu.’
100%. 100%. OF
the most, and what would you miss the least?NB: WeChat Pay, I would miss the most.
OF (24:24):
Oh yeah. NB
Yeah. NB
I believe are five years, 10 years ahead of otherparts in the world. The one thing I will not miss
is not being able to see the sky. It never getsold, whenever I get home, I’m like a little kid
(24:47):
just lost in wonder. I’m like “Oh my goodness,the sky is so blue. I can actually see stars”.
And I can taste the air when I land in Durban.You land by the ocean. You can just taste the
sea salt. And the air just hits you differently,man. So that's the one thing I will not miss,
is walking outside and not seeing the sky.OF: Mmm. Is there anything that still
(25:10):
surprises you about life in China?NB: How time moves differently here than the rest
of the world. We’re on a whole other planet. Timemoves so quickly here. And I've tested that out,
because there was a time I was living at homefor a year, and I had so much time. You can go to
Thailand, you can go to the Philippines.Yeah it’s holiday, sure. But I just feel
(25:34):
like I have more time when I'm not here.OF: Yeah. Things are moving so fast…
NB (25:40):
So fast. OF
you’ve missed something.”NB:
This city’s on steroids. This city’s on steroids.OF: Where is your favourite place to go,
to eat or drink or just hang out?NB: I love Lotus. It's an Indian restaurant.
I just go and sit on the cushions and it feelsso cosy. And Indian food is one of my favourite
(26:02):
cuisines. It's just like a taste of home.OF: Yeah. What is the best or the worst purchase
you've made in China?NB: Skirts.
OF (26:12):
Oh. NB
it is with skirts on Taobao.OF: OK.
NB (26:18):
You know, in China I'm a ‘5XL’ apparently. I don't even, like, feel bad about it because
I'm like “You’re not, honey, you’re not.”OF: But even saying ‘5XL’ is not what the
truth is. The truth is, it'sXXXXXL. Just seeing the five…
They make you see the ‘X’s. Like you follow them. Like these ‘X’s are not ending.
(26:42):
So, the worst purchases are skirts. Ihave not been able to wear cute skirts
in China. Thank you, China.OF: I love it. Yeah.
Oh man. OF:
What is your favourite WeChat sticker?NB: The first one is the girl with… That means
(27:03):
so many different things. It can mean “I'm beingnaughty” or like “Hi” in a cute way. It means so
many different things. I love her expression.OF: Yes.
Number two
OF (27:20):
That’s a good one. What is your go-to song to sing at KTV?
NB (27:27):
Uh, it's anything, man. Like, whatever feels good in the moment, you know?
One that I did recently is ‘Ordinary People’.OF: Oh, which one?
John Legend. Because… mainly because that song is one I think I can handle for now. So
that's what I've been singing recently.OF: It's in your range, it’s…
Yes. It's in my range. Exactly. Yes. OF
(27:53):
media or sources of information do you rely on?NB: None. But more seriously, I, you know,
especially like, you know, when we were beinginformed what's changing / what’s not changing,
during lockdown. You know, what'sbeing lifted, what isn't being lifted.
I would always confirm with a friendwho works in an international school.
(28:17):
So whatever sources she would beusing seem to be true. So that's
what I would do just cross-reference with her.OF: Yeah. Yeah, that's useful actually. I am
the same, because I do dip into certain newssources, and of course I check WeChat. But then
when it comes from someone who has a directlink to something official, then you listen.
Yes, yes, yes. OF
(28:38):
Thank you. This is lovely. This is fun. OF
question is, out of everyone you knowin China, who do you recommend that I
interview for the next season of Mosaic of China?NB: Yes, so this is a gentleman from Zimbabwe.
I do admire his work. He is a filmmaker,he is a director, and his work is stellar.
(28:58):
And for me, anybody who does the job anddoes it well, is just beautiful. His name is
Damian Savant. Yes, watch out for Damian Savant.OF: Thank you. I look forward to meeting Damian.
And thank you once again.NB: Thank you.
[Outro]OF:
Let me address the biggestcontroversy from today’s show.
(29:19):
It is true, an ice-cream-likefood was first eaten in China
in the 唐 [Táng] dynasty, it was a dishof ice, buffalo milk, flour and camphor.
That’s what I found on the internet anyway, soI don’t want any gelato gangs coming after me.
The second thing to address is the fact thatI am experimenting with a Chinese platform,
(29:40):
where you can listen to the PREMIUM versionof the show in China for the first time.
The app is called 爱发点 [Àifādiǎn], it costsjust 13RMB per month - which is the equivalent
to the USD2 per month it costs on Patreon,internationally - and that gives you access
to an extra 10-15 minutes per episode.Here are some clips from this week’s show…
(30:02):
[Clip 1]NB: When you come to one of my plays, I know how
to do ‘depressing and serious’ very well.[Clip 2]
And my skin was glowing. I was so beautiful during lockdown.
[Clip 3]NB: We had ‘pap’ which is like, a maize meal. So
‘pap’ can go with vegetable or meat dishes.[Clip 4]
We have a very violent history and we’re unhealed people.
(30:24):
[Clip 5]NB: I’m so basic. And I can't
change it. It's just, it is what it is.[End of Audio Clips]
I’ll keep today’s outro short, because Ialready talked way too much in the intro.
You can follow all the images from today’s show onInstagram, WeChat, Facebook, or mosaicofchina.com,
where you’ll see Noxolo’s object,her favourite WeChat stickers,
(30:47):
and a bunch of extra images and photosfrom some of the events we mentioned.
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs,with artwork by Denny Newell.
The catch-up chat with Yael Farjunfrom last season is coming right up,
and we’ll be back next week with Episode 15,which will be the halfway point of Season 02.
[Catch-Up Interview]OF:
(31:17):
Thank you so much, Yael.Yael Farjun: Really amazing to be back.
OF (31:20):
You've just come out of quarantine, correct? YF
OK. Welcome back to Shanghai. YF
You have an interesting story because you actually stayed in China quite a long time. And
then, at a random time, you decided to leave?YF: Yes. It was horrible timing, I would say.
(31:43):
But yes, I left about five or six days beforeChina decided to close the skies. And then I
was stuck outside.OF: Right.
YF (31:50):
Yes. OF
Yes. OF
Yes. OF
going on. It was a very difficult situation.YF: Very emotional too, I have to say.
OF (32:00):
Yeah YF
overcame the rational part, in that sense.OF: Really.
YF (32:05):
Yeah. OF
Well, I was here when everything happened. And because of COVID, I had to close my business
anyways, because tourism wasn't going to happen.OF: Right. Because I should mention… So
in our episode, you talked about yourresearch project with Jewish refugees.
Yes. OF
(32:27):
That was my business, I owned a travel agency, and an online travel agency. So technically two
businesses, or two operations. But both in inboundtourism, meaning people coming from abroad.
OF (32:39):
Yes. YF
all of that was gone. So for the first twomonths, it was all about survival, I would say.
Yeah. YF
realisation of the new situation, tryingto figure out what to do next, and how.
And then a few things came into the equation.First of all, it was almost a holiday in Israel.
(33:04):
Passover. Which I originally anyways planned to goto. And I say that coupling with the fact that I
took care of a dog of a good friend. They went outtravelling for the Chinese New Year, and then they
couldn't come back. So I had the dog with me. Andthey decided to continue to Israel after that. So
(33:28):
I had their dog with me, and I had to get it outof China and bring it back to them. Then there
was just this very small window, you know, thatI could actually take it out before every other
country started closing their skies, so…OF: Right. So you had to make a decision
quickly, right?YF: Yes, yes.
Yeah. That was crazy. YF
(33:50):
taking the dog with me on the flight was muchmore stressful than I thought it would be.
Oh no. YF
And its health and well-being, let’s say, so…OF: And that was really the main point of
you doing this.YF: Yes.
It was to reunite the dog with it owners. YF
Well, tell me then. So you mentioned at the beginning that you had to
(34:11):
say goodbye to your company.
YF (34:13):
Yeah. OF
process? And what are you doing these days?YF: OK. So, it was a necessity. I mean, I
understood that this is what I need to do. I triedto do it the best way I could. So I reached out to
all of our followers on the different platforms.And I made a public announcement. Pretty clear,
just to let them know that we are stopping.OF: Which was after how many years?
(34:36):
Ten years. OF
Yeah. The one thing that I couldn't let go of was the online company. So I left the website
there, online. And I didn't touch it. Andjust this last Saturday, actually, I had to
make a decision whether or not I keep itonline, because we keep spending money on it,
(34:59):
and it's not working technically. So I was like“OK, it's time to close it off completely”. And I
went sitting in Wagas, I opened my computer, Ilogged into the website, I took a look at it.
I started taking screenshots of all thepages, saying goodbye, and I didn't think
(35:22):
it's going to be so hard. But I found myselfsitting there and crying. Actually crying.
OF (35:29):
Yes. YF
years of work. And it's not easy to say goodbye.But it's necessary. And that's just what it is.
Oh, you're making me cry too. YF
actually realised I'm grieving, in a way.OF: Yes.
YF (35:49):
Closing it down was kind of like an end of an era, right?
OF (35:52):
Oh, totally. YF
and everything that I built in China.OF: Yes.
YF (36:01):
And suddenly, it was kind of like, a very distinctive ending. You know,
it's gone. If you go online now, you won't see it.OF: Oh, well, thank you for sharing that. So now
you are in a process of working out the next step.YF: Yes, sort of. So from an entrepreneur,
I moved into being an ‘intrapreneur’,meaning sort of an entrepreneur
(36:24):
within an existing organisation.OF: OK.
So I'm working now with a company based in China and operating here for 20 years now. And I'm
building for them a new project. So a new kind ofarm, you can say, that the company wanted to try.
And they hired me to do it. So I get to stillkeep my entrepreneurial spirit and way of working…
OF (36:48):
Yes. YF
organisation and company. So I have a lotof support with the existing teams, which
is incredible. A lot of new doors just opened.OF: Well, that's it. I think, in the future,
you'll look back on this as a chapter,you know, and you will say that it
happened for the right reasons.YF: Oh, for sure, for sure.
Yeah. YF
(37:10):
So many lessons that I've learned from China.So many new interests that I found living here,
It doesn't have to be just one verticalin your life, it could be so many.
Well, there is that. There is that sense of also feeling a bit liberated from something which
was so all-defining.YF: Yes.
You know, and that's kind of what happened in my life, when I did the same thing and stepped
(37:32):
away from my company. With all of that grief, withthat sorrow, with elements of joy, but elements of
regret. I know the whole spectrum of emotions.YF: Oh yes.
And now that I've had two years’ distance, that's when I can look back
and remember exactly the time that you're in.And know that no-one could tell you what you
should feel. But at the same time, knowing thatthat was a necessary stepping stone. YF: Yeah.
(37:55):
Well, speaking of stepping stones, how did it feel, then, when you
had that step back into China after havingbeen away, which presumably was the longest
you've been away from China all these years?YF: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I don't think I've been out
of China more than, let's say, three weeks. Thatwas the longest trip that I had. So yes, it felt
(38:16):
great. First of all, I could speak Chinese again.And I was like “Oh, my God, I did not forget how
to do that. It's amazing”. So… But yes, landingin Pudong in Shanghai, you know, recognising the
airport, seeing the city… Yes, I'm back home.OF: Well, in terms of your place in the Mosaic,
(38:36):
I'm so happy that you could be part of this.The person you recommended for the next season
actually had a similar situation to you, I think.Like many people, things changed, and many people
had to drop out of the next season. So sadly, yourreferral is now not going to be a connection. But
I was able to find a nice replacement.YF: Good.
So I hope that you enjoy who we are have got instead.
YF (38:57):
So many things changed. OF
So I'm really happy to know that you found someone else to do that.
OF (39:02):
Yes. And in the meantime, please stay in touch. I hope that you will continue to be an
active part of the Mosaic.YF: Oh, definitely.
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