March 13, 2023 • 48 mins
By now you've probably heard about Burning Man, the festival that in recent years attracts over 80,000 participants to the deserts of Nevada. But did you know that there's an equivalent event in China called Dragon Burn (龙焰)? Today's guest on the Mosaic of China podcast is Francesca Valsecchi, a professor at Tongji University in Shanghai and one of the active participants behind Dragon Burn. In our fun and wide-ranging chat, we discuss how she combines these two worlds under the principles of communality, immediacy and de-commodification. The episode also includes a catch-up interview with: Alex Shoer from Season 02 Episode 11 https://mosaicofchina.com/season-02-episode-11-alex-shoer
00:00 - Trailer & Intro
01:58 - Part 1
25:19 - Part 2
38:32 - Outro
40:55 - Catch-Up Interview
Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at: https://mosaicofchina.com/season-03-episode-16-francesca-valsecchi Join the community: Instagram https://instagram.com/oscology LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/mosaicofchina Facebook https://facebook.com/mosaicofchina WeChat https://mosaicofchina.com/wechat
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
[Trailer]FV: I don't sing the Cantonese.
OF (00:04):
You don’t? FV
to sing the Cantonese thing, of course!
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
It's been a short while, but we're finallyback with the second half of Season 03.
(00:25):
If you’re a new listener, welcome, andhere’s a quick recap of how the show works.
There are three parts to each interview. The firstpart is a straightforward two-way conversation,
which starts with the guest introducing an objectthat in some way describes their life in China.
In the second part, I ask every guest the same10 China-related questions, all on the theme of
(00:50):
their personal experiences, tastes and opinions.And the final part is just one extra question,
where I ask each guest to nominate someonefor the next season of the show. And this
is how each interview represents a connectivetile which builds out into a Mosaic of China.
The podcast has also been designed to include avisual element, so please follow the images on
(01:14):
social media, or head to mosaicofchina.com,where you can follow the transcript.
You’ll also find details there onhow to subscribe to the PREMIUM
version of the show, which has an extra10-15 minutes of content per episode.
And if you want to watch the video version of theshow - which combines the audio with the images,
(01:34):
and the words from the transcript - thenplease head to the version on YouTube.
Now that you're caught up, let's get on withtoday's episode, which is one where we take
you on a journey of ideas. The journey startsin China, and then you’ll notice that we go on
a big detour to Nevada. But I promise that wecome back for a great finish in China again.
(01:56):
[Part 1]OF: Thank you very much for coming Francesca.
FV (02:01):
Thank you, Oscar, for having me. OF
Valsecci, right?FV: ‘Valsecci’.
OF (02:06):
Francesca Valsecci, This is where you've got a problem, actually. Because your name ‘Francesca’
is three syllables, ‘Valsecci’ is three syllables.It’s long, for a country where actually names are
very short.FV: Yeah.
So what did you go by in China? FV
Mmm. FV
Chinese name, which is 魏佛蘭 [Wèi Fúlán]OF: Oh, that's completely different.
FV (02:27):
That’s different, yeah. OF
A friend who used to live here for many years. And she gave me the name 佛蘭 [Fúlán],
which is the sound pronunciation for ‘Fran’.OF: Yeah.
And then there was my martial art teacher who chose 魏 [Wèi] which is like one of the
kingdoms. And I like it very much, becauseit has these components. There is the wood;
(02:48):
and then there is the woman; and then thereis 鬼 [guǐ] like the spirit. And I said
“This is perfect. I’ll take it all.”OF: That’s such a nice introduction,
because I think we're going to be talkingabout those elements in today’s chat.
In a way, yeah yeah. I think so. OF:
Well, we're running ahead of ourselves, becausethe first question I should be asking you is,
what object did you bring that in someway represents your life in China?
(03:11):
So this is the object. OF
It’s actually a very recent object. I found it a week ago, more or less. I was walking back home,
and there was a trash bin with a bunch of goods.I've been doing a lot of scavenging in old places
in China. I have a very small place, with a lotof stuff. And I saw this one. It’s an amulet. One
(03:34):
side, there is a Buddhist figure. I actuallypicked it up because I wanted to try to read
what was written there. And then I turned it,and there is a rooster on the other side of
the amulet. And I'm a rooster.OF: Aha. This came to you.
Yeah, we met in the street, which is pretty much serendipity. Like this concept,
that makes something happen. Especially when I wasunsure which object to bring. And so it was kind
(03:57):
of like “I should just take this one”.OF: I like it, because there's
something which is very ‘now’ about it.FV: Yeah, exactly. And the second reason
I was thinking about serendipity is because, oneof the things that I do is an informal underground
teahouse, which is called ‘Serendipitea’.OF: Oh, nice. Well, why don't we talk about
scavenging then? Because you said thisis part of how you have engaged with
(04:20):
living in China. What does that mean?FV: Well, I think everybody understands
that this is a place that is continuouslyunder transformation; and things are being
uprooted all the time; and so much matter andobjects are continuously discarded, or just
pass through many many lives. Things that have novalue, but they have ‘microscopical beauty’, as
I call it. And so I was just going exploring. Thisis something where you go inside, you take a walk,
(04:45):
and you see what's left in the ruins. One ofthe most remarkable things that we found is
photographs.OF: Ah.
And we did a project a few years ago with some friends, that was called ‘laoximen.club’.
We found some undeveloped film roles. And wehave a darkroom, so we developed the films,
and so we were the first people to seethe pictures printed out of those roles.
OF (05:07):
Oh. FV
an exhibition with those images. And then wealso tried to find where this was, if someone
could have recognised the places or the people.But we didn't really find that much. But that
was really, really a very cool thing to do.OF: Nice. Well maybe people who are listening
are trying to work out “OK, who the hell isFrancesca?” And maybe they're thinking “OK,
this must be some kind of artist”. Is that whatyou are? Like, how do you define who you are?
FV (05:31):
No. OF
I don’t think of myself as an artist. OF
I’m a professor. OF
At a university. And I'm not an artist, for sure.
OF (05:42):
So what do you teach? FV
And… Ah, that's really a wicked question.OF: Do you know why I know that it's a hard
question? Because I am thinking about theperson who nominated you from last season,
Alex Shoer. And I have the way that he introducedyou. So why don't we play that recording now.
FV (06:05):
OK. [Start of Audio Clip]
AS (06:07):
My suggestion, or recommendation, is going to be Francesca Valsecci. She's the epitome
of an environmental warrior. She's very muchfocused on using design research to essentially
reimagine our ecosystems, and consumption,and community development. And she's also
(06:27):
super active in Dragon Burn - she’s one of themain organisers - which is the Burning Man of
China. So be ready for that.[End of Audio Clip]
OF (06:34):
There's a lot going on there. FV
Alex said on my LinkedIn page.OF: Right?
FV (06:39):
It’s quite concise. OF
thinking today, like “OK, how do I even introduceFrancesca?” First of all, how do you know Alex?
Through the burn. Yeah. OF
back how many years now?FV: This year is number ten.
OF (06:54):
Oh wow. FV
Well, that came at the end of his introduction. Let's talk
first of all about what he said about yourprofessorship. So what the hell is that?
Design, but also ecology? How do you define it?FV: Yeah, I think for me it's more like, how do
you interface people - like citizens or community- with the sustainability concept. And more
(07:15):
recently, with the ecological concept. So designhas been like a consumeristic drive for decades.
Mmm. FV
that. My role in the school - and in my research- is to try and show how creativity can work for
a non-consumeristic way of producing things.OF: Oh. That's so interesting, because you're
(07:37):
right. When I think of design, I think of makingstuff. What you're trying to say is “No, design
is actually something which is not consumerist”.FV: Yeah. I mean it’s not me, there is a bunch
of people doing that. You can still createthings, but it's not that you necessarily have
to sell them. Or they don't have necessarilyto be inside of a consumerist space. I think
(07:57):
we have enough stuff to live with. They couldbecome a product, somehow. Like, I don't know,
one student, she made a sport jacket that canproduce electricity by bacteria that lives in
a cell inside of the wearable.OF: Oh, OK.
FV (08:10):
OK. So you can still make a product that has a function and can be used in a
context. But thinking about which is yoursource and which is your output. When they
have to make a decision about where tostart from, maybe they can start from a
different angle.OF: Mmm.
And that's the point. Then it's up to them, you know.
OF (08:28):
Yes. FV
they meet over five years of studying.OF: Yes. So how did you get from Italy
to here, what’s that story?FV: The trigger, right? So I was
depressed and I wanted to leave.OF: Leave Italy, right?
FV (08:44):
Yeah, I wanted to leave Italy. I had no idea where to go. It was Christmas Eve, and I was home
checking on this list of unread messages. And thenthere was this application for a post-doc project
in China. I said “OK, I can do something.” ThenI checked the deadline. The deadline was 1st of
January, documents on printed format, arriving inBeijing. And that was tricky, because Christmas
(09:05):
Eve in Europe means nothing is open. And that'swhen my brain got a kick, and said “OK, this is
the call. This must happen. I have to try.” So Ihad a phone call to China saying “Listen, there
is this thing. I'm going to write a proposal, Ineed a letter.” And he said “No problem, you will
have it in one hour.” And then I went to the UPSoffice and convinced them to open the office for
(09:28):
me on the 26th. Because I had to send the parcelat the latest on the 26th. I spent Christmas
writing the proposal, all of this. Which was nota very great proposal, but still was enough to
move myself through the process. And then inFebruary I was in Brussels for the examination
at the European Commission. On the same weekendas the Icelandic volcano eruption, so we were
(09:49):
all stuck in Brussels, treated by the EU. That wasgreat. And then in June I was on a plane to China.
Beijing first for almost a year. And then theproject that I wrote, there was an existing design
and innovation project on 崇明 [Chóngmíng] Island.OF: 崇明 [Chóngmíng]. OK, that's the
island which is within Shanghai city.FV: Yeah, it's kind of 80-90 kilometres long.
OF (10:11):
Yes. FV
it's really occupies a big part. The quality ofa project that you write in two days cannot be
very high. But regardless, it moved me there. Andit moved me there for two years, to coordinate a
group of people that was studying what was goingon. And I was curating more the agricultural
part. So, how you can support the transitionto organic agriculture, these kinds of things.
(10:35):
Yes. You’re actually reminding me of a conversation I had in Season 02 with Douglas TSE.
He also actually did some work in agriculture on崇明 [Chóngmíng] Island, and now he is a businessman
on an island off the coast of 宁波 [Níngbō]. Didyou know Douglon, did you ever cross paths?
FV (10:51):
No, I don't think so. Maybe I should. OF
he was on 崇明 [Chóngmíng]. Because, I'venever been there. It's something which I
keep hearing about. And they're going to makethe metro to go out there now, aren't they?
Which is a great idea, because the bridge is really bad.
OF (11:07):
Do you still go to 崇明 [Chóngmíng] Island now then?
FV (11:09):
Yeah, sometimes. Yeah. OF
any dreams to live out there?FV: I wouldn't live there again.
I would maybe go to other rural areas. Chinahas a lot of amazing countryside areas, so…
OF (11:22):
Yeah. Well all of this is making me think “Yes, it’s not a surprise that someone like
you would be drawn to something like Burning Man”.Again, just like I haven't been to 崇明 [Chóngmíng]
Island, I haven't been to Burning Man. ButI have an idea about what Burning Man is.
So why don't you tell me how you got intoBurning Man, and maybe describe what it is.
FV (11:41):
Back in the 90s, we were a group of friends with many different underground experiences at
the time, looking at the experience of creating acity in one week, and dismantling the city in one
week. That's what it is.OF: Mmm.
So there is a component of festival in terms of music, there is a component of festival in
(12:02):
terms of arts, but the thing that it is, is theexperience of building a city out of a flat land
in a desert, and you dismantle it together leavinga flat land in the desert. And I mean a ‘city’.
Because when it started it was very small, but nowit consists of 70,000 people. So 70,000 - for a
lot of places in the world - is a city.OF: Yeah.
There are roads; there is a traffic department; there is someone taking care
(12:27):
of infrastructure; there are restaurants; thereis a cinema. One component of the city is that
the community aggregates around fire. So whatmakes Burning Man ‘Burning Man’ is that there
is a sculpture - a structure - that is burned downon the last day. There are many burns, but that's
the biggest one. I think a lot of Chinese peopleknow about Burning Man, because there has been a
(12:50):
mainstream explosion in recent years. But I thinknot everybody understands the way of making a city
is based on several principles. And if you takeout this part, then you're doing something that
could still be very cool, but different.OF: Right, so what are those principles?
There are 10 principles that inspire how the community work. And some of them are extremely
(13:12):
necessary for the being of the city itself. Like‘Leave No Trace'. I always went earlier to build,
and stayed later to dismantle, and I was in theLeave No Trace Team for many years. And what we
do is like we’re sweeping the desert. So imagineyou're in the desert with very very fine sand,
and every single centimetre of the desert is sweptwith brooms in order to get every single piece
(13:34):
of plastic that is left there. There are peoplestaying for weeks to do this work, and there is
infrared to look at what is the amount left over.OF: Really?
And this is the way in which Burning Man gets the permit with the Bureau of Land
Management in the United States. But also it’sthe way in which the community self-regulates.
So if you have a red flag - it means that foreach square metre of camp, you had more than,
(13:58):
I don't remember, like, two cubic centimetresof trash - you don't get placed the next year.
OF (14:03):
Oh. OK, it’s quite rigorous. So you'd be the person who, if you do
see too much trash, you would put the red flag up.FV: I'm the person that is going around collecting
the trash, more than putting up the red flag.OF: Yeah. And you're talking about really
micro-plastics, when it comes down to it.FV: I'm talking about a
sparkle of your shiny jacket.OF: Wow. Wow wow wow. That must be
(14:24):
quite something when you've been in this place,there are 60,000 people, and then you are still
there later when it is literally back to nothing.FV: Yeah, it's gorgeous. These are experiences
with a high level of participation. Sothey make it scale up to the next level.
Yes. Rather than just come in, fly in, enjoy, then leave. No.
FV (14:42):
I mean, you can do that. There is a lot of people that just… we use the phrase ‘plug in’,
right? You arrive, you plug in…OF: Ah.
But you're missing the point. OF
So tell me about another principle.FV: Burning Man is a place where there is no
currency. You cannot buy things.OF: Aha.
You don't buy anything, one of the principles is de-commodification.
OF (15:02):
De-commodification. FV
Immediacy. FV
it's immediacy, you know. Like being presentto what is happening in that specific moment.
Yes. FV
check what is there.” You know, it’s not becauseyou are in a planning mode, that “I have to go
exploring a place. And so what's the criteriathat I choose that I…" You’re just there, and you
(15:23):
follow the trigger of looking inside of that door.OF: Yes, I'm just trying to relate this to my
life. Because I think I'm not an over-planner.But I am a planner. You know, when you're talking
about scavenging before, I was like “OK, I'mgonna set aside two hours for scavenging.” Like,
no, your point is, you're just living your normalday, and then “Oh!” You’ll just go with the flow.
FV (15:42):
Yeah. OF
how did these principles come out in the festival?FV: Gifting. Gifting is another principle. So the
city is more or less organised in camps. Andeach of them has an offering, something that
they bring to Burning Man to experience.OF: Ah. So each camp would have their own
kind of installation, or whatever it might be.FV: It could be anything. Like, it could really be
(16:05):
a variety of things. Some of them are very simple,some of them more sophisticated. It could be,
like, someone that does a bowl of fortunecookies, you know. And then you’re walking
to your music concert that you have plannedon your schedule for Burning Man. And then
there is someone that stops you and says “Hey,you’re beautiful, do you want a fortune cookie?"
OF (16:23):
Right. FV
get a fortune cookie. And this fortune cookie iswhat makes your day diverge to another direction.
Yes. FV
triggering of the mind.OF: Yes.
FV (16:30):
And so you wouldn't say "No, I won't take it because I'm going to the concert,”
you know. You can still say ‘No’. But it'snot because there is a reason. It's just this
happened, this crossed experience.OF: Yes.
And it could be anything. The logistics become easier over time, right? Because the
first time that you do it, you're like “Idon't know how to do this”, but then after
that you do it for a while, then no problem.OF: Yes. And as you're saying that, this is
(16:52):
also where maybe the wonder of it might decrease,because you're just a little bit more practised.
No, no. This is, I think, what makes it really amazing. The more you are engaged, the
more you're actually ready to discover things thatare incredible. The wonder is absolutely infinite.
OF (17:11):
Yes. FV
it's very subjective. For me, what I like tosay is that you can apply the same principles
to your daily life. I'm very comfortable insaying this, because that's the way I do.
Got it. Well, all of this is a prelude to asking you about how you
have translated this into what happens herein China, which Alex kindly introduced as
(17:33):
the Dragon Burn? Is that what he said?FV: Yes.
So let's talk about the Dragon Burn in China. What
is your role in the Dragon Burn, first of all?FV: Well, first I have to mention that Burning
Man has a community of Regionals. So there aremany events all around the world that happen,
inspired by the principle of Burning Man.So you go through an assessment process that
(17:55):
involves the headquarters of Burning Man, in termsof what do you do, and there are certain practices
that you have to follow.OF: Yes.
FV (18:01):
You can do a Burning Man inspired event, whatever you want. And there are also many
unofficial burn-like kinds of events around.But you can also be an officially recognised
regional Burning Man event. Which doesn't giveyou any benefits in fact, it's just like a matter
of what's the process that the community isfollowing. And there was this friend that had
(18:22):
been living here for many years, he had this dreamand interest to try to build a community of people
that would make a burner event possible in thiscountry. And so a few people started to meet,
and then we started to say “OK, what do weneed? We need the land, we need to find the
place”. So we started to go site checking;we started to do all of the things that make
you throw up a festival kind of event - like athree-day event - and the first time was 2013.
OF (18:46):
OK. And you're saying ‘We’. So basically you just did everything communally? Or did you have
specific tasks that you did individually?FV: My contribution has changed over the
years. At the time the team was small, andthe first event was also relatively small.
And the goal was to have something that couldbe burned as an effigy at the end of the event,
(19:06):
and then having a gate in place. Having this ideaof like the ‘welcome home’ kind of experience.
Aha. FV
you are participating in building these things.And this was in June, and I broke my leg in April,
so my first burn was in crutches.OF: Oh yes.
FV (19:21):
And it was remarkable. OF
Where did you find the land?FV: The land was so beautiful.
It was in 苏州 [Sūzhōu] Lake - it was a littleisland inside of the lake - and it was really a
majestic location. And we really wanted to keepit, but then the second year when we went back
for the site check, there was a hotel beingbuilt on the campground, so we had to move.
OF (19:44):
Oh god. So people bring their tents… FV
their food; and there was a stage, like kindof a music area; then there was a place where
the effigy was built and burnt. Then there were afew art installations there that people brought.
Like the gifts, right? FV
ten hammocks and make a situation where there wasa ‘Hammockville’. And then the community at the
(20:06):
time was really small, and so we kind of knew eachother. Over the years, one of the things that I do
is building ‘Serendipitea’…OF: There you go.
FV (20:13):
…Which is much more than a teahouse of course, but…
OF (20:15):
Oh hang on then. What is it? FV
have a serendipitous encounter. So…OF: Nice.
FV (20:23):
I provide the teahouse, I build the teahouse, it’s usually a very beautiful
and comfortable space. Every year is different. Somaybe you can find some things that can be done,
and explore with the people that are there.OF: Right. And that was in later years. So let's
fast forward then. When it was at its height,can you explain what the Dragon Burn looked like?
(20:44):
Every time is a ‘height’ because it's different. But let's say there was a year in 2019,
the number of people were 800.OF: 800
The venue was in a forest in 安吉 [Ānjí] County. You walk around, and even though you
have been organising the backstage and thelogistics very carefully - I was one of the
(21:05):
people who laid the two kilometres of electriccable for electricity - everything that you see,
you didn't know it would be there.OF: Mmm.
You have no idea that someone was bringing that thing. You knew about the temple;
you knew about the effigy; you knew aboutthe logistically organised thing. But you
have no idea about what people were bringing.OF: Yes. You create the idea, you create the
(21:25):
space, but then what happens later iscompletely out of your control, right?
Yeah. And that's where you are really at the burn.
OF (21:30):
Yeah. FV
around trying to see what is the next thing, youare being surprised or engaged by things that are
completely strange, unique and surprising.OF: And then do you use the same
principle of ‘Leave No Trace’?FV: Yes. Dragon Burn is an official regional
event. So the idea is that you can still applythe same principles as much as you can, or want.
‘Leave No Trace’ is a great example because howcan you apply a principle of ‘Leave No Trace’ from
(21:57):
a desert where you collect every micro-plastic, toa place where trash is money for a lot of people
who are doing trash collecting by themselves?You don't want to cut them out of their work,
just because you have an idealistic principle ofLeave No Trace. So you are transforming this into,
like, 'What is the footprint that you areleaving?’ Or how can you organise your trash,
so then they’re collecting.OF: Yeah.
FV (22:18):
Like, you're still applying your ‘Leave No Trace’, but you leave the possibility to them to
exploit the result of this process in a kind way.OF: Yeah.
For the people who are participating, they do understand the principle of
collective behaviour, and that's totally fine.OF: Yeah. I mean, this ‘collective' idea,
that is quite Chinese. I think peoplein China are more collectively minded,
(22:40):
right? What are the parts that don't fitso well in Chinese culture? Are there parts
where you feel like “Oh, this is not as easyto impart in China than it would be elsewhere”?
Yeah, ‘Leave No Trace’ and de-commodification are challenging because of the way in which the
context is made.OF: Yeah.
People are really entangled with their phone life, and the fact that you are always on your
(23:00):
phone, or that you carry your phone with you.And then there is also another element that is
very important. It’s not a principle, but forsome people it’s considered the 11th principle,
for some people it’s considered the glue betweenthe principles, which is consent. You want to make
sure that people are in the same place.OF: Yes.
And so like, for example, at Burning Man if you're taking a photo of someone else, you ask.
OF (23:23):
Ah. Yeah. FV
you're already entering into interactionmoment, and so you are already outside of
your taking-photo kind of space. Which hereis of course challenging, because people are
used to taking pictures even before realising theway that you behave. And Dragon Burn, as a loose
community of people, has the goal to make culturalconnection in an ‘aware’ way. And so that's what
(23:49):
are the important things to cultivate.OF: What is the name in Chinese? It
must be 龙 [Lóng]…FV: 龙焰 [Lóngyàn].
龙焰 [Lóngyàn]. FV
I think. The character is like the flame.OF: Nice. How has it been for you to not
have these outlets? Has that been tough?FV: Yeah, there are other things that
didn't happen over the years, so they happen indifferent ways, or with certain difficulties.
(24:13):
There was one festival that was cancelledthe day before opening the gate.
Ah. FV
a little bit… So it’s been hard, the last twoyears have been hard. And I'm used to going to
several regionals around the world, relativelyregularly. So the ‘going home’ feeling is very
real. There are many homes, and there aremany families to which everybody can belong,
and that's one of them. So it’s a missing point.OF: Well, I want to end this conversation on a
(24:38):
note of positivity. Because I'm still lookingat your object, which is this lucky Buddha with
the lucky rooster on the back. And it doestypify that you do live your life in this
‘Dragon Burn’ way. In the way that you work; inthe way that you impart this to your students;
in the way that you are - with immediacy - pickingup these little things on your scavenger hunts;
in the way that you have just talked about yourlife today. So I think you are embodying the
(25:04):
spirit of those ten principles.FV: Yeah, I’ll try my best.
Good. FV
I'm going to try and embody some of them myself.
Thank you so much, Francesca.FV: Thank you.
We will go on to Part 2. FV
[Part 2]OF:
So the 10 questions, Francesca. Question1, which comes from Shanghai Daily:
(25:27):
What is your favourite China-related fact?FV: OK, so the China-related fact is that when you
pay your taxes at the end of the year, even as aforeigner, you can get a bonus - like, you have a
deduction on your taxes - because of your parents.You get a deduction for each of the living parents
(25:47):
that you have above 60 years of age.OF: Really.
FV (25:50):
Yeah, yeah. The lady at the Tax Office asked me “What about your parents?” “Like,
what do you mean?” And then I just said “Theydon't live here." “It doesn't matter. You have
them. They’re your parents.”OF: Yeah, yeah. Why haven't
I heard that before? That's awesome.
Next question, which comes from Rosetta Stone (26:04):
Do you have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?
FV (26:09):
Yes I do. OF
This was an easy one, it was kind of straight on my mind, and the sentence
is 读万卷书，行万里路 [Dú wànjuǎn shū, xíng wànlǐ lù].OF: Say it again.
读万卷书，行万里路 [Dú wànjuǎn shū, xíng wànlǐ lù]. OF:
No I don’t know it, go on.FV: So it's something about reading thousands
of books, or walking thousands of miles.OF: Ah, I’ve heard it before.
(26:33):
And there are different interpretations. Like a kind of relationship between the
learning and the practising, like how you studyintellectually and what do you practice? There
is also a more kind of trivial version,which is like ‘read more and walk more’,
which I find very appropriate. And the reason whyI like this sentence is because it's connected
to a very specific moment, when someoneshared this sentence to me, saying “Oh,
(26:56):
you are this kind of person”.OF: Yeah.
And it was a very cool moment of friendship with a Chinese friend. And
so I think I want to share it, yeah.OF: I like it. You've inspired me now,
I'll remember this. Next one, whichcomes from naked Retreats: What is your
favourite destination within China?FV: This was really difficult,
so I picked a romantic one.OF: Is that because you're here with me,
(27:19):
Francesca?FV: Yeah.
So I will bring you to 重庆 [Chóngqìng].OF: Oh 重庆 [Chóngqìng]! That’s romantic?
Well no, it’s romantic because in 重庆 [Chóngqìng] there are the memories of the
first time I was there in 2004. I got off a busafter many hours, and we were in front of five
(27:39):
layers of highways…OF: Yes.
Like, a cyberpunk structure. I was like “Wow, this is great”. I'm a city lover. And before then
my favourite city was Athens in Greece, andnow 重庆 [Chóngqìng] is kind of like the same.
You can see the turn of the river…OF: I was gonna say that, yeah.
I navigated the river a few times in my life. And there is that specific spot on the bank,
(28:04):
where even though everything around that isconstructed, you can actually go there and
touch the water of the river.OF: Yes.
And that's incredible. I really have a strong legacy with that place.
OF (28:13):
It’s funny because this is the third season of this show. And no-one’s mentioned anything
about 重庆 [Chóngqìng]. Until this season,where suddenly the world is converging on 重庆
[Chóngqìng]. And this is where you were the mostItalian, because your hands were waving in the
air about all these structures flying. Everythingis so mountainous, right? And so to build a road,
(28:35):
as you say, you've got to build these roadson top of roads and all these layers. It's
really fascinating to see that, isn't it?FV: Yeah, also the only place in China with
no bicycle.OF: Ah.
FV (28:45):
That's why I said it’s romantic. I have this very strong emotion from the first
time I was there. And every time this is reallybubbling in my heart. Yeah, it's really strong.
OF (28:55):
Nice. Next question, if you left China, what would you miss the most,
and what would you miss the least.FV: Well, the thing I will miss the most: the
random conversations with strangers. The fact thatyou walk out into the street, and for some reason
your start talking about, I don’t know, philosophyor literature or soccer or playing cards or KTV
(29:16):
with anybody. From the guy who you're buyingyour dumpling from, or from the taxi driver, or
whoever. There is always a conversation starting.This is the way in which I study Chinese.
Yes, yes. FV
Yes. In groups, sometimes strangers in China can be very tough. You know,
they will just run over you, they will not waitfor you, they will push into a lift when you're
(29:39):
coming out. All that kind of stuff is true. Butthen individually sometimes the opposite is true,
with strangers. And they will come up to you, andengage with you. Like “What?" And that's the best
part about living in a place like this.FV: Yeah, and I'm one of the people who
starts the conversation.OF: Oh you start it!
FV (29:52):
Oh yeah, yeah. OF
The fact that you can go and say “Oh, nice haircut”, you know. Like,
I do it. And in Italy it would be consideredjust mad or like kind of harassment but here
it’s just like… iI really really love it.OF: This is where I don't know if it's a China
thing, or if it's just a being a foreigner thing.And maybe they’re like "Because she's Italian,
(30:12):
maybe I'll allow her.” You don't know, right?FV: I have observed enough people to see that
strangers talk by themselves as well. Youcould say “Well, mind your business” you
know. But at the same time it's very delicateand so evanescent. It’s so easily disappearing,
that who cares, you know?OF: Yes.
It’s like yes, we are still on the same planet, breathing the same air, so why not?
OF (30:35):
Yes. This is a bit like Burning Man. This is a bit like, it’s in the moment, and then it's gone.
That was a piece of art in your interaction.FV: Maybe, maybe. I see what you mean.
Maybe, maybe.OF:
What about the thing that you'd missed the least?FV: I don't like people who complain about China
all the time.OF: Mmm.
FV (30:52):
Just being here, I’m really a little bit tired of that. Everybody can be discontent, that's fine.
OF (30:57):
Yeah. FV
ways to express your discontent.OF: Yeah.
FV (31:00):
And I don't think that there is a duty to be positive, but we could be a little
bit more humble, you know. And find theappropriate space for expressing concerns.
OF (31:10):
There you go. Next question, is there anything that still surprises you about life in China?
FV (31:17):
Yes, that's what I call the ‘grey zone’. OF
It’s the concept that impossible things are possible. And nothing is really determined. There
is always a way, there are many degrees ofseparation between reality and unreality,
possibility and impossibility. You can see it inevery aspect of life, for the good, for the bad.
(31:41):
But it's a very unique feature. And I keep beingsurprised by the way in which it can manifest.
OF (31:47):
Mmm. Can you think of one example? FV
making sure with the driver that the bus isarriving at the South Station and not at the
North Station. And “Yes, of course it's arrivingat the South Station.” And then you arrive at
the North Station, but he arranges a guy thatis going to drive you to the South Station,
you know. And then you're angry at him becauseyou are in the wrong place, and he told you the
(32:08):
other thing. But at the same time, how can you beangry with someone who's organising a lift for you
to the place where you want to go? This was in武汉 Wǔhàn back in the day, but it’s still nice.
Nice. Yeah. Next question, which comes from SmartShanghai
go out, to eat or drink or hang out?FV: Can I mention a place that
(32:28):
doesn't exist any more?OF: Oh! Let’s time travel, sure.
FV (32:31):
My favourite place for sure is Shelter. OF
Like, that was like home. OF
It was an underground place, also an extremely vibrant, electronic techno scene.
Like, musically one of the very sophisticatedplaces for music culture. I'm not nostalgic,
I think it was just really a very good place.OF: Next question, what is the best or worst
(32:55):
purchase you’ve made in China?FV: It was something I ordered
from Beijing. I asked a friend to bring it to me,they’re very hard to find here. It’s one of these
very thick coats that they use to cover the doorsin Beijing restaurants. Made with this green,
military, very hard fabric. It’s like awindshield for places without the door.
OF (33:15):
Yes. FV
open to the garden. And I’ve had one of these for12 years in my place. And it allows me to be able
to cook in the freezing winter, with no problem.OF: Wow. Why is it so hard to find?
FV (33:29):
Because it's not really used here. In Beijing it’s used on top of the door. So when you open the
door, there is this kind of transition wherethe freezing air is not coming in. But here
the winter is not that cold, so it doesn't reallyhave the function of being a windshield. But for
someone that doesn't have a door in the house…OF: …That’s useful. We haven't talked about how
(33:50):
long you actually have been in China. Howlong ago was it that you were in Beijing?
It was early 2010. OF
Hahaha. OK, so the first one is like a satanic bunch of weirdo people in a circle, hand in hand
and jumping around a star or something.OF: Yes.
So it's this feeling of community. OF
(34:14):
Yeah. OF
you use with your Dragon Burn crowd?FV: It’s more related to something that
reminds me of friendships, so…OF: Right.
So it would be more connected to a Christmas dinner than a Dragon Burn crowd.
OF (34:24):
Yes. FV:
And then this one, there is a huge fieldof grassland with, like, this hole in the
middle. And everybody is just running to thehole and jumping into the hole. It’s completely
nonsensical and meaningful in any situation whereyou want to leave people with this sense of like,
“Wait, what just happened?”OF: "What does she mean?”
FV (34:43):
Yeah. It's OK. That's what I mean, you know? OF
going to start using.FV: OK.
OF (34:49):
Perhaps on the daily. FV:
OK.OF: Let’s move on. Next
question, what is your go-to song to sing at KTV?FV: Well, it’s a song called 海阔天空 [Hǎikuòtiānkōng]
by Beyond, which means like ‘Under a Vast Sky’,I don't exactly know the translation. And Beyond
(35:09):
is a Hong Kong rock band from the 80s, like1980-something. And they're just great. I mean,
it's pop rock, but at the same time they havethese guitar riffs that are amazing. And they sing
in Cantonese, which is the ultimate musical thing.OF: Well this is where I have to interrupt you,
because it's so difficult to sing inCantonese. How the hell do you do that?
FV (35:31):
I don't sing the Cantonese. OF
I pretend to sing the Cantonese thing, of course!
OF (35:36):
Yes. I don't know if I'll ever ever feel brave enough to sing a song in Cantonese.
FV (35:44):
Come to karaoke with me and then I’ll show the way.
OF (35:46):
What was it called again? FV
Yeah, and that's Mandarin. But do you have a clue how you say it in Cantonese?
FV (35:53):
No. No no no, of course not. OF
from JustPod, which is the studio where we'rein right now: What or who is your biggest
source of inspiration in China?FV: I think it’s my bicycle guy.
This guy has been fixing my bicycle for the past12 years. We don't talk that much, but I take him
(36:16):
as an example and a symbol of all of the peoplewho are making and tinkering their own things,
that you see walking in the street. And you seeeverybody doing adjustments, or some changes,
or some fixing, or some personalisation. The waythat he fixes the bicycle, he basically most of
the time uses a hammer.OF: Oh.
So it's the source of inspiration because you go there with a problem,
(36:39):
and then nowadays I'm going to say "Let's seehow he’s going to use the hammer this time.”
Will he smash a piece, or is he crackingsomething, or is he completely displacing
something else? But whatever the processis, he always gives me back a bicycle that
is working perfectly.OF: Wow.
I have a very old-school bike, and the surprise of the
process for me, it's a good metaphor.OF: Oh absolutely. Yeah, the realness of
(37:02):
that work, and the handicraft…FV: The handicraft.
OF (37:04):
…Of knowing how to use that one tool to fix something, which normally you would say “Oh I’ll
just throw it away and buy a new one”. But yeah,he can fix it. I love it. Thank you so much.
FV (37:13):
Thank you. OF
a lot of the stuff is going to bubble in my mindafter this conversation, things that I can change
in my life. Before you leave, let me ask you theimportant question. Which is, out of everyone
you know in China, who would you recommend that Iinterview in the next season of Mosaic of China?
I want you to invite Temple Rat. OF
(37:34):
Yes. OF
This is person. OF
It’s the artistic name of a musician and DJ. She's a friend of course, but she's my favourite
electronic and techno DJ in the country. Butshe's also an 二胡 [èrhú] musician and producer.
She's producing music with a lot of culturalinfluence on the stage and on the music part.
OF (38:00):
Oh, I love it. FV
think she's a great soul and a great musician.So I think it's a good piece of the Mosaic.
Woah, brilliant. I agree. And if you could ask Temple Rat one question,
what question would you ask her?FV: If you would be the
creator of a sound that already existed,
that you know, which sound would it be?OF: Oh. Nice. That is a very abstract question,
(38:26):
I appreciate that. Let's see how she tackles it.FV: Yeah.
Thank you so much Francesca. FV
[Outro]OF: There are lots of images
alongside today’s episode, so be sure to see whatDragon Burn looks like; to see Francesca’s object,
the rooster pendant; to see her favouriteWeChat stickers; and so on. If you’re on WeChat,
(38:50):
make sure to add me there so that I can inviteyou to one of the listeners groups. There are
about 2,000 of us there now, spread over a fewgroups, and I’ve shared a link there to the Dragon
Burn official WeChat account, in case you want tolearn more. And speaking of learning more, if you
were inspired by Francesca’s affinity with theChinese countryside, then you should definitely
(39:12):
listen to my chat with the rural architectChen Haoru, from Episode 05 of this season.
As with every main episode of the show, there’sa longer version of my interview with Francesca
available on the PREMIUM version, on Patreon orApple Podcasts Subscriptions internationally,
or on 爱发电 [Àifādiàn] in China. Justsearch for mosaicofchina on those
(39:35):
platforms. And here are some clips fromwhat you’ll find there from today’s show:
[Clip 1]FV: There’s a hotpot restaurant at Burning Man.
[Clip 2]FV: You
are in the middle of a desert that isvery harsh. And you have to survive.
[Clip 3]FV: I don't believe in
this distinction that design is for selling, andart is for some kind of intellectual exercise.
[Clip 4]FV: Your body completely disengages to
(39:56):
the relationship of payment transactions.[Clip 5]
Obviously you can tell people who are there for the burn, right?
FV (40:01):
Yeah. You're chatting on the highways. OF
[Clip 6]FV: I was in Laos for 72 hours. It was not a
very great idea, in terms of a lot of things.[Clip 7]
Coming back can be shaky sometimes, because… OF
holiday. I'm like “Eurgh,I’m back to my real life.”
[Clip 8]FV: When
people ask me “What do you do?” Isay “Like, in which part of the day?”
(40:21):
[Clip 9]FV: Apparently you are supposed to
visit your parents at least once a year.OF: Oh! By law.
By law. [End of Audio Clips]
OF (40:29):
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artwork by Denny Newell. Stick around after the
music for a catch-up conversation with the personwho referred Francesca to the Mosaic, the clean
energy entrepreneur Alex Shoer, from Season 02Episode 11. And I’ll see you back here next time.
(40:50):
[Catch-Up Interview]AS:
Hello hello?OF: Hi Alex.
AS (41:01):
Hello Oscar. Can you hear me OK? OF
A sight for sore eyes.AS: Likewise, likewise.
OF (41:10):
Well, when we first talked - last season, in Season 02 - you had been trapped outside of China
and you'd been making it work living outside,hopping between places on the east coast of the
States and the west. And then you settled on ahouseboat in Sausalito. You were still working
China times, and you had every intention ofmaking your way back. So where are you right now?
AS (41:32):
Yeah, great question. I am currently residing in Brooklyn, New York.
OF (41:37):
Ah. AS
last year and a half, or so. And I met someone newas well, and I brought her east from California. I
continue my China hours journey, I've primarilybeen running my business, Seeder Clean Energy,
which has actually picked up quite a bitwith the China energy crisis. You know,
coal prices and everything going very high, anda lot of renewed interest in renewable energy,
(42:01):
especially due to the increasedenforcement of the Chinese government
renewable energy targets and emission standards.OF: Well, just to remind people who didn't hear
your original episode, we mainly talked about theups and downs of the solar industry over the last
10 years. So drastic were those ups and downsthat we called it ‘the solarcoaster’. And it's
(42:24):
really nice to hear that we are now going upagain. Is it just solar? It sounded like you
are doing more than just solar these days.AS: That is correct. Mostly, we're looking
at general renewable energy procurement now. Sothat's typically solar or wind energy. Last year,
the Chinese government started allowinglarge corporations in China to actually
(42:44):
purchase renewable energy directly through thepower exchange. So that has been the thing that
honestly we've been waiting for, for 10 yearsor more. Finally, it's achievable to purchase
renewable energy at scale, and to have thecredible claim on that renewable energy.
It's only in certain provinces, and there arestill challenges with getting access to enough
renewable energy and negotiating the contracts,because they're very much like one-off bilateral
(43:09):
negotiations. But a lot of big corporates arenow finally ready to purchase renewable energy.
So we're looking at solar, wind, a little bit ofhydro, there's even some people who are interested
in nuclear. Pretty excited about that.OF: It's so interesting. And of course,
it all depends on the laws that get passed, andthe regulations. That really is what your story
was about. It was, of course, about the renewableenergy industry, but it was broadly more about
(43:33):
how China regulates anything. And we have seenhow it affected your business. We saw recently,
since you left, a similar thing happened inthe education industry. I couldn't help but
think about your story when those things werehappening in that industry. Sudden regulations
causing a different kind of rollercoaster. It wasone of those moments where I felt “Wow, maybe I am
(43:53):
finally starting to learn how China works”.AS: Yeah, that's such a good observation. I
didn't think anyone else picked up on that besidesme, but I'm glad that you did. It is one thing,
and then it's another. So yeah, it's a challengingsituation to be in, if you're running a business.
Yes. So anyone who wants to hear about that story, definitely go back and listen
to Alex's original episode, it will teachyou how industries can change overnight.
(44:18):
It's interesting, because… Well, your story stillis a China story. You know, that's where you were
able to turn your passion and your dream intoyour career. So you being in the States now,
this is the first time really that you'reworking in this industry in the States,
or in fact really anywhere with one foot outsideof China. What does that make you think about,
(44:39):
in terms of the differences? Does itmake you look back on your experiences
in China in a slightly different light?AS: Yeah, great question. It does make me
appreciate some things, especially the relativeease for me of doing business in the US. I mean,
just being able to speak a common languageand be able to read a contract with ease,
it does just change the dynamic of the paceat which I can make decisions. And a little
(45:04):
bit more confidence in terms of the frameworkI'm operating in. That's one aspect. But the
downside is that we do spend a lot of time withpolitics here, in terms of getting regulations,
and policies, and political debates, anddiscourse. And it's exhausting, especially if
you're trying to get me thing done. If you want tochange things, if you want to move things forward,
it's a very lengthy, very cumbersome process tomake change happen. And often that change only
(45:27):
lasts two or four years until the next cycle, ornext election. So I do really miss the long-term
planning of China in particular. There's somethingbeautiful about being able to create a 30 year
plan and work backwards in five year increments tothat plan. As someone who is very focused on the
future - and my whole passion and mission aroundclimate change and renewable energy - it is a much
(45:49):
easier framework to work within. And then alsojust the lack of manufacturing capacity in the
West, I think it's still…OF: Oh right, yeah.
AS (45:55):
It’s such a challenge. I mean, everything is waiting on a supply chain somewhere else. For
example, with solar and wind, a big challengeis just getting the products into the country.
And the ones that are made here tend to be moreexpensive. So pros and cons, that is for sure.
OF (46:11):
Yes. AS
with either side. I would love a hybrid.OF: Yes. It's fascinating. Could you
say one is a more predictable chaosthan the other? I don't know, right?
AS (46:22):
Yeah, I don't think so. It's hard to say. OF
No it isn’t. OF:
You being in Season 02, you are sandwiched betweenthe person who referred you from Season 01,
and the person who you referred to Season 03. Solet me start with your connection to Greg Nance
from Season 01. Have you been in touch with him?AS: We actually met face to face when he started
(46:48):
his run across the United States in Brooklyn,New York. I ran the first mile with him. And it
was great to send him off on his way. And he'srunning across the country to raise awareness
around mental health and addiction for youngpeople. That was the first time seeing him in
person. And it was such a good moment. Andit was great to see him doing his thing,
and hitting his stride. No pun intended.OF: Ha. Your catch-up will of course be
(47:11):
tacked on to the end of the personwho you referred to Season 03,
which was our mutual friend Francesca. So howabout you and Francesca, have you been in touch?
Yes, we've been in touch, especially given our active roles in the Burning Man world. There
are a lot of overlapping communities. She issomeone who I think of when I need a smile.
(47:31):
She's got incredible energy. And she givesgreat hugs. So if you ever get the chance,
get a good hug from Francesca.OF: That's a nice way to wrap
this up. As well as saying congratulations, Iknow that when you mentioned you have come to
the east of the States with your partner, thatyou recently got engaged. So Mazel Tov to you.
(47:52):
Yes. Thank you very much. Yeah, life life goes on. It's kind of crazy how fast
time flies. I cannot believe how long I lived inShanghai, and I cannot believe how long I've been
gone from Shanghai. Both numbers shock me.OF: Yeah. Well it's great to see your face,
Alex. Thank you again for being a part of thisMosaic, and I look forward to keeping in touch.
Same here. Thank you so much for all you do. And I'm so glad this is continuing
(48:15):
on. It's been an amazing inspiration for mehearing all the awesome people. Keep it going!
[Trailer]FV: I don't sing the Cantonese.
OF (00:04):
You don’t? FV
to sing the Cantonese thing, of course!
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
It's been a short while, but we're finallyback with the second half of Season 03.
(00:25):
If you’re a new listener, welcome, andhere’s a quick recap of how the show works.
There are three parts to each interview. The firstpart is a straightforward two-way conversation,
which starts with the guest introducing an objectthat in some way describes their life in China.
In the second part, I ask every guest the same10 China-related questions, all on the theme of
(00:50):
their personal experiences, tastes and opinions.And the final part is just one extra question,
where I ask each guest to nominate someonefor the next season of the show. And this
is how each interview represents a connectivetile which builds out into a Mosaic of China.
The podcast has also been designed to include avisual element, so please follow the images on
(01:14):
social media, or head to mosaicofchina.com,where you can follow the transcript.
You’ll also find details there onhow to subscribe to the PREMIUM
version of the show, which has an extra10-15 minutes of content per episode.
And if you want to watch the video version of theshow - which combines the audio with the images,
(01:34):
and the words from the transcript - thenplease head to the version on YouTube.
Now that you're caught up, let's get on withtoday's episode, which is one where we take
you on a journey of ideas. The journey startsin China, and then you’ll notice that we go on
a big detour to Nevada. But I promise that wecome back for a great finish in China again.
(01:56):
[Part 1]OF: Thank you very much for coming Francesca.
FV (02:01):
Thank you, Oscar, for having me. OF
Valsecci, right?FV: ‘Valsecci’.
OF (02:06):
Francesca Valsecci, This is where you've got a problem, actually. Because your name ‘Francesca’
is three syllables, ‘Valsecci’ is three syllables.It’s long, for a country where actually names are
very short.FV: Yeah.
So what did you go by in China? FV
Mmm. FV
Chinese name, which is 魏佛蘭 [Wèi Fúlán]OF: Oh, that's completely different.
FV (02:27):
That’s different, yeah. OF
A friend who used to live here for many years. And she gave me the name 佛蘭 [Fúlán],
which is the sound pronunciation for ‘Fran’.OF: Yeah.
And then there was my martial art teacher who chose 魏 [Wèi] which is like one of the
kingdoms. And I like it very much, becauseit has these components. There is the wood;
(02:48):
and then there is the woman; and then thereis 鬼 [guǐ] like the spirit. And I said
“This is perfect. I’ll take it all.”OF: That’s such a nice introduction,
because I think we're going to be talkingabout those elements in today’s chat.
In a way, yeah yeah. I think so. OF:
Well, we're running ahead of ourselves, becausethe first question I should be asking you is,
what object did you bring that in someway represents your life in China?
(03:11):
So this is the object. OF
It’s actually a very recent object. I found it a week ago, more or less. I was walking back home,
and there was a trash bin with a bunch of goods.I've been doing a lot of scavenging in old places
in China. I have a very small place, with a lotof stuff. And I saw this one. It’s an amulet. One
(03:34):
side, there is a Buddhist figure. I actuallypicked it up because I wanted to try to read
what was written there. And then I turned it,and there is a rooster on the other side of
the amulet. And I'm a rooster.OF: Aha. This came to you.
Yeah, we met in the street, which is pretty much serendipity. Like this concept,
that makes something happen. Especially when I wasunsure which object to bring. And so it was kind
(03:57):
of like “I should just take this one”.OF: I like it, because there's
something which is very ‘now’ about it.FV: Yeah, exactly. And the second reason
I was thinking about serendipity is because, oneof the things that I do is an informal underground
teahouse, which is called ‘Serendipitea’.OF: Oh, nice. Well, why don't we talk about
scavenging then? Because you said thisis part of how you have engaged with
(04:20):
living in China. What does that mean?FV: Well, I think everybody understands
that this is a place that is continuouslyunder transformation; and things are being
uprooted all the time; and so much matter andobjects are continuously discarded, or just
pass through many many lives. Things that have novalue, but they have ‘microscopical beauty’, as
I call it. And so I was just going exploring. Thisis something where you go inside, you take a walk,
(04:45):
and you see what's left in the ruins. One ofthe most remarkable things that we found is
photographs.OF: Ah.
And we did a project a few years ago with some friends, that was called ‘laoximen.club’.
We found some undeveloped film roles. And wehave a darkroom, so we developed the films,
and so we were the first people to seethe pictures printed out of those roles.
OF (05:07):
Oh. FV
an exhibition with those images. And then wealso tried to find where this was, if someone
could have recognised the places or the people.But we didn't really find that much. But that
was really, really a very cool thing to do.OF: Nice. Well maybe people who are listening
are trying to work out “OK, who the hell isFrancesca?” And maybe they're thinking “OK,
this must be some kind of artist”. Is that whatyou are? Like, how do you define who you are?
FV (05:31):
No. OF
I don’t think of myself as an artist. OF
I’m a professor. OF
At a university. And I'm not an artist, for sure.
OF (05:42):
So what do you teach? FV
And… Ah, that's really a wicked question.OF: Do you know why I know that it's a hard
question? Because I am thinking about theperson who nominated you from last season,
Alex Shoer. And I have the way that he introducedyou. So why don't we play that recording now.
FV (06:05):
OK. [Start of Audio Clip]
AS (06:07):
My suggestion, or recommendation, is going to be Francesca Valsecci. She's the epitome
of an environmental warrior. She's very muchfocused on using design research to essentially
reimagine our ecosystems, and consumption,and community development. And she's also
(06:27):
super active in Dragon Burn - she’s one of themain organisers - which is the Burning Man of
China. So be ready for that.[End of Audio Clip]
OF (06:34):
There's a lot going on there. FV
Alex said on my LinkedIn page.OF: Right?
FV (06:39):
It’s quite concise. OF
thinking today, like “OK, how do I even introduceFrancesca?” First of all, how do you know Alex?
Through the burn. Yeah. OF
back how many years now?FV: This year is number ten.
OF (06:54):
Oh wow. FV
Well, that came at the end of his introduction. Let's talk
first of all about what he said about yourprofessorship. So what the hell is that?
Design, but also ecology? How do you define it?FV: Yeah, I think for me it's more like, how do
you interface people - like citizens or community- with the sustainability concept. And more
(07:15):
recently, with the ecological concept. So designhas been like a consumeristic drive for decades.
Mmm. FV
that. My role in the school - and in my research- is to try and show how creativity can work for
a non-consumeristic way of producing things.OF: Oh. That's so interesting, because you're
(07:37):
right. When I think of design, I think of makingstuff. What you're trying to say is “No, design
is actually something which is not consumerist”.FV: Yeah. I mean it’s not me, there is a bunch
of people doing that. You can still createthings, but it's not that you necessarily have
to sell them. Or they don't have necessarilyto be inside of a consumerist space. I think
(07:57):
we have enough stuff to live with. They couldbecome a product, somehow. Like, I don't know,
one student, she made a sport jacket that canproduce electricity by bacteria that lives in
a cell inside of the wearable.OF: Oh, OK.
FV (08:10):
OK. So you can still make a product that has a function and can be used in a
context. But thinking about which is yoursource and which is your output. When they
have to make a decision about where tostart from, maybe they can start from a
different angle.OF: Mmm.
And that's the point. Then it's up to them, you know.
OF (08:28):
Yes. FV
they meet over five years of studying.OF: Yes. So how did you get from Italy
to here, what’s that story?FV: The trigger, right? So I was
depressed and I wanted to leave.OF: Leave Italy, right?
FV (08:44):
Yeah, I wanted to leave Italy. I had no idea where to go. It was Christmas Eve, and I was home
checking on this list of unread messages. And thenthere was this application for a post-doc project
in China. I said “OK, I can do something.” ThenI checked the deadline. The deadline was 1st of
January, documents on printed format, arriving inBeijing. And that was tricky, because Christmas
(09:05):
Eve in Europe means nothing is open. And that'swhen my brain got a kick, and said “OK, this is
the call. This must happen. I have to try.” So Ihad a phone call to China saying “Listen, there
is this thing. I'm going to write a proposal, Ineed a letter.” And he said “No problem, you will
have it in one hour.” And then I went to the UPSoffice and convinced them to open the office for
(09:28):
me on the 26th. Because I had to send the parcelat the latest on the 26th. I spent Christmas
writing the proposal, all of this. Which was nota very great proposal, but still was enough to
move myself through the process. And then inFebruary I was in Brussels for the examination
at the European Commission. On the same weekendas the Icelandic volcano eruption, so we were
(09:49):
all stuck in Brussels, treated by the EU. That wasgreat. And then in June I was on a plane to China.
Beijing first for almost a year. And then theproject that I wrote, there was an existing design
and innovation project on 崇明 [Chóngmíng] Island.OF: 崇明 [Chóngmíng]. OK, that's the
island which is within Shanghai city.FV: Yeah, it's kind of 80-90 kilometres long.
OF (10:11):
Yes. FV
it's really occupies a big part. The quality ofa project that you write in two days cannot be
very high. But regardless, it moved me there. Andit moved me there for two years, to coordinate a
group of people that was studying what was goingon. And I was curating more the agricultural
part. So, how you can support the transitionto organic agriculture, these kinds of things.
(10:35):
Yes. You’re actually reminding me of a conversation I had in Season 02 with Douglas TSE.
He also actually did some work in agriculture on崇明 [Chóngmíng] Island, and now he is a businessman
on an island off the coast of 宁波 [Níngbō]. Didyou know Douglon, did you ever cross paths?
FV (10:51):
No, I don't think so. Maybe I should. OF
he was on 崇明 [Chóngmíng]. Because, I'venever been there. It's something which I
keep hearing about. And they're going to makethe metro to go out there now, aren't they?
Which is a great idea, because the bridge is really bad.
OF (11:07):
Do you still go to 崇明 [Chóngmíng] Island now then?
FV (11:09):
Yeah, sometimes. Yeah. OF
any dreams to live out there?FV: I wouldn't live there again.
I would maybe go to other rural areas. Chinahas a lot of amazing countryside areas, so…
OF (11:22):
Yeah. Well all of this is making me think “Yes, it’s not a surprise that someone like
you would be drawn to something like Burning Man”.Again, just like I haven't been to 崇明 [Chóngmíng]
Island, I haven't been to Burning Man. ButI have an idea about what Burning Man is.
So why don't you tell me how you got intoBurning Man, and maybe describe what it is.
FV (11:41):
Back in the 90s, we were a group of friends with many different underground experiences at
the time, looking at the experience of creating acity in one week, and dismantling the city in one
week. That's what it is.OF: Mmm.
So there is a component of festival in terms of music, there is a component of festival in
(12:02):
terms of arts, but the thing that it is, is theexperience of building a city out of a flat land
in a desert, and you dismantle it together leavinga flat land in the desert. And I mean a ‘city’.
Because when it started it was very small, but nowit consists of 70,000 people. So 70,000 - for a
lot of places in the world - is a city.OF: Yeah.
There are roads; there is a traffic department; there is someone taking care
(12:27):
of infrastructure; there are restaurants; thereis a cinema. One component of the city is that
the community aggregates around fire. So whatmakes Burning Man ‘Burning Man’ is that there
is a sculpture - a structure - that is burned downon the last day. There are many burns, but that's
the biggest one. I think a lot of Chinese peopleknow about Burning Man, because there has been a
(12:50):
mainstream explosion in recent years. But I thinknot everybody understands the way of making a city
is based on several principles. And if you takeout this part, then you're doing something that
could still be very cool, but different.OF: Right, so what are those principles?
There are 10 principles that inspire how the community work. And some of them are extremely
(13:12):
necessary for the being of the city itself. Like‘Leave No Trace'. I always went earlier to build,
and stayed later to dismantle, and I was in theLeave No Trace Team for many years. And what we
do is like we’re sweeping the desert. So imagineyou're in the desert with very very fine sand,
and every single centimetre of the desert is sweptwith brooms in order to get every single piece
(13:34):
of plastic that is left there. There are peoplestaying for weeks to do this work, and there is
infrared to look at what is the amount left over.OF: Really?
And this is the way in which Burning Man gets the permit with the Bureau of Land
Management in the United States. But also it’sthe way in which the community self-regulates.
So if you have a red flag - it means that foreach square metre of camp, you had more than,
(13:58):
I don't remember, like, two cubic centimetresof trash - you don't get placed the next year.
OF (14:03):
Oh. OK, it’s quite rigorous. So you'd be the person who, if you do
see too much trash, you would put the red flag up.FV: I'm the person that is going around collecting
the trash, more than putting up the red flag.OF: Yeah. And you're talking about really
micro-plastics, when it comes down to it.FV: I'm talking about a
sparkle of your shiny jacket.OF: Wow. Wow wow wow. That must be
(14:24):
quite something when you've been in this place,there are 60,000 people, and then you are still
there later when it is literally back to nothing.FV: Yeah, it's gorgeous. These are experiences
with a high level of participation. Sothey make it scale up to the next level.
Yes. Rather than just come in, fly in, enjoy, then leave. No.
FV (14:42):
I mean, you can do that. There is a lot of people that just… we use the phrase ‘plug in’,
right? You arrive, you plug in…OF: Ah.
But you're missing the point. OF
So tell me about another principle.FV: Burning Man is a place where there is no
currency. You cannot buy things.OF: Aha.
You don't buy anything, one of the principles is de-commodification.
OF (15:02):
De-commodification. FV
Immediacy. FV
it's immediacy, you know. Like being presentto what is happening in that specific moment.
Yes. FV
check what is there.” You know, it’s not becauseyou are in a planning mode, that “I have to go
exploring a place. And so what's the criteriathat I choose that I…" You’re just there, and you
(15:23):
follow the trigger of looking inside of that door.OF: Yes, I'm just trying to relate this to my
life. Because I think I'm not an over-planner.But I am a planner. You know, when you're talking
about scavenging before, I was like “OK, I'mgonna set aside two hours for scavenging.” Like,
no, your point is, you're just living your normalday, and then “Oh!” You’ll just go with the flow.
FV (15:42):
Yeah. OF
how did these principles come out in the festival?FV: Gifting. Gifting is another principle. So the
city is more or less organised in camps. Andeach of them has an offering, something that
they bring to Burning Man to experience.OF: Ah. So each camp would have their own
kind of installation, or whatever it might be.FV: It could be anything. Like, it could really be
(16:05):
a variety of things. Some of them are very simple,some of them more sophisticated. It could be,
like, someone that does a bowl of fortunecookies, you know. And then you’re walking
to your music concert that you have plannedon your schedule for Burning Man. And then
there is someone that stops you and says “Hey,you’re beautiful, do you want a fortune cookie?"
OF (16:23):
Right. FV
get a fortune cookie. And this fortune cookie iswhat makes your day diverge to another direction.
Yes. FV
triggering of the mind.OF: Yes.
FV (16:30):
And so you wouldn't say "No, I won't take it because I'm going to the concert,”
you know. You can still say ‘No’. But it'snot because there is a reason. It's just this
happened, this crossed experience.OF: Yes.
And it could be anything. The logistics become easier over time, right? Because the
first time that you do it, you're like “Idon't know how to do this”, but then after
that you do it for a while, then no problem.OF: Yes. And as you're saying that, this is
(16:52):
also where maybe the wonder of it might decrease,because you're just a little bit more practised.
No, no. This is, I think, what makes it really amazing. The more you are engaged, the
more you're actually ready to discover things thatare incredible. The wonder is absolutely infinite.
OF (17:11):
Yes. FV
it's very subjective. For me, what I like tosay is that you can apply the same principles
to your daily life. I'm very comfortable insaying this, because that's the way I do.
Got it. Well, all of this is a prelude to asking you about how you
have translated this into what happens herein China, which Alex kindly introduced as
(17:33):
the Dragon Burn? Is that what he said?FV: Yes.
So let's talk about the Dragon Burn in China. What
is your role in the Dragon Burn, first of all?FV: Well, first I have to mention that Burning
Man has a community of Regionals. So there aremany events all around the world that happen,
inspired by the principle of Burning Man.So you go through an assessment process that
(17:55):
involves the headquarters of Burning Man, in termsof what do you do, and there are certain practices
that you have to follow.OF: Yes.
FV (18:01):
You can do a Burning Man inspired event, whatever you want. And there are also many
unofficial burn-like kinds of events around.But you can also be an officially recognised
regional Burning Man event. Which doesn't giveyou any benefits in fact, it's just like a matter
of what's the process that the community isfollowing. And there was this friend that had
(18:22):
been living here for many years, he had this dreamand interest to try to build a community of people
that would make a burner event possible in thiscountry. And so a few people started to meet,
and then we started to say “OK, what do weneed? We need the land, we need to find the
place”. So we started to go site checking;we started to do all of the things that make
you throw up a festival kind of event - like athree-day event - and the first time was 2013.
OF (18:46):
OK. And you're saying ‘We’. So basically you just did everything communally? Or did you have
specific tasks that you did individually?FV: My contribution has changed over the
years. At the time the team was small, andthe first event was also relatively small.
And the goal was to have something that couldbe burned as an effigy at the end of the event,
(19:06):
and then having a gate in place. Having this ideaof like the ‘welcome home’ kind of experience.
Aha. FV
you are participating in building these things.And this was in June, and I broke my leg in April,
so my first burn was in crutches.OF: Oh yes.
FV (19:21):
And it was remarkable. OF
Where did you find the land?FV: The land was so beautiful.
It was in 苏州 [Sūzhōu] Lake - it was a littleisland inside of the lake - and it was really a
majestic location. And we really wanted to keepit, but then the second year when we went back
for the site check, there was a hotel beingbuilt on the campground, so we had to move.
OF (19:44):
Oh god. So people bring their tents… FV
their food; and there was a stage, like kindof a music area; then there was a place where
the effigy was built and burnt. Then there were afew art installations there that people brought.
Like the gifts, right? FV
ten hammocks and make a situation where there wasa ‘Hammockville’. And then the community at the
(20:06):
time was really small, and so we kind of knew eachother. Over the years, one of the things that I do
is building ‘Serendipitea’…OF: There you go.
FV (20:13):
…Which is much more than a teahouse of course, but…
OF (20:15):
Oh hang on then. What is it? FV
have a serendipitous encounter. So…OF: Nice.
FV (20:23):
I provide the teahouse, I build the teahouse, it’s usually a very beautiful
and comfortable space. Every year is different. Somaybe you can find some things that can be done,
and explore with the people that are there.OF: Right. And that was in later years. So let's
fast forward then. When it was at its height,can you explain what the Dragon Burn looked like?
(20:44):
Every time is a ‘height’ because it's different. But let's say there was a year in 2019,
the number of people were 800.OF: 800
The venue was in a forest in 安吉 [Ānjí] County. You walk around, and even though you
have been organising the backstage and thelogistics very carefully - I was one of the
(21:05):
people who laid the two kilometres of electriccable for electricity - everything that you see,
you didn't know it would be there.OF: Mmm.
You have no idea that someone was bringing that thing. You knew about the temple;
you knew about the effigy; you knew aboutthe logistically organised thing. But you
have no idea about what people were bringing.OF: Yes. You create the idea, you create the
(21:25):
space, but then what happens later iscompletely out of your control, right?
Yeah. And that's where you are really at the burn.
OF (21:30):
Yeah. FV
around trying to see what is the next thing, youare being surprised or engaged by things that are
completely strange, unique and surprising.OF: And then do you use the same
principle of ‘Leave No Trace’?FV: Yes. Dragon Burn is an official regional
event. So the idea is that you can still applythe same principles as much as you can, or want.
‘Leave No Trace’ is a great example because howcan you apply a principle of ‘Leave No Trace’ from
(21:57):
a desert where you collect every micro-plastic, toa place where trash is money for a lot of people
who are doing trash collecting by themselves?You don't want to cut them out of their work,
just because you have an idealistic principle ofLeave No Trace. So you are transforming this into,
like, 'What is the footprint that you areleaving?’ Or how can you organise your trash,
so then they’re collecting.OF: Yeah.
FV (22:18):
Like, you're still applying your ‘Leave No Trace’, but you leave the possibility to them to
exploit the result of this process in a kind way.OF: Yeah.
For the people who are participating, they do understand the principle of
collective behaviour, and that's totally fine.OF: Yeah. I mean, this ‘collective' idea,
that is quite Chinese. I think peoplein China are more collectively minded,
(22:40):
right? What are the parts that don't fitso well in Chinese culture? Are there parts
where you feel like “Oh, this is not as easyto impart in China than it would be elsewhere”?
Yeah, ‘Leave No Trace’ and de-commodification are challenging because of the way in which the
context is made.OF: Yeah.
People are really entangled with their phone life, and the fact that you are always on your
(23:00):
phone, or that you carry your phone with you.And then there is also another element that is
very important. It’s not a principle, but forsome people it’s considered the 11th principle,
for some people it’s considered the glue betweenthe principles, which is consent. You want to make
sure that people are in the same place.OF: Yes.
And so like, for example, at Burning Man if you're taking a photo of someone else, you ask.
OF (23:23):
Ah. Yeah. FV
you're already entering into interactionmoment, and so you are already outside of
your taking-photo kind of space. Which hereis of course challenging, because people are
used to taking pictures even before realising theway that you behave. And Dragon Burn, as a loose
community of people, has the goal to make culturalconnection in an ‘aware’ way. And so that's what
(23:49):
are the important things to cultivate.OF: What is the name in Chinese? It
must be 龙 [Lóng]…FV: 龙焰 [Lóngyàn].
龙焰 [Lóngyàn]. FV
I think. The character is like the flame.OF: Nice. How has it been for you to not
have these outlets? Has that been tough?FV: Yeah, there are other things that
didn't happen over the years, so they happen indifferent ways, or with certain difficulties.
(24:13):
There was one festival that was cancelledthe day before opening the gate.
Ah. FV
a little bit… So it’s been hard, the last twoyears have been hard. And I'm used to going to
several regionals around the world, relativelyregularly. So the ‘going home’ feeling is very
real. There are many homes, and there aremany families to which everybody can belong,
and that's one of them. So it’s a missing point.OF: Well, I want to end this conversation on a
(24:38):
note of positivity. Because I'm still lookingat your object, which is this lucky Buddha with
the lucky rooster on the back. And it doestypify that you do live your life in this
‘Dragon Burn’ way. In the way that you work; inthe way that you impart this to your students;
in the way that you are - with immediacy - pickingup these little things on your scavenger hunts;
in the way that you have just talked about yourlife today. So I think you are embodying the
(25:04):
spirit of those ten principles.FV: Yeah, I’ll try my best.
Good. FV
I'm going to try and embody some of them myself.
Thank you so much, Francesca.FV: Thank you.
We will go on to Part 2. FV
[Part 2]OF:
So the 10 questions, Francesca. Question1, which comes from Shanghai Daily:
(25:27):
What is your favourite China-related fact?FV: OK, so the China-related fact is that when you
pay your taxes at the end of the year, even as aforeigner, you can get a bonus - like, you have a
deduction on your taxes - because of your parents.You get a deduction for each of the living parents
(25:47):
that you have above 60 years of age.OF: Really.
FV (25:50):
Yeah, yeah. The lady at the Tax Office asked me “What about your parents?” “Like,
what do you mean?” And then I just said “Theydon't live here." “It doesn't matter. You have
them. They’re your parents.”OF: Yeah, yeah. Why haven't
I heard that before? That's awesome.
Next question, which comes from Rosetta Stone (26:04):
Do you have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?
FV (26:09):
Yes I do. OF
This was an easy one, it was kind of straight on my mind, and the sentence
is 读万卷书，行万里路 [Dú wànjuǎn shū, xíng wànlǐ lù].OF: Say it again.
读万卷书，行万里路 [Dú wànjuǎn shū, xíng wànlǐ lù]. OF:
No I don’t know it, go on.FV: So it's something about reading thousands
of books, or walking thousands of miles.OF: Ah, I’ve heard it before.
(26:33):
And there are different interpretations. Like a kind of relationship between the
learning and the practising, like how you studyintellectually and what do you practice? There
is also a more kind of trivial version,which is like ‘read more and walk more’,
which I find very appropriate. And the reason whyI like this sentence is because it's connected
to a very specific moment, when someoneshared this sentence to me, saying “Oh,
(26:56):
you are this kind of person”.OF: Yeah.
And it was a very cool moment of friendship with a Chinese friend. And
so I think I want to share it, yeah.OF: I like it. You've inspired me now,
I'll remember this. Next one, whichcomes from naked Retreats: What is your
favourite destination within China?FV: This was really difficult,
so I picked a romantic one.OF: Is that because you're here with me,
(27:19):
Francesca?FV: Yeah.
So I will bring you to 重庆 [Chóngqìng].OF: Oh 重庆 [Chóngqìng]! That’s romantic?
Well no, it’s romantic because in 重庆 [Chóngqìng] there are the memories of the
first time I was there in 2004. I got off a busafter many hours, and we were in front of five
(27:39):
layers of highways…OF: Yes.
Like, a cyberpunk structure. I was like “Wow, this is great”. I'm a city lover. And before then
my favourite city was Athens in Greece, andnow 重庆 [Chóngqìng] is kind of like the same.
You can see the turn of the river…OF: I was gonna say that, yeah.
I navigated the river a few times in my life. And there is that specific spot on the bank,
(28:04):
where even though everything around that isconstructed, you can actually go there and
touch the water of the river.OF: Yes.
And that's incredible. I really have a strong legacy with that place.
OF (28:13):
It’s funny because this is the third season of this show. And no-one’s mentioned anything
about 重庆 [Chóngqìng]. Until this season,where suddenly the world is converging on 重庆
[Chóngqìng]. And this is where you were the mostItalian, because your hands were waving in the
air about all these structures flying. Everythingis so mountainous, right? And so to build a road,
(28:35):
as you say, you've got to build these roadson top of roads and all these layers. It's
really fascinating to see that, isn't it?FV: Yeah, also the only place in China with
no bicycle.OF: Ah.
FV (28:45):
That's why I said it’s romantic. I have this very strong emotion from the first
time I was there. And every time this is reallybubbling in my heart. Yeah, it's really strong.
OF (28:55):
Nice. Next question, if you left China, what would you miss the most,
and what would you miss the least.FV: Well, the thing I will miss the most: the
random conversations with strangers. The fact thatyou walk out into the street, and for some reason
your start talking about, I don’t know, philosophyor literature or soccer or playing cards or KTV
(29:16):
with anybody. From the guy who you're buyingyour dumpling from, or from the taxi driver, or
whoever. There is always a conversation starting.This is the way in which I study Chinese.
Yes, yes. FV
Yes. In groups, sometimes strangers in China can be very tough. You know,
they will just run over you, they will not waitfor you, they will push into a lift when you're
(29:39):
coming out. All that kind of stuff is true. Butthen individually sometimes the opposite is true,
with strangers. And they will come up to you, andengage with you. Like “What?" And that's the best
part about living in a place like this.FV: Yeah, and I'm one of the people who
starts the conversation.OF: Oh you start it!
FV (29:52):
Oh yeah, yeah. OF
The fact that you can go and say “Oh, nice haircut”, you know. Like,
I do it. And in Italy it would be consideredjust mad or like kind of harassment but here
it’s just like… iI really really love it.OF: This is where I don't know if it's a China
thing, or if it's just a being a foreigner thing.And maybe they’re like "Because she's Italian,
(30:12):
maybe I'll allow her.” You don't know, right?FV: I have observed enough people to see that
strangers talk by themselves as well. Youcould say “Well, mind your business” you
know. But at the same time it's very delicateand so evanescent. It’s so easily disappearing,
that who cares, you know?OF: Yes.
It’s like yes, we are still on the same planet, breathing the same air, so why not?
OF (30:35):
Yes. This is a bit like Burning Man. This is a bit like, it’s in the moment, and then it's gone.
That was a piece of art in your interaction.FV: Maybe, maybe. I see what you mean.
Maybe, maybe.OF:
What about the thing that you'd missed the least?FV: I don't like people who complain about China
all the time.OF: Mmm.
FV (30:52):
Just being here, I’m really a little bit tired of that. Everybody can be discontent, that's fine.
OF (30:57):
Yeah. FV
ways to express your discontent.OF: Yeah.
FV (31:00):
And I don't think that there is a duty to be positive, but we could be a little
bit more humble, you know. And find theappropriate space for expressing concerns.
OF (31:10):
There you go. Next question, is there anything that still surprises you about life in China?
FV (31:17):
Yes, that's what I call the ‘grey zone’. OF
It’s the concept that impossible things are possible. And nothing is really determined. There
is always a way, there are many degrees ofseparation between reality and unreality,
possibility and impossibility. You can see it inevery aspect of life, for the good, for the bad.
(31:41):
But it's a very unique feature. And I keep beingsurprised by the way in which it can manifest.
OF (31:47):
Mmm. Can you think of one example? FV
making sure with the driver that the bus isarriving at the South Station and not at the
North Station. And “Yes, of course it's arrivingat the South Station.” And then you arrive at
the North Station, but he arranges a guy thatis going to drive you to the South Station,
you know. And then you're angry at him becauseyou are in the wrong place, and he told you the
(32:08):
other thing. But at the same time, how can you beangry with someone who's organising a lift for you
to the place where you want to go? This was in武汉 Wǔhàn back in the day, but it’s still nice.
Nice. Yeah. Next question, which comes from SmartShanghai
go out, to eat or drink or hang out?FV: Can I mention a place that
(32:28):
doesn't exist any more?OF: Oh! Let’s time travel, sure.
FV (32:31):
My favourite place for sure is Shelter. OF
Like, that was like home. OF
It was an underground place, also an extremely vibrant, electronic techno scene.
Like, musically one of the very sophisticatedplaces for music culture. I'm not nostalgic,
I think it was just really a very good place.OF: Next question, what is the best or worst
(32:55):
purchase you’ve made in China?FV: It was something I ordered
from Beijing. I asked a friend to bring it to me,they’re very hard to find here. It’s one of these
very thick coats that they use to cover the doorsin Beijing restaurants. Made with this green,
military, very hard fabric. It’s like awindshield for places without the door.
OF (33:15):
Yes. FV
open to the garden. And I’ve had one of these for12 years in my place. And it allows me to be able
to cook in the freezing winter, with no problem.OF: Wow. Why is it so hard to find?
FV (33:29):
Because it's not really used here. In Beijing it’s used on top of the door. So when you open the
door, there is this kind of transition wherethe freezing air is not coming in. But here
the winter is not that cold, so it doesn't reallyhave the function of being a windshield. But for
someone that doesn't have a door in the house…OF: …That’s useful. We haven't talked about how
(33:50):
long you actually have been in China. Howlong ago was it that you were in Beijing?
It was early 2010. OF
Hahaha. OK, so the first one is like a satanic bunch of weirdo people in a circle, hand in hand
and jumping around a star or something.OF: Yes.
So it's this feeling of community. OF
(34:14):
Yeah. OF
you use with your Dragon Burn crowd?FV: It’s more related to something that
reminds me of friendships, so…OF: Right.
So it would be more connected to a Christmas dinner than a Dragon Burn crowd.
OF (34:24):
Yes. FV:
And then this one, there is a huge fieldof grassland with, like, this hole in the
middle. And everybody is just running to thehole and jumping into the hole. It’s completely
nonsensical and meaningful in any situation whereyou want to leave people with this sense of like,
“Wait, what just happened?”OF: "What does she mean?”
FV (34:43):
Yeah. It's OK. That's what I mean, you know? OF
going to start using.FV: OK.
OF (34:49):
Perhaps on the daily. FV:
OK.OF: Let’s move on. Next
question, what is your go-to song to sing at KTV?FV: Well, it’s a song called 海阔天空 [Hǎikuòtiānkōng]
by Beyond, which means like ‘Under a Vast Sky’,I don't exactly know the translation. And Beyond
(35:09):
is a Hong Kong rock band from the 80s, like1980-something. And they're just great. I mean,
it's pop rock, but at the same time they havethese guitar riffs that are amazing. And they sing
in Cantonese, which is the ultimate musical thing.OF: Well this is where I have to interrupt you,
because it's so difficult to sing inCantonese. How the hell do you do that?
FV (35:31):
I don't sing the Cantonese. OF
I pretend to sing the Cantonese thing, of course!
OF (35:36):
Yes. I don't know if I'll ever ever feel brave enough to sing a song in Cantonese.
FV (35:44):
Come to karaoke with me and then I’ll show the way.
OF (35:46):
What was it called again? FV
Yeah, and that's Mandarin. But do you have a clue how you say it in Cantonese?
FV (35:53):
No. No no no, of course not. OF
from JustPod, which is the studio where we'rein right now: What or who is your biggest
source of inspiration in China?FV: I think it’s my bicycle guy.
This guy has been fixing my bicycle for the past12 years. We don't talk that much, but I take him
(36:16):
as an example and a symbol of all of the peoplewho are making and tinkering their own things,
that you see walking in the street. And you seeeverybody doing adjustments, or some changes,
or some fixing, or some personalisation. The waythat he fixes the bicycle, he basically most of
the time uses a hammer.OF: Oh.
So it's the source of inspiration because you go there with a problem,
(36:39):
and then nowadays I'm going to say "Let's seehow he’s going to use the hammer this time.”
Will he smash a piece, or is he crackingsomething, or is he completely displacing
something else? But whatever the processis, he always gives me back a bicycle that
is working perfectly.OF: Wow.
I have a very old-school bike, and the surprise of the
process for me, it's a good metaphor.OF: Oh absolutely. Yeah, the realness of
(37:02):
that work, and the handicraft…FV: The handicraft.
OF (37:04):
…Of knowing how to use that one tool to fix something, which normally you would say “Oh I’ll
just throw it away and buy a new one”. But yeah,he can fix it. I love it. Thank you so much.
FV (37:13):
Thank you. OF
a lot of the stuff is going to bubble in my mindafter this conversation, things that I can change
in my life. Before you leave, let me ask you theimportant question. Which is, out of everyone
you know in China, who would you recommend that Iinterview in the next season of Mosaic of China?
I want you to invite Temple Rat. OF
(37:34):
Yes. OF
This is person. OF
It’s the artistic name of a musician and DJ. She's a friend of course, but she's my favourite
electronic and techno DJ in the country. Butshe's also an 二胡 [èrhú] musician and producer.
She's producing music with a lot of culturalinfluence on the stage and on the music part.
OF (38:00):
Oh, I love it. FV
think she's a great soul and a great musician.So I think it's a good piece of the Mosaic.
Woah, brilliant. I agree. And if you could ask Temple Rat one question,
what question would you ask her?FV: If you would be the
creator of a sound that already existed,
that you know, which sound would it be?OF: Oh. Nice. That is a very abstract question,
(38:26):
I appreciate that. Let's see how she tackles it.FV: Yeah.
Thank you so much Francesca. FV
[Outro]OF: There are lots of images
alongside today’s episode, so be sure to see whatDragon Burn looks like; to see Francesca’s object,
the rooster pendant; to see her favouriteWeChat stickers; and so on. If you’re on WeChat,
(38:50):
make sure to add me there so that I can inviteyou to one of the listeners groups. There are
about 2,000 of us there now, spread over a fewgroups, and I’ve shared a link there to the Dragon
Burn official WeChat account, in case you want tolearn more. And speaking of learning more, if you
were inspired by Francesca’s affinity with theChinese countryside, then you should definitely
(39:12):
listen to my chat with the rural architectChen Haoru, from Episode 05 of this season.
As with every main episode of the show, there’sa longer version of my interview with Francesca
available on the PREMIUM version, on Patreon orApple Podcasts Subscriptions internationally,
or on 爱发电 [Àifādiàn] in China. Justsearch for mosaicofchina on those
(39:35):
platforms. And here are some clips fromwhat you’ll find there from today’s show:
[Clip 1]FV: There’s a hotpot restaurant at Burning Man.
[Clip 2]FV: You
are in the middle of a desert that isvery harsh. And you have to survive.
[Clip 3]FV: I don't believe in
this distinction that design is for selling, andart is for some kind of intellectual exercise.
[Clip 4]FV: Your body completely disengages to
(39:56):
the relationship of payment transactions.[Clip 5]
Obviously you can tell people who are there for the burn, right?
FV (40:01):
Yeah. You're chatting on the highways. OF
[Clip 6]FV: I was in Laos for 72 hours. It was not a
very great idea, in terms of a lot of things.[Clip 7]
Coming back can be shaky sometimes, because… OF
holiday. I'm like “Eurgh,I’m back to my real life.”
[Clip 8]FV: When
people ask me “What do you do?” Isay “Like, in which part of the day?”
(40:21):
[Clip 9]FV: Apparently you are supposed to
visit your parents at least once a year.OF: Oh! By law.
By law. [End of Audio Clips]
OF (40:29):
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artwork by Denny Newell. Stick around after the
music for a catch-up conversation with the personwho referred Francesca to the Mosaic, the clean
energy entrepreneur Alex Shoer, from Season 02Episode 11. And I’ll see you back here next time.
(40:50):
[Catch-Up Interview]AS:
Hello hello?OF: Hi Alex.
AS (41:01):
Hello Oscar. Can you hear me OK? OF
A sight for sore eyes.AS: Likewise, likewise.
OF (41:10):
Well, when we first talked - last season, in Season 02 - you had been trapped outside of China
and you'd been making it work living outside,hopping between places on the east coast of the
States and the west. And then you settled on ahouseboat in Sausalito. You were still working
China times, and you had every intention ofmaking your way back. So where are you right now?
AS (41:32):
Yeah, great question. I am currently residing in Brooklyn, New York.
OF (41:37):
Ah. AS
last year and a half, or so. And I met someone newas well, and I brought her east from California. I
continue my China hours journey, I've primarilybeen running my business, Seeder Clean Energy,
which has actually picked up quite a bitwith the China energy crisis. You know,
coal prices and everything going very high, anda lot of renewed interest in renewable energy,
(42:01):
especially due to the increasedenforcement of the Chinese government
renewable energy targets and emission standards.OF: Well, just to remind people who didn't hear
your original episode, we mainly talked about theups and downs of the solar industry over the last
10 years. So drastic were those ups and downsthat we called it ‘the solarcoaster’. And it's
(42:24):
really nice to hear that we are now going upagain. Is it just solar? It sounded like you
are doing more than just solar these days.AS: That is correct. Mostly, we're looking
at general renewable energy procurement now. Sothat's typically solar or wind energy. Last year,
the Chinese government started allowinglarge corporations in China to actually
(42:44):
purchase renewable energy directly through thepower exchange. So that has been the thing that
honestly we've been waiting for, for 10 yearsor more. Finally, it's achievable to purchase
renewable energy at scale, and to have thecredible claim on that renewable energy.
It's only in certain provinces, and there arestill challenges with getting access to enough
renewable energy and negotiating the contracts,because they're very much like one-off bilateral
(43:09):
negotiations. But a lot of big corporates arenow finally ready to purchase renewable energy.
So we're looking at solar, wind, a little bit ofhydro, there's even some people who are interested
in nuclear. Pretty excited about that.OF: It's so interesting. And of course,
it all depends on the laws that get passed, andthe regulations. That really is what your story
was about. It was, of course, about the renewableenergy industry, but it was broadly more about
(43:33):
how China regulates anything. And we have seenhow it affected your business. We saw recently,
since you left, a similar thing happened inthe education industry. I couldn't help but
think about your story when those things werehappening in that industry. Sudden regulations
causing a different kind of rollercoaster. It wasone of those moments where I felt “Wow, maybe I am
(43:53):
finally starting to learn how China works”.AS: Yeah, that's such a good observation. I
didn't think anyone else picked up on that besidesme, but I'm glad that you did. It is one thing,
and then it's another. So yeah, it's a challengingsituation to be in, if you're running a business.
Yes. So anyone who wants to hear about that story, definitely go back and listen
to Alex's original episode, it will teachyou how industries can change overnight.
(44:18):
It's interesting, because… Well, your story stillis a China story. You know, that's where you were
able to turn your passion and your dream intoyour career. So you being in the States now,
this is the first time really that you'reworking in this industry in the States,
or in fact really anywhere with one foot outsideof China. What does that make you think about,
(44:39):
in terms of the differences? Does itmake you look back on your experiences
in China in a slightly different light?AS: Yeah, great question. It does make me
appreciate some things, especially the relativeease for me of doing business in the US. I mean,
just being able to speak a common languageand be able to read a contract with ease,
it does just change the dynamic of the paceat which I can make decisions. And a little
(45:04):
bit more confidence in terms of the frameworkI'm operating in. That's one aspect. But the
downside is that we do spend a lot of time withpolitics here, in terms of getting regulations,
and policies, and political debates, anddiscourse. And it's exhausting, especially if
you're trying to get me thing done. If you want tochange things, if you want to move things forward,
it's a very lengthy, very cumbersome process tomake change happen. And often that change only
(45:27):
lasts two or four years until the next cycle, ornext election. So I do really miss the long-term
planning of China in particular. There's somethingbeautiful about being able to create a 30 year
plan and work backwards in five year increments tothat plan. As someone who is very focused on the
future - and my whole passion and mission aroundclimate change and renewable energy - it is a much
(45:49):
easier framework to work within. And then alsojust the lack of manufacturing capacity in the
West, I think it's still…OF: Oh right, yeah.
AS (45:55):
It’s such a challenge. I mean, everything is waiting on a supply chain somewhere else. For
example, with solar and wind, a big challengeis just getting the products into the country.
And the ones that are made here tend to be moreexpensive. So pros and cons, that is for sure.
OF (46:11):
Yes. AS
with either side. I would love a hybrid.OF: Yes. It's fascinating. Could you
say one is a more predictable chaosthan the other? I don't know, right?
AS (46:22):
Yeah, I don't think so. It's hard to say. OF
No it isn’t. OF:
You being in Season 02, you are sandwiched betweenthe person who referred you from Season 01,
and the person who you referred to Season 03. Solet me start with your connection to Greg Nance
from Season 01. Have you been in touch with him?AS: We actually met face to face when he started
(46:48):
his run across the United States in Brooklyn,New York. I ran the first mile with him. And it
was great to send him off on his way. And he'srunning across the country to raise awareness
around mental health and addiction for youngpeople. That was the first time seeing him in
person. And it was such a good moment. Andit was great to see him doing his thing,
and hitting his stride. No pun intended.OF: Ha. Your catch-up will of course be
(47:11):
tacked on to the end of the personwho you referred to Season 03,
which was our mutual friend Francesca. So howabout you and Francesca, have you been in touch?
Yes, we've been in touch, especially given our active roles in the Burning Man world. There
are a lot of overlapping communities. She issomeone who I think of when I need a smile.
(47:31):
She's got incredible energy. And she givesgreat hugs. So if you ever get the chance,
get a good hug from Francesca.OF: That's a nice way to wrap
this up. As well as saying congratulations, Iknow that when you mentioned you have come to
the east of the States with your partner, thatyou recently got engaged. So Mazel Tov to you.
(47:52):
Yes. Thank you very much. Yeah, life life goes on. It's kind of crazy how fast
time flies. I cannot believe how long I lived inShanghai, and I cannot believe how long I've been
gone from Shanghai. Both numbers shock me.OF: Yeah. Well it's great to see your face,
Alex. Thank you again for being a part of thisMosaic, and I look forward to keeping in touch.
Same here. Thank you so much for all you do. And I'm so glad this is continuing
(48:15):
on. It's been an amazing inspiration for mehearing all the awesome people. Keep it going!
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.