August 2, 2021 • 34 mins
Hot off the press, today’s episode is with the Fire Engineer, Michael Kinsey. Like a moth to a flame, I was fascinated to learn what his job entails. It was a slow burn, but I was soon fired up, and all guns blazing to learn more. To add fuel to the fire, Michael explains in glowing detail how he has blazed a trail in the research between human behaviour and the development of fire-safety guidance for the super high-rise buildings that increasingly adorn the city skylines of China. The episode also includes a catch-up interview with Srinivas Yanamadra from Season 01 Episode 15. (https://mosaicofchina.com/season-01-episode-15-srinivas-yanamandra).
Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 01:07 - Part 1 17:04 - Part 2 25:45 - Outro 28:22 - Catch-Up Interview Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at https://mosaicofchina.com/season-02-episode-25-michael-kinsey.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
[Trailer]OF: You're supposed to be a gentleman.
MK (00:03):
I apologise. OF
[Intro]OF:
Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast aboutpeople who are making their mark in China.
I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
You know, there are some episodesin this podcast series where you
really want the guest to talk expansivelyabout their lives and their experiences,
(00:26):
and maybe the last couple of episodes withSalome CHEN and DJ BO have been a bit like that.
And then there are people like today's guestDr. Michael Kinsey, where they do something
so specific, requiring such a specialisttoolbox of skills, that the fascination
comes from focusing in and discovering all thesecret panels and compartments of that toolbox.
(00:50):
But if all this talk about specialisttoolboxes is already making you roll your eyes,
then I'm actually doing Michael a disservice,because his area of expertise has as much to
do with human behaviour as it does, touse the scientific term, geeky stuff.
[Part 1]OF:
Hello Michael, what is your title?MK: So my job is as a fire engineer,
(01:16):
to help design safer buildings during fires.OF: Well, I want to know more about it. And before
we do go into that, the first question I have toask you is, what object did you bring that in some
way defines your life here in China?MK: So the object I've brought in
is something called a smoke mask.OF: Oh, let's have a look. Right.
(01:36):
It's in this plastic box. And I can open it. OF
Exactly. So basically, you find these commonly in hotels in China,
typically they’re in the wardrobe.OF: Yes.
On the top shelf, near the extra duvets and covers. And the purpose is that if there's a fire,
and smoke starts billowing through the corridors,then this might be useful. Because you can put it
(01:58):
on, and it will help you survive a bit longer.OF: Wow. And tell me what is it that
you do then, being a fire engineer?MK: So I work for a company called Arup.
Most people haven't necessarily heard of it, butthey've probably heard of some of the buildings
we've helped design, like the Bird's Nest,Shanghai World Financial Center, the Sydney
Opera House. My job is to go around helping allthe other engineers help design their part of
(02:21):
the building, so that we can make it safe during afire. So if I'm talking to architects, often that
relates to how many exits; where the stairs are;the layouts; if the travel distances are too long.
If I'm talking to, say, a structural engineer,it's how high is the building; do I need to
protect the structure so that if there's afire, the building's not going to collapse?
(02:44):
If I'm talking to a mechanical engineer, I'll betalking to them about the smoke control system,
to see if it's big enough to accommodatethe expected fire size that we might have.
So one of the things I love about my job isI get to learn a little bit about all these
different aspects of building design.OF: And so at what point in the
process are you brought into it?MK: Commonly, very early on. When you're
(03:06):
designing a building, you try and design the bigstuff first. So obviously, that's the shape of the
building, the form. Then you have the structure.But also for fire, we need escape stairs, and they
can take up a lot of space. So we have to makesure we get enough of those designed in at the
very beginning, so that they can start designingaround those things. So often, quite early on.
OF (03:24):
And I'm guessing that means that your input can have a big effect on
actually how the building ends up looking.MK: Yeah, a lot of my job is telling people
what they can't do. It's very similar to aparent actually, because it's unsafe. So a key
part of what we do is about how we communicatethis information, to come up with solutions
(03:44):
of how you can do it. I mean, I've been a fireengineer for coming up to about eight years now.
And every project is different. And I constantlyhave to learn more. And I think it suits my
personality. I have a degree in computing, andI have a PhD also in computing and mathematical
sciences as well. I’m naturally curious.OF: OK. So then where is the overlap between
(04:06):
somebody with a computer science background,
and a fire engineering job?MK: So my PhD was involved in
developing computer models to simulate peopleevacuating high-rise buildings using lifts,
and also Underground stations using escalators.OF: Right.
MK (04:23):
Trying to understand how people behave in high-rise building evacuations, and on
escalators. And then I went and said “Well, howcan I develop computer models to represent this?”
I actually shared my office with two psychologistswho were involved in interviewing survivors of the
World Trade Center 911 attacks. And I've had manydiscussions about how people behave. Then had to
(04:48):
think about how can I programme this, the logic.OF: Oh I see. So you're converting
behaviours into a computer algorithm.MK: Yeah, I would look at it more as, what are
some of the patterns in behaviour? And how can wedevelop a model? So what percentage of people do
X behaviour? What percentage do Y behaviour? Andthen we can develop that into a simplified version
(05:10):
of reality, which is our model. So for a lot ofmy PhD, I would either count people doing things,
or I conducted a survey asking people what theywould do. And there's huge limitations with this.
OF (05:22):
Right. MK
Because what I say I would do in the cold light of day, is probably not what I would do
when I'm panicking with my pants on fire.MK: Exactly, exactly. Well, actually it's
interesting, most fires - when there is a fire,say, in a massive building - the fire won't be
anywhere near you, but you're still required toevacuate. So a lot of the time people won't be
even aware that it's a real fire.OF: Yes, I totally understand that.
(05:45):
Because you hear a fire alarm even, and yourfirst instinct is to think it's a false alarm.
MK (05:50):
Exactly. So this comes back to a common bias. And I've done research looking at human behaviour.
One of the things we look at is biases.And ‘Normalcy Bias’ is a common one, where
people think that there's nothing wrong. Becausestatistically, it's likely there is nothing wrong.
The chances of you being involved in an actualfire are very small. So whilst it is a bias,
it's actually totally valid to think that.OF: Right, and what other biases did you find?
(06:14):
A lot. ‘Authority Bias’, so if your boss tells you to do something,
you're less likely to question him, becausehe's your boss in a position of authority.
The same is true if you’re, say, in a museum,and a member of staff asks you to do something,
you're likely to follow what they do, becausethey're in a position of authority. So there's a
myriad of biases we've identified, and use thatto try and frame how we think about how people
(06:39):
might make mistakes during a fire evacuation.OF: I see. So you might model the behaviour of
what that guard in the museum would do. Andthen subsequently model what people around
that guard would do. And then so on and so forth.MK: Exactly. And then we try and associate some
kind of probability of doing certain things.OF: Right.
And then we'd run the simulation multiple times. And sometimes the guard might do one thing,
(07:02):
sometimes he might do another.OF: And then work out,
do you have the right safety precautions,no matter what that guard did, basically.
Exactly. We're not trying to design for one event, one fire. We’re trying to design
for a range of events, to make it a resilientdesign. So we run a series of different scenarios,
maybe fires happening in different places, maybepeople behaving in different ways. And then we
(07:24):
try and say "OK, now we know this, where are highlevels of congestion? Why aren't people using this
exit? How can we get them to use this exit?” Andthen we might be able to either change the design
of the actual building itself, or we mightchange the management procedures to try and get
more people to do a certain type of behaviour.OF: The more you talk about it, the more
(07:45):
you think “Well of course this has to dowith computer science. Like, how did fire
engineers do it beforehand? Because you can'tsimulate fires without this kind of modelling.
Absolutely. I mean, traditionally before computer models, people just followed
building fire codes. These are general rules- almost like heuristics - that you build your
building according to. Like, you need thismany exits if you have this many people.
That's still primarily the way you designbuildings at the moment. The problem is that
(08:09):
these building codes are not very flexible. Whenyou want to build very different designs, and you
can't follow the code, how do you demonstrate it'sOK? Say, for example, I'm building an airport. And
my travel distance is longer than what it saysin the code. What I can do is I can run something
called an evacuation model, where I simulatepeople in the building evacuating, and then I
also simulate the fire. And that simulatesthe smoke spread, and smoke falling down.
(08:34):
And then I can say “Look, everyone can evacuatein all these different fire scenarios.” So looking
at fires in different areas, different sizes.And then I can say “Look, in all these possible
fire scenarios - or probable fire scenarios -people can still get out. So we think it's safe”.
OF (08:47):
Thinking about that example you said about the ‘Authority Bias’, that makes me think about the
cultural differences between how people behave.Because you would imagine that in a country where
societally you are more inclined to followauthority, you'd have a different outcome to a
more sort of liberal and devil-may-care society.MK: Absolutely. And I think in the World Trade
(09:12):
Center 911 attacks, where you had companiescoming from different cultural backgrounds,
they observed some of the cultural differences.OF: Oh really.
MK (09:20):
So I think anecdotally there were some companies that were predominately American. And
before the alarm even went off, a numberof people said “I'm getting out of here,
I'm not waiting to be told what to do.” A moreindividualistic way of thinking. And conversely,
there were Japanese companies, and theyall waited until their boss told them
that they should evacuate. So culture, byall means, definitely plays a part in how
(09:44):
people behave during an evacuation. It's ahard one to nail down, “What is culture?”
Because it's such a myriad ofthings, and even within a country,
there can be different sub-cultures as well.OF: Then when you're plugging this into
your programme, you do take intoaccount the differences? Or does
it all kind of wash out in the end?MK: Generally, we would create a more
(10:07):
simplified version. So the key thing is gettingthe right numbers of people in. Typically,
in the model, we’ll be conservative. Sowe'll totally max out the population.
And then how we’d accommodatedifferent demographic groups are
things like changing speeds and things.OF: Well, you mentioned the example of
the individualist society, let's saylike an American. And then the more
(10:28):
follow-the-authority society like Japanese.Where in that spectrum does China lie?
I'm not familiar with the latest literature in China. I have read the cultural map, though.
And I think China seems to be a bit higher, closerto Japan, whereby people are more likely to follow
authority. Compared to, say, the UK or the US.OF: Well, you are an expert, then, in the
(10:50):
behaviour of people in fires, especially when itcomes to lifts and escalators. Is that the way
that I would sum up your specialisation?MK: Yes, that's true.
OF (10:58):
Which to me, seems like a puzzler. Because the one thing that I kinda thought I knew was that,
in a fire don't use the lift, right?MK: Absolutely. I mean, one of the
reasons there was an interest in my research wasbecause we're building ever higher buildings. And
asking people to walk down flights of stairs isquite strenuous, certainly as we have an ageing
(11:18):
population and increased numbers of disabledpeople who can't necessarily very easily use
stairs. And lifts potentially provide aviable means to get a lot of people out.
The key findings from the research were thatyou have to use a combination of lifts and
stairs. You don't just only use lifts. Otherwise,people will be waiting forever to use a lift.
(11:39):
Generally for a very super high-rise building… So,the higher the building, the more benefit it would
be to provide lifts. I think, low-rise buildingsdon't generally benefit for throughput. And the
other finding was that it generally helps touse something called ‘Shuttle Floors’ or ‘Sky
Lobbies’. So you're shuttling your lifts betweencertain fixed floors. And what that means is,
(12:00):
people will typically walk down the stairs to thenext sky lobby, and then they would take the lift.
And what that means is that you get this processhappening in parallel, whereby some people are
being evacuated in lifts, and some people arewalking down to get the lift. And that staggers
their arrival to the lift lobby, it meansyou don't have as big crowds in the lobbies.
And we could reduce evacuation times by up to 33%.I mean, there's a load of other ones. Occupied
(12:24):
time feel shorter than unoccupied time. This iswhy in lift lobbies, they typically put mirrors,
TV screens, they give you something to do whileyou're waiting. And then the time feels much
shorter than had you had nothing to do.OF: Fascinating. Which has nothing to
do with fire, right?MK: Exactly. But if we
can make people feel less anxious whilstthey're waiting during a fire evacuation,
that can generally help improve things.It also will help improve the likelihood
(12:46):
they'll choose to use a lift ifthey're prepared to wait longer,
compared to choosing to walk down a stair.OF: Well when it comes, then, to big buildings,
this is very relevant to a city like Shanghai,where we are. Because I'm imagining that your
job is different depending on the location.MK: Yeah, absolutely. And also the people we
deal with when we're designing the buildingsis also different. Quite often, cities would
(13:09):
have their own fire codes, on top of which totailor for specific fire challenges. So there
are certain parts of China which are particularlymountainous, so they will try and consider the
mountains within certain fire codes, and may berelax some of the other requirements. Because you
can't necessarily do all the things you'd normallydo because you're building your high-rise building
on the side of a mountain or something.OF: Can you think of some examples of
(13:32):
some of the buildings that you have helpedwith their fire engineering here in China,
in the last eight years?MK: Sure, perhaps one of
the most notable ones that I can thinkof is the Starbuck Shanghai Roastery.
Oh, right. MK
Yeah. MK
projects I helped with. At the time, it was thelargest Starbucks in the world. A unique challenge
of that is that they have this big processing areafor making coffee. That's quite unique. I also
(13:56):
work on helping with train design.OF: Oh right.
MK (13:59):
Helping the fire engineering design for trains. And we helped some Chinese rolling
stock manufacturers design trains for theU.S. Trains are very different to buildings.
And whilst they are much smaller, they're justas complicated in terms of fire engineering.
OF (14:14):
Because? MK
down to a very small scale. So everything that canburn on a train has to be tested for flammability,
smoke, toxicity, and heat release rate.OF: Yeah, this is where if I know too much
about fires, I start to get a bit worried.MK: Well actually I'd say, everything is
controlled on a train. From a lot ofthe materials, everything that can burn.
Whereas in a building, quite often there'll besome level of uncertainty about exactly what
(14:39):
the tenants are going to put in the building.Generally, they have to follow certain fire
code requirements, but that's done later onin the design process. Whereas with trains,
everything's kind of done at the same time.OF: And so when it comes down to what you're
doing here every day in China, whatis the ‘day in the life’ in that case?
MK (14:55):
I get to work on different projects. Sometimes I'll dip into one project… I’m
doing some evacuation modelling for a hotelat the moment. I've just finished one of a
shopping mall in 成都 [Chéngdū]. I'm involved inan airport project in Cambodia, and this'll be
looking at not just evacuations, but also materialtesting requirements; what happens when the client
(15:16):
can't necessarily meet certain fire codes;do we think it's OK; how can we show it's OK?
So a whole range of things.OF: And in terms of the codes,
would you say that the codes here areas strict as you'd find elsewhere?
Well, a lot of other countries have been looking at fire engineering for 50-100 years.
(15:36):
And you think, you know, what was happening inChina 100 years ago, they're in a different place.
This said, a lot of the latest research is comingout of China. A lot of Chinese universities are
contributing to the latest developments withinfire engineering. And the codes are developing.
And also, they'll develop in different waysbecause they're presented with new challenges in
China that perhaps you get less of in other partsof the world. You get super high-rise buildings,
(16:01):
600 metre buildings. You're gettingairports being built, a lot,
at the moment. And there are just fewer airportsbeing built in other parts of the world.
OF (16:09):
I can see why you are still passionate about it. It seems to involve so many different things
like the engineering side; the computermodelling side; the behaviour analysis side;
the customer relations managementside. Maybe I'm in the wrong job.
And I'm looking at your object. You know,when was the last time that you yourself have
(16:30):
worn something like this? Have you been involvedin anything like real-life modelling like that? Or
is that not really relevant to your world?MK: I haven't been involved in an actual
fire. I was involved in an evacuation of myapartment block. And I live on the 20th floor,
so I had to evacuate down the stairs. I wasthe first one out, thank god. I would die
of embarrassment if I wasn’t.OF: Die of something, yeah.
MK (16:52):
Yeah. But thankfully, I mainly look at other people involved in evacuations,
and try and understand what's going on.OF: Good. Thank you, Michael.
Thank you. OF
[Part 2]OF: Do you know what,
I haven't had enough fire puns. I have to think
about more fire puns as we go on.MK: There’s the classic one of
(17:12):
‘Burning questions, model answers’.OF: OK, we're on to Part 2, Michael.
I’m ready. OF
what is your favourite China-related fact?MK: So my favourite China-related fact is to
do with the Three Gorges Dam.OF: Oh, yeah.
In 湖北 [Húběi] Province. It's a massive hydroelectric dam. It's the biggest in the world.
(17:34):
And it displaces large amounts of water. And NASAhave done a study and demonstrated it displaces so
much water that it actually slows the rotation ofthe Earth by a few decimals of a microsecond. So
it actually slows down time.OF: What?
I didn't believe this, I had to go and look it up on the NASA website. It's true.
(17:54):
It's amazing.OF: Gosh, OK.
Do you remember that Superman movie where he…MK: …Goes around so fast. Yeah, yeah,
he goes around so fast, yeah.OF: And then he reverses time.
I think it must be to do with that.MK: He should have gone to 湖北 [Húběi],
you know.OF: Do you
have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?MK: Yes. I actually love learning Chinese,
(18:16):
and part of it is learning Chinese sayings. AndI think one of my favourite sayings is 精诚所至，金石为开
[jīngchéng suǒzhì, jīnshí wéikāi].OF: Wait a minute, wait a minute.
I don't know that one, say it again slowly?MK: 精诚所至，金石为开 [Jīngchéng suǒzhì, jīnshí wéikāi].
OF (18:31):
Naah, I don't know it. MK
No, it sounds good to me. MK
‘With complete sincerity, you can open metalor stone’. You can overcome any challenge.
And the reason I like it is, it's quite inspiring,which I think is quite useful when you're learning
Chinese, you need that inspiration. Andalso it's a derivation of my Chinese name,
(18:52):
which is 金诚 [Jīn Chéng].OF: Oh nice.
MK (18:54):
金 [Jīn] sounds similar, phonetically, to my actual English name, Kinsey. Yeah.
OF (18:58):
And it’s ‘gold’, right? MK
And ‘golden honesty is 金诚 [Jīn Chéng].OF: Oh and that's your… Oh, that is beautiful.
Because you are quite sincere as a person. I'mfeeling that, you know, you're the kind of person
who says what he means and means what he says.MK: I do. I try to. And sometimes it works. And
sometimes - certainly in Chinese culture, with the
concept of saving face - itdoesn't always go down well.
(19:19):
Alright, I'm going to try and learn that one. Although the ones
that are eight characters, I always findthose much harder. I prefer the four ones.
MK (19:25):
Absolutely. I mean, another one I quite like is 拍马屁 [pāimǎpì].
OF (19:29):
Wait a minute, wait a minute. 拍 [[Pāi], OK, 马 [mǎ], OK. Is that to do with a horse’s fart?
MK (19:35):
拍马屁 [Pāimǎpì] is ‘stroke the horse’s arse’ or ‘pat the horse’s arse’.
OF (19:39):
OK. MK
Oh. MK
and you use just a few words of Chinese, theygo “Woah, 哇塞 [wasāi], your Chinese is amazing”.
And so “No, 不用拍我马屁 [bùyòng pāi wǒ mǎ pì].”OF: Oh wow.
MK (19:53):
You don't need to stroke my horse’s arse, you don’t need to suck up.
OF (19:55):
Which is again in idiomatic Chinese. So in a way, you're also
saying again how good your Chinese is.MK: Yeah, it doesn't manage expectations
very well. It can get a bit hairy sometimes.OF: Right. OK. I think I have to have a
warning now on this episode. I can't believeyou've talked about horses’ arses, Michael.
You're supposed to be a gentleman.MK: I apologise.
We are representing the Brits here.
(20:19):
What is your favourite destination within China?MK: I think one of my favourite places
is 浙江 [Zhèjiāng], as a province. Lots of placesof natural beauty. It's so close to Shanghai as
well. I've been whitewater rafting there, I'vebeen hiking there, you can go to 杭州 [Hángzhōu],
I've been to different islands just off the coastof 浙江 [Zhèjiāng]. It's absolutely beautiful. And
(20:40):
you can do it all within a weekend, if you livein Shanghai. I think it's an amazing place.
If you left China, what would you miss the most, and what would you miss the least?
MK (20:49):
I think I would miss the convenience of living here. You can find almost anyone to do anything.
Like fix things almost at any time of the day,or any day of the week. Actually, last night,
I forgot my keys. And I know a guy who will comeat any time. And it was slightly late at night,
and he would just get up, come, and then hewould come and open the door, and that was it.
OF (21:10):
Wow. MK
of the things I would miss the least is thelanguage barrier, and certainly being able
to connect with certain people on certain levels.Conversely, it motivates me to want to learn more.
Is there anything that still surprises you about life in China?
MK (21:25):
I think one of the things which surprises me still is how kind and welcoming people are,
especially to foreigners. You know, fromwhen I have problems working out an app on
my phone, or I'm trying to pay for a bus ride,someone will come and help me. And I haven't
even asked for it. It still amazes me.OF: I think this could also be a function
of your exuding sincerity, Michael.MK: Well, I try and… Whatever I do,
(21:48):
I try and do it with a smile. And, youknow, and just look clueless. I've hammered
down the clueless look quite well now, so…OF: No but I mean, absolutely you're right. If
you do approach it with that attitude - and you'resmiling, you’re not getting frustrated - I think
China is a place that will repay that.MK: Absolutely.
OF (22:05):
What is your favourite place to go out, to eat or drink or just hang out?
MK (22:09):
One of the places - and I don't know if this is a bit of a cop-out - but it's Pie Society.
OF (22:14):
Oh, yes I know it. MK
There’s a couple, I think. MK
live not far from there. And they do loads ofpies, Sunday roast, and a lot of ‘pub grub’ food.
Yes. When I first found it out, I was like “What’s this place?” And I walked in
and got a steak and kidney pie withbaked beans on the side. I was just
(22:35):
like “This is the happiest day of my life.”MK: It's always interesting when I invite
some of my Chinese friends, perhaps, to goand try it as well, because I’m like “Look,
you can try British food”.OF: Although we're
not world famous for our cuisine.MK: No. No, normally it's fish and chips.
Oh god. The next question, it’s a big one. What is your favourite WeChat sticker?
MK (22:54):
OK, so this… OF
There you go. OF
So this sticker is actually formed of three parts - three stickers - that you have to sort of
put together in the right order. And it's of thissmall, fat, Chinese child belly dancing, almost.
So I love this because it's quitehappy. It was one of the first ones I've
(23:17):
seen which are multi-component stickers.OF: Yes.
And I use it, I guess, when I want to say that I'm happy,
or to perhaps exemplify my dancing style.OF: Well, I would like to see you dance like this.
Very good. And it's cheating aswell, because it's three, not one.
True. OF
send one of them? It must be a bit weird.MK: I’ve sent them in the wrong order once,
(23:39):
and it was like “Oh, recall, recall,” you know?OF: Nice.
What is your go-to song to sing at KTV?MK: So I know one Chinese song. It's called ‘爱我别走
[Àiwǒ biézǒu].’ It's a love song.OF: As in ‘Love me don’t go’?
‘Love me don't go’. OF
Exactly. It's a ballad, fairly simple. OF
can actually read the bloody lyrics.MK: Exactly. And I've memorised the
(24:02):
lyrics as well. I can just about read themnow. There's no rapping, which is good for
me for my background growing up in the meanstreets of Surrey. Yeah, it's just about
manageable. You know, I can almost sound OK.OF: Yes, those are the ones who need to learn.
Because I've been trying to find good songs,but people always like the upbeat ones,
and they’re too fast.MK: True.
OF (24:23):
And finally, what other China-related sources of information do you rely on?
MK (24:28):
Generally, I don't read the news as much since being here. I've just noticed it takes
up a lot of time developing opinions aboutthings I don't necessarily need to have.
OF (24:38):
Yes. MK
So the South China Morning Post, The Atlantic,The Washington Post, things like that.
And in terms of your professional life, are there industry websites or
other things that you would have a look at?MK: Yeah, there are scientific journals. There's
Fire Technology.OF: Ooh.
MK (24:59):
Yeah, I'm also a reviewer for some of these journals as well. So naturally I get given papers
to review, often ones from authors in China.People doing research in tiny parts of fire
engineering - looking at combustion, pyrolysis,smoke dynamics, structural response - whereas I'm
more interested in looking at how people behave.OF: Michael, thank you so much.
(25:20):
Thank you. OF
interview in the next season of Mosaic of China.MK: I will nominate Dr. Maya Shinozaki,
who's a colleague and a friend. She solvesreally complicated engineering problems
using computer modelling as well. I thinkshe'll be really interesting to talk with.
OF (25:39):
All right. I'm intimidated already, but I look forward to meeting Maya. Thank you
so much, Michael.MK: Thank you.
[Outro]OF:
Well it's taken us until Episode 25 of Season 02in this series, but I think we've just finally
managed to reach peak diversity (25:54):
two geeky middle-aged English home counties white dudes.
At least Michael has a PhD and acorporate career to his credit,
all I've got is this podcast and anintermediate swimming certificate.
Maybe what's really going on is that I need toadmit that talking about steak and kidney pie with
(26:14):
someone from Surrey is making me feel a little bithomesick. It's been 18 months since I last stepped
foot outside of mainland China. And while I knowthere are people listening who have had a much
harder time than the likes of me over the lastyear, I feel like I need to at least speak for all
those other people who are in this same situation.Hang on in there everyone. And if you feel like
(26:37):
you've been going just that extra notch morecrazy over the last few months, you're not alone.
OK, back to today's episode, and you can see theimages that go with it on all the usual places:
on Instagram, Facebook, WeChat, the website,and Patreon. And speaking of Patreon, there's
now another place you can hear the PREMIUM versionof the show, and that's on Apple Podcasts. So just
(27:02):
type 'Mosaic of China PREMIUM' into your ApplePodcasts app, and you'll now be able to subscribe
straight through there. Here are some clipsfrom today's full-length version of the show...
[Clip 1]MK: What, am I supposed to
drop my life and not come back?[Clip 2]
MK (27:16):
Known waits feel shorter than unknown waits. So if you tell people
how long they're going to wait, that makesit feel like it's a shorter period of time.
[Clip 3]MK: We're
at 70 floors up! Are you gonna choose not touse a lift when we can get out really quick?
[Clip 4]MK: Ships are very different. If there's a fire,
you can't just get off the ship.OF: Right.
[Clip 5]MK: ‘Bandwagon Bias’. You're more likely to
do something if someone else is doing it.[Clip 6]
OF (27:38):
OK, so there's more to being a fire engineer than just looking at the height of doors.
MK (27:43):
Absolutely. [End of Audio Clips]
And that's all for today. Mosaic of China isme, Oscar Fuchs, with artwork by Denny Newell.
Coming up is a catch-up from Season 01 withanother PhD, it's with Dr. Srinivas Yanamandra
from Season 01 Episode 15. If you enjoyedtoday's chat with Michael and you haven't yet
heard Srini's original episode, you shoulddefinitely check it out, not least because
(28:07):
there's also a surprising connection to the ThreeGorges Dam. And I'll see you back here next week.
[Catch-Up Interview]OF:
Srini, it's great to see you again.SY: My pleasure Oscar, thank you so
(28:28):
much. You gave me so much visibility,so I'm always thankful to you.
OF (28:31):
Oh, not at all, I'm thankful to you. Your episode was one of the ones that people do talk
about still, because it was so unusual. Well,I wanted to check up on you and to ask you
what has happened, especially during COVID.SY: During COVID, I have got a little more
depth into epidemics. And I did a couple ofsessions on finance technology and epidemics,
(28:51):
how to link between epidemics and asystemic crisis that the banks face.
And that has actually led me to finally enrolmyself into a Master's in global bioethics.
Wow. SY
June 2020, and I'm into… Like, it is a two and ahalf year programme. I enrolled myself because I'm
so excited to understand how ethical dimensionscan come into the biotech space, actually. So…
(29:16):
Amazing. And you're doing that over the internet, I guess.
SY (29:20):
Indeed, indeed, there is this UNESCO programme, so a United Nations programme,
and they offer it through a University in Mexico,Anáhuac University. And I enrolled, it is an
online global bioethics Master's programme.OF: Well, that is a great match for you.
Yeah. OF
with computing, with the pandemic.SY: Yes.
OF (29:39):
And do you already have any early insights? SY
good in terms of what we regularly read innewspapers. Whether you have to impose someone to
wear a mask, or you don't have to impose someoneto wear a mask; the kind of ethics in terms of
rationing of the number of beds, for example, forthe COVID patients. So there are a lot of ethical
issues that have evolved and we are now grapplingwith, which maybe we haven't really paid that much
(30:04):
attention to in the pre-COVID era.OF: Yes, that's fascinating.
And then what about with the bank? So ofcourse, your title is that you're the chief
of Compliance at the New Development Bank, whichis a multilateral bank here in Shanghai. So what
was the situation there during the Coronavirus?SY: Indeed as a bank, I think we have really
geared up ourselves in terms of the taskthat is at hand. While we have been set
(30:27):
up primarily for our infrastructureand sustainable development projects,
there is an emergency that is required interms of assisting our member countries
catching up with this fight against theCoronavirus. So the bank did its bit in
terms of granting emergency response loans, acouple of billions of dollars in each country
to fight the pandemic immediately, and also asa kind of emergency economic response. So each
(30:50):
country by country we went through, we understoodwhat kind of programmes the governments are doing,
and whatever little bit that we could do in termsof supporting the country programmes, we were
able to do that. That’s a massive response,which is important considering the stature of
the bank as a development organisation, yeah.OF: And those were loans to other countries,
or to countries within BRICS themselves?SY: Because this bank is set up by the BRICS
(31:11):
- and our member countries are BRICS countriesas of now - so the loans have gone to them.
Right, understood. And then what about, then, in the workings of the bank?
Everyone within the bank represents thosefive different countries - each with their
different status of Coronavirus preventionand cure - how did you manage to work with
your co-workers? Was it just the same as usual?SY: Indeed, we have a brilliant way of, like,
(31:35):
work-from-home arrangements, our cloud systemswere perfectly up to the task. So the support
system that we had - in terms of the advisorythat we received, and in terms of the families
that keep coming from different parts of theworld to Shanghai - as a hosting organisation,
and also as a host government - we havebeen taken very good care of, both by
the bank and by the municipal government here.OF: Right. And then you've talked very much in
(32:00):
the abstract then, what about you in termsof your own learning? Have there been any
‘aha’ moments that you've had yourself?SY: The best ‘aha’ moment is I was able
to do a TEDx Talk.OF: Oh you did?
SY (32:11):
Yeah, I did a TEDx talk in October. And that was a real ‘aha’ moment, because
doing a TEDx is like a phenomenallyimportant item in the bucket list.
And the topic was on ‘Swans, Shocks andSerendipity’. So the Black Swan events which
have happened in the last two decades - like the2001 terrorist attack, the 2008 financial crisis,
(32:33):
and the 2019 COVID pandemic - so there arethree black swan events in financial history.
So how each of these events have led to aFinTech discovery. So serendipitously, these
crisis events have led to some important FinTechdiscoveries. That's available on YouTube, and I’m
marketing myself now if anybody's interested inthat, they can get onto YouTube and listen to
(32:54):
that. I think it's about a 17 minute talk.OF: Great. And of course there are three
examples because… ‘omne triumperfectum’. You taught me that.
Yes, indeed. OF
you. You haven't lost any of your enthusiasm,I was expecting no less from you. And we are
(33:14):
going to be releasing this episode at the sametime as a new episode in Season 02. And sadly,
the person who you referred couldn't be in thesecond season of Mosaic of China. Although it
wasn't really his fault, you have a new leaderat the bank, and we just couldn't get our
diaries to align. But thank you anyway forthe referral. I did manage to find a very nice
replacement, so I hope that you enjoy the episode.SY: Yeah, let me look forward to this. And
(33:38):
thank you so much. In fact, this is a phenomenalpodcast. And I'm also very much thrilled to do it.
OF (33:44):
Well, it's a pleasure to have you in the project and I look forward to continuing our
relationship. Thank you Srini.SY: Thank you.
[Trailer]OF: You're supposed to be a gentleman.
MK (00:03):
I apologise. OF
[Intro]OF:
Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast aboutpeople who are making their mark in China.
I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
You know, there are some episodesin this podcast series where you
really want the guest to talk expansivelyabout their lives and their experiences,
(00:26):
and maybe the last couple of episodes withSalome CHEN and DJ BO have been a bit like that.
And then there are people like today's guestDr. Michael Kinsey, where they do something
so specific, requiring such a specialisttoolbox of skills, that the fascination
comes from focusing in and discovering all thesecret panels and compartments of that toolbox.
(00:50):
But if all this talk about specialisttoolboxes is already making you roll your eyes,
then I'm actually doing Michael a disservice,because his area of expertise has as much to
do with human behaviour as it does, touse the scientific term, geeky stuff.
[Part 1]OF:
Hello Michael, what is your title?MK: So my job is as a fire engineer,
(01:16):
to help design safer buildings during fires.OF: Well, I want to know more about it. And before
we do go into that, the first question I have toask you is, what object did you bring that in some
way defines your life here in China?MK: So the object I've brought in
is something called a smoke mask.OF: Oh, let's have a look. Right.
(01:36):
It's in this plastic box. And I can open it. OF
Exactly. So basically, you find these commonly in hotels in China,
typically they’re in the wardrobe.OF: Yes.
On the top shelf, near the extra duvets and covers. And the purpose is that if there's a fire,
and smoke starts billowing through the corridors,then this might be useful. Because you can put it
(01:58):
on, and it will help you survive a bit longer.OF: Wow. And tell me what is it that
you do then, being a fire engineer?MK: So I work for a company called Arup.
Most people haven't necessarily heard of it, butthey've probably heard of some of the buildings
we've helped design, like the Bird's Nest,Shanghai World Financial Center, the Sydney
Opera House. My job is to go around helping allthe other engineers help design their part of
(02:21):
the building, so that we can make it safe during afire. So if I'm talking to architects, often that
relates to how many exits; where the stairs are;the layouts; if the travel distances are too long.
If I'm talking to, say, a structural engineer,it's how high is the building; do I need to
protect the structure so that if there's afire, the building's not going to collapse?
(02:44):
If I'm talking to a mechanical engineer, I'll betalking to them about the smoke control system,
to see if it's big enough to accommodatethe expected fire size that we might have.
So one of the things I love about my job isI get to learn a little bit about all these
different aspects of building design.OF: And so at what point in the
process are you brought into it?MK: Commonly, very early on. When you're
(03:06):
designing a building, you try and design the bigstuff first. So obviously, that's the shape of the
building, the form. Then you have the structure.But also for fire, we need escape stairs, and they
can take up a lot of space. So we have to makesure we get enough of those designed in at the
very beginning, so that they can start designingaround those things. So often, quite early on.
OF (03:24):
And I'm guessing that means that your input can have a big effect on
actually how the building ends up looking.MK: Yeah, a lot of my job is telling people
what they can't do. It's very similar to aparent actually, because it's unsafe. So a key
part of what we do is about how we communicatethis information, to come up with solutions
(03:44):
of how you can do it. I mean, I've been a fireengineer for coming up to about eight years now.
And every project is different. And I constantlyhave to learn more. And I think it suits my
personality. I have a degree in computing, andI have a PhD also in computing and mathematical
sciences as well. I’m naturally curious.OF: OK. So then where is the overlap between
(04:06):
somebody with a computer science background,
and a fire engineering job?MK: So my PhD was involved in
developing computer models to simulate peopleevacuating high-rise buildings using lifts,
and also Underground stations using escalators.OF: Right.
MK (04:23):
Trying to understand how people behave in high-rise building evacuations, and on
escalators. And then I went and said “Well, howcan I develop computer models to represent this?”
I actually shared my office with two psychologistswho were involved in interviewing survivors of the
World Trade Center 911 attacks. And I've had manydiscussions about how people behave. Then had to
(04:48):
think about how can I programme this, the logic.OF: Oh I see. So you're converting
behaviours into a computer algorithm.MK: Yeah, I would look at it more as, what are
some of the patterns in behaviour? And how can wedevelop a model? So what percentage of people do
X behaviour? What percentage do Y behaviour? Andthen we can develop that into a simplified version
(05:10):
of reality, which is our model. So for a lot ofmy PhD, I would either count people doing things,
or I conducted a survey asking people what theywould do. And there's huge limitations with this.
OF (05:22):
Right. MK
Because what I say I would do in the cold light of day, is probably not what I would do
when I'm panicking with my pants on fire.MK: Exactly, exactly. Well, actually it's
interesting, most fires - when there is a fire,say, in a massive building - the fire won't be
anywhere near you, but you're still required toevacuate. So a lot of the time people won't be
even aware that it's a real fire.OF: Yes, I totally understand that.
(05:45):
Because you hear a fire alarm even, and yourfirst instinct is to think it's a false alarm.
MK (05:50):
Exactly. So this comes back to a common bias. And I've done research looking at human behaviour.
One of the things we look at is biases.And ‘Normalcy Bias’ is a common one, where
people think that there's nothing wrong. Becausestatistically, it's likely there is nothing wrong.
The chances of you being involved in an actualfire are very small. So whilst it is a bias,
it's actually totally valid to think that.OF: Right, and what other biases did you find?
(06:14):
A lot. ‘Authority Bias’, so if your boss tells you to do something,
you're less likely to question him, becausehe's your boss in a position of authority.
The same is true if you’re, say, in a museum,and a member of staff asks you to do something,
you're likely to follow what they do, becausethey're in a position of authority. So there's a
myriad of biases we've identified, and use thatto try and frame how we think about how people
(06:39):
might make mistakes during a fire evacuation.OF: I see. So you might model the behaviour of
what that guard in the museum would do. Andthen subsequently model what people around
that guard would do. And then so on and so forth.MK: Exactly. And then we try and associate some
kind of probability of doing certain things.OF: Right.
And then we'd run the simulation multiple times. And sometimes the guard might do one thing,
(07:02):
sometimes he might do another.OF: And then work out,
do you have the right safety precautions,no matter what that guard did, basically.
Exactly. We're not trying to design for one event, one fire. We’re trying to design
for a range of events, to make it a resilientdesign. So we run a series of different scenarios,
maybe fires happening in different places, maybepeople behaving in different ways. And then we
(07:24):
try and say "OK, now we know this, where are highlevels of congestion? Why aren't people using this
exit? How can we get them to use this exit?” Andthen we might be able to either change the design
of the actual building itself, or we mightchange the management procedures to try and get
more people to do a certain type of behaviour.OF: The more you talk about it, the more
(07:45):
you think “Well of course this has to dowith computer science. Like, how did fire
engineers do it beforehand? Because you can'tsimulate fires without this kind of modelling.
Absolutely. I mean, traditionally before computer models, people just followed
building fire codes. These are general rules- almost like heuristics - that you build your
building according to. Like, you need thismany exits if you have this many people.
That's still primarily the way you designbuildings at the moment. The problem is that
(08:09):
these building codes are not very flexible. Whenyou want to build very different designs, and you
can't follow the code, how do you demonstrate it'sOK? Say, for example, I'm building an airport. And
my travel distance is longer than what it saysin the code. What I can do is I can run something
called an evacuation model, where I simulatepeople in the building evacuating, and then I
also simulate the fire. And that simulatesthe smoke spread, and smoke falling down.
(08:34):
And then I can say “Look, everyone can evacuatein all these different fire scenarios.” So looking
at fires in different areas, different sizes.And then I can say “Look, in all these possible
fire scenarios - or probable fire scenarios -people can still get out. So we think it's safe”.
OF (08:47):
Thinking about that example you said about the ‘Authority Bias’, that makes me think about the
cultural differences between how people behave.Because you would imagine that in a country where
societally you are more inclined to followauthority, you'd have a different outcome to a
more sort of liberal and devil-may-care society.MK: Absolutely. And I think in the World Trade
(09:12):
Center 911 attacks, where you had companiescoming from different cultural backgrounds,
they observed some of the cultural differences.OF: Oh really.
MK (09:20):
So I think anecdotally there were some companies that were predominately American. And
before the alarm even went off, a numberof people said “I'm getting out of here,
I'm not waiting to be told what to do.” A moreindividualistic way of thinking. And conversely,
there were Japanese companies, and theyall waited until their boss told them
that they should evacuate. So culture, byall means, definitely plays a part in how
(09:44):
people behave during an evacuation. It's ahard one to nail down, “What is culture?”
Because it's such a myriad ofthings, and even within a country,
there can be different sub-cultures as well.OF: Then when you're plugging this into
your programme, you do take intoaccount the differences? Or does
it all kind of wash out in the end?MK: Generally, we would create a more
(10:07):
simplified version. So the key thing is gettingthe right numbers of people in. Typically,
in the model, we’ll be conservative. Sowe'll totally max out the population.
And then how we’d accommodatedifferent demographic groups are
things like changing speeds and things.OF: Well, you mentioned the example of
the individualist society, let's saylike an American. And then the more
(10:28):
follow-the-authority society like Japanese.Where in that spectrum does China lie?
I'm not familiar with the latest literature in China. I have read the cultural map, though.
And I think China seems to be a bit higher, closerto Japan, whereby people are more likely to follow
authority. Compared to, say, the UK or the US.OF: Well, you are an expert, then, in the
(10:50):
behaviour of people in fires, especially when itcomes to lifts and escalators. Is that the way
that I would sum up your specialisation?MK: Yes, that's true.
OF (10:58):
Which to me, seems like a puzzler. Because the one thing that I kinda thought I knew was that,
in a fire don't use the lift, right?MK: Absolutely. I mean, one of the
reasons there was an interest in my research wasbecause we're building ever higher buildings. And
asking people to walk down flights of stairs isquite strenuous, certainly as we have an ageing
(11:18):
population and increased numbers of disabledpeople who can't necessarily very easily use
stairs. And lifts potentially provide aviable means to get a lot of people out.
The key findings from the research were thatyou have to use a combination of lifts and
stairs. You don't just only use lifts. Otherwise,people will be waiting forever to use a lift.
(11:39):
Generally for a very super high-rise building… So,the higher the building, the more benefit it would
be to provide lifts. I think, low-rise buildingsdon't generally benefit for throughput. And the
other finding was that it generally helps touse something called ‘Shuttle Floors’ or ‘Sky
Lobbies’. So you're shuttling your lifts betweencertain fixed floors. And what that means is,
(12:00):
people will typically walk down the stairs to thenext sky lobby, and then they would take the lift.
And what that means is that you get this processhappening in parallel, whereby some people are
being evacuated in lifts, and some people arewalking down to get the lift. And that staggers
their arrival to the lift lobby, it meansyou don't have as big crowds in the lobbies.
And we could reduce evacuation times by up to 33%.I mean, there's a load of other ones. Occupied
(12:24):
time feel shorter than unoccupied time. This iswhy in lift lobbies, they typically put mirrors,
TV screens, they give you something to do whileyou're waiting. And then the time feels much
shorter than had you had nothing to do.OF: Fascinating. Which has nothing to
do with fire, right?MK: Exactly. But if we
can make people feel less anxious whilstthey're waiting during a fire evacuation,
that can generally help improve things.It also will help improve the likelihood
(12:46):
they'll choose to use a lift ifthey're prepared to wait longer,
compared to choosing to walk down a stair.OF: Well when it comes, then, to big buildings,
this is very relevant to a city like Shanghai,where we are. Because I'm imagining that your
job is different depending on the location.MK: Yeah, absolutely. And also the people we
deal with when we're designing the buildingsis also different. Quite often, cities would
(13:09):
have their own fire codes, on top of which totailor for specific fire challenges. So there
are certain parts of China which are particularlymountainous, so they will try and consider the
mountains within certain fire codes, and may berelax some of the other requirements. Because you
can't necessarily do all the things you'd normallydo because you're building your high-rise building
on the side of a mountain or something.OF: Can you think of some examples of
(13:32):
some of the buildings that you have helpedwith their fire engineering here in China,
in the last eight years?MK: Sure, perhaps one of
the most notable ones that I can thinkof is the Starbuck Shanghai Roastery.
Oh, right. MK
Yeah. MK
projects I helped with. At the time, it was thelargest Starbucks in the world. A unique challenge
of that is that they have this big processing areafor making coffee. That's quite unique. I also
(13:56):
work on helping with train design.OF: Oh right.
MK (13:59):
Helping the fire engineering design for trains. And we helped some Chinese rolling
stock manufacturers design trains for theU.S. Trains are very different to buildings.
And whilst they are much smaller, they're justas complicated in terms of fire engineering.
OF (14:14):
Because? MK
down to a very small scale. So everything that canburn on a train has to be tested for flammability,
smoke, toxicity, and heat release rate.OF: Yeah, this is where if I know too much
about fires, I start to get a bit worried.MK: Well actually I'd say, everything is
controlled on a train. From a lot ofthe materials, everything that can burn.
Whereas in a building, quite often there'll besome level of uncertainty about exactly what
(14:39):
the tenants are going to put in the building.Generally, they have to follow certain fire
code requirements, but that's done later onin the design process. Whereas with trains,
everything's kind of done at the same time.OF: And so when it comes down to what you're
doing here every day in China, whatis the ‘day in the life’ in that case?
MK (14:55):
I get to work on different projects. Sometimes I'll dip into one project… I’m
doing some evacuation modelling for a hotelat the moment. I've just finished one of a
shopping mall in 成都 [Chéngdū]. I'm involved inan airport project in Cambodia, and this'll be
looking at not just evacuations, but also materialtesting requirements; what happens when the client
(15:16):
can't necessarily meet certain fire codes;do we think it's OK; how can we show it's OK?
So a whole range of things.OF: And in terms of the codes,
would you say that the codes here areas strict as you'd find elsewhere?
Well, a lot of other countries have been looking at fire engineering for 50-100 years.
(15:36):
And you think, you know, what was happening inChina 100 years ago, they're in a different place.
This said, a lot of the latest research is comingout of China. A lot of Chinese universities are
contributing to the latest developments withinfire engineering. And the codes are developing.
And also, they'll develop in different waysbecause they're presented with new challenges in
China that perhaps you get less of in other partsof the world. You get super high-rise buildings,
(16:01):
600 metre buildings. You're gettingairports being built, a lot,
at the moment. And there are just fewer airportsbeing built in other parts of the world.
OF (16:09):
I can see why you are still passionate about it. It seems to involve so many different things
like the engineering side; the computermodelling side; the behaviour analysis side;
the customer relations managementside. Maybe I'm in the wrong job.
And I'm looking at your object. You know,when was the last time that you yourself have
(16:30):
worn something like this? Have you been involvedin anything like real-life modelling like that? Or
is that not really relevant to your world?MK: I haven't been involved in an actual
fire. I was involved in an evacuation of myapartment block. And I live on the 20th floor,
so I had to evacuate down the stairs. I wasthe first one out, thank god. I would die
of embarrassment if I wasn’t.OF: Die of something, yeah.
MK (16:52):
Yeah. But thankfully, I mainly look at other people involved in evacuations,
and try and understand what's going on.OF: Good. Thank you, Michael.
Thank you. OF
[Part 2]OF: Do you know what,
I haven't had enough fire puns. I have to think
about more fire puns as we go on.MK: There’s the classic one of
(17:12):
‘Burning questions, model answers’.OF: OK, we're on to Part 2, Michael.
I’m ready. OF
what is your favourite China-related fact?MK: So my favourite China-related fact is to
do with the Three Gorges Dam.OF: Oh, yeah.
In 湖北 [Húběi] Province. It's a massive hydroelectric dam. It's the biggest in the world.
(17:34):
And it displaces large amounts of water. And NASAhave done a study and demonstrated it displaces so
much water that it actually slows the rotation ofthe Earth by a few decimals of a microsecond. So
it actually slows down time.OF: What?
I didn't believe this, I had to go and look it up on the NASA website. It's true.
(17:54):
It's amazing.OF: Gosh, OK.
Do you remember that Superman movie where he…MK: …Goes around so fast. Yeah, yeah,
he goes around so fast, yeah.OF: And then he reverses time.
I think it must be to do with that.MK: He should have gone to 湖北 [Húběi],
you know.OF: Do you
have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?MK: Yes. I actually love learning Chinese,
(18:16):
and part of it is learning Chinese sayings. AndI think one of my favourite sayings is 精诚所至，金石为开
[jīngchéng suǒzhì, jīnshí wéikāi].OF: Wait a minute, wait a minute.
I don't know that one, say it again slowly?MK: 精诚所至，金石为开 [Jīngchéng suǒzhì, jīnshí wéikāi].
OF (18:31):
Naah, I don't know it. MK
No, it sounds good to me. MK
‘With complete sincerity, you can open metalor stone’. You can overcome any challenge.
And the reason I like it is, it's quite inspiring,which I think is quite useful when you're learning
Chinese, you need that inspiration. Andalso it's a derivation of my Chinese name,
(18:52):
which is 金诚 [Jīn Chéng].OF: Oh nice.
MK (18:54):
金 [Jīn] sounds similar, phonetically, to my actual English name, Kinsey. Yeah.
OF (18:58):
And it’s ‘gold’, right? MK
And ‘golden honesty is 金诚 [Jīn Chéng].OF: Oh and that's your… Oh, that is beautiful.
Because you are quite sincere as a person. I'mfeeling that, you know, you're the kind of person
who says what he means and means what he says.MK: I do. I try to. And sometimes it works. And
sometimes - certainly in Chinese culture, with the
concept of saving face - itdoesn't always go down well.
(19:19):
Alright, I'm going to try and learn that one. Although the ones
that are eight characters, I always findthose much harder. I prefer the four ones.
MK (19:25):
Absolutely. I mean, another one I quite like is 拍马屁 [pāimǎpì].
OF (19:29):
Wait a minute, wait a minute. 拍 [[Pāi], OK, 马 [mǎ], OK. Is that to do with a horse’s fart?
MK (19:35):
拍马屁 [Pāimǎpì] is ‘stroke the horse’s arse’ or ‘pat the horse’s arse’.
OF (19:39):
OK. MK
Oh. MK
and you use just a few words of Chinese, theygo “Woah, 哇塞 [wasāi], your Chinese is amazing”.
And so “No, 不用拍我马屁 [bùyòng pāi wǒ mǎ pì].”OF: Oh wow.
MK (19:53):
You don't need to stroke my horse’s arse, you don’t need to suck up.
OF (19:55):
Which is again in idiomatic Chinese. So in a way, you're also
saying again how good your Chinese is.MK: Yeah, it doesn't manage expectations
very well. It can get a bit hairy sometimes.OF: Right. OK. I think I have to have a
warning now on this episode. I can't believeyou've talked about horses’ arses, Michael.
You're supposed to be a gentleman.MK: I apologise.
We are representing the Brits here.
(20:19):
What is your favourite destination within China?MK: I think one of my favourite places
is 浙江 [Zhèjiāng], as a province. Lots of placesof natural beauty. It's so close to Shanghai as
well. I've been whitewater rafting there, I'vebeen hiking there, you can go to 杭州 [Hángzhōu],
I've been to different islands just off the coastof 浙江 [Zhèjiāng]. It's absolutely beautiful. And
(20:40):
you can do it all within a weekend, if you livein Shanghai. I think it's an amazing place.
If you left China, what would you miss the most, and what would you miss the least?
MK (20:49):
I think I would miss the convenience of living here. You can find almost anyone to do anything.
Like fix things almost at any time of the day,or any day of the week. Actually, last night,
I forgot my keys. And I know a guy who will comeat any time. And it was slightly late at night,
and he would just get up, come, and then hewould come and open the door, and that was it.
OF (21:10):
Wow. MK
of the things I would miss the least is thelanguage barrier, and certainly being able
to connect with certain people on certain levels.Conversely, it motivates me to want to learn more.
Is there anything that still surprises you about life in China?
MK (21:25):
I think one of the things which surprises me still is how kind and welcoming people are,
especially to foreigners. You know, fromwhen I have problems working out an app on
my phone, or I'm trying to pay for a bus ride,someone will come and help me. And I haven't
even asked for it. It still amazes me.OF: I think this could also be a function
of your exuding sincerity, Michael.MK: Well, I try and… Whatever I do,
(21:48):
I try and do it with a smile. And, youknow, and just look clueless. I've hammered
down the clueless look quite well now, so…OF: No but I mean, absolutely you're right. If
you do approach it with that attitude - and you'resmiling, you’re not getting frustrated - I think
China is a place that will repay that.MK: Absolutely.
OF (22:05):
What is your favourite place to go out, to eat or drink or just hang out?
MK (22:09):
One of the places - and I don't know if this is a bit of a cop-out - but it's Pie Society.
OF (22:14):
Oh, yes I know it. MK
There’s a couple, I think. MK
live not far from there. And they do loads ofpies, Sunday roast, and a lot of ‘pub grub’ food.
Yes. When I first found it out, I was like “What’s this place?” And I walked in
and got a steak and kidney pie withbaked beans on the side. I was just
(22:35):
like “This is the happiest day of my life.”MK: It's always interesting when I invite
some of my Chinese friends, perhaps, to goand try it as well, because I’m like “Look,
you can try British food”.OF: Although we're
not world famous for our cuisine.MK: No. No, normally it's fish and chips.
Oh god. The next question, it’s a big one. What is your favourite WeChat sticker?
MK (22:54):
OK, so this… OF
There you go. OF
So this sticker is actually formed of three parts - three stickers - that you have to sort of
put together in the right order. And it's of thissmall, fat, Chinese child belly dancing, almost.
So I love this because it's quitehappy. It was one of the first ones I've
(23:17):
seen which are multi-component stickers.OF: Yes.
And I use it, I guess, when I want to say that I'm happy,
or to perhaps exemplify my dancing style.OF: Well, I would like to see you dance like this.
Very good. And it's cheating aswell, because it's three, not one.
True. OF
send one of them? It must be a bit weird.MK: I’ve sent them in the wrong order once,
(23:39):
and it was like “Oh, recall, recall,” you know?OF: Nice.
What is your go-to song to sing at KTV?MK: So I know one Chinese song. It's called ‘爱我别走
[Àiwǒ biézǒu].’ It's a love song.OF: As in ‘Love me don’t go’?
‘Love me don't go’. OF
Exactly. It's a ballad, fairly simple. OF
can actually read the bloody lyrics.MK: Exactly. And I've memorised the
(24:02):
lyrics as well. I can just about read themnow. There's no rapping, which is good for
me for my background growing up in the meanstreets of Surrey. Yeah, it's just about
manageable. You know, I can almost sound OK.OF: Yes, those are the ones who need to learn.
Because I've been trying to find good songs,but people always like the upbeat ones,
and they’re too fast.MK: True.
OF (24:23):
And finally, what other China-related sources of information do you rely on?
MK (24:28):
Generally, I don't read the news as much since being here. I've just noticed it takes
up a lot of time developing opinions aboutthings I don't necessarily need to have.
OF (24:38):
Yes. MK
So the South China Morning Post, The Atlantic,The Washington Post, things like that.
And in terms of your professional life, are there industry websites or
other things that you would have a look at?MK: Yeah, there are scientific journals. There's
Fire Technology.OF: Ooh.
MK (24:59):
Yeah, I'm also a reviewer for some of these journals as well. So naturally I get given papers
to review, often ones from authors in China.People doing research in tiny parts of fire
engineering - looking at combustion, pyrolysis,smoke dynamics, structural response - whereas I'm
more interested in looking at how people behave.OF: Michael, thank you so much.
(25:20):
Thank you. OF
interview in the next season of Mosaic of China.MK: I will nominate Dr. Maya Shinozaki,
who's a colleague and a friend. She solvesreally complicated engineering problems
using computer modelling as well. I thinkshe'll be really interesting to talk with.
OF (25:39):
All right. I'm intimidated already, but I look forward to meeting Maya. Thank you
so much, Michael.MK: Thank you.
[Outro]OF:
Well it's taken us until Episode 25 of Season 02in this series, but I think we've just finally
managed to reach peak diversity (25:54):
two geeky middle-aged English home counties white dudes.
At least Michael has a PhD and acorporate career to his credit,
all I've got is this podcast and anintermediate swimming certificate.
Maybe what's really going on is that I need toadmit that talking about steak and kidney pie with
(26:14):
someone from Surrey is making me feel a little bithomesick. It's been 18 months since I last stepped
foot outside of mainland China. And while I knowthere are people listening who have had a much
harder time than the likes of me over the lastyear, I feel like I need to at least speak for all
those other people who are in this same situation.Hang on in there everyone. And if you feel like
(26:37):
you've been going just that extra notch morecrazy over the last few months, you're not alone.
OK, back to today's episode, and you can see theimages that go with it on all the usual places:
on Instagram, Facebook, WeChat, the website,and Patreon. And speaking of Patreon, there's
now another place you can hear the PREMIUM versionof the show, and that's on Apple Podcasts. So just
(27:02):
type 'Mosaic of China PREMIUM' into your ApplePodcasts app, and you'll now be able to subscribe
straight through there. Here are some clipsfrom today's full-length version of the show...
[Clip 1]MK: What, am I supposed to
drop my life and not come back?[Clip 2]
MK (27:16):
Known waits feel shorter than unknown waits. So if you tell people
how long they're going to wait, that makesit feel like it's a shorter period of time.
[Clip 3]MK: We're
at 70 floors up! Are you gonna choose not touse a lift when we can get out really quick?
[Clip 4]MK: Ships are very different. If there's a fire,
you can't just get off the ship.OF: Right.
[Clip 5]MK: ‘Bandwagon Bias’. You're more likely to
do something if someone else is doing it.[Clip 6]
OF (27:38):
OK, so there's more to being a fire engineer than just looking at the height of doors.
MK (27:43):
Absolutely. [End of Audio Clips]
And that's all for today. Mosaic of China isme, Oscar Fuchs, with artwork by Denny Newell.
Coming up is a catch-up from Season 01 withanother PhD, it's with Dr. Srinivas Yanamandra
from Season 01 Episode 15. If you enjoyedtoday's chat with Michael and you haven't yet
heard Srini's original episode, you shoulddefinitely check it out, not least because
(28:07):
there's also a surprising connection to the ThreeGorges Dam. And I'll see you back here next week.
[Catch-Up Interview]OF:
Srini, it's great to see you again.SY: My pleasure Oscar, thank you so
(28:28):
much. You gave me so much visibility,so I'm always thankful to you.
OF (28:31):
Oh, not at all, I'm thankful to you. Your episode was one of the ones that people do talk
about still, because it was so unusual. Well,I wanted to check up on you and to ask you
what has happened, especially during COVID.SY: During COVID, I have got a little more
depth into epidemics. And I did a couple ofsessions on finance technology and epidemics,
(28:51):
how to link between epidemics and asystemic crisis that the banks face.
And that has actually led me to finally enrolmyself into a Master's in global bioethics.
Wow. SY
June 2020, and I'm into… Like, it is a two and ahalf year programme. I enrolled myself because I'm
so excited to understand how ethical dimensionscan come into the biotech space, actually. So…
(29:16):
Amazing. And you're doing that over the internet, I guess.
SY (29:20):
Indeed, indeed, there is this UNESCO programme, so a United Nations programme,
and they offer it through a University in Mexico,Anáhuac University. And I enrolled, it is an
online global bioethics Master's programme.OF: Well, that is a great match for you.
Yeah. OF
with computing, with the pandemic.SY: Yes.
OF (29:39):
And do you already have any early insights? SY
good in terms of what we regularly read innewspapers. Whether you have to impose someone to
wear a mask, or you don't have to impose someoneto wear a mask; the kind of ethics in terms of
rationing of the number of beds, for example, forthe COVID patients. So there are a lot of ethical
issues that have evolved and we are now grapplingwith, which maybe we haven't really paid that much
(30:04):
attention to in the pre-COVID era.OF: Yes, that's fascinating.
And then what about with the bank? So ofcourse, your title is that you're the chief
of Compliance at the New Development Bank, whichis a multilateral bank here in Shanghai. So what
was the situation there during the Coronavirus?SY: Indeed as a bank, I think we have really
geared up ourselves in terms of the taskthat is at hand. While we have been set
(30:27):
up primarily for our infrastructureand sustainable development projects,
there is an emergency that is required interms of assisting our member countries
catching up with this fight against theCoronavirus. So the bank did its bit in
terms of granting emergency response loans, acouple of billions of dollars in each country
to fight the pandemic immediately, and also asa kind of emergency economic response. So each
(30:50):
country by country we went through, we understoodwhat kind of programmes the governments are doing,
and whatever little bit that we could do in termsof supporting the country programmes, we were
able to do that. That’s a massive response,which is important considering the stature of
the bank as a development organisation, yeah.OF: And those were loans to other countries,
or to countries within BRICS themselves?SY: Because this bank is set up by the BRICS
(31:11):
- and our member countries are BRICS countriesas of now - so the loans have gone to them.
Right, understood. And then what about, then, in the workings of the bank?
Everyone within the bank represents thosefive different countries - each with their
different status of Coronavirus preventionand cure - how did you manage to work with
your co-workers? Was it just the same as usual?SY: Indeed, we have a brilliant way of, like,
(31:35):
work-from-home arrangements, our cloud systemswere perfectly up to the task. So the support
system that we had - in terms of the advisorythat we received, and in terms of the families
that keep coming from different parts of theworld to Shanghai - as a hosting organisation,
and also as a host government - we havebeen taken very good care of, both by
the bank and by the municipal government here.OF: Right. And then you've talked very much in
(32:00):
the abstract then, what about you in termsof your own learning? Have there been any
‘aha’ moments that you've had yourself?SY: The best ‘aha’ moment is I was able
to do a TEDx Talk.OF: Oh you did?
SY (32:11):
Yeah, I did a TEDx talk in October. And that was a real ‘aha’ moment, because
doing a TEDx is like a phenomenallyimportant item in the bucket list.
And the topic was on ‘Swans, Shocks andSerendipity’. So the Black Swan events which
have happened in the last two decades - like the2001 terrorist attack, the 2008 financial crisis,
(32:33):
and the 2019 COVID pandemic - so there arethree black swan events in financial history.
So how each of these events have led to aFinTech discovery. So serendipitously, these
crisis events have led to some important FinTechdiscoveries. That's available on YouTube, and I’m
marketing myself now if anybody's interested inthat, they can get onto YouTube and listen to
(32:54):
that. I think it's about a 17 minute talk.OF: Great. And of course there are three
examples because… ‘omne triumperfectum’. You taught me that.
Yes, indeed. OF
you. You haven't lost any of your enthusiasm,I was expecting no less from you. And we are
(33:14):
going to be releasing this episode at the sametime as a new episode in Season 02. And sadly,
the person who you referred couldn't be in thesecond season of Mosaic of China. Although it
wasn't really his fault, you have a new leaderat the bank, and we just couldn't get our
diaries to align. But thank you anyway forthe referral. I did manage to find a very nice
replacement, so I hope that you enjoy the episode.SY: Yeah, let me look forward to this. And
(33:38):
thank you so much. In fact, this is a phenomenalpodcast. And I'm also very much thrilled to do it.
OF (33:44):
Well, it's a pleasure to have you in the project and I look forward to continuing our
relationship. Thank you Srini.SY: Thank you.
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