November 21, 2022 • 41 mins
There are some people who view video gaming at best as a time-wasting distraction, and at worst as a vice. But in listening to today's episode with the game designer Simon Chapuis, even detractors will understand the passion, creativity and teamwork that it takes to usher a game from conception to market. Simon's career has taken him from France to Germany, to Spain and finally to China, where he is now a Senior Game Designer at Ubisoft in the city of Chengdu. His story not only illustrates the dynamic and international nature of the gaming industry, but also the complexity and pressure that can accompany this collaborative endeavour. The episode also includes a catch-up interview with: Ajay Jain from Season 02 Episode 21 https://mosaicofchina.com/season-02-episode-21-ajay-jain Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 01:31 - Part 1 25:51 - Part 2 33:50 - Outro 36:04 - Catch-Up Interview Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at: https://mosaicofchina.com/season-03-episode-11-simon-chapuis Join the community: Instagram https://instagram.com/oscology LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/mosaicofchina Facebook https://facebook.com/mosaicofchina WeChat https://mosaicofchina.com/wechat
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
[Trailer]SC: When they play the game, they need to
know is it supposed to be like that, or isit a bug?
“No, no, this is a bug.”
“Oh.”
“Oh no, no.
Actually this is a feature.”
And sometimes a bug can become a feature.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina.
I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
(00:22):
Ever since Season 01 Episode 05, when JorgeLuzio said that there are 765 million active
gamers in China, I’ve been wanting to coverthis industry as part of the Mosaic of China.
But I needed to find somebody who was nottoo junior, not too senior; someone who has
been in China for a while, but has also workedin other countries; and someone who knows
(00:46):
the big corporate world, as well as the smallerindie world.
Well it took me until Season 03 Episode 11to find the right guy, and that’s Simon.
It’s like the Goldilocks of gaming.
Or since Simon is French, I should say “Boucled’or’.
On the topic of language, just a few notesfor non-native English speakers in this one:
(01:07):
’IP’ is ‘Intellectual Property’, ‘QA’is ‘Quality Assurance’, and ‘UI’ is
‘User Interface’.
Simon speaks amazing English, just one wordwhich is not very clear towards the end of
Part 1 is ‘hierarchy’.
Alright, enough of this lag.
Let’s boot up the episode before we allragequit.
(01:29):
[Part 1]OF: Simon, thank you very much for having
me.
SC (01:34):
Thank you.
Thank you for inviting me.
OF (01:36):
Your name, how do I pronounce it, ‘Simon Chapuis’?
SC (01:39):
Yeah, ‘Chapuis’.
OF (01:40):
‘Chapuis’.
‘Simon Chapuis’.
SC (01:42):
Yeah.
Makes sense.
OF (01:44):
And why don't you explain where we are right now.
SC (01:48):
We are in the city of 成都 [Chéngdū], in my wife’s office, the Chinese branch
of a French company importing wine from Bordeaux.
OF (01:58):
Right.
The reason I'm asking you that is becauseit actually explains the crazy situation that
we're in.
Things are always unpredictable when it comesto travel, when it comes to any kind of arrangement.
And that's certainly affected our situationhere today.
I've come from the other side of China tobe here.
We have cases here in 成都 [Chéngdū],I can't go to your home because your home
(02:22):
is near that area.
SC (02:23):
Yes.
OF (02:24):
You - because you're in that area - you can't come to my hotel.
SC (02:27):
Yeah.
OF (02:28):
So we have decided to meet in this office of your wife.
Offices usually have very harsh walls, whereechoes can be very difficult for recording.
But luckily, we're in this very untidy roomfull of wine bottles and boxes.
So I hope the sound will be OK.
SC (02:45):
Yes.
OF (02:47):
Maybe we'll hear traffic outside.
So you're going to hear some sounds of 成都[Chéngdū] in this recording.
SC (02:52):
Yeah, very authentic.
OF (02:53):
Very authentic.
With that in mind, let’s start.
So Simon, I'm going to ask you the questionthat I ask everyone first, which is: ‘What
object did you bring that in some way typifiesyour life here in China?’
SC (03:06):
It's a gamepad.
A video game controller.
I bought it in 成都 [Chéngdū] actually,I needed a gamepad because all of my gamepads
actually were in France, and I needed to playgames here.
So I bought it, and now it's been part ofmy life in 成都 [Chéngdū] since 2018.
OF (03:23):
Very good.
And it's a big hint about what we're goingto talk about.
SC (03:29):
Exactly.
OF (03:30):
Because you're not just a gaming enthusiast, are you?
SC (03:32):
No, it's also my job.
OF (03:34):
Right.
SC (03:35):
I’m a game designer, so I make games.
OF (03:37):
OK.
Well, let's put this console in the middleof the table.
Because actually, I do recognise it, it looksexactly like the Nintendo console.
And let me start with the most basic question,what is a game designer?
SC (03:51):
The game designer is the guy or the girl who defines the rules of the video game.
So how the character should move, jump, whatshould be the enemies and the different traps,
the kind of actions you can do to defeat theenemies, basically how you play the game.
OF (04:09):
Mmm.
And how does that process even start?
You have a blank sheet of paper and someonesays “Design a game”?
SC (04:16):
It could be like that, it depends on whether you work for publishers, or whether you're
an indie developer.
So the first idea - if you're working in abig company - it could come from the Game
Director, who would say “OK, there is abig trend in the market, we are looking for
this kind of game, could you make a pitch.”
Then it's up to the game designer to workon a pitch, to propose an idea for a specific
(04:41):
type of game.
Sometimes we start like that.
And sometimes a company can already have awell-known IP, and you're supposed to design
the next instalment of this IP.
So the basics are already here, it's up tothe game designer to find new features that
will make this game maybe better than theprevious one.
Or at least different enough, so it's notjust like a ‘1.5 version’ of the previous
(05:04):
game.
OF (05:05):
I see.
So your skills are what?
Are you someone who is skilled in computing?
Are you someone who is skilled in creatingworlds?
Are you skilled in art?
Like, what is your skillset?
SC (05:17):
A little bit of everything, but a game designer can come from different fields.
Some started as programmers, some of themstarted as artists, and some of them started
as something totally different.
It could be anything.
The common point is that we love to make games.
And we want to say something with our games.
(05:39):
Yeah, I studied art, I also studied programminga little bit.
But most of the time, I don't really needthese skills.
Mostly I use Word and Excel.
OF (05:49):
Word and Excel?
SC (05:50):
Yes.
OF (05:51):
Oh so actually, you're writing documentation.
SC (05:52):
A lot.
OF (05:53):
Oh.
Wow, OK.
SC (05:55):
And you need to think about every situation.
Sometimes it's hard to imagine that “OhOK, if you do this, and that, what will happen?”
“Oh, I don't know, I didn't think aboutit.
We need to try and see what will happen.”
OF (06:08):
Yes, of course.
SC (06:09):
Of course, it's not possible to design everything right from the start.
Because it's impossible to imagine everything.
So you need to test and iterate a lot.
In big companies, usually there are multiplegame designers.
So some of them are focused more on battlesystems, battle mechanics; some of them are
more focused on driving vehicles; some ofthem focused on the story.
(06:31):
You have lots of people working on specificaspects of the game.
And you have a Game Director or a Lead GameDesigner who is making sure that everything
makes sense and works together.
OF (06:42):
So what are you?
SC (06:43):
I'm currently a Senior Designer, so I can overlook everything on the project.
But of course, I didn't start like that.
When I started, I was working on level design.
Level design is another branch of game design.
Usually I'm mostly focused on game mechanics.
OF (07:00):
OK.
And you said before that it could be an indiecompany, it could be a big company.
So what is your situation now?
SC (07:08):
Now I'm working in a big big big company.
Yeah, one of the biggest video game companiesin the world actually, Ubisoft.
OF (07:15):
Ubisoft.
SC (07:16):
They have an office here in 成都 [Chéngdū].
OF (07:19):
Yeah.
I know Ubisoft, yeah, it’s a French company,correct?
SC (07:22):
Yes.
OF (07:23):
There you go.
Well, now it’s starting to make sense, whya French guy is here in 成都 [Chéngdū].
OK, so in a company like Ubisoft, you're somebodywho is writing the documentation.
Who are you writing it for?
SC (07:35):
Yes.
So, multiple people.
Programmers.
So they need to understand how the game works,and the game logic, and everything.
OF (07:42):
So what is a programmer?
SC (07:43):
The programmer is the guy who is doing all the code.
Typing a lot of lines of text that I don'treally understand.
OF (07:50):
Right.
So translating what you're writing in thedocument into what actually happens on the
computer screen.
SC (07:55):
Yes.
OF (07:56):
OK.
You don't necessarily specify exactly howit looks?
They have some kind of freedom to interpretyour words?
SC (08:02):
Yeah, Yeah.
This is true, yes.
OF (08:04):
OK.
SC (08:05):
So I give the intention
And then it's up to the programmer to be creativeand find the right way to create what I would
like to have in the game.
OF (08:17):
I see.
So if you're writing a document for a programmer,what kind of details do you include?
SC (08:22):
Usually we have flowcharts.
You have one action, and you have a line linkingthe first action to the second action, and
everything.
And a lot of bullet points, to be clear andconcise.
OF (08:33):
Yes.
Which I guess is even more important whenyou're working in an international environment,
where people are speaking different languages.
SC (08:40):
Yeah, exactly.
OF (08:41):
Just make it clear.
But even if you are making it clear, I'm stillguessing there is a lot of back-and-forth,
back-and-forth.
SC (08:48):
Always, always.
We need to always work together.
It's not like “Oh I wrote my documentation,take it and do your stuff.
And when you're done, send it to me, and we'llsee if that works.”
No, there is always communication, and weneed to ensure that everything is clear for
everyone, so that we are following the samepath.
Because making a video game is expensive,it takes time, deadlines are always very short.
(09:14):
So we cannot afford to waste time.
And we have to be clear right from the start,and communicate a lot.
Yes.
OF (09:21):
Got it.
SC (09:22):
It’s very important.
OF (09:23):
That was for the programmers, what other teams do you collaborate with?
SC (09:25):
The artists, of course.
Artists are very important, because the artwould be the first thing that players will
see.
If they like the art, they might be interestedin the game, more than anything else.
Again, they have a lot of freedom to expressthe design through their art, I would say
the challenge for artists in the video gameindustry is not only to make something beautiful,
(09:48):
it's also about making games that can be easilyunderstood by the players.
So everything on the screen should convey,very clearly, its function.
And this is always a challenge.
Because sometimes you want to make somethingvery very beautiful - like beautiful animation,
it's very smooth - but when you play withthe gamepad, and you try to move forward for
instance, the animation is so smooth thatyou feel like the character is not moving
(10:12):
fast enough.
It's not responsive, it doesn't work as itshould.
That's when you have to accept that “Oh,the animation has too many frames.”
OF (10:20):
Oh.
SC (10:21):
So we need to cut some frames to make it more responsive.
OF (10:25):
Like, it's a balance between looking good, and then the practicality of playing the games.
SC (10:29):
Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
OF (10:31):
Interesting.
OK, so we have the programmers, we have theartists…
SC (10:33):
Yes.
OF (10:34):
Who else?
SC (10:35):
The ‘QA’, so the Quality Assurance: the guys who are testing the game a lot, to
find all the bugs.
OF (10:40):
Ah.
SC (10:41):
When they play the game, they need to know “Oh is it a bug, or is it a feature?
Is it supposed to be like that?”
Because sometimes you could wonder “Oh,it looks like a bug but I'm not sure.
Maybe that's what the designer wanted to do.”
No no, this is a bug.”
“Oh.”
“Oh no, no.
Actually this is a feature.”
And sometimes a bug can become a feature.
OF (10:57):
Ah right.
One of those happy accidents.
SC (11:00):
Yes.
But yeah, we work really very closely withthe QA.
Because although the designers must test thegame a lot, they don't always have the time
to track the bugs.
It's not our job.
OF (11:11):
Interesting.
But it sounds like your job, it kind of coversall of those things to some extent.
There's a little overlap with all of thesedifferent teams.
SC (11:19):
Yes.
Yeah.
And that's why - although I'm not a good artist,and I'm not a programmer at all - at least
because I studied that, I'm aware of the difficultiesand the problems in these fields.
So I can also anticipate some issues and Ican understand the rest of the team more clearly.
OF (11:37):
Right.
OK, why don't we use this as a chance to actuallytalk about your background?
How long have you been a game designer for?
SC (11:44):
I started 2007.
OF (11:46):
So what's that now?
It's about 15 years.
SC (11:49):
Yeah, 15 years.
I started in France in a small company inStrasbourg.
At the time, we were making games for theold-school mobile phones, with the keyboard
and everything.
OF (12:00):
Right, like the Snake game on the Nokia.
SC (12:02):
It was a little bit more advanced than that.
But that's the same idea, yes.
OF (12:06):
I'm ageing myself right there.
SC (12:08):
And that was very very interesting, because you have to make games for a device that is
not meant to be for video games.
OF (12:15):
For a creative person, that would be very interesting, yeah.
SC (12:19):
Yeah.
And after that, the time there was the NintendoDS and the Nintendo Wii.
We made some casual games on these consoles.
Then I moved to Germany.
Although I was working in Germany, I was livingin Strasbourg, so I was just crossing the
border every day.
It was an international company with peoplefrom all around the world.
Here we made games for console and PC.
(12:41):
Then I moved to Barcelona.
OF (12:42):
Oh right.
SC (12:43):
Yes, actually I worked at King, so the company behind Candy Crush.
Although in Barcelona we were developing othergames.
What we call ‘Match Three’ games, youmatch candies or dice…
OF (12:52):
Yes.
SC (12:53):
…Together to eliminate them.
OF (12:55):
There are so many versions of that, right?
SC (12:58):
Exactly.
And that was a very good experience, workingwith people from all around the world.
I think I became addicted to that, I loveworking with people from different countries,
different cultures.
And when I had the opportunity to move toChina, it's something I wanted a long long
time ago.
OF (13:14):
Ah.
Because some people, they end up in China.
Other people, they try to engineer their lifeto China.
SC (13:19):
Yes.
OF (13:20):
So you really wanted to be here.
SC (13:22):
Exactly, yes.
OF (13:23):
Why was that?
SC (13:24):
I have to admit that I'm in love with 王菲 [Wáng Fēi], this famous pop singer.
I really love her music.
OF (13:31):
Does your wife know about this?
SC (13:34):
Yeah.
And I was very much in love with the Chineseculture.
So I really wanted to come here.
And finally I'm here.
OF (13:42):
You applied for a job?
Or someone came to you?
SC (13:45):
I was very lucky because a colleague of mine used to work in a Chinese company.
And he told me "Oh, there is this companyI know, I work for them.
Maybe I could give you their contact.”
That's how I managed to get hired by the company,and I came here to 成都 [Chéngdū].
OF (14:03):
Right.
You're making it sound like it's a globalmarketplace for people like you.
Is that true?
SC (14:08):
Yeah, well I think it's something that I realised quite early in my career.
Because the industry is very tough.
You need to be open for travelling a lot.
OF (14:18):
Really?
SC (14:19):
Yes.
Because there are companies all around theworld, competition is fierce, and you need
to be open to relocate.
OF (14:27):
Well you say it's tough, so what do you mean?
Why is it so tough?
SC (14:31):
It's very hard to make games.
Lots of new people joining, they’re livetheir dream, and they are super happy.
But because it's so tough, people get burntout and they have to leave the industry.
Because it's really hard.
So maybe after two years, they will say “Ilove making, but I’m done with the industry.”
And that's how it is.
OF (14:51):
So I guess someone with 15 years experience is actually quite rare.
SC (14:55):
Yes, exactly, yeah.
Because we very often have very short deadlines.
And you need to test the game a lot.
And sometimes you get some feedback from theplayers that they didn't understand the game.
So we need to rework the whole feature.
So yeah, it’s very hard.
OF (15:12):
Yeah.
I'm guessing that a lot of it comes down tothis ‘X Factor’, right?
Because how do you know what is a good game?
Can you articulate what makes a good game?
SC (15:22):
Magic, maybe.
It's very hard.
Sometimes you think you're making a good game.
But when you have the final product, actuallyit's not that fun.
OF (15:32):
At which point in the process do you find that out?
Like, only at the end?
SC (15:36):
If it's a big project, at the very end.
Because a big project is made up of differentparts, and you need to wait for all these
parts to be together, to have an idea of whetherthe game works or not.
On a smaller project much earlier, becausethe scope is much smaller.
OF (15:53):
So I'm guessing these big projects, they're the ones that have extra budget, it’s important,
it’s in the spotlight.
And yet these are the ones that can go wrongthe most.
SC (16:01):
Yes.
Yeah yeah that’s true.
In video game history, they have several storiesabout big games - what we call ‘AAA Games’
- that failed.
Because although the budget was big and thedeadline was OK, the game wasn't interesting.
OF (16:17):
Yeah it's, I'm guessing, what keeps you interested in doing it for all these years.
Because you've been doing it for 15 years,and even you don't have the answer, right?
SC (16:25):
Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
I really don't know.
A game can hook you - for several years, maybesometimes - and you don't really know why.
You just enjoy the game.
OF (16:35):
I mean, do you still enjoy playing games?
Or are you, at this point, just sick of it?
SC (16:40):
No, I still love playing games.
But now I have some kind of curse.
Although I try to step back when I play gamesfor my own entertainment, the game designer
is always here.
OF (16:53):
Yes.
SC (16:54):
Telling me “They designed this like this.
And this like that.
What do you think about this?
Maybe they should have done it like this,or like that?”
OF (17:00):
Yes.
SC (17:01):
So it's really hard to forget my job now.
But I still enjoy video games, yes.
OF (17:05):
OK.
I mean, I guess for you, ‘making the game’is the game.
SC (17:09):
Yeah, actually, this is true.
You have to make choices, and a choice maybe rewarded.
Sometimes you make the wrong choice, and it'slike you're losing a life in a game.
So yeah.
And if you want to be a game designer, youneed to love making games.
It's very very important.
Because you're not just making games for yourself,you’re making games for everyone.
(17:31):
And because you love making games, you wantto share your game with everyone, so everyone
can enjoy it.
OF (17:36):
Well you're talking about everyone, so who are these people, the gamers?
Like basically, they’re your customers,your consumers.
What are they like?
Because in my mind, I think gamers can bevery passionate.
I would say they can go over the top whenthey're happy, and they can go over the top
when they're angry.
Is that your experience about your interfacewith your customers?
SC (17:56):
Well I was lucky enough, I think, to have players and gamers…
They love the games, and they love talkingabout games - and sharing their opinions and
thoughts about the game - but in a very open-mindedway.
So it's always about exchanging ideas andtrying to think of how we could improve games,
(18:17):
or imagine new ways to make games, and enjoygames.
So that's something I like a lot, to talkabout games.
OF (18:24):
Are they easy to please, or are they quite hard to please?
Because I'm guessing they're quite savvy,you know, they can tell a good game from a
bad game pretty easily.
SC (18:32):
Yes.
But what's super super fun, actually, whenyou make games is that players don't really
know what they want.
OF (18:39):
Oh right.
SC (18:40):
For instance, you have a game that is successful
And you want to make a number two (18:43):
OK.
So what should we do for the next episode?
So players will say “Oh, it has to be brandnew, because I don't want to buy the same
game every year.”
But at the same time, when you look at serieslike Call of Duty, it's kind of the same every
year.
So they like to have the same thing becausethey enjoy it; they want something new; but
(19:05):
if you propose something that is really reallynew and different they will say “Oh no,
it's not…
I prefer the old one, it was better.”
OF (19:12):
Yeah.
SC (19:13):
They never really know what they want.
OF (19:15):
Yeah.
That's interesting.
That must be frustrating for you as the designer.
Because if it is the fact that they want somethingwhich is similar, but just with a little tweak,
then it's not so much fun for you, right?
You're just doing little changes here andthere.
SC (19:28):
Yeah, when you are on the creative side, sometimes you would love to go wild and be
super creative.
The thing is, we work in an industry.
You cannot do just whatever you want, youcannot go wild.
You have to be realistic.
That's how it works.
And you need to get your salary every month,to pay your rent, to buy your food.
Making money shouldn't be a taboo, it's business,it's part of the industry.
(19:52):
But it's true that from a creative standpoint,we would like to have all of these crazy ideas.
“Oh it would be great to do this, and that.
Oh I would love to do this.”
But maybe it's not what the player wants.
OF (20:01):
Yeah.
SC (20:02):
So you have to find the right balance between what you think is innovative and creative
enough - and will bring some value to thegame - and what the market actually wants.
OF (20:11):
Yes, and I can imagine you as a designer, you can sometimes get very very focused.
To the extent that you kind of forget aboutthe customer.
And you need people around you to keep pushingyou in the right direction sometimes.
SC (20:23):
Yeah.
You don't realise that you're going too far.
Maybe here it's too complex.
It’s very important to always work in ateam, and to get as much feedback as possible.
OF (20:31):
Do game companies specialise in particular games?
And if so, what is Ubisoft famous for?
SC (20:37):
Yeah, so Ubisoft is very famous for ‘open-world’ games.
So there is Assassin's Creed, there is WatchDogs, there is Far Cry.
OF (20:45):
So these are all big budget games?
SC (20:47):
Yes.
Yeah yeah, big big budget.
They publish a lot of other games, casualgames like Monopoly, UNO.
OF (20:53):
Got it.
So what are you working on right now?
SC (20:56):
I’m currently working on UNO actually.
OF (20:57):
Oh, UNO.
SC (20:58):
Yeah.
OF (20:59):
I wonder if people in China know that game.
SC (21:01):
I think UNO is not that popular in China.
OF (21:04):
Right.
SC (21:05):
Although you can find games that look like UNO.
OF (21:07):
Oh I see.
SC (21:08):
But they are not UNO.
UNO is very very popular in the U.S.OF: Yeah.
So…
I mean, I know this game.
I used to play UNO when I was a child.
This is a simple game, right?
It's a very simple game, yes.
OF (21:20):
So as a designer, what can you do with this simple game?
This is actually quite a challenge, right?
SC (21:25):
Exactly, that’s always the biggest challenge for me.
Because people play this game for its simplicity.
UNO relies a lot on randomness.
So I want to bring more depth and more controlto the player, so they can build strategies
and just make the game a little bit more interesting.
And it's very hard because the moment youstart adding complexity to the game, then
(21:46):
you have to be careful, because maybe it'sno longer UNO.
OF (21:49):
Yes.
SC (21:50):
Maybe it's a different game.
OF (21:51):
Yeah.
SC (21:52):
We need to make a game that is still UNO, but at the same time we want to bring new
stuff.
OF (21:56):
And you mentioned that it's not well-known in China, so why are you doing UNO in China?
SC (22:00):
That’s a good question.
OF (22:02):
Because this is a game that's global.
Or maybe your key market will be the U.S.for example.
SC (22:07):
Yeah.
OF (22:08):
And yet here we are in 成都 [Chéngdū], making it.
SC (22:09):
Well that's the beautiful thing about video games, you can make a game for a market
in a totally different country.
OF (22:15):
Yeah.
SC (22:16):
Yeah, it’s very international.
OF (22:17):
So do you know why your company is here in 成都 [Chéngdū] of all places, and not
elsewhere in China?
SC (22:24):
They have an office in Shanghai.
I think they opened the office in 成都 [Chéngdū]14 years ago, something like that.
My guess would be that, in 成都 [Chéngdū]there are other video game companies here.
I guess they have a pool of designers, artists,programmers, people who have experience in
video games.
OF (22:43):
Right.
Yes, because you first came to 成都 [Chéngdū]with a Chinese company.
SC (22:47):
Yes, exactly.
OF (22:48):
Maybe that's a good question to ask you, then.
If you think about the differences, what wasyour experience like with the Chinese gaming
company?
SC (22:55):
The main difference, I would say, is the hierarchy was very important.
There is the boss, and then you have managers,then you have different layers of employees.
So it's very much like a pyramidal type ofhierarchy.
Whereas at Ubisoft, I think it's much moreflat.
The way you work with people, the way youcommunicate with people, is very different.
I cannot say one is better than the other.
(23:16):
I can say positive things in both, and negativethings in both.
When it's flat, it's easier to communicateand to convey the information to everyone.
When it's pyramidal, you have a strong directionto the company, and we stick to that.
It doesn't mean that other companies don'thave a strong vision, but the way you work
is just different.
OF (23:36):
Yeah.
I guess it means that there's not pushingideas back and forward.
SC (23:40):
Yeah.
OF (23:41):
So it’s more efficient in some way.
SC (23:42):
Yes.
OF (23:43):
Is there one game in your career that you're most proud of?
SC (23:48):
It's the game I worked on when I was in Germany.
It's a game that is called ‘Giana Sisters: Twisted Dreams’. (23:52):
undefined
So the first Giana Sisters was made for theCommodore 64.
OF (23:59):
Oh yes.
SC (24:00):
So this old computer.
OF (24:01):
Yes.
SC (24:02):
So we made a new episode in the series.
We managed to create something quite original.
And there was an issue is deadline and budget,so we had to do a Kickstarter.
So Kickstarter is this website where peoplecan give money to companies or indie developers,
to help them to fund their projects.
So it can be video games, music, comic books.
When you do a Kickstarter, you make a promiseto the player.
(24:25):
You tell them “OK, we need this amount ofmoney.
We want to release the game on this date.”
And people trust you.
OF (24:31):
And they're part of the project themselves from day one, right?
SC (24:34):
Yes, yes.
So you want to make a good game.
And you also want to keep your promise.
And I'm proud of this game, because we madea good game, it got good reviews, we released
it on time, we released it within the budget.
It's not perfect, but people still enjoyedit.
And they enjoyed it so much that this eventin the U.S. called Games Done Quick - you
(24:57):
have players who play the games as fast aspossible - I was very happy to see one day
that Giana Sisters was actually part of thisevent.
OF (25:05):
Oh.
SC (25:06):
Someone took the time to practice the game, to beat it as fast as possible.
And I was like “Yeah!
That's cool.
That's my game.”
OF (25:12):
Nice.
SC (25:13):
Yeah.
OF (25:14):
Let's finish this part of the conversation by talking about China.
What is the future going to be here in China?
SC (25:18):
We will see more and more free-to-play games, this is the norm now.
But at the same time, we have companies nowwho want to create their own AAA Games.
So they are no longer focused on the businessaspect, but they are now focused on the creative
aspect, they want to shine.
OF (25:35):
Simon, thank you so much for that.
SC (25:37):
Thank you very much.
OF (25:38):
You've taught me a lot.
I think sometimes you've been looking at melike “Oh my god, this guy does not know
anything.”
You are correct.
Well, let's move on to Part 2.
[Part 2]OF: Alright.
The 10 questions, Simon.
SC (25:55):
I am ready.
OF (25:56):
OK.
Question 1, which comes from Shanghai Daily,even though we are here in 成都 [Chéngdū]:
What is your favourite China-related fact?
SC (26:05):
I realised that many Chinese leaders, scientists, novelist, they studied in France.
OF (26:10):
Oh really?
SC (26:11):
Yes.
OF (26:12):
Like who?
SC (26:13):
邓小平 [Dèng Xiǎopíng] of course.
OF (26:15):
Right.
SC (26:16):
Very well known.
周恩来 [Zhōu Ēnlái].
OF (26:18):
周恩来 [Zhōu Ēnlái], oh right.
Even with those two examples, I’m alreadyimpressed.
And there's many more, I guess.
SC (26:23):
Yes.
OF (26:24):
Alright, I'll have to do my research.
Next question, which comes from Rosetta Stone: Do you have a favourite word or phrase in (26:26):
undefined
Chinese?
SC (26:31):
It's because now I have a kid, so it's actually a song for kids that I really love.
OF (26:36):
Nice.
SC (26:37):
I think it's from a cartoon originally.
It’s (26:39):
大头大头 [Dàtóu dàtóu]; 下雨不愁 [Xiàyǔ bùchóu]; 人家有伞 [Rénjiā
yǒu sǎn]; 我有大头 [Wǒ yǒu dàtóu]!
So it’s a cartoon, and in this cartoon thereis a kid with a big head, which is 大头
[dàtóu].
OF (26:52):
大头 [Dàtóu], ah.
SC (26:53):
And yeah, it’s saying that it's raining outside.
It's fine because the family has an umbrella.
But he has a big head.
I love it.
OF (27:01):
Your kid speaks French and Chinese?
SC (27:04):
Yes.
OF (27:05):
OK.
Next question, which comes from naked Retreats: What’s your favourite destination within (27:06):
undefined
China?
SC (27:12):
That's an easy one for me, it’s 大连 [Dàlián].
Because my wife is from 大连 [Dàlián].
OF (27:16):
Oh, man.
I actually was supposed to be in 大连 [Dàlián]this week, but I had to cancel my trip.
So I'm very jealous of you.
Tell me about 大连 [Dàlián].
SC (27:24):
It's a beautiful city next to the sea.
The sky is always blue.
There is the sun, it's hot in the summer.
It's cold and there is snow in the winter.
So you have everything in 大连 [Dàlián],it's just a beautiful city.
OF (27:38):
Yeah.
I've heard a lot of good things about 大连[Dàlián].
And it has an interesting history as well,right?
SC (27:42):
Yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And in 大连 [Dàlián] there are severalmuseums, so you can learn about the history
of the whole city.
The modern city of 大连 [Dàlián] was actuallybuilt by the Russians, then it was invaded
by the Japanese, and then it was taken backby the Chinese.
OF (27:56):
Right.
Fascinating stuff.
Wish me luck, I hope that I will see it thefirst time.
SC (28:01):
Yes.
OF (28:02):
Next question
miss the least?
SC (28:06):
What I will you miss the most is actually all the friends I made here, because I made
a lot of friends.
OF (28:12):
And the least?
SC (28:13):
Just renewing the work permit every year is a challenge.
OF (28:18):
Yes.
Visas.
SC (28:20):
Yes.
OF (28:22):
Next, is there anything that still surprises you about life in China?
SC (28:26):
How much everything relies on smartphones.
If you don't have a smartphone, I don't knowhow you can do anything here.
OF (28:33):
This is what keeps me up.
Because if I lost the phone, what the hellhappens?
I mean, I lose things, I'm an idiot.
Luckily, I've never lost the phone.
But what would happen if you do?
It must happen, right?
SC (28:44):
Yeah.
The first thing I do every time I leave myhome: “Do I have my phone?
It's raining outside, do I have my umbrella?
No, it doesn't matter.
Do I have my phone?
Do I have my phone?”
You cannot do anything without a phone.
OF (28:57):
I've been here for so long.
I don't quite remember how it was in Europebeforehand.
I'm sure people are also addicted to theirphones in France, no?
SC (29:05):
Yeah, but I think if you want to go to the grocery and you want to buy something,
I think in France we are still using the bankcard.
Paying with the phone, we might do it, butI'm not sure.
OF (29:17):
Yeah.
Next question, which comes from SmartShanghai.
It should be SmartChengdu, but… where isyour favourite place to go out, to eat or
drink or hang out?
SC (29:26):
Here in 成都 [Chéngdū] I would say Blue Frog.
OF (29:29):
Oh, that exists here?
SC (29:31):
Yes.
There are at least two Blue Frogs here in成都 [Chéngdū].
OF (29:34):
OK.
SC (29:35):
And if I want to eat a good burger and have a beer, usually it’s the best place
to go.
OF (29:41):
Nice.
So do you actually eat 四川 [Sìchuān]food?
SC (29:45):
Yes, it's very good.
OF (29:46):
Next question, what's the best or worst purchase you've made in China?
Apart from this object that I'm looking atright now, your console.
SC (29:54):
Yes, apart from the gamepad I would say books.
Lots of books.
I also bought some traditional Chinese comicbooks.
And you have the big picture, and like twoor three lines of text just below.
OF (30:04):
Nice.
And it's not too many words, when I see awhole bunch of words on a page it's very intimidating.
SC (30:10):
Yes.
OF (30:11):
But if it's just a few sentences, that’s…
SC (30:12):
Yeah.
And you have the context, and it's easierto understand.
OF (30:15):
Yeah.
OK, you’ve kind of inspired me with that.
Maybe I'm going to ask you for a few titles.
Next question, what's your favourite WeChatsticker?
SC (30:25):
Ah yeah, it's a series I think called Popo 猫 [māo].
So it's a big yellow cat…
OF (30:31):
Oh.
SC (30:32):
…With a smaller white cat.
OF (30:33):
Yes, I've seen these guys.
SC (30:35):
Yes.
And they’re like “Are you there?”
If I want to send a message to my wife, Ijust send her “Are you there?”
just with the cats.
I like the animation, I think it’s veryfunny.
OF (30:46):
Well as a game designer, I probably should in that case pay respect.
Because you know what you're talking about.
Next question, what is your go-to song tosing at KTV?
SC (30:58):
Maybe the only French song that you can find in China.
OF (31:02):
Oh wait, let me guess which one it is.
Is it 'Ça Plane Pour Moi’?
No.
SC (31:06):
No.
OF (31:07):
Is it 'La Vie En Rose?'
SC (31:08):
No.
OF (31:09):
Wait, what's a famous French song, what is it?
SC (31:10):
It’s a song - I don't even know why it's so popular here - it’s 'Hélène’.
OF (31:13):
‘Hélène’?
SC (31:14):
Yeah, so 'Hélène’ was the song for a French TV series.
The series wasn't very good.
But this song, you can find it in all KTVs.
OF (31:24):
Really?
SC (31:25):
Yes.
OF (31:26):
What kind of song is it?
SC (31:27):
Romantic.
She's saying “My name is Hélène.
And I'm just a girl like the others.”
Yeah.
Everyone knows this song.
Even younger generations here, they know thesong.
OF (31:40):
Really?
SC (31:41):
I don't know why.
OF (31:42):
OK.
SC (31:43):
And I'm sure nowadays in France, nobody remembers this.
OF (31:46):
OK, I'll look it up.
Thank you.
And finally, and this comes from JustPod,which is the studio that I use in Shanghai:
What or who is your biggest source of inspirationin China?
SC (31:58):
I follow on WeChat a publication called Sixth Tone.
OF (32:02):
Oh, yes.
SC (32:03):
I really like their articles.
Usually it's very in-depth, you can see thatthey do a very good job searching for information,
explaining everything in detail.
And they talk about all topics possible, itcan be about social issues, it can be about
science, it can be about so many differentthings.
And I like the way they make you think ina different way, or realise “OK, it's not
(32:25):
just A and B, maybe there is also C and D."OF: I agree, yeah.
It's quite rare to find writing about China,from a Chinese organisation, that is nuanced.
Yes, exactly.
OF (32:37):
And I think Sixth Tone do a really good job, so I agree.
And it's come up a lot in previous episodesas well.
So it's nice to have a chance to give a shout-outto Sixth Tone again.
SC (32:47):
Yes.
OF (32:48):
Simon, thank you so much.
SC (32:50):
Thank you very much.
OF (32:51):
It's also great to have a chance to see you in situ here in 成都 [Chéngdū].
SC (32:55):
Yes.
OF (32:56):
I hope I have another excuse to come here, especially to try out Blue Frog with you.
SC (33:00):
Yes.
OF (33:01):
The final question I would ask you is, out of everyone you know in China, who would
you recommend that I interview in the nextseason of Mosaic of China?
SC (33:10):
A lady called Adelle Neary, who is the Consul General from Australia in 成都 [Chéngdū],
she will have many stories to share.
OF (33:19):
Great, that’s perfect.
We had a diplomat in Season 01 and we haven'thad one since then, so I'm looking forward
to meeting Adelle next year.
And if you had one question that you wouldask Adele, what question would it be?
SC (33:34):
This is a good question.
OF (33:36):
I'm putting you on the spot here.
SC (33:38):
Are there any similarities between your hometown in Australia and 成都 [Chéngdū]?
OF (33:44):
Perfect.
Simon, thanks for your time.
SC (33:46):
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
[Outro]OF: Most video games out there have something
called DLC - downloadable content - whichgame designers create to offer users some
extra goodies.
And as regular listeners will know, Mosaicof China has it’s own DLC in the form of
the PREMIUM version of show, where there’s10-15 minutes of extra content per episode.
(34:11):
Head to the Mosaic of China website to followthe instructions on how to subscribe.
And while you’re doing that, here are clipsfrom today’s full-length conversation:
[Clip 1]SC: They try to hook you with mechanics that
force you to come back every day, to collectyour free reward.
[Clip 2]OF: Wait, so since you've been here, you've
never left China?
No.
OF (34:31):
Oh.
[Clip 3]SC: The rules are different, the art is different,
we have new music, to give to the player anew experience.
Right.
[Clip 4]OF: I will encourage them not to buy the power-ups.
SC (34:43):
Yes.
[Clip 5]SC: It's not just translation, it's really
localisation.
[Clip 6]SC: Oh, that feels good, that’s very fun.
I want to do it again, I want to move on tothe next level.
[Clip 7]SC: The publisher will make sure that there
is good marketing, to promote the game, andto make the game available.
[Clip 8]SC: Here there is a greater emphasis on monetisation.
OF (35:02):
That’s what it is.
SC (35:03):
Yes.
“Come here and spend money.”
[Clip 9]OF: So your hometown is Dijon?
Yes.
OF (35:08):
All I know is mustard.
SC (35:09):
Yeah.
[End of Audio Clips]
As always, there are images that accompanythe show on social media, so do a search for
mosaicofchina or oscology, and you’ll findthem there on most platforms, both in China
and worldwide.
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artworkby Denny Newell.
Like I said at the beginning of today’sshow, it has been great to include a game
(35:32):
designer in Mosaic of China, to sit alongsidethe previous episodes we’ve had with the
likes of fashion designers, architecturaldesigners, handicraft designers, and so on.
So it’s only fitting that today’s catch-upwith a previous guest of the show, is with
the car designer Ajay Jain from Season 02Episode 21.
Stick around for that after the music, andI’ll see you again next time.
(35:55):
[Catch-Up Interview]OF: Hello?
AJ (36:02):
Hi!
OF (36:05):
Ajay, let me first apologise because I don't quite know what I was thinking when
I recorded the intro and outro to your originalepisode.
Because I decided to pronounce your surnamein the most odd way.
And I don't know what kind of weird vomitcame out of my mouth.
(36:25):
Your name is Ajay Jain, I somehow said “AjayJayn” or I didn't know what came out!
AJ (36:31):
Inexcusable for somebody who claims to be a linguist.
OF (36:36):
Secondly of course, people will already have realised that we are catching up over
Zoom.
So where do I find you today?
And tell me the story of what happened betweenour original interview up till today.
AJ (36:48):
It's probably the longest 18 months of my life.
After speaking to you, I got a job to moveback to India, to Mumbai.
We arrived, I started work, we got the kidsto school, we got an apartment lease, our
container arrived, I moved my father to comeand move in with us, the internet was on,
(37:13):
paintings were hung on the walls, everythingwas working at home, and the country went
into lockdown.
It was really really lucky for us.
Then coming into a new job - in a new country,in a new environment - was quite a challenge.
OF (37:30):
Well let me interrupt you, because some people might not have heard your original
episode.
And for those who didn't, you are a mastercar designer.
You have spent how many years altogether doingcar design in China?
AJ (37:43):
Ten years in China, about 11 years in Europe.
OF (37:46):
Yeah.
AJ (37:47):
And never in India.
OF (37:49):
Exactly.
So what actually was the new job in India?
AJ (37:52):
I moved to India to work at a company called Mahindra & Mahindra to head up their
advanced design division.
Then, after nine months at Mahindra, I decided to change my job and move to another
Indian company called Tata Motors, which wasreally out of the blue.
(38:14):
So in the last 14 months, I have an overviewof not just one Indian company, but two Indian
companies.
Both are very much focused on the local Indianmarket, and they are Indian-run Indian-owned
Indian-managed companies.
My Indian experience is still quite fresh,but the fun challenge of being able to influence
the way things are done (38:36):
that, I found, was fairly similar to China.
So you do feel empowered, and have a levelof influence and making your mark and changing
the course and the direction of things.
However, the speed of things, nobody can competewith China.
The pace, the sheer ambition - the numberof projects, the number of things that you
(39:01):
do in a day - is just phenomenal in China.
And then you come to realise it when you stepout of that environment.
OF (39:10):
Well, it's been a whirlwind 18 months.
So the next obvious question would be, whatdoes the following 18 months look like?
AJ (39:18):
Well, interesting you say that.
We are in the middle of another move.
OF (39:23):
Oh.
AJ (39:24):
We’ve decided to move to a town called Pune where Tata Motors is based.
Another change, another bit of a transition,but I hope the next 18 months aren't going
to be as volatile as the previous 18 months.
OF (39:39):
Oh, very good.
Your family, they basically grew up in China,right?
I mean, it must be a foreign country really,for them to now live in India?
AJ (39:48):
Yes it is, it is.
My two daughters are born in Shanghai, theydefinitely seem to want to return to China
someday, if not for their education or work.
OF (39:58):
Yeah.
AJ (39:59):
So yeah, it's a whole new life and a whole new transition for us.
OF (40:03):
Well it was great to have you as part of this project.
I did not realise that it would be this swan-songof your ten years in China, so I'm really
glad that I could catch you before you endedup leaving.
And the person who you referred for next seasonunfortunately couldn't be part of the season.
But I did find a nice replacement, so I willbe adding this update chat at the end of that
(40:26):
episode.
And that’s it, you're stuck in the Mosaicforever.
I hope that this will be an excuse for usto keep in touch.
And good luck with your move to Pune.
AJ (40:34):
Thank you Oscar.
And it’s been great, this summary of mylife in China.
Big thanks to you, that I can share it withpeople.
I hope you will be visiting India, and theMosaic will grow out of India perhaps, and
becomes a cross continental phenomenon.
OF (40:51):
Oh my god.
I'm tired already, just thinking about it.
[Trailer]SC: When they play the game, they need to
know is it supposed to be like that, or isit a bug?
“No, no, this is a bug.”
“Oh.”
“Oh no, no.
Actually this is a feature.”
And sometimes a bug can become a feature.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina.
I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
(00:22):
Ever since Season 01 Episode 05, when JorgeLuzio said that there are 765 million active
gamers in China, I’ve been wanting to coverthis industry as part of the Mosaic of China.
But I needed to find somebody who was nottoo junior, not too senior; someone who has
been in China for a while, but has also workedin other countries; and someone who knows
(00:46):
the big corporate world, as well as the smallerindie world.
Well it took me until Season 03 Episode 11to find the right guy, and that’s Simon.
It’s like the Goldilocks of gaming.
Or since Simon is French, I should say “Boucled’or’.
On the topic of language, just a few notesfor non-native English speakers in this one:
(01:07):
’IP’ is ‘Intellectual Property’, ‘QA’is ‘Quality Assurance’, and ‘UI’ is
‘User Interface’.
Simon speaks amazing English, just one wordwhich is not very clear towards the end of
Part 1 is ‘hierarchy’.
Alright, enough of this lag.
Let’s boot up the episode before we allragequit.
(01:29):
[Part 1]OF: Simon, thank you very much for having
me.
SC (01:34):
Thank you.
Thank you for inviting me.
OF (01:36):
Your name, how do I pronounce it, ‘Simon Chapuis’?
SC (01:39):
Yeah, ‘Chapuis’.
OF (01:40):
‘Chapuis’.
‘Simon Chapuis’.
SC (01:42):
Yeah.
Makes sense.
OF (01:44):
And why don't you explain where we are right now.
SC (01:48):
We are in the city of 成都 [Chéngdū], in my wife’s office, the Chinese branch
of a French company importing wine from Bordeaux.
OF (01:58):
Right.
The reason I'm asking you that is becauseit actually explains the crazy situation that
we're in.
Things are always unpredictable when it comesto travel, when it comes to any kind of arrangement.
And that's certainly affected our situationhere today.
I've come from the other side of China tobe here.
We have cases here in 成都 [Chéngdū],I can't go to your home because your home
(02:22):
is near that area.
SC (02:23):
Yes.
OF (02:24):
You - because you're in that area - you can't come to my hotel.
SC (02:27):
Yeah.
OF (02:28):
So we have decided to meet in this office of your wife.
Offices usually have very harsh walls, whereechoes can be very difficult for recording.
But luckily, we're in this very untidy roomfull of wine bottles and boxes.
So I hope the sound will be OK.
SC (02:45):
Yes.
OF (02:47):
Maybe we'll hear traffic outside.
So you're going to hear some sounds of 成都[Chéngdū] in this recording.
SC (02:52):
Yeah, very authentic.
OF (02:53):
Very authentic.
With that in mind, let’s start.
So Simon, I'm going to ask you the questionthat I ask everyone first, which is: ‘What
object did you bring that in some way typifiesyour life here in China?’
SC (03:06):
It's a gamepad.
A video game controller.
I bought it in 成都 [Chéngdū] actually,I needed a gamepad because all of my gamepads
actually were in France, and I needed to playgames here.
So I bought it, and now it's been part ofmy life in 成都 [Chéngdū] since 2018.
OF (03:23):
Very good.
And it's a big hint about what we're goingto talk about.
SC (03:29):
Exactly.
OF (03:30):
Because you're not just a gaming enthusiast, are you?
SC (03:32):
No, it's also my job.
OF (03:34):
Right.
SC (03:35):
I’m a game designer, so I make games.
OF (03:37):
OK.
Well, let's put this console in the middleof the table.
Because actually, I do recognise it, it looksexactly like the Nintendo console.
And let me start with the most basic question,what is a game designer?
SC (03:51):
The game designer is the guy or the girl who defines the rules of the video game.
So how the character should move, jump, whatshould be the enemies and the different traps,
the kind of actions you can do to defeat theenemies, basically how you play the game.
OF (04:09):
Mmm.
And how does that process even start?
You have a blank sheet of paper and someonesays “Design a game”?
SC (04:16):
It could be like that, it depends on whether you work for publishers, or whether you're
an indie developer.
So the first idea - if you're working in abig company - it could come from the Game
Director, who would say “OK, there is abig trend in the market, we are looking for
this kind of game, could you make a pitch.”
Then it's up to the game designer to workon a pitch, to propose an idea for a specific
(04:41):
type of game.
Sometimes we start like that.
And sometimes a company can already have awell-known IP, and you're supposed to design
the next instalment of this IP.
So the basics are already here, it's up tothe game designer to find new features that
will make this game maybe better than theprevious one.
Or at least different enough, so it's notjust like a ‘1.5 version’ of the previous
(05:04):
game.
OF (05:05):
I see.
So your skills are what?
Are you someone who is skilled in computing?
Are you someone who is skilled in creatingworlds?
Are you skilled in art?
Like, what is your skillset?
SC (05:17):
A little bit of everything, but a game designer can come from different fields.
Some started as programmers, some of themstarted as artists, and some of them started
as something totally different.
It could be anything.
The common point is that we love to make games.
And we want to say something with our games.
(05:39):
Yeah, I studied art, I also studied programminga little bit.
But most of the time, I don't really needthese skills.
Mostly I use Word and Excel.
OF (05:49):
Word and Excel?
SC (05:50):
Yes.
OF (05:51):
Oh so actually, you're writing documentation.
SC (05:52):
A lot.
OF (05:53):
Oh.
Wow, OK.
SC (05:55):
And you need to think about every situation.
Sometimes it's hard to imagine that “OhOK, if you do this, and that, what will happen?”
“Oh, I don't know, I didn't think aboutit.
We need to try and see what will happen.”
OF (06:08):
Yes, of course.
SC (06:09):
Of course, it's not possible to design everything right from the start.
Because it's impossible to imagine everything.
So you need to test and iterate a lot.
In big companies, usually there are multiplegame designers.
So some of them are focused more on battlesystems, battle mechanics; some of them are
more focused on driving vehicles; some ofthem focused on the story.
(06:31):
You have lots of people working on specificaspects of the game.
And you have a Game Director or a Lead GameDesigner who is making sure that everything
makes sense and works together.
OF (06:42):
So what are you?
SC (06:43):
I'm currently a Senior Designer, so I can overlook everything on the project.
But of course, I didn't start like that.
When I started, I was working on level design.
Level design is another branch of game design.
Usually I'm mostly focused on game mechanics.
OF (07:00):
OK.
And you said before that it could be an indiecompany, it could be a big company.
So what is your situation now?
SC (07:08):
Now I'm working in a big big big company.
Yeah, one of the biggest video game companiesin the world actually, Ubisoft.
OF (07:15):
Ubisoft.
SC (07:16):
They have an office here in 成都 [Chéngdū].
OF (07:19):
Yeah.
I know Ubisoft, yeah, it’s a French company,correct?
SC (07:22):
Yes.
OF (07:23):
There you go.
Well, now it’s starting to make sense, whya French guy is here in 成都 [Chéngdū].
OK, so in a company like Ubisoft, you're somebodywho is writing the documentation.
Who are you writing it for?
SC (07:35):
Yes.
So, multiple people.
Programmers.
So they need to understand how the game works,and the game logic, and everything.
OF (07:42):
So what is a programmer?
SC (07:43):
The programmer is the guy who is doing all the code.
Typing a lot of lines of text that I don'treally understand.
OF (07:50):
Right.
So translating what you're writing in thedocument into what actually happens on the
computer screen.
SC (07:55):
Yes.
OF (07:56):
OK.
You don't necessarily specify exactly howit looks?
They have some kind of freedom to interpretyour words?
SC (08:02):
Yeah, Yeah.
This is true, yes.
OF (08:04):
OK.
SC (08:05):
So I give the intention
And then it's up to the programmer to be creativeand find the right way to create what I would
like to have in the game.
OF (08:17):
I see.
So if you're writing a document for a programmer,what kind of details do you include?
SC (08:22):
Usually we have flowcharts.
You have one action, and you have a line linkingthe first action to the second action, and
everything.
And a lot of bullet points, to be clear andconcise.
OF (08:33):
Yes.
Which I guess is even more important whenyou're working in an international environment,
where people are speaking different languages.
SC (08:40):
Yeah, exactly.
OF (08:41):
Just make it clear.
But even if you are making it clear, I'm stillguessing there is a lot of back-and-forth,
back-and-forth.
SC (08:48):
Always, always.
We need to always work together.
It's not like “Oh I wrote my documentation,take it and do your stuff.
And when you're done, send it to me, and we'llsee if that works.”
No, there is always communication, and weneed to ensure that everything is clear for
everyone, so that we are following the samepath.
Because making a video game is expensive,it takes time, deadlines are always very short.
(09:14):
So we cannot afford to waste time.
And we have to be clear right from the start,and communicate a lot.
Yes.
OF (09:21):
Got it.
SC (09:22):
It’s very important.
OF (09:23):
That was for the programmers, what other teams do you collaborate with?
SC (09:25):
The artists, of course.
Artists are very important, because the artwould be the first thing that players will
see.
If they like the art, they might be interestedin the game, more than anything else.
Again, they have a lot of freedom to expressthe design through their art, I would say
the challenge for artists in the video gameindustry is not only to make something beautiful,
(09:48):
it's also about making games that can be easilyunderstood by the players.
So everything on the screen should convey,very clearly, its function.
And this is always a challenge.
Because sometimes you want to make somethingvery very beautiful - like beautiful animation,
it's very smooth - but when you play withthe gamepad, and you try to move forward for
instance, the animation is so smooth thatyou feel like the character is not moving
(10:12):
fast enough.
It's not responsive, it doesn't work as itshould.
That's when you have to accept that “Oh,the animation has too many frames.”
OF (10:20):
Oh.
SC (10:21):
So we need to cut some frames to make it more responsive.
OF (10:25):
Like, it's a balance between looking good, and then the practicality of playing the games.
SC (10:29):
Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
OF (10:31):
Interesting.
OK, so we have the programmers, we have theartists…
SC (10:33):
Yes.
OF (10:34):
Who else?
SC (10:35):
The ‘QA’, so the Quality Assurance: the guys who are testing the game a lot, to
find all the bugs.
OF (10:40):
Ah.
SC (10:41):
When they play the game, they need to know “Oh is it a bug, or is it a feature?
Is it supposed to be like that?”
Because sometimes you could wonder “Oh,it looks like a bug but I'm not sure.
Maybe that's what the designer wanted to do.”
No no, this is a bug.”
“Oh.”
“Oh no, no.
Actually this is a feature.”
And sometimes a bug can become a feature.
OF (10:57):
Ah right.
One of those happy accidents.
SC (11:00):
Yes.
But yeah, we work really very closely withthe QA.
Because although the designers must test thegame a lot, they don't always have the time
to track the bugs.
It's not our job.
OF (11:11):
Interesting.
But it sounds like your job, it kind of coversall of those things to some extent.
There's a little overlap with all of thesedifferent teams.
SC (11:19):
Yes.
Yeah.
And that's why - although I'm not a good artist,and I'm not a programmer at all - at least
because I studied that, I'm aware of the difficultiesand the problems in these fields.
So I can also anticipate some issues and Ican understand the rest of the team more clearly.
OF (11:37):
Right.
OK, why don't we use this as a chance to actuallytalk about your background?
How long have you been a game designer for?
SC (11:44):
I started 2007.
OF (11:46):
So what's that now?
It's about 15 years.
SC (11:49):
Yeah, 15 years.
I started in France in a small company inStrasbourg.
At the time, we were making games for theold-school mobile phones, with the keyboard
and everything.
OF (12:00):
Right, like the Snake game on the Nokia.
SC (12:02):
It was a little bit more advanced than that.
But that's the same idea, yes.
OF (12:06):
I'm ageing myself right there.
SC (12:08):
And that was very very interesting, because you have to make games for a device that is
not meant to be for video games.
OF (12:15):
For a creative person, that would be very interesting, yeah.
SC (12:19):
Yeah.
And after that, the time there was the NintendoDS and the Nintendo Wii.
We made some casual games on these consoles.
Then I moved to Germany.
Although I was working in Germany, I was livingin Strasbourg, so I was just crossing the
border every day.
It was an international company with peoplefrom all around the world.
Here we made games for console and PC.
(12:41):
Then I moved to Barcelona.
OF (12:42):
Oh right.
SC (12:43):
Yes, actually I worked at King, so the company behind Candy Crush.
Although in Barcelona we were developing othergames.
What we call ‘Match Three’ games, youmatch candies or dice…
OF (12:52):
Yes.
SC (12:53):
…Together to eliminate them.
OF (12:55):
There are so many versions of that, right?
SC (12:58):
Exactly.
And that was a very good experience, workingwith people from all around the world.
I think I became addicted to that, I loveworking with people from different countries,
different cultures.
And when I had the opportunity to move toChina, it's something I wanted a long long
time ago.
OF (13:14):
Ah.
Because some people, they end up in China.
Other people, they try to engineer their lifeto China.
SC (13:19):
Yes.
OF (13:20):
So you really wanted to be here.
SC (13:22):
Exactly, yes.
OF (13:23):
Why was that?
SC (13:24):
I have to admit that I'm in love with 王菲 [Wáng Fēi], this famous pop singer.
I really love her music.
OF (13:31):
Does your wife know about this?
SC (13:34):
Yeah.
And I was very much in love with the Chineseculture.
So I really wanted to come here.
And finally I'm here.
OF (13:42):
You applied for a job?
Or someone came to you?
SC (13:45):
I was very lucky because a colleague of mine used to work in a Chinese company.
And he told me "Oh, there is this companyI know, I work for them.
Maybe I could give you their contact.”
That's how I managed to get hired by the company,and I came here to 成都 [Chéngdū].
OF (14:03):
Right.
You're making it sound like it's a globalmarketplace for people like you.
Is that true?
SC (14:08):
Yeah, well I think it's something that I realised quite early in my career.
Because the industry is very tough.
You need to be open for travelling a lot.
OF (14:18):
Really?
SC (14:19):
Yes.
Because there are companies all around theworld, competition is fierce, and you need
to be open to relocate.
OF (14:27):
Well you say it's tough, so what do you mean?
Why is it so tough?
SC (14:31):
It's very hard to make games.
Lots of new people joining, they’re livetheir dream, and they are super happy.
But because it's so tough, people get burntout and they have to leave the industry.
Because it's really hard.
So maybe after two years, they will say “Ilove making, but I’m done with the industry.”
And that's how it is.
OF (14:51):
So I guess someone with 15 years experience is actually quite rare.
SC (14:55):
Yes, exactly, yeah.
Because we very often have very short deadlines.
And you need to test the game a lot.
And sometimes you get some feedback from theplayers that they didn't understand the game.
So we need to rework the whole feature.
So yeah, it’s very hard.
OF (15:12):
Yeah.
I'm guessing that a lot of it comes down tothis ‘X Factor’, right?
Because how do you know what is a good game?
Can you articulate what makes a good game?
SC (15:22):
Magic, maybe.
It's very hard.
Sometimes you think you're making a good game.
But when you have the final product, actuallyit's not that fun.
OF (15:32):
At which point in the process do you find that out?
Like, only at the end?
SC (15:36):
If it's a big project, at the very end.
Because a big project is made up of differentparts, and you need to wait for all these
parts to be together, to have an idea of whetherthe game works or not.
On a smaller project much earlier, becausethe scope is much smaller.
OF (15:53):
So I'm guessing these big projects, they're the ones that have extra budget, it’s important,
it’s in the spotlight.
And yet these are the ones that can go wrongthe most.
SC (16:01):
Yes.
Yeah yeah that’s true.
In video game history, they have several storiesabout big games - what we call ‘AAA Games’
- that failed.
Because although the budget was big and thedeadline was OK, the game wasn't interesting.
OF (16:17):
Yeah it's, I'm guessing, what keeps you interested in doing it for all these years.
Because you've been doing it for 15 years,and even you don't have the answer, right?
SC (16:25):
Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
I really don't know.
A game can hook you - for several years, maybesometimes - and you don't really know why.
You just enjoy the game.
OF (16:35):
I mean, do you still enjoy playing games?
Or are you, at this point, just sick of it?
SC (16:40):
No, I still love playing games.
But now I have some kind of curse.
Although I try to step back when I play gamesfor my own entertainment, the game designer
is always here.
OF (16:53):
Yes.
SC (16:54):
Telling me “They designed this like this.
And this like that.
What do you think about this?
Maybe they should have done it like this,or like that?”
OF (17:00):
Yes.
SC (17:01):
So it's really hard to forget my job now.
But I still enjoy video games, yes.
OF (17:05):
OK.
I mean, I guess for you, ‘making the game’is the game.
SC (17:09):
Yeah, actually, this is true.
You have to make choices, and a choice maybe rewarded.
Sometimes you make the wrong choice, and it'slike you're losing a life in a game.
So yeah.
And if you want to be a game designer, youneed to love making games.
It's very very important.
Because you're not just making games for yourself,you’re making games for everyone.
(17:31):
And because you love making games, you wantto share your game with everyone, so everyone
can enjoy it.
OF (17:36):
Well you're talking about everyone, so who are these people, the gamers?
Like basically, they’re your customers,your consumers.
What are they like?
Because in my mind, I think gamers can bevery passionate.
I would say they can go over the top whenthey're happy, and they can go over the top
when they're angry.
Is that your experience about your interfacewith your customers?
SC (17:56):
Well I was lucky enough, I think, to have players and gamers…
They love the games, and they love talkingabout games - and sharing their opinions and
thoughts about the game - but in a very open-mindedway.
So it's always about exchanging ideas andtrying to think of how we could improve games,
(18:17):
or imagine new ways to make games, and enjoygames.
So that's something I like a lot, to talkabout games.
OF (18:24):
Are they easy to please, or are they quite hard to please?
Because I'm guessing they're quite savvy,you know, they can tell a good game from a
bad game pretty easily.
SC (18:32):
Yes.
But what's super super fun, actually, whenyou make games is that players don't really
know what they want.
OF (18:39):
Oh right.
SC (18:40):
For instance, you have a game that is successful
And you want to make a number two (18:43):
OK.
So what should we do for the next episode?
So players will say “Oh, it has to be brandnew, because I don't want to buy the same
game every year.”
But at the same time, when you look at serieslike Call of Duty, it's kind of the same every
year.
So they like to have the same thing becausethey enjoy it; they want something new; but
(19:05):
if you propose something that is really reallynew and different they will say “Oh no,
it's not…
I prefer the old one, it was better.”
OF (19:12):
Yeah.
SC (19:13):
They never really know what they want.
OF (19:15):
Yeah.
That's interesting.
That must be frustrating for you as the designer.
Because if it is the fact that they want somethingwhich is similar, but just with a little tweak,
then it's not so much fun for you, right?
You're just doing little changes here andthere.
SC (19:28):
Yeah, when you are on the creative side, sometimes you would love to go wild and be
super creative.
The thing is, we work in an industry.
You cannot do just whatever you want, youcannot go wild.
You have to be realistic.
That's how it works.
And you need to get your salary every month,to pay your rent, to buy your food.
Making money shouldn't be a taboo, it's business,it's part of the industry.
(19:52):
But it's true that from a creative standpoint,we would like to have all of these crazy ideas.
“Oh it would be great to do this, and that.
Oh I would love to do this.”
But maybe it's not what the player wants.
OF (20:01):
Yeah.
SC (20:02):
So you have to find the right balance between what you think is innovative and creative
enough - and will bring some value to thegame - and what the market actually wants.
OF (20:11):
Yes, and I can imagine you as a designer, you can sometimes get very very focused.
To the extent that you kind of forget aboutthe customer.
And you need people around you to keep pushingyou in the right direction sometimes.
SC (20:23):
Yeah.
You don't realise that you're going too far.
Maybe here it's too complex.
It’s very important to always work in ateam, and to get as much feedback as possible.
OF (20:31):
Do game companies specialise in particular games?
And if so, what is Ubisoft famous for?
SC (20:37):
Yeah, so Ubisoft is very famous for ‘open-world’ games.
So there is Assassin's Creed, there is WatchDogs, there is Far Cry.
OF (20:45):
So these are all big budget games?
SC (20:47):
Yes.
Yeah yeah, big big budget.
They publish a lot of other games, casualgames like Monopoly, UNO.
OF (20:53):
Got it.
So what are you working on right now?
SC (20:56):
I’m currently working on UNO actually.
OF (20:57):
Oh, UNO.
SC (20:58):
Yeah.
OF (20:59):
I wonder if people in China know that game.
SC (21:01):
I think UNO is not that popular in China.
OF (21:04):
Right.
SC (21:05):
Although you can find games that look like UNO.
OF (21:07):
Oh I see.
SC (21:08):
But they are not UNO.
UNO is very very popular in the U.S.OF: Yeah.
So…
I mean, I know this game.
I used to play UNO when I was a child.
This is a simple game, right?
It's a very simple game, yes.
OF (21:20):
So as a designer, what can you do with this simple game?
This is actually quite a challenge, right?
SC (21:25):
Exactly, that’s always the biggest challenge for me.
Because people play this game for its simplicity.
UNO relies a lot on randomness.
So I want to bring more depth and more controlto the player, so they can build strategies
and just make the game a little bit more interesting.
And it's very hard because the moment youstart adding complexity to the game, then
(21:46):
you have to be careful, because maybe it'sno longer UNO.
OF (21:49):
Yes.
SC (21:50):
Maybe it's a different game.
OF (21:51):
Yeah.
SC (21:52):
We need to make a game that is still UNO, but at the same time we want to bring new
stuff.
OF (21:56):
And you mentioned that it's not well-known in China, so why are you doing UNO in China?
SC (22:00):
That’s a good question.
OF (22:02):
Because this is a game that's global.
Or maybe your key market will be the U.S.for example.
SC (22:07):
Yeah.
OF (22:08):
And yet here we are in 成都 [Chéngdū], making it.
SC (22:09):
Well that's the beautiful thing about video games, you can make a game for a market
in a totally different country.
OF (22:15):
Yeah.
SC (22:16):
Yeah, it’s very international.
OF (22:17):
So do you know why your company is here in 成都 [Chéngdū] of all places, and not
elsewhere in China?
SC (22:24):
They have an office in Shanghai.
I think they opened the office in 成都 [Chéngdū]14 years ago, something like that.
My guess would be that, in 成都 [Chéngdū]there are other video game companies here.
I guess they have a pool of designers, artists,programmers, people who have experience in
video games.
OF (22:43):
Right.
Yes, because you first came to 成都 [Chéngdū]with a Chinese company.
SC (22:47):
Yes, exactly.
OF (22:48):
Maybe that's a good question to ask you, then.
If you think about the differences, what wasyour experience like with the Chinese gaming
company?
SC (22:55):
The main difference, I would say, is the hierarchy was very important.
There is the boss, and then you have managers,then you have different layers of employees.
So it's very much like a pyramidal type ofhierarchy.
Whereas at Ubisoft, I think it's much moreflat.
The way you work with people, the way youcommunicate with people, is very different.
I cannot say one is better than the other.
(23:16):
I can say positive things in both, and negativethings in both.
When it's flat, it's easier to communicateand to convey the information to everyone.
When it's pyramidal, you have a strong directionto the company, and we stick to that.
It doesn't mean that other companies don'thave a strong vision, but the way you work
is just different.
OF (23:36):
Yeah.
I guess it means that there's not pushingideas back and forward.
SC (23:40):
Yeah.
OF (23:41):
So it’s more efficient in some way.
SC (23:42):
Yes.
OF (23:43):
Is there one game in your career that you're most proud of?
SC (23:48):
It's the game I worked on when I was in Germany.
It's a game that is called ‘Giana Sisters: Twisted Dreams’. (23:52):
undefined
So the first Giana Sisters was made for theCommodore 64.
OF (23:59):
Oh yes.
SC (24:00):
So this old computer.
OF (24:01):
Yes.
SC (24:02):
So we made a new episode in the series.
We managed to create something quite original.
And there was an issue is deadline and budget,so we had to do a Kickstarter.
So Kickstarter is this website where peoplecan give money to companies or indie developers,
to help them to fund their projects.
So it can be video games, music, comic books.
When you do a Kickstarter, you make a promiseto the player.
(24:25):
You tell them “OK, we need this amount ofmoney.
We want to release the game on this date.”
And people trust you.
OF (24:31):
And they're part of the project themselves from day one, right?
SC (24:34):
Yes, yes.
So you want to make a good game.
And you also want to keep your promise.
And I'm proud of this game, because we madea good game, it got good reviews, we released
it on time, we released it within the budget.
It's not perfect, but people still enjoyedit.
And they enjoyed it so much that this eventin the U.S. called Games Done Quick - you
(24:57):
have players who play the games as fast aspossible - I was very happy to see one day
that Giana Sisters was actually part of thisevent.
OF (25:05):
Oh.
SC (25:06):
Someone took the time to practice the game, to beat it as fast as possible.
And I was like “Yeah!
That's cool.
That's my game.”
OF (25:12):
Nice.
SC (25:13):
Yeah.
OF (25:14):
Let's finish this part of the conversation by talking about China.
What is the future going to be here in China?
SC (25:18):
We will see more and more free-to-play games, this is the norm now.
But at the same time, we have companies nowwho want to create their own AAA Games.
So they are no longer focused on the businessaspect, but they are now focused on the creative
aspect, they want to shine.
OF (25:35):
Simon, thank you so much for that.
SC (25:37):
Thank you very much.
OF (25:38):
You've taught me a lot.
I think sometimes you've been looking at melike “Oh my god, this guy does not know
anything.”
You are correct.
Well, let's move on to Part 2.
[Part 2]OF: Alright.
The 10 questions, Simon.
SC (25:55):
I am ready.
OF (25:56):
OK.
Question 1, which comes from Shanghai Daily,even though we are here in 成都 [Chéngdū]:
What is your favourite China-related fact?
SC (26:05):
I realised that many Chinese leaders, scientists, novelist, they studied in France.
OF (26:10):
Oh really?
SC (26:11):
Yes.
OF (26:12):
Like who?
SC (26:13):
邓小平 [Dèng Xiǎopíng] of course.
OF (26:15):
Right.
SC (26:16):
Very well known.
周恩来 [Zhōu Ēnlái].
OF (26:18):
周恩来 [Zhōu Ēnlái], oh right.
Even with those two examples, I’m alreadyimpressed.
And there's many more, I guess.
SC (26:23):
Yes.
OF (26:24):
Alright, I'll have to do my research.
Next question, which comes from Rosetta Stone: Do you have a favourite word or phrase in (26:26):
undefined
Chinese?
SC (26:31):
It's because now I have a kid, so it's actually a song for kids that I really love.
OF (26:36):
Nice.
SC (26:37):
I think it's from a cartoon originally.
It’s (26:39):
大头大头 [Dàtóu dàtóu]; 下雨不愁 [Xiàyǔ bùchóu]; 人家有伞 [Rénjiā
yǒu sǎn]; 我有大头 [Wǒ yǒu dàtóu]!
So it’s a cartoon, and in this cartoon thereis a kid with a big head, which is 大头
[dàtóu].
OF (26:52):
大头 [Dàtóu], ah.
SC (26:53):
And yeah, it’s saying that it's raining outside.
It's fine because the family has an umbrella.
But he has a big head.
I love it.
OF (27:01):
Your kid speaks French and Chinese?
SC (27:04):
Yes.
OF (27:05):
OK.
Next question, which comes from naked Retreats: What’s your favourite destination within (27:06):
undefined
China?
SC (27:12):
That's an easy one for me, it’s 大连 [Dàlián].
Because my wife is from 大连 [Dàlián].
OF (27:16):
Oh, man.
I actually was supposed to be in 大连 [Dàlián]this week, but I had to cancel my trip.
So I'm very jealous of you.
Tell me about 大连 [Dàlián].
SC (27:24):
It's a beautiful city next to the sea.
The sky is always blue.
There is the sun, it's hot in the summer.
It's cold and there is snow in the winter.
So you have everything in 大连 [Dàlián],it's just a beautiful city.
OF (27:38):
Yeah.
I've heard a lot of good things about 大连[Dàlián].
And it has an interesting history as well,right?
SC (27:42):
Yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And in 大连 [Dàlián] there are severalmuseums, so you can learn about the history
of the whole city.
The modern city of 大连 [Dàlián] was actuallybuilt by the Russians, then it was invaded
by the Japanese, and then it was taken backby the Chinese.
OF (27:56):
Right.
Fascinating stuff.
Wish me luck, I hope that I will see it thefirst time.
SC (28:01):
Yes.
OF (28:02):
Next question
miss the least?
SC (28:06):
What I will you miss the most is actually all the friends I made here, because I made
a lot of friends.
OF (28:12):
And the least?
SC (28:13):
Just renewing the work permit every year is a challenge.
OF (28:18):
Yes.
Visas.
SC (28:20):
Yes.
OF (28:22):
Next, is there anything that still surprises you about life in China?
SC (28:26):
How much everything relies on smartphones.
If you don't have a smartphone, I don't knowhow you can do anything here.
OF (28:33):
This is what keeps me up.
Because if I lost the phone, what the hellhappens?
I mean, I lose things, I'm an idiot.
Luckily, I've never lost the phone.
But what would happen if you do?
It must happen, right?
SC (28:44):
Yeah.
The first thing I do every time I leave myhome: “Do I have my phone?
It's raining outside, do I have my umbrella?
No, it doesn't matter.
Do I have my phone?
Do I have my phone?”
You cannot do anything without a phone.
OF (28:57):
I've been here for so long.
I don't quite remember how it was in Europebeforehand.
I'm sure people are also addicted to theirphones in France, no?
SC (29:05):
Yeah, but I think if you want to go to the grocery and you want to buy something,
I think in France we are still using the bankcard.
Paying with the phone, we might do it, butI'm not sure.
OF (29:17):
Yeah.
Next question, which comes from SmartShanghai.
It should be SmartChengdu, but… where isyour favourite place to go out, to eat or
drink or hang out?
SC (29:26):
Here in 成都 [Chéngdū] I would say Blue Frog.
OF (29:29):
Oh, that exists here?
SC (29:31):
Yes.
There are at least two Blue Frogs here in成都 [Chéngdū].
OF (29:34):
OK.
SC (29:35):
And if I want to eat a good burger and have a beer, usually it’s the best place
to go.
OF (29:41):
Nice.
So do you actually eat 四川 [Sìchuān]food?
SC (29:45):
Yes, it's very good.
OF (29:46):
Next question, what's the best or worst purchase you've made in China?
Apart from this object that I'm looking atright now, your console.
SC (29:54):
Yes, apart from the gamepad I would say books.
Lots of books.
I also bought some traditional Chinese comicbooks.
And you have the big picture, and like twoor three lines of text just below.
OF (30:04):
Nice.
And it's not too many words, when I see awhole bunch of words on a page it's very intimidating.
SC (30:10):
Yes.
OF (30:11):
But if it's just a few sentences, that’s…
SC (30:12):
Yeah.
And you have the context, and it's easierto understand.
OF (30:15):
Yeah.
OK, you’ve kind of inspired me with that.
Maybe I'm going to ask you for a few titles.
Next question, what's your favourite WeChatsticker?
SC (30:25):
Ah yeah, it's a series I think called Popo 猫 [māo].
So it's a big yellow cat…
OF (30:31):
Oh.
SC (30:32):
…With a smaller white cat.
OF (30:33):
Yes, I've seen these guys.
SC (30:35):
Yes.
And they’re like “Are you there?”
If I want to send a message to my wife, Ijust send her “Are you there?”
just with the cats.
I like the animation, I think it’s veryfunny.
OF (30:46):
Well as a game designer, I probably should in that case pay respect.
Because you know what you're talking about.
Next question, what is your go-to song tosing at KTV?
SC (30:58):
Maybe the only French song that you can find in China.
OF (31:02):
Oh wait, let me guess which one it is.
Is it 'Ça Plane Pour Moi’?
No.
SC (31:06):
No.
OF (31:07):
Is it 'La Vie En Rose?'
SC (31:08):
No.
OF (31:09):
Wait, what's a famous French song, what is it?
SC (31:10):
It’s a song - I don't even know why it's so popular here - it’s 'Hélène’.
OF (31:13):
‘Hélène’?
SC (31:14):
Yeah, so 'Hélène’ was the song for a French TV series.
The series wasn't very good.
But this song, you can find it in all KTVs.
OF (31:24):
Really?
SC (31:25):
Yes.
OF (31:26):
What kind of song is it?
SC (31:27):
Romantic.
She's saying “My name is Hélène.
And I'm just a girl like the others.”
Yeah.
Everyone knows this song.
Even younger generations here, they know thesong.
OF (31:40):
Really?
SC (31:41):
I don't know why.
OF (31:42):
OK.
SC (31:43):
And I'm sure nowadays in France, nobody remembers this.
OF (31:46):
OK, I'll look it up.
Thank you.
And finally, and this comes from JustPod,which is the studio that I use in Shanghai:
What or who is your biggest source of inspirationin China?
SC (31:58):
I follow on WeChat a publication called Sixth Tone.
OF (32:02):
Oh, yes.
SC (32:03):
I really like their articles.
Usually it's very in-depth, you can see thatthey do a very good job searching for information,
explaining everything in detail.
And they talk about all topics possible, itcan be about social issues, it can be about
science, it can be about so many differentthings.
And I like the way they make you think ina different way, or realise “OK, it's not
(32:25):
just A and B, maybe there is also C and D."OF: I agree, yeah.
It's quite rare to find writing about China,from a Chinese organisation, that is nuanced.
Yes, exactly.
OF (32:37):
And I think Sixth Tone do a really good job, so I agree.
And it's come up a lot in previous episodesas well.
So it's nice to have a chance to give a shout-outto Sixth Tone again.
SC (32:47):
Yes.
OF (32:48):
Simon, thank you so much.
SC (32:50):
Thank you very much.
OF (32:51):
It's also great to have a chance to see you in situ here in 成都 [Chéngdū].
SC (32:55):
Yes.
OF (32:56):
I hope I have another excuse to come here, especially to try out Blue Frog with you.
SC (33:00):
Yes.
OF (33:01):
The final question I would ask you is, out of everyone you know in China, who would
you recommend that I interview in the nextseason of Mosaic of China?
SC (33:10):
A lady called Adelle Neary, who is the Consul General from Australia in 成都 [Chéngdū],
she will have many stories to share.
OF (33:19):
Great, that’s perfect.
We had a diplomat in Season 01 and we haven'thad one since then, so I'm looking forward
to meeting Adelle next year.
And if you had one question that you wouldask Adele, what question would it be?
SC (33:34):
This is a good question.
OF (33:36):
I'm putting you on the spot here.
SC (33:38):
Are there any similarities between your hometown in Australia and 成都 [Chéngdū]?
OF (33:44):
Perfect.
Simon, thanks for your time.
SC (33:46):
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
[Outro]OF: Most video games out there have something
called DLC - downloadable content - whichgame designers create to offer users some
extra goodies.
And as regular listeners will know, Mosaicof China has it’s own DLC in the form of
the PREMIUM version of show, where there’s10-15 minutes of extra content per episode.
(34:11):
Head to the Mosaic of China website to followthe instructions on how to subscribe.
And while you’re doing that, here are clipsfrom today’s full-length conversation:
[Clip 1]SC: They try to hook you with mechanics that
force you to come back every day, to collectyour free reward.
[Clip 2]OF: Wait, so since you've been here, you've
never left China?
No.
OF (34:31):
Oh.
[Clip 3]SC: The rules are different, the art is different,
we have new music, to give to the player anew experience.
Right.
[Clip 4]OF: I will encourage them not to buy the power-ups.
SC (34:43):
Yes.
[Clip 5]SC: It's not just translation, it's really
localisation.
[Clip 6]SC: Oh, that feels good, that’s very fun.
I want to do it again, I want to move on tothe next level.
[Clip 7]SC: The publisher will make sure that there
is good marketing, to promote the game, andto make the game available.
[Clip 8]SC: Here there is a greater emphasis on monetisation.
OF (35:02):
That’s what it is.
SC (35:03):
Yes.
“Come here and spend money.”
[Clip 9]OF: So your hometown is Dijon?
Yes.
OF (35:08):
All I know is mustard.
SC (35:09):
Yeah.
[End of Audio Clips]
As always, there are images that accompanythe show on social media, so do a search for
mosaicofchina or oscology, and you’ll findthem there on most platforms, both in China
and worldwide.
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artworkby Denny Newell.
Like I said at the beginning of today’sshow, it has been great to include a game
(35:32):
designer in Mosaic of China, to sit alongsidethe previous episodes we’ve had with the
likes of fashion designers, architecturaldesigners, handicraft designers, and so on.
So it’s only fitting that today’s catch-upwith a previous guest of the show, is with
the car designer Ajay Jain from Season 02Episode 21.
Stick around for that after the music, andI’ll see you again next time.
(35:55):
[Catch-Up Interview]OF: Hello?
AJ (36:02):
Hi!
OF (36:05):
Ajay, let me first apologise because I don't quite know what I was thinking when
I recorded the intro and outro to your originalepisode.
Because I decided to pronounce your surnamein the most odd way.
And I don't know what kind of weird vomitcame out of my mouth.
(36:25):
Your name is Ajay Jain, I somehow said “AjayJayn” or I didn't know what came out!
AJ (36:31):
Inexcusable for somebody who claims to be a linguist.
OF (36:36):
Secondly of course, people will already have realised that we are catching up over
Zoom.
So where do I find you today?
And tell me the story of what happened betweenour original interview up till today.
AJ (36:48):
It's probably the longest 18 months of my life.
After speaking to you, I got a job to moveback to India, to Mumbai.
We arrived, I started work, we got the kidsto school, we got an apartment lease, our
container arrived, I moved my father to comeand move in with us, the internet was on,
(37:13):
paintings were hung on the walls, everythingwas working at home, and the country went
into lockdown.
It was really really lucky for us.
Then coming into a new job - in a new country,in a new environment - was quite a challenge.
OF (37:30):
Well let me interrupt you, because some people might not have heard your original
episode.
And for those who didn't, you are a mastercar designer.
You have spent how many years altogether doingcar design in China?
AJ (37:43):
Ten years in China, about 11 years in Europe.
OF (37:46):
Yeah.
AJ (37:47):
And never in India.
OF (37:49):
Exactly.
So what actually was the new job in India?
AJ (37:52):
I moved to India to work at a company called Mahindra & Mahindra to head up their
advanced design division.
Then, after nine months at Mahindra, I decided to change my job and move to another
Indian company called Tata Motors, which wasreally out of the blue.
(38:14):
So in the last 14 months, I have an overviewof not just one Indian company, but two Indian
companies.
Both are very much focused on the local Indianmarket, and they are Indian-run Indian-owned
Indian-managed companies.
My Indian experience is still quite fresh,but the fun challenge of being able to influence
the way things are done (38:36):
that, I found, was fairly similar to China.
So you do feel empowered, and have a levelof influence and making your mark and changing
the course and the direction of things.
However, the speed of things, nobody can competewith China.
The pace, the sheer ambition - the numberof projects, the number of things that you
(39:01):
do in a day - is just phenomenal in China.
And then you come to realise it when you stepout of that environment.
OF (39:10):
Well, it's been a whirlwind 18 months.
So the next obvious question would be, whatdoes the following 18 months look like?
AJ (39:18):
Well, interesting you say that.
We are in the middle of another move.
OF (39:23):
Oh.
AJ (39:24):
We’ve decided to move to a town called Pune where Tata Motors is based.
Another change, another bit of a transition,but I hope the next 18 months aren't going
to be as volatile as the previous 18 months.
OF (39:39):
Oh, very good.
Your family, they basically grew up in China,right?
I mean, it must be a foreign country really,for them to now live in India?
AJ (39:48):
Yes it is, it is.
My two daughters are born in Shanghai, theydefinitely seem to want to return to China
someday, if not for their education or work.
OF (39:58):
Yeah.
AJ (39:59):
So yeah, it's a whole new life and a whole new transition for us.
OF (40:03):
Well it was great to have you as part of this project.
I did not realise that it would be this swan-songof your ten years in China, so I'm really
glad that I could catch you before you endedup leaving.
And the person who you referred for next seasonunfortunately couldn't be part of the season.
But I did find a nice replacement, so I willbe adding this update chat at the end of that
(40:26):
episode.
And that’s it, you're stuck in the Mosaicforever.
I hope that this will be an excuse for usto keep in touch.
And good luck with your move to Pune.
AJ (40:34):
Thank you Oscar.
And it’s been great, this summary of mylife in China.
Big thanks to you, that I can share it withpeople.
I hope you will be visiting India, and theMosaic will grow out of India perhaps, and
becomes a cross continental phenomenon.
OF (40:51):
Oh my god.
I'm tired already, just thinking about it.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com