December 5, 2022 • 42 mins
There are two themes of today’s show: the first is location, and the second is queer identity. There exist derogatory stereotypes about both, which could be described as either xenophobic or homophobic. Today's conversation touches on the intersectionality of these stereotypes in China, and the way in which we can either casually dispel them or defiantly embrace them. In either case, we can have fun joking about them and stripping them of their venom. As well as being involved in queer cinema projects such SHQFF and CINEMQ, today's guest Xie Xiao participates in many other queer voluntary groups in China. And he has many stories that reflect his own personal background, as well as those of the people with whom he engages in the China LGBTQ+ community. The episode also includes catch-up interviews with: 'Cocosanti' from Season 02 Episode 05 https://mosaicofchina.com/season-02-episode-05-cocosanti and Sebastien Denes from Season 01 Episode 11 https://mosaicofchina.com/season-01-episode-11-sebastien-denes 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 02:06 - Part 1 22:56 - Part 2 30:37 - Outro 33:18 - Catch-Up Interview [1] 37:55 - Catch-Up Interview [2] Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at: https://mosaicofchina.com/season-03-episode-13-xie-xiao Join the community: Instagram https://instagram.com/oscology LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/mosaicofchina Facebook https://facebook.com/mosaicofchina WeChat https://mosaicofchina.com/wechat
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
[Trailer]XX: I love my family back in 重庆 [Chóngqìng].
And also I have a chosen family here in Shanghai.
I have four mothers.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina.
I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
There are two themes in today’s show.
(00:23):
The first is location.
Three years ago, I would have said that mypersonal lifestyle was completely location
agnostic.
I don’t say that so much these days, sinceI haven’t stepped off the Chinese mainland
in all this time.
When someone feels ‘dislocated’ that’snot a good thing, but is there also something
(00:43):
you can call being ‘over-located’?!
I’ve managed to heal myself of this feelingof ‘over-location’ by going to places
that remind me of my previous lifestyle, headingto the parts of China that border closely
with Thailand, or Myanmar, or Korea, or Tajikistan.
It’s not the same as traveling to thoseplaces, but at least it’s close.
(01:06):
So it’s funny to have discovered a placeon the Chinese mainland that surprised me
by reminding me so closely of Hong Kong, despitethe two cities being many miles apart.
If you haven’t already guessed where I’mtalking about, you’ll figure it out pretty
soon.
The second theme of today’s show is queeridentity.
Honestly, it’s not a subject we can talkabout too explicitly on this show.
(01:31):
But I’ve done my best to cover this topicfrom a few angles.
At one point we discuss the reaction in Chinato the Oscar-winning movie Moonlight, at one
point we discuss the queer scene in Shanghai,and at one point we discuss language that
is homophobic and even racially prejudiced.
The tone of this whole episode is energetic,playful and provocative.
(01:53):
But while my guest and I are both having fun,we do so knowing full well that we’re talking
about some very serious issues.
So with that little trigger warning in effect,let’s start the show.
[Part 1]OF: Well, thank you very much Xie Xiao.
How am I saying your name wrong?
XX (02:11):
Actually, when you did the podcast with Cocosanti, you both said my name wrong.
OF (02:15):
Well let's get your name right first.
XX (02:17):
OK.
OF (02:18):
Give me the tones as well, so I can try and get that right.
XX (02:20):
‘谢 [Xiè]' is fourth tone, ‘虓 [Xiāo]’ is first tone.
OF (02:24):
OK, ‘谢虓 [Xiè Xiāo]’.
XX (02:25):
Yeah.
OF (02:26):
OK.
XX (02:27):
Some foreigners say this sounds like “*** show”.
I quite like that though.
OF (02:30):
Your life is a **** show.
XX (02:32):
I mean, kinda.
Because my very close friends called me “DiarrhoeaQueen”, because I have very poor stomach.
I **** a lot.
OF (02:38):
Wow, we've gone straight to the most personal part of your life.
Well, I want to talk about Cocosanti who referredyou.
But before we do, let's talk about the objectthat you have prepared…
XX (02:49):
OK.
OF (02:50):
… that in some way represents your life in China.
So what is it?
XX (02:53):
You know, I participate in the Shanghai Queer Film Festival.
It's a local queer film festival founded inShanghai.
Every year we invite some local artists todo some special postcards.
Oops, sorry, I just broke it.
So each one of them are very beautiful.
They choose one queer film, and make a postcard.
OF (03:11):
Well, can you leave them out.
Because I want to have them on display whilewe're talking.
XX (03:15):
OK, sure.
OF (03:16):
Because a lot of what we're gonna talk about is your work.
Why don't we start with that then?
So tell me, what is the Shanghai Queer FilmFestival?
XX (03:21):
OK first of all, I participate in several queer groups in Shanghai.
The Shanghai Queer Film Festival is just oneof them.
When I just came to Shanghai, I didn't knowanybody.
But I wanted to get into a community.
So I met some friends.
At one dinner, they said they're working withthe Queer Film Festival.
I didn't know that.
OF (03:39):
What year was this?
XX (03:40):
2016.
Because I came to Shanghai in 2016.
OF (03:43):
Where were you from originally?
XX (03:45):
重庆 [Chóngqìng].
It’s the hotpot city.
OF (03:47):
重庆 [Chóngqìng]!
XX (03:48):
Yeah.
OF (03:49):
Do you know, I've just been to 重庆 [Chóngqìng] for the first time.
XX (03:51):
Oh really?
OF (03:52):
Yes.
We'll come back to it.
XX (03:54):
OK.
So they said they’re working with the ShanghaiQueer Film Festival.
And I said “Just put me in!
Just put me in!
I want to do anything, I just want to participatein it!”
OF (04:00):
Nice.
XX (04:01):
So that's when I joined in, yeah.
OF (04:04):
OK, so what is your role with the festival?
XX (04:06):
I manage the content bits.
OF (04:07):
OK.
XX (04:08):
I write articles, and take charge of the social media content.
OF (04:12):
Do you also have a hand in choosing which films are selected?
XX (04:16):
No, that’s other groups.
OF (04:17):
OK.
XX (04:18):
Like the short film group, and the feature film group.
OF (04:21):
What films have you shown in the past?
XX (04:24):
Actually, I think everyone can just check our official WeChat group
Film Festival.
Every year is not very easy to do a queerfilm festival in Shanghai.
So every time when we successfully hold anevent, we consider it a huge success.
That's meaningful.
Not the films we’re screening, but the eventitself.
OF (04:41):
That's right.
XX (04:42):
Yeah.
OF (04:43):
Well, I'm going to to ask you just for an example of one of the films that you would
have seen.
Did it have some kind of impact on you?
XX (04:50):
The film is called ‘Leitis in Waiting’.
OF (04:53):
Ladies?
XX (04:54):
Leitis.
Leitis is a word in Tonga - Tonga is a Pacificnation - And ‘Leitis’ means trans women.
So ‘Leitis in Waiting’ is a documentarywhich shows trans women in Tonga, how they're
living.
It's really interesting, there’s a hugetrans community in a Pacific island nation.
OF (05:12):
Yeah.
XX (05:13):
Actually, they have a very big trans culture in Tonga.
But when the British people came…
I'm sorry.
OF (05:18):
Oh dear.
XX (05:19):
Yeah, suddenly the people just don't like them anymore.
OF (05:20):
Yes.
And you make an interesting point about theBritish Empire, because a lot of the laws
which are now seen by the West as anti-LGBTQ+came from that era, right?
XX (05:31):
Never banned before.
OF (05:32):
Exactly.
XX (05:33):
Yeah.
OF (05:34):
So now we in the West look down on these people saying “Hey, get with the programme.”
But actually, they don't realise that it'sbecause of the West that they have these laws.
XX (05:41):
Yeah.
Because in most of the countries, they actuallyhad rights.
The culture accepted them before.
OF (05:46):
Yeah.
Well, let's talk about China then.
Because you’re holding this festival inShanghai.
And as you say, it's not easy.
What do you mean by that?
XX (05:55):
All the events must be free.
OF (05:57):
Mm-hm.
XX (05:58):
We can’t charge money.
OF (05:59):
Yes.
XX (06:00):
And it's very hard to find a place to show the films.
We can't just show them in the cinema.
So we need to raise money.
And we need to find a place to screen.
And we need to organise dozens of people.
We're all volunteers this group.
OF (06:12):
Right.
XX (06:13):
Nobody gets any money.
We're just doing it for love.
OF (06:16):
Yes.
And that reminds me of an episode I did inSeason 01 of this show, which was with a playwright
called Nick Yu.
And he explained the law, that if you areselling a ticket, that's when you have to
get in touch with the content board who helpsto pass that film for public viewing, right?
XX (06:33):
Yeah.
OF (06:34):
So the fact that you're not selling tickets, that means that you have a bit more freedom
in terms of what you can show, correct?
XX (06:39):
I mean, we can just say like, it's someone's birthday.
We're just holding a birthday party.
OF (06:44):
Yes, yes.
Which it is, I mean, it is a private groupultimately, right?
XX (06:48):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
OF (06:49):
And then when you say the venue itself is hard to find, what do you mean by that?
XX (06:52):
Sometimes, when we reached out to a venue - when we need to explain to the owner that
we wanted to show films - they will ask “Whatkind of films are you showing?”
We will explain “Well, there will be gaysand lesbians in the films,” some owners
will say “No, that's too sensitive.”
But luckily, we have some owners who are verywilling to help us.
OF (07:09):
Because it's not about the law.
There's no law against it.
XX (07:12):
It’s very vague.
OF (07:13):
Yes.
XX (07:14):
There’s no specific law that says that you can't show queer firms in China.
But it's very vague, so nobody knows whatto do.
OF (07:22):
This is it.
And that's what this kind of vague law promotes,in terms of content creation, right?
XX (07:28):
Yeah.
But they don't know what we're gonna show.
So it's kind of like we fear them; they fearus also.
So I'm quite used to it.
And I don't think that's much of a problemnow.
OF (07:39):
Yeah.
Well this is it right?
It becomes so normalised…
XX (07:42):
Yeah.
OF (07:43):
… That you sort of work out how to exist within these boundaries.
XX (07:46):
Yeah.
OF (07:47):
Well, we talked at the beginning about Cocosanti and I both ruining the way that
we said your name.
Why don't we listen to that referral fromlast season, here is…
XX (07:56):
I just listened to it last night.
[Start of Audio Clip]C: There is an individual named Xie Xiao.
He is one of the heads for CIMEMQ, which isa queer film initiative in Shanghai.
I think it'd be really fun to have a conversationwith him because he has great stories.
Because he also does work with another programmecalled Queer Talks as well.
(08:17):
[End of Audio Clip]XX: The first time I met her is when she was
on stage.
There was a drag competition in Lucca.
They had two groups, a professional groupand an amateur group.
She was actually in the amateur group.
OF (08:30):
Oh.
XX (08:31):
But her performance was so good.
And I felt “Wow.”
That performance, I remember really clearly.
OF (08:37):
Nice.
XX (08:38):
Back then she didn't know me, but…
Shanghai is very big - it’s a massive city- but also Shanghai is a very small city for
queer people.
You know, we often go to the same venues,we often go to queer events, you always meet
some familiar people.
So we saw each other and I said “Hello”and she said “Hello".
And then had a talk, and we became friends.
That's just how people meet in Shanghai.
OF (08:59):
It's actually nice when I hear you describe it, because what you're describing is a real
community.
I think in many cities around the world - especiallybig cities like Shanghai - we’re losing
this community, because a lot of the stuffis happening online, especially when it comes
to meeting each other.
A lot of stuff now is getting more mainstream.
Here, there is still that close community.
(09:20):
Do you think that is still the case, fiveyears later?
XX (09:23):
Right now I am very satisfied, right now I am very happy, that I have such a community,
that I have so many venues to visit.
And I have so many friends that I can callthem my family.
You know, I love my original family back in重庆 [Chóngqìng] - they love me so much,
I came out to them, and they except me andthey embraced me - and also I have a chosen
family here in Shanghai, who I also love.
I have four mothers.
(09:43):
I always say “It's the same”.
You know why?
Because I have my origin family, who acceptme for who I am, and I know what family looks
like.
I know what real family - who will love you100% - looks like.
And what I feel about my original family in重庆 [Chóngqìng] and what I feel about
my friends in Shanghai, I feel the same feeling.
The feeling is exactly the same.
So your chosen family, you can call your family.
(10:04):
Because that's real.
OF (10:06):
And this phrase ‘chosen family’ is quite common in LGBTQ circles, right?
XX (10:11):
Yes.
OF (10:12):
Would you say most people who came from other provincial cities to Shanghai, would
they have had a different experience to yourfamily in 重庆 [Chóngqìng]?
XX (10:19):
I’m very lucky.
OF (10:21):
Right?
X (10:22):
Yeah but it's very interesting.
Many people, when I’ve told my story, theysay “Did one of your parents live in a foreign
city?”
OF (10:28):
Right.
XX (10:29):
… “Or living in America before?
Because they sound so open-minded.”
But both my parents are born and raised in重庆 [Chóngqìng], they’re high school
mates.
They never went abroad.
They haven’t even been to Hong Kong/Macaubefore.
They’re just open-minded.
My father said “People who cannot acceptdiversity are the one who are unacceptable.”
OF (10:47):
How do you explain that?
XX (10:49):
I know.
I know, yeah.
I'm just too lucky.
My parents always said to me “Well, areyou happy?”
OF (10:54):
Wow.
Are you tempted to have them talk with theparents of other queer people in China?
XX (10:59):
I do want them to.
But they don't like big cities, it's so crowded.
OF (11:03):
Hang on, hang on, stop, stop.
重庆 [Chóngqìng] is the most crowded placeI've been to in China!
XX (11:07):
That's why they don't like big cities.
They always run away from 重庆 [Chóngqìng].
Like “Where are you?”
“I'm in Tibet.”
“Where are you?”
“I’m in 新疆 [Xīnjiāng].”
OF (11:13):
Oh right.
XX (11:14):
They run marathons.
OF (11:15):
Yeah!
XX (11:16):
They biked from 重庆 [Chóngqìng] to Tibet.
OF (11:17):
I should be interviewing your parents, man.
These sound like amazing people.
Now is a good excuse me to talk about 重庆[Chóngqìng] because it's one of those places
that is not on most people's radars as foreigners,right?
We haven't got the excuse to go there.
Of course, we all know about 重庆 [Chóngqìng]hotpot, 重庆 [Chóngqìng] is very famous
for hotpot.
It's famous for maybe some politicians whoused to be in charge.
That’s really the only thing that I knewabout 重庆 [Chóngqìng] before I went there.
(11:38):
In fact, I went there because I was doinga layover between two cities, and I thought
“Oh, I haven't been to 重庆 [Chóngqìng]so I might as well go through 重庆 [Chóngqìng]
and spend a weekend there.”
When I went there, it was like “Wow, I don'tknow enough about China.”
Because it really had its own energy, whichI was surprised at.
It was like Hong Kong with this Mainland Chinaveneer on top.
It was like “Why has it taken me so longto be in 重庆 [Chóngqìng]?”
XX (12:01):
I'm very surprised too, because even in 成都 [Chéngdū] you can select many foreigners.
But in 重庆 [Chóngqìng], no.
OF (12:07):
No!
XX (12:08):
Absolutely none.
Zero.
None.
OF (12:11):
And it’s millions of people, and I was the only foreigner.
XX (12:12):
Yeah.
OF (12:13):
Even in the centre of town.
XX (12:14):
Do you know that - maybe 20 years ago - they 重庆 [Chóngqìng] ‘Little Hong
Kong’?
Because of the landscape.
OF (12:18):
Yes, yes, yes.
I'm glad it wasn't just me then, good.
XX (12:20):
It’s bigger than Hong Kong actually.
OF (12:21):
Yes.
XX (12:22):
You know, 重庆 [Chóngqìng] people also walk very fast.
And we have so many stairs.
OF (12:26):
Oh, exactly.
I couldn't believe it.
I was following a map, I'm going from oneplace to the other…
XX (12:30):
Never trust a map when you're in 重庆 [Chóngqìng].
OF (12:32):
Yes!
XX (12:33):
You just ask people.
People are gonna say "Go up.”
“What do you mean ‘Go Up’?”
“Up!”
OF (12:38):
This is it.
When I was following a map, I realised "No,I can't get there.
Because there's a massive mountain in betweenme and that road.”
XX (12:43):
Yeah, maybe a cliff.
OF (12:44):
Yes.
Which was such a beautiful situation, becauseShanghai is so flat.
XX (12:49):
I know…
OF (12:50):
It’s so boring, right?
Especially when I first came here - this istalking, like, seven years ago - I came from
Hong Kong, right?
That where I last lived.
And then when I came to Shanghai first ofall, every corner was the same.
I couldn't differentiate one road from thenext.
XX (13:03):
Well, have you ever been to Beijing?
That's exactly the same.
Because my aunt used to live in Beijing.
So when I was a little kid, every summer Iwould visit Beijing.
Every road is so straight.
About thirty minutes, never turn.
OF (13:15):
Yes.
XX (13:16):
It was such a miracle for me.
OF (13:17):
I’m the same.
I come from London, and that's a place thatbuilt out very organically, so all the roads
are higgledy-piggledy, they have massive curves.
So every time I'm in a very planned city - whichis, let's say, most cities in the States for
example, they have blocks - I just feel likeit's not human enough.
We're not supposed to be so logical.
XX (13:33):
Yeah.
We're so weird.
Some people ask me “How do you feel whenpeople call you weird sometimes?”
I say "Everybody's weird”.
Because nobody can fit all the stereotypes,all the principals that any society puts on
you.
You're not a robot.
You’re not a programme.
We’re all at least a little bit weird.
OF (13:50):
We all have our weird stuff, exactly.
Let's talk about the way that you talk withyour friends.
Because this is something which I love.
You know, the language that the queer communityuse between each other.
XX (13:59):
Oh my god, we create our own slang sometimes.
Often, like in Western queer communities,we absorb the negativity.
OF (14:07):
You own it, right?
XX (14:09):
We own it.
OF (14:10):
Yeah.
XX (14:11):
And we turn that into something positive.
OF (14:12):
Right.
That's very common, right?
XX (14:14):
It’s very common.
And I don't know if I can say that word here: ****. People call you **** because they hate (14:15):
undefined
you.
But right now we can use that proudly, andsay "Yes, I am a ****. So what?
You cannot hurt me with your so-called negativewords any more.”
OF (14:30):
Right.
XX (14:31):
“Because we own that.”
OF (14:32):
And so what you're saying is, there are equivalent words in Chinese which you now
own.
But you don't want to say on a podcast, forexample.
XX (14:37):
I can say it.
Like, many people will call you “sissy boy: ****”. “We need more masculinity in China, (14:38):
undefined
so we don't want boys in China becoming moresissy.
We need masculinity.”
“Sissy boy” is such a bad word for people.
But we own that.
So easily.
We don't give a ****. I say “If you havea single bit of sissiness in your body - in
(14:59):
your system - just show it.”
And it's so much easier, just being yourselfcompletely.
OF (15:04):
Well, but that's why I'm really impressed with people like you.
Because I think you’re, what, then yearsyounger than me?
How old are you now?
XX (15:09):
29.
OF (15:10):
Yeah, you're 15 years younger than me.
And you've come to this conclusion way youngerthan I did.
XX (15:15):
Because I tried also…
When I was in high school maybe, I tried tobecome ’normal’.
And I failed.
I'm very bad at acting.
OF (15:22):
You have no choice.
XX (15:23):
I have no choice but to accept myself.
And I feel like “Well, you just don't knowwhat kind of potential you have in your body.
Don’t rush to come to a conclusion aboutyourself, or try to define yourself.
Every definition is a limitation.”
Don't try to define ‘queerness’.
That word doesn’t need any definition.
OF (15:40):
Do you say it in Chinese?
XX (15:41):
Yeah, 酷儿 [kù’er].
OF (15:42):
酷儿 [Kù’er].
XX (15:43):
Yeah 酷儿 [kù’er], it sounds cute.
OF (15:44):
Yeah.
XX (15:45):
It just sounds cute.
OF (15:46):
Yeah.
So we've talked about how you feel acceptedin Shanghai.
Like, what is the status of LGBTQ+ peoplein Shanghai - in China - right now.
XX (15:56):
Every city is different.
Every province is different.
OF (15:59):
Right.
XX (16:00):
And even in one city, I know people who wouldn't dare to come out to anybody, they’re
living in Shanghai too.
So different people think in different ways.
Like in some people's minds, gay people andlesbian people are separated.
Also, like there is a Chinese queer peoplegroup, and one for foreigners.
OF (16:16):
Yeah.
XX (16:17):
I just don't know why people are so interested in putting people in different kinds of boxes.
Sometimes people enjoy that, and I just thinkthat's ridiculous.
Yes, there is racism in China.
And yes, there is xenophobia in China.
And yes, within the queer community, also.
OF (16:31):
Right.
XX (16:32):
That doesn't mean that this queer community in China is very depressed.
That depends on what kind of community youwant to join, and what kind of community you
want to be.
OF (16:42):
Mmm.
You know what, you're making me think aboutsomething which if you're in the community,
you've heard this.
But maybe there are people listening who havenever heard this.
Foreigners versus Chinese people within thequeer community, there are a few phrases that
I've heard.
XX (16:55):
OK.
OF (16:56):
It’s about ‘rice’.
XX (16:57):
‘Rice queen’?
OF (16:58):
Yes.
XX (16:59):
It means basically a foreigner who is fond of East Asian people.
OF (17:02):
Yep.
What's the equivalent for the other way around?
XX (17:05):
I don't know.
What… potato?
OF (17:07):
Potato.
XX (17:08):
Actually, this is the first time I’ve heard that.
OF (17:09):
You’ve never heard of ‘potato queen’?
XX (17:10):
No.
OF (17:11):
That’s what you would call an East Asian who is looking for a white guy.
XX (17:15):
Oh wow.
OF (17:16):
A ‘potato queen’.
XX (17:17):
We call that differently in China
means ‘western food.’
OF (17:20):
Ah yeah, cos it's about food, it is about food.
OK, so what do you call it when there aretwo East Asians who are attracted to each
other?
Do you have a word for that, because we doin English?
XX (17:29):
Oh really?
Two East Asian like….
No, we don't have that.
OF (17:34):
Sticky rice.
XX (17:35):
Wow.
OF (17:36):
It’s terrible.
This is it.
This is the kind of racist language that existswithin the queer community.
XX (17:41):
Yes.
OF (17:42):
If you can use your logic here.
What do you think it…
XX (17:45):
Mashed potato?
OF (17:46):
You got it!
We’re laughing about it, it’s wrong, right?
XX (17:51):
It's wrong.
And we can talk about it.
Because there is an issue, that’s why weneed to talk about it.
But we need to understand why this word exists,why it's bad, and what can we do to improve
it?
Should we just cancel it?
Or use it again, but in a different way?
OF (18:04):
Yeah.
XX (18:05):
They’re just words.
OF (18:06):
Yeah.
XX (18:07):
It's how we define them, how we use them.
OF (18:08):
Yeah.
You know, what I know from people's profileson dating apps, they would specifically say
things like ‘No Asians,’ you know?
XX (18:14):
Oh there are so many examples, I know.
OF (18:17):
Right?
It's really prevalent.
That we can be in a community which is oppressedin some ways, and yet we can still - within
our community - oppress others.
XX (18:26):
Yes, I find that very interesting.
You know, every dating app in China, therewill also be people who say ‘No foreigners’
or ‘No Asians’.
OF (18:33):
You see?
XX (18:34):
And I feel like “Hello?"
We desperately wanted to let the whole worldtreat us as human beings, but we treat ourselves
like meat and vegetables at the market.
That's ridiculous.
OF (18:45):
Yeah.
There is some kind of deep-rooted self-loathing,self-hatred.
XX (18:51):
Yes.
They’re like traitors of being queer.
Is that really who you are?
If you are comfortable, I praise you.
But if you're not, that means you're not happy.
OF (19:02):
Yeah.
XX (19:03):
Yeah.
OF (19:04):
The way I actually accept the word ‘queer' is I think about it in terms of, right, procreation.
XX (19:08):
Procreation?
OF (19:09):
‘Procreation’ means having a baby.
XX (19:11):
OK.
OF (19:12):
And that's ‘normal’, right?
XX (19:13):
OF.
OF (19:14):
Anything which doesn't lead to procreation - anything which is not that - you could call
‘queer.’
So what I mean by that is, if there is a heteronormativecouple, and they're not doing anything which
is going to lead to a baby being born, that'squeer!
XX (19:28):
Yeah.
OF (19:29):
What you find out when you define it that way is that everybody is queer.
Everybody has done things in the privacy oftheir bedroom…
XX (19:36):
Sure.
OF (19:37):
… Which doesn't lead to creating babies.
Everyone.
XX (19:39):
Yeah, my expression is a little bit different, but I also believe everybody is queer.
I mean, if you ever have any sexual fantasy,that means you're queer.
If you don't have any sexual fantasy, thatmeans you're asexual, that’s also queer.
OF (19:49):
There you go.
XX (19:50):
So.
OF (19:51):
End of story, we're all defined under that one umbrella.
XX (19:52):
Yeah.
OF (19:53):
I guess the issue right now in China is representation.
Where you and I can have this conversationon this English-speaking podcast.
If we were doing a TV show in China, we couldn'ttalk this openly, right?
XX (20:02):
I don’t know.
Maybe not?
Maybe?
I'm not sure.
You know, like, the law is very vague.
We don't know.
OF (20:09):
Well, you certainly don't see it right now.
XX (20:10):
No.
OF (20:11):
And you certainly see the opposite.
You certainly see now, the messaging comingout about “it's a shrinking population”,
right?
So there's a demographical issue, that youhave to make more children in China.
But then how, in that case, do you think youcan create more people who are like your parents,
who are understanding and accepting?
XX (20:26):
First of all, we just talk.
We just share our minds, we share our thoughts.
Every time when we do a talk, I can see thatsomething is happening.
Even if it's a very tiny little bit, everytalk matters.
And also with CINEMQ, people often say “Whydo you choose to use screening films as a
tool to extend your message” or something.
(20:47):
Matthew thinks - he’s one of the co-foundersof CINEMQ - and also everybody else thinks
the same way, because movies are fun.
People like watching movies.
And what we're showing are queer movies, whichare more interesting.
That's it.
It's very simple.
Just have fun.
OF (21:02):
Yeah.
XX (21:03):
Girls just wanna have fun.
OF (21:04):
You mention Matthew.
He is someone who has been behind CINEMQ…
XX (21:06):
She is like my third or fourth mother.
OF (21:09):
Matthew Baren?
XX (21:10):
Yes.
OF (21:11):
So let's talk about that.
Tell me about your four mothers.
XX (21:13):
My first mother is my biological mother in 重庆 [Chóngqìng].
I love her so much.
We're like sisters, so each time we just hangout in the street, we go shopping, we drink
bubble tea, and we talk about men.
That's my first mom.
My second mom is my college friend.
She’s so funny.
She's the one who actually told me “Youknow, being a slut is not a bad thing.
(21:34):
It’s how you own your body.
But make sure it's safe.”
OF (21:37):
Yeah, well this is a whole feminist aspect we haven't even talked about.
But keep going.
XX (21:42):
Yeah.
The third or fourth mother is Matthew Barenand Will Dai.
OF (21:45):
Ah, they’re partners, right?
XX (21:47):
Yeah.
I'm gonna tell you the story about how I metthem.
Moonlight won the Oscar.
OF (21:51):
Ah yes.
XX (21:52):
And I got very angry because there are so many Chinese reviews which were so bad.
People said “I just don't like black people.”
OF (22:00):
Oh.
XX (22:01):
People said “This film only won the Oscar because of political correctness.”
Or “The PC issue has gone too far in Westerncountries.”
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
There were so many of them.
Of course, there were so many people who verymuch liked this film, including me, and including
many other people.
Moonlight was kinda like a bomb which explodedall the issues out onto the surface.
And so I typed in a WeChat group saying "Iwant to write an article to discuss that.”
(22:24):
And so Matthew replied to me in that group,and said "You need to write that article.”
So I wrote it, and I sent it to them, theygot it published.
And we never met before.
And there was one time one night, I was sittingoutside of a bar.
And I just saw Matthew and Will, passing by.
And I just approached, saying “Hello.
You don't know me, but I know you."
(22:45):
And that's the first time I met them.
OF (22:46):
And that's how you got into CINEMQ.
XX (22:48):
That night changed everything.
OF (22:50):
And that's why we're here today.
Xie Xiao, thank you very much.
Let's move on to Part 2.
XX (22:56):
OK.
[Part 2]OF: Alright, let’s jump straight in.
Question 1 from Shanghai Daily (23:01):
What is your favourite China-related fact?
XX (23:06):
The thing that most impressed me is how China changes so fast.
Every year is different.
I don't even recognise where I grew up.
The building is gone.
Everything is gone.
The road is gone.
The mountains are gone!
OF (23:19):
Yes.
XX (23:20):
Every time when I go back to 重庆 [Chóngqìng], I know that she's always beautiful, and she's
always fierce.
But is that a city I know?
I just hope that the characteristics don'tchange.
OF (23:30):
Yeah.
What is one physical representation of 重庆[Chóngqìng]?
Is there like something which makes you think"Ah, I'm back in 重庆 [Chóngqìng]” when
you see it?
XX (23:38):
Hotpot.
When I smell that, “***, I’m home.”
OF (23:42):
Mmm.
Yeah, this is the thing, because I was in重庆 [Chóngqìng] but I was there by myself.
And it's actually quite hard to eat hotpotby yourself.
XX (23:48):
I know.
Yes, yes.
It's not just for one person.
OF (23:51):
Yeah, I still haven't eaten hotpot in 重庆 [Chóngqìng].
XX (23:53):
Aw.
OF (23:54):
So I have to go back with a group.
XX (23:55):
You have to go back with a group, and with a group where every one of them can eat
spicy food.
OF (23:59):
Yeah.
Next question, which comes from Rosetta Stone: Do you have a favourite word or phrase in (24:00):
undefined
Chinese?
XX (24:05):
I love Chinese.
You just have to learn the logic, you cancreate your own words, you know.
But I do have one word that I very much like.
It's 含蓄 [hánxù], I don't even know howto translate it.
OF (24:17):
含蓄 [Hánxù].
XX (24:18):
It’s kinda like ‘ambiguous’, ‘vague’, ‘soft', something like that.
Sometimes you can use it like “The way ofyour speaking is very 含蓄 [hánxù].”
And that means "I can understand you, butit's not very clear.”
You know, like an iceberg.
You only speak the level one, but the remainingnine levels, I have to understand, I have
to interpret it.
OF (24:38):
I hear exactly what you mean.
It's actually a really interesting representationof the language.
XX (24:42):
Yeah.
OF (24:43):
Because I think so much Chinese has got this 含蓄 [hánxù], right?
XX (24:45):
Yeah, yeah.
It's just like “Guess what I'm talking about?”
OF (24:48):
Yeah.
OK next question which comes from naked Retreats: What’s your favourite destination within (24:49):
undefined
China?
XX (24:55):
So far, Shanghai.
OF (24:56):
Shanghai.
XX (24:57):
I'm very glad I chose to come to Shanghai five years ago.
Somehow I just chose Shanghai because maybeBeijing’s too ‘north’.
Shanghai is more familiar.
And it's also like, all the people who liveby the Yangtze River will feel exactly the
same feeling.
Like, we feel that river means so much.
OF (25:12):
Because that's the river that flows through 重庆 [Chóngqìng], right?
XX (25:15):
Flows through 重庆 [Chóngqìng], 武汉 [Wǔhàn], 南京 [Nánjīng] and Shanghai.
So every time when I visit a city that hasthe Yangtze River running through it, I feel
like “Oh, I love this city” at first sight.
Just because the same water feeds us.
OF (25:28):
That's so nice that you can look at the river here in Shanghai, and say “That's
been through my hometown.”
XX (25:32):
Yeah, well we also have a very vicious version.
Like Shanghainese people are always drinkingour ****. Because 重庆 [Chóngqìng] very,
like, upper…
OF (25:41):
You’re upstream.
XX (25:42):
Yeah, upstream.
Like, Shanghai is the end of it.
So…
I’m sorry.
OF (25:46):
Oh that’s so funny.
XX (25:47):
But I live here now.
I drink my own ****.OF: That's a whole different podcast.
So sorry.
OF (25:53):
Oh brilliant.
If you left China, what would you miss themost, and what would you miss the least?
XX (25:58):
Oh…
OF (25:59):
Because you've never lived overseas, right?
XX (26:00):
Never.
OF (26:01):
No.
XX (26:02):
I can only imagine.
OF (26:03):
Go on then.
XX (26:04):
I would definitely miss hotpot the most.
OF (26:05):
I knew you'd say that, you’re so predictable.
XX (26:08):
That’s because all other people would say exactly the same.
OF (26:11):
You’re a conformist person?
XX (26:13):
I mean, my veins run with hotpot.
It's just my soul.
OF (26:19):
You can't help it.
What would you miss the least, if you left?
XX (26:22):
I don't know.
I don't know!
Oh my god, I feel like I'm such a terriblestudent.
I'm so sorry, teacher.
OF (26:29):
This is maybe what you were talking before about acceptance.
You have to accept yourself.
Living in China is about accepting the goodand bad, right?
XX (26:37):
Yeah.
OF (26:38):
There you go, I've made it into a clever answer.
Next question, is there anything that stillsurprises you about life in China?
XX (26:47):
外卖 [Wàimài].
OF (26:48):
Oh 外卖 [wàimài], as in, ordering food online?
XX (26:50):
Yeah.
I just can't believe I can just order foodat 3am.
It still surprises me, even though I'm a Chineseperson.
OF (26:57):
And can I guess what kind of food you order on 外卖 [Wàimài]?
XX (27:00):
You can’t just order a formal hotpot.
But you can order 冒菜 [màocài] whichis kinda like the hotpot for just one person.
That's what I order the most.
OF (27:08):
Of course.
XX (27:09):
Of course.
OF (27:10):
Can you get something which you would say is authentically 重庆 [Chóngqìng]
hotpot in Shanghai?
XX (27:13):
No.
OF (27:14):
No, right?
XX (27:15):
I’m sorry Shanghai, no.
But I forgive Shanghai for that.
Because nobody can just do it like 重庆[Chóngqìng] people do.
OF (27:19):
There you go.
This is all one big advert for 重庆 [Chóngqìng]after all.
Next question, which comes from SmartShanghai: Where is your favourite place to go out, to (27:24):
undefined
eat or drink or just hang out?
XX (27:29):
Elevator.
It’s near 徐家汇 [Xújiāhuì] it’s南丹东 [Nándān dōng] Road.
It's an underground bar.
They do techno music, and they hold queerparties.
Parties where you can always embrace yourgender expression.
If you dress up in drag, you can get in forfree.
OF (27:44):
Aha.
And have you been in drag yourself?
XX (27:46):
Not yet, but…
OF (27:48):
Not yet?
XX (27:49):
I'm so sorry, not yet.
But many people want to do it for me.
Because I never know how to do makeup.
OF (27:53):
But they can do it for you.
XX (27:54):
They can do it for me.
OF (27:55):
Between this recording and when it gets released, there’s probably a few months.
XX (27:59):
OK.
OF (28:00):
So my challenge to you is, by the time this episode is released, you have to have
had one evening out in drag.
Promise?
XX (28:07):
OK.
OF (28:09):
Alright, next question.
What is the best or worst purchase you'vemade in China?
XX (28:14):
Well, I love Apple products.
So the recent Apple product I bought is thewatch I'm wearing.
OF (28:18):
Oh look.
XX (28:19):
So yes.
OF (28:20):
Nice.
The one company that does not need to haveadvertising on this podcast.
XX (28:23):
Yeah, I'm sorry but I'm such an Apple whore.
OF (28:27):
Next question.
What is your favourite WeChat sticker?
OK, send it to me now.
XX (28:32):
There's a lady doing a very funny gesture.
Kind of like, use her hands as a curtain toreveal herself.
Like “Huh” “Huh" “Hello.”
I love people being confident, even thoughpeople don't think they have the guts to be
confident.
OF (28:48):
Yeah!
XX (28:49):
Yeah.
OF (28:50):
Nice.
What is your go-to song to sing at KTV?
XX (28:52):
Well, I love KTV, so…
OF (28:54):
Thank you.
Somebody who is young, who loves KTV…
I appreciate that.
XX (28:59):
I recently love a very old song in China, it’s called '爱不爱我 [Ài bù ài wǒ
- Love me or not]’ It’s by a band called零点乐队 [Língdiǎn Yuèduì].
I just like to sing this song because youcan just roar.
“你到底爱不爱我？[Nǐ dàodǐ àibù ài wǒ?]”
OF (29:12):
Yeah.
And I like how it's like “Just tell me,yes or no”, right?
It's that kind of feeling.
XX (29:17):
Like “Do you love me or not?”
OF (29:19):
OK, you and I have to go out.
And finally from JustPod, which is the studiowe are in today: What or who is your biggest
source of inspiration in China?
XX (29:31):
First of all
Also, all the queer people.
There are so many of us.
We don't know each other but it’s like rootsunderground.
We connect to each other somehow, throughexperience, through culture, through everything.
OF (29:46):
Yeah.
XX (29:47):
You can say, like “I feel you.”
OF (29:48):
Yeah.
There you go, everyone.
Feel the love, guys.
Xie Xiao, thank you so much.
XX (29:52):
Thank you, thank you.
OF (29:53):
And before you leave, who is the person who you would recommend that I interview in
the next season of Mosaic of China?
XX (30:00):
Lilian Shen, her Chinese name is 沈乐琦 [Shěn Lèqí].
She grew up in multiple countries (30:04):
in Singapore, Shanghai, UK and US.
And she has done so many feminist events andorganisations in Shanghai.
OF (30:13):
Mmm.
This is long overdue, to talk to somebodywho can give the feminist story in China.
So I can't wait to talk with Lilian.
XX (30:21):
Yeah, I can say that that issue is very complicated, and she's the right person to
talk with.
OF (30:26):
Great.
And if there was one question you would askLilian, what question would you ask her?
XX (30:31):
Where are you?
I haven't met you for ages.
OF (30:34):
Thank you again.
XX (30:36):
Thank you, Oscar.
[Outro]OF: So I was looking down my list of all the
guests we’ve had on Mosaic of China so far,and I think Xie Xiao is the 14th LGBTQ+ person
we’ve had on the show.
And that’s just to my knowledge, there’sprobably more than that.
(30:56):
Sometimes it’s good to talk about it, sometimesit’s fine to let it be 含蓄 [hánxù].
Just like we don’t need to discuss eachguest’s favourite breakfast, we also don’t
need to discuss their sexual preferences orgender expression.
It’s all just part of the Mosaic.
As always, there’s more content in the PREMIUMversion of the podcast.
(31:17):
Head to mosaicofchina.com for details on howto subscribe, and here are some clips from
today’s show: [Clip 1] (31:22):
undefined
XX (31:24):
I appreciate you, I understand you, I love you.
But I don't know how to define the terms youjust said.
[Clip 2]XX: My cousin is the only grandchild on her
side.
And we both decided we won't have any children.
OF (31:34):
Oh right!
[Clip 3]XX: They think “But in my neighbourhood,
homosexuality is such a taboo.”
They are afraid to come out to you.”
[Clip 4]OF: They keep the rules vague on purpose,
so that we never quite know where the lineis.
[Clip 5]XX: I know there are so many queer people
in China who have a very hard life.
I know their stories, I heard them.
[Clip 6]OF: “Are you a comrade?”
The answer is..?
XX (31:52):
Yes.
Both.
Yes.
OF (31:55):
Both, exactly.
[Clip 7]XX: It doesn't matter if your family except
you or not.
But it does matter if you accept you.
[Clip 8]XX: When I visited Japan, I felt like sometimes
they were like more Chinese than the Chinese.
Yep.
[Clip 9]OF: Do you feel that pressure externally still?
XX (32:08):
Never.
[Clip 10]XX: So many people, they don't understand
it at all!
OF (32:12):
Right.
XX (32:13):
I wanted to know why.
[Clip 11]XX: A, B, C, D, they all sound right, but
they all sound wrong.
Can I choose all of them?
[End of Audio Clips]
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artworkby Denny Newell.
As always there are lots of images alongsidetoday’s show on the website or on social
media, including Xie Xiao’s favourite WeChatsticker, photos of his families - both biological
(32:36):
and chosen - and many more.
What you won’t find there is any photosof him in drag, because he’s still leaving
that to the professionals.
Speaking of which, you’re about to heara quick catch-up with the person who referred
Xie Xiao to the Mosaic, Cocosanti from Season02 Episode 05.
And there’s also a catch-up with the workplacediversity supporter working for SAP, Sebastien
(33:00):
Denes from Season 01 Episode 11.
Please enjoy them, please listen to theiroriginal episodes if you haven’t already
done so, and we’ll be back again with anothernew guest next week.
[Catch-Up Interview 1]OF: Coco!
C (33:18):
Hi!
OF (33:20):
Great to see you.
说曹操 [Shuō Cáocāo], and here you are.
Good to see you, man.
C (33:27):
Good to see you too.
How was your..?
I don't know what to call it.
OF (33:30):
Forced holiday?
C (33:31):
Yeah.
OF (33:32):
I've put on a few pounds.
But I don't mind being in front of you, becauseyou are very body positive.
C (33:37):
I am.
OF (33:38):
So I'm letting it all hang out.
C (33:39):
You should let it all hang out.
It's funny, the previous lockdown I gainedso much weight because I was just like “Nom
nom nom nom.”
But this lockdown, I was just so aware ofmyself and I just knew how to control myself.
OF (33:50):
Oh, OK.
You’ve obviously grown as a person.
I think I'm regressing, myself.
C (33:53):
No, it's fine.
Everyone needs to experience it at least once.
If you didn't do it the last lockdown, youhad to have done it this lockdown.
OF (34:00):
I suppose so.
How is Kevin doing?C: Oh, Kevin is wonderful.
He played an eggplant in my previous show.
Very good.
C (34:10):
Yeah.
OF (34:11):
I’m not going to mention what Kevin is.
If you haven't heard Cocosanti’s originalepisode, it's up to you to go back and listen
to it.
All will be revealed.
C (34:19):
Yeah, it is something special.
OF (34:20):
So where are you heading towards?
C (34:23):
Gosh, I am pushing myself a lot to keep creating as much as possible.
So my friend and I are starting a podcast.
OF (34:31):
Yes! C
We're starting a Disney podcast, ‘Ur BearNecessities', where we just kind of get drunk
and talk about Disney movies.
It sounds really basic because it probablyis.
But it's like, first we're gonna start withour Disney Princess films, and then we're
gonna go into talking animals, and then Pixar,and then…
(34:53):
You've planned it all out.
C (34:54):
Oh everything is planned out.
You know, I love planning.
After the last quarantine I met with a therapistand a counsellor and I was diagnosed with
ADHD, which was a mind-blowing experiencefor me.
Because I have ADHD-I - which is ‘ADHD-Internal’- which means that everything that I focus
on, I hyper-focus on.
So something like a podcast or making a videotakes a lot of work because I am hyper-focusing
(35:20):
on the smallest detail.
And that's what concerns me about online content.
For me, my perfectionism starts taking over.
Which is why I prefer live performances, becausethose little mistakes become not only part
of the performance, but they can become…
OF (35:36):
The best part.
C (35:37):
Yeah.
It really is, it just…
I don't have to beat myself up over makingthose small imperfections, like “Oh my god,
the sound here doesn't sound right.
This clip needs to match up perfectly.
Is he turning this way?
Is he turning left?”
It's crazy.
I don't know how Kim Kardashian does it.
OF (35:53):
So how are you going to stop yourself from doing that in your podcast?
C (35:57):
Oh gosh.
Erm.
I don't know.
I haven't taken any medication to controlit, so…
OF (36:05):
So what tools do you have then?
C (36:07):
Internal mental work.
OF (36:08):
Yeah.
C (36:09):
Which is just repeating to myself “It's good enough.”
OF (36:12):
Yes.
C (36:13):
So like, if I'm organising magazines on my table, I won't have to alphabetise them.
And…
it's an experience.
OF (36:19):
Yes.
You’re giving me this cheeky I-can’t-believe-I’m-saying-this-out-loudlaugh.
I'm laughing because it's so familiar to me.
Whenever I see anything about ADHD, I do wonderif I have an undiagnosed version of it.
C (36:34):
Yeah, I highly recommend to get tested for ADHD.
Because when I found out I was diagnosed withADHD, I kind of just broke down and understood
all of the factors in my life that could havebeen better.
I don't care how old you are, definitely getchecked out.
I have a friend who was diagnosed at 41.
Check it out, just… you never know.
(36:54):
You can kind of get more control over yourown life.
And that really does help.
OF (36:57):
Yeah, interesting.
I appreciate you opening up about that.
I think I read a couple of weeks ago, youposted something about that.
So I had known that you had ‘come out’with your ADHD diagnosis, something which
I had intended to speak to you about.
I'm glad that you volunteered it.
I think we have to wrap this up.
But before we do, of course I'm going to releasethis catch-up episode at the end of the episode
with the person who you referred for Season03, which is Xie Xiao.
C (37:21):
Yeah.
OF (37:22):
So have you and Xie Xiao managed to catch up of late?
C (37:25):
No, we haven't.
It’s just, I'm very busy.
I'm always…
being me, I guess.
That's a big one.
Usually CINEMQ occurs when I'm working.
So it's hard for me to go to the movie events.
But I highly recommend everyone goes to seequeer cinema, in any way shape or form.
It's definitely worth it.
OF (37:44):
Coco, thank you so much for coming in.
Great to see you.
C (37:47):
So good to see you.
OF (37:48):
And thank you for being part of this project.
It was a pleasure to speak to you last season,and it's great to see you again today.
C (37:55):
You too!
[Catch-Up Interview 2]SD: Can you hear me?
OF (37:58):
I can indeed.
Hello, Sebastien.
We are doing this call over Zoom.
But actually, we are both in Shanghai rightnow, correct?
SD (38:07):
Exactly.
I mean, we are on the two sides of the city,right?
OF (38:11):
Yes, you are on the 浦东 [Pǔdōng] side, I'm on the 浦西 [Pǔxī] side.
Just to introduce you to people who did nothear your original episode, you are a French
person, with an Italian wife, working fora German company, here in China, correct?
SD (38:26):
That's complicated, but correct.
OF (38:28):
Last time we talked, you had just moved into a new role in engineering.
Now are you still in that role, or have youmoved on again?
SD (38:37):
Yeah.
No I'm still there.
And working in a more international dimension.
My team in the past was essentially locatedin China.
This new team that I have, we have team membersin China, but also in India, in Japan, in
Southeast Asia, and in Australia/New Zealand.
So from a diversity perspective, that makesthe job very interesting.
OF (38:59):
Yes.
And this is actually touching upon the contentthat we had in your original episode, which
was about workplace diversity, and how youcan engineer a culture in a way that's more
accepting and more open.
Did you find yourself making any mistakesat the beginning, when you have been a little
bit more used to just managing Chinese people,and just managing salespeople?
(39:20):
Like, how was it when you transitioned?
SD (39:22):
Oh, not only at the beginning.
Still!
You know?
No, for sure, for sure.
You take a lot of things for granted.
The Sales and Services organisation is workingalmost like a military organisation, right?
So all these mechanics, this focus on financials,on timelines, and so on.
(39:42):
So for me, one of the major challenges wasto understand the different cultures, different
countries, different organisation and timelines,right?
And eventually, how I could - on one side- benefit from what they already had in place,
and how I could - on the other side - bringmy experience and management to this organisation,
(40:05):
so that we can progress and make it betterat the end of the day.
Which was essentially the reason why I washired in the first place, right?
OF (40:12):
Yes.
It does make me think about our original discussion,where we are talking about neurodiversity
- the way that you had successfully integratedemployees on the autism spectrum - and then
of course, all other kinds of diversity, likeage diversity, gender, LGBT, etc etc.
What I'm leading towards is, what do you thinkis happening when it comes to the conversation
(40:35):
around diversity, particularly in China?
Do you think it's staying the same?
Is it backsliding?
Do you still keep tabs of what the state ofthings are these days?
SD (40:44):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
And I think we haven't backslid.
What, on the other side, we do see is thatthe society is not getting much better.
OF (40:54):
Ah right.
SD (40:55):
Because China had a moment where it was catching up, comparatively to other countries.
And now other countries are moving faster.
And actually China, in the gender diversityranking, while still making progress, is falling
behind in that ranking.
Because many other countries have taken biggersteps, faster steps.
(41:17):
So it's a never-ending journey, at the endof the day.
OF (41:22):
I see.
Well, why don't we end our discussion by talkingabout the future, what are your plans?
SD (41:25):
What I can foresee is we're not leaving China.
Not yet, we’ll see what happens.
OF (41:31):
Yes.
SD (41:32):
We definitely are looking forward to an improvement of the situation here that I'm
sure will come soon, and look with very positiveeyes in the future.
OF (41:41):
Good.
I look forward to hopefully meeting you againin person.
Thank you so much, I'm always grateful tothe people from Season 01 like yourself who
said “Yes” to this project before theyeven knew what the hell it was.
Now we're already in Season 03, and it's greatto have this chance to catch up with you.
And I'm hoping that we will continue to stayin touch into the future.
SD (42:01):
Thank you very much Oscar, you too.
Bye bye.
[Trailer]XX: I love my family back in 重庆 [Chóngqìng].
And also I have a chosen family here in Shanghai.
I have four mothers.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina.
I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
There are two themes in today’s show.
(00:23):
The first is location.
Three years ago, I would have said that mypersonal lifestyle was completely location
agnostic.
I don’t say that so much these days, sinceI haven’t stepped off the Chinese mainland
in all this time.
When someone feels ‘dislocated’ that’snot a good thing, but is there also something
(00:43):
you can call being ‘over-located’?!
I’ve managed to heal myself of this feelingof ‘over-location’ by going to places
that remind me of my previous lifestyle, headingto the parts of China that border closely
with Thailand, or Myanmar, or Korea, or Tajikistan.
It’s not the same as traveling to thoseplaces, but at least it’s close.
(01:06):
So it’s funny to have discovered a placeon the Chinese mainland that surprised me
by reminding me so closely of Hong Kong, despitethe two cities being many miles apart.
If you haven’t already guessed where I’mtalking about, you’ll figure it out pretty
soon.
The second theme of today’s show is queeridentity.
Honestly, it’s not a subject we can talkabout too explicitly on this show.
(01:31):
But I’ve done my best to cover this topicfrom a few angles.
At one point we discuss the reaction in Chinato the Oscar-winning movie Moonlight, at one
point we discuss the queer scene in Shanghai,and at one point we discuss language that
is homophobic and even racially prejudiced.
The tone of this whole episode is energetic,playful and provocative.
(01:53):
But while my guest and I are both having fun,we do so knowing full well that we’re talking
about some very serious issues.
So with that little trigger warning in effect,let’s start the show.
[Part 1]OF: Well, thank you very much Xie Xiao.
How am I saying your name wrong?
XX (02:11):
Actually, when you did the podcast with Cocosanti, you both said my name wrong.
OF (02:15):
Well let's get your name right first.
XX (02:17):
OK.
OF (02:18):
Give me the tones as well, so I can try and get that right.
XX (02:20):
‘谢 [Xiè]' is fourth tone, ‘虓 [Xiāo]’ is first tone.
OF (02:24):
OK, ‘谢虓 [Xiè Xiāo]’.
XX (02:25):
Yeah.
OF (02:26):
OK.
XX (02:27):
Some foreigners say this sounds like “*** show”.
I quite like that though.
OF (02:30):
Your life is a **** show.
XX (02:32):
I mean, kinda.
Because my very close friends called me “DiarrhoeaQueen”, because I have very poor stomach.
I **** a lot.
OF (02:38):
Wow, we've gone straight to the most personal part of your life.
Well, I want to talk about Cocosanti who referredyou.
But before we do, let's talk about the objectthat you have prepared…
XX (02:49):
OK.
OF (02:50):
… that in some way represents your life in China.
So what is it?
XX (02:53):
You know, I participate in the Shanghai Queer Film Festival.
It's a local queer film festival founded inShanghai.
Every year we invite some local artists todo some special postcards.
Oops, sorry, I just broke it.
So each one of them are very beautiful.
They choose one queer film, and make a postcard.
OF (03:11):
Well, can you leave them out.
Because I want to have them on display whilewe're talking.
XX (03:15):
OK, sure.
OF (03:16):
Because a lot of what we're gonna talk about is your work.
Why don't we start with that then?
So tell me, what is the Shanghai Queer FilmFestival?
XX (03:21):
OK first of all, I participate in several queer groups in Shanghai.
The Shanghai Queer Film Festival is just oneof them.
When I just came to Shanghai, I didn't knowanybody.
But I wanted to get into a community.
So I met some friends.
At one dinner, they said they're working withthe Queer Film Festival.
I didn't know that.
OF (03:39):
What year was this?
XX (03:40):
2016.
Because I came to Shanghai in 2016.
OF (03:43):
Where were you from originally?
XX (03:45):
重庆 [Chóngqìng].
It’s the hotpot city.
OF (03:47):
重庆 [Chóngqìng]!
XX (03:48):
Yeah.
OF (03:49):
Do you know, I've just been to 重庆 [Chóngqìng] for the first time.
XX (03:51):
Oh really?
OF (03:52):
Yes.
We'll come back to it.
XX (03:54):
OK.
So they said they’re working with the ShanghaiQueer Film Festival.
And I said “Just put me in!
Just put me in!
I want to do anything, I just want to participatein it!”
OF (04:00):
Nice.
XX (04:01):
So that's when I joined in, yeah.
OF (04:04):
OK, so what is your role with the festival?
XX (04:06):
I manage the content bits.
OF (04:07):
OK.
XX (04:08):
I write articles, and take charge of the social media content.
OF (04:12):
Do you also have a hand in choosing which films are selected?
XX (04:16):
No, that’s other groups.
OF (04:17):
OK.
XX (04:18):
Like the short film group, and the feature film group.
OF (04:21):
What films have you shown in the past?
XX (04:24):
Actually, I think everyone can just check our official WeChat group
Film Festival.
Every year is not very easy to do a queerfilm festival in Shanghai.
So every time when we successfully hold anevent, we consider it a huge success.
That's meaningful.
Not the films we’re screening, but the eventitself.
OF (04:41):
That's right.
XX (04:42):
Yeah.
OF (04:43):
Well, I'm going to to ask you just for an example of one of the films that you would
have seen.
Did it have some kind of impact on you?
XX (04:50):
The film is called ‘Leitis in Waiting’.
OF (04:53):
Ladies?
XX (04:54):
Leitis.
Leitis is a word in Tonga - Tonga is a Pacificnation - And ‘Leitis’ means trans women.
So ‘Leitis in Waiting’ is a documentarywhich shows trans women in Tonga, how they're
living.
It's really interesting, there’s a hugetrans community in a Pacific island nation.
OF (05:12):
Yeah.
XX (05:13):
Actually, they have a very big trans culture in Tonga.
But when the British people came…
I'm sorry.
OF (05:18):
Oh dear.
XX (05:19):
Yeah, suddenly the people just don't like them anymore.
OF (05:20):
Yes.
And you make an interesting point about theBritish Empire, because a lot of the laws
which are now seen by the West as anti-LGBTQ+came from that era, right?
XX (05:31):
Never banned before.
OF (05:32):
Exactly.
XX (05:33):
Yeah.
OF (05:34):
So now we in the West look down on these people saying “Hey, get with the programme.”
But actually, they don't realise that it'sbecause of the West that they have these laws.
XX (05:41):
Yeah.
Because in most of the countries, they actuallyhad rights.
The culture accepted them before.
OF (05:46):
Yeah.
Well, let's talk about China then.
Because you’re holding this festival inShanghai.
And as you say, it's not easy.
What do you mean by that?
XX (05:55):
All the events must be free.
OF (05:57):
Mm-hm.
XX (05:58):
We can’t charge money.
OF (05:59):
Yes.
XX (06:00):
And it's very hard to find a place to show the films.
We can't just show them in the cinema.
So we need to raise money.
And we need to find a place to screen.
And we need to organise dozens of people.
We're all volunteers this group.
OF (06:12):
Right.
XX (06:13):
Nobody gets any money.
We're just doing it for love.
OF (06:16):
Yes.
And that reminds me of an episode I did inSeason 01 of this show, which was with a playwright
called Nick Yu.
And he explained the law, that if you areselling a ticket, that's when you have to
get in touch with the content board who helpsto pass that film for public viewing, right?
XX (06:33):
Yeah.
OF (06:34):
So the fact that you're not selling tickets, that means that you have a bit more freedom
in terms of what you can show, correct?
XX (06:39):
I mean, we can just say like, it's someone's birthday.
We're just holding a birthday party.
OF (06:44):
Yes, yes.
Which it is, I mean, it is a private groupultimately, right?
XX (06:48):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
OF (06:49):
And then when you say the venue itself is hard to find, what do you mean by that?
XX (06:52):
Sometimes, when we reached out to a venue - when we need to explain to the owner that
we wanted to show films - they will ask “Whatkind of films are you showing?”
We will explain “Well, there will be gaysand lesbians in the films,” some owners
will say “No, that's too sensitive.”
But luckily, we have some owners who are verywilling to help us.
OF (07:09):
Because it's not about the law.
There's no law against it.
XX (07:12):
It’s very vague.
OF (07:13):
Yes.
XX (07:14):
There’s no specific law that says that you can't show queer firms in China.
But it's very vague, so nobody knows whatto do.
OF (07:22):
This is it.
And that's what this kind of vague law promotes,in terms of content creation, right?
XX (07:28):
Yeah.
But they don't know what we're gonna show.
So it's kind of like we fear them; they fearus also.
So I'm quite used to it.
And I don't think that's much of a problemnow.
OF (07:39):
Yeah.
Well this is it right?
It becomes so normalised…
XX (07:42):
Yeah.
OF (07:43):
… That you sort of work out how to exist within these boundaries.
XX (07:46):
Yeah.
OF (07:47):
Well, we talked at the beginning about Cocosanti and I both ruining the way that
we said your name.
Why don't we listen to that referral fromlast season, here is…
XX (07:56):
I just listened to it last night.
[Start of Audio Clip]C: There is an individual named Xie Xiao.
He is one of the heads for CIMEMQ, which isa queer film initiative in Shanghai.
I think it'd be really fun to have a conversationwith him because he has great stories.
Because he also does work with another programmecalled Queer Talks as well.
(08:17):
[End of Audio Clip]XX: The first time I met her is when she was
on stage.
There was a drag competition in Lucca.
They had two groups, a professional groupand an amateur group.
She was actually in the amateur group.
OF (08:30):
Oh.
XX (08:31):
But her performance was so good.
And I felt “Wow.”
That performance, I remember really clearly.
OF (08:37):
Nice.
XX (08:38):
Back then she didn't know me, but…
Shanghai is very big - it’s a massive city- but also Shanghai is a very small city for
queer people.
You know, we often go to the same venues,we often go to queer events, you always meet
some familiar people.
So we saw each other and I said “Hello”and she said “Hello".
And then had a talk, and we became friends.
That's just how people meet in Shanghai.
OF (08:59):
It's actually nice when I hear you describe it, because what you're describing is a real
community.
I think in many cities around the world - especiallybig cities like Shanghai - we’re losing
this community, because a lot of the stuffis happening online, especially when it comes
to meeting each other.
A lot of stuff now is getting more mainstream.
Here, there is still that close community.
(09:20):
Do you think that is still the case, fiveyears later?
XX (09:23):
Right now I am very satisfied, right now I am very happy, that I have such a community,
that I have so many venues to visit.
And I have so many friends that I can callthem my family.
You know, I love my original family back in重庆 [Chóngqìng] - they love me so much,
I came out to them, and they except me andthey embraced me - and also I have a chosen
family here in Shanghai, who I also love.
I have four mothers.
(09:43):
I always say “It's the same”.
You know why?
Because I have my origin family, who acceptme for who I am, and I know what family looks
like.
I know what real family - who will love you100% - looks like.
And what I feel about my original family in重庆 [Chóngqìng] and what I feel about
my friends in Shanghai, I feel the same feeling.
The feeling is exactly the same.
So your chosen family, you can call your family.
(10:04):
Because that's real.
OF (10:06):
And this phrase ‘chosen family’ is quite common in LGBTQ circles, right?
XX (10:11):
Yes.
OF (10:12):
Would you say most people who came from other provincial cities to Shanghai, would
they have had a different experience to yourfamily in 重庆 [Chóngqìng]?
XX (10:19):
I’m very lucky.
OF (10:21):
Right?
X (10:22):
Yeah but it's very interesting.
Many people, when I’ve told my story, theysay “Did one of your parents live in a foreign
city?”
OF (10:28):
Right.
XX (10:29):
… “Or living in America before?
Because they sound so open-minded.”
But both my parents are born and raised in重庆 [Chóngqìng], they’re high school
mates.
They never went abroad.
They haven’t even been to Hong Kong/Macaubefore.
They’re just open-minded.
My father said “People who cannot acceptdiversity are the one who are unacceptable.”
OF (10:47):
How do you explain that?
XX (10:49):
I know.
I know, yeah.
I'm just too lucky.
My parents always said to me “Well, areyou happy?”
OF (10:54):
Wow.
Are you tempted to have them talk with theparents of other queer people in China?
XX (10:59):
I do want them to.
But they don't like big cities, it's so crowded.
OF (11:03):
Hang on, hang on, stop, stop.
重庆 [Chóngqìng] is the most crowded placeI've been to in China!
XX (11:07):
That's why they don't like big cities.
They always run away from 重庆 [Chóngqìng].
Like “Where are you?”
“I'm in Tibet.”
“Where are you?”
“I’m in 新疆 [Xīnjiāng].”
OF (11:13):
Oh right.
XX (11:14):
They run marathons.
OF (11:15):
Yeah!
XX (11:16):
They biked from 重庆 [Chóngqìng] to Tibet.
OF (11:17):
I should be interviewing your parents, man.
These sound like amazing people.
Now is a good excuse me to talk about 重庆[Chóngqìng] because it's one of those places
that is not on most people's radars as foreigners,right?
We haven't got the excuse to go there.
Of course, we all know about 重庆 [Chóngqìng]hotpot, 重庆 [Chóngqìng] is very famous
for hotpot.
It's famous for maybe some politicians whoused to be in charge.
That’s really the only thing that I knewabout 重庆 [Chóngqìng] before I went there.
(11:38):
In fact, I went there because I was doinga layover between two cities, and I thought
“Oh, I haven't been to 重庆 [Chóngqìng]so I might as well go through 重庆 [Chóngqìng]
and spend a weekend there.”
When I went there, it was like “Wow, I don'tknow enough about China.”
Because it really had its own energy, whichI was surprised at.
It was like Hong Kong with this Mainland Chinaveneer on top.
It was like “Why has it taken me so longto be in 重庆 [Chóngqìng]?”
XX (12:01):
I'm very surprised too, because even in 成都 [Chéngdū] you can select many foreigners.
But in 重庆 [Chóngqìng], no.
OF (12:07):
No!
XX (12:08):
Absolutely none.
Zero.
None.
OF (12:11):
And it’s millions of people, and I was the only foreigner.
XX (12:12):
Yeah.
OF (12:13):
Even in the centre of town.
XX (12:14):
Do you know that - maybe 20 years ago - they 重庆 [Chóngqìng] ‘Little Hong
Kong’?
Because of the landscape.
OF (12:18):
Yes, yes, yes.
I'm glad it wasn't just me then, good.
XX (12:20):
It’s bigger than Hong Kong actually.
OF (12:21):
Yes.
XX (12:22):
You know, 重庆 [Chóngqìng] people also walk very fast.
And we have so many stairs.
OF (12:26):
Oh, exactly.
I couldn't believe it.
I was following a map, I'm going from oneplace to the other…
XX (12:30):
Never trust a map when you're in 重庆 [Chóngqìng].
OF (12:32):
Yes!
XX (12:33):
You just ask people.
People are gonna say "Go up.”
“What do you mean ‘Go Up’?”
“Up!”
OF (12:38):
This is it.
When I was following a map, I realised "No,I can't get there.
Because there's a massive mountain in betweenme and that road.”
XX (12:43):
Yeah, maybe a cliff.
OF (12:44):
Yes.
Which was such a beautiful situation, becauseShanghai is so flat.
XX (12:49):
I know…
OF (12:50):
It’s so boring, right?
Especially when I first came here - this istalking, like, seven years ago - I came from
Hong Kong, right?
That where I last lived.
And then when I came to Shanghai first ofall, every corner was the same.
I couldn't differentiate one road from thenext.
XX (13:03):
Well, have you ever been to Beijing?
That's exactly the same.
Because my aunt used to live in Beijing.
So when I was a little kid, every summer Iwould visit Beijing.
Every road is so straight.
About thirty minutes, never turn.
OF (13:15):
Yes.
XX (13:16):
It was such a miracle for me.
OF (13:17):
I’m the same.
I come from London, and that's a place thatbuilt out very organically, so all the roads
are higgledy-piggledy, they have massive curves.
So every time I'm in a very planned city - whichis, let's say, most cities in the States for
example, they have blocks - I just feel likeit's not human enough.
We're not supposed to be so logical.
XX (13:33):
Yeah.
We're so weird.
Some people ask me “How do you feel whenpeople call you weird sometimes?”
I say "Everybody's weird”.
Because nobody can fit all the stereotypes,all the principals that any society puts on
you.
You're not a robot.
You’re not a programme.
We’re all at least a little bit weird.
OF (13:50):
We all have our weird stuff, exactly.
Let's talk about the way that you talk withyour friends.
Because this is something which I love.
You know, the language that the queer communityuse between each other.
XX (13:59):
Oh my god, we create our own slang sometimes.
Often, like in Western queer communities,we absorb the negativity.
OF (14:07):
You own it, right?
XX (14:09):
We own it.
OF (14:10):
Yeah.
XX (14:11):
And we turn that into something positive.
OF (14:12):
Right.
That's very common, right?
XX (14:14):
It’s very common.
And I don't know if I can say that word here: ****. People call you **** because they hate (14:15):
undefined
you.
But right now we can use that proudly, andsay "Yes, I am a ****. So what?
You cannot hurt me with your so-called negativewords any more.”
OF (14:30):
Right.
XX (14:31):
“Because we own that.”
OF (14:32):
And so what you're saying is, there are equivalent words in Chinese which you now
own.
But you don't want to say on a podcast, forexample.
XX (14:37):
I can say it.
Like, many people will call you “sissy boy: ****”. “We need more masculinity in China, (14:38):
undefined
so we don't want boys in China becoming moresissy.
We need masculinity.”
“Sissy boy” is such a bad word for people.
But we own that.
So easily.
We don't give a ****. I say “If you havea single bit of sissiness in your body - in
(14:59):
your system - just show it.”
And it's so much easier, just being yourselfcompletely.
OF (15:04):
Well, but that's why I'm really impressed with people like you.
Because I think you’re, what, then yearsyounger than me?
How old are you now?
XX (15:09):
29.
OF (15:10):
Yeah, you're 15 years younger than me.
And you've come to this conclusion way youngerthan I did.
XX (15:15):
Because I tried also…
When I was in high school maybe, I tried tobecome ’normal’.
And I failed.
I'm very bad at acting.
OF (15:22):
You have no choice.
XX (15:23):
I have no choice but to accept myself.
And I feel like “Well, you just don't knowwhat kind of potential you have in your body.
Don’t rush to come to a conclusion aboutyourself, or try to define yourself.
Every definition is a limitation.”
Don't try to define ‘queerness’.
That word doesn’t need any definition.
OF (15:40):
Do you say it in Chinese?
XX (15:41):
Yeah, 酷儿 [kù’er].
OF (15:42):
酷儿 [Kù’er].
XX (15:43):
Yeah 酷儿 [kù’er], it sounds cute.
OF (15:44):
Yeah.
XX (15:45):
It just sounds cute.
OF (15:46):
Yeah.
So we've talked about how you feel acceptedin Shanghai.
Like, what is the status of LGBTQ+ peoplein Shanghai - in China - right now.
XX (15:56):
Every city is different.
Every province is different.
OF (15:59):
Right.
XX (16:00):
And even in one city, I know people who wouldn't dare to come out to anybody, they’re
living in Shanghai too.
So different people think in different ways.
Like in some people's minds, gay people andlesbian people are separated.
Also, like there is a Chinese queer peoplegroup, and one for foreigners.
OF (16:16):
Yeah.
XX (16:17):
I just don't know why people are so interested in putting people in different kinds of boxes.
Sometimes people enjoy that, and I just thinkthat's ridiculous.
Yes, there is racism in China.
And yes, there is xenophobia in China.
And yes, within the queer community, also.
OF (16:31):
Right.
XX (16:32):
That doesn't mean that this queer community in China is very depressed.
That depends on what kind of community youwant to join, and what kind of community you
want to be.
OF (16:42):
Mmm.
You know what, you're making me think aboutsomething which if you're in the community,
you've heard this.
But maybe there are people listening who havenever heard this.
Foreigners versus Chinese people within thequeer community, there are a few phrases that
I've heard.
XX (16:55):
OK.
OF (16:56):
It’s about ‘rice’.
XX (16:57):
‘Rice queen’?
OF (16:58):
Yes.
XX (16:59):
It means basically a foreigner who is fond of East Asian people.
OF (17:02):
Yep.
What's the equivalent for the other way around?
XX (17:05):
I don't know.
What… potato?
OF (17:07):
Potato.
XX (17:08):
Actually, this is the first time I’ve heard that.
OF (17:09):
You’ve never heard of ‘potato queen’?
XX (17:10):
No.
OF (17:11):
That’s what you would call an East Asian who is looking for a white guy.
XX (17:15):
Oh wow.
OF (17:16):
A ‘potato queen’.
XX (17:17):
We call that differently in China
means ‘western food.’
OF (17:20):
Ah yeah, cos it's about food, it is about food.
OK, so what do you call it when there aretwo East Asians who are attracted to each
other?
Do you have a word for that, because we doin English?
XX (17:29):
Oh really?
Two East Asian like….
No, we don't have that.
OF (17:34):
Sticky rice.
XX (17:35):
Wow.
OF (17:36):
It’s terrible.
This is it.
This is the kind of racist language that existswithin the queer community.
XX (17:41):
Yes.
OF (17:42):
If you can use your logic here.
What do you think it…
XX (17:45):
Mashed potato?
OF (17:46):
You got it!
We’re laughing about it, it’s wrong, right?
XX (17:51):
It's wrong.
And we can talk about it.
Because there is an issue, that’s why weneed to talk about it.
But we need to understand why this word exists,why it's bad, and what can we do to improve
it?
Should we just cancel it?
Or use it again, but in a different way?
OF (18:04):
Yeah.
XX (18:05):
They’re just words.
OF (18:06):
Yeah.
XX (18:07):
It's how we define them, how we use them.
OF (18:08):
Yeah.
You know, what I know from people's profileson dating apps, they would specifically say
things like ‘No Asians,’ you know?
XX (18:14):
Oh there are so many examples, I know.
OF (18:17):
Right?
It's really prevalent.
That we can be in a community which is oppressedin some ways, and yet we can still - within
our community - oppress others.
XX (18:26):
Yes, I find that very interesting.
You know, every dating app in China, therewill also be people who say ‘No foreigners’
or ‘No Asians’.
OF (18:33):
You see?
XX (18:34):
And I feel like “Hello?"
We desperately wanted to let the whole worldtreat us as human beings, but we treat ourselves
like meat and vegetables at the market.
That's ridiculous.
OF (18:45):
Yeah.
There is some kind of deep-rooted self-loathing,self-hatred.
XX (18:51):
Yes.
They’re like traitors of being queer.
Is that really who you are?
If you are comfortable, I praise you.
But if you're not, that means you're not happy.
OF (19:02):
Yeah.
XX (19:03):
Yeah.
OF (19:04):
The way I actually accept the word ‘queer' is I think about it in terms of, right, procreation.
XX (19:08):
Procreation?
OF (19:09):
‘Procreation’ means having a baby.
XX (19:11):
OK.
OF (19:12):
And that's ‘normal’, right?
XX (19:13):
OF.
OF (19:14):
Anything which doesn't lead to procreation - anything which is not that - you could call
‘queer.’
So what I mean by that is, if there is a heteronormativecouple, and they're not doing anything which
is going to lead to a baby being born, that'squeer!
XX (19:28):
Yeah.
OF (19:29):
What you find out when you define it that way is that everybody is queer.
Everybody has done things in the privacy oftheir bedroom…
XX (19:36):
Sure.
OF (19:37):
… Which doesn't lead to creating babies.
Everyone.
XX (19:39):
Yeah, my expression is a little bit different, but I also believe everybody is queer.
I mean, if you ever have any sexual fantasy,that means you're queer.
If you don't have any sexual fantasy, thatmeans you're asexual, that’s also queer.
OF (19:49):
There you go.
XX (19:50):
So.
OF (19:51):
End of story, we're all defined under that one umbrella.
XX (19:52):
Yeah.
OF (19:53):
I guess the issue right now in China is representation.
Where you and I can have this conversationon this English-speaking podcast.
If we were doing a TV show in China, we couldn'ttalk this openly, right?
XX (20:02):
I don’t know.
Maybe not?
Maybe?
I'm not sure.
You know, like, the law is very vague.
We don't know.
OF (20:09):
Well, you certainly don't see it right now.
XX (20:10):
No.
OF (20:11):
And you certainly see the opposite.
You certainly see now, the messaging comingout about “it's a shrinking population”,
right?
So there's a demographical issue, that youhave to make more children in China.
But then how, in that case, do you think youcan create more people who are like your parents,
who are understanding and accepting?
XX (20:26):
First of all, we just talk.
We just share our minds, we share our thoughts.
Every time when we do a talk, I can see thatsomething is happening.
Even if it's a very tiny little bit, everytalk matters.
And also with CINEMQ, people often say “Whydo you choose to use screening films as a
tool to extend your message” or something.
(20:47):
Matthew thinks - he’s one of the co-foundersof CINEMQ - and also everybody else thinks
the same way, because movies are fun.
People like watching movies.
And what we're showing are queer movies, whichare more interesting.
That's it.
It's very simple.
Just have fun.
OF (21:02):
Yeah.
XX (21:03):
Girls just wanna have fun.
OF (21:04):
You mention Matthew.
He is someone who has been behind CINEMQ…
XX (21:06):
She is like my third or fourth mother.
OF (21:09):
Matthew Baren?
XX (21:10):
Yes.
OF (21:11):
So let's talk about that.
Tell me about your four mothers.
XX (21:13):
My first mother is my biological mother in 重庆 [Chóngqìng].
I love her so much.
We're like sisters, so each time we just hangout in the street, we go shopping, we drink
bubble tea, and we talk about men.
That's my first mom.
My second mom is my college friend.
She’s so funny.
She's the one who actually told me “Youknow, being a slut is not a bad thing.
(21:34):
It’s how you own your body.
But make sure it's safe.”
OF (21:37):
Yeah, well this is a whole feminist aspect we haven't even talked about.
But keep going.
XX (21:42):
Yeah.
The third or fourth mother is Matthew Barenand Will Dai.
OF (21:45):
Ah, they’re partners, right?
XX (21:47):
Yeah.
I'm gonna tell you the story about how I metthem.
Moonlight won the Oscar.
OF (21:51):
Ah yes.
XX (21:52):
And I got very angry because there are so many Chinese reviews which were so bad.
People said “I just don't like black people.”
OF (22:00):
Oh.
XX (22:01):
People said “This film only won the Oscar because of political correctness.”
Or “The PC issue has gone too far in Westerncountries.”
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
There were so many of them.
Of course, there were so many people who verymuch liked this film, including me, and including
many other people.
Moonlight was kinda like a bomb which explodedall the issues out onto the surface.
And so I typed in a WeChat group saying "Iwant to write an article to discuss that.”
(22:24):
And so Matthew replied to me in that group,and said "You need to write that article.”
So I wrote it, and I sent it to them, theygot it published.
And we never met before.
And there was one time one night, I was sittingoutside of a bar.
And I just saw Matthew and Will, passing by.
And I just approached, saying “Hello.
You don't know me, but I know you."
(22:45):
And that's the first time I met them.
OF (22:46):
And that's how you got into CINEMQ.
XX (22:48):
That night changed everything.
OF (22:50):
And that's why we're here today.
Xie Xiao, thank you very much.
Let's move on to Part 2.
XX (22:56):
OK.
[Part 2]OF: Alright, let’s jump straight in.
Question 1 from Shanghai Daily (23:01):
What is your favourite China-related fact?
XX (23:06):
The thing that most impressed me is how China changes so fast.
Every year is different.
I don't even recognise where I grew up.
The building is gone.
Everything is gone.
The road is gone.
The mountains are gone!
OF (23:19):
Yes.
XX (23:20):
Every time when I go back to 重庆 [Chóngqìng], I know that she's always beautiful, and she's
always fierce.
But is that a city I know?
I just hope that the characteristics don'tchange.
OF (23:30):
Yeah.
What is one physical representation of 重庆[Chóngqìng]?
Is there like something which makes you think"Ah, I'm back in 重庆 [Chóngqìng]” when
you see it?
XX (23:38):
Hotpot.
When I smell that, “***, I’m home.”
OF (23:42):
Mmm.
Yeah, this is the thing, because I was in重庆 [Chóngqìng] but I was there by myself.
And it's actually quite hard to eat hotpotby yourself.
XX (23:48):
I know.
Yes, yes.
It's not just for one person.
OF (23:51):
Yeah, I still haven't eaten hotpot in 重庆 [Chóngqìng].
XX (23:53):
Aw.
OF (23:54):
So I have to go back with a group.
XX (23:55):
You have to go back with a group, and with a group where every one of them can eat
spicy food.
OF (23:59):
Yeah.
Next question, which comes from Rosetta Stone: Do you have a favourite word or phrase in (24:00):
undefined
Chinese?
XX (24:05):
I love Chinese.
You just have to learn the logic, you cancreate your own words, you know.
But I do have one word that I very much like.
It's 含蓄 [hánxù], I don't even know howto translate it.
OF (24:17):
含蓄 [Hánxù].
XX (24:18):
It’s kinda like ‘ambiguous’, ‘vague’, ‘soft', something like that.
Sometimes you can use it like “The way ofyour speaking is very 含蓄 [hánxù].”
And that means "I can understand you, butit's not very clear.”
You know, like an iceberg.
You only speak the level one, but the remainingnine levels, I have to understand, I have
to interpret it.
OF (24:38):
I hear exactly what you mean.
It's actually a really interesting representationof the language.
XX (24:42):
Yeah.
OF (24:43):
Because I think so much Chinese has got this 含蓄 [hánxù], right?
XX (24:45):
Yeah, yeah.
It's just like “Guess what I'm talking about?”
OF (24:48):
Yeah.
OK next question which comes from naked Retreats: What’s your favourite destination within (24:49):
undefined
China?
XX (24:55):
So far, Shanghai.
OF (24:56):
Shanghai.
XX (24:57):
I'm very glad I chose to come to Shanghai five years ago.
Somehow I just chose Shanghai because maybeBeijing’s too ‘north’.
Shanghai is more familiar.
And it's also like, all the people who liveby the Yangtze River will feel exactly the
same feeling.
Like, we feel that river means so much.
OF (25:12):
Because that's the river that flows through 重庆 [Chóngqìng], right?
XX (25:15):
Flows through 重庆 [Chóngqìng], 武汉 [Wǔhàn], 南京 [Nánjīng] and Shanghai.
So every time when I visit a city that hasthe Yangtze River running through it, I feel
like “Oh, I love this city” at first sight.
Just because the same water feeds us.
OF (25:28):
That's so nice that you can look at the river here in Shanghai, and say “That's
been through my hometown.”
XX (25:32):
Yeah, well we also have a very vicious version.
Like Shanghainese people are always drinkingour ****. Because 重庆 [Chóngqìng] very,
like, upper…
OF (25:41):
You’re upstream.
XX (25:42):
Yeah, upstream.
Like, Shanghai is the end of it.
So…
I’m sorry.
OF (25:46):
Oh that’s so funny.
XX (25:47):
But I live here now.
I drink my own ****.OF: That's a whole different podcast.
So sorry.
OF (25:53):
Oh brilliant.
If you left China, what would you miss themost, and what would you miss the least?
XX (25:58):
Oh…
OF (25:59):
Because you've never lived overseas, right?
XX (26:00):
Never.
OF (26:01):
No.
XX (26:02):
I can only imagine.
OF (26:03):
Go on then.
XX (26:04):
I would definitely miss hotpot the most.
OF (26:05):
I knew you'd say that, you’re so predictable.
XX (26:08):
That’s because all other people would say exactly the same.
OF (26:11):
You’re a conformist person?
XX (26:13):
I mean, my veins run with hotpot.
It's just my soul.
OF (26:19):
You can't help it.
What would you miss the least, if you left?
XX (26:22):
I don't know.
I don't know!
Oh my god, I feel like I'm such a terriblestudent.
I'm so sorry, teacher.
OF (26:29):
This is maybe what you were talking before about acceptance.
You have to accept yourself.
Living in China is about accepting the goodand bad, right?
XX (26:37):
Yeah.
OF (26:38):
There you go, I've made it into a clever answer.
Next question, is there anything that stillsurprises you about life in China?
XX (26:47):
外卖 [Wàimài].
OF (26:48):
Oh 外卖 [wàimài], as in, ordering food online?
XX (26:50):
Yeah.
I just can't believe I can just order foodat 3am.
It still surprises me, even though I'm a Chineseperson.
OF (26:57):
And can I guess what kind of food you order on 外卖 [Wàimài]?
XX (27:00):
You can’t just order a formal hotpot.
But you can order 冒菜 [màocài] whichis kinda like the hotpot for just one person.
That's what I order the most.
OF (27:08):
Of course.
XX (27:09):
Of course.
OF (27:10):
Can you get something which you would say is authentically 重庆 [Chóngqìng]
hotpot in Shanghai?
XX (27:13):
No.
OF (27:14):
No, right?
XX (27:15):
I’m sorry Shanghai, no.
But I forgive Shanghai for that.
Because nobody can just do it like 重庆[Chóngqìng] people do.
OF (27:19):
There you go.
This is all one big advert for 重庆 [Chóngqìng]after all.
Next question, which comes from SmartShanghai: Where is your favourite place to go out, to (27:24):
undefined
eat or drink or just hang out?
XX (27:29):
Elevator.
It’s near 徐家汇 [Xújiāhuì] it’s南丹东 [Nándān dōng] Road.
It's an underground bar.
They do techno music, and they hold queerparties.
Parties where you can always embrace yourgender expression.
If you dress up in drag, you can get in forfree.
OF (27:44):
Aha.
And have you been in drag yourself?
XX (27:46):
Not yet, but…
OF (27:48):
Not yet?
XX (27:49):
I'm so sorry, not yet.
But many people want to do it for me.
Because I never know how to do makeup.
OF (27:53):
But they can do it for you.
XX (27:54):
They can do it for me.
OF (27:55):
Between this recording and when it gets released, there’s probably a few months.
XX (27:59):
OK.
OF (28:00):
So my challenge to you is, by the time this episode is released, you have to have
had one evening out in drag.
Promise?
XX (28:07):
OK.
OF (28:09):
Alright, next question.
What is the best or worst purchase you'vemade in China?
XX (28:14):
Well, I love Apple products.
So the recent Apple product I bought is thewatch I'm wearing.
OF (28:18):
Oh look.
XX (28:19):
So yes.
OF (28:20):
Nice.
The one company that does not need to haveadvertising on this podcast.
XX (28:23):
Yeah, I'm sorry but I'm such an Apple whore.
OF (28:27):
Next question.
What is your favourite WeChat sticker?
OK, send it to me now.
XX (28:32):
There's a lady doing a very funny gesture.
Kind of like, use her hands as a curtain toreveal herself.
Like “Huh” “Huh" “Hello.”
I love people being confident, even thoughpeople don't think they have the guts to be
confident.
OF (28:48):
Yeah!
XX (28:49):
Yeah.
OF (28:50):
Nice.
What is your go-to song to sing at KTV?
XX (28:52):
Well, I love KTV, so…
OF (28:54):
Thank you.
Somebody who is young, who loves KTV…
I appreciate that.
XX (28:59):
I recently love a very old song in China, it’s called '爱不爱我 [Ài bù ài wǒ
- Love me or not]’ It’s by a band called零点乐队 [Língdiǎn Yuèduì].
I just like to sing this song because youcan just roar.
“你到底爱不爱我？[Nǐ dàodǐ àibù ài wǒ?]”
OF (29:12):
Yeah.
And I like how it's like “Just tell me,yes or no”, right?
It's that kind of feeling.
XX (29:17):
Like “Do you love me or not?”
OF (29:19):
OK, you and I have to go out.
And finally from JustPod, which is the studiowe are in today: What or who is your biggest
source of inspiration in China?
XX (29:31):
First of all
Also, all the queer people.
There are so many of us.
We don't know each other but it’s like rootsunderground.
We connect to each other somehow, throughexperience, through culture, through everything.
OF (29:46):
Yeah.
XX (29:47):
You can say, like “I feel you.”
OF (29:48):
Yeah.
There you go, everyone.
Feel the love, guys.
Xie Xiao, thank you so much.
XX (29:52):
Thank you, thank you.
OF (29:53):
And before you leave, who is the person who you would recommend that I interview in
the next season of Mosaic of China?
XX (30:00):
Lilian Shen, her Chinese name is 沈乐琦 [Shěn Lèqí].
She grew up in multiple countries (30:04):
in Singapore, Shanghai, UK and US.
And she has done so many feminist events andorganisations in Shanghai.
OF (30:13):
Mmm.
This is long overdue, to talk to somebodywho can give the feminist story in China.
So I can't wait to talk with Lilian.
XX (30:21):
Yeah, I can say that that issue is very complicated, and she's the right person to
talk with.
OF (30:26):
Great.
And if there was one question you would askLilian, what question would you ask her?
XX (30:31):
Where are you?
I haven't met you for ages.
OF (30:34):
Thank you again.
XX (30:36):
Thank you, Oscar.
[Outro]OF: So I was looking down my list of all the
guests we’ve had on Mosaic of China so far,and I think Xie Xiao is the 14th LGBTQ+ person
we’ve had on the show.
And that’s just to my knowledge, there’sprobably more than that.
(30:56):
Sometimes it’s good to talk about it, sometimesit’s fine to let it be 含蓄 [hánxù].
Just like we don’t need to discuss eachguest’s favourite breakfast, we also don’t
need to discuss their sexual preferences orgender expression.
It’s all just part of the Mosaic.
As always, there’s more content in the PREMIUMversion of the podcast.
(31:17):
Head to mosaicofchina.com for details on howto subscribe, and here are some clips from
today’s show: [Clip 1] (31:22):
undefined
XX (31:24):
I appreciate you, I understand you, I love you.
But I don't know how to define the terms youjust said.
[Clip 2]XX: My cousin is the only grandchild on her
side.
And we both decided we won't have any children.
OF (31:34):
Oh right!
[Clip 3]XX: They think “But in my neighbourhood,
homosexuality is such a taboo.”
They are afraid to come out to you.”
[Clip 4]OF: They keep the rules vague on purpose,
so that we never quite know where the lineis.
[Clip 5]XX: I know there are so many queer people
in China who have a very hard life.
I know their stories, I heard them.
[Clip 6]OF: “Are you a comrade?”
The answer is..?
XX (31:52):
Yes.
Both.
Yes.
OF (31:55):
Both, exactly.
[Clip 7]XX: It doesn't matter if your family except
you or not.
But it does matter if you accept you.
[Clip 8]XX: When I visited Japan, I felt like sometimes
they were like more Chinese than the Chinese.
Yep.
[Clip 9]OF: Do you feel that pressure externally still?
XX (32:08):
Never.
[Clip 10]XX: So many people, they don't understand
it at all!
OF (32:12):
Right.
XX (32:13):
I wanted to know why.
[Clip 11]XX: A, B, C, D, they all sound right, but
they all sound wrong.
Can I choose all of them?
[End of Audio Clips]
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artworkby Denny Newell.
As always there are lots of images alongsidetoday’s show on the website or on social
media, including Xie Xiao’s favourite WeChatsticker, photos of his families - both biological
(32:36):
and chosen - and many more.
What you won’t find there is any photosof him in drag, because he’s still leaving
that to the professionals.
Speaking of which, you’re about to heara quick catch-up with the person who referred
Xie Xiao to the Mosaic, Cocosanti from Season02 Episode 05.
And there’s also a catch-up with the workplacediversity supporter working for SAP, Sebastien
(33:00):
Denes from Season 01 Episode 11.
Please enjoy them, please listen to theiroriginal episodes if you haven’t already
done so, and we’ll be back again with anothernew guest next week.
[Catch-Up Interview 1]OF: Coco!
C (33:18):
Hi!
OF (33:20):
Great to see you.
说曹操 [Shuō Cáocāo], and here you are.
Good to see you, man.
C (33:27):
Good to see you too.
How was your..?
I don't know what to call it.
OF (33:30):
Forced holiday?
C (33:31):
Yeah.
OF (33:32):
I've put on a few pounds.
But I don't mind being in front of you, becauseyou are very body positive.
C (33:37):
I am.
OF (33:38):
So I'm letting it all hang out.
C (33:39):
You should let it all hang out.
It's funny, the previous lockdown I gainedso much weight because I was just like “Nom
nom nom nom.”
But this lockdown, I was just so aware ofmyself and I just knew how to control myself.
OF (33:50):
Oh, OK.
You’ve obviously grown as a person.
I think I'm regressing, myself.
C (33:53):
No, it's fine.
Everyone needs to experience it at least once.
If you didn't do it the last lockdown, youhad to have done it this lockdown.
OF (34:00):
I suppose so.
How is Kevin doing?C: Oh, Kevin is wonderful.
He played an eggplant in my previous show.
Very good.
C (34:10):
Yeah.
OF (34:11):
I’m not going to mention what Kevin is.
If you haven't heard Cocosanti’s originalepisode, it's up to you to go back and listen
to it.
All will be revealed.
C (34:19):
Yeah, it is something special.
OF (34:20):
So where are you heading towards?
C (34:23):
Gosh, I am pushing myself a lot to keep creating as much as possible.
So my friend and I are starting a podcast.
OF (34:31):
Yes! C
We're starting a Disney podcast, ‘Ur BearNecessities', where we just kind of get drunk
and talk about Disney movies.
It sounds really basic because it probablyis.
But it's like, first we're gonna start withour Disney Princess films, and then we're
gonna go into talking animals, and then Pixar,and then…
(34:53):
You've planned it all out.
C (34:54):
Oh everything is planned out.
You know, I love planning.
After the last quarantine I met with a therapistand a counsellor and I was diagnosed with
ADHD, which was a mind-blowing experiencefor me.
Because I have ADHD-I - which is ‘ADHD-Internal’- which means that everything that I focus
on, I hyper-focus on.
So something like a podcast or making a videotakes a lot of work because I am hyper-focusing
(35:20):
on the smallest detail.
And that's what concerns me about online content.
For me, my perfectionism starts taking over.
Which is why I prefer live performances, becausethose little mistakes become not only part
of the performance, but they can become…
OF (35:36):
The best part.
C (35:37):
Yeah.
It really is, it just…
I don't have to beat myself up over makingthose small imperfections, like “Oh my god,
the sound here doesn't sound right.
This clip needs to match up perfectly.
Is he turning this way?
Is he turning left?”
It's crazy.
I don't know how Kim Kardashian does it.
OF (35:53):
So how are you going to stop yourself from doing that in your podcast?
C (35:57):
Oh gosh.
Erm.
I don't know.
I haven't taken any medication to controlit, so…
OF (36:05):
So what tools do you have then?
C (36:07):
Internal mental work.
OF (36:08):
Yeah.
C (36:09):
Which is just repeating to myself “It's good enough.”
OF (36:12):
Yes.
C (36:13):
So like, if I'm organising magazines on my table, I won't have to alphabetise them.
And…
it's an experience.
OF (36:19):
Yes.
You’re giving me this cheeky I-can’t-believe-I’m-saying-this-out-loudlaugh.
I'm laughing because it's so familiar to me.
Whenever I see anything about ADHD, I do wonderif I have an undiagnosed version of it.
C (36:34):
Yeah, I highly recommend to get tested for ADHD.
Because when I found out I was diagnosed withADHD, I kind of just broke down and understood
all of the factors in my life that could havebeen better.
I don't care how old you are, definitely getchecked out.
I have a friend who was diagnosed at 41.
Check it out, just… you never know.
(36:54):
You can kind of get more control over yourown life.
And that really does help.
OF (36:57):
Yeah, interesting.
I appreciate you opening up about that.
I think I read a couple of weeks ago, youposted something about that.
So I had known that you had ‘come out’with your ADHD diagnosis, something which
I had intended to speak to you about.
I'm glad that you volunteered it.
I think we have to wrap this up.
But before we do, of course I'm going to releasethis catch-up episode at the end of the episode
with the person who you referred for Season03, which is Xie Xiao.
C (37:21):
Yeah.
OF (37:22):
So have you and Xie Xiao managed to catch up of late?
C (37:25):
No, we haven't.
It’s just, I'm very busy.
I'm always…
being me, I guess.
That's a big one.
Usually CINEMQ occurs when I'm working.
So it's hard for me to go to the movie events.
But I highly recommend everyone goes to seequeer cinema, in any way shape or form.
It's definitely worth it.
OF (37:44):
Coco, thank you so much for coming in.
Great to see you.
C (37:47):
So good to see you.
OF (37:48):
And thank you for being part of this project.
It was a pleasure to speak to you last season,and it's great to see you again today.
C (37:55):
You too!
[Catch-Up Interview 2]SD: Can you hear me?
OF (37:58):
I can indeed.
Hello, Sebastien.
We are doing this call over Zoom.
But actually, we are both in Shanghai rightnow, correct?
SD (38:07):
Exactly.
I mean, we are on the two sides of the city,right?
OF (38:11):
Yes, you are on the 浦东 [Pǔdōng] side, I'm on the 浦西 [Pǔxī] side.
Just to introduce you to people who did nothear your original episode, you are a French
person, with an Italian wife, working fora German company, here in China, correct?
SD (38:26):
That's complicated, but correct.
OF (38:28):
Last time we talked, you had just moved into a new role in engineering.
Now are you still in that role, or have youmoved on again?
SD (38:37):
Yeah.
No I'm still there.
And working in a more international dimension.
My team in the past was essentially locatedin China.
This new team that I have, we have team membersin China, but also in India, in Japan, in
Southeast Asia, and in Australia/New Zealand.
So from a diversity perspective, that makesthe job very interesting.
OF (38:59):
Yes.
And this is actually touching upon the contentthat we had in your original episode, which
was about workplace diversity, and how youcan engineer a culture in a way that's more
accepting and more open.
Did you find yourself making any mistakesat the beginning, when you have been a little
bit more used to just managing Chinese people,and just managing salespeople?
(39:20):
Like, how was it when you transitioned?
SD (39:22):
Oh, not only at the beginning.
Still!
You know?
No, for sure, for sure.
You take a lot of things for granted.
The Sales and Services organisation is workingalmost like a military organisation, right?
So all these mechanics, this focus on financials,on timelines, and so on.
(39:42):
So for me, one of the major challenges wasto understand the different cultures, different
countries, different organisation and timelines,right?
And eventually, how I could - on one side- benefit from what they already had in place,
and how I could - on the other side - bringmy experience and management to this organisation,
(40:05):
so that we can progress and make it betterat the end of the day.
Which was essentially the reason why I washired in the first place, right?
OF (40:12):
Yes.
It does make me think about our original discussion,where we are talking about neurodiversity
- the way that you had successfully integratedemployees on the autism spectrum - and then
of course, all other kinds of diversity, likeage diversity, gender, LGBT, etc etc.
What I'm leading towards is, what do you thinkis happening when it comes to the conversation
(40:35):
around diversity, particularly in China?
Do you think it's staying the same?
Is it backsliding?
Do you still keep tabs of what the state ofthings are these days?
SD (40:44):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
And I think we haven't backslid.
What, on the other side, we do see is thatthe society is not getting much better.
OF (40:54):
Ah right.
SD (40:55):
Because China had a moment where it was catching up, comparatively to other countries.
And now other countries are moving faster.
And actually China, in the gender diversityranking, while still making progress, is falling
behind in that ranking.
Because many other countries have taken biggersteps, faster steps.
(41:17):
So it's a never-ending journey, at the endof the day.
OF (41:22):
I see.
Well, why don't we end our discussion by talkingabout the future, what are your plans?
SD (41:25):
What I can foresee is we're not leaving China.
Not yet, we’ll see what happens.
OF (41:31):
Yes.
SD (41:32):
We definitely are looking forward to an improvement of the situation here that I'm
sure will come soon, and look with very positiveeyes in the future.
OF (41:41):
Good.
I look forward to hopefully meeting you againin person.
Thank you so much, I'm always grateful tothe people from Season 01 like yourself who
said “Yes” to this project before theyeven knew what the hell it was.
Now we're already in Season 03, and it's greatto have this chance to catch up with you.
And I'm hoping that we will continue to stayin touch into the future.
SD (42:01):
Thank you very much Oscar, you too.
Bye bye.
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