April 12, 2021 • 36 mins
Some say that young people are impatient, and are only on the look-out for short-term gratification. Not so with Douglon Tse, who spent his formative years pursuing a long-term vision for his life. This pursuit has led him and his wife to a unique island in China, which he describes very vividly in today's episode. At 30 years old, Douglon is also one of the youngest guests in Season 2 of the podcast. So if you're also young and are thinking about how to make your mark in China, you should find a large seafood platter of inspiration in Douglon's story. The episode also includes a catch-up interview with Octo Cheung from Season 01 Episode 30. (https://mosaicofchina.com/season-01-episode-30-octo-cheung). Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 01:03 - Part 1 19:36 - Part 2 27:28 - Outro 30:29 - Catch-Up Interview Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at https://mosaicofchina.com/season-02-episode-15-douglon-tse.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
[Trailer]DT: I was like “Hold
on, everything has changed somuch in China from 2011 to 2017.
And how does this island, so closeto Shanghai, stay almost the same?”
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
(00:22):
As someone who, in general, has a 'go with theflow and see where life takes me' attitude,
I'm always intrigued by seriouspeople with serious plans.
Today's guest has a long-term vision for hislife, and it's a path that has led him to a
unique place, which he describes very vividlyin today's episode. At 30 years old, Douglon
(00:42):
is also one of the youngest guests in Season02, so if you're also young and thinking about
how to go about making your mark in China, youin particular should find this one of interest.
And finally, Douglon speaks excellentChinese, but with a local pronunciation.
So listen out for that, if you're anywhereoutside of the area around 浙江 [Zhèjiāng] Province.
(01:02):
[Part 1]OF:
Thank you for coming, Douglon. I'm here withDouglon Tse. Douglon, you are a friend of Octo’s,
that’s who introduced you. So let me playyou the introduction that Octo said about
you from the last series.[Start of Audio Clip]
Octo CHEUNG (01:20):
I'm recommending a very good guy called Douglon. And he's from a very
interesting family. He's doing a very coolbusiness, it’s a small island next to Shanghai.
[End of Audio Clip]DT: Yeah.
OF (01:34):
That was Octo. So first of all, tell me how do you know Octo?
DT (01:37):
She designed my suit and my wife's dress at our wedding,
through the kind introduction from my father.OF: Well, there you go. And she said that you
come from an interesting family. I'm sure we’lldiscuss that as part of our discussion today.
Yeah. OF
the first thing I would ask anyone inthat chair is, what object did you bring
that in some way represents your life in China?DT: I brought a very humble rock from 嵊泗 [Shèngsì]
(02:03):
island. This rock is something thatwe try to incorporate in our design
for our shops on 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] island. And wetry to use as much local stuff as possible.
And so local fishermen would use these rocksto weigh down the nets when they go fishing.
OF (02:17):
Right. DT
And I usually give this as a gift to all myfriends who visit me on 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] island.
Oh, as a gift. So what do they use it for? DT
holder. So this rock is for you.OF: Excellent. Oh, thank you so
much. Wait, so this rock here has
(02:38):
been at the bottom of the ocean, has it?DT: Yes. What they do is they would go out
to sea and, depending on the seasons, they wouldfish for different things, from fishes to crabs,
to shrimps. The entire island, for the past coupleof hundred years, is based off a fishing economy.
Until recently, after they made transportationmore convenient, tourism started to boom.
(02:59):
OK. Well, first of all then, describe to me where is this island?
DT (03:06):
嵊泗 [Shèngsì] island is around 60-70 kilometres south of Shanghai.
And right now, it's an hour and a half away,a ferry ride to the port and a 15 minute to an
hour and a half boat ride, depending on the slowboat or fast boat. The boom in tourism really
started around the 1990s after they built thatbridge to that huge port called 洋山 [Yángshān].
OF (03:28):
Right, that place which is still within Shanghai, but it is in the middle of the sea,
right?DT: Exactly.
So this port, how far is it from the mainland of Shanghai?
DT (03:40):
Something like 30 kilometres away. If you drive under the speed limit, it takes around 30
minutes to cross that bridge.OF: That’s one big bridge.
Yeah. The 东海 [Dōnghǎi] bridge. It's not very famous. The one that goes across 杭州 [Hángzhōu]
is more famous to most people.OF: Yes
People drive across that bridge all the time. OF
(04:02):
because it just gets to a port,it’s mainly for the port traffic.
Yeah. OF
accent. I’m assuming that you're American.DT: Yeah, I'm from Boston. After going to
college in Hong Kong University,I worked in Shanghai for 10 years,
and was mostly in the restaurant business.
I was trying to find a place to build my career,and trying to find a place in China that was
(04:26):
slow enough, and not developing like crazy Chinaspeed, where I could compete. And so I did some
exploration around Shanghai, basically drawing athree hour radius, and discovered 嵊泗 [Shèngsì].
OF (04:38):
OK, so when you first went there, what year was that?
DT (04:42):
2011. Well, that was just out of tourism purposes, because I was really bored,
and I didn't have many friends.OF: Right. And why did you
choose 嵊泗 [Shèngsì], just randomly?DT: It was a SmartShanghai article.
OF (04:54):
Oh right. DT
piece about the graffiti walls in one of thevillages. And I went there in the dead of winter;
didn’t do much, because most of the things wereclosed; saw the graffiti walls; and went back
to Shanghai the next day.OF: Oh that was it.
DT (05:07):
Yeah it was a very short trip. OF
much on the island anyway, at that point.DT: No, there wasn’t. And it was really dirty
at that time. Literally just people settingup shop on the street and selling things.
Who knows if it was actually clean or safe.OF: Interesting. And so it was this neglected
piece of China, which wasn't onthe radar for anyone at that point.
(05:29):
Yeah. And in many ways, it still isn't on the radar for many people.
OF (05:32):
Yeah. DT
I think of 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] island, I think I'vefound a place where nothing has been touched,
which is really rare. Big companies have nottouched it. I'm the only expat who lives there.
So English teachers have not touched it yet.OF: Oh wow wait a minute, you're the only
non-Chinese person?DT: Yes.
OK. And how many people live on the island altogether?
DT (05:51):
40,000 on the main island. OF
Yeah, so… I think altogether, there are five main islands, for the 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] archipelago,
and there's a whole bunch of smaller islands thatI can’t even name. They’re not even liveable.
They have docks on these small islands,and it's great for nature photography,
hiking, seeing the sunset, sunrise, thatkind of thing. But no one lives there.
OF (06:13):
Well, then talk me through what happened. So you went there
to see the graffiti, and then now you live onthe island. So what happened in the interim?
DT (06:22):
So I thought I was going through my farewell party for Shanghai, do a whole China tour with
my wife, and then to decide what would be thenext phase of our work lives and also our lives
together. So I proposed to her like “Oh, I knowthese really cool islands south of Shanghai,
it'd be cool just to check it out andmake it part of our road trip.” So 2017,
(06:44):
we take the ferry there, everything almostlooks like the same. And that was the problem.
I was like “Hold on, everything has changed somuch in China from 2011 to 2017. And how does
this island, so close to Shanghai, stay almost thesame?” And that was where I felt I could develop
my career. So that was a short road trip.OF: Oh, so you didn’t even carry on.
(07:07):
It was just screaming opportunity. So we just seized it. We really wanted to do
domestic tourism. What we were banking on was,domestic tourism will keep going up regardless
of China's economy. Because if it goes up,there’s around another 7-8 hundred million
middle class people that will become realised,and they're going to be travelling all around.
And if it is a bad economy, then it’s just lessinternational tourism. A lot more wealthier
(07:33):
Chinese will have to find other options. And嵊泗 [Shèngsì] island being so close to Shanghai,
we just felt that it will always do well.OF: So could it have been any Island? Or
was it something about this specific island?DT: Well, we chose 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] island versus
other islands, because it wasn't too influencedby tourism. So we knew that we needed to have
(07:53):
the local patronage in order to survive the downseason. It's really hard to get quality staff that
just leave after six months. And just the momentumof the business. Because we're in the restaurant
business, the constant 点评 [Diǎnpíng] reviews.If we don't get constant 点评 [Diǎnpíng] reviews,
then we just start heading down south.OF: And just to explain,
what is a 点评 [Diǎnpíng] review?DT: On an international level,
(08:16):
it’s kinda like TripAdvisor. Soit's very crucial to our business
and they've basically taken over.OF: It still matters on an island
where you have much more of a smaller catchment?DT: Oh it’s even more so. Yeah, because when you
ask advice from locals on the island, I wouldsay 100% - the taxi driver or the guesthouse
owner - gets a kickback. Something like 20%.OF: That's a specific island kind of mentality.
(08:42):
What other island-specificmentality do you bump into?
Their low self-esteem. OF
Yeah, they don't think that they can do things, because they're from 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] island.
They always look up to big cities like 杭州[Hángzhōu] and 宁波 [Níngbō] and Shanghai
and Beijing. Everything that I've opened - from adessert shop, to a Japanese restaurant, to a pizza
(09:02):
shop - it's always been received with negativity.OF: Like a “It won't work here”?
Yeah, saying like “Oh, it's too small. It's only 40,000 people”
or “The fishermen will never be ableto welcome this into their lives”. But
the population has never been a big issuefor me, because I come from a small town.
OF (09:19):
Oh, where do you come from? DT
Massachusetts, and the population is like 30,000.So if I can see things that work in Milton,
I'm pretty sure it will work on an islandthat has a stronger domestic tourism.
Because no-one’s going to Milton for fun.OF: Apologies to anyone who lives in Milton.
How do you counter that?DT: You just prove it. And once they see that
(09:43):
they're business, they basically just shut up.OF: Well then what is the business?
Explain how your business works.DT: So when we came to 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] island,
we were targeting the locals, and we weretargeting all the B&Bs that were open.
So there's around 987 B&Bs. And ourjob was to supply them more desserts,
(10:03):
better alcohol, to serve their customers andimprove the overall experience. So basically,
our job was to help the B&Bs make more money.OF: And ‘B&B’ of course is ‘Bed and Breakfast’.
DT (10:14):
Yeah. OF
hotels? Or there are, but you don't target them.DT: They are. But they're self-sustainable.
OF (10:20):
Right. OK. DT
started opening more shops near the dessert shop.What my company's called is The Microdistrict.
Microdistrict. DT
I opened that company. And it's the idea ofhaving a condensed street of things to do.
Oh, I see. So these things, they’re not just in the same company.
They're actually physically in the samegeography. They’re in the same location.
DT (10:41):
Yeah, yeah. So going to school in Hong Kong, I've always been fascinated by how much they could
just fit things into small spaces.OF: Right.
And it's always those kind of places where I want to be in. And I wanted to recreate that,
that's kind of my artistic expression.OF: So whereabouts is this? In
the main part of the town, or..?DT: Yes, it's downtown, right beneath a
(11:04):
whole bunch of apartment complexes. Unfortunately,it's not by the beach. In order to get more of the
local customers, we had to be close towhere they live. And eventually, maybe 2022,
we'll start having more shops by the beach.OF: Right, got it. And the beach is the main draw
for 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] in terms of the tourism, right?DT: It is. There's basically a few narratives of
(11:26):
tourist. There are people who want to take photos;there are people who have never seen the ocean;
and there's people who really loveseafood. So those are the three
main groups of tourists on 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] island.OF: Interesting. So when you go there,
it's not just beach-goers, it’s people who arealso crowding around the seafood restaurants.
Yeah, exactly. So something that I always talk to people who live in Shanghai is,
(11:50):
you sure don't eat a lot of seafood. And yourmost famous seafood-ish dish is a crab that
comes from a lake.OF: Yeah.
Why is that? We're here on the coast after all.DT: I think it's because Shanghai developed
rather late. And so they never had achance to develop its fishing economy.
OF (12:06):
OK. DT
And so you mentioned Shanghai, you lived here for, was it 10 years?
DT (12:11):
Yeah, pretty much 10 years. OF
this recording on one of your trips to Shanghai.When you're in town, do you realise what you miss?
Or do you not miss it very much at all.DT: I miss the idea of it.
But once I'm in the thick ofthings, I don't really miss it.
First thing is pollution. And then there's thetraffic. Those two combined is already really bad.
(12:32):
When I think of my peers, or when I think ofbig companies that invest in Shanghai, I think
people who spend that amount of money isn't reallythere to make money. Because Shanghai is more of
a platform for marketing, and to meet people. Butif you really want to be in China to make money.
You’d probably be anywhere but Shanghai.OF: That's a good point, isn't it? Because
(12:54):
a lot of the things that you see inShanghai, I do wonder “How does it
make money?” It's always expensive, glitzy,showy. And then you go to a mall next door,
and it's the same glitzy, expensive, showy.And you do wonder “Who is making money here?”
Yeah, exactly. OF
of trying something in Shanghai first, or didyou know from the start that it wasn't for you?
(13:14):
My passion is farming. So I was working on 崇明 [Chóngmíng] island for a while, volunteering.
Then I was doing some vertical farm projects with同济 [Tóngjì] University. Wherever I kept going,
there's always just some type of issues whereShanghai just doesn't seem very possible, or
it's not very profitable. Long-term wise, if I hadto start a project on 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] island, I would
(13:36):
really like to start a farm. I really believe inagrotourism. When I was 16 years old, I googled
‘jobs that will still exist in the future’.OF: Right.
Because I had no direction. And they said "Oh, agriculture will still be around, by like 2050”.
So I was like, super invested, and I reallylike agriculture, so I was like “Yeah,
I think I could do this for a living.”OF: Yeah, yeah. And I can see how that
(13:58):
thought would have also brought you to the islandtoo, because like you said, you're trying to go
for domestic tourists. And if everything elsecloses down - which is like what happened with
COVID - then there are still presumably domestictourists who would still go to an island, right?
That’s, kind of, future-proofing your business.DT: Yeah. So COVID actually kind of
proved my point. But the problemwas, I wasn't ready for COVID.
OF (14:22):
Right. DT
of my business, faster than I wanted to. It’s donea lot of early marketing for 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] island.
And of a sudden, there are a lot more foreigntourists who have come to 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] island.
And a lot of people who have never heard ofit are now starting to hear about it. So I
think next year, there'll be an even biggerboom. But the problem is, 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] island
(14:46):
needs to be able to manage expectations.OF: Yes, because while you say that it
has potential, I get the feelingthat it's not there yet, right?
DT (14:55):
No. And to be fair, 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] island has not marketed itself that much. So this
is not some attention that they've brought uponthemselves. It's just the power of social media,
and a bunch of bored tourists in Shanghaifinding things to do for the weekends.
OF (15:11):
Yeah, exactly. Interesting. So that actually could be a disadvantage,
because they will come they will havehigh expectations, which will not be met.
DT (15:20):
Yeah, and this is kind of like a rare opportunity. If you mess this up. You're gonna
have to wait another 100 years for another COVID.OF: Right. Ouch. So what are you doing then?
Are you trying to spread the opposite kind ofmarketing, saying “No, no, no, don't come yet”.
For my friends, yeah, that's what I try to do. Not really recommending
(15:44):
the most tourist spots on the island.OF: Right. And I'm looking at these weights
that you brought, these net weights.Does that mean that there are these
picturesque little fishing villages still onthe island? Or has that all been redeveloped?
Yeah, they still exist. And that's the most fascinating thing is that,
if you look at the entirety of China, there'snot that many fishing villages compared to farms.
(16:08):
And the culture of fishing is verystrong. They're very superstitious.
OF (16:12):
Right. DT
to sea, they will have to go to the temple first.So the whole fishing industry is very interesting.
It's like, it hasn't really modernised. Andthe younger people don't want to do this job.
They want to live in the city. So now you getthis weird mixture of people from 云南 [Yúnnán],
(16:33):
贵州 [Guìzhōu], 四川 [Sìchuān] doing fishing jobs. Andall the local people who came here 150 years ago,
are now in the big cities. And they're livingquite nice lives, because fishermen, they make
quite a bit of money, especially if you comparethem to farmers. That's one of the reasons why
the 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] economy is so strong.OF: Right. And let's go back then to
(16:54):
your life on the island. So you canbe a big fish in a small pond, right?
DT (16:57):
Yeah. So the way we chose Microdistrict locations is very similar to how Mao would
spread communism. Mao would spread communismthrough villages and towns around big cities. As
opposed to going directly to the heart of Shanghaiand opening shops, we’re targeting areas that
have a relatively strong local population. Andonce that cashflow becomes more and more positive,
(17:23):
then I'll probably head into the big cities. Yeah.OF: Nice. Well, I'm not sure many business books
would make that leap from Maoism to how toexpand your business in China. I think that's
the first time I've actually heard of that.DT: Well a lot of Chinese grown officials
have told me that.OF: Interesting.
Yeah. So maybe they should be more business oriented.
OF (17:43):
Yeah. DT
that if you think that there's no opportunity inChina, then you're wrong. Every hour west that
you go is five years back. You know, one hour westthat’s five years, two hours west that's 10 years.
It's a huge place, so when you seethese Western commentaries about
‘no opportunities’, or ‘it’s peaked’, come on…OF: And you mentioned your father, so what does
(18:07):
your family think about what you're doing?DT: They don't say too much.
Do they think you're crazy, or..? DT
least this is a little bit closer to home. Butif you compare to what my father did, which is
representing the Roosevelt family for 30 years…OF: Oh right.
DT (18:24):
…It’s big shoes to fill. And to put that comparison to what I'm doing,
it's maybe not super fair. Because I'm notgoing to be able to represent some presidential
family in China.OF: Oh right.
Yeah. OF
interesting. And is that, do you think, why youhave maybe gone a little bit more unconventional
than other business people would have?DT: Yeah. So the most unconventional thing that
(18:50):
kicked off my life was choosing to go to Hong KongUniversity for college. People said, like “You’re
from Boston. It's Chinese people's dreams to go toschool in America”. And then my American friends
would say “What? You’re going to Asia for school?There are plenty of good schools in the States”.
How many ABCs do you know would choose to go thatroute? And most of my friends stayed at home,
(19:14):
the furthest they would go is to the UK. Yeah.OF: And then going back to, then, the question,
which was about your family. Soare they now fully supportive?
No. But I’ll just prove it to them like the way I prove to 嵊泗 [Shèngsì]
residents and the government officials.OF: Yes. Nice. Thank you so much, Douglon.
Thank you, Oscar. OF
[Part 2]OF: OK, are you ready?
(19:39):
I'm ready. OF
favourite China-related fact right now?DT: Coming from 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] island,
one of my favourite facts is that 嵊泗[Shèngsì] used to be part of Shanghai,
and it was after maybe the Cultural Revolutionthat it became part of 浙江 [Zhèjiāng]. So
I think it's been seven or eight timesnow that 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] has applied to be
(20:01):
part of Shanghai again, to return to the fold.OF: Oh wait, so they are being quite open about
wanting to leave 浙江 [Zhèjiāng] province?DT: They applied to Beijing. All the time.
OF (20:09):
Oh. I’ve never heard of that. Is that… Can you think of any other examples
of where a town has tried to change province?DT: I would assume a town that wants to be part of
a city state, like 重庆 [Chóngqìng] or 天津 [Tiānjīn].They probably have more benefits than to be part
of a huge province.OF: Right.
Yeah. OF
cross-provincial competition that the everydayperson wouldn't really be aware of, right?
DT (20:33):
Yeah. OF
have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?DT: Yeah, my favourite word is 应酬 [yìngchóu].
OF (20:39):
OK, what's that? DT
kind of a business engagement, that happensquite often. And I think understanding that
culture really progressed my business.OF: What actually is the 汉字 [Hànzì]? Oh,
应该的应 [yīnggāi de yīng], and then what's that one?
DT (20:57):
酬 [Chóu], 应酬 [yìngchóu]. OF
应酬 [Yìngchóu] culture is changing a lot. So on 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] island there’s no 白酒 [báijiǔ]
culture, just no 黄酒 [huángjiǔ] culture.We’re mostly drinking tea. But the dining
habits are the same. So I have tocheers everyone with tea, or hot water.
Which is fine, much easier on the liver.OF: Definitely. Thank you, next question,
(21:22):
what is your favourite destination within China?DT: So this is the tricky part. Because China
keeps changing.OF: Yeah.
So right now, my favourite place in China is 滴水 [Dīshuǐ] lake.
OF (21:31):
Oh, right. That's somewhere in Shanghai, right?
DT (21:34):
Yeah, right in between 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] island and downtown Shanghai. And I rented an apartment
there earlier this year, because I just, Ireally like 滴水 [Dīshuǐ] lake. It's like a mini
young version of 深圳 [Shēnzhèn].OF: OK.
Yeah. OF
So… Oh, I've been there once. But what is it?DT: Just full of young people. In 滴水 [Dīshuǐ]
lake, everyone's full of energy and just full ofgrowth potential. So it’s gonna be like a tech
(21:58):
and tax benefit hub. Tesla isaround there, their factory.
OF (22:03):
Right. Never been there. So I'm looking forward to it.
DT (22:07):
I’ll take you there. OF
miss the most, and what would you miss the least?DT: I’d miss the energy. Because
you can tell that people are still hopeful andoptimistic, and not jealous and full of hatred.
OF (22:21):
And what would you miss the least? DT
Is there anything that still surprises you about life in China? And how many
years have you actually been now in China?DT: I've been coming here on and off since ’93.
Living full time from university in 2009. So 10+years, I guess. And the thing that still surprises
(22:42):
me is how Chinese people are able to copycatthings, and make it into creative products.
Companies that chose to be in Tier One cities havenow outgrown the market. And people who decide to
start their business in Tier Five cities have nowoutgrown their market. So now they're fighting
for the Tier 2,3,4 cities. And so the foreigncompanies have to make their products cheaper.
(23:06):
Companies that started in Tier Five cities nowhave to improve their quality. So across the
board, you're gonna see a whole bunch of battles.OF: Interesting, and which tier is 嵊泗 [Shèngsì]
island?DT: Like,
Tier Eight I guess, just by population size.OF: Right, you’re not even on the radar.
DT (23:22):
Yeah. OF
place to go out, to eat or drink or hang out?DT: When I just want to relax and chill in
Shanghai, I usually go to this corner of 仙霞[Xiānxiá] Road and 安龙 [Ānlóng] Road. 2-3 blocks
of just heavily populated - like a Microdistrictof - restaurants and bars. Mostly Japanese themed.
(23:45):
But the whole vibe of that place is really cool.OF: Nice.
Yeah. OF
but you're here less and less, right?DT: Yeah, maybe next time, my new
favourite spot will be somewherein 滴水 [Dīshuǐ] lake, to hang out.
OF (23:57):
Ah yeah. DT
people from Nest, you should check it out.OF: Right. It's copying the bar and restaurant
‘Nest’ here in central Shanghai.DT: Yeah.
Well, you were just talking about copycats. DT
there first.OF: Yeah.
DT (24:13):
At a much cheaper price. OF
Yeah. These copycatters are almost good market research. You don't have to
spend the time saying “Should we open a Nestthere?” Someone's already done it for you.
OF (24:23):
What is the best or worst purchase you have made in China?
DT (24:28):
My scooter. Yeah, I literally just go around on my scooter looking at sunsets.
OF (24:33):
Nice. DT
if I ever choose to go to another place to expand,to do restaurants, first thing I'm going to do
is buy a scooter and become an 饿了么 [Èleme] driver.Because right away I know who is ordering what…
Yeah, that’s… DT
It's the best market research,by being a an 饿了么 [Èleme] driver.
(24:54):
That's amazing. What is your favourite WeChat sticker? OK, it's coming through. Ah, yes.
DT (25:03):
Yeah, it's quite popular. It's Elmo behind a flame wall. So it looks like Elmo from hell.
Because sometimes people say things in groupchats, and I have nothing to say. And this is
the only sticker I found that's applicable toanything, whether it's good news or bad news.
Because you can't tell if he's in torture, or he'scelebrating; if he's excited, or if he's upset.
(25:26):
So the applicability is very high.Which means that I use it a lot.
OF (25:31):
Well, I do have this, and I haven't used it enough because of the ambiguity. I'm like “Oh,
when do I actually use it?” But I shouldjust push through that. Use it at all times.
What is your go-to song to sing at KTV?DT: I have a go-to song that people
want me to sing a KTV.
Oh-Oh. DT
(25:53):
What a Wonderful World.OF: Oh, you have got
quite a deep voice, is that why?DT: Yeah. But it's just because
they want to hear me impersonate him.OF: Oh, you can do an impersonation?
DT (26:02):
Yeah. So once people get drunk enough, or if I get drunk enough, that song somehow always
ends up… And it's not… Because the thing is, theversion on the KTV machines isn't even very good.
OF (26:16):
It's a crowd-pleaser. If you had a choice, what would you like to sing?
DT (26:20):
Probably any Beatles songs. Because that's what I sing when I play guitar.
OF (26:24):
There you go. And finally, what other China-related media or
sources of information do you rely on?DT: Shanghai Daily. Because there's so
many sources of media, different opinions.But at least with Shanghai Daily, I know
what the government wants to happen. Andwith that, it's easier for me to align my
business decisions. Hence 滴水 [Dīshuǐ] lake.OF: Ah yeah, course. Douglon, thank you,
(26:47):
that was fascinating. I can't wait to visit theisland, and when I do, I will put a little update
at the end of this podcast. And I willlet people know what I thought of the
island. So you and I will meet there.DT: Yeah, looking forward to it Oscar.
Thank you. And before you leave let me ask you, out of everyone you know in China,
who would you recommend that I interviewfor the next season of Mosaic of China?
DT (27:07):
I recommend someone I've known for many years. I went to high school with her. And she started
her own company doing gems and diamonds.OF: Nice. What's her name?
Her name is Christina Chao. OF
look forward to the education. Thank you Douglon.DT: Thank you.
[Outro]OF:
(27:30):
Seeing as today's episode is halfway through theseason, let's try to link Douglon with some of the
other guests from the show. Firstly the term‘ABC', American Born Chinese. That was first
explained way back in Season 01 Episode 02 withthe comedian and gangster's daughter Maple Zuo.
So this is a good excuse to remind you of thatone, if you haven't listened to it already,
(27:54):
it was a doozy. Douglon's best purchase was hisscooter, that's only the second time that's been
mentioned in Season 02, the other time was bySean Harmon from the specialty beer company
Duvel Moortgat in Episode 09. And the otheranswer which connects Douglon to other episodes
was his favourite news source, Shanghai Daily,which is now just known as 'Shine'. The other
(28:19):
people who've mentioned that were the solar powerentrepreneur Alex Shoer from Season 02 Episode 11;
and Sanford Browne, the Head of Research andDevelopment at L’Oréal from Season 01 Episode 29.
As regular listeners will know by now, thereis also a PREMIUM version of this, and every
other episode from the season, on both Patreoninternationally and 爱发电 [Àifādiàn] in China. If
(28:44):
you want to hear Douglon's big business idea thatinvolves chickens, be sure to subscribe there.
Here are some other clips from today's show...[Clip 1]
I was stuck with 2-3 months of food. Well at least we won't starve to death.
OF (28:56):
Wow. [Clip 2]
DT (28:57):
The original port that went to these islands was from the Bund.
[Clip 3]DT: Even when I wasn't leaving the islands,
they would want to know where I was going.[Clip 4]
Chickens can't register spiciness. OF
Yeah. [Clip 5]
The miso soup that you drink in Japan, part of the product comes from 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] island.
[Clip 6]DT: My title has changed. I'm no longer 小谢 [Xiǎo
Xiè], I’m now 谢总 [Xiè Zǒng].OF: Oh.
(29:19):
[Clip 7]DT: They fill the red wine to the
brim. And then you have to 干杯 [gānbēi] a wholefull glass of red wine instead of 白酒 [báijiǔ].
OF (29:26):
Oh man. [End of Audio Clips]
There's a catch-up right after thiswith Octo Cheung, the fashion designer
from Season 01 Episode 30, whom you heardearlier referring Douglon to the podcast.
And it was with Octo that I finally did visitDouglon and his wife Yiya on 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] Island
a few months ago. To see photos from thattrip - as well as to see Douglon's object,
(29:48):
the rocks that weigh down fishing nets; hisfavourite WeChat sticker of Elmo from hell;
and plenty more besides - please follow us onInstagram, Facebook, or https://mosaicofchina.com,
or add the WeChat ID (30:00):
mosaicofchina, and I'll add you to the group there.
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs,with artwork by Denny Newell.
We'll be taking a week off, but we'llbe back in a fortnight for a special
edition of the show to mark the halfwaypoint of Season 02. So I'll see you then.
(30:21):
[Catch-Up Interview]OF:
It's so nice to see you Octo, thank you forcoming. I brought you here because I really
wanted to have a catch up.OC: Yeah.
OF (30:35):
You were the finale of Season 01, and I was so happy because your story was really great.
OC (30:40):
Oh thank you so much. It has a lot of secret insight.
OF (30:44):
It was. It was really insightful. And as you know from our conversation,
I don't know much about fashion. So for me,I had a huge learning curve during our chat.,
OC (30:54):
So I can help you to dress next time. OF
fashionable, but you can see I'm failing.Well, I wanted to ask you, first of all,
about your story during Coronavirus.OC: Yes. All the shopping mall closed.
So that means your shop is closed, you don't haveany revenue for a few months. And then in China,
(31:18):
they recovered very fast. And then the factoriesstarted to open in the first week of April;
and then they got into normal production;and now they're even quicker than before.
OF (31:30):
Right. OC
And there are countries that are still in very harsh lockdowns. But
things here have really rebounded, haven't they?OC: Yeah. And the sales they are having is double
digit growth. So it's quite amazing.Because for some fashion brands,
the Coronavirus is still very serious overseas. Sonow they moved all their goods to sell in China.
(31:54):
Right. They can pull products that otherwise would be sold outside,
they can pull it back into China.OC: Yes. So you can see some fashion
brands like Chanel, like Hermès, the specialeditions of their products, normally they would
sell them in their own country or in Europe.Now they switched to selling them in China.
Wow. OC
Gosh, I wonder if that's going to be a trend? That they're actually going to
(32:15):
release in China before their home markets?OC: Yes, yes. The world is changing. Really.
Interesting. Was it also affecting your brand? Because that's what we talked about in our
episode, it was your innovative “pilloon” jacket.OC: Yes. So actually, we are doing very great
recently. So that's why I'm very busy.OF: Oh right.
OC (32:34):
Yeah, so we had a new edition, it became ‘super ultra light’. So this jacket, we first
released in Taiwan. And we were very surprised,because we are a kind of travel product.
And now people cannot travel overseas.OF: That’s what I was worried about.
Yes. OF
(32:54):
buy a travel jacket, right? But go on.OC: Yes. But because people love travel
deeply in their blood, even though you cannottravel overseas, they would choose to travel
all around their place, their own country.OF: Even Taiwan, which is a small island.
Yeah, yeah. OF
as the first place to launch. I'm guessing youhave plans to launch it in mainland China next.
(33:17):
The next one is Japan. OF
Next is Japan. Actually, for AirOgo we released almost all of our products in
the surrounding countries, and then China isthe next step. Because China is very competitive
for an unknown brand they don’t know.OF: Right, right.
Yes. OF
(33:38):
consumer, a Japanese consumer, they are maybe morelooking out for a small boutique brand like yours.
Yes, yes, you're right. OF
You know it very well, Oscar. OF
fashion guru after all. So I am going to bereleasing this episode at the same time as
Douglon, who was the personyou referred for Season 02.
(34:00):
Oh right, that’s very good. OF
Yeah. OF
So after I did the recording, you and I went.OC: Yeah.
OF (34:10):
Talk to me about that weekend. OC
We rented a motorbike. So we went around allthe places on the island. And then we ate
seafood. The only thing is, when you wantedto have a dinner at around 8pm, you couldn’t
(34:31):
find any restaurants who could help you.OF: Yes, it's that kind of mentality, right?
OC (34:36):
Yes. OF
interview, like, it's a work in progress.OC: Yes
OF (34:41):
You can see the fundamentals are there. And you can see that they're making progress.
OC (34:45):
Yeah. OF
it's going to get better and better.OC: But it’s a very good time to see
a place in China like that. You cansee a lot of commercial opportunity.
OF (34:56):
Yes, OC
generation to have their first try there.OF: Exactly. And then of course, I joined you.
I didn't stay at the same place, but then we had acouple of days together. And it was really nice to
reconnect with you there.OC: Yeah.
And I should also say that you have reconnected with another of the guests from
Season 01, I learnt that you and Astrid…OC: Oh, yeah.
(35:19):
…The violinist, have become friends. OC
You have the same birthday? OC
That's lovely. OC
both enthusiastic, we love to talk, we love art.OF: Yeah. I mean, that to me is the real magic.
Because this project is just basically me runningaround town, having little interviews in a box,
(35:46):
and then staying at home and editing. It'snot that glamorous. But then when I see
the connections that are made, just likeyou and Astrid, that's magical for me. So
I'm so happy to hear that you’re friends. Ireally appreciate that, Octo. And thank you
so much for coming back today.OC: Thank you Oscar.
[Trailer]DT: I was like “Hold
on, everything has changed somuch in China from 2011 to 2017.
And how does this island, so closeto Shanghai, stay almost the same?”
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
(00:22):
As someone who, in general, has a 'go with theflow and see where life takes me' attitude,
I'm always intrigued by seriouspeople with serious plans.
Today's guest has a long-term vision for hislife, and it's a path that has led him to a
unique place, which he describes very vividlyin today's episode. At 30 years old, Douglon
(00:42):
is also one of the youngest guests in Season02, so if you're also young and thinking about
how to go about making your mark in China, youin particular should find this one of interest.
And finally, Douglon speaks excellentChinese, but with a local pronunciation.
So listen out for that, if you're anywhereoutside of the area around 浙江 [Zhèjiāng] Province.
(01:02):
[Part 1]OF:
Thank you for coming, Douglon. I'm here withDouglon Tse. Douglon, you are a friend of Octo’s,
that’s who introduced you. So let me playyou the introduction that Octo said about
you from the last series.[Start of Audio Clip]
Octo CHEUNG (01:20):
I'm recommending a very good guy called Douglon. And he's from a very
interesting family. He's doing a very coolbusiness, it’s a small island next to Shanghai.
[End of Audio Clip]DT: Yeah.
OF (01:34):
That was Octo. So first of all, tell me how do you know Octo?
DT (01:37):
She designed my suit and my wife's dress at our wedding,
through the kind introduction from my father.OF: Well, there you go. And she said that you
come from an interesting family. I'm sure we’lldiscuss that as part of our discussion today.
Yeah. OF
the first thing I would ask anyone inthat chair is, what object did you bring
that in some way represents your life in China?DT: I brought a very humble rock from 嵊泗 [Shèngsì]
(02:03):
island. This rock is something thatwe try to incorporate in our design
for our shops on 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] island. And wetry to use as much local stuff as possible.
And so local fishermen would use these rocksto weigh down the nets when they go fishing.
OF (02:17):
Right. DT
And I usually give this as a gift to all myfriends who visit me on 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] island.
Oh, as a gift. So what do they use it for? DT
holder. So this rock is for you.OF: Excellent. Oh, thank you so
much. Wait, so this rock here has
(02:38):
been at the bottom of the ocean, has it?DT: Yes. What they do is they would go out
to sea and, depending on the seasons, they wouldfish for different things, from fishes to crabs,
to shrimps. The entire island, for the past coupleof hundred years, is based off a fishing economy.
Until recently, after they made transportationmore convenient, tourism started to boom.
(02:59):
OK. Well, first of all then, describe to me where is this island?
DT (03:06):
嵊泗 [Shèngsì] island is around 60-70 kilometres south of Shanghai.
And right now, it's an hour and a half away,a ferry ride to the port and a 15 minute to an
hour and a half boat ride, depending on the slowboat or fast boat. The boom in tourism really
started around the 1990s after they built thatbridge to that huge port called 洋山 [Yángshān].
OF (03:28):
Right, that place which is still within Shanghai, but it is in the middle of the sea,
right?DT: Exactly.
So this port, how far is it from the mainland of Shanghai?
DT (03:40):
Something like 30 kilometres away. If you drive under the speed limit, it takes around 30
minutes to cross that bridge.OF: That’s one big bridge.
Yeah. The 东海 [Dōnghǎi] bridge. It's not very famous. The one that goes across 杭州 [Hángzhōu]
is more famous to most people.OF: Yes
People drive across that bridge all the time. OF
(04:02):
because it just gets to a port,it’s mainly for the port traffic.
Yeah. OF
accent. I’m assuming that you're American.DT: Yeah, I'm from Boston. After going to
college in Hong Kong University,I worked in Shanghai for 10 years,
and was mostly in the restaurant business.
I was trying to find a place to build my career,and trying to find a place in China that was
(04:26):
slow enough, and not developing like crazy Chinaspeed, where I could compete. And so I did some
exploration around Shanghai, basically drawing athree hour radius, and discovered 嵊泗 [Shèngsì].
OF (04:38):
OK, so when you first went there, what year was that?
DT (04:42):
2011. Well, that was just out of tourism purposes, because I was really bored,
and I didn't have many friends.OF: Right. And why did you
choose 嵊泗 [Shèngsì], just randomly?DT: It was a SmartShanghai article.
OF (04:54):
Oh right. DT
piece about the graffiti walls in one of thevillages. And I went there in the dead of winter;
didn’t do much, because most of the things wereclosed; saw the graffiti walls; and went back
to Shanghai the next day.OF: Oh that was it.
DT (05:07):
Yeah it was a very short trip. OF
much on the island anyway, at that point.DT: No, there wasn’t. And it was really dirty
at that time. Literally just people settingup shop on the street and selling things.
Who knows if it was actually clean or safe.OF: Interesting. And so it was this neglected
piece of China, which wasn't onthe radar for anyone at that point.
(05:29):
Yeah. And in many ways, it still isn't on the radar for many people.
OF (05:32):
Yeah. DT
I think of 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] island, I think I'vefound a place where nothing has been touched,
which is really rare. Big companies have nottouched it. I'm the only expat who lives there.
So English teachers have not touched it yet.OF: Oh wow wait a minute, you're the only
non-Chinese person?DT: Yes.
OK. And how many people live on the island altogether?
DT (05:51):
40,000 on the main island. OF
Yeah, so… I think altogether, there are five main islands, for the 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] archipelago,
and there's a whole bunch of smaller islands thatI can’t even name. They’re not even liveable.
They have docks on these small islands,and it's great for nature photography,
hiking, seeing the sunset, sunrise, thatkind of thing. But no one lives there.
OF (06:13):
Well, then talk me through what happened. So you went there
to see the graffiti, and then now you live onthe island. So what happened in the interim?
DT (06:22):
So I thought I was going through my farewell party for Shanghai, do a whole China tour with
my wife, and then to decide what would be thenext phase of our work lives and also our lives
together. So I proposed to her like “Oh, I knowthese really cool islands south of Shanghai,
it'd be cool just to check it out andmake it part of our road trip.” So 2017,
(06:44):
we take the ferry there, everything almostlooks like the same. And that was the problem.
I was like “Hold on, everything has changed somuch in China from 2011 to 2017. And how does
this island, so close to Shanghai, stay almost thesame?” And that was where I felt I could develop
my career. So that was a short road trip.OF: Oh, so you didn’t even carry on.
(07:07):
It was just screaming opportunity. So we just seized it. We really wanted to do
domestic tourism. What we were banking on was,domestic tourism will keep going up regardless
of China's economy. Because if it goes up,there’s around another 7-8 hundred million
middle class people that will become realised,and they're going to be travelling all around.
And if it is a bad economy, then it’s just lessinternational tourism. A lot more wealthier
(07:33):
Chinese will have to find other options. And嵊泗 [Shèngsì] island being so close to Shanghai,
we just felt that it will always do well.OF: So could it have been any Island? Or
was it something about this specific island?DT: Well, we chose 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] island versus
other islands, because it wasn't too influencedby tourism. So we knew that we needed to have
(07:53):
the local patronage in order to survive the downseason. It's really hard to get quality staff that
just leave after six months. And just the momentumof the business. Because we're in the restaurant
business, the constant 点评 [Diǎnpíng] reviews.If we don't get constant 点评 [Diǎnpíng] reviews,
then we just start heading down south.OF: And just to explain,
what is a 点评 [Diǎnpíng] review?DT: On an international level,
(08:16):
it’s kinda like TripAdvisor. Soit's very crucial to our business
and they've basically taken over.OF: It still matters on an island
where you have much more of a smaller catchment?DT: Oh it’s even more so. Yeah, because when you
ask advice from locals on the island, I wouldsay 100% - the taxi driver or the guesthouse
owner - gets a kickback. Something like 20%.OF: That's a specific island kind of mentality.
(08:42):
What other island-specificmentality do you bump into?
Their low self-esteem. OF
Yeah, they don't think that they can do things, because they're from 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] island.
They always look up to big cities like 杭州[Hángzhōu] and 宁波 [Níngbō] and Shanghai
and Beijing. Everything that I've opened - from adessert shop, to a Japanese restaurant, to a pizza
(09:02):
shop - it's always been received with negativity.OF: Like a “It won't work here”?
Yeah, saying like “Oh, it's too small. It's only 40,000 people”
or “The fishermen will never be ableto welcome this into their lives”. But
the population has never been a big issuefor me, because I come from a small town.
OF (09:19):
Oh, where do you come from? DT
Massachusetts, and the population is like 30,000.So if I can see things that work in Milton,
I'm pretty sure it will work on an islandthat has a stronger domestic tourism.
Because no-one’s going to Milton for fun.OF: Apologies to anyone who lives in Milton.
How do you counter that?DT: You just prove it. And once they see that
(09:43):
they're business, they basically just shut up.OF: Well then what is the business?
Explain how your business works.DT: So when we came to 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] island,
we were targeting the locals, and we weretargeting all the B&Bs that were open.
So there's around 987 B&Bs. And ourjob was to supply them more desserts,
(10:03):
better alcohol, to serve their customers andimprove the overall experience. So basically,
our job was to help the B&Bs make more money.OF: And ‘B&B’ of course is ‘Bed and Breakfast’.
DT (10:14):
Yeah. OF
hotels? Or there are, but you don't target them.DT: They are. But they're self-sustainable.
OF (10:20):
Right. OK. DT
started opening more shops near the dessert shop.What my company's called is The Microdistrict.
Microdistrict. DT
I opened that company. And it's the idea ofhaving a condensed street of things to do.
Oh, I see. So these things, they’re not just in the same company.
They're actually physically in the samegeography. They’re in the same location.
DT (10:41):
Yeah, yeah. So going to school in Hong Kong, I've always been fascinated by how much they could
just fit things into small spaces.OF: Right.
And it's always those kind of places where I want to be in. And I wanted to recreate that,
that's kind of my artistic expression.OF: So whereabouts is this? In
the main part of the town, or..?DT: Yes, it's downtown, right beneath a
(11:04):
whole bunch of apartment complexes. Unfortunately,it's not by the beach. In order to get more of the
local customers, we had to be close towhere they live. And eventually, maybe 2022,
we'll start having more shops by the beach.OF: Right, got it. And the beach is the main draw
for 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] in terms of the tourism, right?DT: It is. There's basically a few narratives of
(11:26):
tourist. There are people who want to take photos;there are people who have never seen the ocean;
and there's people who really loveseafood. So those are the three
main groups of tourists on 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] island.OF: Interesting. So when you go there,
it's not just beach-goers, it’s people who arealso crowding around the seafood restaurants.
Yeah, exactly. So something that I always talk to people who live in Shanghai is,
(11:50):
you sure don't eat a lot of seafood. And yourmost famous seafood-ish dish is a crab that
comes from a lake.OF: Yeah.
Why is that? We're here on the coast after all.DT: I think it's because Shanghai developed
rather late. And so they never had achance to develop its fishing economy.
OF (12:06):
OK. DT
And so you mentioned Shanghai, you lived here for, was it 10 years?
DT (12:11):
Yeah, pretty much 10 years. OF
this recording on one of your trips to Shanghai.When you're in town, do you realise what you miss?
Or do you not miss it very much at all.DT: I miss the idea of it.
But once I'm in the thick ofthings, I don't really miss it.
First thing is pollution. And then there's thetraffic. Those two combined is already really bad.
(12:32):
When I think of my peers, or when I think ofbig companies that invest in Shanghai, I think
people who spend that amount of money isn't reallythere to make money. Because Shanghai is more of
a platform for marketing, and to meet people. Butif you really want to be in China to make money.
You’d probably be anywhere but Shanghai.OF: That's a good point, isn't it? Because
(12:54):
a lot of the things that you see inShanghai, I do wonder “How does it
make money?” It's always expensive, glitzy,showy. And then you go to a mall next door,
and it's the same glitzy, expensive, showy.And you do wonder “Who is making money here?”
Yeah, exactly. OF
of trying something in Shanghai first, or didyou know from the start that it wasn't for you?
(13:14):
My passion is farming. So I was working on 崇明 [Chóngmíng] island for a while, volunteering.
Then I was doing some vertical farm projects with同济 [Tóngjì] University. Wherever I kept going,
there's always just some type of issues whereShanghai just doesn't seem very possible, or
it's not very profitable. Long-term wise, if I hadto start a project on 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] island, I would
(13:36):
really like to start a farm. I really believe inagrotourism. When I was 16 years old, I googled
‘jobs that will still exist in the future’.OF: Right.
Because I had no direction. And they said "Oh, agriculture will still be around, by like 2050”.
So I was like, super invested, and I reallylike agriculture, so I was like “Yeah,
I think I could do this for a living.”OF: Yeah, yeah. And I can see how that
(13:58):
thought would have also brought you to the islandtoo, because like you said, you're trying to go
for domestic tourists. And if everything elsecloses down - which is like what happened with
COVID - then there are still presumably domestictourists who would still go to an island, right?
That’s, kind of, future-proofing your business.DT: Yeah. So COVID actually kind of
proved my point. But the problemwas, I wasn't ready for COVID.
OF (14:22):
Right. DT
of my business, faster than I wanted to. It’s donea lot of early marketing for 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] island.
And of a sudden, there are a lot more foreigntourists who have come to 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] island.
And a lot of people who have never heard ofit are now starting to hear about it. So I
think next year, there'll be an even biggerboom. But the problem is, 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] island
(14:46):
needs to be able to manage expectations.OF: Yes, because while you say that it
has potential, I get the feelingthat it's not there yet, right?
DT (14:55):
No. And to be fair, 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] island has not marketed itself that much. So this
is not some attention that they've brought uponthemselves. It's just the power of social media,
and a bunch of bored tourists in Shanghaifinding things to do for the weekends.
OF (15:11):
Yeah, exactly. Interesting. So that actually could be a disadvantage,
because they will come they will havehigh expectations, which will not be met.
DT (15:20):
Yeah, and this is kind of like a rare opportunity. If you mess this up. You're gonna
have to wait another 100 years for another COVID.OF: Right. Ouch. So what are you doing then?
Are you trying to spread the opposite kind ofmarketing, saying “No, no, no, don't come yet”.
For my friends, yeah, that's what I try to do. Not really recommending
(15:44):
the most tourist spots on the island.OF: Right. And I'm looking at these weights
that you brought, these net weights.Does that mean that there are these
picturesque little fishing villages still onthe island? Or has that all been redeveloped?
Yeah, they still exist. And that's the most fascinating thing is that,
if you look at the entirety of China, there'snot that many fishing villages compared to farms.
(16:08):
And the culture of fishing is verystrong. They're very superstitious.
OF (16:12):
Right. DT
to sea, they will have to go to the temple first.So the whole fishing industry is very interesting.
It's like, it hasn't really modernised. Andthe younger people don't want to do this job.
They want to live in the city. So now you getthis weird mixture of people from 云南 [Yúnnán],
(16:33):
贵州 [Guìzhōu], 四川 [Sìchuān] doing fishing jobs. Andall the local people who came here 150 years ago,
are now in the big cities. And they're livingquite nice lives, because fishermen, they make
quite a bit of money, especially if you comparethem to farmers. That's one of the reasons why
the 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] economy is so strong.OF: Right. And let's go back then to
(16:54):
your life on the island. So you canbe a big fish in a small pond, right?
DT (16:57):
Yeah. So the way we chose Microdistrict locations is very similar to how Mao would
spread communism. Mao would spread communismthrough villages and towns around big cities. As
opposed to going directly to the heart of Shanghaiand opening shops, we’re targeting areas that
have a relatively strong local population. Andonce that cashflow becomes more and more positive,
(17:23):
then I'll probably head into the big cities. Yeah.OF: Nice. Well, I'm not sure many business books
would make that leap from Maoism to how toexpand your business in China. I think that's
the first time I've actually heard of that.DT: Well a lot of Chinese grown officials
have told me that.OF: Interesting.
Yeah. So maybe they should be more business oriented.
OF (17:43):
Yeah. DT
that if you think that there's no opportunity inChina, then you're wrong. Every hour west that
you go is five years back. You know, one hour westthat’s five years, two hours west that's 10 years.
It's a huge place, so when you seethese Western commentaries about
‘no opportunities’, or ‘it’s peaked’, come on…OF: And you mentioned your father, so what does
(18:07):
your family think about what you're doing?DT: They don't say too much.
Do they think you're crazy, or..? DT
least this is a little bit closer to home. Butif you compare to what my father did, which is
representing the Roosevelt family for 30 years…OF: Oh right.
DT (18:24):
…It’s big shoes to fill. And to put that comparison to what I'm doing,
it's maybe not super fair. Because I'm notgoing to be able to represent some presidential
family in China.OF: Oh right.
Yeah. OF
interesting. And is that, do you think, why youhave maybe gone a little bit more unconventional
than other business people would have?DT: Yeah. So the most unconventional thing that
(18:50):
kicked off my life was choosing to go to Hong KongUniversity for college. People said, like “You’re
from Boston. It's Chinese people's dreams to go toschool in America”. And then my American friends
would say “What? You’re going to Asia for school?There are plenty of good schools in the States”.
How many ABCs do you know would choose to go thatroute? And most of my friends stayed at home,
(19:14):
the furthest they would go is to the UK. Yeah.OF: And then going back to, then, the question,
which was about your family. Soare they now fully supportive?
No. But I’ll just prove it to them like the way I prove to 嵊泗 [Shèngsì]
residents and the government officials.OF: Yes. Nice. Thank you so much, Douglon.
Thank you, Oscar. OF
[Part 2]OF: OK, are you ready?
(19:39):
I'm ready. OF
favourite China-related fact right now?DT: Coming from 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] island,
one of my favourite facts is that 嵊泗[Shèngsì] used to be part of Shanghai,
and it was after maybe the Cultural Revolutionthat it became part of 浙江 [Zhèjiāng]. So
I think it's been seven or eight timesnow that 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] has applied to be
(20:01):
part of Shanghai again, to return to the fold.OF: Oh wait, so they are being quite open about
wanting to leave 浙江 [Zhèjiāng] province?DT: They applied to Beijing. All the time.
OF (20:09):
Oh. I’ve never heard of that. Is that… Can you think of any other examples
of where a town has tried to change province?DT: I would assume a town that wants to be part of
a city state, like 重庆 [Chóngqìng] or 天津 [Tiānjīn].They probably have more benefits than to be part
of a huge province.OF: Right.
Yeah. OF
cross-provincial competition that the everydayperson wouldn't really be aware of, right?
DT (20:33):
Yeah. OF
have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?DT: Yeah, my favourite word is 应酬 [yìngchóu].
OF (20:39):
OK, what's that? DT
kind of a business engagement, that happensquite often. And I think understanding that
culture really progressed my business.OF: What actually is the 汉字 [Hànzì]? Oh,
应该的应 [yīnggāi de yīng], and then what's that one?
DT (20:57):
酬 [Chóu], 应酬 [yìngchóu]. OF
应酬 [Yìngchóu] culture is changing a lot. So on 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] island there’s no 白酒 [báijiǔ]
culture, just no 黄酒 [huángjiǔ] culture.We’re mostly drinking tea. But the dining
habits are the same. So I have tocheers everyone with tea, or hot water.
Which is fine, much easier on the liver.OF: Definitely. Thank you, next question,
(21:22):
what is your favourite destination within China?DT: So this is the tricky part. Because China
keeps changing.OF: Yeah.
So right now, my favourite place in China is 滴水 [Dīshuǐ] lake.
OF (21:31):
Oh, right. That's somewhere in Shanghai, right?
DT (21:34):
Yeah, right in between 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] island and downtown Shanghai. And I rented an apartment
there earlier this year, because I just, Ireally like 滴水 [Dīshuǐ] lake. It's like a mini
young version of 深圳 [Shēnzhèn].OF: OK.
Yeah. OF
So… Oh, I've been there once. But what is it?DT: Just full of young people. In 滴水 [Dīshuǐ]
lake, everyone's full of energy and just full ofgrowth potential. So it’s gonna be like a tech
(21:58):
and tax benefit hub. Tesla isaround there, their factory.
OF (22:03):
Right. Never been there. So I'm looking forward to it.
DT (22:07):
I’ll take you there. OF
miss the most, and what would you miss the least?DT: I’d miss the energy. Because
you can tell that people are still hopeful andoptimistic, and not jealous and full of hatred.
OF (22:21):
And what would you miss the least? DT
Is there anything that still surprises you about life in China? And how many
years have you actually been now in China?DT: I've been coming here on and off since ’93.
Living full time from university in 2009. So 10+years, I guess. And the thing that still surprises
(22:42):
me is how Chinese people are able to copycatthings, and make it into creative products.
Companies that chose to be in Tier One cities havenow outgrown the market. And people who decide to
start their business in Tier Five cities have nowoutgrown their market. So now they're fighting
for the Tier 2,3,4 cities. And so the foreigncompanies have to make their products cheaper.
(23:06):
Companies that started in Tier Five cities nowhave to improve their quality. So across the
board, you're gonna see a whole bunch of battles.OF: Interesting, and which tier is 嵊泗 [Shèngsì]
island?DT: Like,
Tier Eight I guess, just by population size.OF: Right, you’re not even on the radar.
DT (23:22):
Yeah. OF
place to go out, to eat or drink or hang out?DT: When I just want to relax and chill in
Shanghai, I usually go to this corner of 仙霞[Xiānxiá] Road and 安龙 [Ānlóng] Road. 2-3 blocks
of just heavily populated - like a Microdistrictof - restaurants and bars. Mostly Japanese themed.
(23:45):
But the whole vibe of that place is really cool.OF: Nice.
Yeah. OF
but you're here less and less, right?DT: Yeah, maybe next time, my new
favourite spot will be somewherein 滴水 [Dīshuǐ] lake, to hang out.
OF (23:57):
Ah yeah. DT
people from Nest, you should check it out.OF: Right. It's copying the bar and restaurant
‘Nest’ here in central Shanghai.DT: Yeah.
Well, you were just talking about copycats. DT
there first.OF: Yeah.
DT (24:13):
At a much cheaper price. OF
Yeah. These copycatters are almost good market research. You don't have to
spend the time saying “Should we open a Nestthere?” Someone's already done it for you.
OF (24:23):
What is the best or worst purchase you have made in China?
DT (24:28):
My scooter. Yeah, I literally just go around on my scooter looking at sunsets.
OF (24:33):
Nice. DT
if I ever choose to go to another place to expand,to do restaurants, first thing I'm going to do
is buy a scooter and become an 饿了么 [Èleme] driver.Because right away I know who is ordering what…
Yeah, that’s… DT
It's the best market research,by being a an 饿了么 [Èleme] driver.
(24:54):
That's amazing. What is your favourite WeChat sticker? OK, it's coming through. Ah, yes.
DT (25:03):
Yeah, it's quite popular. It's Elmo behind a flame wall. So it looks like Elmo from hell.
Because sometimes people say things in groupchats, and I have nothing to say. And this is
the only sticker I found that's applicable toanything, whether it's good news or bad news.
Because you can't tell if he's in torture, or he'scelebrating; if he's excited, or if he's upset.
(25:26):
So the applicability is very high.Which means that I use it a lot.
OF (25:31):
Well, I do have this, and I haven't used it enough because of the ambiguity. I'm like “Oh,
when do I actually use it?” But I shouldjust push through that. Use it at all times.
What is your go-to song to sing at KTV?DT: I have a go-to song that people
want me to sing a KTV.
Oh-Oh. DT
(25:53):
What a Wonderful World.OF: Oh, you have got
quite a deep voice, is that why?DT: Yeah. But it's just because
they want to hear me impersonate him.OF: Oh, you can do an impersonation?
DT (26:02):
Yeah. So once people get drunk enough, or if I get drunk enough, that song somehow always
ends up… And it's not… Because the thing is, theversion on the KTV machines isn't even very good.
OF (26:16):
It's a crowd-pleaser. If you had a choice, what would you like to sing?
DT (26:20):
Probably any Beatles songs. Because that's what I sing when I play guitar.
OF (26:24):
There you go. And finally, what other China-related media or
sources of information do you rely on?DT: Shanghai Daily. Because there's so
many sources of media, different opinions.But at least with Shanghai Daily, I know
what the government wants to happen. Andwith that, it's easier for me to align my
business decisions. Hence 滴水 [Dīshuǐ] lake.OF: Ah yeah, course. Douglon, thank you,
(26:47):
that was fascinating. I can't wait to visit theisland, and when I do, I will put a little update
at the end of this podcast. And I willlet people know what I thought of the
island. So you and I will meet there.DT: Yeah, looking forward to it Oscar.
Thank you. And before you leave let me ask you, out of everyone you know in China,
who would you recommend that I interviewfor the next season of Mosaic of China?
DT (27:07):
I recommend someone I've known for many years. I went to high school with her. And she started
her own company doing gems and diamonds.OF: Nice. What's her name?
Her name is Christina Chao. OF
look forward to the education. Thank you Douglon.DT: Thank you.
[Outro]OF:
(27:30):
Seeing as today's episode is halfway through theseason, let's try to link Douglon with some of the
other guests from the show. Firstly the term‘ABC', American Born Chinese. That was first
explained way back in Season 01 Episode 02 withthe comedian and gangster's daughter Maple Zuo.
So this is a good excuse to remind you of thatone, if you haven't listened to it already,
(27:54):
it was a doozy. Douglon's best purchase was hisscooter, that's only the second time that's been
mentioned in Season 02, the other time was bySean Harmon from the specialty beer company
Duvel Moortgat in Episode 09. And the otheranswer which connects Douglon to other episodes
was his favourite news source, Shanghai Daily,which is now just known as 'Shine'. The other
(28:19):
people who've mentioned that were the solar powerentrepreneur Alex Shoer from Season 02 Episode 11;
and Sanford Browne, the Head of Research andDevelopment at L’Oréal from Season 01 Episode 29.
As regular listeners will know by now, thereis also a PREMIUM version of this, and every
other episode from the season, on both Patreoninternationally and 爱发电 [Àifādiàn] in China. If
(28:44):
you want to hear Douglon's big business idea thatinvolves chickens, be sure to subscribe there.
Here are some other clips from today's show...[Clip 1]
I was stuck with 2-3 months of food. Well at least we won't starve to death.
OF (28:56):
Wow. [Clip 2]
DT (28:57):
The original port that went to these islands was from the Bund.
[Clip 3]DT: Even when I wasn't leaving the islands,
they would want to know where I was going.[Clip 4]
Chickens can't register spiciness. OF
Yeah. [Clip 5]
The miso soup that you drink in Japan, part of the product comes from 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] island.
[Clip 6]DT: My title has changed. I'm no longer 小谢 [Xiǎo
Xiè], I’m now 谢总 [Xiè Zǒng].OF: Oh.
(29:19):
[Clip 7]DT: They fill the red wine to the
brim. And then you have to 干杯 [gānbēi] a wholefull glass of red wine instead of 白酒 [báijiǔ].
OF (29:26):
Oh man. [End of Audio Clips]
There's a catch-up right after thiswith Octo Cheung, the fashion designer
from Season 01 Episode 30, whom you heardearlier referring Douglon to the podcast.
And it was with Octo that I finally did visitDouglon and his wife Yiya on 嵊泗 [Shèngsì] Island
a few months ago. To see photos from thattrip - as well as to see Douglon's object,
(29:48):
the rocks that weigh down fishing nets; hisfavourite WeChat sticker of Elmo from hell;
and plenty more besides - please follow us onInstagram, Facebook, or https://mosaicofchina.com,
or add the WeChat ID (30:00):
mosaicofchina, and I'll add you to the group there.
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs,with artwork by Denny Newell.
We'll be taking a week off, but we'llbe back in a fortnight for a special
edition of the show to mark the halfwaypoint of Season 02. So I'll see you then.
(30:21):
[Catch-Up Interview]OF:
It's so nice to see you Octo, thank you forcoming. I brought you here because I really
wanted to have a catch up.OC: Yeah.
OF (30:35):
You were the finale of Season 01, and I was so happy because your story was really great.
OC (30:40):
Oh thank you so much. It has a lot of secret insight.
OF (30:44):
It was. It was really insightful. And as you know from our conversation,
I don't know much about fashion. So for me,I had a huge learning curve during our chat.,
OC (30:54):
So I can help you to dress next time. OF
fashionable, but you can see I'm failing.Well, I wanted to ask you, first of all,
about your story during Coronavirus.OC: Yes. All the shopping mall closed.
So that means your shop is closed, you don't haveany revenue for a few months. And then in China,
(31:18):
they recovered very fast. And then the factoriesstarted to open in the first week of April;
and then they got into normal production;and now they're even quicker than before.
OF (31:30):
Right. OC
And there are countries that are still in very harsh lockdowns. But
things here have really rebounded, haven't they?OC: Yeah. And the sales they are having is double
digit growth. So it's quite amazing.Because for some fashion brands,
the Coronavirus is still very serious overseas. Sonow they moved all their goods to sell in China.
(31:54):
Right. They can pull products that otherwise would be sold outside,
they can pull it back into China.OC: Yes. So you can see some fashion
brands like Chanel, like Hermès, the specialeditions of their products, normally they would
sell them in their own country or in Europe.Now they switched to selling them in China.
Wow. OC
Gosh, I wonder if that's going to be a trend? That they're actually going to
(32:15):
release in China before their home markets?OC: Yes, yes. The world is changing. Really.
Interesting. Was it also affecting your brand? Because that's what we talked about in our
episode, it was your innovative “pilloon” jacket.OC: Yes. So actually, we are doing very great
recently. So that's why I'm very busy.OF: Oh right.
OC (32:34):
Yeah, so we had a new edition, it became ‘super ultra light’. So this jacket, we first
released in Taiwan. And we were very surprised,because we are a kind of travel product.
And now people cannot travel overseas.OF: That’s what I was worried about.
Yes. OF
(32:54):
buy a travel jacket, right? But go on.OC: Yes. But because people love travel
deeply in their blood, even though you cannottravel overseas, they would choose to travel
all around their place, their own country.OF: Even Taiwan, which is a small island.
Yeah, yeah. OF
as the first place to launch. I'm guessing youhave plans to launch it in mainland China next.
(33:17):
The next one is Japan. OF
Next is Japan. Actually, for AirOgo we released almost all of our products in
the surrounding countries, and then China isthe next step. Because China is very competitive
for an unknown brand they don’t know.OF: Right, right.
Yes. OF
(33:38):
consumer, a Japanese consumer, they are maybe morelooking out for a small boutique brand like yours.
Yes, yes, you're right. OF
You know it very well, Oscar. OF
fashion guru after all. So I am going to bereleasing this episode at the same time as
Douglon, who was the personyou referred for Season 02.
(34:00):
Oh right, that’s very good. OF
Yeah. OF
So after I did the recording, you and I went.OC: Yeah.
OF (34:10):
Talk to me about that weekend. OC
We rented a motorbike. So we went around allthe places on the island. And then we ate
seafood. The only thing is, when you wantedto have a dinner at around 8pm, you couldn’t
(34:31):
find any restaurants who could help you.OF: Yes, it's that kind of mentality, right?
OC (34:36):
Yes. OF
interview, like, it's a work in progress.OC: Yes
OF (34:41):
You can see the fundamentals are there. And you can see that they're making progress.
OC (34:45):
Yeah. OF
it's going to get better and better.OC: But it’s a very good time to see
a place in China like that. You cansee a lot of commercial opportunity.
OF (34:56):
Yes, OC
generation to have their first try there.OF: Exactly. And then of course, I joined you.
I didn't stay at the same place, but then we had acouple of days together. And it was really nice to
reconnect with you there.OC: Yeah.
And I should also say that you have reconnected with another of the guests from
Season 01, I learnt that you and Astrid…OC: Oh, yeah.
(35:19):
…The violinist, have become friends. OC
You have the same birthday? OC
That's lovely. OC
both enthusiastic, we love to talk, we love art.OF: Yeah. I mean, that to me is the real magic.
Because this project is just basically me runningaround town, having little interviews in a box,
(35:46):
and then staying at home and editing. It'snot that glamorous. But then when I see
the connections that are made, just likeyou and Astrid, that's magical for me. So
I'm so happy to hear that you’re friends. Ireally appreciate that, Octo. And thank you
so much for coming back today.OC: Thank you Oscar.
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