November 14, 2022 • 38 mins
The country of Mongolia is sandwiched between Russia and China, and there are ethnic Mongolian areas in all three countries. So when talking about Mongolian people in China, it's not always clear whether you're talking about ethnic Mongolians from the Chinese province of Inner Mongolia [内蒙古 - Nèiménggǔ], or Mongolian nationals from across the border. Today's episode is with Tsogtgerel ("Tsogi") Bumerdene, a Mongolian national living in China, who wears this mantle of identity every day. But more than that, she's an artist, designer, teacher and mother. So we cover all of these facets in our casual yet wide-ranging conversation. The episode also includes catch-up interviews with: DJ BO from Season 02 Episode 23 https://mosaicofchina.com/season-02-episode-23-dj-bo and Abe Deyo from Season 01 Episode 07 https://mosaicofchina.com/season-01-episode-27-abe-deyo Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 00:56 - Part 1 16:15 - Part 2 25:42 - Outro 29:34 - Catch-Up Interview [1] 33:36 - Catch-Up Interview [2] Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at: https://mosaicofchina.com/season-03-episode-10-tsogtgerel-bumerdene Join the community: Instagram https://instagram.com/oscology LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/mosaicofchina Facebook https://facebook.com/mosaicofchina WeChat https://mosaicofchina.com/wechat
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Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
[Trailer]OF: I couldn’t sleep!
My brain couldn't understand what the hellwas going on.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina.
I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
Some episodes are hard to compartmentalise,and today’s is one of them.
(00:22):
We talk about teaching and art and fashionand entrepreneurism and Mongolia and sustainability
and family…
Honestly it’s a bit all over the place andI can’t really summarise it in this intro.
But in these episodes where we don’t focusin on just one key aspect of someone’s life,
that’s what makes the conversation muchmore ‘natural’.
(00:43):
It’s the kind of conversation that you canimagine having over a coffee when you meet
someone new.
And yet it’s also deeper than that, so Ihope that you enjoy the ground that we cover
today.
[Part 1]OF: Thank you so much for coming.
TB (00:58):
Oh, thank you so much for inviting me.
OF (01:00):
The first challenge I have is in saying your name.
Because there are some people who have namesthat I can't get my tongue around.
And you are definitely one of those people.
So let's start by having you say your fullname.
TB (01:14):
Sure.
I heard that a lot, since it is complicatedto pronounce.
So my full name is Цогтгэрэл [Tsogtgerel].
OF (01:21):
Say it again, but slowly.
Like, this is your first name only, right?
TB (01:24):
It’s just my first name only.
Цогтгэрэл [Tsogtgerel].
OF (01:27):
Цогтгэрэл [Tsogtgerel].
TB (01:28):
Yeah.
Since it's very hard to pronounce, I havea short name.
You can use Tsogi.
OF (01:33):
Perfect.
TB (01:34):
Or my English name, Ruby.
OF (01:36):
Thank you.
I did know that because since I've known you,I've been calling you Tsogi.
TB (01:39):
Yeah Tsogi’s definitely fine.
OF (01:41):
It's a very cute name, actually.
TB (01:43):
Oh, it is?
Thank you.
OF (01:45):
Yeah.
TB (01:46):
Like, the Mongolian language is quite a harsh language.
We have a lot of “rrrrr” sounds.
OF (01:50):
Yes.
And then what's your family name?
TB (01:52):
My family name is Бумэрдэнэ [Bumerdene].
OF (01:54):
Бумэрдэнэ [Bumerdene].
TB (01:55):
Yeah.
OF (01:56):
Цогтгэрэл [Tsogtgerel] Бумэрдэнэ [Bumerdene].
TB (01:57):
Right.
OF (01:58):
Wow.
TB (01:59):
Correct.
OF (02:00):
OK, I've said it once.
I probably will never say it again.
I'm gonna call you to Tsogi.
And you said that actually you also have anEnglish name Ruby.
But which do you prefer, do you prefer toTsogi or Ruby?
TB (02:08):
Oh, Tsogi is fine.
OF (02:10):
Yeah, good.
TB (02:11):
It’s natural.
OF (02:12):
Well now that I've said your name, we know a little bit about you already.
But the first question I would ask - to findout more - is “What object did you bring
that in some way defines your story here inChina?”
TB (02:25):
So it took me quite a long time to think of like what object might represent my life
in China.
It was a very last-minute decision, I broughtan apple.
There it is.
OF (02:39):
There it is.
TB (02:40):
A green apple.
I'm a teacher here in China.
OF (02:43):
Aha.
TB (02:44):
So I teach Visual Art, and Design & Technology.
The two subjects at the same time.
OF (02:48):
Visual Art, and then Design & Technology.
TB (02:50):
Yes.
OF (02:51):
I see.
TB (02:52):
Actually I’m a designer.
Before I became a teacher, I was a fashiondesigner.
I even started my own fashion brand.
And at the time, I was just a little bit lackingin experience, since I had just graduating
from university.
And I was almost like a bankrupt.
OF (03:11):
Oh gosh.
TB (03:12):
Yeah.
And I had to find a different job.
Teaching (03:16):
I was not into it.
But my family has a teaching background.
I mean, both parents are professors, and mygrandparents are professors at the university,
like they're all teachers.
OF (03:27):
Wow.
TB (03:28):
So I just thought “I'll just try it out.
I'll go get interviewed.”
And I got interviewed by the director.
And then they just offered me “Why don'tyou get observed?
You can have a trial lesson.
Just choose a topic that you would like toteach, and then come tomorrow morning.”
I didn't have any plan, any experience, Ihad no idea what to teach, and no idea whom
(03:49):
to teach.
So I just picked like Grade 11 at the time.
OF (03:52):
Which is what?
How old are the children in Grade 11?
TB (03:55):
15-16.
OF (03:56):
Uh huh.
And I'm still trying to work out…
TB (03:59):
…Why the apple?
OF (04:01):
Yes!
TB (04:02):
It will come out.
So here's the thing.
The next morning, I went to the school, Ididn't prepare anything, I couldn't think
of anything.
I just grabbed some pencils and papers.
My mom gave me an apple in the morning.
And I just needed an object, to teach studentsabout how to draw.
(04:24):
As an example, like how to draw using differentlines.
I drew the apple, because I only had an applein my bag.
OF (04:30):
Oh how funny.
TB (04:31):
And then I asked the students to tell me the description of an apple.
And here they started with very basic descriptionsof an apple.
Like “Green” and “Soft.”
And then I tried to expand their thinkingof an apple.
“How about where it has grown?”
Or "How did it come here?
How does it smell?
(04:52):
And so on.
How their imagination can go beyond the apple.
And then I just asked them “OK now let'ssay how Picasso or Dali would see an apple.”
OF (05:02):
Aha.
TB (05:03):
And then they saw an apple from very different perspectives.
OF (05:06):
Mmm.
TB (05:07):
It was just an apple.
But the way we see things actually definesthat thing.
And how we see things is more important.
I didn't plan that speech or that processactually, it was just what was on my mind
at the time.
I just created an engagement between me andthe students.
OF (05:26):
Yeah.
TB (05:27):
And I actually like felt “Oh wow!
I’m good at it!”
And it was so wonderful.
Ever since that time, teaching has felt moreimportant and more meaningful.
Being a teacher is influencing those who willbe living in the future.
OF (05:43):
Absolutely.
And it's a job which doesn't get very wellrecognised often.
TB (05:48):
Yeah.
OF (05:49):
But it's nice to have this excuse to talk to you, especially because you're teaching
art and design.
And that, for me, was actually the hardesttopic.
TB (05:58):
Oh.
OF (05:59):
Because I'm a terrible drawer.
And the problem I think I had with the wayI was taught was that my teacher didn't say
“Oh, it's all about how you feel.”
Actually when I was learning art, it was like“No, no.
Draw it correctly.”
TB (06:12):
Yeah.
OF (06:13):
“Draw that apple.”
TB (06:14):
That’s how we were all taught.
OF (06:15):
Right?
So do you feel pressure to also teach likethat?
Or from the beginning, did you already havethis idea of “Draw what you feel, draw what
feels right to you”?
TB (06:23):
Well, things have different purposes.
If you're a designer, and if you would liketo communicate with your clients, then your
drawing should be accurate, right?
As it is intended.
It cannot be super abstract.
OF (06:38):
Yeah.
TB (06:39):
Because it cannot be understood.
But if you're an artist, the expression ismore important.
It can be anything.
So you need to understand the concepts.
OF (06:48):
And out of the two - so the abstract artistic emotional side, versus the realistic design
communicate-what-you-mean side - which ofthose two do you prefer?
TB (06:59):
Both!
I like both of them.
Freedom as an artist is a nice thing.
But for me, it's a little bit chaotic sometimes.
I mean, I'm a fashion designer, so maybe 60/40,or like 70/30.
70 more into design, and 30 more into art.
OF (07:16):
This is it, isn't it?
Because fashion can be very avant-garde, youcan be very creative…
TB (07:20):
Yes.
OF (07:21):
…But then you have to be reasonable, people have to wear it.
TB (07:23):
Yeah.
OF (07:24):
So you mentioned in your brief introduction that you used to actually have a fashion brand
yourself, and then it didn't work out.
In the U.S, the culture is ‘fail quickly,fail often, keep failing, one day you’ll
make it.’
I sense that in China if you fail, actuallyit's a little bit tough on you and your family
and your reputation.
TB (07:42):
Yeah.
OF (07:43):
How was it in Mongolia?
Is the culture more like the U.S. or morelike China?
TB (07:47):
It's very mixed.
We have freedom and we accept failures.
But at the same time, we have this cultureof respecting - or living together with - the
families.
Family-oriented.
OF (07:58):
Right.
Well, why don't we jump into this topic.
Because this is where I'm going to ask youto represent your entire culture…
TB (08:06):
Oh god.
OF (08:07):
…In a way that is completely unfair.
But before I do so, there is a recording Iwant to play for you, which is our mutual
friend DJ BO…
TB (08:16):
Oh yeah.
OF (08:17):
…When he introduced you to this project.
[Start of Audio Clip]‘DJ BO’: I really love the Mongolian community.
And I find that - in China, especially - there’sa lot of confusion about who they are.
They have their own culture and stuff.
And there's a very great designer named Ruby,who does some very interesting work.
And I think it's important for that communityto be recognised as part of the Mosaic of
(08:40):
China.
So I would recommend Ruby.
[End of Audio Clip]TB: Wow.
Thank you so much.
And he calls you ‘Ruby' by your English name.
TB (08:47):
Yeah.
‘Ruby’ is a funny story.
OF (08:49):
Oh, go on.
TB (08:50):
My son used to call me Ruby.
Like, he used to watch a cartoon where oneof the characters was named Ruby.
A pink raccoon.
OF (08:58):
Oh, I'm gonna have to ask you to research this.
TB (09:00):
OK.
OF (09:01):
I want to see this pink Ruby.
Because many people, they don't even choosetheir English name.
They get given that English name by a teacher,right?
TB (09:06):
Right.
OF (09:07):
So I'm glad that yours has a more personal story.
Speaking of people with unusual names, DJBO…
TB (09:14):
Yeah.
OF (09:15):
How did you meet DJ BO?
TB (09:17):
Oh DJ BO is my partner's friend.
OF (09:21):
Ah.
TB (09:22):
And when we were together here before the pandemic happened, we met DJ BO in Shanghai.
OF (09:28):
There you go.
And of course, he has this insider/outsiderperspective, because he was a foreigner in
Mongolia.
That's why it's nice to also hear the Mongolianperspective of your own country.
Because you've been there most of your life,right?
How long have you actually been in China now?
TB (09:42):
It’s my third year.
OF (09:44):
OK.
So relatively short.
TB (09:46):
Yeah.
OF (09:47):
So we know where Mongolia is, it’s between Russia and China.
TB (09:50):
Correct.
The funny thing is, China has a Mongolianpart, and Russia has a Mongolian part.
And we are not Chinese or Russian.
So that's the thing.
OF (10:00):
Yeah.
TB (10:01):
And at the same time, right now, we have around eight different ethnic groups in Mongolia.
OF (10:05):
Right.
TB (10:06):
And we're still living the lifestyle which was inherited from Чингис хаан [Chinggis
Khaan].
Still herding animals, living in a nomadicstyle across the four seasons.
And in each season they move around.
That is also considered a very sustainablelifestyle, that we're not ruining the ecosystem.
Mongolians are very straightforward, goodhospitality.
OF (10:28):
Right.
TB (10:29):
And I'm quite proud of being Mongolian.
I mean, we've been through a lot since we’rejust a small population situated between Russia
and China.
And our whole economy is based on these twoborders.
OF (10:41):
Yes.
TB (10:42):
The borders are like in a completely closed for almost two years.
OF (10:46):
Yeah.
TB (10:47):
Maybe just once or twice, it opened for just a few days, or maybe one day.
OF (10:52):
Yeah.
TB (10:53):
So it's been very tough for Mongolians.
OF (10:57):
Interesting, yeah.
So that makes you sort of dependent.
TB (11:01):
Very dependent.
OF (11:02):
Yeah.
Which is funny, because it's just the industrialisation.
We’re now almost going full-circle, andwe're trying to do things that are more sustainable,
that are more true to how humans should existon the planet.
The way that Mongolia lives on the land.
I wonder if that will become more importantagain in the future.
Maybe we'll start to need to copy you, ratherthan you being dependent on other countries.
TB (11:24):
Exactly.
We have a lot of value, and we’re stillkeeping that value for a long time.
OF (11:28):
It's unique, you know.
And I went there, 22 years ago, for six days.
I still remember it.
There was such a blanket of stars in the sky.
There was complete silence.
And I remember, I couldn't sleep.
I couldn't sleep, because it was so quiet.
My brain couldn't understand what the hellwas going on.
TB (11:47):
Yeah, it is.
I missed that.
OF (11:50):
It's hard to find that in China, right?
TB (11:52):
That’s true.
OF (11:53):
And the look of the people.
So you were saying that it's not just onerace in Mongolia, right?
How would you describe it?
TB (12:00):
I speak general Mongolian as a Халх [Khalkha] Mongolian.
The Халх [Khalkha] is the ethnical group.
OF (12:06):
H-A-L?
TB (12:07):
No, K-H-A-L-K-H-A.
OF (12:09):
Халх [Khalkha].
TB (12:11):
Mmm.
And then we have different ethnical groups,who have different religions, they talk differently,
I can barely understand them if they’retalking.
OF (12:21):
Right.
TB (12:22):
They look a little bit different from each other.
My mother’s side is from the west side,and they look Turkish or more European looking.
And my father's side is from the Gobi side,they look totally different.
And my father's mother's side is from theRussian side.
(12:45):
They don't look Russian, they completely thelook Asian.
Even compared to other ethnic groups, I wouldsay.
OF (12:51):
Interesting.
TB (12:52):
So they just look different to each other.
And even for Mongolian costumes, each ethnicalgroup has its own different look.
There are many different hats, gowns.
Like, it's just Mongolian diverse clothing.
OF (13:07):
Well since you do have a fashion background, were you inspired by that traditional side
or were you trying to be more international,more modern?
TB (13:15):
For my fashion designs, I was focusing on the usage of the materials.
Mixing up wool and cashmere, even silk.
And mixing up different cultural styles.
And my artistic intention was mixing up theman-made concept and the natural concept.
We're just part of nature, so we can be assustainable as possible, based on Mongolian
(13:41):
styles.
I was invited to design a collection for oneof the oldest fashion companies in Mongolia,
for their annual fashion show.
So my last collection was focusing on that.
OF (13:54):
Nice.
Well, we've talked about your family, andwe haven't gone into too much detail.
But you've mentioned your son before.
TB (14:01):
Yes.
OF (14:02):
But I know that you're here in China and you're not with your son, right?
TB (14:05):
Yeah I'm not with my son.
My son got diagnosed as autistic when he wasin Grade 3.
When you say something, they wouldn't respond.
As if they were like “No, I don't want todo it.”
He actually speaks a lot, he’s a very openperson.
His navigation skills are quite high, higherthan normal people I would say.
(14:29):
When he was just three or four years old,he could draw out exact accurate maps - which
features even the signs and the crossroads,rivers - from home to a shop, or school.
OF (14:43):
Yes.
TB (14:45):
So that was quite impressive.
OF (14:47):
Absolutely.
TB (14:48):
I was like “Wow!”
But the problem is, he doesn't actually communicate.
OF (14:53):
I see.
TB (14:54):
That’s the problem.
OF (14:55):
Yeah.
TB (14:56):
It’s just difficult.
OF (14:57):
Right, so you didn't feel comfortable to bring him to China…
TB (14:59):
Yes, I didn't know the environment, and the circumstances.
Like what everything would be like.
I actually decided to bring him after a year.
At the same time, the pandemic happened.
OF (15:11):
Oh, so that was when you were actually go to bring him down?
TB (15:14):
Yes.
So we were just so unlucky.
OF (15:18):
Where is he now, then?
TB (15:20):
He's in Mongolia with my family.
OF (15:22):
So you've now been separated from your son for so many months.
How long altogether?
TB (15:26):
Almost two years.
OF (15:28):
Yeah.
And I'm looking at the apple in front of me.
Do you think that this is now actually yourcalling?
Because you really fell into this profession.
But are you increasingly finding that actually- just like your parents, just like your grandparents
- this is kind of who you are?
TB (15:45):
I would say yes, definitely.
My philosophy of living is (15:48):
life shouldn't be depressing.
You shouldn't be stressed out, when you'redoing anything.
It's just makes my life more meaningful.
It just makes everything make sense.
OF (16:02):
Well, good luck.
TB (16:03):
Thank you, Oscar.
OF (16:04):
Thank you for everything you've shared about Mongolian culture.
I'm sure there was plenty we didn't cover.
But let's move on to Part 2.
TB (16:12):
Let's do it.
[Part 2]OF: OK, Part 2.
The 10 questions.
You know what we didn't cover?
I should say thank you to you for coming allthe way to Shanghai, because originally I
was supposed to come to you.
And you don't live in Shanghai, you live whereexactly?
So I live in 昆山 [Kūnshān], which is right in between Shanghai and 苏州 [Sūzhōu].
OF (16:36):
So it took you how long to get here by train?
TB (16:39):
Like, an hour and thirty minutes.
OF (16:41):
Right.
I'm annoyed because I wanted to come to you.
I have never been to 昆山 [Kūnshān], wehave to do that next time.
TB (16:47):
Yeah, let's do it next time.
It's shame that I couldn't invite you anymore.
The area that I'm living in right now is gettingstricter and stricter.
Like, the guards checking our green codesand the pass codes…
OF (16:58):
Yes.
TB (16:59):
…And it’s just a little bit convenient for us to bring you to my place.
OF (17:02):
Exactly.
TB (17:03):
Maybe next time.
OF (17:04):
Yes.
This is what happens during COVID here.
I hopefully will come and visit you in yourplace at some point.
But for now, thank you for coming.
OK, Question 1, which comes from ShanghaiDaily: What is your favourite China-related
fact?
TB (17:20):
One of the contemporary artists, you might know him, 艾未未 [Ài Wèiwèi]…
OF (17:25):
Ah yes.
TB (17:26):
Yeah, one of his impressive works ‘Sunflower Seeds’ is 100 million seeds.
Life-sized porcelain sunflower seeds.
And do you know how those were made?
OF (17:36):
No.
TB (17:37):
It was made by craftspeople over the course of over two and a half years.
OF (17:42):
Oh wow.
TB (17:43):
Yeah.
OF (17:44):
I’ve never seen it.
OK, I’ll..
TB (17:46):
It's like a magnificent work, I would say, of his.
OF (17:49):
That's really interesting, I will look it up.
And of course, 艾未未 [Ài Wèiwèi] ismost famous in China for doing the Beijing
Olympics building, right?
TB (17:57):
Yeah, yeah.
OF (17:58):
Question 2, which comes from Rosetta Stone: Do you have a favourite word or phrase in
Chinese?
TB (18:04):
Well, it's 哎哟 [Āiyō].
It's like “Oops” or like it's “Oh mygod,” or like…
OF (18:10):
Oh, you mean 哎哟 [Āiyō].
TB (18:11):
I don’t know ‘Haiyo’ or ‘Aiyo’.
OF (18:13):
Oh so you hear it as ‘Haiyo’.
TB (18:16):
Yeah.
I hear it ‘Haiyo’.
OF (18:18):
I know it as 哎哟 [Āiyō].
TB (18:20):
’Aiyo’, ‘Haiyo’…
It's just very Chinese, right?
I hear it a lot.
It's not a word.
What should I say?
Is it a word?
Or what is it?
OF (18:29):
It's a word, it's a sound, it's a feeling…
TB (18:30):
Exactly.
OF (18:31):
It's actually…
it's not the first time that that's been saidon the podcast.
TB (18:33):
Oh really?
OF (18:34):
There was a historical researcher called Yael Farjun from Israel in Season 01...
TB (18:39):
Oh I didn’t know that!
OF (18:40):
She said it for the same reason, just the sound.
And it's the rollercoaster, it goes from upto down.
You can say “哎哟 [Āiyō]!”, “哎哟[Āiyō]!”
TB (18:49):
Chinese language is something like the fluency between sounds going up and down,
so it's very Chinese.
OF (18:56):
Yeah.
TB (18:57):
哎哟 [Āiyō].
OF (18:58):
It's like “You wanna know about tones?
This one word can teach you.”
What about Mongolian, are there tones in Mongolian?
TB (19:05):
No.
OF (19:06):
Next question, which comes from naked Retreats
within China?
TB (19:12):
For scenic views I would say 张家界 [Zhāngjiājiè].
OF (19:15):
Ah, 张家界 [Zhāngjiājiè]?
TB (19:17):
Yes.
OF (19:18):
I haven't been.
TB (19:19):
Incredible.
You should.
The beautiful glass bridge, and all the nature.
And the scenic view is amazing.
OF (19:24):
Yeah.
TB (19:25):
You should go there.
OF (19:26):
Alright, it's on my list.
Although those glass bridges…
I get very scared about anything with a glassbridge.
TB (19:32):
It's not scary.
There’s nothing scary about the glass bridge,it’s so thick, it's just beautiful.
OF (19:36):
I don't believe you.
Next question (19:39):
If you left China, what would you miss the most and what would you miss
the least?
TB (19:45):
I would miss the early routines of China.
Their daily routine starts very early.
You can just start your work at six if youwant.
OF (19:55):
Wow.
TB (19:56):
And you can get the breakfasts from the street at six.
OF (19:59):
Hmm.
TB (20:00):
I like Chinese street breakfast.
OF (20:02):
Like 煎饼 [jiānbing], like 油条 [yóutiáo]?
TB (20:04):
Yeah!
Soups, like everything I can get from thestreet is very delicious.
I would definitely miss that.
OF (20:10):
Well said.
And then what would you miss the least?
TB (20:14):
Least I would miss… access to the global information on time.
It's just annoying.
OF (20:21):
Yeah.
Next question, is there anything that stillsurprises you about life in China?
TB (20:28):
The purchase level of every single person in China, especially during 11/11.
It's just full of packages, full of packagesevery day.
It feels like exceeding their need.
OF (20:42):
Yes.
Yeah, this is exactly opposite to the kindof Mongolian nomadic culture.
Where you just use that land for a small timethen you move on.
Everything is in perfect harmony.
It's like the opposite of how we should live,and yet it's so convenient at the same time.
TB (20:58):
Oh yeah, it is.
Yeah, I admit that is very convenient.
OF (21:01):
Yeah.
Next question, which…
It's from SmartShanghai, but of course foryou this might be more relevant talking about
昆山 [Kūnshān].
But where is your favourite place to go out,to eat, or drink, or hang out?
TB (21:15):
Small nice places like ‘Calita’ or ‘Emily’s’.
They’re in 昆山 [Kūnshān], if you gothere.
OF (21:21):
Nice.
TB (21:22):
And here in Shanghai, I went to that Mexican…
What was the name?
‘Pis….’
OF (21:28):
Pistolera.
TB (21:29):
Oh yeah yeah, Pistolera.
OF (21:32):
This is it actually, I can imagine when you live in 昆山 [Kūnshān], you get some
kind of variety of food.
Then you come to Shanghai, and you can getfood from all around the world, right?
TB (21:40):
Yeah, exactly.
OF (21:41):
What about Mongolian food?
Do you recommend any kind of Mongolian restaurant?
TB (21:45):
Waah.
I cannot recommend any to you!
OF (21:50):
Yeah.
What is the best or worst purchase you'vemade in China?
TB (21:54):
The books I purchased on Taobao maybe were good.
OF (21:58):
Do you have a worst purchase?
TB (22:00):
Yeah, I have.
I have a lot, actually.
Especially when I first came here.
I didn't know how to use Taobao and then didn'tknow the range of the prices actually influence
the quality, and so on.
So the worst purchase was, I ordered a coverfor the bedding, which looked very decent.
(22:22):
And the colour was beige.
But it ended up lemon yellow, and not evena bed cover.
Totally 100% polyester, which was for a sofa.
It’s just not the thing that I ordered.
OF (22:40):
I guess you don't have it anymore.
TB (22:41):
Yeah, I don't have it.
OF (22:43):
Did you even use it once?
TB (22:45):
No.
OF (22:46):
And next question, what is your favourite WeChat sticker?
TB (22:51):
The little raccoon.
The farting little raccoon.
OF (22:54):
Oh my god, is that what he's doing?
That is adorable and disgusting at the time.
TB (23:01):
Yeah I know.
I use that sticker a lot with my son.
OF (23:04):
Do you know what he's saying?
TB (23:06):
I can guess, it's just like ‘ignoring’.
OF (23:09):
Yes.
It's saying 懒得理你 [Lǎn dé lǐ nǐ]…
TB (23:13):
What is it?
OF (23:14):
…Which I think is “I'm too lazy to notice you.”
TB (23:18):
Oh, so it's exactly what I guessed.
OF (23:20):
I need someone to double check that, but that's how I interpret what that Chinese means.
TB (23:25):
OK.
OF (23:26):
In any case, it's a farting raccoon.
Next question, what is your go-to song tosing at KTV?
TB (23:35):
Ah, that's embarrassing.
Keane, ‘Somewhere Only We Know’.
OF (23:38):
Oh, ‘Somewhere Only We Know’, yeah.
TB (23:41):
Or maybe one of the Coldplay songs, I used to listen to them a lot.
OF (23:45):
This makes me ask you about singing in Mongolia, because there's that famous Mongolian
throat singing, right?
TB (23:52):
Yes, there is.
OF (23:53):
Can you do it?
TB (23:54):
No!
You need to practice a lot to make that sound.
OF (23:58):
Are there any KTV songs that include that kind of singing?
TB (24:01):
I don't think so.
OF (24:04):
No, right?
And finally - and this comes from JustPod,which is usually where I would record these
interviews at the studio, but today we'rein my home - what are who is your biggest
source of inspiration in China?
TB (24:18):
The one thing that crossed my mind is just Chinese people.
Like, I admire them.
They're super committed and consistent towhat they are doing.
And that creates China.
It’s impressive.
OF (24:32):
Excellent.
Tsogi, thank you so much.
TB (24:35):
Thank you so much for having me, Oscar.
OF (24:38):
My pleasure.
You still need to barbecue some Mongolianlamb for me next time.
TB (24:42):
Yeah, I owe you.
OF (24:44):
In the meantime, I would ask you, out of everyone you know in China, who would you
recommend that I interview in the next seasonof Mosaic of China?
TB (24:53):
One of my friends’ husband, Stefan Ulrich…
OF (24:57):
OK.
TB (24:58):
…Who works in the UX team of Bosch in Shanghai.
OF (25:02):
The UX team, so that's ‘User Experience’?
TB (25:06):
Yes.
OF (25:07):
Oh, that's interesting.
Yeah, this is where - when you talk aboutdesign - the user experience is the most practical
side of design, right?
TB (25:14):
It is, isn’t it.
OF (25:16):
Excellent.
I appreciate that.
And if there was one question that you wouldask Stefan, what question would you ask him?
TB (25:23):
How would you describe Mongolians, as a German who has a Mongolian wife?
OF (25:31):
There you go.
So again, the Mongolian connection will continue.
Thank you so much lucky, Tsogi.
TB (25:38):
It was really nice talking with you.
[Outro]OF: Tsogi mentioned 11/11, which is the big
day of online shopping every year on November11th in China.
Well we’ve just had it, so right now manyof us here will be wading through piles of
packages to get through the entrances to ourbuildings.
(25:58):
As with every year, I personally ordered preciselynothing, which is more out of sheer laziness
rather than on any grounds of sustainabilityor as a protest against over-consumerism.
But in any case, from now on every November11th I’m going to proclaim that I’m ‘going
Mongolian’.
Which is a totally inaccurate and reductivething to say, but when has that ever stopped
(26:21):
me before?
If you’re wondering why we didn’t takemore time to discuss other aspects of Mongolian
culture, there are two reasons for that.
The first one is that this podcast is called‘Mosaic of China,’ so it wouldn’t exactly
be on brand to spend too long talking aboutthe separate country of Mongolia.
And the second reason is that actually wedid discuss more about Mongolia - specifically
(26:46):
the differences between the country of Mongoliaand the Chinese province of 内蒙古 [Nèiménggǔ],
or ‘Inner Mongolia’ - in the PREMIUM versionof the show.
So if you want to hear more, please checkout the Mosaic of China website for how you
can subscribe.
Here are a few clips from that version oftoday’s show:
[Clip 1]TB: Many people told me “How come you don't
(27:08):
understand Chinese?”
[Clip 2]TB: We used to have only the vertical Mongolian
script until we changed to Cyrillics.
[Clip 3]OF: At that time there would be a direct flight,
right?
Between Shanghai and Улаанбаатар[Ulaanbaatar]?
Sure.
It was so easy.
Two hours and something.
Less than three hours.
[Clip 4]TB: They’ve been taught at their high schools
(27:29):
that Mongolia is part of China.
OF (27:30):
Oh!
OK.
[Clip 5]TB: And even though we use Russian Cyrillics,
Russians wouldn't understand our Cyrillics.
Exactly.
[End of Audio Clips]
Check out social media for all the extra imagesfrom today’s show.
There’s Tsogi’s favourite WeChat sticker,there are some photos from her days as a fashion
designer in Mongolia, and a bunch of otherstoo.
(27:54):
And in researching the pink raccoon calledRuby, from where her son gave her the English
name, Tsogi discovered that it’s from theKorean animated series called 'Pororo the
Little Penguin', and that actually it’snot a raccoon called Ruby, it’s a beaver
called Loopy.
Which in my eyes makes her story all the moreadorable.
(28:15):
The big update since we recorded our episodeis that Tsogi is no longer living in 昆山
[Kūnshān], she is now in 重庆 [Chóngqìng.
And also her family finally got their visasso her son should be coming to live with her
in China very soon.
Speaking of Tsogi’s son, to hear more onthe topic of autism - specifically, autism
in the workplace in China - be sure to checkout the episode with the diversity advocate
(28:39):
Sebastien Denes from Season 01 Episode 11.
As for other connections with Tsogi, there’sthe artist Nini Sum from Season 01 Episode
16, the fashion designer Octo Cheung fromSeason 01 Episode 30, and the teacher/student
coach Seth Harvey from Season 02 Episode 19.
(29:01):
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artworkby Denny Newell.
Stick around for a couple of catch-ups fromprevious seasons.
Firstly the person who referred Tsogi, whichwas DJ BO from Season 02 Episode 23.
And secondly, the person who referred DJ BO,which was Abe Deyo from Season 01 Episode
27.
(29:21):
And we’ll be back with another episode nextweek.
[Catch-Up Interview 1]BO: Hey Oscar.
Hi DJ BO.
BO (29:32):
How are you doing?
OF (29:36):
I'm doing well.
BO (29:40):
Lots of changes.
Lots of different stuff has happened.
OF (29:42):
Yeah.
BO (29:43):
I’ve got a bunch of tattoos now that weren't there before.
OF (29:46):
What?
BO (29:47):
I’ve even retired the name ‘DJ B-O’.
OF (29:49):
What the ****? BO
First of all, let me say this.
I love the idea of having different namesfor different things.
You get a chance to approach yourself viathe eyes of other people.
And so my name still looks the same, I justgo by ‘DJ BO’ now.
DJ BO.
(30:09):
And this was part of some kind of renaissancefor you?
You mentioned there were new tattoos, what’sgoing on?
BO (30:14):
Do you remember the recording date, for the first time?
OF (30:17):
I can check.
I don't believe you had tattoos at that time.
BO (30:20):
I got my first tattoo in January 2021.
I had a DJ gig and 哈尔滨 [Hā’ěrbīn].
And then all the gigs got cancelled in 哈尔滨[Hā’ěrbīn].
But I don't like to not follow through.
I was able to meet up with a guy named Sion.
We met at a Russian restaurant, which is whatyou do in 哈尔滨 [Hā’ěrbīn].
He was like “Hey, so you're here, and there'sreally nothing happening with me and stuff,
(30:42):
do you want me to give you a tattoo?”
It was a unique opportunity, and I alwayslean towards saying “Yes” anyway, for
everything.
What I realised was, this almost makes memore responsible for my body.
You have something valuable here, don’t**** it up too much.
OF (30:57):
Don’t mess up the canvas.
BO (30:59):
Yeah, exactly.
OF (31:00):
Well, what does the future hold for you right now?
BO (31:02):
I have no idea.
Who knows?
The future ain’t what it used to be, Oscar.
OF (31:06):
Yeah!
Well said.
BO (31:08):
I don't know.
I’m still doing a Master's degree, but it'skind of on hold.
OF (31:11):
Oh.
BO (31:12):
I don't know where things are heading, I don't know what opportunities are here.
OF (31:15):
Yeah.
BO (31:16):
I don't know if I want to let things cool down here in Shanghai.
So, leave and come back.
You know, it's not going to be what it wasbefore.
But wherever it's going to be, give it a chanceto least get its footing a bit here.
OF (31:28):
Yeah.
BO (31:29):
Or try to finish what I want to do, as quickly as possible.
OF (31:33):
Yeah.
BO (31:34):
So I'm not quite sure.
I'm really at an uncertain point.
OF (31:39):
Yeah.
I'm going to obviously be releasing your catch-upat the back of my interview with Tsogi, who
you recommended…
BO (31:46):
Oh, yeah!
OF (31:47):
…For Season 03.
BO (31:48):
Yeah.
OF (31:49):
So have you been in touch with her?
BO (31:50):
Honestly, I haven’t.
Partially because she's not here, into Shanghai.
OF (31:55):
Yes.
BO (31:56):
But also, even more than that, she would do some artwork for Mongolian events that
I was doing.
Well I haven’t been doing any of that.
OF (32:03):
Yeah.
BO (32:04):
So we just weren’t able to play a little catch up with that.
OF (32:08):
I think what it is, is everyone has a lot going on in their mind.
And for you and someone to connect, you bothhave to be in that right state, at the right
place, at the right time.
And that's what's hard actually, especiallywhen you don't live in the same city.
So I have many many friends like that, whoI also haven't connected with.
It's a shame, and I hope that once bordersdo finally dissolve again, we can reconnect
(32:32):
with people in the same way we used to.
Which also makes me ask you about Abe Deyo…
BO (32:36):
Oh.
OF (32:37):
…The person who introduced you.
How about Abe from Season 01?
Same story?
BO (32:41):
I haven't spoken to Abe in a while.
But Abe is a fellow traveller, a peripatetic.
And those people have a special sort of relationship,where we understand that we're criss-crossing
paths.
And it could be a week, it could be years,and we can just look at each other in the
eye and it's fine.
(33:02):
So I don't even have to worry about him inthat regard.
OF (33:05):
I know what you mean.
BO (33:06):
Yeah.
OF (33:07):
The way I've heard it mentioned - and I've adopted it for myself - is like an elastic
band.
And friendships have a different elasticity.
And some people, you know if you've stretchedit beyond capacity then it will break.
And there are some people - like you and Abe- where you can stretch that band indefinitely.
BO (33:22):
Although I would love to stretch that rubber band and snap it back on his skin and
make him say “Ouch” every once in a while.
OF (33:28):
Well, thank you so much DJ BO.
I have to get used to calling you that.
BO (33:32):
You call me whatever you want, Oscar.
Thanks for having me!
OF (33:36):
Thank you.
[Catch-Up Interview 2]OF: Hello Abe.
AD (33:39):
Hello Oscar, it’s been a while.
OF (33:41):
It has been a while.
And let me introduce you to people who maynot have heard our original episode.
Back then - and that was in Season 01 - youwere a China tour manager and promoter for
international indie bands.
And then the second time we caught up, youwere taking some time out on Lamma Island
(34:02):
in Hong Kong.
Since back then, live shows had basicallystopped around the world at that point.
So what is your situation today?
AD (34:09):
Live music has come back a little bit.
Me in the meantime, I started an MBA.
And then as of June, I rejoined Live Nation.
OF (34:19):
Oh goodness!
AD (34:20):
Yeah, so back with Live Nation.
And now I'm not working with the emergingartists, but the touring team.
OF (34:27):
OK.
When we talked last, I think you were sayingabout how Live Nation at that point had grown
to the extent that it was quite unsustainable.
Do you see a pared-down version to what itwas before?
AD (34:40):
It is a large corporation.
They have pared down some of the emergingmarkets, focusing on ones with more potential
or ones that are less risky, which I thinkwas a smart idea.
OF (34:53):
And with your background, are you keeping your hand in China?
AD (34:57):
Someone else is doing it.
Things change so fast.
And to be fair, for the few years that I wasout of Live Nation, I wasn't really paying
attention to much.
Hibernation, so…
OF (35:08):
Oh, I totally get it.
In fact, I do remember when we had our originalinterview back in Season 01, I did sense that
there was a bit of weariness in the way thatwe talked about how you had been to the same
places, with so many different bands, on somany different tours.
And I'm wondering if that's part of it.
Or actually, now that you haven't done itfor so many years, do you miss that part?
AD (35:28):
I miss it a little bit.
I think I was travelling a little too much.
That wore on me after a while, you know, whenyou take 100 flights in one year.
OF (35:37):
Yes.
AD (35:38):
It’s a little too much.
With my new role, it should be better, centredon a specific market.
OF (35:44):
Got it.
Well, switching over to the second thing yousaid, which was you're doing your MBA.
How did you find going back into that kindof classroom situation?
AD (35:53):
It was a big change.
It’s been a very long time since I had todo any academic work.
A lot of lectures are online, but then it'scentres around workshops, which is nice.
We're on the same level.
OF (36:09):
You're all scratching our heads wondering “What the hell, how did I do this before?”
AD (36:13):
Oh yeah, that was a lot of that.
How to do like Harvard citations and stufflike that.
OF (36:19):
Oh god, citations.
Anything which involves a footnote, it’slike a nightmare.
AD (36:23):
Yeah, yeah.
You never have to do that in the businessworld.
OF (36:28):
No, you can just spout off anything, and just say “Citation
AD (36:32):
Yeah.
OF (36:33):
You introduced DJ BO to the podcast in Season 02.
AD (36:38):
Yeah.
OF (36:39):
Are you in touch with DJ BO?
I know it's tough.
AD (36:41):
We message each other occasionally.
OF (36:44):
I should say that he's renamed himself now.
So you don't say ‘DJ B-O’ anymore, yousay ‘DJ BO’.
AD (36:50):
Has he?
OF (36:51):
Yeah.
AD (36:52):
You see, because when we message each other, it'd be kind of hard to message that
out.
OF (36:57):
It's still spelt the same.
AD (36:58):
Yeah, so I did not know he's now ‘DJ BO’.
OF (37:01):
You heard it here first.
AD (37:03):
Yeah, that’s good to hear.
OF (37:04):
And I will be including an update alongside the episode in Season 03, which was DJ BO's
recommendation, a Mongolian teacher and artistcalled Tsogi.
Do you actually know this person?
AD (37:17):
I don’t, I don't know.
I'll be looking forward to that.
OF (37:20):
Well, this is how it works now.
So it'll be like weird Russian doll to seeexactly how far the connections end up.
Each time, I hope there's a good excuse forme to give you a call.
AD (37:30):
Oh yeah, for sure.
See how far it goes, before it gets all theway back to me, right?
OF (37:35):
Yes.
AD (37:36):
Season 100.
That might be a little far…
OF (37:39):
Oh dear.
Er, no.
I can categorically say that now (37:41):
No, there will not be that many.
Well, thank you so much Abe, always good tospeak to you.
And I hope that the next time we'll be onthe beach on Lamma together.
I think I said that last time, but fingerscrossed for the future.
AD (37:55):
Yeah, hopefully we're getting closer to that date.
OF (37:57):
Thanks man, all the best.
AD (37:59):
All right.
Good talking to you.
[Trailer]OF: I couldn’t sleep!
My brain couldn't understand what the hellwas going on.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina.
I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
Some episodes are hard to compartmentalise,and today’s is one of them.
(00:22):
We talk about teaching and art and fashionand entrepreneurism and Mongolia and sustainability
and family…
Honestly it’s a bit all over the place andI can’t really summarise it in this intro.
But in these episodes where we don’t focusin on just one key aspect of someone’s life,
that’s what makes the conversation muchmore ‘natural’.
(00:43):
It’s the kind of conversation that you canimagine having over a coffee when you meet
someone new.
And yet it’s also deeper than that, so Ihope that you enjoy the ground that we cover
today.
[Part 1]OF: Thank you so much for coming.
TB (00:58):
Oh, thank you so much for inviting me.
OF (01:00):
The first challenge I have is in saying your name.
Because there are some people who have namesthat I can't get my tongue around.
And you are definitely one of those people.
So let's start by having you say your fullname.
TB (01:14):
Sure.
I heard that a lot, since it is complicatedto pronounce.
So my full name is Цогтгэрэл [Tsogtgerel].
OF (01:21):
Say it again, but slowly.
Like, this is your first name only, right?
TB (01:24):
It’s just my first name only.
Цогтгэрэл [Tsogtgerel].
OF (01:27):
Цогтгэрэл [Tsogtgerel].
TB (01:28):
Yeah.
Since it's very hard to pronounce, I havea short name.
You can use Tsogi.
OF (01:33):
Perfect.
TB (01:34):
Or my English name, Ruby.
OF (01:36):
Thank you.
I did know that because since I've known you,I've been calling you Tsogi.
TB (01:39):
Yeah Tsogi’s definitely fine.
OF (01:41):
It's a very cute name, actually.
TB (01:43):
Oh, it is?
Thank you.
OF (01:45):
Yeah.
TB (01:46):
Like, the Mongolian language is quite a harsh language.
We have a lot of “rrrrr” sounds.
OF (01:50):
Yes.
And then what's your family name?
TB (01:52):
My family name is Бумэрдэнэ [Bumerdene].
OF (01:54):
Бумэрдэнэ [Bumerdene].
TB (01:55):
Yeah.
OF (01:56):
Цогтгэрэл [Tsogtgerel] Бумэрдэнэ [Bumerdene].
TB (01:57):
Right.
OF (01:58):
Wow.
TB (01:59):
Correct.
OF (02:00):
OK, I've said it once.
I probably will never say it again.
I'm gonna call you to Tsogi.
And you said that actually you also have anEnglish name Ruby.
But which do you prefer, do you prefer toTsogi or Ruby?
TB (02:08):
Oh, Tsogi is fine.
OF (02:10):
Yeah, good.
TB (02:11):
It’s natural.
OF (02:12):
Well now that I've said your name, we know a little bit about you already.
But the first question I would ask - to findout more - is “What object did you bring
that in some way defines your story here inChina?”
TB (02:25):
So it took me quite a long time to think of like what object might represent my life
in China.
It was a very last-minute decision, I broughtan apple.
There it is.
OF (02:39):
There it is.
TB (02:40):
A green apple.
I'm a teacher here in China.
OF (02:43):
Aha.
TB (02:44):
So I teach Visual Art, and Design & Technology.
The two subjects at the same time.
OF (02:48):
Visual Art, and then Design & Technology.
TB (02:50):
Yes.
OF (02:51):
I see.
TB (02:52):
Actually I’m a designer.
Before I became a teacher, I was a fashiondesigner.
I even started my own fashion brand.
And at the time, I was just a little bit lackingin experience, since I had just graduating
from university.
And I was almost like a bankrupt.
OF (03:11):
Oh gosh.
TB (03:12):
Yeah.
And I had to find a different job.
Teaching (03:16):
I was not into it.
But my family has a teaching background.
I mean, both parents are professors, and mygrandparents are professors at the university,
like they're all teachers.
OF (03:27):
Wow.
TB (03:28):
So I just thought “I'll just try it out.
I'll go get interviewed.”
And I got interviewed by the director.
And then they just offered me “Why don'tyou get observed?
You can have a trial lesson.
Just choose a topic that you would like toteach, and then come tomorrow morning.”
I didn't have any plan, any experience, Ihad no idea what to teach, and no idea whom
(03:49):
to teach.
So I just picked like Grade 11 at the time.
OF (03:52):
Which is what?
How old are the children in Grade 11?
TB (03:55):
15-16.
OF (03:56):
Uh huh.
And I'm still trying to work out…
TB (03:59):
…Why the apple?
OF (04:01):
Yes!
TB (04:02):
It will come out.
So here's the thing.
The next morning, I went to the school, Ididn't prepare anything, I couldn't think
of anything.
I just grabbed some pencils and papers.
My mom gave me an apple in the morning.
And I just needed an object, to teach studentsabout how to draw.
(04:24):
As an example, like how to draw using differentlines.
I drew the apple, because I only had an applein my bag.
OF (04:30):
Oh how funny.
TB (04:31):
And then I asked the students to tell me the description of an apple.
And here they started with very basic descriptionsof an apple.
Like “Green” and “Soft.”
And then I tried to expand their thinkingof an apple.
“How about where it has grown?”
Or "How did it come here?
How does it smell?
(04:52):
And so on.
How their imagination can go beyond the apple.
And then I just asked them “OK now let'ssay how Picasso or Dali would see an apple.”
OF (05:02):
Aha.
TB (05:03):
And then they saw an apple from very different perspectives.
OF (05:06):
Mmm.
TB (05:07):
It was just an apple.
But the way we see things actually definesthat thing.
And how we see things is more important.
I didn't plan that speech or that processactually, it was just what was on my mind
at the time.
I just created an engagement between me andthe students.
OF (05:26):
Yeah.
TB (05:27):
And I actually like felt “Oh wow!
I’m good at it!”
And it was so wonderful.
Ever since that time, teaching has felt moreimportant and more meaningful.
Being a teacher is influencing those who willbe living in the future.
OF (05:43):
Absolutely.
And it's a job which doesn't get very wellrecognised often.
TB (05:48):
Yeah.
OF (05:49):
But it's nice to have this excuse to talk to you, especially because you're teaching
art and design.
And that, for me, was actually the hardesttopic.
TB (05:58):
Oh.
OF (05:59):
Because I'm a terrible drawer.
And the problem I think I had with the wayI was taught was that my teacher didn't say
“Oh, it's all about how you feel.”
Actually when I was learning art, it was like“No, no.
Draw it correctly.”
TB (06:12):
Yeah.
OF (06:13):
“Draw that apple.”
TB (06:14):
That’s how we were all taught.
OF (06:15):
Right?
So do you feel pressure to also teach likethat?
Or from the beginning, did you already havethis idea of “Draw what you feel, draw what
feels right to you”?
TB (06:23):
Well, things have different purposes.
If you're a designer, and if you would liketo communicate with your clients, then your
drawing should be accurate, right?
As it is intended.
It cannot be super abstract.
OF (06:38):
Yeah.
TB (06:39):
Because it cannot be understood.
But if you're an artist, the expression ismore important.
It can be anything.
So you need to understand the concepts.
OF (06:48):
And out of the two - so the abstract artistic emotional side, versus the realistic design
communicate-what-you-mean side - which ofthose two do you prefer?
TB (06:59):
Both!
I like both of them.
Freedom as an artist is a nice thing.
But for me, it's a little bit chaotic sometimes.
I mean, I'm a fashion designer, so maybe 60/40,or like 70/30.
70 more into design, and 30 more into art.
OF (07:16):
This is it, isn't it?
Because fashion can be very avant-garde, youcan be very creative…
TB (07:20):
Yes.
OF (07:21):
…But then you have to be reasonable, people have to wear it.
TB (07:23):
Yeah.
OF (07:24):
So you mentioned in your brief introduction that you used to actually have a fashion brand
yourself, and then it didn't work out.
In the U.S, the culture is ‘fail quickly,fail often, keep failing, one day you’ll
make it.’
I sense that in China if you fail, actuallyit's a little bit tough on you and your family
and your reputation.
TB (07:42):
Yeah.
OF (07:43):
How was it in Mongolia?
Is the culture more like the U.S. or morelike China?
TB (07:47):
It's very mixed.
We have freedom and we accept failures.
But at the same time, we have this cultureof respecting - or living together with - the
families.
Family-oriented.
OF (07:58):
Right.
Well, why don't we jump into this topic.
Because this is where I'm going to ask youto represent your entire culture…
TB (08:06):
Oh god.
OF (08:07):
…In a way that is completely unfair.
But before I do so, there is a recording Iwant to play for you, which is our mutual
friend DJ BO…
TB (08:16):
Oh yeah.
OF (08:17):
…When he introduced you to this project.
[Start of Audio Clip]‘DJ BO’: I really love the Mongolian community.
And I find that - in China, especially - there’sa lot of confusion about who they are.
They have their own culture and stuff.
And there's a very great designer named Ruby,who does some very interesting work.
And I think it's important for that communityto be recognised as part of the Mosaic of
(08:40):
China.
So I would recommend Ruby.
[End of Audio Clip]TB: Wow.
Thank you so much.
And he calls you ‘Ruby' by your English name.
TB (08:47):
Yeah.
‘Ruby’ is a funny story.
OF (08:49):
Oh, go on.
TB (08:50):
My son used to call me Ruby.
Like, he used to watch a cartoon where oneof the characters was named Ruby.
A pink raccoon.
OF (08:58):
Oh, I'm gonna have to ask you to research this.
TB (09:00):
OK.
OF (09:01):
I want to see this pink Ruby.
Because many people, they don't even choosetheir English name.
They get given that English name by a teacher,right?
TB (09:06):
Right.
OF (09:07):
So I'm glad that yours has a more personal story.
Speaking of people with unusual names, DJBO…
TB (09:14):
Yeah.
OF (09:15):
How did you meet DJ BO?
TB (09:17):
Oh DJ BO is my partner's friend.
OF (09:21):
Ah.
TB (09:22):
And when we were together here before the pandemic happened, we met DJ BO in Shanghai.
OF (09:28):
There you go.
And of course, he has this insider/outsiderperspective, because he was a foreigner in
Mongolia.
That's why it's nice to also hear the Mongolianperspective of your own country.
Because you've been there most of your life,right?
How long have you actually been in China now?
TB (09:42):
It’s my third year.
OF (09:44):
OK.
So relatively short.
TB (09:46):
Yeah.
OF (09:47):
So we know where Mongolia is, it’s between Russia and China.
TB (09:50):
Correct.
The funny thing is, China has a Mongolianpart, and Russia has a Mongolian part.
And we are not Chinese or Russian.
So that's the thing.
OF (10:00):
Yeah.
TB (10:01):
And at the same time, right now, we have around eight different ethnic groups in Mongolia.
OF (10:05):
Right.
TB (10:06):
And we're still living the lifestyle which was inherited from Чингис хаан [Chinggis
Khaan].
Still herding animals, living in a nomadicstyle across the four seasons.
And in each season they move around.
That is also considered a very sustainablelifestyle, that we're not ruining the ecosystem.
Mongolians are very straightforward, goodhospitality.
OF (10:28):
Right.
TB (10:29):
And I'm quite proud of being Mongolian.
I mean, we've been through a lot since we’rejust a small population situated between Russia
and China.
And our whole economy is based on these twoborders.
OF (10:41):
Yes.
TB (10:42):
The borders are like in a completely closed for almost two years.
OF (10:46):
Yeah.
TB (10:47):
Maybe just once or twice, it opened for just a few days, or maybe one day.
OF (10:52):
Yeah.
TB (10:53):
So it's been very tough for Mongolians.
OF (10:57):
Interesting, yeah.
So that makes you sort of dependent.
TB (11:01):
Very dependent.
OF (11:02):
Yeah.
Which is funny, because it's just the industrialisation.
We’re now almost going full-circle, andwe're trying to do things that are more sustainable,
that are more true to how humans should existon the planet.
The way that Mongolia lives on the land.
I wonder if that will become more importantagain in the future.
Maybe we'll start to need to copy you, ratherthan you being dependent on other countries.
TB (11:24):
Exactly.
We have a lot of value, and we’re stillkeeping that value for a long time.
OF (11:28):
It's unique, you know.
And I went there, 22 years ago, for six days.
I still remember it.
There was such a blanket of stars in the sky.
There was complete silence.
And I remember, I couldn't sleep.
I couldn't sleep, because it was so quiet.
My brain couldn't understand what the hellwas going on.
TB (11:47):
Yeah, it is.
I missed that.
OF (11:50):
It's hard to find that in China, right?
TB (11:52):
That’s true.
OF (11:53):
And the look of the people.
So you were saying that it's not just onerace in Mongolia, right?
How would you describe it?
TB (12:00):
I speak general Mongolian as a Халх [Khalkha] Mongolian.
The Халх [Khalkha] is the ethnical group.
OF (12:06):
H-A-L?
TB (12:07):
No, K-H-A-L-K-H-A.
OF (12:09):
Халх [Khalkha].
TB (12:11):
Mmm.
And then we have different ethnical groups,who have different religions, they talk differently,
I can barely understand them if they’retalking.
OF (12:21):
Right.
TB (12:22):
They look a little bit different from each other.
My mother’s side is from the west side,and they look Turkish or more European looking.
And my father's side is from the Gobi side,they look totally different.
And my father's mother's side is from theRussian side.
(12:45):
They don't look Russian, they completely thelook Asian.
Even compared to other ethnic groups, I wouldsay.
OF (12:51):
Interesting.
TB (12:52):
So they just look different to each other.
And even for Mongolian costumes, each ethnicalgroup has its own different look.
There are many different hats, gowns.
Like, it's just Mongolian diverse clothing.
OF (13:07):
Well since you do have a fashion background, were you inspired by that traditional side
or were you trying to be more international,more modern?
TB (13:15):
For my fashion designs, I was focusing on the usage of the materials.
Mixing up wool and cashmere, even silk.
And mixing up different cultural styles.
And my artistic intention was mixing up theman-made concept and the natural concept.
We're just part of nature, so we can be assustainable as possible, based on Mongolian
(13:41):
styles.
I was invited to design a collection for oneof the oldest fashion companies in Mongolia,
for their annual fashion show.
So my last collection was focusing on that.
OF (13:54):
Nice.
Well, we've talked about your family, andwe haven't gone into too much detail.
But you've mentioned your son before.
TB (14:01):
Yes.
OF (14:02):
But I know that you're here in China and you're not with your son, right?
TB (14:05):
Yeah I'm not with my son.
My son got diagnosed as autistic when he wasin Grade 3.
When you say something, they wouldn't respond.
As if they were like “No, I don't want todo it.”
He actually speaks a lot, he’s a very openperson.
His navigation skills are quite high, higherthan normal people I would say.
(14:29):
When he was just three or four years old,he could draw out exact accurate maps - which
features even the signs and the crossroads,rivers - from home to a shop, or school.
OF (14:43):
Yes.
TB (14:45):
So that was quite impressive.
OF (14:47):
Absolutely.
TB (14:48):
I was like “Wow!”
But the problem is, he doesn't actually communicate.
OF (14:53):
I see.
TB (14:54):
That’s the problem.
OF (14:55):
Yeah.
TB (14:56):
It’s just difficult.
OF (14:57):
Right, so you didn't feel comfortable to bring him to China…
TB (14:59):
Yes, I didn't know the environment, and the circumstances.
Like what everything would be like.
I actually decided to bring him after a year.
At the same time, the pandemic happened.
OF (15:11):
Oh, so that was when you were actually go to bring him down?
TB (15:14):
Yes.
So we were just so unlucky.
OF (15:18):
Where is he now, then?
TB (15:20):
He's in Mongolia with my family.
OF (15:22):
So you've now been separated from your son for so many months.
How long altogether?
TB (15:26):
Almost two years.
OF (15:28):
Yeah.
And I'm looking at the apple in front of me.
Do you think that this is now actually yourcalling?
Because you really fell into this profession.
But are you increasingly finding that actually- just like your parents, just like your grandparents
- this is kind of who you are?
TB (15:45):
I would say yes, definitely.
My philosophy of living is (15:48):
life shouldn't be depressing.
You shouldn't be stressed out, when you'redoing anything.
It's just makes my life more meaningful.
It just makes everything make sense.
OF (16:02):
Well, good luck.
TB (16:03):
Thank you, Oscar.
OF (16:04):
Thank you for everything you've shared about Mongolian culture.
I'm sure there was plenty we didn't cover.
But let's move on to Part 2.
TB (16:12):
Let's do it.
[Part 2]OF: OK, Part 2.
The 10 questions.
You know what we didn't cover?
I should say thank you to you for coming allthe way to Shanghai, because originally I
was supposed to come to you.
And you don't live in Shanghai, you live whereexactly?
So I live in 昆山 [Kūnshān], which is right in between Shanghai and 苏州 [Sūzhōu].
OF (16:36):
So it took you how long to get here by train?
TB (16:39):
Like, an hour and thirty minutes.
OF (16:41):
Right.
I'm annoyed because I wanted to come to you.
I have never been to 昆山 [Kūnshān], wehave to do that next time.
TB (16:47):
Yeah, let's do it next time.
It's shame that I couldn't invite you anymore.
The area that I'm living in right now is gettingstricter and stricter.
Like, the guards checking our green codesand the pass codes…
OF (16:58):
Yes.
TB (16:59):
…And it’s just a little bit convenient for us to bring you to my place.
OF (17:02):
Exactly.
TB (17:03):
Maybe next time.
OF (17:04):
Yes.
This is what happens during COVID here.
I hopefully will come and visit you in yourplace at some point.
But for now, thank you for coming.
OK, Question 1, which comes from ShanghaiDaily: What is your favourite China-related
fact?
TB (17:20):
One of the contemporary artists, you might know him, 艾未未 [Ài Wèiwèi]…
OF (17:25):
Ah yes.
TB (17:26):
Yeah, one of his impressive works ‘Sunflower Seeds’ is 100 million seeds.
Life-sized porcelain sunflower seeds.
And do you know how those were made?
OF (17:36):
No.
TB (17:37):
It was made by craftspeople over the course of over two and a half years.
OF (17:42):
Oh wow.
TB (17:43):
Yeah.
OF (17:44):
I’ve never seen it.
OK, I’ll..
TB (17:46):
It's like a magnificent work, I would say, of his.
OF (17:49):
That's really interesting, I will look it up.
And of course, 艾未未 [Ài Wèiwèi] ismost famous in China for doing the Beijing
Olympics building, right?
TB (17:57):
Yeah, yeah.
OF (17:58):
Question 2, which comes from Rosetta Stone: Do you have a favourite word or phrase in
Chinese?
TB (18:04):
Well, it's 哎哟 [Āiyō].
It's like “Oops” or like it's “Oh mygod,” or like…
OF (18:10):
Oh, you mean 哎哟 [Āiyō].
TB (18:11):
I don’t know ‘Haiyo’ or ‘Aiyo’.
OF (18:13):
Oh so you hear it as ‘Haiyo’.
TB (18:16):
Yeah.
I hear it ‘Haiyo’.
OF (18:18):
I know it as 哎哟 [Āiyō].
TB (18:20):
’Aiyo’, ‘Haiyo’…
It's just very Chinese, right?
I hear it a lot.
It's not a word.
What should I say?
Is it a word?
Or what is it?
OF (18:29):
It's a word, it's a sound, it's a feeling…
TB (18:30):
Exactly.
OF (18:31):
It's actually…
it's not the first time that that's been saidon the podcast.
TB (18:33):
Oh really?
OF (18:34):
There was a historical researcher called Yael Farjun from Israel in Season 01...
TB (18:39):
Oh I didn’t know that!
OF (18:40):
She said it for the same reason, just the sound.
And it's the rollercoaster, it goes from upto down.
You can say “哎哟 [Āiyō]!”, “哎哟[Āiyō]!”
TB (18:49):
Chinese language is something like the fluency between sounds going up and down,
so it's very Chinese.
OF (18:56):
Yeah.
TB (18:57):
哎哟 [Āiyō].
OF (18:58):
It's like “You wanna know about tones?
This one word can teach you.”
What about Mongolian, are there tones in Mongolian?
TB (19:05):
No.
OF (19:06):
Next question, which comes from naked Retreats
within China?
TB (19:12):
For scenic views I would say 张家界 [Zhāngjiājiè].
OF (19:15):
Ah, 张家界 [Zhāngjiājiè]?
TB (19:17):
Yes.
OF (19:18):
I haven't been.
TB (19:19):
Incredible.
You should.
The beautiful glass bridge, and all the nature.
And the scenic view is amazing.
OF (19:24):
Yeah.
TB (19:25):
You should go there.
OF (19:26):
Alright, it's on my list.
Although those glass bridges…
I get very scared about anything with a glassbridge.
TB (19:32):
It's not scary.
There’s nothing scary about the glass bridge,it’s so thick, it's just beautiful.
OF (19:36):
I don't believe you.
Next question (19:39):
If you left China, what would you miss the most and what would you miss
the least?
TB (19:45):
I would miss the early routines of China.
Their daily routine starts very early.
You can just start your work at six if youwant.
OF (19:55):
Wow.
TB (19:56):
And you can get the breakfasts from the street at six.
OF (19:59):
Hmm.
TB (20:00):
I like Chinese street breakfast.
OF (20:02):
Like 煎饼 [jiānbing], like 油条 [yóutiáo]?
TB (20:04):
Yeah!
Soups, like everything I can get from thestreet is very delicious.
I would definitely miss that.
OF (20:10):
Well said.
And then what would you miss the least?
TB (20:14):
Least I would miss… access to the global information on time.
It's just annoying.
OF (20:21):
Yeah.
Next question, is there anything that stillsurprises you about life in China?
TB (20:28):
The purchase level of every single person in China, especially during 11/11.
It's just full of packages, full of packagesevery day.
It feels like exceeding their need.
OF (20:42):
Yes.
Yeah, this is exactly opposite to the kindof Mongolian nomadic culture.
Where you just use that land for a small timethen you move on.
Everything is in perfect harmony.
It's like the opposite of how we should live,and yet it's so convenient at the same time.
TB (20:58):
Oh yeah, it is.
Yeah, I admit that is very convenient.
OF (21:01):
Yeah.
Next question, which…
It's from SmartShanghai, but of course foryou this might be more relevant talking about
昆山 [Kūnshān].
But where is your favourite place to go out,to eat, or drink, or hang out?
TB (21:15):
Small nice places like ‘Calita’ or ‘Emily’s’.
They’re in 昆山 [Kūnshān], if you gothere.
OF (21:21):
Nice.
TB (21:22):
And here in Shanghai, I went to that Mexican…
What was the name?
‘Pis….’
OF (21:28):
Pistolera.
TB (21:29):
Oh yeah yeah, Pistolera.
OF (21:32):
This is it actually, I can imagine when you live in 昆山 [Kūnshān], you get some
kind of variety of food.
Then you come to Shanghai, and you can getfood from all around the world, right?
TB (21:40):
Yeah, exactly.
OF (21:41):
What about Mongolian food?
Do you recommend any kind of Mongolian restaurant?
TB (21:45):
Waah.
I cannot recommend any to you!
OF (21:50):
Yeah.
What is the best or worst purchase you'vemade in China?
TB (21:54):
The books I purchased on Taobao maybe were good.
OF (21:58):
Do you have a worst purchase?
TB (22:00):
Yeah, I have.
I have a lot, actually.
Especially when I first came here.
I didn't know how to use Taobao and then didn'tknow the range of the prices actually influence
the quality, and so on.
So the worst purchase was, I ordered a coverfor the bedding, which looked very decent.
(22:22):
And the colour was beige.
But it ended up lemon yellow, and not evena bed cover.
Totally 100% polyester, which was for a sofa.
It’s just not the thing that I ordered.
OF (22:40):
I guess you don't have it anymore.
TB (22:41):
Yeah, I don't have it.
OF (22:43):
Did you even use it once?
TB (22:45):
No.
OF (22:46):
And next question, what is your favourite WeChat sticker?
TB (22:51):
The little raccoon.
The farting little raccoon.
OF (22:54):
Oh my god, is that what he's doing?
That is adorable and disgusting at the time.
TB (23:01):
Yeah I know.
I use that sticker a lot with my son.
OF (23:04):
Do you know what he's saying?
TB (23:06):
I can guess, it's just like ‘ignoring’.
OF (23:09):
Yes.
It's saying 懒得理你 [Lǎn dé lǐ nǐ]…
TB (23:13):
What is it?
OF (23:14):
…Which I think is “I'm too lazy to notice you.”
TB (23:18):
Oh, so it's exactly what I guessed.
OF (23:20):
I need someone to double check that, but that's how I interpret what that Chinese means.
TB (23:25):
OK.
OF (23:26):
In any case, it's a farting raccoon.
Next question, what is your go-to song tosing at KTV?
TB (23:35):
Ah, that's embarrassing.
Keane, ‘Somewhere Only We Know’.
OF (23:38):
Oh, ‘Somewhere Only We Know’, yeah.
TB (23:41):
Or maybe one of the Coldplay songs, I used to listen to them a lot.
OF (23:45):
This makes me ask you about singing in Mongolia, because there's that famous Mongolian
throat singing, right?
TB (23:52):
Yes, there is.
OF (23:53):
Can you do it?
TB (23:54):
No!
You need to practice a lot to make that sound.
OF (23:58):
Are there any KTV songs that include that kind of singing?
TB (24:01):
I don't think so.
OF (24:04):
No, right?
And finally - and this comes from JustPod,which is usually where I would record these
interviews at the studio, but today we'rein my home - what are who is your biggest
source of inspiration in China?
TB (24:18):
The one thing that crossed my mind is just Chinese people.
Like, I admire them.
They're super committed and consistent towhat they are doing.
And that creates China.
It’s impressive.
OF (24:32):
Excellent.
Tsogi, thank you so much.
TB (24:35):
Thank you so much for having me, Oscar.
OF (24:38):
My pleasure.
You still need to barbecue some Mongolianlamb for me next time.
TB (24:42):
Yeah, I owe you.
OF (24:44):
In the meantime, I would ask you, out of everyone you know in China, who would you
recommend that I interview in the next seasonof Mosaic of China?
TB (24:53):
One of my friends’ husband, Stefan Ulrich…
OF (24:57):
OK.
TB (24:58):
…Who works in the UX team of Bosch in Shanghai.
OF (25:02):
The UX team, so that's ‘User Experience’?
TB (25:06):
Yes.
OF (25:07):
Oh, that's interesting.
Yeah, this is where - when you talk aboutdesign - the user experience is the most practical
side of design, right?
TB (25:14):
It is, isn’t it.
OF (25:16):
Excellent.
I appreciate that.
And if there was one question that you wouldask Stefan, what question would you ask him?
TB (25:23):
How would you describe Mongolians, as a German who has a Mongolian wife?
OF (25:31):
There you go.
So again, the Mongolian connection will continue.
Thank you so much lucky, Tsogi.
TB (25:38):
It was really nice talking with you.
[Outro]OF: Tsogi mentioned 11/11, which is the big
day of online shopping every year on November11th in China.
Well we’ve just had it, so right now manyof us here will be wading through piles of
packages to get through the entrances to ourbuildings.
(25:58):
As with every year, I personally ordered preciselynothing, which is more out of sheer laziness
rather than on any grounds of sustainabilityor as a protest against over-consumerism.
But in any case, from now on every November11th I’m going to proclaim that I’m ‘going
Mongolian’.
Which is a totally inaccurate and reductivething to say, but when has that ever stopped
(26:21):
me before?
If you’re wondering why we didn’t takemore time to discuss other aspects of Mongolian
culture, there are two reasons for that.
The first one is that this podcast is called‘Mosaic of China,’ so it wouldn’t exactly
be on brand to spend too long talking aboutthe separate country of Mongolia.
And the second reason is that actually wedid discuss more about Mongolia - specifically
(26:46):
the differences between the country of Mongoliaand the Chinese province of 内蒙古 [Nèiménggǔ],
or ‘Inner Mongolia’ - in the PREMIUM versionof the show.
So if you want to hear more, please checkout the Mosaic of China website for how you
can subscribe.
Here are a few clips from that version oftoday’s show:
[Clip 1]TB: Many people told me “How come you don't
(27:08):
understand Chinese?”
[Clip 2]TB: We used to have only the vertical Mongolian
script until we changed to Cyrillics.
[Clip 3]OF: At that time there would be a direct flight,
right?
Between Shanghai and Улаанбаатар[Ulaanbaatar]?
Sure.
It was so easy.
Two hours and something.
Less than three hours.
[Clip 4]TB: They’ve been taught at their high schools
(27:29):
that Mongolia is part of China.
OF (27:30):
Oh!
OK.
[Clip 5]TB: And even though we use Russian Cyrillics,
Russians wouldn't understand our Cyrillics.
Exactly.
[End of Audio Clips]
Check out social media for all the extra imagesfrom today’s show.
There’s Tsogi’s favourite WeChat sticker,there are some photos from her days as a fashion
designer in Mongolia, and a bunch of otherstoo.
(27:54):
And in researching the pink raccoon calledRuby, from where her son gave her the English
name, Tsogi discovered that it’s from theKorean animated series called 'Pororo the
Little Penguin', and that actually it’snot a raccoon called Ruby, it’s a beaver
called Loopy.
Which in my eyes makes her story all the moreadorable.
(28:15):
The big update since we recorded our episodeis that Tsogi is no longer living in 昆山
[Kūnshān], she is now in 重庆 [Chóngqìng.
And also her family finally got their visasso her son should be coming to live with her
in China very soon.
Speaking of Tsogi’s son, to hear more onthe topic of autism - specifically, autism
in the workplace in China - be sure to checkout the episode with the diversity advocate
(28:39):
Sebastien Denes from Season 01 Episode 11.
As for other connections with Tsogi, there’sthe artist Nini Sum from Season 01 Episode
16, the fashion designer Octo Cheung fromSeason 01 Episode 30, and the teacher/student
coach Seth Harvey from Season 02 Episode 19.
(29:01):
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artworkby Denny Newell.
Stick around for a couple of catch-ups fromprevious seasons.
Firstly the person who referred Tsogi, whichwas DJ BO from Season 02 Episode 23.
And secondly, the person who referred DJ BO,which was Abe Deyo from Season 01 Episode
27.
(29:21):
And we’ll be back with another episode nextweek.
[Catch-Up Interview 1]BO: Hey Oscar.
Hi DJ BO.
BO (29:32):
How are you doing?
OF (29:36):
I'm doing well.
BO (29:40):
Lots of changes.
Lots of different stuff has happened.
OF (29:42):
Yeah.
BO (29:43):
I’ve got a bunch of tattoos now that weren't there before.
OF (29:46):
What?
BO (29:47):
I’ve even retired the name ‘DJ B-O’.
OF (29:49):
What the ****? BO
First of all, let me say this.
I love the idea of having different namesfor different things.
You get a chance to approach yourself viathe eyes of other people.
And so my name still looks the same, I justgo by ‘DJ BO’ now.
DJ BO.
(30:09):
And this was part of some kind of renaissancefor you?
You mentioned there were new tattoos, what’sgoing on?
BO (30:14):
Do you remember the recording date, for the first time?
OF (30:17):
I can check.
I don't believe you had tattoos at that time.
BO (30:20):
I got my first tattoo in January 2021.
I had a DJ gig and 哈尔滨 [Hā’ěrbīn].
And then all the gigs got cancelled in 哈尔滨[Hā’ěrbīn].
But I don't like to not follow through.
I was able to meet up with a guy named Sion.
We met at a Russian restaurant, which is whatyou do in 哈尔滨 [Hā’ěrbīn].
He was like “Hey, so you're here, and there'sreally nothing happening with me and stuff,
(30:42):
do you want me to give you a tattoo?”
It was a unique opportunity, and I alwayslean towards saying “Yes” anyway, for
everything.
What I realised was, this almost makes memore responsible for my body.
You have something valuable here, don’t**** it up too much.
OF (30:57):
Don’t mess up the canvas.
BO (30:59):
Yeah, exactly.
OF (31:00):
Well, what does the future hold for you right now?
BO (31:02):
I have no idea.
Who knows?
The future ain’t what it used to be, Oscar.
OF (31:06):
Yeah!
Well said.
BO (31:08):
I don't know.
I’m still doing a Master's degree, but it'skind of on hold.
OF (31:11):
Oh.
BO (31:12):
I don't know where things are heading, I don't know what opportunities are here.
OF (31:15):
Yeah.
BO (31:16):
I don't know if I want to let things cool down here in Shanghai.
So, leave and come back.
You know, it's not going to be what it wasbefore.
But wherever it's going to be, give it a chanceto least get its footing a bit here.
OF (31:28):
Yeah.
BO (31:29):
Or try to finish what I want to do, as quickly as possible.
OF (31:33):
Yeah.
BO (31:34):
So I'm not quite sure.
I'm really at an uncertain point.
OF (31:39):
Yeah.
I'm going to obviously be releasing your catch-upat the back of my interview with Tsogi, who
you recommended…
BO (31:46):
Oh, yeah!
OF (31:47):
…For Season 03.
BO (31:48):
Yeah.
OF (31:49):
So have you been in touch with her?
BO (31:50):
Honestly, I haven’t.
Partially because she's not here, into Shanghai.
OF (31:55):
Yes.
BO (31:56):
But also, even more than that, she would do some artwork for Mongolian events that
I was doing.
Well I haven’t been doing any of that.
OF (32:03):
Yeah.
BO (32:04):
So we just weren’t able to play a little catch up with that.
OF (32:08):
I think what it is, is everyone has a lot going on in their mind.
And for you and someone to connect, you bothhave to be in that right state, at the right
place, at the right time.
And that's what's hard actually, especiallywhen you don't live in the same city.
So I have many many friends like that, whoI also haven't connected with.
It's a shame, and I hope that once bordersdo finally dissolve again, we can reconnect
(32:32):
with people in the same way we used to.
Which also makes me ask you about Abe Deyo…
BO (32:36):
Oh.
OF (32:37):
…The person who introduced you.
How about Abe from Season 01?
Same story?
BO (32:41):
I haven't spoken to Abe in a while.
But Abe is a fellow traveller, a peripatetic.
And those people have a special sort of relationship,where we understand that we're criss-crossing
paths.
And it could be a week, it could be years,and we can just look at each other in the
eye and it's fine.
(33:02):
So I don't even have to worry about him inthat regard.
OF (33:05):
I know what you mean.
BO (33:06):
Yeah.
OF (33:07):
The way I've heard it mentioned - and I've adopted it for myself - is like an elastic
band.
And friendships have a different elasticity.
And some people, you know if you've stretchedit beyond capacity then it will break.
And there are some people - like you and Abe- where you can stretch that band indefinitely.
BO (33:22):
Although I would love to stretch that rubber band and snap it back on his skin and
make him say “Ouch” every once in a while.
OF (33:28):
Well, thank you so much DJ BO.
I have to get used to calling you that.
BO (33:32):
You call me whatever you want, Oscar.
Thanks for having me!
OF (33:36):
Thank you.
[Catch-Up Interview 2]OF: Hello Abe.
AD (33:39):
Hello Oscar, it’s been a while.
OF (33:41):
It has been a while.
And let me introduce you to people who maynot have heard our original episode.
Back then - and that was in Season 01 - youwere a China tour manager and promoter for
international indie bands.
And then the second time we caught up, youwere taking some time out on Lamma Island
(34:02):
in Hong Kong.
Since back then, live shows had basicallystopped around the world at that point.
So what is your situation today?
AD (34:09):
Live music has come back a little bit.
Me in the meantime, I started an MBA.
And then as of June, I rejoined Live Nation.
OF (34:19):
Oh goodness!
AD (34:20):
Yeah, so back with Live Nation.
And now I'm not working with the emergingartists, but the touring team.
OF (34:27):
OK.
When we talked last, I think you were sayingabout how Live Nation at that point had grown
to the extent that it was quite unsustainable.
Do you see a pared-down version to what itwas before?
AD (34:40):
It is a large corporation.
They have pared down some of the emergingmarkets, focusing on ones with more potential
or ones that are less risky, which I thinkwas a smart idea.
OF (34:53):
And with your background, are you keeping your hand in China?
AD (34:57):
Someone else is doing it.
Things change so fast.
And to be fair, for the few years that I wasout of Live Nation, I wasn't really paying
attention to much.
Hibernation, so…
OF (35:08):
Oh, I totally get it.
In fact, I do remember when we had our originalinterview back in Season 01, I did sense that
there was a bit of weariness in the way thatwe talked about how you had been to the same
places, with so many different bands, on somany different tours.
And I'm wondering if that's part of it.
Or actually, now that you haven't done itfor so many years, do you miss that part?
AD (35:28):
I miss it a little bit.
I think I was travelling a little too much.
That wore on me after a while, you know, whenyou take 100 flights in one year.
OF (35:37):
Yes.
AD (35:38):
It’s a little too much.
With my new role, it should be better, centredon a specific market.
OF (35:44):
Got it.
Well, switching over to the second thing yousaid, which was you're doing your MBA.
How did you find going back into that kindof classroom situation?
AD (35:53):
It was a big change.
It’s been a very long time since I had todo any academic work.
A lot of lectures are online, but then it'scentres around workshops, which is nice.
We're on the same level.
OF (36:09):
You're all scratching our heads wondering “What the hell, how did I do this before?”
AD (36:13):
Oh yeah, that was a lot of that.
How to do like Harvard citations and stufflike that.
OF (36:19):
Oh god, citations.
Anything which involves a footnote, it’slike a nightmare.
AD (36:23):
Yeah, yeah.
You never have to do that in the businessworld.
OF (36:28):
No, you can just spout off anything, and just say “Citation
AD (36:32):
Yeah.
OF (36:33):
You introduced DJ BO to the podcast in Season 02.
AD (36:38):
Yeah.
OF (36:39):
Are you in touch with DJ BO?
I know it's tough.
AD (36:41):
We message each other occasionally.
OF (36:44):
I should say that he's renamed himself now.
So you don't say ‘DJ B-O’ anymore, yousay ‘DJ BO’.
AD (36:50):
Has he?
OF (36:51):
Yeah.
AD (36:52):
You see, because when we message each other, it'd be kind of hard to message that
out.
OF (36:57):
It's still spelt the same.
AD (36:58):
Yeah, so I did not know he's now ‘DJ BO’.
OF (37:01):
You heard it here first.
AD (37:03):
Yeah, that’s good to hear.
OF (37:04):
And I will be including an update alongside the episode in Season 03, which was DJ BO's
recommendation, a Mongolian teacher and artistcalled Tsogi.
Do you actually know this person?
AD (37:17):
I don’t, I don't know.
I'll be looking forward to that.
OF (37:20):
Well, this is how it works now.
So it'll be like weird Russian doll to seeexactly how far the connections end up.
Each time, I hope there's a good excuse forme to give you a call.
AD (37:30):
Oh yeah, for sure.
See how far it goes, before it gets all theway back to me, right?
OF (37:35):
Yes.
AD (37:36):
Season 100.
That might be a little far…
OF (37:39):
Oh dear.
Er, no.
I can categorically say that now (37:41):
No, there will not be that many.
Well, thank you so much Abe, always good tospeak to you.
And I hope that the next time we'll be onthe beach on Lamma together.
I think I said that last time, but fingerscrossed for the future.
AD (37:55):
Yeah, hopefully we're getting closer to that date.
OF (37:57):
Thanks man, all the best.
AD (37:59):
All right.
Good talking to you.
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