January 25, 2021 • 34 mins
We all know what to expect in a theatre. We all know what to expect in an art gallery. But in which of these worlds does Performance Art belong? One answer is the Ming Contemporary Art Museum (McaM) in Shanghai, and one person who can explain this world is the artist and curator, Zhang Yuan. Yuan's story also helps to paint a picture of the independent art scene in China, and the way in which performance art can convert audience members into active participants, and ultimately into a community of open-minded thinkers. The episode also includes a catch-up interview with Nick YU from Season 01 Episode 13. (https://mosaicofchina.com/season-01-episode-13-nick-yu). Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 01:06 - Part 1 19:18 - Part 2 27:02 - Outro 30:01 - Catch-Up Interview Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at https://mosaicofchina.com/season-02-episode-07-zhang-yuan. Join the community on Instagram (https://instagram.com/oscology), LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/mosaicofchina), Facebook (https://facebook.com/mosaicofchina) or WeChat (https://mosaicofchina.com/wechat).
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
[Trailer]ZY: I have done almost
everything in this industry, butnothing has been very successful.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to
Mosaic of China, a podcast about people makingtheir mark in China. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
Thank you for all your feedback fromlast week’s episode with Louise Roy.
(00:22):
It seems like we could do a whole separatepodcast just on women’s health. Today’s episode
is with the artist and art curator Zhang Yuan, andit’s a great conversation. But before we start,
you may have noticed that the @mosaicofchinaInstagram account has suddenly disappeared.
This was a surprise for me too, to say theleast. I’m trying to find out what happened
(00:42):
and get it back online, but in the meantime,you can still follow the images on Facebook
and WeChat. And for subscribers to the PREMIUMversion of the podcast, I’ll start to upload the
images directly onto Patreon from now on. So justhead to the Patreon page for this episode, and
you’ll be able to follow everything there. Thanksto Gautier Squivée for giving me that suggestion.
(01:02):
OK enough of all that, let’s get on with the show.
[Part 1]OF:
I’m here with Yuan, hi Yuan.ZY: Hi, Oscar.
OF (01:11):
So the first thing I want to do is to play you something.
[Start of Audio Clip]Nick YU: His name is Zhang Yuan, the
Maker Zhang. Yeah, we worked in the theatre. Buthe left to be an independent artist. I think his
work is really interesting.[End of Audio Clip]
That was our friend, Nick Yu. ZY
(01:37):
I was called to have an internship in a theatrewhere he worked. They needed a translator to work
between the director and the local team. Andthen he asked “Are you interested in coming
to work in the theatre?” I thought “Yes, why notgive it a try.” Then we worked together for about
(02:04):
four years in this National Theatre.OF: Oh nice. So he basically
was your sponsor into this world?ZY: You could say so. In a way, yes.
Very nice. Well, before we go any further, I would like to know,
what is the object that you have broughtthat in some way typifies your life in China?
ZY (02:25):
A radio. I bought it when I was beginning my years in university. And that's the machine
that I used to connect with the world. Youknow, the VOA - Voice of America - and BBC.
(02:48):
And we used this to learn English, topractice our listening comprehension. And also
emotionally, at that time, I would use itevery morning and every evening before I
go to sleep. So it's kind of like my buddy.OF: Yeah. And it's funny because there was someone
(03:09):
else in last season who chose the same thing.ZY: Really?
OF (03:12):
Yes. His name was Yang Yi. He’s a broadcaster. ZY
And it was exactly the same window that he had. He lived in 安徽 [Ānhuī] Province. And that
was what opened up the world to him. So that'sso nice that there's a connection like that.
ZY (03:25):
Yeah, that's cool. Yeah. OF
because it's very mini.ZY: Mm hmm.
OF (03:31):
Was that a high tech invention back then? ZY
I would say.OF: Yeah.
ZY (03:36):
Yeah. OF
people would have thrown away their old equipment.ZY: The reason why I chose this object today is
that there's some kind of emotional bondbetween me and this small little monster.
Maybe one day I will throw it away, I don'tknow. Because it's not working at the moment.
OF (03:56):
Right. ZY
to be honest, how long I could keep it.OF: Well, let's talk about today then. So
is there a connection between thatradio and what you do today in China?
ZY (04:06):
It helps me, like, my English and the way I see the world and… Yeah, I mean, in a way it helps
me for my life at the moment, but not directly.OF: Yeah. So what is it that you do?
OK, I'm a curator at the moment, working in a museum in Shanghai. It's called Ming Contemporary
(04:34):
Art Museum, McaM. Yeah, it's a private museum,and it was founded by Mingyuan Group - a private
real estate company - in 2015, with the missionto facilitate the exploration of performing arts.
I took the job in 2017 actually, as the performingarts curator in the museum, to support local
(05:00):
artists as well as international collaborations.OF: OK, so that's obviously the connection that
I can make between your work withNick Yu and what you're doing today.
Yeah I was, like, starting my career in this big national theatre with Nick Yu, almost
16 years ago. Then I left that place,and I became an artist… I think,
(05:26):
myself. Yeah, for, I mean, four or five years.Then I started to work with independent artists.
And then there was this special museum, so I tookthe chance, and then I started to work there.
OF (05:43):
Interesting. So you, sort of, are a little bit behind the scenes, but then also, you are an
artist yourself. So you span both worlds?ZY: Yes. I kind of kid to my friends that
I have done almost everything in this industry,but nothing has been very successful. You know,
from the subtitles operator, to translator, tointerpreter, to project manager, to producer,
(06:09):
to artist, and then to curator,presenter, blah blah blah.
And is that a linear line between these career paths? Or is it just random?
ZY (06:21):
If there is a linear line, then I created it myself. But I haven't
got tired of what I'm doing at the moment.OF: Well, let's talk about that. When you say that
you are doing performance arts in a museum, thatto me is confusing, because it's performance art,
but you're doing it in a museum context.ZY: Yes, I'm confused myself.
(06:44):
As you know, I mean, the museum is mostlyfor visual arts - for paintings, for videos,
or installations - and performing arts, aswe know, normally you do it in the theatre.
But there's not a very cleardistinction between the two worlds,
and I think the borders are kind of blurring.And compare to what we see in the theatre or
(07:11):
conventional theatre - particularly drama -the performing arts as we see or participate
in museums are more open, and you have muchmore space or room to try new things. And the
two worlds are learning from each other. As weknow, if you go to a theatre, normally you sit
(07:36):
in the auditorium or in the seat, quite seriously,and you see the performance taking place on stage.
The relationship between the audience andthe performers is one-way, or we call it a
‘proscenium’ performance.OF: Right.
But now they see what things are taking place in the museum, and the museum performance
(07:56):
in the museum, and normally there are manyfocuses. Instead of one leading role - like
the actor or actress that you concentrate on- in the museum, you can choose your focus,
instead of being forced to see what it is.OF: And is that what defines it? Because
(08:17):
it's so hard to define what is ‘performanceart’. It almost sounds like not just a mixture
between theatre and art, but also dance, right?ZY: Yeah, there are more and more choreographers
and dancers who like to engage themselves in thegallery and museum, trying to find a new way with
their language, the dance vocabulary. And theexperience, I would say, is very much different.
(08:43):
As we all talk about nowadays, this‘immersive theatre’ thing you know.
OF (08:49):
Right. ZY
You know, for me, every performance is immersive.If it is not then it is not a performance.
Yeah. As we know, during the COVID-19 situation,there were no performances right? All theatres
shut down, all the museums shut down, and they putthe stuff online. You see performance through the
(09:11):
screen. This kind of performance, I would say,is not immersive, or it is not ‘performance’.
It’s just, at the moment, an alternative, what wehave got used to. Maybe in the future there will
be some new possibility, I do not shut down thispossibility. But at the moment, I’d say, it is not
(09:34):
performance. It’s still more like video art.OF: Right. So what you're saying then is,
a visual art performance is somethingwhich exists very much between the artist
and the audience in that space.ZY: Yeah. And we would not really
call them ‘audience' in a way. I would,like, call them ‘participants’. And artists,
(10:00):
sometimes they are like a‘facilitator’. They're not educating
you. They are trying to share the spacewith you. And without the spectators or
participants, the piece is not complete.OF: Which means it's different every time,
which is similar to a theatre piece, right?ZY: Yeah. Yeah.
Maybe the best way would be to think about some examples of some of the work that you ZY:
(10:28):
A performance called Father's House, a performanceof about 20 hours - three continuous days - 10 to
12 performers, performing with the worksof the exhibition. The artist, they created
this ‘Father's House’, huge installations -paintings, installations, and all kinds of
(10:51):
artworks - which occupies the museum. And thenthere are artists performing with the works.
Right. ZY
As we all know, the exhibition is not moving,right? It's objects. We call it exhibitions,
it's like the presentation of objects. Butperformance is also an exhibition. But it's
(11:14):
a presentation of bodies. You know, it's reallyhard. It's beyond words. You have to see it.
Yeah, this is the trick, like, how do we put something which is so abstract into words?
But you're doing a good job.ZY: I try my best.
I guess my question would be then, so why this art form? Like, even using these examples, what
(11:37):
could the artist achieve using performance art,which they couldn't have achieved using dance,
using theatre, using other forms of visual art?ZY: Everything has its own limits, or borders.
So I think I keep looking for an environment wherethere will be new things that could be initiated,
(12:00):
instead of having to repeat things. It has tobe provocative to be meaningful. Otherwise,
we would be enslaved by consumerism, or whatever.We're not trying to give them the answers,
we’re not Gods. It’s something that helpsyou to find what is wrong with your life.
(12:26):
You need theatre performance to create the bridgethat people would try at least trying to realise
what is behind. I'm not saying performing arts isthe medicine. But at least we create a mirror in
which you could see things, at least see yourself.OF: Provocative has a meaning of, like,
(12:49):
‘counterculture’… it doesn't have to be. It canjust provoke an emotion, right? Provoke anything.
ZY (12:54):
Yeah, you're right. Definitely, I cannot agree with you more. I mean,
it's not really about politics. Notreally, I mean, it’s about your own life,
your own community, the family, everything.It does not have to be about politics.
OF (13:10):
Right, right. ZY
So you are the curator. So you obviously have the power to
bring into this space, the things that you wantto see yourself. Or the things that you think
the people want to see. Like, which one is it?ZY: Yes, very good question. I mean,
I'm not in the mood to please anybody.Because the Museum, it is not commercial.
(13:33):
Oh, great. So that's quite liberating for you. ZY
So it's not about pleasing each other, andit's not catering for what they already know.
So the answer to the question then is, you curate for yourself.
ZY (13:51):
I would not say I curate more for myself, it seems to be that I'm a dictator, no.
And I do not own the place, you know, I'malso an employee, I'm working for someone
behind the museum, you know. But I think this‘someone behind the museum’ is open enough
(14:12):
for me to create something more interesting.Things that you would see in a big theatre,
definitely I would not present. And our location,many people feel it’s a bit far away from the city
centre. So I need a good reason that peoplewould come. So people would have this expectation
(14:34):
that they could not see it elsewhere. Sothis is something I have to keep in mind.
OF (14:40):
And then what kind of feedback do you get from the audience,
from the ‘participants' as you say? Like, doyou hear about how it impacts them? How do
you measure the impact that this work is having?ZY: After every project, we will have a review.
It would not become just a theatre piece, itwould become a project, which means it has
(15:00):
something more. Like, we will createsome installation works. Maybe later,
there will be an exhibition about it. So we extendthe possibility of discussion over this topic.
That's interesting, yeah. Because that's when you can then put it on social media,
you can then have people interactwith it in a different way. So that's
when it has a life beyond just that space.ZY: Yeah. I gradually realised that performance
(15:25):
itself is very ephemeral.OF: Yeah.
ZY (15:28):
It happened, then it's gone. OF
So for each performance, maybe only 100 people. Or 500 at the most. So what?
I mean, compared to live streaming, theworld where we're now living, right?
OF (15:43):
Yeah. ZY
could you expand the influence of this art?OF: That's right. But then at the same time,
that's when it gets harder, becausethe more people you can meet,
the more on the radar you are,and then the more politics, right?
ZY (15:56):
You know me so well. OF
advantage to being under the radar, right?ZY: Yeah, in a way, that's true. So that's
the the conflict, or the paradox, we are facing.OF: Well, that gives you the passion, because
the space itself is the reasonyou can do some of these works.
I mean, tell me about this space. What doesthe space itself bring to the performance?
(16:19):
It used to be a factory called ‘Shanghai Paper Machine
Manufacturer’, something like that. They kept it,without renovation. It's not a white box. And it's
not a black box. It's more like a grey box.OF: Right.
Which gives you the freedom to do both, which makes it interesting.
(16:41):
Almost every artist that I bring to this place,they will feel in love with the place all of
sudden, which gives me more confidence.OF: Well, you mentioned other artists,
so how do you fit into the world ofindependent artists here in Shanghai?
When I was working in the theatre with Nick, I happened to meet kind of a base for independent
(17:05):
artists - particularly performing artists - atthat time. And I happened to know 张献 [Zhāng Xiàn],
小珂 [Xiǎo Kē], and they have a, a…OF: Collective?
A collective of independent artists, we called it, in Chinese we called it 组合嬲 [Zǔhé Niǎo].
So ‘Niao Collective’ would be more precise.OF: Niao. So ‘Niao’, that’s not ‘bird’
(17:30):
right? That's something else.ZY: Yeah, it sounds like ‘bird’. But
the 汉子 [hànzi] is different. And most Chinesecould not recognise what this 汉子 [hànzi] means.
So it combines three characters,there is a male, female, and a male.
OF (17:46):
Oh, very simple. ZY
in different places. With the differentdialects, it has a different interpretation.
It could be meaning ‘playful’, or it could mean‘flirting’, or in some places it means… ‘F’.
Oh, something ruder. ZY
(18:08):
But visually, when you see it, you could seethe vitality of what the character suggests.
Right. And it's open to interpretation. I see how that 汉子 [hànzi] itself is something like a
piece of performative art.ZY: Yes, exactly.
OK, well that's smart. And so now, does that collective still exists?
Like, what form does it take?ZY: It still exists. I mean,
(18:31):
the reason that it still exists isbecause it's not a theatre company.
It's not led by one person.OF: Right, right.
ZY (18:38):
It’s more like a community by some artists who share the same value. It's more project based. So
when any of us has an idea or initiative to dosomething, then we will group people together.
There will be a project or a piece, or someaction or movement. So it's more freestyle.
(18:59):
And one of the founders even suggested thatanyone could use the name Niao Collective,
if they share this value.OF: Nice. That's great.
Well, thank you so much Yuan,ZY: My pleasure.
OF (19:12):
And let's move on to Part 2. ZY
[Part 2]OF: Part 2.
ZY (19:21):
Part 2, OK. OF
what is your favourite China-related fact?ZY: In a way, our society is more like a
performative society. If you really calm yourselfdown, as an observer or as someone outside, then
you observe what is going on these days inChina. It’s theatre. Particularly when you
(19:43):
go outside of China, how they see you as a Chineseand how they see what is happening in China,
then you would feel much more about this.OF: Do you have a favourite word or
phrase in Chinese?ZY: 马马虎虎 [Mǎmǎhǔhǔ].
OF (20:00):
You're the first person to say that. ZY
But that's normally a phrase that foreigners know, more than Chinese. I never hear Chinese
people say that.ZY: Oh really?
Yeah! ZY
kind of my favourite.OF: Can you explain it?
ZY (20:11):
I don't know why, because 马马虎虎 [mǎmǎhǔhǔ] literally means ‘horse horse tiger tiger’.
It means ‘Not doing it well. Not doing ittoo badly. Something in between’. So I think
it’s more like the Chinese. There’s something inthe genes that we don't want to be precise. To
push ourselves too hard. It is not bad, so itstill kind of qualifies. But the reason I like
(20:39):
this is the characters. ‘Horse horse tigertiger’, I don't see a thing about why it is
‘not something great or something not too bad’.OF: So where does it come from, do you know?
No. I would like to keep it a mystery. OF
What is your favourite destination within China?ZY: 大理 [Dàlǐ]. It's like a utopia, or it's like
(21:02):
a hippie place, where you could relaxyourself and to not think too much.
And people seem to think differently. And thereare many artists working there. And I like
the fact that the clouds are so close to you.OF: Oh right, nice. If you left China,
(21:23):
what would you miss the most andwhat would you miss the least?
Traditional Chinese breakfast, particularly Shanghai breakfast. 大饼油条 [Dàbǐng yóutiáo], how do
you call it in English? You know?OF: Yeah, it’s those oily sort of sticks, right?
Yeah. OF
Dough, yeah. For the fat one, there is sweet and salty. For the longer one it’s only
(21:44):
salty, I think.OF: Right. But it's quite oily. Like,
for me, it's too oily.ZY: Ah, OK.
OF (21:49):
Actually Shanghai food has a very bad rap in China, right?
ZY (21:53):
I don't think so. OF
I talk to somebody not from Shanghai,they always complain about Shanghai food.
Too sweet? OF
They haven't tried, like, the food in 无锡 [Wúxī] or
in 江苏 [Jiāngsū] Province. It’s sweeter.OF: Really, OK. And anything that you would
not miss if you left?ZY: The noise.
OF (22:14):
Right. ZY
there’s this noise. Something being demolished.Something being constructed. You move to a new
house, and your neighbour is renovating… ach!OF: Is there something that still surprises
you about modern life in China?ZY: Technology. But in a way you
(22:37):
know I mean, I believe we cannot live withouttechnology. The philosopher who just passed away,
Bernard Stiegler, he just said technology is thepoison. But on the other hand it’s the solution.
So you have to get along with it.OF: What is the best or worst
purchase you have recently made?ZY: So, I love this experience when I work with
(22:59):
some artist and they would give their piece ofwork to me as a gift. So I appreciate that a lot,
I will say, this kind of ‘economy of gifts’.OF: I love that, thank you. What is your favourite
place to go out, to eat or drink or just hang out?ZY: So that would be home. I mean, ‘home’ means
(23:20):
my home and my friends’ home. And I even thinkof curating something about that in the future.
We can blur the border of public andprivacy, if we can bring performers
to people's homes. That's what I mean.OF: Mmm. What is your favourite WeChat sticker?
ZY (23:38):
Let me send you. OF
Now hang on, let me see, it says‘大脑一片空白 [dànǎo yīpiàn kòngbái]’.
Yes. OF
could read it. What does that mean?ZY: That means “nothing in my head”.
Or “I cannot think of anything”.OF: Oh, I like it. So if somebody
(23:58):
asks you a question, you don't want toor you can't answer, you just send that.
Yeah, yeah. It's like, when there's nothing on the TV screen.
OF (24:05):
Great. important one
ZY (24:11):
I hate KTV. OF
are you never tempted to have a sing?ZY: Of course I would,
they would coerce me to sing.OF: That’s it.
You know, I would sing ‘You Are Not Alone’. OF
You know that? OF
Yes. Yes. OF
Cuz people, I mean, when you group together and you’re singing karaoke,
(24:33):
you are lonely in a way. Yeah, but you'resaying you're not alone. Yeah, for me, it’s…
OF (24:39):
Ah, so it really touched your heart, actually. ZY
itself is touching. Yeah, it’s a good song, yeah.OF: Thank you. And finally, what China-related
media or sources of information do you use?ZY: I have to confess, I read no more papers.
I mean, journals, magazines,all these sort of thing.
(25:01):
Yeah. ZY
getting information through social media.OF: Yeah. And so even in a specific niche
like contemporary art, everyonestill just relies on WeChat, right?
ZY (25:10):
Yeah. There are periodicals, but I don't think people are reading it seriously. People will take
a look, but they will not spend much time on it.OF: Well, thank you so much, Yuan,
I really enjoyed that.ZY: Thank you. I enjoyed it,
too. It's really hard for a Chinese to talkabout China when he is living in China.
OF (25:29):
Yes. ZY
It's hard to see the true face of LushanMountain when you are in the mountain.
OF Right, I like it.ZY: And what I'm talking about at the moment,
I think, is mostly to my life experiencein Shanghai. And Shanghai, to my knowledge,
(25:50):
is not China.OF: Yeah.
ZY (25:51):
It’s like New York is not America or Berlin is not Germany, in a way. But more,
Shanghai is not China.OF: Absolutely. I mean,
Shanghai has more in common with New Yorkthan it has with Anhui Province, right?
Indeed. OF
Finally, the only thing I want to ask you is, out of all the people you know in China,
who would you recommend that I interviewin the next season of Mosaic of China?
OF (26:15):
I would introduce Mr. Wang Yiquan. We all call him ‘Xiaoquan’. And now I call him ‘Mr.
President’. He is awesome. He's not only anartist, not only a curator, but he is also an
entrepreneur. He was born in Beijing. You knowthe story between the North and the South.
(26:40):
People in the South will not live in the North,North would not live in the South. But he,
as a Beijing-nese, chose to live in Shanghai,and became very active. So I think he's special.
Thank you. I look forward to meeting ‘Xiaoquan’, maybe I shouldn't call him that.
Thanks very much.ZY: Thank you.
[Outro]OF:
(27:04):
Another big thanks to Zhang Yuan, least ofall for being the first person to mention the
phrase 马马虎虎 [mǎmǎhǔhǔ] meaning ‘so-so’. I hadbeen expecting someone to say this phrase long
before Episode 07 of Season 02, it’s definitely afavourite, especially among foreigners in China. I
did my research, and this phrase apparently datesback to a story from the 宋 Sòng Dynasty, so that’s
(27:25):
around 1,000AD. The story goes that an artistwas painting a tiger when his friend came and
asked him to paint a horse. Instead of starting anew picture, the artist simply drew the body of a
horse onto the tiger’s head that he had alreadypainted. The outcome was… meh: 马马虎虎 [mǎmǎhǔhǔ].
The other thing I wanted to clarify was theproper translation of 大饼油条 [Dàbǐng yóutiáo],
(27:48):
the Shanghai breakfast food that Yuan said hewould miss the most if he left China. The best
translation for this should actually be 'flatbreadfritters' rather than what I said, which was
'those oily sort of sticks’. So there you go,that was me being decidedly 马马虎虎 [mǎmǎhǔhǔ].
OK here are some clips from the PREMIUMversion of the show, please subscribe at
(28:10):
https://patreon.com/mosaicofchina ifyou want to hear the full interview.
[Clip 1]ZY: Private museums became a phenomenon.
And no one knows how long it will last.OF: Oh right.
[Clip 2]ZY: We are recreating the life of ‘leftover' girls
in China…OF: Oh yes.
ZY (28:27):
… Inspired by Ibsen’s play. [Clip 3]
These people, these new members, they will create their own festivals.
OF (28:34):
Nice. [Clip 4]
ZY (28:36):
So in this respect, I'm very much provocative. [Clip 5]
It’s kind of that I got a marriage, you know. I married my parents
during these three or four months.[End of Audio Clips]
And finally, today’s random connectionwith an episode from the past
is that Yuan’s favourite karaoke song, MichaelJackson’s ‘You Are Not Alone’ is exactly the
(28:58):
same as the song chosen by Astrid Poghosyan,the violinist from Season 01 Episode 04.
I could never have predicted that, out of all thethings that would come up twice in this podcast,
it would be Guns N' Roses last week, and MichaelJackson today. You guys make me want to scream.
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs,with artwork by Denny Newell.
(29:21):
Coming up is an excerpt from my catch-up chat withNick Yu from the Shanghai Dramatic Arts Centre.
And please listen to Nick’sfull episode from Season 01
if you thought I was just being mean to Yuanabout the reputation for Shanghainese food.
Nick is very clear about his opinion onthe matter. Also, we’ll be taking a break
for a few weeks now, as we’re heading into theChinese New Year period. So 恭喜发财 [gōngxǐ fācái]
(29:45):
and 春节快乐 [chūnjié kuàilè] to all of you, andI’ll see you back here again later in February.
[Catch-Up Interview]OF:
So hello, Nick.Nick Yu: Hi, Oscar.
OF (30:05):
Nice to see you. NY
Yeah, you work about 100 metres from my house. NY
So whenever I walk past the Dramatic Arts Theatre, I always think of you,
I always look for you, but I neversee you. You're always busy inside.
NY (30:22):
Somewhere. OF
life since we did our first recording.NY: Yeah.
OF (30:30):
The first thing I wanted to ask you was, so during Coronavirus, how many plays did you write?
NY (30:38):
Ah, yeah, that's a really good question. Because, you know, especially in February,
the whole month, I stayed at home alone. So Ihad plenty of time to write, to read. And also I
finished my PhD in February.OF: What?
Yeah. OF
(30:59):
Thank you. And also I wrote about four plays. OF
Yeah. OF
they were very creative, and other people, theywere blocked and they could not create anything.
Yeah. OF
in creating. Of course, I knew you would be.NY: I have two different parts. The one
(31:22):
part was with the theatre being closed. But weneeded to prepare, and we needed to deal with
all the things that happened during that time.That makes us do everything for the audience, how
to get the audience back. We cannot do everythingonline. During that period, we still had something
(31:42):
to try. So we tried everything to try to getthe audience to go back to the theatre. But now,
the situation seems to get better and better.OF: Right. And this is where we in China are in
a luckier position then many people outside.NY: Yeah. For us, because we have lots of
programming we decided one year ahead.OF: Yeah, right, you plan so far ahead.
(32:08):
Yeah. But we have a lot of artists from abroad.
OF (32:11):
Right. NY
for us. So we still cancelled.OF: Yes.
NY (32:16):
We cancelled more than 50 plays. OF
Yeah. OF
I didn't think about that. In my mind,when you opened, you could just put on
a programme. But if the actors and the artistswere from overseas, then you're still stuck.
Yeah. OF
have a plan A, and then you have a backup plan B?NY: Yeah, we already have C, D, lots of plans.
OF (32:39):
Wow. Yeah. And then, did you find it difficult or were you just focused on your work?
NY (32:48):
I think this was not really difficult for my life. I think every time when we
go outside we must to wear the mask, thatbecame a habit. I think it’s a good habit.
We don’t really have the ‘flu, and other thingsbecome less and less. I think that’s a good habit.
OF (33:12):
Yeah, it just shows the people in China were very adaptable. They adapted very quickly when
Coronavirus hit. And then they adapted veryquickly once it started to be a little bit freer.
NY (33:24):
Yeah. OF
Well, I am releasing this in parallel to theepisode of Zhang Yuan, who was the referral that
you gave me for Season 2.NY: Yeah.
OF (33:36):
I just want to say thank you again, Nick. I'm really glad that you can continue being
part of the Mosaic family.NY: OK, thank you.
[Trailer]ZY: I have done almost
everything in this industry, butnothing has been very successful.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to
Mosaic of China, a podcast about people makingtheir mark in China. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
Thank you for all your feedback fromlast week’s episode with Louise Roy.
(00:22):
It seems like we could do a whole separatepodcast just on women’s health. Today’s episode
is with the artist and art curator Zhang Yuan, andit’s a great conversation. But before we start,
you may have noticed that the @mosaicofchinaInstagram account has suddenly disappeared.
This was a surprise for me too, to say theleast. I’m trying to find out what happened
(00:42):
and get it back online, but in the meantime,you can still follow the images on Facebook
and WeChat. And for subscribers to the PREMIUMversion of the podcast, I’ll start to upload the
images directly onto Patreon from now on. So justhead to the Patreon page for this episode, and
you’ll be able to follow everything there. Thanksto Gautier Squivée for giving me that suggestion.
(01:02):
OK enough of all that, let’s get on with the show.
[Part 1]OF:
I’m here with Yuan, hi Yuan.ZY: Hi, Oscar.
OF (01:11):
So the first thing I want to do is to play you something.
[Start of Audio Clip]Nick YU: His name is Zhang Yuan, the
Maker Zhang. Yeah, we worked in the theatre. Buthe left to be an independent artist. I think his
work is really interesting.[End of Audio Clip]
That was our friend, Nick Yu. ZY
(01:37):
I was called to have an internship in a theatrewhere he worked. They needed a translator to work
between the director and the local team. Andthen he asked “Are you interested in coming
to work in the theatre?” I thought “Yes, why notgive it a try.” Then we worked together for about
(02:04):
four years in this National Theatre.OF: Oh nice. So he basically
was your sponsor into this world?ZY: You could say so. In a way, yes.
Very nice. Well, before we go any further, I would like to know,
what is the object that you have broughtthat in some way typifies your life in China?
ZY (02:25):
A radio. I bought it when I was beginning my years in university. And that's the machine
that I used to connect with the world. Youknow, the VOA - Voice of America - and BBC.
(02:48):
And we used this to learn English, topractice our listening comprehension. And also
emotionally, at that time, I would use itevery morning and every evening before I
go to sleep. So it's kind of like my buddy.OF: Yeah. And it's funny because there was someone
(03:09):
else in last season who chose the same thing.ZY: Really?
OF (03:12):
Yes. His name was Yang Yi. He’s a broadcaster. ZY
And it was exactly the same window that he had. He lived in 安徽 [Ānhuī] Province. And that
was what opened up the world to him. So that'sso nice that there's a connection like that.
ZY (03:25):
Yeah, that's cool. Yeah. OF
because it's very mini.ZY: Mm hmm.
OF (03:31):
Was that a high tech invention back then? ZY
I would say.OF: Yeah.
ZY (03:36):
Yeah. OF
people would have thrown away their old equipment.ZY: The reason why I chose this object today is
that there's some kind of emotional bondbetween me and this small little monster.
Maybe one day I will throw it away, I don'tknow. Because it's not working at the moment.
OF (03:56):
Right. ZY
to be honest, how long I could keep it.OF: Well, let's talk about today then. So
is there a connection between thatradio and what you do today in China?
ZY (04:06):
It helps me, like, my English and the way I see the world and… Yeah, I mean, in a way it helps
me for my life at the moment, but not directly.OF: Yeah. So what is it that you do?
OK, I'm a curator at the moment, working in a museum in Shanghai. It's called Ming Contemporary
(04:34):
Art Museum, McaM. Yeah, it's a private museum,and it was founded by Mingyuan Group - a private
real estate company - in 2015, with the missionto facilitate the exploration of performing arts.
I took the job in 2017 actually, as the performingarts curator in the museum, to support local
(05:00):
artists as well as international collaborations.OF: OK, so that's obviously the connection that
I can make between your work withNick Yu and what you're doing today.
Yeah I was, like, starting my career in this big national theatre with Nick Yu, almost
16 years ago. Then I left that place,and I became an artist… I think,
(05:26):
myself. Yeah, for, I mean, four or five years.Then I started to work with independent artists.
And then there was this special museum, so I tookthe chance, and then I started to work there.
OF (05:43):
Interesting. So you, sort of, are a little bit behind the scenes, but then also, you are an
artist yourself. So you span both worlds?ZY: Yes. I kind of kid to my friends that
I have done almost everything in this industry,but nothing has been very successful. You know,
from the subtitles operator, to translator, tointerpreter, to project manager, to producer,
(06:09):
to artist, and then to curator,presenter, blah blah blah.
And is that a linear line between these career paths? Or is it just random?
ZY (06:21):
If there is a linear line, then I created it myself. But I haven't
got tired of what I'm doing at the moment.OF: Well, let's talk about that. When you say that
you are doing performance arts in a museum, thatto me is confusing, because it's performance art,
but you're doing it in a museum context.ZY: Yes, I'm confused myself.
(06:44):
As you know, I mean, the museum is mostlyfor visual arts - for paintings, for videos,
or installations - and performing arts, aswe know, normally you do it in the theatre.
But there's not a very cleardistinction between the two worlds,
and I think the borders are kind of blurring.And compare to what we see in the theatre or
(07:11):
conventional theatre - particularly drama -the performing arts as we see or participate
in museums are more open, and you have muchmore space or room to try new things. And the
two worlds are learning from each other. As weknow, if you go to a theatre, normally you sit
(07:36):
in the auditorium or in the seat, quite seriously,and you see the performance taking place on stage.
The relationship between the audience andthe performers is one-way, or we call it a
‘proscenium’ performance.OF: Right.
But now they see what things are taking place in the museum, and the museum performance
(07:56):
in the museum, and normally there are manyfocuses. Instead of one leading role - like
the actor or actress that you concentrate on- in the museum, you can choose your focus,
instead of being forced to see what it is.OF: And is that what defines it? Because
(08:17):
it's so hard to define what is ‘performanceart’. It almost sounds like not just a mixture
between theatre and art, but also dance, right?ZY: Yeah, there are more and more choreographers
and dancers who like to engage themselves in thegallery and museum, trying to find a new way with
their language, the dance vocabulary. And theexperience, I would say, is very much different.
(08:43):
As we all talk about nowadays, this‘immersive theatre’ thing you know.
OF (08:49):
Right. ZY
You know, for me, every performance is immersive.If it is not then it is not a performance.
Yeah. As we know, during the COVID-19 situation,there were no performances right? All theatres
shut down, all the museums shut down, and they putthe stuff online. You see performance through the
(09:11):
screen. This kind of performance, I would say,is not immersive, or it is not ‘performance’.
It’s just, at the moment, an alternative, what wehave got used to. Maybe in the future there will
be some new possibility, I do not shut down thispossibility. But at the moment, I’d say, it is not
(09:34):
performance. It’s still more like video art.OF: Right. So what you're saying then is,
a visual art performance is somethingwhich exists very much between the artist
and the audience in that space.ZY: Yeah. And we would not really
call them ‘audience' in a way. I would,like, call them ‘participants’. And artists,
(10:00):
sometimes they are like a‘facilitator’. They're not educating
you. They are trying to share the spacewith you. And without the spectators or
participants, the piece is not complete.OF: Which means it's different every time,
which is similar to a theatre piece, right?ZY: Yeah. Yeah.
Maybe the best way would be to think about some examples of some of the work that you ZY:
(10:28):
A performance called Father's House, a performanceof about 20 hours - three continuous days - 10 to
12 performers, performing with the worksof the exhibition. The artist, they created
this ‘Father's House’, huge installations -paintings, installations, and all kinds of
(10:51):
artworks - which occupies the museum. And thenthere are artists performing with the works.
Right. ZY
As we all know, the exhibition is not moving,right? It's objects. We call it exhibitions,
it's like the presentation of objects. Butperformance is also an exhibition. But it's
(11:14):
a presentation of bodies. You know, it's reallyhard. It's beyond words. You have to see it.
Yeah, this is the trick, like, how do we put something which is so abstract into words?
But you're doing a good job.ZY: I try my best.
I guess my question would be then, so why this art form? Like, even using these examples, what
(11:37):
could the artist achieve using performance art,which they couldn't have achieved using dance,
using theatre, using other forms of visual art?ZY: Everything has its own limits, or borders.
So I think I keep looking for an environment wherethere will be new things that could be initiated,
(12:00):
instead of having to repeat things. It has tobe provocative to be meaningful. Otherwise,
we would be enslaved by consumerism, or whatever.We're not trying to give them the answers,
we’re not Gods. It’s something that helpsyou to find what is wrong with your life.
(12:26):
You need theatre performance to create the bridgethat people would try at least trying to realise
what is behind. I'm not saying performing arts isthe medicine. But at least we create a mirror in
which you could see things, at least see yourself.OF: Provocative has a meaning of, like,
(12:49):
‘counterculture’… it doesn't have to be. It canjust provoke an emotion, right? Provoke anything.
ZY (12:54):
Yeah, you're right. Definitely, I cannot agree with you more. I mean,
it's not really about politics. Notreally, I mean, it’s about your own life,
your own community, the family, everything.It does not have to be about politics.
OF (13:10):
Right, right. ZY
So you are the curator. So you obviously have the power to
bring into this space, the things that you wantto see yourself. Or the things that you think
the people want to see. Like, which one is it?ZY: Yes, very good question. I mean,
I'm not in the mood to please anybody.Because the Museum, it is not commercial.
(13:33):
Oh, great. So that's quite liberating for you. ZY
So it's not about pleasing each other, andit's not catering for what they already know.
So the answer to the question then is, you curate for yourself.
ZY (13:51):
I would not say I curate more for myself, it seems to be that I'm a dictator, no.
And I do not own the place, you know, I'malso an employee, I'm working for someone
behind the museum, you know. But I think this‘someone behind the museum’ is open enough
(14:12):
for me to create something more interesting.Things that you would see in a big theatre,
definitely I would not present. And our location,many people feel it’s a bit far away from the city
centre. So I need a good reason that peoplewould come. So people would have this expectation
(14:34):
that they could not see it elsewhere. Sothis is something I have to keep in mind.
OF (14:40):
And then what kind of feedback do you get from the audience,
from the ‘participants' as you say? Like, doyou hear about how it impacts them? How do
you measure the impact that this work is having?ZY: After every project, we will have a review.
It would not become just a theatre piece, itwould become a project, which means it has
(15:00):
something more. Like, we will createsome installation works. Maybe later,
there will be an exhibition about it. So we extendthe possibility of discussion over this topic.
That's interesting, yeah. Because that's when you can then put it on social media,
you can then have people interactwith it in a different way. So that's
when it has a life beyond just that space.ZY: Yeah. I gradually realised that performance
(15:25):
itself is very ephemeral.OF: Yeah.
ZY (15:28):
It happened, then it's gone. OF
So for each performance, maybe only 100 people. Or 500 at the most. So what?
I mean, compared to live streaming, theworld where we're now living, right?
OF (15:43):
Yeah. ZY
could you expand the influence of this art?OF: That's right. But then at the same time,
that's when it gets harder, becausethe more people you can meet,
the more on the radar you are,and then the more politics, right?
ZY (15:56):
You know me so well. OF
advantage to being under the radar, right?ZY: Yeah, in a way, that's true. So that's
the the conflict, or the paradox, we are facing.OF: Well, that gives you the passion, because
the space itself is the reasonyou can do some of these works.
I mean, tell me about this space. What doesthe space itself bring to the performance?
(16:19):
It used to be a factory called ‘Shanghai Paper Machine
Manufacturer’, something like that. They kept it,without renovation. It's not a white box. And it's
not a black box. It's more like a grey box.OF: Right.
Which gives you the freedom to do both, which makes it interesting.
(16:41):
Almost every artist that I bring to this place,they will feel in love with the place all of
sudden, which gives me more confidence.OF: Well, you mentioned other artists,
so how do you fit into the world ofindependent artists here in Shanghai?
When I was working in the theatre with Nick, I happened to meet kind of a base for independent
(17:05):
artists - particularly performing artists - atthat time. And I happened to know 张献 [Zhāng Xiàn],
小珂 [Xiǎo Kē], and they have a, a…OF: Collective?
A collective of independent artists, we called it, in Chinese we called it 组合嬲 [Zǔhé Niǎo].
So ‘Niao Collective’ would be more precise.OF: Niao. So ‘Niao’, that’s not ‘bird’
(17:30):
right? That's something else.ZY: Yeah, it sounds like ‘bird’. But
the 汉子 [hànzi] is different. And most Chinesecould not recognise what this 汉子 [hànzi] means.
So it combines three characters,there is a male, female, and a male.
OF (17:46):
Oh, very simple. ZY
in different places. With the differentdialects, it has a different interpretation.
It could be meaning ‘playful’, or it could mean‘flirting’, or in some places it means… ‘F’.
Oh, something ruder. ZY
(18:08):
But visually, when you see it, you could seethe vitality of what the character suggests.
Right. And it's open to interpretation. I see how that 汉子 [hànzi] itself is something like a
piece of performative art.ZY: Yes, exactly.
OK, well that's smart. And so now, does that collective still exists?
Like, what form does it take?ZY: It still exists. I mean,
(18:31):
the reason that it still exists isbecause it's not a theatre company.
It's not led by one person.OF: Right, right.
ZY (18:38):
It’s more like a community by some artists who share the same value. It's more project based. So
when any of us has an idea or initiative to dosomething, then we will group people together.
There will be a project or a piece, or someaction or movement. So it's more freestyle.
(18:59):
And one of the founders even suggested thatanyone could use the name Niao Collective,
if they share this value.OF: Nice. That's great.
Well, thank you so much Yuan,ZY: My pleasure.
OF (19:12):
And let's move on to Part 2. ZY
[Part 2]OF: Part 2.
ZY (19:21):
Part 2, OK. OF
what is your favourite China-related fact?ZY: In a way, our society is more like a
performative society. If you really calm yourselfdown, as an observer or as someone outside, then
you observe what is going on these days inChina. It’s theatre. Particularly when you
(19:43):
go outside of China, how they see you as a Chineseand how they see what is happening in China,
then you would feel much more about this.OF: Do you have a favourite word or
phrase in Chinese?ZY: 马马虎虎 [Mǎmǎhǔhǔ].
OF (20:00):
You're the first person to say that. ZY
But that's normally a phrase that foreigners know, more than Chinese. I never hear Chinese
people say that.ZY: Oh really?
Yeah! ZY
kind of my favourite.OF: Can you explain it?
ZY (20:11):
I don't know why, because 马马虎虎 [mǎmǎhǔhǔ] literally means ‘horse horse tiger tiger’.
It means ‘Not doing it well. Not doing ittoo badly. Something in between’. So I think
it’s more like the Chinese. There’s something inthe genes that we don't want to be precise. To
push ourselves too hard. It is not bad, so itstill kind of qualifies. But the reason I like
(20:39):
this is the characters. ‘Horse horse tigertiger’, I don't see a thing about why it is
‘not something great or something not too bad’.OF: So where does it come from, do you know?
No. I would like to keep it a mystery. OF
What is your favourite destination within China?ZY: 大理 [Dàlǐ]. It's like a utopia, or it's like
(21:02):
a hippie place, where you could relaxyourself and to not think too much.
And people seem to think differently. And thereare many artists working there. And I like
the fact that the clouds are so close to you.OF: Oh right, nice. If you left China,
(21:23):
what would you miss the most andwhat would you miss the least?
Traditional Chinese breakfast, particularly Shanghai breakfast. 大饼油条 [Dàbǐng yóutiáo], how do
you call it in English? You know?OF: Yeah, it’s those oily sort of sticks, right?
Yeah. OF
Dough, yeah. For the fat one, there is sweet and salty. For the longer one it’s only
(21:44):
salty, I think.OF: Right. But it's quite oily. Like,
for me, it's too oily.ZY: Ah, OK.
OF (21:49):
Actually Shanghai food has a very bad rap in China, right?
ZY (21:53):
I don't think so. OF
I talk to somebody not from Shanghai,they always complain about Shanghai food.
Too sweet? OF
They haven't tried, like, the food in 无锡 [Wúxī] or
in 江苏 [Jiāngsū] Province. It’s sweeter.OF: Really, OK. And anything that you would
not miss if you left?ZY: The noise.
OF (22:14):
Right. ZY
there’s this noise. Something being demolished.Something being constructed. You move to a new
house, and your neighbour is renovating… ach!OF: Is there something that still surprises
you about modern life in China?ZY: Technology. But in a way you
(22:37):
know I mean, I believe we cannot live withouttechnology. The philosopher who just passed away,
Bernard Stiegler, he just said technology is thepoison. But on the other hand it’s the solution.
So you have to get along with it.OF: What is the best or worst
purchase you have recently made?ZY: So, I love this experience when I work with
(22:59):
some artist and they would give their piece ofwork to me as a gift. So I appreciate that a lot,
I will say, this kind of ‘economy of gifts’.OF: I love that, thank you. What is your favourite
place to go out, to eat or drink or just hang out?ZY: So that would be home. I mean, ‘home’ means
(23:20):
my home and my friends’ home. And I even thinkof curating something about that in the future.
We can blur the border of public andprivacy, if we can bring performers
to people's homes. That's what I mean.OF: Mmm. What is your favourite WeChat sticker?
ZY (23:38):
Let me send you. OF
Now hang on, let me see, it says‘大脑一片空白 [dànǎo yīpiàn kòngbái]’.
Yes. OF
could read it. What does that mean?ZY: That means “nothing in my head”.
Or “I cannot think of anything”.OF: Oh, I like it. So if somebody
(23:58):
asks you a question, you don't want toor you can't answer, you just send that.
Yeah, yeah. It's like, when there's nothing on the TV screen.
OF (24:05):
Great. important one
ZY (24:11):
I hate KTV. OF
are you never tempted to have a sing?ZY: Of course I would,
they would coerce me to sing.OF: That’s it.
You know, I would sing ‘You Are Not Alone’. OF
You know that? OF
Yes. Yes. OF
Cuz people, I mean, when you group together and you’re singing karaoke,
(24:33):
you are lonely in a way. Yeah, but you'resaying you're not alone. Yeah, for me, it’s…
OF (24:39):
Ah, so it really touched your heart, actually. ZY
itself is touching. Yeah, it’s a good song, yeah.OF: Thank you. And finally, what China-related
media or sources of information do you use?ZY: I have to confess, I read no more papers.
I mean, journals, magazines,all these sort of thing.
(25:01):
Yeah. ZY
getting information through social media.OF: Yeah. And so even in a specific niche
like contemporary art, everyonestill just relies on WeChat, right?
ZY (25:10):
Yeah. There are periodicals, but I don't think people are reading it seriously. People will take
a look, but they will not spend much time on it.OF: Well, thank you so much, Yuan,
I really enjoyed that.ZY: Thank you. I enjoyed it,
too. It's really hard for a Chinese to talkabout China when he is living in China.
OF (25:29):
Yes. ZY
It's hard to see the true face of LushanMountain when you are in the mountain.
OF Right, I like it.ZY: And what I'm talking about at the moment,
I think, is mostly to my life experiencein Shanghai. And Shanghai, to my knowledge,
(25:50):
is not China.OF: Yeah.
ZY (25:51):
It’s like New York is not America or Berlin is not Germany, in a way. But more,
Shanghai is not China.OF: Absolutely. I mean,
Shanghai has more in common with New Yorkthan it has with Anhui Province, right?
Indeed. OF
Finally, the only thing I want to ask you is, out of all the people you know in China,
who would you recommend that I interviewin the next season of Mosaic of China?
OF (26:15):
I would introduce Mr. Wang Yiquan. We all call him ‘Xiaoquan’. And now I call him ‘Mr.
President’. He is awesome. He's not only anartist, not only a curator, but he is also an
entrepreneur. He was born in Beijing. You knowthe story between the North and the South.
(26:40):
People in the South will not live in the North,North would not live in the South. But he,
as a Beijing-nese, chose to live in Shanghai,and became very active. So I think he's special.
Thank you. I look forward to meeting ‘Xiaoquan’, maybe I shouldn't call him that.
Thanks very much.ZY: Thank you.
[Outro]OF:
(27:04):
Another big thanks to Zhang Yuan, least ofall for being the first person to mention the
phrase 马马虎虎 [mǎmǎhǔhǔ] meaning ‘so-so’. I hadbeen expecting someone to say this phrase long
before Episode 07 of Season 02, it’s definitely afavourite, especially among foreigners in China. I
did my research, and this phrase apparently datesback to a story from the 宋 Sòng Dynasty, so that’s
(27:25):
around 1,000AD. The story goes that an artistwas painting a tiger when his friend came and
asked him to paint a horse. Instead of starting anew picture, the artist simply drew the body of a
horse onto the tiger’s head that he had alreadypainted. The outcome was… meh: 马马虎虎 [mǎmǎhǔhǔ].
The other thing I wanted to clarify was theproper translation of 大饼油条 [Dàbǐng yóutiáo],
(27:48):
the Shanghai breakfast food that Yuan said hewould miss the most if he left China. The best
translation for this should actually be 'flatbreadfritters' rather than what I said, which was
'those oily sort of sticks’. So there you go,that was me being decidedly 马马虎虎 [mǎmǎhǔhǔ].
OK here are some clips from the PREMIUMversion of the show, please subscribe at
(28:10):
https://patreon.com/mosaicofchina ifyou want to hear the full interview.
[Clip 1]ZY: Private museums became a phenomenon.
And no one knows how long it will last.OF: Oh right.
[Clip 2]ZY: We are recreating the life of ‘leftover' girls
in China…OF: Oh yes.
ZY (28:27):
… Inspired by Ibsen’s play. [Clip 3]
These people, these new members, they will create their own festivals.
OF (28:34):
Nice. [Clip 4]
ZY (28:36):
So in this respect, I'm very much provocative. [Clip 5]
It’s kind of that I got a marriage, you know. I married my parents
during these three or four months.[End of Audio Clips]
And finally, today’s random connectionwith an episode from the past
is that Yuan’s favourite karaoke song, MichaelJackson’s ‘You Are Not Alone’ is exactly the
(28:58):
same as the song chosen by Astrid Poghosyan,the violinist from Season 01 Episode 04.
I could never have predicted that, out of all thethings that would come up twice in this podcast,
it would be Guns N' Roses last week, and MichaelJackson today. You guys make me want to scream.
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs,with artwork by Denny Newell.
(29:21):
Coming up is an excerpt from my catch-up chat withNick Yu from the Shanghai Dramatic Arts Centre.
And please listen to Nick’sfull episode from Season 01
if you thought I was just being mean to Yuanabout the reputation for Shanghainese food.
Nick is very clear about his opinion onthe matter. Also, we’ll be taking a break
for a few weeks now, as we’re heading into theChinese New Year period. So 恭喜发财 [gōngxǐ fācái]
(29:45):
and 春节快乐 [chūnjié kuàilè] to all of you, andI’ll see you back here again later in February.
[Catch-Up Interview]OF:
So hello, Nick.Nick Yu: Hi, Oscar.
OF (30:05):
Nice to see you. NY
Yeah, you work about 100 metres from my house. NY
So whenever I walk past the Dramatic Arts Theatre, I always think of you,
I always look for you, but I neversee you. You're always busy inside.
NY (30:22):
Somewhere. OF
life since we did our first recording.NY: Yeah.
OF (30:30):
The first thing I wanted to ask you was, so during Coronavirus, how many plays did you write?
NY (30:38):
Ah, yeah, that's a really good question. Because, you know, especially in February,
the whole month, I stayed at home alone. So Ihad plenty of time to write, to read. And also I
finished my PhD in February.OF: What?
Yeah. OF
(30:59):
Thank you. And also I wrote about four plays. OF
Yeah. OF
they were very creative, and other people, theywere blocked and they could not create anything.
Yeah. OF
in creating. Of course, I knew you would be.NY: I have two different parts. The one
(31:22):
part was with the theatre being closed. But weneeded to prepare, and we needed to deal with
all the things that happened during that time.That makes us do everything for the audience, how
to get the audience back. We cannot do everythingonline. During that period, we still had something
(31:42):
to try. So we tried everything to try to getthe audience to go back to the theatre. But now,
the situation seems to get better and better.OF: Right. And this is where we in China are in
a luckier position then many people outside.NY: Yeah. For us, because we have lots of
programming we decided one year ahead.OF: Yeah, right, you plan so far ahead.
(32:08):
Yeah. But we have a lot of artists from abroad.
OF (32:11):
Right. NY
for us. So we still cancelled.OF: Yes.
NY (32:16):
We cancelled more than 50 plays. OF
Yeah. OF
I didn't think about that. In my mind,when you opened, you could just put on
a programme. But if the actors and the artistswere from overseas, then you're still stuck.
Yeah. OF
have a plan A, and then you have a backup plan B?NY: Yeah, we already have C, D, lots of plans.
OF (32:39):
Wow. Yeah. And then, did you find it difficult or were you just focused on your work?
NY (32:48):
I think this was not really difficult for my life. I think every time when we
go outside we must to wear the mask, thatbecame a habit. I think it’s a good habit.
We don’t really have the ‘flu, and other thingsbecome less and less. I think that’s a good habit.
OF (33:12):
Yeah, it just shows the people in China were very adaptable. They adapted very quickly when
Coronavirus hit. And then they adapted veryquickly once it started to be a little bit freer.
NY (33:24):
Yeah. OF
Well, I am releasing this in parallel to theepisode of Zhang Yuan, who was the referral that
you gave me for Season 2.NY: Yeah.
OF (33:36):
I just want to say thank you again, Nick. I'm really glad that you can continue being
part of the Mosaic family.NY: OK, thank you.
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