The Sleep Coach (Rumbiey MUCHENJE, Purposely Healthy)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
[Trailer]RM: It could be a boss who's just vile.
For Christmas, give them a pillow.
You know?
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina.
I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
Long-term listeners of the show may have noticedthat I don’t have consultants as guests

(00:23):
on Mosaic of China.
I only really want to speak with practitioners,in one form or another.
So no consultants, no strategists, no advisors,no opinion-mongers, no coaches.
But today I’ve made an exception to thisrule, because my guest Rumbiey is a coach.
One in the very specific field of sleep, whichI find fascinating, as I’m sure you’ll

(00:46):
pick up on in our conversation.
And you’ll also pick up on the fact thatshe speaks not just as a coach, but as someone
whose personal background dictates that sheis also a practitioner of what she preaches.
One more thing to point out, is that today’sepisode is a little longer than usual.
Maybe you’re thinking that I just got abit lazy with the editing this week.

(01:07):
But no, I edited it down to the very lastpipsqueak!
We just had so much ground to cover.
In fact, I would recommend stopping rightnow and downloading the PREMIUM version of
today’s show, for the full-length interviewwhich has an extra 30 minutes of content.
Head to mosaicofchina.com for instructionson how to download that.
But if you can’t be bothered, I supposeit’s OK.

(01:28):
I’ll try not to lose sleep over it.
[Part 1]OF: Thank you for coming, Rumbiey.

RM (01:34):
Thank you for having me.

OF (01:35):
And your full name is Rumbidzai Muchenje.

RM (01:37):
You got it so well.

OF (01:39):
Oh listen, I've had harder names to pronounce.
That is an unusual name.
So first of all, where are you from originally?

RM (01:45):
I'm from Zimbabwe.

OF (01:46):
And I only know two places in Zimbabwe, Harare or Bulawayo.

RM (01:49):
I'm from Harare.

OF (01:51):
Phew.
OK, good.
And very briefly, what is it that you do inChina?

RM (01:56):
I am a health and sleep coach.

OF (01:58):
A health and sleep coach.
Very good.
Well, maybe now is the right time for me tosay that we are doing this recording in my
apartment.

RM (02:07):
Yeah.

OF (02:08):
Because the studio wasn't available.
And many people have done recordings in thisapartment.
In fact, I've had the president of DisneylandShanghai sitting in that very seat.

RM (02:17):
Oh wow.

OF (02:18):
And the reason why I'm embarrassed to say that is because we're actually in my bedroom.
Because it's the quietest place in my apartment.

RM (02:24):
And it's a gorgeous bedroom.

OF (02:26):
I'm revealing the secret because you're a sleep coach.

RM (02:29):
Mmm-hmm.

OF (02:30):
So for the first time, it's actually quite relevant that we're doing the recording in
this environment.

RM (02:35):
Exactly.
True story.

OF (02:37):
Well, before we go on then, what is the object that you have brought that in some
way describes your life in China?

RM (02:45):
Alright, so the object that I've brought is…

OF (02:48):
Oh, it's a little package.

RM (02:50):
It is.

OF (02:51):
OK.
Let me open this.

RM (02:53):
Go wild.

OF (02:54):
Here we go.
So there's more than one object.

RM (02:56):
There are three objects in there.

OF (02:58):
Oh, OK.
So why don't I hold this up, and you tellme what this is.

RM (03:01):
That is a night mist.

OF (03:03):
Heather, right?

RM (03:05):
Right.

OF (03:06):
What is this?

RM (03:07):
So those are shower melts.
So, think bath bombs.

OF (03:10):
Yes.

RM (03:11):
But for showers.

OF (03:12):
Oh, it's minty!

RM (03:13):
It is.
So this one specifically is Cypress.
These are perfect to unclog yourself in themorning.

OF (03:21):
I see.
And the final one?

RM (03:23):
And those ones are foot soaks.

OF (03:24):
OK.

RM (03:25):
So ordinarily, a lot of soak salts have been used for the bathtub.
And the catch is, a lot of people here inShanghai just don't have the luxury of a bathtub.

OF (03:35):
You’ve seen my place, I haven't got a bath.

RM (03:38):
Right.
And, you know, it's annoying.
Because you want to reduce your core temperaturein the evening, so you can actually fall asleep.
And those soak salts are amazing for you,if you just soak in your feet.

OF (03:50):
Well, this is obviously a prelude to our conversation here.

RM (03:54):
Absolutely.

OF (03:55):
All of these things are to do with sleep.
Are these products that you yourself create?

RM (03:59):
These are my creations.
Because we need something physical to hangon to, as we do a routine.
It clicks better, because it activates oneof your senses.

OF (04:09):
So basically, it's not the core of what you do.
But these are little amulets…

RM (04:13):
Absolutely.

OF (04:14):
… That help put in your brain the stuff that you're trying to do with your coaching.

RM (04:18):
Yes.

OF (04:19):
Oh, I see.

RM (04:20):
Exactly.

OF (04:21):
OK, well what is sleep coaching exactly?
What is the purpose of it, why do we needto talk about it?

RM (04:26):
So, sleep coaching sounds as obvious as it is.
But it's so complicated.
Because sleep in itself is very complicated.
So it's very holistic, because at the endof the day, if you're trying to fix your sleep,
and you're not addressing everything elsesurrounding your sleep, you're likely not
going to change it at all.

OF (04:45):
Yes, when I've encountered this topic, it has been in the context of, let's say,
at the gym.
Where my trainer will say “Listen, I'llteach you stuff in the gym, but you have to
also work on your nutrition…”

RM (04:56):
Right.

OF (04:57):
“… And work on your sleep, at the same time.”
And you're like “Aha, yep, yep, yep.
Whatever.’
It's very straightforward and obvious.
But then, what does it actually mean?
Or let's say you're at a doctor's office,and they give you your treatment, and they
say “Make sure you also rest well.”

RM (05:11):
Right.

OF (05:12):
And it's just a kind of throwaway thing which is like “Well duh, of course.”

RM (05:14):
Exactly.

OF (05:15):
But if I'm not resting well, how do I fix that?
So what is the basic fundamental science behindsleep?

RM (05:21):
Oh, there’s quite a bit now.
What is fascinating about sleep science isthat only 40 years ago did scientists actually
start to truly try to figure it out.
And I think it's still that element, thatit's because it's something that is so obvious,
that it didn't really warrant too much attention.
And I think a lot of the scientists and doctorsout there hadn't really put all the dots together,

(05:44):
to see how sleep actually really affects everything.
Everything in your life.
So let's talk about sleep quality, versussleep quantity.

OF (05:53):
OK.

RM (05:54):
You can go on Google, and you can just ask “How many hours should I sleep?

OF (05:58):
Yes.

RM (05:59):
And it'll tell you 7-8 hours.
But not everybody actually will get 7-8 hours,it is also very individual.
You could do just right with seven hours,and that's not a problem.
For another person, it could be nine hours.
Also what is your lifestyle like?
If you are training - for example, for a marathon,or you're some kind of athlete - you're likely

(06:22):
to need a little more sleep, because you'reprobably using a lot of your energy during
the day.

Also, your health condition (06:28):
are you a healthy person, or are you sick?
Because that obviously dramatically changesthe way you sleep.

OF (06:36):
So just on the topic of quantity, let me jump in with what that makes me think.
In the zeitgeist, there’s almost a badgeof honour by saying “Oh, I can get by with
just four hours.”

RM (06:46):
Oh god, yes.

OF (06:47):
Right?
That must be something which you fight againstimmediately.

RM (06:50):
All the time.
And I think it's also something that we havebuilt up, simply because we want to get more
things done.
A lot of my clients, for example, are high-performanceexecutives, and these people have to work
really hard.
For them, the more time they have to work,the better.
Even if it means sacrificing their sleep.

OF (07:11):
Yes.
And then if that is the message that theysend to the rest of their organisations…

RM (07:15):
Exactly, exactly.

OF (07:16):
… It just spreads that culture down.

RM (07:18):
Right, especially if you look at specific industries, like the tech industry.

OF (07:22):
Right.

RM (07:23):
Unfortunately if you are sleeping anything less than six hours, you are drastically reducing
your productivity.

OF (07:31):
And there's no way around that?

RM (07:32):
There's no way around it.
Because sleep deprivation is a little bitlike alcohol.
It changes the way you perceive things.
So if somebody is drunk, they can say “Oh,of course I can drive.”Sleep does the exact
same thing.
It makes you think and believe that you canfunction.
And so you don't notice the little mistakesthat you do, how clumsy you become, how fatigued

(07:55):
you actually are, and that your focus andconcentration is like “Poof!”

OF (07:59):
I feel what you're saying.
The way that I like to visualise that is whereyou have your line of equilibrium.
And then if you're slightly sleep deprived,your line veers slightly, but it's so small
that you don't really notice it.

RM (08:13):
Exactly.

OF (08:14):
And then before long, you are so off your equilibrium.

RM (08:16):
Absolutely.

OF (08:17):
But you don’t realise it.

RM (08:18):
There’s actually a new term now, which is ‘sleep drunk’.

OF (08:21):
Oh.

RM (08:22):
And they've been doing studies in the U.S. - and I think a few in the UK as well
- where they've been looking at the numberof car accidents that were happening over
a certain period of time.
And the automatic reaction to that was like“Oh, people are drinking again.”
But actually, when these people were givenbreathalysers, they had zero alcohol content
in their system.

OF (08:42):
Right, right.

RM (08:43):
Which was absolutely wild.
Because then everybody was like "Why are theybeing involved in such clumsy - sometimes,
unfortunately, catastrophic - accidents?”

OF (08:52):
Yeah.

RM (08:53):
And they only realised after doing tests - and asking them more questions, and things
like that - it turns out either they willcompletely sleep deprived, or they were on
sleep medication.

OF (09:02):
Oh, and sleep medication makes you drunk as well?

RM (09:05):
Absolutely.
Unfortunately, what sleep medication does- especially if it's used over a long period
of time - it actually starts to inhibit yoursenses.
So just like alcohol.
So while it can get you to sleep, it sedatesyou, it doesn't necessarily give you quality
sleep.
Because when you look at the stages of sleep,you go through 4-5 stages.

(09:27):
Actually, every night you go through thatcycle three or four times.
But each cycle is about 4-5 stages.
That's where scientists have come up with7-8 hours, because each cycle - going through
the five stages - is roughly 90 minutes to110 minutes.
People that aren't sleeping very well arenot having quality sleep.
And quality sleep means it hasn't been inducedby something external.

(09:52):
Because we work with a circadian clock, likean internal clock.
Think of opening up a Swiss watch, and it'sgot all of these little parts all turning…

OF (10:01):
Ah yes.

RM (10:02):
… At different times, different lengths.
When all of that is happening correctly, youhave perfect time.

OF (10:09):
Yes.

RM (10:10):
So that's exactly how our bodies work.
Our heart has its own cycle, our kidneys havetheir own cycles, our liver, everything has
its own cycle.
Even our brain has cycles.
So if you are overstimulating your brain pastbedtime, then you're not allowing it to fully
do its job, which is not just thinking.

(10:34):
From the minute you wake up, your brain startsto produce a waste product called adenosine.

OF (10:39):
OK.

RM (10:40):
As you go through the day, the more adenosine is accumulating.
Now, why is this important?
Adenosine is called a sleep pressure, it makesyou want to sleep, it gets you tired.

OF (10:51):
Oh.

RM (10:52):
If you are not sleeping well, either you're going to have too much adenosine - so you're
going to be so sleepy during the day - oryou're going to have no adenosine.

OF (11:04):
To make you feel sleepy again.

RM (11:05):
To make you feel sleepy again.

OF (11:07):
Hmm.
When you talked originally about how it'sall holistic…

RM (11:10):
Yeah.

OF (11:11):
… We’ve gone full-circle, right?

RM (11:12):
Yeah.

OF (11:13):
Because there was this thought that “Oh, that's so basic.
We're now so much more sophisticated.”

RM (11:17):
Yes.

OF (11:18):
And then you kind of forget the fundamentals.

RM (11:19):
Exactly.

OF (11:20):
And then now we're kind of like “Oh, wait a minute…”

RM (11:22):
We need the fundamentals.

OF (11:23):
Yeah.

RM (11:24):
We are going backwards.
And it's not necessarily a bad thing.

OF (11:27):
Because this is the thing, right?
I mean, when I think about the complexitythat we’ve built into our lives.
Compared to just waking up in a cave, bashinga small mammal, eating it…

RM (11:36):
Exactly.
And eating just enough.

OF (11:38):
Aha.

RM (11:39):
We were not even keeping anything.

OF (11:41):
Well let's talk about diet, then.
What is the connection between diet and sleep?

RM (11:44):
So, diet is directly connected to your gut, obviously.
And apart from your brain and your heart,the gut is king.
If your gut is not OK, nothing is OK.

OF (11:58):
Hmm.

RM (11:59):
Three quarters of our hormones are actually manufactured - or at least the process begins
- in the gut.

OF (12:06):
Oh, really.

RM (12:07):
So even your immune system, we used to think 100% of your immune system is made in
your bone marrow and in your spinal cord,that's not actually true.

OF (12:15):
It starts in your gut.

RM (12:16):
It starts in your gut.

OF (12:18):
Interesting.

RM (12:19):
So if your diet is terrible, any of the hormones that are being manufactured are not
going to be good quality.
Your nutrition is key to maintain, obviously,good health.
But in this aspect - because we're speakingabout sleep - you must have a good diet.
And a good diet isn't a keto diet, an alkalinediet, it doesn't have a name.

(12:43):
A good diet just means you know exactly whatworks for your body, and you're eating enough
for your body, and you're eating at the righttime for your body.

OF (12:53):
Yes, the time thing is interesting, because then this links back to what we were talking
about with cycles.

RM (12:57):
Right, exactly.
You have to be consistent.
Our bodies are very good at keeping patterns.
So if you are messing around with your diet- on Monday you have breakfast at 8, on Tuesday
you have breakfast at 11 - not only are youpotentially confusing your stomach in terms
of the enzymic releases, you are really confusingyour brain to understand “When am I expecting

(13:22):
to eat?”
So this is where people are overeating.
Your brain now doesn't even know when it shouldtell you that “We're hungry” or "We're
full”.
And because you're overeating, you're likelyhaving too much sugar.
Because usually when we're overeating rarely- very rarely - are we eating…

OF (13:40):
Celery.

RM (13:41):
No.
That is not what we are doing.

OF (13:43):
“Oh you know what, today I had so much cucumber.”
Yeah, I've never heard that.

RM (13:49):
No.
So unfortunately if somebody is overeating,it’s going to directly affect your sleep
cycle.
Because sugar on its own is actually a stimulant.

OF (14:00):
Right.

RM (14:01):
So your diet plays an immense role.

OF (14:04):
Yup.
OK.
So, you know…
As we're talking about this, you’ll hearthe way that I'm reacting is like “Yep.
Yep, yep, yep.”
It’s because none of this is rocket science.
But you have to kind of be a superhero toactually manage all of these things together.
This is my experience of finding out aboutsleep.
It’s that I do the research, I found outall this stuff already on Google, but it's

(14:25):
such a cascade of information.

RM (14:26):
Yes.

OF (14:27):
It’s presented in all this way that no-one can possibly do it all.

RM (14:30):
Exactly.

OF (14:31):
And this is why I think you'd need a coach to manifest these different things.

RM (14:34):
Right.
Precisely, precisely.

OF (14:36):
So let's keep on going through this impossible list of things that affects sleep.
We’re sitting in my bedroom, what is itin terms of a bedroom that can either help
or hinder your sleep?

RM (14:46):
OK.
So for your bedroom, number one is light.

OF (14:51):
Because our body is set to wake up with light.

RM (14:55):
Yeah.

OF (14:56):
Go to bed in the dark.

RM (14:57):
Right, right.
So unfortunately, if you're living in a citylike Shanghai - that is this big, this loud,
this bright - then the chances are, your sleepcycle is going to be quite warped.
So make sure you've got dark curtains.
Because even at night some light is goingto seep in through, because there's some person

(15:18):
who's up at 1am and they've switched on theirlight right next door.
Or maybe you live right next to some kindof street lamp or something like that.

OF (15:27):
Yeah, absolutely.

RM (15:28):
So the darker and heavier your curtains, the better.
And again, with the light, you want to makesure that the lamps in your bedroom, they
are more of an orange hue…

OF (15:40):
Yes.

RM (15:41):
… Than they are of a white/bluish hue.
When they discovered fluorescent light, theiridea was to make electricity affordable to
a broader range of people.

OF (15:52):
Right.

RM (15:53):
Noble idea.
Terrible terrible thing for sleep.

OF (15:56):
OK, yeah.

RM (15:57):
Because unfortunately, fluorescent light mimics the sun in terms of blue light, which
is like essentially what you get from thesun when you wake up in the morning.
It immediately increases your serotonin andreduces your melatonin.

OF (16:12):
At a time when you should be winding down.

RM (16:15):
At a time when you should be winding down.

OF (16:16):
Yeah, yeah.
What else do we look at?

RM (16:18):
So then we look at the sound.

OF (16:19):
Ah.

RM (16:20):
How quiet is your bedroom.
Because we are actually way more attentivewhen we are sleeping - in terms of sound - than
we are actually when we're awake.

OF (16:30):
Oh I see.
Yes, because there's no other stimulus…

RM (16:32):
Exactly.

OF (16:33):
… And your ears are tweaking like radars.

RM (16:34):
Righto, righto.

OF (16:35):
Here's where I think I fail.
Because sometimes I will fall asleep witha podcast in my ears.
Not my own, because mine is so interesting.
I would never ever possibly fall asleep tosomething so interesting as this.
But I've got into the habit sometimes of justhaving that quieten the voices in my head.

(16:57):
And that gives me that sense of calming andhelps me sleep.
But that's not good, you’re saying.

RM (17:02):
No.

OF (17:03):
OK, and is that common?

RM (17:04):
Very.
Extremely, actually.
Because it does give you that calming feeling.
Like, I love to listen to rain sounds, forexample.

OF (17:13):
OK yeah, well that's better, I would say.

RM (17:15):
Right, but you have to put a timer on it, between 10-15 minutes.
Because if it goes longer than that, now you'regetting into proper sleep.

Because 20 minutes is ‘nap sleep’ (17:26):
first and second stage.
That's pretty OK.
But it is a stimulus.
So it will still do something, because it'snot like your ears are dead when you're asleep.
So now it is no longer meeting the purposeanymore.

OF (17:45):
And yet it is still trying to mess up with your natural rhythms.

RM (17:49):
Yes, right.
Because now it's not doing what it's supposedto do.

OF (17:51):
Yeah, I sort of now feel like it's become a crutch.

RM (17:54):
Yeah.

OF (17:55):
And that's something which is bad, right?

RM (17:56):
Exactly.

OF (17:57):
Is it the same with reading a book?
It’s not, right?

RM (17:59):
Yes.

OF (18:00):
It’s the same?

RM (18:01):
Yes.

OF (18:02):
Because it could be an exciting book, is what you mean.

RM (18:03):
Yeah.
So with books, the number one thing to dois to make sure you're not reading in bed.

OF (18:07):
That's such a trope that you should read in bed!

RM (18:10):
No, not in bed.

OF (18:11):
OK, interesting.

RM (18:12):
You can read if you must, but maybe on a sofa.
Just try not to do it on the bed.
It just goes back to pattern creations.
If you are creating a pattern that you'redoing every other day, that's what your brain
now knows.
And moving away from that, it will fight youhard.

OF (18:30):
This is the thing, right?

RM (18:31):
Yeah.

OF (18:32):
Because we all want the easy fix.

RM (18:33):
Of course.

OF (18:34):
And none of us are going to say “Right, I need to completely change all of my patterns
in life.”

RM (18:39):
Yeah, yeah.

OF (18:40):
Ach.

RM (18:41):
Yeah.
See, the thing is, I feel like today's societyis a microwave society.
We are so used to just having things at ourfingertips.

OF (18:50):
Yes.

RM (18:51):
So putting in the work is not something that we want to do at all.

OF (18:56):
Yes.
And as you say that, it makes me think abouthow often on this podcast people talk about
China in the sense of convenience.

RM (19:03):
Yes.

OF (19:04):
It's become the baseline.

RM (19:05):
Right.

OF (19:06):
There's a problem, diagnose it, fix it.

RM (19:08):
Exactly.
Everything is at our fingertips.

OF (19:10):
Which you could say about modern society everywhere in the world…

RM (19:13):
Absolutely.

OF (19:14):
… I just think it's heightened in China, right?

RM (19:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I don't think there's anywhere else like China.
Oh god.

OF (19:18):
Yeah.

RM (19:19):
But because of that concept, even with health coaching it's exactly the same thing.
Because you're saying to somebody “You wantto be better.
But this is the price to pay.
Are you willing to pay it?”
And usually it's “No.”

OF (19:34):
Yeah because this is it, right?
If you want to have a lifestyle that is regular,it’s kind of formulaic, it's kind of boring.
Like, you are espousing a boring life.

RM (19:46):
Maybe.
Usually the resistance just comes from thefact that I'm now doing something different,
something that I'm not used to.

OF (19:53):
Yeah, RM
it's just “Ach.”
You know, the mental challenge of just nowsaying “I have to wake up in the morning
and go to the gym, instead of laying in beduntil eight o’clock."
Yes, any kind of change to a routine that you are settled in.

RM (20:08):
Yeah.

OF (20:09):
And even though I'm coming to you complaining about my sleep, I don't want to actually do
the work, yeah.

RM (20:13):
Exactly.
Oh, gosh, I can't tell you.
I've had to fire clients.
Really.

OF (20:17):
Yeah.

RM (20:18):
Because you realise that they are in love with the idea of having a sleep coach and
fixing their sleep.
They're absolutely in love with it.
But they have not committed to actually makingthe changes.

OF (20:30):
Yeah.

RM (20:31):
And I mean, it's not necessarily their fault.
It just could be that they’re just genuinelynot ready.

OF (20:35):
Yeah.

RM (20:36):
And so for me in that situation, I'm like…

OF (20:37):
“There’s not much I can do,” yeah.

RM (20:39):
There's not a lot I can do.

OF (20:40):
Yeah.

RM (20:41):
Yeah.

OF (20:42):
We've talked about noise, we’ve talked about light, is there anything else we can
lump on top of this?

RM (20:46):
Well there's always a lot more.

OF (20:48):
Oh my god.

RM (20:50):
Cleanliness.
And this is not about the dust element.
But how clean are you?
If your surroundings are ‘clutter, clutter,clutter’, the chances of you being calm
are totally slimmer.

OF (21:02):
When you have a decluttered place, when your inbox is decluttered, that stuff definitely
calms me down.

RM (21:09):
Absolutely.

OF (21:10):
Yeah.

RM (21:11):
And I think that's the thing, right?

Like, we don't necessarily put those two together: clutter with sleep. (21:12):
undefined
Because they seem so far from each other.

OF (21:20):
Right.

RM (21:21):
But actually, it is about our five senses.
They are constantly feeding our brains.

OF (21:27):
Oh, even subconsciously, right?

RM (21:28):
Even subconsciously.

OF (21:29):
Yeah.

RM (21:30):
They’re constantly feeding our brains with some form of information.
Also, if you are not bothered by clutter,we probably need to talk about a few things.
Because that on its own is an indication thatyou might have some mental health challenge.

OF (21:47):
So this is where we go into the whole emotional and mental side of sleep.

RM (21:51):
Yeah, yeah.

OF (21:52):
Because it's not just the physical side.

RM (21:53):
Right.

OF (21:54):
And it's not even just the chemical side.

RM (21:55):
No.

OF (21:56):
We’re talking now about our mental wellbeing.
Another topic we all know about, right?
I'm stressed out about something.
And of course, I can't sleep properly.

RM (22:02):
Right.

OF (22:03):
And so this is why you call yourself a sleep ‘coach’.

RM (22:06):
Yes.

OF (22:07):
So let's start to talk about this then.
So how the hell do you diagnose which of thesemillion things…

RM (22:13):
… Is the problem.

OF (22:14):
… Is causing bad sleep?
Because it must be everything at once.
I'm sure that people come in and just say“Help.”
And then how do you figure out what's goingon?

RM (22:23):
The first thing that we do is, we do a discovery session.
And the discovery session is anywhere betweenan hour to two hours.
I've actually had longer than that, becausethey had a lot to unpack.

OF (22:34):
I can imagine.
Because, you know, this conversation is goingto be probably two hours.

RM (22:38):
Yeah.
And in the discovery session, I have a setof questions.
And a lot of them help me to understand ifyou have more of a pathological situation
going on, or it's really a lifestyle situation.
Are you working out?
If you are, what time are you working out?
What time are you having your dinner?
What do your weekends look like?
But really, it's when you're having a conversationthat you actually start to go deeper.

(23:03):
I had a client tell me that they did not realisethat they had a horrible sleep culture until
I asked them about their sleep culture.

OF (23:13):
What do you mean by the culture?

RM (23:15):
So in my region - where I grew up - what do people believe about sleep?
What do people actually do?
Take for example people from Spain, they havesiestas.
That is an absolutely normal thing.
In my country, not normal.

OF (23:31):
But you're not saying “Good” or “Bad” here.

RM (23:32):
No, no, no, no.
I’m just trying to understand how you conceptualisesleep.

OF (23:37):
Interesting.

RM (23:38):
Because that will also allow me to understand how best to even approach sleep with you.

OF (23:45):
And what is the general concept of sleep in China, since we're here?

RM (23:49):
That's actually very interesting, because I've seen a few variations.

OF (23:52):
Sure.

RM (23:53):
So the first one is, if I am dealing with somebody who is a high-earning individual,
then it is the typical ‘Work, work, work,work, work.
Rest when I die.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah’.
Then you've got the mums.
And the mums here are burnt out, they arejust as affected as their kids are ,when it
comes to the schoolwork and all of that stuff.

OF (24:15):
And they’re worried about their kids so much.

RM (24:17):
And they're very worried about their kids as well.
So there’s that.

OF (24:20):
Right, because of the competitive nature of getting into the right school, blah blah
blah.

RM (24:24):
Absolutely.
So often in my coaching, I do a lot more stresscoaching than I do sleep coaching.
That has been something that has almost evolvedon its own, because I did not necessarily
target stressed people.

OF (24:36):
But that's just coming out in the questionnaires.

RM (24:38):
It’s coming up in the questionnaires, it's coming up in the direct relatedness of
sleep and stress.

OF (24:44):
Which then goes into the whole family situation.

RM (24:47):
Yeah.

OF (24:48):
And then suddenly you’re a marriage guidance counsellor.

RM (24:50):
And I'm just like “Well, I need to send you to a good friend of mine.
She's a relationship coach.”

OF (24:55):
Because it's so broad…

RM (24:57):
Yeah.

OF (24:58):
… This must happen quite a lot.
Like you go through a kind of funnel.
And then at the end you’re like “Right,I've done all that I can do…”

RM (25:02):
Yeah.

OF (25:03):
“… Now you have to go to a hospital…”

RM (25:04):
Exactly.

OF (25:05):
“… Now you have to go to a different coach.…”

RM (25:06):
Yeah.

OF (25:07):
“… Now you have to go to a dietician.”

RM (25:08):
Exactly.
So I work with 嘉會 [Jiāhuì] Hospitalat the moment with their sleep department.

OF (25:11):
Oh, I see.
So there are sleep departments in hospitals?

RM (25:15):
They are, which is wild, because most of us don't know that.

OF (25:19):
And are they doing the same thing you're doing?

RM (25:21):
No.

OF (25:22):
So there is a pathology, and there is a treatment, and that's it.

RM (25:24):
And that’s it.

OF (25:25):
OK, yeah.

RM (25:26):
And it's fantastic.
But what I have noticed, because of workingin hospitals most of my career, the doctor
can tell you “A, B, C, D, this is what youneed to go and do at home.”
If you don't know how to take those thingsthat the doctor has said and make it actually
apply to your lifestyle…

OF (25:42):
Yes.

RM (25:43):
… The chances of you actually doing this thing are going to be slim.

OF (25:45):
No it’s zero!

RM (25:46):
Right?

OF (25:47):
No it’s zero.
I mean, I've had advice just in general beengiven to me, “You have to do this, and eat
better, and sleep better.”
It's like “Where do I even start?”

RM (25:53):
Yes.

OF (25:54):
Yeah.

RM (25:55):
And that's what makes me very different.
I focus on how to get whatever they've said,and actually make it apply to your real everyday
life.
And not make you feel like you have to uprootyour whole system that you love.

OF (26:06):
Or if you do, at least you do it incrementally.

RM (26:08):
Exactly.

OF (26:09):
And you coach them through it.

RM (26:11):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

OF (26:12):
Yeah.

RM (26:13):
We use a term called ‘crowding out’.

OF (26:14):
‘Crowding out’.

RM (26:16):
Yeah.
So instead of just going cold turkey on something,we start flooding you with the good things
that you need to be doing.
So that you don't have enough time for thebad things that you were doing before.

OF (26:27):
Right.
If my tummy is full of cucumbers, I can'tput any more potato chips in there.

RM (26:31):
Exactly.

OF (26:32):
Yes.

RM (26:33):
Drink more water, less time to stress about stuff.

OF (26:35):
It's almost like distraction, isn't it?

RM (26:36):
It is.

OF (26:37):
Distract your brain, distract your gut.

RM (26:38):
It really is.

OF (26:39):
Yes, crowding out.

RM (26:40):
Because you have to do that.

OF (26:41):
Interesting.

RM (26:42):
You absolutely have to do that.

OF (26:43):
We were talking about cultures…

RM (26:44):
Yes.

OF (26:45):
… And specifically Chinese culture.
Was there anything we haven't touched upon?
You talked about mothers and high-performers.

RM (26:48):
Yeah.
And then you've got folks that have nothinggoing on.

OF (26:53):
Oh, this sounds familiar to me.

RM (26:55):
Where their schedules are very 随便 [suíbiàn].
They don't necessarily have to be waking upto do something specific, unless they make
the option…

OF (27:05):
Oh so you’re saying zero routine.

RM (27:06):
Yeah.

OF (27:07):
Which is the bane of sleep, right?

RM (27:10):
Yes.

OF (27:11):
So I'm guessing this is a certain social strata.

RM (27:14):
Yes.

OF (27:15):
It’s almost the opposite of stress.

RM (27:16):
Exactly.

OF (27:17):
Aha.

RM (27:18):
And you would think that people in that situation have it all together, and they are
stress-free, and they can just sleep, andall of that.

OF (27:26):
Yes, that’s the dream, right?

RM (27:27):
That's the dream.
And you know what's funny?
This is what society has kind of made us believewhat success is, right?
Like, when I finally make it, I don't haveto work a day in my life.
But actually, that is the worst thing youwant to do for yourself.

OF (27:41):
Yes, because that's the trope where somebody retires, and they die the next week, right?

RM (27:46):
Yeah, exactly.

OF (27:47):
Yes.

RM (27:48):
Exactly.
I've had clients, they've worked quite a bit,and then now they don't have to.
Because their net worth is pretty decent,they don't really have to work at all.
And all of a sudden, they can't sleep.
And they're like, they think they are resting,but really they’re just doing nothing at
all.
We look at their lifestyle and say “OK,so what can we do now?”
Actually building up routine.

(28:08):
“Oh well, you know, maybe I like painting.”
“Let's find you a painting class.”
And unfortunately, those are the most commonthings that I see in my practice.

OF (28:17):
Oh really, out of everything?

RM (28:19):
Yeah.

OF (28:20):
It’s those people?
Well I guess because, what you're offeringis a service which people would still see
as luxury right now.
Right, it’s not something which is on everystreet corner.

RM (28:29):
Yeah.

OF (28:30):
So the people who are coming to you, they have a certain disposable income.

RM (28:32):
Yeah.

OF (28:33):
And that's now self selecting the kind of people you see.

RM (28:35):
Exactly OF
Yeah.
It's the everyday person who's suffering quitea bit.

OF (28:39):
Much more.

RM (28:40):
Yeah.
And it's the everyday person who is reducingtheir life expectancy, because of sleep deprivation
and stress and all of these horrible things.

OF (28:49):
Rumbiey, all of us are.

RM (28:51):
Yeah.

OF (28:52):
I mean, I can't think of one person who doesn't have some kind of issue with one of
the things we've talked about.

RM (28:56):
Yeah, that's the thing.
And it's frightening.
We have gone so long doing these things - beingthese things - that they are almost a non-conversation
point.
You know, I always say “We are still children.”
So think of a toddler.
You know, if they don't get enough sleep,their world will come crashing down.

(29:17):
They will scream, yell, have a tantrum.

OF (29:19):
Yes RM
The only difference is, we're not going tothrow ourselves on the floor and roll around.
No.
But it could be a boss who's shouting, andthey’re screaming, and they're just vile.
These are toddlers who haven't had enough sleep.

RM (29:34):
Exactly.

OF (29:35):
Oh gosh.

RM (29:36):
For Christmas, give them a pillow.
You know?
Potentially this could be the real reason.
And we might not have those emotional outburstslike that.
But we'll have internal outbursts.

OF (29:48):
Oh, I see.

RM (29:49):
The way you think of yourself is diminished, simply because you’re under-slept.
There's such a thin line between being mentallyhealthy and unhealthy.
And that line is actually predominantly sleep.

OF (30:05):
It's so funny, doing this project, I like to have people sitting in that chair who come
from all kinds of backgrounds.
And what I tend to experience through them,is that somebody who is a historian will just
see everything in the context of history.
Someone who is in marketing, they'll see everythingis controlled by marketing.
And that's the lens through which they seetheir life.

(30:27):
Everything is to do with sleep right now.
I mean, you must have friends who are like“Rumbiey, shut the **** up.”

RM (30:33):
All the time.
All the time.

OF (30:36):
Because yeah, you will see people, and you're like “Oh, that guy's got a slouch:
sleep.”

RM (30:41):
Yeah.

OF (30:42):
Like “Oh, that guy's not in a good mood: sleep.”

“Oh that guy's blind (30:43):
he’s not getting enough sleep.”

RM (30:45):
Just yesterday, going for lunch with my friends is torturous to them.
I think.
I also have to genuinely turn it off.

OF (30:54):
What about for yourself, then?
Do you allow yourself to not follow everysingle rule?

RM (30:59):
Yeah, I do.
I do.

OF (31:01):
Right, so let’s just be honest then, which of the rules that we've talked about
- not ‘rules’, but you know what I mean,it's these things that affect sleep - which
of them do you allow yourself not to follow?

RM (31:09):
So it doesn't happen very often, but often enough.
And that is sleeping with my phone.

OF (31:15):
So you do it too.

RM (31:18):
I do.
And you know, it's such a thing.
But just recently, I started sleeping withmy phone in my kitchen now.

OF (31:24):
Yes.

RM (31:25):
Because it's far enough for me not to feel like I need to go there.

OF (31:28):
I don't know anyone who does not sleep with their phone charging next to their bed.

RM (31:32):
Yeah, you know…

OF (31:33):
In fact you put your alarm clock on your phone, right?

RM (31:35):
I don't wake up with an alarm any more.

OF (31:37):
Ah yeah, this is gonna be another thing, right?

RM (31:39):
Yeah.
Because I've listened to my body.
And now I know the best time for me to goto sleep naturally.
And the best time for me to wake up.
But you have to take time to actually understandyour body.
How are you feeling if you're waking up atsix o'clock?
How are you feeling if you're waking up atseven o'clock?

OF (31:55):
OK, but you're a consultant, and you can work with your own hours.

RM (31:59):
Yeah.

OF (32:00):
What if you have work and you have to get up at 5:30?

RM (32:03):
Well, then you need to shift something backwards.
So your sleep time has to then go a littlebit earlier.
Like that is the core of what I do.
Saying “Let's look at what your lifestylelooks like.
Let's make it work for you.
Your job needs you to wake up at 5:30?
Great, but we want you to wake up with energy.
And we don't want you to crash halfway throughthe day.

(32:24):
So what can we do?”

OF (32:26):
And is the idea that you'll listen to your body, and then you'll wake up naturally
at 5:30 at some point?

RM (32:32):
Yeah, eventually.
Eventually, because there's also a patternthat you've created.

OF (32:35):
I mean you've definitely given me, personally, a lot to think about.
I feel bad because we've talked about whatyou do, and we haven't talked about actually
who you are.
Of course, I've got to know you a lot.

RM (32:47):
Yeah.

OF (32:48):
But why don't we just finish off this first part of the conversation by asking you,
how did you get to become a sleep therapisthere in Shanghai?

RM (32:56):
That's a very long story, but I'll try to make it really short.
So I grew up with a family that was fairlyunhealthy.
And not necessarily that they were doing somethingspecifically wrong, there are a lot of genetic
issues.
So on my dad's side there’s cancer, bothmy parents have diabetes, my dad actually

(33:17):
passed away from diabetes and heart failure.
And these are very genetic things.
So when I was three years old, I had a heartattack, when I was at my oldest sister's funeral.

OF (33:27):
Oh gosh.

RM (33:28):
And she had just passed away from cancer.
So you can imagine the stress that my parentshad to deal with.
They haven't even buried their daughter, andthe youngest daughter's been whisked away
to an emergency room.

OF (33:41):
And that was with the emotion of the funeral.
But you were so young.

RM (33:45):
No.
I eventually found the documentation and thingslike that.
So apparently, two or three weeks before I'dhad strep throat.
This little bug migrated to my heart.

OF (33:55):
Wow.

RM (33:56):
And my heart rate was crazy crazy fast, even for an adult, that it eventually stopped.

OF (34:03):
On the day of your sister's funeral.

RM (34:05):
On the day of my sister's funeral.
Following that, I had to go to doctors everysingle Saturday, like it was the most normal
thing to do.

OF (34:14):
Oh I see.

RM (34:15):
So I grew up around a lot of medicine, obviously.
And so it went on through school as well.
And it just sort of solidified that I wantedto do something to help.
My sister was working for a hospital, andshe was like “Let me get you a part-time
job.”

OF (34:32):
Right.

RM (34:33):
It was at the hospital, and I was just a receptionist, just answering phone calls
and smiling.
That's all, but I loved it.

OF (34:39):
Right: RM
Because for the first time, I felt like Iwas genuinely helping with the little bit
that I knew.
Yeah.

RM (34:49):
Then it was time to go to university.
And then that's when the economy took a nosedive.
And all of my parents’ university savingsgot wiped out in one day.

OF (35:00):
Yeah.

RM (35:01):
And all of a sudden, I can't afford to go to school, and I had to figure out a new
plan.
And I was still stuck as a receptionist.
I was always found wandering the corridorsand talking to patients.

OF (35:13):
Ah this is starting to sound something like what you're doing now.

RM (35:17):
Yes.

OF (35:18):
I see.

RM (35:19):
That’s where the spark happened.
And the more I spoke to these patients…
Because I was very different.
I was not a doctor.

OF (35:26):
Yeah.

RM (35:27):
I was not a nurse.
So I wasn't a person with this immense authoritythat kind of scared them.
All of a sudden, they're telling me what theymiss, and their fears of going home after
they get discharged, or the things they'renot very happy about in the hospital.
And I would start telling my GM “Hey, soI just kind of talked to a few patients.

(35:48):
And they said, you know, maybe if we did thisinstead of what we're doing now, they will
be more comfortable.”
So I ended up having a whole department.

OF (35:57):
Oh what?

RM (35:58):
Yeah.
So with that, fast forward, I get an amazingopportunity through my uncle.
And he says “Well why don't you go to China?
Go and see what's there.”
And I'd never ever thought about China atall.

OF (36:12):
Amazing.

RM (36:13):
When I came to China, I found Chinese medicine, because I was not feeling well.
And I think it was just a complete cultureshock.

OF (36:21):
Yeah.

RM (36:22):
So my friend then says to me "Have you tried Chinese medicine?”
And I walk in and this doctor clearly seesI'm sick.
And I was so scared, because I'm all by myselfhere.

OF (36:32):
Yeah.

RM (36:33):
Luckily, the girl at the reception could translate.
She was like “He says your heart rate isso fast, you're going to have a heart attack.
He's gonna do acupuncture.”
I was like "What's that?”

OF (36:41):
Oh wow.

RM (36:42):
I didn't even know what that was.
So he does literally three needles.
And in ten minutes, my heart rate calms down,and I don't feel like I'm about to die.

OF (36:52):
Oh my gosh, yeah.

RM (36:54):
And then he says to me “I'll treat you for free."
So for a whole month, I was going to do acupuncture,and he was making me this horribly smelly
bitter medicine.
But it helped.
And I think again the stars aligned, becauseat some point during that whole experience
I was on LinkedIn.
And then I saw a job post pop up.

(37:15):
And they were looking for a marketing managerin a Chinese medicine clinic.
I was like “OK.”
And we worked pretty well together.
And that's when I was like ‘mind blown'by the concept of Chinese medicine.
The ‘holistic-ness’ is what really justhooked me because I was like “This is not
something that Western medicine ever teaches.”

(37:36):
They eventually gave me a work visa, and Ifelt home.
Then I got sick.
And eventually, it got so bad, I did go tothe doctor.
And they were like “Well, you have endometriosis.”

OF (37:48):
Endometriosis.

RM (37:49):
So that's like an inflammation of the endometrium, which is like a lining in your
uterus.

OF (37:56):
Yes.

RM (37:57):
And sometimes it can grow outside of your uterus.

OF (37:58):
Right.

RM (37:59):
And it is excruciating.

OF (38:00):
Wow.

RM (38:02):
So I was bedridden for almost six months.
The treatments that they were giving me, theyweren't necessarily working for me.
And I was getting very frustrated, becauseyou're waking up with this pain, you're going
back to bed with this pain.
And you aren't functioning because of thispain, and all they're doing is almost like
testing which one sticks.

OF (38:23):
Yeah.

RM (38:24):
And that wasn't working for me.
So a friend of mine, she's a health coach.
And I went to her and I was like “I needyour help.
I feel like this is the end of me, help.”
And she was like “You know, maybe Rumbieyyou should study health coaching.
And do it for you, to learn your body.”
And I swear to you, in three months I hadgone from 100% pain to like 30% pain.

(38:51):
Just by changing my nutrition, the exercise,as well as my sleep, which I later discovered
could be a thing.
So I took extra studies for the sleep.

OF (39:01):
That's a course what you did online?

RM (39:03):
Right.

OF (39:04):
Ah.

RM (39:05):
Yeah.
I knew also that I didn't want to necessarilybe a doctor of sleep.
I wanted to specifically focus on the lifestyle,because I was like “There are doctors who
do this already.”

OF (39:16):
Yeah.

RM (39:17):
I don't want to necessarily be a part of that.

OF (39:18):
And actually, it's not your skillset really.

RM (39:20):
Yeah.

OF (39:21):
Your skillset was going between the lines that the doctors and nurses couldn’t do.

RM (39:25):
Exactly, exactly.
Be comfortable enough to weave into the everydaylife of this person.

OF (39:30):
Yeah.

RM (39:31):
And be able to genuinely change some things other than the medical aspect of it.

OF (39:36):
I'm very glad that we covered your story.
There's a lot.
And I'm looking at the objects that you brought.
And the shortcut part of me says “Right,I'm going to use these and fix my sleep.”

RM (39:47):
Yeah.

OF (39:48):
I have to remember that these are just what you said at the beginning.
These are physical manifestations of the muchlarger story that you've been able to share.

RM (39:55):
Right.
Exactly.

OF (39:57):
And I hope that people listening would take away at least a few things.
And if they need more, then they certainlyknow who to call.

RM (40:02):
Absolutely.
I just want to say thank you so much for invitingme to your bedroom.

OF (40:08):
We're not finished, we have to do Part 2.

RM (40:11):
Yes!

OF (40:13):
Agh.
[Part 2]OF: We have more to go.

RM (40:17):
Yes.

OF (40:18):
And I already know that we've gone so long in the first half.
So we are going to whiz through the secondhalf.

RM (40:23):
OK, cool.

OF (40:24):
So let us start.

RM (40:25):
Begin.

OF (40:26):
Question 1, which comes from Shanghai Daily
fact?

RM (40:32):
As a foreigner, when I first came to China I initially just lumped everybody into one
big giant demographic, I guess.
But actually getting here and realising thereare so many minorities…

OF (40:47):
Right.

RM (40:48):
… Has been such a breath of fresh air.
Because it has allowed me to look at the Chinesepeople and say “You're all just like everybody
else.”

OF (40:58):
Right.

RM (40:59):
And it's nice.
It's comforting.

OF (41:01):
Yes, in terms of you can't generalise about Zimbabweans…

RM (41:02):
Yeah.

OF (41:03):
… So why would you generalise about Chinese?

RM (41:04):
Exactly.

OF (41:05):
Yeah.

RM (41:06):
Yeah.

OF (41:07):
What is the equivalent in Zimbabwe?
What is the majority tribe or culture or language?

RM (41:10):
So the majority tribe are the Shona?

OF (41:12):
Aha.
Are there any similarities between Shona cultureand Chinese culture that you’ve seen?

RM (41:17):
More than you would believe.

OF (41:19):
Really?

RM (41:20):
I was shocked.

OF (41:21):
Ha!

RM (41:22):
So like the marriage culture is very similar here.
Also, the education.
Just China is way more intense.
My dad actually wanted me to be an economistbecause he was an economist.
And he just thought “That would be the thingfor her.”
No.

OF (41:39):
Interesting.

RM (41:40):
He was very encouraging of my job at the hospital.
And he would come - so my dad was weird - hewould come, and he would sit just in front
of me and he would sleep.

OF (41:51):
Ah.

RM (41:52):
Just to be there.

OF (41:53):
How funny.
Another sleep connection as well.

RM (41:56):
Yeah.

OF (41:58):
Ha.

Question 2, which comes from Rosetta Stone: Do you have a favourite word or phrase in (41:59):
undefined
Chinese?

RM (42:05):
马马虎虎 [Mǎmǎhǔhǔ].

OF (42:06):
马马虎虎 [Mǎmǎhǔhǔ].

RM (42:07):
And the reason why I love it is because it was one of my very first words that I learned.

OF (42:11):
It's often the first word that a foreigner will learn.

RM (42:14):
Yeah.
And I remember our Chinese teacher…
Because I did a full university educationwith Chinese for a full year.

OF (42:21):
Wow.

RM (42:22):
So it was very structured.
And I remember my teacher, she would alwayssay “Chinese people will immediately think
you speak good Chinese.”

OF (42:31):
Really?

RM (42:32):
But now, I don't even use it any more.

OF (42:34):
Never.

RM (42:35):
Because if you use it, people are just like “Your Chinese is very low.”

OF (42:38):
Yes.
It’s one of those things that actually onlythe foreigners seem to say.

RM (42:42):
Exactly.

OF (42:43):
Which is interesting, because in this podcast I assumed that it would come up more.
It hasn't.
There's only one other person who said it,and he was Chinese.

RM (42:51):
Really?

OF (42:52):
And when it came out of his face…

RM (42:53):
You were just like…?

OF (42:54):
“Why are you saying that?”

RM (42:55):
Right.

OF (42:56):
Because I'd literally never heard a Chinese person say it.

RM (42:58):
Yeah, I think it's something that they push more foreigners to say because it's fun,
it’s easy.

OF (43:04):
It's cute.

RM (43:05):
Exactly, it’s cute.

OF (43:06):
And can you explain what it means.

RM (43:07):
So it just means ‘So-so’.

OF (43:08):
Very nice.

Next question, which comes from naked Retreats: What is your favourite destination within (43:10):
undefined
China?

RM (43:16):
I would say 南京 [Nánjīng].

OF (43:17):
Ah.

RM (43:18):
南京 [Nánjīng] for me feels a lot like a town back home.
So it's got the mountains, it’s got thecity, and it feels like the city is a little
sunk in.
Sort of like in a valley, sort of.
So the first time I went to 南京 [Nánjīng],I was like “I love this place.”
So for about a few years, I would make sureto look at the forecast to see if it was snowing

(43:38):
in 南京 [Nánjīng], and I would go everywinter.

OF (43:40):
Nice.

RM (43:41):
Just to go and see the snow.
But specifically in 南京 [Nánjīng], becauseit had that homey feel.

OF (43:46):
It's a chill city.
Very cool.
If you left China, what would you miss themost, and what would you miss the least?

RM (43:52):
Oh lord.
I would miss the subway.
No matter where you are, you have at leasttwo lines…

OF (43:58):
Intersecting.
RM … That you can choose from, you know.
And it's also something I will not miss, atthe same time.
Because of the crowds.
I won't miss the crowds that are disengaged.
I know exactly what you mean.
And these are the people who act like crowds,and not individuals.

RM (44:18):
Yeah.
And it's really sad.

OF (44:20):
Yes.
The flip side of the convenience, right?

Next question, which comes from SmartShanghai: Where is your favourite place to go out, to (44:25):
undefined
eat, or drink, or hang out?

RM (44:31):
Well unfortunately, a lot of my favourite places have been closed.

OF (44:34):
Yes.

RM (44:35):
But my favourite place right now is Barbarian on 武夷 [Wǔyí] Road.
Because it's new.

OF (44:41):
I don’t know that one.

RM (44:42):
Near 中山 [Zhōngshān] Park, actually.

OF (44:44):
Ah.

RM (44:45):
Yeah.

OF (44:46):
I know which complex you mean, I just had lunch in one of those places the other
day.

RM (44:50):
Yeah, it's pretty.

OF (44:51):
It’s quiet, people don't really know about it yet.

RM (44:52):
Yeah.
So I love that place.

OF (44:54):
By the time this episode comes out, it's probably old news already.
But as we're speaking…

RM (44:57):
It’s new.

OF (44:58):
It’s still pretty cool.
Next question, what is the best or worst purchaseyou've made in China?

RM (45:04):
I think the best purchase was these mouth tapes.

OF (45:09):
Mouth tapes?

RM (45:10):
Yes.

OF (45:11):
That’s for if you're snoring, it shuts you up?

RM (45:13):
Not just snoring, but it improves your breathing.

OF (45:16):
Because you have to breathe through your nose?

RM (45:17):
Yes.
Because we're always breathing through ourmouth.

OF (45:20):
Yes.

RM (45:21):
So I actually initially bought them to try them out, so I could give them to a client
who has specifically this problem.
So I tested them out, and I was like "Oh mygosh, they're amazing.”
So now we have them.

OF (45:33):
Wow.
I'm picturing it.

RM (45:35):
Yeah OF
No.

OF (45:38):
And you wear them daily?

RM (45:39):
I try.
Whenever I remember to.

OF (45:42):
Well, well.

RM (45:43):
Weird, right?

OF (45:45):
I mean, this is why I have this question.
That I can get weird answers like that.
Next question, what is your favourite WeChatsticker?

RM (45:53):
OK, let me actually send it to you.

OF (45:56):
Oh I see.
Tell me what's going on here.

RM (45:58):
So it’s Beyoncé.

OF (45:59):
Yeah.

RM (46:00):
And she's busy flicking her hair.

OF (46:02):
Yeah.

RM (46:03):
And what I love about that, is because every time I send it, it’s because somebody
has done something really cool.
I think all my clients have received this,I’m pretty sure.
When they have done something really amazing- like with their meal plans or something
- and I'm like “You got it.”

OF (46:17):
Oh, I see.
So actually, it's out of generosity.

RM (46:20):
Yes.

OF (46:21):
It's not actually saying that you're the goddess.

RM (46:22):
Oh, no, no, no, no.
I always give it out to other people, like“Look what you've done, you’ve just done
this amazing thing.”

OF (46:26):
Excellent.

RM (46:27):
Yeah.

OF (46:28):
Next question.
What is your go-to song to sing at KTV?

RM (46:32):
Ah, that would be Alicia Keys.

OF (46:35):
Ah.

RM (46:37):
"No one, no one, no one.”
Yeah, it's an easier song to sing.

OF (46:44):
I see.
It’s to do with the easiness of singingit.

RM (46:47):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I don't want to strain myself at a KTV.

OF (46:50):
No.

RM (46:51):
Oh my gosh.

OF (46:52):
And finally, this comes from JustPod - which is the studio that normally I’d be using,
but today you're in my boudoir - what or whois your biggest source of inspiration in China?

RM (47:04):
Ah, you know, I get a lot of inspiration from people's stories.

OF (47:10):
You're going into very intimate details.

RM (47:13):
Yeah, yeah.
People help me be able to tell the story of‘Purposely Healthy’ in such a way that
it resonates.
That’s the name of my coaching brand.

OF (47:25):
That’s coaching.

RM (47:26):
Right.
And then the products, it's ‘The SlumberBox’.

OF (47:29):
Rumbiey, thank you again.

RM (47:31):
Thank you for having me.

OF (47:33):
Oh I love the sing-song.
And before I let you leave, out of everyoneyou know in China, who would you recommend
that I interview in the next season of Mosaicof China?

RM (47:43):
I would recommend Dr. Gina.

OF (47:46):
Gina.

RM (47:47):
From ASPINE.

OF (47:48):
Oh.

RM (47:49):
So she's a chiropractor, and she has transformed my back and my shoulder.
She invited me to her clinic, and she waslike “Hey, come in for a consultation.”
And I walked out of there - after just onesession - feeling like she had reversed so
much.

OF (48:08):
Wow.
It'll be good to meet with Dr. Gina.
Thank you so much.

RM (48:12):
Thank you.
[Outro]OF: First things first, I mentioned at the
top of the show that there’s an extra 30minutes of content in the PREMIUM version
of the show this week.
Here’s a whole bunch of clips from thatversion to show you what I mean:
[Clip 1]RM: Sleep spindles, and…

OF (48:28):
I've never heard of ‘sleep spindles’, what the hell are you talking about?
[Clip 2]OF: Do we know why our temperature drops?

RM (48:34):
It's like hibernation.
It's key in getting you to sleep.
[Clip 3]RM: Say “Sanibonani.”

And everybody, everybody (48:40):
“Sanibonani!”
Everybody was just saying “Hello!”

OF (48:42):
The whole bus.

RM (48:44):
The whole bus.
[Clip 4]RM: Usually people like that eventually can
start having headaches the minute they wakeup.
[Clip 5]RM: “That can't be Rumbiey.
She's not that fat.”
And I had swollen.

OF (48:56):
Oh gosh.

RM (48:57):
So that's when the real alarm bells went off.
[Clip 6]RM: There’s actually a very interesting

phenomenon that's been happening lately (49:02):
‘social jetlag’.

OF (49:05):
‘Social jetlag’?

RM (49:06):
Yeah.
[Clip 7]RM: Eventually your body starts to suppress
its own production.
Because our bodies naturally produce melatonin.

OF (49:14):
Oh I see.
[Clip 8]OF: You must lose some clients immediately
at that point.

RM (49:18):
Sometimes.

OF (49:19):
Right?

RM (49:20):
Sometimes.

OF (49:21):
Like “Don't talk about my life, just fix my sleep!”

RM (49:22):
Yeah.
Right.
[Clip 9]RM: So I get in, get him out, and start to
do CPR on him.
Unfortunately, he passed away.

OF (49:27):
Gosh.
[Clip 10]OF: OK, so no snoring during stage three.

RM (49:31):
That is an actual problem, it is not normal.
[Clip 11]RM: They're like “If I can't sleep, I'll
just wake up my wife.”
[Clip 12]RM: Deep clean your mattresses!

OF (49:40):
Aha.
[Clip 13]RM: I can totally have a great time.
And actually yes you will relax in that one week.

RM (49:45):
Yeah.
Then I come back, my life is still the same.

OF (49:47):
Yes.
[Clip 14]RM: It blocks fourth and fifth stages.
Oh so you never get the deeper sleep.

RM (49:53):
You don't even get it.
[Clip 15]OF: I wouldn't touch the kitchen surface over
there if I were you.
[Clip 16]RM: With that system, they were like “Do
you want to create a department?”
I was like “Let's do it.”
[Clip 17]OF: It’s like “Screw you, I’ve done
it ‘for the man’ the whole week.
Now I'm going to do what I want.”
In China that's an actual thing, ‘Sleep revenge’.

OF (50:10):
What?

RM (50:11):
‘Sleep revenge’.
[Clip 18]RM: Initially, I wanted to be a doctor.

OF (50:14):
Yeah, right.

RM (50:15):
And then I was like “No, I've seen too much of them.
No.”
[End of Audio Clips]

OF (50:20):
I have posted a bunch of images on social media alongside today’s show, including
details of how you can reach Rumbiey to get20% off a customised sleep coaching programme
(valid for the next three months), or 15%off Slumber Box products (valid until the
end of December 2022).
Just quote Mosaic of China, and the discountswill apply.

(50:43):
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artworkby Denny Newell.
Coming up right now is a catch-up chat withthe Armenian violinist Astrid Poghosyan from
Season 01 Episode 04.
And we’ll be back with another new episodenext week.
[Catch-Up Interview]OF: Astrid, hello!

AP (51:06):
Hello!

OF (51:09):
What a pleasure to see you.
I have run into you actually quite a lot sinceour first recording, and since our catch-up
recording.
In pandemic years, I've known you for a century.

AP (51:21):
Exactly.

OF (51:22):
Well, for anyone who doesn't know you, you were the first non-Chinese management
employee in the 150-year history of the ShanghaiSymphony Orchestra.
So I guess I should ask you, what's happeningat the orchestra?
What's going on?

AP (51:37):
Well, it's been a challenging time, I guess, for all the industries including ours.
But I mean, the entertainment industry, it'sprobably one of the most sacrificed industries
in these times.

OF (51:49):
Ah.

AP (51:50):
Especially for the times when you thought that you’ve already recovered - you’re
back to normal after 2020 - and it hits youagain.
You keep making plans, and changing them;keep making plans, and changing them.
But we are still going forward with live performances,this is the ‘freedom time’.

OF (52:06):
Well I remember the first lockdown, because that was during our first catch-up.
So you're from Season 01, and then when wehad our catch-up for Season 02 you were saying
how actually it was quite manageable.
Because during that time, you could stilldo some kind of small events and you could
broadcast them, right?
You had, like, little quartets, because peoplecould still get together, just there was no

(52:29):
audience.
I guess this time it was very different.

AP (52:32):
This time, we had learnt our lesson from 2020, so we kind of already knew what to do,
what not to do.
We had weekly concerts every Friday, streaming.

OF (52:41):
You did?

AP (52:42):
Yes.
Doing streamings of our previous highlightconcerts.

OF (52:44):
Oh, your previous concerts.

AP (52:46):
Including our world tours.
And it was part of a whole programme by theShanghai government as well.
Different cultural institutions from Shanghai,they would stream on different days: evening
concerts, ballet, dances, or anything culture-related.

OF (52:58):
Wow.

AP (52:59):
So they were streaming, and our day was Fridays.
That's why you have to actually be reallyactive before these ‘force majeure’ situations.
So once this thing happens, you have somekind of materials to use…

OF (53:08):
Right.

AP (53:09):
… Until you get back to normal again.

OF (53:10):
So you had a bunch of recordings just ready to go, right?

AP (53:12):
Exactly.
Yes, yes.
So we worked in that way.
And it was a good chance for us as well togive ourselves a recap of all those moments.
Because we forget a lot of good stuff we'vedone.

OF (53:19):
Yeah.

AP (53:20):
Because you keep moving forward.
And you know you have done it, but it's justpassing by.
Especially when you're stuck at home, thosethings feel even more precious.
So it was like a good reflection time as well,in a way.

OF (53:32):
Well, if anyone listening has not been to the Shanghai Symphony Orchestra, I do recommend
you go.
It's an amazing building.
You actually gave me a tour behind the scene,this is now three or four years ago.
If you are not into classical music, giveit a try, because you might find that you
are, right?

AP (53:49):
Exactly.

OF (53:50):
And personally, of course, you are a violinist.
That's how you came to this profession.
In lockdown, did you play for your neighbours?

AP (53:56):
Yes.
And then what I found is that maybe one thingyou should consider when you rent an apartment
somewhere, just try to check whether you haveany musician neighbours around.
You have some quite good entertainment.

OF (54:06):
Yeah.

AP (54:07):
You have live music happening.
Probably every time I would practice, my neighbourswould send a message in the WeChat group saying
“Oh, where's this coming from?
Can you play more?”
I'm like “OK, I already played an hour…”

OF (54:19):
Really?
So actually you became famous in your block.

AP (54:22):
I would just play, and people would listen.
And at some point it make me feel good aswell that I chose my profession.
In pandemic times, I can bring some unexpectedjoy to people.

OF (54:30):
Yes.

AP (54:31):
So that was fun.

OF (54:32):
That's very nice.
I have a piano which I bash on now again,but I do it very quietly.
My musicality is not as good as yours.
Well, what about the future then?
What's in the future for you right now?

AP (54:45):
The future is unknown.
That's the best answer for the past years,I guess.

OF (54:51):
You've been here since you were sixteen, right?

AP (54:53):
Yes.
And it's my 13th year.

OF (54:55):
Many people have said “Oh, I've lived in China for 13-14 years.”
But for you, it’s such a big percentageof your life.

AP (55:02):
Exactly.

OF (55:03):
So I'm very grateful for what you're doing at the symphony.
And I hope that I can also come to see oneof your concerts soon.

AP (55:09):
Thank you.

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