June 7, 2021 • 37 mins
The image of the foreigner teacher in China stands for two things. Firstly, it represents one of the most popular ways that someone seeking experience overseas can find their first footing, especially in a place like China. For some people it's a stepping stone into something else in that new country, and for others - like today's guest Seth Harvey - it becomes a gateway into a longer-term career in education. The second thing it represents is a position at the interface of a culture. Working with young adults offers teachers a window into the society in which they operate, and where that society might be heading in the future. This is true for teachers in every part of the world. But when your job entails working with Chinese students seeking admission into American universities, you are uniquely placed to observe the contrast between the attributes produced by one education system, and those valued by another. The episode also includes a catch-up interview with Lissanthea Taylor from Season 01 Episode 28. (https://mosaicofchina.com/season-01-episode-28-lissanthea-taylor). Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 01:23 - Part 1 21:25 - Part 2 28:08 - Outro 31:11 - Catch-Up Interview Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at https://mosaicofchina.com/season-02-episode-19-seth-harvey.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
[Trailer]SH: You get experience right after you most
need it.OF: Right.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
Today we are putting a spotlight on the foreignerteacher. And there's something very special
about this subject, because it's one of themost common ways for foreigners to find their
(00:26):
first job, their first identity, and theirfirst footing into a new country like China.
It's how I first came to Asia twenty yearsago, and I'm sure if you weren't one too,
you certainly know someone who was. For somepeople it's a stepping stone into something
else in that new country, and for others - liketoday's guest Seth Harvey - it becomes a gateway
(00:49):
into a longer-term career and passion in education.
Our conversation gets into its flow when wediscuss how Seth interfaces with the education
system and the family unit in China. And it'sa story that reminds us how working with young
adults offers teachers a unique window intothe society in which they operate, and indeed
where that society might be heading in thefuture. Seth is a mellow talker, so today's
(01:15):
episode has the feel of an avuncular firesidechat. So let's slow it down, relax, and take
a listen.
[Part 1]OF: I'm here with Seth Harvey. And Seth, you
do a lot of things, but I guess the principalthing that you do is you're an admissions
advisor, right?SH: Correct, yes. I work for a company that
(01:37):
helps students plan, prepare and apply toschool overseas.
OF (01:42):
Very cool. I know you're involved in education, because of course, you were referred by Lissanthea
last season. So let's hear what Lissantheahad to say.
[Start of Audio Clip]Lissanthea TAYLOR: I'm going to send my friend
Seth Harvey, your way. Seth is the much malignedEnglish teacher.
Nice. LT
universities.OF: Right.
LT (02:02):
So I think you'll have some good questions to ask him about what Chinese kids experience
in education[End of Audio Clip]
OF (02:09):
Lissanthea
SH (02:12):
Lissanthea is amazing. She is engaged to my best friend. If you want to hop into
the object that I brought today, it's actuallykind of related to all of that. So it's a
nice transition.OF: Great, show me.
Alright, let me pull it out here. I just put on the table a weather cock. So it is
(02:32):
a small rooster figurine. And the reason Ipicked this item is, it represents a lot of
things about my lifestyle in China. So first,it was a gift that was brought back by my
best friend - and Lissanthea - from Portugal.My best friend's Portuguese. This little thing
changes colours by the weather.OF: Wow. I can't believe that something so
(02:53):
analogue can actually be so high-tech at thesame time.
Right, that’s a pretty good analogy for China.
OF (02:58):
Right. SH
And a lot of things are still reliant on oldtraditional ways. It does a great job of mixing
new and old together.OF: Your experience in China has been all
in Shanghai, right?SH: Yes, I've never lived anywhere else. I
have no interest in living in any other cities.For me 我是上海人 [Wǒ shì Shànghǎirén].
So that's the local dialect for 'I'm Shanghainese’.I'm a huge fan boy of Shanghai. In my mind,
(03:24):
Shanghai is the best city in the world. AndI'm here definitely by choice.
And how long have you been here now altogether? SH
from my university, just a summer vacationfor three weeks, we did Shanghai and 广州
[Guǎngzhōu]. And I remember having thisfeeling of ‘Man, it's all happening here’.
I was in business school at the time. AndI came home, and I think I was really impacted
(03:46):
by this three-week trip. About every othersentence, I started with “In China…”,
“In China…”, “In China…” I? annoyedeverybody, all my friends and family. So I
said “I'm going to come back”. And in2011, on three weeks notice, I decided I was
going to move here for a year. I had friendsthat taught English, I said “I can do something”.
So I got on a plane with no job; no placeto live; I didn't really know anyone in Shanghai;
(04:07):
I didn't speak any Chinese. It was prettyscary, a big risk. And I came here, and I
made it work, for a little over a year, 2011to 2012. And I returned back to school, finished
school, worked a little bit in the US, andI moved back here in 2015, and I've been here
since.OF: Yeah, that speaks to a certain tenacity
about you, right? You didn't have any plans,but you had the bravery just to come here,
(04:29):
on a whim almost.SH: ‘Tenacity’ is a nice word; ‘stupidity’
would be another way to say it.OF: Let's jump into that then. So tell us
about what your job within the field of educationactually is.
SH (04:41):
Right, so I've had a number of different roles with different companies over the last
five years. I was working for 新东方 [Xīndōngfāng],China New Oriental China. They're the largest
education company in China. They cover everysingle service you could think about, from
English training, to sending kids overseas,to giving prep lessons for test prep, for
(05:03):
everything, of all ages. In January I transitionedto a smaller boutique firm, and we're doing
the same kind of service, and we're focusedon sending Chinese students abroad. For years
now there’s been a trend to send studentsabroad, at various stages of their education.
So some kids go for middle school, boardingschools; some kids go for high school; and
a growing number are going abroad for universities,probably even more popular. My role comes
(05:28):
in at the very end of the process, where weadvise them on preparing themselves in this
last year to do everything they can to shineon a college application. So that's everything
from recommending and advising extracurricularactivities; to planning out their standardised
test dates; and kind of keeping track of theirprocess, and making sure that they're on track,
(05:48):
or that we're starting to address correctionsthat need to be made.
OF (05:51):
And you're not involved in teaching them, but you see the product that the education
system makes of them. They come almost fullyformed, but then you have to mould them for
the next stage. Is that a good enough description?SH: I wouldn't say that’s super accurate.
What we're trying to teach them, and the ideaswe're trying to get them to understand, are
(06:12):
quite different than in an academic setting.We're more focused on developing them personally,
to help them start to form an idea of whothey are, and what they would like to do.
I don't actually feel like there's a lot ofoverlap between school learning and the kind
of realisations and learning that I'm tryingto help them achieve.
Does that say something about the education system?
SH (06:35):
Well, I think there's a lot of things to say about the education system. And no
one has it perfect, I don't think that it'spossible to have some kind of system that’s
that large, that is going to work for everyone.There's a long-standing stereotype that the
education system produces a certain kind ofresult, which is robotic, not being creative,
(06:59):
or “They're very hard working, but it'sa bit formulaic. You can give them an input,
and they produce an output, but there's nota lot of variance in there”. It's been likened
to a factory, where you’re mass-producingpeople. And if you look at it from a more
zoomed-out perspective, by the government,it's kind of smart. I don't think that the
(07:20):
correct approach is to try to produce, youknow, a million Elon Musks a year. That’s
not really sustainable, and it doesn't kindof work on a societal level. One thing about
Chinese people is, I feel like they're especiallygood at long-term planning. They're very patient,
and they kind of look farther ahead. So yousee this in how they approach education; you
(07:41):
see this in how they approach their careers;you see it in how they approach politics in
this country, if you're tuned into those kindsof things. But I work with maybe a certain
section of students that are looking to breakout of that. The Chinese system to go to university
relies on a test called the 高考 [Gāokǎo].A famed test. And this is like the most important
(08:03):
test of any Chinese student’s life. It isincredibly rigorous and competitive, and it
is incredibly determinative of your future.So a lot of parents start their children on
a path, which allows them to sidestep the高考 [Gāokǎo] by looking to go abroad.
It takes a lot of the pressure off, and opensup different opportunities.
OF (08:21):
Which makes them what? That makes them privileged? That makes them slightly counter-cultural?
Like, what kind of parents put their childreninto that situation?
SH (08:31):
Well, I wouldn't say that it's so radical. I think that it's parents that have a different
approach. So I think that you have this youngergeneration of parents in their 40s, to 50.
And they grew up in a certain way. And theyremember how it was, and they're trying to
help their kids have a better approach toit. They say, you know ‘You want to give
(08:53):
your children things you've never had’.And another quote is ‘To teach your children
things you were never taught’. They're veryfamily focused, and they're very focused on
trying to elevate the opportunities in lifeof that next generation. That's the responsibility
that they take on, when they have children.I think the planning process starts, you know…
it probably starts the first time they getthe pregnancy test back. So it's not one of
(09:17):
the things that's done when the child's 15or 16. It's done when they’re, like, 2 or
3. And this process all starts from… they’regetting enrolled in pre-schools and daycares,
where they're being exposed to English, andthey're trying to promote, you know, more
cognitive development. It's a modern day competition.It's like, you know, how do I get the smartest
kid, and the best results? And a child isa parent's greatest investment here. All for
(09:39):
the dream of going to a Harvard or a Cambridgeor brand name school.
OF (09:44):
There'll be people listening to this in different countries thinking “Oh yeah, well
that's the same as my country. We are givingour kids too many standardised tests, and
pushing them too hard in that approach”.Do you think that actually they are similar,
or do you think China has a specific typeof examination system?
SH (10:02):
The average Chinese student goes to school for about 10 hours a day, or more. And on
top of that the student’s gonna do about4 hours of homework, or extra classes, or
prep. So you're looking at a 14 hour day.Now most of us who work a full time job, we
work 8 hours a day, you know, we have a lunchbreak and things like that. Imagine being
shuffled from class to class; and being tested,examined; you need to listen, to be engaged
(10:26):
and focused for 14 hours a day. It's mentallyexhausting. You're basically a mental triathlete.
And you're talking about middle schoolers.So just the sheer rigour of the day-to-day
- to keep up with the amount of homework thatthey're given, and not get left behind - is
incredible. So on one hand, I think that thesestudents are missing out on certain opportunities
(10:49):
to develop their interests, to maintain ahappier childhood that we kind of want. But
on the other hand, I actually think it's anecessary evil. I think kids in this system
are learning important personal characteristicsthat benefit them later in life. So the struggle
that they're experiencing now, where they'rein middle school or high school, I think it
(11:10):
helps them become diligent; it helps themmanage their time; it helps them stay focused,
and push through. And once they learn to dothat, it gives them a little bit of a competitive
advantage over their foreign peers or counterparts.Where I think in the West, we're a little
bit more entitled and individualistic, andthings are a little bit softer. And the reality
(11:32):
of the world is, you know, life's tough. Whenyou get out into the real world, and you have
to work, you know, not all jobs are superfun where you're gonna do your passion. But
at least Chinese students, they have learnedto kind of put their head down, to grin and
bear it, and to work through it. There areupsides to this approach.
OF (11:47):
So when you first encounter these children, at what stage do you usually start working
with them?SH: I would like to start working with them
as early as possible. So the reason that myindustry exists, is because Western and Eastern
education, we value different things. So wehad talked about how test-based the Chinese
education system is, basically everythingis done on a test score. So if you're on a
(12:10):
test, and it's out of 1,000 points, well ifyou got 995, and someone else got 994, well,
then you get the spot, and they don't. Butin the West, we use something called a holistic
approach. Where yes, test scores, academicsare important; but we try to look at kind
of every angle. So it doesn't necessarilymean that you scored high enough, there's
no magic number on a test that will get youadmitted. That's kind of just a precursor,
(12:34):
a prerequisite, to meet a minimum threshold,to show competency. And then we start to look
at other factors, which would be like readingyour essays; trying to get to know your interests;
maybe there's an interview; and to get toknow you on a personal level, to decide if
you're going to be a good successful candidate,who comes and contributes to our academic
institution, our community. Those kind ofthings, more than just “Can you take a test?”
(12:57):
So a battle that I have to fight is to tryto allocate more time, more effort, more resources,
to developing that personal story, and awayfrom preparing for tests. So we could say
I work in education, but I kind of feel thatI work in Marketing. What my job basically
is, is I'm trying to create a brand or a profilefor these students. It's a sales pitch. Every
(13:21):
kid that applies to Harvard has a great SATScore, they have done some community service,
they have an English competency. These kindof things have become homogenised. And for
a Chinese applicant, they kind of just fitinto the same pattern. So my job is to try
to help them break this pattern, to try togive them some kind of hook. Something that
(13:42):
makes them different. We talked about theday of a student, a 14-hour day. Well, there's
not a lot of time or energy left over forthinking about things. So I try to help coach
students to understand some really importantattributes. I try to help them understand
what schools are looking for. And that's partof branding, right? Step one: know your audience
- know your customer, understand the need,understand the want - before you can create
(14:05):
a sales pitch. Chinese are very collective.And the problem that creates is that Chinese
people, they go with the flow. They're alwayslooking at their neighbours, their family
friends, their classmates, their peers, they'retrying to ‘keep up with the Joneses’,
right? In the West, we kind of value rebels,and rule-breakers, and iconoclasts. And that's
(14:26):
something that's not very typical of the averageChinese student.
Is it not just a case of, the ability to stand out, more fundamentally?
SH (14:35):
Yeah, I think so. But how do you do that, Oscar? You know, how do you stand out? Maybe
now you know, because you have life experience,you've tried different things, you've had
careers, you've met a lot of different people.But if you look at the background of the students,
the hard part is, they don't know who theyare. And no-one’s ever asked them that.
Most of the time, they're picking a majoror what they want to study, they're picking
(14:57):
it for one of two reasons. The first reasonwould be that they've done well in school,
and they've gotten kind of positive feedbackfrom teachers, or grades, and someone says
“Hey, you're good at this”. Everybodylikes things that they're good at, right?
So they think “I’ll go and pursue that”.Or the second reason is, it's what their parents
have done. “My dad is an engineer”, or“My dad is in business, and that's what
(15:19):
I want to do”. Parents tend to be, I think,even a stronger role model here. And I don't
really want to get into the psychology ofparent/child relationships in China, and how
they're different than than in the West. ButI think that those kind of factors play a
role as well.OF: In both those examples, it's either they’ve
been told they're good at something; or they’refollowing their parents. But there isn't this
(15:40):
third option where “It's what I want todo”.
Well, China, things develop very quickly here. And I feel there's a tide changing,
where we're seeing more relaxed parents, andwe're seeing children who are becoming more
vocal in the things that they want, and they'restarting to be able to - or feel confident
enough to - kind of push back against maybeoutside guidance, and to follow what they
(16:02):
like. And it's quite amazing, you know, you'reseeing a big trend for students who are very
interested - and then get active - in a numberof issues. That wasn't common just five years
ago. The environment, and making things cleaner,safer, better. Social issues is becoming big,
so the idea of justice and the role of government.Students are starting to think about these
(16:24):
things, trying to do projects about thesethings, they're getting involved. So these
types of students - that have access to moreof an international path - they’re starting
to take part in different competitions, differentorganised events. So a very popular one is
called ‘China Thinks Big’. And China ThinksBig is a research-based competition, where
they're trying to solve some kind of problem.They can pick anything that they're interested
(16:46):
in, and they do this in a group-based project.Or YOC, which is the Youth Observer competition,
where they need to write a six to eight pagearticle, with graphics and research. So these
types of competitions, they start to challengestudents, and to make them think and engage
with the outside world, and be curious.OF: We're talking quite generally until now.
(17:09):
Sure. OF
another one - where you have taken them throughthis story, and seen them on their way to
an American University?SH: I've got one student right now, and he's
really interested in architecture. And theproblem is that this student is kind of struggling
right now to maintain a high enough GPA. Andhe's struggling with his test prep and meeting
(17:31):
SAT and TOEFL requirements. So this summer,he's going to use the summer vacation to focus
on on test prep, and try to get those numbersup. And of course, his dad's an architect.
And the other hobby he has is cycling. Soinstead of spending all of his time doing
test prep this summer, I would like him todo something interesting. I would like to
(17:52):
push him. So for example, I said “Hey, Ilooked up, and I found that you can cycle
from 成都 [Chéngdū] to Lhasa, Tibet. Andthere's a plotted out itinerary, and it takes
27 days. It has it plotted out step by step,day by day, what you're going to do. And yes,
it's going to be tough, but you're takinga journey; I think you personally develop
from this kind of thing. So then when it comesdown to application time, right, you've got
two paths, which are (18:15):
either take a risk and challenge yourself to do this cycling trip,
or study and improve your standardised testscores. Right, so you've got A Path, B Path.
If you take Path A, you have something interestingto write about, and I think this experience
kind of matures you, and gives you substance,right? And on the Path B, if you study, and
(18:35):
you apply to universities, you say “Lookat my test scores,” and they say “OK great,
that meets our minimum requirement. So whatkind of student are you? What are you interested
in?” And there's nothing behind that door.So that's a real challenge, a struggle of
my job, is trying to help them see the value.So you say “I want you to go cycling.”
And they say “But that doesn't improve mygrades. I'm not learning. That's not education”.
(18:56):
And I'm trying to tell them “Yes, it is”.There's a personal education. So you spent
the last, you know, 13 years doing academicstudying. It's time to afford a little bit
of time to develop yourself, and get yourselfprepared.
OF (19:09):
So what happened? Could you persuade him? SH
Right. And I'm guessing that means with the parents, right?
SH (19:15):
Right. Parents are typically open-minded… But part of our service is opening up opportunities,
this is something that they would have neverconsidered or thought of, without maybe an
outside presence. And you know, students whoare like “I've never done anything like
this before.” Like, here's your roadmap,here's your objective. Go. Do. Try. If they
fail, they fail. They come back. But they'restill learning right there. There's learning
(19:38):
in failure.OF: What is it about you, then, that makes
you so well fit for this job?SH: I like that I'm still involved with students,
and something about working with younger people,like teenagers, kind of breathes in some life
into your job. You know, they're still veryoptimistic, and ambitious, and they have kind
(19:58):
of big ideas, and they're maybe naïve, butin a nice way. And I think also, it's kind
of fulfilling a part in myself, where I thinkthat I've made a lot of mistakes. And I think
the fact that I have screwed up and have donethings in a non-traditional or the wrong way
- or that I failed at things - I think that'ssomething that makes me good at my job. I
find myself repeating a lot of idioms frommy dad, but he said “You get experience
(20:22):
right after you most need it”.OF: Right.
It gives me a chance to take that wisdom, and that knowledge that I've accumulated,
and at least pass it along. Someone can beolder, but if they have never tried, if they
have never taken risks, if they've never failed,then I'm not sure how much wisdom they have
to offer.OF: Would you like to talk about one of your
failures? Or would you rather not?SH: If you want to get into a divorce, or
(20:47):
startup companies, or..?OF: I don’t. It’s totally up to you.
I think all of those things. But ultimately, when you look back later in life, I think
those kind of things give you character, giveyou grit, make you interesting, and they make
you more successful in other parts of yourlife.
OF (21:06):
Well, you just used the word ‘grit’. And I think when there’s so much change
going on, you have to be resilient. So I totallythink that your experience is a good life
lesson for the kids that you're mentoring.SH: Yeah. It's not really something that you
can fake.OF: Amen. On that note, let's move on to Part
2.SH: All right.
[Part 2]OF: The 10 questions. Question 1. What is
(21:31):
your favourite China-related fact?SH: The sport of football - soccer - was actually
invented in China. England takes credit forit, but it actually predates England, and
football is a Chinese sport.OF: That's a good one. I think the English,
we are the ones who invented the rules. Sowe like to invent rules, and plant flags,
and stuff like that. Yeah. Number 2, do youhave a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?
SH (21:58):
In Chinese, there's a word in Mandarin, it would be like 没事 [méishì]. And that
means, like ’It's nothing, don't worry aboutit’. And in the Shanghainese dialect, it
would be like ‘méisì’, like they don'treally do the ‘SH’, it’s just like ’S’.
if you throw a little Shanghainese dialectin there, man, it just really opens people
up.OF: What is your favourite destination within
(22:19):
China?SH: I like Hong Kong, because they have a
horse track there. I love to go to Happy Valleyand gamble on horse races.
OF (22:26):
If you left China, what would you miss the most, and what would you miss the least?
SH (22:29):
What would I miss? Man, have you ever tried to take a taxi in New York City?
OF (22:33):
Ah. SH
handle. This is such a well planned out city.It seems so big, but I find that getting around
it from one side to the other is is amazing.Like I said, you can take the bus, you can
take the metro, and you can call a cab forlike two bucks to go anywhere. The thing I
will miss the least would be, ah man, likethe construction. That hammer drill. TA-TA-TA-TA-TA-TA-TA-TA-TA-TA!
(22:59):
Like, everyone knows that, and I think everyone'shad an apartment where somebody's been renovating
next door. So that's a trade-off for the amountof change and development that we enjoy, and
we love. Sometimes that that comes back, andit’s a huge negative.
Is there anything that still surprises you about life in China?
SH (23:17):
I was walking out of my office the other day, and there was a guy, and he had a turtle
on a stick. Like, I think some of us maybeknow what I'm talking about. But I think it's
his pet turtle. So he's got a string wrappedaround its shell, and on a stick. And he just
like carries it around with him and hangsout. You just never know what you're gonna
see. Every day, something new surprises meand like, I feel like that's a huge value.
(23:38):
It's one of the things that I really lovethe most here, is that it's a very unpredictable
place.OF: Nice. Where is your favourite place to
go, to eat or drink or just hang out?SH: I play on a billiards team once a week,
at a bar called Park 91 on 大沽路 [DàgūLù], near People's Square. It's a pretty
cool chill place, the kind of place I canwalk behind the counter and pour my own beer,
(24:01):
and feel very at home there. Shanghai canhave a bit of a materialistic vibe to it,
in a bit of a status-seeking, show-off, luxuryprone kind of way. And I'm just a simple guy
from the Midwest, I have no interest in thingsthat are pretentious.
OF (24:18):
What is the best or worst purchase you made in China?
SH (24:22):
Maybe a gym membership is a great one. I got a four year gym membership. And exercise
is something that I started doing regularlythat kind of grounds my life, it works as
a balancing factor.OF: Worth it. What is your favourite WeChat
sticker?SH: There are two types of WeChat stickers,
right? There's ones that are pulled from likefamous pop culture shows or cartoons and things,
(24:43):
but you can actually make your own stickers.So my girlfriend sends me ones of her that
she's made of herself. So then I find it reallyuseful to send herself back to her. Like a
little bit sarcastically. OK the second one.You know, stickers are a great way to end
a conversation. You know, sometimes peoplesay something outlandish or, you know, communication
is tough, and I like this one of this… whoeverthis actor is, you know, just aghast for words.
(25:08):
And there's like “I don't know what to sayback to that”. You know, sometimes you just
get flustered, and just “Let's end it there”.OF: I use this one a lot.
Yeah. OF
sing at KTV?SH: Oh sorry, I'm such a big hater of KTV.
OF (25:21):
Oooh. SH
it memorised down, but there's a Chinese songcalled 为什么你背着我爱别人 [Wèishéme
Nǐ Bèizhe Wǒ Ài Biérén]. And that translatesto “Why did you betray me? Why did you love
someone else?” But for me, that's that songthat represents my first year in China. And
it was always on the radio, and it has thisvery, super nice melody, da-da da-da-da da-da.
(25:46):
And whenever you try to sing this in KTV,it depresses all the Chinese people.
Oh! SH
And it's like, you know “Why did you betrayme? Why did you cheat on me? You stabbed me
in the back! You went off with someone else!”But, man, the melody is so nice. So I guess
that's my KTV revenge, it’s like “I toldyou I didn't want to go, and now I'm going
to depress all of you with this beautifulsad song”.
(26:08):
The perfect weapon. Very good. And finally, what other China-related sources of information
do you use?SH: I, of course, use SmartShanghai. Like,
that's my number one go-to thing, I read everything.I read every article, like what events are
going on. Like, I even have a pastime, a hobby,where I love going through all the apartment
(26:29):
listings. I'm basically an uncertified apartmentagent, I can tell you what the market value
of things are, and how the market’s doing.I even love going through the classifieds.
And secondly, I use WeChat quite a lot. Iam the biggest lurker of group chats.
Oh. SH
this information, insight. People are like“How do you know that?” “Group chat.”
(26:53):
Yeah. SH
groups, to exercise, cooking, social events.I'm even in a dad's group. So there's a group
for expat fathers, a big one. And they talkabout all kinds of stuff. And I have no kids.
And I don't really remember how… someoneput me into this group… but I never left,
(27:14):
and I just lurk, and I get so much great informationfrom that.
Well, thank you. And before you leave, the only question remaining is, who would
you recommend for the next season of Mosaicof China?
SH (27:26):
Right, so I have a friend named Anton. He's an Israeli guy who’s been in China
for a number of years. What's really interestingabout him is, he speaks perfect Mandarin.
OF (27:35):
Wow. SH
in online gaming, like the gaming industryhere. And he works in a Chinese company. And
you know, he will be able to provide someinsights to a totally different industry that
none of the other guests have talked about.But also have a very different experience
as a foreigner living in China, who is totallyplugged in and adaptive in communicating with
(27:59):
locals.OF: Thank you so much. And thank you in general,
it was really great to have you here. AndI look forward to the next time we can meet.
SH (28:06):
My pleasure. Thanks, Oscar.
[Outro]OF: If today’s episode has sparked your
interest, the best accompaniment is my conversationwith Chang Chihyun from Episode 03 of this
Season. Chihyun is in a very similar positionto Seth, because he is working with the product
of an education system that measures everyonequantitatively, and as a Humanities Professor
(28:30):
at Shanghai Jiaotong University, he needsto evaluate them qualitatively.
And speaking of quality, there’s an extra10-15 minutes of quality conversation for
every episode of the Season in the PREMIUMversion of the show on Patreon or 爱发电
[Àifādiàn]. As always, head to https://mosaicofchina.comfor instructions on how to subscribe, and
(28:51):
here are a few clips from today’s show.
[Clip 1]SH: You have some students that are really
sharp and mature, and you have other onesthat have just no clue.
[Clip 2]SH: I actually have a Shanghainese family.
It's one of the things that I think not alot of foreigners who come here have experienced.
[Clip 3]SH: She was like this little Chinese girl,
who's a finance nerd, and she like does likeMMA, and Muay Thai, and boxing, and now I'm
(29:12):
getting excited, I want to know more aboutthat.
[Clip 4]SH: There's not a lot of room for discussion,
and if I teach you two plus two equals five,and I put it on the exam, and you write four,
you're wrong.[Clip 5]
And I think storytelling is one of the most useful skills that you can have. And
any major brand today and their advertisements,they tell a story.
[Clip 6]SH: I thought that the way that I grew up,
and the way that we did things, was correct.Until you step outside of it, you don't see
(29:37):
it.[End of Audio Clips]
While you’re there, you can also check outthe images from today’s show. There’s
Seth with his object, the Portuguese weathercock. He told me that when his cock is light
blue, it means that the weather will be sunnybut overcast. Now isn’t that a handy thing.
There’s his favourite WeChat sticker, whichis a great one to use at the end of a confusing
(29:59):
conversation. There are some photos of himwith a few of his students and their families.
And there’s a bunch of other stuff too.Apart from on the website, you can also follow
the images on Instagram and Facebook - justtype in 'mosaicofchina' and you'll find us
there - or add me on my WeChat ID (30:15):
mosaicofchina, and I'll add you to the listeners group there.
Oh, and the update of the student who wantedto study architecture is that he was accepted
into his first choice of college, which wasthe top-ranked architecture programme at Syracuse
University.
(30:36):
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artworkby Denny Newell. Coming up is a catch-up with
the pain management expert Lissanthea Taylorfrom Season 01 Episode 28, the now wife of
Seth’s best friend, and the person who recommendedhim for the show. And if you do end up tuning
into Lissanthea’s original episode, listenout for the way she answered the final question
(30:58):
in the totally opposite way to Seth.
[Catch-Up Interview]OF: Lissanthea!
Lissanthea Taylor (31:13):
Hi Oscar! OF
updates with, who I'm literally getting asthey have just stepped off the plane. You've
been here, now, a few weeks, right?LT: I'm just over a month back. So almost
a whole year away, which is just bizarre.OF: Well, it's so nice to see you. Why don't
you just quickly mention what your story wassince then until now?
LT (31:37):
Well, I left the country just before Chinese New Year, and thought I was just going to
jaunt off for a short trip to the U.S. fora conference. And then I couldn't get back.
Then I went to Australia, which is where I'mfrom. Then I had to get a very last-minute
flight into Portugal, which was where I wasdue to get married, and meet my now husband,
(31:59):
and got the almost last flight in. When theplane took off from Qatar, I was very relieved,
because I figured I wouldn't like to spendany time in Qatar, stranded. And so I managed
to get to Portugal, get locked down in Portugal,and stayed there for most of the year. We
had to cancel the original wedding. So theoriginal wedding was meant to be the big 150-person,
(32:23):
everyone flying in from overseas, Bonanzaof a wedding. And that couldn't happen. And
you sort of do have to curl up in a cornerand cry a little bit. And then you can pull
yourself back out of it. And you can say “Well,what is possible?” So what was possible
was we did get married, a few months later,in a different kind of way. We were allowed
(32:46):
20 people, and that meant we got to have immediatefamily and best friends. We got to have an
amazing day. We got through the bureaucracy,because you can imagine I'm Australian, but
I'm not a resident of Australia; my husbandis Portuguese, not a resident of Portugal;
and both of us live in China, but we wantto get married. And I think, in the end, the
(33:08):
authorities eventually just went “Ach, letthem do it”.
OF (33:11):
Yeah, because I guess if they're not used to it, they're just gonna say “No,” right?
LT (33:16):
Yeah, it ended up being people just kind of looking at us with crossed eyes and sort
of sighing. “You guys want what?”OF: It's more like “Ach, you made my life
difficult. Like, where is the paperwork forthis particular arrangement?”
You know, this year, for all of us has been interruptions. Maybe kind of an enforced
mindfulness, let's say. You know, to be inPortugal - and, you know, Portugal has some
(33:40):
beautiful coastlines - so I spent a lot oftime on the beach. And I got to know this
beach, the tides, the times of day, the rockpools, even the people, the culture, and that
was an enormous blessing.OF: Right, slowing down to an extreme degree,
(34:02):
where you're looking at literally the shellson the beach.
Exactly. I did start a business as well. OF
you probably still are. I'm intrigued, whatwas your new company?
So yes, I am still a physio. So I've come back, and I'm still seeing patients. I now
work out in 苏州 [Sūzhōu]. So a coupleof days a week.
OF (34:21):
You’re working in 苏州 [Sūzhōu]? LT
know, I'm the only Western-trained physioin a city of 19 million people.
Well, well. Congratulations. LT
for me. So that was nice to come back to.OF: And it's not that far to commute to, right?
I guess you wouldn't do it every day. Buthow long does it take you to get there?
LT (34:40):
It's two hours, about, each way. But as an Australian, I'm used to it. About 12 months
ago, I started work with an Australian company.So the company itself is called Brain Changer.
And Brain Changer is a company started bya person with persisting pain who was able
to use the kind of science that I use in theclinic. And she created her own very clever
(35:03):
self-management system that she used to recoverfrom persisting pain.
OF (35:07):
And, wait a minute, so what can you do remotely? Because when I think about what
you do as a physio, it's all literally hands-on.LT: Right.
So what is the model? LT
model, which wonderfully can be deliveredall by telemedicine.
Oh it's called ‘telemedicine’. LT
(35:29):
what's been really good for us has been theway that the pandemic has forced some corporate
behaviour change.OF: Well, that's really interesting. So you
have, like, one foot in your China world,with a job in 苏州 [Sūzhōu]; you have
one foot in Australia. Like, do you thinkthis is how you're going to try and continue?
Or is this temporary? Like, what what does2021 look like, from your vantage point now?
LT (35:49):
One of the big things I got to do in Portugal was horse-riding. And I've now found a horse-riding
school here. So I can also ride in Shanghai.So for me, 2021 is extending all of those
things. My word for the year is ‘bloom’.I like the idea of ‘blooming’, to turn
(36:12):
into really meaningful things.OF: Well, Lissanthea, I'm going to release
this episode alongside the recording of Seth,who you referred for Season 02.
Wonderful. I'm looking forward to hearing that.
OF (36:23):
So have you been in touch with Seth the whole time?
LT (36:26):
So yes, we have been in contact the whole time. He was meant to come to the wedding.
His parents were meant to come to our wedding.I'm really interested to see the kinds of
things that he's put into his podcast.OF: Thank you so much Lissanthea.
Thank you, Oscar, it’s always a pleasure.
[Trailer]SH: You get experience right after you most
need it.OF: Right.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
Today we are putting a spotlight on the foreignerteacher. And there's something very special
about this subject, because it's one of themost common ways for foreigners to find their
(00:26):
first job, their first identity, and theirfirst footing into a new country like China.
It's how I first came to Asia twenty yearsago, and I'm sure if you weren't one too,
you certainly know someone who was. For somepeople it's a stepping stone into something
else in that new country, and for others - liketoday's guest Seth Harvey - it becomes a gateway
(00:49):
into a longer-term career and passion in education.
Our conversation gets into its flow when wediscuss how Seth interfaces with the education
system and the family unit in China. And it'sa story that reminds us how working with young
adults offers teachers a unique window intothe society in which they operate, and indeed
where that society might be heading in thefuture. Seth is a mellow talker, so today's
(01:15):
episode has the feel of an avuncular firesidechat. So let's slow it down, relax, and take
a listen.
[Part 1]OF: I'm here with Seth Harvey. And Seth, you
do a lot of things, but I guess the principalthing that you do is you're an admissions
advisor, right?SH: Correct, yes. I work for a company that
(01:37):
helps students plan, prepare and apply toschool overseas.
OF (01:42):
Very cool. I know you're involved in education, because of course, you were referred by Lissanthea
last season. So let's hear what Lissantheahad to say.
[Start of Audio Clip]Lissanthea TAYLOR: I'm going to send my friend
Seth Harvey, your way. Seth is the much malignedEnglish teacher.
Nice. LT
universities.OF: Right.
LT (02:02):
So I think you'll have some good questions to ask him about what Chinese kids experience
in education[End of Audio Clip]
OF (02:09):
Lissanthea
SH (02:12):
Lissanthea is amazing. She is engaged to my best friend. If you want to hop into
the object that I brought today, it's actuallykind of related to all of that. So it's a
nice transition.OF: Great, show me.
Alright, let me pull it out here. I just put on the table a weather cock. So it is
(02:32):
a small rooster figurine. And the reason Ipicked this item is, it represents a lot of
things about my lifestyle in China. So first,it was a gift that was brought back by my
best friend - and Lissanthea - from Portugal.My best friend's Portuguese. This little thing
changes colours by the weather.OF: Wow. I can't believe that something so
(02:53):
analogue can actually be so high-tech at thesame time.
Right, that’s a pretty good analogy for China.
OF (02:58):
Right. SH
And a lot of things are still reliant on oldtraditional ways. It does a great job of mixing
new and old together.OF: Your experience in China has been all
in Shanghai, right?SH: Yes, I've never lived anywhere else. I
have no interest in living in any other cities.For me 我是上海人 [Wǒ shì Shànghǎirén].
So that's the local dialect for 'I'm Shanghainese’.I'm a huge fan boy of Shanghai. In my mind,
(03:24):
Shanghai is the best city in the world. AndI'm here definitely by choice.
And how long have you been here now altogether? SH
from my university, just a summer vacationfor three weeks, we did Shanghai and 广州
[Guǎngzhōu]. And I remember having thisfeeling of ‘Man, it's all happening here’.
I was in business school at the time. AndI came home, and I think I was really impacted
(03:46):
by this three-week trip. About every othersentence, I started with “In China…”,
“In China…”, “In China…” I? annoyedeverybody, all my friends and family. So I
said “I'm going to come back”. And in2011, on three weeks notice, I decided I was
going to move here for a year. I had friendsthat taught English, I said “I can do something”.
So I got on a plane with no job; no placeto live; I didn't really know anyone in Shanghai;
(04:07):
I didn't speak any Chinese. It was prettyscary, a big risk. And I came here, and I
made it work, for a little over a year, 2011to 2012. And I returned back to school, finished
school, worked a little bit in the US, andI moved back here in 2015, and I've been here
since.OF: Yeah, that speaks to a certain tenacity
about you, right? You didn't have any plans,but you had the bravery just to come here,
(04:29):
on a whim almost.SH: ‘Tenacity’ is a nice word; ‘stupidity’
would be another way to say it.OF: Let's jump into that then. So tell us
about what your job within the field of educationactually is.
SH (04:41):
Right, so I've had a number of different roles with different companies over the last
five years. I was working for 新东方 [Xīndōngfāng],China New Oriental China. They're the largest
education company in China. They cover everysingle service you could think about, from
English training, to sending kids overseas,to giving prep lessons for test prep, for
(05:03):
everything, of all ages. In January I transitionedto a smaller boutique firm, and we're doing
the same kind of service, and we're focusedon sending Chinese students abroad. For years
now there’s been a trend to send studentsabroad, at various stages of their education.
So some kids go for middle school, boardingschools; some kids go for high school; and
a growing number are going abroad for universities,probably even more popular. My role comes
(05:28):
in at the very end of the process, where weadvise them on preparing themselves in this
last year to do everything they can to shineon a college application. So that's everything
from recommending and advising extracurricularactivities; to planning out their standardised
test dates; and kind of keeping track of theirprocess, and making sure that they're on track,
(05:48):
or that we're starting to address correctionsthat need to be made.
OF (05:51):
And you're not involved in teaching them, but you see the product that the education
system makes of them. They come almost fullyformed, but then you have to mould them for
the next stage. Is that a good enough description?SH: I wouldn't say that’s super accurate.
What we're trying to teach them, and the ideaswe're trying to get them to understand, are
(06:12):
quite different than in an academic setting.We're more focused on developing them personally,
to help them start to form an idea of whothey are, and what they would like to do.
I don't actually feel like there's a lot ofoverlap between school learning and the kind
of realisations and learning that I'm tryingto help them achieve.
Does that say something about the education system?
SH (06:35):
Well, I think there's a lot of things to say about the education system. And no
one has it perfect, I don't think that it'spossible to have some kind of system that’s
that large, that is going to work for everyone.There's a long-standing stereotype that the
education system produces a certain kind ofresult, which is robotic, not being creative,
(06:59):
or “They're very hard working, but it'sa bit formulaic. You can give them an input,
and they produce an output, but there's nota lot of variance in there”. It's been likened
to a factory, where you’re mass-producingpeople. And if you look at it from a more
zoomed-out perspective, by the government,it's kind of smart. I don't think that the
(07:20):
correct approach is to try to produce, youknow, a million Elon Musks a year. That’s
not really sustainable, and it doesn't kindof work on a societal level. One thing about
Chinese people is, I feel like they're especiallygood at long-term planning. They're very patient,
and they kind of look farther ahead. So yousee this in how they approach education; you
(07:41):
see this in how they approach their careers;you see it in how they approach politics in
this country, if you're tuned into those kindsof things. But I work with maybe a certain
section of students that are looking to breakout of that. The Chinese system to go to university
relies on a test called the 高考 [Gāokǎo].A famed test. And this is like the most important
(08:03):
test of any Chinese student’s life. It isincredibly rigorous and competitive, and it
is incredibly determinative of your future.So a lot of parents start their children on
a path, which allows them to sidestep the高考 [Gāokǎo] by looking to go abroad.
It takes a lot of the pressure off, and opensup different opportunities.
OF (08:21):
Which makes them what? That makes them privileged? That makes them slightly counter-cultural?
Like, what kind of parents put their childreninto that situation?
SH (08:31):
Well, I wouldn't say that it's so radical. I think that it's parents that have a different
approach. So I think that you have this youngergeneration of parents in their 40s, to 50.
And they grew up in a certain way. And theyremember how it was, and they're trying to
help their kids have a better approach toit. They say, you know ‘You want to give
(08:53):
your children things you've never had’.And another quote is ‘To teach your children
things you were never taught’. They're veryfamily focused, and they're very focused on
trying to elevate the opportunities in lifeof that next generation. That's the responsibility
that they take on, when they have children.I think the planning process starts, you know…
it probably starts the first time they getthe pregnancy test back. So it's not one of
(09:17):
the things that's done when the child's 15or 16. It's done when they’re, like, 2 or
3. And this process all starts from… they’regetting enrolled in pre-schools and daycares,
where they're being exposed to English, andthey're trying to promote, you know, more
cognitive development. It's a modern day competition.It's like, you know, how do I get the smartest
kid, and the best results? And a child isa parent's greatest investment here. All for
(09:39):
the dream of going to a Harvard or a Cambridgeor brand name school.
OF (09:44):
There'll be people listening to this in different countries thinking “Oh yeah, well
that's the same as my country. We are givingour kids too many standardised tests, and
pushing them too hard in that approach”.Do you think that actually they are similar,
or do you think China has a specific typeof examination system?
SH (10:02):
The average Chinese student goes to school for about 10 hours a day, or more. And on
top of that the student’s gonna do about4 hours of homework, or extra classes, or
prep. So you're looking at a 14 hour day.Now most of us who work a full time job, we
work 8 hours a day, you know, we have a lunchbreak and things like that. Imagine being
shuffled from class to class; and being tested,examined; you need to listen, to be engaged
(10:26):
and focused for 14 hours a day. It's mentallyexhausting. You're basically a mental triathlete.
And you're talking about middle schoolers.So just the sheer rigour of the day-to-day
- to keep up with the amount of homework thatthey're given, and not get left behind - is
incredible. So on one hand, I think that thesestudents are missing out on certain opportunities
(10:49):
to develop their interests, to maintain ahappier childhood that we kind of want. But
on the other hand, I actually think it's anecessary evil. I think kids in this system
are learning important personal characteristicsthat benefit them later in life. So the struggle
that they're experiencing now, where they'rein middle school or high school, I think it
(11:10):
helps them become diligent; it helps themmanage their time; it helps them stay focused,
and push through. And once they learn to dothat, it gives them a little bit of a competitive
advantage over their foreign peers or counterparts.Where I think in the West, we're a little
bit more entitled and individualistic, andthings are a little bit softer. And the reality
(11:32):
of the world is, you know, life's tough. Whenyou get out into the real world, and you have
to work, you know, not all jobs are superfun where you're gonna do your passion. But
at least Chinese students, they have learnedto kind of put their head down, to grin and
bear it, and to work through it. There areupsides to this approach.
OF (11:47):
So when you first encounter these children, at what stage do you usually start working
with them?SH: I would like to start working with them
as early as possible. So the reason that myindustry exists, is because Western and Eastern
education, we value different things. So wehad talked about how test-based the Chinese
education system is, basically everythingis done on a test score. So if you're on a
(12:10):
test, and it's out of 1,000 points, well ifyou got 995, and someone else got 994, well,
then you get the spot, and they don't. Butin the West, we use something called a holistic
approach. Where yes, test scores, academicsare important; but we try to look at kind
of every angle. So it doesn't necessarilymean that you scored high enough, there's
no magic number on a test that will get youadmitted. That's kind of just a precursor,
(12:34):
a prerequisite, to meet a minimum threshold,to show competency. And then we start to look
at other factors, which would be like readingyour essays; trying to get to know your interests;
maybe there's an interview; and to get toknow you on a personal level, to decide if
you're going to be a good successful candidate,who comes and contributes to our academic
institution, our community. Those kind ofthings, more than just “Can you take a test?”
(12:57):
So a battle that I have to fight is to tryto allocate more time, more effort, more resources,
to developing that personal story, and awayfrom preparing for tests. So we could say
I work in education, but I kind of feel thatI work in Marketing. What my job basically
is, is I'm trying to create a brand or a profilefor these students. It's a sales pitch. Every
(13:21):
kid that applies to Harvard has a great SATScore, they have done some community service,
they have an English competency. These kindof things have become homogenised. And for
a Chinese applicant, they kind of just fitinto the same pattern. So my job is to try
to help them break this pattern, to try togive them some kind of hook. Something that
(13:42):
makes them different. We talked about theday of a student, a 14-hour day. Well, there's
not a lot of time or energy left over forthinking about things. So I try to help coach
students to understand some really importantattributes. I try to help them understand
what schools are looking for. And that's partof branding, right? Step one: know your audience
- know your customer, understand the need,understand the want - before you can create
(14:05):
a sales pitch. Chinese are very collective.And the problem that creates is that Chinese
people, they go with the flow. They're alwayslooking at their neighbours, their family
friends, their classmates, their peers, they'retrying to ‘keep up with the Joneses’,
right? In the West, we kind of value rebels,and rule-breakers, and iconoclasts. And that's
(14:26):
something that's not very typical of the averageChinese student.
Is it not just a case of, the ability to stand out, more fundamentally?
SH (14:35):
Yeah, I think so. But how do you do that, Oscar? You know, how do you stand out? Maybe
now you know, because you have life experience,you've tried different things, you've had
careers, you've met a lot of different people.But if you look at the background of the students,
the hard part is, they don't know who theyare. And no-one’s ever asked them that.
Most of the time, they're picking a majoror what they want to study, they're picking
(14:57):
it for one of two reasons. The first reasonwould be that they've done well in school,
and they've gotten kind of positive feedbackfrom teachers, or grades, and someone says
“Hey, you're good at this”. Everybodylikes things that they're good at, right?
So they think “I’ll go and pursue that”.Or the second reason is, it's what their parents
have done. “My dad is an engineer”, or“My dad is in business, and that's what
(15:19):
I want to do”. Parents tend to be, I think,even a stronger role model here. And I don't
really want to get into the psychology ofparent/child relationships in China, and how
they're different than than in the West. ButI think that those kind of factors play a
role as well.OF: In both those examples, it's either they’ve
been told they're good at something; or they’refollowing their parents. But there isn't this
(15:40):
third option where “It's what I want todo”.
Well, China, things develop very quickly here. And I feel there's a tide changing,
where we're seeing more relaxed parents, andwe're seeing children who are becoming more
vocal in the things that they want, and they'restarting to be able to - or feel confident
enough to - kind of push back against maybeoutside guidance, and to follow what they
(16:02):
like. And it's quite amazing, you know, you'reseeing a big trend for students who are very
interested - and then get active - in a numberof issues. That wasn't common just five years
ago. The environment, and making things cleaner,safer, better. Social issues is becoming big,
so the idea of justice and the role of government.Students are starting to think about these
(16:24):
things, trying to do projects about thesethings, they're getting involved. So these
types of students - that have access to moreof an international path - they’re starting
to take part in different competitions, differentorganised events. So a very popular one is
called ‘China Thinks Big’. And China ThinksBig is a research-based competition, where
they're trying to solve some kind of problem.They can pick anything that they're interested
(16:46):
in, and they do this in a group-based project.Or YOC, which is the Youth Observer competition,
where they need to write a six to eight pagearticle, with graphics and research. So these
types of competitions, they start to challengestudents, and to make them think and engage
with the outside world, and be curious.OF: We're talking quite generally until now.
(17:09):
Sure. OF
another one - where you have taken them throughthis story, and seen them on their way to
an American University?SH: I've got one student right now, and he's
really interested in architecture. And theproblem is that this student is kind of struggling
right now to maintain a high enough GPA. Andhe's struggling with his test prep and meeting
(17:31):
SAT and TOEFL requirements. So this summer,he's going to use the summer vacation to focus
on on test prep, and try to get those numbersup. And of course, his dad's an architect.
And the other hobby he has is cycling. Soinstead of spending all of his time doing
test prep this summer, I would like him todo something interesting. I would like to
(17:52):
push him. So for example, I said “Hey, Ilooked up, and I found that you can cycle
from 成都 [Chéngdū] to Lhasa, Tibet. Andthere's a plotted out itinerary, and it takes
27 days. It has it plotted out step by step,day by day, what you're going to do. And yes,
it's going to be tough, but you're takinga journey; I think you personally develop
from this kind of thing. So then when it comesdown to application time, right, you've got
two paths, which are (18:15):
either take a risk and challenge yourself to do this cycling trip,
or study and improve your standardised testscores. Right, so you've got A Path, B Path.
If you take Path A, you have something interestingto write about, and I think this experience
kind of matures you, and gives you substance,right? And on the Path B, if you study, and
(18:35):
you apply to universities, you say “Lookat my test scores,” and they say “OK great,
that meets our minimum requirement. So whatkind of student are you? What are you interested
in?” And there's nothing behind that door.So that's a real challenge, a struggle of
my job, is trying to help them see the value.So you say “I want you to go cycling.”
And they say “But that doesn't improve mygrades. I'm not learning. That's not education”.
(18:56):
And I'm trying to tell them “Yes, it is”.There's a personal education. So you spent
the last, you know, 13 years doing academicstudying. It's time to afford a little bit
of time to develop yourself, and get yourselfprepared.
OF (19:09):
So what happened? Could you persuade him? SH
Right. And I'm guessing that means with the parents, right?
SH (19:15):
Right. Parents are typically open-minded… But part of our service is opening up opportunities,
this is something that they would have neverconsidered or thought of, without maybe an
outside presence. And you know, students whoare like “I've never done anything like
this before.” Like, here's your roadmap,here's your objective. Go. Do. Try. If they
fail, they fail. They come back. But they'restill learning right there. There's learning
(19:38):
in failure.OF: What is it about you, then, that makes
you so well fit for this job?SH: I like that I'm still involved with students,
and something about working with younger people,like teenagers, kind of breathes in some life
into your job. You know, they're still veryoptimistic, and ambitious, and they have kind
(19:58):
of big ideas, and they're maybe naïve, butin a nice way. And I think also, it's kind
of fulfilling a part in myself, where I thinkthat I've made a lot of mistakes. And I think
the fact that I have screwed up and have donethings in a non-traditional or the wrong way
- or that I failed at things - I think that'ssomething that makes me good at my job. I
find myself repeating a lot of idioms frommy dad, but he said “You get experience
(20:22):
right after you most need it”.OF: Right.
It gives me a chance to take that wisdom, and that knowledge that I've accumulated,
and at least pass it along. Someone can beolder, but if they have never tried, if they
have never taken risks, if they've never failed,then I'm not sure how much wisdom they have
to offer.OF: Would you like to talk about one of your
failures? Or would you rather not?SH: If you want to get into a divorce, or
(20:47):
startup companies, or..?OF: I don’t. It’s totally up to you.
I think all of those things. But ultimately, when you look back later in life, I think
those kind of things give you character, giveyou grit, make you interesting, and they make
you more successful in other parts of yourlife.
OF (21:06):
Well, you just used the word ‘grit’. And I think when there’s so much change
going on, you have to be resilient. So I totallythink that your experience is a good life
lesson for the kids that you're mentoring.SH: Yeah. It's not really something that you
can fake.OF: Amen. On that note, let's move on to Part
2.SH: All right.
[Part 2]OF: The 10 questions. Question 1. What is
(21:31):
your favourite China-related fact?SH: The sport of football - soccer - was actually
invented in China. England takes credit forit, but it actually predates England, and
football is a Chinese sport.OF: That's a good one. I think the English,
we are the ones who invented the rules. Sowe like to invent rules, and plant flags,
and stuff like that. Yeah. Number 2, do youhave a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?
SH (21:58):
In Chinese, there's a word in Mandarin, it would be like 没事 [méishì]. And that
means, like ’It's nothing, don't worry aboutit’. And in the Shanghainese dialect, it
would be like ‘méisì’, like they don'treally do the ‘SH’, it’s just like ’S’.
if you throw a little Shanghainese dialectin there, man, it just really opens people
up.OF: What is your favourite destination within
(22:19):
China?SH: I like Hong Kong, because they have a
horse track there. I love to go to Happy Valleyand gamble on horse races.
OF (22:26):
If you left China, what would you miss the most, and what would you miss the least?
SH (22:29):
What would I miss? Man, have you ever tried to take a taxi in New York City?
OF (22:33):
Ah. SH
handle. This is such a well planned out city.It seems so big, but I find that getting around
it from one side to the other is is amazing.Like I said, you can take the bus, you can
take the metro, and you can call a cab forlike two bucks to go anywhere. The thing I
will miss the least would be, ah man, likethe construction. That hammer drill. TA-TA-TA-TA-TA-TA-TA-TA-TA-TA!
(22:59):
Like, everyone knows that, and I think everyone'shad an apartment where somebody's been renovating
next door. So that's a trade-off for the amountof change and development that we enjoy, and
we love. Sometimes that that comes back, andit’s a huge negative.
Is there anything that still surprises you about life in China?
SH (23:17):
I was walking out of my office the other day, and there was a guy, and he had a turtle
on a stick. Like, I think some of us maybeknow what I'm talking about. But I think it's
his pet turtle. So he's got a string wrappedaround its shell, and on a stick. And he just
like carries it around with him and hangsout. You just never know what you're gonna
see. Every day, something new surprises meand like, I feel like that's a huge value.
(23:38):
It's one of the things that I really lovethe most here, is that it's a very unpredictable
place.OF: Nice. Where is your favourite place to
go, to eat or drink or just hang out?SH: I play on a billiards team once a week,
at a bar called Park 91 on 大沽路 [DàgūLù], near People's Square. It's a pretty
cool chill place, the kind of place I canwalk behind the counter and pour my own beer,
(24:01):
and feel very at home there. Shanghai canhave a bit of a materialistic vibe to it,
in a bit of a status-seeking, show-off, luxuryprone kind of way. And I'm just a simple guy
from the Midwest, I have no interest in thingsthat are pretentious.
OF (24:18):
What is the best or worst purchase you made in China?
SH (24:22):
Maybe a gym membership is a great one. I got a four year gym membership. And exercise
is something that I started doing regularlythat kind of grounds my life, it works as
a balancing factor.OF: Worth it. What is your favourite WeChat
sticker?SH: There are two types of WeChat stickers,
right? There's ones that are pulled from likefamous pop culture shows or cartoons and things,
(24:43):
but you can actually make your own stickers.So my girlfriend sends me ones of her that
she's made of herself. So then I find it reallyuseful to send herself back to her. Like a
little bit sarcastically. OK the second one.You know, stickers are a great way to end
a conversation. You know, sometimes peoplesay something outlandish or, you know, communication
is tough, and I like this one of this… whoeverthis actor is, you know, just aghast for words.
(25:08):
And there's like “I don't know what to sayback to that”. You know, sometimes you just
get flustered, and just “Let's end it there”.OF: I use this one a lot.
Yeah. OF
sing at KTV?SH: Oh sorry, I'm such a big hater of KTV.
OF (25:21):
Oooh. SH
it memorised down, but there's a Chinese songcalled 为什么你背着我爱别人 [Wèishéme
Nǐ Bèizhe Wǒ Ài Biérén]. And that translatesto “Why did you betray me? Why did you love
someone else?” But for me, that's that songthat represents my first year in China. And
it was always on the radio, and it has thisvery, super nice melody, da-da da-da-da da-da.
(25:46):
And whenever you try to sing this in KTV,it depresses all the Chinese people.
Oh! SH
And it's like, you know “Why did you betrayme? Why did you cheat on me? You stabbed me
in the back! You went off with someone else!”But, man, the melody is so nice. So I guess
that's my KTV revenge, it’s like “I toldyou I didn't want to go, and now I'm going
to depress all of you with this beautifulsad song”.
(26:08):
The perfect weapon. Very good. And finally, what other China-related sources of information
do you use?SH: I, of course, use SmartShanghai. Like,
that's my number one go-to thing, I read everything.I read every article, like what events are
going on. Like, I even have a pastime, a hobby,where I love going through all the apartment
(26:29):
listings. I'm basically an uncertified apartmentagent, I can tell you what the market value
of things are, and how the market’s doing.I even love going through the classifieds.
And secondly, I use WeChat quite a lot. Iam the biggest lurker of group chats.
Oh. SH
this information, insight. People are like“How do you know that?” “Group chat.”
(26:53):
Yeah. SH
groups, to exercise, cooking, social events.I'm even in a dad's group. So there's a group
for expat fathers, a big one. And they talkabout all kinds of stuff. And I have no kids.
And I don't really remember how… someoneput me into this group… but I never left,
(27:14):
and I just lurk, and I get so much great informationfrom that.
Well, thank you. And before you leave, the only question remaining is, who would
you recommend for the next season of Mosaicof China?
SH (27:26):
Right, so I have a friend named Anton. He's an Israeli guy who’s been in China
for a number of years. What's really interestingabout him is, he speaks perfect Mandarin.
OF (27:35):
Wow. SH
in online gaming, like the gaming industryhere. And he works in a Chinese company. And
you know, he will be able to provide someinsights to a totally different industry that
none of the other guests have talked about.But also have a very different experience
as a foreigner living in China, who is totallyplugged in and adaptive in communicating with
(27:59):
locals.OF: Thank you so much. And thank you in general,
it was really great to have you here. AndI look forward to the next time we can meet.
SH (28:06):
My pleasure. Thanks, Oscar.
[Outro]OF: If today’s episode has sparked your
interest, the best accompaniment is my conversationwith Chang Chihyun from Episode 03 of this
Season. Chihyun is in a very similar positionto Seth, because he is working with the product
of an education system that measures everyonequantitatively, and as a Humanities Professor
(28:30):
at Shanghai Jiaotong University, he needsto evaluate them qualitatively.
And speaking of quality, there’s an extra10-15 minutes of quality conversation for
every episode of the Season in the PREMIUMversion of the show on Patreon or 爱发电
[Àifādiàn]. As always, head to https://mosaicofchina.comfor instructions on how to subscribe, and
(28:51):
here are a few clips from today’s show.
[Clip 1]SH: You have some students that are really
sharp and mature, and you have other onesthat have just no clue.
[Clip 2]SH: I actually have a Shanghainese family.
It's one of the things that I think not alot of foreigners who come here have experienced.
[Clip 3]SH: She was like this little Chinese girl,
who's a finance nerd, and she like does likeMMA, and Muay Thai, and boxing, and now I'm
(29:12):
getting excited, I want to know more aboutthat.
[Clip 4]SH: There's not a lot of room for discussion,
and if I teach you two plus two equals five,and I put it on the exam, and you write four,
you're wrong.[Clip 5]
And I think storytelling is one of the most useful skills that you can have. And
any major brand today and their advertisements,they tell a story.
[Clip 6]SH: I thought that the way that I grew up,
and the way that we did things, was correct.Until you step outside of it, you don't see
(29:37):
it.[End of Audio Clips]
While you’re there, you can also check outthe images from today’s show. There’s
Seth with his object, the Portuguese weathercock. He told me that when his cock is light
blue, it means that the weather will be sunnybut overcast. Now isn’t that a handy thing.
There’s his favourite WeChat sticker, whichis a great one to use at the end of a confusing
(29:59):
conversation. There are some photos of himwith a few of his students and their families.
And there’s a bunch of other stuff too.Apart from on the website, you can also follow
the images on Instagram and Facebook - justtype in 'mosaicofchina' and you'll find us
there - or add me on my WeChat ID (30:15):
mosaicofchina, and I'll add you to the listeners group there.
Oh, and the update of the student who wantedto study architecture is that he was accepted
into his first choice of college, which wasthe top-ranked architecture programme at Syracuse
University.
(30:36):
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artworkby Denny Newell. Coming up is a catch-up with
the pain management expert Lissanthea Taylorfrom Season 01 Episode 28, the now wife of
Seth’s best friend, and the person who recommendedhim for the show. And if you do end up tuning
into Lissanthea’s original episode, listenout for the way she answered the final question
(30:58):
in the totally opposite way to Seth.
[Catch-Up Interview]OF: Lissanthea!
Lissanthea Taylor (31:13):
Hi Oscar! OF
updates with, who I'm literally getting asthey have just stepped off the plane. You've
been here, now, a few weeks, right?LT: I'm just over a month back. So almost
a whole year away, which is just bizarre.OF: Well, it's so nice to see you. Why don't
you just quickly mention what your story wassince then until now?
LT (31:37):
Well, I left the country just before Chinese New Year, and thought I was just going to
jaunt off for a short trip to the U.S. fora conference. And then I couldn't get back.
Then I went to Australia, which is where I'mfrom. Then I had to get a very last-minute
flight into Portugal, which was where I wasdue to get married, and meet my now husband,
(31:59):
and got the almost last flight in. When theplane took off from Qatar, I was very relieved,
because I figured I wouldn't like to spendany time in Qatar, stranded. And so I managed
to get to Portugal, get locked down in Portugal,and stayed there for most of the year. We
had to cancel the original wedding. So theoriginal wedding was meant to be the big 150-person,
(32:23):
everyone flying in from overseas, Bonanzaof a wedding. And that couldn't happen. And
you sort of do have to curl up in a cornerand cry a little bit. And then you can pull
yourself back out of it. And you can say “Well,what is possible?” So what was possible
was we did get married, a few months later,in a different kind of way. We were allowed
(32:46):
20 people, and that meant we got to have immediatefamily and best friends. We got to have an
amazing day. We got through the bureaucracy,because you can imagine I'm Australian, but
I'm not a resident of Australia; my husbandis Portuguese, not a resident of Portugal;
and both of us live in China, but we wantto get married. And I think, in the end, the
(33:08):
authorities eventually just went “Ach, letthem do it”.
OF (33:11):
Yeah, because I guess if they're not used to it, they're just gonna say “No,” right?
LT (33:16):
Yeah, it ended up being people just kind of looking at us with crossed eyes and sort
of sighing. “You guys want what?”OF: It's more like “Ach, you made my life
difficult. Like, where is the paperwork forthis particular arrangement?”
You know, this year, for all of us has been interruptions. Maybe kind of an enforced
mindfulness, let's say. You know, to be inPortugal - and, you know, Portugal has some
(33:40):
beautiful coastlines - so I spent a lot oftime on the beach. And I got to know this
beach, the tides, the times of day, the rockpools, even the people, the culture, and that
was an enormous blessing.OF: Right, slowing down to an extreme degree,
(34:02):
where you're looking at literally the shellson the beach.
Exactly. I did start a business as well. OF
you probably still are. I'm intrigued, whatwas your new company?
So yes, I am still a physio. So I've come back, and I'm still seeing patients. I now
work out in 苏州 [Sūzhōu]. So a coupleof days a week.
OF (34:21):
You’re working in 苏州 [Sūzhōu]? LT
know, I'm the only Western-trained physioin a city of 19 million people.
Well, well. Congratulations. LT
for me. So that was nice to come back to.OF: And it's not that far to commute to, right?
I guess you wouldn't do it every day. Buthow long does it take you to get there?
LT (34:40):
It's two hours, about, each way. But as an Australian, I'm used to it. About 12 months
ago, I started work with an Australian company.So the company itself is called Brain Changer.
And Brain Changer is a company started bya person with persisting pain who was able
to use the kind of science that I use in theclinic. And she created her own very clever
(35:03):
self-management system that she used to recoverfrom persisting pain.
OF (35:07):
And, wait a minute, so what can you do remotely? Because when I think about what
you do as a physio, it's all literally hands-on.LT: Right.
So what is the model? LT
model, which wonderfully can be deliveredall by telemedicine.
Oh it's called ‘telemedicine’. LT
(35:29):
what's been really good for us has been theway that the pandemic has forced some corporate
behaviour change.OF: Well, that's really interesting. So you
have, like, one foot in your China world,with a job in 苏州 [Sūzhōu]; you have
one foot in Australia. Like, do you thinkthis is how you're going to try and continue?
Or is this temporary? Like, what what does2021 look like, from your vantage point now?
LT (35:49):
One of the big things I got to do in Portugal was horse-riding. And I've now found a horse-riding
school here. So I can also ride in Shanghai.So for me, 2021 is extending all of those
things. My word for the year is ‘bloom’.I like the idea of ‘blooming’, to turn
(36:12):
into really meaningful things.OF: Well, Lissanthea, I'm going to release
this episode alongside the recording of Seth,who you referred for Season 02.
Wonderful. I'm looking forward to hearing that.
OF (36:23):
So have you been in touch with Seth the whole time?
LT (36:26):
So yes, we have been in contact the whole time. He was meant to come to the wedding.
His parents were meant to come to our wedding.I'm really interested to see the kinds of
things that he's put into his podcast.OF: Thank you so much Lissanthea.
Thank you, Oscar, it’s always a pleasure.
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