085 – Elevating Arizona's Mountain Biking Scene: TORCA's Mt. Lemmon Trail Building Initiative. (Nick Giovannucci & Matt Hrabko) - Mountain Cog

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Josh (00:11):
people get upset with you.
People get upset with me,especially with my security
clearance.
They all think I'm smoking weed.
No, they want you to be small.

Dane (00:18):
I know I wish I could.
And then they're like what he'sjust slurping water.

Josh (00:21):
So what?
What'd you think, Matt?
Was the music good?

Matt Hrabko (00:26):
That was a lot better than it was before.

Josh (00:31):
We started the podcast early and Matt's like I thought
he said is that supposed to bemusic?
And what he was really sayingis is there supposed to be music
?

Dane (00:39):
Because we're all dancing and his headphones weren't
working.

Josh (00:44):
And I'm like screw you, screw you, man, I wrote that
song.
All right, man, you gotsomething for us I do.

Nick Giovannucci (00:52):
How does everyone feel about a dad joke?
Oh, let's hear it.
Yeah, we like it.
What do you call deer with noeyes?

Dane (01:00):
I have no idea oh, you ruined it.
This is what you get fortelling Dana no it's because I
always feel like I never havethe answer.
I wanted to win this time.

Josh (01:10):
At least one time I wanted to win, I cheated because Nick
told me the joke, so I knew.

Should have had another one ready.

Josh (01:17):
I know that was a good joke, by the way I got to admit,
I always mess up dad jokes.

I always get the punchline wrong.
I can never guess Eileen orsomething.

Dane (01:26):
Yeah, I can never remember the joke.

Josh (01:28):
And then I, yeah, I ended up doing it, it's so funny that,
like the one that Matt brought,was the exact same one that we
used in last week with the lastrecording with Corbin.

Yeah, that's what happens when you Google search.
Dad jokes yeah Well, yeah well.
We did that too, like fiveminutes before the podcast.

Josh (01:42):
Oh yeah, no, that's exactly how I came up with that
one, so that's probably.
Yeah, I texted Matt.
I'm like, bring a dad joke, dadjoke of the week, but Nick
brought one and then Dane ruinedit.
Yep, hey, so we're here withthe guys from TORCA.
Torca are the Tucson off-roadcyclists and activists.

We have Nick Damn look at that.

Josh (02:01):
It's almost like I'm a linguist and Matt Rabko.

Ooh, spot on which.

Dane (02:05):
I just recently got corrected because I've been
calling you Harabko forever andDane slapped me over the head
this weekend at sunrise I had toask him how to pronounce it,
just because I kept writing itand I'm like I have no idea how
to pronounce your name.

Josh (02:17):
And he told me when does your last name come from?

What nationality is it?
It's like somewhere in thehungary region, okay, um, this
is way before what hungary isnow.

Dane (02:29):
So it's like somewhere in romania, czechoslovakia,
somewhere in there it's, it'scool, it's very different, like
it's definitely not a jones or asmith.
So okay.

Josh (02:36):
So torca, you know the tucson off-road cyclist and
activist.
They got a mission to preservethe tradition, condition and
etiquette of the trail and topresent novel trail
opportunities in a sustainableand reasonable manner.
Is that still your missionstatement, did I do?
Okay?
If not, your website's out ofdate.

That is spot on, very good.

Dane (02:57):
Matt's like that sounds good, that sounds real good.

Did I write that?
Did you write that you might?

Josh (03:03):
have no, no, not you.
Our legendary forefathers wrotethat the forefathers, the TORCA
forefathers and mothers and theyrepresent the facets of
mountain biking, all facets ofmountain biking community.
Enjoy riding all of the trailsthat Tucson has to offer.
Yes, so we are a.
So, guys, as we're talkingtoday, we are a global podcasts.

(03:24):
We have listeners from likeliterally all over the world,
many, many, many countries.
So, as we're talking about kindof local Tucson stuff, if we
can take a vibe to like kind ofapply it outside of Tucson, so
like maybe other trail advocacygroups, um, you know, both
within the United States, canadaand then internationally, you
guys could help us with that,that'd be awesome.

Dane (03:40):
Yeah, what do you think Can you do?
It Sounds good, sound good,right on man.
All right.
So you know I've got, I've gotquestions.
So can you guys introduceyourselves?
Maybe do Nick first and thenMatt and introduce, just kind of
tell us a little bit who youare and your role in TORCA.

Yeah, I can do that.
My name is Nick Giovannucci.
I am T that.
Uh, my name is nick giovanucci.
I am torca president.
I've been president since lastoctober, so almost a year now.
Um, I've been, I think,volunteering since 2018.
Ish, I've been the treasurerfor the last few years and a
board member as well.
Um, like to get involved?

(04:21):
Uh, we need new trails and Iwant to make that happen,
especially at mount lemon.
Uh, enjoy riding all thosetrails up there, as well as
anything in tucson and whereverI can bring my bike to outside
of the state or some town.

Yeah, um, I am matt rabco and I've been a board
member since 2018.
And yeah, I just like gettingmy hands dirty and, you know,
making sweet trails for everyoneto enjoy.

Josh (04:54):
All right.
So along with your roles in,you know, in Torca, that's great
.
But I'm interested like how didyou guys initially get involved
in like trail advocacy, likedid it start with Torca, or like
you know what's your background?

in mountain biking.
How'd you get involved in, liketrail advocacy, like, did it
start with torco or like youknow what's your background in
mountain biking?
How'd you get, how'd you getinvolved in in trail advocacy?
We'll start with you, nick.
So I've been riding for about10 years now, which is a lot
less than matt.
So, um, he's got a much deeperbackground than I have, but you
can tell from his gray beard.

Josh (05:22):
Yeah, that's where it starts, buddy.
This is like you know.
This is the next gen, righthere.

Dane (05:28):
Nick has like no gray hairs, yet my beard is red when
it grows.

And I mean I wanted to ride and I had a very
hard time when I moved here, uh,right after college and started
riding bikes and I didn'treally know how to network with
people who rode.
And I eventually found a fewpeople and started doing work
with them and being able tounderstand where, why trails are

(05:58):
a certain way and see them kindof up close without a bike and
understand why certain featuresare this way or that way and
wanting to give back and feelinglike there's not enough people
who do that.
My wife and I got superinvolved and she is currently

(06:20):
our secretary.
I'm an Eagle Scout, Ivolunteered a lot when I was
doing that and I feel like it'sa good thing to do and more
people need to do it and I'mtrying to set a good example.

Josh (06:34):
So you're like force multiplying now it's not just
your time.
You're like organizing othersand getting getting others
Exactly.

And I never thought I'd be the president.
I know, years ago people werelike, oh, you're going to be the
president one day and I waslike I don't know if I'm ready
for that.
And then it happened and Ithink I'm doing pretty well.

Is he doing well?

Matt.

Josh (06:56):
Is he doing well?

He's doing pretty all right.
That's high praise, actually Iknow Matt.

Josh (07:01):
That's high praise from Matt right.

Dane (07:03):
You don't get like an attaboy that much.

Josh (07:07):
So you came to Tucson, got into the scene.
We're like, who do I meet?
And you're like, hey, how thehell did these trails get here?
How do they keep maintain?
And you started researching,and then your background and
being an Eagle scout.
I think this might be the firstEagle scout we've had on the
podcast.

Dane (07:20):
That's awesome.
I didn't make it that far.
I've dropped out right beforethat and like I am envious cause
that's pretty awesome.

Josh (07:26):
Yeah, it is super awesome, so you just took what you
learned there and you'reapplying it now to the mountain
bike scene.
So that's awesome, man, matt,what about?

you brother.
Oh man, Um, I mean I startedmountain biking back at the turn
of the century and wait well,which century?

The previous one?

okay, yeah, so 20 x years, early 1900s, that is 700
years old I am part vampire nowum, yeah, uh, when I've got
into, uh, high school, um gotintroduced to this cool thing
called mountain biking.
Um, which I thought was just abunch of geeks on spandex with

(08:08):
weird extensions on their barslike pedaling super fast.

Dane (08:12):
They're only weird if they're not anodized.
Yeah Well, that was the coolpart is they anodized colors
back then?

But then my friend showed me New World Disorder and
people sending off of hugecliffs and jumping and metal
music and it was super bad-ass.

Dane (08:26):
Yes.

And I'm like yo, yeah, that's what I want to do.
Chain smoke oh yeah.

Dane (08:31):
So all that's hope traction.
Oh yeah, oh that's, I stillhave all of those yeah, On like
you're not talking about chainsmoking.
No, it's, it's chain.
Smoke the video.
Chain smokes the video.

Josh (08:45):
Cause yeah, Like cause when we first started riding, we
used to take smoke breaks inthe middle of our ride.
They're called safety meetingssafety meetings.

Dane (08:47):
There you go, yeah, yeah.
No, the videos that you just Imean those were the iconic ones
that started and that's what wewould.
We would sit around and watchthose before a race to get
psyched up.

Josh (08:57):
So we have like four generations of mountain bikers
here.
Yes, it's super interesting.
Yeah, you know, we got kind ofnext gen Yep, mid gen Yep, then
like kind of the boomer gen andthen like the world war two.

Dane (09:08):
Yeah, I'm like ancient.
He says that all the time.
I'm 29 years old.

Josh (09:15):
He's like four years older than me.

Dane (09:19):
Pretty sure I'm like 13 years younger than you.

Josh (09:22):
You keep thinking that buddy, you keep thinking that,
so how'd you get that?
So that's how you got intomountain biking.
How'd you get into advocacy?

Uh, well, you know, I've always, uh, you know,
built sketchy jumps in the backof my house and stuff like that,
and in the woods where I wasn'tsupposed to, and um, so that
was cool and, yeah, startedbuilding cat trails.

Dane (09:47):
Social trails.

Out and around there and maintaining them, and
it's a really cool place to doit.
There's trees and there's dirt.
There's a stuff called dirt.
Yeah, it's brown and it'samazing to dig in.
You can actually dig into anyrocks in this dirt Zero rocks.

Josh (10:08):
What the joke here is.
We live in the desert, yeah,and it's basically like you know
even the dirt is hard as thedirt, the rocks it's.

Dane (10:15):
It's really tough to like, create and maintain trails here
in tucson you have to take alike a pick or a like a breaker
bar and like, chip the dirt away.
That's yeah.

Sometimes dynamite, yes, yeah when I first moved
here, people describe theterrain as we have rocks with
little rocks in between it.
That's about right but it.

Josh (10:35):
But don't let us turn you off.
It is some of the best ridingin the country it's incredible.

I believe that yeah 100, so okay.

Josh (10:41):
So that's how you got like unofficially like kind of doing
social trails and Santa Cruzwhen you're in college.
How'd you get like intoorganized advocacy?

Well, moved here to Tucson yeah.

Josh (10:50):
When did you move?

here, matt, that was fall of 18 and, like the
next weekend, like I didn't knowanybody here, like I didn't
know anything, I've never riddenhere, um, so, uh, that weekend
there is this cool party thattorco was putting on.
Uh, it's called the pachanga,and it was a whole weekend of
barbecues, shuttle rides,funderos, uh, demos, um, and I'm

(11:15):
like, oh, that sounds fun, I'llsign up for that.
Dude, I don't even know aboutthis.

Josh (11:18):
I've been riding mountain bikes for 25 years.
I've never heard of this.
So we gotta, we have to work onyour marketing and also you can
tell me more me more about it.

We should resurrect it, it is a lot of
work.
Resurrect it, man, let's do it.

Dane (11:27):
Yeah, we need some more people on the board.
They have the pachanga.

Oh, I don't know, but that was the last one.
I know that.
That was when Rocky was thereon a bike or a mini version, but
it kept getting bigger, yeah,yeah, yeah.
No, it's super sick and um andyeah.
So I didn't know anybody and Iwas supposed to be camping up
there, but I didn't know thiswas all on mount lemon yeah,

(11:51):
this is all about lemon right on.
And so I just rolled in with,like, my enduro bike, my
hardtail, my cross-country gear,my downhill gear, my drug like
everything.

Josh (11:59):
I have no idea what's going.

I don't know, what's going, what to expect?

Like I brought my tent, food for like a week and
then like a case of beer, and Ijust went down to all the
campsites and played hey, mister, can I be your friend?
Yeah, um and uh, yeah, ended upmeeting some of the best
friends I have now, and thenalso Tara, um and art, who were

(12:26):
president, the founders ofhomegrown mountain biking tours.

Josh (12:27):
Yeah, shout out to Tara.
I don't remember what episode,I'll put it in the show notes,
but Tara has been on the podcastbefore when we talked about
homegrown.
So shout out to Tara, she'sawesome.

Yeah, so yeah, and being them and I'm like, hey, I
like to do trail work, they'relike, come on out to red Ridge
and you know, go play trailswith us.
And so that was pretty much thestart of that, yeah, and so it
was like my on-trail interviewfor Torca and Homegrown at the
same time.
That's awesome.

Josh (12:49):
And you currently work for Homegrown, is that right?
Yeah, for well, since then,however many years, that is,
since 2018.
Yeah, wow.
So you just like randomly wentto a party in the mountains?
Yeah, Met all your best friends, got a job like it all just
came from there, yeah, andeventually, in a couple

(13:09):
different steps, uh led to memeeting my wife too.
Oh wow, yeah, right on, dude,yeah, so I guess that means like
go to go to mountain bikeparties, because that's your
life, can change exactly it'strue, usually for the better.
You may get a job and a wife,yep so nick we, uh, we read
earlier kind of torca's missionstatement of preserving
tradition, condition andetiquette of the trail and to
present novel trailopportunities in a sustainable
and responsible manner.

(13:29):
Hey, what does novel mean, dame?

Dane (13:31):
uh, it's a book I believe that you read.

Josh (13:33):
I'm pretty sure I think it means new, right, new and
interesting.
New and interesting damn it,but uh, okay, so we've.
We've learned about y'all'sbackground and appreciate the
information there.
Tell us a little bit more aboutTORCA.
Tell us about the organization,your goals, your members.
How do you guys operate?

What are your operating tenets?
So we are, that's a bigquestion.
That's a big question, I know,I know, I know.

Josh (14:01):
All these questions are going to be big questions, so
just get ready for it.

It also depends on who you ask too.
Well, I'm asking the presidentof Torca, so if he, can't answer
.

we got problems, no pressure brother,
so I can't.
I'm probably not going toanswer that directly, but I'll
give you some of the backgroundof kind of where we're at.
So currently we are a board offive people, um, which is very
small and, uh, there's a lotgoing on right now.

(14:31):
How?

Josh (14:32):
many members?
If you have five people on theboard, how many?
How many contributors do youand volunteers do you have?
Would you estimate?

so we have 200 um members.

Josh (14:39):
Yes, 200 members members yeah, and you're looking to
expand your board to have folksum what more folks contribute?

yes, definitely we.
Currently we have bylaws thathave been written and voted on
by the member base and the wayto change them is pretty arduous
and not easy.
We have welcome to bigorganizations.

Josh (15:02):
Exactly.

We have five people there.
I think everyone is a verysolid contributor right now.
That's good.
We want to expand that tolighten the load as well, as
we're also kind of working withsomeone for starting over the
last month or so to kind of be acontractor for us to help us

(15:28):
with fundraising, grant writingbetter, more publicity and
engaging the community moreright on that, I think, is
probably the biggest thing wewant to do and to help us run
our organization and grow it.
Some of the listeners I knowwho are local probably will know

(15:53):
about the Santa Catalina trailsplan.
Currently.
I mean, I think in 2021, therewas the comment period for that
and then 2022, the actual plancame out, and then we are
currently phase one is partiallyapproved.

Josh (16:18):
So for our international listeners, we've got this badass
mountain like right in thecenter of Tucson.

We call it.

Josh (16:22):
Mount.

Lemon, but it's part of the Santa Catalinas.

Josh (16:25):
Yes, Santa Cantalinas.

Catalinas.

Josh (16:27):
Catalinas, jesus Christ, you'd think I could pronounce
that I've lived here for 25years.

Dane (16:31):
Have you had enough whiskey?
No, Okay.
I was thinking you need alittle more.

Josh (16:38):
So we have this amazing resource in Tucson this amazing
mountain, badass, vertical drop,great mountain, like like
resource in Tucson this amazingmountain, bad-ass, vertical drop
, great mountain, bike trails,raw, epic, just amazing, like
one of the best places in thecountry to ride.
So when you're referencing theSanta Catalina, that's what
you're talking about is liketrails plan for that background.
So like, like you know, forinternational listeners, like if
you haven't been to Tucson, goddamn it, get out here Like we

(16:59):
are.
Bike town USA it is, it is sickout here.
Bike town usa it is, it is sickout here.
And uh, not many people knowthis and tara talked about this
a bit and obviously withhomegrown, but we've got just
fucking badass downhill ridinghere.

We do, but keep going yeah, so we're in the
process of of kind of expandingthat mountain.
We have a lot of greatpotential.
Um, currently, the whole frontrange is is in wilderness and we
can't have bikes in there, butthe whole main mid-mountain is
all up for grabs.

(17:31):
Everything is multi-use though.
So, working with the ForestService and having us
represented as a major usergroup and getting more mileage
Because currently there's reallykind of two ways down the
mountain.
Now, the back side, which isred ridge that we mentioned,
which is a little bit more backcountry uh, it's uh not if you

(17:56):
have a flat or you break abended derailleur hanger, if you
don't have tram transmission,um, you going to be in for a
rough time.
Zing, there you go.

Dane (18:08):
If you don't have SRAM transmission, if you're running
anything but Shimano you'rescrewed.
Notice how he didn't sayShimano.
No, he didn't, he didn't hedidn't he didn't, I'm going to
put my Shimano tag on Please put

it on.
I had to throw that in there.
But that's a great ride and nottoo many people get to ride it
very often because it is prettyremote.
But the full Lemon Drop comesdown what is called the front
side of the mountain.

Josh (18:35):
Yeah, so what is the Lemon Drop?
We've talked about the LemonDrop a little bit, but kind of,
maybe give us some, since youreferenced it.
Give us some explanation ofwhat the lemon drop is.

So the lemon drop is 30, 32 ish miles down
kind of the South face of themountain.
There's a bunch of differentsegments.
They're all different trails.
The easiest one of them is aintermediate slash, advanced.
More than half of them aredouble black diamond, very
technical, very exposed, veryraw.

(19:05):
There's roughly what eight tonine thousand feet of descent in
there.
Um, with about three or fourthousand feet of ascent.
It is no, no easy feat to do,um, I've done it once from the
bottom to top.
There is a very few selectpeople who like to pedal up from

(19:26):
the bottom and do all thosetrails self-supported
self-supported yeah, they have asag crew helping them with that
, though, so do you rememberyour time?

Dane (19:36):
what was your time?

I think it took about seven ish hours.
I know I almost lost a pedaloff a spindle at the starter or
at the end of green mountain.
Um, it is amazing, and you seeevery type of terrain starting,
your time was seven hours fromthe bottom to no, no, we had a
shuttle.
Oh, from the top, from the topdown.

Josh (19:57):
Yeah, I was about to like bow down to you, no, no I do
want to do it self.

I do want to do it self-supported and do the
water fill up, but there's avery small window of weather
that that is doable.

Dane (20:09):
I think my time was nine hours and it was a no-joke ride.
There's a lot more climbingthan you think yeah exactly.

Josh (20:17):
If it's 3,000 to 4,000 feet of climbing, that's a lot
of climbing.
It is a lot.

Dane (20:21):
Because you think I'm going to be at the top of the
mountain.
I might end up at the bottom,but yeah, there's a lot of
ridges in between.

Josh (20:27):
Yeah, just shout out to the Mount Graham.
Oh yeah, the Graham Cracker6,800 feet of descent.
I don't think there's anyclimbing.

Not that I can remember.
Is there any?

climbing.
You just did it just a littlebit, not nearly as much as the
uh as the lemon drop for sure onthe trail, not but to get to
all right.

Josh (20:47):
So we're not talking about mount graham, we're talking
about santa cana.

Litas, go for it so, yeah, there's basically
one way down that south side ofthe mountain and the last trail
that was built was built about10 years ago or so, maybe 11
years ago, and that wasincinerator ridge, um, and there
hasn't been any new buildssince, or any sanctioned new
builds.
So there's been a fewunsanctioned, but they're not

(21:11):
that long.
We won't talk about that.
This trails plan is reallyfocusing on adding mileage for
every user group, so mountainbikers, hikers and the
equestrian uh user groups, aswell as access to hiking trails
for the climbers.
Uh, we are, we push very hardto get as much mileage in there

(21:36):
as possible.
Um, there are three or fourtrails I don't know if we should
get into them in detail rightnow um that that have been
submitted as of what lastwednesday, I think, technically
was the user group meeting thatwe had um and nobody objected to
anyone else's trails.

(21:56):
So that is the kickoff for theapproval process, which phase
two for phase, which is notsuper quick, unfortunately,
because, because, the government.

Josh (22:07):
Yeah, I mean best I can tell like shovels in the ground
a year from now.

If you're lucky, our best case.
If I'm lucky, or like two youthink it's two years- Hopefully
a year and a half.

I hope for closer to a year, but no, you're
probably right, matt, I'mprobably too optimistic on that.
But yeah, with that approvalprocess it goes through an
archaeological survey,endangered species survey.
All the Mexican spotted owl isbreeding on anywhere in the

(22:40):
pines from, I think, march 1stto August 30th, right or um
there.
So uh, or august 31st, um theywe have submitted and scouted
and scouting the terrain upthere is incredibly unforgiving

(23:00):
on some of our scouting missions.
Um, I know that I uh kind ofdidn't really procrastinate, but
we had a, an idea for a trailthat uh for kind of mid to lower
mountain that would parallelbug spring, which is that bugs
junior.
So bug junior was the name ofthe trail and then it changed to

(23:24):
bug senior.
We had a different, longer onebut ultimately that didn't pass.

Josh (23:30):
I I was in the meeting with Matt last week on Wednesday
.
That didn't pan out.

We found an 80% solution and that solution
was going to cost about amillion dollars to build.
It was going to be sick, yeah.

Josh (23:48):
You spend a million dollars on a trill.
It better be sick it betterhave a chairlift I think there
was a.

The feature that was made at the million
dollars was the valley of brokendreams or lost dreams or
something that you guysnicknamed it um, that is uh and
the molino vista the molino,yeah, that too, um, but that
really, based on our operatingbudget, is going to take a long
time to build and we don't havethat kind of money just sitting

(24:18):
under the mattress ready tospend.
We decided or in June I decidedto scout a trail off the control
road off the backside of Mountlemon that uh doesn't really
have a whole lot of traffic.
And uh, there was a concept umthat was provided to me from

(24:40):
eric from outslope solutions,who is a contractor for the
forest service, and he never, hedidn't ground truth, that I
ground truth did a few times andit was pretty painful, um,
based on all the the thornbushes.
But, um, we have a great umsolution that will be a flow
trail with some, uh, small blines as well as possibly some

(25:01):
jumps on those b lines, and itwill be directional and mountain
bike optimized and um, and kindof probably where there's no
hikers.
I mean no hikers it will be agreat kind of um.
I think aspen draw might be oddeven next summer to de-conflict

(25:23):
with the hikers because thattrail is um.

Josh (25:25):
I don't know if we want to give a big explanation on that,
but yeah, so so I mean like soI sat in the meeting, right and,
and so they talked about someof the trails that we all ride.
You know, 1918 secret.
They talked about uh, what else?
Bigelow.
They talked about adopting allthose trails, doing some
improvements to them.
I think 1980 they're gonna moveup the the wash a bit secret.

(25:46):
They're gonna blow out some ofthe some of the turns to make it
more like you, you knowuser-friendly I, although I
think you can still do the jumpsor whatever over the grade
reversals yeah.
Yeah, Great reversals, and thenuh.
I think they had two flowtrails they mentioned.

Yeah, so um secret is going to be adopted.
Uh, so that's cool.
Um, it's a half mile of, uhwildcat trail.
That's been around for I don'teven know how long.

Josh (26:10):
Yeah, since I've been here , yeah, yeah.

It's heavily used, well-known, everyone knows about
it, not so secret.

Josh (26:17):
Super secret.
Do people know about supersecret?

Everyone knows about super secret.

Josh (26:23):
There's no secrets about 11, at least not that I know of,
yeah, but but I can tell thatNick knows some but there's
another trail that we scoutedout just above that, so it's a
little bit longer trail.

It's about a mile and a half and it follows a fire
line which, if you know thetopography, the front side of
Mount Lemmon or the south side,is a pretty relatively mellow
grade that just goes down intotucson and the backside is
fairly cliffy.
So, um, right beyond the ridgeline there, uh, there's a, you

(26:59):
know, 500 foot cliff or whateverit's.
It's solid.
But, um, on top of that ridgeline, uh, there's a great fire
line that they made, um, notthis last bighorn fire, but the
previous fire, um, and it wasgreat.

Josh (27:14):
It's this great like, uh, open area with trees and dirt
which is a real anomaly aroundhere, which is anomaly in the
desert yep, um, and so that'sthe uh, the first uh bike
optimized directional trail thatwe were um, scanning, uh,
scouting and planning out so,ultimately, in this whole, like
like phase two, like some of thetrails, that some of the social

(27:36):
trails will be adopted and be,you know, formally, like, like
you know, within the trailsystem maintained, and all that
kind of stuff, and then there'sabout, I think I I saw like
somewhere between five and sixadditional miles of, like
mountain bike specific, two, twodifferent trails, but, but you
know, mountains, mountain bikespecific yeah, so the only two
mountain bike specific oroptimized trails they can't

(27:57):
actually have, like yeahmountain bike optimized trails
gotcha uh, because once againgovernment yeah, um, but yeah
and there's different trailadvocacy groups all working with
this right.

It's not just mountain bike support, it's
equestrian, it's hikers it'severybody, yeah, and we even
have casa, which is the local umyou know rock climbing group as
well, out there doing theirpart, but actually the mountain
biking uh sector was the mostoutspoken during the comment
period in the 2020s, yeah sothat's pretty cool.

(28:29):
So we kind of it's pretty coolto see the whole community kind
of rally together and, um, youknow, push for that voice, which
was definitely heard, uh, sothat's super cool and, um, you
know, we do a lot of work outthere.
We maintain, you know, a lot ofthe multi-use trails that
everyone uses it.

Dane (28:47):
It blows my mind how much you guys do that.
It's like it has nothing to dowith writing, like you have to
learn about endangered species,you have to learn about
archeological issues, you haveto deal with other user groups,
and so you guys are areconstantly in touch with the
forest service.
So how is that?
I mean, we keep sayinggovernment, but it's the forest

(29:08):
service that you're dealing withmostly.

Josh (29:11):
So in there, and so you have to and you guys have been
really successful.
Yeah Right, like.
So, like what is your theamount of work, the amount of
work?
So, like, tell us, like what'sit like to work with the Forest
Service?
And like, what are the what'sthe secret sauce?
For, like you know, people allover the United States who are
listening to you guys beensuccessful.

Dane (29:28):
Well, and I actually aside from the success, but if you
were gonna tell somebody inanother place that's gonna start
doing what you're doing, isthere any shortcuts or like
pitfalls that you would tellthem to stay away from or that
they should absolutely do, or,uh, you know what?
What are some pointers to themthat you feel like you really
learned?

so I mean do you want me to take this matt
Matt?
I mean, that's a big ass.

Josh (29:53):
I told you all these are big questions, guys.

I just got the deer in the headlights, I mean, yeah
, no, you guys have blown usaway with your success?

Josh (29:59):
That's where these questions are coming from.
You guys have been supersuccessful, like it's happen,
yeah, so we're definitelystanding on the shoulders of
legends here.

You know there's a lot of people that came before
us.
You know, tara and ArtAlcantara and Bernie Akins were
the originators of Torca andthey, you know, saw a need for
trail advocacy on the mountainbecause there really wasn't
anybody that was actually doinganything on Mount Lemmon.
There's a lot of stuff intucson in general.

(30:42):
Sdmb was doing great um but um,yeah, they started this whole
advocacy advocacy group and backwhen I started they had this
idea to um, go to the forestservice with this.
You know trails plan.
You know of plan of if we hadinfinite money, what trails
would we want to put on?

Josh (30:55):
Mount Lemmon.
So did TORCA develop the trailsplan initially and take it as a
proposal to the Forest Service.

I don't want to say that in so many words, but it
seems that way We've beenpushing for a long time.

Dane (31:08):
We've definitely been pushing and trying to get the
Forest Service to actually payattention, Because I've talked
to some forest people and itseems like they don't actually
want us up there.
That's not fair to them.

Josh (31:20):
There's a lot of them that are great.

Dane (31:21):
It's totally not fair to them, but in general their edict
is to try and protect theforest and to take care of it.

Josh (31:29):
I don't think that's their edict.
To try and protect the forestand to take care of it?
I don't think that's theiredict, do you guys think?

that's their edict.
What's what's what's what's?
That's what I've heard.
Depends who you're talking to.
I mean, we have we talked to umthe recreation staff officer
most frequently um of the SantaCatalina district, because there
are five districts withinCoronado.
In coronado, um, this is by farthe most the busiest one
because it's closest to tucsonright we are one of, I think, 30

(31:55):
different partner groups, whichis that's a way that's a huge
amount of people and, yeah, thanany other district, um of any
other forest that I've heard.
So it's all kind of we want tohave our voices heard but we
can't, um, can't trampleeveryone else, because everyone

(32:16):
provides their own work, but wedo volunteer a lot and maintain
a lot of the trails.
They are and they're not justmountain bike trails, like I
said earlier, they're multi-use,so our work also benefits other
user groups yeah and the forestservice likes that and they see
that yeah and they know that,like I said, the lemon drop is

(32:38):
literally only one way down andeverything is an out and back
more or less.
There are no real like loops andthey need more trails to kind
of disperse people, becausetucson, or mount lemon, is a sky
island.

Josh (32:51):
Everyone in tucson loves to go up there in the summertime
so maybe, uh, just explain thesky island, since you use that
vernacular, maybe explain thatto our international listeners.
Like what, like arizona?
Like what is the concept of asky island?

so sky island.

Josh (33:05):
I mean, this is not like a formal definition just Just
what's Nick's opinion of what askydiver is so.

I mean you get , it's a 9,000-foot mountain
Like in our backyard.
You get pretty much everyecosystem from Mexico to Canada
in an hour drive up there.
And at the top is, in thesummertime, tucson's a hundred

(33:31):
110 degrees in July.
You're up there and it's 85 andum it's a.
It's a great way to escape theheat, but there's also a limited
amount of space up there thatum people can recreate.

Josh (33:47):
So we have these like so.
If you're driving throughArizona, it's pretty much like
flat desert everywhere.

Dane (34:12):
No-transcript one yeah, any any of these mountains
around here that have pine treeson the top.

Yeah, yeah so what it is is an ecosystem at the top
of the mountain that'scompletely separate from a
similar ecosystem you know inanother mountain.
So if you think of like thedesert being like, you know an
ocean, so to speak, and we havethese little islands of
different ecosystems on top ofthese, yeah it's a super cool
resource that we have and it'slike totally different.

Josh (34:40):
If you're down on the floor in tucson, it's like you
said it's 110 degrees, 105degrees.
You go up, it's 75 or 80degrees up on top of the
mountain, maybe a little warmerthan that yeah, I mean, the
southernmost ski resort in theUnited States is at the top of
Mount lemon.
Yeah, Did you?
Did everyone know that we havea ski resort in Tucson Arizona
the most, I think, the mostSouthern resort?

in the United States.

Dane (34:58):
Yeah, did I just repeat what he just said Totally.
I guess I've had enough whiskey, stole my thunder Nice.

Josh (35:06):
Got that buzz going like reinforcing your thunder.
Okay, I am the reinforcement,you're the lightning to my
thunder if I had a dollaraccentuating, if I had a dollar
for every time someone told methat that's awesome but yeah,
I've uh ridden more times in thesnow in southern arizona than I
have anywhere else that's crazyyeah, I never thought that I'd.

You know, move to practically mexico and, you know
, be riding in the snow and not,like you know, just a little
bit of snow, but, like you know,be riding in the snow and not,
like you know, just a little bitof snow, but, like you know,
hub deep.

Dane (35:34):
You just said that and, like my, my brain just blew up
because I I totally agree withyou.
I think that's exactly right.
I'm not kidding, like I've donea CDO in the snow, where you do
half of it in the snow and andI don't think I've ridden in the
snow anywhere else- I made snowangels at the top of.
Cdo one time yeah.

And I mind you, it's 106 degrees out today.

Dane (35:55):
Yeah, yeah, exactly yeah.

Josh (35:56):
There's no snow on the mountain today.

Dane (35:58):
No For the record.

Josh (35:59):
Yeah, yeah, all right, um, so, like, we've got this thing
about every.
So if we don't maintain thetrails, if we don't contribute
to advocacy, there won't betrails.
And as a new kind of likezealot for trail advocacy,

(36:20):
that's me.
I've been a mountain biker forway longer than both you guys.
I've been riding bikes for 25years and Dane's been riding
bikes for 50 years 75.

Dane (36:30):
I actually invented the bicycle.

Josh (36:32):
But I never really.
I mean, besides, like thesocial trail work I did, I've
never really done any real trailadvocacy and I've realized that
like that's a bad thing.
And so here's my question Doyou agree that all mountain
bikers should contribute totrail advocacy and maintenance
efforts, and how do they getinvolved?
And to those in the Tucson area, how can they help with TORCA?

Uh, 100%.
Um, yeah, I think everymountain biker owes it to their
local advocacy group or trailmaintenance group, to, you know,
just contribute a little bit.
You know, any little bit countsum, whether that's being a
member or going to volunteertrail days or um, or going to
their, you know, pint nights ormovie premieres or whatever it

(37:18):
is you know, just donating cashright.
If you can't, if you don't havethe time we'll take your money.
Yeah, if you're a member, youknow that's $30 for a whole year
, right, at least for a Torca,and you know, gives you um, you
um maybe some credit, some bikeshops, um, it also gives you a
nice little you know pat on theback to make you feel good about
yourself, um, but yeah, we likemoney too, just like anybody

(37:40):
else, and those I mean.
We're like 100 501 c3non-profit volunteer group.
So, um, all of the money fromum members and anything that we
raise goes right into tools,fuel for the trucks and the weed
whackers, and it's not goinginto our pockets or going into

(38:03):
our bikes or anything like that.
It's going straight back to thetrail.

Josh (38:07):
You guys don't have any paid members of your
organization.
Not at all.

Paid employees .
You mean, yeah, correct, thatis correct.
Yeah, with that onesubcontractor, we're working
something out where they'd getpossibly a percentage of
whatever fundraising they bringin but that's still a work in
progress.
I think that's a good deal,though you bring in money, you
get a percentage of it.
If he brings in nothing, hedoesn't get anything.
That's like incentive based.

(38:39):
Oh, totally yeah, I love it.
Um, I'd like to tack on onething to to what matt said.
Um, I think I know the foundingmembers of this organization
have um socialized and the oneday pledge, which is every
mountain biker, or everymountain biker in Tucson, should
give one day um, one trail daya year is kind of like the bare
minimum.

(38:59):
Just one day Um that that thatis the bare minimum and that
would go a long way, based onhow many people Jesus Christ
people.

Josh (39:06):
If you can't give one day, what the hell are you doing?

Dane (39:09):
Well, I, I, we just came back from sunrise and I was I
think I maybe told you this I, Iwent through this uh project
trail called project, and onthat trail is a fallen log that
we built up.
Uh, and I was there, I was the,I was volunteering and I built
that jump over the log.

Josh (39:27):
Yeah.

Dane (39:28):
It's still there today and I did that easily 10 years ago
easily, and, uh, I still takegreat pride in that.

Josh (39:34):
Yeah, there's something rewarding, like I was telling
these guys, I got like thismassive like infection or
whatever you call it, fromreaction from poison Ivy doing
the done at Mount Graham and I'm, I'm super stoked to go ride
Arcadia and ride the littlestupid hundred, stupid hundred,
you know, a hundred yard like ora hundred meter um section that

(39:55):
we worked that day and liketake, I'm sure it'll be over by
the time we get back there, butlike take pride in, like the way
it looks today versus the wayit looked when we started, and
I'll feel good about that.
And every single mountain bikeryou know every single one of
the dozens of mountain bikersthat go through that section
we'll enjoy that a little bitmore because the work that I did
.

Dane (40:10):
Yeah, we talked about that with Dave Schlegel and and
that's one of the probably thebiggest gratifications you can
get when you volunteer is to tobe able to ride that trail and
go.
Yeah, I kind of helped withthat berm or I helped with that,
you know, that armoring of thatcorner or that drop or
something, or you help brushthat stuff out or you gave money
or you know, or or?

Josh (40:30):
whatever, whatever, whatever it is that you
volunteer, so.
So the question you guys didn'tanswer, uh, was specific to
Torca, like for our locallisteners, like how can they
help out with Torca?

I mean, you want me to take this.

I mean the best way um is, you know, either through
funds or coming out andvolunteering um right now.
Now, volunteering, gettingpeople out on the trail, is
probably what we need most.
A lot of what we have aroundhere is even though we're in a
desert, the plants grow reallyquickly.
During the monsoon season, forsure, right yeah and then also

(41:05):
in the springtime, in thefalltime, pretty much any time
that there's not either like 106degrees out or it's not under
snow, and so just everythinggrows back super quickly as soon
as water hits it.
Um and um, you know, brushingback, um, you know the plants is
, you know, an ongoing battle.
Um, it's something that justalways happens.

(41:27):
It's a necessity around here.

Dane (41:29):
I think you can get one of those like helicopters, that
kind of hangs the things and wejust fly down the trail.
So that's the second that youattach to your bike.
And just, oh, I saw one ofthose.
So if we had the budget, yeah,right, there you go so you guys
use some terms that ourlisteners might know.

Josh (41:44):
So there's kind of like brushwork and treadwork, so can
you kind of help us explain thedifference between the two?

yeah, so brushwork.
Brushwork is basically brushingback, or, you know, cutting
back the things on the side ofthe trail that are growing into
it, and so we like to do what wecall a five-year trim, and the
idea is that we want to be ableto brush it back enough so we
don't come back here in the nextfive years.
And so usually that's about,you know, four feet off the
trail.
Yeah, the trail corridor um,for any trail um, is about three

(42:13):
feet on either side of uh, sixfeet total.

Josh (42:16):
So if you like, you know, if you're a tall dude, you put
your arms out.
That's basically your, yourwingspan.

Yeah, if we get your standard, you know, shovel
or McLeod or something like thatstick it out to the side of the
trail and that's about how faruh, you want it to be brushed
back um granted, you knowthere's a lot of spots, uh,
where there's rocks, and youknow cliffs and you can't brush
back, so you do what you can do,um, and yeah, that's the idea,

(42:42):
so that's brushing tread.
work is uh, when you're uhreinforcing or maintaining the
actual tread of the trail, soactually the part that you're
riding on Around.
Here we get a lot of watercoming down off the mountain at
one time.
It's not like in the PacificNorthwest, where it's just
constantly raining or drizzlingor cloudy.

(43:04):
We're talking about an hour andyou get a torrential rain and
then it gets sunny again, and soit's a massive amount of water
in a very short amount of timeand which washes away a lot of
the actual you know little tinyrocks which make up the the
trail, and so what we like to dois we like to go in and take
the larger rocks, put them inthe trail, bury them, and so it

(43:26):
actually maintains it and keepsit in the same place.
And there's also a handful oftrails I'd say even less than
that that get heavily used BugSprings, prison Camp, the
Arizona Trail.
In certain sections they getused by pretty much like 90% of

(43:49):
the mountain bikers here inTucson, and that's a couple
thousand people, couple thousandpeople, and you're doing a
couple of runs a day, or youknow.
So that's, it's a lot of use.
Yeah, it's a lot of multipliersthere, um, and so, yeah, a lot
of use there.
Fortunately, these rocks do apretty good job at, uh, you know
, reinforcing those trails.
Um, we just need to go throughand do that to pretty much all
of them.

Dane (44:07):
So I got a question when you guys are presenting plans
and stuff, how much latitude doyou have to do features and
things like that?
Like, does the forest servicelike?

Josh (44:17):
what is the feature?

Dane (44:18):
Like a, you know, maybe take it over a rock and have a
little drop, or, you know, havean obstacle.
That requires a little moreskill, not just make it a like a
kind of a highway you know, andlike so is there.

Josh (44:32):
So that fun shit on the trail.

Dane (44:33):
Yeah, like I mean, you know so.
I take a lot of people on tripsand I take a lot of beginners
and I'm uh, you know I have tobe aware of what they're capable
of, because I have a bad ideaof what I'm capable of he thinks
he's like Josh, you can do thistrail, no problem, and I go
down it and I'm like shit, mypants halfway down.
God damn it, Dean.
And so so I get it that you gotto make the trail for everybody.

(44:55):
But does the?
Do they give you any kind oflatitude to be like hey, you
know you make it around thisrock, but you can have a little
you can, you can put a littlekicker and then they somebody
who wants to can go over therock, you know.
Do they let you do that, or dothey really restrict you?

So that actually kind of goes back to your
question a couple questions agoabout talking to different
people in different areas aboutwhat they can do.
Every Forest Service districtis kind of be holding to who's

(45:31):
in charge, okay, um so if you goto depends on the person in
that role at that time liketheir perspective is.
So if you go to, you know I'vebeen to Jackson hole and there's
some massive doubles on forestservice land, um, you know, if
you go to the Pacific Northwest,you know it's a similar, you
know thing a lot for listenersthat don't know, like, what's um

(45:53):
, what's a double?

Josh (45:53):
what do you mean by that?

oh, a double is a um, it's a grade reversal to
speak in code reversal it's it'sa sweet jump.

Dane (46:05):
Yeah, it's a jump and it does double usually mean that
there's a gap yeah, so.

So a double means that there's a lip and then a
landing, so a jump and a landingwith a gap in between.
Yeah.

Dane (46:16):
And then a table would be the same jump, just with filled
in Correct.

Yeah, okay, yeah.

Dane (46:20):
Which I can do.

But doubles, I can't.
You can, yes, you can.

Dane (46:23):
I can if I close my eyes.
Just imagine that's so.
That's what I have to dosometimes.
Yeah, we were talking aboutNoble Canyon and San Diego and
in Noble, you know, you ridethrough.
As you're getting into Noble,you're going through the forest
and as you're riding the trailit snakes around all these
obstacles and as it snakesaround a stump there's a little

(46:45):
rock that goes up the stump andthen the log, and then they've
cut the top of the log andserrated it so that you can have
traction and so you can goaround it as a beginner, but
then you can also do a log rideand that's the forest land.
So somebody there was like, hey, that's okay, and I feel like
I'm just like is it so?

(47:06):
It's really dependent on theperson that you're talking about
whether or not they'll evenallow for something like that,
yeah, and there's also a300-page document about trail
features that you can have Canyou get that on audiobook If you
want to go to sleep reallyquickly.

Definitely not allowed.
Wood bridges are not allowed.

Dane (47:24):
Wood bridges are not allowed On forest service land
Really On this forest.
So is that document specific tothis area?

Well then there's also different environmental
effects that you know.
I don't know how you guys dothis.

Dane (47:36):
It's amazing.
You guys are pretty great, sopatient and amazing.
So to also so there's also a.

You know, there's things that you can do, like in
slope corners, um, and that's umlike berms yeah, exactly, yeah.

Josh (47:50):
Yeah, your words, not mine In slope corners, yep.

Great reversals are .
You know where the trail goesdown and then up suddenly?

Yeah.

Josh (47:59):
You know, um, or vice versa, yeah, so that all those
things that make it fun to ridea mountain bike, yeah, and so
you've got to really justplacate to whoever's in charge
and what, what their idea ofmountain biking needs to be
Right.

And then also the idea of the trail too.
Yeah, like bug senior, when wewere scouting that out, we were,
you know, scouting out a blackdiamond or you know a dark blue
trail, yeah, and we are, youknow, looking at features that
could make it that way.
Yeah, and that was super coolfor a service.
Yeah, um, they were totallybehind that.

(48:33):
Um, we just ran into someobstacles that were just
unrideable for a considerableamount of money.

Dane (48:39):
Yeah.

Yeah, um, and so, like some of the new trails that
we're going to be um, workingon on phase two, um, the fire
line trail, and then, uh,crystal springs trail or silver
springs trail, um, you know,those gonna be bike optimized,
with bike optimized features onthem yeah um, and they're also
designed, you know, for everyoneto ride um.

(49:00):
So there are going to be somego-arounds and there's hopefully
going to be some pretty sickfeatures there yeah, we did um
sunrise and they have a beginnerlike green trail called uh yage
which is not a fucking beginnertrail, it's a total, just for
the record, like I don't know.

Josh (49:14):
It is not, it is a blue.

Dane (49:16):
It is a blue trail at every other bike park I've been
to it is.
It's awesome but it's not agreen trail but they did uh just
redo it and they put you know,little shout out to the tanto
gravity riders yeah, like chrisand james, they're awesome.
um, so they put little kickersinto the trail so you can go
around and they're on the sideof the trail and sometimes you
don't even.

(49:36):
I don't even know if they weremeant to be there, but I just
made them kickers.
But they put some on flags youknow, and so they actually built
some of them.
Some of them, you kind of justhit a little stump and catch
some air.

Josh (49:57):
But it was cool because then my nine-year-old is riding
the same trail and he doesn'thit those you know, and he's
having a great time.
So this is the same kid thatalmost went down a cliff.

Dane (50:01):
He did almost die.

Josh (50:02):
Yeah, he like yeah he ended up in down the hill.
He had one one arm around thetree one arm around another tree
with or one leg around theother tree, his one other leg
holding his bike holding hisbike a cliff, but is the bike?

okay, the bike is fine.

Josh (50:14):
It was a pivot switchblade , so custom so custom, yeah,
custom.

Dane (50:18):
AF, but anyway.
So yeah.
So like you guys are workingwith the Forest Service
constantly, would you say thatthat's probably the biggest
thing that you do?
I mean, it sounds like that'sthe biggest thing you guys do is
coordinate with them and tryand get them to let you do more.
Does that make sense?

Yeah, exactly, that's the advocacy part of the
whole TORCA so the A at the end.
We're trying to get more trailsand more access to trails that's
for all users also, not justthe super shreddy, bro, dudes or

(50:58):
girls, bro, people, bro, peoplethere we go, but also everyone.
And so that's why we wanted toget some more user-friendly
trails like Upper in theMountain, because right now if
you are in Tucson and you're inthe summertime and you want to
go ride, you know that's notlike 6am or you know 4am, I mean

(51:22):
it's 6am, it's already 80, 90degrees, but yeah we have eight
months of awesome, four monthsof awful.

Josh (51:29):
Let's not like cloud our listeners with the four months
of awful.
We're at the tail end of itright now.

Dane (51:34):
We're talking about Mount Lemmon and Sky Island.
We have, you know, 365 days ofawesome.
We really do.
We have that opportunity, sothat's awesome.

So now we're trying to get some awesome or mellow
trails or user-friendly trailshigher up on the mountain so you
can ride in the summertime andnot have to send it or go down
some nasty Rocky cliffs.

Dane (51:53):
Yeah, cause Mount lemon is a pretty vertical mountain.

Josh (51:55):
There's not a lot for all of us Intermediate riders,
myself included.
I'd like to thank you for that,but then it's also, you know, a
balancing act.

You know cause there are a lot of cool shreddy
people here in Tucson and that'sreally what Tucson is known for
is the hard technical Um, andyou can ride that, you know, in
the winter time, yeah.

Josh (52:14):
Well, that's what the Tucson Mount lemon riders are
known for.
We have hundreds and hundredsof miles of non-technical shit
in Tucson, yeah.

Yeah, it's amazing.

Josh (52:23):
I know that cause I've been riding it for 25 years.

Yeah, so trying to you know work with, uh, people
who do want, you know, thosehardcore trails, and with people
who do want those hardcoretrails and those people who do
want the more green or lightblue trails.
It's a fun balancing act andpeople get angry.
And I like to say if you don'tlike something or if you have
something to say, come out to atrail day or come to a board

(52:49):
meeting.
All of our board meetings areopen to everyone.
They're on our website.
We advertise them.

Josh (52:55):
T-O-R-C-A dot org.

Correct.
Yeah, and we'd love to heardifferent people's points of
views, because right now, likeNick said, there's only five of
us and we're trying to keep thisthing together.
Yeah, and we got some goodheadway, we got some good
opportunities in front of us,but we just need more people and
more voices.
Yeah, yeah.

Josh (53:16):
All right, guys.
So I've been.
So you know we have a podcasthere and you know I'm an avid
podcast listener.
That's what I do like in myspare time or whatever, and I've
been listening to the TrailEffect podcast.
It's put out by Josh Bloom.
Matt's shaking his head If youguys haven't listened to it, and
to our listeners if you haven'tlistened to it.
It's a great podcast and we'reall super stoked about New Trail

(53:40):
.
We're all super stoked aboutNew Trail.
But recently Josh has beenfocusing the other Josh like
Josh Bloom, I'm glad youclarified.

Dane (53:48):
Thank you for clarifying Because I was confused.
Yeah, you were confused.
I'm glad you clarified.
Thank you for clarifyingBecause I was confused.

Yeah you were confused.

Josh (53:52):
I wasn't talking about myself in the first person, but
Josh has been talking a lotabout the value of maintaining
what you have, so I'd love toget maybe we can start with Nick
, I'd love to get yourperspectives on what's the value
, because you guys do a lot ofwork, not just on creating new
trails, but maintaining what wehave.
What's the value, and whyshould we all be just as

(54:13):
interested in maintaining whatwe have versus creating
something new?

I feel like maintaining what we have has
been kind of what we've beendoing for as long as I've really
been in Torca.
We have definitely had a reallybig push for scouting that for
phase two um over the last yearor so um to get new trails.
But the current trails, likeMatt said earlier, they some of

(54:43):
the popular ones get thousandsof users in a given month
depending on the season.
And, like Dane, you said thatreally tucson doesn't have an
off season for riding.
No, it's just kind of where youride and what time you ride
what the weather's like when youride.

(55:04):
So um, but maintaining what wehave because, uh, because of all
those users and the rainfallthat Matt mentioned, there can
be quite a bit of erosion, andwhat I like to say erosion is
not a trail feature.

(55:24):
A lot of people on Mount Lemmonlike to think that erosion
eroded trails.

You're neutering the trail.

Josh (55:31):
Yeah that's so tech sanitizing yeah and I'm just
like.

We're here to make it sustainable.
It's, it's in our missionstatement yeah, um, we need to
maintain them so that we stillum, so that they're still
rideable and that they don't um,they don't go away and they
still maintain the samecharacter.
A lot of people don't realizethat trails are basically living

(55:59):
organisms.
There are a lot of effects ofnot only people, but weather
effects of wind, rain, et cetera, that change the way they are
and trails from.
I haven't been riding here foronly 10 years.

(56:19):
I know, josh, you've beenriding here for a lot longer,
but trails, year after yearseason or riding season after
different part of riding seasondo look different.
And we need to maintain and makesure that they are still
rideable in the spirit that theyshould be um, so that everyone

(56:39):
can enjoy them yeah, that'sgreat.

Dane (56:43):
I'm constantly amazed on how much you guys do and have to
deal with, you know, like,aside from all of that trying to
get organized, trying to dealwith the forest service and and
and then all the other usergroups, then trying to maintain
trails, while you're trying tohave this forward looking idea
of building trails and creatingmore and then keeping an open
mind about user groups and so,like, for instance, matt

(57:06):
bringing up you know, you knowwe need some green trails up
there, which he's absolutelyright.
It's very difficult to rideMount lemon for a beginner and,
uh, and I, as I have my kids,they're opening my eyes because
I, I do ride a lot of trail andI am not scared about technical
and I can do it and it doesn'tseem like that big a deal.
But then I take my kids and Irealized my, my son's walking

(57:34):
down like a one foot route,route, route, you know.
And I realized, man, you know,people need to be able to get
into the sport and they needthat uh, jumping off point, they
, you can't just take themstraight into both springs.
You know they need some.

Josh (57:42):
They need some some yeah, I mean, I've spent 23 years
riding cross country yeah andthen my wife, who's like a
downhill rider.
She's like you know, stop beinga wussy, let's go get up on the
mountain.
Then I partnered with dane,who's a downhill racer, and he's
like josh, come on, we gottaget you.

Dane (57:58):
I've never ridden bug springs yeah, oh, yeah, oh,
we're gonna get you out there,yeah so, like I can handle black
trails, can I handle bugsprings.
Oh, totally, yeah, totally yeah, I always tell people with bugs
like whatever you don't want todo, just walk.
Yeah, I'm cool with that andand like being your own in your
own self.

Josh (58:18):
But I'm going out next week to ride bugs I think it's
like, I think it's bad that Ihave a podcast, a mountain bike
podcast in tucson.

I've never written let's, let's do it at
night, please like, bring it outI'm not gonna do it at night.

Come on, let's do it at night.
Jesus christ, that's the besttime to do it at night.
Come on, let's do it at night.

Josh (58:29):
Jesus.

Dane (58:30):
Christ, that's the best time to do it, it is.
It's awesome at night.

Josh (58:32):
You don't see all the exposure.
Yeah, you guys can ask Tara.
I hired her to train me onprison camp.
She's like oh Jesus, well, yougot the best of the best.
The other, tara and Jason she'sgreat.
I mean, I learned a ton fromthose guys.
You like shout out to the womenin our, in our field, man, like

(58:53):
we need to get a bigger voiceand that's one of the things
with this podcast that we'rewe're trying to do is give a
bigger voice to the women, forsure, um, all right, so, um, um,
I think the next question isyours, man.
Well, I'm going to skip down.
Wait, wait, wait.
I'm going to skip down, skipdown.

Dane (59:07):
So let's go away from the forest and the trails, yeah, and
let's kind of learn about theseguys a little bit more.
What would you say from each ofyou, nick and Matt?
What is your if you could pickyour favorite trail just
anywhere, not just in Tucson,like anywhere.
Do you have a favorite trailanywhere?

(59:29):
Do you have a favorite?

trail, like one that you think about, that
you're like I gotta get backthere, I do, okay, go, nick.
I like windsor and santa fe alot.
Oh shit, we just rode that highfive dude.
We just rode that like twoweeks ago.
That trail is sick.
That trail is so much funthat's exactly.

Josh (59:42):
Thank you for taking me to that.
Yeah, although the commutingshit sucked like driving up
driving back up.

driving back up, we didn't take the bus.
They can take six bikes, Ithink, and the ride back into
town isn't too bad.

Dane (59:56):
We had like ten people.
That's the problem that wealways run into the shuttle's
not that bad.
It's pay-to-play, in my opinion, on almost everything, unless
you have a chairlift.

Josh (01:00:08):
A shuttle is an easier pay to play than riding up the
mountain, and you and I paid twohours of driving time to
shuttle all those 10 people,although next time While they
sat down at the bar and drankNext time.

Dane (01:00:15):
I've decided next time I ride that trail, when we go back
to get the cars, I'm takinganother person to drive.

Josh (01:00:20):
And I'm going to do the trail On the way down and beat
the car down.

Dane (01:00:24):
Yeah, you probably would beat the car, pretty sure we.

Josh (01:00:27):
I just bought a seven pack belt.
I just bought your my rackvelocirax.

Matt Hrabko (01:00:31):
Oh yeah, yeah, it'll be here, tomorrow.

Josh (01:00:33):
Yeah, so you guys are gonna see lacy helping you guys.
Shuttle up on mount lemon withthe uh with the seven velocirax.

Dane (01:00:40):
I don't like that they're not in bike shops.

Josh (01:00:42):
I don't like I know this is here we go consumer direct.

Dane (01:00:45):
Here comes the bike shop however, I am very all right so
your fame, your your favoritetrails.

Josh (01:00:51):
Windsor, which we just rode like two weeks ago, and I
echo that trail, was awesome.
I don't know if it's myfavorite trail, but I really,
really enjoyed that trailthere's a.

Nick Giovannucci (01:01:00):
It's hard to choose one, but it's just the
convenience of the free shuttleand just you can open.
It's not too steep that youhave to ride your brakes, you
can just open it up.
So for our listeners.

Josh (01:01:11):
This is just outside of Santa Fe in New Mexico, and if
you're going up to the AngelFire Bike Park, which I contend
is the best bike park in theUnited States, For now.
For now.

I think Sunrise is going to whoop them
at some point.

Josh (01:01:26):
Sunrise is taking them on.
We can talk about that.
We have another podcast comingout about sunrise and what
they're doing up there.
But angel fire is amazing.
But if you're on your way toangel fire like, that's a great
place to stop and break up theride.

Dane (01:01:37):
I'm with you on.
Windsor I forgot the name ofthat that a little restaurant,
it's great.

Josh (01:01:42):
Oh yeah, at the base there .

Dane (01:01:43):
Tuskegee or Tuskegee.

Josh (01:01:46):
Yeah, I don't know the village of Tuskegee.
Yeah, whatever, At the base youcan find it.
Matt, what's your favoritetrail?

in the world.
That's a tough one, you cangive us a couple if you can.
I was going to say, yeah,there's so many different trails
with so many differentcharacteristics.
One of my favorite trails I'dsay that I've always said is
Braille Trail.
Out in Santa Cruz, okay.

(01:02:11):
Up in the SoCal DemonstrationForest Okay.
It's beautiful, long, rooty,has some awesome cool little
hits through the redwood treesduff, it's amazing.

Dane (01:02:22):
So we're going there next summer.
Yeah, definitely do that.

Yeah, that's one of the legal trails they have in
Santa Cruz, which is pretty cool, but more so, I'd say, like the
Bugs Prison Millie Lab.
Yeah, I think that one's likeBug Springs Prison Camp.

Josh (01:02:39):
Yes, so that's like the lower three mountains, the lower
three trails we have here onour mountain.

Dane (01:02:43):
What do we call that?

Josh (01:02:51):
Because it's part of the lemon drop, we call it the
meringue, we call it the bugsarosa bugs arosa.

Yeah, that's the millicross as my acronym.

Yeah, but it has so much variety.
I mean you're starting off,like you know, on some granite
slabs, you go into a pine forest, then you go back onto some
like high desert, then you godown into the lower desert with
the saguaros and the pricklypears and all the gila monsters
and rattlesnakes and stuff myred racer.

Dane (01:03:13):
We were listening to the animal episode and the red racer
that was chasing or runningnext to me yeah, that was on
millagrosa, really, so yeah yeah, but it's, I'd say, um,
millagrosa is, uh, one of thehardest trails that we have on
mount lemon.

Um, and it's actually is one of the hardest
trails that we have on MountLemmon and it's actually one of
the success stories we have fromthis master's trail plan.
It was a part of phase one toget adopted, so that one is
actually a wildcat trail that iscurrently adopted by the Forest
Service.

Dane (01:03:41):
It's been there a long time, oh, forever.
Well, I don't want to get backinto the Forest Service stuff,
because we really do want toknow about you guys too.
I mean, we loved hearing aboutTorca, but we want to know about
you guys, so I'll skip myquestion, which was more trail
stuff.

Josh (01:03:57):
Yeah, more trail stuff, okay so a carryover for the
trail discussion.
So you talked about yourfavorite being Windsor.
You said Braille Trail in in.

Dane (01:04:06):
Santa Cruz in.

Josh (01:04:06):
Santa Cruz and then the uh .

Bugs Rosa.

Josh (01:04:10):
So that's bug Springs prison camp and Mila Grossa in
Tucson on the Santa Catalina isup on Mount lemon.
What is the hardest trailyou've ever ridden?
Start with you, Nick.
What's the hardest trail?
Like the one that just kickedyour ass and you're like, no,
I'm not doing that again I meanpossibly millie gross in the

(01:04:31):
case.

I never wrote it.
When I I my one friend I I kindof went to high school with,
moved here and um, I was likeyeah, let's try it, and uh, I
did, took him down millie wekind of took each other down.
We were I'd been down it, andthat was actually the first time
I ran into Torca.
They were working on it in, Ithink late 2017.

(01:04:51):
It looked at you guys like whatthe hell are?

Josh (01:04:55):
you guys doing here.

And we tried to.
Well, we can't pedal up theroad, we're weak.
I didn't even have a bike rack,I think.
So we had to take my friend hecould fit two bikes in his to
molino in his car and then atthe end we had to pedal back up
and that was so hard.
Oh yeah, um, and we're goingdown and we're going down the

(01:05:17):
the act portion and that thatpart right after the saddle is
technically intermediate, but,um, it's very steep and there's
a blood rock there with a nicered um nice blood that has been
sacrificed there that's not myblood, that would have been on
the, the waterfall in theaggressive but um that was years

(01:05:40):
after.
But doing that trail was likewhat are we almost there?
Are we on the hard part yet?
And then we eventually did itand it was great, but it was a
bunch of.
It was a little bit of a hikewith a bike, um kind of thing,
but now, I mean, pretty much thewhole thing is rideable after
some practice and stuff.

Josh (01:05:59):
Practice helps all right.

So next is millie gross.
So matt.
What do you say?
What's the?

Josh (01:06:03):
hardest trail you've ever attempted to ride.
Oh, I I don't know, have youridden Portal?
You guys ridden Portal?
Haven't ridden Portal yet?
Oh, yes, I have ridden Portal.
That was awesome, and MilaGrossa is harder than Portal.

Okay, so I actually Can I give a second
answer?
Sure, yes, yes, yes.
When I go to Sedona, when I goto Moab, I am an Energizer bunny
.
I'm never there long enough toget all my riding out, so I'm
just like I'm going to ridethree or four times a day.

Josh (01:06:35):
Let's do this kind of thing.

And so last time I went to Moab with my wife
, we brought two bikes each, across-country bike and enduro
bike.
We did the Navajo Rocks like across-country loop up there,
like 10, 15 miles, and I broughtmy enduro bike in the car.
Um, I told my wife, just drawme off, it's 100, 105 out or so

(01:07:02):
in early september.
I'm sure I'll run into peopledown on mag seven.
Um, it'll be fine, I'm nottaking the poison spider thing,
I'm doing portal, it's gonna begreat.
Um, and I was like okay, cool,and I was like this shouldn't be
that hard, I think it's not.
Like it's not that muchclimbing and the whole the first
section of of mag sevens ispretty easy.

(01:07:24):
And then you get to the thegold bar climb up there and I
was like oh, this sucks like I'mdying right now like I'm already
like it's super steep and itwas very hot and the heat just
radiating off the rocks.
I mean, yeah, I've ridden inthe arizona summer, but after
doing another ride and there'snobody out there, there's one

(01:07:45):
jeep.
There's just like, oh wow,you're crazy what the hell are
you doing out here?

Josh (01:07:50):
what are you doing out here?

and I'm just like uh, am I at portal yet?
Am I at portal yet?
And I was like okay, here'sokay, I'm finally at portal.
It's like, okay, I'm takingthis real easy and all the get
off your bike parts.
I obviously got off my bike,but and then you kind of come
around the corner and hit thatdrop and go into the real techie
stuff I was like, oh, I am like, so my legs are like dying, my

(01:08:12):
arms are dying, I need to bereal careful.
I went, I I definitely likewalked some parts and if I was a
little bit more rested I couldhave ridden it, but I was just
like, oh, I'm so, I'm just soexhausted, and then I was like
calorie deficit, right there andjust like pounded like a two
foot longs at like Subway afterand I was like I needed that.

(01:08:33):
I burned all those.
So you're saying million portal, yeah, portal.
I was like, oh, this is superexposed and like very crazy.

Dane (01:08:42):
So I was in the shop today and one of the guys that went
with me to Moab on our trip lastguy who I haven't asked, I told
him I said, hey, I've askedeverybody who went on that ride
that road portal with us.
And during the ride afterwards,when we're at the bottom, a guy
had like a bucket full of icecold washcloths yeah.

(01:09:03):
And we put them all on ourselvesand stuff.
At that point nobody, everybodywas mad at me, me and they're
like we're never coming backhere again.
And uh, and I've I've said thisstory and I've asked a few
since then and he was the lastone today.
Every, he was the only one whowas like I've done it, I don't
need to do it again is what hesaid Uh, that was Bert, and

(01:09:23):
shout out to out to burt.
But uh, everybody else was likeyeah, I'll do it.

Josh (01:09:27):
So like I want to do it, they want to ride it again after
a certain amount of time.
I think I just forgot how threeit's type three fun, yeah,
right, like you have fun, youdon't have fun, then yeah, but
it's cool to tell the storiesafterwards yeah, big time so
matt, what?
What's your?
What's the hardest drill youever attempted to ride?

um, you, the only one that really comes to mind.
I mean, I'm sure there'ssomething back there where I was
.
You know, I've done it once andI don't need to do it again.
Yeah, but the one that comes tomind is Incinerator, up here on
Mount Lemmon.
Oh yeah, it's not a long trail,but I like to think of it more
of like a puzzle than a trail,but I like to think of it more

(01:10:07):
of like a puzzle than a trail,cause there's some, there's some
cool rock features going downand going up that you really
just need to like figure it out.
Yeah, you know there's noobvious way, cause a lot of it
is just solid granite andthere's.
You know, you kind of see atrail marker in the future but
it's like, well, how do I getfrom here to there?
Oh, up this thing, fuck.

(01:10:29):
And so it's still one that,like you know, I can clean it
some days and then, like somedays, it'll just come back and
bite you.

Josh (01:10:37):
I either see a souvenir, I have my arm, you guys have
ridden in a lot of places in theworld right.

I mean, I know Nick you just got back from from
from alaska.

Josh (01:10:45):
I did not ride there you guys have ridden in a lot of
places in the world and it'samazing that the hardest trail
like you guys both picked atrail on mount lemon here in
tucson as the hardest trailyou've ever ridden.
Yeah, that's that should saysomething.
That definitely should saysomething.
What are?

you guys riding these days nick.

Josh (01:11:05):
What are Like?
What's your stable?
Look like so.

I currently have four bikes.
Technically, I'm trying to sellone.
My newest bike is an Orbea Oiz,my cross-country sub-22-pound
race bike that I hope to podiumat Tour of the White Mountains.
I did it last year for firsttime, racing it only in the 35.

(01:11:31):
Good luck, man.
Hopefully I can do it in the 50.
That's awesome that hike a bikeis kind of a pain in the ass.

Josh (01:11:37):
Yeah, shout out to Epic Rides man.
They put on a great event,Todd's great.

Yeah, so that's my newest bike.
I also have a Rocky mountainaltitude.
Was able to go to the Rockymountain headquarters when I was
in Vancouver up there and kindof impromptu uh private tour, um
of their, of their all theirfatigue testing, um back room of
uh testing stuff road trip.

Josh (01:12:03):
It was super cool.

Um, and then I have.
What I wrote here today is, uh,a santa cruz skitch, which is
my e-commuter that I try to rideto work every now and then it
is yeah, and for the record,like like, nick rode here today,
I did.

Josh (01:12:17):
Yes, matt drove a big-ass van, but nick rode 10 miles each
way.

I had the assist on but, it's not too bad.
Um, and then the, my oldcross-country bike is still kind
of in, uh, the selling stablefor it's a yeti sp100 that, uh,
I've, I've raced and rode for.
I bought it right at the startof covid.
So, um, it's been been aroundfor four years and I've put, I

(01:12:44):
think, 5 000 miles on it andit's time to go to a better home
.
Still in great shape and has acustom wrap on it that nick's
trying to sell his bike on thepodcast contact nick I'll put a
link to his facebook marketplacein the in the show notes here,
if he's.

Josh (01:13:02):
If he wants, I've got a altitude power play uh, that's
my e-bike, and uh that's.
That's the only e-bike I have,and, uh, it's a great bike, do
you?
Do you have a, a coil or a airspring on the back?

uh, for the altitude.
Yeah, I started with a dpx2 anduh, could not handle it, so I
have a dhx2.
So yeah, definitely coil on it.

Josh (01:13:23):
Yeah, I've switched to a coil as well.
Oh, it is DVO.
Definitely Matt.
What about?

you.
What do you ride?
These days?
My main steed is a RockyMountain Altitude as well.
Nice, look at that, dude.
Great minds.

Josh (01:13:36):
Great minds, you get an altitude too right.

Dane (01:13:37):
Oh, it's my favorite bike yeah.

It's an of an altitude in this room right now.
That's crazy.
Yeah, um, I have a you know, 38170 up front and a coil in the
rear.
Yeah, dhx2.
Um, yeah, carbon hoops.
Yeah, she's not light, but shetakes a beating and she pedals
well yeah and I've had that rigfor three years now right on,
and it's been to are you sellingthat one?

Josh (01:14:07):
I saw that you were selling something.

I am selling it.
Okay, you know the trailsaround here in Tucson, you know.
I think you got the gistalready that they're a little
tough.

Dane (01:14:15):
Yeah.

And so I'm trying to pass it on to the next owner
before it turns into dust, butit's still you know.
It looks like it's in goodshape, really good shape, like
um, but yeah.

Josh (01:14:28):
What are you going to get next, then?
If you're going to, sellanother Rocky mountain.

I was thinking.
A shorter travel Cause a lot ofthe trails that I ride around
here.

Dane (01:14:37):
The new instinct the new instinct, yeah, instinct, bc,
that's.
That's the money bunny.

Yeah, that's the money, bunny.
Yeah, that's next in the stable.
But we'll see what the funds.

Dane (01:14:48):
So let's see Mine's a 2020 .
What?

year was yours 21.

21 and then Nick 21 as well, I think.

Dane (01:14:54):
I got the oldest one.
I'm actually thinking aboutpainting mine.
That's how much I love it andI'm going to probably keep it.
And for a bike guy who, isself-.

Josh (01:15:03):
You want to get it painted and you want to put shimano on
the side no mountain cobb on theother side, I'll pay for your
paint job don't make me do itand I'll pay for it done I don't
think you know how muchpainting a bike costs you got to
put shimano components on it aswell I'll do that okay I'm not,

(01:15:23):
I'm not scared Right now.
I've got the Dude, dude.
Let's shake hands.
There we go.
It's done, I see it.

Dane (01:15:28):
You know, I have a group, an XTR group, at home.

Josh (01:15:31):
That's fine, I do.
I'm not scared.
I'm okay with XTR.

Dane (01:15:33):
I'm not.

I'm a bicyclist, so I Mountain cog head badge.
That would be pretty coolactually, let's do it.

Josh (01:15:45):
Let's do it All right.
Final question for you guys,because we've been talking for a
while.
Does it feel like we've beentalking for a while?

Yeah, this has been too long, it's been like
four hours.

Dane (01:15:54):
Nick's like this is awful.

Josh (01:15:55):
This is awful.
Get us out of here.

Dane (01:15:56):
Nick's asleep.

Josh (01:16:09):
I don't know if he noticed that, like we said, we're
Switzerland.
Um, we feel like, uh, as, as atrail advocacy, you know, as the
groups of trail advocacies thatwere the the different,
different trail advocacy groupsthat were like better together
than we are apart, like we'restronger together than we are
apart, like everyone, whetherit's equestrian, whether it's
climbersbers, whether it'shikers, um, or friends of the
cantalena or whoever, and thisapplies kind of like everywhere

(01:16:31):
in the country that we're allbetter together than we all
apart.
And so, like I'd be interestedin your thoughts on like what we
can do to help, like try tofind more common ground and like
work more collectively, moretogether on trail advocacy, for
maintenance, for new trails,whatever, um versus like

(01:16:51):
fighting with each other.
What do you guys think aboutthat?

no, the district, uh the the santa
catalina district rangerdefinitely wants us to do that.
He's told us um for the firsttime and, what I can remember,
um, I think in february we had ajoint trail day on prison camp
with, uh the ata arizona trailassociation.

(01:17:17):
Shout out to matt nelson, yeah,matt nelson, um, and all them
up there, um, they, uh, it wasgreat because we were able to
share tools, share insights.
Crew leaders get a lot of workdone.
They gave us free lunch whatyeah?

Dane (01:17:34):
Free lunch is always good, we usually just do snacks.

There is no free lunch.

So that was awesome.
We want to and with othergroups.
Like I said earlier, we want toand with other groups.
Like I said earlier, theCatalina volunteer groups, or
the Catalina district, has 30volunteer groups.
There is a new volunteercoordinator with the Forest

(01:18:00):
Service who I am now also inregular contact with.
I'm kind of talking to a fewdifferent people on the forest
service, depending on what my,what I'm trying to accomplish,
but I have asked for a contactlist for all of the other user
and volunteer groups so that Ican get a hold of them and do
not have to use the forestservice as a middleman that's

(01:18:24):
awesome it's just easier thatway to invite them out to our
stuff.
They can invite us to theirstuff.
But for other mountain bikegroups or anyone, the more
people, the better.
We all have common interests.
We all want more trails.
I think there are very few, ifthere are any, mountain bikers

(01:18:45):
who don't want new trails inthere.

Josh (01:18:47):
I don't know who you are, and we want our existing trails
to be maintained in good shape.
True.

But pooling manpower resources, pooling tool
resources, more heads,different ways to look at things
and sharing just insight oflessons learned on doing big
projects, I think is reallywhere we can get that.

Josh (01:19:11):
So it sounds like you guys are doing it already, Like
you're trying to like drive thislike I'm doing what I can.

There's not a rule book for being president or
a guide, but I'm trying to andwhat I've been working pretty
hard at, or not super hard at.

Dane (01:19:27):
but, like we've said, we have five people but I want to
do things, but I also am workingon delegating them and making
sure everyone does a little bitand we spread the load Spread
the load, no burnout, one thingthat Josh has brought up before
that I think a lot of groupsmiss out on, and I I'm sure

(01:19:47):
you've thought about this, butI'll just say it anyway, because
there may be other people outthere want to do what you're
doing, but you know putting itout there for what you need.
So, like you talked about grantwriting, you know, and like
having a you know a voice to beable to say, hey, we are looking
for somebody who has done thisto help us, you know, and and
asking for that expertise.

(01:20:08):
Or, hey, you know, we have awebsite.
Is there somebody, is there arider who, instead of maybe
doing a trail day, you couldhelp me adjust the website?
I can share this.

Josh (01:20:18):
So, as a corporate strategist, I can't help but
look at an organization and belike all right, dude, we, we got
some work to do there's somethings we can do.
And one of the things I've beenrecommending is let's write out
what are the skills that youneed and expertise that you need
to accomplish your mission, andlet's go find a mountain biker.
That's a lawyer.

Let's go find a mountain biker, that's an
accountant.

Josh (01:20:40):
Let's go find a mountain biker.
that's a graphic designer, let'sgo find a mountain biker that's
got experience in grant writing, let's bring them all onto our
board and like, instead oftrying to go subcontracted, or
like, fumble, like if I tried tocreate a fucking website, it's
a mess, dude, right, like Idon't know how to do that.
But if I talked to my buddy,chris Bonzac, who's a mountain
biker with with you know, rightdown the road, with Bonzac

(01:21:00):
design, he can do it in hisfucking sleep.
Yeah, right, so I get him on,like he can do it in his sleep.
And if I find a lawyer that can, like you know, do all the
lawyery shit that we need to do,so it's like, build your, build
your staff with you know, theskills that you need so that
you're not fumbling through it.
That's like from a as a, from a, you know, as a corporate
strategist, I can't help, butlike, provide that and that was

(01:21:21):
kind of like the guy that's.
That's what I've been like.
When I'm looking at sdmb andhow they're running, I'm like,
all right, do we need to likebring some different expertise
into this?

Dane (01:21:28):
organization I think a lot of volunteer-based
organizations.
Just sometimes they they don't,they don't have a template, you
know and they're just trying tofigure it out and and then
unfortunately, somebody moves on.
You know exactly then you gotto deal with relearning, you
know and stuff.

So well, yeah, that all does sound really good, um,
but one of the things that wehave had in the past is we've
had graphic designers, we've hadweb designers, we've had
lawyers, we've had x, you knowwhatever people come in and
they're oh yeah, I'll totallyhelp you out.

And then when we ask them to do something,
feel like oh, I'm busy, and thenwe never hear from them again.

Josh (01:22:08):
Yeah, and then yeah, that's the one thing that we
haven't.
It's like committed to actuallydo it, I got you.
It's easier said than done.
Really it is.
I mean.
That's the I mean if anything Iyou got to take advantage of
that.

Yeah, it's weird that mountain bikers would
rather go mountain biking thanactually do lawyer work.

Josh (01:22:30):
But if you don't, have the trails, there's nothing to
fucking ride guys.
You got to get involved.

Like you got to help out.

Josh (01:22:36):
If you have a unique skill , if you have any unique skill
that can help out your trailadvocacy group Jesus Christ, get
involved.
Help them, please Like, pleaselike.
Wherever you are in the worldand specifically in Tucson, help
them.

Fortunately, the forest service has been actually
letting us, you know, talk tothem, and they've been actually
listening to us, and so they'vebeen using some of their
resources to do the things thatwe want them to do.
That they're there for.
So that's pretty cool and so,really, one of the things that
we're really lacking in is justmanpower at this point.

(01:23:11):
Um, you know it's great to youknow get people on the board.
We do definitely need talent inall the different fields, um,
but one of the um more immediatethings is, you know, hands in
the dirt, hands in the dirt,right on.

Josh (01:23:28):
So at torcaorg, on your socials, you get your.
I know you guys are onInstagram.
I'm sure you're on Facebook,right.
So on your socials, and we'llput all those links in the show
notes.
Um, get involved locally and ifyou're not in Tucson, get
involved with your localadvocacy group.
Go out there.
At a minimum, you should bedonating at least one day a year
.
I think it should be one day amonth.
I really think it should bemaybe two days a month, but one
day you're at a minimum.
If you're riding a mountainbike and you're not helping out

(01:23:50):
in some way, you should feelguilty.
This is what I think.

Dane (01:23:54):
On the positive note.
When you do, you're going toyou're going to feel good about
it.
You're going to feel great LikeI personally have experienced
that and I know it's.
You know it's easy to say, hey,you owe it to the trails, but
really, uh, the amount that youget back from doing it is so
worth it.
It's so gratifying.
And so, for those people thatdon't do it because they don't

(01:24:15):
think they have the skill, theseguys are amazing.
They'll show you what to do, um, they'll help you figure it out
.
They'll bring tools.
You know, I mean, we carried agate out.
I just carried a gate out to 50year and then my kids dug holes
all day.

And you know my kids now, every time they go
over that gate, uh, they couldsay we did that, we helped make
this, yeah, and that gate'sgonna be there for yeah, pretty
much ever yeah exactly, I thinkit was heavy.
Yeah, it was really heavy.

Josh (01:24:41):
All right guys we've been talking for a while.
You got any final, you knowthank.
Thank you so much for comingout and spending some time with
us.
Do you got any final thoughtsfor our listeners?

I'd say get out, get involved.
Yeah, you really don't know howmuch gratitude and
accomplishment you'll feel untilafter you actually do it.
I know that I do it regularly,but one of my biggest ones was
kind of single-handedly gettingthat alternate to bug senior

(01:25:12):
scouted and in the plan andfinalized with less than a month
before submission.
So I usually don't like toprocrastinate, but that felt
great and I feel like it's a bigwin because it's another
three-ish miles of easier flowyhopefully jumpy trail that we

(01:25:32):
can get jumpy.

What about you, matt?
Oh man, yeah, just to uh piggyback on nick.
You know, get, get out thereand get involved.
Um, do whatever you can foryour local trail advocacy group.
Um, it's a lot of work and youdefinitely have them to thank
for everything that you haveyeah, and it'll make you feel
good like and it makes you bufftoo.

Dane (01:25:53):
Totally yeah, super sexy yeah but wear sunscreen, long
sleeves and photo shoes, yeah,so I mean, it's not.

We not only give you bean dip, fruit chips,
beer.

Vegan options available.
Yeah, you get snacks.

You get snacks .
And then we have gift cards, ohyeah, backpacks and other stuff
for a certain number of days ina year that you guys can that
trail workers can get, and a lotof people have already gotten
them this year and we're only,oh, we're about three quarters
of the way through

Dane (01:26:32):
the year We've had a lot of good, whether you want to pay
it forward and pay back for allthe work that's being done and
help out, or you do it for yourown gratification, or you do it
for a backpack or the snacks andwhatever it takes, or shuttle
apps with Homegrown hey listen.

Josh (01:26:46):
If you're listening to this podcast and you don't know
how to help in your local area,just shoot us an email
mountaincoggmailcom.
We will find the local advocacygroup for you, wherever you're
at in the world, and we willhelp get you connected and help
you figure out how to contribute.
You know, nick Matt dude, onbehalf of like all the mountain
bikers in Southeast Arizona, Iwant to thank you for like all
the stuff you're doing.
Like I have changed my ridingstyle.

(01:27:08):
I have started to ride moretechnical shit.
I've started riding themountain.
I'm super stoked about that.
I got big bikes now where I'vehad just cross country before.
You guys have changed my life,made my, my relationship with my
wife better, because she likesto ride that shit, and a lot of
that is attributed to like thework that you guys have done.
So like thank you, thank you,thank you, thank you.
Thank you so much for the workthat you've done and that you

(01:27:29):
continue to do.
Appreciate you guys have agreat day.
Thanks guys, thank you, thanksNice.

All Episodes

085 – Elevating Arizona's Mountain Biking Scene: TORCA's Mt. Lemmon Trail Building Initiative. (Nick Giovannucci & Matt Hrabko)

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}085 – Elevating Arizona's Mountain Biking Scene: TORCA's Mt. Lemmon Trail Building Initiative. (Nick Giovannucci & Matt Hrabko)