092 - SRAM vs Shimano: Comparing Mountain Bike Components with SRAM Field Guide Jimmy Nordloh - Mountain Cog

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
james is over here playing the piano.
I think I'm gonna sell my piano.
I haven't played it in like ayear.
I have one.
Yeah, that's not gonna.
My kids haven't played itactually.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
No, that's not true.
We got a.
We got a real piano from nanaand pop pop like an acoustic
piano like, yeah, like a big-assone, not an e-piano.
They had to hire people tobring it into the house.

Speaker 1 (00:28):
A.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
Steinway, something like that.
Yeah, and my son is on it allthe time.
He loves it, and so my wife ispretty stoked about that because
he has a pretty good ear formusic.
He's always listening to musicand stuff.
Yeah, I thought you guys playedthat live every time.

(00:50):
No, but he, you know that's himright.
Oh my god, would you stoptelling people that yeah, I do
every episode, but he listens,so he should know that.
Yeah, he's probably, he's heardyou say it.

Speaker 1 (00:55):
Six, times I'm gonna have to write a new one.
I think you're just gonna startcutting me out.
Yeah, I'm just gonna be likedid you know?
And then I'll just it'll be ablank, and then 15 seconds later
I'll be like you should likeoverlay.

Speaker 2 (01:06):
Like a chicken noise, did you know?

Speaker 1 (01:16):
I gotta get.
I'm gonna program one into oneof these things here so we can
get can you dig it?

Speaker 3 (01:21):
like a chicken sound that would be awesome, complete
with the soundboard.

Speaker 2 (01:25):
Dane clucking again.

Speaker 1 (01:28):
All right, you got something to tell us yeah, dad
joke.

Speaker 3 (01:32):
To start us off.
Let's see, penguin takes hiscar into a shop.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
It says Like the penguin from Batman or a penguin
.

Speaker 3 (01:41):
That's a hot topic right now, but no, just a
penguin.

Speaker 1 (01:43):
Tuxedo penguin it's a hot topic right now, but no,
just a penguin.

Speaker 3 (01:44):
Tuxedo penguin he's very lost from the polls Takes
his car into the shop.
Ask the mechanic how bad is it?
He goes.
Well, looks like you blew aseal.
Oh, he goes.
No, it's just ice cream.

Speaker 2 (02:00):
Oh, a two-parter.

Speaker 1 (02:02):
That was a double punchline.

Speaker 2 (02:04):
Yeah, I don't think we've had a two-parter.
That was a double punchline.
Yeah, I don't think we've had atwo-parter.

Speaker 1 (02:06):
I've got one I want to tell, but I'm just going to
save it in case we need one forthe next.
Do it in the middle.

Speaker 3 (02:11):
Just randomly, we've had a couple of those.

Speaker 1 (02:13):
What was it?
Dave Slagle did one.
He had it all planned out too.
He's like do you have any finalthoughts?
He's, that's right it was.

Speaker 2 (02:21):
It was like the microbiologist joke or something
like that oh, that's right.

Speaker 1 (02:24):
I rode with a microbiologist.
That's fun.
Would you like to introduceyourself, my friend?

Speaker 3 (02:28):
Sure, absolutely One thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (02:31):
Absolutely Big fans.

Speaker 3 (02:32):
Thanks for coming, you guys are the background
noise to a lot of my driving.

Speaker 2 (02:35):
Nice Podcasts are awesome for driving.

Speaker 3 (02:38):
Yes, I know right, I'm Jimmy.
Jimmy Nordloh James, that's mylegal name.
But I can't think of anyonethat would probably call me that
.
Yeah, I am the SRAM field guidefor the Southwest Arizona, new
Mexico.
Been with SRAM for about sevenyears now, started in the
warranty support team, the 1-800hotline for dealers across the

(03:01):
US.
Did you work with Alana?
Yes, you did.

Speaker 2 (03:04):
Yes, absolutely, she's still there.
I don't have a crush over her.

Speaker 3 (03:06):
I have like a professional crush on Alana A
lot of people say that Not likea girl crush but she's just such
a cool person.
She's made a lot of good happenfor Zip.
Yeah, no, she was thedepartment manager for a time
there, but yeah, she's a fixturethere at the indie office.

Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah, she's helped me with so many boxer forks.
You have no idea, okay so?

Speaker 1 (03:28):
before we get started , you just said something that
made me think I didn't even puttwo and two together that Zip
was part of SRAM.
Oh, yeah, so like, maybe youcould start out by educating us
on, like, what are all theproduct brands that kind of fall
under the SRAM umbrella?

Speaker 3 (03:40):
I think I get that a lot, a lot of.
Uh wait, sram owns that.
What?
Yeah, it's crazy.
Uh, no, I mean, sram is acompany that's grown by
acquisition mostly.
Um, you know, we, we findorganic.
Yeah, that's what I do, oh,finding people that are good at
what they do and you know,bringing them into the fold.

(04:02):
Um so yeah, sram uh owns thebrands RockShox, zip, truvative,
quark, hammerhead and, mostrecently, the apparel brand.

Speaker 2 (04:10):
Velocio.
Oh, I didn't know that.

Speaker 1 (04:11):
I know all those brands except for Quark?

Speaker 3 (04:12):
Tell me about Quark.
So Quark was the standalonebrand of the power meter
technology for a long time Now,more so.
It's kind of just like absorbedinto the inline road power
meters.
But we still, you know, callout the the licensed cork
technology, and that office isup in Spearfish Spearfish, south

(04:32):
Dakota.

Speaker 1 (04:33):
Spearfish South Dakota, black.

Speaker 2 (04:35):
Hills, offices everywhere, colorado Springs
yeah, I'll.

Speaker 3 (04:39):
I'll list those off to a U S locations Chicago
global HQ, indian, indianapolis,zip manufacturing warehouse and
uh, warranty and retail support.
And then you got ColoradoSprings, the home of rock shocks
.
Um, now kind of our newflagship building.
Um, there's uh, we movedrecently to a to an all new

(04:59):
facility there.
That's, that's awesome.
Uh, probably, I think, ourbiggest us location now.
Um, quark and spearfish, um,kind of a smaller outfit.
Um, you know, those are all theengineers that started out
working on the power meters.
So it's a smaller, more agileteam there, the the, you know,
kind of the nerds behind dataguys.

Speaker 2 (05:18):
I was just thinking that like they don't need much
space.

Speaker 3 (05:20):
No, yeah, exactly I mean, where they started was
basically a shed, turn it into,you know, a huge product, um,
and then, uh, lastly, san LuisObispo, um, and that was the
home of true vative, uh, beforethe acquisition, um, and that's
still another like anengineering forward office.

Speaker 2 (05:40):
So, again, pretty pretty skeleton crew, true
vatives still there.
They're still doing stuff, soit's not.
I mean, I noticed the crankskind of got, you know, absorbed.

Speaker 3 (05:50):
Yeah, same thing like Quark.
Um, you know the the Truvativetechnology, still called out and
licensed, I think still is.
You know one of the terms of ofthe acquisition back then?
Um, but yeah, truvative wasbasically, uh, you know how we
got our bottom bracket and crank, uh, you know business and
products uh, up and running.
Uh, like, for instance, theywere the ones that pioneered dub

(06:13):
Yep, oh, I didn't know that?

Speaker 2 (06:15):
Oh, I didn't know that.
That's cool.

Speaker 1 (06:16):
So, like when you say the word absorbed, when you say
that basically what you'remeaning is the core technology,
the intellectual property getslike rebranded now as a SRAM
product or another one of yourbrands.
It doesn't call out true nativeall the time, but it's still
part of the same family.

Speaker 3 (06:31):
Exactly, Uh think avid as well.

Speaker 2 (06:33):
I was just about to say you missed one.

Speaker 3 (06:35):
I know I know we, we don't really call that one out
as much anymore.

Speaker 2 (06:38):
What is it?

Speaker 3 (06:39):
The little roll of a jig on the back of the
derailleur is's still an avidthing that is still stamped with
the avid mark.

Speaker 1 (06:45):
Yeah, exactly, on all uh equal mechanical for anybody
who worked at avid that's likeso so shram acquired avid yes
that was again one of the earlyuh acquisitions did I still keep
a set of bb7s in my oh, that'sa great mechanical disc brake,
right, yeah, I just like,eventually I'm going to build
them up.
They they're so easy.

Speaker 2 (07:05):
They're great, especially if you're building a
monster gravel.
It's perfect, because then youcan run regular road stuff on it
, but then put disc brakes on it.

Speaker 1 (07:13):
That's awesome.

Speaker 2 (07:14):
There's a different leverage ratio if you use road
levers.
Did you know that there's aroad BB7.

Speaker 3 (07:19):
Yeah, a short pull versus long pull, oh no shit.

Speaker 1 (07:22):
Well, that would explain some problems I've had.

Speaker 3 (07:24):
Yeah, yeah, Some people have mixed those up.
You run the flat bar on theshort pull road caliper.
You're going to have about amillimeter of lever throw and
the other way gets a littlemushy.
Yeah, exactly it still works.

Speaker 2 (07:36):
I mean, you probably won't die, maybe yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:39):
So I keep hearing all the bicycle strategists guys
like me but for the bikeindustry they talk about further
acquisition, furtherconsolidations happening.
So I'd love to get some insideinformation.
Who are you guys going to buynext?

Speaker 3 (07:52):
Well, Juan, that is way above my pay grade.
No, each one comes as asurprise to me.

Speaker 2 (07:59):
What would you buy?
What's a brand that you see?
That's out there, that's ripefor the weekend.
Well, I tried to buy GorillaGravity, but it didn't work.

Speaker 3 (08:05):
Well there you go.
I thought you could, I thoughtyou could go clear.
No, they've already sold.
Oh yeah, that's true, I forgotthey ended up selling all those
Can't do Pro's Closet.

Speaker 1 (08:16):
They went bankrupt.
Pro's Closet went bankrupt.

Speaker 2 (08:18):
Yeah, but then they just oh interesting, another
former employer of mine.

Speaker 3 (08:22):
Oh, really no way, we'll talk about that.

Speaker 1 (08:25):
I don't know.
I think that I would probablygo to the source, although I'm a
little worried about Chinainvading Taiwan.

Speaker 2 (08:30):
I think there's a couple e-bike motor companies
that are right.
Did you see what?

Speaker 1 (08:34):
happened yesterday.

Speaker 2 (08:35):
Sorry, keep going, we'll come back to the China
topic.

Speaker 1 (08:42):
Keep going.

Speaker 2 (08:43):
No, tell, shot off the airspace.
Yeah, but they're all fishingboats.
They're not fishing boats.
They told us they were.

Speaker 3 (08:50):
Yeah, exactly, I was going from the official report.

Speaker 2 (08:53):
No, I've been sworn off the news so I haven't heard
anything about the news Otherthan bike stuff.
I am definitely absorbing bikenews.

Speaker 1 (09:01):
Yeah, I think by the time that we well, it would be
interesting to ask him if heknows who these guys are.
Cause, by the time we publishthis episode, we will have
published at least the firstfaction bike studio.
Oh yeah, episode.
Are you familiar with factionbike studio?

Speaker 2 (09:12):
No, you'll have to listen.

Speaker 1 (09:14):
Yes, yeah, it's pretty cool.
This is a.
We're really excited about thisepisode, yep, where we get into
deep technology with the top oftheir R&D organization.
Yeah, I want to talk geometry.
You want to talk geometry?
Yeah, yeah, that's geometry.

Speaker 2 (09:31):
Suspension kinematics , I feel like.
So I'm trying to think.
Sram doesn't have shoes.
They don't have helmets.

Speaker 3 (09:39):
There's a lot of stuff that SRAM could have.
You know, there's so manyplayers in that space already.
I mean, so I guess, on thetopic of of acquisitions, uh,
really, the only two thatoccurred during my time, um,
everything was, you know,already well-established.
Um, I joined SRAM in 2017.
So I don't think.
Yeah, I think the most recentacquisition to there was

(10:02):
probably, I think zip was thelast one in 2007.
Yeah, Um, and that's when theyoutfitted the whole indie office
.
Um, but yeah, most recently inthe last two years have been
hammerhead and Volosio.
Um yeah, Hammerhead is a reallycool tie-in.
I mean having a bicyclecomputer, that's, you know, just
completely native to all SRAMaccess products has been a huge

(10:24):
advantage.
I really genuinely never rodewith a head unit before uh
trying out my hammerhead, andyou know now I'm like the kind
of person that doesn't go out ona ride without a computer and a
power meter.

Speaker 2 (10:35):
So you know how um, kleenex is like what we think of
for nose tissue.
You know that's garbage and soyou're is hammerhead like a.

Speaker 1 (10:47):
I thought you were talking about hammer, like the
nutrition.
No, no, yeah, that's kind ofwhy I said you're like talking
about bike computers.
I'm like what the hell?
But it's not a bike computer.

Speaker 3 (10:54):
It's a gps right yeah , yeah, I mean, I mean it's a
full ensuite.
Yeah, gps, so like can you?

Speaker 2 (11:01):
does it start playing well with all of these other
things that are on the bikesthat play well?
It's not just SRAM stuff, Forsure.

Speaker 3 (11:06):
Yeah for sure, it's also AMP plus compatible et
cetera, and then it just kind ofstreamlines specifically the
SRAM integration.
It's super, super easy, do you?

Speaker 1 (11:18):
guys get jacked up by the Strava API change.
No, ooh, I didn't hear aboutthat.

Speaker 2 (11:23):
So what does that mean?

Speaker 1 (11:24):
All the roadies are freaking out.
They totally have overwhelmedit.
But Strava came out and changedtheir API or they're about to
change their API in the nextcouple weeks and it's going to
prohibit integration with someother products some other apps.

Speaker 2 (11:36):
Help me with what an API is.

Speaker 1 (11:37):
Oh, Jesus Christ.
This is the protocol thatenables kind of two disparate
systems to talk to each other.

Speaker 2 (11:43):
It's kind of like a bus system.

Speaker 1 (11:46):
So think more like software code.

Speaker 2 (11:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:48):
This is like it kind of this is how you talk to her,
this is how you use this, thelanguage, something like that.

Speaker 3 (11:53):
Yeah, like a translation protocol.

Speaker 2 (11:55):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (11:55):
Yeah, that's how I understand it.
I'm not a software engineer butuh.
But I know everyone's freakingout about the API, but I think
they're all overreacting.
Oh okay, Time will tell.
By the time this podcastepisode comes out, people will
already know.

Speaker 2 (12:07):
So they changed it to like shut out people.

Speaker 1 (12:09):
Shut a couple different yeah, a couple apps
out that were using their datain ways that they didn't think
were appropriate or wereviolating their intellectual
policy.

Speaker 2 (12:16):
So they switched to Pig Latin and didn't tell anyone
what the translation was.
No, no, they announced it.

Speaker 1 (12:20):
They said we're going to turn off the shoot to you,
you, you and you.

Speaker 3 (12:23):
Oh, okay, and everyone thinks oh my God,
Strava's not going to work withanything anymore.

Speaker 1 (12:27):
That's not true, but it'll be interesting to see how
it plays out.

Speaker 3 (12:30):
Who did shut out?

Speaker 1 (12:34):
I did not notice any interruption.
You're getting deeper.
I probably shouldn't havebrought this shit up.
Well, now you know, what'sfunny is the death of strava.

Speaker 2 (12:42):
Finally, no, it's, I actually like strava for a lot
of things.

Speaker 1 (12:46):
Like you know, you can find trails, you can get,
find people you know like lacystalks people on strava says
stalk is the wrong word but likefinds interesting badass women
to ride with yes is a better wayto say it.
Yes, she.
She's my wife, by the way,which I actually think is smart
because you can go.

Speaker 2 (13:01):
Hey, this, this person is riding at the same
level.
I am, maybe we can hit a rideor something, and I won't be
waiting the whole time or theywon't be waiting.
So I actually think Stravashould integrate that.

Speaker 1 (13:11):
Ooh, find someone that rides like you.
Yeah, you should suggest thatas an idea.

Speaker 2 (13:15):
Yeah, I know because I'm smart.
You are very smart, so I gotsome SRAM trivia.

Speaker 1 (13:24):
Oh yeah, go for it.
See, so, uh, I got some sramtrivia oh yeah, see if we can
stump jimmy.

Speaker 3 (13:26):
I doubt it, seriously doubt it yeah what was the
first product?

Speaker 2 (13:32):
I would say that people think was sram first
product that people think wassram our actual first product.
Or just I want to say, you know, I'm afraid to say it was your
first product because it wasn'tcalled SRAM.
That's true, it's GripShift.
Yes, exactly, yeah, that's what.
So GripShift was the start,right?
Yep, 1987.
Yeah, they started with aderailleur.

(13:53):
Well, they started withshifters and then derailleur,
and then they just kept going.

Speaker 3 (14:04):
Yeah, yeah, josh, what do you think?

Speaker 2 (14:05):
SRAM stands for.

Speaker 1 (14:06):
I know what he's going to tell you.
I already have my own acronym.

Speaker 2 (14:13):
No, I was going to say what does it translate to in
Poland?
Oh, is it Polish.

Speaker 1 (14:15):
Yeah, sram.

Speaker 2 (14:15):
Polish.

Speaker 3 (14:17):
You've heard this right?
Yeah, I think it's a euphemism,it's shit or something.
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (14:23):
Anybody who doesn't like SRAM loves that trivia.

Speaker 1 (14:26):
Oh my gosh, you shouldn't have told me that.

Speaker 2 (14:27):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, it is funny because you put it into
Google and it happens.

Speaker 1 (14:32):
I have a friend coming back from Poland next
week that I'm going to meet andhave lunch with her, and I'll
ask her if SRAM means poop inPolish.

Speaker 3 (14:38):
Okay, all right, confirm what's your guess for
those four letters what's myguess for?
I'm gonna look at the acronymright there uh speed racing
awesome machine that I like ithonestly that probably sticker
yeah it's kind of more excitingthan the real answer what's the
real answer?
Uh, it's just an acronym.

(14:59):
It's uh.
It's an acronym of the uhfounding members ofAM first
initials.
So Scott Ray and Sam and SamYep Sam was the last one, scott
Ray and Sam Ray being the middlename of our longtime CEO Stan.

Speaker 1 (15:17):
Stan.

Speaker 2 (15:17):
Day.

Speaker 3 (15:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:19):
Okay, so they just took random letters from Scott
Ray and Sam and made SRAM out ofit.

Speaker 3 (15:24):
Yeah, an amalgamation of their first initials.

Speaker 2 (15:27):
You think they had to navigate.
How long ago was that, do youthink?

Speaker 3 (15:34):
I forget when the name actually got assigned, but
I know that it was right beforeInterbike that year and they
didn't have a name for thecompany yet, so that's what they
came up with.

Speaker 2 (15:42):
I wonder if you've got to navigate this world.
So people ask about guru bikesall the time.
Yeah, um, hey, you know therewas a guru bikes there was a
bike company called.

Speaker 1 (15:52):
I still get those.
If you google guru, guru, itstill comes up they have a guru
guru fit system.

Speaker 2 (15:57):
So if you notice, uh, tyler's fit system is called
vandruff and so that he doesn'tdeal with that oh, that's
interesting and that's not whyhe did it, but that's one of the
happy things.
It's a good excuse.
Exactly, yeah, and I wonder ifthey had to figure something out
.
Have to think about that.
I know Santa Cruz's bike, theSolo, had to be changed to 5010.

(16:19):
And then somebody else had tochange their name.

Speaker 3 (16:22):
Oh, envy, just for IP .
Envy used to be Edge.

Speaker 2 (16:26):
Yeah yeah, edge Composites.
And they had to change theirname after a couple years
because somebody in Europe oncethey went global they had to pay
attention Interesting.

Speaker 3 (16:36):
That's a good point.
I think that was probably oneof the motivations to just yeah,
picking just the names that Ican't copyright this.
Just slam some stuff togetherand making a unique name.

Speaker 2 (16:47):
I guess they didn't Google.

Speaker 3 (16:49):
Polish, which is ironic because there's a lot of
Poles in Chicago.
Oh, there you go.

Speaker 1 (16:52):
I didn't think that you would be Googling in 1986.

Speaker 2 (16:55):
I'm just saying, that's true.
There you go.

Speaker 1 (17:01):
OK, I'm facing south, looking at your bench, and I'm
seeing two signs of shimano andshram.
Why is the shram sign better,bigger?

Speaker 2 (17:06):
well.
So hey, you want to know somesome guru trivia?
Yeah.
So jimmy came in one time andhe gave us a shram sign.
Yeah and uh, I like shram, Ilike them both.
Yeah, you know, I really do.
Um, but he put it right over,uh, willie's bench, oh, and
willie's a a Shimano guy yeah,and he so.
Willie complained to ourShimano rep and the Shimano rep

(17:29):
brought in the Shimano sign.
Which just cracks me up.
It's like West Side Story.
Yeah, it is.
Yeah, we're all going to comeout snapping our fingers.

Speaker 1 (17:38):
Where's the micro shift?
I'm expecting to see that.
Oh, whatever, yeah, that's notgoing to happen, although my
whatever yeah, that's not goingto happen.

Speaker 2 (17:42):
So, although my kids' bikes have micro shift, Do they
?
Really yeah On their old ones,not on the new ones.

Speaker 1 (17:47):
So the new ones have SRAM All right.
Jimmy.
So, you've heard us talk onthis podcast before you know
like exclusively I run Shimano.
Today I have run SRAM in thepast for sure.

Speaker 3 (18:01):
Yeah, uh, gx level or above.
I think back in the day it wascalled X nine, uh, yep, yeah,
yeah, that was a while ago.

Speaker 1 (18:05):
A long time ago.
Yeah, x5, x7.
I didn't mess with the X5 or X7, but X9 or above.
So exclusively Shimano,everything, brakes, drivetrain,
everything.
Sell me on SRAM.
Tell me why I'm wrong.

Speaker 3 (18:21):
It's such an open-ended question.

Speaker 1 (18:22):
I know.

Speaker 3 (18:24):
And honestly, you know, honestly, you really can't
get, you know, a bad group setthese days.

Speaker 2 (18:29):
No, they both do great, for sure, and we mix them
all the time, but don't tellJimmy that.

Speaker 3 (18:34):
So I see it all the time.
Oh God, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (18:38):
Like that's, like the mechanic, like I don't know.
Holy grail for us is to knowwhat can work with what you know
, and to, and then, and thenShimano coined the term a
compatibility and Bcompatibility, and so that's a,
that's a thing that means that ais it's designed that way.

Speaker 1 (18:57):
B means you may be able to get to work, but we're
not going to guarantee it.
So, um, do you get all this inthe dark web?
Is that how you figure it?

Speaker 2 (19:01):
out.

Speaker 3 (19:01):
Yeah, actually, yeah, we go into the alley, out back,
and the homeless people tell usso you know, I I would say that
if we're starting from likecurrent state, like right now,
like you're going, you know,into a bike shop to either buy a
complete bike or a drivetrain.
I mean number one, the thebiggest thing, even from my time
starting at SRAM, is just likehow much time, money, commitment

(19:26):
has been invested in gettingour quality you know, to near.
I mean, nobody can say perfect,but I mean it's, it's night and
day from you know the kind ofstuff that I supported from the
warranty team you know six,seven years ago.
Um, and on top of top of that,like as these products have

(19:46):
developed, there has been theactive you know effort to make
them as serviceable, replaceable, customizable as possible.
So, like leaving you know thosekind of like backwards
compatibility options, um, yeah,small individual replacement
service parts and I think goingforward for for anyone, that's

(20:07):
that's ultimately what's goingto make it kind of the best
value.

Speaker 2 (20:10):
Drivetrain, I mean, yeah, it's hard to argue when
you can get a full xt group setfor you know the cost of you
know one xg cassette yeah, yeah,that's yeah, that's true, and
that's kind of something we'vetalked about is like there's a
at certain price points there'sa winner and at certain price
points there's, you know, not awinner, performance, you know.

(20:33):
And so it depends on yourmotivation.
And once you hit a certain likeuh, we were talking on one uh
podcast about uh, srams, youknow, kind of there's a fairly
good separation between eachgroup as far as performance goes
, and so as you move up, there'sa good reason to move up, and
with Shimano, there's sometimesnot a good reason to move up,

(20:56):
and so we see a lot more bikesoutfitted at the lower end with
Shimano stuff and a lot of bikesat the high end with SRAM stuff
.

Speaker 3 (21:03):
Yeah, that's.
That's where it really standsout.

Speaker 2 (21:06):
That's not.
I don't think that's aconscious thing other than you
know, when somebody's looking ata $10,000 bike, it's very
competitive and a lot of themjust want wireless and they want
transmission.
You know it becomes the clearwinner.
But when somebody is looking ata $3,000 bike, they kind, they
kind of want dior.
You know, if they're going tomake a compromise between like a

(21:26):
dior and like an sx orsomething is shram a public
company uh, no, no still totallyprivate.

Speaker 1 (21:31):
Okay, that explains why I can't find the third
quarter performance.
I was gonna start asking abunch of questions about revenue
and profit and what percentageof r&d is is of revenue, but you
can't tell me that's I mean,yeah, he's just, he's like the
lead stoke guy.

Speaker 3 (21:47):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (21:48):
He's not the accountant I'm all vibes, not
numbers.

Speaker 1 (21:51):
Yeah, but the reason I was asking is is you're saying
hey, listen, we've investedsignificantly?
In all the things that youtalked about, right, small parts
, maintainability, reversecompatibility, all that kind of
stuff to make it easier for theuser to use your products, right
?
Um, I was just curious at like,what percentage of your revenue
are you actually investing todo that?
Oh, that I don't know.

Speaker 3 (22:13):
Yeah, I don't know offhand, but I you know.
I do know for certain that youknow SRAM has been very smart to
bring in a lot of very smartpeople as we've grown, so that
we don't you know, make the kindof mistakes that a growing
company often does.
So, yeah, I mean, obviously thepandemic was unprecedented times

(22:33):
for every bike manufacturer,but it meant that we really
capitalized on that.
And you know, take that hugeboom, and I know that a lot of
that basically goes right backinto, uh, our, our manufacturing
.
R and D, I mean engineering andmanufacturing, are a hundred
percent the thing.

Speaker 1 (22:51):
So not hookers and blow.
Maybe in the old days you guyswere cool.

Speaker 2 (22:56):
Maybe, in the old days, that was the inner bike
days.
Yeah, I mean.

Speaker 3 (23:04):
SRAM really did start with a very punk rock origin.
Those guys were wild.

Speaker 1 (23:10):
Well, they've done a good job at rebranding, because
I do not see them as a punk rockbrand.
I just don't.

Speaker 2 (23:16):
I remember back in the day we would have people
that wanted American-made bikes.
And so you always got the SRAM,grip Shift and SRAM derailleurs
.

Speaker 3 (23:24):
That had the American flagmade bikes.
So you always got the SRAM gripshift and SRAM.
Derailleurs it had the Americanflag on them.

Speaker 2 (23:26):
Yeah, they actually had an American flag one, and so
there was kind of this definiteAmerican-made.
But they've just become so muchmore global since then and
manufacturing for everybody hasmoved to wherever it's most
efficient, you know, and ratherthan just in a place to be in a
place.

Speaker 1 (23:43):
You know, I've researched this extensively and
I've concluded that it's bettermanufacturing in Taiwan than
there is in the United States.

Speaker 2 (23:50):
They've got the practice.
If we had, 20 years.

Speaker 3 (23:53):
You should see the facilities there.
They're incredible.

Speaker 1 (23:57):
We're going to go to the Taipei Bike Show next year.

Speaker 3 (23:58):
Oh, nice, awesome.
That's the goal.

Speaker 1 (24:00):
Assuming that China doesn't take over Taiwan.

Speaker 3 (24:02):
I know, yeah, fingers crossed I might be visiting
myself and I think late springto the the SRAM facility, which.

Speaker 2 (24:08):
I'm really excited about.
I keep hearing about is prettyamazing.

Speaker 1 (24:11):
Jimmy, can you get us into it if we go over there?
Yeah, absolutely Hell.
Yeah, that would be cool.

Speaker 2 (24:16):
So for sure we're going to have to start doing of
stuff oh yeah, we can do that.

Speaker 1 (24:21):
We just don't want to show us us no, as soon as we
have like a 40 femaledemographic.
As soon as they see our faces,dane, we'll just walk arm and
arm and we'll wear gopro'schesties.

Speaker 2 (24:29):
So they can't actually see us yeah, so and
it's just, and we'll just holdhandlebars in front of us as we
walk through oh, here's somegood trivia for you.

Speaker 3 (24:38):
Uh, josh, how many people do you think sram employs
?

Speaker 1 (24:41):
let's see.
So I just heard on one of thebike strategists podcast which
is outstanding, the one that Isent you something that
surprised me, and I haven'tindependently verified that, nor
would I, but would I be able tobecause SRAM is a private
company, but I heard that SRAMand Shimano are the two biggest
companies in the bike industry.
That probably tracks yeah, soI'm going to guess 3,000.

Speaker 3 (25:05):
That's a pretty good guess, is it?
Mm-hmm, is it?
What do you think?

Speaker 2 (25:08):
12.
1,200.

Speaker 3 (25:09):
I think there's 12.
Oh, 1,200.
You're guessing 12,000.

Speaker 2 (25:13):
No, just 12 people.

Speaker 1 (25:17):
Jimmy's 9% of the company is sitting right here we
just talked to Outbound.

Speaker 2 (25:20):
There's six people.
I bound six people.

Speaker 3 (25:23):
I had a funny interaction like that.
When I asked a power sportsshop that was bringing in some
new e-bikes, like you know, theywere just asking some stuff
about tram.
Um, and you know, coming fromthe power sports side, like
these huge companies, like PR,mobility, is KTM, oh so gas gas.
Yeah, you know all those youknow that's like a $20,000, or
sorry, 20,000 employeecorporation.

Speaker 1 (25:44):
It sucks that they're going out of business, though.

Speaker 2 (25:46):
I don't think it's the whole thing.
I think it's a division.
They're going out of business.

Speaker 1 (25:49):
The whole thing.
I'll send you some articles.
Oh shit, We'll get to thatlater.

Speaker 3 (25:53):
But just like the reference point of the bike
industry, they're like, oh,you're the bike rep for this
brand.
They're like, oh well.

Speaker 1 (26:02):
It's about 5,800.
Oh, that's not bad.
That wasn't a good guess.
That was 50% right.
That's better than mine.

Speaker 3 (26:10):
Like I said, most people either go like, yeah, 500
people, or like 12,000.

Speaker 1 (26:15):
Okay, so you're much bigger than I realized.

Speaker 3 (26:17):
Yeah, so I mean about 3,000 of that is Taiwan alone.

Speaker 2 (26:21):
Wow, oh no shit, dude .
They make a lot of stuff, so alot of you guys have your own
manufacturing.

Speaker 1 (26:28):
SRAM does their own manufacturing.

Speaker 3 (26:30):
SRAM owns its manufacturing facilities in
Taiwan.

Speaker 1 (26:31):
So that's the difference between some of the
other companies.

Speaker 3 (26:34):
Exactly Everyone that manufactures a SRAM component
is a SRAM employee.

Speaker 1 (26:38):
Do you guys manufacture for anyone else?
No, okay, want to.

Speaker 2 (26:48):
You gotta ask.
I mean, it's true.
Well, I mean, is there, isthere any brands that we don't
know about, like uh, uh, I meanyeah, component wise.

Speaker 3 (26:54):
I mean, it's just so neat.
I mean that that's obviously amuch more like viable option in
the, you know, frames and OEMspace.
Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2 (27:02):
Yeah Well, this, you know this, this, this
engineering studio was coolCause it kind of
compartmentalizes all the thejobs design.
You know he's talking aboutfaction bike studio now, yes
yeah, it hasn't dropped yet, sohasn't.

Speaker 1 (27:17):
Well, they will.
By the time this comes out,they will okay, yeah, so jimmy
doesn't know what we're talkingabout.

Speaker 2 (27:20):
Yeah, so this, this is an engineering firm that kind
of is behind the scenes, youknow, and then you can go hire
meridia or whoever you know,giant or whoever, to build your
frame and then you can clv yeah,you can hire, you know.
Uh, oh, geez geez, I justspaced, we Are One.
We Are One in Canada.
Yeah to do your hoops, and thenyou can hire you know so we Are

(27:42):
One's making hoops for otherpeople, yeah.
Industry 9.
And I think they're doing thebirds, if I remember correctly.
Yeah, don't quote me on thatand don't get me in trouble, but
I think they're doing the birdhoops and they're doing the i9
hoops well, I know what I'mdoing tonight.

Speaker 1 (27:56):
Right, the illusion of choice, whiskey and some
googling, so um so and and thatguy's cool because they're
manufacturing them.

Speaker 2 (28:03):
So and then you get somebody else, you know, uh like
five dev, uh, to make yourcranks, you know, and so you
could build a whole bike just byhiring people to do it, you
know I mean you could build awhole bike by hiring people in
tucson to do it right here.
I don't know, man, you know,like who's gonna make the
cassette?

Speaker 3 (28:21):
uh, a nuco on 22nd and pantano really scent is
probably one of the mostimpressive pieces of
manufacturing.

Speaker 2 (28:28):
Yeah, I mean remember , I'm making I know, but I'm
making a set would just costtwelve thousand dollars.

Speaker 1 (28:35):
I'm making super precision, like multi tens of
millions of dollar products thathave so they could manufacture,
yeah, you guys could easilybang it out.

Speaker 3 (28:44):
Raytheon could make the whole thing yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:45):
Right, but we wouldn't do that.
But I'm saying from the supplybase in Tucson I could, I could
sort.
We should do that.

Speaker 3 (28:50):
And the bike would only cost the government a
hundred thousand dollars.

Speaker 1 (28:52):
Dude are you kidding me Like a hundred million
dollars, Dude?
Are you kidding me Like?

Speaker 2 (28:55):
$100 million we're talking about government
contract.
Toilet is a million.

Speaker 1 (29:01):
One of the federal acquisition regulations says
that every piece of metal in adefense product has to have been
smelted in the United States.
Yes, do you know how fuckinghard it is to find a screw and
prove that it was smelted.

Speaker 2 (29:12):
You're paying like $8 for a screw.
I know it's impossible.
I don't understand that.
Do they do?
Yeah, it's about product.

Speaker 1 (29:18):
I mean it's good intentions about protecting the
industrial base.
We want to have the capabilityUnited States to do that.
And so they're spending theirmoney in a way that's and it's a
good idea but in practice itmakes it impossible, and that's
why you've Toilet was like a$100,000 toilet or something
like that.
Yeah.
I don't know, we don't maketoilets.
I'm glad bikes aren't like that.

Speaker 3 (29:39):
That's Tram's next product.
Yeah, toilets.

Speaker 1 (29:44):
All right, so keep selling me man.
Yeah, what else?
What else?
Why should I switch?
Why should I not buy that sweetPivot Firebird in extra large
on sale over there with full XTRbefore I leave tonight, Cause
I'm seriously thinking about it?

Speaker 3 (29:58):
Well, you know there is the whole aspect of like
having you know the kind ofholistic group set on your bike
of a fully SRAM to rock shockszip is that you know they're all
sharing very similar designlanguage, like engineering
language, that they're allpretty similar to work on.

Speaker 2 (30:16):
Um, you know, share batteries for instance yeah, I
do like that.

Speaker 3 (30:20):
Yeah, Versus, you know right now, um, you know you
can have a fully wireless, youknow, flight attendant bike.
Uh, you know that you caninterchange the batteries with
the drive train.
Meanwhile, if you want to havethe same kind of setup from our
competitors, you know you've gotinternal di2 batteries, tubes,
a fox neo battery now, yes, andyou know you have.

Speaker 2 (30:42):
Or the old fox live stuff which is a different
battery than that one which istheir dropper I think the neo
shares the dropper yes uh, theshock.
They're learning so yeah, that'smy biggest thing with uh
shimano.
That I always tell josh is likethey.
They just wait a long time todo stuff and then they do a good
job.
Realistically they do a goodjob.

(31:03):
They're just way behindeverybody, like their drive
they're.
I've been studying up on uhe-bikes lately, yeah, and their
drive system is just gettingbeaten like you wouldn't believe
.
Like left and right, people arejust bailing on their drive
system and I don't know whenthey're gonna have a new one
come at the oe level.

Speaker 3 (31:20):
You mean just like yeah, I mean bosch is taking
that bosch is kicking everyone'sbutt, yeah, and and.

Speaker 2 (31:26):
And.
I don't think it's becausebosch is cheaper, you know, I
think it's just becauseshimano's just not really come
out with anything very new otherthan you know.
Maybe a software update,software update, you know, or
something like that.

Speaker 3 (31:37):
That's, that's, you know, the con.
The big contrast between thetwo Shimano is the, you know,
tried and true Leviathan ofmanufacturing and design.
They can bring something tomarket in mass, produce it and
have it be really good Umwhereas, you know, we move a
little faster and significantlyfaster yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:57):
And that's, and that comes with growing pains Like.

Speaker 3 (31:59):
honestly, you know I think SRAM does get some some
grief for that sometimes of, uh,you know, to the consumer
perspective it can be.
You know it can feel like youknow a product release that
isn't fully ready yet and youknow that's kind of the question
of, well, would you rather haveit 90% of the way done and use
it right now and, you know, fixit when any potential problem

(32:22):
arises, or wait five years forit to be perfect?

Speaker 2 (32:25):
Yeah, well, and that's, and that's kind of what
it is, is it's?
I don't even think they knowit's 90%, they think it's a
hundred, but it just hasn't gonethrough every possible scenario
Exactly, yeah, or somethingpops up, so like up.
So like I was going to ask you,I got a question for you uh,
what do you think is the productthat tram has made in the last

(32:46):
five years?
We could do that to 10 years.
Uh, five years, uh, then yearsopens up is the worst one, that
you don't want to hear aboutanymore, and the best one that
you can't shut up about.

Speaker 3 (32:59):
These are great.
Yeah, these are great.
So like if it's opened up to 10years, I mean it's obviously 10
years.

Speaker 2 (33:04):
It's avid elixir, yeah, and that that haunted us.

Speaker 3 (33:08):
Yeah, haunted us for a long time, yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:10):
Well, you changed the name.
Yeah, the brakes are no longercalled avid, so we were just
talking about that.

Speaker 1 (33:15):
How is that?
Why the name was?

Speaker 2 (33:16):
rebranded.
One of the reasons.
It's one of the reasons to justget rid of that, the
association, that stigma, yeah.

Speaker 3 (33:22):
Yeah, For for anyone listening that might not have
suffered through the avid elixirbleed process, the elixir has
been.

Speaker 2 (33:30):
The juices were bad.
It's funny Cause the so okay,here's my perspective as
somebody who's not working forSRAM.
So, and as long as I've beendoing this, there was a problem
with the Juicies.
The Juicy brakes had an issuewhere the main master cylinder
pistons would kind of swell andget stuck inside the brake lever
and they would get a stickypiston and it was basically not

(33:53):
move and it would kind of keepyour brakes on and then you
couldn't bleed them.
You had to pull them apart andrebuild them.
So they redesigned the brake andthey came up with this amazing
design of a cone kind of styleor taper bore um piston yeah
that would get rid of thisproblem yeah and they call it an
elixir and they were like thisis this is going to change your

(34:14):
life, this is the best brakeever.
And then there was anotherproblem.
So I would say, yeah, those twolike.
Ironically, I feel like one ofthe worst things that's happened
is after the Elixirs.
They came out with guides,which I loved and I still rock
them on my bikes, but they wentback to the same piston as the

(34:36):
Juicies and they ran into thesame problem because, as far as
I know and tell me if I'm wronguh, on the the, on the um guide
break, there's only one partthat they don't make.
Is that?

Speaker 1 (34:51):
right, got us, yeah, yeah, it's the one part that the
problem part is the one theydon't make the one problem, yeah
, and I think it's absorbingfluid, I think it swells.

Speaker 2 (35:02):
I've heard mixed reviews on what causes it, but I
know how to fix it.

Speaker 3 (35:06):
From what I understood.
Is that so?
Yes, Josh, like I mentionedearlier, we do produce
essentially every single SRAMcomponent.
Dane is right.
Yes, the one subcomponent thatwe did not manufacture in-house.
In those breaks Was the masterpiston for guides.

(35:27):
They were purchased fromvendors in nearby town.
Everything gets made on thesame mic.

Speaker 2 (35:33):
It's just a weird material that they wouldn't
normally.

Speaker 3 (35:35):
No, so it's the same material.
It's the same delrin material.
From what I understood, is thatbasically just the starting
dimension was slightly out ofspec, meaning when it got to its
upper ranges of thermalexpansion then it was out of
spec.
Yeah, so had it been, you know,at 100, the right spec that we

(35:56):
had requested.
It was designed to ideallyaccommodate for that kind of
expansion.
But yeah, obviously, if you'restarting out at an overall
bigger resting diameter, whenthat expands past that, then
yeah, so all you had to do isput an ice cube on it to get it
to work.

Speaker 1 (36:10):
That's true.

Speaker 2 (36:11):
Ironic.
Yes, that actually is true.

Speaker 1 (36:15):
I just made that straight up.
No, I made that up, but itmakes sense Genuinely.

Speaker 3 (36:19):
I'll tell an antidote .
This was when I was working atthe pros, closet actually 2016.
So guys were like fresh out, Iwas a longtime Shimano rider,
you know kind of just becauselike it's what was in bike shops
, it's what would work.

Speaker 2 (36:34):
They go through cycles too.

Speaker 3 (36:37):
Well, I mean, like the, the xt group of of 2016,
like the 11 speed what gen wasthat like?

Speaker 2 (36:42):
uh, shit, I don't know because they have numbers
and so it's like I don't evenknow if they were by strand
because it's easier to keeptrack of all the product tiers.
And names there is that there'sso many 81, 30, 81, 20 yeah,
yeah 8 000.
Were they at 800?
I'm not sure.

Speaker 3 (36:58):
Yeah, it was whatever preceded the 8000 group, where
it got like yeah, the glossyfinish, you know with the silver
brakes.
Yep, yep, yep.
I lost it after those.
So, yeah, that's what I rodefor a long time and yeah, I was
working at the Pro's Closet inBoulder summer of 2016.
I bought my first all SRAM bikeum, sram GX.
Um, that was the year thatEagle came out.

(37:18):
Uh, so sorry, not GX.
Um, it was XO, cause it wasjust that at launch.
Uh, xo Eagle.
Um, you know, pike Monarch,reverb um and guide RSC brakes.
I was like sick, my first fullSRAM sweep and a first ride that

(37:38):
we go out like little littlecompany launch ride.
Go to left hand canyon it'smiddle of the summer, so it is
pretty hot.
Bike's been on the back of thecar on the drive there and, uh,
you know, climb up you know, notusing the brakes, then no
problem.
Yeah, do the 1200 foot asskicker of left hand canyon or
whatever it is.
And uh yeah, immediately when Istart the descent, the first
time I pull my brake levers.
They just you know stay in.

Speaker 2 (38:00):
Yeah, I mean.

Speaker 3 (38:01):
I come to a stop and then my brake levers will not
release.
I can't even push my bike, thewheels won't spin.
Yeah, oh, no yeah, the failuremode of these brakes being full
brake on makes it for?
yeah, so I carry my bike on myshoulder down to the Creek
crossing that we're at and dipit in the Creek and flip my bike
upside down so the lever bodiessit in the cool running water

(38:25):
for about, you know, fiveminutes or so and I got through
the rest of the ride.
Um, got back to work after thatand immediately took the guides
off and put those XTs back on.
Yeah, and then the very nextsummer was when I was then
working at sram, uh and thencovering and replacing the uh
the guide levers you were theguy that everybody talked to on
the phone yeah and you're likehere's some new ones yeah

(38:46):
exactly I got we.

Speaker 2 (38:47):
We would get a box of them, uh, just to change out
for people.

Speaker 1 (38:50):
So there was no delay yeah because, just for a
warranty.

Speaker 2 (38:54):
Yeah because one of the things that happened was
SRAM recognized there was aproblem and they just tried to
fix it as fast as possible.
But we saw it more in thedesert, Just because of the heat
.

Speaker 1 (39:05):
It's just the heat.

Speaker 2 (39:06):
But until we really knew what was going on, we would
have somebody come in and belike, yeah, my brakes don't work
.
And we're like, great, we'dwrite them up at the register
and get them a ticket and we'droll it into the back and put it
into the back until the nextday when we work on it.
And then the tech would get itand he's like what's wrong with
the brakes?
They work great, because it hadcooled off inside.
And it took us a while beforewe realized what was going on,

(39:29):
and then we started using ahairdryer to test them, and so
then you could get the heat upinside the shop and see if they
were sticking.

Speaker 1 (39:36):
Oh, interesting.
So did you guys have recourseagainst the supplier?

Speaker 3 (39:40):
You know.
Actually I'm not really surewhat happened there.
That's probably some deepknowledge there.

Speaker 1 (39:44):
Yeah, that is.
I'm going to keep asking thedeep knowledge questions.
That can't help it.

Speaker 2 (39:47):
Well, I'm just imagining there's like one
lawyer that knows actually whathappened.
Yeah, yeah exactly.

Speaker 3 (39:57):
I would definitely put my foot in my mouth, but I
will say, like one of the reallyinteresting like considerations
of doing business in Taiwan isthat you really cannot burn
bridges like that, Even even ifwe, you know, had recourse with
them.

Speaker 1 (40:04):
like the relationships are more important
.
Exactly, it's such.
It's such a dollars you'd getback.

Speaker 3 (40:09):
Yeah, it's such a small pool over there, like I
was saying, like everythingbasically gets manufactured in
the same, like you know, squaremile in this industrial section
of um uh, taichung, um.
So yeah, I mean sure you couldgo after them, but you know,
ultimately they know everybodyelse that owns all the other
factories and whatnot.
And, like you know I mentioned,sram is in the unique position

(40:31):
of owning most of itsmanufacturing, so we don't
really have to worry about thatas much.
But you know, even just keepingface in in businesses is huge
in Taiwan, china especially,like I mean yeah it's like it's,
it's an honor culture.
So anything perceived as youknow, a slight or offense like
can can actually yeah, it canhave big business implications.

(40:52):
Like, um, do you guys know?
Um, uh, rodeo labs out inDenver Uh, they do these really
cool.
Like uh, bespoke gravel bikesWell, not really bespoke anymore
, it's almost like productionlevel.
Um shout out Steve If helistens to this.

Speaker 1 (41:07):
Yeah, Um but, send it to him, yeah, and he's got he's
.

Speaker 3 (41:11):
He's got a really good article about um, you know
they, they do um their framemanufacturing overseas, um, and
he had a really good blurb about, like you know, kind of just
like hounding not like hounding,just like you know kind of
prodding one of his likesuppliers just like, hey, you
kind of like left us, you know,hanging on this Um, like what,
what can I do better to like inthe future?

(41:33):
Like you know really pragmaticresponse to it.
Uh, and it turned into, youknow, basically this whole like
kind of like you know, k-popdrama kind of story thing, like,
where they, you know theirresponse was like well, we're
just never going to make framesfor you again.
He's like what?

Speaker 1 (41:49):
I just, I just need the four frames that are on
order, yeah exactly yeah, andthe story has a happy ending.

Speaker 2 (41:58):
He, I think he reconciles with that vendor but
he's just like wow, I've hadcustomers like that that I.
I kind of wish they'd send me a, an email that says hey man, uh
, what did I do?

Speaker 1 (42:10):
All right, so, um, I'm going to take us on a little
.
We're going to come back towhat he thinks the best product
is Cause.

Speaker 2 (42:15):
the next is to find out the best.

Speaker 1 (42:16):
I'm using a Rock Shack product right now that I'm
just fucking in love with, andso I'm going to break form.

Speaker 3 (42:21):
I'm going to guess.
Okay, guess, it's the ReverbAxis, nope.

Speaker 1 (42:24):
Nope, take another guess.
Nope, dane installed it in oneof my products something that
came out recently, the Charger 3my products, something that
came out recently, the charger3.1 damper that's exactly it
with buttercups as well.

Speaker 2 (42:41):
Yeah, I told you, the buttercups are.

Speaker 1 (42:42):
Oh my god, dude, I had a baseline zeb on my rock
shot or on my rocky uh e-bikeyeah uh, power play altitude,
right, yeah, yeah, and uh, danehad me take it off to try
another shock, which or anotherfork, which which was good.

Speaker 2 (42:54):
Yeah, when it worked, I had some problems with it and
uh, by the way, that's on mybike right now and I love it.
Yeah, I'm sure you do.

Speaker 1 (43:02):
It's completely.
It's just because you're fat.

Speaker 2 (43:04):
That's what it is.
It's totally.
It probably is.
No, it's not.
You something happened,something changed?
Yeah, because I just changedthe settings.
I even told the guys when you,when you see the guys next, you
can ask them.
So I was like what the hell didhe do to this?

Speaker 1 (43:21):
you did it no, I didn't touch that.
I'm not even gonna name the.

Speaker 2 (43:24):
I think maddie did you get your?
Own recommendation set up on atrailhead no, uh, oh, this was,
this, wasn't a rock shockproduct.
The one we're bantering aboutis it doesn't matter different
product.

Speaker 1 (43:34):
We won't, we won't name it.
So meanwhile I had that on mybike and I had this kind of
baseline Zeb and I'm like andthen I saw all the stuff about
the 3.1 and I'm like, oh, andDane's like dude and buttercups
and I'm like, alright, dude,order it.
So I had him install it on my.
So I made my baseline Zeb anultimate basically.
Holy shit, an ultimate.

(43:58):
Basically, yeah, holy shit,yeah, much different whole.

Speaker 2 (43:59):
I'm like I'm selling, I'm selling everything and
buying this one for all my books.
Yeah, I just did another one.
There's another lyric that'scoming in and I'm doing the same
thing oh my god, dude, just the, uh, the full 3.1 assembly.

Speaker 3 (44:07):
Are you doing just the drop in into a charger three
?
No, it doesn't have buttercups,so it's so you're doing the
full assembly so help me out outwith that Cause.

Speaker 2 (44:15):
There is the.
It's a lyric, but it's got ahigh speed and low speed charger
.
So I think it's a three.
Oh, is that right?

Speaker 3 (44:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (44:22):
And then but it doesn't have buttercups, so it's
a select plus, and so you can'tjust stick buttercups on the
end of that.

Speaker 3 (44:30):
Uh, no, we don't have you full damper assembly and
air spring assembly?

Speaker 2 (44:34):
Yeah, yeah, so they were changing the travel already
and I'm like I'll get you thebuttercups and they're like okay
, and I'm like, but it's onlyhalf the story.

Speaker 3 (44:43):
Like it's only half the story and you're not going
to get the whole benefit.

Speaker 2 (44:48):
Yeah, and so I'm like I think you know, and cause he
was asking me, he me on the rearshock, uh, it's a super deluxe,
uh select about maybe puttingit as an ultimate, and so that's
one of the calls that I made toyou guys about that new um, you
can now take the rear shocks,the rock shocks and upgrade the
damper, the reservoir, body,reservoir.
So these are the ones with aseparate reservoir, and you can

(45:09):
convert them into essentiallyultimates um, which is much more
cost effective than buying anew rear shock.
So and that's really cool thatthat modulation is is something
that I really push for, because,as a dealer, it allows me to
stock one product and modify abunch of different other
products, which is really cool.

Speaker 1 (45:29):
Well, I'll tell you what if you're a heavy dude on a
heavy bike, which is what I'm,which is what that is yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:34):
That setup is yeah, that.

Speaker 1 (45:36):
Zeb with that.
3.1 in the buttercups isfucking awesome.

Speaker 2 (45:40):
Yeah, I think I've said on this podcast a couple of
times, the new uh rock shockstuff, the buttercups
essentially you know, anythingwith buttercups is just such a
game changer for them.
It's really moved them up somany places than they used to be
and it's always been goodproduct.
But I've been a DVO fan becauseof the suppleness and now
there's a diehard, like seriouscompetitor to that that I am.

(46:04):
Two of my bikes are RockShoxnow, so, and that's saying a lot
, uh, now I'll tell you, the vanhas DVO on one side and
RockShox on the other.

Speaker 1 (46:11):
So I just depends on how I park it.

Speaker 2 (46:14):
So all right, so I just depends on how I park it.

Speaker 1 (46:17):
So all right, so I just took it.
I just had to break form andgive you guys some kudos on
something I'm really enjoying.
So, from your perspective,what's the most popular?

Speaker 3 (46:26):
product.
What can't you shut up about?
I guess a quick trivia onbuttercups.
You know where the inspirationfor that technology came from.

Speaker 2 (46:32):
Engine mounts no.
I mean it's an engine mount,yeah, yeah.
So basically, so don't know.

Speaker 3 (46:39):
Uh, but specifically a chainsaw grips.

Speaker 2 (46:41):
No way, oh wow, no shit.

Speaker 3 (46:43):
Uh, as I've heard it um some rock shocks.
Uh product folk were um.
You know there's there's alsoan office up in uh Vancouver and
Columbia another technicalsupport office there.
Uh and also there's some, uh,some brand folks that live out
there and they're reallyobviously involved in the
community and whatnot.
Um, but yeah, like talking tosome like big time, you know
timber folks, loggers, yeah,trail builders.

(47:05):
you know the people that you runinto on the Seymour mountain,
but uh yeah you know, someonesaw it like oh you know, they're
basically isolating the gripfrom the rest of the chainsaw
body with this kind of you know,elastomer plastic or rubber.

Speaker 2 (47:23):
Yeah, we applied that to lower legs.
Yeah, so basically the lowersare mounted to one piece and the
damper and the air shaft aremounted to another and the air
shaft are mounted to another andthere's basically a.
You know it's not going to comeapart, but there's basically

(47:43):
rubber bumpers on either side,so that you get this extra level
of suppleness that comes fromthat.

Speaker 3 (47:47):
Yeah, what they're really tailored for, too, is
like the high-frequency kind ofvibration of a fork.
You know, it's not like a shockabsorber.
Like it still translates a lotof the force that you get
through yep, an axle and lowerlegs yeah it's specifically that
kind of like really highfrequency stuff that just like
contributes to fatigue over along day.

Speaker 1 (48:08):
It's worth noting that I'm running rev grips on
that bike as well I got likedouble, double damping or
something triple damping.

Speaker 2 (48:13):
I want to try those out just to see that, plus some
fast flex bars?

Speaker 3 (48:17):
I don't have any.
Is that the ones with the pivotin them?
Yeah, you won't even be able tofeel the trail yeah, it's,
they're like suspended bars,yeah I'm sure there's a max
weight limit on those things.

Speaker 2 (48:26):
I don't know, man downhillers use them, so I think
you could, oh, maybe but yeah,that's uh favorite products,
best products um yeah, most most, most, yeah, like what you
can't stop talking about orcouldn't Like really, like it
doesn't have to be current, youdon't have to go with just
current.
He's going to say transmission.
Well, that's why I'm saying I'mjust not.
I don't want to corral you intothe latest and greatest because

(48:48):
that's your job all the time,but what is it that you think
made?

Speaker 3 (48:58):
Well, I'll close out on guides because like guide was
also, you know, one of thetoughest moments in, yeah, you
know, sram's recent history.
Yeah, and, and that was like Isaid, you know, uh, I had come
from being a shimano break guyfor a long time, um, and then I,
I mean the guide break is whatmade me finally appreciate our
breaks and like kind of thedifference in and feel and
approach to just you know, I'mglad you care.

Speaker 1 (49:14):
I'm glad you clarified because I didn't
realize that the guides actuallyfixed the juicy elixir problems
.

Speaker 2 (49:20):
Guides still have a problem.
They still used to have aproblem, but now that it's fixed
, it was basically amanufacturing flaw, you know, or
tolerance issue.

Speaker 3 (49:31):
On one piece.
On one piece.
The rest of the brake was solid.

Speaker 1 (49:34):
But that's not on anything new that we can buy now
.
Yeah, the rest of the brake wassolid, but that's not anything
new that we can buy now.

Speaker 2 (49:38):
Yeah, that's not old stuff.
No, even the new G2s and stufflike that.

Speaker 3 (49:39):
Yeah, all of our current dot brakes still
basically follow the same designof the guide, so the design was
solid.
It was a great brake, justunfortunately plagued by that
one, just the manufacturing.

Speaker 1 (49:49):
It was bad luck.
I just want to make sure forour listeners to understand that
, that that that manufacturingissue has been resolved.

Speaker 3 (49:54):
Yes, as of I mean 2018.
And to give you a clue?

Speaker 2 (49:58):
I fixed those.
I have so many bikes withguides on them from that era and
I would fix them because whatJimmy was saying is the
tolerance of that piston was outand when it would heat up it
would bind inside.
It would basically be tallerthan the seals.

Speaker 1 (50:13):
So were you grinding them down or something?

Speaker 2 (50:14):
Yeah, I put them on a lathe and I take them down and
I know he's shaking his headlike god damn it.
Why are you doing that?
But I'm I'm running thosebrakes today.
They're on my downhill bike.
I run guides on my downhillbike and they are great brakes.

Speaker 3 (50:27):
Like I couldn't give them up the only disclaimer
there for the average joe isthat yeah if you run it down too
much, then you have not enoughdiameter and then you're gonna
yeah, to have great bite paths.
Yeah, but Dane's a professional.

Speaker 2 (50:37):
Don't do what Dane does.
I am a professional.

Speaker 3 (50:39):
Do as he says, not as he does.

Speaker 2 (50:41):
Yes, I am a professional and honestly the
right way.
So, remember, I was a teammechanic, so this is a fix that
we would do on a Friday before arace on Saturday.
The real fix is you can justget the new pistons.

Speaker 3 (50:55):
Or the real fix is you can just get the new pistons
or a new lever assembly.
That's what we eventually gotto just swap.
It's so easy to swap a leverassembly on SRAM brakes.

Speaker 2 (51:04):
They would send us boxes of levers because it's
literally, you just basicallyput a new, you know?
Crush olive and barb on andthen pop it on and do a quick
bleed.
You didn't even have to do afull bleed, honestly, wow.
And then it was done and so itwas super easy and that's how
they helped people, you know,through that problem.
But we had some friday race onsaturday issues and we came up
with a fix and I had I have twoor three sets of those brakes.

(51:28):
They're still rocking andthey're great.
So, um, the new pistons if youget the rebuild kits are
intolerance yeah, so we haven'thad any problems with any of the
new stuff within the toleranceyeah, it's, it's been within the
tolerance not intolerant.

Speaker 1 (51:42):
They're totally intolerant, but uh yeah resolved
and contained for for manyyears now.

Speaker 3 (51:48):
So yeah, yeah, but uh , yeah, I mean that doubles as
kind of like one of the likequote-unquote worst and best
products.

Speaker 2 (51:55):
Um, because, yeah, like I said, that was like I
mean caused a lot of problem butfunction when they were working
great.
They were better than prettymuch on them everything on the
market.

Speaker 3 (52:04):
And that's, and that's what I kind of had to
commit to, to like learningmyself, cause I mean, I'll be
honest that first summer, takingall those calls, I was like I
should just quit this job.
I mean that's gotta be rough.

Speaker 1 (52:20):
I mean every day it was nearly a hundred phone calls
of yeah, I've got these guidesand they don't work and I'm just
like, I'm so sorry You're likeyou've got a guide with a
problem.
Press three, that's how it.

Speaker 3 (52:28):
That's how it ran for for a while.
But I mean just being firsthand, like you know, obviously there
were some very upset people,and for good reason, but like
for the most part, like when wefinally got, you know, the fix
rolling and everybody could, youknow, communicate.
It, like you know, went a longway when shops were like, hey,
you know, this, that was yeah weknow what's going on.

Speaker 2 (52:49):
Just how do we fix it ?
Yeah, so yeah.
And that you know that kind ofshaped my view of both the break
and SR sram yeah well, you know, yeah, we're not perfect, but
there's something about takingcare of your, your customers
yeah, it's, it's important andthe bike industry has kind of
has a reputation of kind oftesting on the customers some
some companies are better thanothers, for sure.

(53:10):
I mean.
I remember canondales in theback in the day.
They'd be like oh, that's notworking, we're just going to
change it and like and that wasa thing.

Speaker 3 (53:17):
I mean, we're just such a small industry.
Like we don't always have theresources to.
Yeah, like like you said before, it's not like anybody is
deliberately trying to release aproduct that isn't done.
It's just that they just testedas much as we can within one
finite window, to everything wecan imagine.
And then there's the real world.

Speaker 2 (53:33):
Oh, by the way, josh, the real world.
Oh, by the way, josh, and Idiscussed this on the last
podcast which will come outafter we record this.

Speaker 1 (53:40):
One can't keep it straight.

Speaker 2 (53:41):
I need to chart out of our this is like two episodes
ago listeners but uh, we areopen to uh creating and hosting
a a uh research and developmentuh facility here in tucson, help
us break stuff.
Yes, so not only break stuff,but um honestly, that's that you
know.
Gm has a desert proving groundfor that reason, and so I do see

(54:01):
some product releases by SRAMout in the desert here.

Speaker 1 (54:04):
Yeah.
And you'll see them.
There's a few testers.
We can definitely test pedalstrikes here.

Speaker 2 (54:08):
Oh my God, yes, yeah, and heat and extreme heat.

Speaker 3 (54:11):
Yeah, oh my God Guys, I forgot one of our brands.

Speaker 1 (54:14):
Oh Jesus, What'd you forget?
Time Pedals.

Speaker 2 (54:16):
Oh Time Pedals, oh wow.

Speaker 1 (54:17):
Look at that.

Speaker 3 (54:18):
Fired.

Speaker 2 (54:19):
I was just thinking about that, and those are my
favorite pedals.

Speaker 3 (54:22):
I rode time even before I worked at SRAM.

Speaker 1 (54:24):
I want to cut this out and paste it right when you
were listing all the brands yeah, there you go, he won't do that
.
I probably will, just becauseyou said, I won't.

Speaker 3 (54:34):
But yeah, I would say the product that I can't shut
up about and it's going to makeme sound like such a shill
because it is probably the mostpremium product we make.
It's the Reverbaxis.
Oh yes, really, I will never goback to a cabled dropper.
I mean just install servicealone.

(54:55):
And just like the immediatefeel of a wireless remote to a
cable.
I'm so spoiled when I do ride amechanical dropper lever.
I'm like my thumb.
I know so much effort.

Speaker 2 (55:07):
I feel like you should have changed the name of
it.

Speaker 3 (55:10):
You just reverb in general yeah.

Speaker 2 (55:12):
When that wireless came out, they should have
called it a different name.

Speaker 3 (55:16):
Well, you know, the thing is it is a reverb.

Speaker 2 (55:18):
I understand that but here's why.
There's a again.
Back when droppers came out,there was only one good one and
it was the reverb, and everybike had it.
So there was a billion of themout there and they had some
failures, you know, and they hadsome design problems that they
went through.
Another tough one, and theyalso use like a hydraulic

(55:38):
actuator instead of a cable andall of those stigmas are stuck
to it and it is not that productanymore.
It is a totally differentproduct and it performs so much
better than what people thinkthe reverb name has Does that
make sense.

Speaker 3 (55:53):
I mean you definitely have a point.
I mean that is the reason thatwe ultimately moved away from
the Avid branding.
That's why the guide naming?

Speaker 1 (55:59):
eventually changed to G2.
Yep, yeah.

Speaker 3 (56:02):
Again, like not the only reason why, but like those
are definitely.

Speaker 2 (56:05):
It has a side effect of getting rid of some of the
stigma.

Speaker 3 (56:08):
Yeah, and Reverb again.
That was another product thathad some iffy reception early on
.

Speaker 2 (56:14):
Bumpy road of research and development.
And it's crazy because, again,I've been around and using all
these products during this andback when reverbs were around,
there was nobody making a gooddropper.
I mean, it was the bestsmoothest, that was 2010.

Speaker 3 (56:30):
Yeah, that's when the first reverb came.

Speaker 2 (56:32):
I have a great my one of my vintage products on the
wall is going to be a gravitydropper.
You know creaky mess of adropper with a pin.

Speaker 3 (56:41):
And that was like at the same time era.

Speaker 2 (56:43):
It was the same time as the reverb, and the reverb
was so much better.

Speaker 3 (56:48):
But it was expensive.

Speaker 2 (56:48):
Yeah, but there has been a period of time where
reverb didn't really change toomuch.
They got rid of some of theproblems kind of late, and so
everybody else came out withpretty good working stuff.

Speaker 3 (57:00):
Yeah so.

Speaker 1 (57:01):
I haven't tried a reverb yet, because I can't
afford it.

Speaker 2 (57:06):
Well, especially the access.
That is the complicating factor.

Speaker 1 (57:11):
So you guys do anything about that.
Do we have anything to lookforward to?

Speaker 3 (57:14):
Well, I mean the current reverb axis is coming up
on nearly five years old, so Imean product what's the product
life cycle at tram?

Speaker 2 (57:21):
do they have like a set one, or is it just kind of
go?

Speaker 3 (57:24):
it's not set um.
I I would say you know, like alot of the bike.
Well, I guess more on thecomponent side, like I you know,
oem frame manufacturers run onlike a one to two year cycle
yeah, I of just color changesand stuff, I feel like hard
parts, components are usuallycloser to three to five year
cycle.

Speaker 1 (57:41):
Yeah, yeah, you know, unless you're Shimano, and then
it's, it's measured in decades.
Yeah Right, unless it's Shimano, saint and then, it's measured
in um, yeah, centuries.

Speaker 2 (57:51):
Yeah, it's the century Saint, yeah.

Speaker 1 (57:58):
The different, the century saint, yeah, the
different monarchies that itoutlasted.
Oh my god, bashar asad is gone.
Yeah, he's gone, they're stillthe saint did outlast the syrian
regime.
Oh my god this is now apolitics podcast no, no, no
politics nope

Speaker 3 (58:15):
but yeah, I mean, if, if that, you know, tells you
anything, the writing's kind ofon the wall there.
We're definitely butting upagainst that five-year window.
Um, but yeah, the reverb axishas been a really solid product
and you know it is just, it isthat b1 generation reverb, just
essentially eliminating thathydraulic remote, which was the
issue for again another thingthat I intimately supported and

(58:37):
troubleshot.

Speaker 2 (58:39):
It's a C1, right, because it's got the purge valve
.

Speaker 3 (58:42):
No, so it is the B1 reverb.
It just had the vent valveadded as well, so the C1 is
actually a completely differentdesign from the reverb axis.

Speaker 2 (58:50):
I mean, I know my kits are different, but I mean
they all look roughly the samein size.

Speaker 1 (58:58):
So what would it cost me to get into?

Speaker 2 (58:59):
a Reverb Access MSRP right now $800?

Speaker 3 (59:00):
$850?
Yes, it's dropped down from$899 to, I think, $699.

Speaker 2 (59:06):
It's $699 now because it doesn't come with a remote.

Speaker 3 (59:09):
Yes, it's $699 MSRP for post alone, and then you
have to pair it with your AccessControl of Choice.

Speaker 2 (59:17):
Yes, and so the key is that there's different
remotes and ways to pair it,because they now have a gravel
access dropper, uh, so you canget a gravel version.
So you know you don't want itto come with a lever.

Speaker 3 (59:29):
That you don't need that, you don't need yeah, uh,
so they split it up so yeah, youcan operate a reverb access
post with any access so is itlike 100 bucks for the
controller?

Speaker 1 (59:38):
uh, it's 150 for a pod basic, so 850 to get into a
reverb, yeah and you can.

Speaker 2 (59:45):
So here's the crazy thing is you can get like uh,
the what is it?
Access to button pod instead ofthe rock shock reverb lever,
which is like a one button, andthen you can assign buttons on
the access app, which we haven'ttalked about, which we need to
talk about.
Yeah, um, just in general, allof the access stuff you know,

(01:00:07):
because we have we have jimmyhere and we need to talk about
that stuff um, but the uh, um,we're both.
All of us are looking at theclock right now going.

Speaker 3 (01:00:15):
It's been an hour.

Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
We're gonna have to do two of these you know, just
to get it all in, but.
But basically they split it upbecause you could have it on a
road bike and it may have abuilt-in lever in your shifter,
or you could have it on amountain bike with one type of
lever or a mountain bike withanother lever.
You can run two by.

Speaker 3 (01:00:33):
Uh, yeah, I mean, yeah, we're talking about this,
just like you know, previously,with mechanical drivetrains,
like there were still a lot ofpeople interested in running a
mix of road levers with mountain, yeah, drivetrain, yep, and
basically, what axis does I mean?
This is another point towardsyou, josh is eliminate that
consideration of oh, is thisgoing to work with this shifter?

Speaker 1 (01:00:51):
yeah every axis doesn't have to worry about the
pull ratio.

Speaker 3 (01:00:54):
Exactly, it's a button, yeah and it does
whatever I mean.
So even just look at, uh, youknow 13 speed yeah, we had
explore release earlier inaugust.
That's the same shifter wedon't need any more buttons.
We don't need any more pauls.

Speaker 2 (01:01:06):
The shifter does as many shifts as the derailleur
does so you can change from 12to 13 by just by pairing to the
cassette and derailleur, andthat's it because all all the
buttons doing is sending asignal to the thing, whether it
it's derailleur or dropper andsays do your thing.

Speaker 1 (01:01:21):
Yep, exactly it doesn't care about pull ratios
or any of that stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:01:26):
Exactly, yeah, which is really nice.
I always say it's a language,so you just assign the language,
and then it speaks Greek to thefront derailleur, and it speaks
French to the rear derailleur,and then that way they don't
communicate, they don't misscommunicate.

Speaker 1 (01:01:38):
Je ne parle pas français, yeah yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:40):
And if you want to switch them?
You just make one button speakFrench and the other buttons
speak Greek.

Speaker 1 (01:01:44):
That's awesome, just like my girlfriends.

Speaker 3 (01:01:46):
Yep, exactly it could be a rap lyric, just kidding,
but yeah, to that same point.
Josh, like that's another thingI think in our corner is just
like the whole access ecosystemmeans that you can basically
take any of our access enabledcomponents and they will work
together.

Speaker 2 (01:02:02):
yeah that's cool, it's it.
And I gotta tell you from theyou know our shop experience.
The reverb owners are probablythe the happiest zealots yeah,
they really love that post, andit's.
I have one issue when I repairthem that Troy taught me to fix
too, and since he taught me that, we fix them in-house, which is

(01:02:23):
great, so when they needservice, there's no issues.
Not a common problem, justsomething that comes up
occasionally.
It's actually really common andit's a pain in the ass, but it
happens to be because of thevent valve.
What is the problem?

Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
What are the users experience?

Speaker 2 (01:02:39):
so when, when you have these posts, you may have
some air migrate onto the otherside of the the piston and enter
the oil, which causes, like aspring effect or a suspensioning
is what we call it.
Okay, um, there's a vent valvethat helps purge that air uh out
and basically moves it around.
But you have kind of a certainamount of times that you can do

(01:02:59):
this and sometimes the, the ifp,which is inside the post, gets
stuck up near the top way out ofthe way where you can't get it
out, and when we have to pullthat out, they have to.
A pretty retarded way ofpulling it out that works, uh,
but you use a bunch of zip tiesit's kind of dumb uh, it's in
the service manual it's totally.
You're like 35 zip ties and youjust shove them in there.

(01:03:20):
It's the weirdest thing.

Speaker 1 (01:03:23):
It is so funny but um when it's like how I get grips
on.
It's weird.

Speaker 2 (01:03:27):
Yeah, it's so weird um, but it's, he's right, it's.
It's like you'll see a pictureof some guy stuffing a bunch of
zip ties in the reaver but, um,the ifp can get stuck so far up
there that the zip ties won'tget under it to pull it out.
Because what they're trying todo is you're pulling out a very
sensitive piece of rubber thatgets kind of stuck, you know,
because it's rubber and you'retrying not to scratch the inside

(01:03:48):
, because if a scratch happens,it can bypass air or oil past,
and so you have to be careful.
One of the reasons that peoplebring reverbs here to get them
serviced is because it's not asuper easy, user-friendly.

Speaker 3 (01:04:02):
It is probably the most service-intensive component
.

Speaker 2 (01:04:06):
Yeah and so, but that one problem, the first couple
that I ran into.
I had no idea what to do and Ihad to send them to RockShox.
And you know RockShox will takecare of people and they're
awesome.
But it's a time, no matter what, even if you're the fastest, if
you, even if you're not, a twodays just shipping just shipping
.
Time is like a week basically atleast yeah, and then you have
in in time and, and we're knownfor being couple day turnaround,

(01:04:30):
and so, um, troy, uh, lafferty,laffey, yeah, at Colorado
Springs, awesome Loves LandCruisers.
Yep, no, not Land Cruisers.

Speaker 3 (01:04:41):
He's going to be mad.
Land Rovers, land Rovers.
Yeah, he'll be so mad that Isaid that.

Speaker 2 (01:04:45):
He loves Land Rovers.
He taught me a trick to getthem out, and man, it works
awesome this is the spoke.
Yep, yep, yeah, and so now wecan replace the IFP and service
it and get it running.
I just did one a couple of daysago, so Josh, that's.

Speaker 3 (01:05:01):
That's the last thing I'll add here.
Sram versus Shimano.

Speaker 2 (01:05:05):
Yes, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:05:06):
Who at Shimano can you call you?

Speaker 2 (01:05:08):
know.
I will tell you that at Shimanowe do have good tech guys and
usually it's trying to have agreat tech.
They do, they do and they do agreat job, and usually it's
compatibilities that we'retrying to figure out with them.
But they just recently startedletting us service a little bit
of their brakes Not a whole lot,they have.
Their systems are kind of Dotheir brakes actually need

(01:05:30):
service?

Speaker 1 (01:05:31):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:05:33):
Contrary to rider belief.
Yeah, yeah, so and so there's abunch of issues that will come
up that aren't serviceable.
They do a good job, but nobodyhas the kind of ability for us
to work on this product in theshop like SRAM, and nobody
supports the bike shop as muchas SRAM.
I don't want to disparageShimano because they do a good

(01:05:54):
job.
They really do.
If I call my rep.

Speaker 3 (01:05:56):
They just have a different approach.

Speaker 2 (01:06:01):
Yeah, some of their ecosystems are just closed and
they're not really up for repair.
Like you don't take apart ashimano shifter, like you don't,
you know it's gonna not go backtogether.
So it won't, and we've knownthat for years.
And there's mechanics thatwe'll try and there's mechanics
that will be meticulous enoughto maybe get it back together at
a business sense.

Speaker 1 (01:06:20):
You know, I think I've taken apart both SRAM and
Shimano and I've had much bettersuccess getting the SRAM.

Speaker 2 (01:06:26):
Yeah, there's like seven parts in a SRAM and and,
and they make them serviceableand they tell you that they're
serviceable.
You don't have to go on thedark web to find out about it
and yeah, so there's.
There's a lot moreserviceability in the SRAM stuff
that's kind of built in.
Uh, and I know Chris Manny, Ican shout out, manny.
I can hear him in my ear goingbecause you don't need to.

(01:06:47):
You know like I could totallyhear Chris Manny, like I know
what he'd say.
You know, but when you're amechanic, you you don't want to
hear, uh, that's just send thatback.

Speaker 1 (01:06:58):
You know, you don't want to hear that you want to
fix it like mechanics love tofix stuff and it's it takes away
our love when we have to sendsomething back so this is this
has been worth it, because theserviceability thing was never
something like when you and Italked about it.
We didn't bring that up yeahjust didn't come to the
conversation and I definitelycan relate to that yeah like
personal personally relate to,so that's interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:07:18):
Yeah, it's cool stuff , so we got to do another
episode with him.
I think so, because we didn'ttalk about we didn't talk about
flight attendants, we didn'ttalk about the mavens.
We didn't talk about mavens.
Can I ask a maven question?
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:07:31):
Okay, so you switched to mineral oil?
Yes, are we going in future andother SRAM breaking products?

Speaker 3 (01:07:37):
We're always working on new stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:07:43):
That's a good answer.

Speaker 3 (01:07:44):
Thank you, Captain.
Obvious, that's a goodnon-answer.
He's like I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:07:51):
I mean you think we made a specific fluid for just
one break?
Yeah, that would be stupid.

Speaker 2 (01:07:56):
All right.
You heard it here first Mineraloil coming on all future SRAM
breaks.
Is that all you want to knowabout the mavens?
That's it.
You're like like one of thebiggest changes in their brake
system ever and you're likemineral oil, using mineral oil
it's not the reason they havethe db8s, by the way huh, they
have the db8s, our mineral toolyeah, those came out a while

(01:08:17):
before.

Speaker 1 (01:08:17):
Yeah, oh shit, I didn't know that and they're
inexpensive.

Speaker 2 (01:08:20):
You should be on them .

Speaker 3 (01:08:21):
I will preach my point on other products I can't
stop talking about, and it isMavens, because it is just on my
personal bike and I loved codes.
I had no issues with codes.
After learning and lovingMavens, I can't go back between
bikes.

Speaker 2 (01:08:35):
I got to tell you not between bikes.
I gotta tell you, you know, notto keep dragging this out,
because our listeners I thinkour listeners would want to know
this, because this is somethingthat comes up in the shop and I
gotta ask you about it becauseI have a theory brakes are
always a very, very touchysubject too.
Yeah, like, yeah, they kind ofget stopped pun intended.
Yes, yeah, I couldn't comeanyway, so, uh, so we're

(01:08:56):
experiencing a lot of bikescoming with codes and customers
are saying things like theydon't stop.
I can't stop, and it is blowingmy mind because the code is one
of the more powerful brakes onthe market and I'm trying to
figure out what's going on.
What is causing that reaction,and is there a level of code

(01:09:18):
that is less than what I'm usedto?

Speaker 1 (01:09:20):
I mean, they come from Shimano, where that's got
that on off.

Speaker 2 (01:09:23):
So that's my theory, my theory.
Here's my theory, not to toprompt you into an answer, but
cause I really want to know ifthere's something other than
this.
But Shimano does have like anon off but it's like a light
switch versus a dimmer.
And then when you pull aShimano, as you pull, you don't
get any more power.
It's pretty much it's on off.

Speaker 3 (01:09:42):
Yeah, whereas most of a SRAM brake power comes
towards the end of the levershift.

Speaker 2 (01:09:46):
Yeah, but you have to use a lot more finger power,
which I'm used to as adownhiller.
I'm pulling hard.
You're great with finger power.
Yeah, I can finger power likeyou wouldn't believe.
I power through my fingeringlike you wouldn't believe, but I
don't know.
Oh my God.

Speaker 3 (01:10:01):
I thought that was good.

Speaker 2 (01:10:03):
Oh my God, I was trying to get the word bang in
there, but it didn't work.

Speaker 1 (01:10:06):
That's probably good that you didn't.

Speaker 2 (01:10:09):
But, like I said earlier, I'm a light breaker.
I use guides on my downhillbike, I use two piston on my
trail bikes because I'm tryingto keep them light.
I don't use a lot of brake, Idon't brake hard, and so so my
experience is like you don'tneed all of this brake.
Why?
How would a code not give youenough brake?

(01:10:29):
So that, have you heard that?

Speaker 1 (01:10:31):
And can you attribute it to anything?

Speaker 3 (01:10:32):
Yeah, I would.
I would say the number onething when people say my brakes
don't stop is one.

Speaker 1 (01:10:42):
They're usually poorly bedded.
This is, this is my psa bedyour brakes and people.
They'll never work.

Speaker 3 (01:10:44):
Like what is bedding your brakes mean jimmy bedding
your brakes is the process ofactually transferring your brake
pad material to the brakingsurface of the rotor.

Speaker 1 (01:10:56):
So your road.
Isam's recommended process forbedding your brakes 50
repetition 50.

Speaker 2 (01:11:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:11:02):
For how long for each repetition?

Speaker 3 (01:11:05):
So basically a repetition would consist of
getting your bike up to aboutjust like trail speed and coming
to a slow, gradual and notcomplete stop, kind of a rolling
stop 50.

Speaker 1 (01:11:15):
I've always done 10.

Speaker 3 (01:11:16):
Dude.
Even 50 is arguably not enough.
And a lot of people do rely on.
Well, I'll bet it on the trail,I'll get them nice and hot on
my local segment.
Yeah, and then beyond that toois just also matching your pad
material and rotors for yourride type.
I feel like there's been a lotof hype around you know,
specifically like steel-centeredcompounds.

(01:11:37):
Just, you know, trying to beefup brakes in the biggest way you
can and it's not always thebest option for your ride.
Lookout like, especially herelike an organic pad will always
stay just ambient and warmenough and will not encounter
enough moisture to you knowwhere, versus a steel pad, um,

(01:11:57):
you know, really performs at itsbest when it's at a higher
temperature, which you're notreally ever getting your brakes
to around a lot of the localriding here.

Speaker 2 (01:12:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:12:05):
And are made to withstand yeah moisture and
debris and stuff Again, stuffthat you don't really encounter
as much in the desert.

Speaker 2 (01:12:12):
I love it when I do shit and don't even know I'm
doing it right, because I'm moreof an organic pad, mainly for
quiet.

Speaker 3 (01:12:18):
Yeah, I want quiet.

Speaker 2 (01:12:20):
Yeah, doing it right, because, uh, I'm more of an
organic pad, mainly for quiet,yeah, quiet, yeah me too.
And then, um, metal pads on mydownhill bike because I don't
want them worn out by the firstrun for a bike park bike.

Speaker 3 (01:12:26):
Yeah, absolutely, when you're doing laps and you
know you could be doing in therain yeah yeah, and then beyond
that too, like well, I mean,there's a lot to be said too
about just brake lever setup too, and our brakes definitely
favor a certain kind of setup,usually pretty far inboard yeah,
on the on the bars so pullingat the very end of them yes,
pulling at the very tip of thelever blade do you think?

Speaker 2 (01:12:47):
have you guys done any studies on how much lever?
Because, uh, there's acompetitor that I ride also.
That is in the middle betweenthe two yes, yes, yeah they have
a modulation but you don't haveto pull as hard.
And so in Shimano's I got totell you and so many people are
going to be mad at me but everybike that I get with Shimano
brakes on, I pull them offimmediately and sell them.

(01:13:08):
It's not because it's not agood, yeah.
And so if I have multiple bikesand they have different brakes,
on them.
I half the trail.
I'm trying to figure out how tobreak this is what kills me and
Lacey she's got Shimano's onone yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:13:28):
And she's got tram on the other and then we just put
pays on a third and I feel likeI'm pretty sure she's alien.

Speaker 2 (01:13:35):
I think she's coming Because you said she came from
what Safford, safford.

Speaker 1 (01:13:39):
Yeah, that's not real .
It's pretty much a foreigncountry.
It's like Mars.

Speaker 2 (01:13:43):
No, not alien like that, Like yeah, she's an alien.

Speaker 1 (01:13:46):
Like she's an extra yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:13:48):
I'm pretty sure they just took a ship, and Safford is
a ship with just some buildings.
So that's my thought, butanyway, my thought, but anyway
um no offense to our saffordcontinue but but the pull of the
lever?

Speaker 3 (01:14:00):
I my theory, like I said, is that with codes you've
got to pull and then startpulling harder for more braking
and if you're used to shimano,you pull the just the shimano
rate and then you never get tothe power yeah, and then, on top
of that, if you don't have abedded in brake system, you're
hitting that wall and thenyou're not generating the
friction so it feels like you'repulling the lever as much as

(01:14:22):
you can.
You know like it's clamped astight as it's going to be, but
then you also don't have thefriction aspect.
Yeah Cause.

Speaker 2 (01:14:28):
I'll go out in the parking lot and I'll ride the
same bike that the customer'slike.
These don't work and I'mflipping over the bars you know,
I'm not even kidding, Like thishas happened multiple times and
I'm like and we pull the brakesoff, you know, and the customer
ends up buying Shimano, and Ithink it's a style difference.
I really do so so yeah,personal preference.

Speaker 3 (01:14:47):
But again, bed your brakes.
People check it, look forhotspots.
Your brake rotor offers zerostopping power until it is bed
in, I think a lot of peoplethink of just like the clamping
mechanism of a break and don'treally take into consideration
that it's very much.

Speaker 2 (01:15:03):
Oh, just contaminate your pads and see how fast.

Speaker 1 (01:15:07):
Like it's crazy All right, so let's recap and then
we'll finish up, and I can'tbelieve I'm going to say this
publicly, but I want more SRAM,so will you come back on and
talk with us again.

Speaker 3 (01:15:18):
Yes, let's do it in the spring, there'll be.

Speaker 2 (01:15:20):
There'll be some cool stuff to talk about later on.

Speaker 1 (01:15:22):
Awesome man, I don't want to wait that long, but if
we, if we recap the stuff thatwe talked about, let me see if I
can, how I do, and then you can, you can correct me where I
missed it.
Right.
So like I challenged Jimmy tolike talk me into SRAM, he
talked.
He talked about um,specifically with the access
stuff, how everything workstogether.
I don't have to worry aboutdoes this part work with that

(01:15:42):
part.
It all works together.
The reverb is supposed to beawesome, although I got to sell
my third child to um, that'strue to buy one yeah, uh, the
mavens are great.
All future shram brakes aregoing to come out with mineral
oil, which is the key sellingpoint.

Speaker 2 (01:15:56):
Uh, just, kidding, just kidding.
Oh man, we're gonna have a talkabout.

Speaker 1 (01:15:59):
I know that's an episode alone full episode on
brake oil so I know I'm justfucking with you.

Speaker 2 (01:16:05):
I know, but yeah, what I missed man that was a
good recap, I would say top tobottom um, and that your local
bike shop likes to work on sramyeah, well, I and and we didn't
mention this, but we mentionedin different podcasts is sram,
and not that shimano hasn't donethis, but SRAM has made a big
push to be a partner with thebike shops.

(01:16:26):
They realize that the bike shopis where people go, they
congregate, they can find rides,they can find friends, they can
find advice and that issomething they find valuable.
And that is something they findvaluable and they've made an
investment into the bike shopsas far as that goes.
And the bike shops in generalrespond to that Like, hey,
thanks.

Speaker 1 (01:16:47):
I'd like to shout out to our female listeners as well
there's also a lot of singleguys working at bike shops.

Speaker 2 (01:16:51):
Oh, my God.

Speaker 1 (01:16:52):
Come on by and take your pick.
Scoop one up.

Speaker 3 (01:16:56):
I mean Shimano's done great things for the industry.

Speaker 1 (01:16:58):
You'll never hear me.
I mean, shimano has done greatthings for the industry.
You know you'll never hear mewith exception trashing any of
their products.

Speaker 3 (01:17:02):
But, um, you know, one of the big things too is
like well it's.
Cycling is just an aspect ofwhat Shimano is doing.

Speaker 2 (01:17:09):
The same things, they're doing it at their pace
and then SRAM does their paceand and they're not always the
same, and sometimes Shimanokills it.
They do Honestly, they, theycome out with something and they
just kill it.

Speaker 3 (01:17:29):
Um, sram has just lately been so much faster to
things we so we like to we weengage with, like the enthusiast
segment of this of this hobby,which is the people that are at
bike shops that, you know, likenew stuff, like to put it to its
limits and, you know, test forfuture stuff, like, yeah, we
would rather be, you know,making something and bringing

(01:17:51):
something new and hearing yourfeedback than just in our own,
you know, silo make somethingthat we think is perfect by
ourselves and I gotta tell yousomething that I'm personally
making a big change in my lifeto not pick sides, and that's
true.

Speaker 1 (01:18:05):
You're trying to do that in lots of things.

Speaker 2 (01:18:07):
Yeah, and so I have moved away from one brand in my
suspension to adopt more brands.
And you know, I'm going to dothat with my drivetrain, I'm
going to do that with otherthings to to make sure that I am
well-rounded person.

Speaker 1 (01:18:20):
As a bike shop owner, that's a good idea.

Speaker 2 (01:18:22):
Yeah, and, and I don't want to just pick
something just because you knowit's Raiders or Cowboys, you
know, I'm just you know.

Speaker 3 (01:18:29):
I don't want that either.
I like a bike shop employerthat entertains everything.

Speaker 2 (01:18:33):
If you see a bike out there with one brand in the
drive train and one brand in thebrakes, that's very common, you
know, and I think that's a goodway to approach it.
You know, and it may besurprising that it's the
opposite on one bike and theopposite on another.
You just get what's good foryou.

Speaker 1 (01:18:47):
So, jimmy, you got any final thoughts for our
listeners?

Speaker 3 (01:18:51):
Well, I feel very strongly about the brake bedding
.

Speaker 2 (01:18:56):
Have you?
Do you know any shops that usethose machines?

Speaker 3 (01:18:58):
Yes, actually I've seen a few pop up recently.

Speaker 1 (01:19:00):
They're pretty cool.

Speaker 3 (01:19:01):
I think that could be a really big game changer.

Speaker 1 (01:19:03):
Oh shit, what are you talking about?
I might have to buy one ofthose things.
Oh, you won't want to do it.
They're very expensive.

Speaker 2 (01:19:07):
I think, you could make one out of a cooler motor.

Speaker 3 (01:19:09):
I'm pretty sure you really could.

Speaker 1 (01:19:11):
It's essentially just a machine, just put a rubber
band on the brake lever and moreor less to prescribed extents
and I really do think that youknow that is something again.

Speaker 3 (01:19:22):
we could get into a whole nother episode of that,
but I think I think so Primarily.

Speaker 2 (01:19:27):
You know, if you live in an area with like bad
weather and stuff, like we don'teven want to go test ride when
it's raining not that it rainshere much, but if it's snowing
or raining you're not takingyour bike out, and so they may
be not getting bread in and thethe bike gets stuck on the floor
for sale with the thought thatwe'll do it later, and then the
customer goes and takes it homeand doesn't have the experience.
So this machine lets you do itin the shop, so you don't have

(01:19:47):
to go around the block, youdon't have mechanics like coming
back, like out of breath, likeme.

Speaker 1 (01:19:53):
So did you know?
Ben Chandler is going to go buyone of these.
Oh, yeah, absolutely, but shoutout to Ben at.

Speaker 2 (01:19:58):
Ben's bikes.
To all those people listening,this is a prime place to make
something, because right nowthere's two brands that I know
of and they're very expensiveand I this is like a.

Speaker 1 (01:20:09):
I'm cutting this out.
Okay yeah, they need to sellthis service.
We've been looking for aproduct.
We've been looking for aproduct rollers.

Speaker 2 (01:20:15):
You just take the back and put a motor on it.
That's it.
That's all you need.

Speaker 3 (01:20:18):
I'll close with an almost anti-sales pitch, which
is before you decide that youneed to go out and buy something
new, just check the settingsand set up on your current
product.

Speaker 2 (01:20:28):
Yeah, that is very good.

Speaker 1 (01:20:31):
Jimmy.
Thanks a lot, brother.
Thank you, guys I appreciate it.

Speaker 3 (01:20:33):
Yeah, we'll do it again.

Speaker 2 (01:20:39):
We could do another hour.
I know it's fun.
Yeah, it is, it's awesome, it'sfun, and then other people get
to hear it?

Speaker 3 (01:20:45):
Can you dig it?
Can you dig it, can you dig it?

All Episodes

092 - SRAM vs Shimano: Comparing Mountain Bike Components with SRAM Field Guide Jimmy Nordloh

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}092 - SRAM vs Shimano: Comparing Mountain Bike Components with SRAM Field Guide Jimmy Nordloh