096 - The Art and Science of Mountain Bike Design: Faction Bike Studio's Design Lead (Guest: Julian Richardson) - Mountain Cog

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Julian Richardson (00:23):
why don't female deer sleep properly?
Oh man, this could go like somany thing, this could go.
They don't have enough dough ohyeah, that's it.
Well, they just doze they justdoze.

Dane (The Suspension Guru) (00:34):
I almost got it, I almost got it.
You're on, you're on it I knewdough was in there somewhere.

Josh (Magellan) (00:40):
I just couldn't figure out how to fit it in so
so yeah, they just doze.
They just doze.
Nice, I like it so Wednesdaynight here on the MCP and it's
not too bad for Dane and I.
It's 7 o'clock, yep, long workdays.
You'll probably hear it in ourvoice, but it's a little later

(01:01):
for our friends over in Quebec.
Yep, and uh, like to William,welcome, uh, julian Richardson,
who is the lead designer?
Is that the right title for you, lead designer, do I?

got that right.
Lead industrial designer.
I lead the industrial designteam.
There's a bunch of us, so, uh,yeah, thanks for having me guys.

Yeah , absolutely I've been, and he's
with.

Faction Bike Studio.

Yes, Faction Bike.
This is our second episode.

You might remember, we had Adam on
previously and we promised youall a second episode with
Faction, and they were niceenough to agree to talk with us
again.
We didn't drive them too crazy,and Julian's here to tell us
more about Faction and a lotabout industrial design.

Yes, yeah, I've been deep diving
into industrial design versusindustrial engineering, which
are different, and uh and so wewere.
We were researching that alittle bit because, uh, I
listened to another podcast withanother manufacturer and
they're they always have guys ontheir their industrial engineer
and I thought they were thesame thing, but they're not, so

(02:03):
so yeah, maybe that's a goodplace to start.

Man, yeah, could you help like for our
listeners?
Could you help us under youknow, uh, differentiate between
like in a bicycle company or abicycle design company?
Um, what's the differencebetween an engineer, industrial
engineer and an industrialdesigner?

Yeah, yeah, so myself, industrial design, um
, that is kind of the moreartistic side of things.
We do a lot more of thevisualization, a lot of the
drawing Uh, I happened to go toa school for industrial design
uh in within a faculty ofengineering, so it is a little
bit more technical than someindustrial design programs, um,

(02:43):
but I think that lends itselfpretty nicely to working in this
industry, cause it is stillkind of that perfect marriage of
, you know, industrial or uhtechnical and kind of artistic
elements too Uh.
So, yeah, we do uh all of thedrawing, we do all of the CAD as
well.
Uh, some companies will haveseparate uh titles for CAD

(03:07):
modelers.

Do they call them CAD CAD jockeys?
Yeah, that kind of thing.

But they're actually it's a really important
role and uh, you know,obviously that person is kind of
sculpting the bike and ourindustrial designers actually
play that role as well.
Oh, wow.

Okay, so for the uninformed, what's CAD?

CAD is computer-aided design, and is
that correct, right, that's anold term, right, because I used
to think we used what did we use?
Shoot.
I just spaced it.
What's the old one?
Autocad AutoCAD is what I usedand I hear that's not the main
thing.

go to go to anymore yeah, that's uh not as
much.
Autocad is kind of the older 2dish version right.
Yeah, that's what I used a lot,man, I loved it I loved.

I self-taught myself how to do it
and I just I enjoy, I reallyenjoyed it, but then it got way
complicated and too timeconsuming.

So yeah, but it's true, and with bikes now,
everything's so complicated, youkind of have to do everything
in 3d.
So yeah, yeah, we do usesolidworks for all of our 3d cad
yeah, I remember solidworkscoming out.

This is a long time ago before I did
that.
Like it's, it's been 20 yearsprobably.

Yeah, so it's been a while so so I'm addicted
to artificial intelligence andspecifically the large language
models at the moment and morespecifically anthropics tool,
claude, which is just amazing.
So it's like a chat, chat, gpt,competitor, um.
But we asked claude earliertoday what was the difference
between a industrial designerand industrial engineer?
Um, and it gave us a real bigsummary, but it had some

(04:43):
interesting questions.
It said that the industrialdesigner would ask how can this
product delight and satisfy theuser, where the industrial
engineer would ask how can weproduce this better, faster and
with fewer resources?
Gotcha, what do you think about?

that.
I mean that seems like a prettygood summary.
I think another element ofindustrial design is kind of
like user-centric design, solike we're always designing
things that humans will be using.
So the electronics you holdevery day, you know the, even
the fixtures in your bathroom,the tools that you work on your

(05:21):
bike with, are all kind ofworked on by industrial
designers at some point.
So the user-centric element ofit is how does a human interact
with it?

right, so you're thinking about like
ergonomics and then like howdoes it?
Feel in your hand tactile, youknow like you know, is it?

is it intuitive to use or is it
confusing?
Um, you can go all the way downto like really fine details,
like textures and materials andand how that affects how you use
it.
You know, does the plastic wearout before the metal bit does?
Should we adjust that or is itmeant to do that?

that kind of perspective okay, I
have a serious question, uh,that you just triggered.
Okay, who's been triggeredagain?
Who is responsible for mattefinishes on bikes?
Because I want to talk to thatperson.

Yes, you probably want to shoot them
right.

Like is that an industrial designer
or is that some guy named Larrywho just had extra paint left
over?
Like what happened there?

I think it's Larry.

Yeah , it's a pitchfork or white bar
tape.
That's another one Like yeah,it looks great on a computer,
but who puts it on a bike Likewhite bar tape?
Do you know what I'm talking?

about yeah, but I mean in all seriousness, like
the finish of the bike is inyour job jar, is that right?

Uh, not all the time.
Uh, so, like larger companieswill have kind of color material
, finished designers who aremore focused on the graphics,
the paint and those types ofthings.
We've certainly worked on thatelement of bikes quite often,
but it's not something that'slike an everyday thing.
We're more focused on designingthe frames themselves and

(07:02):
creating the 3D models for themthemselves and creating the 3d
models for them.

You know, I just realized that we're.
You know, we're getting newlisteners every day.
Yep, and there may be some thatdidn't hear the first episode
with faction bike studio and wejumped right into the meat with
with julian here.

Uh, julian, could you take a minute?

yeah, could you take a minute and just explain
to like maybe some of our newlisteners that haven't heard
that previous episode.
Like what is faction bikes?

yeah , just a quick summary on what
you guys do and for for bikeindustry.

So yeah, so we're a design and engineering
firm and we primarily do uhdesign and engineering for bike
frames and forks.
Uh, we do work on componentstoo, but a good meat of the work
is is the frame and the fork,and we're talking kind of start
to finish from like the originaluh, from the brief and the

(07:50):
project definition all the wayto the handoff to the factory
and the support throughproduction.

So and so you're not doing this for
some individual like bobdoesn't call you up and say, hey
, I was thinking about buying abike, can you design me one?
He's, you know that's not whatyou're doing.
You're doing it for the actualbike manufacturer, like, so if I
mean, we don't know, let's saywe just make up a name and call
it brand X, you know, calls youup and says, hey, we're, we want
to come up with a new bike.

(08:17):
We don't want to.
We don't have any idea, is it?
They're out of ideas or they'rein a new scope?
How involved are you?
You're not full-time with them,right?

Occasionally we act as a full R&D department
for smaller companies Smallercompanies that don't really have
the funds to start their ownR&D company or sometimes the
know-how they can rely on us tobe kind of like the full turnkey
r&d.
And then for larger companieswe tend to be more of like the

(08:51):
overflow support.
So say, a really big company istrying to develop like a carbon
and an alloy version of amountain bike to release at the
same time.
They only have the bandwidth todo one.

We can do the other for them okay, that's
super cool and and one of your,I think, ethos of your company,
or one of the ground rules ofyour company, is that you don't
disclose like whichmanufacturers you're supporting
on what products yeah, exactlyso, where it's mostly silent
stuff.

If you see us online, we do have some kind of
marketing partnerships.
Um did some really cool stuffwith Frameworks last year and
this year ongoing, and thenwe're doing some really cool
stuff with Danger Home as well,if you guys are aware of him.

So those were brought up in the
last podcast so.
I encourage anyone who'sinterested to go check that out,
but I don't think I broughtthis up yet.
So I have a a frameworks at theshop.
Uh, right now one of ourlisteners is got a frameworks.
He's been um contacting me andhe was talking to me about
various things and I had seenhis frameworks and I was like

(09:58):
hey, as a joke was like hey,whenever you're ready to get rid
of that thing, let me know.
And sure enough he's like youcan borrow it.
Just take it, build it up andride it.
Just let me know what you thinkof it.
And so now it's at the shop andwe're gonna pimp it out and go
test it up against a coupleother downhill bikes.
So I'm stoked to ride thatthing and to try it out and
shout out to to brian forletting me try it out.

(10:20):
Uh, so we'll have some someinfo and we'll do a podcast on
on how that goes yes, I meanseems like they're doing pretty
good.

Uh, I think in hardline right, didn't uh a
rider on that one of theframeworks riders qualified the
fastest time in hardline thisyear, I think I saw yeah, asa is
an absolute bullet on that bikeit's.

It's pretty wild and it's super awesome to
see them him hitting the podium.
I know he's only the end ofjunior or start of elite, I'm
not too sure.

But I wonder if he's who was at
bootleg.
We there was a frameworkframeworks young athlete at
bootleg one time when I wasracing that was just smoking.
Everybody I bet you that's whoit is could have been so
bootlegs in nevada?

so okay, I'm not sure yeah, it's just outside
of las vegas yeah, literallylike 30 miles or something.

So I know they're all down there training
all winter, so yeah, yeah, uh soso that's awesome, so there's.

So you guys are kind of like hired
guns for the bike industry, youknow yeah, yeah, it's a good
summary, for sure, yeah so youcome in and kind of fit what
they need and and so you don'thave a, you don't have a product
that you sell.
You see, you accept yourselvesso yeah, yeah.

The only other thing that you'll see
online, of course, is that we'vebeen really involved in like
bonded frames.
Yeah, with Loctite.
Yeah, loctite was the one thatwe did.
That's part of the frameworksponsor with nico um, but we've
used all kinds of other, uh,bonding materials in order to
put them together.
So did you guys?

uh, did you guys deep dive into the
pivot?

uh, debacle with bernard kerr's bike yeah, I
mean I think adam might havetouched on this too like we
definitely were interested inwhat happened and any type of
like failure there is issomething that you, you want to
learn from.
So yeah but it sounds like theyunderstand what happened and
why it happened, so I thinkthat's a good starting point at

(12:18):
least, for they're still doingthat process.

The new trail cat has a was
developed with that process too,and that bike's amazing yeah,
we were actually in the pivotr&d lab like a couple weeks
after that happened yeah and gotto see it and talk to them
about it and they got I thinkthey got a good handle on it
yeah, oh yeah, they sure theydefinitely like and honestly,
you know, uh, bernard, from whatI know I don't know him

(12:41):
personally, but from what I knowhe is hard't know him
personally, but from what I know, he is hard on stuff, so if
somebody is going to breaksomething, he's a good one to do
that.

Yeah, these guys.
It's pretty intense how theforces that they put on these
machines.
It's amazing.
It's unlike anything else rightyeah.

Hey, so okay.
So maybe you could take usthrough, like step-by-step for
our listeners, the process from,like you know, you get the
initial inquiry from a bikecompany.
You know how does that?
What are like kind of like thesteps that you guys go through
leading up to you deliver yourfinal design and they go
manufacture it.

(13:18):
Could you help maybe walk usthrough that?

Yeah, of course.
So we have, like you know, pdpproduct development process.
It's not too, it's prettystandard, but we have adapted it
to, obviously, the cyclingworld.
If you're familiar with thatwhole thing, we start with
creating the brief with theclient and that's kind of the

(13:43):
whole agreement of what theproject's going to be and adding
as much definition to it as youcan.
So, what material is it?
Where are you going tomanufacture it?
Of course, like the hardrequirements, like what category
is it?
How much travel does it have?
What is it compatible with?

(14:05):
Call out anything that's unique.
Is there something that's goingto be super kind of uh, unique
to this bike that nothing elsedoes?
Um, and of course, there's allkinds of other technical
requirements there.
What sort of like safety and uhtests does it have to pass
right?
That's kind of like the phasewhere we agree on that uh, and
once we've kind of all gottencomfortable with what it is, we

(14:28):
move into the concept phase.
So that's when we're doing alot of the the most exciting
stuff, which is the sketchingand the early 3d models, and
kind of really defining whatthis thing is going to look like
.
Yeah, that's when the engineersalso develop the kinematic and
the geometry.
They do the calculations on thehardware to make sure that all

(14:51):
of the you know bolts and pivotsand everything are going to
stand up to the forces that weexpect for this bike.
And once we kind of have that,it's more of like the definition
.
The math behind it is allcomplete.
That's when we get into thedetailed designs.
That's when we actually makethe SOLIDWORKS model and we

(15:15):
would run FEAs, so like thefinite element analysis, which
is basically simulating wear andforces on the bike on the
computer before anythingactually exists in reality.
We'd also do 3D prints.
Then At that phase you couldalso do kind of like a glued

(15:36):
together mule if you wanted to,in order to actually get out and
ride something that is veryclose to what the real bike will
be like.
And then the following phase iskind of like production support
.
So that's when you release itto the factory and you start
getting their feedback and youwork towards like the first
prototypes with the factory andeventually into production.

(15:59):
So there's not really anythinglike super surprising there.
This is very similar to theprocess that other bike brands
take.
But that's our advantage isthat we we do have a similar
process.
So we can kind of jump in withother companies and we're
already up to speed.
We're already doing the kind ofthe same things that they're

(16:19):
doing.

So that's awesome, that's yeah.

That's like a skill set that you can keep
using for different people, butyou learn from every client, uh
how to make it better so um, oneof the things I struggle with I
can't wrap my head around ishow you guys manage like the
intellectual propertycontainment from project to
project.
That seems like that would be areally tough challenge.

Yeah, it can be a bit of a challenge.
For sure, you have to make sureyou know who has partnerships
with what other brands, andthere's a bit of file management
there to make sure that there'sno spillage.

Yeah , that's the best word.
So you know, as long as I'vebeen doing this, that's
something that I need a littlebit of explanation on.
So, intellectual property soyou're saying that if you guys
come up with a design, you guyshave to figure out who owns it?
Or are you saying that ifyou're using somebody else's
design, you've got to make surethat you have permission, or
what are you saying?

Well, the standard way, at least in the
United States I'm not sure whatit is in Canada, but the
standard way that intellectualproperty law works is that the
person that actually creates thedesign owns the design.

Dane (The Suspension Gur (17:27):
Gotcha .

Unless there's a term and condition between the
two companies that stipulatessomething different.
Yeah, I would imagine that yourcompanies, probably the
companies that you work with,you guys?
Probably have some type ofintellectual property agreement
and they probably own the designthat they're paying you to
develop.

Okay, property agreement and they
probably own the design thatthey're paying you to develop.
Okay, yeah, so we uh, anythingit's in our contracts, anything
that we create, is theirs.

Okay, within the scope of that project.
So what I'm talking about islike if you've solved this nice
little problem on brand x's orbrand a's bike, yeah you can't
actually take that solution tobrand B?
Unless brand A says it's okay.

Gotcha , okay, so let me put this in
like layman's term, becausethat's what I'm good at.
So, like I'm going to use pivotan example and you guys don't
work with pivot, but I'm justusing that because I know them
real well they have these coollittle cable covers for their
frames that they've made prettyuniversal on every bike and
almost every year, and so theyrarely change it.
They just change it on the newtrail cap.

(18:29):
But those little covers, if youguys had designed that and said
, hey, this will work, you know,and it's universal and you can
put it on every single one andit works great, then if you used
it on another brand, then you'dbe.

It would be they would be violating the
intellectual property, gotchaOkay.
And it gets super trickybecause when you get down to the
nuts and bolts of that and theengineers are just designing,
sometimes it's like, oh, I knowhow to fix that, and then it can
be really, really difficult.
Yeah, I work in an engineeringcompany, so we deal with this
all the time.

Yeah, yeah, it sounds like you're familiar
and it you know it's it's morelike you're familiar and it you
know it's it's more it's for uswe don't really like.
There's really no chance ofcross contamination, I guess is
what I'm trying to say, we'renot going to throw parts from
another project into anotherproject's 3d files, because it's
just kind of irresponsible.
Yeah, um, it can be challengingwhen we know we've kind of

(19:21):
solved something before, butthere's always many different
ways to approach something.
That's crazy.

Yeah, okay, you can know the answer and it's
like I can't tell you.

Yeah , yeah Right.

That's an interesting thing with
engineering consulting.

I got a question on something you
said that again I've tried todeep dive on.
I'm in this industry.
I hear it all the time.
I feel like I know what it is.
It comes up all the time, thisterm, kinematics.
Okay, it's very hard to go findout what actually people mean
by kinematics.
What, what is so like?
Sometimes they use it as a nounand sometimes a verb, and like

(19:59):
it gets used all over the place.
So what would you saykinematics means or what it is
uh.

Well, this is again.
This is the bridge between myexpertise and the engineering
expertise.
So, like, the actual creationof the kinematic for a full
suspension mountain bike is notsomething that I have to do.
I can have influence on it byuh asking the engineers to kind
of change points around.
But essentially it's creatingall of the pivot points on the

(20:28):
bike that determine how muchreal, weird real rear wheel
travel.
Try saying that 10 times uhrear wheel travel the bike has.
Uh, where the pivot points arehow many links it has, what
length or stroke of shock it has.
That's kind of.

So it's like a, it's like a one
word, you know, um likedescription of, like, the how,
the suspension, the suspension,like it's just it's basically an
easy suspension design is, andso it's like a one word Okay,
that helps.

So Claude says yeah, yeah.

What does claude say?
claude says how parts of asystem move relative to each
other okay, yeah, and see, thatis very hard to wrap your head
around because somebody will saysomething like well, the
kinematics of the bike or thekinematic design, you know,
they'll use it in differentterms and throw it around and
it's like really confusingsometimes and again I've been in

(21:24):
this.
I understand that what they'retrying to say is that how the
bike works, but is there somesort of actual goal, like, is it
?
You know, it was really toughbecause it was kind of had to do
with geometry.
People were using it in a, in ageometry term, like a front,
rear, center and a front centerand a rear center and things
like that, and I'm like so nowwe're getting into geometry too,

(21:44):
so, and that was getting.
And then they were talking aboutthe front of the bike and how
it changes the geometry and thataffects the kinematics, and so
it gets a little weird when youstart using the that term.

So so yeah it's true and and when you do,
look at it excuse me as a wholesystem, the.
Maybe the term kinematic makesmore sense, but I'm not too sure
.

Yeah , it's, it's, it's.
I think it's an easy word Likeit's just hey, this, this is
easier than trying to say ohyeah, it's the, the high pivot
or how far away the links are,if it's walking bar or if it's
you know.
I mean you can just saykinematics.

I know that you guys have talked about
having Simo on my colleague.
He is probably one of the moreguru guys for suspension and
kinematic.
I mean there's there's a bunchof other them in our company,
but obviously I'm kind of moreon the visual and 3D side of
things rather than theengineering.

(22:49):
So that's kind of why I'msaying it's not exactly in my
jurisdiction, but thanks fortrying to set us straight.

man, we appreciate it.
So you guys are in Quebec, yeah, and you guys have obviously
some pretty harsh winters andsome pretty gnarly terrain up
there.
Do you think like where you'relocated influences the design of
your bikes?

at all like kind of extreme terrain.
In a certain way it helps usthat there's a good variety too.
We're kind of right betweenAppalachian Mountains and
Laurentian Mountains, so thereis a good diversity of types of
trails.
It's not like we're onlydesigning for steep loam or some

(23:38):
specific type of trail.
We've got it all around us,which is kind of cool of trail.
We've got it all around us,which is kind of cool.
So I think that definitelyplays into the DNA where our
bikes tend to be really goodall-rounders.
But it's not just us right.
There's a handful of bikecompanies out here that kind of
end up having that same approach.
But it is really cool to seethings tested to absolute limits

(24:02):
and it's kind of right outsideyour door.
Yeah, it's kind of rightoutside your door yeah, it's
simple.

I think the only the only thing that you're
missing is that all year roundriding that we have here at the
future location of faction bikestudio south.

Yeah , I'm always I'm always amazed,
like um tucson, in general uh,we have low cost of living, uh,
there's tons of land, it'sfairly cheap.
I'm always amazed that morecompanies aren't here when they
spend as much money, as they doin some places, and I know
there's kind of shipping andlogistics that cause some of
that.

Although I can't imagine shipping into
Quebec is is simple.

Well , they don't need to ship their,
their shipping themselves.

They're shipping digital digital files.

Yeah , I mean, you got some 3dD
printed stuff, but really it'sjust you.
You need some flights, andflights are cheap to Tucson.

Yeah, there you go.
Well, I mean, the second officeis a possibility there, yeah,
I'm trying to will it intoexistence.

I might know someone that can help you get it
set up if you guys areinterested, so please keep us in
mind as a business expense.

It's a necessity, so yeah but uh, I
had a question on the designaspect, because, uh, there's a,
a particular bike that we soldin the past.
That just made me frustrated.
Uh, because it was a goodworking bike.
It did a good job at roadwell,but it was overly heavy and the

(25:28):
design of the tube set.
It was a carbon bike.
I don't know if you've heard ofa brand called eminent.

No, I don't think so.

Yeah , so this is a, as far as I know
it's, it's gone out of business.
Um, it was a smaller company.
It may have been something thatyou guys may have worked on.
So I was a little worried about.
But but the engineer who kind ofstarted it kind of looked at
bikes and was like I think I cando a better job, right, and so
he took basically kind of ahorse bar link and modified it

(25:59):
quite a bit.
It looked like an old I don'tknow if you know the old Schwinn
Ladwell design bikes where theyhad the four bars were really
at the four bar.
It wasn't like this distortedlook of a four bar, they look
like an A-arm and it's a similardesign to that.
The bikes that he made workedreally well.
They actually rode, pedaledgreat.
He had a system where you couldchange the travel by changing

(26:21):
the stroke of the rear shock anduh, and a bar that basically
mounted it to different lengthsso the same frame could do a 120
travel bike, then a 140 andthen, I think, a 160, and so you
could.
It was a good design he.
He was really talented.
But the thing that he did thatdrove me nuts is he would design
the tube set squared off like athink stealth bomber or you

(26:44):
know those real rigid sharpangles, and the bike had this
potential, but it was kind ofportly, you know, a little bit
heavy, and I'm like that's not agood.
I mean, he had such raisededges I know those are stress
risers, you know and so um how?
From what I heard, it wasbecause he liked the look of it

(27:06):
and so okay, so that's thequestion, right.

So like, yeah, like, how often do you run into
conflicts between, like, some ofthe design requirements around?
You know?
Strength?
Yeah weight, um safety, andlike the aesthetic of the bike.
Yeah, like, do you have anyexamples of like conflicts and
like where you've run into that?

(27:30):
Like, hey, they wanted to dothis but it doesn't look cool,
so we gotta, we gotta change it.

Yeah , it looks like everybody else's
bike.
You know how do we make it lookunique?
So exactly.

There's.
There's always a little bit ofpush and pull between those
characteristics because, uh, youknow, we are trying to create
different things and in order todo so we'll sketch something
that maybe is a bit wild.
And there's always a challengewhere we kind of look at this
and it's not just me, I'll lookat it with my engineer co-worker

(28:00):
next to me and we see, like youknow, you can tell me if I'm
crazy.
But what if we did this?
And it's kind of like thiscollaborative thing where we're
trying to figure out okay, itprobably won't look like the
original sketch, we're probablygoing to have to soften this
radius and we're probably goingto have to, you know, make this
taper less dramatic or something.
But the process is kind of, itis highly collaborative and it

(28:26):
is trying to come up withsomething new, but it has to be
something that works in the end.
Like you've mentioned, we'vedone like a ton of project 300
something projects of those likeit's in the nineties, the
percentage of of what ended uphitting the market.
Uh, so our goal is always, likesuccessful products to market

(28:47):
Okay.

Wow, that's a crazy success rate actually.

Well, I mean, it's actually insane how many
of it and a portion of that thatisn't in the market is because
it was always meant to just be atest meal, kind of thing.

Yeah, I didn't see that statistic on your
website.
Maybe you should put that onyour website.

Cause that's not there.

We should, yeah , maybe take a note Cause, like
I studied your website prettydeeply, I'm going to feel bad if
it's there.

But I feel like if you had an
in-house R and D, you would bemore accepting of them farting
around trying new things andseeing what sticks, and.
But when you go outside andhire somebody to do it, you're
probably much more motivated tohave that product actually make
money to pay back that expense.

Exactly that's kind of at the core of it
being a consulting service, isthat, uh, the the people who
hire us want it to happen, andthere's really no excuse to go
through that process and nothave something that's successful
.

Okay, I just confirmed.
It's not on your website.
What?

Oh.

I don't know what the number is, but it's
very high.

Yeah , that's pretty amazing, so I'm
not even using this list that'sfine.

I'm just walking all over.

That's a matter of good um, we did
talk about visualization andsoftware tools, but, um, I was
just going to ask you really,what is the, what is the part of
the job that makes you want togo to work every day?
Like what is it that?
I mean, you were saying thatthere's all this process of
figuring out what you can andcan't do.
Then you've got to work throughthe process the sketching and
the kind of design is really funand then you've got to get to.

(30:28):
You know, does it actually, isit going to actually work?
And things like that.
What is the particular processin there that really brings you
back every day, that like reallyjust kind of does it for you,
where you put up with all theother stuff just because you get
to do that?
You?

put up with all the other stuff just because
you get to do that.
So I think at our core we're abunch of bike nerds and we just
really love to spend our time onthis stuff.
I think that's kind of thegeneralization for everyone at
faction.
But for me specifically, Ithink the refinement and the and
the refinement of the processas we go through to see

(31:03):
something go from a sketch to afoot, first 3d model to a
detailed 3d model, and theneventually it shows up in the
mail on your desk and you get tosee it, uh, and you get to ride
it I think that's the mostsatisfying process to go through
and for a bike nerd to be ableto be involved in that, I think
that's kind of like it's theultimate, it's the dream job,

(31:24):
right yeah, do you.

Do you get?
So?
Is that in the contract wherethey got to send you a bike?
Is it always your size?
I wish.

No, I'm six, three, two, 20 and I'd never get
to.

Yeah , they're always coming in
mediums, aren't they?
They're always mediums or large.

I'm worried I'm going to break it.
So no, we try and get a modelof everything we work on.

When you say a model, is that like a
production, like?

rideable Ideally rideable.

Yeah , that's maybe not the end color
and fit and finish, butrideable?

Yeah, it might be like a prototype, where
there's no paint or it's gotthe wrong components or uh,
whatever, but um, it's actually.
It's worse when we get theprototypes that you can't ride.
Yes, yeah, because it's just atease.
They, they can only sit thereand sometimes they actually meet
the bandsaw to be cut up andanalyzed, which hurts even more.

But oh yeah, destructive testing is
really a double edged sword,because breaking stuff is fun,
but then you're breakingsomething and you're like I
could have used that.

And then, and then, and then, if you see
something fail a test, you'relike, oh, I'm glad I didn't ride
that yeah.

So do you?
Do you own any bikes?
That faction has helped design.

Yeah, right now.

Is it that specialized right behind you?
That was.
My next question was like whatbikes do you own?

Well , actually I had a question that
I thought would be kind of funis do you ever walk like at a
bike park or something and see abike that you worked on and
like I?
I mean, I feel like you have tokeep secrets all the time.
It's got to feel good.
Does that bottle up?
Do you ever go like go out inthe backyard and just yell that
I made that.

You know it can be challenging at times.
I was riding out west with somefriends, uh, last spring, and I
was riding a bike that I hadrented and they had.
They just insisted that I hadworked on it.
They wouldn't let it die.
No, I swear to you, this is notmine.
But uh yeah, no, that I meanthat's a challenge.

(33:33):
You.
You gotta hold your tongue.
Of course it's part of the job.

I know we were watching videos off
your website and, uh, everybodywould show like, oh, maybe it
was Facebook, I don't know.
But you'd see people with theirbikes and I'm like, oh, that
guy's on a that guy's on a and.
I'm like oh, they must make thatone, you know, and I think Adam
said he didn't say that, youknow, he just said that he's an
ambassador for GT, I think atthe time, like he was riding GTs

(33:55):
and we're like, of course,we're like, oh, you must make
those, you know.
So something that always trackcracks me up in the bike
industry is that people, my bikerep, one of my reps, comes in
and I think I can say this he'snot going to get mad at me, but
he's my Shimano rep and he'slike hey man, can you get me a
pivot?
You know, and it's like youforget, because he's in the

(34:21):
industry, you forget that heonly can get one part of that.
You know, I can get only thebikes we sell, you know, and uh,
so you kind of forget that weare all bike nerds and we're
having fun with this stuff andso, like you know, like uh,
brian loaning me that, that youknow, um, frameworks, I was like
super giddy because I'm like Idon't think I would have had an
opportunity to try one of theseout if it weren't for that

(34:42):
situation, even though i'm'm inthe bike industry.
You know, I don't, I don't thinkeven I could call him up and be
like, hey, can I have one ofyour bikes?
You know, call up Nico orsomething, but uh, so yeah, it's
, it's kind of weird, uh, whatwe choose to ride and even
though you may make it, you maynot be able to have one.
So, absolutely, and in ouroffice I feel like everyone

(35:16):
reaches for those really nichebikes.

So if you're seeing a lineup of bikes that
are that are belong, belong tous, then uh, it's, it's probably
also people just finding weirdstuff that they really want.

A lot of them are old pictures of
26 inch bikes.
I can't remember where it was,but yeah and like uh, it
evidently a lot of people atfaction do like ultra cross
country in the mud kind of rides.
I don't um, there was like,yeah, endurance stuff.
Yeah, like endurance stuff.

So yeah, yeah , there's definitely.
It's really cool to see whateveryone's into, cause it's not
it's not all just mountainbikers or enduro riders.
There's people who are intobike packing and ultra distance,
and there's some roadies andsome guys who live for their fat
bikes and it's it's a realdiverse bunch.

So that's pretty cool, so you can
bring a lot to um the.
The design process for bringingthat experience In fact that
was one of our questions that wewere going to talk about is
like uh, how, how many hats doeseach person wear?
Like how.

Yeah, I had a hypothesis that in a in smaller
companies sometimes you wearmore hats than just yours, and
so I was.
I was just speculating that youprobably get more involved in
like specific design than maybea cut.
Like my company has 16,000engineers, right?

Yeah, and a huge design organization.
Yeah, we definitely try andmatch the people with the
projects that are mostappropriate.
So if someone has a ton of, youknow, enduro or gravity
oriented mountain bikingexperience and the project comes
through the door, that's thattopic.
We'll try and match it up, butit's not always the case.

(36:44):
I've worked on basically everygenre of bike out there.
Um, even though you might matchme up with the mountain bike
stuff a bit more, uh, and viceversa, there's some industrial
designers on our team who aremore road and gravel oriented,
but they can work on mountainbikes just as well as I can.
So, um, we do our best to kindof optimize our, like uh,

(37:08):
experience and our knowledge.
But, uh, there's, there's kindof there's always a sharing of
knowledge too, where if, ifyou're working on a project
where you don't know as much,you can always call over that
engineer who does kind of thing.

That's cool, yeah, hey you mentioned that you
know human factors, or you know, like the, the bike body
interface, ergonomics, whateveris, is kind of part of part of
what's in your job jar.
And also you said you were six,three and two, 20, and I'm six,
three and more than two, 20.
So, fellow rock crusher like I,so fellow rock crusher like um,

(37:48):
just interested in like howmuch like, uh, focus or
attention is applied to, likethe non medium 180 pound, five
foot 10 rider, like, do they, asyou're going through this
process, I mean, are theythinking about guys like you and
me, or girls that are five foottall, weigh 110 pounds?

Yeah, it's, it's's becoming much more of a
factor.
I feel like you've probablyseen it in the marketing of all
these bikes, where we aregetting a bit more specific with
the geometry for the largersizes, with size-specific
chainstays.
Chainstays and uh the layupsare being applied more

(38:23):
specifically for larger bikes sothat uh, the larger ones aren't
don't ride uh less stiffcompared to like the medium size
.
You lay it up, uh say, like thecarbon layup or the tube
thickness on the aluminum umgets ramped up through the

(38:44):
sizing in order so that all thebikes kind of like feel
proportionate.
Uh, through the size range.
We of course, like the the sizemedium ends up being the one
that's on the website.
That side view of the sizemedium ends up being kind of the
visual that everyone locks intoUm, but we definitely spend a
lot of time early days whenwe're sketching uh, figuring out

(39:07):
how that size range is actuallygoing to work.
So is the extra small going tolook kind of gorky because the
top two best do this k?
So is the extra small going tolook kind of gorky because the
top tube has to do this kink?
Or is the extra large going tolook really silly because the
head tubes, you know, twice aslong as the medium or something
Um, and we definitely playaround with those variables to
make sure that it feels cohesiveand one doesn't feel like it's

(39:28):
a totally different bike thanthe medium right like what are
the extremes, what are youdesigned to for for height and
weight?

like what's the max, what's the min, and then
what are the the weightparameters?

well for we, for adult bikes, uh uh, this is
off the top of my head, but alot of the size range is like
410, 411 up to 6667.
That's kind of like the max 99percentile.
So 99 of the population fits inthat size bracket.

(40:03):
Um, there's certainly peoplewho go a bit further with double
xls and triple xls, but that'skind of a bit even more niche.

Yeah.

You probably know how many double or how many
XL bikes do you bring in versusmediums.

Not nearly as many, yeah, and and
some companies extra large isanother company's extra extra
large and vice versa you know,so that's kind of weird too.

So what about?
What about weight?
How is that factor in the riderweight?
Is there like a standard?

you know like it has to take this
much weight.

Yeah.
So, the safety standards have acertain amount.
Usually I don't know off thetop of my head exactly what it
is.
Again, that's more engineeringrealm.
But we have worked on bikeswhere we've pushed that a bit
further, knowing that you knowsomeone who is six, six is

(40:59):
probably going to be over two,50 kind of thing, um, so the.
And then we have worked onbikes where we're trying to make
sure that the size range feelsproportionately stiff.
I think that's one of the coolnewer innovation things that
people are working on these days.

So so your, your, your specialty is
not so much in like you knowwhat parts are on it or where
the suspension is or anything.
But you're looking at, we'regoing to make a double diamond
frame.
How do you make it distinctive?
You know what?
What do you put?
So you talked about radius.
Diamond frame.
How do you make it distinctive?
You know what, what do you put?
So you talked about radius.
You know, do you change theradius?
So like that would be likewhere one tube meets another.

(41:39):
You're kind of trying to blendthat art with function.
How often do you butt headswith those engineers that are
like Nope, just stick ittogether.
You know, like, how often?
You know, like, how often doyou know?
Because I know, with carbon andas you layer carbon, it makes a
different stiffness and it canaffect the stiffness of the bike
.
So, to achieve a certain lookin the carbon that you may want

(42:01):
a deeper head tube or something,and and then you have like UCI
rules.
I don't know if you know this,but UCI has like a certain depth
from the head of the tube tothe back.
You know to be qualified aeroor what have you, and so I'm,
I'm out of my depth, but I justknow it exists and so, like, how
often do you have to like fightfor something that's going to
look so cool?

(42:22):
But then it may really affectthe the way that the bike turns
out yeah, there's.

There's definitely a lot of tuning knobs
.
I mean you, you said you're in aold music theater it's like
your big soundboard, right,you've got all these dials in
front of you and you get to playwith which ones, to kind of
come up with the bike so thatone dial that sharpens all the
radiuses.
I'm gonna maybe push down a bit.
It is like a bit of negotiationthere, but honestly, we've all

(43:03):
been down the road so many timeswhere we try and push things a
bit too far and you know wherethings end up.
Right, you know whatmanufacturers are capable of
doing in terms of, like, howtight a radius could be for a
carbon bike, how you know whatis the uh manufacturing limits
of, say, a hydroform tube, uhfor an aluminum bike, and you

(43:27):
know not to push it too farbecause ultimately you still
have to make it so you're,you're using your experience to
narrow that down, so you justdon't have those conflicts yeah,
basically, and sometimes you'llit's really like the the goal
of the project can can play arole there too, where if you're
working on a really ultra lightroad bike and you know that the

(43:49):
layup of the carbon is going tobe super critical for getting
the right weight and stiffness,you might not want to push those
dials too far in terms of theaesthetic purpose.
If you look at like the speshethos, like their lightweight
road bike right now, like if youlook at the marketing, they're
very clear with what they'vedone there and that they've kind

(44:11):
of pulled all of those designrequirements down and really
meshed them with the uh kind ofmanufacturing requirements of
the carbon to create as much ofa blend between light and stiff
as they can yeah, that's, that'sa huge thing, even in the
manufacturing process, like whenthey switch to kind of mandrel.

Uh, manufacturing versus bladder,
you know uh that that um felt, Ithink called it, or rocky calls
it, smooth wall, but uh,basically, where they have a, a
foam, you know frame, inside ofthe carbon and then they inflate
a tube inside that foam and ithelps reduce the crinkling or

(44:51):
the, the wrinkling of the, theepoxy on the inside, so that you
don't get stress risers, youknow.
So is that stuff that you getto input on or is that shifting
into somebody else's scope?

It's, it's partially, uh, it'll be kind of
like we have a discussion withthe vendor or with, like, a
layup expert.
Uh, we have a greatrelationship with, um, the guru
Richard Matthews, uh, who haslaid up basically every carbon
bike out there.

Nice .
What does he work for anyoneindividual?
Or is he a manufacturer?
I don't know him, cause I'mhorrible with names, but so he's
, uh, he's, he's just acontractor.

He'll come in and help uh basically anyone uh
.
But he's got years and yearsexperience.

It's kind of crazy how many uh bike
companies have worked with himso is that like if you put
somebody similar to that, wouldthat be frank the welder?
Yeah, exactly okay yeah I justhappen to know him because we
camp together one time.
So um, but yeah so basicallysomebody who's been in the
industry, worked for multiplecompanies, frank the welder?

is he like one of the characters from bob the
builder?

yes he is the welder, and he's the
guy who says yes this isactually a person, yeah he goes,
yes, we can no um.
So I just a little divert, likebecause uh, nico mahali.
Uh, frank the welder is the guywho's helping most of his welds,
uh okay and so back in the day,do you remember, like the I
think it was the atec stem, atec, atec.

(46:26):
Uh, if you look under there Ithink I could be wrong.
Somebody correct me, but I'mpretty sure that was Frank the
welder and you'll see a lot ofthose will say FTW on them.

So I thought FTW meant something else.
Yeah, well, it does.

But he's, I know him because, no
joke, I was hanging out at adownhill race at a campground
and we were around a fire and wewere just talking and he told
me he goes hey, you know, yeah,I'm, I weld, I'm a welder, you
know, and that's.
He was super humble at the timebut the guy is like an amazing
welder so and he's a hired gun,so he's very similar to faction,
like he'll go out and kind ofyou know, he doesn't have a

(47:04):
particular home.
Oh cool, and so it sounds likethe guy that you were talking
about is kind of a similar umfor carbon, carbon layup so yeah
yeah, exactly, julian.

Uh, what was I going to say?
Uh, oh, yeah.
So someone like that, likeRichard Matthews, could tell you
hey, the the layup here.
It means that this radius hereis all uh filler.
Basically yeah, yeah, you'renot actually gaining any
performance, any stiffness, anystrength, if anything.
It's kind of potentially evendoing the opposite.
So he's the type of person whocould help you tune your design

(47:44):
specifically in the layup stuff,and we've got a certain amount
of that knowledge.
But there is kind of some gurusout there like that who help us
out.

Yeah , I was watching a YouTube video
and they took a giant frame andthey cut it up.
They went and bought it.
It was like $4,000.
I went to a local bike shop,bought this like $4,000 TCR
advanced or whatever it was andthen cut it up and then analyzed
it.
Cut it up and then analyzed itand, uh, I don't know if it was

(48:14):
Richard who they were talkingabout, uh, but the guy that was
talking about was showing themall the voids at the corners and
the radiuses.
He was showing basically thebubbles which you're not
supposed to have.
You know that cause you knowissues, and so it was kind of
cool.
But I was kind of amazed thatthese guys just took this $4,000
frame that was perfectly good,brand new and just right off a
showroom floor, it wasn't even afactory sample or anything like

(48:34):
that and just cut it up andjust went through this.
So it's kind of fun to watch.

actually, we've definitely done that too.
It hurts to see it, uh, in thebase bed in our lab.

Now.
So I heard you can just superglue those back together and
they'll be fine.

Oh yeah, no, it's a joke, that's a joke.
Yeah, please do not do that.

Please do not do that you can put
super glue on a scratch, butdon't get carried away.

So, julian, how do you guys stay ahead of like
the design and aesthetic trends?
Like you're working on aproject?

wait , wait.
Are you setting them or are youfollowing them?

yeah, hopefully we're setting them.
I mean, there are certainsetting them, or are you?
following them.
Yeah, there you go.
Hopefully we're setting them.
I mean, there are certainprojects where we are kind of
trying to push those limits.
For sure, there's definitelybrands that know that they're
considered like a fast follower,and that's an okay approach too
.
But in terms of finding thatcutting edge, a lot of

(49:31):
industrial designers look toother industries.
You can kind of go crazy if youjust stay in the bike industry
and keep on looking at bikesover and over and over again.
So you'll see a lot of our kindof inspiration boards, a lot of
our imagery that we create inorder to set the tone, the mood.
The look of the bike ends upbeing very abstract and inspired

(49:54):
by, say, like fashion orelectronics or other kind of
categories of product that aremuch faster moving than the bike
industry.
Ultimately, we have, you know,maybe it's like a two-year-ish
window from when you start aproject to when it ends up in
your shop, right?
And you gotta be really carefulabout what trends to follow in

(50:18):
order to make sure it's evenrelevant on day one, never mind,
you know, five years later whenit's at the end of its, like,
life cycle, right.

Oh yeah, like if it's too trendy
and it just immediately becomespasse.

Like where do you take your inspiration?
Then Like what?
What do you lean on personally?

Oh, uh, I I really love concept art.
I really love uh like BladeRunner-esque uh concept artists
online Um, there's an automotiveuh industrial designers as well
.
Automotive designers are prettykind of that's the the surgeon
level um designer uh, if youwill, in the industry, and

(50:57):
there's some pretty amazing onesout there.
There's a guy uh Keisel what'shis last name?
Kaiser?

Sose .

I know that guy .
I know that guy.

Sorry squirrel that guy, sorry
squirrel, uh, kaisel salim.
Uh, he's a british, uh,automotive designer who does a
lot of really crazy rendersadding kind of futuristic body
kits to old cars.
He'll take like a lamborghininura and like slam it to the

(51:31):
ground and cut the bumper offand he'll do all this stuff that
you'd never do to the real carbut he does it, you know, on the
computer in CAD, and then herenders them in these crazy
apocalyptic environments andwild lighting and it's just like
, it's just eye candy.
And I don't know if I've puttogether an inspiration board in

(51:53):
the last year or so that hasn'thad his stuff on it.

You know, I grew up.
My best friend's dad was anindustrial designer.
I grew up in Detroit.
So, you know car industry isbig there and my best friend's
dad was an industrial designerfor the car industry and all
over his house there were likesketches and pictures and stuff
of of cars he um his his claimto fame was he.
He designed the grand national,the buick grand national.

(52:20):
Oh wow, with that car it's.
It's kind of like a special carokay, his last name is doble,
mike doble, but um uh yeah man,I kind of like saw this like
what you live, and you said Ididn't realize that the car guys
were the surgeons.
So I guess he was.
He was a surgeon.

Yeah , so, so, like that's a great
way to kind of picture what youdo, like when, cause we've seen
the car designers and they gettheir big clay model and they go
and form the clay and theconcept car and kind of figure
out how it's going to look andthen eventually somebody has to
figure out how to fit everythingin that little package and make
it work.
So you're kind of the one thatgets to to develop that, that

(52:58):
model and that that initialdesign, and so yeah, that's
we've done.

we've done 3d clay stuff for sure.
Yeah, it's a bit old fashionedin terms of it.

It's not as and it's not as fast.

Yeah, you can just digitally print it now.
Right, exactly, and for us it'salmost faster to do that 3d
model on the computer and printit like 3d print it.

So, um, I don't know if you can say
this or not, so I understand youhave to be secretive about
stuff.
Is there anything that you didthat like we would recognize,
that you can tell us?
Like, besides danger home Causewe talked about on the last one
and frameworks and the Loctite,is there anything that we may

(53:44):
recognize that you guys had ahand in, that you can say like
maybe even abstract, whereyou're?

not.
You're just trying to get thequestion in a different way.
You think they're going to giveus a different answer this time
but where multiple companiesmaybe use it, and so it's.

You're not really naming one company,
you know.
Is there anything?
Like that that pops out whereyou're like yeah man, I, I went
on that.
I did that, you know so it's.

It's so hard, everything's really got a name
attached to it.
We're we're going to be doingmore in terms of like these more
visible projects, because it isreally nice to show people and
we do need some more kind oflike evidence of our expertise
out there in the world forpeople to see and, of course,

(54:31):
there are other people doingsimilar things to what we do
where it is more visible online.
And ultimately, yeah, that'sjust not our approach.

I haven't been able to find another company
that does exactly what you guysdo.

Yeah, yeah there's very, very few.
There are more kind of agenciesthat focus on transportation
design in general.
So there's a really big one inAustria called Kiska that does a
lot of kind of ATVs and dirtbikes.

Yeah, it's more than just bicycles.

Exactly.
We're so specialized to justthe bikes, so so what?

um, I'm going to let you off the hook on the
question and change the subject,just because.
I respect your your your uh gagorders Um is there a design
trend that's just annoying,driving you crazy.
You hate it.
Or maybe even one in the pastthat this is now past and you
don't have to deal with, butlike?

(55:37):
Is there a design trend?

out there.

You're like oh God, not again.
Yeah, there was some reallyswoopy frames.
I don't know how you describeit.
Uh, 2015, era of like.
Ellsworth, yeah, when EllsworthIbis yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah,
um, I was.
I was pretty happy to see thattrend kind of fade away, but I

(56:01):
feel like there's some of itcoming back these days too.
Uh, that was uh, I don't know.
I do like kind of crisp, sleeklines.
I'm a fan of, like you know,80s automotive stuff that's
really kind of like straight tothe point and pretty boxy, but
it's ultimately like stillreally attractive in a way,

(56:22):
right.
So you'll see a lot of that inmy sketching.

Now we can figure out what bikes you worked
on.
Now we can figure out whatbikes you worked on.

Well , I definitely want you to go
look up that eminent bike,because now I feel like you did
work on it he couldn't tell us.

Yeah, I know, and we haven't told him that I'm
an expert in reading faces.
So, yeah, oh yeah, so no, no,I'm trying to think what, what
other?

um, like, I'm trying to think you
know people that listen to this,they're going to have a
question like what questionwould they have?
You know?
Like, uh, what, what would yousay?
Is a trend that you see comingout that you can talk about,
that you think it's gonna bepopular?

yeah, like what ?
What are you?
What are you working on now, intwo years?
Yeah, you're seeing across.
Tell us the future.
Multiple projects yeah, predictthe future.

That's a good question.
I think the last couple ofyears has been really like
integration.
It's been a really big theme,obviously, with things looking
sleeker In terms of mountainbikes.
We've seen a lot of linkagebeing very integrated into the
frame.
It feels like it's a part ofthe rear triangle, or it feels
like it's really kind of therear triangle, or it's feels
like it's really kind of likecohesive there.

(57:34):
I think some of the stuff thatwe're seeing in the future is
kind of diverging from thatslightly, where it's not pushed
as far as like a 2004 KonaStinky with a 12 foot long
rocker.

But it's not a Scott.

But it's not a scott, where everything's
hidden inside the frame well,exactly, I think we're
expressing a bit more of themechanical element, uh, and I
think there is definitely a pushfor more maintainability, so
expressing and exposing moreelements that you need to access
.
So, although that's a realcounterpoint to the where we've

(58:13):
seen, you know, road and gravelgoing in the last couple years,
I think we're going to see moreof that in in mountain bike in
the next couple years.

I can tell you, um, from a bike
shop standpoint, if you candesign internal cable routing,
that's not a pain in the ass.
You will be.
You'll make millions, likebecause everybody loves to look
at these fully integrated uh,you know hydraulic lines that go
through the handlebar, throughthe stem, into the bike and you
never see them on the bike.

(58:41):
This is road bikes mainly.
Um, no mechanic likes them, weall hate them.
So, because the amount of workjust to change the cable a
headset bearing or what have youlike that is a, a huge pain in
the butt you know, are we goingto continue to see like cables
routed inside the headset?
yeah, like, is that somethingI'm?

hoping the bike industry's learning, at least
the mountain bike industry'slearned enough that we shouldn't
do that.

Is that the same guy that did the
matte paint?
Is it the same?
Is it larry?

it's larry yeah, let's get uh, like no, uh,
I think we're seeing.
Well, obviously, the mountainside of things was kind of
pushed back slightly, maybe withthe exception of cross country.
I think cross country is kindof borrowing a bit from the road
side of things.
Yeah, yeah, um, in that there'sa bit more integration.
Uh, I think the mountain bikewill continue to push back and

(59:36):
even if you do have the optionfor internal, uh routing the,
you know, the external cableports will remain.
Yeah, hopefully, yeah, uh, Idon't know if I see the same
going for for road and gravel,though I feel like, if anything,
it's just gonna they're goingto double down.

Yeah down, yeah it's.
It's a big discussion in theshop.

Just quit carrying road and grab stuff
well.

So you know, uh, just to bring up a
point that that sometimes youknow an industrial designer may
not think about I bet he does,but maybe not all of them do is
when we sell a fifteen thousanddollar road bike and it's got an
integrated bar and stem comboand then we go to fit the bike
and it needs to be different.
The manufacturers have notactually have no have no answer

(01:00:22):
to this other than just buy morestuff.

Josh (Magellan) (01:00:26):
And that's that's a good.
That's a good question, causewe we have on this podcast, we
have delved into bike fits, bothon road bikes, gravel bikes and
mountain bikes, and I actuallywent and got fitted myself and
went through that whole processand it's amazing how much little
tweaks can impact your ride.

Julian Richardson (01:00:43):
Yeah.

And when the design like limits my ability to
adjust the fit of the bike,yeah, that, that's a, that's a,
that's a selling point for me.

Dane (The Suspension Guru) (01:00:52):
Big time and and and I am seeing
that more often where the bikesare way more adjustable on the
mountain side.
I'm not seeing it on theroadside.
So, like mountain, right nowthere's a lot of bike companies
that are actually includingadjustable reach into their
designs so they can change thereach numbers.
Uh, adjustable wheel bases sothey can change the reach

(01:01:13):
numbers, adjustable wheelbases,adjustable leverage ratios,
things like that.
And on the roadside, like Iswear, you can buy a $15,000
road bike and then, when you getit fit to you, they'll have to
tell you you need to spendanother 500 bucks because that
company didn't come up with anyanswer to the fact that the bike
needs to be fit to the personso is that something you guys
deal with?

you guys thinking about ability to fit a
bike to a rider during thedesign absolutely, and I think
the uh, to go to your mountainbike point too, in terms of the
tune or the elements that therider or the consumer can tune
on the end.
I think we'll see another layerof that in the next couple
years too.
Um, the you've probably seen iton the downhill world cup,

(01:01:57):
where people are adding extrabraces to make bikes like
stiffer in the corners.
Yeah, yeah, for certain trackswhere it's necessary, or take
out the brace and make it a bitsofter.

Like on the stays.

Yeah, I think that's something we'll see kind
of at the consumer level,hopefully soon.
That's pretty cool.
But it feels like there's like amaturing of the audience, Like
the whole demographic isbecoming more knowledgeable.
So, you know, even in terms ofgeometry and all of these like
small tweaks.
So you know, flip chip was ofgeometry and all of these like
small tweaks.
So, uh, you know, flip chip wasthe iteration of that five

(01:02:34):
years ago and now we've gotreach adjust and in a few years,
hopefully, we've got even morelike dials to turn.
So yeah.

Yeah , it is nice to be able to take
one bike and kind of help it getto be what the customer needs,
rather than requiring thecustomer to uh change for the
bike.

It's an interesting balance, though,
because you give me too manydials, I don't know what to do.
Like trying to set up mysuspension Like I've.
I've kind of gone away fromlike factory and just back to
like performance and if I'mtalking about Fox products,
because like there's just likeI'm not sophisticated enough to
understand these dials and sojust make it good.

Dane (The Suspension Gu (01:03:12):
There's a certain level of set and
forget.
You know where people just setit up and and sometimes all of
those adjustments are really sothat you can set and forget it.
You know like we sell bikesthat have multiple bottom
bracket, height and head angleadjustments.
I don't know a ton of peoplethat go change them on every
single ride, depending on theride.
My Rocky has that and I'llchange it when I'm doing

(01:03:34):
descending at a bike park andthen I'll change it when I'm
doing cross country.
But that's about it.
I don't get into a lot of theother stuff.
But what happens is when acustomer is buying the bike.
If they have some idea of whatthey want, that bike is more
likely to be adaptable to them.

And you guys can set it up from that, and
that's a that's a businessdecision.

So that company has now said, hey,
we are making a bike that ismore adaptable to the customers,
rather than trying to makeeverybody convinced that our way
is the only way.
So I I don't know which one'sbetter, because sometimes
companies are like, yeah, youjust added a bunch of weight and
a complexity that didn't needto be there, because our way is
better and people just need toget used to it and they'll enjoy

(01:04:14):
it once they do.
That's a genuine philosophythat I see.
People you know, manufacturershave, you know, so it's two
different ways of looking at it.

I think there's value there too, in
terms of the mindset of thecustomer too, of the mindset of
the customer too.
This is getting into my likeuser-centric design elements too
, where there's a bit of anaspiration sometimes when you're
looking at a mountain bike andsaying, hey, I can make it a
cross country bike to go dothese trails and I can make it
an enduro bike to go do thesetrails, and the reality is you

(01:04:46):
probably won't but it helpsjustify the sticker price price.

Right to a certain extent, this can be when
you're talking to your wife,this can be five different bikes
.

Well , and yeah, I, I do yeah, a lot
of people will come in andthey're like questions will be
real specific, like what's thehead angle, you know, and
they're they're trying to decidebetween two bikes of one,
that's a 65.2 and one'sa 65.5head angle, and I'm like just
change your rear tire pressureand you'll get.

(01:05:18):
You know what I mean.
Like it's little changes, youknow.
Or you could add 10 millimetersto your fork, or you could.
You know, there's all kinds ofdifferent ways, but they'll just
get so indexed indexed ontothose numbers.

You can think pink bike for that, I'm pretty
sure.

It's also.
It's also this kind ofphilosophy of buying something
from your couch.
You can't talk to somebody andkind of get an idea of what the
character of this product is.
When you're buying it from acouch, you can just look at the
numbers and you can just startanalyzing it and
cross-referencing and you lose alittle bit of that analyzing it
and cross-referencing and youlose a little bit of that like

(01:05:53):
yeah, the numbers say this, butit rides like this, you know.
And so then then, uh, you know,then the bike company reacts
because they're like oh, thesenumbers are the ones that are
selling and these aren't.
And so now we've got to work onthose numbers and they've kind
of lose touch with.
There is sometimes when youhave to hold a customer's hand
and bring them to something andshow them what they need, and
then there's other times whenthe customer says this is what I

(01:06:13):
want and you have to be able togive them that.
So there's two different ways.

So Julian, what are you most excited about
relative to mountain bikes inthe future?

Oh, I'm interested in seeing where, like
, multi-material bikes go.
Uh, not just aluminum.
Uh, I think there's some reallycool stuff.
Obviously, printed tie is kindof this like oh yeah, unicorn
material that we keep on tryingto find a price point and a and

(01:06:46):
a use case for.
Uh, I think there's going to bekind of this evolution that
could happen through that orother, you know, bonding
materials and stuff bondingscome back into fashion.

I mean it really has yeah, yeah.
When aluminum first hit themarket in bikes, bonding was the
only way I remember the oldtrek bikes were bonded right
yeah and uh, carbon too, andlike I don't know what changed
to go away from that, do youknow?
Like I mean, I know Trek hadcorrosion issues and dissimilar
metals.
You know they'd have aluminumlugs and carbon tube sets, you

(01:07:20):
know?

I think a portion of that was just like.
Once you found out how to makethe whole bike out of carbon at
a cost that could make sense toa customer, they stopped caring
about the lugs, yeah yeah, it'strue.

Yeah , so you think it was just an
evolution of like you know,trying to introduce carbon and
bringing it in and then figuringout techniques and then making
it affordable.
Or do you think they I, a lotof people think there's, you
know, uh, like some sort of likecabal that everybody talks and
they all figure this out,because it's not like they all
were like, hey, we'll justslowly ratchet the price up with

(01:07:55):
these and this is how we'll dothat, and eventually they'll pay
for carbon.
You know, like yeah exactly it'sjust technology that slowly
comes out, and they learn fromthe old one.

So yeah, yeah , well, and you can see there's
phases when they're trying tofigure stuff out too.
Like you know, early 90s wasthe crazy time for that, right,
yeah, there was a time whenspecialized was selling the
basically the same bike inaluminum, chromo and bonded,
yeah, and like a steel soft tailversion, like they had just the

(01:08:26):
craziest ump, like range.
Uh, you know if, if, I'd bepretty excited if we saw a bit
more range come back in terms ofmaterials and approaches well,
yeah, there was a whole periodwhere they were trying to stick
carbon in the fork in any waythey could.

Uh, they had a sid fork that had
just carbon windows in it, justlittle sections that were carbon
.
It wasn't even the whole thing.
And then, you know, the futureshock was was basically a judy
with carbon legs, you know.
And so like uh, yeah, they werejust like carbon's awesome.
Let's stick it wherever we can.
So so are we.

It's funny like you're asking about future
too, but we're talking aboutsomething from 30 years ago.
It is so important to payattention to what we have done
in the past because, it's solike cyclical, and everything
that we've done in cycling isgonna come back as a trend at
some point well, I've alreadyseen neon like, uh, neon, I

(01:09:19):
really want.

Like purple, anodized.
Oh wait, it came back.
Like all of that stuff cameback oh, fanny packs, I want
them.
Oh wait, they came back mullets.

I was happy to see that you didn't have a
mullet uh, yeah, there is somehairstyles that I just can't
handle yeah, I was talking aboutmullet styles, not mullet bikes
, but oh, mullet bikes.

Yeah , no, I was talking about mullet
hairstyles, I know, yeah julianare we in for.

you know I I kind of feel like we're in an
evolutionary period in inmountain bike kind of
manufacturing design right now,like things are kind of
happening slowly and there's andI'm having a hard time envision
any revolutions coming.
Is there any revolutions comingthat you know about, like any
major changes that are going tochange the game?

I mean, there has to be good reason for it,
right?
Like we look at the last kindof like disruption you know
almost what 10 years ago, withone by and boost and like that
whole thing and 29ers takingover, like it all kind of
happened all at once.

Yeah.

I don't know if we're going to see that much
in the next couple of years.
I think everyone's been realfocused on e-bikes.

Yeah, so the 36 , so there's no 36 are coming in
a major way.
They exist.

I've seen them, but I don't even know if
you or I can ride them yeah.

Yeah , they're, they're crazy.
I I almost bought a medium 36or like, to fit me.
It's like it was two wheelswith like a stick in between
them, like that's all it was sofunny yeah, the day one of those
comes through our door, I'mgonna have a hard time making it
look good.

Yeah, it's a bit of a wagon, uh, so was it
jones?

Dane (The Suspension Guru (01:11:02):
jones , I think, had a 36 and it was a
good looking bike.
I think it was a jones.

It's hard to interesting to know, but uh so
so we mentioned e-bikes,everything's e-bikes, and like
did some.
I don't think I've talked aboutthese metrics on the podcast
before but, like 2023, at leastin the United States, there was
1.7 million mountain bikes sold.
25% of those were e-bikes.
And then if you look at thecompound adjusted growth rates,
like you kind of project out andthere's a lot of assumptions in

(01:11:28):
these but if you kind ofproject out, it's like a 3.7
growth rate for mountain bikesand a 15% growth rate for
e-mountain bikes.
So what that means is thatsomewhere around 2035, we're
going to sell more e-mountainbikes, then we're going to sell
acoustic mountain bikes, orpeople are going to buy more
e-mountain bikes.
Are you guys seeing that in theprojects that you're working?

(01:11:48):
Is it shifting towards morefocus on electric mountain bikes
than acoustic mountain bikes?

Yeah, absolutely it's.
More than half of our projectsright now are e-bikes and it's
growing every year.
I think one of the things we'reseeing is a little bit more
kind of like paralleldevelopment where, uh, the
e-bikes are getting a lotlighter as the tech increase, uh

(01:12:18):
like improves.
Obviously, these batteries aregetting smaller and lighter, as
well as the motors gettingsmaller and lighter and more
effective.
So we're seeing a little bitmore kind of like parity between
an acoustic and electric, or anelectric version of the same
bike or a bike that's meant forthe same purpose at least.

(01:12:38):
Yeah, right, so, and we've seenthis for a while too, where, uh
, you know, down tubes growingon mountain bikes without
batteries, yeah, yeah, and they,they, they kind of look.
It's like, oh well, if I lookat a lightweight e-bike versus
just a regular enduro bike, thatthose down tubes are almost the
same yeah, I think we're gonnacontinue to see those things

(01:13:00):
kind of mesh.
Um, it's incredibly expensive,obviously, to develop e-bikes
from the ground up every timethere's a new technology shift,
so I would hope that there's alike for sustainability elements
.
I hope that, uh, at leastthere's like some more
compatibility considerationsthere where we're not just kind

(01:13:22):
of throwing these things away,uh, but uh, you know, we're not
as focused on the component sideof things.
We're more working onintegrating those things into
the bikes we're working on oncethey're in development or once
they're released.

So, oh, interesting, I got to imagine
it's like a designer's dreamthat these things are getting
smaller because from anaesthetics perspective, like my
Rocky mountain altitude, powerplay.
I love the bike, it rides great.

Yeah , it looks awful, it's like a
tank yeah, it's so big, it'sjust got that big triangle, it's
just huge like the tubes arelike this big, like a foot
around or something's crazy yeah, it's, I had the pivot um
shuttle sl, which was one uh,with a fazua motor system in it,
one of the most hidden, likepeople never knew I was on a

(01:14:10):
e-bike, you know you couldbarely see it because you know
with a lot of e-bikes they'llhave kind of the the motor is
shown, you know, one for coolingpurposes and two because it's
fairly wide and so they don'tbring the carbon down around it,
they just let it kind of mountto the underside and so they're
a little more obvious.
And this fazua system fits somuch inside the bike you don't
even notice it.

(01:14:30):
And I can't tell you how manytimes I've been on the trail,
like intersection, talking torandom people, and they're like,
yeah, those e-bikes, blah, blah.

And I'm like I have a e-bike and they have no
idea, you know, because it's sosvelte and so small, you know
so yeah, and as, as those partsbecome more efficient, it's like
you, you'll see a lot of thoseand it'll be unnoticeable, right
, yeah?

well , so I I was watching something
the other day and they weretalking about cheating and
bicycling and they were goingthrough kind of a history at one
point in one of the tours longtime ago back in the the day
someone got caught with a motorno, no, even before that, when
they started this program, theywere talking about how they were
putting lead in the waterbottle.
So when you got past a waterbottle at the top of a hill,

(01:15:20):
they would pass you a leadfilled one and you'd put it in
the bike and you use the weightof the water bottle on the
descent to gain more speed.
And so that's some of the earlyearly, early, but as you go
through, this program, you.
They start going up more tomodern time and they talk about
motor doping and and and thenthey put a statistic that I had

(01:15:40):
never seen, that I didn't knowbecause people I remember it
coming around and everybody likebeing concerned about it and
they were like, um, what theywere doing?
Heat cameras to see if there'sa motor and as they rode by they
could see heat signatures.
They put something up that atleast four people were caught
and fined like $20,000.

In like pro races.

And banned for like six years doing
this and I didn't know anyonewas actually caught.
I thought it was a fear or itknow, or it was low level stuff.

Julian, are you guys putting any secret motors
in bikes?

No, but if you can find the guy who did,
maybe we'll hire him, yeah.

So there was a company that did it
and they actually sell the motorsystem and the bike and it
basically goes in your seat tubeand it has a worm drive that
goes down to a gear that youmount to your spindle or crank
and so when you assemble thebike it could go in a regular
bike, as long as the bike hadthe parameters.
And they got to where they wereactually producing their own

(01:16:43):
bikes, probably having somebrand make a frame for them, and
then they would put the batteryin the seat pouch and this was
a hidden motor that they weremarketing, basically as an
assist for people to go on aride that was unnoticeable and
that way people would avoidridicule or or what have you and

(01:17:03):
I think the the nice way to saythat is to help um, you know,
help people that are losingtheir fitness with age or what
have you, and they're notkeeping up with their group
rides, maybe be able to continueto do that.
That's a big portion of thee-bikes are people that are just
getting to the point wherethey're not getting out and
enjoying themselves as muchbecause their physical

(01:17:25):
limitations, and the e-bikebridges that and makes it longer
.

Well, julian man, I really appreciate you
talking with us and it's.
It's been educational.
Unfortunately, you won't tellus any of the bikes that you're
working on.

I know, man, I you know, do you
guys have like a counselor onhand to help you with?
that Cause I feel like seriouslylike I feel like if you made
all this cool stuff, you gotta,like you gotta tell somebody.
Do you just walk in like everyday and tell somebody that else
that works there that you madethat?

(01:18:01):
Like how, how does that work?
Like, how do you release that?
You know, that um, energy andthat excitement that you just
made something cool and maybeyou get to see it out there
actually doing well, like what I?
I can imagine that's a drawback, you know.

Oh, it's, it's challenging, for sure, but
uh, you know, we've got ourgroup chat teams where you know
everyone lights up when we seesomething launch.
Uh, that we've, we've worked onand it's, it's always exciting.
Now can you tell your?
That's like a gratification.
Hopefully, for most of usoverweighs the, the the need for
us to say anything.

(01:18:35):
So it's.

Can you tell your significant others
, or do you have to keep it fromthem?

And I'm saying that as a joke, I'm
saying that as a joke, but thenI'm, it's occurring to me.

is it's actually a real question?

The thing is, I don't know if my wife would
know the brands that I'm workingfor.

Yeah, my wife doesn't know what a fork is on a
bike I'm like it's the, it'sthe part that I work on like
it's how we pay the bills.
Julian, do you got any finalthoughts for our listeners?

uh, no, I mean, I think it was really nice
chatting with you guys.
It's always nice chatting withother industry people and you
know, uh, I invite you guys upto come say hi whenever you guys
have a chance, because it isreally cool to to see how
everything's done.
And, uh, you know you might seesome secrets.
I hopefully not.

I I'm down I'm down with I.
I've gotten really good atsigning ndas, so yeah, there you
go when we're doing the whenwe're finalizing the.

You know the the terms of the deal for
faction bike studio south.
We'll come up to quebec and wecan see you guys up there fbt
faction bikes, tucson so I I'mtelling you, man, I already know
where you're gonna ride.

Like we just need to find the place
that's closest to the trailsthat you want to use the most,
so you don't have to drive there.

So yeah, yeah , that's the ideal is that
you're right there at thetrailhead, right I you know
shimano has been in town uhdoing uh products so we can get
shimano here and get factionhere, but I mean already all
these other companies.

I'm just.
I'm not trying to make him feelbad or like they're behind the
times I'm just saying, there'sall these other companies that
come here, so many engineers,yeah there's all this other
companies that have decided thisis a good idea.
If his bosses wanted to kind ofkeep up with everybody else,
they may consider it I can't.

Imagine four months a year.
More testing is you know, it'sa business benefit.
That is a huge business benefit.

I'll do the strategic assessment for you, if
you want thank you very much,for sure, julian.
Thanks a lot, man.
We really appreciate your time,yeah cool thanks guys, thanks
man.

Thank you.

All Episodes

096 - The Art and Science of Mountain Bike Design: Faction Bike Studio's Design Lead (Guest: Julian Richardson)

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}096 - The Art and Science of Mountain Bike Design: Faction Bike Studio's Design Lead (Guest: Julian Richardson)