097 - Bike Shop Confessions: How MTB Suspension Experts Really Choose Components - Mountain Cog

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dane (00:21):
what, the what the hell are you doing?

Mike "Babyfoot" Jones (00:26):
We're trying to record you.

Josh (00:29):
You're watching your show.
I thought something was wrongwith the equipment.

Dane (00:31):
Are you watching?

Josh (00:31):
your shows.

I am watching my shows.
My shows are on.

Dane (00:36):
Sorry guys, Nana, can you mute your show?

Josh (00:39):
Hey, tell us about nipple management.

Derrick Kampfer (00:42):
So nipple management.
So there's three basiccategories of nipple management.
Number one is avoidance, right.
So what's the safest form ofsex Abstinence, right.
Okay, yeah yeah, just no shirt.
So if you avoid materialsaltogether, then you're avoiding
nipple management.
So, avoidance being number one,it's very important.

Dane (00:58):
The second one Son of a bitch.
I thought you guys, oh no, thisis good, this is good.
Okay, I'm going to let this go,but I have to clarify.

after this, the second one is lubrication right
oh my.

God.

Things are moving, Things are moving right.
So a little bit of ointment, alittle bit of aloe vera
something like that, maybe someVaseline.
Everything's working.

Dane (01:20):
I thought you guys were serious.

I knew it was a good idea to have him come on
with us, and the third one beingmaterial Nice soft shirt.
Everything is going good.

Josh (01:28):
Like this one right here.

Things are moving.

Josh (01:32):
All right, I'll come back to why we're talking about
nipple management, but it isFriday night.

Dane (01:36):
Yep Friday Snowy Friday night on the.

Josh (01:38):
MCP, and we are actually sitting around a table in Sedona
, Arizona, all attending theSedona Bike Fest, where Danny
and I are out talking todifferent people in the industry
to try to make more connections, learn more about the products
that are coming out and ridingthe snow, apparently.

Dane (01:56):
Yeah, man, it's crazy.
You know this is the secondSnow Dona Bike Fest, second
annual, second annual.
Yeah, snow apocalypse, snowDona, snow Dona, snowdona Bike
Fest.
Second annual, second annualSnowpocalypse, snowdona,
snowdona.

Josh (02:08):
And we've got some special guests with us today also
festival riders and attendeesand avid mountain bikers.
You guys want to introduceyourself, sure, I'm?

Mike Jones.

Dane (02:19):
Mike Jones.

Mike Jones More popularly known as
Sharon the Mountain Bike.

Dane (02:22):
Yeah, sharon, well, sharon the Mountain Bike's dad, yeah,
you're known as Sharon theMountain Bike.
Well, Sharon the Mountain.

Bike's dad.
You're not actually Sharon.
The Mountain Bike Dane likes tocall me E-Mike.

Dane (02:30):
Yes, you're the human E-Bike E -Mike the human E-Bike.
He doesn't actually ride an.
E-bike though I do not no, buthe keeps up with everybody that
does.

Josh (02:41):
And Mr Nipple Manager.

Yep General Manager of Nipple Management.

Josh (02:45):
I'm sorry, I got your title wrong yeah get it right.

Dane (02:49):
You know he earned that.

Josh (02:51):
He did.

Derek Camper, derek Camper.

Josh (02:54):
Camper, camper Fur Jesus Christ Can you spell it out?

Dane (02:58):
Do we have a whiteboard?

Josh (03:01):
Is it C-A-M-P-H-E-R?

K-A-M-P-H-E-R, k-a-m-p-f-e-r.
I totally fucked up Holy shit.

Dane (03:12):
Just so everybody knows, this is a raw dog episode.

Josh (03:16):
Usually.
I promise Jesus Christ.
I've had like three sips ofwhiskey.
I was going to mention thealcohol.
Just a little bit.
We have to stay warm.
It's freaking 30 degrees.
I've had like three sips ofwhiskey.
Well, I was going to mentionthe alcohol is involved Just a
little bit.

Dane (03:25):
Just a little bit.
We have to stay warm.

Josh (03:28):
It's freaking 30 degrees outside it is cold, it's cold.

It feels like 20.

Josh (03:31):
Typically we tell our guests hey, listen, I will let
you guys listen to this episodeahead of time before we publish,
and I'll cut out anything youdon't want.
But for Mike and Derek I saidI'm not doing that.

Dane (03:41):
No, this is so, we're raw dogging it.
Yeah, this is a MA rated, MARated MA yeah.

Josh (03:47):
So we've already sworn once, or I've already sworn once
, but let's explain why.
We started the podcast withnipple management.
Maybe you can start tell uslike about the concept.

Dane (03:59):
We were at dinner and we're talking about what logo
stuff we brought from thepodcast to show off at the fest.
And we brought our hats rightand that's easy to see.
And then I said, well, Ibrought my shirt, my nipple
manager shirt, and of courseeverybody at the table is like
what?

Josh (04:17):
are you talking?

Dane (04:18):
about.
I knew what it was.
And yeah, well, mike listens sohe knows that at one point we
had an episode where we weretalking about, you know,
basically truing wheels andspokes and nipples, and I
mentioned the word nipplemanager and then I got a kick
out of it.
So I actually made Josh and Ishirts that say nipple manager
on them and they have a pictureof a bicycle nipple and we walk

(04:43):
around with them and Josh won'twear his cause.
He's embarrassed.

Josh (04:46):
No, I'm like, listen, there's like a very small person
, there's a very smallpercentage of the population
that's going to look at thisshirt.
It's got a picture of a bicyclenipple out of context.
Yeah, just just a littlebicycle nipple, and then it says
nipple manager.
And I'm like walking throughthe mall with a shirt that looks
like I got a rod and it's thisnipple manager on it and it's
like I will tell you in the nineto 12 year old.

Dane (05:09):
You know, boy, small boy, demographic, it kills.

They love it For the show.
It's no, but we're working onit.

Josh (05:18):
We've said this before 18 to 32 year old women are the
most popular demographic.
This is because we've neverdone video, yes Cause,
32-year-old women are the mostpopular demographic.

Dane (05:26):
This is because we've never done video.
Yes, because they can't seewhat we look like or the shirt
we're wearing.

No comment.

Dane (05:32):
So, yeah, the nipple manager shirt.
And then we got into I don'tknow how we got into nipple
conversation and I brought upthat I've had my armor.
My downhill armor has damagedmy nipples because it was
fishnet and nobody understoodthat.

Josh (05:46):
Yeah, so Dane's over here talking about his fishnet armor.
I'm like what the F is fishnetarmor when you say fishnet
everybody gets a picture.

Dane (05:55):
I know, but what do you call it?
I guess mesh, what do you callit?
Like it's, you know, anybodywho's listened to this that has
had a set of armor.
You know like a, so so forpeople that maybe don't ride
downhill or didn't buy this typeof armor, but there's armor
that's sewn into a fabric andand make it like a t-shirt, uh,
and they sew the pads onto thet-shirt so they don't move.

Josh (06:22):
So when you're wearing it, they don't move when you crash.
So yeah, I saw that same get upat fascinations in Tucson.
No, you crash.
So yeah, I saw that same get upat fascinations in Tucson?

Dane (06:32):
No, you didn't.
I did.
That was latex First of all, um, and you weren't supposed to
tell people.
Oh sorry, my bad, my bad, um,but but this, um, this armor
that I would wear would be aheavy netting that was open.
And then, because we ride inArizona, it was really hot and
I'm like I need it's too hot, soI'm not going to wear a shirt
underneath, I'm just going towear the armor, and then I wear
my jersey over the top and Ijust my nipples went so raw Like

(06:52):
they were so damn.

My nipples are red-lined right now.
Yeah, they are, yeah.

Dane (06:59):
And you know how it is.
When you like touch yournipples, they stand to attention
, and so that makes it worsebecause that fishnet-like
substance is grating them and so, yeah, it was very painful.
That's where that came fromFishnet armor.

Josh (07:17):
This is how you describe it.

Dane (07:18):
I showed you a picture.

Josh (07:19):
You showed me a picture of something.

Dane (07:22):
And it was damn it, I'm gonna, we're gonna have to put
this up on the, on the facebook,so people can see what this
stuff looks like.
It's just a very breathable wayto put armor onto a shirt
instead of having a shirt, so,but you need to wear an
undershirt because of it,otherwise you'll get nipple
damage, which is the thirdcategory yes, yep, exactly

(07:43):
fabric, yep, fabric.

Yep, it sounds, but it can't be very important.
Maybe you should talk,otherwise you'll get nipple
damage, which is the thirdcategory.
Yes, nipple management right.
Yep, exactly Fabric, yep,fabric, it sounds an avoidance,
but it can be very important.

Maybe you should talk to the guys from
Faction, faction.

Josh (07:51):
Yeah, dude, about nipple management.

Dane (07:53):
I think that would be under their well, I guess, if
they were designing armorClothes.
Armor, yeah, but yeah know thatthat was denisey.
I don't know if I'm pronouncingthat correct, but they're a
motorcycle armor company, and soI'm guessing that they usually
put that over something elsebecause motorcyclists probably
would have nipple damage tobetter nipple management than

(08:14):
mountain bikers dude, that's.
It scarred me for life that youknow how long ago that was
let's see no, no, I mean notphysically

not literally mentally.

Dane (08:24):
I was scarred for life because nipples are sensitive
and you don't need somethinglike grading them on the way as
you're cruising down at 30 milesan hour trying to avoid rocks.

Josh (08:33):
You were talking about something else related to
nipples.
What was that?

He doesn't want to tell it.
I don't remember it?

Josh (08:41):
No, it was something about nibbling.

Oh God.

No, we don't.
Is that too far?
No, I don't remember it.
No, it was something aboutnibbling, oh God.
No, we don't.
Is that too far?
No, I don't remember thecontext.
It's already an NSFW episode.

Dane (08:54):
Now it sounds weird.

Josh (08:55):
Now it sounds weird Because there's no context.
It was weird, it was weird youstarted it.

Derek, I don't know what you're saying.
I was enjoying a meal at afamily restaurant in nipple
management with a bunch ofrandos.

Josh (09:09):
Yeah, we should mention that today's the first day we've
met Derek.
Yeah, it's a chill vibe I enjoyit.

Well, we weren't very quiet in the
restaurant while we were talkingabout nipples so I'm sure there
was some earmuffs going on.

Josh (09:20):
It went from World War II history or no, actually
pre-Revolutionary War historyright.
Yeah To mountain bikes, yep Tonipples.

Dane (09:28):
Well, and then, yeah, sounds like a logical
presumption.
Yeah Right, you get a bunch ofpeople in a room and get them
fed and get some alcohol.
Something's going to happen.
So I'm just saying, nipples maycome out.

Josh (09:46):
Anyways, I have not really worn.
I have worn the nipple managershirt one time but I don't
normally wear it because I'mworried that people, that the
small percentage of thepopulation that actually get it
would would laugh, but everyoneelse would be like that's a
weirdo.

Dane (09:53):
Well, but that's okay.
Who do you?
Who, I mean?
I care about what people think,but I don't care if somebody is
like that guy's wearing a weirdshirt.
That's, I mean, that's.
There's nothing wrong with that.
We wear weird shirts all thetime.
How many people are like.
If they didn't put cycles afterpivot cycles on his shirt,
people would be like is that a?

(10:13):
Is that a?

you know, a friend's reference from when
they were moving the couch, howmany people get that reference
Right, so like.

Josh (10:17):
I don't get it.
What's the pivot?

You're barely old enough to get that
reference.

Yeah.

Dane (10:23):
What's the?
I'm an old soul.
Oh so in friends, in friends,so like when I when I first
started carrying pivots.
I can't tell you how many timesI got this, this meme, sent to
me where it's, I don't know thefriends.

Yeah, there's Ross and Chandler.

Dane (10:37):
Yeah, and there, and he's like pivot, pivot, pivot.

Josh (10:48):
And and so like now, if you ride a pivot and you hear
some guy go pivot, we gotta askchris quick alice, is that where
you came up the name?

Dane (10:53):
no, no, because oh, that's uh, I don't know what you came
first what came first?

Josh (10:56):
well, because he had tightest.

I think, friends is before pivot.
Yeah, you're talking late 90smid late yeah that.

Dane (11:02):
Yeah, yeah, so, yeah, definitely so we can find out
when.

Well, so pull that, Jamie pull that up what's
cool.

Yeah, jamie, throw that up on the
board.

Dane (11:12):
Get your executive assistant, jamie, to help out.
What so?
What's crazy is pivot, you know, makes full suspension bikes.
When they came out, they onlymade full suspension bikes, so
they named them pivot, which isawesome.
But then a few years later,they made a hardtail.
And do you know the name ofthat hardtail?

Josh (11:31):
non-pivot, close, super close I got the data, I got the
answer.

Dane (11:35):
Okay, but let me finish my quiz.
Go okay, do you know it?

Josh (11:38):
I didn't even hear the question non, the hardtail pivot
.

Dane (11:41):
Do you know what it's called?

Josh (11:42):
hardtail pivot, I don't know.
Oh man, I'm so disappointed howabout you?

Dane (11:44):
you've got a shirt on, so I'm wondering if you the
hardtail pivot.
Do you know what it's calledHardtail pivot?
I don't know.
Oh man, I'm so disappointed.
How about you?
You've got a shirt on, so I'mwondering if you actually know.

I do not know.

Josh (11:51):
Was he alive, though, when this started?
How old are you, derek?
I'm 36.
Oh, he was definitely alive.
Yeah, yeah, you look wayyounger than you actually are
awesome, I thought you wereolder, clean living.

Dane (12:10):
Okay, the answer to the quiz is the the hard tail pivot
is called a pivot less.
Oh, that's funny yeah, that'sso, that's clever.
I think it's clever, so pivotcycles was founded in 2007.

Josh (12:18):
Okay, after chris uh left titus left tit, which he ran for
17 years before starting Pivot,and the TV series Friends ran
from 1994 to 2004.

Dane (12:29):
Wow.

Josh (12:31):
So Friends came before Pivot.

Dane (12:33):
It could have been Friends influenced the name.
Chris was Titus, though, wasn'the?
Yeah, he was Chris was Titus.
It started in his garage, yeah,and he had a long life.
There's a lot of differentversions of what happened for
him to go to Pivot, but most ofit is he ended up getting, I
think, financing and Brian Masonmay chime in at some point and

(12:56):
correct me, but I think he gotfinancing through an investment
company and they started to turnthe direction that he didn't
want to go and he wanted to moveon to something else.
He left, signed a non-competeand I swear to god, the story is
that the day that non-compete,like uh, expired is when he
showed up with a pivot, like afull-on built pivot, it's like

(13:18):
leo fender for fender guitarsman, that same thing.

Josh (13:20):
No story.
Like like I play a gnoguitarist is the guitars I play.

Dane (13:23):
Yeah.

Josh (13:23):
And he left fender and then he went and did Ernie ball,
and then he left Ernie ball andwent and started G and L.
Oh yeah, and the L and G and Lis Leo.

Leo fender.

Josh (13:31):
And it's like the evolution of what this?
I don't even know why the fuck.

Dane (13:33):
I'm talking about my my, we like origin stories.
Yeah, we like to know wherestuff came from.

Josh (13:41):
Well if, you're looking for a great guitar like a badass
, the future of what aStratocaster would have been at
Leo Stade, try a G&L Nice.

Dane (13:49):
Legacy.
So that's why I always give alittle history on DVO, because
people may not have ever heardof DVO.
But as soon as I bring upMarzocchi back in the day then
some people can connect and gooh, so remind the listeners that

(14:09):
didn't listen to that DVOepisode about the history
between Marzocchi and DVO.
Well, so the guys in NorthAmerica, marzocchi started to
get a little frustrated with theway the company was going.
Same kind of situation.
Somebody came in, boughtMarzocchi Italian Marzocchi and
kind of started to change theway they did things Italian
Marzocchi and kind of started tochange the way they did things
and that was causing a lot ofproblems, a lot of QC issues

(14:31):
they were having.
It was just a departure fromwhat they were and they were
just a really solid brand for acertain type of writer.
And then it kind of went awayfrom that and the guys at the
North American office were justkind of fed up.
They had a lot of ideas thatweren't getting any kind of
traction and people weren'treally listening to them and so

(14:51):
they just up and all left andthey got an investor and started
DVO.
And that's kind of where DVOcame from, and it lets you know
that it didn't pop up fromnowhere.
It came from a lot ofexperience and a lot of know-how
and so we got a lot of dvo fansin this room.

Josh (15:09):
Right now I've got a dvo on the back of my my bike's
front and rear powerpoint youryour bike's front and rear.

Dane (15:14):
I think, mike, you got it as well front and rear yeah
derek you ever read.

Dvo have you ever ridden dvo.

Dane (15:19):
Yeah, have you heard of it I have yeah, have you.
So just because, jason no, I'veseen.

I mean, I'm an avid YouTuber.

Dane (15:26):
Not a YouTuber, but I watch a lot of.

YouTube obviously but yeah, I'm pretty
interested in it, but I haven'tworn out enough equipment to
justify buying a very expensiveFord.

Dane (15:36):
Oh man, it's worth it.
It completely changed my bikeReally.

Yeah.

I've heard great things about it.

It made it feel like a completely
different bike.

Dane (15:44):
Yeah, yeah, it's good stuff, and.
I mean we're not paid by DVO,just so everybody knows so you
talk about it incessantly.

Josh (15:50):
By the way, if you want to deep dive on this episode 81 of
the Mountain Cod podcast, wegot Ronnie Dillon from DVO.
It was a great episode.
It was fun to do Ronnie's superfamous.
But, mike, why you say that itchanged your bike?
Like specifically, like,explain your experience here.

It just felt more stuck to the ground.
I felt more in control and Itold Dane he talked about this a
couple yeah, a couple episodesI've mentioned.
I felt slow because I wasn't onthe edge of disaster.

Dane (16:18):
Yes, yeah, I was.

I felt more in control and it was just
more comfortable.

Dane (16:23):
You said you were going faster, and then your Strava
told you different.

No, I thought I was going slower.

Dane (16:27):
I'm sorry, yeah, sorry, it felt slow.

Yeah, yeah, but then my Strava told me
different.

Dane (16:31):
Yeah, yeah.

And so yeah.
So now I, when I feel slow, Ihave to check just to make sure
I actually am.

Josh (16:39):
So you've told that story, but I didn't know that was Mike
you were talking about, that'sMike.

Dane (16:42):
Yeah, oh, wow, mike and Sharon.

Josh (16:44):
Mike and Sharon.
Interesting.
Well, I love the rear shock,the coilover.
It's a Jade X that I have and Ijust have the Jade, I don't
have the X.
What's the difference between aJade X and a Jade X Jade.

Dane (16:53):
X has a climb switch, a little bit more trail orientated
.
The Jade yeah, you're not goingto give me the downhill one.
Honestly you could, there'snothing wrong with it.
But the Jade X came out andgave what people wanted, which
was a climb switch so that youcould turn, because it's a coil,
and so you could then turn thedamper to a middle mode, which

(17:16):
kind of calmed it down, or to afirm mode, which some people
call climb, but it basicallymakes it give a lot of
personality and lets you kind ofmatch the shock to the bike.
So on the rockies I haven't felta need for a climb switch.
Personally I don't, even if Iget on the road I may notice it
bob a little bit, but I haven'tfelt the need like I'm losing

(17:37):
energy on my rocky and so theclimb switch isn't that critical
and that's why mike doesn't.
I mean mike is like the humane-bike, like the guy can climb
as fast uphill as I can on mye-bike and uh, so it's not
really a need on that bike, butsome bikes the design will
really require that.

Yeah, and .

Dane (17:54):
I don't feel any pedal Bob at all.

Yeah.

Dane (17:56):
Yeah, and so, um and Josh, you just got the newest version
of whatever they had, and andum, that was really more at.
The Jade X is kind of replacingthe Jade.
The Jade's going away.

Josh (18:08):
And then you had me try.
Was it the diamond or the Onyx,I can't remember.

Dane (18:12):
You're on the Onyx, I was cause I gave it back to you.

Josh (18:15):
Oh yeah, that's right and I never went when, so I had a
problem.
I just never got it dialed.
Perfectly Right it was.
It was sticking at the top forme.
Yep, did you have a hard timesetting yours up your fork?
No, because they did it for meyeah, they set it up for me.

Dane (18:30):
Yeah, we.
So that's probably one of thethings we talked about with
ronnie is one of the.
Some of the generations of dvohave a harder time getting set
up, and if you know how to do it, it seems easy.
But then if you go on a websiteand try and read how to do it,
it seems really confusing.
So it's like sex.
Uh no, what are you talkingabout?
Is that the A, the L or the M?

(18:53):
Yeah, wait, yeah.

Are you back on nipples?

No, I'm not.
What's going on now?
No, I'm not, so no.

Dane (18:59):
You know what sucks DVO's not know what sucks dvo is not
here at sedona?
How come?
Uh, you know they have to makechoices of where their their
trucks go, and that is always aa thing I think they're gonna
gear up for for a sea otter andbe out there I heard rumors that
they were recently in tucsontesting.

Josh (19:17):
They were, and I did not.

Dane (19:18):
I I will admit that I did not make a good effort to find
out what they're testing.
I know that it was with a bikecompany and they were doing some
testing.

Josh (19:29):
Just helping that bike company dial in their products
for that bike Likely.

Dane (19:33):
This is all assumptions.
If I had to infer that thathopefully this means that this
bike company is going to startcoming equipped with DVO, and
then I'm going to be reallyexcited.

Josh (19:42):
I also heard a rumor that there was a bike company in town
at the same time.

Dane (19:46):
That's the bike company.
Okay, yeah.

Josh (19:47):
We probably shouldn't say that on the podcast.
I'm trying not to yeah Causecause.

Dane (19:50):
These are buddies and we went out and had dinner and hung
out, and I don't want to.

Josh (19:54):
I don't want to you don't want to violate yeah.

Dane (19:58):
They didn't make you.
My assumption is that thatcompany probably is talking to
DVO and doing testing becausethey may want to put them on
their bikes, which I think DVOreally needs.
One of the problems I'veidentified with DVO is that they
make an awesome product buttheir marketing department isn't
, as you know and hopefullythose guys don't get mad at me

(20:21):
for saying this, but it's justnot the same level.

Josh (20:23):
We talked about that in the podcast.

Dane (20:24):
They said yeah, but it's just not the same level.

Josh (20:25):
We talked about that in the podcast.
They said, yeah, but I tell youwhat, when we were at, when I
was at Cedar cause you didn't gowith me last year I was
surprised at the number of bikesI saw.
Yes, yeah.

Dane (20:41):
Expect with with DVO and I think booth.
And we looked beyond that boothin the back of it and one of
the company's bikes was up onthe fence with full DVO on it
and that company does not offerDVO and so that is a rider's
bike for that company, sosomebody that should say
something.
Yeah, and so I kind of see thatall over the place where you're

(21:01):
like it doesn't come on the bikethat they sell, but then you go
look at their stable of bikesand you'll see it show up on
their stuff.

Josh (21:08):
Derek, what kind of suspension do you ride on your
bikes?

I have two separate bikes, but on I have a
pivot switchblade and I have aFox 36 on the front back and Fox
factory 36 on the front and Ihave a fancy.
I got a Fox float in the back,okay, and I just actually
actually, this is jason's oldbike sitting right over here the
specialized that I have yeah,yeah, he's got a, he's slumming
it yeah I'm excited I have aspecialized levo in this.

Josh (21:33):
I ride specialized.
Don't listen to dane, he's aspecialized hater specialized
are great bikes.

It's got a rhythm and a 36 rhythm and a
float on the back.
So I have a question for youbecause I really I'm really
intrigued on people that that soyou hate specialized but no, I
don't.

Dane (21:49):
I got to clarify.
I like to make fun ofspecialized cause we don't carry
them, and but I do have toadmit that they are a good bike.
There's nothing wrong with them.
There's, uh, I, they're toopopular, they're too cool.
Well, no, that's what it is.

Josh (22:02):
That's what it is.
He's trying to be punk rock, itis.
Yeah, like everyone hates track, yeah.
How do you feel?

Dane (22:06):
about.

Stram and Shimano.

Dane (22:08):
So yeah, exactly.

Josh (22:09):
We can get into that later .
Everybody knows.

I got a free shirt from Shimano.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm a Shimanofanboy.
So the first question you askedme have I ever heard of DVO?
Right, would you ask me?
Have I ever heard of Fox?
Probably not, because they'rethey're marketing.
If they're good at anything, ifthey make a crappy fork,
they're good at marketing, right.

Dane (22:32):
Yeah.

And how many people don't know that Fox
racing and Fox suspension aretwo separate entities?

Dane (22:36):
Well, so, so there's Fox head and Fox tail.

And that's tricky.
Not a lot of people know that,right?

Dane (22:41):
No, yeah, they think they're the same.
In fact, I was just at Fox onWednesday and we were talking
about that very thing.

Josh (22:46):
Wait a minute, guys.
You guys are going to have toexplain this to me, because I
don't know what you're talkingabout.

So Fox Racing being like the protective, like
the helmets, the pads, theshirts, all that kind of stuff,
with Fox Suspension beingexactly like your suspension,
like your motorcycle trucks sotwo divisions of the same
company or two separate entitiesof the same name, so I believe
they're brothers used to be usedto be.

Dane (23:08):
They're different owners, I believe.
Now I don't quote me because Idon't know the details on that,
but they have both made a verybig effort to try and separate
and not be considered the samecompany.
Yes and so, um, so yeah, wealways say fox head and fox tail
.
So fox suspension is the tailand Fox head.
So if you see a sticker on acar and it's a Fox head, that'll

(23:30):
be the apparel helmets, thingslike that.
And if you see the Fox logo andyou see a tail coming off of it
, that'll be the suspensioncompany.

Josh (23:38):
I've seen that.
Can I read some stuff?
Yeah, absolutely so.
Fox apparel, fox racing and Foxsuspension Factory are not the
same company anymore, thoughthey share a common origin.
Fox Racing, which makes appareland productive gear for
motocross and mountain biking,was founded in 1974 by Jeff Fox
as Moto X Fox Fox Factory, whichmakes suspension components

(24:02):
like forks and shocks, wasoriginally part of the same
company.
However, in 2001, thesuspension division was sold and
became fox factory, operatingas a separate company from fox
racing.

I didn't know that man thank you for teaching
me something new today so myquestion is say, my fork, my
fork blows out, I need a newfork.
As the expert, as the, as thespecialist right that
understands this, what would yousay to try to convince me to go
to DVO, if you know for a factthat DVO is a better?
I'm not saying that it is yeah,but in your opinion it is.

Dane (24:32):
Okay, that's the key word, so that's something that we as
a society need to say more.
Is this opinion or is this fact?

We talked about this on the way up here.

Dane (24:42):
Yeah, yeah, you have to make sure that when you're
helping somebody, and so in myposition, where I'm helping
people as a professional and I'mtrying to help them through a
decision process, I need to makesure that I separate my opinion
from facts.
And so if you say how is a foxheavier or lighter than a dvo,
that I can give you a factualanswer.

(25:04):
Does it ride better?
That's going to be an opinionand different people will have
different needs.
So when we're sellingsuspension, we really have to
talk to the customer to helpthem understand what they can do
for them, and then also so wecan understand what they're
looking for.
And so that is the tricky thing, cause we were talking about
how, as this society moves awayfrom talking to salespeople or

(25:28):
somebody, they start readingabout it or they start looking
at a screen to get their answers, or we've talked about this on
the podcast they go to YouTubeand they watch a video about
somebody writing that stuff andit gets really diluted and not
specific to them.

And that's what.

Dane (25:49):
You're just pushing buttons, I'm not just pushing
buttons, man, I'm callingbullshit.

Josh (25:52):
Okay, listen, as a bike shop owner and the suspension
guru, you appreciate all theproducts and you have to be
Switzerland.
You have to be.

Dane (26:00):
So what are you saying?
Am I not answering?

Josh (26:02):
You haven't answered his question, you've told him why
you're not going to answer hisquestion.

Dane (26:06):
But let's ask him a different question.
I will answer the question.
What?

Josh (26:08):
suspension do you have on your bike DVO, on all your bikes
, not on all of them, that'strue.
What else you got that you'renot testing just to see how it
works?

Dane (26:15):
Yeah, so on my altitude, and yes, I'm testing it, but I

(26:37):
like it now.
Will it stay on?
There is the question, andthat's so.
So one of the things I askmyself is, you know if, when I
sell bikes, am I going to pullthat fork off and save it for me
, or am I going to leave it onthe bike and sell it with the
bike, and that's a big thing forme If I keep the fork.
So the current fork on my pivotshuttle is was on my um, my

(27:02):
Norco, and I kept the fork and Isaved it and it's a DVO diamond
, the SL, the new one, and so sowhen the one without OTT yeah,
so.

Josh (27:12):
I gotta tell you, you still like it.

Dane (27:13):
I still like it.
Yeah, it still does aphenomenal job.
I was really worried and Idefinitely went in, tested the
water on it before I was goingto really commit to it.
But the new SL systems thatthey're making that are no
longer OTT, are much better thanI even expected and I've been
on a few of them.
I just ordered another one formy bigger bike and so so, yeah,

(27:38):
I mean, I think they're amazing.
Now, the reason that I have tolike stall when I talk to a
customer is I, differentcustomers want different things.
So again, if you were saying,hey, I, I have to like stall
when I talk to a customer isdifferent customers want
different things.
So again, if you were saying,hey, I'm going to get rid of my
fox, what should I get?
If your fox was a StepCast 34,I probably wouldn't recommend a
diamond.
It's not the right fork, itdoesn't fit the right category

(27:59):
If you are looking for certainfeatures or if you're counting
grams or you know, depending onwhat type of rider, the DVOs
have a character to them.
They have kind of a personality.
They tend to be really focusedon being supple, really small,
bump, orientated and um, but youmay not get as precise or

(28:19):
refinements in the damper as youmay on a different brand.

Josh (28:22):
Well, let's, let's double click on his question and run a
little experiment here sure okay, let's say that he does want to
replace.
It's the rhythm that you wantto replace.
Is that the one you're talkingabout?
Or your factory?
Which one?

Dane (28:31):
he said he has a factory.
Okay, yeah, so let's say youwant to replace that so give us
like an example of this process.

So let's say he comes into the shop comes
into the shop?

Dane (28:40):
I don't know what I want Like so, if you came in and
you're like so on op, somethingthat happens in the shop all the
time is you come in for serviceand so you come in and I'm
going to serve as this fork.
But hey, I'm thinking aboutupgrading.
You know, now, most people thathave a Fox factory, which is
their top of the line on theirbike, don't even consider
upgrading because they'vealready got the most expensive

(29:02):
fork.
Or they may come in and sayI've got last year's Fox and I
want the new grip too, and there, or do you have the new grip
too?

Josh (29:09):
So there's a new grip X.

Dane (29:10):
Yeah, grip X too.
So yeah, and so show us theprocess.
Like so.

Josh (29:14):
So he talked to Derek show us the process.

Dane (29:16):
So I would say, you know we would talk about what's one
going to give over the other.
So on dvo, for instance, do youwant more of a carpety feel?
So one of the things that Ifind on foxes and personally and
with a lot of feedback fromcustomers, is the small bump is
much harder to achieve.
That carpet like feel, where itjust feels like you're.

(29:39):
I don't know if you've everridden a bike on carpet and I
use this term all the time.
I wonder if people have everridden a bike on carpet.
But it has this super damp andlike soft ride.
You know it's not going througha ton of travel, it's not going
downstairs, it's just this,this velvety ride.
So and that, if you'researching for that, if you've

(29:59):
always felt like a little leftlet down by the Fox, you're
going to be much happier withthe DVO.
But if you come back to me andsay, no, I don't care about that
, but when I go off a huge drop,I don't want it to bottom out
or I have a hard time, you knowlike, for instance, I really
want something that I cancontrol, really finite control

(30:20):
my damper, my high speed and mylow speed on the rebound and the
compression.
You may be much better off witha Fox because they have taken
the time to split that damper upthat way, whereas the DVO
focuses on the high speed andlow speed compression.
But they have one rebound.
They haven't separated it, andso usually when you separate the

(30:42):
rebound you're doing a lot ofhigh impact events.
So like a drop or something likethat where you don't want to
feel bucked off but you want tobe able to control that
separately from your high speed,like rubble that you go through
, like a rock garden.
So imagine on a downhill you'regoing through a rock garden,
you want the suspension to staystuck to the ground, not bounce

(31:03):
you all over the place, and beable to come through without
jarring you like crazy.
But then right after that is a10-foot drop that you've got to
hit, and so your rebound may bea little set for the rock garden
, but when you do the drop it'snot as appropriate as it could
be.
So that's the time that weusually see that high-speed and
low-speed rebound needs to be.

(31:24):
It's not very common and so nota lot of manufacturers are
focusing on it.
So Fox does, because theyreally focus on the top echelon
of their riders, giving themfeedback, and so they sometimes,
I would say, prioritize thatrider over the average rider
more.

Josh (31:45):
I do need to throw a shout out, and I've talked about this
previously, but just sincewe're we're we're talking about
suspension, um well, actually Ithink I'm cutting you off, derek
.
Do you have any perspective orthoughts on what Dane just told
you?

I have a lot of questions, but um go, like I
said, I just really enjoy, like,cause I'm not'm not that smart,
like, well, I say that I'm notsmart in those areas, right, my
focus is in other areas.
Yeah, I like to be told what Ineed.
Yes, as a consumer, yep, I liketo be told what I need because,
like, are you good at fixingcars?

(32:19):
yeah, I mean well I don't know,like on the average, like at
some respect.
I may not know what I need, Imay not understand everything
that you said.
I would think that's youraverage consumer and for
absolutely.
Fox DVO, rock Shocks, not yourtop podium racers, are not the
people that's making youmillions of dollars and making
Fox Fox.
It's your consumers.

Dane (32:38):
Yeah, I would really argue that 99.9% of consumers
listening to your podcast ifthey do understand about 0.1% of
what you just said.

That's very, very true.
I need to be told what's bestfor me, right?
So if I walk into a shop andthey're like, hey, what kind of
writing do you like, what do youlike to do, how do you your?
Your, your fork is shot.

Dane (32:59):
So, like you said, I brought it in for servicing.

Yep, yeah I.
What should I buy?
Because fox is awesome, fox isis the top notch yeah what else
do I have?
What do you recommend?

Dane (33:16):
so.
So with with people that comein the shop, if the fork is just
getting service, you're talkingfor us it's, it's 120, 150
bucks service.
So it's not worth getting ridof a eleven hundred dollar,
twelve hundred dollar fork,right, so we don't jump to oh,
you need service, you should geta new fork.
That's, that's not's.
Our whole business is aroundmaking those keep going.

(33:37):
Um, the difference is when thecustomer comes in, we have to
really talk to them about whatthey need and try and figure it
out, even though they may notknow what they need.
So I would ask you questionsthat had to do with like what
trail do you ride?
How do you ride?
You know, uh, in, in, uh.
In a local area where we're inthe shop and you're coming into
the shop, I have a hugeadvantage because I can say, hey

(34:00):
, what's your favorite trail,and that will tell me a lot
about you.

Josh (34:02):
What is your favorite trail there?

My favorite shows actually in Washington.
I started writing in Washington.
Okay, that's not going to helpme at all.

Josh (34:08):
How about your favorite trail in Arizona?
My?

favorite trail in Arizona.
My favorite trail in Arizona isactually right down the road.
My favorite trail is Adobe Jack, for whatever reason, like I
love the way it whips and turns.

Josh (34:18):
Okay.

It's an easy trail.

Dane (34:20):
Yeah.

But sometimes you just want to wake up and do
something easy.
You don't get to do somethingchallenging every day.
Yep.

Dane (34:24):
Yeah, so easy stuff is fun .
I don't know, is that in Sedonahere?
Yes, three miles down the roadis that near the like the where
grand central is?
Is that near chuck wagon andstuff in that mezcal area?

I think maybe in the general area it's like,
yeah, towards the end of wheresoldiers passes, like that big
kind of conjoining area yeahkind of hard to describe unless
you've seen it.
But yeah it's very fun, veryflow, very whippy so I like all
kinds of stuff.
It's my favorite yeah.

Dane (34:52):
So like, uh, instance, if we are using a trail that's got
a lot of descending, a lot ofhard hits, a lot of drops, maybe
jumps, things like that, that'sgoing to help me kind of figure
out which fork is better.
I'm going to look at yourstature and what size you are.
I'm going to look at the bikeyou're putting on like a
switchblade.
So like, if you're putting iton a switchblade, that bike is

(35:16):
so versatile to go up to bikeparks and to be a cross-country
bike like it's.
It's super versatile, so youwant a fork that matches that.

Josh (35:22):
So I'm not going to necessarily suggest a 38 um fox
or dvo, because that may be toomuch you know, because the bike
really matters, because thekinematics of the bike really
matters, because the kinematicsof the bike he hates that word.

Dane (35:37):
Well, I don't hate it, I just have not quite figured out
what it is.

Can you define that?

Josh (35:42):
for me.
No, we got a really succinctdefinition last time.
No, we did not.
We absolutely did.
It's how two things in motioninteract with each other.

Okay, yeah, that would be you and me
nipple man, and yeah, is thatyour two nipples when you're
running down the street, soregardless every bike.

Josh (36:01):
The the actual design of the bike.
Yeah, is designed to handlesuspension its own way, and you
may recommend a differentsuspension product.
Yeah, depending on the specificbike I'll give you a great
example.

Dane (36:13):
If you come in the shop, we just sold a pivot to a
customer and the stock fork is aone 50 travel.
Every time I buy a bike becausewe have large rocks and a lot
of pedal strikes in Arizona, um,and it tends to be an A an
issue, even with pivots whichhave a high bottom bracket.
I tend to, because I likedescending and I favor

(36:34):
descending and I'm not as muchinto climbing.
I add usually 10 millimeters tomy fork, so when I bought that
same bike, I put it at 160 andyou added to my forks when you
put them on my diamond yep,exactly, and so you know, I'm
looking at the way you ride, howyou ride.
So this guy that comes in andbuys this fork has ridden with
me and we've gone to bike parkstogether and he asked me the

(36:57):
same question hey, is this thetravel you put on yours?
And I'm like no, I did 160.
And he goes.
I want to ride like you, notbecause I ride good but, he's
riding the same areas that we'reriding.
He goes can you put it to 160?
And I said, yes, so now thatsame fork on that bike cannot go
to 170.
And so had he put that, a DVOset to a guy on a bike and he's

(37:34):
like I want you to change traveland make it longer, and I have
to on the rear.
And I had to say, hey, I may ormay not be able to do that, and
we have a process to figure itout, and ultimately he was
already at the max, so wecouldn't do that.

Josh (37:48):
And you overstroked multiple of my bikes.
Yeah, honestly, yeah, multipleof my bikes.

Dane (37:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah we.
I mean, when it comes to thefront, you can get away with a
lot.
Now, if a guy comes in with aSanta Cruz blur, which is a
hundred millimeter race bike,and he goes, can you put a Fox
38, one 70 on the front?
First of all, I'm going to askhim how much money do you have?
Then I'm going to be like areyou sure I mean I can do it.

(38:15):
But you know that's that's theguy that I'm going to take a lot
of time and help him kind offigure out if that's the right
way to go.
If, ultimately, we have adiscussion and I've told him all
the drawbacks and he stillwants to do it, and I tell him
it could rip the front end ofthe bike off, he it's his money,
you know he could go online andbuy it and do it himself, you
know.
But I'm just going to make surehe understands why it may not

(38:35):
be the most appropriate fork.
And the same thing for if youcome in with a Firebird which is
, you know, 160 in the back andyou want to put a 34 on the
front at 140 because you want tobring the weight down, it's
just I'm going to show you whyit's not appropriate.
But the hardest discussion isbetween brand loyalty.
That's the hardest part.

(38:56):
I like DVO because I've learnedits character.
I like the way it rides.
It has a specific way thatrides.
It for me is just superenjoyable.
And when I'm on a brand, I justtested a bike this week that
had a Fox factory on it and Ijust got off of it going.
I don't like this fork.
It's a top of the line fork andI fiddled with it and fiddled

(39:19):
with it and tried to make it howI want it and I could not get
it to way I wanted it, got rightback on my DVO and I was like
it was.
I was at home, you know, and sothe the thing that makes me not
go tell everybody they shouldget a DVO is that I realize
there are different people thatwant different things.
I don't want them to think thatI'm only telling them what I

(39:42):
like you know and that'simportant because I build trust
with people and I don't wantthem to think that, oh, he just
is selling me what he likes youknow it's probably worth just a
little public serviceannouncement and I just looked
this up to verify.

Josh (39:54):
But like every, if you do overstroke your fork every 10
millimeters that you increasewill also will actually decrease
your head tube angle by 0.5 to0.7.
Yeah, so if you have a 65degree head tube angle and you
increase your your fork by 10millimeters, you'll now have a
64.5 head tube angle which willchange how the bike actually

(40:16):
handles.
So just recognize that.
And it would be the inverse ofthat if you shorten the fork?

Dane (40:23):
Yep, exactly.
And then that affects thebottom bracket height, which,
again in Arizona, is a big issuefor us because we have lots of
pedal strikes.
The other thing about some ofthe things that are unknown with
switching out forks and doingthings is companies will usually
recommend a travel on the bike,and sometimes they're doing it
just because they have tested itat that and that's their

(40:47):
optimum and that's what theythink you should ride, and if
you change it, you may not getthe optimum experience in their
eyes, and if you change it, youmay not get the optimum
experience in their eyes.
Other times they are literallynot approving that product
because it could break the bike.
And so, for instance, on aSlayer, on a Rocky Mountain

(41:17):
Slayer, the head tube isapproved for a triple clamp,
which is what downhill forks are, and that puts a different load
and stress on.
It's very stiff, doesn't haveas much flex, and so a lot of
that energy goes into the frameinstead of the fork, um, and so
they are approved for that.
So they actually.
They actually have a brand, aversion called the park version,
which is where they put all thedownhill stuff on their free
ride bike, and we had a teamrider who was riding a Santa

(41:37):
Cruz a nomad, if I remembercorrectly and she wanted to put
a triple clamp on the frontbecause that's what she was
racing downhill on.
Just it was her lightweightlong travel bike and she was
racing downhill and I calledSanta Cruz and they're like,
nope, not on that one.
She was racing downhill and Icalled Santa Cruz and they're
like Nope, not on that one.
And so what we were gettingfrom them is a strength and

(41:59):
safety issue, not necessarily,hey, it's not going to be like
we tested it or perfect, youknow.
So we, we as a shop, we're,we're real aware of that and we
help people through that.
So so, to answer your question,I personally I would I as soon

(42:19):
as you're done talking I, Ipersonally, I would say that the
DVO fork for me has been sosuccessful in the feedback that
we get from the people that buyit.
It is very rare that people arenot happy with it.
I know of one person and, andI'll tell you, my buddy Justin
is the second person, and heactually had a problem with his

(42:41):
fork that we had to fix.
I think I had a problem as well.
Yeah, no, cause you were ridingmy old fork.

Josh (42:46):
Yeah, I just don't think I had it set up right.

Dane (42:47):
Yeah, I think so too, cause I put that on one of my
bikes and love it and you workedfine.
I'm like this thing, I can'tget to work and and we address
that in that podcast with ronnieis one of the reasons they're
switching from the ott design,which is in your fork mic, to
the new sls is because they'vehad so much um, muddy info, uh,

(43:09):
and feedback and reviews oftheir product.

Because of setup.
Yeah, that's what I was,because I wouldn't have been
able to set that up on my own.

Dane (43:18):
It's got these cool features and that is one of the
things with, let's say, the FoxFactory, with the high-speed and
low-speed rebound, or I seethis.
We service King Creek and KingCreek makes there's a lot of
adjustments on a King Creek andsometimes customers like you
said, they just want it to worktoo many knobs.

Josh (43:37):
Yeah, and they want it to to to just answers.

Dane (43:39):
Yeah, yeah and and so like .
For instance, when Foxdeveloped CTD climb, trail
descend they were really tryingto give the the majority rider
easy way to adjust that fortheir ride style.

Josh (43:54):
Yeah, Just click.
Click it to climb trailerdescent.

Dane (43:56):
And it is crazy, because that was their motivation and it
was super successful.
Oh, by the way, like peopleknew exactly how to adjust
theirs.
Now, when I do a suspensionclinic and there's high speed
and low speed, I spend like twohours trying to explain to
people and give them examples ofwhat that does and how it's
affected, and it's verydifficult to wrap their heads

(44:18):
around unless they they reallygo to school on on this stuff.
And so I agree with youSometimes the simpler damper is
is better, the the big thingthat I'm seeing right now is the
simpler dampers tend to suck.

Like uh, yeah.

Dane (44:35):
And they.
Just how do you feel about that?
In what regard?

well, like they're not just like somebody
that's like a great, great rideror somebody that's just your
everyday riders everyday rider.

Dane (44:45):
So so instead of making it a simple like a ctd, where
you're just kind of gettingthree different positions and
then your damper functions well,especially under high loads,
they're making a cheap damper.
That is easy to understand, butit's not very well refined.
One exception to this that Ireally like and I've mentioned
this before is Fox's grip damperis one of my favorite dampers.

Josh (45:09):
That's probably what's in your rhythm, right.

Dane (45:11):
Yeah, he doesn't have a rhythm he said it over and over.

Josh (45:13):
One of his bikes't have a rhythm.
He said it overnight.

On one of his bikes.
Rhythm is in the Specializedyeah in the.

Josh (45:15):
Specialized?

Dane (45:15):
yeah, but that would be a grip damper, right that's a grip
yeah, and so the grip damperwas one of the first dampers
that Fox made.
That was called Springback IFP,which means that it has a… Look
at Derek's face right now.

Yeah, I know that's why I go to the shop.

Dane (45:32):
Yeah, yeah, that's why I go to the shop Shout out Center
Spokes.

Yeah, they're great, yeah.

Dane (45:37):
So honestly, what the grip damper does that some of the it
just tells you, at thisposition it's going to be open,
and as you move it towards theback it's going to be closed.
And if you move it somewhere inbetween, in fact on a true grip
, they'll put a little indent inthe middle so that you have
kind of an open trail and closedmode.

(46:00):
But the reason that is alow-cost damper that works
really well is the mechanicsinside, the valving inside,
still work really well at highspeeds under big loads.
Uh, I have actually taken thefit damper out of my factory 34
and put a grip into it because Iride more aggressive than the

(46:20):
fit really liked.

Josh (46:21):
I mean the fit was more for cross country.

Dane (46:23):
Yeah, and it has a smaller oil volume and if you're doing
long descents on that, it'sgoing to heat up faster.
It's not going to be asconsistent.

Josh (46:29):
What happens when, uh when , you heat up the shock or the
fork oil?

Dane (46:33):
uh, it gets thinner, and so then it moves faster, and so
it's inconsistent.

Josh (46:37):
So what does the ride feel If I don't know what the hell
you're talking about?
It gets bouncy it gets bouncy,yeah, yeah.

Dane (46:47):
And so if that damper needs service, this happens when
it needs service, but you don'tnotice it as a rider when they
need service because it's slowlybeen happening over time and so
every so you've been in everyride, you've been conditioned a
little bit more and a little bitmore and you don't really
notice.
It's the grand Canyon effect.
You know it doesn't happenquickly, so, but that's.
I get a ton of accolades fromcustomers when they get their
suspension back because they'relike oh my God, it feels so much

(47:10):
better.
You're a magician and I'm like,I changed the oil.
I like you know like.

I mean, I do more than that.
It's the opposite.
Right, you get used to abusebecause I just had my fork
serviced and before I felt likeI had it perfectly dialed, like
this thing is banging on allcylinders, and I took it in.
He's like this thing is on itslast leg and after I got it back
I was like this is terrible,just put the old stuff back in,
because I feel like I rode somuch better.

(47:36):
Obviously, it's been a fewrides, it's been a couple of
months.
I've ridden it a lot, but atfirst I just didn't know any
better.
I've been riding this bike forso long.

Dane (47:44):
Yeah, it's the new shoes versus old shoes.
You put your old shoes on, theyfit like a glove, but there's
no tread, you can't climb, youcan't run and your feet hurt at
the end of the day, but, man,they feel good going on you know
, and you don't know that you'relosing all this other stuff.
And so when your fork getsservice, when it comes back, if
it, like you know, in ourservice center we changed, did

(48:06):
you get yours done through us?

No, I got mine done through my local shops.

Dane (48:10):
Well, so as your shop, the local shops, well, so it's your
shop.
The one that you mentionedsends stuff to us sometimes
probably.

Josh (48:17):
Well, no, you'll see you'll, you'll see a sticker.

Dane (48:19):
If you did, it would say guru, on the fork when you get a
sticker yeah, but a lot oflocal shops send their stuff to
us and so, um, because thesethings get complicated and they
get hard to work on and andshops are tired of them changing
it every year and have to buyall the new tooling and stuff,
and so service centers like oursare getting popular, because we
can let your shop be the heroand get it done for you.

(48:42):
You don't have to go two placesto get your tune-up and your
suspension service.

Josh (48:46):
I might be biased, but I don't know of any other service
centers like you.

Dane (48:51):
They are there because I pay attention, because I have to
go meet with all these guys.

I don't agree with you.
They're, they're much smaller.
Yeah, yeah, didn't the lostcode just go to a straight
suspension service up inwashington?

Dane (49:01):
you know, you guys don't pay attention to washington uh,
yeah, I'm not sure, but um, I Ifeel like that's scary, you know
, so like uh doing justsuspension.

Josh (49:13):
So with us we're a suspension center and a bike
shop yeah and it's verysymbiotic and it works back to
the fact that the framekinematics really make a
difference in the suspensionthat's needed and how it needs
to perform.
If you're not staying up withwhat's going on with the frames,
yeah, how the hell, can youactually service or recommend?

Dane (49:31):
so we recently had a bike in that we service the
suspension and the customer is,um, uh, we did a bunch of work
on his bike and there is a creekthat he's convinced in the fork
, and we spent a ton of timetrying to diagnose it and it's
not in the fork.
You know, um, there's somethinggoing on in the bike, uh, but
it's so hard to diagnose becausehe's put new bearings and what

(49:53):
have you in it?
Um, and that also is somethingthat we have an advantage of
cause.
If that customer has an issue,you know they can come right
back and they can.
They can.
We're, we're not just testingthe one piece, you know we're,
we're doing the whole system,but we have a lot of people ship
into us too, and and so it's,it's tough.

(50:15):
You know, on one that we webrought on a new employee that
came from a different servicecenter and he had a lot of great
advice and one of the thingsthat he was like well, you guys
need to take more settings, youknow, and so that you can put
their settings back.
But one of the problems withthat is like what you
experienced Once that oil'schanged, changed, the suspension

(50:35):
will act differently, and soyour settings might not be the
right settings.

Josh (50:38):
They may not.
That's my experience.

Like I'd, put it because I wrote it down.
I like I don't know a piece oftape on the fork, yep, yep so
exactly what it was.
Yeah, and it took me a while todial it back.
Now it feels pretty good, butit took me a while to find what
that, what that new zero lookslike Do you remember what you
changed after it got back?
Uh, not really.
I mean I I wrote it down andput it again.
I get hit in the head a lot.
So that's why I write it downand put it on a piece of tape.

Dane (51:07):
Yeah, right, uh, so yeah, it's it.
It's tough when we're sellingsuspension.
We really need to know muchmore about the the rider.
Um, you know I keep bringingthis up, but when you get these
experiences online and you'retrying to make these decisions
without that interview, you'renot getting the same experience
and you're not getting the samehelp in kind of defining it, and
so your experience you may notget the best product, because

(51:29):
every one of these companies Iwill tell you will tell you that
their product is the best andthat why would you buy a Fox
when you could have a DVO?
And then, when I go talk to Fox, they're like are you kidding
me?
We make the best suspension.
And then the guys at RockShoxare like you guys are both on
something because our stuff isthe best, you know.

You want that right.
You don't want to walk in a DVOand they're like, yeah, fox and
shit, we're not very good, Iknow but.

If the only.

Dane (51:54):
Yeah, I get that.
But when you get advice onthese things, the manufacturer
is never going to tell you aboutthe other brands.

Josh (52:05):
So that's a biased point.
We haven't talked about thismuch, but I do got to just say
my favorite suspension productright now is the Zeb with the
3.1 damper and the buttercups.

And.

Josh (52:15):
I am now researching the commensurate different fork
sizes.
So like a pike and a lyric formy other bikes.
Yeah, and I literally so.
He said, and maybe his generalquestion, like the way that
thing feels, I've never feltanything like it.
It's fucking amazing, yep, butit's on a super ass heavy.
Is there a sticker on the back?

Dane (52:34):
of your fork probably you did it, does it say, guru?
I'm sure it does just checking.

Josh (52:39):
Yeah, no, no, no, man, I was just giving you kudos a
minute ago.
Here's what I'm saying, like ifI so.
So I got a fox performance witha grip, so it's not as good as
your factory.
It's just like the lower, lowerlevel on my crop, on my
specialized epic evo, which youoverstroked, yeah, yeah because
yours is a 34.

Dane (52:59):
34.
Is that 130?

Josh (53:00):
140.

Dane (53:01):
Yeah 140.

Josh (53:02):
And then I don't know what we did in the back.
We took it up 10 millimeters inthe back as well.
Yeah, irrespective, I'm tryingto see if I get a pike and I put
a 3.1 with buttercups on thatEpic Evo.

Dane (53:23):
Is it going to feel as awesome as that Zeb on my super
ass?
Heavy Rocky mountain on yourRocky mountain.
Yeah, oh, wait, wait.
So I'm sorry, I want to.

Josh (53:28):
I want to duplicate the suspension that I have in that
damn e-bike on every bicycle Ihave.
Yeah, and I'm, and I, I'm, I'mthinking I know that the weight
of the e-bike changes thesuspension like performance.

Dane (53:41):
It's the same me, I think, since the engineers on these
projects are really consistent.
You will find that if you stickwith a brand, you tend to learn
their personality, and thatpersonality will kind of shine
through on a lot of theirproducts, are you?

Josh (53:59):
telling me that I'm falling in love with a SRAM
product.
Oh shit, you have to give thatshirt back.

Dane (54:06):
Oh Jesus, I didn't even think about that.

Josh (54:07):
Well, shimano doesn't make suspension, so I can like
RockShox suspension and I like.

Dane (54:11):
Shimano or anything else for sure.

Josh (54:13):
Until Shimano comes out with suspension, and then I'll
probably switch.

Dane (54:15):
Well, who knows?

Josh (54:17):
Are they?
I don't know.
Are they?
Is that what they're going toshow you?
No, are they?
No?

Dane (54:20):
Okay, but um, so I would say that, uh, one of the biggest
shining.
By the way, just a side note,we had a listener contact us
about the Zeb and upgrading itand it.
It is very frustrating journeyfor me because the guy is super
awesome but getting theinformation about his fork and

(54:44):
finding what's in an OE fork wasway too hard.
Did you figure it out or no?
Yeah, I did, uh, andunfortunately he would have to
do the same journey that you didwhich was an expensive journey.

Josh (54:54):
I had to replace the air shaft and the damper and put
buttercups in yep yeah, but Iwas like I trust you dane, yeah
go do it.

Dane (55:01):
His, his fork is one level up than yours started and it
has the better damper in it, butin the oe version it does not
have the buttercups, and so hehas to still replace both, and
that was frustrating becauseit's like he's got this awesome
damper in there.
There's no reason to get rid ofthat, but in order to get the
buttercups, and I truly feellike the buttercups, so

(55:21):
interesting dude, we've drivenderrick to three beers.

Josh (55:23):
Yeah, I know sorry, man interesting he's like why did I
fucking agree to this?

Dane (55:31):
so interesting hang out.

Josh (55:33):
Derrick's got to say something he's waiting to say
something I don't know.

I was good, I'm good, I like listening, yeah,
so so on to Derek's question.

Dane (55:41):
You know, when you bring up the buttercups, one of the
things that the buttercupscreate is this small bump, yeah,
Smooth.
It feels to me the way youexplain a DVO Yep, exactly.
And so that is something that Ithink that the buttercups have
allowed RockShox to achieve thatthey really haven't achieved in
the past.
And so you know, because theseengineers are sometimes looking

(56:04):
at like cycles on a machine,they're looking at data, they're
looking at spike events, youknow, on these dampers to figure
out what they're doing.
Then they're going out andtesting them with riders and
getting feedback, and they'rerarely testing them with riders
like us.
You know, just regular guys.

Josh (56:20):
They're usually World Cup athletes that are giving them
feedback and we keep tellingthem send us your stuff, we'll
test it.
Wait, I got to be careful.
Okay, because people havestarted to do that.
Yes, but do have a question.

Dane (56:31):
Well, no, don't stop them from doing that.
Okay, keep doing it Keepsending us shit.

Josh (56:34):
That's awesome, but hang on before you go, mike.
Okay, if you send us somethingand we don't like it, we will
tell people Don't.

Dane (56:42):
I'm not saying, we will tell people.

Josh (56:44):
I won't tell anybody when we give you feedback when we
give you feedback, don't tell uswe're stupid and then fight
what we're telling you.

Dane (56:50):
Yeah.

Josh (56:51):
If you're not interested in like real, objective feedback
, don't send us your stuff.
Let's not go into specifics.

Dane (57:03):
No, we're not going to specifics, but I will tell you
that that comment from joshright now is because this has
happened and we had one instancewhen this is happening so far.
It's not ever an issue, it'snot an issue.

Josh (57:08):
But right now we're like, okay, you should fix this, this
and this.
Here's why yeah.
And then you want to try toconvince us that we're wrong,
like, okay, yeah, we just wantopinion.
But, like you know, take it forwhat it's worth.

Dane (57:20):
But the value of the average rider is very high when
you're developing a product.

Josh (57:24):
So why don't they test more with average riders?
That was my question.
I'm sorry I stole your question, mike.
That was my question, why?

don't they do that I mean it would
make sense, because that's mostriders.

Dane (57:33):
When I've talked to Ronnie and other people that have to
do this stuff.
So so ronnie at dvo is the guyin the trailer who's trying to
change the inside of the forkevery run for that rider to to
get it to feel how the riderwants the.
When I opened guru, one of thethe most common comments from
other tuners or suspension guyswas to not tune, and the reason

(57:57):
that they get frustrated with itis because people don't always
know either how to say what theywant or they don't know what
they want, and so getting thatfeedback is very difficult.
Now I've dealt with a couplepro riders who can actually
identify things that they needand can give you feedback.

(58:17):
That is much more valuable andwe talked about that with
faction and getting that is muchmore valuable.
And we talked about that withfaction, you know, and getting
that feedback is super valuable.
The downside to that is you'regetting the feedback from
somebody going twice to threetimes the speed of an average
rider, and so then you know Iwould say that those engineers
honestly, can just throw a forkat anybody who works at their

(58:39):
engineering firm, they can goride it and they can get that
feedback.
So they probably get thatfeedback from themselves.

Josh (58:44):
I think that is a more abundant feedback right, because
any one of those guys can belike yeah, I don't like this.

Dane (58:49):
Yeah, but uh, genuinely, when I'm dealing with people
with suspension, it's verydifficult for them to articulate
what they want to to, to tellme what they want or to tell it
to me in a way that I canphysically make it manifest.

Josh (59:01):
I'm going to totally change the subject.
Mike, if I remember correctly,you run some really weird not
weird, but unique pedals.
Oh, yes.
Yes, tell us about your pedalsman.

They're a by peddling innovations are
called the catalyst and they'rejust really really long.
Like how long Uh?

Josh (59:19):
they span from the ball of my foot all the way to the heel
damn wow, from the ball of yourfoot all the way to the heel,
that's like they recommend?

they recommend that you line the axle
up with the arch of your footinstead of having to.
That's all I read.

I get told all the time that that is wrong, but
I've I've been riding motocrosssince I was a kid.
Yeah, dirt bikes all the waythrough.
That's how I was taught right,so you can shift and move Every
person that sees me ride amountain bike.
They may comment on the waythat I put my foot on the pedal.

Dane (59:49):
Do you do arch over the?

spindle.

Dane (59:52):
Excuse me.

I put it essentially yeah, yeah.
The axle of the pedal rightthere, almost in the arch of my
foot, that's where mine is.
I get comments constantly aboutlike, oh, you're not getting
proper traction, you're notgetting this wire can ride fast
and you're slow, so so what doesit really?

Mike "Babyfoot" Jones (01:00:10):
matter for this uh, yeah, so the guy
who designed these pedals hehe's a mountain bike coach in
boulder, I believe, and hedesigned them for standing
pedaling.

Dane (01:00:18):
Yeah.

He, he preaches standing most of the
time.
Okay, I, when you're under what?

Derrick Kampfer (01:00:25):
is this.

I think he says high stress actions on
the bikes.

Josh (01:00:30):
Yeah, what's the name of the company?

again, pedal innovation pedaling
innovations.

Dane (01:00:33):
So so I there's a couple of things that kind of oppose
each other, and sometimes thatis so like there's some data
coming out where moving yourfoot forward and getting closer
to that arch is actuallybecoming more and more popular
from the fit standpoint andpower delivery.
I think that's where the ballof the foot over the spindle

(01:00:55):
comes from, and so a lot of thathas to do with a system where
you're clipped in and they'retrying to create the most power,
so you're using your calf andyour quads, and so I think
there's a like, a, even, youknow, a kind of a not a happy
medium, but I think you can getaway with both types of stance.
The big thing is to make surethat you're not doing any damage

(01:01:17):
to your legs, you know.
So like it's funny because youcould sit, you could decide that
you just want to pedal withyour heel over the axle, and if
you ride the bike and then youend up being faster than your
buddy, you could tell everybodyit's faster.
But it's not really that that'smaking you faster.
It could be the fact that youknow how to ride, or have bigger
muscles or more endurance, oryou know you have a taller gear

(01:01:38):
on your bike, you know, um.
So these things, thesedifferent types of ways.
So a new trend that's comingout is con.
Yes, is that right?
Convex?
Am I saying that right?
So, convex, and I just wrote apair of the new um, I don't know
if I'm supposed to talk aboutthem, so I'll just say a new
brand, or a brand's new version.

Josh (01:01:58):
Let's explain the difference between concave and
convex.

Dane (01:02:00):
Okay, yeah, help me, cause I don't know so cave is the
curve goes down.
Yeah, okay, convex curve isokay, so it's concave, so
basically so, so these pedalsare designed to where the ball
of your foot or the center ofthe axle sinks into the pedal.

Josh (01:02:15):
It's low.

Dane (01:02:21):
Convex of the pedal.
It's low, convex would be theopposite.
Yeah, yeah, so concave, so soyour foot fits in almost a
cradle and they're really kindof.
I think the goal is for them tobe a little bit more
cross-country.
So, like, for instance, on mycross-country bike, I ride flats
because I have knee issues andI can't ride clip in.

Are they?
Are they flats, the concaveones?
Yeah, yeah that's interesting,because mountain bike shoes are
flat.
Yes, yeah.

Dane (01:02:40):
Well, they're flat for because, yeah, I haven't you.
Mainly because they, yeah, Idon't know.
So I can't make them an arch,because everybody's arches are
different place, so like so soon these.

Josh (01:02:52):
I just want to get back to these pedaling, pedaling
innovations.
I don't want to lose this.
Maybe, since you guys are bothsitting in the same house, you
could try out your bike andpedal around and see if that's
something you like.
It looks like you are paying apenalty, a weight penalty of
about a hundred grams, that'snot a big deal.

Dane (01:03:08):
So that's a quarter pound.
I wonder, if there's a, I canlose a quarter pound.

I wonder did you read?

Josh (01:03:12):
it A quarter pounder.

Dane (01:03:23):
Is there any power or watts difference?
Because that's where themovement of the foot forward and
back can affect your power,because as you move closer to
away from the ball of your footand towards your arch, you can't
use your calves as much.

Yeah, I wouldn't know, because it's what
I've been writing.
I mean, I started on clipless.

Josh (01:03:35):
Yeah.

Which is a whole other conversation.
But I was the king of slowspeed crashes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah Because, plusyeah, which is a whole other
conversation but I was the kingof slow speed crashes.

Dane (01:03:40):
Yeah, yeah because we'd stop and I would just fall over
yep yeah so I switched yeah andI don't remember how I ended up
with these, but I love them soone one thing that I've heard
from other customers that havethem is there's a lot more pins
and a lot more contact a lot ofpins so you stay contacted to
them more and it gives me moreleeway to not be as precise with
my feet.

Yep.

Dane (01:03:59):
Yeah, if I plus you're something.
What size shoes do you wear?

I had small feet, 10 and a half.

Dane (01:04:04):
Okay, yeah, all right.
Yeah, you have tiny little babyfeet.

And so yeah, so if I hit a rock or
something, my foot tiny littlebaby feet.

Little baby cute.

They're so cute, baby foot.
Can we go back to the moment?
Baby foot Mike.

You guys are going to edit this out, right?

Josh (01:04:28):
Everything's getting edited out.
Mike just got a new nickname.

Dane (01:04:32):
Oh no.

Josh (01:04:33):
He's going to be baby foot Mike from now on he's going to
be.

Six inches.
I know some.

Josh (01:04:39):
Six inches.

Dane (01:04:40):
This is six inches, six inches this is six inches, so we
were talking about the concavepedals, right yeah, sorry I cut
you off it's okay.
One of the things that they'reexperimenting with is more
people riding flats in crosscountry because, uh, not wanting
to be clipped in being able toput their foot down.
There's a lot of advantages toto being flat, and I think this
guy actually um pedal pedalinginnovation I think, he preaches

(01:05:04):
flat pedals over clipless and um, and so he's trying to create a
, a scenario where people feelmore comfortable on the bike.
And I'm for that, because Ihave a limitation that makes me
ride flats, so I can't pick myfoot up, I can't use that second
set of muscles that you getwith the clip-ups.

There's not a lot of advantage to doing
that anyway.
There's been studies that showthat there's some power
advantage, but not a lot.

Dane (01:05:27):
Yeah, it depends on what your discipline is.
So when I was training fordownhill and I was doing a lot
of road, I was clipped in allthe time.
I definitely could switchmuscle groups, so, uh, to get to
give one a break.
And so that happens.
And you can also use the fullpedal stroke, which can give you
an advantage for powersprinting, um, but uh, I, when I

(01:05:50):
stopped competing at least, uh,anything like that required a
lot of pedaling.

Josh (01:05:56):
You guys, I'm going to throw some facts at you right
now.
Okay of pedaling, you guys, I'mabout to throw some facts at
you right now.

Dane (01:06:04):
Okay, hold on, you guys go .
What the hell?
I'm just talking, I'm just.
I just.
He just said there was noadvantage and I'm gonna tell you
what the actual advantage.
Um so, anyway, um so anyway.
Uh, dan hates it when Iinterrupt him when the big thing
for me is, I reached a pointwhere being clipped in caused
more disadvantages with my kneesand then literally, like you,
falling over.
If I was in a technical climband trying to, like you know,
pogo up a section of rocks, Iwould be locked in and then I

(01:06:26):
would get, I would fall over andnot be able to get out.
Uh, and that fear caused me tostop doing that, which limited
how much I would ride.
And so when I went back toflats, I had this huge
confidence because I could stepoff the bike super easy, I could
put my foot down in a corner ifI lost traction and because I
race downhill bikes, that's mynatural ride anyway, so it fit

(01:06:48):
me.
I have other people that arelike, how do you ride your bike
without clips?
Because they've used the clipsto be connected to the bike and
actually pick the bike up whenthey jump or through a garden,
or to actually leap the bike upa section to get up a step or
something.
So it really depends on theperson and his I, his concept is
hey, can we make these betterfor people that don't want

(01:07:11):
clipless pedal innovations?
Yeah, and then, uh, these con aconcave pedals thank you, um
are because they're kind ofcurving around your foot more
are supposed to be moreorientated towards cross country
.
They'll give you a morecomfortable feel and they'll let
you scoop the pedals a littlebit more to use a little bit

(01:07:31):
more muscle groups.

Josh (01:07:32):
Yeah, so the power advantage of clipless pedals
compared to flat pedals onmountain bike typically range
between 5% and 15% in moststudies, Though the exact
benefit varies based on severalfactors.
Power advantage is mostnoticeable in specific
situations extended climbs,technical climbs, sprint
scenarios where maximum power isneeded in high cadence pedaling

(01:07:53):
.
Five to 15%.

Dane (01:07:55):
Yeah, and then you add any drawback to either side and
it'll weight that one way or theother.

Josh (01:08:00):
Yeah, because the advantage comes with trade-offs
Less freedom, potential forslower, more complicated
dismounts, learning curve fornew users, and you need to have
specific shoes.
By the way, anytime I'm statingthis stuff, it's coming from
Claude AI, which is a tooldeveloped by Anthropic in San
Francisco.

Yes, we should try that other
interesting AI, no Rock, no inSan Francisco.

Dane (01:08:20):
We should try that other interesting AI.

Josh (01:08:22):
Rock, no.
So what do you think, man,these pedal innovations?
Is that interesting to you?

Yeah, I've been looking at them for a while.
I'm really good on color.
If I look at it and it's like alame color.
I'm good, I'll wait.
Mine are pretty, they're blue.
That's how I recognize you.
I was like, oh, I know thatbike.

Josh (01:08:46):
And blue.
Yeah, that's how I recognizeyou.
So I was like I know that bikeand then I looked everybody
recognizes my bike, baby foot,baby foot mike is more
recognizable.

Dane (01:08:50):
Hey, so, for all the the this, for the 60 countries that
we talked to 66, 66 what?
What is sharon's instagramhandle?

uh, sharon the mountain bike, sharon
t-h-e-m-t-.
Uh, sharon the mountain bike.
Sharon T H E M T B.
Okay At Sharon the mountainbike.

Dane (01:09:03):
Nice.
So every time we talk about,yeah, Mike's bike, and and how
it's very recognizable, you'llimmediately can't say Mike's
bike, we have to say baby footMike's baby foot Mike you don't
really have to do that, it'sdone.

Mike, it's done .
Call me E-Mike instead.
Wasn't I watching a dirt shed?
Let's go back to the cool thingwhen I was awesome, right you?

Dane (01:09:21):
still are awesome.
So Sharon was on Dirt Shed,wasn't she?

Yeah, I sent in her picture that one
time.
Yeah, they didn't quite knowwhat to make of her.

Dane (01:09:28):
Yeah, they, because they're British and you know,
and she got the lowest, I willRight not a super nice, just a
nice.
Just a nice and so.

Josh (01:09:40):
Is that user voted?
No, it's just them.
Oh, the host, it's just them.
Who cares I?

Dane (01:09:44):
just want to say that Mike called me that day in tears and
I had to talk him off a ledge.

Josh (01:09:48):
Was he really?
It was a bad day.

Dane (01:09:50):
Yeah.

Josh (01:09:52):
What is the?
You've got an interesting.
So Dane recently got me aswitchblade frame which I'm
going to, which I still haven'tpaid you for any.
I haven't given it to you?

Dane (01:10:01):
Yeah, yeah, give it to me and I'll pay for it.

Josh (01:10:03):
Uh, and it's the same bike that my, by the way.
Like I'm a shitty mountainbiker and I'm married to a woman
who's an amazing mountain biker, she rides a switchblade.

She's really good she getting the same exact
color.

Josh (01:10:22):
Yeah, and I'm like I do not want to have the same exact
color.
Is it the hot pink one thatjust came out?
No, that would have beenawesome.

Dane (01:10:24):
Are you a size medium, because I got one at the shop.

I'm a large, I'm like a nice in-betweener
size I like to ride mediumsevery now and then because
they're fast and twitchy.

Dane (01:10:32):
Yep, yep the talon right large, just kind of that was
that called the town.
We got one at the shop with allthe little characters on it and
stuff like that, that hot.
That is such a beautiful bike.
I think ours is one 98 out of300.
So yeah, that's awesome.

Josh (01:10:45):
Anyways, it's blue.
I do not want the same color asmy.
I don't have the same bike thatlooks the same.
My wife, that's not how we roll, but you have an interesting
like and I do too on my.
But you have an interestinglike sticker, some kind of like.
How did you?
Frame protection so what wasthe brand that you use?

It's ground keep, grounds keeper,
ground keeper, customs, Okay.

Dane (01:11:05):
Yeah.

They have all kinds of different designs.

Dane (01:11:07):
You can.
You can go pick the colorsright, you can go.
I think they have this customone.
I've been on the website.

It's fun were the same as my frame.
Okay, and it looks like paintuntil you get close yeah, I
didn't.

Josh (01:11:19):
I mean, I thought honestly , when I first saw it I thought
that bike had been custompainted.

Yeah, yeah well, he sometimes I don't
tell people they're like nicepaint.

Dane (01:11:26):
I was like thanks, yeah, that's because you're going by
so many hours so, yeah, what'scrazy is, every once in a while
he'll be in the shop with sharonand somebody else will come
with the same kit on their bikeand oh, seriously, yeah, and
then we take pictures of it.

It's like Sharon has a twin somewhere.
Yeah, yeah.

Dane (01:11:43):
And what's scary is there's more than one that have
happened in just our shop, soimagine all over the world.

Josh (01:11:50):
I think maybe I'll just have it painted.
I got a guy Typically is uniqueIn town really.

Dane (01:11:56):
Not in town, but he's the guy that does the custom pivots.

Josh (01:11:59):
I almost want to just go to an artist.
I want Jilly to do mine Like astreet, or even have Jilly do it
, or a street artist orsomething, just so that it's
completely rando.

Dane (01:12:11):
Yeah, it's kind of trendy to do that right now, oh shit.

Josh (01:12:14):
Now you're making me not want to do it.
I'm not punk rock anymore.

Dane (01:12:16):
It's true, she's, ever she's.
She sold a painting.
Did she really yeah, she sold it, she did an art project at
school and then they display itat school.
I gave her crap.
She's she doesn't listen tothis because we cuss.
But uh, cause you won't let her.
No, I won't let her.
Um, she's 13, but I got to tellthis story because it's one.

(01:12:39):
I was a shitty dad when I didthis.
I didn't mean to do it this way, but she's telling me.
She's like yeah, I sold it.
And I'm like no way you sold it.
And she's like yeah, and I'mlike who'd you sell it to?
And she's like this guy namedDarren, or whatever his name is
in my class and I'm like oh, oh,he's got a crush on you.
And she's like what?

Josh (01:13:01):
It's not your art, he's interested.

And Aaron sounds like a solid dude.

Dane (01:13:07):
Yeah, and I was like.
I was like I didn't mean to saythat her art wasn't worth it,
because it is Her art's good,she's really good.
But when I heard it was someboy in her class that wants to
buy it, I was like, oh yeah,this is a player.
Jilly's is a is a attractiveyoung lady.
She's going to grow up to be avery attractive woman.

(01:13:28):
Yes, yeah so.
But it wasn't like herteacher's husband wanted it or
her um teacher's best friend, oryou know.
It wasn't somebody, you know,it was like some kid in her
class.
I'm like, oh yeah, he's got acrush.

As a kid that was a loser in high school.
I'm just saying, who would yourather want interested in your
daughter?
The jock that thinks he's theshit and is going to treat her
like crap?
Hell no.
Or the kid that doesn't?

Josh (01:13:49):
He's showing interest in what she's interested in.
He wants to buy her painting tomake her.
He just fucking likes thepainting.

It's possible.
Yeah, we're just a big paintingguy.
Yeah, he's like that's badass.

Josh (01:14:01):
I want to get the one of the original jillies right from
the beginning.
Right, this will be.

Dane (01:14:06):
he knows this will actually be the second drawing
that she sold, because sheactually we were at a dinner
party hanging out at a friend'shouse because she was bored,
cause it's adult talk, and oneof the other people that were
there our friend's friend thatwas was at this dinner party saw
it and she's like that isamazing and she gave her 20

(01:14:28):
bucks on the spot for it.

Josh (01:14:29):
And this is awesome.
Yeah, that's inspiring.
Yeah, so if I just give her acouple words as like motivation
or like inspiration, could shelike if I went to her and said
fishnet armor as like motivationor like inspiration?
Could she like if I went to herand said fishnet armor, could
she?

Dane (01:14:42):
actually we looked up a technique for that, for a
fishnet armor.
Yeah, yeah, there's a techniqueto give, to give your um, to
give your frame a fishnet carbonlook.
Yeah, you use like a fishnetcross hatching, yeah, to do the
painting cross hatching.
That's what it's called crosshatching yeah, to do the
painting, cross hatching, that'swhat it's called.
Yeah, yeah, and it gives it acarbon fiber look.

(01:15:03):
And then so you do it, I thinkyou do it and you shift it one
one over, and then you do itagain and it gives it a carbon
look, and then you clear coat itlooks like you have carbon so
we were actually researchingpaint techniques and that was
one of them.

Josh (01:15:14):
It blew up in your face, yeah yeah, I want to know how
you knew what crosshatching was.

Maybe he's painting.
I was a loser in high school.
I spent a lot of time with art.

Yeah, it was a vibe.

But at the same time, when you look back at
that, who's more fulfilled,right?
If you could give 15-year-oldyourself advice, what would you
say?
Would you say to your girls?
Or look for fulfillment.

Dane (01:15:38):
Do your fucking homework, dude.
I wish I would have done myhomework.

Josh (01:15:41):
I would say change your diet.

Hey, I'm a deep guy.

Dane (01:15:46):
It is what it is.
That's a good question, Mike.
What would you do?

If I could talk to 15 year old me
first, of all I'd have to gethim to be able to talk to me
because I was terribly shy.

Josh (01:15:55):
Okay, all right okay, all right, and look at you now
you're on the podcast.
Yeah, you might talk to peoplefor a living.

Dane (01:16:04):
You do up and for you're like doing public speaking every
day.
Yeah, yeah.
So what would you do?
Just talk to people, or I wouldtell him to believe in yourself
more yeah, yeah he didn'tthat's super deep and I feel
like not specific and hewouldn't know what to do with
that.

No, I don't think he would.

Josh (01:16:24):
He's like opening up, and you're like, yeah, your answer
sucks.
What are you going to?

Dane (01:16:28):
do You're going to be like ?

hey, young Mike you just need to be
better and then walk away.
That's not going to be helpful.
Don't be a chicken shit and askher out.

Dane (01:16:37):
I would have told my 15-year-old, that is really
great advice I would have toldmy 15 year old invest in
Microsoft or Apple.
Exactly.

Yeah, and that actually happened.
I was working up to ask her togo to the prom and I gave her to
ride to school every day.
She told me one day of the dayI was going to ask her to go to
prom that she had a date.

Josh (01:16:58):
Oh yeah, Because it took me so long to work up to it.
I would have told myself tobelieve in myself less.

That's actually really good advice too.

Josh (01:17:09):
Check your ego, motherfucker, You're not as good
as you think you are.
I feel like I tell Turner thatall the time.

Dane (01:17:15):
Cocky little bastard.

Josh (01:17:17):
He's got a lot of confidence, man, he does he
cocky little bastard.

Dane (01:17:19):
He's got a lot of confidence.
Man he does, he is.
He's basically got the entirefamily's confidence bottled up
fake it until you make it, man.

Josh (01:17:25):
Yeah, yeah, he'll be successful.

He'll be successful just because of that
he's gonna be a corporate raideryeah, he's gonna have more
money than all of us, kind ofwhat I do just start calling him
gordon gecko, it's true, it'strue, he's gonna have like
swimming pools and helicoptersand and we're going to be like,
hey, can you help us with ourmortgage.

He's like your little bike shop is cute
Dad, and he's going to be likeyou remember when you made me
wash the dishes?

Josh (01:17:48):
No, this has been a great conversation.
We set out to talk about theSedona Mountain Bike Festival,
of which we have said fuck allNothing about it, nothing about
it.

It's awesome, except Nothing about it.

Nothing about it.
It's awesome, except that it'ssnowing.
It's snowing, all right.

Josh (01:18:00):
We promise we'll bring you more episodes that talk more
about the Mountain Bike Festival, which appears to be really
awesome.

We're stoked.

Josh (01:18:07):
We're going to talk to a lot of people, get some riding
in.
But I think we've come to anatural conclusion here and I'd
like to ask our friends Mike andDerek if they have any last
words for our listeners.
Start with you, Mike.
You got any last words?

Do they have to be profound?

Dane (01:18:21):
Yes, why don't you just tell them to believe in
themselves.

Okay, and don't listen to Dane when he's
being sarcastic.
Anything I do not.
I've had a great time.
This has been fun.

Josh (01:18:36):
Are you going to be okay with the baby foot?

I'm a lot of good yeah, I believe in
myself enough now that it won'tbother me hey, if it fires me up
you know what would

Dane (01:18:44):
be great is if everybody went to sharon's instagram and
just wrote baby feet, baby foot,yeah, baby foot, yeah.
Let's see if that works, see ifanyone doesn't write it on hers
.

They need to write it on e-mics no, no on
hers.

Dane (01:18:57):
I think that's better Well she'll get pissed.

Why?
Because she's got an attitude.

Dane (01:19:01):
Yeah, that's true If you read what Sharon writes in her
posts.

Josh (01:19:06):
Yeah, it's coming from Grok on.

Unhinged Mode.
We should do that, we shouldtotally do that.

Josh (01:19:12):
You should make every one of her comments come right from
Grok I don't know what this is,but I don't like it.
All right, I don't know whatthis is, but I don't like.
It All right, how about you,Derek, anything profound to
share with our listeners?

Not necessarily profound, but I was just having
this conversation today.
It's kind of counter-thought.
However you want to say, it isthat mountain biking seems like
it would be a very snobbycommunity because it's a big
buy-in right.
It's a lot of.
For example, my Switchblade, Igotblade I gotta use, but I paid
five grand for that.

Dane (01:19:39):
Yeah, I work for the government.

I'm, I'm you know I'm in the military and
five grand was a lot, you know,and by the way, thank you for
your service, buddy.

Josh (01:19:46):
Yeah, well, thank you for yours as well.

Appreciate that , man for sure and there is a
big buy-in.
But this is such I was gonnafreeze my my butt off in a field
, in a tent and my dude overhere, jason edmunds, shout out
who's a great guy, yeah shoutout jason.

Josh (01:20:02):
We tried to get jason to come out, but he was too shy he
needs to believe in himself forsure, believe in yourself jason
and just the open community.

that's why I love I last year was my first
time at the mountain bikefestival is it's.
It's an awesome community and,to the reverse of that, a
community that you think wouldbe really open.
Like the hunting, I'm a bigbill hunter.
I love bow hunting and shootingarchery and it's my, my, I
guess my alternate hobby issuper snobby Like, if you're
really, I wouldn't have knownthat if you're not wearing sick

(01:20:31):
and like, just it's, it's.
It's a very snobby community,but like where you you mossy oak
or?
I'm a kill, a deer, whateveryou run run what's?

my grandpa killed 100 years in a
red flannel shirt.
You're sick.
It don't mean anything.
Question for you after.

Okay, for sure I I will nerd out just as hard
on archery, but I think that alot of people are intimidated by
mountain biking because of theconversation that you're having.
It is intimidating, but at thesame time you have to have a
level of trust.
I don't know, you know.
So you know what, dude, youjust tell me what I need, right,
because there might come a timewhen my fork blows out and it

(01:21:12):
is an additional buy-in.
That's $1,000 for a solid fork,let's say $500 to $1,000.
But I love the mountain bikecommunity, this conversation.
The last thing I expected on aFriday night at 921 was to be in
my very first podcast ever witha couple of chill dudes.

Josh (01:21:30):
And baby foot Mike.

I want to close out with this One more thing
how old are you?

I'm 58.

This dude will smoke every single person in
this house.
I would say he would smoke 90%of people at this mountain.

He's a good rider.
I appreciate it.

He went on the ride in 50 a year and you're
like, oh, keep up with me,you'll be able to.
He was gone.

I think, oh, that was rocket ship On
rocket ship.

That shit did not go as fast as your rocket
ship, but yeah, I would say I Iappreciate you guys having me on
.
It was really cool, it's agreat experience.
And open up to regular writersyou're right, regular writers
are everything.
So if I come into your shop andI don't know what I want, give
me three categories to thinkabout.
Okay, instead of telling mewhat I want.
This is what you should have,this is what you should know.
Like maybe leave, think aboutthese things, about how you ride

(01:22:24):
, write some things down andthen come, because it's a huge
investment, to talk aboutsuspension yeah, that is.

Dane (01:22:30):
It's a lot of money.
Yeah, I'd rather give you toomuch info than not not enough
but everything in three men.

Josh (01:22:36):
The human mind can handle threes.
I love, love that, yeah, forsure.

I mean the three categories of nipple
management.

Josh (01:22:42):
When you came up with that , I was like you should.
Oh, this is a man after my ownheart right now, you should
adapt those to suspension.

Dane (01:22:48):
See if you can come up with that.
Three categories of nipplemanagement.

Josh (01:22:54):
Here's the three key questions I have for you.

If you're in here talking about spending
$1,500 to $2,000, I want you toleave for us for a week and
think about these three thingson your next ride Considering
your bike is not a dangerousmess.
Go for a few rides with thesethree things in mind and come
back and let's have aconversation about DVO, rock
shocks, fox whatever Right.

Dane (01:23:16):
Yeah.

But yeah, I appreciate you guys.
I mean, I was super cool.

Dane (01:23:19):
Thanks man.

Josh (01:23:20):
I do want to say that Mike rode with me at at a angel fire
and I'm not fast and he stayedwith me, helped me, coach me.
It was awesome.
So he can haul ass, but hestayed in and made me feel
comfortable.
I never felt uncomfortable.

It was great and I became a little bit better
rider after that weekend ridingwith Mike and Jason over there.
So appreciate you guys.
Which goes to the community isman.

Josh (01:23:44):
It's a great community.
Yeah, all right guys.
Thanks a lot, cheers.

All Episodes

097 - Bike Shop Confessions: How MTB Suspension Experts Really Choose Components

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

The Breakfast Club

The Joe Rogan Experience

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}097 - Bike Shop Confessions: How MTB Suspension Experts Really Choose Components