106 - Bike Shop Secrets: Can I ride it? Chain Stretch. Cassette Wear. Quick Links. Dropped Helmet, and Carbon Frame & Component Damage. - Mountain Cog

Episode Transcript
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Dane "The Suspension Guru" (00:20):
it's too long.
Wait, wait, yeah, baby.

Josh "Magellan" Anderso (00:29):
Perfect .
How are you doing today, buddyGood?

I'm good.

Josh "Magellan" Anderson (00:32):
We had an interesting weekend I don't
even remember it.
Well, we had Just a Maker andthe Cali Rado Kid out here in
Tucson.
That was fun.

You know as cool as they are.
Yes, and hopefully we can maybetalk them into coming on the
podcast.

We've already agreed to it, so they
better hold us up on that.

Yeah , and as awesome as they are and
I don't want to discount thatthey're cool and they brought a
ton of people out to the SDMBworkday, yep.
So if for people who are,listening that don't live in
Tucson these two YouTubecelebrities.
You know cycling celebrities,instagram influencers, whatever
you want to call came to Tucsonand then we kind of put it out

(01:09):
there that they're coming and wegot a ton of volunteers showing
up at a trail day because ofthem, I think.

Yeah, they came out to a trail day and
they shot some content and thatwas super cool.
We had lunch with them.
That was super cool.
But you know what?

Dane "The Suspension Guru" Hi (01:21):
I got from that.
I still just really enjoy goingand looking at that trail and
thinking I helped that trail.

Right, I was telling that to people
Like there were some folks outthere it was their first dig day
or their first trail work day,and I was like every time you
ride this trail, you're going tolook at that section and be
like I did that.

Dane "The Suspension Gur (01:37):
You're going to be like I trimmed that
bush.
I did that.

Or that cactus out of the way, or I
had cholla in me at this spot.
I was like, so focused ongetting stumps out because I
keep hitting stumps on my bike.
That my hands.
It's what it's a tuesday.
We did that saturday.
My hands are still sore, ohreally.
Oh man, I'm swinging the mcleodand the pick and all that stuff
.

Yeah , it was fun.
There was another guy wade Imet, uh, so he's just moved to
tucson and he's stoked and sohopefully we're going to go ride
and show him some tucson trails.
So and it was fun, it was wesaw what's wade's last name
holland and he is also aninfluencer.
Yes, yeah, I've been watchingsome of his videos.
I gotta say I haven't.
I didn't know much about him,but his videos are hilarious

(02:15):
super cool.

Yeah, he's like like the king of stoke
or something I can't rememberwhat his.

His outfits crack me up and he
showed up just on brand.
Like he was totally wearinglike yeah he fluorescent colors.
Oh yeah, he had the party shirton, so yeah, but yeah,
hopefully, hopefully he'll comehang out and we'll go riding or
something and then, yeah, thenwe went to lunch and then Sunday
I had my daughter's team partyfor her Nika team.
That was really fun and then wegot to go ride that was cool.

Got to see Regan and.
I see my wife offered to giveJilly some coaching if she's
interested in it, so that'll becool if she takes her up on that
.

A good weekend, that's for sure.
There was a lot of volleyballand other kid family stuff going
on this weekend too.
That's why I couldn't rememberwhen you brought it up.
I genuinely can't remember.

And then you had the bike swaps, oh
yeah, and then the bike swap too, yeah, so for people that don't
live, and Cyclovia.

Yeah , oh and Cyclovia.

Yeah, jesus.

Yeah , that was a packed weekend, so
I hope your town had as manybike things going on as ours,
because it was pretty amazingand the weather was amazing.

I spent a lot of time editing that
Norco podcast.

Yes , yeah, I just listened to that
today and I was pretty, Iactually I really enjoyed it,
you know.
So, yeah, I, I, I, I can't waitto hear people tell us how they
like the technology stuff, allthe technical stuff.

I don't feel like it was too over
anyone's head.

Dane "The Suspension Guru" H (03:37):
No , I don't know, it was a little
over my head.
Yeah, I, you know, I I like ittoo, because we did get into
having them kind of explain someof these terms that I think are
out there, and I think a lot ofpeople hear these terms and
they kind of just don't reallydigest them and they just need a
little bit more info.

And should I test you?
Do you remember?
Yeah, what's the anti-squat?

Dane "The Suspension (03:52):
Anti-squat is, uh, in the drive train
sense.
So it keeps it from the pedalBob, pedal Bob and the bike from
basically when you pedal itdoesn't yank the drivetrain
forward.

So anti-squats pedal bob.
What's anti-rise?

that's your braking brake jack.
Yeah, brake jack, so you don'tuh, when you put the brakes on,
it doesn't lift the back end andflip you over the bars and we
were talking in that video aboutfloating disc brakes yes,
that's coming, and nico malalijust put our video out last
night, yeah so I've seen, uh,sham has a patent that they are
putting out there.
I don't know if I got a, soyou're going to start seeing

(04:29):
those.
In fact, when those guys said Ithink you're going to start
seeing, I'm like, yeah, Ialready saw the patents, it's
already going to start coming.
It's um, they're really workinglately, from what I Faction is
also Faction.
Yeah.
So Faction did that floatingdisc brake for Nico Yep, and I

(04:55):
think you're going to startseeing that a lot to kind of
allow for some of these morefluid suspension designs that
have big drawbacks, you know,like, for instance, they don't
have a good anti-squat.
I'm still wrapping my headaround.
Anti-rise.
Anti-rise.

Josh "Magellan" Ande (05:04):
Anti-squat would be pedal bob.

No .
So what I was getting to isthat there's some suspension
designs that kind of move therear axle away.
Yep, they cause a lot ofanti-squat issues because as you
pedal it kind of breaks itforward.
So then you're seeing theidlers come out and fix that the
high pivot idlers and thenyou're also having these smooth
suspension designs that aren'tallowing for the brake to be
isolated, and so they, if theyput a floating disc brake on

(05:27):
there, it gets rid of that andso it takes the brake away.
The other interesting thingthat I found out this weekend I
was looking into basically I waslistening to a podcast about
chain feedback.
So like a big thing on theworld cup is these O chains.

That's funny.
I went down the O chain rabbithole this morning, yeah.

And so there's a couple of
companies.
There's one that's coming outwith mass dampers uh like a
tuned mass dampers for bikes,and that's a what's a mass
damper?
So it's basically God man.
This is going to be way over myhead as far as technical, but
it's a movable weight.
It kind of like a weight kindof suspended so that it can help
resonate at the same frequencythat the suspension is and it

(06:09):
helps control the feedback yeah.
And it's really crazy, butthey've been using it on the
World Cup scene for a while nowand now they're starting to get
to where they're putting it inthe front, in the middle, in the
back of the bike.
A lot of the World Cup bikesare putting added weight.

So they're actually building in
designs where you can addweights to the bike at certain
places.

Yeah , it's hilarious.
Were you going down the same?
Yeah, yeah, so maybe ourgoogles are linked or something
that's okay um, but uh, the butthe um.
The one of the guys from ah god, it's not huck norris rim rim
pact is one of the companiesthat are doing the mass dampers
and they were talking about anew type of a chain dampener.

(06:52):
Basically that's not a no chainand basically a similar to.
There's a STFU.
Have you seen that?

Shut the front door.
Yeah, yeah, exactly, shut thefront up.

So the big thing is to get rid of
that chain.
Uh, influence on the bike.

Yeah.

So you want to know something
that's crazy.
What's crazy?
Um Turner's bike?
Uh, turner's bike, he's got apivot switchblade.
Yeah, uh, of course, nine yearold.
Who's spoiled Um on his cause?
I couldn't get coils lightenough for him, I barely got
them light enough for for Jilly,so his suspension is so soft.

(07:28):
Every time I pick it up in thegarage to load the bike I can
just barely push it and itpushes down.
And something that I noticedthat I don't see being addressed
is that when I push his backend there is a noticeable
breaking force, and can youguess what it is?

The chain.

It's the chain, it's the clutch.
So as I push down on the backend and it yanks the clutch
forward, it has to break itloose.
And because his suspension isso soft, right you know for such
a light rider that, uh, younotice it, whereas on you know a
bigger bike for a 200 poundrider.
You're not going to notice itas much.
But but it was kind of crazy tome to think that nobody's kind

(08:06):
of addressed that interesting.

Yeah, I wonder.

I mean, I guess the o-chain would
probably address that as wellyeah, I guess yeah, because it
would let it tug back a littlebit.
But every time he cycles thatsuspension, that clutch is going
to get activated yeah, that'sinteresting.
And now he's got old speed, uh,old 11 speed, shimano or shram,
sorry shram.
So who knows?

yeah, that stuff's garbage.

So don't start um but uh it.
To be fair, I have no idea whatcondition this is, because
usually the kids bikes get likemy old throwaway stuff, because
they, you know, like it's a goodthing they don't listen to this
podcast, right yeah?
Oh, yeah, oh, they know, theyknow they're like this is dad's
old stuff.
But you know they've got rentalbars, you know they've got like

(08:50):
a WT.
Oh Turner's got carbon fiberrims with DT Swiss hubs.
Nice, the kid is spoiled.
Yeah totally.

You get them on like a regular
nine-year-old bike.
He's going to be like what thehell?
This thing costs less than$10,000?
.

He's stoked when he gets three
inches of air.
He does, he does it's supercool, so we were doing bike shop
stuff again, yeah.

So you guys have responded well to the
bike shop episodes the bikeshop secret episodes.
So I've got another list ofstupid questions that a home
mechanic has had, another listof, you know, stupid questions
that a home mechanic has andI've showed them to Dane briefly
, but it's mostly going to beoff the off the, off the cuff
and just see what he comes upwith Shoot from the hip, shoot
from the hips, okay, so, uh,let's see, I replaced the.

(09:37):
I checked the chain on Lacey'suh cross country bike.
Okay, it's a Scott scale, okay.

And the a Scott scale.
Okay.

And the chain was worn out Okay.
So it kind of didn't pass thetest.
So I was like, all right, I gotto replace the chain.
And I was taking a look at thecassette and it looked okay.
But I was like now I just heardyou in the back of my head Like
if you replace the chain, youshould replace the cassette.
So you in the back of my head,like if you replace the chain.

(10:09):
You should replace the cassette,so I went and bought a new
cassette okay, and a chain, andwhile I was there, I got a new
derailleur too.
Okay, what about the frontchain ring?
Front chain ring was a ovalfrom absolute black and looked
like it was in a really goodshape, okay, you couldn't even
see anywhere, anywhere on thefront is it, it's black.

I'm guessing so it is yeah, and so
you didn't see the little whiteyou know, worn off aluminum.

I didn't see anything that would
suggest, hey, I need to do this,and I kind of did like a ghetto
fit check or whatever, andeverything seemed fine.

Okay , so what's the question?

So the question is do I have to do our
listeners?
Do we have to replace thecassette when we replace the
chain.

So , man, this is different time
periods in my life.
I've had different answers.

What's your answer right now and then
what it used to be.

I'll give you all three, because
there's three different timeframes.
Okay, okay, so back in the day,like around when we had 1920.
Yeah, like back when.
Yeah, before there was light,before we had power, yeah,
before there was light, beforewe had power.
But no, campy was a drivetrain,that I mean.
Their cassettes were remarkablyexpensive compared to everybody

(11:12):
else.
Campagnola Campagnola this ison the roadside and because of
that, everybody developed kindof a habit of measuring your
chain and replacing it moreoften so that it doesn't stretch
.
So these are terms that I'mgonna have to explain.
A lot of people know these, butI'm gonna kind of explain what

(11:32):
they actually mean.
Please do not everybody doesyep, um.
So when the chain stretches, um, it's uh.
What the mechanic will tell youis all, the chain is stretched,
you need a new chain.
Well, if you put a new chain soback then the cassette was so
expensive Mechanics would tellyou to change your chain, change
your chain.
They would just push changeyour chain.

(11:53):
You need to change your chain.

All the time, even if the chain
wasn't like technically worn outJust a little bit, in fact.

We had gauges that kind of told us
a little bit versus a lotstretched.
So the idea was, if you changeyour chain more often, you will
have less stretch, and that willcause the cassette to last
longer, and so you wouldn't havethat big expense.
Okay, so then fast forward to anine speed, 10 speed, shimano

(12:19):
era, like when they justdominated.
Um, cassettes dropped down tolike 50 to 80 bucks and the
chains were like 30 bucks, andall of a sudden, changing your
chain three times to save an $80cassette was more expensive.
And so, as a racer, uh, Ideveloped an idea that just wear

(12:40):
them together, just wear theminto the ground together, you
know, and then, um, replace themboth together.
So now fast forward again tothe 2020s, you know, or 17s, or
whenever Eagle started comingout and the cassette started to
jump in price again.
And now we're back at that kindof.
You need to try and keep thatchain life, uh, and minimize how

(13:03):
much it stretches, because youdon't want to have to buy a $300
cassette on the regular.

So you're recommending today to now
.
In my particular use case or myparticular example, it was too
late.
I'd already let the chain gopast its life.

So I got questions for you.
So, um, cause I got to explainchain stretch and I got to give
you the spiel that I giveeverybody in the shop Go it,
because this is like a touchpoint or a peeve of mine, you
know um I thought it might beyeah, so um, uh, how did you
check your chain?
Like, what method did you useto check your chain?

so I have two different tools.
Okay, I have the old, and Idon't know how to explain it,
but they're both park tools.
I have the old tool.
That's little and has two kindof pokey.
Yep, that one, right there,okay.

So what is?
What is that tool?
This is a CC dash two chainchecker by park tool.

But someone told me that there that
tool I think that someone wasDane Higgins told me that that
tool was not as accurate as thebig, long one.
That's like a ruler with threethings in it.

Yeah , so I did both.

That tool said the chain was still
good.

The other one said the chain was
worn out and significantly wornout and that one you kind of you
capture two of those tongs.
Two, yeah, it's got two thatare close together and one
that's down at the end, and thenyou dip it, yep, and if it dips
all the way in it's worn outand it dipped all the way.
in didn't even come close totouching yeah, and so that's
called a go no go gauge.
Yep, so, and sometimes they'llhave a little step on them.
Yep, uh, and the step will tellyou like it's almost gone yeah,

(14:28):
you got 25 left or something,yep um, my favorite is the blue
one, the cc, uh, dash two, thelittle one, yeah, the um.
The problem with this one isthere's numbers on it that mean
absolutely nothing.
Uh, so like when you this isthe if for people listening,
this is the park tool.
That's like a little blue onewith two little pins that you
put in the chain and then it'sgot a sliding gauge that as you

(14:51):
move it, the pins get a littlefarther apart, yep, and when
they push the chain fartherapart, they tell you how far
it's worn.
So the reason that this one isnot accurate is because
different chains have differentinner diameters and also it
doesn't account for the rollers.
Actually it pushes them apartand it doesn't give you the same

(15:15):
reading because technicallyyou've got to have some under
tension, like the first one andthe last one kind of need to be
at different tension.
I'm explaining this wrong, butwhen you get the three-prong one
that looks like a ruler, whatthat does is it loads that
middle prong.
It loads the roller differentthan this one does, gotcha, and

(15:38):
so it's a little different andit's supposed to be a little
more accurate.
Okay, the problem is it's ago-no-go, so you have no idea
where you're at in between.

And that one actually gives you a….

This one does, it tells you, you're
like 50%.
Yeah, but the numbers lie,because if you put this one onto
a new chain, the zero will notactually be displayed.
In fact, a lot of times it'llbe at 25% or even 35% worn,
depending on the brand of thechain.
And so the reason I like thisone is because I do it so often

(16:10):
that I've developed a feel forwhat a new chain is going to
read and what a semi-worn andwhat a worn out chain.
And this one, when you get offthe scale, we call it off the
scale.
We know that you're past just achain, but if I see it at the
like, 70% or I might say it'sgood, but keep the cassette.

Swap the chain, but keep the cassette
.

It gives you like a sliding gauge
of how much where you've got.
So, okay, okay.
So the chain stretch, you know,is a lot of people hear that
term from a bike shop guy andthey're like oh, my chain
stretch, your, your chain hasnot stretched, the metal does
not stretch.
There's it's.
That's not what's happening.
So what's happening is there'swear.

(16:52):
That's happening.
That causes the rollers to wearon the outside and on the inside
, and so they now migrate backand forth and they can actually
migrate enough to where theystart cutting the valleys
between the teeth on thecassette to a different width.
And so what happens is they'rekind of doing this very slowly,

(17:15):
like the grand canyon over time,and as they wear that that uh
chain, uh that cassette, toothdown and kind of make it
narrower and make that valleybigger because they now have
more slop, because the inside ofthat roller has worn and even
the, the pin is even worn too,yeah, all of these tolerances

(17:35):
kind of stack up and so you canactually take a chain, because
those pins are wearing too, andthe inside roller on the inside
plates will actually getovalized and you can put it on
the table next to a new one andit'll be longer.
So that's why it's called chainslack, chain stretch, because
it is actually longer.
It could be that was my nextquestion, yeah I was like wait a
minute you're saying it doesn'tstretch, but I checked them in

(17:57):
the whole one was longer themetal's not stretching, it's not
like you're putting it on apress and like yanking it and
deforming the metal as far aslike stretching.
What it's happening is you'reputting it on a press and like
yanking it and deforming themetal as far as like stretching.
What it's happening is you'rewearing the inside tolerances to
ovals and bigger, bigger, uh,bigger IDs, inner diameters
which allow each link to have alittle bit of play, like maybe a
half of a millimeter orwhatever.

(18:18):
It is Tiny bit.
And then over you know 126links.
That adds up that over you know126 links.
That adds up that adds up to amuch longer chain.

You know what Claude says.

What is Claude Exactly?

what you said, no way it did.
It says what's really happeningis where between the internal
components of the chain yes, thebicycle chain stretches.
They're not actually stretchingin the way fabric or rubber
might elongate.
It's almost like you could havebeen, claude, no way, no way,
no way.

So I like it when I know my shit
you pretty much always know yourshit dude.
This, though, is a hot buttonfor me, because what is the most
common thing that we see thathappens to customers with chains
is they go into a bike shop.
Whether the bike shop employeeor the customer brings it up,
somebody brings up putting a newchain on, because that's kind

(19:02):
of what they're used to hearingDo a tune-up and I'll do a new
chain on, because that's kind ofwhat they're used to hearing.
Uh, do a tune up and I'll do anew chain.
Nobody has this conversationthat you and I are having.
And then they now put a chainthat has none of that slop, and
those pins are at a very precisedistance from each other.
They don't match up with thecassette is now got these big,
huge valleys and now the rollersdon't fit into those valleys

(19:25):
correctly because they're notworn together, they're not a
married couple, that's what Icall it Like.
It's like that chain and thatcassette got married and so now
when that happens, you basicallythere's not as many of those
teeth are engaged with therollers and you can pop them
over when you put loads on it.
So basically, imagine you're onyour I don't know 22 tooth I'm

(19:46):
making that up but in yourcassette, let's say you're in
your 22th cog and it's reallyworn, but your chain's new and
the rapid chain is usually onlyabout a little over half, so
you're not getting 20.
Let's say you're getting maybe10 or 11 clogs and maybe only
five of those are actuallyengaging deep into the valleys

(20:08):
and the rest aren't.
And now you put a load down, yougo to stand to get and it pops
like crazy.
You get that pop, you know, andif you're standing and
sprinting it can flip you overthe bars Like it can be actually
dangerous, dangerous.
And so, like our teams, wewould always replace you know
those um, not every race, but itwas always safer to have a new

(20:29):
chain and cassette than to riskthat, because if you're
sprinting at you know 200 wattsor whatever those guys, 500
watts or whatever those guys areputting out, it can flip you
over the bars so, just likemarriages, every couple years
you probably need a new one.

You need to get, you need to trade
in, you need to.
Well, and if you don't want todie together, yeah, you need to
replace the female.

Yeah , my marriage my marriage
analogy gets a little weird,cause I always tell people I go,
if you split them up, they'renot happy.
But who knows, maybe they are.
But um, and you know, when yousplit them up and add a new one,
you know that's younger, youknow nobody's happy and maybe
they are, I don't know, dependson if you're in.
La or not.

Oh Jesus, All right, let's stick
with chains.
I've got a couple more chainquestions Okay.

So wait, I have to finish your
question, Sorry.
So here's the hard part, andwhy history has taught me so
much.
As the cassette price getshigher, I am more careful about
how much time I keep that chainon the cassette, because if I
let that get to a point where Ican't just put a chain on, I

(21:34):
have to buy a cassette, and thenyou're looking at a four or
$500.
Yeah.

Well, three or $400.

Yeah , If you're running, you know a
$75 SLX or Dior cassette, youcan wear that stuff together.
I mean it's not that big a deal, it's not a big cost.
But man, some of this stuff is$400 to $500 for a cassette and
it is so much cheaper.
Even to put an $80 chain onthat a couple, two or three
times is still cheaper than anew cassette.

(22:01):
And there are companies this isone thing that the new
generation of chains are isstarting to actually address and
so this is it got really badwith 10 and 11 speed because
they kept getting thinner andthinner and thinner to fit more
cogs on the rear, but theyweren't really addressing the
wear issues and so now theywould wear faster and faster and
faster.
Now that the stuff's expensive,one of the big companies that

(22:24):
makes the big gears that wecan't talk about because you get
all triggered.
So that company has put a bigeffort into durability, and so
here's the crazy thing aboutthose we're seeing durability
issues in a different way.
So on a SRAM system, the Eaglesystems, we didn't see as much
chain stretch.
The Eagle systems, we didn'tsee as much chain stretch, but

(22:44):
we would still have shiftingissues and what we were finding
out is that the chain wasn'tnecessarily getting too long.
The durability was still prettygood on most of the Eagle stuff,
but what it was doing isgetting really side to side
flexible.
And so then what happens iswhen the derailleur is shoving
that that chain over, there's somuch play side to side that it

(23:09):
doesn't push it enough to grabthe next cog and you would get
shifting issues.
And so now Abby tools actuallyhas a chain checker, that for
side to side board.
Yeah, we call it deflection.
And so now you can actuallystart to look at deflection.
So that's a whole nother thingI love this shit, dude.
One question and we're 23minutes in it's, it's a yeah,

(23:30):
it's a big topic, because thisis the thing that it's a
consumable item.

It's expensive.
You want to make sure you'retaking care of it, right, I see?

a lot of fails at the
professional bike shop level,where this conversation doesn't
happen with the customer andthen their bike comes back with
a fresh new chain on it and anold cassette and they go out in
the first ride.
It's popping and skipping andthat customer lose all faith in
that, in that shop and the shopI mean, if they don't take the

(23:57):
time to just make, make thatthat little time, to have that
conversation with the customerand let them know, because
sometimes customers fight us hey, you may need a chain and
cassette.
Oh, no, I don't, you know, justdo the chain.
Okay, we actually make notes inour shop.
Hey, customer was warned, or oror informed, yeah, and then, uh,
refused new cassette, and then,that way, if he comes back, you

(24:18):
know, but just by having theconversation with them and
saying, hey, man, this couldhappen, the customer is much
more likely to go.
Shit those guys were right, youknow, and and come back knowing
that that you know he's, he'sgoing to get help, you know, and
that we didn't screw up.
And so that's a simpleconversation that I urge all

(24:38):
bike shops to have with theircustomers.

Right on.
So summarize all that If thechain still got some life in it,
the more life it has, thebetter chance you have that you
don't have to change thecassette.

Yeah .

Is there any visual things you can
see on the cassette?
It's hard to tell.

No , I even asked.
So there was a whole year thatI spent diving into this and
dealing with it.
No, I'm not kidding, of courseyou did, going to manufacturers
and trying to figure this stuffout.
There was a tool called theRoll-Off Cass cassette checker,
which is a chain, and it'sbasically meant to help you
check that, and some peoplestill use it.

(25:13):
But the idea is to try andfigure out how to check if the
cassette's good, and therehasn't been a real good.
I have not seen one becausethese cassettes a long time ago
in the late 90s, became computerdesigned uh, shift ramps, and

(25:34):
so when you look at a brand newcassette, I've had people bring
them back and go.
This is worn out and there'snothing wrong with it.
Right, because it's got allthese bevels and some of the
teeth are it looks like sharks.

Yes, and wait a minute.
Shark used to be shark.
Tooth was bad on a cassette.
Yeah, they.

Dane "The Suspension Gu (25:43):
They're not consistent because that's
been designed to shift and lift,lift the chains better and so,
um, because of that, it's veryhard to tell the where sometimes
they're.
If they're really bad, you cantell, because you can look at
that valley is so wide, um, butif it's in between it's really
hard to tell.
So if you buy a new bike or,I'm sorry, if you buy a used
bike and the guy's like, oh, Iput a new chain on it, you may

(26:06):
just have to try and figure itout by your ride.
See how it's shifting.
Yeah, don't go race it rightaway, but that's the number one
thing.
People put new chains on allthe time and they don't change
the cassettes.

Okay, next topic, still related to
chains.
Okay, lacey, I put a newtoolkit that mounts to her bike.
It's actually made by Crankcrank brothers.
Okay, it's a combination waterbottle holder.
It's got a bunch of cool toolsin it and everything on the side
.

It's kind of all integrated and then
there's, if you put a waterbottle.

So it's really cool, but it it it's
got a spot to put a quick link.
Yes, and I had run out of sparequick links, so I opened a new
chain.
Yep, I took the quick link out,I put it in lacy's bike and
then a couple weeks later I'mlike shit, I gotta use this
chain.
Yeah, so can I reuse the quicklink?
Can you reuse quick links ornot?

okay , I understand that it's
one-time use we're not going togo into the 20 minute answer.
Um, used to be you could,because they had a lot bigger
and thicker material right.
The new ones are so thin, uh,and so precise that most
manufacturers will say thatthey're not reusable.
Um, from a practical standpoint, uh, when I'm dealing with my

(27:24):
own bikes, not customer spikescause, with customers, we want
them to be safe, but with mykids I don't care.
Um so um, well, they weigh solittle that they're not going to
yeah.
Well, and so because of myknowledge, uh, I will make a
judgment call and if I feel apositive engagement and I feel
that quick link is making apositive engagement I will reuse

(27:48):
it.
So the the manufacturers aredeathly afraid of you reusing it
and it popping loose whileyou're riding, and they don't
want that to happen.
And they it.
They're not that expensive andtheir philosophy is just get a
new one.
You know it'll be safer, it'llbe stronger, you'll have less
problems.
If that thing comes open whileyou're riding, it could cause
you know all kinds of problems.

All kinds of problems.

So so the the, the corporate
answer is get a new one.
Um, the bike shop answer iswe're going to put a new one on
your bike.
Um, the Dane at home, uh, usingusing his head is I'm going to
feel for that positiveengagement.
If that thing goes together andit feels super loose, if you
can take it apart without a tool, that's a problem.

(28:31):
Do not use that thing.
But if you're feeling like agood click into place, or if you
have to hit that crank to getit to pop that thing into place,
then you're probably okay.
I'll save a lot of my old QuickLinks and use them as my spares
.

Okay.

Because I know that they still got one
or two uses in them Just to getyou home.
Yeah, It'll get me home yeah.
Uh and I'm not going to use itfor my main.
It'll be an emergency one.
So, um plus, it's easier to geton the trail.

It's a little bit easier to put
together Some of the new onesare a nightmare to try and get
them all like they're.
They're so tight instructionsthat I've seen online but
there's there's a number ofYouTube videos out there about
like how to get a quick link toengage and disengage on the
trail using the bike, using thecranks, there's all all

(29:19):
different.
Using shoelaces, I've seen abunch of different methods.
Were you on the couch next tome?
I think I was in my underwear.

Yeah , it was perfect.
Um, but yeah the um, but yeahthe um.
Uh, I will say that, having aset, we do we sell those wolf
tooth um, they're uh quick linkpliers, yeah, and they've got a
tire lever built in and they'llhold your quick links.
Okay, it's a cool little piece.
It's.
It's kind of cool.
I mean, if you're into tools,that's one of my favorites.
Uh, it pulls them apart, putsthem back together, holds the

(29:48):
quick links tire lever.
It's cool.
It's it's not, you know, heavy.
So, uh, I like that one.
Uh, so that tends to be one ofmy favorites.

I don't carry anything with me.
I do use at home in my homemechanic shop.

I do have like the park ones and
I was so stoked when theyredesigned them to be able to go
open and close because it usedto just be closed.
How mad were people when theyjust had the closed one or the
open one, you know, and they'relike God damn it, I just ground
mine down and made that tool soof course you did.

Did you let them know?

No , no, that was before I was into
Instagram, so I wasn't taggingthem on Instagram about stuff.
So but uh, I think by the timeI released this one have heard
in the park episode already,because in that episode was it

(30:36):
in the episode or after theepisode where you gave them a
design.

I think it was after I told them
about the the cube.
The cube, yeah, I think it wasafter the episode, though, oh
really, I can't remember.
Maybe it was during.
That doesn't matter.

Yeah , dane's a, a honorary, I guess,
engineer for, yeah, tools ifyou, if you check out the, is it
my instagram or was it?
Yeah, I think it was a myInstagram because that is a
suspensions Instagram, you'llsee me convert the park tool
that's cool, all right, one morechain question.

Okay, I have run into this a few times
and I just ran into it recently.
I got two links your linksshould move kind of freely, yep
and I got like some sticky links, yeah, so what do you do about?

sticky links.
So, and I got like some stickylinks, yeah.
So what do you do about stickylinks?
So, most of the time so back inthe olden day you used to push
and pull the pins or you woulduse a pin to connect the chain
and you could get a sticky linkbecause that pin either wasn't
in correctly or it was over toone side or too much.
So if you've got an 8-speed ora 9-speed bike, even some

(31:29):
10-speeds, you may have thatissue.
But at the 11 and 12, theypretty much got into quick links
and so that's not an issue.
Most of the time we see thatbecause you've hit a rock with
it and it smashed the links, thetwo links.
This was at the quick link, Atthe quick link.

At a sticky link.

Like the quick link was sticky.
Yeah, sounds like you put ittogether wrong or you had the
wrong one.

Yeah, it was a 12-speed SRAM chain and
a 12-speed SRAM quick link.
Are you sure there's no dirt inthere?
I did so.
I'll tell you what I did.
Okay, and I got it to work.

Yeah .

You can tell me how bad I screwed it
up.
I rock it forth, I rocked itback and forth.
That helped a little.
Yeah, then I took a little tinyflat screwdriver, uh-huh, put
it in there and just ever socarefully stretched a little bit
and then got it to start moving.

Yeah , that's probably fine too.
It's weird that it would dothat it was the first time I've
ever seen it yeah, so um, from alike a you know, technical
standpoint, it shouldn't do that, but real life stuff like that
happens yeah so, um, and whoknows you know if one of those
quick link studs is just a hairshorter than the other, or
something like that.
But, um, what we see a lot instick sticky links is the um two

(32:40):
links that are overlapped.
Get smashed on a rock on yourchain ring and then they get
pressed together, yeah, and thenyou'll hear them click that's
as they go around, yeah, and ifthey're really bad they can jam
your derailleur and stuff, andso that is very difficult to fix
.
In fact, in when we were doingneutral support at a race in
tucson here called the tucsontenor, um we, uh, we had a

(33:04):
customer not a customer, he wasjust a racer uh, come up, and he
had done that and we ended upgetting him a new chain because
we couldn't get it to not didyou change?

did you change the cassette?

no , and in fact he was.
He was really bummed becausethe bike was new, so we were
pretty confident that it was, hewasn't going to have a problem.
But it's funny because he cameback and I think he had a uh, he
broke his pedal and then healso had like had no sealant in
his tires and I saw a couple ofdifferent times.

Yeah, this was the same race.
This guy did not maintain hisbike at all.

I saw him at the bike swap and
he's like yeah, I just sat in achair and watched the rest of
the race.
He's like I was done.

You should have him come down.
I thought it was hilarious.

So and he goes hey, I'm doing the
whiskey, the whiskey race inArizona, in Prescott, prescott,
prescott, prescott, prescott,prescott, prescott.

Josh "Magellan" Anders (33:56):
Prescott , prescott.

Dane "The Suspension G (33:58):
Prescott .
For those of you who don't know, there's a certain way that you
say this name, prescott, butit's not spelled that way.

It's spelled like Prescott, prescott,
prescott.

So but anyway, this big race, he's
going to that and I said, comeby and we'll check your bike out
and make sure it's good.

Yeah, it's going to be a little tough
to get neutral support out inthe whiskey?

Yeah , right, yeah, because it's not
a loop, it's a 50 mile or 25mile depending on what you're
doing Roughly All right.

Another recent thing that I experienced
on the trail was a broken spokeoh gosh, and what I did was
wrapped that broken spoke around.

Another spoke and rode home.
Yeah, that's pretty much allyou can do Now.
There used to be and I thinkyou can still get them these
Kevlar replacements which werekind of cool.
They were just kind of a pieceof Kevlar and you could… Like
glue it together almost Not glue, it's like a Kevlar
replacements which were kind ofcool.
They were just kind of a pieceof Kevlar and you could Like
glue it together almost Not glue, it's like a Kevlar strand and
then you could tie it.
Oh, I got you.

If you had enough, you could tie it to
both and maintain some tension.

It really depended on where it
broke.
So a lot of spokes will break,in most cases at two places.
They'll break where the threadsend, because that's traumatic.
Being threaded is traumatic tothat steel and that's a weak
point and it's a stress riser.

This is another aspect of nipple
management right now?

Yes , exactly yes.
I know a lot about nipples, butnipples don't break spokes,
it's the spoke that actuallybreaks itself.
Yeah, and then the bend, the Jbend, the j bend is the other
one.
So again, when they turn thatmetal it heats up real j bend is
where it fits into the hub yeah, and some of them are straight
pull for that reason.

So because you don't have the weak
part yeah, yeah.

And then the other thing obviously
is a rock strike or somethinghappening to the spoke then it
could happen anywhere yep, yeah,it can happen in the middle.
So these little kevlar ones werereally cool because you could
put them on.
So you know, I think they'restill out there and if you're a
bike packer or if you'resomebody who does these long
Epic rides, those would besomething to definitely invest
in.
But for most of us that are onlike an hour to two hour ride,
you could ride out on that.

(36:02):
Just be easy on it, becausealuminum once one spokes missing
that support on that rim is alittle bit softer and you can
develop a flat spot.

So interesting, all right, so I did
okay.
I did okay on the twisting thespoke around.
Another spoke.

Yeah , got me home dude, that way
it's not flopping around orstabbing you.
You're not sitting there in the, you know, trying to pull the
cassette off, to try and pullthe spoke out, or anything like
that.

Oh my god, so I can't imagine trying
to pull a cassette off on thetrail.
Uh, sometimes they fall offsometimes.
Well, yeah, if they're nottight, I've had that happen yeah
, if you got a dt swiss with noo-ring I can't tell you how many
times lacy's come back andshe's like my bike's shifting
like shit and I go and I likewiggle her cassette, I'm like
your cassette's loose again.

Was the cassette loose or was there
axle cassette?

Oh, what hub?
Uh, good question, this was onher.
It was the stock Scott scalewheels that came.
I think there were synchro rimsand I don't know if the hub.
I think it was synchro labeled,but I don't know who actually
manufactured the hub, yeah,that's it's weird.

To have cassettes come loose on
the regular, that's that's weird.
So she rides a lot, though, Iknow, but that lock ring goes at
a certain torque, yeah.

So I feel like you need to give it a
little oomph a little oomph yeahI uh, I think it's like around
40 psi or 40 newton meters isthe torque setting for probably
it's probably written on it.
I just have a certain amount ofdegrees after engagement that
it is I gotta tell you it isfucking hilarious watching, like
if you could compare andcontrast how I work on bikes and
how you work on bikes, like youset up Lacey's fork on her, on

(37:37):
her switchblade.

Yeah , a couple of days ago.
Yeah.

And you like push it twist, push it
twist, just do it real quick andyou're like I need needs a
little more air and you're done.
That would have been like a twohour process for me measuring,
looking shit up and you're likethat doesn't feel quite right,
let's do this.

Hi , you know, uh, we were talking
about consumer direct on one ofour podcasts and get that, and
that is one of the things thaton one, I truthfully I forget
that we do you know.
So I worked on my uh, uh,washing, no, my dryer, uh, one
day.
And you were like looking shitup and it took you a long time
it was like two days, my entireweekend, to try and fix this
stupid thing, because I didn'twant to spend the $75 for the

(38:21):
house call or whatever, and I'mjust thinking to myself.

you know, I could have been riding
both days and just had a guycome out and spent the 75 bucks
done it in half an hour and Iwouldn't have had two days
missing out of my life.

You know, and that's the problem,
though, as I did the same thing,I was like looking up stuff,
trying to figure it out twodifferent runs to the part store
, cause I got the wrong part.
You know, they weren't open onSunday, so then I had to still
go back Monday, so it was reallythree days, you know.
But, um, but yeah, it's, it'sfunny how we are.
I mean, I like to fix stuff, sothere's nothing wrong with it.

It feels manly to say like my
fridge broke and I fixed it.
Yeah, it totally does.

But at some point, like I don't
change the oil in my car becauseI could, but I don't want to
crawl under there, get thebloody knuckles, get all dirty,
have to deal with everything,I'd rather drop it off, which is
funny looking at you right now,all dirty covered in oil but
I'll drop my car off, I'll takethe bike off, I'll go for a ride
for an hour and then I'll comeback.
It'll be done, I'll have a rideand it costs me like 30 bucks,

(39:20):
you know, and I.
You know, there's a certainpoint where you get to where
your time.
I used to spend an entire daycleaning my own car because I
had all this time and no money.
Now I'm angry if I have tospend 10 minutes of the car.

All right.
Next question Um, I've had somelessons from some folks that
are more gravity oriented.
Okay, to help me improve mygravity skills.
And shout out to Lacey who,when I talked to her about
coaching jelly, I was likelisten, woman, you have to.
I didn't actually say woman, Iprobably did, but she knew it
was, it was.
It was with good intent, butI'm like you are so good at this

(39:59):
and I'm not, you have got tocoach me as well and I can
handle it.

Yeah .

Like you can come out and tell me
what I'm doing wrong and I'lllisten and I'll.
I won't get mad at you and Ineed to learn from you.
She knows this stuff.
Teach me how to do it.
So I'm stoked.
So shout out to Lacey foragreeing to coach me.

Dane "The Suspension Guru (40:14):
We'll see how that goes.
We'll see in three months ifwe're still married.
Right, I have no doubt.

We've been through much harder things
than coaching on mountain biking.
And I am actually very humbleabout that, but the homegrown
folks, tara over there, whichwe've had Tara on on a past
podcast.
I don't remember the episodebut the great, great.

They actually took Jess and the
Colorado kid out this weekend upto uh up to uh bugs up to bugs
and they got, they got caught ina storm.
Oh yeah, that's right, it wassnowing up, yeah Super funny.

They don't tighten their or they keep
their shifter and their brakelevers a little bit loose, not
loose where it's like rattlingaround, but loose enough to
where you can actually likephysically move it with your
hands.
And the perspective there, theytold me, was so that when they
crash it doesn't break the leveroff, it just shifts the lever.

So what are?

your thoughts on that recommendation.

That's an old moto trick so that again
, again, when you crash youdon't break something off.
We used to do that on downhillbikes.
So, um, again, you know, uh,grain of salt with what I'm
saying, but we did that with ourdownhill bikes.
I still do it to this day, likeI don't have them super loose,
but I don't focus so much onmaking them super tight either.

(41:32):
You know, um, uh, it's, it'spretty good.
I don't knock on wood.
There's wood here and I'mknocking.
Hear me knocking.

Um uh, I have not broken a brake lever
so but I definitely had myhappening.
I definitely had to happentomorrow.

I definitely had my brake levers
like cockeyed.
You know when I get up from theground.

So do you keep yours a little loose,
or no?

Yeah , I do.
I just don't go to town on them, you know, and so I don't make
them loose.
So the loose is a bad word.
Uh, I would say not.
I don't yeah, Well, becauseit's not.

they're not loose, they're very solid
you know, and they don't moveunder normal.
But you could.
If you put enough pressure justwith your hand, you could spin
them.

I have to hit them with my palm
to move them, so I can't justpush them down with my fingers.
And that's probably if I had togive somebody some sort of
guidance on how to do this athome, I would say you should not
be able to push them down whenyour hand is on the grip with
your fingers.
You should not be able to pushthem down.
They shouldn't be that loose.
You should have to kind ofhammer them with your palm to

(42:32):
get them to move of course we dorecommend following the
manufacturers.
Yes, yeah, suggested the otherthing is carbon makes it a
little weird because, uh, youdon't want to be scarring carbon
, so each circumstance are alittle different.
Downhillers and most of mydownhill bikes usually have
alloy bars and not carbon ones,but I still do it on my Enduro
bikes and they're carbonInteresting.

(42:54):
But yeah, it's just the amountthat you tighten them.
You just don't go to this huge,super tight spec to where they
don't budge, because then you'rebreaking bars too Right on man.
Yeah, I would say that's.
If you're going to do it, do itsafely and make sure that
you're not dumb.

Don't be dumb, don't be dumb, don't be
dumb.
That's our advice.
All right, uh, next question.
Okay, I uh, as you know, forwhatever reason, like to
experiment.
I found the for the perfectpedal.
Like, I just love these, theseHT, they're nylon pedals.
They're somewhere around $50.
Yeah, we sell them Um big.
They got big big platform worksfor my feet.

(43:36):
They're super light.

They're inexpensive.

Yeah, every time and for whatever
reason, I keep buying differentpedals to try, and then I try
them for one or two rides.
I don't like them and and thishappened with the Canfield
pedals great pedals.

Dane "The Suspension Guru (43:51):
Lacey loves them.
The platform's not big enoughfor my foot.
That's basically not much I cando about that.
They got the q factor reallynarrow on it yes which causes,
even though they have a bigplatform, it causes you not to
have as much foot room, correct?

and, and I was a little bummed
because on the spec sheet, yeah,they measure out about the same
size platform, but on those,because the q factor, like you
said, the they're actually alittle closer to the spindle or
they're a little closer to thecrank, and so I just didn't have
enough room for my feet.
Yeah, anyways, every singletime I get a new set of pedals,
I get a bunch of replacementpins with the pedals, and so

(44:22):
here's my question have youactually ever replaced the pins
on a set of pedals?

Yeah , I got two stories.
One it's a ridiculous story, um, so I am a weight weenie, which
I shouldn't be, because if Ijust don't tell me you're taking
pins out to reduce weight.
No, no okay but, um, I boughtthe lightest pedals on the
market, like at the time theywere hts, coincidentally shout
out to ht and I don't rememberwhat they are, but they're

(44:48):
magnesium.
And then, in order to make them,they had titanium spindles, and
to make them as light as that,to claim the lightest, they, the
pins were alloy instead ofsteel, and so, uh, they were set
.
Screw they were.
There were button head screwsthat would go through, so the
button head would stop and you'dhave the exposed thread on the
other side, and so these werejust little alloy button heads.

And they probably wore out in like
five rides or something.

So I have a knee issue.
One of the reasons that I doride e-bike more often is
because I have knee issues andI've had it.
I don't know where it came from, I think El Tour, so road
riding did it to me but thisknee issue causes my knee to
kind of move in and out as Iride, which causes my foot to

(45:35):
turn, so I basically it's likeI'm, you know, going pigeon toe,
you know was it?
Was it, um, uh, the ski termpizza?
French fries, you know, so my my, my feet are doing that while
I'm riding, and so when I'm inclipless it hurts my knees
because I can't get enough floatRight.
So all this I found out becauseof these pedals, because I

(45:57):
would start riding them and bythe end of the ride I would
almost be slipping off of themBecause that movement was
snapping those things off.
Oh, my gosh, yeah, and so I'dcome back and all the button
heads are still there, but thespikes are gone.

Yeah, no-transcript.

Yes , that's the weird story, that's
the crazy story.
So now your poly pedals, it'swhat we call them.
They're poly plastic,polyurethane.
Those are the ones that I havethe most problems with, not
because I ripped the the thespikes out, but because they
loosen up.
So I have to go throughprobably every two months, and

(46:36):
tighten them.

I've had to tighten them, but I've
never actually replaced them.

No , though, different ones are
better than others, and so, likeI have a set of um oh geez, I
have so many pedals, I have havesome 2000 from 2012 inner bike.
Uh, crank brothers would dothese laser etched uh
commemorative pedals for innerbike.
They do them in a certain colorand they would have the date
and inner bike on them.

(47:00):
and I have a couple sets ofthose and, um, one of my
downhill sets is, I thinkthey're the mallets with those
pins, yeah, and those are setscrews where they have the Allen
wrench in the set screw, yep,and so you hit a rock with that.

And that interface is gone.
You can't get the Allen wrenchin there.
Exactly yeah.

So I shy away from those when I'm
buying them.
So I usually, if I'm looking ata pedal, I usually have kind of
a life in them and I don'treally tend to reach that life
where I'm really putting a lotof pins in it.
If it gets to where I need todo a lot of pins and I've just
really scraped the shit out ofthem on rocks, I'll just get a
new set of pedals, um, butthey're getting pricey now.

(47:39):
You know, like they're 100 to150 for alloy and I sometimes
just want that color, so youknow.
So I've actually been buying alot of the poly pedals.
A lot of the pro riders areusing them too, uh, because they
tend to glance off rocks, uh,so instead of an alloy, which
will kind of curl up thealuminum on the rock and then

(48:01):
create more of a dam and slowyou down more, uh, the polys
will just shear off and justkind of shave a little poly off
as you hit the rock, yeah, andso, um, the only thing that I'll
warn you with the polys is thatthe pedal bearing quality is
lower.
So I mean, they're not cheappedals because poly is that much
cheaper than aluminum.
It's because the rest of thepedal is not super high quality

(48:23):
either.
Oh interesting, and so that'sthe only drawback.
But at $50, you can get threepairs of those to 150 pair of
alloys yeah so if you aresomebody who are hard on pedals
and tired of spending money onthem, I would say go for it, get
the polys.
But if you don't really scrapeyour pedals a lot in your bike,
you want your bike to look pimp.

The alloys are going to be cooler
the hd pedals I use are someweird number.
It's like pa8, something it's a, o e something.

I don't know what.
I think it's alloy something, Ithink myrp, which is the poly
ones probably oh yeah, the poly,yes, yeah, yeah so anyways,
I'll put a link in the shownotes and I have m e or m a, I
can't remember.
So the the light ones aremagnesium.

So oh, right on, yeah, I'll.
Uh, I'll put a link in the shownotes.
I want some titanium, onestitanium, because titanium
sparks oh titanium sparks, oh,interesting.

I don't think I've seen titanium
pedals.
I mean, I think that would beexcessive and probably super
expensive but it would be superexpensive.
It'd be awesome, cause theywould spark every time you hit
it.
You can start lots of firesthat way.

Not a good thing for the desert.
Not, let's, let's not dotitanium pedals.
Maybe that's why they don'tmake up is because they spark.
All right, all right, um, nextquestion.
So was riding with my buddy theother day and we're in the
garage, whatever before the ride, and his chain was like just
bone dry and I understand thatlike, and this is not.
He doesn't use wax, so let'stake wax off the table for a

(49:42):
second I understand that allwaxes or just the dipping wax?
all waxes.
Take all waxes off the tablefor a second.
I understand that it probablythe answer probably really
depends on the type of lube thatyou're using.
But I'm like, how frequently doyou lube this thing?
And he's like I don't know, assoon as it starts making noise,
maybe once every two months orsomething, he rides quite a bit,
yeah so so here's my questionlike how often should you lube

(50:07):
your chain with non-wax chain?
I know it depends on conditions, yeah, depends on the type of
lube, but like yeah, here's thedisclaimer.

Keep in mind we're in the desert, uh
, we have very little uh liquid,no rain.
None of us are hardly everriding in any moisture, so this
will be skewed towards that.
So, for all you guys in the pnwor ladies in, uh, boston or
wherever where you actually havewater, uh, this doesn't
increase the frequency a lot,yeah, so, um, so, wet lubes in
general actually do better inthose environments, because the

(50:38):
wet lube doesn't get washed awayas easily, right, um, but uh,
in our desert, uh, probably, ifI compare it to, so like dry is
every around 50 miles, so thatcould be two to three rides for
somebody, and then a wet may betwice that.

So 100 miles.

Yeah , but what it is is it's harder
for it to come off, whereas thedry lube actually actively falls
off of your chain because asdebris sticks onto it it gets
heavier and starts to come offand so, uh, it's a shedding type
type concept versus thelubricating like liquidy.
You know stuff, you have towait for that to seep out, you

(51:23):
know can you over lube a chain?
oh, absolutely, oh my god, yeah,get crazy.
Also, if you mix them I don'tknow if people know this, but if
you mix a wet and a dry, you'llget the gunkiest, nastiest
stuff and it'll build up It'll.
Uh, there's awesome pictures onthe internet of police that are
like you can't even tellthey're police because there's
so much of this gunk, you know,Um, so they don't mix well.

(51:46):
So we always ask customers youknow, what lube do you use?
Or, for the most part, we canactually feel the chain when
we're working on it and kind ofhave a good idea of what, what
lube they're using.
Um, not exactly, but whetherit's wet or dry and uh, and so
we can kind of appropriatelyloop their chains.

So I saw this random text in a group
group text chat that some of myold buddies have and it just
said randomly, with no contextFYI, toothpaste does not make
for a good lube.
This was not in reference tobicycles.

Dane "The Suspension (52:20):
Toothpaste is a polishing compound.
Just so you know.
It is not a lube.
Did you know that WD 40 is nota loop?
What is it?
It's a water displacement,interesting, yeah, so wd-40, uh,
is a water displacement yeahand so, uh, will it make stuff
not squeak as much?

(52:40):
absolutely, because it has someproperties of that, but it's
actually not a lube.
So so when the wd-40 startedmaking bike lubes, I had a very
hard time with that because Iknew they were making an actual
lube, but naming it wd 40 wasvery counterintuitive.
So, and some people willprobably message us saying that
they love wd 40 bike lube, um,but doesn't wd 40 actually make

(53:04):
lubrication lubricating productsnow, like the brand wd 40.
Yeah, that's what I mean.
They make bike lube, so theymake actual bike loop now.

So yeah, so it's different than
there.

It's , it's the same company, but
yeah, it's just.
It was weird, cause I've alwaysI was always taught, you know
from friends, you know this isnot a lubricant.
So, and doors and stuff likethat, I love that triflow
triflow is a wet bicycle loop.
Yeah, and like a lot of oldpeople will remember the
three-in-one oil or somethinglike that or uh.

(53:34):
Another one that actually, uh,bike people use is t9 bioshield.
Yeah, so that's a reallypopular one too, oh interesting.

I think that I think that's used
for guns too.
It's all kinds of stuff.

Yeah , it's kind of crazy, so
interesting people stickanything on their bike chain and
make it fly.

Okay, uh, next question.
I guess I keep saying nextquestion, yeah, cause I got a
bunch of questions here.
That's correct.
Um, a lot of carbon bikes thesedays and I have a pet peeve
about carbon chain stays, causeI've had bad luck with carbon
chainstays and or seat stays,either one, really.
Uh, just a rear triangle ingeneral, and when we had the
carbon fix guys on they werelike, yeah, those chainstays go
a lot, they do a lot of carbonrepair on chainstays, so I think

(54:22):
that they I think bikes shouldmy my personal on with support,
with no data to support thisopinion, is that bicycle brands
should be making the reartriangle out of aluminum instead
of carbon.
But, um, as you know, when wewere up in at the Windsor trail
is that right Outside of SantaFe, yep we discovered late that
Lacey had cracked her chain stayon her pivot on her switchblade

(54:46):
.

Uh yeah.

And her pivot switchblade, which we
think.
Well, there's a debate on whenthis happened.
One person thinks it happenedduring the ride, one person in
our family thinks it happenedduring transport in a shuttle
situation.
We don't have to get intospecifics there, but there's
different opinions.
So here's my question if you dohave carbon damage on your bike

(55:10):
, whether it's on a rim or aframe or a handlebar or whatever
like, how can you tell?

is it safe to ride.
So if it's on a handlebar, it'snot safe, okay.
So I just crashed hard on mybike.
Yeah, that crash shook you up,man.
Yeah, I did with my brand newone-up uh bars and I scarred the
top of them.
It's not super deep, but I'mnot going to ride them.
They're going to go on the wall.
I and I already pulled them offthe bike.

So any damage to a handlebar your
advice the way that I ride.

Now I will tell you that and I am
saying this jokingly, but I'msaying this with seriousness my
kids bars are carbon and theyhave marks on them.
I got them from my buddy.
Um, I think they're superficial.
They have like on them.
I got them from my buddy.
I think they're superficial.
They have like a clear coatissue where clear coat is kind
of flaking and stuff.
And I know that they're strong,they're Renthal, they're super

(56:06):
strong bars.
I know that at their weightsand the way they ride they're
going to be fine.
The way that I ride, one layerof carbon missing from that bar,
especially since I'm riding abar like a downhill bike and the
bar is probably rated for trail.
Uh, I'm just not going to takea risk.
Yeah, and so I used to have envydownhill bars on my downhill
bikes and same thing.

(56:27):
I got a crash and I put a goodtwo to three layers of carbon
gone in the scratch and to methat's.
I mean there may only be, Idon't know how many there are,
because one of the things aboutcarbon is they compact it, and
so it could have 30 layers, butit's still really thin.

But two to three layers is just
enough for me to wear it, youknow we're going to have some
carbon experts that are going towrite us up and be like you
guys are fucking wrong.

Well , whatever they say, they won't
be able to argue that if youdamage your carbon handlebars,
you do not ride those there yougo, because that's the front of
the bike.
It's a pretty definitive superhigh.
Even even if they're fine, it'snot worth the risk.
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's just notworth it.
It's I, you know you're what?
160 bucks for a if that thingbreaks.

(57:20):
And I had a buddy who was aweight weenie and he bought one
of these chinese aftermarketstupid light bars off of
aliexpress or whatever and wasat the uh race in the white
mountains um, the tour, thewhite mountains, and that bar
broke on him and sent him to theground and and it wasn't worth
saving that 20 grams or 30 gramsthat he saved, it just wasn't
right.
So, um, so what about on aframe?
Uh, so frames.
Same philosophy in our, in ourshop, where, if it's anywhere

(57:43):
near the front of the bike, the,the steer tube or the head tube
, where we recommend not fixingit, but, um, as you go to the
back of the bike and any kind oflike not fixing it.
Yeah, not fixing it yeah.

Okay, Just not, not, not, not riding
it but not fixing it.

Well , so yeah, so like, uh, like, I
would never even fix carbon bars, I just wouldn't do that Okay.
Um, on bike frames, though.
There's some really good,talented um uh carbon repair
facilities all around thecountry, you know, and these,
these uh facilities have beenfixing carbon for a long time.

(58:18):
If some guy has just taken superglue in his garage, that's not
quite what I'm talking about.
We're talking aboutprofessionals who are actually
staking their reputation.
Have a business.
If it's your buddy who used tofix boats doing it, I would be
careful.
I would I always kind of weighthat with….

Not the same structural integrity in
a boat that he needed amountain bike.

Well , and, and you know, I mean
there is some, some differencesin the materials.
You know the the the pivot,bernard Kerr crashing out on
that pivot prototype, but thatwas a adhesion issue between
carbon and aluminum.

Yeah.

And that was professionals who are
building this things, buildingthese things that at the top of
the had they found something outwith that?
They found out.
Maybe either they made amistake or their material wasn't
at the same spec that it shouldhave been Something in the
curing process.

Josh "Magellan" Ander (59:09):
something , something went wrong.

So you want a professional doing
this, but we have a one in town.
That's great.
There's a couple in Phoenixthat are great.
They're all over the countryyeah, get one with a good
reputation.

Yeah, go to your LBS and ask them what
they recommend.

But we tend to not favor anything
near the front the head tubesbecause, again, lots of stress,
and my philosophy is ifsomething breaks, what happens?
So let's say, your chain stayor your seat stay, break after
you've had it repaired, you skidout.
Let's say, your chain stay oryour seat stay, break after
you've had it repaired, you skidout.
Most of the time the bike comesto a stop it doesn't flip you
over the bars, it doesn'tseparate and send you face first

(59:44):
.
You're basically maybe walkingout, and so I kind of look at
that.
Other things aren't practical.
So like bottom bracket areassometimes get tricky because
there's a lot of torque and alot of different energies going
all different directions.
And then rims I've had good andbad luck with getting carbon
rims fixed, because it's a thinarea that holds pressure so it

(01:00:07):
has to hold basically tensionand it has to be impact
resistant and so that gets weirdtoo.
So carbon rims are a littleweird fixing them too, because
at first, when they first cameout, we were fixing them.
Now I kind of favor thecompanies that have lifetime
warranties.

Josh "Magellan" Anderson (01:00:24):
So if you crash on a trail and it
doesn't disable your bike, takethe headset out or take
something in the front of thebike.
Like you did something.
I'm trying to get you to give aspecific answer, which is what
you did with Lacey's chain stateat determine whether she should
ride or not, and we determinedat that time that she should not
?
What was it that you did tokind of?

Dane "The Suspension Guru (01:00:41):
check that part.
So one of the really like oldschool ways is to take a nickel
out and just tap the carbon.
And if you're tapping thecarbon and or you're pushing on
it and it's got deflection andit's obviously softer in that
area, it's definitely cracked.

So softer.
And then the nickel or somekind of change tone.
You can hear the tone change.

Dane "The Suspension Guru" H (01:01:01):
As you're tapping, You'll hear a
tone change.
Those are big indications.
Now, on her bike, I feel likeshe could have ridden out.

I just would have told her not to hit
the jumps and uh we were at this, we hadn't gone up yet Remember
, it was in the parking lotBefore we started, and so we're
like, eh, let's just take each.

Dane "The Suspension Guru" Hi (01:01:15):
I think she took and also that's
a personal choice, like I feellike if something goes wrong on
my bike I can come to a completestop and safely there's other
people that will not have thatLike me.
Yeah, and so like you want todo it within your comfort zone.
Right so uh, but if you're inthe middle of a trail and you
need to get out, so on the wallbehind me, which nobody can see

(01:01:38):
on the podcast.

But all I see is Shimano.

Dane "The Suspension Guru" (01:01:40):
Josh can over here above my computer
.
Uh, there is a chain stay, uhthat.
Uh, justin broke on his bikeand it has a stick duct tape to
it to hold it together.

So do you see that?
Yeah, that's how he got home,that's how he got home.

Dane "The Suspension Gur (01:01:54):
That's how he got home.

You guys had duct tape out there on
the trail.
No, he does?

He puts duct tape around his pump.

Oh cool.

So he's always got a little duct
tape going, and so, yeah, hispump will always have this band
of duct tape around it so thathe can use it whenever he needs
it, and obviously at work heneeded it at least one time.
Yeah, yeah, he splinted thatsucker and wrote it, so you know
there's nothing wrong with that.
So it's amazing Zip ties, ducttape and I don't know.
This is an old school trick,but we needed it at the tenor

(01:02:26):
Having a replacing your bottlecage bolts with SPD cleat bolts
so that if you lose one of yourSPD cleat bolts, you have a
spare.

Oh, interesting, and they're the
same thread pitch oh interesting.

So that was an old school trick.
So your bottle cages would havecleat bolts holding them.

Josh "Magellan" And (01:02:47):
Interesting .
Yeah, all right, a couple morehere, okay, and I think we've
timed the number of questionsappropriately to the amount of
time Nice, we're doing good, allright.
I was getting ready for ratherday and it had taken my helmet
off the rack and my helmet slidoff and I set it on the top of
my car and the helmet slid offthe car and crashed on the
ground.

Okay .

And so I'm like, oh Jesus, Because
I've always been told one crashand you're done with your helmet
.
Yeah, so does that include whenI drop my helmet from about
four feet in the air ontoconcrete?
And I know you're going to erron the side of caution?

here .
No, I'm going to give you thefull answer, remember just like
I did before I'll give you thecorporate answer, which is if
that's taken an impact, it'slost some of its impact.

Josh "Magellan" Ande (01:03:28):
resistance it's not as safe.

And it's not as safe.
That's the corporate answer.

Damn it, I need a new helmet?

Yeah , the more practical answer is
that you know, if you don't feellike it took a big bounce and
it didn't really take a big hit,you're probably okay.
You definitely want to inspectit and look inside, make sure
there's no cracks in the foam,whether or not you can see that.

Or to see the foam's compressed or
anything like that, yeah exactly.

It's hard to see that on the outside
?
Yep, I got hard to see that onthe outside.
Yep, I got you um, and then um,that is just you dropping it
right, which doesn't have yourmass in it, and so it's good
chance that it's okay.
Okay, um, if it's a super lightroadie helmet and maybe hits the
right way, it could actually dosome damage, because those
things are are minimal to keepweight down and high flow of air

(01:04:15):
, and so they're not designedmaybe to take an impact a
certain way without somethinginside of them you know.
So you can actually uh hurtthem, and so you, you want to
use a good uh judge judgment andnot let your, your wallet, be
the deciding factor.
You need to let your, your selfworth and your safety be the
deciding factor.

It's probably worth just explaining.
Make sure that our listenersunderstand that like these
helmets are kind of likestyrofoam inside and they're
actually designed to compressand that's what takes the impact
.
And if you compress that, youknow if you compress that
styrofoam now, if you crashagain, it's not going to be able
to compress as much, and soyour level of protection of that

(01:04:55):
helmet is decreased.

Yeah , and then the big thing that
people don't know about in a lotof cases is that they have a
shelf life.
That was my next question.
Yeah, so helmets, styrofoambreaks down, gets brittle,
starts to decompose.
Believe it or not, you know,even though it takes forever,
it'll start to get brittle andit'll start to get less elastic,
yeah, and less cushion and more, you know, crumbly and so um,

(01:05:22):
so obviously less ability, lessable to, yeah provide its
protection exactly, and so mostmanufacturers will, in the
literature, tell you roughly itsage.
It used to be three to fouryears.
It's there's some processesthey do where they build the
plastic into the foam now, andso in mold is what some of them
call it.
But, basically, the plastic isno longer just a taped on cover,

(01:05:46):
which it was for a long time.
It's now part of the helmet andthat's made their lifespan a
little longer, Okay.
And then there's also differentcircumstances.
So when you crash on yourhelmet, the hardest thing is to
know if that helmet hascompressed and won't be safe
again.
And if you were to crash in asimilar way which, believe it or

(01:06:10):
not, we tend to crash the sameway.
We don't tend to crash in adifferent way every time.
We tend to make the samemistakes, and so if you crash
again, will it protect you?
And so you know.
I would say the biggest thingthat I see people do that they
shouldn't do is don't use yourwallet to decide that.
You know.

(01:06:30):
Don't be afraid to get a newhelmet.
Some companies will have crashreplacement policies where they
give you a discount.
There's a couple companies thatwill just replace the helmet,
which is awesome.

So that tells me that they got a
huge margin on those helmets.
Well, it also can afford that.

It also says that they want to
break that barrier of you notbeing safe.

You know that's cool.
There's probably a liabilitylike reason that they do that
too.

It helps them for the most and
it's also a selling feature.
If there's one companyAbsolutely man, I'm going to say
this, but I'm pretty sure Laserhas something like that.
We carry Laser.
I can't remember, but you'vegot to check the fine print.
Who makes Laser?
Laser is the oldest helmetmanufacturer in the world.

Aren't they owned by Shimano?

Dane "The Suspension Gu (01:07:11):
Shimano is their.
So this is where it's tricky.
Shimano North America is theirdistributor.
I'm not sure if they're theirowner.
Oh interesting so.
I'm not a hundred percent sureon that, I could be wrong.
Uh, but that is a little cloudy, cause we get them from Shimano
North America, but that doesn'talways mean that they own them.
Got it?
So, um, so the uh, okay, so,and then the last thing I say

(01:07:41):
about helmets is the sitting inyour car.

So that breakdown in the foam when
it gets brittle.
You definitely want to replacethat.
So sitting in your car, soyou're saying just the heat of
the vehicle, so like in thegarages in Arizona that's 140
degrees in my garage.

Yeah , garage, I think, is a little
safer because you don't havequite that oven effect.
It still gets hot in there, butlike if it sits in your car and
it gets up to 150 it can reallyreally get do some damage to
styrofoam yeah, now I'm guiltyof that, but I change my helmet
probably every year, if not moreoften, because I'm trying

(01:08:11):
different product and becauseyou're crashing, yeah, and I
don't actually sell my helmets.
Uh, that's one thing that Idon't do.
I don't throw them away, Idon't go to the bike swap and
sell my helmets.
That's one thing that I don't do.
I don't throw them away.
I don't go to the bike swap andsell my helmets.
I tend to get rid of them so,and I don't know if it's, it's
all.
It's mainly because I thinkit's grody to have somebody
else's head in the helmet.

It's just me.
Yeah, I guess that makes a lotof sense.

Dane "The Suspension Guru" Hi (01:08:40):
I see people buy helmets at the
bike swap, used all all the time, and I'm just like ew, so, but
that's just me.
So, um, but yeah, the, the heatcan hurt them.
The heat can actually hurt yourcarbon bike.
Uh, uh, when I was in the golfindustry, um, we would have
customers come in and the golfhead on their graphite shaft,
which is carbon fiber.
Uh, graphite shafts would spinbecause they had them in their
trunk all day at work.
Heat up that resin, yeah, andthen they would go to hit the

(01:09:00):
ball and it would spin it.
Uh, it would turn to, andthat's how we disassembled the
clubs, by the way was to heatthem up Interesting, so yeah, so
you don't.
Heat's not good for anything,especially e-bike batteries.
You know any batteries?

stuff like that.
I thought cold was worse forbatteries and heat.
Let's not get into that.
That's not part of our questionthat I don't know.

But I know that here, regionally,
because of where we're at, we'rebiased and we watch out more
for heat.
I don't think we ever get to apoint where cold is hurting
anything.
Yeah.
Now, if you're in Alaska,that's totally different,
different situation.

So, all right, so you consistent,
like, I have a bunch of bikesand I love my bikes and I take
care of my bikes.
I like my bikes to look pretty,oh God.
And so I clean my bikes, okay,and you constantly give me shit
about cleaning my bikes.
You're like and we talked aboutthat in a previous podcast with
Justin and you guys explainedthe reason why but, um, and so I

(01:09:54):
was like, okay, I still want mybike to look pretty, but Dane
tells me I shouldn't be cleaningit this much, and so I used a
product called by G-Techniquethat was like a ceramic coating
that you could use to coat yourbike.

Okay , and that was pretty cool,
you're talking about the paintjob.

For the most part, yeah, you're not
putting it on your tires, notputting it on the tires, but the
stanchions, the whole frame,not not the stanchions, I'm
sorry, the lowers, ok, thelowers.

So if you guys didn't know that,
as he said, the stanchions madea face like face turned.

very weird and I realized that I had
given them nothing.
That's actually moving.

Yeah .

Right and it's part of the bike, not
the chain, not not the, you knowbut the visible parts.
Yeah, yeah, and that workedpretty well.
Okay, and then you introducedme a couple of weeks ago I don't
even know if you remember thisto this product that you use.
It's like not necessarily madefor bikes, but it's called sc1
high gloss coating yeah maxima,so so tell me about that so what

(01:11:00):
is that and what?

so I don't know.
There's all kinds of stuff forcars now ceramic, like you said
ceramic and there's all thesedifferent treatments and I don't
know enough about those.

Josh "Magellan" Anderso (01:11:08):
They're kind of now starting to
permeate into bikes but you likethis stuff enough that you
carry it in the shop yeah, wecarry that and we carry a
product called bike lust byPedro's.

So Maxima makes the SC1 and then
Pedro's.
They're two different kind ofthings.
The results are really similar.
They tend to give the bike aglossy kind of nice, shiny
finish.

But then it also helps to keep dust
and dirt off it.

The big thing and you know it's
Carlos, our ride wrap guy, whopointed this out on the SC one.
It tends to repel dust and sothe bikes don't get as dirty.
And so, like one of our ridingbuddies, nick, I sold him a bike
for his son, uh, santa Cruz,that we had in the shop.
And he um we you know Carlosprepped the bike for sale.

(01:11:55):
It was one of our used bikesthat we sell.
We sell in the shop, uh, used.
And so Carlos cleaned the bikefor sale.
It was one of our used bikesthat we sell in the shop.
So Carlos cleaned the bike withSC1 and did a deep clean.
He's the anti-Dane when it comesto bikes.
He's pretty anal, he's cleaningthe crap out of his bikes.
So it was super shiny and nice.
And then, nick, we went ridinga few times and Nick kept

(01:12:16):
commenting on how this bikenever gets dirty.
He has to go home and clean hisbike and his other son's bike.
But this Santa Cruz just didnot get dirty, and I think it's
a little exaggeration.
But I think it's also true thatthe dirt wouldn't stick to this
stuff, and so it's a prettycool product.
I've been using it on my bikesand I've noticed the same thing.

(01:12:36):
And then we tend to haveconsignment bikes in the store
that we're selling, so we tendto use it on that.
And so now I will cautioneverybody right now.
This is an aerosol, so you wantto keep it away from your brake
pads and you want to be carefulabout your brake pads, I tend
to spray it on a rag away fromthe bike and then wipe it on Be

(01:12:58):
really aware.

I'm super glad we had this
conversation, because I haven'tused it yet.
I did buy a bottle from you.

You want to keep it away from your
rotors.
Um you, I tend to take thewheels off and do it.
I don't pull the pads out, butI'm really really careful around
the brake pads.
Um cause any any of thesesubstances.
Uh, same for bike lust.
I don't tend to spray it on thebike.
I tend to spray it on a rag andthen put it on the bike.
That's because, to me, buyingnew brake pads is super annoying

(01:13:23):
.

Yeah, replacing them.

Dane "The Suspension Guru (01:13:30):
Super annoying.
Yeah, it sucks, and so I'm.
I'm careful with that.
I can.
I can clean my bike at homewith a rag and and this stuff
and some water and not have toreplace my brake pads.
If I do it carefully, but,guaranteed, if you spray that
bike down with this stuff,you're going to be putting new
brake pads on your bike.

Right on.
Well, thank you, Dane, for allthe awesome Bike Shop secret
knowledge that you shared withus today.
It appears that our listenersreally like these kind of
episodes, and I don't think I'llever run out of stupid home
mechanic questions.
None of these are stupid.

Dane "The Suspension Gu (01:14:00):
They're actually really good ones and
I'm I'm glad you come up withthem because it's all in my head
and I want to.
I tell people this daily.
You know stuff like this, butyou're right, man, I forget,
like the dropper post episodewhere we told people don't lift
up your dropper post when it'sdown and stuff.
The amount of people that cameup to us afterwards and we're
like Jesus Christ.

I didn't know that Exactly.

And you know what's crazy is the
emails I got from industrypeople going thank God you said
that because they're they'retired of that issue, you know,
and so it was kind of cool, youknow.
So if anybody else has anytricks or tips and they want to
reach out through Instagram orFacebook is, I think, our main
ways.

Yeah, you can email us.
At mountain cog there's a.
You can look in the show notesright now.
You'll see a send us a text.
You can do that.
If you do do the send us a textwe learned, please put your
contact information in there,cause it doesn't tell us who you
are.
So we've had some people writeus and we don't know who they
are and we can't get back tothem.
So if we didn't answer yourquestion question, uh, sorry,
send us an email or hit us onInstagram or Facebook or
whatever.
It's just mountain cock podcast.

Yeah , uh, there's, uh, there's a lot
of them that I learn every day,like every day.
So, uh, it's really awesome.

Well, we got some exciting.
I'm trying to think of whatwould be published.
We got some exciting stuffcoming.
We actually have.
We have some episodes that areunder embargo, at least one
that's under embargo right nowwhich is pretty cool.
First time for us, someexciting new product.
I'm really excited about thenew stuff, yeah, um.
So yeah, excited to tell youguys about that when we can and
uh, yeah, appreciate y'all.
You got any final thoughts man?

Dane "The Suspension Gur (01:15:27):
That's it, man.
Go ride your bike.

Punk rock Go ride your bike.
Thank you.

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106 - Bike Shop Secrets: Can I ride it? Chain Stretch. Cassette Wear. Quick Links. Dropped Helmet, and Carbon Frame & Component Damage.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}106 - Bike Shop Secrets: Can I ride it? Chain Stretch. Cassette Wear. Quick Links. Dropped Helmet, and Carbon Frame & Component Damage.