113 - 500 Miles of Sedona Singletrack: An Advocacy Blueprint That Actually Works (Verde Valley Cyclists Coalition - VVCC) - Mountain Cog

Episode Transcript
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Host (00:16):
Dane
Okay.
And she always likes to getthat like pasta with uh you know
like made out of I don't know,beans or whatever.
Josh
and be careful about what sheeat what she eats.
Dane
And uh, you know, she uh youknow I said uh what is this fake

(00:38):
impasta?
Or fake pasta.
Josh
Dane
I didn't I never say that theseare good.
I never never wanted to jokethat we said that these are good
jokes.
Josh
Feels like it's been foreversince we recorded an episode,

(00:58):
brother.
I've been gone on thecross-country trip.
Dane
too much because I'm gonna do awhole episode of the code.
Josh
trip up to Whitler and back.
Dane
Scouting.
Scouting trip, that's perfect.
Josh
uh both Tracy Randall and LarsRomick.
Tracy's the president and Lars,I believe it's a board member.

(01:20):
You can correct me if I'm wrongthere, Lars, of the Valley
Verdi Cyclist Coalition.
Welcome, Tracy.
Welcome, Lars.
How are you guys today?

Guest (01:30):
Tracy Randall, VVCC
Coalition.

Host (01:33):
Josh
Valley Verde.
Oh man, that's a that's on theother side of the context.
Dane
Sorry, did I do the introagain?
I think we have a reputation ofbeing pretty much online with
this.
Josh
I got I think I got your namesright.
Everything was perfect at themoment.
It's a long day.

(01:54):
It's a long day.
Dane
there is uh you guys are partof you know, Sedona is in your
scope.
So so when people are ridingtrails in Sedona, you guys are
the ones that are helping withthat and and doing that.
Okay.
Yeah, because that threw me fora loop.
Uh is there trails in the VerdeValley?
Like uh Cottonwood, yeah,Cottonwood and Verde, Mingus

(02:19):
Mountain, Mingus and Bird, yeah.

Guest (02:21):
Tracy Randall

Host (02:22):
Dane
So is that all on Trail Force?
Montezuma Rimrock, like, yep.

Guest (02:27):
Tracy Randall, VVCC
think.

Host (02:29):
Dane
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
I gotta check that out.
My mom is up near there and uhuh Prescott's right.
It's a great central locationfor a ton of riding.

Guest (02:39):
Lars Romig, VVCC Boar
Flagstaff, the whole NorthernArizona, you've kind of got
almost everything.
They keep talking about liftaccess at Snowball and it's uh
someday in the future, maybe.

Host (02:50):
Josh
Yeah, I saw that they actuallyhave a plan.
I think for next year, is whatI heard.
I don't know of how true thatis, but we'll see.

Guest (02:57):
Lars Romig, VVCC Bo
times, but yeah, I'm with you,Lars.
I've heard that before.

Host (03:02):
Josh
Yeah.
I mean, Sunrise is riding realnice right now.
If you haven't been up therelately, wow.
Yeah.
That moved away last year.
Dane
Yeah, they're doing uh doing alot of moving and shaking, uh,
Globe's doing a little bit.
I mean, everywhere is uh Ithink mountain biking in general
is getting to be much moremainstream than uh it has been
in the past, and there's moregroups like this that are making

(03:23):
that happen.
Josh
over it a little bit, but maybewe can dive a little deeper.
You know, you you talked aboutsome of the different trail
systems or areas in in in theVerde Valley.
Um kind of give us a little bitmore details here.
Like, what's the flavor of thetrails that you have?
Like, what's the vibe to ridein in the Verde Valley?

Guest (03:45):
Lars Romig, VVCC Boa
trails on Megus Mountain thatwere built in the Great
Depression.

Host (03:51):
Josh

Guest (03:51):
legacy trails from the Jeromearea, and then you have
illegally built stuff that wassocial and adopted in the dead
horse system, fully planned outstuff and the blowout system
that was from scratch with likemyself and Jason Williams for
the President National Forest.
And then Sedona, of course, hasjust got a long history of all

(04:12):
kinds of just people runningaround there, socially illegally
built, forest service built,um, and very rustic and rocky in
nature.
So you've got everything frombig descents on Mingus Mountain
all the way to really bigcross-country rides, smooth to
really rough, and then just thekind of iconic Sedona pieces.

Host (04:31):
Josh
bike, and we are a mountain bikepodcast, I know that your
organization uh advocates forboth road cyclists and mountain
bikers.
Or as we like to say, peoplethat have fun when they ride and
people that don't.
Dane
It is a joke.
Um, road biking is not a crime.
Josh

(04:54):
rider, there's something in theVerde Valley for you to uh take
advantage of.
For sure.
Yeah, so um okay, so four fourdifferent levels of riders.
I'm gonna I'm gonna ask youwhere what trail should they
start with?
So we'll start with beginnerriders.
So beginner riders comesbeginner rider comes to the
Verde Valley, where should theystart?

Guest (05:14):
Lars Romig, VVC
Yep.
Tracy Randall, V
Blowouts in Clarkvale.
It's one of the bigger, it'sone of the newer ones.
You know, there's not a ton ofriding in Sedona that's
beginner.

Host (05:25):
Josh

Guest (05:25):
Tracy Randall, VVCC P
where I'd say Lars.
Lars Romig, VVCC Board
on depends on the time of theyear.
Um yeah, and Sedona it hassome, but it's very limited just
in nature of like whether it'slike stirrup lasso and all the
stuff out at Western Gateway orI mean Bell Rock Pathway.

(05:49):
Tracy Randall, VVC
Dry Creek has some Long Canyonand and there's a little bit out
at Dry Creek where I takepeople if they're still got
moments of terror here and therethough.
Lars Romig, VVCC B

Host (06:04):
Josh
the way is is what I am.
Uh huh.
So if I'm an intermediaterider, where should I start?

Guest (06:13):
creek, or like the VOC side, oreven Adobe Jack Trails, we can
kind of get into those zonespretty easily to kind of test
things out.

Host (06:24):
Dane
tell them where blowout is,where is it near, or what would
they reference?

Guest (06:30):
Lars Romig, VVCC Bo
code, but it's very close to theYavai College campus at the
base of Mingus Mountain.

Host (06:37):
Dane
side?

Guest (06:40):
So on the east face of themountain range.
Okay, all right.
Tracy Randall, VVCC
like what, last five years,Lars?
Lars Romig, VVCC B
it was probably five or sixyears ago, and then it's been
slowly ticking away.

Host (06:57):
Dane
pine trees, or is it closer tolike Camp Verde, like low scrub,
like high desert, or more likeSedona?

Guest (07:08):
Lars Romig, VVCC Bo
Dead Horse?

Host (07:10):
Dane
trails that I didn't even knowexisted.
This is perfect, yeah.
Yeah, and so that's kind of whyI'm drilling you.

Guest (07:17):
ridden the BCT?

Host (07:20):
Dane
Uh from Prescott down to Idon't know, uh what is it,
Bumble Bumblebee?
Bumblebee, yeah.
Or down to the pie shop.
Yeah, yeah, down to the pieshop.
So yeah.

Guest (07:32):
Tracy Randall, VVCC
think, Lars?
Like the lower stuff, yeah.
Very tame.
And then, you know, as you getup higher and all the stuff at
Copper Chief, it's still tame,but the the for the flora and
everything's different becauseit's just such a higher
elevation.
Lars Romig, VVCC B

(07:52):
base of the system is at thirty,thirty-three, thirty-four
hundred feet.

Host (07:56):
Josh

Guest (07:57):
rolling ridges, open desert typestuff.
Not a lot of like mainly justprickly pear cactus.

Host (08:05):
Josh

Guest (08:05):
And then it starts gettinghigher up.
You get a little bit ofjuniper, and then as you get way
up on copper sheaf, coppersheaf is starting to get up
towards the pines a little bitup top.

Host (08:16):
Dane
I I've never been there, and Iwant to go explore that area.
Yeah.
And one of one of the issues wehave with Sedona is there's not
much camping.
And so we always, everybodysays to go out towards that
area.
Right.

Guest (08:28):
on Mingus.
VTAP, the plan for Mingus.
There is a bunch of planned XCtrails going in up on top of the
mountain that would be kind oflike borderline us to PIMBA.
Um, they were planned by JasonWilliams from Prescott National
Forest, and there's like someinput from myself and also from
some of the Pimba folks.
Um, but that system is still,there's still a lot of time left

(08:51):
to even build that stuff out.
But that would have really goodcamping up high over 7,000
feet.
about Sedona.

Host (09:00):
Josh
So we're still.

Guest (09:03):
Tracy Randall, VVCC
happy.
We're not just talking aboutSedona.

Host (09:08):
Josh
My wife told me.

Guest (09:12):
Lars Romig, VVCC
little bit until we get someother stuff done with the VTAP
plan with President NationalForest.

Host (09:19):
Josh

Guest (09:19):
preliminary permission, andthere's not an official easement
place yet, but from theSilomangini family to connect
the 106 trail to the top ofHigher Learning and have a
blowout, which will enable us tohave a 4,200-foot descent all
on single track, which would tieinto Cottonwood's pathway
system that was going to go downDel Money Wash.

(09:41):
And they've almost got all thehurdles connected to have it go
down Del Money Wash, which youwould then literally finish at
Belfry Brewery in Old TownCottonwood.

Host (09:49):
Dane
Is this any of theseshuttleable?
Yeah.

Guest (09:55):
It's a page road at the verytop.

Host (09:57):
Dane
Oh, that's now you're talkingmy language.
Yeah.
Yep.
All right.
Josh
little when we got into theintermediate trails, everybody
got excited.
Yeah.
Where would where should ourrider, our advanced rider, start
in the Verde Valley Sidon area?

Guest (10:13):
Lars Romig, VVCC B

Host (10:15):
Dane

Guest (10:17):
Lars Romig, VVCC B

Host (10:17):
Dane
So it was it was short uh andfast, but uh but it was fun.
You could do it a couple timesbecause the pave rode up.
Josh
miles of trail are in youruniverse?

Guest (10:32):
Lars Romig, VVCC Bo
I'm gonna give you aguesstimate right now.
Sedona is roughly 400 betweenofficial and unofficial.
And then you've got about 25 inblowout and 25 in dead horse.
And then unofficial.
Yeah, so you can probably callthat 35 with all the other

(10:53):
blowout stuff.
you want to count that.
Lars Romig, VVCC Bo
Yeah, probably call I can callit roughly call it 500 miles.

Host (11:04):
Josh
Yeah.
And this is natural surface,mostly single track trail.
Dane
Wow.
Wow.
So what's the the there's acampground that I've heard about
as is Dead Horse, I think.
And there's trails right out ofthere.
Because I've because I've hadmultiple friends say you gotta
go camp there because the trailsstart right there.
You can you don't even have toget in your car to go the trail,

(11:24):
you just jump right on thetrail.
So that's part of your own.
Yeah, yeah.
So I keep hearing about this.
This has got to be one of ourdestinations.
What's the best time of year tohit these trails?
Like uh because right nowprobably is not a good time.
It's a hundred and ten, hundredand fifteen out there.

Guest (11:41):
summer, I would say.

Host (11:46):
Dane
Yeah.
Uh here we ride during thesummer, but we do it at night or
at four in the morning.
So but uh Yeah, that's that'sour only option.
Or we go to Sunrise or MountLemon.
Josh
got a ton of questions, butinstead of just us asking
questions, tell us tell us yourvision, your mission, what you
guys are about.
What are you excited about?

Guest (12:07):
Tracy Randall, VVC
Um a big focus was growing themembership over the last couple
years, which we've been prettysuccessful doing.
Um and you know, we're veryactive socially, so we have lots
of events.

(12:28):
And you know, once a monthwe're getting together with some
type of event with ourmembership.
And, you know, the group isvery active in a few areas.
One is really supporting um thebuilding and maintenance of
trail work and advocating formore trails.
Um, I'd say the group hasgotten more and more

(12:48):
advocacy-oriented, just partlywhat's going on in the world.
Um and then also we have quitea big trail system build that's
coming up.
So you guys heard about thatbecause Josh won the fork.
So the club's gotten veryactive and in helping to raise
money for that trail build.

(13:10):
Um, there's also a lot of trailbuilding that's going on around
the Verde Valley that we'reinvolved in, a trail called
Circle Trail that's gonnaconnect this copper chief all
the way through Camp Verdi andthen back to Sedona.
I think the mount is what, ahundred miles?
Lars, that's gonna encompass.

(13:31):
Tracy Randall, VVC
Lars Romig, VVCC Bo
Tracy Randall, VVCC
Lars has been here from thebeginning, so yeah.
was previously the president forfour almost five years.
And uh the club originallystarted with a couple other
guys, like Randy Victoryspecifically.
Um, Ian Wix and DanielPlotichowski in 03.

(13:55):
And uh I got involved a coupleyears after that as a younger
kid, like kind of just a youngpunk wanting to make cool
trails.
And uh I've just watched itkind of go fluctuate back and
forth from mountain focused alittle bit.
It's always been road,mountain, everything bike, but
it kind of has walked back andforth with different missions

(14:16):
for a long time.
Has a lot of big wins from alot of road infrastructure with
bike lanes and better access insome of the parts of town to
focusing on trail, Sedona stuff.
The Sidrama years.
I mean, there was a lot ofstuff.
I'm sure if you've looked up ifyou've looked up historical
stuff, there's all the likeillegal trail building years
where there was a lot of lighton that for a while.

(14:38):
Um we spent a lot of timetrying to get people kind of
into the fold and work with thechange in like regime we had in
the Forest Service way backwhere we kind of had a a big
olive branch extended by themanagement there.
And so it's yeah, I mean it'sit's a thick history for sure.

(15:00):
one thing I just wanted to addthere, because I've just because
of so much stuff that's beengoing on recently, um and you
know, the the threat of losingsome of the public lands.
Um it just struck me how Sedonais such a strong model that's a
good example for othercommunities, and that you know,

(15:20):
all the Forest Service, as weknow, struggles with resources.
And so this community reallysupports both financially as
well as with lots of boots onthe ground, volunteers coming
out.
Um, all those trails arebecause the community has really
rallied with the ForestService.
You know, I think Larsmentioned it wasn't always like

(15:42):
that.
It was a little bit morecontentious, but you know, since
I've been involved, just thepartnership with the Forest
Service is a good model forcommunities.

Host (15:53):
Dane
I think uh a lot of theadvocacy groups we talk to, it's
usually a conversation abouttheir struggle with the Forest
Service or whatever land managerthey're dealing with.
And like, you know, in in SanDiego they have multiple.
One trail may go through likethree or four different land
managers areas, and then uh herewe've got you know the changing
of the guard at uh some of ourForest Service where almost

(16:16):
wipes out all the work they didbecause they've now got to build
that new relationship with thatnew uh land manager.

Guest (16:21):
of that for a while withdifferent different guards and
different staff members andstuff, and like in like 2010 or
so, we had a change in staff,our rec staff officer, and she
really kind of got the ballrolling.
And since then it's snowballedinto more and more good

(16:41):
momentum.
And then I mean, like Tracyjumped into really good momentum
and has just kind of ramped itup to even better, I would say.
Like, pretty amazing to watchher kind of work.

Host (16:52):
Josh
Like what worked?
Like, how were you?
I I I understand you have tohave a willing partner on the
other side of the equation towork with you, but like what
were the actions that you took?
What were the perspectives orpositions that you took to help
enable the the positive placewe're at today that's that's
resulted in so much, you know?

Guest (17:09):
Like obviously we got luckywith a good person on that side
that helped initiate some ofthat, but I think my big lesson
over the years is justestablishing good relationships
and building trust with allthese people at the land
management, whether it's theforest service or the cities,
and that just perpetuates moreof it.
And I think our culturereflects that now.

(17:31):
Tracy Randall, VV
It's just I think there's a lotof willingness also just to
jump in and do the work.
I mean Lars is very active inin doing a lot of stuff to help
the Forest Service.
I am, and there's othercountless people in our club
that are.
Um and you know, there's a goodfunding environment.

(17:52):
Um both Lars and I are also inthe on the Sedona Red Rock Trail
Fund, which is the nonprofitthat does most of the
fundraising in the area.
Um, and so you've got, youknow, like Lars said, good
relationships, people who arewilling to work, and then people
who are willing to come forwardand help raise money, because

(18:15):
you know, if anything shows ustoday in the last few weeks, the
Forest Service is gonnacontinue to struggle with money.
So the community's got to stepup and not complain, but fill in
the gap because they just don'thave the support.

Host (18:31):
Dane
or partners that kind of helpwith that, or is it all
individuals that arecontributing?

Guest (18:39):
Tracy Randall, VVC
comes about a third of itsgrants.
So I'm on that committee.
So writing grants, um a thirdof it comes from businesses in
the community, Lars is on thatcommunity, on that um committee,
and then a third of it's gonnacome from individuals.
So, like what we did um thatyou guys participated in for the

(19:03):
Verde Valet Cyclus, that wouldhave been considered
individuals.
Okay.
Um, us as the BBCC went out andraised money and and um donated
it to the trail fund who thengives it to the Forest Service.

Host (19:18):
Josh
fund for me?
Because that's something wedon't have down here, and is
we're we're trying to um I workwith SDMB and we're trying to
kind of model ourselves afterwhat you guys have done and and
hopefully get going on planningand building and and and
building out what we have heredown Tucson, which it's amazing
what we have.

(19:38):
We want to we want to do more.
Yeah.
Um, but the trail fund thingwas super interesting to me
because we don't have that here.
So like how did that comeabout?
What is that?
How does it work?
Like, how how can we duplicatewhat you guys are doing up
there?

Guest (19:53):
with Jennifer Burns from theForest Service.
She kind of saw the writing onthe wall with the lack of
funding coming from way backwhen and establish this
organization that's a nonprofitthat does all these different
pieces, whether it's grantwriting, fundraising through
individuals or throughbusinesses through the community

(20:14):
outreach.
Um and it's not it's not in onespecific user, it just helps
the Forest Service withnon-motorized trails.
So it's focused solely on anon-motorized system and
figuring out how to get theforest service better capacity
to accomplish those goals tomake more non-motorized trails,
new construction, maintenance,etc.

Host (20:34):
Josh
service, because well that'sthat's what what your land is
basically around your area.

Guest (20:40):
Lars Romig, VVCC B
Luckily in the in and aroundSedona is just Forest Service.
There's like a tiny littlescosh of of state trust land,
but we don't have anyinfrastructure on it, we don't
even mess with it.
Okay, so all.
Tracy Randall, VVCC
volunteers in the in the uh youknow, there's hikers on it.
Lars and I would be mountainbikers.
I think there's four mountainbikers on the in the on the

(21:02):
board.
There's four equestrians andthe rest of the group's hikers.
And you know, we are on thesedifferent committees, and you
just work to try to raise moneythat's gonna be used for
maintenance and build ofconstruction of new projects.

Host (21:20):
Dane
collectively working at the sameuh to raise money for for a
fund.
For a fund.

Guest (21:28):
Lars Romig, VVCC B
fundraising.
There's no advocacy.

Host (21:31):
Josh

Guest (21:32):
say, like, we want this trailfor the hikers or we want this
for the mountain bikers.
It's just let's get money andmake the capacity go up for the
Forest Service so that they canaccomplish their goals with
addressing non-motorized trails.
And then the forest service.
my money raising hat on.

(21:53):
Now I have my advocacy hat on.

Host (21:56):
Josh
topics can get conflated a bit.
And so it's cool to have anorganization that's only focused
on advocacy and an organizationthat's only focused on
fundraising.
That's interesting.
Dane
that takes a barrier away fromthe forest saying no?
It's like they can't go to,hey, there's no money for it.
It's they've got to come upwith something else if they're

(22:18):
gonna say no.
And so is do you think that'sone of the success points that
you have?

Guest (22:23):
Yeah, I mean, like there's notthere's not a huge problem with
money.
It's like we have our pipelineof work is hugely full with
Turkey Creek and numerous otherlittle pieces of maintenance
stuff every year.
So there's no shortage of work.
The only reason we get no nowis capacity of the staff.

Host (22:42):
Dane
Yeah, the actual forester ofstaff.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And they have a certain levelof supervision they have to be
out when you're doing trail workand stuff.

Guest (22:50):
Lars Romig, VVCC
Like I a few of us have likenot a lot of leashes on us
anymore.

Host (22:56):
Josh

Guest (22:56):
volunteer days where there'speople overseeing the work and
they've got a good span ofcontrol of people guiding the
people doing the work.

Host (23:06):
Dane
Josh
obviously the relationships arekey.
Understanding the constraintsthat your the part your partners
on the Forest Service have andfiguring out ways to help them
get over those obstacles, right?
And this trail fund is one ofthe ways that you do that.
Boots on the ground helping toactually, you know, sweat equity

(23:26):
into the trail.
Dane
Josh

Guest (23:29):
at our volunteer days.
I mean, I'd say we have a veryactive community of people that
come out and care about thetrails and help maintain and
build them.

Host (23:41):
Josh
like?
Like like how like how manyhours is it?
How many people do you guystypically get?
What does that look like foryou guys?

Guest (23:49):
Lars Romig, V
like an 8, 8:30 start, and we gountil 12, 1230, um, have pizza
afterwards or some type of foodafter that.
And we might have anywhere from25 to 50 people show up.

Host (24:02):
Josh

Guest (24:03):
everybody up into differentgroups, and like some people
that are real ambitious and wantto do heavy rock work, we'll
split them off into groups, andthen some people do like
drainage and tread work with thesoils, and then some of the
groups will break off and dolike brushing and limbing and
maybe some signage work.
Tracy Randall, VVCC

(24:23):
cool tool to the group, whichhas been a poop a huge
improvement in our maintenancedays.
It's called Caltopa.
You guys may have heard of it,but we have several people on
our bike club that use it, andthen the Forest Service uses it.
And when we see areas out onthe trail that need maintenance,
we mark it, take a picture,write what needs to be done, and

(24:46):
then we all sit in a room withthe Forest Service and kind of
look at what we've been markedand work out okay, what what are
we going to maintain?
What are we going to fix thisyear?
And it's kind of a a lobbyingbetween everyone who's marked
stuff and the Forest Servicebecause they have stuff they'd
like to get fixed.
But super, it's like, you know,collaborating with your

(25:07):
coworkers.

Host (25:08):
Dane
the board members?
Anybody?

Guest (25:12):
Tracy Randall, VVCC
advocacy group.
And so, you know, basically, ifyou want to be in the group,
you can be.

Host (25:19):
Dane

Guest (25:20):
Tracy Randall, VVCC
get a group, you know, you wanta cross-section of advanced
riders, maybe some newer riders,so you get different
perspectives.

Host (25:30):
Dane
wherever Lars is at is where Iwant to be.
Yeah.
Josh
Damn you, brother.
Thanks, man.

Guest (25:41):
Tracy Randall, VVCC
you're in Colorado somewhere.

Host (25:44):
Josh
Nice.

Guest (25:47):
Tracy Randall, VVCC

Host (25:48):
Josh
So, okay, tell me a little bitmore, Cal Topo.
One of the questions I had wasI I read about this this um Red
Rock mountain bike patrol ops.
Is that something you guysstill do?
The the mountain bike patrol?

Guest (26:01):
Lars Romig, VVCC Bo
So Marty Glinski, our otherprevious president, started the
mountain bike patrol patrol.
And uh he has Tracy has like 50something members right now.
Yeah, yep.
helping people, right?
I mean, we get so many peoplethat don't know where they're
going.

Host (26:19):
Josh
Okay.

Guest (26:20):
trails.
If people have issues, like,hey, this is you know, giving
them uh ideas of where theymight want to ride, what's a
good way to go.
Um, you know, they'll help themif there's some mechanical
issues or whatever.
So that's kind of that group'smission.

Host (26:40):
Josh
everyone all of your membershave on their phone and they're
riding, they're like, hey, thatthing's screwed up.
They take a picture, they theygeotag it, and then it goes back
into the database, and you guyshave record of all that.
Dane

Guest (26:53):
Tracy Randall, VVCC Pr
members.
I mean, you you do have to havesome idea, like hey, this
actually does need to be fixed.
Lars Romig, VVCC B
vetting and training that goesin there showing people how to
use it.
Tracy Randall, VVCC
this rock feature, please justmove, you know.
Yeah, or there's some weedsover here.

Host (27:14):
Josh
enough to get over that.
Dane
there anything mechanisms thatyou've used with your members to
get them out to these traildays?
Do you have like um is it justeverybody there is really
enthusiastic, or are therecertain things that you guys
have done to kind of get theirstoke up more often, like maybe

(27:34):
raffles or like to get pizza andthings like that?
What what causes them to wantto get out and do so much?
Uh that's one of the thingsthat I think.
Well, yeah, so so the reason Ibring this up is I I think one
of the things that we've heardfrom a lot of our advocates
around here is that the lack ofvolunteers has been difficult.
Getting the stoke up, gettingpeople out there has been

(27:55):
difficult.
So is there something that youguys feel like is working?
Or is do you think it's thevortexes?
It could be the vortexes.
It could be the vortexes.

Guest (28:05):
really good with social media onit.

Host (28:08):
Josh

Guest (28:09):
are well organized.
It's a it's a like a goodamount of time, it's four hours
generally.
Um, and I think it the tr thework does it itself.
Like once you go out and it's agood time to come out with
everyone.
I think people get like vestedin the trail by doing the work,
and then they just want to keepdoing it.

Host (28:30):
Dane

Guest (28:32):
So someone's in charge, Larsdoes them, I do them.
We have some other members thatlike, and so we'll film the
work we get done.
So we're pretty we try to makeit look pretty fun.
So it's like, oh, yeah, look atwhat I missed.
Well, I tell you for thelisteners, and then we advertise

(28:53):
what's coming next.

Host (28:54):
Josh
trail work, I gotta tell you, doit.
Do do some trail, get with yourlocal advocacy group, get go do
some trail work.
And here's the reason why,because every single time you
ride by that section, you'regonna look at that and you're
gonna be like, I I did that.
Dane
I do it all the time.
And I'm just like, I I therewas a long break where I didn't
do anything because I was sobusy.
Lately I've been making aneffort not only for me, but to

(29:17):
get my kids out and get theminto doing it so that it's
starts early.
And I keep showing them andwe'll go ride that trail, and my
kids will be like, I worked onthis trail, and they you can see
it, they love it.

Guest (29:28):
too that's it ties directlyinto what you're talking about,
is we've gotten to where a achunk of our work is like making
the trail more fun.

Host (29:38):
Josh

Guest (29:38):
figure out that we want to dothat kind of adds a little bit
of spice or like adds a littlefun feature to it.
And that stuff really connectswith people, I think.
They come out and they get tolike be a part of building
something cool on the trail, andthen they go out and they ride
it, and it's really fun, andthen it kind of like that
spreads organically through thecommunity, and then people want
to be a part of it.

Host (29:59):
Dane
I gotta say somethingcontroversial that's maybe
controversial.
Here we go.
So when you say that, Lars, areyou talking about you maybe put
in a feature like a maybe arock roll or a little drop or
something like that that that ummay spice up the trail for some
riders?
Is that kind of what you'reyou're talking about?

Guest (30:19):
Lars Romig, VVCC B

Host (30:21):
Dane
And so I just want that really.
Can you say that one more time?
Well, yeah, I mean I put in bigdrops on the trails.
Josh
accustomed to that and and youguys have developed that
relationship and that rapportand they understand that.
And we have we have to workthat out with that's one of our
barriers with all land managers.

Guest (30:40):
Lars Romig, VVCC B
you just to give the successstory on that piece is like you
really have to be able toeloquently sell the reason why
you address the user experiencefor all spectrums of the user.
Yeah.
From the beginner to theadvanced and all everything in
between.
And how do you make that systemdesign in a manner that has all
those features kind of spreadthroughout it in a good manner?

(31:02):
And that's you just have to beable to sell that to that land
manager.
And then luckily for us, likewe've had our guys, especially
now with Kevin Cool, is likereally gets that.

Host (31:12):
Dane
That's your land managercontact that you have.

Guest (31:17):
Lars Romig, VVCC
trails guy.

Host (31:19):
Dane
He rides.
Nice.
See, that's gotta be a big, abig help too, because it
connects.
Yeah, it totally does.
Yep.

Guest (31:28):
Forrest Seville, which is nowthe trails guy in Flagstaff,
also rode fantastic high-levelrider.
Yeah.
So it's like, you mean we'rekind of like a decade into
having good riders in thecomposition.

Host (31:43):
Dane
transfer down here?

Guest (31:47):
Lars Romig, VVCC

Host (31:51):
Dane
Yeah.

Guest (31:54):
well.
Yeah, yeah.

Host (31:57):
Josh
trails.
That full sale trail was a wasa blast.
Yeah.
That was a good time.
Um, all right.
So as we're educating ourlisteners here, um could you
help us and just maybe outlineyour experience in the steps
that it takes and the time thatit takes to go from idea to

(32:17):
reality on a new trail?
So so that so that the mountainbikers out there kind of
understand like everything youguys have to do to make that
trail real.

Guest (32:28):
Lars Romig, VVCC B
Oh yeah, you're you you knowthis.
Okay.
So it's you gotta start withpatience initially, and you have
to get the whole idea, andwhatever the idea is, it's for
the forest service, it's aproposed action.
And you have to come up withthe what and the why and all the
ins and outs of how it's gonnaimpact the land, how it's gonna

(32:49):
benefit the user experience.
And then give that proposal tothem and get them to put it into
a proposal for public to put itout to public comment.
And that whole process couldtake anywhere from like I would
say a minimum, a very faststreamlined thing might take two
to three years if you're lucky.
Um, otherwise you're probablylooking more like five or six

(33:11):
years.
But the the reason I saypatience is like keep doing it,
don't stop.
Like keep figuring out thatplan and hopefully you had a
planning process that they havelike pieces to plan further, but
you still have to plan allthose little details of each
little section of trail so thatthe next year you have new stuff

(33:32):
to go, so the pipeline isalways full.
And then once you kind of getover that initial like patience
piece where there's not a lot ofbuilding happening, it's all
advocacy and paperwork and likemeetings and all that, like not
so fun stuff that people don'timagine getting into.
Then once you kind of get pastthat, then you're into the like
the build every year.
Like we there's no shortage ofbuilding for us right now.

(33:54):
It's just like we can build asmuch as we want, really.

Host (33:57):
Dane
hearing on Mount Lemon.
Yeah.
Uh they're they're they havetheir plan, they've been working
on it.
They're obviously have a littlebit of frustration because they
did have a change in landmanagers that they had to
overcome.
And then they they're in thatpatience period, but they have a
plan and they're starting tothat plan is starting to get to
actually implementation, whichis really cool.

(34:18):
So we're seeing that crestfurther down in the valley,
we're just starting the planningprocess.
Yeah, down in the valley, we'restarting it.
Josh
we're gonna be going throughthat.
Okay, so what's next?
So so so what else?
Funding, like biologicalassessments, archaeological
assessments, all that.
Dane

(34:42):
energetic about this?
Josh
Dane

Guest (34:48):
process.

Host (34:50):
Dane

Guest (34:51):
with the Forest Service crew.
Um and the group that's likeour fundraising group and our
bike club.
It's just like people you wantto hang out with.
And it's just, you know, it'sfun to see the results of your
work too, and see the trails getbuilt.
Um, Turkey Creek's gonna be myfirst new trail system in

(35:15):
Sedona.
Nice.
Um, and so it's just it's beencool to, you know, help push it
to the finish line.
And now we're in fundraisingand you know, out there helping
build the trails that have beenlaid out.

Host (35:31):
Josh
research on your organizationand then summar summarize what
you guys were.
And and one of the things thatthe tool picked out was that
your board was comprised ofseveral retirees that brought a
lot of really great professionalexperience that you could then

(35:51):
leverage um to help you in youractivities.
Did they get it right, first ofall?
And what are those skills andwhich ones do you find most
useful?

Guest (36:01):
Tracy Randall, VVC
I mean, I ran an internetbusiness for a number of years.
So I mean I I've used a lot ofmy background with just Tracy
has skills you can say, Tracymarketing and you know, just the
internet, etc., to try to helpthe club and uh raise funds.

(36:24):
Um Kevin Adams is Kevin Adamsand Marty.
Marty ran a business, Kevin wasa sales guy.
Um so we have a lot of peoplethat had you know a lot of
experience that are involved inthe club.

Host (36:42):
Dane
to benefit the club, which isphenomenal.
Josh
have more time to dedicate,whereas is Lars is probably you
know balancing bringing home thebacon with with building trails
and advocating.

Guest (37:00):
most though while he's working.

Host (37:08):
Dane
I I own a bike shop and I don'thave time.
Uh I don't I don't I wish I hadthe time to put in like I
could.
So but uh that's my biggestbarrier.
And that's what we hear mostoften is it's a time barrier.
Josh
listeners to hear.
So so we all know that I thinkby now in in when this gets

(37:30):
published, who knows?
But you know, today on what istoday, June 24th, we got some
good news.
Yeah.
And what I'm talking about isthat Mike Lee from Utah put into
um the president's bigbeautiful bill a proposal in the
Senate to uh sell two millionacres of both Forest Service and
BLM land.
And you guys rallied in a majorway.

(37:53):
Uh so maybe you can tell us andthe good news that we heard
today was that uh Senateparliamentarian came back and
said this is inconsistent withthe rules of the chamber, so at
least at this time and at thismoment in time.
It looks like it's off thetable, but never count your
chickens before they're hatched.
Um we still got to stayvigilant.
But I'd love for the listenersto hear like what you were

(38:14):
telling us before, like theextreme measures you took to
help advocate.

Guest (38:19):
Tracy Randall, VVC
and you looked at those maps,and it was just like, wow, this
is the entire trail system thatyou know both Lars and I put a
lot of time and energy into.
Um You know, we had rallied ourtroops before.
I mean, you rem I don't know ifyou remember not too long ago,

(38:39):
the Forest Service were toldthey couldn't hire any seasonal
employees.
Um we ended up having a fullstaff of employees just by
rallying our community.
So I'd say we went through adrill not so long ago.
So you know, I would give a lotof credit to we have a lot of

(39:00):
community that's very active inthe trail system.
Um, you know, the mountain bikeguides, Sedona Mountain Bike
Academy, um, the bike shops,Thunder Mountain Bikes,
Absolute, Bike and Bean, VerdeValley Bikes.
Um I'm trying to remember whoelse.
Am I missing someone?
You know, we have influencersin the group, Joanna Yates, um,

(39:24):
the bikes.
Shout out to Joanna.

Host (39:26):
Josh
podcast.
Nice.

Guest (39:29):
Tracy Randall, VVCC
Our um Nate Hills is a memberof our club.
He rallied too.
So I mean, we kind of put themessage out there, and also um,
I don't know Ashley, but Ashleygoes hiking.
He saw her stuff.
We had collaborated with herbefore.
So I don't know.

(39:51):
We just kept pushing and I justkept brainstorming other ideas
of like how do we contactpeople.
I hope we made you know, Ithink that was a collective
effort of lots of people.
of the big bonus good featuresof social media is that between

(40:11):
like all of the people in ourclub that were active and
pushing that out there, and thenbetween like you mean Ashley
and me and some other bigger,bigger influencers that pushed
it out, it got pushed out bymega influencers all over, too.
That it just I mean, it waspretty much everybody's feed,
even people like outside of yourown algorithm.

Host (40:34):
Josh
I mean, we we just recently didepisodes with Jess the Maker
and the Cali Rado Kid.
I think both of them put outthings to advocate for us.

Guest (40:42):
Tracy Randall, VVCC

Host (40:43):
Josh
Yeah.
And Tracy, I think you told usyou actually called a whole
mountain.

Guest (40:50):
even know this.
Well, I'm on a road trip rightnow.
Uh my husband and I made a goalto mountain bike in all 50
states.
Nice.
And so we're doing the lastnine, so and they're all the
upper Midwest.
So I'm spending a lot of timein the car.
So I called every um Republicansenator as we were driving.

(41:11):
52 senators.
So I just kept thinking, whatmore can we do?
What more can we do?
I mean, um anyway, I like Itold you, people have told me
it's it won't it's not done tillthis bill is signed, but it
seemed like a victory, a bit ofa victory today.
Lars Romig, VVCC B
to Outdoor Alliance the lasttime, and they had said they was

(41:34):
like the impact to the peopleup at Washington was huge.
So how many, how much, how muchpressure they felt from the the
population.

Host (41:43):
Dane

Guest (41:44):
Lars Romig, VVCC Bo
everyone, whether you just likewent camping a couple times in
the past, but you cherish thosememories because you're out on
public land just having a goodtime in the forest, to people
that recreate every day like us,like everyone loves public
lands.
I think that they're just likeit was such a short-sighted bill
that I think it just they justrattled the hornet's nest big

(42:04):
time.

Host (42:05):
Dane
gonna kind of can translate alittle bit.
So basically, this bill wasgonna allow for the government
to require or require, require,okay, yeah, require to sell off
two million acres in five years.
In five years.

Guest (42:23):
Oh, sorry.
Thank you, thank you.

Host (42:26):
Dane
would include like ForestService and BLM.
And so that would be and and uhwhat Tracy was saying is a lot
of that land was actually aroundthe Sedona area.
They were targeting I thinkthey were targeting.

Guest (42:38):
Lars Romig, VVCC Bo
population centers.

Host (42:41):
Dane

Guest (42:41):
Lars Romig, VVCC Bo
stories, he was putting outthere, that's the whole point
was to help with housing.

Host (42:46):
Dane

Guest (42:46):
population areas with adjacentpublic lands.

Host (42:52):
Dane
Yeah.
And uh they weren't taking intoconsideration things like
Sedono, like where a lot of thatland is not even really a great
place to build an apartment,you know.
And it's some of the mostbeautiful um land that we need
to protect, you know.
It's not the desert near Yuma,you know.

(43:12):
Josh
The Yuma people probably don'twant that either, right?
There's so much good trails inYuma.

Guest (43:17):
Tracy Randall, VVCC
don't think this is gonna goaway.
I mean, because I I did havetime, I got so fully invested in
this.
If you spend much, I mean,Michael, you tried to do this
before.
You guys probably know that.
Um, and I just think he doesn'tbelieve that there should be
this much public land.
He's not a fan of the ForestService.

(43:38):
Um, and so I don't I don'tperceive this is gonna go away.
No, but no, I think what we'regonna do.
It's not gonna happen with thisbill, but it's it's a little
scary.

Host (43:50):
Josh
friends and their friends andtheir families and all their
contacts on notice that we needto stay vigilant.

Guest (43:58):
Tracy Randall, VVC
back again, unfortunately.

Host (44:02):
Dane
the population keeps growing.
And as population of mountainbikers or population of
population of the world and uhwe keep expanding and we keep um
you know needing more space forfor houses.
You know, there's some basictruths to some things where we
do need some stuff, but uh ifyou get rid of our open spaces

(44:25):
and our recreation spaces, ifyou get rid of our places where
we go to detox, where we go torelax, where we go to get away
from from stuff, uh it's it'sjust not healthy, you know.
And so there's a lot betterways to create you know more
space.
There's a in Tucson, there'sthis old hotel near the highway
that has been um burnt down likethree times, you know.

(44:47):
It's in an area where it'sdecrepit, you know.
And I feel like some peopleignore that area and just
destroying that hotel andbuilding new housing there.
There it's so much easier toplow some trees, you know.
You know, so I i I'm glad thatthis is happening, that at least
uh it's getting it's out thereand it's not so sneaky, you

(45:10):
know, being done where we knowit notices.
Josh
I don't know when Mike Leecomes up for re-election, but we
should pay attention to thattoo.
Yeah.
Um I know we're all over theplace, and I apologize for that.
One question I wanted to askyou earlier, um, the
demographics of your riders.
I'm I'm interested in in whatkind of demographics do you have

(45:32):
there from an age perspective,but then also like how many are
locals compared to tourists?

Guest (45:40):
just riding?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Host (45:44):
Josh

Guest (45:46):
I mean you know, the thepopulation of Sedona is under
10,000.
I think the whole Verde Valleyis like in the 40s, 40,000.
Um I think we have threemillion visitors come to Sedona.
Wow.

(46:07):
Um, not all those are folks whoare mountain biking, but the
visiting mountain bikers, Ithink, outnumber the local
mountain bikers.

Host (46:17):
Josh
mountain bikers are allbenefiting from, in a major way,
from the work that you guys do.
So is there an easy mechanismfor those visiting um mountain
bikers to contribute to VVCC inyour efforts?

Guest (46:36):
Tracy Randall, VVC
Um, yeah, you can go to you cango to the website.
We have a donate button,vvcc.us.
Um and then obviously the trailfund as well.
I I'll always push them withour our bike club.
So Sedona Red Rock Trail Fundhas a donate opportunity too.
The money of either will go tothe same place.

(46:57):
I mean, we're both giving moneyto the trails.

Host (46:59):
Josh
And then you guys, um, I wouldimagine in every bike shop in
your area you've got a QR codewhere if I'm a mountain biker
and I'm visiting, I can walk upthere and and hit that QR code
and donate.

Guest (47:15):
Tracy Randall, VVCC
Oh, it's all I mean, they'reover all over the trails.
our trailfront has these boardsup with QR codes on them that
people can scan.
Um it's more just like straighttrail, because again, it's not
focused on hike, bike, orquestion specifically.
It's just like, did you enjoythe trails?
Like, yeah, scan here.

Host (47:36):
Josh
yeah, and I'm looking at Daneand me as well.
Yeah, when we're there, to totake five minutes, and if all
you got is five bucks, donatefive bucks.
Yep.
And if you got five hundredbucks, donate five hundred
bucks.
Dane
I I mean it's it it can go awayif we don't watch it.
So, and that's that's the badreality.
So, and there's so many peoplethat love it, and just because

(47:59):
they don't live there doesn'tmean they can't help.

Guest (48:01):
Tracy Randall, VVC
know, inspiring though, to seehow much the outdoor community
got behind this.
Um it was I mean, I thought itwas cool.
I don't know how much your, youknow, each of your communities
got involved, but it was just Ithought it was pretty inspiring

(48:23):
and it, you know, thank goodnesswe had a good, good win,
short-term win.

Host (48:28):
Dane
destination for so many people,and it's seen as like, you
know, on on par with a lot oflike touristy places to go.
Josh
Dane
Arizona or not just the US.
And uh, you know, that's anadvantage it has, and you guys

(48:49):
have been able to leverage that.
Whereas Tucson, we're we'restruggling a little bit because
we're trying to get the peoplethat are here to get more
involved and do more.
And then we're also trying toto show the world all of the
potential that we have here.
Josh
We have a million we have amillion people here, and our
advocacy group is uh is roughlythe same size as yours.

(49:10):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, if you combine the twotogether, the two major ones
together.
Yeah.
Uh now we are just focused onmountain biking.
Yep.
Uh, so we're not also doing theroad stuff, but um, I would
expect our our we we should bemuch bigger than we are.
Yeah, yeah.

Guest (49:24):

Host (49:26):
Josh
That's that's the key.

Guest (49:29):
Tracy Randall, VVC
just I mean, they people want tomeet each other, they want to
find folks they can go ridingwith.
So, you know, we we'll havesome.
I mean, we have a monthlyevent.
We have three larger events ayear, um, and a big holiday
party.
And um the dues, and then we'lldo some kind of raffle or

(49:53):
something between the dues andthe raffle that ends up paying
for these parties.

Host (49:57):
Josh

Guest (49:58):
Tracy Randall, VVCC
And that's what honestly,that's what grew the membership
to a big, big degree.
Just people socially getting tobe able to hang out together.
So when you say And it helpswith our trail work because
people see each other at theparties, and it's like, oh, do
you go to trail work?
You know, it it helped thetrail work getting people just

(50:18):
socially hanging out together.

Host (50:20):
Josh
No dig, no ride, my friend.

Guest (50:24):
Tracy Randall, VVCC
Lars?
And Lars's bad Lars's bettyshow up too.
Yeah.

Host (50:31):
Dane
you think because everybodyknows each other, it's like they
get to go see their friends attrail work?

Guest (50:38):
Tracy Randall, VVC
Yeah.
And then I do think, like Larssaid, people there the trail
work.
I mean, I can only speak towhat this is the only place I've
done trail work, but I canimagine some areas that are not
quite as interesting.
Like it's kind of cool to getto lay rock and like figure out

(50:59):
how to make a ramp.
And you know, it's just it'sneat.
It's like, oh, cool, look atwhat we just built.

Host (51:07):
Dane

Guest (51:09):
Tracy Randall,
Have a bunch of video going, soit's it's you know, it's a
little bit more than just likelopping and stuff, which yeah,
it's fun.

Host (51:20):
Dane
I like the fact that you guysget to build in a little
excitement, a little bit offeatures, make it more like an
amusement park.
Yeah.
And you're not just trimmingback bushes, you know, which
something's a lot of what we dohere.

Guest (51:33):
Tracy Randall, VVCC
came up with, which is prettyfunny because I I always use
this trail as an example of whywe need maintenance.
Um, we have a trail calledHuckabee that doesn't get a lot
of use.
It's kind of one of theoriginal trails.
And Lars is always like,Huckabee is great.
We we Tracy, we got it, so helobbied for a couple a trail

(51:56):
work day out there.
And he had us, he had us movingthese gigantic boulders in the
oak creek so people could crossacross it.
But it was it was quite a funnyday, just everyone out in the
water moving around these giantrocks, creating kind of an
artificial bridge across OakCreek.

Host (52:16):
Dane
Just that kind of feature iswhat people remember about
trails.
You know, just a regular trailwith not a lot going on is just
falls into, you know, out ofyour memory.
But what you remember are, andif you think about any trail
you've ever been to, you don'tremember the flat smooth
sections that are just nicelybrushed.
What you remember is the rocksthat you had to pause and go

(52:39):
over, or the the tough techclimb, or the drop, or you know,
something like that.
That's what people remember.
That's how they describe thetrail.
Like, oh, where is this?
Oh, it's you know where thedrop is?
It's just past that where therocks start.
Oh, I totally remember that.
You can't do that if thetrail's just nothing, you know.
So you need that character.
That's the character of thetrail.

(53:00):
So I love the fact that I'mjealous of the fact that you
guys get to do that.
Josh
have we don't have thatrelationship yet down here, but
we're working on it.
Tracy Lars, maybe a couple morequestions here, and then we'll
wrap up.
What are you guys most excitedabout?

Guest (53:18):
Lars Romig, VVCC
jazzed about in the V V C C thewhole Trinity Creek system, I'm
super excited about becausethere's a whole bunch of really
cool trail to get built in therefrom like just like we're
talking about the littlefeatures that get put in there,
there's some really cool naturalfeatures that already exist out
there, and then we'll get toadd in our own little flair to

(53:41):
some of those.
And uh a couple of them arealmost like miniature hard
lines, even.

Host (53:46):
Dane
You're throwing the gauntletdown there, brother.
Yeah, that that gets me superexcited.
So how about you, Tracy?

Guest (53:54):
Um I mean Turkey Creek as well,yeah.
It was fun to go out and thiswas again, most most of my trail
work to date has beenmaintenance, which I'm a huge
advocator for maintenance, butum, it was fun to go out and to
build some new trail.
So I'm excited about next year,next season, and and uh the
first trail was awesome, DelSol.

(54:14):
It's more of a cross country,but it was laid out so well that
it's just a blast to ridethrough.

Host (54:22):
Josh
Do you have any final thoughtsfor our listeners?

Guest (54:30):
Lars Romig, VV
like get involved.
And uh you mentioned it asecond ago that no take a ride
mantra, which I push the lead.
But I also push it with thecavity.
It doesn't mean just that youcan dirt, like get involved in
any way that you can, whetheryou have skills and whether it's
like marketing or sales orphysically moving off or any of

(54:52):
that stuff, like start doingwhat you can do to contribute
and put everyone together pushesthe whole forward, right?

Host (55:00):
Josh
Yeah.
How can how can our listenersfind you guys on online?
What what are your what areyour handles?
What are your what what's yourwebsite?

Guest (55:09):
is the the Instagram for thenonprofit.
BBCC.us is the website.
And then my personal list is alot of Sedona content and all
around the area is MountainMongo on Instagram.

Host (55:28):
Dane
Nice.
And then I gotta look you up soyou can show me some of the the
beelines.
The bee lines.
Great, awesome.
Josh
We really appreciate um whatyou've done.
We really appreciate your timethis evening.
Really appreciate all the workthat you guys and your
organizations are doing uh tobuild out in the Very Valley and
keep those trails awesome andand grow them.

(55:49):
I'm super excited to go.
I've written up there a bit,but I've I'm super excited to go
and hold more.
Do we get to go check out likethat?
Yeah, a lot.
We spent like a month up in inSedona.
Dane
Probably take that long orlonger to ride 500 miles.

Guest (56:04):
Tracy Randall
probably would take about amonth to ride off the trail.

Host (56:11):
Josh
Nice.
Man, that's awesome.
Yeah.
Well, thank you guys.
We appreciate your time.
We appreciate what you do.
Thank you so much.

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113 - 500 Miles of Sedona Singletrack: An Advocacy Blueprint That Actually Works (Verde Valley Cyclists Coalition - VVCC)

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}113 - 500 Miles of Sedona Singletrack: An Advocacy Blueprint That Actually Works (Verde Valley Cyclists Coalition - VVCC)