Bourbon and Bipartisanship with Rep. Wiley Nickel: How to Survive the Political Circus

Wiley Nickel drops some serious truth bombs in this episode of Muck You, where he reflects on the chaotic circus that is Washington D.C. He candidly critiques the current administration's approach to governance, asserting that the old playbook just doesn't cut it anymore. With a dash of sarcasm, he emphasizes the need for the Democrats to toughen up and adopt new strategies—like forming a "shadow cabinet" to keep their messaging sharp against the relentless barrage of misinformation. He hilariously points out the absurdity of the political landscape, where the loudest voices often drown out reason, leaving the country in a state of confusion. As he gears up for a potential Senate run in 2026, Wiley not only shares his journey post-Congress but also highlights the urgent need for a unified front to combat the challenges ahead, all while keeping the conversation light and engaging.

Wiley Nickel, the former Congressman who's got the chops to throw some serious shade at the current political circus, joins the crew for a no-holds-barred chat that’s sure to give listeners a bellyful of real talk. He’s not just reminiscing about his days in Congress; he’s dropping truth bombs about the chaos that's sweeping Washington, where it seems like the only strategy is to "throw everything at the wall and see what sticks." The gang dives deep into the absurdity of today’s political landscape, with Nickel highlighting the urgent need for a fresh approach to counteract the misinformation blitzkrieg that has become the norm. They explore how the Democrats can toughen up their game and finally start winning again, all while navigating the treacherous waters of partisan gerrymandering that’s costing them seats. If you’re looking for a podcast that serves up sarcasm with a side of political insight, buckle up, because this episode is a wild ride through the muck of modern-day governance.

Wiley Nickel's insights provide a raw look at the realities of modern governance, underscoring the disconnect between the political elite and the constituents they claim to represent. He paints a vivid picture of the current political landscape, likening it to a battlefield where misinformation is rampant and the truth often takes a backseat. The conversation shifts towards the impact of social media and the role of influential figures like Elon Musk, with Nickel sarcastically noting how these tech moguls wield power akin to demigods in today's society. The trio shares a laugh over the irony of having to navigate through a maze of disinformation while trying to uphold democratic values. They discuss the urgent need for Democrats to toughen their messaging and take a stand against the incessant barrage of Republican narratives that often mislead the public. Nickel stresses the importance of focusing on economic issues to regain lost ground with blue-collar voters, suggesting that a more aggressive stance on policy communication is vital for the party's future success. As they wrap up, the humor lingers, but so does the sobering reminder of the uphill battle that lies ahead for those committed to genuine representation and accountability in politics.

Takeaways:

• The podcast highlights the importance of building relationships in Congress, as it's the only way to get anything done, rather than relying on party lines and divisions.
• Wiley Nickel's insights emphasize the need for Democrats to adopt a tougher stance against Republicans, especially in light of extreme gerrymandering practices that distort electoral outcomes.
• A discussion around the misinformation flood from Washington, stressing the urgency for Democrats to adapt their messaging strategies to counteract the chaotic narratives pushed by the opposition.
• Nickel reflects on the absurdity of current political dynamics, where both sides often prioritize media performativity over genuine governance, leaving essential issues neglected.
• ...

Episode Transcript

(00:08):
Welcome to another episode ofMuck You with my good friend Colonel
MoeMoeDavisandmyself, DavidWheeler. Today our guest is former
Representative Wiley Nickel.He'll be always be our Congressman
because we had a shitty one atwhen we had Madiaon Cawthorn and
we got a mediocre one withChuck Sowelcome.RepresentativeNickel.Appreciateyou.

(00:28):
Yeah, hey, thanks so much. Iam always your, your congressman
then representing the wholestate and, and really appreciate
it.
Yeah. Yeah. You know, west ofCharlotte, we don't really have much
representation at all in anyspaces other than our good senator
in Asheville and, and a coupledecent reps around Buncombe county,

(00:49):
but delighted to have you hereand, and obviously you're not in
Congress anymore. So, so whatare you up to these days and kind
of, what, what do you, whatare your colleagues feeding you about
what's going on in DC?
Well, you know, I, I have, youknow, I just returned home from Congress.
My, my term ended just a fewweeks ago and trying to figure out
what to do next. We're, we'recertainly going around talking to

(01:11):
folks and trying to learn thelessons from this last election.
You know, we did so well inNorth Carolina in, in, in so many
races and, you know, otherthan the presidential race, so a
lot of good stuff and a lot weneed to improve on. We're looking
at a Senate race in 2026, butfor now, just trying to, you know,
get a little more time back athome with the kids. I just took my

(01:32):
daughter to Disney World, apromise made during my time in Congress,
and, you know, trying tofigure out how we move forward because
we need to change the way werespond to so much know, that is
coming out of Washington now.The, the, the old way we dealt with
things just won't workanymore. And, you know, that's why

(01:56):
these, you know, podcasts likeMucku are so important. You know,
an important way to get yourmessage out. And any chance I get
a chance to, anytime I get achance to, to participate, you know,
I'm all in. I'm excited tohave this conversation and grateful
that, that, that, you know,you're continuing in this fight and
putting out good messages.
Well, we, we certainlyappreciate that vote of confidence.

(02:17):
And, you know, back toWashington. What, what are your impressions
of what's really going onthere? Is this all just them dumping
as much as they can on thetable to see what happens, or is
this what the next four yearsis going to be like, in your opinion?
No, I mean, it's, it's, it'sit's worse than, than it, than, than
it seems. You know, they areflooding the zone. They're just throwing
everything they can at thewall. And, you know, it's, it's a

(02:39):
scary time for our democracy.I, I, I think at the end our democracy
will bend, but it won't break.But the courts are especially important
now, and they just continue todo so much. And, you know, traditional
media can only respond. Youknow, you can only really respond
to just a few things. Andthey're doing dozens and dozens of
things every day and justhoping that folks won't pay attention.

(03:02):
So I think part of it is weneed to, we need to change our approach
and how we respond to Trump.That's, that's the first thing. And,
you know, one of the thingsthat I pushed out and, you know,
I've been talking about asmuch as I possibly can is how we
respond to Trump and what wehave to do differently. And so right
after the election, I did anopinion piece in the Washington Post
where I outlined a new way torespond to Trump, borrowing from

(03:25):
the British, the Canadians,the Australians, who've done this
for 100 years by forming, youknow, a loyal opposition shadow cabinet.
That way they have their,where we would put our best and brightest
in the, in the US Congress,you know, in these positions, the
way they do in Great Britain.And it's not, it's not, you know,
we're not appointing people tothe cabinet. We just put our messengers

(03:48):
there to be watchdogs and toput out our positive message. And
that's one of the things thatI'm continuing to push. I hope we
do and would allow us to, youknow, get our best folks there as,
as the, the watchdogs for eachagency and putting out our positive
message.
How do you think that's beengoing? I mean, it seems like, you

(04:11):
know, the messaging on theDemocratic side has been muted at
best. I think an example ofthat is what's going on with, with
fema, you know, and they firedthe, you know, the FEMA workers that
allegedly were, you know,botching the housing migrants up
in New York City, you know,and Elon and Trump both claim that
59, I think it was $59 millionwas divert relief, which is certainly

(04:36):
an important topic here inwestern North Carolina, and used
to put migrants up in luxuryhotels. And it totally ignores the
fact that the disaster fundingand the migrant housing funding are
two separate appropriations.And you had Tom Tillis and Chuck
Edwards and Virginia Fox allvoted for that funding for migrant
housing. But they'reconflating all this to mislead the

(04:58):
public. And I really haven'tseen the Democrats with a strong
response to that.
No, I mean, it's been reallyfrustrating, you know, and it's,
it's the, the same play theycontinue to use. Anytime you have
a, a natural disaster, a lotof it, you know, I think is, is Russian
backed, where they want to sowchaos and confusion and use these,
these, you know, disasters tosay, well, you know, we, you're giving

(05:21):
money to Ukraine and youshouldn't be giving it to, to this
disaster. I mean, and there'sa million ways they approach these
things, but, you know, the,the stuff that, that you hear, especially
on fema. I traveled to westernNorth Carolina on a congressional
delegation visit, just endedlast year, to see for myself. But
everybody who understandswhat's happening knows that no one's

(05:42):
stealing any money.Everything. You know, people are
working incredibly hard toprovide support throughout western
North Carolina. We'veallocated, you know, billions of
dollars at the federal level.The state needs to do a lot more.
But, you know, the, the, youknow, the, the way that bad information
continues to get out there,it's a real problem, and we're just
not able to keep up with itthe way we used to. When you had,

(06:05):
you know, more traditionalforms of media, you know, I remember
growing up and we just had theevening news, newspapers, you know,
maybe you'd get Time inNewsweek at the end of the week and,
and you had, you know, folkswho kept everyone honest. And, and
now you just have so muchbetter, you know, and, and just to
back to my point about theshadow cabinet, just do the one small
thing. If we did that, if wehad a shadow cabinet, we'd have a

(06:27):
Democrat who we'd appoint tofemale, and there'd be one person
in Congress who would be themessenger, the person to say, you
know, who understands what'shappening and is that trusted source
for our position on theseissues. And when everybody looks
for answers, you know, insteadof going to every single member of
Congress and, you know,everybody out there for, you know,

(06:47):
to get a response, you havesomeone, it's their job to understand
the issues, to dig in and tobe that Democratic response when
Trump continues to lie and lieand lie, because we know he will.
Yeah, I've referred to theirstrategy as MSU making up, because
they just make stuff up andthrow it out there. And the MAGA

(07:07):
base just feasts on thatstuff. Like there's a piece in the
Washington Post about, youknow, Trump claiming That I guess
they're referred to in hisdoji, I think it's doggy. They're.
The Elon Trump Organizationhas saved, he said 10, 20, maybe
as much as $500 billion. Andthe post went through and added up
what Doji claims they'vesaved, and it's like 2 billion, but

(07:31):
still, you know, they throwthose things out there and it stick.
No, it's, it's a, it's, it'sreally difficult keeping up with
the bad information, themisinformation, and, you know, that
that's, that's what they do.Well, I mean, the big lie works if
you just repeat it over andover. And, and the more you repeat
it, the more other peoplestart to believe it. When you have

(07:53):
Elon Musk with this tremendousmegaphone, not just the, you know,
$250 million he spent on thelast election for, you know, you're
talking about the megaphone hehas with Twitter where he can go
and, and promote these,promote this bad and get that out
there. You know, so we, weneed to continue pushing back at
every chance, but the, the,the mechanisms and the vehicles they

(08:15):
have are, are, you know,doing, you know, a lot of damage
there. And, you know, ourside, we need to just build up our
own. We need to be supportingpodcasts like this and so many other
places where we can get outour truthful information.
In response to, you know, oneof the things I was, as we all probably
do these days, laying in bedat night thinking, how the did we
get into this mess? I got tothinking about Doge. And if you spell

(08:38):
Doge backwards, it's E God. Iwonder if that's true. You know,
Elon is a God. Does he. Imean, he acts like he thinks he's
a God. And, you know,yesterday in the, or two days ago
in the Oval Office, steeplinghis fingers as if he's, you know,
Moses from upon high, youknow, what do you think his agenda

(09:01):
is? Wiley is a former memberof Congress and somebody that, I
don't know if you've met himor had any interaction with him,
but, you know, you're bothoriginally from California, I think,
and what are your thoughts onthat guy? And where is, where is
he taking this country?
I mean, it's a really scarytime, and it was harrowing for me
to see that Oval Office scenefrom just the other day where you

(09:23):
had Elon Musk with his hat on,standing next to the, the, the Resolute
desk there in the Oval Officewith his kid. And the kid is Is there
saying to Trump, shush, shush,you shut your mouth. And, and, and
I swear I even heard too, thatyou're not really the president from
the kids. So that's the stuffthat you, you hear, you know, kids,
kids at 3 years old, you know,just repeat with. And so obviously

(09:46):
people have, you know, Muskhad been saying that stuff about
Trump. So, you know, the factthat this guy has so much power is,
is there and, and he is makingmoney off of all of this. You know,
he, he just got a, a Tesla,got a $400 million security contract
just the other day. Theconflicts of interest are all over
the place, and it's, it's justincredibly scary what, what we're

(10:10):
seeing with Musk and, andTrump, you know, obviously is indebted
to him and is just letting himgo on. What, what I think is, you
know, I don't know enoughabout, you know, I can't really say
too much about themotivations, but it just seems like
this guy is on this tremendousego trip and, you know, we're, we're
footing the bill.
That's right. That's right.I've got two other things that you

(10:32):
kind of skipped over, myfriend, and then I'll throw it back
to mo but the U. S. Senate.You're taking a look, huh?
We, we are. Yeah. No, it's,you know, one of the few races where
we have a real chance to win.And, you know, I have a ton of work
I want to finish. My Congressgot cut short because of Republican
gerrymandering, and one twoyears ago, one of just six Republican

(10:56):
seats that we flipped in thatlast con, and we've got a real chance
to, to flip a seat. And, youknow, you don't have to look very
far for, for reasons here asThom Tillis continues to be a spineless
weasel in, in Washington, youknow, continually voting against
North Carolina and doingliterally anything Trump tells him
to do. I think we deservebetter than that. We're taking a

(11:16):
good look. You know, there's alot of other things on the table
too, but that's one think, youknow, will be especially important
if we're ever gonna, you know,get things done in Washington. And,
and for me, my personal issue,you know, ending partisan gerrymander.
That's, that's, that'ssomething that we can end. As long
as we just get 50 votes in theSenate and, and a majority in the
House, you know, and apresident who will sign a bill, we

(11:39):
don't have to worry about theSupreme Court. So you know, my goal
is, is how can we get billslike that through? And the Senate
is one way we can do it.
Where are you when you'rethinking on that race? Are you wait
to see what other potentialsare doing?
Yeah, you know, I mean, we'reexploring it now. I just had a great
two days in Charlotte talkingto a ton of folks there. You know,

(12:01):
my district was carryingRaleigh and eastern North Carolina.
So, you know, visiting,touring, getting a sense for the
issues that folks care about.We're not quite there yet, but, you
know, certainly taking a look.Good, good.
Well, we encourage you outhere in western North Carolina to
please look, because if, youknow, we need a healthy primary too.
I mean, I think that helps ourparty and helps these candidates

(12:26):
learn more about, a lot moreabout the states because they're
out traveling. So your shadowcabinet idea, where is that? And
how can we get Mo shadowed tothe Department of Defense?
Well, you know, I did. Iassigned a few people in this opinion
piece just so folks would havean idea. I had Adam Schiff at, at

(12:46):
the Department of Justice. Ihad Adam Smith from Washington, a
great member of the Houseassigned to the Department of Defense.
But, you know, the, the.
Oh, well, that guy's gotta,that guy's gotta go. Come on, we
gotta get Mo in there.
So, you know, but I've beenpushing it with my, with my former
colleagues in Congress.Everybody has read the opinion piece

(13:08):
and, you know, it's. It'ssomething that I'm hoping that, that
Hakeem and Chuck Schumer willadopt. But, you know, there's petitions
out there for it, a ton ofother folks. You know, Professor
Timothy Snyder did a bigsubstack about it. So, you know,
it's out there and it's, it's.You know, sometimes it just takes
a little time for these thingsto boil. But Mo, we need you, you
know, we, we need folksstanding up to Hegseth, you know,

(13:30):
someone who I think is goingto be absolutely a disaster for,
for North Carolina and thearmed forces. So I hope, you know,
you'll continue to use yourplatform, you know, as a colonel
and as a, you know, rememberthe armed forces to, to stand up
when you, when they continueto break norms, you know, and support
them when they do things thatare right. But, you know, from what

(13:51):
I'm seeing, this is a guywho's just totally unqualified. And
we have Thom Tillis to thankfor, for his confirmation. You know,
it's, it's been reported overand over that Tillis told everybody
he was going to oppose Hegsethon the day of the vote and folded
like a deck of cards right atthe end with pressure from Trump.
And that's, that's really kindof the, when, when you go and you,

(14:12):
you take a position and thenyou fold like that, everybody knows
in Washington at least youwill fold over and over and over
and it just shows who youserve. And it's not that folks in
here in North Carolina and,and even worse too, you saw there
was this, the, the sister inlaw who said that she would, you
know, put her story out andTillis had given her the indication

(14:32):
that if she, if she shared herstory and went out there publicly,
she'd have his support inopposition. And, and he went back
on her, which is especially horrendous.
Yeah, it seemed like the 118thCongress was horrible in the 100,
even worse, which is hard toimagine. But Itilis has been a real
disappointment. It almostseems like why even bother having

(14:54):
Congress if there's going tobe a rubber stamp for anything that,
that Trump wants to do?Because there's certainly been no
pushback on any of the thingsthat would have been considered egregious,
you know, just a couple ofyears ago. He's just running roughshod
with, you know, no checks andbalances. So I agree with the hedge.
Seth is a horrible, horriblechoice. And I've said a couple of

(15:15):
times that it's, it's justincredible that we have a commander
in chief and Secretary ofDefense who can't meet the minimum
standards of conduct that wedemand of 18 year old recruits and
to have to, you know, to lookup to them and to follow orders from
people that can't meet thestandards of a, you know, the private
that's arriving this week forbasic training is just really bad

(15:36):
for the country and fordemocracy and for, you know, the
role that we've traditionallyplayed around the world. I want to
ask you about another thingthat has been in the headlines quite
a bit and that's usaid whichhas been just scuttled, you know,
in the first couple of weeksof Trump administration. And it's
a program that, I tell you, alot of folks like myself who served

(15:58):
in the military are bigsupporters of diplomacy because the
best wars are the ones younever fight. And the money that we
spend, which is pennies on thedollar, I think the USAID budgets
less than 1% of the federalbudget and now they've just shut
it down. And it's havingimpacts not just, you know, overseas
where People are starving andgoing through, you know, horrible,

(16:18):
you know, things in their, intheir own homeland that we traditionally
have helped with. But alsohere, where, you know, there are
reports that there are, youknow, millions and millions of dollars
of agricultural exports thatare rotting, that American farmers
grew that just stopped becauseUSAID was shut down. So I'd be interested
in your thoughts on thiseffort to pull America back from

(16:41):
its role as a world leader.
You know, it's really scaryand it doesn't make any sense unless
you look at it through thelens of Vladimir Putin, who Trump
continues to, to get closerand closer with. You know, he's,
he's, he's, he's, you know,attacking our democratic allies while
cozying up to dictators likePutin. They want the chaos, they
want the US to, to withdrawfrom the world stage so that Russia

(17:03):
and China can step in. AndChina is aggressively moving in these
places where they're talkingabout USAID pulling, pulling out.
But, but it really, you know,to your point, this is just about
diplomacy. This is whether weare part of a global community and
we do so well for ourbusinesses, we do so well for our
economy, we do so well forpeace around the globe when we exert

(17:24):
leadership. You know, I'vetraveled, you know, around the world
during my time in Congress.You know, whether it's, it's, you
know, visiting Ukraine or, or,you know, Australia and the Pacific
to see how these partnershipshave strengthened our economy, strengthened
our democracy. And it's ascary time when you start turning
your back on these things.These all are incredible tools for

(17:46):
diplomacy, for getting againthe, you know, helping, helping,
you know, our economy bypromoting U.S. businesses. Most of
this money, you know, goes toU.S. companies. And it's, it's really,
you know, I think what, Ithink what, you know, what it is
also, it's, it's bait andswitch. What they really want to
do is get more and more taxcuts for corporations in the, and

(18:07):
when they attack a small lineitem for usaid. And there's, there's
absolutely going to be someline, line items somewhere in these
massive, you know, budgetsthat people can disagree with. And
sure, I can disagree, but, youknow, on a whole, these are tremendous
programs that truly allow usto, to project our strength and our

(18:27):
values.
Yeah, it's, we had Tom Vilsackwas on a couple of days ago with
us and he was talking about,he's served 12 years as secretary
of Agriculture. And you know,he was saying that it's really kind
of heartbreaking for him, himto see the demonization of federal
employees that, you know, Iworked after I left the military,
I worked at CongressionalResearch Service and then at the

(18:50):
Department of Labor. Andcertainly in any organization, there
are, you know, some peoplethat shouldn't be on the payroll,
but the overwhelming majorityare dedicated folks that, you know,
do what they do because theythink they make a difference, and
they do make a difference. Andto see them demonized and demoralized
is just, just a horrible thingto, to see happen. And especially
to see the MAGA crowd cheeringit on.

(19:10):
Yeah, it's really scary. Andwhat they're talking about, too,
and what the Trump goal is, isto put party loya, these career positions
and, and expand, you know,significantly the political appointees,
you know, he has, which is, issomething that people should be really
worried about. And, you know,they tried to do it at the end of
his last term, and they'restarting with it again now. And these

(19:33):
buyouts are, are, are, youknow, their way of trying to get
out people that don't agreewith Trump, you know, and, and put
their own people in there. Andthat's, that's a pretty scary thing
that, you know, because the,the folks who serve in the armed
forces, the folks in the civilservice, you know, they're there
to support the United Statesof America, regardless of who the
President is. You know, wehave a system of checks and balances.

(19:54):
And there can, you know, yousee Trump trying to just go around
everybody. He's going to tryto go around Congress, he's going
to try to go around thecourts, and that's, you know, that's
really scary. So, you know,the more I think you can, you can
shine light on the good workthat people do all throughout the
government. You know, peoplewho work incredibly hard, and they're
all over North Carolina, too.We've got, you know, a big EPA campus,

(20:17):
you know, you know, atResearch Triangle Park. Just one
of so many that I think aboutpeople doing amazing research there.
But, you know, we have thoseall over North Carolina, and those
are the folks that, that, youknow, he's attacking and talking
about. And, you know, we needto, we need to let folks know all
the good work they're doing.
So, Wiley, you know, we'relooking at a tough couple years here.

(20:40):
What do you think theDemocrats did right in this last
election here in NorthCarolina? And then what do you think
Democrats have to work on?Don't be easy on them. Come on, I
know you're a politician, but,you know, let's get serious about
this because Mo and I havesome opinions that we've shared on
other shows and we think theDemocrats need to get tougher. And,
but we're also reallyinterested in your perspective because

(21:03):
you're in a different part ofthe state and you spent some time
in Congress. And so what, whatare your thoughts on how do the Democrats
start winning again in North.
Yeah, no, a thousand percent.You know, I think, I think it's,
it's two things. Number one,just like you said, we need to be
much tougher. That's somethingI've been saying as well. And I will
stand with you any time of theday when we talk about things we

(21:24):
ought to be doing to be a lottougher in pushing back against Trump
and talking about the thingsthat we want to do. You know, and
then number two is, isfocusing on economic issues. That's
really why we've lost so many,you know, blue collar voters because
we're not doing anywhere neara good enough job communicating our
good positions on policies.We've lost this messaging back. And
that was a big part of whathappened in this last election. Candidates

(21:47):
who embraced that, you know,who's focused on housing and education
and child care and, and healthcare. Those are the issues that the
folks I represent, that's whatthey wanted to hear. And, and we
saw folks all over the countrythat were able to win in the same
states that Trump won becausethey embraced, you know, that economic
message. And you know, that's,that's at least my focus. That's
what I did in Congress as partof the Congressional Dads caucus.

(22:08):
So, you know, I think thoseare, those are the things where you
look and see how we won justabout every race in North Carolina
other than the presidency. Thebig ones with, you know, Lieutenant
Governor, Attorney General,Governor, Supreme Court, and, and
Don Davis winning a real toughcongressional seat in eastern North
Carolina again. And you lookto Arizona, Nevada, Michigan, those

(22:29):
are places where we, ourDemocrats won in the Senate, where
Trump won, you know, but theyembraced that. I served with, you
know, the, the many of thefolks who won those races, you know,
who went from the House to theSenate, Liz Slotkin, Ruben Gallego,
and that was, that was their,their focus. And, and you know, they
ran tough campaigns, so, andthe voters rewarded them. But, you
know, I think part of it toois, is kind of talking about places

(22:51):
like western North Carolina,you know, who, who are left out because
of partisan gerrymandering.That's the thing that, that I've
spent most of my time talkingand I think as if we're talking about
being tough. You got to talkabout gerry. Republican gerrymandering
in North Carolina costDemocrats control of that. If we
hadn't had this rare middecade gerrymander, that, that erased
my seat, it erased KathyMannings, it erased Jeff Jackson's.

(23:13):
Hakeem Jeffries would be thespeaker of the House today with a
218 to 217 Congress. So thosethree seats that, that were gerrymandered
away were literally thedifference. And then when you look
at, you know, howgerrymandering has affected us nationally,
Republicans are much tougherand they're much more ruthless with
this. And according to the,the nonpartisan Brennan center, and
I agree with thiswholeheartedly, Republicans have

(23:34):
a 16 seat gerrymanderingadvantage nationwide. So there's
some places where Democratsgerrymander, but there's far more
districts where Republicans.And then even worse, you look at
the census coming up in 2030,the states that are going to gain
seats in Congress afterreapportionment are, are mainly Republican
states. Texas, Florida, NorthCarolina is going to gain a seat

(23:55):
and we're looking at probablya 25 seat deficit just based on extreme
gerrymander. So places likewestern North Carolina where if you
had a fair map, you'd be ableto get Democrats elected, but you
have a gerryman, that's goingto always help Republicans and that's,
you know, that's a realproblem and it's, it's a reason we're
not getting anything done inCongress. But we got to acknowledge

(24:16):
the fact that Republicans aremuch tougher at this. They have done
a much more effective job atcarving up maps. Now I have a bill
for it that would donationwide independent redistricting,
put every state at the same,you know, with the same nonpartisan
commission. That's the, thebest way to go. But we're losing
that for gerrymandering. Andin the last election, it cost us
control of the House and itvery well may in the next.

(24:37):
So what would you attribute,you know, Governor Stein and Lieutenant
Governor Hunt and on down theline, some of those statewide, how
are we winning those races butwe're not winning it at a local level?
Well, you know, I mean, somuch of it is, you know, I just look
at it through the lens ofdistricts. You know, if you have,
you know, Marjorie TaylorGreene in a safe, bright red Republican

(24:59):
district in Georgia. No, nomatter, the best candidate in the
world with millions andmillions of dollars isn't going to
beat her because she's in asafe red seat. And even In North
Carolina, 40% of the votersvoted for Mark Robinson even after
they knew all of the horriblestuff about him. So, you know, there's,
you know, there's a limit forthese districts. So, you know, I
focus on the places where wehave a shot, you know, and in North

(25:22):
Carolina, they can'tgerrymander the boundaries of our
state. So we're always goingto be a competitive state. Nationwide,
we're looking at really justseven swing states, again, determine
the next presidency thatmatter. We're one of those. So, you
know, I take a lot of hopethere. But your point about Jeff
Jackson, Rachel Hunt, youknow, they ran very strong campaigns.
You know, they had the, theresources to get out their positive

(25:43):
message. They talked about theeconomy, talked about those economic
issues that, that, you know, Icontinue to, to push and talk about
as well. And the votersrewarded them, you know, and, and,
you know, I, I, I, I thinkthat's that for me. I took a lot
of lessons from those races,but certainly, like you really disappointed
that, that we didn't get therefor, for Harris. But, you know, if

(26:06):
you look at the country, morepeople voted for, for someone other
than Trump in this lastelection. It was a very close race.
You know, just 110,000 votesgo the other way in Michigan, Wisconsin
and Pennsylvania. And Trump isnot in the Oval Office right now.
So it was close, but itshouldn't have been and we should
have done a better jobcommunicating, and I think we should

(26:27):
have been a lot tougher. I, I,I think there's, you know, a number
of things that, you know, anycandidate for president ought to
do. And I spent a lot of timetalking about immigration, you know,
and securing the southernborder, fixing a broken immigration
system. I think Harris, youknow, could have done a much better
job there, too, because thatwas a big issue for folks and, and
we continue to see that playout in the campaign.

(26:48):
I think you're exactly rightabout North Carolina and it's, I
mean, we truly are a purplestate. I mean, I think we're probably
the most purple state in thecountry. We're, you know, for, I
guess what, three, fourelections now, we've elected a Democratic
governor at the same time thatthe state went for the Republican
for president. But you'reright with the, with gerrymandering.
I mean, Republicans get 50% ofthe votes in the state, but they

(27:12):
end up getting 72% of theseats in the, in Congress. And the
only way you can make 50% into72% is by cheating and drawing the
Lines to, you know, whereyou're, you're picking your voters
rather than the voters pickingtheir representative. And that's,
it's wrong regardless of whichparty's doing it. That's not the
way democracy is supposed towork. But what did Democrats do?

(27:32):
I mean, if you've seen thepolling where I think it's 31% of
the country has a favorableopinion of Democrat, 59% have an
unfavorable. It just seemslike we've done a horrible job of
messaging that I think JoeBiden, you know, history will look
back and, you know, rate himas a, as a pretty damn good president
who did some good things, buthe didn't get credit for me, got

(27:53):
blamed for things that, Imean, some, he should have, but a
lot of things that he, that heshouldn't have gotten blamed for
because we did a bad job ofgetting that message out. And it's
going to get harder. You know,now that, you know, you mentioned
Elon taking over Twitter, youknow, Zuckerberg has kind of surrendered
Facebook. The mainstream mediais bowed down to, to Trump. So getting

(28:16):
the message out is going to beeven more difficult going forward.
So how do we overcome thathurdle and get the truth out to the
American people?
Well, you know, just to yourpoint about, you know, these companies
bowing down, you know, they'rebowing down and they're, they're
paying, they're literallypaying blackmail money to Trump.
Twitter, I just saw the otherday did, it was $10 million to settle

(28:38):
a bogus lawsuit about himbeing, you know, booted off the platform.
You know, that's, that's justnuts to me that this is a lot, this
is happening without too muchattention, that all these companies
are settling these boguslawsuits and giving Trump millions,
literally just money into hispocket as president, United States.
You know, but to your pointabout the Democratic brand, you know,

(28:59):
it's, it's a, it's, it is, ithas been hit hard. And I point back
to one thing. I, I think formy time in Congress that, that I
take as the lens. I look atthis. In this last election, the
New York Times did an analysisof every seat, every state legislative
seat in the country and everycongressional seat. He found that
eight person, only 8% of thecongressional seats were competitive
and only 7% of the statelegislative seats were competitive.

(29:22):
And, and that's that realdivide that I saw in Congress wasn't
Democrats or versusRepublicans. It was safe seats versus
competitive seats. And I, Igot to Congress in one of those rare
competitive seats a Republicanleaning seat could have gone either
way was part of that, youknow, small percentage, less than
10% of the seats that arecompetitive. And, and because of

(29:42):
that it, you know, the folksin Washington, their only concern
for over 90% is gettingthrough a Democratic primary or republic.
So the messages you hear overand over are about appealing to the
far left or the far right. Andso Republicans have done a really
good job elevating andhighlighting the, the most extreme
voices in our party andbranding the whole party with that

(30:03):
message. And when I served inCongress, most of the people I worked
with, you know, were rightthere in the center trying to get
things done. You know, becauseof gerrymandering, we had the least
productive Congresses in ournation's history. I think, I think
this next Congress is going tobe more of the same. The only small
silver lining I see in, in theU.S. house of Representatives is
how incredibly small thatmajority is. For the Republicans

(30:26):
it's just a three seatmajority and for the next few months
it's going to be a one seatmajority. So literally you have some
big bill coming up and someonemisses a flight, the whole bill might
go down so incredibly close.But you know, that silver lining
for me is just how incapableRepublicans in the House are at governing,
working together, getting onthe same page. And you know, so I,

(30:48):
I'm, I'm, I'm hopeful that atleast that will continue in terms
of avoiding some of the reallyworst of what could happen out of
the House. But Trump, Trump isjust, is moving regardless of the
House. He's going to try to goaround him and that's. That for me
is, is, is one of the morescary things. And I think he's going
to do it because the House,you know, Republicans are so inept
and incapable of getting theiract together. But keep a close eye

(31:12):
on the House and the votecounts because every single one is
going to be an incrediblyclose vote. And who shows up is going
to be a big part of whathappens in the US Congress over the
next.
Yeah, I'm curious to seewhat's going to happen with the.
Mike Johnson, I thinkyesterday came out with the proposal
on the 10 year plan with the,I think it was at a $4 trillion,

(31:34):
four and a half trilliondollar tax cut some and to pay for
that, you know, some massivecuts to Medicaid which in North Carolina
was, you know, thanks to TomTillis and Chuck Edwards. You know,
we drug our feet for years andyears and years on Medicaid expansion.
And now after we've achievedit, the, you know, Congress is looking
at making a massive cut tothe, to the Medicaid program which

(31:55):
is going to, you know, taxcuts are going to help the rich and
cutting Medicaid is going tohurt the poor. But it'll be interesting
to see if, if he can musterthe votes because this is going to
add a, I think I saw where,you know, it'll push US towards a
$40 trillion national debt.And apparently debt and deficit only
matters when a Democrat's inthe White House. But what do you
think's going to happen withit with this budget bill that Johnson's

(32:18):
laid out?
Yeah, I mean, I think thebest, the best Republicans can do
is just massive tax cuts forcorporations and the wealthy. That's
the one thing they all agreeon. And it's gonna, to your point,
a thousand percent, it isgonna, you know, be a huge hit on
the deficit and the debt. Theywill rack up those costs and you
know, our kids are going to bethe ones paying for it. You're close

(32:40):
to a hundred thousand dollarsa person as our, every single person
in the United States share ofthat national. And you know, I've,
I've fought and fought andfought in Congress as a member of
the Problem Solvers Caucus,the group in the center, trying to,
to bridge these divides, youknow, to, to get stuff done. And
it's an incredibly difficult,you know, time for that, you know,

(33:01):
in large part because ofgerrymandering. But you know, we,
we, we, we have to deal with,with spending and I agree with Republicans
on that. But it, but it'salso, it's also a revenue issue.
And so, you know, they're atmaking corporations, the wealthy
pay their fair share is partof this. And my hope is, you know,
if we're actually really goingto solve these problems, it's going
to be done in a bipartisanway. Spending and we deal with revenue.

(33:24):
That's the only way we'regoing to solve this. But, but giving
massive tax cuts and saying,oh, it's going to make the economy
so strong, it doesn't matter.It's just, it's, it's a fantasy and
it's been proven wrong overand over and over again. Of course,
the only people who benefitare those at, in the, the very top.
The billionaires who supportedDonald Trump are going to do really,

(33:45):
really well. But you know,the, the folks, you know, middle
class North Carolinians aregoing to get totally screwed. And
you know, and just one otherpoint on that that I, you know, keep
making anytime I Can we look,you look at the spending for Republicans.
In the last election, you hadbasically a hundred people who, who
accounted for half of allspending for Republicans. These are

(34:07):
maybe close to billionairesand billionaires, you know, a hundred
people accounting for close tohalf of the spending. So if you're
the Republicans and you'relooking at, to fill half of your
campaign coffers, you know,for every race, you know, and you're
only looking at 100 people,you, you sure bet those are the people
who are going to be saying,cut my taxes if you want me to keep

(34:27):
giving you money. And that'swhat they're going to do.
Well, and you've seen it, too,with Trump's actions in the last
few days. He is suspending theForeign Corrupt Practices act to
allow American corporations tobribe foreign officials, and then
shutting down the ConsumerFinancial Protection Agency, which
is, was put into place to stopbig financial institutions from preying

(34:49):
on ordinary Americans. So it'spretty clear where, where the priorities
are.
Yeah, absolutely. And, and,and they're, they're just not getting
enough attention on any ofthis because they're doing 20 other
things at the same time. NorthCarolina's own Hampton Dellinger
is, was one of those who hasa, a very important watchdog position
in, in Washington. They'retrying to, to sideline him as well.

(35:11):
So, you know, put, you know,include him in, in that list as well,
because they, they don't wantany, they, they want no accountability,
and that's the only way theyget away with what they're doing.
So, you know, those, those,those government watchdogs are incredibly
important.
And then the Democrats aregoing to have to come in and clean
it all up again. I mean, we dothis, why is it we're the only adults

(35:33):
in the room? I mean, theReagan tax cuts, Clinton came in
and balanced the budget, Bushcame in, Obama had to clean that
up. Trump comes in and thenBiden makes some really good strides
on these issues. Why is it theDemocrats always have to be the adults
in the room? Why don't we justlet them? You know, there's a certain
side of me that says, okay,well, they've got power. If they

(35:55):
want to run this country intothe ground, let them, because they're
going to pay the consequencesfor it.
Well, you know, I hope, I hopemy, my colleagues in Congress are
going to take that point aboutgetting tough on all of this, because
if Republicans want to do it,they should do it with Republican
votes only because they have,they have control of the House and
Senate, you know, but, butwhen I served in Congress, it was,

(36:17):
again, it was Democratsstepping up to be the adults in the
room. All of the, the thingsthat we did in this con, the big,
the only big things we did inthe House were all bipartisan because
Republicans couldn't get theiract together. They had to come to
us to, to fund the government.Over and over, these continuing resolutions
to keep the lights on weresupported by more Democrats than
Republicans. And, you know,that was the passing a budget, it

(36:39):
was raising the debt ceiling,it was providing, you know, needed
support to Israel, Ukraine andTaiwan. Those are all things that
Democrats did. And we did. Itdidn't do it because we wanted to
screw Republicans. We did itbecause it was the right thing to
do for the country. And I, youknow, I think, think we'll, we'll
continue to see that, youknow, but, but the mess is going

(37:01):
to be significant here. And,and again, we came so close to getting
back the House. And if we haddone that, you know, these, these
massive tax cuts for, forbillionaires and corporations, you
know, wouldn't have happened.And, you know, we're going to be,
we're all going to be payingthe price. We're all going to be
footing that bill over thenext decade as we, we clean up, whatever,
whatever happens. But, youknow, we got to make sure they pay

(37:24):
a price for this. We got toeducate people on, on really what
they're doing. And it doesn't,it's, it's not complicated to realize
that, you know, if you'regoing to give away all your money
to these corporations and, andthe, the ultra wealthy, you know,
you're not gonna have moneyto, to fix the roads, to pay for
healthcare, to pay for a goodquality education for our kids, and
to provide those basicservices that so many of us rely

(37:46):
on. Social Security, Medicare,Medicaid. So that's, that's a place
where, you know, I thinkhopefully we're going to see them
fall short. But, but I'm, I'mvery worried.
Yeah, I hear you, I hear you.And obviously nobody wants to run
the country into the ground,but it just seems to me like they
need to pay the price at somepoint, and I don't. The Democrats

(38:06):
are really bad at that. And Idon't understand, or maybe it's just
too complicated these days,but we don't seem to have a formula
to do that. But. All right,let's move on here to something more
fun. So you and I are bothadvanced guys. Tell us your most
fun story about doing advancefor President Obama or candidate

(38:26):
Obama?
Yeah, I mean, advance was, wasfantastic. If anyone, you know, is
listening doesn't understandit, you know, we're the ones who
went out and organized allthese, these events. I, I started
for Al Gore and traveled allover the world with him and later
for, for President Obama. Youknow, my thing is I did the big rallies,
so organized these 10, 20,100,000 person rallies and one of

(38:47):
the, one of the best jobsyou'll ever have. I remember I did
President Obama, then SenatorBarack Obama's last rally in Manassas,
Virginia in 2008. And it was,we had three days. We got to, man,
we got to Manassas three daysbefore this. He said they wanted
to do a big one, as big as wecould. And I didn't sleep for three
days. And we, we got over ahundred thousand people at this rally.

(39:11):
His last of the campaign. Youknow, I remember that momentum we
needed to get Virginia overthe top for the first time. And we
did. We had that tremendousmomentum and energy from that rally.
People, people, you know,because we didn't, you know, we had
such a huge crowd. Peopleparked three and a half miles away
to, because of the location wehad to get there and because there's

(39:33):
so many cars and. But theyshowed up, they came and they got
him. They carried him over thefinish line. That was one of the
better ones. There's so manyof those great ones. I'm sure, David,
you got a ton. But that for meis, is what I kind of, you know,
go and dig deep for when, whenI'm feeling down like I am after
this last election. And I,I'm, I'm very hopeful and channel

(39:56):
that energy we had in that2008 election. Because, you know,
by the way, that was the lasttime we won a Senate seat in North
Carolina. So we got to findthat energy again. And that's, that's,
that's, I think, you know, itcan be, you know, a lot of less positive
things to say right now aboutpolitics. It's nice to remember that
those, those important momentsthat certainly were big highlights.

(40:19):
Yeah, yeah, we'll get, we'llget back there eventually, I believe.
And I'm not a rose coloredglasses kind of guy, but I will get
back there. And man, I, I didthe similar last event in Iowa in
2008. We had the largest crowdin Iowa history. Wasn't quite a hundred
thousand, but man, those werethe days. And you know, my story

(40:42):
about Obama and I haven'treally told it on this podcast but
did his announcement InFebruary of 2007 in Waterloo, Iowa,
snow. We'd had about a foot ofsnow a day before we had it. We held
his event at an elementaryschool. Snow was piled up on all

(41:03):
of the parking lot, and peopleparked their cars on top of the snow
piles to get into this event.So we couldn't get his bus, and.
And I get a frantic call fromGeorge Caudill, who I'm sure you
know, and he said, wheeler,where are you? We can't get to the
door. So I ran out the doorand found the bus founded on the
bus, and assumed I was goingto get my ass reamed for, you know,

(41:23):
not being able to get the busup to the door. And he looked at
me. He could tell I wasfrustrated, and the people on the
bus were a little frustrated.And he said, listen, boy, David,
you packed him in here. Thisis terrific. Grab Michelle's arm.
Let's go. And in that moment,he just diffused all of the tension
in the room and on the bus.And I will never forget that feeling
and what he did to me, becausethen I relax. And we had a. You know,

(41:45):
we had a terrific event, butI'm sure you've got a hundred stories
like that.
Oh, I love that it was so coldin Iowa then, too.
Oh, geez. Yeah, it was almost.I think it was seven or eight degrees
that day. And I'm runningoutside with your sleeves and in
jeans, but. All right, Wiley.Well, I'm gonna get most have one
more question, and then we'llwrap this up and. And call it a day.

(42:08):
Go ahead, Mo. Oops. I thinkyou're. Well, edit this out, but
you're unmuted or you'remuted. Mo.
Yes.
Okay, go ahead.
I've been a member of the U.S. Supreme court bar for about 36
years now, and it alwaysstruck me as his odd years ago, when,
you know, Antonin Scalia andRuth Bader Ginsburg were polar opposites
on the court, but off thecourt, they were really close friends

(42:31):
that, you know, their spouses,you know, go out to dinner and to
the opera and to events, andthey were the best of friends, although
you would never know it if yousaw them in the courtroom. I'm just
wondering, in Congress, didyou have a. Did you see anything
like that where people thatyou wouldn't expect to get along
that actually did?
No, of course. And first andforemost, that was my. My approach

(42:53):
to my time as a North Carolinasenator and as a member of Congress.
I think you go there to be adiplomat, to build those bridges
and even the crazy ones. Youknow, I worked incredibly hard to
build those relationships witheverybody, Democrats, Republicans
and the like. You know thatin, in, you know, when you serve
in a, a body in the house of435 people, you'll get nothing done

(43:16):
by yourself. Anyone who tellsyou they can do something on their
own is nuts. And it's justnot, it won't happen. You only get
things done if you buildrelationships. And so the relationships
really were the most importantpart of my work in Congress. And
so no, I, I, you know, I, I,I, I try to find, find the good in
every single person that Iserve with. And, and you go there

(43:36):
to do big things. And the onlything, the only way you're going
to do big things is if you,you can build support from, from
different parts of, of the US. Congress, so on, on a vote, you
know, anybody could be part ofa coalition to help get your bill
across the finish line or, orat the very least not just kill it
before it even gets moving. Sono, I, I, I, I, I embrace the, you

(43:59):
know, the idea of fightingabout issues and then, and then going,
getting a, you know, a bourbonafter votes and, and did that with
a number of my, my Republicancolleagues and my Democratic colleagues.
But there's, you know, thestuff you see on tv, so much of it
is just, is, is just for thecameras and it's totally fake. Like,
Nancy Mace is probably one ofthe, the, the best examples of someone

(44:21):
who's just totally, totallyfull of it in front of the camera.
And you know, they, and theyjust acting, it's, it's just performative
that, and, and, and really youonly have maybe 20 on each side,
Democrats and 20 Republicans.They're really there. Most, most,
most are not, you know,they're trying to get things done,
they're trying to worktogether. You know, I, I built relationships

(44:42):
with Patrick McHenry who isthe chair of my, my House, my committee,
Financial services Committee,you know, and we're able to do a
lot because you know, youbuild those relationships. But you
know, the, the reality for mewas, was very different from what
you see on tv. And you know, Ijust don't have the mean bone. You
go to work, you try to berespectful of ever everyone. And

(45:05):
for the, the folks who can'tdo that for me are, I'm very disappointed
by the ones who don't seetheir job is as building relationships.
All right, well, you said thekeyword for mo Bourbon. What's your
Favorite, what's your favorite?
You know, I, I love a goodWoodford Old Fashioned. Yeah, Mo,
anytime you want to knock, I,I, and I like, I like bourbon neat.
So anytime you want to get agood bourbon, I'm all there. What,

(45:29):
what, what about you guys? Youhave a favorite?
Yeah, you know, it's funny,I'm, I'm a bourbon guy, and I had
never had an Old Fashioneduntil about a year ago, and now I'm,
I'm hooked on them. I don'tknow, I just tried recently. I don't
know if you've Uncle Nearest,I don't know if you've tried it.
Uncle Nearest was a slave whotaught Jack Daniels how to make whiskey,

(45:50):
and his family has revived therecipes. And, you know, it's not
an outrageously expensive, butone that I found recently that I
think is really good.
I'm writing that down. Thatsounds great.
Well, here's another one towrite down. Wiley. I'm more of a
scotch guy. Although bourbon,I'm not opposed to it, but I'm not
really opposed to any alcohol.But there's a really good one down

(46:12):
here in of all places,Rutherford County. And nothing against
Rutherford county, but full ofthe goddamn Republicans. But Defiance
is a whiskey that's out ofthere. That Scotch whiskey that's
made here, I think it's gotsome organic additive or organic
ingredients, and it's just assoft and as sweet and as smooth as

(46:38):
you can get. It's really goodstuff. I, I highly recommend Rutherford
County's Defiance.
So that sounds great. I'mwriting that down and I love.
The name too, so. All right,well, Representative Wiley Nicholl,
thank you so much for joiningus. Can you give us a website and
any other plugs that you wantto add on the podcast here so folks

(47:01):
can connect with you?
Yeah, no, please, please, youknow, connect. Social media is great.
It's at Wiley Nickel onTwitter and Wiley Nickel NC on Facebook.
Wileynickel.com is my website.So please, you know, connect with
us and, and stay in touch, butreally grateful for the chance to,
to visit and talk andhopefully, you know, the, the conversation

(47:24):
we're having about gettingtougher as a party pays off some
real dividend in this next election.
Yeah, well, we reallyappreciate you joining us and you've
got a lot going on and, youknow, I'm just so disappointed that
folks like you and Mo are notin Congress. Can you imagine the
world with you and Mo andKathy Manning back and others? We

(47:45):
got to work towards that andgive folks some hope, and you're
the right guy to deliver thatmessage. Whatever you do, please
make sure we know what you'regonna, what path you're headed down.
Because you're a great guy,great American, and the kind of guy
that Mo and I would probablystick our neck out for. So thank
you again for joining us. AndI've got one plug. Mo, tell us about

(48:07):
your book. And then we'regonna let Wiley go and I'll send
him a copy of it.
Sure. Yeah. It's calledSovereign Oak. It's a historical
novel. It tells three storiesof historical events that actually
happened within walkingdistance of where I live here in
Asheville. Then the last partis a purely fictional tale, but I've
rushed to get the book out.It's available on Amazon, and I'm

(48:29):
donating 100% of the profitsfrom the book to Hurricane Helene
Relief here in western NorthCarolina. So if you buy a copy between
now and the end of February,that's going to be split between
an organization here calledBeloved Asheville and then Asheville
Habitat for Humanity. Thoseare two organizations that are working
on affordable housing and alsohelping folks that suffer damage

(48:51):
during Helene to get theirhomes repaired to make them livable
again.
Terrific. So that's sovereignoak on Amazon.com folks. Again, thank
you for joining us.Representative Wiley Nichol here
on Monkey you.
This has been Muck you, cohosted by Colonel Mo Davis in Asheville,

(49:12):
North Carolina, and DavidWheeler in Spruce Pine, North Carolina.
Thanks to our friend and guesttoday, Representative Wiley Nichol,
for taking time to join ourconversation. Muck you. It's produced
by American Muckrakers.Copyright 2025. You can learn more
at American Muckrakers. Dot.