August 29, 2023 • 32 mins
Chris tells the tale of two 2021 cases; one that national media tracked daily for months, and a far more mysterious, grisly case that most people have never heard about.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
People just want to know whatit's like to be me. How does it
feel to see a dead body? Tell afamily their loved one has been
murdered, talk to a rape victim,catch a killer and get them to
confess. Hold on tight, myfriends. Get ready for the
journey. And welcome to Murderwith Mannina. Welcome to murder
(00:25):
with Mannina Colleen, how areyou?
I'm great, because I just gotback from Spring skiing in
Mammoth.
Wow, that's nice. I was onspring break in Indianapolis and
the weather was shitty everyday. But one day.
Oh, I hate to tell you this, butit was 60 degrees up in the
mountains.
Colleen likes to brag a lot. Butyou guys will get used to that.
Shitty weather.
I'm so sorry for you, Chris.
(00:47):
Anyways, we're gonna jump rightinto this episode, because it's
an interesting episode on on alot of different fronts. But as
I go through my career, and I'mtalking about my cases and my
experiences, and trying to getyou guys to get inside of my
mind to know what it's actuallylike, I remember a veteran
detective telling me some advicewhen I was really young. And
(01:07):
that advice was you have toremember that most victims
aren't true victims, because ifthey were, you wouldn't be able
to do the job. And I thought fora second, and I'm young. And I
thought that seems just so weirdto me. Right? Like true victims.
When you think of true victims,a lot of people like to say
children, and they areabsolutely true victims. But I'm
really kind of glad that I neverkept that mind frame. Because
(01:30):
each case that I work in eachcall that I went on, there was a
victim, right, or the policewouldn't have come. And so I
didn't I just didn't agree withthat. Because I just felt like
everyone, you know, whateverlifestyle you have, and people
will agree. And people have saidthis to me for years and years
and years, you kind of live anddie by the lifestyle that you
have. Right? And that makessense, right? If you're into
(01:51):
crime, and you're into drugs,and you're doing all that stuff,
it's a dangerous profession,right. And a lot of people get
murdered. But I'm just kind ofglad that I thought outside of
the box. And just remember thatat the end of the day victims
are victims, and everyone's kindof doing the best that they can
at that time in their life. Andso I try to keep that in mind.
But what's interesting is we'rekind of going through these
(02:11):
cases, and we're going to betalking a lot about my cases and
then cold cases. One of thecases that Colleen and I came
across and this is a reallyinteresting case is her name.
The victim's name was CassidyRainwater. Okay. And when you
look at this case, you're gonnanotice a few things. But the one
thing that I noticed right offthe bat, in this case is
gruesome. It's twisty. It's didthis really happen? It's like
(02:36):
one of those where you go, Whoa,right. And when you think of
cases that go, Whoa, a lot oftimes, they'll make the news.
Right. And what's interestingabout this case, is it happened
around the same time is GabbyPetito's case. Right? So we're
looking July August 2021. SoCassidy Rainwater goes missing,
(02:56):
I think at the end of July and2021. And nobody even reports
her to the authorities, I thinkfor almost a month later. And
this happens, I think, correctme if I'm wrong, Colleen,
Missouri, right. It wasMissouri. Yeah. Right. Okay. And
we Dallas County, okay. Andwe've got Gabby Petito over on
the other side of the country.
She goes missing, right. Andthere's two different stories
(03:17):
here, you've got Gabby, who'sbeautiful, young, attractive.
You know, with her fiance, theylook like the perfect couple,
they're going to go across thecountry, and they're going to
take pictures, and the wholeworld gets to see how great
their life is. And then all of asudden, you see some videos of
them being on a domesticsituation, and the whole world
(03:38):
is watching because Gabby goesmissing on the other side of the
country. Cassidy goes missing.
Nobody cares about it. Gabby,everybody cares about. So
there's just this big kind ofdifference of which cases does
the media pick? And that's agood question, right? Because at
(03:59):
the end of the day, when youlook at these two cases, Cassidy
Rainwater's got more of the OHMY GOD effect. Gabby really
doesn't. Right, right, Gabbyreally doesn't. So we're gonna
kind of take you through. And Ijust think it's kind of an
intriguing thing. But what thepoint I want to make is that
regardless of class, or race, orwhere you come from, or you
(04:22):
know, all of those socialstatus, all of those things,
I've always just kind ofinvestigated cases the same that
everybody needs to have theircase investigated and answers
for the family. If you're thefamily that lives in suburbia
where Dateline visits a lot, oryou're a case in, you know, a
lower economic neighborhood.
They deserve that as much soI've kind of always taken that
(04:44):
attitude. So when you look atthese two cases, that kind of
happened at the same time, um,you will see a stark, you know,
difference in the way that themedia you don't even know you
didn't even know about CassidyRainwater. And I'd be really
interested just here if any ofour listeners even knew Who
Cassidy Rainwater was. GabbyPetito? Probably unless you were
living under a rock. So,Cassidy's situation. And Colleen
(05:05):
is going to kind of go throughthe timeline. But to start it
off, she goes missing late inJuly. It's not reported by
anybody until a month later. Andthen a lot of twists. I'm
talking about body parts infreezers and things to that
degree. So Colleen, if you wantto take us through the timeline,
let's talk about this case alittle bit.
(05:27):
Okay, I'll just briefly reviewthe timeline, and then you can
talk to it and we can get moreinto details. So Cassidy
Rainwater was last seen on July25 2021. She was reported
missing by a family member amonth later on August 25 2021.
That's crazy. If you look atGabby Petito. Mom was getting
(05:48):
communication from her everyday. A couple days went by, she
started to get a little bitnervous, kind of talked herself
out of it. And as days went by,she got more nervous and
reported itimmediately, immediately. And
and by the way, the sheriff onthis case, said it was six weeks
before a family member reportedher missing but when I looked at
the dates that didn't add up,yeah, actually August 25. So
(06:11):
Dallas County authoritiesdetermined that Phelps this
James Phelps was the last personto have been in contact with
Cassidy. So they go to a housethat he's renting in Lebanon,
Missouri, and Phelps tells themhe was letting Cassidy stay in
his loft while she got back onher feet. And he claimed that a
(06:32):
month prior Cassidy met a car atthe end of his driveway in the
middle of the night and left hisproperty on her own accord and
he hadn't seen her since. OnSeptember 6 2021. The FBI
contact Dallas County detectivesand provided a series of
photographs. The FBI hadreceived the photographs as a
(06:53):
cyber tip. The photos depicted apartially clothed female in a
cage who they recognized asCassidy. The other photos
depicted Cassidy's body bound toa gantry crane commonly used for
deer processing and herevisceration and dismemberment.
Okay,stop right there. That's like
Jeffrey Dahmer serial killerstuff. We're not worried about
(07:17):
that. We're worried about whereGabby is. Right? That's crazy.
Now Gabby's just as much as avictim as Cassidy but my point
is, this is crazy serial killerstuff. There is no media
attention, very small mediaattention local media attention,
but we're talking about a deerevisceration. We're talking
about a partially nude femalethat's inside of a cage.
(07:43):
Right. And then on the same day,September 6, the Dallas County
detectives go back out to theproperty that Phelps was renting
and recognize items in thebackyard that coincided with the
FBI photos, the photos providedby the FBI. Then detectives
placed Phelps under arrest andobtained a search warrant. For
(08:03):
the next seven daysinvestigators processed the
entire crime scene and collectedphysical evidence including the
gantry device the cage itemsfrom a freezer that appeared to
be human flesh with a date onthem of July 24. skeletal
remains believed to be Cassidy'swere found scattered on nearby
(08:24):
property belonging to hergrandfather. Her deceased
grandfather Bill Rainwater. Alsorecovered was digital evidence
from electronic devicesincluding seven photos on Phelps
phone of Rainwater in apartially nude state being held
in a cage at his residence. Intotal, over 200 pieces of
(08:45):
evidence were recovered. Theremains found in the freezer
were confirmed by the crime labto be Cassidy Rainwater, and
digital evidence revealedmessages between James Phelps
and Timothy Norton, hisclassmate and childhood friend
planning her murderthat, it's it's it's crazy. I
mean, it's crazy when you hearall those specifics.
(09:08):
Then, on September 20th, TimothyNorton was interviewed by FBI
agents, Norton confessed to themurders, the murder of Cassidy
Rainwater, he said he heldCassidy's legs down, while
Phelps strangled her and placeda bag over her head. After
Cassidy was deceased, he andPhelps took a short break before
carrying her body outside.
Norton stated that Phelps boundher to the gantry crane and
(09:31):
began evisceration anddismemberment of her body. He
and Phelps then carried her bodyback into the house and placed
her in the bathtub. Wow.
Right Jeffrey Dahmer stuff. Itis Jeffrey Dahmer stuff.
Absolutely.
Then on October 4, the home thatPhelps was renting, burned to
(09:55):
the ground. So while Phelps andNorton are in jail, their house
mysteriously burns to theground. It's not mysterious. It
wasn't. It was determined to bearson. They found homemade bombs
and trip wires on the property.
And it was determined on October15, it was confirmed to be
arson. So that means there'sanother accomplice out there, at
(10:18):
least one other right, which soit even gets weirder now a
little incidental detail. Theaddress is linked to another sex
offender, according to theDallas County sex offender list,
right? So this property has somevery dark history. November 17,
so we're talking on more than amonth later, nearly four months
(10:39):
after Cassidy Rainwater wentmissing, the charges against
Phelps and Norton are upgradedto first degree murder,
kidnapping and abandonment of acorpse. A preliminary hearing is
scheduled for June 3 2022. Andno official motive in their
killing has been disclosed.
(11:00):
So a lot of interesting things,right. Most of you guys probably
haven't heard about it. And asyou were hearing the details,
it's a fascinating story, not acomplicated story, other than
maybe at this point, motive. Andwhen we talk about motive, you
know, if you're ever sitting ona jury in a criminal trial, and
I and I encourage you to do it,if you get that little thing in
(11:21):
the mail that says you got toshow up for court, because a lot
of people like to use excuses toget out of it. But most juries
want to hear why did it happen?
They have a hard time convictingpeople if they don't if they
cannot answer the question ofwhy did this happen? And what's
interesting else too, is whathappened to Cassidy Rainwater's
mother.
Right? This is so fascinating.
So her mother, this is just itjust this story just gets
(11:45):
weirder and weirder as you godown this rabbit hole. So this
is what we know about Cassidy.
She had a friendly relationshipwith her high school boyfriend.
They had had a son together. SoI did the math. She had the son
when she was 17 years old. Hehad been adopted by a family and
was being raised by thoseparents. As she there is it's
(12:09):
also very unclear I couldn'tfind. I couldn't find out if she
has other children. Yeah, it waskind of odd. I dug and dug and
dug and nothing ever wasconfirmed whether or not she had
children. But it seems as thoughshe did have other children. But
she did not have custody ofthose children right when she
went missing. So she and theboyfriend were friendly. They
(12:30):
talked every so often, maybeonce a year or so he said, and
the last time he talked to her,she was really down and out. He
believed that she was homeless.
And he was trying to convinceher to come back and he was
going to you know, help her outin any little way he could. And
that was the last time he talkedto her. But here's the odd
coincidence, Cassidy's mom,Tracy, Wahwassuck went missing
(12:51):
on April 13 2007. Andinvestigators found her bones a
year later scattered near afield around a field near
Lebanon, Missouri. Yep, samearea, right. Cassidy was killed.
And no cause of death has everbeen released on her case. And
(13:11):
no one has ever been arrested.
Wow.
So this is what's just so uniqueand crazy. There's so many like
you said rabbit holes, right.
And, you know, like I mentionedbefore a media chooses which
cases they want to highlight andeverybody in their brother was
kind of paying attention to theGabby thing. And really, at the
(13:32):
end of the day with Gabby'ssituation, that's not a very
difficult case. I mean, I thinkeverybody that was paying
attention to that was probablylike, okay, it's the fiancee,
right? Very easy to kind offigure out and then when you saw
footage of the domesticsituation that the police
officer captured, it's it kindof all came together pretty
quickly. But the world wasfascinated. Flip over to
(13:53):
Cassidy. We're talking aboutCassidy's body parts being cut
off her skin and meat in thefreezer labeled and the weird
coincidence of her mother. Andso there's links there right.
Her mother was linked to thatproperty, I think at one point.
(14:13):
And it's interesting too whenyou look at the two people so
it's great for you guys goinginto the
way Chris may I interject?
Cassidy was only 33 years old,right? And she was also a very
attractive young woman. Right?
Beautiful. Absolutely.
Like Gabby, right, like Gabby.
So it's interesting when youhave two people, which is great.
(14:34):
I loved it when I investigatedhomicides where I had two
possible suspects, right?
Because the number one thing youwant to do is try to figure out
who was the weakest link and goafter that person first.
Obviously Norton was the weakestlink. So he kind of painted the
picture of every day, buthe did but he also admitted that
he and Phelps used to troll forvictims at the nearby Walmart
(14:57):
and and online, believe itor not, you guys, believe it or
not, most people want to confessthey want to tell you and Norton
not only told you what happened,but one step further and talked
about how they like to troll forpeople.
(15:22):
It's crazy when people confess,and you're thinking, Why the
hell did you do? What did he dothat? Or why the hell do they
confess? Believe it or not, theywant to tell the story. They
absolutely do. So they wentafter Norton, and he painted the
picture. Right? He painted thepicture. He gave very specifics.
When they interviewed Phelps thefirst time because they went and
talked to him before there wasany arrests. And Phelps does the
(15:45):
classic thing of Oh, yeah, shewas here. So bam, it places her
there at the property. But hedoes the old trick of saying, I
was just trying to help her. Sohe's trying to distance himself
and act like the good guy, youknow, I was she was down on a
luck, I gave her a place to stayin in the middle of the night
(16:07):
she left. And that's the lasttime I saw. So those are kind of
classic things that you hearfrom people, they try to
distance themselves, they try tomake themselves a good guy. So
not to suspicion. And so thoseare the things as investigators
we look at, but there's nothingbetter when you know that you
have two people. And in theCassidy Rainwater case, you have
(16:27):
three, because somebody got aphone call from somebody that
said, Oh, shit, they're in jail,you better burned down the
property, which is exactly whatthey did. And so it just, it
just it's a dynamic dynamic caseand a really sad case. Because,
you know, it's, it's sad, andwhen you look when I'm flipping
back and forth, but when youlook at the Gabby case, one of
the things that was really,really sad to me, in that case,
(16:49):
was the video footage that yousaw of her crying and sitting
there in the police car. And ifyou go back and you look at her
face, she is so scared. And sheis so sad that when I looked at
it, I just had so much Oh, man,I just felt so bad for her. And
it was you know, that theofficers made a decision to do
what they did that night and andyou know, not lock him up, not
(17:11):
lock her up and, and whateverwhich led eventually to her
death. But you go and you lookat Cassidy and you think man,
she was suffocated. She was cutup. She was put in a freezer.
That's sad, too. Right? That'sreally sad, and to hear the
dynamics of both those cases andwho gets the media attention and
(17:32):
who doesn't get the mediaattention. And what's the
backstory of Cassidy there isn'ta whole heck of a lot of
backstory with Cassidy or reallyGabby, right, like you're seeing
with,with Cassidy, we don't even
know, why was she down and outthat there is no mention of
drugs? Right, right. Yeah. Imean, there's no, there's not
really any mention of mentalillness. There's just this
(17:52):
there's huge swaths of ambiguityin this case. Absolutely. As far
as what we can find in the mediaand what's been reported by law
enforcement.
you know, and and as this casestarted to pick up a little bit
of attention, you had a lot ofyour armchair detectives and
your crime sleuths people kindof giving information and doing
(18:12):
that type of stuff. And it wasinteresting, because the
sheriff, you know, made aresponse to, you know, stop with
the, what did he say the cheesepuff, eatting? Cheese Puff,
eatting sitting on the couchtrying to be a detective, which
I think it's just a horrible,horrible comment to make. And he
didn't want all of those typesof crimes sleuths and people
(18:33):
given their theories. But what'sinteresting about people that
give their theories or givetheir two cents about things, in
the midst of all of thosetheories, there's some truth
that lies in it, you'll get somegood information.
Right on Reddit, there wereactually a few people, the the
people that the sheriff wasresponding to, they had posted
on social media, that when thedeputies kicked in Phelps' door
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the following morning, theyallegedly found him eating a
sandwich with human remains. Andhe laughed and told
investigators that he had servedhuman ribs to an unsuspecting
neighbor a few days prior. So itwas these kinds of things that
the sheriff was responding to.
Right. And yet what the sheriffsaid was so demeaning right to
the people who had goodintentions and maybe weren't
(19:20):
going that far and like yousaid, was that true? I don't
know the sheriff said it wasn'tbut they also haven't really
haven't really revealed anyinformation in the case. So but
basically what he said is it'snot a good idea to the sheriff
Sheriff Scott Rice said, it'snot a good idea to listen to a
crime reporter or a blogger thatis sitting in their apartment,
(19:42):
or their mommy and daddy'sbasement eating great value
cheese puffs and drinking boxwine with grand intentions of
being a social media superstar.
See and that's that I disagreewith completely right when
you're trying to solve thingsand people like to use that
outlet to a degree where theyknow information, but they don't
(20:05):
really want to tell them theirname. So they'll send off, you
know, some good pieces ofinformation, maybe somebody that
knew Cassady, you know, thatjust didn't want to get
involved, but thought it mightbe important. First of all, you
just can't treat people likethat. And secondly, you have to
keep in mind that everybody issomebody's daughter, somebody's
sister, somebody's wife,somebody's mother, and they need
(20:27):
to be treated accordingly. It'scrazy in this world. And I
talked about a little bit withthe kids that I'm teaching in
high school about how manymissing African American women
there are, that nobody evenknows about, like, we do not hit
on that. And it's really, reallysad, because I've just gone to
so many homes, and it doesn'tmatter if I am in a good
(20:50):
neighborhood, a richneighborhood, the pain is real,
and very evenly distributed whenyou go and you tell someone that
their loved one has been killed.
And so trying to say that, thatvictims should be investigated
because of this race, or thatrace. And the other ones are
just kind of pushed under thetable, because the difference
here is nobody reported. Cassidygone for a while, right. And
(21:15):
Gabby's mother reported itpretty quickly. But the thing
is, is that adults are allowedto go away, and they don't need
to tell anybody. And thatdoesn't mean that there's harm
that there was anything,anything happened to them, they
could just be gone, gone away,right. But the media decided,
Oh, this is going to besomething with Gabby, this is
going to be something and thenthey decided no, this isn't
(21:37):
going to be that big of a deal.
And Cassidy when you look at andyou compare the two cases, the
pain is real on both sides. Butwhat an injustice, it is, when
you're following one case, andyou're forgetting about another.
And of course, you can't coverevery single case, but there is
absolutely just a differentvalue that we put on on status
(22:02):
and race and all those things.
And that's something that I'vetried to avoid. And I'm glad
that I didn't take thatdetectives advice in my career,
because I don't care. The painis real, when you tell someone
that their loved one is dead,and in class and race and, and
all of that stuff kind of goesout the window when you see the
life go out of somebody's eyes,because you've just given them
(22:24):
the worst news that they've had,you know, their whole life. So
it will be interesting. Boththose guys, you know, Phelps and
Norton are in jail. But one ofthe things that is going to be
that people are going to want toknow and I want to know is what
was the motive? And that's onthe investigators, right? It
isn't one of those deals whereOkay, well, we've locked up a
couple people. And nobody reallycares about Cassidy because only
(22:47):
a couple people, you know,reported her missing and only
one person talked on the news.
You know, we our job is over.
You can't have that kind ofattitude. Because if you look at
the Gabby's case, hell, theywere interviewing her neighbors,
the media was on the parent'slawn, they were interviewing
everybody, you know, it's sofunny how they dig up people, I
went to school with her when Iwas seven, right, they do all of
(23:08):
this background to try to painta picture. And none of that is
being painted with Cassidy. So Ithink that's an injustice, I
think that they need to do that.
They need to show that Cassidywas, you know, a human being and
a person and, and this is herlife story. And this is what
she's about. And she's got kidsand family and people that did
(23:30):
care about her. And it's aninjustice to think they didn't
care because they didn't get themedia attention that another
case did. And that's really kindof the point with all of this.
So if we can shed some light,but also what's fascinating to
me is Chris, why are the do youthink the detectives or the FBI
are investigating otherpotential or possible victims of
(23:51):
Norton and Phelps becausesomebody doesn't like you've
taught me a killer doesn'timmediately graduate to that
kind of violent extreme, youknow, caging a woman and
torturing her and killing herand processing her like deer and
then wrapping her meat for andalso, you know, they don't know
(24:13):
what was the meat being sold onthe dark web there were rumors
that well, whyare you freezing it? You know,
it could be a trophy it could beto sell it. But what's
interesting in the cases thatI've investigated, and most most
homicides happen very quickly,they happen very quickly right
an argument pull a gun, bam,shoot, like they happen very
quickly. A small portion ofhomicides across the country.
(24:35):
They're planned. This one wasplanned. It may have been a
short plan, but it was plannedenough to say hey, come over
here. Hey, I want you to put thebag over her head. It wasn't
like we're in this majorargument was planned to put her
in the cage like you don't justthink of that. Right? It's
planned with texting.
They were texting each otherplanning it right. So
and that's a little bitdifferent than in You're right.
(24:57):
You're absolutely right. Theydidn't wake up they didn't wake
up as you know, they weren'tperfect citizens. And then they
woke up that day and decided todo what they did to Cassidy.
They've absolutely had tograduate that. And so that begs
the question of, are there othervictims? Are there other victims
out there? Did they look at thewhole entire land? Right? It
begs that question of, are theytaking it? Are they taking it
(25:19):
further? And the problem with itis, is if there's not a lot of
media hype, and you don't havesomebody call and go, Hey, I
lost my loved one or you don'thave a victim's family going,
well, this person went missing,then probably not. They're not
getting out. So that's howpeople killers can get away with
it. Because theykill somebody who doesn't. Who
(25:39):
doesn't have people in theirlife that care about them enough
to report them missing and topressure law enforcement to find
answers? Is that the case?
absolutely. Absolutely. That'sit. I mean, they, they tend to
Absolutely,kill people that that they have
learned that people won't miss.
(26:00):
And they don't care about, youknow, Gabby's mother and father,
they cared and loved her, youknow, and they were on top of
it. Nobody even reported it forat least a month, but possibly
six weeks. And that's thedifference. Can you imagine if
you go missing, you know, who isgoing to call the police
immediately? Do you have peoplein your life that are go Oh, my
God, I haven't heard from call.
I mean, I would. I did it whenyou were gone. Colleen was gone
(26:22):
on a weekend thing. I couldn'tget ahold of her. I literally
called her circle of people,because I'm like, This is not
right. Where the hell is she at?
She told me but I forgot. Butwhat I'm saying is, if you think
that's right, I went to a selfsustainable village, and it was
off the grid. Completely off thegrid and not on internet, which
is unusual. In this day and age,and you. And I got back 48 hours
(26:46):
later, and I had all thesetexts, and people worried about
me because of you, Chris. AndI know, right? I put out a
frickin Amber Alert. Butanyways, um, but it just goes to
show you, you know, if you gomissing, is there going to be
anybody in your world that'sgoing to call the police. And
again, you can call the police.
And I could have said, Hey,Colleen, I have not heard from
Colleen. And they'd go, well,she is an adult, she's allowed
(27:10):
to go wherever she wants, youknow, what would make them
investigate it? As opposed tojust saying, You know what,
she's an adult? Well, I would belike, calling all the time we
know something's not right,something's off. Nobody did
that. Nobody did that withCassidy. So, you know, we, you
know, on this podcast, we reallyjust want to, you know, just
just give everybody the right tohave their voices heard. And
(27:36):
unfortunately, when we'retalking about cold cases, the
victims are gone, and probablydead. But the families that
Dateline isn't knocking on theirdoor to sit in their living room
and talk about we really want tohighlight the cases that are
open that don't get theattention because believe it or
not, these web sleuths and thesearmchair detectives, which I
(27:57):
would never call, I'm all aboutcall me with anything, because
I'll track it down. Because it'scold for a reason, right? I
mean, they go cold. So I'll takeany information you can give me
and try to warm it up a littlebit. So that's
not only but not only that,Chris, more and more cases are
being solved with the help.
Absolutely. We've kind of got toget over that whole hobby
(28:18):
detective. Yes. Right. And itgives you a different
perspective, right? Like I'm inthe midst of it, I'm living it,
breathing it, seeing it,interviewing people
investigating it. And thensomebody who's on the outside
that isn't emotionally attached,is looking at something and man,
it's crazy, what you can seewhen you're not emotionally
attached. And somebody says,Hey, did you think of this, you
(28:39):
know, we tried to do that whenwe were working cases, like my
partner if she wasn't, or hewasn't working with me 24/7 And
he came in refreshed and waslooking at me interviewing
somebody, you know, and sendingme a text, ask him this, because
you just get so enmeshed in ityou can't see outside and tired
and tired and can't see what'soutside your bubble. So I'm
(28:59):
hoping that they and probablywhat will happen in this case is
they'll take a plea, I'll bevery, very surprised if this
goes to trial and a pleaagreement as simple as the
prosecutor's office saying,Look, we're gonna give you you
know, we'll give you this amountof years if you plead guilty, or
even go to trial and we cantriple the years. I mean, those
(29:21):
are how pretty much pleaagreement work and so you know,
probably Norton will probablytake a plea he may have already
I don't know but and then Phelpsmight be lying I'll roll the
dice you know, I'll never knowso it a bit will be interesting.
Hopefully we can figure out thespecifics of it because people
want to know, you know, whenpeople can learn from it. You
can learn from it what mistakesyou know, did she make what what
(29:41):
things can can you kind ofcompare in your life and in you
know, but you have to rememberthat victims are victims, you
know, and you can't judge basedon and murder is such a violent,
horrific act. How could anybodydeserve that but just because of
their lifestyle, and you'vetaught me so many times over
Over and over, Chris, you say tome, when you really get to know
(30:01):
somebody, and you get to knowtheir backstory, no matter what
the even even the killers thatyou've, that you
Oh, I mean, there's been verymany, there have not been very
many killers that I'veinterviewed, that I didn't, you
know, when the interview wasover, and the confession was
over, and the case was closed,and I took him to jail and all
(30:23):
that stuff that I didn't lookback and go, Yeah, I can kind of
see, I can kind of see why thishappened. Because it is a very,
very thin line between thepeople who murder that step over
the line and murder and thepeople that are just so close to
that line and just didn't step.
You know, it's it's it's such athin line I've interviewed. I've
interviewed good people thathave murdered people.
(30:44):
Absolutely. They didn't wake upthat day thinking they were
going to do that now. Phelps andNorton, they woke up that day,
thinking they were going to doit, right. That's a different
type of killer. That's adifferent type.
That's a serial, that's a serialkiller.
So hopefully, that you know,people will come forward with
them, because I would imagine Iwould bet my paycheck, which
(31:05):
isn't very much but I'd stillbet my paycheck that there's
other victims out there. But youknow, nobody, nobody says
anything.
Would you say we don't know themotive, although we do a little
bit because of Norton said theywere trolling for victims,
potential victims, and that sortof tells you that they were
doing this, they were careerkillers or at least thinking in
(31:27):
that way.
may have found out about it,too, and said, you know, who
knows what she said? Or whathappened? You know, maybe she
found out some information andwas gonna go, you know, you
don't know, but unfortunately,hopefully, if they can't answer
it, the jury doesn't have tohave that piece in order to find
them guilty. So stay tuned tothat. So thanks, everybody, for
(31:49):
listening. And if you have anycomments or anything, please
email us atmurderwithmannina@gmail.com.
Again, thanks for listeningguys. Stay safe and stay alert
so you can be a good detectivein your own life.
(32:11):
If you have a cold case you'dlike Chris to review submit it
through our website at murderwith mannina.com and follow us
on Instagram and Facebook atmurder with mannina and Twitter
at murder W mannina. We'll beback next week with a brand new
episode of murder with mannina.
People just want to know whatit's like to be me. How does it
feel to see a dead body? Tell afamily their loved one has been
murdered, talk to a rape victim,catch a killer and get them to
confess. Hold on tight, myfriends. Get ready for the
journey. And welcome to Murderwith Mannina. Welcome to murder
(00:25):
with Mannina Colleen, how areyou?
I'm great, because I just gotback from Spring skiing in
Mammoth.
Wow, that's nice. I was onspring break in Indianapolis and
the weather was shitty everyday. But one day.
Oh, I hate to tell you this, butit was 60 degrees up in the
mountains.
Colleen likes to brag a lot. Butyou guys will get used to that.
Shitty weather.
I'm so sorry for you, Chris.
(00:47):
Anyways, we're gonna jump rightinto this episode, because it's
an interesting episode on on alot of different fronts. But as
I go through my career, and I'mtalking about my cases and my
experiences, and trying to getyou guys to get inside of my
mind to know what it's actuallylike, I remember a veteran
detective telling me some advicewhen I was really young. And
(01:07):
that advice was you have toremember that most victims
aren't true victims, because ifthey were, you wouldn't be able
to do the job. And I thought fora second, and I'm young. And I
thought that seems just so weirdto me. Right? Like true victims.
When you think of true victims,a lot of people like to say
children, and they areabsolutely true victims. But I'm
really kind of glad that I neverkept that mind frame. Because
(01:30):
each case that I work in eachcall that I went on, there was a
victim, right, or the policewouldn't have come. And so I
didn't I just didn't agree withthat. Because I just felt like
everyone, you know, whateverlifestyle you have, and people
will agree. And people have saidthis to me for years and years
and years, you kind of live anddie by the lifestyle that you
have. Right? And that makessense, right? If you're into
(01:51):
crime, and you're into drugs,and you're doing all that stuff,
it's a dangerous profession,right. And a lot of people get
murdered. But I'm just kind ofglad that I thought outside of
the box. And just remember thatat the end of the day victims
are victims, and everyone's kindof doing the best that they can
at that time in their life. Andso I try to keep that in mind.
But what's interesting is we'rekind of going through these
(02:11):
cases, and we're going to betalking a lot about my cases and
then cold cases. One of thecases that Colleen and I came
across and this is a reallyinteresting case is her name.
The victim's name was CassidyRainwater. Okay. And when you
look at this case, you're gonnanotice a few things. But the one
thing that I noticed right offthe bat, in this case is
gruesome. It's twisty. It's didthis really happen? It's like
(02:36):
one of those where you go, Whoa,right. And when you think of
cases that go, Whoa, a lot oftimes, they'll make the news.
Right. And what's interestingabout this case, is it happened
around the same time is GabbyPetito's case. Right? So we're
looking July August 2021. SoCassidy Rainwater goes missing,
(02:56):
I think at the end of July and2021. And nobody even reports
her to the authorities, I thinkfor almost a month later. And
this happens, I think, correctme if I'm wrong, Colleen,
Missouri, right. It wasMissouri. Yeah. Right. Okay. And
we Dallas County, okay. Andwe've got Gabby Petito over on
the other side of the country.
She goes missing, right. Andthere's two different stories
(03:17):
here, you've got Gabby, who'sbeautiful, young, attractive.
You know, with her fiance, theylook like the perfect couple,
they're going to go across thecountry, and they're going to
take pictures, and the wholeworld gets to see how great
their life is. And then all of asudden, you see some videos of
them being on a domesticsituation, and the whole world
(03:38):
is watching because Gabby goesmissing on the other side of the
country. Cassidy goes missing.
Nobody cares about it. Gabby,everybody cares about. So
there's just this big kind ofdifference of which cases does
the media pick? And that's agood question, right? Because at
(03:59):
the end of the day, when youlook at these two cases, Cassidy
Rainwater's got more of the OHMY GOD effect. Gabby really
doesn't. Right, right, Gabbyreally doesn't. So we're gonna
kind of take you through. And Ijust think it's kind of an
intriguing thing. But what thepoint I want to make is that
regardless of class, or race, orwhere you come from, or you
(04:22):
know, all of those socialstatus, all of those things,
I've always just kind ofinvestigated cases the same that
everybody needs to have theircase investigated and answers
for the family. If you're thefamily that lives in suburbia
where Dateline visits a lot, oryou're a case in, you know, a
lower economic neighborhood.
They deserve that as much soI've kind of always taken that
(04:44):
attitude. So when you look atthese two cases, that kind of
happened at the same time, um,you will see a stark, you know,
difference in the way that themedia you don't even know you
didn't even know about CassidyRainwater. And I'd be really
interested just here if any ofour listeners even knew Who
Cassidy Rainwater was. GabbyPetito? Probably unless you were
living under a rock. So,Cassidy's situation. And Colleen
(05:05):
is going to kind of go throughthe timeline. But to start it
off, she goes missing late inJuly. It's not reported by
anybody until a month later. Andthen a lot of twists. I'm
talking about body parts infreezers and things to that
degree. So Colleen, if you wantto take us through the timeline,
let's talk about this case alittle bit.
(05:27):
Okay, I'll just briefly reviewthe timeline, and then you can
talk to it and we can get moreinto details. So Cassidy
Rainwater was last seen on July25 2021. She was reported
missing by a family member amonth later on August 25 2021.
That's crazy. If you look atGabby Petito. Mom was getting
(05:48):
communication from her everyday. A couple days went by, she
started to get a little bitnervous, kind of talked herself
out of it. And as days went by,she got more nervous and
reported itimmediately, immediately. And
and by the way, the sheriff onthis case, said it was six weeks
before a family member reportedher missing but when I looked at
the dates that didn't add up,yeah, actually August 25. So
(06:11):
Dallas County authoritiesdetermined that Phelps this
James Phelps was the last personto have been in contact with
Cassidy. So they go to a housethat he's renting in Lebanon,
Missouri, and Phelps tells themhe was letting Cassidy stay in
his loft while she got back onher feet. And he claimed that a
(06:32):
month prior Cassidy met a car atthe end of his driveway in the
middle of the night and left hisproperty on her own accord and
he hadn't seen her since. OnSeptember 6 2021. The FBI
contact Dallas County detectivesand provided a series of
photographs. The FBI hadreceived the photographs as a
(06:53):
cyber tip. The photos depicted apartially clothed female in a
cage who they recognized asCassidy. The other photos
depicted Cassidy's body bound toa gantry crane commonly used for
deer processing and herevisceration and dismemberment.
Okay,stop right there. That's like
Jeffrey Dahmer serial killerstuff. We're not worried about
(07:17):
that. We're worried about whereGabby is. Right? That's crazy.
Now Gabby's just as much as avictim as Cassidy but my point
is, this is crazy serial killerstuff. There is no media
attention, very small mediaattention local media attention,
but we're talking about a deerevisceration. We're talking
about a partially nude femalethat's inside of a cage.
(07:43):
Right. And then on the same day,September 6, the Dallas County
detectives go back out to theproperty that Phelps was renting
and recognize items in thebackyard that coincided with the
FBI photos, the photos providedby the FBI. Then detectives
placed Phelps under arrest andobtained a search warrant. For
(08:03):
the next seven daysinvestigators processed the
entire crime scene and collectedphysical evidence including the
gantry device the cage itemsfrom a freezer that appeared to
be human flesh with a date onthem of July 24. skeletal
remains believed to be Cassidy'swere found scattered on nearby
(08:24):
property belonging to hergrandfather. Her deceased
grandfather Bill Rainwater. Alsorecovered was digital evidence
from electronic devicesincluding seven photos on Phelps
phone of Rainwater in apartially nude state being held
in a cage at his residence. Intotal, over 200 pieces of
(08:45):
evidence were recovered. Theremains found in the freezer
were confirmed by the crime labto be Cassidy Rainwater, and
digital evidence revealedmessages between James Phelps
and Timothy Norton, hisclassmate and childhood friend
planning her murderthat, it's it's it's crazy. I
mean, it's crazy when you hearall those specifics.
(09:08):
Then, on September 20th, TimothyNorton was interviewed by FBI
agents, Norton confessed to themurders, the murder of Cassidy
Rainwater, he said he heldCassidy's legs down, while
Phelps strangled her and placeda bag over her head. After
Cassidy was deceased, he andPhelps took a short break before
carrying her body outside.
Norton stated that Phelps boundher to the gantry crane and
(09:31):
began evisceration anddismemberment of her body. He
and Phelps then carried her bodyback into the house and placed
her in the bathtub. Wow.
Right Jeffrey Dahmer stuff. Itis Jeffrey Dahmer stuff.
Absolutely.
Then on October 4, the home thatPhelps was renting, burned to
(09:55):
the ground. So while Phelps andNorton are in jail, their house
mysteriously burns to theground. It's not mysterious. It
wasn't. It was determined to bearson. They found homemade bombs
and trip wires on the property.
And it was determined on October15, it was confirmed to be
arson. So that means there'sanother accomplice out there, at
(10:18):
least one other right, which soit even gets weirder now a
little incidental detail. Theaddress is linked to another sex
offender, according to theDallas County sex offender list,
right? So this property has somevery dark history. November 17,
so we're talking on more than amonth later, nearly four months
(10:39):
after Cassidy Rainwater wentmissing, the charges against
Phelps and Norton are upgradedto first degree murder,
kidnapping and abandonment of acorpse. A preliminary hearing is
scheduled for June 3 2022. Andno official motive in their
killing has been disclosed.
(11:00):
So a lot of interesting things,right. Most of you guys probably
haven't heard about it. And asyou were hearing the details,
it's a fascinating story, not acomplicated story, other than
maybe at this point, motive. Andwhen we talk about motive, you
know, if you're ever sitting ona jury in a criminal trial, and
I and I encourage you to do it,if you get that little thing in
(11:21):
the mail that says you got toshow up for court, because a lot
of people like to use excuses toget out of it. But most juries
want to hear why did it happen?
They have a hard time convictingpeople if they don't if they
cannot answer the question ofwhy did this happen? And what's
interesting else too, is whathappened to Cassidy Rainwater's
mother.
Right? This is so fascinating.
So her mother, this is just itjust this story just gets
(11:45):
weirder and weirder as you godown this rabbit hole. So this
is what we know about Cassidy.
She had a friendly relationshipwith her high school boyfriend.
They had had a son together. SoI did the math. She had the son
when she was 17 years old. Hehad been adopted by a family and
was being raised by thoseparents. As she there is it's
(12:09):
also very unclear I couldn'tfind. I couldn't find out if she
has other children. Yeah, it waskind of odd. I dug and dug and
dug and nothing ever wasconfirmed whether or not she had
children. But it seems as thoughshe did have other children. But
she did not have custody ofthose children right when she
went missing. So she and theboyfriend were friendly. They
(12:30):
talked every so often, maybeonce a year or so he said, and
the last time he talked to her,she was really down and out. He
believed that she was homeless.
And he was trying to convinceher to come back and he was
going to you know, help her outin any little way he could. And
that was the last time he talkedto her. But here's the odd
coincidence, Cassidy's mom,Tracy, Wahwassuck went missing
(12:51):
on April 13 2007. Andinvestigators found her bones a
year later scattered near afield around a field near
Lebanon, Missouri. Yep, samearea, right. Cassidy was killed.
And no cause of death has everbeen released on her case. And
(13:11):
no one has ever been arrested.
Wow.
So this is what's just so uniqueand crazy. There's so many like
you said rabbit holes, right.
And, you know, like I mentionedbefore a media chooses which
cases they want to highlight andeverybody in their brother was
kind of paying attention to theGabby thing. And really, at the
(13:32):
end of the day with Gabby'ssituation, that's not a very
difficult case. I mean, I thinkeverybody that was paying
attention to that was probablylike, okay, it's the fiancee,
right? Very easy to kind offigure out and then when you saw
footage of the domesticsituation that the police
officer captured, it's it kindof all came together pretty
quickly. But the world wasfascinated. Flip over to
(13:53):
Cassidy. We're talking aboutCassidy's body parts being cut
off her skin and meat in thefreezer labeled and the weird
coincidence of her mother. Andso there's links there right.
Her mother was linked to thatproperty, I think at one point.
(14:13):
And it's interesting too whenyou look at the two people so
it's great for you guys goinginto the
way Chris may I interject?
Cassidy was only 33 years old,right? And she was also a very
attractive young woman. Right?
Beautiful. Absolutely.
Like Gabby, right, like Gabby.
So it's interesting when youhave two people, which is great.
(14:34):
I loved it when I investigatedhomicides where I had two
possible suspects, right?
Because the number one thing youwant to do is try to figure out
who was the weakest link and goafter that person first.
Obviously Norton was the weakestlink. So he kind of painted the
picture of every day, buthe did but he also admitted that
he and Phelps used to troll forvictims at the nearby Walmart
(14:57):
and and online, believe itor not, you guys, believe it or
not, most people want to confessthey want to tell you and Norton
not only told you what happened,but one step further and talked
about how they like to troll forpeople.
(15:22):
It's crazy when people confess,and you're thinking, Why the
hell did you do? What did he dothat? Or why the hell do they
confess? Believe it or not, theywant to tell the story. They
absolutely do. So they wentafter Norton, and he painted the
picture. Right? He painted thepicture. He gave very specifics.
When they interviewed Phelps thefirst time because they went and
talked to him before there wasany arrests. And Phelps does the
(15:45):
classic thing of Oh, yeah, shewas here. So bam, it places her
there at the property. But hedoes the old trick of saying, I
was just trying to help her. Sohe's trying to distance himself
and act like the good guy, youknow, I was she was down on a
luck, I gave her a place to stayin in the middle of the night
(16:07):
she left. And that's the lasttime I saw. So those are kind of
classic things that you hearfrom people, they try to
distance themselves, they try tomake themselves a good guy. So
not to suspicion. And so thoseare the things as investigators
we look at, but there's nothingbetter when you know that you
have two people. And in theCassidy Rainwater case, you have
(16:27):
three, because somebody got aphone call from somebody that
said, Oh, shit, they're in jail,you better burned down the
property, which is exactly whatthey did. And so it just, it
just it's a dynamic dynamic caseand a really sad case. Because,
you know, it's, it's sad, andwhen you look when I'm flipping
back and forth, but when youlook at the Gabby case, one of
the things that was really,really sad to me, in that case,
(16:49):
was the video footage that yousaw of her crying and sitting
there in the police car. And ifyou go back and you look at her
face, she is so scared. And sheis so sad that when I looked at
it, I just had so much Oh, man,I just felt so bad for her. And
it was you know, that theofficers made a decision to do
what they did that night and andyou know, not lock him up, not
(17:11):
lock her up and, and whateverwhich led eventually to her
death. But you go and you lookat Cassidy and you think man,
she was suffocated. She was cutup. She was put in a freezer.
That's sad, too. Right? That'sreally sad, and to hear the
dynamics of both those cases andwho gets the media attention and
(17:32):
who doesn't get the mediaattention. And what's the
backstory of Cassidy there isn'ta whole heck of a lot of
backstory with Cassidy or reallyGabby, right, like you're seeing
with,with Cassidy, we don't even
know, why was she down and outthat there is no mention of
drugs? Right, right. Yeah. Imean, there's no, there's not
really any mention of mentalillness. There's just this
(17:52):
there's huge swaths of ambiguityin this case. Absolutely. As far
as what we can find in the mediaand what's been reported by law
enforcement.
you know, and and as this casestarted to pick up a little bit
of attention, you had a lot ofyour armchair detectives and
your crime sleuths people kindof giving information and doing
(18:12):
that type of stuff. And it wasinteresting, because the
sheriff, you know, made aresponse to, you know, stop with
the, what did he say the cheesepuff, eatting? Cheese Puff,
eatting sitting on the couchtrying to be a detective, which
I think it's just a horrible,horrible comment to make. And he
didn't want all of those typesof crimes sleuths and people
(18:33):
given their theories. But what'sinteresting about people that
give their theories or givetheir two cents about things, in
the midst of all of thosetheories, there's some truth
that lies in it, you'll get somegood information.
Right on Reddit, there wereactually a few people, the the
people that the sheriff wasresponding to, they had posted
on social media, that when thedeputies kicked in Phelps' door
(18:57):
the following morning, theyallegedly found him eating a
sandwich with human remains. Andhe laughed and told
investigators that he had servedhuman ribs to an unsuspecting
neighbor a few days prior. So itwas these kinds of things that
the sheriff was responding to.
Right. And yet what the sheriffsaid was so demeaning right to
the people who had goodintentions and maybe weren't
(19:20):
going that far and like yousaid, was that true? I don't
know the sheriff said it wasn'tbut they also haven't really
haven't really revealed anyinformation in the case. So but
basically what he said is it'snot a good idea to the sheriff
Sheriff Scott Rice said, it'snot a good idea to listen to a
crime reporter or a blogger thatis sitting in their apartment,
(19:42):
or their mommy and daddy'sbasement eating great value
cheese puffs and drinking boxwine with grand intentions of
being a social media superstar.
See and that's that I disagreewith completely right when
you're trying to solve thingsand people like to use that
outlet to a degree where theyknow information, but they don't
(20:05):
really want to tell them theirname. So they'll send off, you
know, some good pieces ofinformation, maybe somebody that
knew Cassady, you know, thatjust didn't want to get
involved, but thought it mightbe important. First of all, you
just can't treat people likethat. And secondly, you have to
keep in mind that everybody issomebody's daughter, somebody's
sister, somebody's wife,somebody's mother, and they need
(20:27):
to be treated accordingly. It'scrazy in this world. And I
talked about a little bit withthe kids that I'm teaching in
high school about how manymissing African American women
there are, that nobody evenknows about, like, we do not hit
on that. And it's really, reallysad, because I've just gone to
so many homes, and it doesn'tmatter if I am in a good
(20:50):
neighborhood, a richneighborhood, the pain is real,
and very evenly distributed whenyou go and you tell someone that
their loved one has been killed.
And so trying to say that, thatvictims should be investigated
because of this race, or thatrace. And the other ones are
just kind of pushed under thetable, because the difference
here is nobody reported. Cassidygone for a while, right. And
(21:15):
Gabby's mother reported itpretty quickly. But the thing
is, is that adults are allowedto go away, and they don't need
to tell anybody. And thatdoesn't mean that there's harm
that there was anything,anything happened to them, they
could just be gone, gone away,right. But the media decided,
Oh, this is going to besomething with Gabby, this is
going to be something and thenthey decided no, this isn't
(21:37):
going to be that big of a deal.
And Cassidy when you look at andyou compare the two cases, the
pain is real on both sides. Butwhat an injustice, it is, when
you're following one case, andyou're forgetting about another.
And of course, you can't coverevery single case, but there is
absolutely just a differentvalue that we put on on status
(22:02):
and race and all those things.
And that's something that I'vetried to avoid. And I'm glad
that I didn't take thatdetectives advice in my career,
because I don't care. The painis real, when you tell someone
that their loved one is dead,and in class and race and, and
all of that stuff kind of goesout the window when you see the
life go out of somebody's eyes,because you've just given them
(22:24):
the worst news that they've had,you know, their whole life. So
it will be interesting. Boththose guys, you know, Phelps and
Norton are in jail. But one ofthe things that is going to be
that people are going to want toknow and I want to know is what
was the motive? And that's onthe investigators, right? It
isn't one of those deals whereOkay, well, we've locked up a
couple people. And nobody reallycares about Cassidy because only
(22:47):
a couple people, you know,reported her missing and only
one person talked on the news.
You know, we our job is over.
You can't have that kind ofattitude. Because if you look at
the Gabby's case, hell, theywere interviewing her neighbors,
the media was on the parent'slawn, they were interviewing
everybody, you know, it's sofunny how they dig up people, I
went to school with her when Iwas seven, right, they do all of
(23:08):
this background to try to painta picture. And none of that is
being painted with Cassidy. So Ithink that's an injustice, I
think that they need to do that.
They need to show that Cassidywas, you know, a human being and
a person and, and this is herlife story. And this is what
she's about. And she's got kidsand family and people that did
(23:30):
care about her. And it's aninjustice to think they didn't
care because they didn't get themedia attention that another
case did. And that's really kindof the point with all of this.
So if we can shed some light,but also what's fascinating to
me is Chris, why are the do youthink the detectives or the FBI
are investigating otherpotential or possible victims of
(23:51):
Norton and Phelps becausesomebody doesn't like you've
taught me a killer doesn'timmediately graduate to that
kind of violent extreme, youknow, caging a woman and
torturing her and killing herand processing her like deer and
then wrapping her meat for andalso, you know, they don't know
(24:13):
what was the meat being sold onthe dark web there were rumors
that well, whyare you freezing it? You know,
it could be a trophy it could beto sell it. But what's
interesting in the cases thatI've investigated, and most most
homicides happen very quickly,they happen very quickly right
an argument pull a gun, bam,shoot, like they happen very
quickly. A small portion ofhomicides across the country.
(24:35):
They're planned. This one wasplanned. It may have been a
short plan, but it was plannedenough to say hey, come over
here. Hey, I want you to put thebag over her head. It wasn't
like we're in this majorargument was planned to put her
in the cage like you don't justthink of that. Right? It's
planned with texting.
They were texting each otherplanning it right. So
and that's a little bitdifferent than in You're right.
(24:57):
You're absolutely right. Theydidn't wake up they didn't wake
up as you know, they weren'tperfect citizens. And then they
woke up that day and decided todo what they did to Cassidy.
They've absolutely had tograduate that. And so that begs
the question of, are there othervictims? Are there other victims
out there? Did they look at thewhole entire land? Right? It
begs that question of, are theytaking it? Are they taking it
(25:19):
further? And the problem with itis, is if there's not a lot of
media hype, and you don't havesomebody call and go, Hey, I
lost my loved one or you don'thave a victim's family going,
well, this person went missing,then probably not. They're not
getting out. So that's howpeople killers can get away with
it. Because theykill somebody who doesn't. Who
(25:39):
doesn't have people in theirlife that care about them enough
to report them missing and topressure law enforcement to find
answers? Is that the case?
absolutely. Absolutely. That'sit. I mean, they, they tend to
Absolutely,kill people that that they have
learned that people won't miss.
(26:00):
And they don't care about, youknow, Gabby's mother and father,
they cared and loved her, youknow, and they were on top of
it. Nobody even reported it forat least a month, but possibly
six weeks. And that's thedifference. Can you imagine if
you go missing, you know, who isgoing to call the police
immediately? Do you have peoplein your life that are go Oh, my
God, I haven't heard from call.
I mean, I would. I did it whenyou were gone. Colleen was gone
(26:22):
on a weekend thing. I couldn'tget ahold of her. I literally
called her circle of people,because I'm like, This is not
right. Where the hell is she at?
She told me but I forgot. Butwhat I'm saying is, if you think
that's right, I went to a selfsustainable village, and it was
off the grid. Completely off thegrid and not on internet, which
is unusual. In this day and age,and you. And I got back 48 hours
(26:46):
later, and I had all thesetexts, and people worried about
me because of you, Chris. AndI know, right? I put out a
frickin Amber Alert. Butanyways, um, but it just goes to
show you, you know, if you gomissing, is there going to be
anybody in your world that'sgoing to call the police. And
again, you can call the police.
And I could have said, Hey,Colleen, I have not heard from
Colleen. And they'd go, well,she is an adult, she's allowed
(27:10):
to go wherever she wants, youknow, what would make them
investigate it? As opposed tojust saying, You know what,
she's an adult? Well, I would belike, calling all the time we
know something's not right,something's off. Nobody did
that. Nobody did that withCassidy. So, you know, we, you
know, on this podcast, we reallyjust want to, you know, just
just give everybody the right tohave their voices heard. And
(27:36):
unfortunately, when we'retalking about cold cases, the
victims are gone, and probablydead. But the families that
Dateline isn't knocking on theirdoor to sit in their living room
and talk about we really want tohighlight the cases that are
open that don't get theattention because believe it or
not, these web sleuths and thesearmchair detectives, which I
(27:57):
would never call, I'm all aboutcall me with anything, because
I'll track it down. Because it'scold for a reason, right? I
mean, they go cold. So I'll takeany information you can give me
and try to warm it up a littlebit. So that's
not only but not only that,Chris, more and more cases are
being solved with the help.
Absolutely. We've kind of got toget over that whole hobby
(28:18):
detective. Yes. Right. And itgives you a different
perspective, right? Like I'm inthe midst of it, I'm living it,
breathing it, seeing it,interviewing people
investigating it. And thensomebody who's on the outside
that isn't emotionally attached,is looking at something and man,
it's crazy, what you can seewhen you're not emotionally
attached. And somebody says,Hey, did you think of this, you
(28:39):
know, we tried to do that whenwe were working cases, like my
partner if she wasn't, or hewasn't working with me 24/7 And
he came in refreshed and waslooking at me interviewing
somebody, you know, and sendingme a text, ask him this, because
you just get so enmeshed in ityou can't see outside and tired
and tired and can't see what'soutside your bubble. So I'm
(28:59):
hoping that they and probablywhat will happen in this case is
they'll take a plea, I'll bevery, very surprised if this
goes to trial and a pleaagreement as simple as the
prosecutor's office saying,Look, we're gonna give you you
know, we'll give you this amountof years if you plead guilty, or
even go to trial and we cantriple the years. I mean, those
(29:21):
are how pretty much pleaagreement work and so you know,
probably Norton will probablytake a plea he may have already
I don't know but and then Phelpsmight be lying I'll roll the
dice you know, I'll never knowso it a bit will be interesting.
Hopefully we can figure out thespecifics of it because people
want to know, you know, whenpeople can learn from it. You
can learn from it what mistakesyou know, did she make what what
(29:41):
things can can you kind ofcompare in your life and in you
know, but you have to rememberthat victims are victims, you
know, and you can't judge basedon and murder is such a violent,
horrific act. How could anybodydeserve that but just because of
their lifestyle, and you'vetaught me so many times over
Over and over, Chris, you say tome, when you really get to know
(30:01):
somebody, and you get to knowtheir backstory, no matter what
the even even the killers thatyou've, that you
Oh, I mean, there's been verymany, there have not been very
many killers that I'veinterviewed, that I didn't, you
know, when the interview wasover, and the confession was
over, and the case was closed,and I took him to jail and all
(30:23):
that stuff that I didn't lookback and go, Yeah, I can kind of
see, I can kind of see why thishappened. Because it is a very,
very thin line between thepeople who murder that step over
the line and murder and thepeople that are just so close to
that line and just didn't step.
You know, it's it's it's such athin line I've interviewed. I've
interviewed good people thathave murdered people.
(30:44):
Absolutely. They didn't wake upthat day thinking they were
going to do that now. Phelps andNorton, they woke up that day,
thinking they were going to doit, right. That's a different
type of killer. That's adifferent type.
That's a serial, that's a serialkiller.
So hopefully, that you know,people will come forward with
them, because I would imagine Iwould bet my paycheck, which
(31:05):
isn't very much but I'd stillbet my paycheck that there's
other victims out there. But youknow, nobody, nobody says
anything.
Would you say we don't know themotive, although we do a little
bit because of Norton said theywere trolling for victims,
potential victims, and that sortof tells you that they were
doing this, they were careerkillers or at least thinking in
(31:27):
that way.
may have found out about it,too, and said, you know, who
knows what she said? Or whathappened? You know, maybe she
found out some information andwas gonna go, you know, you
don't know, but unfortunately,hopefully, if they can't answer
it, the jury doesn't have tohave that piece in order to find
them guilty. So stay tuned tothat. So thanks, everybody, for
(31:49):
listening. And if you have anycomments or anything, please
email us atmurderwithmannina@gmail.com.
Again, thanks for listeningguys. Stay safe and stay alert
so you can be a good detectivein your own life.
(32:11):
If you have a cold case you'dlike Chris to review submit it
through our website at murderwith mannina.com and follow us
on Instagram and Facebook atmurder with mannina and Twitter
at murder W mannina. We'll beback next week with a brand new
episode of murder with mannina.
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