Massacre On Muriel Court

Chris discusses the chilling, unsolved, triple-murder of the Sims family that has haunted Tallahassee, Florida since 1966. 

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
People always want to know whatit's like to be me. How does it
feel to see a dead body? Tell afamily their loved one has been
murdered. Talk to a rape victim,catch a killer and get them to
confess. Hold on tight, myfriends. Get ready for the
journey. And welcome to murderwith mini Anna. Hello, everyone
and welcome to another editionof murder with mannina. it is so

(00:25):
so hot here in Indianapolis. Ijust got done playing golf with
my dad. I beat him by onestroke, which is a very, very
rare occasion. He is 80 yearsold, but he can really play golf
really well. He almost playsevery day. So I tried to get out
when I can and I only think Iwon because it was so freakin
hot. He was on the struggle bus.
And he doesn't really bother me.

(00:48):
Is it human? It's human. It'sand a man we've just had. We've
just had some crazy weather.
I've got tree limbs, and allsorts of things from a storm
that came through last night.
But yeah, it's crazy human butit was sunny today. So we got
out and played and more rain iscoming tonight. But we've been
getting hammered.

(01:09):
Well, when I went to New Yorklast week, I checked the
temperature. And you know, itwas about the same as San Diego.
So I packed accordingly. But Idid not factor in humidity. Oh
boy, is that a different world?
Oh, yeah. I'm so used to humanand like when I was in San Diego
visiting you. It's like, I thinkI'm cold.
I know there isn't anyone here?
Not at all. No.

(01:33):
Yeah, that's crazy. But anyway,so I'll be going to New Jersey
here in a little bit to do someactive shooter training. So I
will pack accordingly. It'll beabout the same thing as we have
in Indianapolis, but I'll be inNew Jersey, which I've never
been to. I don't know anythingabout jersey, but it's not far
from Manhattan. So I'm going tovisit that. I think I'll be
really busy but not in thenighttime. So in the evening,

(01:54):
I'll go play in New York City.
So anyways, we'll we'll getstarted on this week's case.
And, man, this is a chillingcase and it's from 1966. And
it's an unsolved triple murderof a family of The Sims family.
And this is located inTallahassee, Florida, and triple
murders. I don't know I don'tthink I've ever had a triple

(02:15):
murder and all the cases thatI've investigated on my own.
I've not had a triple murderthat I was assigned to but I
have assisted on a couple ofwhere the entire family was was
killed. So anyways, this isOctober 22 of 1966. Many of the
citizens of Tallahassee, Floridawere attending a football game

(02:37):
in the North Florida fair, thatRobert Sims who was 42 and his
wife, Helen, who was 34. Theystayed home with their youngest
daughter Joy and joy was 12. Shehad two older sisters, Jenny and
Judy, aged 16 and 17. But theyweren't home they were

(02:57):
babysitting. So at around 1115Jenny arrived home from
babysitting the radio and TVwere on and that was a familiar
scene to her. But her parentsand sisters weren't anywhere in
sight. So she began looking forthem in the house. She winds her
way back to the back of thehouse and opens the master
bedroom door. To her horror, hermom, her dad and her little

(03:23):
sister were all bound andgagged. And laying in pools of
blood. That was over 50 yearsago. And the case is still
unsolved. Even though policehave a pretty good, pretty good
idea who killed them. So couldyou imagine walking in this is
just heartbreaking.
This poor kid. I mean, whatshe's had to live with that

(03:45):
image her whole life. 18 yearsold. So just from that you're
looking at your parents that arebound and gagged. And I'm sure
that was a horrible, horriblecrime scene. Oh, man. Okay, so
at the time of this and 1966 atthe time of this murder was a
sleepy Tallahassee was a sleepysmall town. Nobody ever locked
their doors. The kids in theneighborhood played together,

(04:05):
wandered freely and stayed outuntil the streetlights came on.
The Sims were a relatively newfamily to the neighborhood. They
had moved to Tallahassee in theearly 60s. The Father Robert,
very well educated, got his PhDfrom Florida State and was
working at the Department ofEducation in the computer

(04:26):
division. He was well liked andrespected. Helen helping his mom
was a church secretary at FirstBaptist Church and a talented
pianist. The church was a familysocial home and for all three of
their daughters were goodstudents. They appeared in every
which way to be very nice allAmerican family. So just like so

(04:47):
this is the late 60s. I was bornin 71. So even in the mid 70s,
when I was just a little bittyperson we had saved thing right?
Like everybody knew everybody inthe neighborhood I played with
all of the neighborhood kids andit's true. Like you came home
and the streetlights came cameon. So, man, it's just so sad.

(05:08):
Okay, so dad was lying on top ofthe bed. This blindfolded,
gagged and bound with one shotwound to his head. He was still
alive, but not for long. Helenmom was on the floor halfway
across the room. She was alsoblindfolded, gagged and bound

(05:30):
and had been shot three times,twice in the head. And once in a
lake. She was also stillbreathing, but would die nine
days later at the hospitalwithout ever regaining
consciousness. So it sounds likemaybe mom was in bed too, but
was crawling away, has the maybeshot in the leg part and then

(05:51):
being in a different locationthan her husband?
Strange that they wereblindfolded?
Totally strange. So joy, justhorrible. She got the worst of
it, not only to been shot in thehead, but she's also stabbed
seven times in the torso, andher underwear was pulled down

(06:11):
around her ankles. And she wasalready dead. That's awful. Oh,
my God. All right, it lookedlike the attacks hadn't happened
too long before Jenny got home,which was later confirmed by a
neighbor who claimed to haveheard screams at around 10:45pm
investigators at the crime scenesaid there were no sign of

(06:33):
forced entry, and nothing hadbeen stolen. There was even
money left in plain view.
Whoever had done this seem toknow the sins and had a personal
motive for the murders. So justright here, it almost just from
where we are looking at thiscase, since Han, the youngest
daughter got it worse. You haveto. You have to think there's

(06:56):
the motive, maybe with her. Allright, Jenny didn't know what to
do. She got the yellow pages outand call the number for the
funeral home. So the father andson of the funeral home were
first to arrive. The firstpolice officer on the scene was
a deputy sheriff named LarryCampbell, who later became
sheriff. It was his 24thbirthday. Larry calls the chief

(07:18):
of police and the share. And theturf war ensued. The Sheriff
asked the police to leave Oh, myGod, Nessie, that and that
should still goes on. TheSheriff asked the police to
leave why you have a gruesome,gruesome, horrible crime scene.
Why wouldn't you want everybodywho was already there, right? So
they've already contaminated orhave been there and probably

(07:40):
have seen the scene? Why wouldyou ask them to leave? Why would
you just work together? BecauseI can't imagine with this type
of family and this type ofneighborhood that this happens
very often. And it just seemslike man, you'd want as many
people that were already therethat were qualified to kind of
help them investigation, right?
There were 42,000 people inTallahassee in the 60s. And it

(08:04):
grew to 78,000 in that decade,but it was a really small sleepy
little town. Wow.
Okay, so it says here that thecrime scene was immediately
contaminated by people going inand out of the house because the
sheriff's department didn't knowhow to handle a crime scene like

(08:25):
this. Nothing like this had everhappened in Tallahassee.
Yeah. And Chris, I read thatthere were neighbors and there
were people in the town comingin and out of the house and
taking souvenirs, like an ash.
That so wasn't treated as acrime scene, it wasn't, you
know, wasn't blocked ortreated as a museum or
something? Well, so what'sinteresting is, okay, I

(08:47):
understand that, you know, theymay have never had a case like
this, but it's pretty muchpolice 101 If you've gone
through any type of training,that a crime scene like that you
at least put crime scene tapeup, and you know, not to let
people go in and out like that.

(09:07):
To me, it's just especially whenyou have the chief of police and
the sheriff there. Very rarelydo they come out scenes. Now
maybe a scene like this,especially in the late 60s when
things weren't as common but Idon't know that I've ever had
the chief of police that any ofmy homicide scenes so you would
think that they would at leastknow to put crime scene tape up

(09:28):
and keep people out. But itsounds like it just became a
looky loo like oh my god, thishat like you've got to see this.
And I hate to hear that. It'sjust horrible. So some of the
interesting evidence found atthis crime scene the knots used
to bound the Sims arespecialized kind. former
assistant state attorney Jeremymots claimed in a Reddit post in

(09:49):
2017 that everything indicatedthat the murders had been
planned that the killer orkillers had spent time cleaning
the scene and suggested thatwould have to be someone who
would feel comfortable beingseen at the neighborhood without
raising suspicions. Yeah, I meanI would imagine it would have to

(10:10):
be the 12 year old she's notgoing to put much of a fight
she's not you know, you knowthat big or that strong mom and
dad I mean still three peopleit's probably more than one
person butin the end the element of
surprise right i mean that thatyeah, how could they doesn't
sound like the dooryou know that anybody sounds
like a hate crime because theyou know, the the tying up and

(10:32):
the shooting and stabbing inthat whole thing, but it's like,
who hated this family? Theyseemed like such a lovely sweet
family. That's what's somysterious. Yeah, no
forced entry. That's not a bigdeal because it sounds like the
neighborhood was you left yourdoors unlocked. And, you know,

(10:53):
so that kind of, you know,anybody can walk in as my point.
Of course, probably no problem.
The crime shocked the communityleading even to cancel trick or
treating that year at a fearthat there was a killer still on
the loose. No one couldunderstand who would want to
target a well liked family withno known enemies. People were

(11:16):
scared. doors, door locks soldout. pistols were so loud and
women bought water guns andfilled them with ammonia.
Interesting. Yeah, you can tellthat they really it didn't shock
them. Initially, theinvestigation focused on a high
profile member of the city.
Pastor see a Roberts. Helen hadworked for him at the First

(11:39):
Baptist Church, but had quit herjob just a few days before she
was murdered. The reason of whyshe resigned was a mystery. But
there was a lot of speculationthat Helen had some difficulty
with him as many other womendid. Pastor Roberts had a
bachelor's degree and master'sdegree and a PhD. He won the

(12:01):
Tallahassee Jr. Chamber ofCommerce Man of the Year, and
the next year he wins theFlorida man of the year. He was
such a spellbinding speaker thatmany members of his common
congregation would attend bothof his services on Sundays. But
Helen knew his dark side. Herewe go. Although pastor Roberts
was married, he was havingaffairs with lots and lots and

(12:24):
lots of women. It possible Monawas that Helen knew too much.
However, Pastor Roberts wasruled out because he had been at
the football game. Not only hadhe been seen by many witnesses
in both halves of the games,there was video footage of him
there. He did leave duringhalftime, but investigators

(12:45):
drove every route from thefootball game to The Sims house.
And there was not enough timefor Robert to do good work on
the police. Right? Like you haveto sometimes drive the route of
where people say they were atand just see if there's a
possibility in the timeframecould he have done this kudos to
them. There was another suspectRobert Rob house. He married

(13:09):
Peggy house on December 21 of1966. The day after he married
Peggy they were driving fromTallis hassy. To alligator point
to honeymoon. At some pointduring the trip. Rob house
started telling Peggy in graphicdetail how he murdered Joy Sims
first. Ellen sim second andRobert Sims less. Rob house told

(13:34):
Peggy that if she tells thepolice had killed her. In the
80s A letter was discovered thatPeggy had written according to
Peggy's letter he was incrediblyviolent. He was an alcoholic and
he had threatened to kill hisstepson on various occasions.
After they were divorced, Peggyagreed to go undercover for the

(13:56):
Tallahassee police to try to geta confession at him. His house
was bugged, but it didn't work.
Because Rob was tipped off byhis daughter. Peggy also turned
Rob's gun into the police. Itwas a 32 caliber handgun, but
the gun that was used in themurder was a 38 caliber handgun.
The other problem with how as asuspect was the lack of motive.

(14:20):
Apparently had he had had a runin with Colin at a grocery
store. He told Peggy that hefollowed Helen home and decided
he was going to come back tokill her. But Rob house was off
the hook because Hisfingerprints were not at the
crime scene. He passed apolygraph test with flying
colors and his handgun did notmatch.
And he didn't even do it andhe's bragging to his bride. What

(14:44):
kind of people do that saysomething like that?
It's well because it was such ablow your mind type of thing. It
was kind of leverage. Peoplewere scared. Right? And so if
you're trying to intimidate yourwife, that would be a good
example or girlfriend or Oh mylord. Okay, so here we have a
third suspect in the case andhis name was Tommy Fulghum. He

(15:06):
was a 15 year old boy at thetime of the murders. Jump ahead
when Fogle is 29 It's 1978 He'sliving in Atlanta, Georgia and
he commits a grisly murderhe is found with a liver in a

(15:28):
jar and with a dis and bowedwoman that he had just murdered
in his apartment with her handscut likes. It just killed his
girlfriend. A reporter inTallahassee turns up this murder
does a little homework and seesthat Tommy live two blocks from
the sentence family. He takesthis to the state attorney. At

(15:48):
the time of the murders. Tommywas a high school sophomore. He
was small in stature and memberof the choir and a normal kid by
all accounts, Tommy went on toserve in the Navy was honorably
discharged and started to havesevere mental problems. A few
years later, several people wereinterviewed about Tommy's
whereabouts, including hisgirlfriend at the time. By all

(16:09):
accounts he was at a party whenthe Sims were murdered. Also,
Tommy's friends do not match anyof the crime scene. It's crazy.
This is nuts.
I know like this little tinytown and there's all these
bizarre characters in it.

(16:29):
Okay, so now we've got twosuspects new a new two suspects
had never been cleared. Therewere two teenagers that live
nearby. Mary Charles Lovejoy 19At the time, and her boyfriend
Vernon Fox 21 at the time. Marycame home came from a troubled

(16:51):
home she was adopted and shedescribed both parents as
abusive. She was in Madisonjunior college at the time
because she was 19. The collegecould hardly keep her with a
roommate because she freakedeveryone out. She had a poster
above her dorm bed that said atisket a tasket come sleep in my
casket. A ship. Mary wasobsessed with death so much that

(17:17):
she hung out at the funeralhomes. And the owners would ask
her to stop coming. She brokeinto another funeral home and
stole funeral gowns and slept inthem. I Lord, she had only one
friend and that was burnin herboyfriend. They became friends
in elementary school and becameromantic in high school. Vernon

(17:39):
was a couple years older thanMary at the time of the murders,
Mary was in high school. burninwas back at home after being
discharged from the army armydue to mental health problems.
The back corner of Ernestproperty touched the back corner
of the Sims property. The backcorner burned his property
touched the back corner of theSims property and the joy lived

(18:00):
a couple of houses down. He wasspotted peeping on Joy Sims a
week before the murders.
Let's Let's remind everyone shewas 12 he was he was seen
peeping on a 12 year old girl.
Yeah, and he's 21 Okay. Therehave been inconsistencies in

(18:22):
their interviews since thebeginning and both of their
stories have changed over theyears. But joy told police that
she and Vernon were at themovies. She claims they watched
two and a half movies but theticket taker at the drive in
knew them and remember that theyhad left after the first movie.
burnin told investigators thatthey had sex in the car after
the movies, but Lovejoy claimedthat Vernon didn't get into her

(18:46):
drawers until much later. Butwhy would they hate a family so
much? That had done nothing tothem? I mean, why that just is
crazy.
That's the whole thing aboutthis I was you know, what would
the motive be and and there andthere are in their interviews.
They themselves especiallyLovejoy hint at motives.

(19:10):
Well, and the thing too is wehave to remember, obviously they
were all killed horribly but the12 year old had the worst and
appeared she was stabbed herunderwear so
Lovejoy only had one friend itwas Vernon Vernon and Lovejoy
were both known as oddballs,outcasts, and they only had each
other and then yeah, Vernon isspying on the 12 year old and

(19:35):
Lovejoy is obsessed with death.
So did Lovejoy kill the 12 yearold because Vernon was spying on
her, which to me also stillfeels like such a flimsy motive.
You Yeah. Well, we've got we'veobviously got mental health
issues and a lot of these peoplethat are at least named suspects

(19:58):
or even the ones that were clearI mean, there's just Yeah, I
just okay so, in the 80s, MaryCharles Lovejoy went back to
Tallahassee to voluntarily talkto the investigators, and
suggested that Vernon by thenher ex husband had committed the
murders. Her motives to turn onhim are dubious, especially when

(20:20):
she showed interest in thereward money. Still, there was
plenty of reason to suspectthem, considering they kept
giving conflicting statements tothe police. But there was no
hard evidence that would lead toan arrest.
So they but what about thefingerprints from Mary Charles

(20:41):
Lovejoy and Vernon Fox withthat's not mentioned anywhere,
and how many differentfingerprints were at the crime
scene that's not mentionedanywhere either.
Well, and this is the thing too,you could tell from the
beginning, that the crime scenewas jacked up. Okay, so we don't
even really know how great theyeven dusted for prints. Like we

(21:08):
don't really know, where's thecrime scene like, because that
type of scene, you could spenddays in there, you could spend
days in there, because you justdon't, when there's no forced
entry. You just don'tfingerprint like, just around
the crime scene, you're gonnahave to start looking at other
areas of the house. Right?
Because they're and did they dothat? I know that they're saying

(21:31):
that their fingerprints weren'tthere. But how well did they do
it? And it makes it so hard whenit's contaminated so far. Plus,
we're talking the late 60s too.
And you have to think about thisto the people that they
interviewed, you know, did theyhave cuts on their hands because
you when you stab somebody,you're gonna have some injury on

(21:53):
your hands, probably just fromthe blood, and going back and
stabbing your hand when it getsbloody and gets wet will slide
down.
And they did mention that inthis documentary, and then the
one article I found so pastor,so the pastor, he didn't have
any cuts on his hand, which wasanother reason they ruled him
out that his he wasn't ruffledup at all no bruises, nothing.

(22:17):
He's got a pretty solid alibiwith.
So he didn't do it. But and theTommy and the Robert how the
creepy guy who told his wife,his, you know, for three reasons
his hand can didn't match. Hisfingerprints weren't anywhere at
the scene. And his polygraph, Iguess you can't count on that.

(22:40):
But the polygraph test he flew,he passed with flying colors,
the creepy kid who ended upbecoming a murderer. He had
many, many people verify that hewas at a party at the time on
the same night, and at the timethe murders happened. So that's
his alibi. That's his only onlyalibi, but also, why would he

(23:01):
Oh, add the girls, the Judy andJenny, the other two girls. They
had no idea who this Tommyfulcrum was they hadn't they had
never seen him they didn't knowso the other so it seems
unlikely even though he went onto become a really creepy,
grisly killer. It doesn't seemlikely that he did that he

(23:23):
killed the Sims. So really, theonly people that seem actually
likely are Mary Charles Lovejoyand Vernon Fox because of their
proximity to the crime, becauseof their personalities and in
her obsession with death. Andbecause when Lovejoy came back

(23:45):
in the 80s, to talk to thedetective Larry Campbell, that's
a videotaped interview. It was asix hour interview, it was
videotaped. And there's adocumentary by Kyle Jones. It's
on. It's online. It's absolutelyfree. It's tremendously
compelling. He did a fabulousjob. It's called 641 Mario Kart.

(24:09):
That was the address of thehouse. It's called 641 Mario
Kart. For listeners who areinterested in this case, I
highly recommend you go andwatch the documentary. It
includes footage of thatinterview with Lovejoy. Vernon
was also interviewed for thisdocumentary and Vernon has also
been very active on crime forumsabout this case, including a

(24:33):
Reddit right he's a littleobsessed with it so I mean,
obsessed i don't know but he'she's obviously yeah, I guess
obsessed right all these yearslater attention to it. Right. So
basically, Vernon said thatafter they got divorced, he had
to pay alimony and when thealimony when the alimony ran out

(24:55):
when he he no longer had tolegally pay Lovejoy one had more
alimony because she had neverworked and he supported her the
whole time. And when he deniedher request to continue alimony,
then he said she would kill meif she could. That's what she
would like to do. But she knowsshe can't get away with it. So
second best thing would be toput me in jail for this murder

(25:19):
for the murder of The Sims andput me in jail for for my whole
life. That's her NAT that's nowher goal. But she didn't realize
this. Vernon says the reason shewent to the police is to tiptoe
around and find out a whatevidence they had on her because
they knew that they had neverbeen ruled out as suspects. And

(25:39):
also to to find out, I guess shediscovered in the interview, she
can't she can't testify againstVernon with the details needed
to get a conviction withoutincriminating herself as well.
And then also there's the rewardmoney that maybe she was

(25:59):
tiptoeing around to see if therewas any possibility of getting
the reward money if she turnedhim in. So they are the only two
people that seem I guess,likely, but still, it seems to
me again, like what was themotive? This was such a sweet,
nice family. Nobody hated thisfamily. Everybody respected them

(26:22):
and liked them. But But again,like Lovejoy says, Lovejoy says
she has had a horrific childhoodvery traumatic. She was abused
her whole life. And then maybeshe was jealous of the family
that, you know, these girls hadso much love from their parents
and from their siblings. I youknow, it's just it's hard to

(26:45):
figure out it's hard to I guess,for somebody who would never do
something like that. It's hardto imagine how anybody else
could? Well, Ithink it's all right there. I
mean, I think you know, but man,when you mess up the crime scene
from the beginning, it makesthings so difficult.
Yeah, so my question is, in the80s, Lovejoy comes and does a
six hour interview that's, youknow, filmed. And obviously,

(27:08):
they're the only they're the twomost likely suspects in this
this crime. Where do you go fromhere, Chris, as an investigator,
Is there anywhere else to go?
Are these people just going tobe if they really did it? Well,
they get away with it for therest of their lives. I wonder?
Well, it just depends ifanybody's continuing to work at
work at so I mean, this is thething, I would keep going back

(27:30):
to her. And this is why becauseshe likes to talk Why the hell
would she come back in the 80sShe has reasons for that.
Either. It'd be money orwhatever. But what that tells me
she's willing to talk andhe seems to like attention to
though he did a documentary andhe's active on the crime forums
about this case, so and that buthere's the other thing, Chris,

(27:51):
like how would two people thatdid something so horrific in
their late teens? Would theynever do anything else? Like
that creepy the rest of theirlives? Or maybe not?
too? Well, they may not have tothough, because they're getting
off by it. One it's not beingit's not solved. to Now there's

(28:11):
documentaries about it. They'regetting a lot of attention. I
mean, it might just be enoughfor them. You know what I mean?
Like it could just beit's, it's seated her death
obsession.
Yeah, yeah. And I mean,obviously I think that like so
asking me what I would do iswell, first of all, were the two
other daughters interviewed inthe documentary, but two other

(28:33):
sisters.
No, not at all. Actually, theyweren't at all I would
talk to them a little bit. Yeah,I would talk to them and then I
would let Mary and Vernon havediarrhea of the mouth and just
talk talk talk even almost triedto manipulate it and be like
man, you know, almost play itlike the opposite like that's

(28:54):
horrible that they think you'rea suspect. What do you guys
think? Because they're followingit. You know,
they didn't say in the dark.
They did say in the documentarythat the detective Larry
Campbell. At one point in theinterview, he cut Lovejoy off,
which is the biggest nono right?
Get you're supposed to just letthem talk and hang themselves.
Yeah, the more and that's whatI'm saying is I've just let Mary

(29:16):
and Vernon talk all they wantjust talk talk talk
about brigade, could you legallybring both of them into the same
room and play them against eachother? Could you legally do? I
wouldnever know I would never bring
them in the same room. Never.
Never Never. I could play himagainst each other but not at
the same time. Oh, interview oneand then go back and say hey,
Vernon said this.

(29:38):
They'd have to they'd have toagree to an interview. They
couldn't be brought in. Couldthey be mandatorily brought in
to be interviewed for this crimeall these years later?
Well, I don't know. I don't knowif they have any other evidence.
I don't know if they have anyother evidence but I don't know
that it would be have to bemandatory. Like I said, I think
they both like to talk. Youthink
their fingerprints if they didit would be in the house because

(30:00):
If you would thankme but like I said, we don't
know it sounded like the crimescene was chaos. So police work.
Good old fashioned police workmay have gone down the tubes as
far as the crime scene peopledoing what they needed to do
because there's a turf warbetween the police and the
sheriff's there's people in andout of it. It's chaotic. I mean,

(30:20):
yeah. Well, what an interestingcase. So again, viewers if
you're interested in it, man,what's it called again? 641
Mario Kart?
Yes. 641 Mario Kart, Kyle Jonesis the documentarian he he was a
student when he made thisdocumentary and he just did such

(30:42):
a fabulous job is tremendouslycompelling. Alrighty, all right.
Well, thanks for bringing thiscase to our attention what a
horrible, horrible murders forthis family and just that no
one's been arrested makes itworse. So again, we appreciate
all the listenership all theemails, please share. If you
haven't rated us please do andwe'll see you next time on

(31:04):
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