The Murder Of Sarah Wallace

In 2007, 20-year-old Sarah Wallace, an aspiring nurse, was shot inside her apartment after arguing with her boyfriend in a bar.   Chris examines why her boyfriend is the obvious suspect including the fact he admitted to shooting Sarah.  So why, after all of these years, is he still a free man?  

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
People always want to know whatit's like to be me. How does it
feel to see a dead body, tell afamily, their loved one has been
murdered, talk to a rape victim,catch a killer, and get them to
confess, hold on time, myfriends, get ready for the
journey. And welcome to murderwith Mannina

(00:23):
Hello, everyone, and welcome toanother edition of murder with
mannina. I'm gonna jump rightinto it and talk a little bit
about the Delphi case. If you'vebeen following along, there's
some new developments in thestretch that evidently,
well, first of all, when I saw apicture of the suspect, he looks
like he's sick. He was a prettystocky guy. And he's in jail,

(00:47):
obviously been arrested, but helooks almost ill.
Who in what way, he's lost a lotof weight. He's not stocky at
all. And he,gosh, he just looks he looks
like he's sick, pretty much justhow he looks. But anyways, the
new development is thatsupposedly he has confessed to
several people about killing thetwo girls. So that's good

(01:11):
information. And that's goodevidence. And if you don't know
all your recordings from insidea jail, they're always recorded.
So when you call anybody fromjail, it's always recorded. So
they heard him confessed to hiswife
during a phone call, that he didkill the girls, and she got all

(01:34):
upset and hung up. So that isreally, really good. So because
when I read the probable cause,there didn't seem to be a lot of
evidence. And now that nowthey've kind of distributed over
200 pages have information aboutthe case and the probable
probable cause and kind of someof the things that they have not

(01:56):
been holding, you know, have notbeen given the information. So
it looks like they were stabbed,did he act alone?
That's what it's not beenreleased. That is what's not
been released. So the only thingthat's been released new really
is that he confessed. So that'sa good thing. So I was up in
Delphi doing some work for mynew job. And, you know, it's a

(02:19):
little disturbing up there,because the trial is supposed to
be starting in January, which Ithink is rolling quickly. I'll
be surprised, because inJanuary, but
the people that I was talking toyou know, they're concerned for
their safety. And you know, it'sjust going to be probably a
madhouse with media in the smalllittle town. And they're
shipping the jurors from FortWayne, Indiana, which would be a

(02:42):
couple hours for the jurors tocome in and sit and listen to
this. So that's the newdevelopment on the Delphi case.
It's a good thing. It'll be arecording on you know, of him
confessing to his wife is socrazy. Because Joe phone calls
have been so good for me duringmy career. We can listen to him.
We asked, you know, that's oneof the reasons we ask for phone

(03:03):
numbers. Whenever we'reinterviewing witnesses, and
phone numbers, even when we'reinterviewing suspects of who's
who's the baby mama, who's thebaby daddy, we we try to get all
of these numbers, because whenthey come up on the jail's
calls, you know, I'll know whohe's calling, or she's calling

(03:23):
and so that's that's but theysay before that the conversation
even starts, it says this is theyou know, Marin County jail or
whatever jail you're in, andthis phone call is being
recorded. So it's crazy thatpeople know that they say that
every phone every time you makea telephone call, but we get a
lot of information over.
And it's admissible evidence. Itis it is I've used it before. So

(03:47):
I figured that defense hisdefense attorney will, you know,
try to you know, say that it wascursed or he was crazy or
whatever. But who knows. Sothat's the new development in
there. But today I want to talkabout a case and this isn't not
a case of a who done it. This isa case of they know exactly who
did it. And he has not beenarrested yet. And this is a

(04:09):
super sad case. So this is outof Cincinnati, Ohio that
happened July 6 of 2007. And hername was Sarah Wallace. And she
was murdered. So people havedescribed her she's 20 years
old. She lives in Cincinnati,which is not very far from
Indianapolis a little over anhour, but she was described as

(04:29):
friends and family describe heras kind of warm, kind hearted
and outgoing. She was carefreeto like to dance in the rain to
love signs and had made plans toattend college. If you hear
anything in the background. It'sthunder. We're having crazy
storms. Oh, I love that. Yeah,well, it's not it's not nothing
to love because the same we werehit a couple I don't know maybe

(04:54):
a month ago by a tornado justsouth of where I live about 40
miles and anotherTheir tornado touchdown just a
few days ago in the same area.
Oh, yeah. Real close to anassisted living place so crazy.
But if your thunder that'swhat's going on here. So she was
I had dreams of becoming a nurseto work with hospice patients.

(05:16):
She was described as aninspiration and a lifeline to
those who needed her. She hadonce literally given someone the
shirt off her back, when anindividual came to her
workplace, clearly unable toafford proper clothing for the
weather and shivering cold, shetook off her sweatshirt and
handed it over and told theperson to keep it. She was that
kind of person, she would giveyour last $10 to in her pocket

(05:37):
if you needed it.
And this was described by one ofSarah's close friends. So here's
the situation. Here's anoverview of it. And then we're
going to talk a little bit aboutkind of the timeline of
everything and all of the redflags. And this is just a really
disturbing case because there'snot been an arrest and it's

(05:58):
quite clear who did it. Andwe'll talk a little bit about
grand juries and why. You know,those are good and bad in this
situation. Soall right, she was she was
incredible. She was 20. Like Isaid she was incredibly close
with our sister in law Betsy,who she met when she was 11. She
was always reliable make timefor one she loved particularly

(06:18):
for her nieces and nephews soshe was very, very close to her
family. A few days prior to herdeath. She attended her
grandmother's annual Fourth ofJuly party.
It was evidently Sarah'sfavorite holiday. But her family
quickly noticed that she waswearing a long sleeve t shirt in
group concern that Sarah wascovering bruises or self

(06:40):
harming. She had a history ofdepression and she was diagnosed
with bipolar disorder and hadsought out treatment. So the
family seeing these things, theydo absolutely become concerned
but I don't think anything wassaid. So the next day she she
worked at the CVS and the nextday she clocked out and CVS and

(07:00):
went to her second job at theball field where she sees her
brother Andrew and her father.
By 11pm. She had plans to meetup with her boyfriend Leonard
Messer, remember that nameLeonard Messer for drinks at a
local bar. The two ended upgetting into an argument because
Leonard had been drinking allday at the bar and in it and

(07:20):
then they got into an argumentand ended up sitting on opposite
ends of the bar.
They leave separately. So in theearly mornings of July 6 2007.
They leave the bar separatelyafter an argument she makes a
pitstop at the CVS to buycigarettes before heading home.

At approximately 1 (07:39):
15am That's about two hours after she meets
up with her boyfriend. Aneighbor heard a loud noise and
felt the entire apartmentbuilding shake. That's what how
it was described. Sara waskilled by a gunshot wound to the
neck. While Messer the boyfriendLeonard was in the apartment. Oh

(08:00):
my god, Mr. Messer left theresidence or returned to his
parents home where his motherJeanne Messer, she called 911
saying and I quote my son shothis girlfriend.
Messer would later tell policethat Sarah was emotional and
wanted to hurt herself and thegun went off during a heated

(08:21):
exchange between the two.
However, police would find Saraslumped over with the gun in her
lap and a bullet wound in herneck. Based upon the positioning
of the gun, our labinvestigators felt it was
unnatural for it to be a selfinflicted gunshot. Now, mind
you, when the detectives cantell, and they give their

(08:44):
examination of what the crimescene looks like, right? That's
why every time I entered a crimescene, I was very meticulous, I
was very slow walking through itjust for these types of
questions to be answered. Youknow, does it make sense? How
the body is positioned? And inthis case where the gun is an

(09:04):
investigator said no, it'sprobably not likely that she
shot herself in the neck. Andit's not very often we're women.
If they want to commit suicide.
We'll do it by God. So whenfirst responders arrived on the
scene, Betsy notice commotion atSAROS apartment complex. Betsy

(09:28):
immediately called around toSarah's friends and family as
well as calling Sara directlybut she didn't get an answer.
But your relatives and arrive onscene and were able to talk to
offers patrolling the scene forfor for information. So that's
how they found out.
One month later, when Sarah'sfather Danny Wallace was working

(09:49):
out his bar because his or herparents owned the Groesbeck
tavern, a patron by the name ofJackie Lange told Sarah's dad
that her friend Kimberlyhace Abney was with Messrs.
Shortly after Sara's passing,said they had an on an on again
and off again relationship andclaims that the boyfriend had

(10:11):
confessed to killing Sara. Uponreceiving the information. She
obviously told Messer to leaveher home. Okay, we fast forward
10 years. And there's minimalupdates on the case, until
master was brought in in frontof a grand jury as the main
person of interest in Sarah'sdeath. Unfortunately, the jury

(10:33):
felt that there was not enoughevidence to move forward in the
case, which blows my mind. Letme back up. A grand jury in Ohio
is a jury made up of ninerandomly selected registered
voters of the local community.

(10:55):
Summon the same way as trialjurors. Unlike a jury trial,
however, Grand Jurors are notscreened for bias or other
potential issues. So they justget picked. And they're part of
a grand jury. So they they'renot asked questions like jurors
are when we are selecting a juryfor a jury trial. All right, a

(11:17):
grand jury hears only theversion of events from the
prosecutor and her witnesses. Sothis nine group of people that
come in, they hear the case. Andthere's no defense attorney,
there's there's only theprosecutors version of it, which
even blows my mind a little bitmore. Because there's no

(11:39):
obviously if the prosecutorfeels like there's possibly
enough evidence to indict, theyget the grand jury. That's why
they bring it to a grand jury.
And there's no defense attorneyfor the suspect, putting any
type of doubt into their mind.
So the prosecutor is like givingall of the evidence same,

(11:59):
everything that went down. Soit's so unbelievable to me, that
this group of nine people didnot feel like
there was enough evidence, okay,based on the history, and we're
gonna go through the timelineof this, but it's just, it's
just crazy to me. So who's Whosegun was it? Well, that's a good
question. And I don't know thatI know the answer to that, which

(12:23):
I've reached out. Of course, Ialways reach out to the family.
But gosh, I'd love to hear thattrial. I mean, how does it go
down? It's not the trial. Thejury So how this works? If I
mean, I guess the presentation,I would love to hear prosecutors
presentation, because how onearth? Could there be any doubt?

(12:48):
Exactly did it I mean, justhearing what we've done, and he
said it and why did it take themyears a grand jury, I've only
had a couple of them. So ourgrand jury, most of the time is
used when an officer shootsomebody, right in the course of
their duty. It goes in front ofa grand jury in the grand jury

(13:09):
decides, do they want to indict?
So it's almost kind of likegetting an opinion and a second
opinion where the prosecutorslike, well, let me I don't know,
there's this and there's thisand there's this, let me take it
to the grand jury and decide ifthey feel like there's enough
evidence to make an arrest.

(13:30):
Okay. The grand grand jury thatI was in, it's very laid back. I
sat at the front of the table.
The prosecutor was at the othertable. The jury, the grand jury
was around me. It's there's it'snot formal, it's not anything.
It's like, Hey, this is whathappened. This is what we think
happened. This is what thedetectives think. And the grand
jury is actually allowed to askme questions. There's no

(13:54):
objection, there's no judge. Soif the grand jury says yes, he's
guilty, he doesn't go to jail.
It just goes to trial. It's justYeah, it's not about guilt or
innocence. It's it's theiropinion, if they think that
there's enough evidence to makeit. Okay, right. Okay. So, and

(14:16):
they're allowed to askquestions. There's no objections
or so. So what I imaginehopefully, and I don't know if
they did this or not, but one ofthe questions would be,
Detective, when you were at thecrime scene, do you think it's
possible that she could haveshot herself? Now I know what
the prosecutor is thinking thatthere's going to be some

(14:38):
there's going to be somequestion come up. If she's
bipolar, she's been depressed,you know, they were in a fight.
All of that BS is going to comeand I know the prosecutor was
thinking that's going to be athat's going to be something
that we have to get past. Andthere's prosecutors that say
that and I liked that. Hey,because no case is perfect. You

(15:00):
know, defense attorneys canalways come up with something
there can always be some kind ofdoubt. It's just how much doubt
and is it believable? Is itreasonable? Because remember,
it's beyond a reasonable doubtnot beyond any doubt. It's
beyond any reasonable doubt. Allright, when you go to jury
trial, so, in this is like atotally circumstantial case, I

(15:24):
guess.
Right, because in here, you'llhear the timeline. This is why
All right, so June 27 2007. Whata couple. About a week before

(15:45):
her she's murdered. The familynotices bruises on her face and
arms. When say when Sarah'sfamily asked her what happened.
She tells them that that she andher boyfriend were recently a
nearby lake. Mess or theboyfriend juggling pushed her
into the lake leading to herscrapes and bruises. The family
believes that she is a victim ofdomestic abuse and is covering

(16:06):
for him. But why do they believethat what other evidence is
there to did they know that hewas irascible had he had a
violent temper? I mean, what howdo we know? It doesn't it
doesn't sound like it. It wasone of those deals where they
think because she was wearinglong sleeves, but they evidently

(16:27):
didn't confront her or didn'tmove forward with it very much
and kinda let it go because sheblew it off. From what I can
tell now. And I That's why Ialways want to get a hold of the
family to give their, you know,give their version of it. June
28. The very next day, shedecides to move in with her
brother and his wife, Betsy,remember, Betsy, they're really,

(16:48):
really close was one of herclosest friends. She had
believed that her boyfriend wasgoing to get a divorce. So
evidently he was married. And ifhe didn't leave his wife by
July, she was going to leavethem. She plans on packing her
things and moving the weekend.
She has killed now.
I'm not rocket science, butwe're painting the picture,

(17:08):
right? Like we're painting.
Right? What's the what's themost dangerous time for a victim
of domestic violence is whenthey leave or when they decide
to leave is by far the mostdangerous time. So July 4, her
boyfriend get into a fight.
Again, she's at hergrandmother's house. She was
wearing a long sleevesweatshirt, like I said, which

(17:30):
is unusual to cut out. Familiesconcerned. Sarah had a history
though of depression and hadundergone treatment for possible
bipolar. So that's being broughtout again. So is she harming
herself? Because that's going tobe brought up in a jury trial
right just because of her.

(17:51):
All right, so that's July 4,July 5.
She works at the CVS she clocksout of her shift at the CVS.
She goes at 11 o'clock. So itgoes to a second job after
clocking out she goes to herjacket second job at a ballpark.
This is the last time herbrother and father see her and

(18:11):
this is July 5. So Levin 30 July5, they go to the bar, her
boyfriend go to the bar, theymeet up at the local bar. When
she gets out of work while atthe bar, they get into an
argument and end up sitting atopposite sides of the bar. And
they leave separately. July 6Early morning. So they they're
there in a lab and by midnight.

(18:34):
She's already left they leftseparately. She goes to CVS she
buys some cigarettes and sheheads home. 1230 She is home.
She returns home she is chattingwith a neighbor who lives across
the street. They speak for abouta half an hour. She then then
the boyfriend shows up at herapartment. He arrives a series

(18:56):
apartment. It's unclear he gotthere so Sarah left him at the
bar and took her car home. So heshows up now we're a couple of
hours into this but he'sintoxicated
115 A and she's shocked while inher apartment with him. Sarah
shot when the police arrive,they would find Sarah hunched
over, hunched over think aboutthis in your mind, hunched over

(19:19):
on her couch with the Smith andWesson gun that shot her in the
neck sitting on her lap.
According to police reports. Atapproximately 115 A neighbor
heard a loud sound felt thebuilding shake and later saw an
older intoxicated man enterSarah's apartment. Messrs father
drives 25 minutes to Sarah'sapartment to pick up his son

(19:42):
Leonard. When her boyfriendleaves he Oh, but he does not
call 911 and he locks Sarah'sapartment door. Messer and his
father drive 25 minutes back tothe family home. He does not
call 911 and that'snot I mean, what would be the
reason for that?

(20:04):
Well, I'm not going to call 911After I shot somebody.
Exactly. I mean, what otherreason could there be 342 a m

3 (20:13):
42am. She shot at 115. Phone call the 911. In the early
morning hours of July 6 2007Messers mother calls 911. Now
we're two hours into this andstates and I quote, My son shot
his girlfriend, my sonaccidentally shot his

(20:35):
girlfriend.
He says that Sarah was suicidaland took his gun and an attempt
to shoot herself, and it's hisgun. They struggle over the gun
and he claimed she accidentallyshot herself. The gun was found
sitting in her lap, butforensics would determine that
the placement of the gun in herlap was a natural for someone

(20:58):
who shot herself.
This is nuts or what I'm stillnot seeing how there's any doubt
I know. 346 police officersarrived on scene and forcibly
open her apartment. Other thanthat officers did not no note
any for century, authoritiesobserve a Smith and Wesson Blue

(21:20):
Steel revolver and Sarah's labin a bag of ammunition on the
coffee table in front of her. Ohmy god, can you say staged. She
is seated crosslake In whatseems to be a completely relaxed
manner. And there appears tohave been no struggle in the
apartment.

(21:41):
For 12 Messer is arrested,police arrive at Messers home
where he was in the bathroomvomiting. The officer reads in
his rights and he's taken in forfurther questioning at the
station. Because this isn'trocket science. All right. So
without knowing the details, orthat Sarah was involved, Betsy

(22:04):
notices a commotion at Sarah'sapartment complex and calls
around to check on Sara familymembers arrive and find out more
information from the officers onthe scene. Sarah's family tried
calling her but there's noanswer. Sarah's mother confronts
an officer at the crime sceneand asks Did the motherfucker
killerthat's what mom says at the
scene did the motherfucker kill.

(22:27):
Now look, that's what we that'swhat I would say is excited
utterance. That's evidence rightlike that's things that are
coming out to talk about whatpeople are feeling and what they
think and the possibilities. Theofficer tells her that he she
does not know and that she wouldneed to speak to a detective.
Another deputy reports that aman who he believes to be

(22:51):
Sarah's brother said I think mysister has been killed that can
you imagine the same? Can youimagine this? This scene? I'm
still waiting to hear why thistook 10 years to go to a grand
jury then. Okay, so that is July6 of 2007 you jump to August 9

(23:11):
Julie Wallace shares a tip withlaw enforcement Julian Danny
Wallace. I'm the parents ownGroesbeck Catherine one night
when Danny Wallace was working awoman at the bar named Jackie
Lang tells him that her friendKimberly was with Messer shortly
after Sarah's death. She saysthat Messer went to Abby's house

(23:32):
and told her that he had killedSara. Upon learning of this
information at me tells Messerto leave her home.
Here we go. 2018 Sara's case isbrought in front of our grand
jury nearly 10 years afterSarah's death. The case is

(23:52):
brought in front of the grandjury with Leonard Messer as the
main person of interestunfortunately, the jury feels
that there is not enoughevidence to move the case
forward. And the case is close.
Much to the dismay of herfamily. He moved shortly after
the murder and is currentlyliving in Texas. So this is the

(24:14):
thing about it and this was whatI said before
and this Kimberly that he wasseeing when did she win did she
come forward and say that hetold her pretty quickly that he
pretty quickly right after whatI don't understand. I mean how

(24:36):
did this take 10 years pleasedid everything right? They did
everything right and sometimeswhen when you have domestic
situations like thisthe crime scene isn't always
like your normal crime sceneright? There's going to be your
stuff there my stuff there. Hishe obviously had a gun.

(24:57):
So you know thatThere's no There's no forced
entry, you know, there's not.
But when you have cases likethis, the way that I tried to
investigate them is that we haveto prove how if it's not him,
then what the hell else couldhave happened? What evidence is
there to show that anything elsehappened? This is a

(25:20):
circumstantial case. But a goodone. And I've taken so many
circumstantial cases to courtand one, right, because there's
no other questions. Now, thereis going to be the question, but
you have forensic people thatare telling the grand jury, it's
not, it's not really possible,the way that she's seated, you

(25:40):
know, to have shot herself inthe neck.
And the way the where the gunwas found, it's not really
possible that that can happen.
Now. We can't sit there and say,is 100% possible? You know, we
cannot say anything to 100%. Butwhen this thing is brought to
the grand jury, and you startlooking at the history, and you

(26:04):
start looking at all of thedomestic violence, are there
other Were there other domesticviolence clues?
Well, I would imagine, so notthat I can found, but it's not,
it's never the first time hedidn't go from this, you know,
killing her, you know, he didn'tjust, you know, beat her up once

(26:26):
and then shoot her. It probablywas a combination of, there was
pressure from her to, for him toleave his wife. Like she said,
she was going to move out, thenyou throw in alcohol, and he was
at the bar all day drinking,then you throw in the argument,
all of that, and then you have agun. And then you have just you

(26:47):
have a gun in the house. I mean,that just upset Danny 1000 times
more. But also, I mean, what'shis wife interviewed? Did she
have a violent relationship withHim? Because if it's someone
who's an abuser, they're notabusive with just one woman.
Exactly. It's a common it's, itruns in every relationship they

(27:08):
have, right. And that's thewhole thing. It's like, I don't
I wish that the grand jury wouldhave just said, You know what?
It's circumstantial, because tome, and this is how I've always
thought when I've done myinvestigation, no Evidence is
Evidence. You know, what I mean,by that? No evidence playing it.
It's no evidence to me isevidence. There's no other

(27:32):
evidence that anybody else couldhave possibly done this. Sure.
In a circumstantial case. Right.
That's what you have proved thatthere's no other option of any
but we have no other evidencesuggesting, suggesting that
anybody else would have donethis. But evidently, somebody in
the grand jury or a couple grandjury, people just said, you
know, I just don't feelcomfortable. She was bipolar,

(27:55):
you know, and it sounded likethey probably the prosecutor's
office did a good job of puttingit out all out there. Yes, there
was some mental health issues,you know, but there was also a,
b, c, d, and e. And they justthought, no, not enough. So
these are the types of casesthat really make me upset
because it's like, okay, you'vegot really good circumstantial

(28:16):
evidence, interview all thepeople that the bar, you're
going to be able to get thistimeline interview everybody
that saw him argue, intervieweveryone that saw him sitting at
the opposite end of the bar,interview the interviewer, the
interviewer, their friends,their diet, what was their
relationship? Exactly? This isthe thing that makes me mad

(28:36):
about it. One that theprosecutor just didn't have the
balls to just not even take itto the grand jury and just said,
You know what, I'm going to I'mgoing to have a jury, I'm gonna
have a jury decide this is whatwe have the system in place for
to get put it in front of thejury and let them decide. He
just didn't have or she justdidn't have the balls to go for

(28:57):
it. So he got away with it. He'snow living in Texas.
Married, married? Do we knowanything about? Oh, I don't
know. I don't know. I didn'teven want to look, I'm so
frustrated with the way that thesystem works. Because what a
disservice to her and to herfamily. And how scary is that?

(29:20):
That he's just out, getting awaywith it. Now, what's interesting
is, here we have at thebeginning of this, we're talking
about Delphi. He's cuz he'sconfessed to several people that
he killed those girls. Then wehave this situation where he
confesses to a couple of people,including his mother, who also

(29:42):
says,on recording to the 911 Caller,
my shunts my son shot, Sarah.
Now she threw in the wordaccidental, which is fine. But
let's say it was accidental.
Let's just Let's just sayThey're fighting over the gun
and it's accidental. I stillthink that there's a claim there

(30:03):
could be a claim of criminalrecklessness, we can still show
that it was an abusiverelationship. You know, there's
still things that he should havebeen held accountable for.
Mainly murder. Butexactly. It's just, it's there's
so much information is so manydetails lacking,

(30:25):
but not, but what's lacking. Imean, they, they had a
tumultuous relationship.
Probably, there's alcohol, therewas an argument, there was
pressure for him to leave hiswife, there was a deadline to
leave his wife, you'reintoxicated and you have a gun?
It's all right there. What elsedo you Well, I mean, what was
the relationship with the wife?

(30:46):
Like, what kind of personalitywas he? What kind of character
what, you know? Just, yeah, it'snot evidence. That's just,
that's just, that's just yourperception of it. You can't like
that's your perception, you caninterview 100 people. And some
of them will say, yeah, it's atotally nice guy. And other
people will be like, he's ashit. And you can't bring that

(31:07):
into court. You can't give youropinion. You can only give the
facts. And the facts are, youknow, the fact that he went
home. Yeah, you can interviewmom and say, Well, what was he
like, he's obviously sick. Hewas vomiting when the officers
got there. You know, but youcan't bring in your opinion, you
can't do the whole hearsay andeven with him, confessing to

(31:29):
other people that he did it,you're going to find some issues
with the whole hearsay that youhave to, you can only testify to
what you heard. So you'rebringing mom on the stand, you
know, and saying, What did youhear? Well, my son came home and
told me that he shot hisgirlfriend, and he accidentally
whatever she wants to testifyto. And that's strong evidence.

(31:51):
So he did it. You know, there'sno doubt. And I don't know why
maybe, you know, I've had suchgood prosecutors, in my
experience, where they, they goahead and say, We're locking him
up for murder, and we'll let thejury decide if it was maybe
voluntary manslaughter orsomething like that. This woman,
is this a closed case now? Orcan this be rebuilt? This can

(32:15):
still so that's why I'm talkingabout it. I had is why I am
freaking talking to people.
Anybody has any. There must bepeople who have information
about him. What is he goneabsolute kind of relationships
is he gone on to have, right?
And like I said, he moved toTexas. So I just want to get
this out here. It's frustrating.
You know, we can talk till we'reblue in the face about domestic

(32:37):
situations. It never ends. Wellleave leave the minute there's
any emotional physical abuse,you gotta get that out of there.
Yeah, it only progresses as agun in the house. Yeah, when
they're when the gun in thehouse, it's an ungodly statistic
that it's going to be ended upbeing used on you. I mean, it
just upped the ante so much. Sothis case is still you know,

(32:59):
it's only gone to the grandjury. So he hasn't been tried.
So if they get more information,and they get more evidence, they
can, you know, eventuallyhopefully try to arrest his ass.
So any information on this, Iurge you to call the Hamilton
County Sheriff's Office at51394664005139466400. And I will
end with this. Anybody that youcare about love friends, family,

(33:27):
you have any inkling thatthere's a domestic violence
situation going on in theirrelationship. please dig dig
deep into it. Please help them,please give them the resources,
give them you know, your advice,give them an ear, give them a
place to stay if they need toleave just don't let this
because this is exactly whathappened. So
man, I feel bad for this family.

(33:50):
Well, you know what, Chris, aplace to stay when they need to
leave it puts that person indanger too. Because just like
you said, but man, it's crazy.
That's the most dangerous time.
So if you take somebody andbecause I'm saying this from
personal experience, we had adomestic abuse, domestic abuse
situation on our street. And meand another mom. We took in the

(34:14):
kids whenever possible, we hadan open door for the kids. I
would not take in the mother.
Because I was worried that herhusband would come in after her
and it would put all of us indanger. I just told her there's
no way you have to go to a safehouse. I'll take in your kids
always. But you can't. Well,that's smart too. But when
you're looking at family, youknow mom and dad. They thought

(34:35):
something was up right like theythey didn't they noticed that.
You know, right? And that washer first instinct. She said Did
he kill her? Exactly. So likeyou said, there are a lot of
missing pieces but well, it wentfrom you know, she's wearing
long sleeve during the July 4 toat the scene. They're like he

(34:55):
killed her. So they all knewit's so frustrating.
thing? Well, it's my whole thingis like, I get it. Everyone's
got a job to do. It's the job ofthe detectives to gather as much
evidence and present it to theprosecutor, the prosecutors job
is to convict the person, right.
And they take on cases. And ofcourse, and I've talked about
this before, the prosecutor'soffice doesn't want to lose,

(35:17):
right? They don't want to lose acase. It's not good for their
career. It's not good for their,but if they lose, there's
nowhere else to go. Right.
They're off forever. They are.
And that's a really, reallyimportant. Okay, well, that's a
huge thing. Absolutely. Becausethen you can't try him again.
Can't do the whole doublejeopardy, then that's not just
about that's not just about ego.

(35:40):
Oh, I might not win the case.
It's about way more than that.
They don't win the case. Theperson is they got off scot
free. Yeah. Scott Fraser. Yeah,there's a lot of dynamics with
the prosecutor's office. I mean,it's like anything else in this
way. You got good detectives,you got good prosecutors, you've
got bad detectives, you've got,you know, horrible prosecutors

(36:01):
and blah, blah, blah. So youknow, but the upside case, but I
wanted to get it out there for acouple of reasons, obviously,
the domestic violence angle andthen talk a little bit about the
grand jury and what they'reabout and get it out there if
anybody has any information. Sothanks, everyone for listening
and we will see you next time onmur with mannina.

(36:28):
If you have a cold case you'dlike Chris to review, submitted
through our website at murderwith mannina.com and follow us
on Instagram and Facebook atmurder with mannina and Twitter
at murder W mannina. We'll beback next week with a brand new
episode of murder with mannina